View Full Version : Johns Hopkins Medical Centre - World Coronavirus infection Map by Country.
Pigmy Pony
20-05-2020, 15:41
This post is rubbish without pics! :eek::D
:lol: The swimming pool and the swim-up bar only exist in my imagination - as I said earlier, EVERYBODY LIES! Sorry about that. 'Tis quite warm though, and the beer exists (San Miguel) :)
:as I said earlier, EVERYBODY LIES!
Yes, and as I said earlier, some rather MORE THAN OTHERS! And in that respect, IMO, Blundering Boris has higher stakes than most in the 'porky pie' industry!!:ner:
Marco.
Cheers Marco, but that link took me to "confirmed cases" worldwide - not death rate (number of people who die/total population x 100).
Look at the "Global Deaths" section, on the right, and you'll see where the UK is in relation to elsewhere, not just in Europe, but the world:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/LStEig.png
As I said, never mind just Europe, outside of the US, the UK has the highest total deaths, as a result of this virus, IN THE WORLD!
And largely thanks to the glaring ineptitude and bumbling disorganisation of this Tory government. It's nothing short of deeply shocking and shameful. Yes, no-one is perfect and mistakes get made, but that doesn't excuse the massaging of figures, disinformation, hiding of facts that don't suit their agenda, etc, of our inept government, whose leader is a dim-witted, bumbling, floppy haired fool, and who's patently unfit to be PM.
And let's not also forget an anti-Scottish bigot! And yes, he's on record as proving such. That was my view of him before the last election, and his wishy-washy, indecisive, blundering antics during this pandemic have simply served to reinforce that view!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
20-05-2020, 15:59
Yes, and as I said earlier, some rather MORE than OTHERS! And in that respect, IMO, Blundering Boris has the highest stakes in the 'porky pie' industry!!:ner:
Marco.
While I agree that Boris is a master of "terminological inexactitudes", I'm not sure how this will have affected infection rates or the appalling death toll.
On the subject of porky pies - I put on one of my work t-shirts this morning, for the first time in 2 months. I looked like I was wearing a sleeping bag underneath it. A combination of boredom-eating and playing records, instead of doing star jumps in the garden. Still, I did get a bit of exercise, getting up to change records. Must be a lot worse for music streamers :eek:
Ali Tait
20-05-2020, 16:05
Where do you get your figures?
I don't look on this pandemic as a league table opportunity, to each individual/family affected by a Covid death, that would be insensitive, but your assertive post caused me to look up the current figures:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/
Far too dangerous to look at statistics as a simple tally - as I have posted previously there are far too many factors to consider to make assumptions on efficiency of any government or to make petty party political points (and no, I do not consider myself a "Tory" or for that matter a Scottish nationalist :lol:).
However the current figures do not show that we have the highest death rate in Europe.
On a different tack, the figures show that Slovakia has the lowest death rate, would I want to live there :scratch: after all in some measures it is considered one of the poorer countries in Europe.
If you actually read that link, it states the U.K. has the highest number of COVID confirmed deaths.
While I agree that Boris is a master of "terminological inexactitudes", I'm not sure how this will have affected infection rates or the appalling death toll.
I should've thought that was obvious, in terms of what's happened as a result of the ineptitude and poor decision-making, evidenced by the whole PPE debacle for the NHS, care-home shambles, etc, etc. He's the PM, so HE is responsible for the actions of all whom he leads in his party. The buck stops with HIM - simples!
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I did look at that section - it is total number of deaths not "death rate"
at present death rate in Europe, number of deaths per 100,000 of population:
Belgium 79.7
Spain 59.5
UK 53.2
Italy 53.2
And as I have said earlier, there are too many other variables to make direct comparisons - as Macca has said UK has one of the highest population densities in Europe - beaten by Gibralta
We have more than double the number of people per square mile than France for example.
If you actually read that link, it states the U.K. has the highest number of COVID confirmed deaths.
I did read that link - perhaps you should try looking at the data for "death rate" after all that is what you referred to in the post which I queried.
Ali Tait
20-05-2020, 16:15
It's not a cup competition to find out who's the best. There are various factors involved here, the idea that it can all be blamed on 'the government' is facile and simply represents a poorly-informed and somewhat distasteful attempt to make party political capital out of a tragedy that, if it was anyone's fault, it wasn't anyone in this country.
You could take into account that we have the highest population density in Europe, and that our lockdown was not as severe as some of the other countries, notably Italy. Added to which you have a different social culture that includes a different attitude to obeying the rules. If you look at world press you will also see people in other European countries blaming their governments and the EU, with similar, ideologically-inspired motivations. But some people just cannot help themselves I suppose.
I am not suggesting that the handling has been perfect and mistakes have been made. But then anyone with any real-world experience knows that mistakes get made all the time, in any field of operations. The fact is the primary objective was achieved, which was no mean feat. I cannot see any aspect of this crisis that would have been handled any differently had a different political party been in power. It's completely irrelevant to the situation.
No we don’t, Monaco has the highest density, and less of the patronising please. I never claimed to be Einstein, but I’m neither stupid nor ignorant. Any idiot can see there are loads of factors at work, but to try and claim that the govt has done reasonably well in handling all this is frankly crazy imo.
Pigmy Pony
20-05-2020, 16:18
Do we have reliable information about how other countries arrive at their figures? Could there possibly be liars in these countries? Could other factors play a part, like population size, age, and density? If someone wants to use these figures as a stick with which to batter our Westminster liars that's ok. But we at AoS are smarter than that, even me :)
It's a bit early days to be pointing fingers imo, we need to get well first.
anthonyTD
20-05-2020, 16:20
:eek::D
:lol: The swimming pool and the swim-up bar only exist in my imagination - as I said earlier, EVERYBODY LIES! Sorry about that. 'Tis quite warm though, and the beer exists (San Miguel) :)
Hi Marco,
I did look at that section - it is total number of deaths not "death rate"
at present death rate in Europe, number of deaths per 100,000 of population:
Belgium 79.7
Spain 59.5
UK 53.2
Italy 53.2
And as I have said earlier, there are too many other variables to make direct comparisons - as Macca has said UK has one of the highest population densities in Europe - beaten by Gibralta
We have more than double the number of people per square mile than France for example.
Yes, but largely because of London. Take London out of the equation (population density), and that aspect of the data looks quite different. In any case, death rate or death numbers total, it doesn't really matter - it's patently obvious that the UK hasn't fared very well out of this crisis, compared with other major European countries as a whole.
That's pretty obvious when you look at what's happened/is currently happening in those countries, compared with here, no matter which figures you analyse.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
20-05-2020, 16:23
I'm going to stop ranting on this thread now, I'm starting to sound like Boris's bosom buddy :eek: Am I allowed to say that? It's more PC than what I originally typed.
No we don’t, Monaco has the highest density, and less of the patronising please.
I know, unfortunately Martin gets like that when his political 'world view' or beliefs are criticised: opposing views are therefore always somehow less well-informed or intelligent, thus 'inferior'... :rolleyes:
Marco.
No we don’t, Monaco has the highest density, and less of the patronising please. I never claimed to be Einstein, but I’m neither stupid nor ignorant. Any idiot can see there are loads of factors at work, but to try and claim that the govt has done reasonably well in handling all this is frankly crazy imo.
Exactly!!:clap:
Marco.
Ali Tait
20-05-2020, 16:32
I think this pretty well sums up the govt’s early response to all this-
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sunday-times-report-on-coronavirus-1-6613560
I think this pretty well sums up the govt’s early response to all this-
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/sunday-times-report-on-coronavirus-1-6613560
i like the bit where they say we were never into herd imunity :stalks: im pretty sure thats a bit of a , well, ...lie
Indeed, and this pretty much sums up BJ-boy, and partly why we've grossly mishandled this pandemic:
The Sunday Times report demonstrates Boris Johnson’s failure to take Covid-19 seriously until the end of February, and points out that when China first alerted the World Health Organisation about an unusual spike in cases of pneumonia in Wuhan at the end of December the prime minister was sunning himself on a private island in the Caribbean.
He's a toffee-nosed hooray-henry, Etonian 'old boy', similar to his father, who's completely out of touch with real life/divorced from reality!:doh:
Rather amusing, in a cartoon-character kind of way, but never PM material:nono:
Next time round, we need someone leading the country who's strong-willed, totally unconcerned about being 'Mr Popular', doesn't shun the difficult decisions, and crucially, is a bit more in touch with the real world and the needs/struggles of ordinary people!
Marco.
InThe Sticks
20-05-2020, 17:26
Just a thought, but how many of the people here who are sat at their keyboards slagging off who ever in government are actually doing anything to help in the current situation? (apart from staying home).
And by that i mean volunteering to go shopping for the elderly or whatever would help someone else less fortunate in this crisis.
So, how many of you are?
And if you’re not, why not?
Count me in! Just back from doing some shopping for my dad and standing in a queue for an hour to collect his prescription from the doctor's. Will be cutting my neighbour's grass for him later too, once it cools down [utterly scorchio here], as he's unable to do it himself:)
Wonder what BJ's been up to today, aside from changing nappies?;)
Marco.
Just a thought, but how many of the people here who are sat at their keyboards slagging off who ever in government are actually doing anything to help in the current situation? (apart from staying home).
And by that i mean volunteering to go shopping for the elderly or whatever would help someone else less fortunate in this crisis.
So, how many of you are?
And if you’re not, why not? :clap:. Yes, like folk on twitter and the Gob On a Stick ( LBC ), easy to put the world to right from an armchair !
Count me in! Just back from doing some shopping for my dad and standing in a queue for an hour to collect his prescription from the doctor's. Will be cutting my neighbour's grass for him later too, once it cools down [utterly scorchio here], as he's unable to do it himself:)
Wonder what BJ's been up to today, aside from changing nappies?;)
Marco.
Well you would nt know, as you do not frequent his world :ner:. Good work this afternoon though :)
:clap:. Yes, like folk on twitter and the Gob On a Stick ( LBC ), easy to put the world to right from an armchair !
Be good if there was people to elect that would actually DO what they are paid to do, not push their ideology at any cost and keep there noses out the Trough?
”On our behalf” is something that needs to be slapped about their heads, I think they have forgot.
The Onus is on them, not the man in the street to protect our Country’s Citizens.
I know, unfortunately Martin gets like that when his political 'world view' or beliefs are criticised: opposing views are therefore always somehow less well-informed or intelligent, thus 'inferior'... :rolleyes:
Marco.
If you look up 'Patronising' in the dictionary it actually has the post above as one of the examples...:D
prestonchipfryer
20-05-2020, 19:00
Just back from doing some shopping for my dad and standing in a queue for an hour to collect his prescription from the doctor's.
Would it not be possible for the pharmacy to deliver your Dad's medicines to his home?
anthonyTD
20-05-2020, 19:02
For my part, and therefore my reasoning behind any criticism i have for the governments handling of this whole afair;I will give an example; i was speaking with a consultant recently, and when asking his opinion on the whole situation, i could tell that he was quite frustrated by the way certain aspects of this pandemic had been handled, and the actions taken in an attempt to slow the spread of the disease.
And at one point in the conversation; and half joking i stated; that the cynic in me would say that it was almost like the powers that be wanted it to get worse, by the actions [or not] that were taken earliar on, and perhaps all the way through, he didnt disagree! :rolleyes:
So, its no wonder there are so many folk thinking on similar lines, yes, its a hard job being in charge of a country, no one in their right mind would argue that point, but these people are there to do the best job they can, for the people they have been elected to serve, is that too much to ask ?
Well you would nt know, as you do not frequent his world :ner:. Good work this afternoon though :)
Cheers! As for BJ, well, he should frequent the REAL world more often, and if he'd been there at the beginning of this pandemic, and took appropriate action, instead of sunning himself in the Caribbean, then maybe less people in our country would've died from the virus - a sobering thought, and something we shouldn't really be joking about;)
Marco.
If you look up 'Patronising' in the dictionary it actually has the post above as one of the examples...:D
Ha - well I've learned it well at the feet of the master!:ner::lol:
;)
Marco.
Would it not be possible for the pharmacy to deliver your Dad's medicines to his home?
Possibly, John. However, he normally goes and collects it himself. Even it 87, he's fiercely independent and simply wouldn't think of getting stuff delivered, shopping or whatever. He asked me to collect it, as he was tired after working in the garden all day! And when I delivered it, he was lying on his sun-lounger in the back garden, sipping a glass of wine:D
Lazy bugger, lol... Seriously though, long me he continue to be like that!:)
Back of his garden (from various angles, all done and maintained by him):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/BLD5Wt.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/SvPF5L.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/yCqe9m.jpg
That pear tree produces lots of fruit, so we've always got plenty of fresh pears!:)
Below. a little chill-out area, where we often relax with few glasses of Prosecco before lunch...
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/5rNl5e.jpg
Marco.
For my part, and therefore my reasoning behind any criticism i have for the governments handling of this whole afair;I will give an example; i was speaking with a consultant recently, and when asking his opinion on the whole situation, i could tell that he was quite frustrated by the way certain aspects of this pandemic had been handled, and the actions taken in an attempt to slow the spread of the disease.
And at one point in the conversation; and half joking i stated; that the cynic in me would say that it was almost like the powers that be wanted it to get worse, by the actions [or not] that were taken earliar on, and perhaps all the way through, he didnt disagree! :rolleyes:
So, its no wonder there are so many folk thinking on similar lines, yes, its a hard job being in charge of a country, no one in their right mind would argue that point, but these people are there to do the best job they can, for the people they have been elected to serve, is that too much to ask ?
:clapclapclap:
Problem is mate, when they get into power, most don't GIVE A SHIT about the people who put them there, only on looking after No1!
Marco.
mad-moon
20-05-2020, 19:53
Look at the "Global Deaths" section, on the right, and you'll see where the UK is in relation to elsewhere, not just in Europe, but the world:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/LStEig.png
As I said, never mind just Europe, outside of the US, the UK has the highest total deaths, as a result of this virus, IN THE WORLD!
And largely thanks to the glaring ineptitude and bumbling disorganisation of this Tory government. It's nothing short of deeply shocking and shameful. Yes, no-one is perfect and mistakes get made, but that doesn't excuse the massaging of figures, disinformation, hiding of facts that don't suit their agenda, etc, of our inept government, whose leader is a dim-witted, bumbling, floppy haired fool, and who's patently unfit to be PM.
And let's not also forget an anti-Scottish bigot! And yes, he's on record as proving such. That was my view of him before the last election, and his wishy-washy, indecisive, blundering antics during this pandemic have simply served to reinforce that view!
Marco.
Yip..Boris is a cock...sending kids back to school, who'll pick up the virus and take it home to parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents...etc..etc...so he can kill even more vulnerable people off, so he doesn't have to spend any money out the coffers, looking after them..not to mention relaxing lock down far too early and leaving the UK borders wide open to every fucker and their dogs..reducing the guaranteed 80% of workers wages to 60% because the country can't afford it, forcing people back into the danger zone, then suddenly out of nowhere..600 million quid becomes available to pay for the huge fuck up the tories made with the UK care homes....he's a wanker..rant over..
Cheers! As for BJ, well, he should frequent the REAL world more often, and if he'd been there at the beginning of this pandemic, and took appropriate action, instead of sunning himself in the Caribbean, then maybe less people in our country would've died from the virus - a sobering thought, and something we shouldn't really be joking about;)
Marco. Well, thats true. Certainly no joking matter. The worst health, financial crisis since w/w2. Hope better days are ahead.
walpurgis
21-05-2020, 09:15
Wow! They've finally 'discovered' that wearing a facemask is worthwhile :rolleyes:. I've been saying that since all this kicked off.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/face-coverings-can-reduce-spread-of-coronavirus-study-shows-a4446656.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8339717/Face-masks-curb-spread-coronavirus-75-study-claims.html
I and others have also been saying that the 2.0m social distancing minimum is inadequate, but nobody wants to re-think that one.
And then there's the resurgence of infections, which is due to make itself known in about two weeks. This will be caused by the relaxation of lockdown a week or so ago, encouraging commuters and others to mingle. That will cost lives...........a lot of them!
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 09:24
Don't hold back Alan, say what you really feel! :eek::D
Yip..Boris is a cock...sending kids back to school, who'll pick up the virus and take it home to parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents...etc..etc...so he can kill even more vulnerable people off, so he doesn't have to spend any money out the coffers, looking after them..not to mention relaxing lock down far too early and leaving the UK borders wide open to every fucker and their dogs..reducing the guaranteed 80% of workers wages to 60% because the country can't afford it, forcing people back into the danger zone, then suddenly out of nowhere..600 million quid becomes available to pay for the huge fuck up the tories made with the UK care homes....he's a wanker..rant over..
Yes, but.... At the same time, we *must* start slowly and carefully getting life back to normal, and the economy moving again!:)
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 09:30
Just heard on the truth channel, [Radio 2] :eek: that the lab in Oxford, who are suposedly developing a vaccine, [seems they have managed to acheive something in 3 months, that usualy takes many years to develope] now have the ability to produce 1 billion doses, but guess where its going to be manufactured, yep, you guessed it, USA, seems like Mr Gates will have his way after-all,:scratch: i say this with the utmost sincerity, for those who have awoken, please for the sake of mankind, try your best to wake up everyone around you, before we end up going down the road of ruin with no chance of a u-turn.:doh:
Just heard on the truth channel, [Radio 2] :eek: that the lab in Oxford, who are suposedly developing a vaccine, [seems they have managed to acheive something in 3 months, that usualy takes many years to develope] now have the ability to produce 1 billion doses, but guess where its going to be manufactured, yep, you guessed it, USA, seems like Mr Gates will have his way after-all,:
It's actually a company called AstraZenica, which of course is heavily linked with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (see video below for a partial explanation), and also via the 'Access to Medicine Index 2016', which is funded by said Foundation. I'd urge people to watch this short video, outlining the history/business practices of said company:
https://youtu.be/Rpa-suDsgds
Pay particular attention [at 4.48 in the video] to the mention of 'Artificial Intelligence for healthcare', and the intended implications/purpose of that!:eek::eek:
You can see here how motivated Bill Gates is to get this done: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/What-you-need-to-know-about-the-COVID-19-vaccine
...and it's OBVIOUS why, as he stands to gain massively, financially, from having 'his' vaccine patented!!
Human Powered Crypto-mining System: https://blockchain.news/news/bill-gates-foundations-covid-19-vaccine-is-satanic-plot-says-oscar-winner
The above is also worth reading, in terms of how this new technology could be misused, and facilitated by the vaccine, for the purpose of creating the aforementioned AI for healthcare, and making people more susceptible to being controlled.
Given all of the above, would YOU trust being injected with this so-called 'vaccine' for COVID-19? Especially when there is very likely no guaranteed chance of it being effective for the purpose it's purportedly being used for, quite simply because viruses, by their very nature, are constantly evolving entities.
Me? I wouldn't touch this so-called 'vaccine' with a bargepole!!:nono:
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 10:42
There are many from the medical, and scientific world who are now coming out to explain what is happening, and what has been happening to many of us over the last 30 to 40 years, and why.
The link below, and other video's there should answer questions that many people want answers to, but cannot/will not get from the mainstream media puppets.
If your awake already, then you probably know all about what's been explained by these people, if your not, then there is still time, and if you don't care either way; then i respect your decision too, hence don't click on the link.
https://londonreal.tv/responding-to-criticism-surrounding-my-viral-documentary-the-plandemic-dr-judy-mikovits/?__s=usu6khyoukyfh347kry1&utm_source=drip&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2020-05-20+Judy+Mikovits+LIVE&utm_content=Going+LIVE%3A+Plandemic+Debunked%3F+%F 0%9F%94%A5+Dr.+Mikovits+RETURNS%C2%A0
AstraZeneca is a british/ swedish company worth over 70 billion. gates foundation invested 40 mil in it so not exactly a controlling interest
AstraZeneca is a british/ swedish company worth over 70 billion. gates foundation invested 40 mil in it so not exactly a controlling interest
That's not quite the point, mate. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation fund what's called the 'Access to Medicine Index 2016', see below for its stated purpose:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/N6oPjn.png
Taken from here: https://www.astrazeneca.com/content/dam/az/PDF/Sustainability/Access%20to%20healthcare.pdf
In terms of how "Access to Medicine Index 2016' works, you can see how Gates has the capacity to influence the promotion of AstraZenica. This is the key quote from the text I've posted a picture of above:
"Of these, AstraZeneca became the biggest riser in Access to Medicine Management, Pricing, and Patents and Licensing and also improved in Capacity Building."
Yes, all thanks to Bill Gates and his financial self-interests! Plus, other potentially far more frightening motives, as touched upon earlier... And most likely WHY this company are now the ones who are manufacturing the vaccine!!
It doesn't take a genius, mate, to join the dots and see exactly how Gates has his grubby hands all over this - and it's not for the greater good of mankind, that's for sure.
Marco.
So, any further thoughts? :popcorn:
Marco.
the UK Department for International Development do as well, as does the dutch ministry. as for AstraZenica, they fell 2 places to 9th in the list, so its not really working then. its a not for profit orginisation.. obviously the companies listed are not but money makes world go round, whether we like it or not.
You're missing the point though about Gates and his connection/motivation in all of this - it's NOT just about money! And it's working because AstraZenica are the ones who are now producing the vaccine! Nothing else is relevant.
Did you watch the short YouTube video I posted, particularly where the use of Artificial Intelligence was mentioned, designed to control people? Essentially, Gates' job is to facilitate the agenda of the global elite.
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 12:40
Every lie, leading to the confusion, and deception that we are experiencing at this time, is all fine and dandy if you happen to be one of the chosen few!
https://rense.com/general16/georgiaguidestones.htm
Interesting! I'd never heard of them before. However, aside from anything else, it outlines the basic agenda of the global elite, or if you prefer, New World Order...
So are we just going to sit back and let it happen?
Marco.
Just to show that nutjob conspiracy theories about epidemics are nothing new, here is Charles Greville writing about a cholera outbreak in 1830: 'It is remarkable that the common people at Berlin are impressed with the same strange belief that possessed those of Petersburg that they have been poisoned [...] they believe that there is no such disease, and that the deaths ascribed to that malady are produced by poison administered by the Doctors, who are bribed for that purpose; that the rich, finding the poor too numerous to be conveniently governed, have adopted this means of thinning the population [...] that the foreign Doctors are the Delegates of a central Committee, which is formed in London and directs the proceedings'.
Looking in amazement at some of the sites listed above, what seems most obvious is that the conspiracy theorists believe mutually contradictory things. For example, is Donald Trump a villain for starting lockdowns, or a hero for encouraging States to discontinue them? The 'rense' site linked by Anthony TD suggests that the Coronavirus was introduced by aliens from Venus; others that it's all part of a Dastardly Plot by Bill Gates and the NWO.
Personally, I'm not an immunologist or an expert in vaccines, but if a genuinely effective vaccine is developed (and none has been so far; all are still being trialled in different countries, and large-scale production is months away, at best), I'll have it, and take the risk of mind-control by Mr and Mrs Gates. After all, I've had the jabs for polio, diphtheria, whooping cough and TB, as well as flu jabs for the past few years, and I still don't use Microsoft products!
walpurgis
21-05-2020, 14:26
the Coronavirus was introduced by aliens from Venus
That's ridiculous. It was Mars! :)
That's ridiculous. It was Mars! :)
Uranus;)
It's the NLP they put in Mars Bars that gives them that distinctive flavour. A bit like msg in Chinese food.
Kinder Surprise come from Saturn. I think.
Personally, I'm not an immunologist or an expert in vaccines, but if a genuinely effective vaccine is developed (and none has been so far; all are still being trialled in different countries, and large-scale production is months away, at best), I'll have it, and take the risk of mind-control by Mr and Mrs Gates. After all, I've had the jabs for polio, diphtheria, whooping cough and TB, as well as flu jabs for the past few years, and I still don't use Microsoft products!
....yes, but aside from that, just LOOK how you've turned out!:D
;)
Marco [a vaccine-free zone, now and forever].
....yes, but aside from that, just LOOK how you've turned out!:D
;)
Marco [a vaccine-free zone, now and forever].
Yeah; a PhD, full head of hair, pots of money, two great hifi systems and all my own teeth (apart from one). Not bad for a working-class Scouser! Must be all those jabs I had when I was a nipper.
mad-moon
21-05-2020, 15:45
That's ridiculous. It was Mars! :)
utter tosh..it was Nestle
Yeah; a PhD, full head of hair, pots of money, two great hifi systems and all my own teeth (apart from one). Not bad for a working-class Scouser! Must be all those jabs I had when I was a nipper.
:lol::lol:
You've forgotten about your infeasibly large [but seldom used] penis. However, I realise that you're far too modest to mention it.
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 16:23
You obviously didnt watch the same link that i posted!:doh::rolleyes:
The 'rense' site linked by Anthony TD suggests that the Coronavirus was introduced by aliens from Venus;
As ever, the 'great unwashed' never cease to amaze: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/05/21/traffic-wardens-running-out-of-tickets-after-tourists-flock-to/
Aside from the obvious, in the current climate [no pun intended], who in their right mind would sit in a traffic jam for hours, sweating in a hot car, to reach somewhere that's completely overcrowded, beaches and otherwise, and where when/if you arrive, there was no-where to park and no toilets, just because the sun's out??:doh::rolleyes:
Just LOOK at the state of those sheep/lemmings stuck in huge lines of traffic, and that IDIOT sat on a Kent beach, who's back is so sunburned it looks like beetroot.... For his sake, I truly hope he doesn't develop skin cancer. But ...the overall braindead mentality witnessed there is something else!!
Marco [who spent yesterday, sipping chilled Prosecco, soaking up the rays, in the safety and comfort, peace and tranquility of his own garden, MILES from such madness].
You obviously didnt watch the same link that i posted!:doh::rolleyes:
The link that you posted was to some weird stuff about an "American Stonehenge'; but the main Rense site has lots of articles/videos about aliens, UFOs, conspiracy theories about 9/11, WW2, JKF, etc etc. I always check which site is hosting a story; you can generally get a sense of the credibility (or otherwise) of the story from that. Rense seems to be a grab-bag of nutjob gibberish. To put it politely.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 16:38
Ohh, i see, you mean the one about the guide stones, well, i didnt actualy look to see what site it came from to be honest, there were many sites that listed info about the guide stones, i just happen to pick that one, either way; it doesent make them; or the info written on them any less real!
The link that you posted was to some weird stuff about an "American Stonehenge'; but the main Rense site has lots of articles/videos about aliens, UFOs, conspiracy theories about 9/11, WW2, JKF, etc etc. I always check which site is hosting a story; you can generally get a sense of the credibility (or otherwise) of the story from that. Rense seems to be a grab-bag of nutjob gibberish. To put it politely.
walpurgis
21-05-2020, 16:39
who in their right mind would sit in a traffic jam for hours, sweating in a hot car, to get to somewhere that's completely overcrowded.
The same numbskulls that are queueing outside KFC in droves :rolleyes:.
hifi_dave
21-05-2020, 16:40
Not everyone is so fortunate. As I type this, I am looking out over a large garden, across fields to a forest 1/2 mile away. Plenty of nice walks across fields or through the forest and into a picturesque small town. However, for the majority, they have tiny gardens, with a fence all round or live in flats or apartments with no garden at all and outside there are just roads with traffic and other people.
I understand why they all flock to the seaside or beauty spots to escape the claustrophobic misery. Personally, I wouldn't because there are no loos open and half the point in going to these places is to enjoy a nice meal and a drink but that won't happen. I'd far rather be at home but for many, they would like to be anywhere else.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 16:42
Fair point Dave.
I understand why they all flock to the seaside or beauty spots to escape the claustrophobic misery.
Ohh, i see, you mean the one about the guide stones, well, i didnt actualy look to see what site it came from to be honest, there were many sites that listed info about the guide stones, i just happen to pick that one, either way; it doesent make them; or the info written on them any less real!
The stones may well be real (I've not been to Georgia recently, or at all), but it's a bit of a reach from the existence of some stones to the idea of a global elite aiming to eliminate nine-tenths of the world's population. And the theory is based on what? A book some random person read in a public library! Call me an old-fashioned pedant, but my idea of academic rigour is something a bit stronger than that.
Not everyone is so fortunate. As I type this, I am looking out over a large garden, across fields to a forest 1/2 mile away. Plenty of nice walks across fields or through the forest and into a picturesque small town. However, for the majority, they have tiny gardens, with a fence all round or live in flats or apartments with no garden at all and outside there are just roads with traffic and other people.
I understand why they all flock to the seaside or beauty spots to escape the claustrophobic misery. Personally, I wouldn't because there are no loos open and half the point in going to these places is to enjoy a nice meal and a drink but that won't happen. I'd far rather be at home but for many, they would like to be anywhere else.
Yes, BUT - only to sit in a miserably 'claustrophobic' traffic jam for hours, inside a miserably 'claustrophobic' car, and if they were VERY lucky, on a miserably 'claustrophobic' beach, jammed together like sardines, with all the other 'escapees from claustrophobic misery' - and then 'enjoy' the same on the journey home...:doh:
I wouldn't even DREAM of doing that if things were normal, never mind now, as I have a strict policy of wherever there are huge crowds and queues of people, I'm off in the opposite direction!
Let's hope that it hasn't increased the spread the virus then, eh, as long as they all feel better now?;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 16:48
Your an old-fashioned pedant! :lol:
Seriously though, the stones have been there since 1980, i came accross info on them many years ago now.
The stones may well be real (I've not been to Georgia recently, or at all), but it's a bit of a reach from the existence of some stones to the idea of a global elite aiming to eliminate nine-tenths of the world's population. And the theory is based on what? A book some random person read in a public library! Call me an old-fashioned pedant, but my idea of academic rigour is something a bit stronger than that.
Call me an old-fashioned pedant, but my idea of academic rigour is something a bit stronger than that.
He's still entitled to his opinion though, without it belittling, so kindly respect that. If you're back here just to take the piss, Joe, then feel free to piss off again - and this time make it permanent, or I can do that for you. I trust however, that you'll prove me wrong:)
Marco.
We went to the beach yesterday. Actually, we'd intended to visit the ruins of a Priory, but having walked several miles, we found they were closed. So we walked across the headland to a quiet beach, and sat down to eat our lunch and recover before heading home (no traffic jams either way). By a strange coincidence, our elder daughter and her boyfriend went to visit the same Priory yesterday afternoon, when it was still closed. They were chased by some frisky heifers, which fortunately hadn't been there when we made our visit. Today I have mostly been sat on my fat arse.
InThe Sticks
21-05-2020, 17:08
I think some people need to loosen their tin foil hats a bit as its obviously cutting off the blood supply to the brain.
RobbieGong
21-05-2020, 17:12
It's actually a company called AstraZenica, which of course is heavily linked with the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (see video below for a partial explanation), and also via the 'Access to Medicine Index 2016', which is funded by said Foundation. I'd urge people to watch this short video, outlining the history/business practices of said company:
https://youtu.be/Rpa-suDsgds
Pay particular attention [at 4.48 in the video] to the mention of 'Artificial Intelligence for healthcare', and the intended implications/purpose of that!:eek::eek:
You can see here how motivated Bill Gates is to get this done: https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/What-you-need-to-know-about-the-COVID-19-vaccine
...and it's OBVIOUS why, as he stands to gain massively, financially, from having 'his' vaccine patented!!
Human Powered Crypto-mining System: https://blockchain.news/news/bill-gates-foundations-covid-19-vaccine-is-satanic-plot-says-oscar-winner
The above is also worth reading, in terms of how this new technology could be misused, and facilitated by the vaccine, for the purpose of creating the aforementioned AI for healthcare, and making people more susceptible to being controlled.
Given all of the above, would YOU trust being injected with this so-called 'vaccine' for COVID-19? Especially when there is very likely no guaranteed chance of it being effective for the purpose it's purportedly being used for, quite simply because viruses, by their very nature, are constantly evolving entities.
Me? I wouldn't touch this so-called 'vaccine' with a bargepole!!:nono:
Marco.
Thats you and me both Markie boy, no way! not if i can help it.
Thing is whatever 'they' want us to be injected with, to fulfil their will and agenda, the scenario and 'reason' / excuse to be able to do it will have already been laid out, pretty much like what we have right now, ie: there's a disease so everyone needs to be inoculated to stop its spread blah blah, type thing !!
If you say no, the scene will have already been set to the point that the ill informed or those who are blind to the real truth of this world, will have you off as a rebel, trouble maker, conspiracist, not wanting to help stop the spread so that things can get back to 'normal' and move on in the world, for the better good.
Worse still, is if they really want to lay it on in getting the masses to confirm to what they want to implement, they'll stop you from travelling by linking this to your passport, ie: if you're 'immunised' your free to travel, if you're not then that's that, passport invalid !....
As Marco says, I would not trust any compulsory, national immunisation and any insistence by the powers, that I must and will be injected, otherwise / or else.... no way.
Something like this will happen at some point though, the mechanisms, will, desire and plan for it to be so has been going on in the back ground for years now and I believe they have no intention of not implementing this new way and order of things.
Revelation 13 is pretty much this and speaks of a time where the people will be caused to receive a mark. To add to the dilemma, you'll neither be able to buy or sell without it, which ties in with a cashless society which most people will have heard being spouted or mentioned from decades back.
The bottom line is that we are not to take that mark. We are Gods very own and not the 'property' of any other or thing, whether power, principality - whatever. Revelation makes it clear that there will be consequence for those who are deceived, seduced or succumb to taking/receiving it.
Everyone has to make there own decisions and do what sits right with them. I know what sits right with me and what i will and wont do.
Some decisions in life are not easy or comfortable ones, this type of scenario or situation would most definitely be one of those
InThe Sticks
21-05-2020, 17:16
LOL, the timing for that after my previous post was perfect.
Personally i'd not trust a word that Ben Fellows says, but thats just me.
I'd always thought that 'the mark of the beast' was barcodes, but I guess they're yesterday's thing.
Actually, the cashless society aspect is here already; I haven't used cash in a shop for several weeks now, and my wallet remains empty as I haven't needed/bothered to visit a cashpoint for some time.
anthonyTD
21-05-2020, 17:22
:)
Thats you and me both Markie boy, no way! not if i can help it.
Thing is whatever 'they' want us to be injected with, to fulfil their will and agenda, the scenario and 'reason' / excuse to be able to do it will have already been laid out, pretty much like what we have right now, ie: there's a disease so everyone needs to be inoculated to stop its spread blah blah, type thing !!
If you say no, the scene will have already been set to the point that the ill informed or those who are blind to the real truth of this world, will have you off as a rebel, trouble maker, conspiracist, not wanting to help stop the spread so that things can get back to 'normal' and move on in the world, for the better good.
Worse still, is if they really want to lay it on in getting the masses to confirm to what they want to implement, they'll stop you from travelling by linking this to your passport, ie: if you're 'immunised' your free to travel, if you're not then that's that, passport invalid !....
As Marco says, I would not trust any compulsory, national immunisation and any insistence by the powers, that I must and will be injected, otherwise / or else.... no way.
Something like this will happen at some point though, the mechanisms, will, desire and plan for it to be so has been going on in the back ground for years now and I believe they have no intention of not implementing this new way and order of things.
Revelation 13 is pretty much this and speaks of a time where the people will be caused to receive a mark. To add to the dilemma, you'll neither be able to buy or sell without it, which ties in with a cashless society which most people will have heard being spouted or mentioned from decades back.
The bottom line is that we are not to take that mark. We are Gods very own and not the 'property' of any other or thing, whether power, principality - whatever. Revelation makes it clear that there will be consequence for those who are deceived, seduced or succumb to taking/receiving it.
Everyone has to make there own decisions and do what sits right with them. I know what sits right with me and what i will and wont do.
Some decisions in life are not easy or comfortable ones, this type of scenario or situation would most definitely be one of those
I think some people need to loosen their tin foil hats a bit as its obviously cutting off the blood supply to the brain.
Unhelpful, Jon, and sorry, not something I'm willing to permit. If you dislike or disagree with a particular view on this subject, then either ignore it, or challenge it with your alternative viewpoint/take on matters. Smart-arse swipes add nothing of value to the discussion.
Therefore, any further ridiculing of people's valid views on the pandemic, or what may be behind it, simply because it doesn't appease your mindset, however 'well intended', will therefore be removed without further warning, and the perpetrator banned for a week - and that applies to EVERYONE!
Rob, great post. I'll get to it after tea!:cool:
Marco.
InThe Sticks
21-05-2020, 18:34
Ok, fair enough.
I’ll bow out of this thread then as theres no way way i can argue against this hokum without seeming to be confrontational or rude, and i’m not out to upset anyone.
However, i did send a link of the thread to two mates, one is a neurosurgeon (yup, i actually know a brain surgeon) and the other a psychiatric nurse and their responses were (to me) hilarious.
And to be honest, with all thats going on in the world, you banning me is about as far down the list of things to worry about as is possible. Only much less so.
Anyway, i’ve a slab of pork belly on the BBQ that needs attending to.
I’ll bow out of this thread then as theres no way way i can argue against this hokum without seeming to be confrontational or rude, and i’m not out to upset anyone.
That's absolutely fine. "Hokum" aside, the bit in bold is the key, so I'm glad you realise it!;) "Controversial" I care not a jot about (indeed I welcome it, even if it challenges my belief system, as I enjoy being taken out of my comfort zone and possibly learning something new), rude I do, and won't tolerate.
There's no reason why brain surgeons or nurses aren't susceptible to potential brainwashing, or inadvertently being manipulated, in order to facilitate an (as of yet undisclosed) agenda, the same as anyone else. Most of them are happy to comply with (what on the surface) seems like a reasonable instruction from their employers or superiors, and so the propensity for being fooled isn't governed by one's occupation or academic achievements.
Marco.
Offending remarks/personal insults removed as warned.
I’ll bow out of this thread then as theres no way way i can argue against this hokum without seeming to be confrontational or rude, and i’m not out to upset anyone.
What happened to your bowing out of the thread, and not being out to upset anyone, Jon? On the contrary, you seem only too happy to do that, yet don't like it when others dare answer back:rolleyes:
You can "call someone to task", as you put it, or more politely, challenge their opinion, without being rude. There is no excuse for rudeness. Play the ball, not the man.
Clearly, you're unable to help yourself or keep your promises, so enjoy your week's holiday. You can use it to decide whether in future you can conduct yourself in the manner expected of a member of AoS. I don't issue warnings on unacceptable behaviour for the good of my health!!:doh:
Marco.
i agree with helluva lot of stuff that on london real about covid have had mi suspicions all along. dr ruth wikowitz says a lot of common sense stuff that with hindsight you know is true.
Hi Rob,
Thats you and me both Markie boy, no way! not if i can help it.
Thing is whatever 'they' want us to be injected with, to fulfil their will and agenda, the scenario and 'reason' / excuse to be able to do it will have already been laid out, pretty much like what we have right now, ie: there's a disease so everyone needs to be inoculated to stop its spread blah blah, type thing !!
If you say no, the scene will have already been set to the point that the ill informed or those who are blind to the real truth of this world, will have you off as a rebel, trouble maker, conspiracist, not wanting to help stop the spread so that things can get back to 'normal' and move on in the world, for the better good.
Yup, I completely agree on the former, even if the notion is deeply unpalatable. The latter is also inevitable, as it's human nature, but hopefully *if* what we think could be happening, looks like happening, there'll be enough people by then who've 'woken up and smelled the coffee' in influential positions, and also public protests from human rights groups, etc, and/or influence from dissenting voices within Westminster, to put pressure on the government to change tact, before it's too late, and stop what we fear becoming a reality.
Returning to the former, I've yet to see any indisputable proof (figures I can believe represent fact) that COVID-19 has been *directly responsible* for having caused more deaths than annual flu (therefore in any way justifying the inoculation of the whole population, in order for life to be normal - the normal we were used to before this pandemic), and that's "directly responsible" in the sense that it was the SOLE cause of death, and not simply as having exacerbated any serious underlying health conditions in victims, resulting in their death, and which they'd likely have died from anyway.
And THAT difference/distinction is extremely important, in terms of how you subsequently analyse the situation.
So if you accept that the figures we're being given for that aren't accurate (pretty obvious for a variety of reasons if you've been closely following what's been happening), and moreover that there appears to be a desire to EXAGGERATE the amount of deaths, purported as having occurred as a *direct result* of people contracting COVID-19, then you have to ask yourself WHY - what would be the motive for doing so...?
And *if* [I'm only saying IF] what's being suggested by any of the documented 'conspiracy theories' on this pandemic is true, then there is only one logical conclusion as to what that reason would be, and that is: to CREATE FEAR, in order to control the behaviour of the population and make them do what you want them to do. And that's happening right now, as a result of this lockdown, as many are simply too afraid to go out, even under acceptable rules, for fear of becoming infected, so that much at least is beyond doubt.
So we're at the stage now where the government has begun easing the lockdown, claiming that deaths from the virus have started to fall. But how do we *actually* know that - where's the proof? Essentially, we're simply being expected to believe/swallow without question what we're being told, the same as we were when deaths *directly caused by COVID-19* were claimed as being at their highest. No-one in the mainstream public eye is challenging the data, or crucially, how the 'R' figure [rate of infection] is being calculated!:doh:
However, for the moment, while they're not in full control of matters until the British public give them that control by *ultimately* doing what they want them to do , the government MUST be seen as being reasonable and trying to protect the economy, so now with claimed falling death rates from the virus, the lockdown has been eased, but not for long!
So here's what I predict will happen in the coming weeks, and which btw I sincerely hope more than anything that I'm proven wrong about:
1) The (ridiculously conceived, poorly researched, but heavily promoted, agenda-driven) 'R' number will start to rise again, as the lockdown is eased further and more people begin mixing together again in public, and it will cause (or so they'll say it will) another 'spike' in the virus.
2) The government will then state that they tried to allow things to 'return to normal', but easing the lockdown has simply resulted in an increase of the all-important 'R' number, and so clearly until there's an effective vaccine, lockdown measures will have to be increased again, in order to protect lives and stop the NHS from becoming overwhelmed. This may or may not happen before the vaccine arrives.
3) Then will come the vaccine [rushed through, arguably not properly tested as being safe for human consumption], I guess sometime around September, having now successfully been patented by Bill Gates (so he's set to profit from it on a MASSIVE scale), and after having been deemed by the authorities as not only effective, but 'safe' [of course only by their definition of such, with goodness knows *WHAT* in it], will then be rolled out in huge numbers, with the goal of vaccinating the whole of the country's population, and touted as being the only real way out of lockdown. The vaccination process will start out as voluntary, but if not enough people come forward, it'll become mandatory, under the premise of controlling the virus, protecting the NHS and 'saving lives'.
4) Those who aren't vaccinated may have restrictions imposed on their movements (read as their FREEDOM/HUMAN RIGHTS), and their ability to travel and/or mingle freely with the rest of the population, under the premise that they could be a carrier for the virus, and steps will be taken in that respect to create some sort of 'identity passport' for travelling, possibly facilitated by smartphones.
And the next stage in the 'grand plan', if Gates gets his way further, after becoming even more obscenely rich, and what I've said comes to fruition (please God it doesn't), it will make what we've experienced so far seem like a picnic!!!
As Marco says, I would not trust any compulsory, national immunisation and any insistence by the powers, that I must and will be injected, otherwise / or else.... no way.
<snip> ...Everyone has to make there own decisions and do what sits right with them. I know what sits right with me and what i will and wont do.
Some decisions in life are not easy or comfortable ones, this type of scenario or situation would most definitely be one of those
Never mind national immunisation - GLOBAL IMMUNISATION is what Gates wants, in order to make him (and those he serves) stratospherically rich, and even more powerful!
We simply CANNOT ALLOW it to get to that stage, as any form of [B]MANDATORY VACCINATION of a [mostly healthy] population, the vast majority of whom, let's not forget, have suffered from no, or only minor ill effects from this virus, is completely IMMORAL, and therefore WRONG, and also based upon what others and I believe is a false premise.
Anyway, let's see how things pan out, and whether or not what I've predicted comes true... I can assure you, never in my whole life have I wanted to be more wrong, so I'll wear the 'straight-jacket loony award' with great pride, further down the line, if it's warranted!
Marco.
So, are you against all vaccines, on principle, or just this (so far non-existent) one? I ask because my father lost two sisters to TB in the days before the vaccine for that was developed).
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 07:57
So here's what I predict will happen in the coming weeks, and which btw I sincerely hope more than anything that I'm proven wrong about:
1) The (ridiculously conceived, poorly researched, but heavily promoted, agenda-driven) 'R' number will start to rise again, as the lockdown is eased further and more people begin mixing together again in public, and it will cause (or so they'll say it will) another 'spike' in the virus.
2) The government will then state that they tried to allow things to 'return to normal', but easing the lockdown has simply resulted in an increase of the all-important 'R' number, and so clearly until there's an effective vaccine, lockdown measures will have to be increased again, in order to protect lives and stop the NHS from becoming overwhelmed. This may or may not happen before the vaccine arrives.
3) Then will come the vaccine [rushed through, arguably not properly tested as being safe for human consumption], I guess sometime around September, having now successfully been patented by Bill Gates (so he's set to profit from it on a MASSIVE scale), and after having been deemed by the authorities as not only effective, but 'safe' [of course only by their definition of such, with goodness knows *WHAT* in it], will then be rolled out in huge numbers, with the goal of vaccinating the whole of the country's population, and touted as being the only real way out of lockdown. The vaccination process will start out as voluntary, but if not enough people come forward and volunteer, it'll become mandatory, under the premise of controlling the virus, protecting the NHS and 'saving lives'.
4) Those who aren't vaccinated may have restrictions imposed on their movements (read as their FREEDOM/HUMAN RIGHTS), and their ability to travel and/or mingle freely with the rest of the population, under the premise that they could be a carrier for the virus, and steps will be taken in that respect to create some sort of 'identity passport' for travelling, possibly facilitated by smartphones.
And the next stage in the 'grand plan', if Gates gets his way further, after becoming even more obscenely rich, and what I've said comes to fruition (please God it doesn't), it will make what we've experienced so far seem like a picnic!!!
Never mind national immunisation - GLOBAL IMMUNISATION is what Gates wants, in order to make him (and those he serves) stratospherically rich, and even more powerful!
We simply CANNOT ALLOW it to get to that stage, as any form of MANDATORY VACCINATION of a [mostly healthy] population, the vast majority of whom, let's not forget, have suffered from no, or only minor ill effects from this virus, is completely IMMORAL, and therefore WRONG, and also based upon what others and I believe is a false premise.
Anyway, let's see how things pan out, and whether or not what I've predicted comes true... I can assure you, never in my whole life have I wanted to be more wrong, so I'll very happily accept the 'straight-jacket loony award', further down the line, if it's warranted!
Marco.
Well apparently, as reported on BBC radio 4 this morning, a survey of 2500 adults (I think commissioned by Gov.), show over 50% did not believe all we are being told by Gov is true or the full truth, over have of the 50% believe it was conspiracy by the Chinese to destroy the West, and 19% thought it was initiated by the Jews(worrying). What was clear was that people were loosing trust in the government and thought there were other agendas involved. So one would assume action will be taken to turn this around?
Watch out Marco they may be on the look out for you.
Power to the people. [emoji41]
The study was reported in the Torygraph this morning:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/22/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-fifth-people-believe-virus-hoax/
'The research, led by clinical psychologists at the University of Oxford and published in the journal Psychological Medicine, indicates the number of adults in England do not agree with the scientific and governmental consensus on the Covid-19 pandemic.
It revealed that almost three fifths (59 per cent) of adults in England believe to some extent that the Government is misleading the public about the cause of the virus.
More than a fifth (21 per cent) believe the virus is a hoax, and 62 per cent agree to some extent that the virus is man-made, scientists say.'
Poor old Bill Gates doesn't even get a mention!
walpurgis
22-05-2020, 08:18
Confirms my view that the ignorance and stupidity of the public should not be underestimated. They'd still be burning 'witches' given half a chance!
Confirms my view that the ignorance and stupidity of the public should not be underestimated. They'd still be burning 'witches' given half a chance!
what, ive not to burn witches now?.... darn it!!
walpurgis
22-05-2020, 08:33
what, ive not to burn witches now?.... darn it!!
I think it's still OK north of the border. :D
I think it's still OK north of the border. :D
thats good, as im rather busy at moment :eyebrows:
https://assets.rbl.ms/22876697/origin.png
Confirms my view that the ignorance and stupidity of the public should not be underestimated. They'd still be burning 'witches' given half a chance!
Sorry, Geoff, I don't get where you're coming from. Many others and I happen to agree with the newspaper statement Joe quoted below:
The research, led by clinical psychologists at the University of Oxford and published in the journal Psychological Medicine, indicates the number of adults in England do not agree with the scientific and governmental consensus on the Covid-19 pandemic.
What's stupid about that?:scratch:
Just out my bed so I may have missed something!
Marco.
Not everyone is so fortunate. As I type this, I am looking out over a large garden, across fields to a forest 1/2 mile away. Plenty of nice walks across fields or through the forest and into a picturesque small town. However, for the majority, they have tiny gardens, with a fence all round or live in flats or apartments with no garden at all and outside there are just roads with traffic and other people.
I understand why they all flock to the seaside or beauty spots to escape the claustrophobic misery. Personally, I wouldn't because there are no loos open and half the point in going to these places is to enjoy a nice meal and a drink but that won't happen. I'd far rather be at home but for many, they would like to be anywhere else.
Or start a massive fire in wooded area with disposable barbacues - whats wrong with F******g sandwiches FFS
The “Bill Gates” mandatory vaccination theory confuses me a bit.
All the trouble and deceit to get everyone this vaccination?
In the given Scenario...
Specifically;
what’s the vaccination for?
whats it meant to do?
whats the Endgame here?
Surely must be more than mustache twirling villainy? (More money power etc)
Not going down the rabbit hole here, so unaware of any theories floating about.
My take,
The world, and Life in general really, is built on trust.
Critical thinking’s important, weigh up what your being told for yourself.
The thing is though...
Once you start seeing bogeymen around every corner it’s potentially a dark and unhappy place to go.
Facts matter. Science matters. Expertise matters.
Given all the mixed up shit you can read online - and if you don’t think about it for yourself - it’s WAY too easy to let yourself fall down the rabbit-hole.
Book plug for a terrific read that Directly addresses this:
”The Death of Expertise” by Tom Nichols
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZrSRpQg9L._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190469412/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=54355487718&dchild=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3qWJ7ZDH6QIVVOvtCh2T7wW2EAAYASAA EgLDA_D_BwE&hvadid=259053924171&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9046913&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12226125196542898656&hvtargid=kwd-323993227354&hydadcr=24429_1748939&keywords=the+death+of+expertise&qid=1590138857&sr=8-1
thoroughly recommended, especially given where we are now.
Interview with the Author.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V50HMNB4qX4
walpurgis
22-05-2020, 09:37
Sorry, Geoff, I don't get where you're coming from.
Marco.
It was a general response to the two foregoing posts.
Well apparently, as reported on BBC radio 4 this morning, a survey of 2500 adults (I think commissioned by Gov.), show over 50% did not believe all we are being told by Gov is true or the full truth, over have of the 50% believe it was conspiracy by the Chinese to destroy the West, and 19% thought it was initiated by the Jews(worrying).
More than a fifth (21 per cent) believe the virus is a hoax, and 62 per cent agree to some extent that the virus is man-made, scientists say.'!
The evidence for excess deaths seems undeniable; deaths in the UK so far this year have been tens of thousands above the average, and are only now coming down to the average for winter months (and we are almost in summer). This Guardian article spells it out:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/almost-55000-excess-uk-deaths-during-covid-19-outbreak-says-ons
'There were 49,353 excess deaths in England and Wales between the week ending 13 March and that ending 8 May, of which 37,925 were Covid-related, according to the ONS figures. That stands above the government figure, calculated differently, for the whole of the UK, which was 34,796 on Monday.'
But, in any case, the 'conspiracy' idea implies that the whole scientific and medical sectors, including several Nobel prize-winning researchers, have been conned/bribed into believing and spreading a false narrative about the virus. Why would they go along with such a scheme? It would also imply that, for example, Boris Johnson's hospital stay was part of the plan. I know several people who work in hospitals and, without exception, they believe that the virus is real, highly infectious, and very dangerous, particularly, but not exclusively, for older people and those with underlying health problems.
That's not to say that the UK's handling of the virus has been anything other than stumbling, and with a fair amount of locking stable doors after horses have bolted. But, IMO, that's down to cock-ups, lack of forward planning, and the insane 'austerity' measures over the past ten years, which has left the care sector in particular in a weakened state.
So, are you against all vaccines, on principle, or just this (so far non-existent) one? I ask because my father lost two sisters to TB in the days before the vaccine for that was developed).
Nope, not at all.
I'm all for any properly tested and effective vaccine, designed for directly treating a *specific disease*, which is 100% safe for human consumption (or as near to that as biologically possible), and which the proposed one for COVID-19 almost certainly isn't (*if* introduced for human use in the timescale being suggested), as it normally takes YEARS for such to happen, if ever - and crucially that has been created *solely* on MORAL/ETHICAL grounds (not profit or control), and therefore is for the greater good of man.
That's why the great virologist, Jonas Salk, didn't patent the vaccine he created for Polio! See here: https://slate.com/technology/2014/04/the-real-reasons-jonas-salk-didnt-patent-the-polio-vaccine.html
Those are the types of genuine people - REAL scientists who are 'in the game' for the RIGHT reasons, and to make a genuine positive contribution to society - not multi-billionaire businessmen, such as Gates, whose greatest ability is to ever-increase his personal wealth via *whatever* means possible, no matter what damage he does to others.
In that respect, you have to ask yourself, why someone like him would suddenly become *so* interested in humanitarian issues, and take such great steps to ensure that he can heavily influence not only the production of vaccines, but which company gets to produce and roll out the *ultimate* one, which when patented, will make him (and the already hugely rich pharmaceutical companies producing it) rich beyond his wildest dreams?
Ah, I hear you say, he's just a good guy who cares about people and has the money to do something about it.... BULLSHIT. That's fundamentally *not* how guys like him work! He didn't step down from Microsoft to fritter away his fortune on do-gooding, and I'm afraid anyone who thinks that is living in cloud-cuckoo land - far more so than the ones who believe in 'conspiracy theories'!
THAT is why this vaccine, if it ever sees the the light of day, and everything that surrounds it, STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN, and we must do our *UTMOST* to ensure that it doesn't end up fatally contaminating the bloodstreams of the UK population!!
Marco.
P.S Adrian, I'll get to your post after a (rather late) breakfast:cool:
It was a general response to the two foregoing posts.
Ah okies... More later - some good recent posts to get stuck into!:thumbsup:
Marco.
walpurgis
22-05-2020, 09:57
That's not to say that the UK's handling of the virus has been anything other than stumbling, and with a fair amount of locking stable doors after horses have bolted.
The forthcoming quarantining of arrivals into the UK being typical. And it's going to be 'self enforcing', as if people can be trusted to observe this. It will be abused and far too late anyway.
walpurgis
22-05-2020, 10:00
Ah okies... More later - some good recent posts to get stuck into!:thumbsup:
Marco.
My point was that some folk will believe anything, no matter how implausible. There are those out there who believe we are characters in a movie!
There's certainly nothing new about billionaires suddenly deciding to give away lots of money, especially as they reach a certain age, whether through guilt, goodwill, or simply because they have more money than anyone would ever need. Andrew Carnegie, for example, made a fortune in the US steel industry, then in later life endowed libraries and other educational initiatives in the UK and the US. The US banker, George Peabody, establishing a housing trust in London for poor people (there's still several 'Peabody Buildings' there). And the Nobel Prize was established by someone who made a fortune out of dynamite, then felt guilty about the uses to which dynamite was being put. That seems a far more likely sort of motivation than simply adding billions more to a pile of money than Gates could ever use in the life he's got left.
Believe that if you like, that's your prerogative. I choose to believe something rather different.
Here's a most apt quote from the Jonas Salk link I posted earlier:
"One critic of the big pharma called Salk “the foster parent of children around the world with no thought of the money he could make by withholding the vaccine from the children of the poor."
Indeed - and that's the very kind of PURE EVIL and GREED that drives these huge 'pharma' companies, any why Gates wants a slice of the action, and it is ultimately humanity's greatest enemy.
Right, my [much needed] cappuccino awaits!!:cool:
Marco.
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 10:21
P.S Adrian, I'll get to your post after a (rather late) breakfast:cool:
No worries mate, I thought they had been round and taken you away for questioning.[emoji23][emoji41]
Indeed - and that's the very kind of PURE EVIL and GREED that drives these huge 'pharma' companies, any why Gates wants a slice of the action, and that is ultimately humanity's greatest enemy.
Except that if one looks at the facts, rather than internet rumours, the truth is somewhat different:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/27/covid-19-fact-check-bill-melinda-gates-foundation-did-not-patent-coronavirus/2919503001/
'The Pirbright Institute is a biological research organization based in Surrey, England. The organization specializes in studying animal viruses and zoonotic diseases that transfer from animals to people. While the institute does hold a patent for a coronavirus that primarily affects chickens, it does not hold a patent on any part of the novel coronavirus causing the current COVID-19 pandemic.
"The Institute was granted a patent in 2018 which covers the development of an attenuated (weakened) form of the coronavirus that could potentially be used as a vaccine to prevent respiratory diseases in birds, including IBV, and other animals," a representative from the Pirbright Institute told USA TODAY.
"Pirbright does not hold any patents on parts of or the complete genome of the SARS-CoV-2 betacoronavirus," the institute stated.
No publicly available patents for genetic sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus have been issued anywhere in the world, and a possible vaccine isn't expected for possibly 12-18 months.'
So, there no vaccine (yet), and thus no patent for such a vaccine, and thus neither Bill Gates nor the Research Institute which he part-funds own such a patent. As another article puts it:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/04/19/bill-gates-is-now-a-target-of-covid-19-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories/#47b963ab6227
'Additionally, there are a lot easier ways to make money than selling vaccines, which have to go through extensive testing and regulatory requirements. Vaccines don’t have the profit margins of other medications such as Viagra and other lifestyle medications or lower cost items like supplements or telling people to stick various household objects in their orifices.
Keep in mind that Gates has been far from a lone voice in expressing concerns about potential pandemics and pushing for more action before this COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic. In fact, he’s simply been echoing the concerns of many, many scientists and public health officials in the infectious disease world. Everyone in this world has seen how a new microbe like a virus or even an old microbe that suddenly has gotten some more gusto can unexpectedly emerge and quickly spread. This happened during the 2002 SARS outbreak, the 2009 H1N1 flu pandemic, the 2014-2016 Ebola outbreaks, and the 2016 Zika outbreak. All of these were all basically prequels to this current pandemic. They were harbingers like the episodes of chest pain that come before the heart attack, the feelings of “hmmmm” that come before the divorce, or the new baby characters that appear on a TV series before it gets canceled.
The trouble is too few ended up heeding these warnings, and now everyone is stuck at home, hugging their toilet paper rolls as if they were gold as opposed to a little gold-colored after use. Not only that, people are actually dying each and every day that this pandemic continues. Gates was one person who actually listened to and understood the pandemic concerns being raised by real scientists. These conspiracy theories about the origin of the virus do nothing to control the pandemic. In fact, they detract from the efforts of scientists, health care professionals, and officials who are taking action against the virus. As Bruce Willis said in the movie Die Hard, “If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Quit being part of the [bleeping] problem and put the other guy back on!”'
RobbieGong
22-05-2020, 10:28
Nope, not at all.
I'm all for any properly tested and effective vaccine, designed for directly treating a *specific disease*, which is 100% safe for human consumption (or as near to that as biologically possible), and which the proposed one for COVID-19 almost certainly isn't (*if* introduced for human use in the timescale being suggested), as it normally takes YEARS for such to happen, if ever - and crucially that has been created *solely* on MORAL/ETHICAL grounds (not profit or control), and therefore is for the greater good of man.
That's why the great virologist, Jonas Salk, didn't patent the vaccine he created for Polio! See here: https://slate.com/technology/2014/04/the-real-reasons-jonas-salk-didnt-patent-the-polio-vaccine.html
Those are the types of genuine people - REAL scientists who are 'in the game' for the RIGHT reasons, and to make a genuine positive contribution to society - not multi-billionaire businessmen, such as Gates, whose greatest ability is to ever-increase his personal wealth via *whatever* means possible, no matter what damage he does to others.
In that respect, you have to ask yourself, why someone like him would suddenly become *so* interested in humanitarian issues, and take such great steps to ensure that he can heavily influence not only the production of vaccines, but which company gets to produce and roll out the *ultimate* one, which when patented, will make him rich beyond his wildest dreams?
Ah, I hear you say, he's just a good guy who cares about people and has the money to do something about it.... BULLSHIT. That's fundamentally *not* how guys like him work! He didn't step down from Microsoft to fritter away his fortune on do-gooding, and I'm afraid anyone who thinks that is living in cloud-cuckoo land - far more so than the ones who believe in 'conspiracy theories'!
THAT is why this vaccine, and everything that surrounds it, stinks to high heaven, and we must do our UTMOST to ensure that it doesn't end up fatally contaminating the bloodstreams of the UK population!!
Marco.
P.S Adrian, I'll get to your post after a (rather late) breakfast:cool:
Have to agree. To not look at such a thing, with very wide open eyes, pertaining to your life, future, health, liberty and even that of your children, and just accept whatever is propose because of the 'situation' and decide 'they have our best interests at heart' would be careless and naive to say the least.
Never forget history and what happens when certain people are determined to push through certain things - too many examples and occurrences to list History shows that all too often, the result is bad things happen and not to them, but to us, the people.
We have voice, a brain and the right to explore, investigate as well as question. To just accept what is being told and then have 'something' injected into you AND your children is reckless and dangerous in my opinion.
Never make it easy for anyone or anything to just have its way over you and your life, why would anyone do that, especially knowing history. We have no excuse.
The amount if times we've been warned, told, reminded of what we are up against in this very existence, time and dispensation, but some don't want to know or are just either too weak, naive, dismissive, happy or cosy, choosing to go along trusting and allowing the rulers of the world to just implement whatever they will and purpose :scratch:
None of this is new, Paul knew exactly what we the people were/are up against and he expressed that when writing to the church in Ephesus, after the death of Christ, 2000 or so years ago........ https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A12&version=KJV
Some eyes have always been opened, some are starting to open, some unfortunately will always remain closed, to their detriment. We should choose to never, ever be casual about our God given life, our soul, who we serve and ultimately where our eternity will lie.
We are called to be cautions and ever watchful https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+21%3A36&version=KJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+5%3A8&version=KJV
It is better to be informed than than not informed, I'd say the majority would agree, better to be forewarned than not forewarned too, at least that way you can evaluate and discern for yourself. Yet as soon as it comes to ones life, some choose to categorically disregard anything that they regard as 'heavy' or controversial which is baffling.
Guess how many times scripture, tell us to not fear ? Around 365 times, can you believe that. That for me is no mistake and clear indication of how much God is for us, to protect us and wants us to not fall victim to fear. Fear cramps, burdens, weakens, suffocates and makes us vulnerable ..... A prime tool for any enemy or one looking to deceive by presenting as one with a way of hope....
Fear is not the spirit that God gave us or put in us, the 'world' will never tell you of the spirit God placed in us, it would be like the owner training the bird how to lift the hinge from the cage door and leaving the windows open https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+1%3A7&version=KJV
There is no excuse for ignorance as God has promised that we will be informed, regardless of any schemes, trickery, deceit. Jesus made that very clear to the disciples, his friends before he left them and so we are informed too https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:26-28&version=NET
Except that if one looks at the facts, rather than internet rumours, the truth is somewhat different:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/03/27/covid-19-fact-check-bill-melinda-gates-foundation-did-not-patent-coronavirus/2919503001/
'The Pirbright Institute is a biological research organization based in Surrey, England. The organization specializes in studying animal viruses and zoonotic diseases that transfer from animals to people. While the institute does hold a patent for a coronavirus that primarily affects chickens, it does not hold a patent on any part of the novel coronavirus causing the current COVID-19 pandemic.
"The Institute was granted a patent in 2018 which covers the development of an attenuated (weakened) form of the coronavirus that could potentially be used as a vaccine to prevent respiratory diseases in birds, including IBV, and other animals," a representative from the Pirbright Institute told USA TODAY.
"Pirbright does not hold any patents on parts of or the complete genome of the SARS-CoV-2 betacoronavirus," the institute stated.
No publicly available patents for genetic sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus have been issued anywhere in the world, and a possible vaccine isn't expected for possibly 12-18 months.'
So, there no vaccine (yet), and thus no patent for such a vaccine, and thus neither Bill Gates nor the Research Institute which he part-funds own such a patent. As another article puts it:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/04/19/bill-gates-is-now-a-target-of-covid-19-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories/#47b963ab6227
'Additionally, there are a lot easier ways to make money than selling vaccines, which have to go through extensive testing and regulatory requirements. Vaccines don’t have the profit margins of other medications such as Viagra and other lifestyle medications or lower cost items like supplements or telling people to stick various household objects in their orifices.
Keep in mind that Gates has been far from a lone voice in expressing concerns about potential pandemics and pushing for more action before this COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic. In fact, he’s simply been echoing the concerns of many, many scientists and public health officials in the infectious disease world. Everyone in this world has seen how a new microbe like a virus or even an old microbe that suddenly has gotten some more gusto can unexpectedly emerge and quickly spread. This happened during the 2002 SARS outbreak, the 2009 H1N1 flu pandemic, the 2014-2016 Ebola outbreaks, and the 2016 Zika outbreak. All of these were all basically prequels to this current pandemic. They were harbingers like the episodes of chest pain that come before the heart attack, the feelings of “hmmmm” that come before the divorce, or the new baby characters that appear on a TV series before it gets canceled.
The trouble is too few ended up heeding these warnings, and now everyone is stuck at home, hugging their toilet paper rolls as if they were gold as opposed to a little gold-colored after use. Not only that, people are actually dying each and every day that this pandemic continues. Gates was one person who actually listened to and understood the pandemic concerns being raised by real scientists. These conspiracy theories about the origin of the virus do nothing to control the pandemic. In fact, they detract from the efforts of scientists, health care professionals, and officials who are taking action against the virus. As Bruce Willis said in the movie Die Hard, “If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Quit being part of the [bleeping] problem and put the other guy back on!”'
Much of what you're written there I agree with and is valid. However, when it comes to forming an opinion on the matter, which remotely qualifies as being conclusive, it depends on which "facts" you wish to believe, in order to form that opinion, and who or what created the data qualifying them as such.
In that respect, you choose yours and I'll choose mine, and ultimately what you want to believe is true!:)
Marco.
I'll go with the scientific consensus that the virus is real and very dangerous, rather than a theory which implies collusion on the part of thousands of people, including many eminent doctors and scientists, and at the cost of billions of pounds and millions of lost jobs, to enrich one person. Such a theory makes no sense.
I'll go with the scientific consensus that the virus is real and very dangerous, rather than a theory which implies collusion on the part of thousands of people, including many eminent doctors and scientists, and at the cost of billions of pounds and millions of lost jobs, to enrich one person. Such a theory makes no sense.
Yes, that's probably because that's NOT what this *could* ultimately be about. Far from it. Gates is simply a pawn, albeit, a very wealthy and influential one, for the global elite. They're the ones pulling the strings, including those of the government and everyone else they need to get what they want!
In terms of the "collusion" thing, you misunderstand and have got that all wrong. I'll explain later, as right now I'm busy:)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
22-05-2020, 11:19
Possibly, John. However, he normally goes and collects it himself. Even it 87, he's fiercely independent and simply wouldn't think of getting stuff delivered, shopping or whatever. He asked me to collect it, as he was tired after working in the garden all day! And when I delivered it, he was lying on his sun-lounger in the back garden, sipping a glass of wine:D
Lazy bugger, lol... Seriously though, long me he continue to be like that!:)
Back of his garden (from various angles, all done and maintained by him):
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/BLD5Wt.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/SvPF5L.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/yCqe9m.jpg
That pear tree produces lots of fruit, so we've always got plenty of fresh pears!:)
Below. a little chill-out area, where we often relax with few glasses of Prosecco before lunch...
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/5rNl5e.jpg
Marco.
Wow! Looks very good. Yes I understand how important independence is. My mother-in-law, who is 90 still does her own gardening and grows vegetables, etc. in her small garden and is fiercely proud of her achievements. She has been unwell and my good lady wife has been worried for her. Luckily she has been having her prescriptions delivered by one of the local pharmacies, which I knows she really appreciates. Having said that she would much rather hop on the bus, go to town and pick it up herself!
The prescription delivery drivers, as I understand, are so busy with many, many more people opting in to have home deliveries instead of queuing up but of course this is not always practicable.
:)
Of course it is desirable that people keep as active as possible and it's heartening to see such a lovely garden.
RobbieGong
22-05-2020, 11:23
That's a lovely space :thumbsup:
I'll go with the scientific consensus that the virus is real and very dangerous, rather than a theory which implies collusion on the part of thousands of people, including many eminent doctors and scientists, and at the cost of billions of pounds and millions of lost jobs, to enrich one person. Such a theory makes no sense.
Me too.
One thing you can bet the Farm on is peoples incompetence?
To think that a worldwide conspiracy involving many many Scientists, Doctors, Statisticians would work without information getting out is (to me) a crazy conspiracy theory.
Its Occam's Razor: simplest solution is probably the right one.
Though I prefer Christopher Hichen's take on it:
"the burden of proof regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it."
Chances are its probably NOT a worldwide conspiracy? But hey...it's a free country and we can believe what we want.
Good article here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4JwGwwclsXGvxl2LfQPqk58/why-do-our-brains-love-conspiracy-theories
That's me done, said my bit. :)
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 11:48
Ok let’s try and put some common sense thought into this, weather you believe in its all a conspiracy or everything we are being told by Gov is true you need to put this to one side and consider some basic facts.
Firstly we need to accept that people are dying either directly or indirectly as a result of the said Sars2-COVID19 virus. Next we need to look at some basic facts and do some simple maths IMO.
There is probably one place to go to look at deaths by countries and world that hopefully are reasonably reliable, however you have to take the premise that not all 200+ governments around the world are lying about the numbers of infections and deaths as they are all part of some global conspiracy, or that the WHO is actually in on it and manipulating the figures they report.
There are two places to look https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200521-covid-19-sitrep-122.pdf?sfvrsn=24f20e05_2 or the next, which I believe is sourced for the aforementioned
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Personally having monitored these figures from the outset I have formed the belief that some countries figure are not necessarily accurate, firstly China, the manner in which they got control and new cases stopped just not hold true if you compare with the rest of the world, so some manipulation going on there.
The UK I believe was definitely not reporting accurately early on, and was failing to identify new cases, and as we all now know is now reporting all probable deaths from covid19, including from those in care. If you look at the figures from the Office for National Stats, and compare it’s the same time last year then it is likely that the total death figure by Covid19 is still low by at least 15k.
But for argument sake I will ignore the above probability as I know some of you even think 36k is an inflated figure, I personally very much doubt this is the case. So let’s accept the current count of 36k deaths to date from Covid19 and total confirmed cases is just over 3 million is reasonably correct.
If you take these figures this means of the total infected 1.2% have died in 10 weeks, doesn’t sound much does it, but lets extrapolate simply this figure assuming repeating Covid19 spikes every 10 weeks as lock downs are relaxed and then restriction put back to get the “R” down. So ignoring any vaccine capability or suitable medical intervention to lessen mortality rate, we would see a death loss of 180 to 200k in a year, and this is with trying manage and control the infection rate.
I will briefly refer back to my simple calculation posted on this thread where I estimated without getting control we would face 250-300k deaths within 3 months, Imperial College modelling figures released recently are actually much worse and indicate 500k plus deaths without controls.
So here is the rub, taking my figures, if there are no effected vaccines or drugs developed and no long term natural immunity, then in 4 years even with strict control in places 1 to 1.2 million will have died in the UK from this disease, this is a ratio of between 1 in 55 and 1 in 67 dead due to Covid19, a stark number imo.
I would countenance great caution not taking SAR2-Covid19 seriously. It most certainly is no way comparable to a natural yearly flu epidemic. There are a number of very important and respected scientists from all around the world who have stated this. Also it is becoming clear that it is very unlikely to be the result of a naturally occurring coronavirus. The key thing to understand is that this virus is related to a group of coronavirus that are closely likened to the cause of the common cold, but it has in some way got a very aggressive form of SARs attached to it. This fact has been personally corroborated by several scientists in the world and by a friend to me directly from the drug/microbiology research and industry.
So my point is be cautious, do not underestimate this disease, and stay safe for your own sake, for those you love and other around you.
When I have time I will take all the figures for the 200+ countries and try and get a global view for you to consider.
By the way if you want to be concerned about how aspects of this may impact you apart from getting Covid19, then look at changes as to how medics evaluate individuals at triage to determine whether patients are taken to or get into a hospital. My understanding is age and other underlying medical conditions are now assessed and taken into account which may preclude an individual getting hospital treatment, when prior to Covid19 treatment in hospital would have been viewed as essential.
Me too.
One thing you can bet the Farm on is peoples incompetence?
To think that a worldwide conspiracy involving many many Scientists, Doctors, Statisticians would work without information getting out is (to me) a crazy conspiracy theory.
Indeed, and as I said to Joe, that's very likely NOT what is happening! However, information *is* getting out. Why else are we discussing it here, not to mention thousands of others doing the very same over the Internet on other similar platforms?;)
Unfortunately, I'm still too busy to answer properly, other than to flag up certain things I consider as very important, as from experience I'm all too aware of how discussions like this can quickly run away from you in your absence, if you don't keep 'poking' them where they need poked!
Until later:)
Marco.
Indeed, and as I said to Joe, that's very likely NOT what is happening! I'm still too busy to answer properly, other than to flag up certain things I consider as very important, as from experience I'm all too aware of how discussions like this can run away from you in your absence, if you don't keep 'poking' them where they need poked!;)
Until later:)
Marco.
No need mate, all good. :)
Hi Adrian,
I'm not disputing your maths, but as I said earlier, what I am disputing is the official figures quoted (and therefore yours, as they're based on them), on how many people have died *directly as a result of Covid-19*, or ULTIMATELY instead from whatever condition(s) they came into hospital suffering seriously from in the first place, some of which were underlying.
Quite simply, it is NOT a COVID-19 death statistic *if* that is not what someone ultimately has died from, i.e was the actual CAUSE of death.
It's like saying someone who comes into hospital with a serious longterm heart condition, and symptoms of COVID-19, but who subsequently dies of a HEART ATTACK, nothing else, has therefore died from COVID-19, and so goes onto the death statistics for such - and I have good reason to believe that's what has been happening!
THAT is the key point, and why unlike you, I believe that the DEATH figures in the UK and worldwide (but not CASES, which conversely I believe have been GROSSLY UNDERSTATED, simply because of an inability to measure them properly), have been DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED, in order to further an agenda (create fear in people in order to exert control), as I outlined earlier...
Particularly when I consider that the current test for COVID-19 doesn't test properly for the virus itself, but reveals other things, already naturally present in the biological makeup of some people, and which skews the results! So if the test for the virus isn't reliable, then how can any of the data relating to it be?
I know you'll disagree, and that's fine, but it's simply how I see it, based on the research I've done:)
Marco.
Well apparently, as reported on BBC radio 4 this morning, a survey of 2500 adults (I think commissioned by Gov.), show over 50% did not believe all we are being told by Gov is true or the full truth, over have of the 50% believe it was conspiracy by the Chinese to destroy the West, and 19% thought it was initiated by the Jews(worrying). What was clear was that people were loosing trust in the government and thought there were other agendas involved. So one would assume action will be taken to turn this around?
Watch out Marco they may be on the look out for you.
Power to the people. [emoji41]
Lol - indeed! They can look for me if they like. Hugely important things like this, where the lives of people and their civil liberties are at stake, need highlighting and defending. It's why (for now at least) we live in a FREE country!
As for the former, absolutely, and long may it continue (which it WILL), as it's a vital weapon in keeping the controlling excesses of our authorities in check!! It's also why some of what I've predicted probably won't happen, and which is the whole point of (and purpose) of free-thinkers, and those who value their HUMAN RIGHTS, fighting against our hugely CORRUPT system:exactly:
Without such critical intervention, all sorts of nasty stuff would've already happened, and created a rather different world to the one we know even now!
Marco.
Ok, to answer this:
I'll go with the scientific consensus that the virus is real and very dangerous, rather than a theory which implies collusion on the part of thousands of people, including many eminent doctors and scientists, and at the cost of billions of pounds and millions of lost jobs, to enrich one person. Such a theory makes no sense.
I refer to what I said earlier in reply to Jon about something similar:
There's no reason why brain surgeons or nurses aren't susceptible to potential brainwashing, *or inadvertently being manipulated, in order to facilitate an (as of yet undisclosed) agenda*, the same as anyone else. Most of them are happy to comply with (what on the surface) seems like a reasonable instruction from their employers or superiors, and so the propensity for being fooled isn't governed by one's occupation or academic achievements.
I've highlighted the key bits. Consider the last bit in bold, in particular.
It's not about the collusion of thousands of people, and them all being 'in on' a grand, devious plan. Chances are (certainly the good ones anyway) that they'll be completely unaware of what their seemingly innocuous actions *could* ultimately lead to, and *inadvertently* be creating.
As I said, if you receive what seems, on the surface, to be a perfectly reasonable instruction from your employers or superiors, you'll simply carry it out, without necessarily being aware of the potential ramifications of your actions further down the line. That's what I mean by being "inadvertently manipulated", or controlled.
You can only see what's happening/where things could be heading, and how the small things all click into place, if you have an inking of the endgame... Otherwise, why would you?
If you believe what I do (and I know you don't, but I'll explain how I see it anyway), there's essentially a 'chain of control', and in that respect, 'hierarchical pyramid' surreptitiously (the key word) controlling the world we live in, with the global elite at the top of that pyramid/chain, pulling all the strings, subsequently with their intermediaries below, going right down to simply ordinary workers at the bottom, ALL performing tasks that on the surface are seen as entirely innocent, but which *cumulatively* are helping towards creating the 'final jigsaw': the global elite ultimately getting the control and power that they desire.
And they can do that successfully when they've infiltrated enough key areas of 'the system' necessary to ensure the facilitating of their agenda, and which in careful steps [that have gradually and successfully been taken for years], their plan is slowly unfolded... And if this 'vaccine' ever sees the light of day and is rolled out to the population, as intended, then that will a *MAJOR* step in the advancement of their plan, as it will allow them to brainwash and control the world population, via the use of AI technology (my theory on that which I'll explain later), like never before!
That is why we have to stop their plan in its tracks by REFUSING ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINES for this virus. That is absolutely imperative, if we are to thwart it and PROTECT OUR FREEDOM.
Dismiss all of that, as I know you will, but I believe it essentially represents the desire of the 'powers that be', and what will eventually happen (and in time become the 'new normal') if we don't do something about it NOW...!
Marco.
If we were talking about junior doctors, maybe, but senior scientists, including Nobel Prize winners? How could they be conned into believing some false narrative on the lines you suggest?
Simply because they're human! As I said, NO-ONE, no matter how well-educated or clever, is exempt from being fooled, if the right criteria for achieving such is met.
Marco.
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 14:18
Hello Marco
Well in the great tradition of the great ship Art Of Sound I will respond in as clear and concise way as I can, or at least try to. I think that by now you know that I am one of those people that are generally driven by logical thought process and practical experience, what I mean by that is if I make a statement or take a view on something it is by looking at the facts and figures and the results/feedback that I see, I avoid at all costs taking something on face value or making an assumption, this in my view is a rocky road to making an incorrect decision or taking the wrong path.
My approach has come about from many years of development in IT and Systems testing of some rather complex systems, nothing particularly exciting in the scheme of things but involving large monetary sums and mission critical stuff, there were 2 or 3 for which if those working on it got it wrong then they would be looking for another job the next day, I was lead Test Manager on one of them. In my experience accuracy, trust, truth and honesty by all those participating in the team was paramount to succeed.
Hi Adrian,
I'm not disputing your maths, but as I said earlier, what I am disputing is the official figures quoted (and therefore yours, as they're based on them), on how many people have died *directly as a result of Covid-19*, or ULTIMATELY instead from whatever condition(s) they came into hospital suffering seriously from in the first place, some of which were underlying.
Quite simply, it is NOT a COVID-19 death statistic *if* that is not what someone ultimately has died from, i.e was the actual CAUSE of death.
It's like saying someone who comes into hospital with a serious longterm heart condition, and symptoms of COVID-19, but who subsequently dies of a HEART ATTACK, nothing else, has therefore died from COVID-19, and so goes onto the death statistics for such - and I have good reason to believe that's what has been happening!
I think I that some clarification is required here and I will site an example which I am all too well familiar with due to my own personal health issues. You are questioning the classification of deaths being due to Covid-19 as being incorrect in a large number of cases, as actually individuals died from some other cause for which they were already suffering.
I would ask you to consider this:
On my first visit to the hospital 4 years ago with serious chest pains and difficulty breathing, I was classified as suffering from Mycardial Infarction(Heart Attack), now if I had died it was very likely that written on the death certificate would have been Mycardial Infarction(Heart Attack), or it could have been Heart Failure or it could have been Death due to Cardiovascular Disease. In fact since whenever medical reports, there have been many, have been written about me for a variety of health and employment reasons the term primarily used to describe my condition is Heart Failure. So you might ask why "Heart Failure" well my Heart is Failing due to the impact of Cardiovascular Disease in the arteries in my heart.
So lets now take the next step, at present I am ticking along reasonably well, at least my heart is for now, and as long as I continue to take my daily drug cocktail and do not overdo things I should get hopefully another 10-15 years. But let is now think what happens if I contract Covid19 and I become ill enough from it to the extent that I have to be hospitalised and ultimately do not make it, whether I end up in ICU or not. I am absolutely under no illusion how it would likely pan out for me, and have in fact had it explained to me by a Cardiac consultant. The CV-19 disease would ultimately cause a severe inability for me to breath and to take on board sufficient oxygen to supply my vital organs, and brain, the first most immediate impact on my system would be to my heart. I suffer with severe angina due to two areas of my heart being permanently starved of blood/oxygen, when provoked by exercise this becomes extreme and if left unchecked will lead to yes you have guessed it Mycardial Infarction(Heart Attack). So in the case of the COVID-19 causing the impairment to my lungs it has a direct and detrimental impact on my heart, and in fact the same same result can come about by a bad dose of the flu developing into pneumonia.
So in the above what is the cause of death? I would have continued to have lived with my heart problems for another 10-15 years hopefully but covid-19 comes along and I am gone, it has effectively been the cause of my death because without out it I would have likely continued to live. Obviously there are many other medical conditions for which this is true.
A more exact and clearer classification would be Heart Attack caused by Covid-19.
THAT is the key point, and why unlike you, I believe that the DEATH figures in the UK and worldwide (but not CASES, which conversely I believe have been GROSSLY UNDERSTATED, simply because of an inability to measure them properly), have been DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED, in order to further an agenda (create fear in people in order to exert control), as I outlined earlier...
I am not sure that I understand or appreciate what evidence you have supplied to establish "DEATH figures in the UK and worldwide ......have been DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED"? I have seen a number of reports and videos that also talk about figures being exaggerated and manipulated, but I do not recall actually seeing any hard evidence for that supports this theory. I am open minded and if you can point me directly to some I would be more than willing to look at it.
Particularly when I consider that the current test for COVID-19 doesn't test properly for the virus itself, but reveals other things, already naturally present in the biological makeup of some people, and which skews the results! So if the test for the virus isn't reliable, then how can any of the data relating to it be?
Marco on what basis are you making this sweeping statement, where is there evidence that the existing COVID-19 test in general use does not test for it accurately? What other things does it revel which skews results? I would find it rather bizarre if the whole world was conducting inaccurate Covid-19 tests.
I am quite aware that the original anti-body tests were inaccurate and at one time only blood tests conducted at Porton Down could accurately determine in a person had antibodies in them have had Covid19, although it appears a new anti-body test has recently passed scrutiny/testing in the UK and is to be released shortly.
I know you'll disagree, and that's fine, but it's simply how I see it, based on the research I've done:)
Marco.
Unfortunately the Covid19 debacle is highly political and volatile episode in the worlds history, and I am sure some very sad politicians, businesses and individuals are looking at it to take advantage of. I sincerely hope that the Bill Gates stuff and the various other interested parties intentions, highlighted previously, are untrue. We all know that corruption and control exists where money and power is involved but if this really is the result of a malevolently engineered super plan by a few to control the world then we really have come to a sorry end I am afraid to say.
All the best,
Adrian
Wow! Looks very good. Yes I understand how important independence is. My mother-in-law, who is 90 still does her own gardening and grows vegetables, etc. in her small garden and is fiercely proud of her achievements. She has been unwell and my good lady wife has been worried for her. Luckily she has been having her prescriptions delivered by one of the local pharmacies, which I knows she really appreciates. Having said that she would much rather hop on the bus, go to town and pick it up herself!
The prescription delivery drivers, as I understand, are so busy with many, many more people opting in to have home deliveries instead of queuing up but of course this is not always practicable.
:)
Of course it is desirable that people keep as active as possible and it's heartening to see such a lovely garden.
Cheers mate, and respect to your mother-in-law... Long may she continue to do some damage!:D
I think it's important to remain as independent for as long as you possibly can, as it's not only good for your soul, but helps keep essential services such as you describe free for those who *really* need them:)
Marco.
Hi Adrian,
Bloody hell, mate. It would help if you were a bit more concise when quoting, and limited yourself to asking a couple of questions, and obtaining answers to those first, before asking more!:eek:;)
I've obtained my information on the subject in question from various online sources, including that relating to testing for COVID-19 from independent people and scientists who are sceptical of the efficacy of the test currently being used. Have a Google around on that basis and you'll no doubt discover the same material as I have.
There's nothing essentially wrong with your criteria for qualifying a death as having occurred from COVID-19, in relation to your heart condition, and btw I sympathise with what must be a very worrying time for you.
However, the point is that if accurate data is to be produced, in terms of death figures caused by this virus, we need to be able to *successfully differentiate* between deaths that have occurred DIRECTLY from COVID-19 (with no underlying, exacerbating health conditions present in victims), and those where the latter had a major influence on the outcome. At present, the facts in that respect are unclear.
And I don't believe we currently have the capacity in our hospitals to successfully differentiate between both, which is why the death figures in question aren't entirely reliable.
Marco.
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 18:56
Hi Adrian,
Bloody hell, mate. I'm afraid you'll need to be a bit more concise when you're quoting, limit yourself to asking a couple of questions, and obtaining answers to those first, before asking more!:eek:
I've obtained my information on the subject in question from various online sources, including that relating to testing for COVID-19 from independent people and scientists who are sceptical of the efficacy of the test currently being used. Have a Google around on that basis and you'll no doubt discover the same material as I have.
There's nothing essentially wrong with your criteria for qualifying a death as having occurred from COVID-19. However, the point is that we need to be able to *accurately differentiate* between deaths that have occurred DIRECTLY from COVID-19, and more likely as a result of an existing serious health condition. There is too much of a grey area, as your post outlines only too well.
And I don't believe we currently have the capacity to do that in our hospitals, which is why the death figures in question aren't entirely reliable.
Marco.
I have to say Marco, I am a bit disappointed you did not give me direct references to your sources rather than just referring me to a general google search where I could find any old crap.
With respect to limiting questions I will think on this and come back to you tomorrow if that is ok, as too tired tonight. Cheers
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have to say Marco, I am a bit disappointed you did not give me direct references to your sources rather than just referring me to a general google search where I could find any old crap.
Well, when you've visited as many sites as I have recently, and read so much material/watched so many videos, whilst researching the subjects in question, it's understandably difficult to remember exactly where you've been! It's no more 'sinister' than that, and I'm afraid I'm not sad enough to save links to every site I've visited:D
With respect to limiting questions I will think on this and come back to you tomorrow if that is ok, as too tired tonight. Cheers
No problem, take your time. My point was if you present someone with a barrowload of questions in one post, it makes it rather daunting to answer!:cool:
Marco.
Surely the key point is that tens of thousands more people have died in the UK than would have died in an average year. The 'new' factor is coronavirus. Countries which introduced 'track and trace' early have had fewer deaths than those such as the UK which has dragged its heels. I've not seen anything to suggest that the obvious answer (that this is a new variant virus which is particularly deadly) is not the correct one. Against this, all I've seen are unfounded assertions, based on what you've seen on some websites.
AJSki2fly
22-05-2020, 20:24
Well, when you've visited as many sites as I have recently, and read so much material/watched so many videos, whilst researching the subjects in question, it's understandably difficult to remember exactly where you've been! It's no more 'sinister' than that, and I'm afraid I'm not sad enough to save links to every site I've visited:D
No problem, take your time. My point was if you present someone with a barrowload of questions in one post, it makes it rather daunting to answer!:cool:
Marco.
Well you can find what you looked at in your history of pages visited in you web browser, so maybe if you wouldn’t mind you could find the pertinent ones and post there addresses.
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well you can find what you looked at in your history of pages visited in you web browser, so maybe if you wouldn’t mind you could find the pertinent ones and post there addresses.
Is that right, eh? Hark at her!:eek::D
Not over the course of the months I've been researching this subject, Adrian, to pick out specific sites (or remember all the YouTube videos I've watched) in reference to what we're discussing, along with everything else I've been doing. You must have more time on your hands than me!;)
Marco.
Surely the key point is that tens of thousands more people have died in the UK than would have died in an average year. The 'new' factor is coronavirus. Countries which introduced 'track and trace' early have had fewer deaths than those such as the UK which has dragged its heels. I've not seen anything to suggest that the obvious answer (that this is a new variant virus which is particularly deadly) is not the correct one. Against this, all I've seen are unfounded assertions, based on what you've seen on some websites.
"Unfounded assertions" such as?
In terms of the rest, well yes, sure... The point is the way those facts have been reported in the mainstream media and by the government, and for what purpose. No other world crisis I can think of in my lifetime has been used as a tool to potentially make fundamental and life-altering changes to our freedom and human rights.
Marco.
A learned and alternative take on the current situation, and one I'm increasingly beginning to have more sympathy with: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/05/22/leading-scientist-urges-faster-exit-from-uka-s-lockdown/
There's a source for you on another matter, Adrian. When I'm able to provide such things, I will. The key is saving the links while you remember!:)
Marco.
"Unfounded assertions" such as?
Such as Bill Gates is an evil monster?
Interesting choice of words to describe him. I guess he'll only truly deserve that title if things pan out as I've predicted, and in which case it'll no longer be "unfounded".
Marco.
Well, let me rephrase it, using your own words. You assert that 'Gates is simply a pawn, albeit, a very wealthy and influential one, for the global elite.' You state it, without qualification, as if it's a proven fact. I've seen no evidence, let alone proof, that he is any such thing.
No, that's simply my opinion based on what I've learned about him to date. I shouldn't need to qualify my posts with 'IMO' every time I'm expressing an opinion. Therefore in future, unless you see me putting 'The fact is...' on my posts, or similar, take it for granted that I'm simply expressing my opinion.
Plus, in order to prevent what is fast becoming a rather tedious circular argument, you need to wrap your head around the notion that what you consider as "evidence", in relation to what we're discussing, isn't the only version of such that's valid.
Marco.
The plural of Anectdote does not equal “Data”.
And I say again...
“The burden of proof (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)) regarding the truthfulness of a claim lies with the one who makes the claim; if this burden is not met, then the claim is unfounded, and its opponents need not argue further in order to dismiss it.”
Also,
Any Theory that can be introduced...without evidence...Can surely be dismissed without evidence?
Why choose not to be wise...I don’t get it?
Sorry Marco...
not to be a broken record here, but you keep pushing your own thoughts against other People’s opinions...and even well laid out and explained arguments, such as Adrian’s.
It’s Ok surely to agree to disagree?
Well, some people only 'see' what they want to see, and therefore are 'blind' to things clearly seen by others, who's eyes are more open...;)
Besides, dude, I thought you were out of this thread? It's about time folks here who've declared such started practicing what they preach!:ner::eyebrows:
Marco.
Sorry Marco...
not to be a broken record here, but you keep pushing your own thoughts against other People’s opinions...and even well laid out and explained arguments, such as Adrian’s.
It’s Ok surely to agree to disagree?
Yes of course, who said it wasn't?
And the bit in bold isn't what I've been doing, but rather simply defending my perfectly legitimate POV, even it it irks some people's rather fragile sensibilities!;)
I'm the one here being challenged/questioned on my (granted somewhat controversial) opinions on the subject under discussion, more than vice-versa, so how can I be the one most guilty of "pushing my own thoughts against others"?
And no, that doesn't detract from Adrian's "well laid out explained arguments", which I agree qualify as such, and btw, just to be clear, the remark about fragile sensibilities wasn't aimed at him or you. Oh, and as far as 'agreeing to disagree' goes, some others here would do well to consider adopting that policy before me!
Are you done now?:D
Marco.
Btw, Gaz, thanks for the link earlier to this BBC article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4JwGwwclsXGvxl2LfQPqk58/why-do-our-brains-love-conspiracy-theories
There are some interesting observations within on human behaviour, which I don't disagree with at all. However, as explained therein, *everyone* is predisposed towards 'loving a conspiracy theory', including those who shun them, perhaps to help deflect from their cognitive dissonance;)
So here's something else to consider...
Is a "conspiracy theory", instead of simply deriving from being facilitated by a fundamental human condition, also that which challenges the 'accepted norm', or those with an opposing view's rather stubbornly-held beliefs, inducing discomfort in them, as it conflicts with what they would instead rather believe is true?
Or the result of successfully being able to think 'outside of the box', when others are conversely trapped and held back by their insular thinking and propensity to conform to orthodoxy - or perhaps a combination of all four?
<Discuss>:)
Marco [who says: 'long live the heretics!'].
AJSki2fly
23-05-2020, 05:55
A learned and alternative take on the current situation, and one I'm increasingly beginning to have more sympathy with: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/05/22/leading-scientist-urges-faster-exit-from-uka-s-lockdown/
There's a source for you on another matter, Adrian. When I'm able to provide such things, I will. The key is saving the links while you remember!:)
Marco.
Sorry It doesn’t get much credit from me it’s speculation and a Professor stating ranges off 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 in a relatively flippant manner when talking about people dying just about says it all.
I think the last reply to it sums it up well
“What have I missed here? The article states at the outset that half of the population have already contracted the virus. That is over 30M last count. And records are showing just over 5M worldwide have caught it. Or is he just speculating half the country have caught it but just don't know about it. So how does he get to these figures to be able to "speculate"?????????????????? Just asking”
Sorry It doesn’t get much credit from me it’s speculation and a Professor stating ranges off 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 in a relatively flippant manner when talking about people dying just about says it all.
I think the last reply to it sums it up well
“What have I missed here? The article states at the outset that half of the population have already contracted the virus. That is over 30M last count. And records are showing just over 5M worldwide have caught it. Or is he just speculating half the country have caught it but just don't know about it. So how does he get to these figures to be able to "speculate"?????????????????? Just asking”
He is a she. :) Notice the last line of the article 'Whilst accepting it hard to prove on current evidence, Prof Gupta said there was a "strong possibility" the UK could return to normal without great risk.'
Problem is there is nothing like enough data to make a decision that might end up killing another 100,000 people or more so we err on the side of caution.
Some of what is said makes no sense, like this "Effectively we used to live in a state approximating lockdown 100 years ago, and that was what created the conditions for the Spanish Flu to come in and kill 50m people."
Well no. At the time of the Spanish Flu Europe was fighting the First World War. Millions of troops moving all over, from continent to continent, going home on leave and so forth. The opposite to lockdown and widely agreed to be the reason the virus spread so rapidly around the world. Many cities in America did lock down and several came out of lockdown too early and had high re-infection rates.
the article is no more than a puff piece. I'd like to see a more in depth interview with the prof where these questions could be asked and answers given with some more detail. I suspect the contradictions are the result of poor journalism rather than a Professor of Epidemiology talking rubbish. The problem is that it makes it useless as a source of information.
AJSki2fly
23-05-2020, 08:21
He is a she. :) .
the article is no more than a puff piece. I'd like to see a more in depth interview with the prof where these questions could be asked and answers given with some more detail. I suspect the contradictions are the result of poor journalism rather than a Professor of Epidemiology talking rubbish. The problem is that it makes it useless as a source of information.
Well said Martin, this why I am very careful when reading and quoting articles, unless backed up with corroborated evidence generally in public domain. Too many reporters/journalists go for sensationalism to get copy and in some cases make their own view, without due consideration as to its impact on the general public or keeping to the truth of the matter, generally known today as fake news.
Is a "conspiracy theory", instead of simply deriving from being facilitated by a fundamental human condition, also that which challenges the 'accepted norm', or those with an opposing view's rather stubbornly-held beliefs, inducing discomfort in them, as it conflicts with what they would instead rather believe is true?
Or the result of successfully being able to think 'outside of the box', when others are conversely trapped and held back by their insular thinking and propensity to conform to orthodoxy - or perhaps a combination of all four?
It's not an either/or thing, really. Clearly some events are the result of conspiracy, which may only come to light any years later. Some events are what they appear to be. The problem is that conspiracy theories generally develop when there's an absence of provable fact, with the result that individuals develop theories to suit their own prejudices/beliefs. Thus, the Great Fire of London, almost certainly the result of an accidental fire that got out of control, was at the time blamed by many on the Catholics, who were the scapegoats for anything untoward. The current pandemic is blamed by different conspiracy theorists on the Chinese, who are supposed to have developed the virus as a biological weapon; Muslims (because they are a current 'hate' group); the Jews (who have often been scapegoated in the past); and 'the global elite' (whoever they may be). Not all of those theories can be correct, and it's quite likely that none of them are, but they are attractive to different people for more or less the same reason. The reason being that it's more comforting to believe that someone, however ill-intentioned, is actually in control of what's happening, because the alternative option is a world governed by chance, in which anything can happen, and over which we have little, if any control.
The other problem with conspiracy theories is, where do you stop with 'alternative explanations'? Were the moon landings faked? Was 9/11 an 'inside job'? Is the earth flat, or hollow? Were the Pyramids built by aliens? You might say that the flatness of the earth has been comprehensively disproved by photos taken from space, but the flat-earthers will have an explanation ready: the photos were faked, for example.
The answer is to have a genuinely open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. I've found that in almost all circumstances, cock-up wins over conspiracy as the explanation.
PS It's also worth noting that scare stories around vaccines have existed ever since vaccination was invented. Because the smallpox vaccine came from a variant infection affecting cows (hence the name 'vaccine' from the Latin word for cow), there were fears that those inoculated would turn into cows.
Changing the subject slightly, is there any way Dominic Cummings can avoid resigning, having broken lockdown regulations when (supposedly) self-isolating?
depends how much dirt he has on those above i guess... we all know they do it, its just that this time he has been caught.. sure his excuses will be good enough tho
Changing the subject slightly, is there any way Dominic Cummings can avoid resigning, having broken lockdown regulations when (supposedly) self-isolating?
Talking about evidence the only evidence so far is that some bloke claims he saw him. It's not really enough is it?
Sorry It doesn’t get much credit from me it’s speculation and a Professor stating ranges off 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000 in a relatively flippant manner when talking about people dying just about says it all.
That's fine. It was more her attitude to lockdown that I was referring to, which I do have some sympathy with.
I'll get to the rest, folks, after breakfast and shopping!:cool:
Marco.
Talking about evidence the only evidence so far is that some bloke claims he saw him. It's not really enough is it?
he has admitted it
Talking about evidence the only evidence so far is that some bloke claims he saw him. It's not really enough is it?
I thought he'd admitted to doing so:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52780561
'Mr Cummings and his wife, who was also unwell, stayed at his parents' home while self-isolating.
[...]
A source close to Mr Cummings denied a breach of the coronavirus rules, saying the couple needed childcare help.
They told the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg that the couple had stayed in a separate building at the property.'
The point being that, under lockdown rules, anyone self-isolating should not leave home for any reason. Or is it one rule for 'us', another rule for 'them'?
Well said Martin, this why I am very careful when reading and quoting articles, unless backed up with corroborated evidence generally in public domain. Too many reporters/journalists go for sensationalism to get copy and in some cases make their own view, without due consideration as to its impact on the general public or keeping to the truth of the matter, generally known today as fake news.
Sure, and trust me I see where you're coming from and to an extent agree, but that's not reason enough though for me to completely dismiss it out of hand. For me, ALL reasonable opinions (based on MY definition of the word), especially those of educated and intelligent people, deserve proper *consideration* [the key word]. It's only respectful to do so.
Credible evidence, therefore, doesn't require to be peer-reviewed [double-blind tested, right up the wazoo of the finest 'white lab-coats', blah, blah, blah] in order to qualify as such. There's a danger here I feel of some only considering "credible evidence" as representing that which best appeases their belief system, or the current orthodoxy, and that is fundamentally NOT how my mind works!
It's rather more free-thinking, challenging of the status quo/accepted norm, and naturally inquisitive than that. I wonder why, historically, heretics have always been pilloried and generally given such a hard time?:hmm:
What has everyone else got to be afraid of???;)
Right - really must dash... Laters:cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
23-05-2020, 09:49
he has admitted it
He's a very naughty boy!
I thought he'd admitted to doing so:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52780561
'Mr Cummings and his wife, who was also unwell, stayed at his parents' home while self-isolating.
[...]
A source close to Mr Cummings denied a breach of the coronavirus rules, saying the couple needed childcare help.
They told the BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg that the couple had stayed in a separate building at the property.'
The point being that, under lockdown rules, anyone self-isolating should not leave home for any reason. Or is it one rule for 'us', another rule for 'them'?
Ah! fair enough then. The story I read much earlier today was just based on some bloke who reckoned he saw him.
Also every time I see the thread title I think 'It's actually Johns Hopkins .... '.
Also every time I see the thread title I think 'It's actually Johns Hopkins .... '.
Sorted now.
That's what I call quick service! Do you work for a delivery company?
Hi Adrian,
This is precisely what I was talking about earlier: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733
"In a small number of cases, it was not possible to confirm if a patient did or did not have an underlying health condition. But for those where it was, 95% were found to have serious pre-existing issues."
Also here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/tens-thousands-coronavirus-tests-have-double-counted-officials/
That is why I believe that the death figures from the virus are grossly exaggerated, or at best 'unreliable'.
Marco.
It's rather more free-thinking, challenging of the status quo/accepted norm, and naturally inquisitive than that. I wonder why, historically, heretics have always been pilloried and generally given such a hard time?:hmm:
You'd have to ask the Pope about that. The Catholic Church has always been keen on rooting out heretics.
But, seriously, some people who like to pose as heretics are just charlatans, either harmless or aiming at ripping-off people by selling phoney cures for cancer, or DVDs of their ramblings. They can however be actually dangerous when they point the finger at specific groups of people as being behind all the bad things that happen, or when they suggest that people should burn down phone masts. When reputable companies take down their material, they then whinge about being 'martyrs' and 'heretics' who are persecuted for their unorthodox beliefs.
I fully agree, but there's also the middle ground, where the truth tends to lie. I also think that some folk 'bristle' rather too easily when their deeply-ingrained beliefs/thought processes are challenged, and aren't very receptive to a questioning of the 'accepted norm'.
It's classic human nature [the reason why heretics have historically always been pilloried] - but it won't stop me from doing that (or indeed welcoming such in return), as I firmly believe that one of the best ways of TRULY learning is to be forced out of your comfort zone, and to entertain notions that aren't necessarily a 'comfortable fit' with your belief system!:)
I don't believe that anyone should ever be persecuted for having unorthodox beliefs, providing that they are legal and don't represent anyone any harm.
Marco.
Well, some people only 'see' what they want to see, and therefore are 'blind' to things clearly seen by others, who's eyes are more open...;)
Besides, dude, I thought you were out of this thread? It's about time folks here who've declared such started practicing what they preach!:ner::eyebrows:
Marco.
I reserve my right to free speech. :ner::eyebrows:
AJSki2fly
24-05-2020, 05:50
Hi Adrian,
This is precisely what I was talking about earlier: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733
"In a small number of cases, it was not possible to confirm if a patient did or did not have an underlying health condition. But for those where it was, 95% were found to have serious pre-existing issues."
Also here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/tens-thousands-coronavirus-tests-have-double-counted-officials/
That is why I believe that the death figures from the virus are grossly exaggerated, or at best 'unreliable'.
Marco.
Hi Marco
I still do not understand your point, this does not change the fact that if someone who had a underlying health condition and was living and coping perfectly well before(this is likely the majority) and then gets Covid19 and if they have an underlying health condition and die from it, then the impact of the disease Covid19 is the tipping point and why they die. They are just more susceptible to it due to their underlying health condition(s).
If you don’t think it is serious adisease have read of this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52760992 hopefully from a reasonably reliable source.
I reserve my right to free speech. :ner::eyebrows:
...and to change your mind more often than a girl! :bum::lol:
Seriously though, I'd do everything in my power to protect your right to (polite) free speech, so you'll always have it here [within reason]!
Just don't be a daftee and say you're 'out' of any thread, which you're clearly still interested in, as at some point you're guaranteed to be pulled back in again, just like Michael Corleone!:D
https://youtu.be/UneS2Uwc6xw
Marco.
Hi Adrian,
I still do not understand your point
Simply that I don't believe that the death figures for COVID-19 are accurate. Indeed I'm convinced about it. And if they're inaccurate, they're also unreliable. So it looks like it's something on which we're simply going to have to agree to disagree:)
If you don’t think it is serious adisease have read of this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52760992 hopefully from a reasonably reliable source.
I've never said that. I agree that it's a serious virus.
However, I still stand by everything I said previously, in that I fundamentally believe that the figures are being exaggerated by the government, in order to fulfil an agenda: CREATE FEAR, and use that fear to manipulate and control the population, not just in the ill, but the healthy, as is quite clearly happening now, and if it's not stopped, and we don't put an spanner in their works, things are only going to get worse..
Thanks for the link. Interesting and useful info there.
Marco.
@Marco
Sometimes I like expressing myself as a Daftee... it’s what I do. :eyebrows:
Just a minor unimportant thing, wasn’t going to mention but as you brought it up...
when I said “that’s me said my bit” - that was for that part of the discussion mate, not the entire thread?
When your told by the Guv’nor to stop contributing as he thinks your ‘coming across like a broken record”...
Instantly gone, no biggie.
Anyways, no worries Mate.
My free speech is fine as is, cheers!
All good in the hood.
:cool:
Just a minor unimportant thing, wasn’t going to mention but as you brought it up...
when I said “that’s me said my bit” - that was for that part of the discussion mate, not the entire thread?
Oooh, nice attempt at squirming out, but no cigar!:D I'll believe you, though!:eyebrows:
When your told by the Guv’nor to stop contributing as he thinks your ‘coming across like a broken record”...
Instantly gone, no biggie.
Anyways, no worries Mate.
My free speech is fine as is, cheers!
All good in the hood.
Good, good. However, when I said that, you *were* beginning to sound like a broken record, because you kept repeating essentially the same point, over and over. Like you though, what I meant was to give *that* up [sounding like a broken record], not contributing to the whole thread - after all you're the OP!:D
Enjoy yer Sunday:cool:
Marco.
AJSki2fly
24-05-2020, 11:16
Hi Adrian,
Simply that I don't believe that the death figures for COVID-19 are accurate. Indeed I'm convinced about it. And if they're inaccurate, they're also unreliable. So it looks like it's something on which we're simply going to have to agree to disagree:)
I've never said that. I agree that it's a serious virus.
However, I still stand by everything I've said on the matter, in that I fundamentally believe that the figures are being exaggerated by the government, in order to fulfil an agenda: CREATE FEAR, and use that fear to manipulate and control the population, not just in the ill, but the healthy, as is quite clearly happening now, and if it's not stopped, and we don't put an spanner in their works now, things are only going to get worse..
Thanks for the link. Interesting and useful info there.
Marco.
I am also not saying that the figures are 100% accurate but when this is over and there is time to take rational review I bet rather than an inflated death rate from COVID19 the truth will be that it is higher.
Just a simple fact that for Feb, March and April this year the registered deaths are actually I believe 50k above the average for the same period over many years past speaks volumes, and you have to remember it has been a mild winter, no serious influenza issues reported or other peaks from other diseases, with the one and only exception being COVID19. So if you can find some other possible explanation I’d like to hear about. By the way the reported COVID19 death rate to date is just over 36k, so somewhat lower than the increased amount of 50k.
With respect to the government wanting to induce fear into the masses, I think the reality is they want people to understand how serious Covid19 is and ensure that people will respect and follow guidelines about distancing and travel if and when there is increased infection rate. This is a fine balancing act IMO, FRIGHTEN people and some will panic without due care or consideration for others, toilet roll gate at the start of this being a good example, as was pasta, tinned goods and stocking up by households. Get it wrong and go they other way and you start seeing people congregating publicly on beaches, in parks, and public places in close proximity, not only endangering themselves from catching the disease but also of passing it on if they are asymptomatic. And of course worse of all is the dumb and arrogant f**kers who think is funny to go around spitting at others announcing they have covid19, especially police and ambulance crew, imo they should be arrested and dealt with severely.
I don’t think fear is the aim at all, just think about it from a common sense point, we all know that a huge number of politicians have vested interests in many businesses across many sectors. If you install fear and keep having to lock down the majority of the work force it will and is causing massive failure of business and any one involved will suffer including the aforementioned politicians. Unless you are really cynical and see this as an opportunity for the rich and powerful to make a killing taking control and buying up everything they can on the cheap and then let the rest of us pay more for it in the future, if this is the case then our capability society is at the lowest point it probably has ever been in its history, although I expect one or two historians here may point out to some earlier examples in the past.
I am also not saying that the figures are 100% accurate...
Indeed, neither am I. It's FAR, FAR worse than that!:D Basically, they've been 'doctored to buggery', for a variety of different reasons, and essentially aren't worth the paper that they're written on!!
As for the rest of your post, if I have time, I'll get to it later, as Sundays are always busy days for us! Laters:cool:
Marco.
For all the doubters of what others and I have been saying, pretty much all along, PLEASE watch this video before it is taken down by 'Big Brother', and make up on your mind afterwards on what *is* actually happening:
https://youtu.be/8eiUm-q-NqM
Shocking doesn't even touch the surface! Essentially, if we don't do something RIGHT NOW, we're all fucked.
Marco.
Indeed, neither am I. It's FAR, FAR worse than that!:D Basically, they've been 'doctored to buggery', for a variety of different reasons, and essentially aren't worth the paper that they're written on!!
For that to be the case, senior medics, scientists, statisticians by the hundreds, and junior doctors by the thousand, would need to have been conned/bribed into falsifying records and distorting statistics. I know several senior scientists, and believe me, they aren't the sort of people who could be persuaded to do such things. Many doctors and healthcare workers have died while fighting the disease; are you suggesting that they're not actually dead?
Have you watched the above video yet? If not, I suggest you do!
Plus, you obviously haven't paid much attention to what I told you yesterday about how people, no matter how well educated or intelligent, can be inadvertently manipulated and controlled - if the right criteria are met.
You really need to wrap your head around that concept, or you'll continue missing the point.
Marco.
Have you watched the above video yet? If not, I suggest you do!
Plus, you obviously haven't paid much attention to what I told you yesterday about how people, no matter how well educated or intelligent, can be inadvertently manipulated and controlled - if the right criteria is met.
Marco.
I read what you wrote, but I disagree with your premise. A senior medic, or researcher, with decades of experience dealing with viruses, could not be 'manipulated or controlled', because their knowledge of the subject is so deep. The more you know about a subject, the less easily you will be convinced by a false narrative. I suspect your knowledge of virology and immunology is about the same as mine (ie nearly zero). I suspect the same applies to the people who made the video, which I haven't watched yet, but will watch later.
That's fine, so we'll simply have to seriously agree to disagree on that one, but you're still (rather fatally) missing the point:doh:
Marco.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/lilWjw.png
Marco.
AJSki2fly
24-05-2020, 14:36
Have you watched the above video yet? If not, I suggest you do!
.......
You really need wrap your head around that concept, or you'll continue missing the point.
Marco.
I have watched video and have to say as I am open minded I do find some of what is put forward in it as rather disturbing, primarily in terms of the newly enabled powers. There are certain statements made I am not clear on, I need to review it again, and then undertake some investigation. I do note that the presenters have been termed as a delusional obsessives, whether this is to primarily discredit them or it is true I will look at further.
However if their theory of an inner circle in power which is taking direct action to change our establishment and politics without due process is true then this is a very serious and frightening. In my mind we would be facing what at best would be a modern totalitarian state ruled by a select few.
Looking at some of the stuff on their website, pre-virus their main concern was about the danger of an EU 'super-state' and also Western involvement in Syria. But what is unclear to me is who exactly constitutes this 'inner circle' or 'shadowy elite'. Maybe that's explained in the video.
I have watched video and have to say as I am open minded I do find some of what is put forward in it as rather disturbing, primarily in terms of the newly enabled powers.
There are certain statements made I am not clear on, I need to review it again, and then undertake some investigation. I do note that the presenters have been termed as a delusional obsessives, whether this is to primarily discredit them or it is true I will look at further.
Please do! And me, too. It's very, very concerning indeed.
However if their theory of an inner circle in power which is taking direct action to change our establishment and politics without due process is true then this is a very serious and frightening. In my mind we would be facing what at best would be a modern totalitarian state ruled by a select few.
It's been on the cards for years, Adrian, and make no mistake about it, that's *exactly* WHERE WE ARE HEADING: A FASCIST STATE if we don't do something about it NOW!
Now, this is VERY IMPORTANT... I would ask EVERYONE who is as shocked and concerned as I am about the contents of that video to SHARE IT with as many people as possible, on EVERY AVAILABLE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, so that as MANY people as possible can assess and digest the contents for themselves!
UK COLUMN website (should you wish to watch the above video on their dedicated platform, and also some other rather interesting and topical output):
https://www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news-archive
STAND UP NOW AND PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM and HUMAN RIGHTS, while you still can!!
Marco.
Boris leading press conference at 5pm.
Should be an interesting one...
Marco,
a link for you.
https://twitter.com/silkiecarlo/status/1264584151551918082?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1264584151551918082&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld% 2Flive%2F2020%2Fmay%2F24%2Fuk-coronavirus-live-dominic-cummings-under-intense-pressure-over-lockdown-breaches
Pierre De Grenoble
24-05-2020, 16:41
Swear I saw Billy Bluster looking for a cold store.
Boris leading press conference at 5pm.
Should be an interesting one...
Marco,
a link for you.
https://twitter.com/silkiecarlo/status/1264584151551918082?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1264584151551918082&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld% 2Flive%2F2020%2Fmay%2F24%2Fuk-coronavirus-live-dominic-cummings-under-intense-pressure-over-lockdown-breaches
Ah yes, Silke Carlo from BIG BROTHER WATCH: https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/
She always talks a lot of sense! I'd encourage people to read her various articles on protecting our CIVIL LIBERTIES and FIGHTING AGAINST A POLICE STATE on the above website.
The hypocritical actions of Cummings, who's indisputably guilty of breaking lockdown rules, despite nonsensical establishment bluster to the contrary, protecting 'one of their own' [ask yourself what would would've happened to anyone else if they'd done the same??] could ironically end up being the catalyst that thwarts the plan of this covert fascist regime, called 'The Tory Party', as their intentions to surreptitiously inflict a Police State upon us is now being discussed on mainstream social media platforms, such as Twitter!
Therefore, it's now only a matter of time before the masses WAKE UP TO REALITY, including the rest of us, who've been awake for rather longer, join together and STAND UP AGAINST this covert fascist regime and STOP THEM from achieving their goal. Folks, this really is the most important time MANKIND is facing, since we defeated the Nazis during WW2, IF WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR FREEDOM!
So do the right thing and WAKE UP everyone you know - all your friends, family members and social contacts - ANYONE you know who has so far been oblivious to this EVIL plan, and ensure that it NEVER HAPPENS, and that all those behind it who are guilty, GATES, FAUCI, THE W.H.O and AstraZenica, the 'vaccine specialists' [among MANY others], possibly also our own prime minister, are brought to justice AND MADE TO PAY FOR THEIR HEINOUS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.
Trust me, my friends, there has never been a more important time in our lives for PEOPLE POWER to triumph over TYRANNY!!
Marco.
Here are more of Silkie's erudite protestations on Twitter, which are very much worth reading: https://twitter.com/silkiecarlo/status/1264584397078114304
Marco.
But wait! Aren't Scotland's lockdown laws even tougher than England's? Is Nicola Sturgeon part of the plot, or an unwitting pawn?
The latter, as indeed I (reluctantly suspect, because I can't stand the c*nt) BJ is.
However it's yet another example (even WORSE than the Poll Tax) of how Scotland's acted as the guinea pig for 'testing out' an ENGLISH Westminster government's unjust and inhumane political policies!
And you wonder why we want independence?? !!
Marco.
The latter, as indeed I (reluctantly suspect, because I can't stand the c*nt) BJ is.
However it's yet another example (even WORSE than the Poll Tax) of how Scotland's acted as the guinea pig for 'testing out' an ENGLISH Westminster government's unjust and inhumane political policies!
And you wonder why we want independence?? !!
Marco.
But surely England's aiming to move out of lockdown sooner than Scotland (eg by re-opening primary schools). Are you saying Scotland is wrong not follow suit? As I understand it, each UK nation sets its own rules on lockdown.
Anyway, have you watched the video yet?
I'd like your views [shown near the end] specifically on the amendments, as a result of new Coronavirus Regulations, which have been carried out to the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, such as the "Power to order health measures in relation to persons"?
There's some very dangerous shit in there, which the government could easily use COVID-19 as an excuse to implement, and which would subsequently, effectively remove all of our human rights!!
Marco.
But surely England's aiming to move out of lockdown sooner than Scotland (eg by re-opening primary schools). Are you saying Scotland is wrong not follow suit? As I understand it, each UK nation sets its own rules on lockdown.
No, what I'm saying is that they're using some of the measures that they're intending on introducing in England, in Scotland first to test it and monitor the outcome.
If you watch the video, which you really need to get off your arse and do;), so that we're 'singing from the same hymn sheet', as it were, you'll see the Scottish chap with the beard (I think his name was David) discussing it near the end.
So..... Please refrain from posting on this thread again until you've watched the video! Ta:)
Marco.
In the meantime, here's another very important video to watch, which shows what they're up against in the States, and no doubt would have implications here, if FUCKERS like this are successful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDC_25jZr1E&feature=youtu.be
:doh::doh:
Marco.
No, what I'm saying is that they're using some of the measures that they're intending on introducing in England, in Scotland first to test it and monitor the outcome.
If you watch the video, which you really need to get off your arse and do;), so that we're 'singing from the same hymn sheet', as it were, you'll see the Scottish chap with the beard (I think his name was David) discussing it near the end.
So..... Please refrain from posting on this thread again until you've watched the video! Ta:)
Marco.
Well, I watched it. What it seemed to me the Scottish bloke was saying was that the SNP had, post-devolution, developed a system of government that England is now copying, which suggests that Salmond/Sturgeon must be implicated rather than innocent bystanders.
I also detected some anti-semitic nuances; eg in the defence of David Irving towards the end. Otherwise, it was confused and poorly presented, and unconvincing. But at least I watched it!
@Joe
Latest Scottish lockdown guidelines here mate.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52757732
Well, I watched it. What it seemed to me the Scottish bloke was saying was that the SNP had, post-devolution, developed a system of government that England is now copying, which suggests that Salmond/Sturgeon must be implicated rather than innocent bystanders.
I also detected some anti-semitic nuances; eg in the defence of David Irving towards the end. Otherwise, it was confused and poorly presented, and unconvincing. But at least I watched it!
Yes, but who behind the scenes might have been pulling the strings of Salmond or Sturgeon and controlling the agenda? Trust me, that happens all the time in politics (and elsewhere) and touches upon what I was discussing with you earlier, about people being surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by, let's call them, 'higher powers'.
Johnson's having his strings pulled too, by others (such as his advisors and superiors, and the 'powers that be' above them). This is no new thing in politics. All these people are simply figureheads, appointed to push through an agenda for those who ultimately are in control! That's how the system works.
Anyway, your views of the video are not unexpected, as given how accustomed I'm becoming to how your mind appears to work, I'd have been very surprised if you'd reached any other conclusion;)
Could I ask you then how "confused" you found the following:
I'd like your views [shown near the end of the video] specifically on the amendments, as a result of new Coronavirus Regulations, which have been carried out to the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, such as the "Power to order health measures in relation to persons"?
There's some very dangerous shit listed there, which the government could easily use COVID-19 as an excuse to implement, and which would subsequently, effectively remove all of our human rights!!
If you can't see that, then well, I really don't know what to say.........
Marco.
RobbieGong
24-05-2020, 20:52
Yes, but who behind the scenes might have been pulling the strings of Salmond or Sturgeon and controlling the agenda? Trust me, that happens all the time in politics (and elsewhere) and touches upon what I was discussing with you earlier, about people being surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by, let's call them, 'higher powers'.
Johnson's having his strings pulled too, by others (such as his advisors and superiors, and the 'powers that be' above them). This is no new thing in politics. All these people are simply figureheads, appointed to push through an agenda for those who ultimately are in control! That's how the system works.
Anyway, your views of the video are not unexpected, as given how accustomed I'm becoming to how your mind appears to work, I'd have been very surprised if you'd reached any other conclusion;)
Could I ask you then how "confused" you found the following:
I'd like your views [shown near the end of the video] specifically on the amendments, as a result of new Coronavirus Regulations, which have been carried out to the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, such as the "Power to order health measures in relation to persons"?
There's some very dangerous shit listed there, which the government could easily use COVID-19 as an excuse to implement, and which would subsequently, effectively remove all of our human rights!!
If you can't see that, then well, I really don't know what to say.........
Marco.
Can only agree, a lot of this is worrying, very worrying and people need to wake up, stand up, and challenge otherwise we very well could potentially be subject to who knows whatever certain powers will for us, as part of them attaining and fulfilling whatever it is they may wish.
It's like a horror movie unfolding, only we may well be living it.
Mikeandvan
24-05-2020, 21:02
Yes, but who behind the scenes might have been pulling the strings of Salmond or Sturgeon and controlling the agenda? Trust me, that happens all the time in politics (and elsewhere) and touches upon what I was discussing with you earlier, about people being surreptitiously manipulated and controlled by, let's call them, 'higher powers'.
Johnson's having his strings pulled too, by others (such as his advisors and superiors, and the 'powers that be' above them). This is no new thing in politics. All these people are simply figureheads, appointed to push through an agenda for those who ultimately are in control! That's how the system works.
Anyway, your views of the video are not unexpected, as given how accustomed I'm becoming to how your mind appears to work, I'd have been very surprised if you'd reached any other conclusion;)
Could I ask you then how "confused" you found the following:
I'd like your views [shown near the end of the video] specifically on the amendments, as a result of new Coronavirus Regulations, which have been carried out to the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, such as the "Power to order health measures in relation to persons"?
There's some very dangerous shit listed there, which the government could easily use COVID-19 as an excuse to implement, and which would subsequently, effectively remove all of our human rights!!
If you can't see that, then well, I really don't know what to say.........
Marco.
So who exactly is really in control then?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49931995282_dde896cc00.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j5jwAo)jjjjjjjuuuuu (https://flic.kr/p/2j5jwAo) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
Well, let's inject some facts into the discussion:
https://fullfact.org/online/control-of-diseases-act-coronavirus/
'A number of posts on Facebook have claimed that the laws in the UK have been changed because of Covid-19 so that you can be forcibly vaccinated and that it is an offence to ask what’s in the vaccine. A YouTube video has also made similar claims, which was shared by Katie Hopkins. The video claims that the law changed from 27 April.
“THE U.K. LAWS CHANGED YESTERDAY - 27 APRIL 2020 ALL OF OUR HUMAN RIGHTS HAVE BEEN STRIPPED AWAY.
The Control of Diseases Act changed yesterday, 27 April 2020 with immediate effect.
You WILL be forceably vaccinated Doctor patient confidentiality is no longer and you can be detained, all your belongings ceased, your family members detained. Even by asking what’s in the vaccine before having it, is classed as an offence.
IF this vaccine was safe, why would they change the laws to enforce it?”
Facebook user, 29 April 2020
“Just to let you know that the first thing that’ll strike you when you look up this act on the government website is that it says changes to legislation, and this has been updated on the 27th April 2020. So just a day or so ago. And it’s come into force on that day. So this is applicable from now.”
Youtube video, 28 April 2020
It’s not correct that the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 was amended on 27 April. It’s not true that this law says you can be forcibly vaccinated either. The 1984 law specifies that you can’t be forced to have medical treatment, which includes a vaccine, but the law does give magistrates the power to prevent the spread of the disease in other ways, like forcing people to isolate themselves.
The legislation hasn’t been changed in this way
The National Archives, which manages the online legislation database, told us that it was not true that the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 was amended on 27 April.
At the time of writing, the last time this legislation was amended was on 25 March, which happened as a result of the Coronavirus 2020 Act. This change didn’t add anything to the 1984 act but meant that a part of it would temporarily no longer apply. The part that was changed was section 46(3). Up to 25 March, local authorities were not allowed to arrange for a cremation against the wishes of the deceased. The House of Commons Library says that “Under the new powers, this would be suspended. However, the Government has stated that personal choice for body disposal will be respected as far as possible.”
The government has said it’s extremely unlikely that a deceased person’s preferences on burial would not be adhered to, and the legislation says local authorities must take the person’s wishes into account.
You cannot be forced to have a vaccination
There are a number of things the law allows to prevent the spread of a disease. Forcing people to have medical treatment is not one of them. And the law specifies that by treatment, it “includes vaccination and other prophylactic treatment”. Prophylactic means something to prevent the disease. So this law does not mean you can be forced to have a vaccination (or treatment). Lawyer, Louise Hooper of Garden Court Chambers writes in a blog post: “The Act makes explicitly clear that the power to make such regulations does not include mandatory treatment or vaccination.”
The law mentions nothing about people not being allowed to ask what’s in a vaccine. The government’s own guidelines on vaccinations more generally says individuals “must be given enough information to enable them to make a decision before they can give consent.”
So firstly, who owns [more importantly controls the agenda] of "Fullfact.org"?
I'll get to the rest later, possibly tomorrow, as I've got a few things to do.
Marco.
Fullfact is an independent registered charity:
https://fullfact.org/about/funding/
But you don't need to take their word for it; the website for the 1984 Act shows all amendments, the most recent being on 25 March:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/2020-03-25
All very dull, and nothing to get worked up about.
Jeez, Joe, are you blind?:doh:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/2020-03-25
Scroll down to Section 45G "Power to order health measures in relation to persons". Read ALL of that properly, but specifically subsection (2) (j) and (k):
(j) that P be subject to restrictions on where P goes or with whom P has contact;
(k) that P abstain from working or trading.
WOT??? COME AGAIN??:eek::eek::eek:
Do you understand what that means and its potential implications? There's a lot more stuff in there too, which is quite simply WRONG on any moral or humane grounds.
Note also that under the new amendments to the Act, a Justice of the Peace will be able to enforce the above under the full power of the Secretary of the State!!
Marco.
P.S "Fullfact.org" may be a registered charity, but you don't know who's 'at the helm', as it were, controlling the content or what their political bias is - and I notice that many of the 'facts' that they've stated have come from sources that aren't exactly completely unbiased.
Now have a look at the Government's Coronavirus Act 2020 (Schedule 21): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/schedule/21/enacted
Essentially, the WHOLE of this act represents the total removal of your civil liberties, if you're "suspected of being potentially infectious" from COVID-19.
Please read ALL of it, but pay particular attention to Part 2, Section 6, I quote:
Powers to direct or remove persons to a place suitable for screening and assessment:
6 (1) This paragraph applies if, during a transmission control period, a public health officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that a person in England is potentially infectious.
(2) The public health officer may, subject to sub-paragraph (3)—
(a) direct the person to go immediately to a place specified in the direction which is suitable for screening and assessment,
(b) remove the person to a place suitable for screening and assessment, or
(c) request a constable to remove the person to a place suitable for screening and assessment (and the constable may then do so).
(3) A public health officer may exercise the powers conferred by this paragraph in relation to a person only if the officer considers that it is necessary and proportionate to do so—
(a) in the interests of the person,
(b) for the protection of other people, or
(c) for the maintenance of public health.
(4) Where a public health officer exercises the powers conferred by this paragraph, the officer must inform that person—
(a) of the reason for directing or removing them, and
(b) that it is an offence—
(i) in a case where a person is directed, to fail without reasonable excuse to comply with the direction, or(ii)in a case where a person is removed (by the officer or by a constable), to abscond.
That's essentially North Korea!! WAVE BYE-BYE to your FREEDOM, FOLKS:wave::wave:
:acid:
Marco.
RobbieGong
24-05-2020, 22:53
Has this act gone through yet ?
If anyone is as shocked to the core by all of this as me, then please CONTACT YOUR LOCAL MP and make them aware of the information above, quite simply because the vast majority of them are likely to be completely unaware of it! It appears that it's all being 'hush-hushed', with the details party only to a select few.
That's why none it is currently being scrutinised or debated in Westminster!! So........
LET'S CREATE SOME DISSENTING VOICES IN PARLIAMENT AND FORCE THE GOVERNMENT TO MAKE A U-TURN!!!
MARCO.
Has this act gone through yet ?
Status: This is the original version (as it was originally enacted).
Well, what does "enacted" mean?;)
Marco.
MODS: Please delete my account. I joined a hifi forum. I didn’t sign up to being part of a conspiracy theory forum.
We don't delete accounts, sorry, Andy. If you don't like it, don't read it. There are plenty of other threads on the forum, on a whole variety of different subjects.
And it isn't "conspiracy theory" it's fact. READ the new laws above!
Marco.
RobbieGong
24-05-2020, 23:16
Well, what does "enacted" mean?;)
Marco.
Which normal people would see this proposed and go yeah, put it through ? Only the brainwashed and fooled who have swallowed everything being told, therefore seeing this as necessary, otherwise we are all doomed, and/or someone or something with an agenda that they absolutely want to see fulfilled and realised :rolleyes:
Jeez, Joe, are you blind?:doh:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/2020-03-25
Scroll down to Section 45G "Power to order health measures in relation to persons". Read ALL of that properly, but specifically subsection (2) (j) and (k):
'(j)that P be subject to restrictions on where P goes or with whom P has contact;
(k)that P abstain from working or trading.'
WOT??? COME AGAIN??:eek::eek::eek:
Do you understand what that means and its potential implications? There's a lot more stuff in there too, which is quite simply WRONG on any moral or humane grounds.
Note also that under the new amendments to the Act, a Justice of the Peace will be able to enforce the above under the full power of the Secretary of the State!!
Except that this section was part of the original 1984 Act (and quite possibly part of previous infectious diseases Acts that the 1984 Act replaced). It's obvious that if someone has a serious contagious disease they need to limit their contact with others and especially that they don't, for example, run a shop or restaurant where they could potentially infect hundreds of others. Hopefully they would do this voluntarily, but I can see how it might sometimes be necessary to compel them.
Here. for example, is an extract from the Public Health Act 1936:
'Person suffering from notifiable disease not to carry on occupation to danger of others
A person who, knowing that he is suffering from a notifiable disease, engages in or carries on any trade, business or occupation which he cannot engage in or carry on without risk of spreading the disease shall be liable to a fine not exceeding five pounds.'
There's also the Civil Contingencies Act from 2004 which replaced the Emergency Powers Act of 1920 (amended 1964), might be worth learning what potential powers the Government already have before getting so excited about this. We could already have a totalitarian state if that was the aim. The reason it isn't the aim would take a lengthy essay to explain which would no doubt fall on deaf ears so I'm not going to bother.
makes me think of Typhoid Mary... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
walpurgis
25-05-2020, 08:35
I wonder how popular ocean cruises will be when this is all over? Not very, I suspect. I foresee cruise ships rusting away in dockyards following the decline in business and finding willing crew could be tricky. See this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52722765
Me personally, a cruise ship is the last place on earth I'd want to be and always has been.
walpurgis
25-05-2020, 08:36
makes me think of Typhoid Mary... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
Spot on!
Except that this section was part of the original 1984 Act (and quite possibly part of previous infectious diseases Acts that the 1984 Act replaced).
Mmm... Still not convinced I'll have to look at it again in more detail.
So what about this section then (and the rest if it) from an entirely new act, introduced only this year:
Now have a look at the Government's Coronavirus Act 2020 (Schedule 21): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/schedule/21/enacted
Please read ALL of it, but pay particular attention to Part 2, Section 6, I quote:
Powers to direct or remove persons to a place suitable for screening and assessment:
6 (1) This paragraph applies if, during a transmission control period, a public health officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that a person in England is potentially infectious.
(2) The public health officer may, subject to sub-paragraph (3)—
(a) direct the person to go immediately to a place specified in the direction which is suitable for screening and assessment,
(b) remove the person to a place suitable for screening and assessment, or
(c) request a constable to remove the person to a place suitable for screening and assessment (and the constable may then do so).
(3) A public health officer may exercise the powers conferred by this paragraph in relation to a person only if the officer considers that it is necessary and proportionate to do so—
(a) in the interests of the person,
(b) for the protection of other people, or
(c) for the maintenance of public health.
(4) Where a public health officer exercises the powers conferred by this paragraph, the officer must inform that person—
(a) of the reason for directing or removing them, and
(b) that it is an offence—
(i) in a case where a person is directed, to fail without reasonable excuse to comply with the direction, or(ii)in a case where a person is removed (by the officer or by a constable), to abscond.
Sounds pretty much to me like a police state, with COVID-19 now being used as an excuse to implement fascism! And how will an appointed "heath officer" (you've just got to love the choice of language, as it's *pure* NLP) judge if you're considered as "potentially infectious" - based on what criteria? A cough or a 'funny look'??
Marco.
There's also the Civil Contingencies Act from 2004 which replaced the Emergency Powers Act of 1920 (amended 1964), might be worth learning what potential powers the Government already have before getting so excited about this. We could already have a totalitarian state if that was the aim. The reason it isn't the aim would take a lengthy essay to explain which would no doubt fall on deaf ears so I'm not going to bother.
Yes, no doubt because they've never had an opportunity before to lockdown the whole bloody country and effectively put us all under house arrest, so that they can actually IMPLEMENT some of those powers in earnest!! Had you thought of that?
The difference now is that, BY LAW, they can use COVID-19 as an excuse to justify all sorts of controlling shit!! So in that respect, we're in entirely new territory. "Unprecedented times" indeed!
Marco.
Mikeandvan
25-05-2020, 10:28
Now have a look at the Government's Coronavirus Act 2020 (Schedule 21): http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/7/schedule/21/enacted
Essentially, the WHOLE of this act represents the total removal of your civil liberties, if you're "suspected of being potentially infectious" from COVID-19.
Please read ALL of it, but pay particular attention to Part 2, Section 6, I quote:
That's essentially North Korea!! WAVE BYE-BYE to your FREEDOM, FOLKS:wave::wave:
:acid:
Marco.
Does this mean we'll all have to wear those chairman Mao jackets? I quite like those.
Yesh, I've ordered one in your size - 46 short, wasn't it?
Marco.
Yes, no doubt because they've never had an opportunity before to lockdown the whole bloody country and effectively put us all under house arrest, so that they can actually IMPLEMENT some of those powers in earnest!! Had you thought of that?
The difference now is that, BY LAW, they can use COVID-19 as an excuse to justify all sorts of controlling shit!! So in that respect, we're in entirely new territory. "Unprecedented times" indeed!
Marco.
Actually there's been quite a few uses of The Emergency Powers Act over the years. In WW2 it was massively implemented, the government could intern you, confiscate your property, confine you to house arrest, all sorts of draconian powers that were implemented many times. Funnily enough after the War ended they didn't carry on with it and rights were restored. It did not require protests or campaigns or anything like that, it was just ended as no longer necessary.
WW2 aside situations where it has been necessary to deploy such powers have been brief and rare. Fortunately in this country we have a system of checks and balances which prevents misuse of such powers, a system developed over a thousand years. The real problem I think is people who do not understand and appreciate this, who do not realise how fortunate they are to have been born British citizens and to be able to live their lives in a country where their rights as individuals are both cherished and protected by the institutions of the State.
Well, at least during WW2 there was freedom of movement, the economy still functioned and wasn't being systematically destroyed, unlike now.... The key point being that back then the WHOLE WORLD wasn't LOCKED DOWN.
As I've said, I do hope (beyond all hope) that you're right, because if others and I am, God help us all!
As a matter of interest, what's your view on any vaccine created becoming mandatory, with penalties applied for non-compliance, should that occur? Do you think such measures could ever be justified, on human rights grounds alone, and to control a virus that has a death rate of around 0.3%?
Marco.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-beach-wales-thought-england-18306085
I think her last statement from her foul mouth is really one of the issues we have in this country.. The I can do what I want attitude and f everyone else
Arguably the scarier thing is her embarrassing ignorance of geography! Thick bint.
And they want to close all our schools?:doh:
Plus, did you hear the accent? Sounds like she's driven up from Brum for the 'pleasure'? A complete absence of functioning neurones...
Marco.
walpurgis
25-05-2020, 11:33
I think her last statement from her foul mouth is really one of the issues we have in this country.. The I can do what I want attitude and f everyone else
Far be it from me to call her an ignorant slapper (even if she is one :).
Would you like her phone number? I know you have a bit of a 'thing' for ignorant slappers...:eyebrows:
Apparently her wardrobe contains quite an array of tracksuits.
Marco.
Well, at least during WW2 there was freedom of movement, the economy still functioned and wasn't being systematically destroyed, unlike now.... The key point being that back then the WHOLE WORLD wasn't LOCKED DOWN.
As I've said, I do hope (beyond all hope) that you're right, because if others and I am, God help us all!
As a matter of interest, what's your view on any vaccine created becoming mandatory, with penalties applied for non-compliance, should that occur? Do you think such measures could ever be justified, on human rights grounds alone, and to control a virus that has a death rate of around 0.3%?
Marco.
Well the economy didn't function, it was given over entirely to war production all paid for with money borrowed from the Yanks. In economic terms C-19 is nothing compared to the economic demolition that a major war creates. WW2 bankrupted this country. We only finished paying the debt off in 2004.
I don't think having the vaccine will be made mandatory in law, no. Could that be justified? Well possibly, but I agree that although the virus is potentially deadly I agree it isn't deadly enough to warrant such an extreme measure. I would be happy to have it voluntarily, I suspect that applies to at least 90% of people. So herd immunity would be created and the minority who refuse to have it would not be sufficient to overwhelm the health service unless they all caught it at once.
So I don't see the need for a mandatory vaccination program. You may find that some employers will insist on staff having it before they can return to work though.
prestonchipfryer
25-05-2020, 12:06
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-beach-wales-thought-england-18306085
I think her last statement from her foul mouth is really one of the issues we have in this country.. The I can do what I want attitude and f everyone else
Thick(er) than pig shit.
Well the economy didn't function...
Not very well, no, but people still worked and were able to earn a living and companies were trading. Unlike now, with people living on government handouts because they can't work, whilst under house arrest, and most businesses closed. That was my point.
I don't think having the vaccine will be made mandatory in law, no. Could that be justified? Well possibly, but I agree that although the virus is potentially deadly I agree it isn't deadly enough to warrant such an extreme measure. I would be happy to have it voluntarily, I suspect that applies to at least 90% of people. So herd immunity would be created and the minority who refuse to have it would not be sufficient to overwhelm the health service unless they all caught it at once.
So I don't see the need for a mandatory vaccination program. You may find that some employers will insist on staff having it before they can return to work though.
Ok, fair enough. I hope you're right. Good luck in taking that poison though, if it happens, and may your God go with you.....
Marco.
And now for this...
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/qkIkqi.png
Led by Donkeys indeed! Dontcha just lurve these guys?:lol:
It should be "STAY ALERT - GOVERNMENT HYPOCRISY - COSTS LIVES", though!
Marco.
Not very well, no, but people still worked and were able to earn a living and companies were trading. Unlike now, with people living on government handouts because they can't work, whilst under house arrest, and most businesses closed. That was my point.
Of the businesses I work with (several hundred) only about 10 percent stopped trading completely and all of those are now up and running again to some extent. It's not true to say that there has been absolutely no wealth-creating economic activity during this lockdown, wheras that was pretty much the case in WW2.
As a matter of interest, what's your view on any vaccine created becoming mandatory, with penalties applied for non-compliance, should that occur? Do you think such measures could ever be justified, on human rights grounds alone, and to control a virus that has a death rate of around 0.3%?
Marco.
Where did that figure come from?
Based on some figures a scientist had worked out. It was on a video I watched. Will see if I can find it:)
Marco.
Of the businesses I work with (several hundred) only about 10 percent stopped trading completely and all of those are now up and running again to some extent. It's not true to say that there has been absolutely no wealth-creating economic activity during this lockdown, wheras that was pretty much the case in WW2.
Yes, but that's only the ones you deal with, which I suspect will mostly be large businesses.
What about the hospitality (or airline industry), and most importantly all the thousands of small businesses (pub and restaurant owners, food shops, gift shops, hairdressers, coffee shops, sports arenas, etc, etc) that haven't been trading for nearly two months! Will they ever get the chance to do so again - and if so, under what kind of draconian restrictions, imposed in the name of 'controlling the virus and saving lives'?
In terms of your last sentence, I agree, but that's not what I was saying.
Marco.
Yes, but that's only the ones you know, which I suspect will mostly be large businesses.
What about the hospitality (or airline industry), and most importantly all the thousands of small businesses (pub and restaurant owners, gift shops, hairdressers, coffee shops, etc, etc) that haven't been trading for nearly two months! And will they ever get the chance to do so again - and if so, under what kind of draconian restrictions, imposed in the name of 'controlling the virus'?
In terms of your last sentence, I agree, but that's not what I was saying.
Marco.
No, it ranges from sole traders up to multi-nationals. So a pretty good cross-section. Obviously there are some businesses, like you say, which have been completely screwed, however I don't think there was any realistic alternative to forcing them to close. Clearly the best solution, the only solution I can see for them is a vaccine. A vaccine is the only way we can return to complete normality. That's why I don't see why you have an issue with it, leaving aside all the Bill Gates microchip stuff of course.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/E8B5/production/_112437595_b6cc5fa4-328c-4b0a-b4c3-456f42316541.jpg
American social distancing:doh:
walpurgis
25-05-2020, 13:06
American social distancing:doh:
Well they're three thousand miles from me! :)
been a lot more people out today around here than of late, ..on foot, bike and car..
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/wCBLtigUiFEdnDvEeZ9nBMFIOJRxgWdZiR4zx-KEYySK4-PDcK-rhSqhbCwfiXl6iMOYKXfvEEM4tl2pVJkOAP2d37CBq3yCIBwKI aZ4jvP-f88wcmk9ittjJBAYfuPC3kbTrUkvWNBo6y_rJw
Mmm... Still not convinced I'll have to look at it again in more detail.
So what about this section then (and the rest if it) from an entirely new act, introduced only this year:
Sounds pretty much to me like a police state, with COVID-19 now being used as an excuse to implement fascism! And how will an appointed "heath officer" (you've just got to love the choice of language, as it's *pure* NLP) judge if you're considered as "potentially infectious" - based on what criteria? A cough or a 'funny look'??
Marco.
Again, this is not dissimilar to a provision in the original 1984 Act:
'36Medical examination of group of persons believed to comprise carrier of notifiable disease
(1)If a justice of the peace (acting, if he deems it necessary, ex parte) is satisfied, on a written certificate issued by the proper officer of the local authority for a district—
(a)that there is reason to believe that one of a group of persons, though not suffering from a notifiable disease, is carrying an organism that is capable of causing it, and
(b)that in the interest of those persons or their families, or in the public interest, it is expedient that those persons should be medically examined,
the justice may order them to be medically examined by a registered medical practitioner nominated by the local authority for that district.'
The basic, fundamental fact is that not only does current legislation not provide for compulsory vaccination, it explicitly forbids any form of compulsory medical treatment. Even when someone consents to treatment, there is a legal duty on the person providing the treatment to explain its purpose and possible side-effects. I get this type of spiel every time I have a flu jab (though so far I've not had any side-effects). AFAIK, health workers are not obliged to have the flu jab, though they are strongly encouraged to have one. No doubt they'll be in the front go the queue if/when a COVID vaccine is developed, but I'll be with Macca right behind them.
But as I said up-thread, vaccination has always produced paranoia, most recently in the case of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) jab. A 'heretic' doctor produced evidence that the jab caused autism. In fact, he'd fiddled the data, and the risk of autism is no greater in children who have the jab compared to those who don't, though the latter can, and often do, develop the potentially fatal diseases the jab protects them from.
Mikeandvan
25-05-2020, 15:03
I'm not concerned about mandatory vaccine, why be scared of a vaccine, didn;t you get the measles jab as a kiddie? What does concern me is the economy, and the point made in the video that about half of it won't be needed, I made the same point myself on Facebook a few days ago, a lot of our economy is froth and now after doing without it people might realise they just don't need it. The Scottish expansion of hate speech laws is a bad thing, for sure, but that's been happening in the UK anyway since the S.Lawrence enquiry. A worrying trend indeed, one gleefully heralded by the lefty virtue signalling set over on PFM, a bunch who think they're so 'progressive' and that their opinions are so right on that they'll never be subject of hate speech laws, oops, then along came trans activists and put an end to that, gotta love that though, lesson learnt? Probably not. This is indeed a scary and pivotal time, the lockdown and furloughing staff and the money being handed out like sweeties is merely comfort food, we'll see in a few months the lie of the land, and that's when the proverbial will really hit the fans. This virus is nothing compared to the economic calamity unfolding. What is your answer to that? Not to shore up businesses? Universal basic income? I have an answer, one that will save businesses and individuals piles of their hard earned, and that's to get rid of the most unproductive and biggest drain on capital and incomes - the landlord, kill that parasite off, and heh presto we're all a great deal freer, with no need for government interference or aid. My local café give over half its income in rent and rates, absurd. And a hangover from feudal days. What's your answer to the coming economic calamity?
This virus is nothing compared to the economic calamity unfolding. What is your answer to that? Not to shore up businesses? Universal basic income? I have an answer, one that will save businesses and individuals piles of their hard earned, and that's to get rid of the most unproductive and biggest drain on capital and incomes - the landlord, kill that parasite off, and heh presto we're all a great deal freer, with no need for government interference or aid.
I think you should know that Marco is a landlord.
No, it ranges from sole traders up to multi-nationals. So a pretty good cross-section. Obviously there are some businesses, like you say, which have been completely screwed, however I don't think there was any realistic alternative to forcing them to close. Clearly the best solution, the only solution I can see for them is a vaccine. A vaccine is the only way we can return to complete normality. That's why I don't see why you have an issue with it, leaving aside all the Bill Gates microchip stuff of course.
That's the bit I'm looking forward to! Maybe it'll be like Fantastic Voyage, and we'll get microscopic submarines injected into our bloodstream.
No, it ranges from sole traders up to multi-nationals. So a pretty good cross-section. Obviously there are some businesses, like you say, which have been completely screwed, however I don't think there was any realistic alternative to forcing them to close.
Well, we could've adopted the Swedish model: https://www.ft.com/content/a2b4c18c-a5e8-4edc-8047-ade4a82a548d
They seem to have done pretty well out of it, with currently 34,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19, compared with our 261,000... Yes I know it would've been risky, but pretty much any strategy is risky when you're dealing with a killer virus. I just hate EXTREMES of anything - absolutes, 'all or nothings', 'blacks or whites'; I'm someone who's always preferred living somewhere near the more considered middle ground!
Therefore, like Sweden have done, I'd have adopted a rather more considered approach to dealing with this pandemic, and so what will be interesting to see when it's all over is who fared best (had the least deaths) overall among the countries that adopted strict lockdown policies, versus those who had a more considered, less extreme approach.
Clearly the best solution, the only solution I can see for them is a vaccine. A vaccine is the only way we can return to complete normality. That's why I don't see why you have an issue with it, leaving aside all the Bill Gates microchip stuff of course.
Of course the Gates thing is a BIG part of it, as I wouldn't trust ANYTHING that fucker's been involved in with a bargepole. He's had a great record in India and Africa with his vaccines so far, hasn't he? See below:
https://youtu.be/uFzc_OgEDgI
I simply can't rationalise a credible reason why a multi-billionaire, out-and-out businessman/entrepreneur/tech geek has a MANIA with vaccines... WHY?? It just leaves a VERY bad taste in my mouth, especially given his history to date in that area!
In terms of any vaccine involving Gates, I firmly believe that this type of technology could end up being be misused: https://www.sciencealert.com/an-invisible-quantum-dot-tattoo-is-being-suggested-to-id-vaccinated-kids
The 'mark of the devil'? And you wouldn't even know! Nah, you can keep that shit. Plus, as you agreed yourself earlier:
I agree that although the virus is potentially deadly I agree it isn't deadly enough to warrant such an extreme measure.
Extreme measures or not, I don't believe that we *actually need* a vaccine to protect the vast majority of our population against a virus with such a low death rate. It stinks of simply creating more profit and control for the elite.
I'm a 'free spirit', fairly private, self-sufficient person, who is used to doing WHAT he wants WHEN he wants, whilst answering to no-one, and largely to divorce himself from the 'accepted norm' and stay as 'off-grid'/well away from the effects of 'the system' as possible - and I simply don't believe that my best interests would be looked after in our ever-growing more surveilled, newly vaccinated society!
It's fundamentally an affront to ALL my most valued principles!!
Now we're over the worst, it should be dealt with by heard immunity and simply left for our immune systems (and nature) to ultimately manage, as has indeed been the case with many similar things throughout the history of mankind.
And start getting life life back to some sort of normal - that's OUR normal, the one we used to know!!
Marco.
Based on some figures a scientist had worked out. It was on a video I watched. Will see if I can find it:)
Marco.
Let's hope it's bit more accurate than the last one you posted. But the information is easy enough to find. Basically, there's not a single 'death rate' for COVID; it varies widely between countries.
Here for example:
https://theconversation.com/fast-acting-countries-cut-their-coronavirus-death-rates-while-us-delays-cost-thousands-of-lives-139018
'Our latest research looked at 60 countries worldwide over the first 100 days of the pandemic and found several recurring themes.
Overall, countries that acted quickly and implemented stringent measures that kept most residents at home as the pandemic started to spread were able to reduce their daily COVID-19 death rate faster than countries with looser restrictions. Countries that had aggressive policy interventions in place before their first coronavirus death, such as Denmark and South Korea, tended to have fewer deaths.
We also found that countries with large vulnerable populations benefited more from fast, strict policy implementation than others. For example:
Countries with older populations that quickly implemented stringent measures saw their death rates fall about 9% after two weeks, compared to death rates falling 3.5% in the youngest countries with similar rules.
Similarly, countries in cooler climates, which offer more ideal circumstances for the virus to spread, benefited more from stringent measures than warmer countries near the equator.
Countries with greater population density, more personal freedom and large numbers of residents working in jobs that leave them vulnerable to exposure also benefited more from quick action, but the difference wasn’t as stark as for those with older populations.
In general, countries with stricter rules saw their death numbers peak after about 40 days, compared to 50 days for countries that also acted quickly but had looser restrictions.
Italy vs. South Korea
These findings, published May 18 as a National Bureau of Economy Research working paper, might help explain the lower mortality rates in South Korea and Germany. Both countries invoked stringent policies early on and invested in upgrading their medical capabilities.
On the other hand, Italy’s high mortality reflects the absence of stringent policies in place prior to COVID-19’s explosive mortality wave there, along with the large share of seniors living in congested regions and extended family households. Germany’s percentage of residents over age 65 is only slightly lower than Italy’s, yet it had far fewer deaths per capita.
[...]
The numbers stand out. In April, South Korea’s daily mortality rate peaked at 0.1 deaths per million residents, while Germany and Denmark had rates of roughly 2.8 deaths per million people. Sweden did not fare as well, with 10.6 deaths per million, nor did Italy at 13.6 per million or Spain at 18.6 per million.
The much lower death rate in Denmark also reflects the stricter policies enacted there, as opposed to more relaxed policies in Sweden.'
That's the bit I'm looking forward to! Maybe it'll be like Fantastic Voyage, and we'll get microscopic submarines injected into our bloodstream.
As long as it's got Raquel Welch at the height of her powers on board I'm all for it.
I'm not exactly sure what benefits having a microscopic Raquel Welch in my bloodstream would bring. But it certainly can't hurt.
well they have had over 4k deaths and their cases are still on the rise... ours are on the wain. not so sure what either did was the right thing tbh... Im inclined to think we should have been able to test and trace from beginning.. At risk populations should have been put in cotton wool earlier, and all contacts regularly tested.
the rest of population should have distanced as best they could, wore masks etc and taken their chances, which for the younger, healthy population was a fairly good risk. It would have kept economy ticking over.. anyone entering country should have been tested before being allowed to mix..
all this should have happened in february
Now we're over the worst, it should be dealt with by heard immunity and simply left for our immune systems (and nature) to ultimately manage, as has indeed been the case with many similar things throughout the history of mankind!
Marco.
Actually, most of the big killer diseases of the past have been eliminated, not by herd immunity, but by vaccination/immunisation. That applies to what were the main killer diseases in my parent's childhood (TB, diphtheria, polio, smallpox) and the ones which were still prevalent when I was a nipper, but which are now (mostly) on the way to being eradicated (measles, mumps, rubella). Malaria, in Western Europe at least, was eliminated by draining the marshes where mosquitos breed, and cholera was eliminated by improved sanitation and clean drinking water, though both are still massively fatal diseases in poorer countries.
I think you should know that Marco is a landlord.
Lol, indeed (only two small properties, though, not a hill of beans really). But Mike's entitled to his opinion, as he's clearly had some bad experiences as a tenant, which I can totally sympathise with, as there are some right bastard landlords out there!
Marco.
Actually, most of the big killer diseases of the past have been eliminated, not by herd immunity, but by vaccination/immunisation.
Yes, ones that in total have killed far more people worldwide, than I believe COVID-19 has or will kill people in future. Of course, that's only my layman's opinion, but it's one I'd bet on!
Marco.
well they have had over 4k deaths and their cases are still on the rise... ours are on the wain. not so sure what either did was the right thing tbh... Im inclined to think we should have been able to test and trace from beginning.. At risk populations should have been put in cotton wool earlier, and all contacts regularly tested.
the rest of population should have distanced as best they could, wore masks etc and taken their chances, which for the younger, healthy population was a fairly good risk. It would have kept economy ticking over.. anyone entering country should have been tested before being allowed to mix..
all this should have happened in february
And no doubt for the next one that's what they will do. This is an unprecedented event, everyone's on a learning curve. You don't want to screw your economy and you don't want a shedload of dead people either. It's a very difficult balancing act especially the first time out the gate.
And no doubt for the next one that's what they will do. This is an unprecedented event, everyone's on a learning curve. You don't want to screw your economy and you don't want a shedload of dead people either. It's a very difficult balancing act especially the first time out the gate.
The main advantage of mass testing is that you quickly get a grip on how many cases there are, and where they are. Otherwise, you're relying on reported/diagnosed cases, which is an unreliable measure because the symptoms of COVID vary considerably between individuals, as this report from the Beeb indicates:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52760992
"I think most clinicians were expecting a respiratory virus that causes pneumonia," says Prof Anthony Gordon, a consultant on the intensive care unit at St Mary's Hospital, Paddington, "something similar to diseases like seasonal flu on a much bigger scale".
But, he says, it became apparent very quickly that it was affecting far more than just people's breathing.
Viral pneumonia is a nasty disease - a serious infection of the lungs which causes inflammation as the body fights against it.
But the worst cases of Covid-19 have been something new.
"The volume of this is, of course, unprecedented in the era of modern medicine," says Ron Daniels, an intensive care consultant at hospitals in Birmingham.
"But it's also the type of illness which is so distinct, and the way it's really different from almost every other patient that we've ever seen before."
For the critically ill, this is a disease of such severe inflammation and blood clotting that it attacks multiple organs and causes life-threatening problems that cascade around the body.
"As a doctor it seems at times quite horrific, we have had so many very, very sick patients who are having these profound changes in their body en masse," says Beverley Hunt, a professor of thrombosis - the clotting of the blood - who works in intensive care at a leading London hospital.
"We're all struggling to understand it better and it's absolutely key that we get more research done so we can understand what is going on."
[...]
"We've yet to fully understand this condition, it is baffling," admits Ron Daniels, pointing out that even in intensive care, patients present in a variety of different ways. "We can have a patient in their 70s who has isolated respiratory failure and just needs a bit of help with a ventilator. And we can have a patient in their 20s who develops multi-organ failure very quickly."
In the absence of solid proof, many theories are being discussed, based on observation of patients, and much research is being done.
Many ICU doctors think it is highly likely that genetics plays a part in some people becoming critically ill with Covid-19, but they can't yet say for sure.
"It could be partly responsible for the disproportionate effect it has had on people of African and Asian origin," says Ron Daniels. "It may also be responsible for the differences in the response of individuals."
It is possible, for example, that the genetic variation that makes you more susceptible to getting high blood pressure or diabetes also makes you more susceptible to the virus.'
What's especially galling in all this is that for years the UK was ahead of the world in planning for just this sort of pandemic, only for us to 'drop the ball' just when we needed to act quickly.
Let's hope it's bit more accurate than the last one you posted.
Well, it's likely to be WAY more accurate than the 'R' number (rate of infection) the government have calculated for Coronavirus! I'd love to see them show their 'workings out' for that!:lol:
Ok, let's see in time then, when all the relevant data has been collated and properly analysed, what the *actual* death rate percentage figure is - and I bet it ends up being much lower than most would've suspected, and no worse than many other viruses!
Marco.
usa has done the most tests so their records are best to look at.. suggests 5% of known cases die
What I want to know is, who are these 'shadowy elite' people? What are their names, and where do they live? Are they on Facebook? Do they pay well?
Lol, indeed (only two small properties, though, not a hill of beans really). But Mike's entitled to his opinion, as he's clearly had some bad experiences as a tenant, which I can totally sympathise with, as there are some right bastard landlords out there!
Marco.
You'll be first up against the wall come the revolution.
usa has done the most tests so their records are best to look at.. suggests 5% of known cases die
That's because most people who get tested only get tested because they go to hospital as they're really sick from it. Doesn't take into account all the people who had it and had minor or none existent symptoms and were never tested. We don't know what number that is but I'd guess it has to be at least a hundred times, maybe even a thousand times, more cases than the tested ones. So you can put a decimal point and a few zeroes in front of that 5% if we talk about all cases.
That's because most people who get tested only get tested because they go to hospital as they're really sick from it. Doesn't take into account all the people who had it and had minor or none existent symptoms and were never tested. We don't know what number that is but I'd guess it has to be at least a hundred times, maybe even a thousand times, more cases than the tested ones. So you can put a decimal point and a few zeroes in front of that 5% if we talk about all cases.
i did say, known cases...
I behaved reasonably,' says Cummings
may just have lost the tories the next election
I dunno; the election's four years away. Much depends on how things pan our for the economy post-COVID and post-Brexit. Boris made a lot of promises to secure what had been safe Labour seats in the North, and it's unclear (to me anyway) how he can deliver on these. Plus Labour's got someone not totally useless as leader. But four years is a long time in politics.
I dunno; the election's four years away. Much depends on how things pan our for the economy post-COVID and post-Brexit. Boris made a lot of promises to secure what had been safe Labour seats in the North, and it's unclear (to me anyway) how he can deliver on these. Plus Labour's got someone not totally useless as leader. But four years is a long time in politics.
people are really pissed tbh.. more than just at him,and his attitude but of boris and not just his backing, but his poor attitude throughout... he always reminds me of crusty the clown; always itching to drop his pants to go out on:doh:
Pierre De Grenoble
25-05-2020, 16:17
Boris made a lot of promises to secure what had been safe Labour seats in the North, and it's unclear (to me anyway) how he can deliver on these. Plus Labour's got someone not totally useless as leader. But four years is a long time in politics.
Indeed it is, I do not even believe that Billy Bluster will even survive the 4 years as PM. His bullshit will trip him too many times.
never mind the implications of crashing out of the EU without any sort of a trade deal.
I like Boris. Always have done since he was first on Have I Got News For You and they were giving him grief about the Darius Guppy thing. Not sure how long ago that was but it was in the Angus Deayton era so must be 25 years ago. I said then it wouldn't surprise me if he made Prime Minister one day. Of course I was laughed at.
Okay so he's an Eton toff whose never had to spend a day in his life, but I like the cut of his jib. I'll be voting for him again if he comes around for another turn.
Every prediction I've ever made about politics has been wrong, indeed my record's on a par with my father's (in)ability to pick score draws on the football pools, so I stick with the jokes these days.
Pierre De Grenoble
25-05-2020, 16:34
Okay so he's an Eton toff whose never had to spend a day in his life, but I like the cut of his jib. I'll be voting for him again if he comes around for another turn.
words genuinely fail me, why would any educated person vote for a lying idiot being steered day to day by a bunch of neo fascists (1922 wankers)
Every prediction I've ever made about politics has been wrong, indeed my record's on a par with my father's (in)ability to pick score draws on the football pools, so I stick with the jokes these days.
US Politics I'm terrible at. Guessed wrong with Obama, never thought dubya would get a second term. Although I did pick Trump when he was way back in the field.
UK politics I've got a solid track record except for when John Major won that time ('93?)
RobbieGong
25-05-2020, 16:38
words genuinely fail me, why would any educated person vote for a lying idiot being steered day to day by a bunch of neo fascists (1922 wankers)
+1
US Politics I'm terrible at. Guessed wrong with Obama, never thought dubya would get a second term. Although I did pick Trump when he was way back in the field.
UK politics I've got a solid track record except for when John Major won that time ('93?)
'92. On one forum I used to frequent, a woman named David Cameron (then totally unknown) as the next Tory leader. She was so sure about it, she put money on it at good odds. I thought, nah, that's never going to happen.
words genuinely fail me, why would any educated person vote for a lying idiot being steered day to day by a bunch of neo fascists (1922 wankers)
Boris knobbed Macca's cousin. He's practically family.
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