Johns Hopkins Medical Centre - World Coronavirus infection Map by Country.

[Marco]

I agree. But then why wouldn’t you want to take basic precautions to try and limit the spread of the disease, just in case?

If wearing a mask helps save one life, then that’s a good thing, surely?

Yes, if I actually thought it worked in a majorly significant way! The problem is, I don't, and I haven't seen any convincing evidence to date that proves (to me) otherwise. Remember that the vast majority of folk are simply wearing 'face coverings', in order be compliant, not proper N95 masks, which *are* genuinely effective.

The other thing, which I've said many times before, I abhor anything that *I* consider isn't warranted becoming mandatory in a supposedly free country, and so aside from anything else, I'll be predisposed to sticking two fingers up to that, purely out of principle, regardless of anything else!

Marco.

[Marco]

wearing seatbelts, drink driving laws, cars fit for purpose.. all sensible or over reaction?

Wearing seatbelts I consider is justifiably mandatory. Drink-driving laws ditto, although the complete ban enforced in Scotland I think goes too far, as it penalises the vast majority of people who are perfectly capable of enjoying a pint or a glass of wine along with a meal, whilst staying well within the limits [count me in].

As usual, the braindead idiots, who can't control themselves, spoil things for the majority!:rolleyes:

What about the smoking ban? Even as a non-smoker and someone who considers it a filthy habit and can't stand smelling cigarette smoke, I still consider the outright ban of smoking in pubs as grossly unfair and heavy-handed. IMHO, the situation could've been managed so much better and made fairer to accommodate the legitimate human rights of (considerate) smokers.

Marco.

[Macca]

Absolutely not. I've seen the results of not wearing seat belts.

yes but the consequences are on the individual not anyone else. By the same logic we should ban mountain-climbing, skiing, boxing etc etc because the consequences can all be terrible.

[Beobloke]

What about the smoking ban? .

One of the best things ever to happen in this country, IMHO.

[Macca]

One of the best things ever to happen in this country, IMHO.

Or one of the most sickeningly authoritarian misuses of power ever. Depending on your point of view...

[Marco]

I'll go with your description, even as a staunch non-smoker. What happened there was fundamentally wrong and shouldn't have been allowed.

Marco.

[Macca]

It's really nothing to do with me being a smoker, it's the principle of the government getting involved in areas of life where it has no business to be involved.

[Marco]

I fully agree, and it sets a dangerous precedent when draconian cack like that is simply allowed to happen with such little resistance - and in that respect important parallels can be drawn with some other freedoms people are too weak-willed and ready to relinquish, as a result of the government using this pandemic as a justified excuse for such....!

Significantly increased surveillance and restrictions in freedom of movement being but two, which will undoubtedly become the 'new normal', simply because the sheeple don't have the belly to fight it, and moreover, are all too happy to live their superficial lives on Smartphones, and be spied upon and controlled accordingly.

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Given the desperate stupidity of vast tracts of the population, I'm generally fairly agnostic about measures being implemented to attempt to control this stupidity and minimise the adverse effects of it on others.

As to being spied upon - if you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about! ;)

[Marco]

As to being spied upon - if you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about! ;)

Indeed, but that kind of misses the point. It's the *principal* behind it, which allows such, that's the point. And the more 'on grid', tech-driven your life is, the more open you are to potentially having your freedoms and privacy infringed.

People are simply too predisposed to acquiescing to authority, rather than rebelling against it, and personally I'd like to see that situation redressed, and a greater equilibrium restored between compliance and justified protestation.

Freedom of thought is being eroded more than ever now by the 'powers that be', and we must not allow that trend to continue!

Marco.

[Marco]

What concerns me now, and which this pandemic has accelerated (advanced by about 10 years), is the drive towards a 'cashless society' - another odious example of the 'new normal'. Witness now how in many establishments cash payments are refused, as if every piece of paper money or coin has somehow been contaminated by the virus!:doh:

Utter nonsense, well at least no more likely so than any other vulnerable surface on the outside world... So now we're seeing mainly card payments and 'contactless', and if you dare refuse and present cash instead as your means of payment, you're subjected to scorn and treated like a leper! Or simply refused service completely.

Once again, aside from the ridiculousness of the notion presented for refusing cash, it's the rather dangerous precedent it sets, as it removes control from the individual (as your cash is YOUR cash) and gives more powers to the banks and other large organisations, ultimately controlled by 'Big Brother', to the extent I believe that one day when cash becomes extinct, which in time it surely will, they'll be able to control how or on what your money is spent... Money may well simply be turned into 'credits' and no longer recognised in the same way.

You think not?

Well let's see where we are then in 10 or 20 years time (perhaps sooner), where ALL financial transactions will be performed electronically, and ultimately then WHO controls your finances and privileges attached to that. We've all slowly been led/brainwashed into becoming technology junkies and slaves to convenience, and mark my words, in time that (and our gullibility) will lead to our downfall and the end of civilisation as we've known it.

So do your bit to keep cash alive by supporting small businesses where cash is still welcome, and in that respect, put a spanner in the works of the 'powers that be' for as long as possible!

Marco.

[Beobloke]

...they'll be able to control how or on what your money is spent...



Too late. Ursula's way ahead of them in that respect... :(

[Marco]

Lol... Del would like that to be the case too, if I fully supported her pretensions for being a princess!:doh::D

I'm making a serious point, though.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Just been confirmed, a man in Hong Kong has been found to have had Covid 19 for a second time within a few months, and apparently the second strain was diffrent to the first :scratch: this now puts doubt on whether a vaccine will ever be effective in the long term.:(

[Marco]

Exactly, mate. It's all bullshit. By their very biological nature, viruses will mutate (alter their cellular structure), and in doing so change their behaviour.

Flu is the same, hence why we get different strains of such and why the contents of the flu jab each year are never identical, and also why as you point out, you can only ever be immunised against it for so long before the effect wears off.

And so it'll be exactly the same with any vaccine created for Covid-19, that is if you trust them to make it safe! The reality is, they've got no more chance of creating a genuine 'cure' for Covid, as they have of one for the common cold!

Marco.

[InThe Sticks]

Indeed, but that kind of misses the point. It's the *principal* behind it, which allows such, that's the point. And the more 'on grid', tech-driven your life is, the more open you are to potentially having your freedoms and privacy infringed.

People are simply too predisposed to acquiescing to authority, rather than rebelling against it, and personally I'd like to see that situation redressed, and a greater equilibrium restored between compliance and justified protestation.

Freedom of thought is being eroded more than ever now by the 'powers that be', and we must not allow that trend to continue!

Marco.

What are your thoughts on the SNP's hate crime bill?
I can't see it doing much for free speech or expression.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed, i think there are many many people coming to the same conclusion!
Exactly, mate. It's all bullshit. By their very biological nature, viruses will mutate (alter their cellular structure), and in doing so change their behaviour.

Flu is the same, hence why we get different strains of such and why the contents of the flu jab each year are never identical, and also why as you point out, you can only ever be immunised against it for so long before the effect wears off.

And so it'll be exactly the same with any vaccine created for Covid-19, that is if you trust them to make it safe! The reality is, they've got no more chance of creating a genuine 'cure' for Covid, as they have of one for the common cold!

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

What concerns me now, and which this pandemic has accelerated (advanced by about 10 years), is the drive towards a 'cashless society' - another odious example of the 'new normal'. Witness now how in many establishments cash payments are refused, as if every piece of paper money or coin has somehow been contaminated by the virus!:doh:

Utter nonsense, well at least no more likely so than any other vulnerable surface on the outside world... So now we're seeing mainly card payments and 'contactless', and if you dare refuse and present cash instead as your means of payment, you're subjected to scorn and treated like a leper! Or simply refused service completely.

Once again, aside from the ridiculousness of the notion presented for refusing cash, it's the rather dangerous precedent it sets, as it removes control from the individual (as your cash is YOUR cash) and gives more powers to the banks and other large organisations, ultimately controlled by 'Big Brother', to the extent I believe that one day when cash becomes extinct, which in time it surely will, they'll be able to control how or on what your money is spent... Money may well simply be turned into 'credits' and no longer be recognised in the same way.

You think not?

Well let's see where we are then in 10 or 20 years time (perhaps sooner), where ALL financial transactions will be performed electronically, and ultimately then WHO controls your finances and privileges attached to that. We've all slowly been led/brainwashed into becoming technology junkies and slaves to convenience, and mark my words, in time that (and our gullibility) will lead to our downfall and the end of civilisation as we've known it.

So do your bit to keep cash alive by supporting small businesses where cash is still welcome, and in that respect, put a spanner in the works of the 'powers that be' for as long as possible!

Marco.

I always welcome cash, so if you're having problems offloading it just send me a PM and I will provide account details :D

No one pays by cheque any more, which is fine by me as getting to a bank which hasn't closed down to pay it in is a total PITA. And many folk, particularly older people, can't be doing with bank transfers. So I do get a lot of cash payments. Which at least I can dump at any post office.

[Beobloke]

Lol... Del would like that to be the case too, if I fully supported her pretensions for being a princess!:doh::D

I'm making a serious point, though.

Marco.

Fair enough, although I remember my father having a similar rant when debit cards and PIN numbers came into more common usage and cheques started to fade out

The result was......absolutely nothing bad happened.

[Pigmy Pony]

Just been confirmed, a man in Hong Kong has been found to have had Covid 19 for a second time within a few months, and apparently the second strain was diffrent to the first :scratch: this now puts doubt on whether a vaccine will ever be effective in the long term.:(

Maybe his first test provided a false positive. As has been pointed out to me, we cannot make assumptions about these things.

[Pigmy Pony]

It's really nothing to do with me being a smoker, it's the principle of the government getting involved in areas of life where it has no business to be involved.

Agreed, although I think the government are just cow towing the the will of the nation's vocal majority of softarses. Just because I drive a 'normal' car, and consider the use of 'performance' cars on the roads unnecessary and their drivers to be at best selfish, and at worst the antiChrist, I support their right to drive 'em :D And believe me, now that the mardys have got their own way on the smoking, the next target will be the internal combustion engine. Oh wait, it already is. So I suppose the fatties will be next.

[Marco]

Hi Jon,


What are your thoughts on the SNP's hate crime bill?
I can't see it doing much for free speech or expression.

I haven't read it, as with not living in Scotland or voting SNP, its contents are unlikely to impact much upon me. However, I'm fundamentally against anything that stifles or prevents (reasonable, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobic, etc) free speech.

Therefore, if it's designed to gag people in that way, then I wouldn't support it. However, that would have zero influence on my support for the SNP or NS, in terms of their goals for achieving Scottish independence, which remains as something I would dearly love to see happen in my lifetime:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Fair enough, although I remember my father having a similar rant when debit cards and PIN numbers came into more common usage and cheques started to fade out

The result was......absolutely nothing bad happened.

Oh Adam, as intelligent a man as you are, such statements also display your naivety... What's bad that happened was of course it acted as a stepping stone/catalyst towards creating the situation we have now! The impending reality of a cashless society, and all that goes with it (potential loss of freedoms), as previously outlined.

This stuff is always done in 'baby steps', in order to test our level of acceptance/tolerance of the 'new normal', with a view towards achieving an end goal, as outlined.

Therefore, as we all willingly embraced the use of debit cards and PIN numbers, and the introduction of increased forms of electronic monetary transactions (Paypal, etc), they've now taken things several steps further, to the situation that currently exists and the imminent extinction of cash...

And it's the same with this 'track & trace' bollocks now: they're testing our tolerance of being surveilled and accountable for our movements, which the majority of the great British public are only too happy to comply with, under the guise that they're helping control the spread of the virus, so we'll see how much further the 'powers that be' take that concept (and the associated technology) in future!

Remember, baby steps - slowly, slowly catchy monkey.....;)

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

I must say i agree with this - those with real money and power can pay clever minds to move their money round willy nilly to avoid paying taxes, while us lesser mortals have to take it up the arse. There was nothing wrong with cash as far as I can see, except that it made scrutiny more of a ball ache so it had to go :(

[Marco]

I always welcome cash, so if you're having problems offloading it just send me a PM and I will provide account details :D

No one pays by cheque any more, which is fine by me as getting to a bank which hasn't closed down to pay it in is a total PITA. And many folk, particularly older people, can't be doing with bank transfers. So I do get a lot of cash payments. Which at least I can dump at any post office.

Ha - good one... I'll gladly empty the contents of my whisky bottle, full of copper coins, onto your carpet - as I'm considerate that way! :D

Banks closed down? Not here in Wrexham, where pretty much every major bank still has an active, fully staffed high-street presence, including my own, the Nat West:)

Observe, muchacho: https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03lewcqQWCggXrWKfp8yTbvDdmr7Q:15 98297051380&q=banks+in+wrexham&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=53047806,-2995682,137&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwiYyfi_yLTrAhWQEMAKHR9XC40QjGp6BAgMEDg&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Ha - good one... I'll gladly empty the contents of my whisky bottle, full of copper coins, onto your carpet


Marco.

Is this a euphemism? If by 'whisky bottle' you mean 'your willy', and by 'copper coins' you mean spunk, I'll pass. Though it might be a good test for Anita's new Vax (and no that's not a euphemism) :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Aye, but it'd have to be a magnum bottle... For the girls, it's all about the girth!:eyebrows::D

Marco.

[InThe Sticks]

Hi Jon,



I haven't read it, as with not living in Scotland or voting SNP, its contents are unlikely to impact much upon me. However, I'm fundamentally against anything that stifles or prevents (reasonable, non-racist, non-sexist, non-homophobic, etc) free speech.

Therefore, if it's designed to gag people in that way, then I wouldn't support it. However, that would have zero influence on my support for the SNP or NS, in terms of their goals for achieving Scottish independence, which remains as something I would dearly love to see happen in my lifetime:)

Marco.


Wait, so you wouldn’t support something that is (and it will be used to) to suppress free speech and introduced by SNP, but that would have zero influence on your support for the SNP?
Wut?
Oh, and where independence is concerned, please enlighten me as to what currency will the SNP adopt.
They have no central bank, they can’t set interest rates, they’re high risk (highest deficit in europe ) and they can’t print money, so …

I guess theres always the Barnett formula, oh wait! When thats gone, oh fcuk :doh:

And please don’t mention Scottish oil, as thats worth less than tap water at the moment.
This is not a dig at you or the SNP, just my thoughts.

[Marco]

Jon, I'm not turning this discussion into a debate about Scottish independence, sorry. We'll keep that for another day. However, I'll answer this:


Wait, so you wouldn’t support something that is (and it will be used to) to suppress free speech and introduced by SNP, but that would have zero influence on your support for the SNP?
Wut?


When you support a club, and believe in what it fundamentally stands for, you don't always have to agree with every decision that the manager makes!;)

That's my last word on the matter.

Marco.

[Macca]

Just had a quick look at the hate speech thing. Misogyny will be made illegal, interesting, and blasphemy will be legalised. All really worthwhile stuff.

It's being introduced by Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf who can trace his Scots ancestry all the way back to Robert The Bruce.

[anthonyTD]

If you believe in a creator, and/or are part of a religion, one can't help but think that there seems to be very dark motivations for implementing many of the new so called Normalities of late :scratch:
Just had a quick look at the hate speech thing. Misogyny will be made illegal, interesting, and blasphemy will be legalised. All really worthwhile stuff.

It's being introduced by Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf who can trace his Scots ancestry all the way back to Robert The Bruce.

[struth]

its misguided, and extremely badly written, almost certainly deliberately so it can be used against pretty much anyone. ie saying to a friend in your house(example) that you dont like blacks and wish them all out of country(even as a joke and even tho he/she wasnt upset by it) you could be prosceuted if they later complained(in theory)

sturgeon is getting too big for her spats... she also has a few dark secrets re her involvement in the salmond case by looks of it..it may well bite her yet. i wish and hope she doesnt but its looking that way.
I guess this all stems from having too big a majority, much like the torys in uk.

[walpurgis]

:D They'll have their work cut out to stop the kind of very non-PC banter that goes on in working men's pubs. Any 'woke' smartarse opening his gob will probably get decked!

[struth]

:D They'll have their work cut out to stop the kind of very non-PC banter that goes on in working men's pubs. Any 'woke' smartarse opening his gob will probably get decked!

sure.. it may not be nice, but if you try and stop independent thought etc you are getting into dangerous ground. now i know they say that is not the intention but the act doesnt say it isnt going to be used that way, and that is the point.
You will always have folk who dont like other groups of folk. trying to outlaw those thoughts etc and discussions is potentially very dangerous. i'd rather be dead than told how to think

[Marco]

i'd rather be dead than told how to think

Be careful what you wish for, mate;) But I *totally* and UTTERLY agree! And that's why we MUST protect our human rights/civil liberties as much as possible (instead of meekly relinquishing them on the largely the basis of a lie, as has been seen recently during this pandemic), and most importantly, at ALL costs, remain as FREE THINKERS!

Don't ever let the bastards win. Don't just sit back and take it, people... DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead, and simply refuse to play ball. Ultimately, there are far more of us than there are of them, so we must all stand up for our rights while we still can!

Marco.

[struth]

you can beat a dog but eventually it will bite you. govts and do gooders need to realise this i think. Life shouldnt be too homogenized to point everyone thinks and does same.. thats 1984 shite

[anthonyTD]

:)
you can beat a dog but eventually it will bite you. govts and do gooders need to realise this i think. Life shouldnt be too homogenized to point everyone thinks and does same.. thats 1984 shite

[guy]

https://beta.parliament.scot/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill:

"A further example of a hate crime might be where a man shouts at a disabled person in a wheelchair on a street saying ‘get out of my way you cripple’ and proceeds to tip them out of their wheelchair. This might amount to an assault aggravated by prejudice relating to the victim’s disability in terms of section 1 of the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009 (“the 2009 Act”)."

I understand that this is an example, but does this sort of thing happen in Scotland :eek:

[Marco]

Only if you threaten to steal their bottle of Buckfast!:D;)

Marco.

[guy]

:doh: why didn't I think of that :D

[anthonyTD]

I would like to think that in this scenario, any decent minded bi-standers seeing this sort of behavior would hopefuly react in a way that would further prevent this type of carry on!
I have chosen my words carefuly here!;)
Seriously, in this type of scenario, do we realy need a law to tell us what decent human beings already know :scratch:
https://beta.parliament.scot/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill:

"A further example of a hate crime might be where a man shouts at a disabled person in a wheelchair on a street saying ‘get out of my way you cripple’ and proceeds to tip them out of their wheelchair. This might amount to an assault aggravated by prejudice relating to the victim’s disability in terms of section 1 of the Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009 (“the 2009 Act”)."

I understand that this is an example, but does this sort of thing happen in Scotland :eek:

[guy]

I would like to think that in this scenario, any decent minded bi-standers seeing this sort of behavior would hopefuly react in a way that would further prevent this type of carry on!
I have chosen my words carefuly here!;)

I take it that these bi-standers would help out regardless of the sex of the victim :)

[Marco]

I would like to think that in this scenario, any decent minded bi-standers seeing this sort of behavior would hopefuly react in a way that would further prevent this type of carry on!
I have chosen my words carefuly here!;)
Seriously, in this type of scenario, do we realy need a law to tell us what decent human beings already know :scratch:

You mean you'd knock fuck out of them?:D

Marco (not someone prone to political correctness).

[anthonyTD]

I would like to think so!
I take it that these bi-standers would help out regardless of the sex of the victim :)

[anthonyTD]

:eek: Trust you!
You mean you'd knock fuck out of them?:D

Marco (not someone prone to political correctness).

[Macca]

I would like to think that in this scenario, any decent minded bi-standers seeing this sort of behavior would hopefuly react in a way that would further prevent this type of carry on!
I have chosen my words carefuly here!;)
Seriously, in this type of scenario, do we realy need a law to tell us what decent human beings already know :scratch:

There are already laws to prosecute someone who did that, although seems to me to be the most unlikely of scenarios. if you tip the bloke out of his chair you're surely causing an even bigger obstacle to progress. Maybe you might do it to rob him, but again there is already a law against robbing people and assaulting people.

Like I said it's really worthwhile stuff. I suppose the idea is that when someone asks them what they have achieved in office it is something they can point to as a supposed accomplishment and it saves them from having to tackle genuine problems which is likely beyond their experience and ability to do in any case. Government (and management in general) is all about going for the low-hanging fruit.

[anthonyTD]

On a somewhat related topic, i remember being in a doctors surgery a few years back now, and sitting near me was a young lady in a wheel chair, now i am not sure what was wrong with her legs, but lets just say she wasnt able to use them, anyway, she tried to get up from the chair not sure why now, anyway it ended with her sat on the floor unable to get up, now bear in mind, the surgery was full of people many of whome were quite able to help her up, i was the only one who actualy offered my help, and eventualy managed to get her back in her chair, she was very grateful, but obviously embarrased about the situation she found herself in, now don't get me wrong, there are probably a few reasons why nobody else rushed to help her, but for me, it was an automatic reaction, and i was glad to help.
I would like to think that i would also help out in a similar situation as to the one outlined by Guy in a previous post.

[struth]

There are already laws for almost all of it bar the hidden agenda stuff. It should be booted out or the UK govt should penalise them. It is beyond their scope in a democracy to tell folk what to think, and say in private

[walpurgis]

It is beyond their scope in a democracy to tell folk what to think, and say in private

Just wait until your smart devices start grassing you up! :)

[Marco]

There are already laws for almost all of it bar the hidden agenda stuff. It should be booted out or the UK govt should penalise them. It is beyond their scope in a democracy to tell folk what to think, and say in private

I'm getting the feeling, mate, that you've fallen out now with 'wee Nicola' and won't be voting SNP again... True?;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Just wait until your smart devices start grassing you up! :)

Ha - too true, Geoff! They're already the biggest spies in your home in existence, and in that respect only destined to get worse, especially in terms of portable devices (such as not only phones, but the likes of 'smart watches'), where not only your virtual behaviour will be monitored more than ever, but also every move you make, if you allow it to happen!

That, and many other reasons, is why I wouldn't touch a Smartphone or any portable device like it, with a bargepole, as I firmly believe that in time they will lead to the eradication of our freedoms - and worse!

The key to having any in your home, such as a Smart TV, which unfortunately is unavoidable now and built in with any current flatscreen TV, is not to use their interactive features, or do so only sparingly, as their ability to spy on you is only as good as the information you give it - so if you give it hee-haw, it'll learn hee-haw!;)

And as for things such as Alexa, fuck that...:nono:

Marco.

[struth]

I'm getting the feeling, mate, that you've fallen out now with 'wee Nicola' and won't be voting SNP again... True?;)

Marco.

depends on her;) i agree some laws need tightening but thats no excuse for a coverall. her failure to produce exemption passes for disabled/ill people shows she doesnt really care about them, its just about her using her powers the way she wants.
to me thats unacceptable, and she needs to stop thinking because she has a huge majority she can just do what she wants. the snp and scottish govt isnt just her and her husband and a few hangers on

[anthonyTD]

That's all well and good, but when most of the people around you" where ever you go have them, we wont be able to get away from the technology, it has been designed to not only spy on the user, but all those surounding it!


That, and many other reasons, is why I wouldn't touch a Smartphone with a bargepole, as I firmly believe that in time they will lead to the eradication of our freedoms - and worse!

Marco.

[struth]

Just wait until your smart devices start grassing you up! :)

my smart device; ie my phone is as smart as i let it be;)

[Marco]

That's all well and good, but when most of the people around you" where ever you go have them, we wont be able to get away from the technology, it has been designed to not only spy on the user, but all those surounding it!

Sure, but you simply minimise the effect as much as possible, through your lifestyle choices. Not always easy, I know, but nothing ever is that's worth having.

That's why, as much as possible, I deliberately choose not to inhabit the 'real world', as the real world today is not somewhere I particularly like. And fortunately, as I'm mostly at home, I don't get to see much of it - and when I do venture out into 'the big bad world', I'm very choosy of where I go!;)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Ha - too true, Geoff! They're already the biggest spies in your home in existence, and in that respect only destined to get worse, especially in terms of portable devices (such as not only phones, but the likes of 'smart watches'), where not only your virtual behaviour will be monitored more than ever, but also every move you make, if you allow it to happen!

That, and many other reasons, is why I wouldn't touch a Smartphone or any portable device like it, with a bargepole, as I firmly believe that in time they will lead to the eradication of our freedoms - and worse!

The key to having any in your home, such as a Smart TV, which unfortunately is unavoidable now and built in with any current flatscreen TV, is not to use their interactive features, or do so only sparingly, as their ability to spy on you is only as good as the information you give it - so if you give it hee-haw, it'll learn hee-haw!;)

And as for things such as Alexa, fuck that...:nono:

Marco.

I hate to break it to you Marco, but you use a Mac. Apple already know all they need to know about you.

[Marco]

depends on her;) i agree some laws need tightening but thats no excuse for a coverall. her failure to produce exemption passes for disabled/ill people shows she doesnt really care about them, its just about her using her powers the way she wants.
to me thats unacceptable, and she needs to stop thinking because she has a huge majority she can just do what she wants. the snp and scottish govt isnt just her and her husband and a few hangers on

Yeah, totally agree. I just got the feeling that you'd had enough of her because she's not the person you thought she was.

Marco.

[Marco]

I hate to break it to you Marco, but you use a Mac. Apple already know all they need to know about you.

Of course! But, I don't give a toss because there's nothing they could know that's worth knowing! Posting on here, buying the occasion thing online (all very boring) and following Scottish football, via Internet radio, yes I'm sure they'll find all that deeply thrilling!:D

My laptop is simply a tool to facilitate my (few selective) hobbies.

The ones who interest 'Big Brother' are the idiots who continually broadcast their lives on social media, often in the nth detail, and as such have a very discernible 'virtual footprint'. In that respect. you'll find fook all about me on Facebook, Twitter, or any of the rest of that bollox, as it simply has no interest for me. The key is to make technology serve YOU, not *it*.

Marco.

[Marco]

my smart device; ie my phone is as smart as i let it be;)

Smart lad!:D

Marco.

[walpurgis]

You wait and see, the day may come when the rozzers cart you off simply because somebody complained that you 'weren't polite enough'!

[Marco]

Nah, the revolution will come long before that, mate:trust:

Marco.

[walpurgis]

My laptop is simply a tool to facilitate my (few selective) hobbies.

Marco.

How's the fishing going Marco? :D

[Marco]

Lol - got eaten by sharks!:D

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

The world is currently run by selfish, greedy, Unrighteous, scumbags, hell bent on imposing their will on the masses, and some would argue that has always been the case, however; never before in history have they had the power and the means to infiltrate, and therefore influence, and spy on each and every human being in this world, as they do now, again, some would argue the point "well if you have nothing to hide what's the harm" and if your one of those people, then you are seriously missing the point, we as humans were given a free hand to be what we are, and what we choose to be, and within reason, most of us' that is' those of us who are rational thinking, and mostly law abiding can live a life where we are true to ourselves, if we continue to give our freedom away to the controling, paranoid cowards that are currently running the show, then we run the risk of becoming all that is inhuman!

[RobbieGong]

The world is currently run by selfish, greedy, Unrighteous, scumbags, hell bent on imposing their will on the masses, and some would argue that has always been the case, however; never before in history have they had the power and the means to infiltrate, and therefore influence, and spy on each and every human being in this world, as they do now, again, some would argue the point "well if you have nothing to hide what's the harm" and if your one of those people, then you are seriously missing the point, we as humans were given a free hand to be what we are, and what we choose to be, and within reason, most of us' that is' those of us who are rational thinking, and mostly law abiding can live a life where we are true to ourselves, if we continue to give our freedom away to the controling, paranoid cowards that are currently running the show, then we run the risk of becoming all that is inhuman!

True Anthony. It's spiritual warfare we are living.

We as living humans, created by Almighty God, the creator of heaven, earth and everything thereof are in a spiritual battle, whether we know it or not / choose to acknowledge it or not and that's the crux of it.....

[anthonyTD]

:)
True Anthony. It's spiritual warfare we are living.

We as living humans, created by Almighty God, the creator of heaven, earth and everything thereof are in a spiritual battle, whether we know it or not / choose to acknowledge it or not and that's the crux of it.....

[struth]

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-effectiveness-masks.html

[mad-moon]

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-effectiveness-masks.html

yeah good stuff...so they do protect to a certain extent...I eat my words..and I'll get my coat.....:whistle:

[Gazjam]

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-effectiveness-masks.html

Good article, and common sense really.

[anthonyTD]

:)
https://phys.org/news/2020-08-effectiveness-masks.html

[Marco]

Interesting article, and yes it's certainly evidence to consider in support of wearing masks, but I don't believe that it categorically proves anything, as there are simply too many variables.

Aside from anything else, it assumes that folk are going around coughing their guts up all the time, such that you need protection from all the 'spray':doh: well my view would be if you're like that, then you should't be out in the first place, and should've stayed at home!! :ner:

Seriously though, as a healthy non-smoker, I very rarely cough, as I have good lungs, and if I'm unwell (or continually coughing) then I'll stay indoors. Therefore, the reality is that if I were to wear a mask outside it would make bugger all difference to others, as 99.9% of the time all I'm doing is breathing in and out normally!;)

That's my point, and I'm perfectly happy with the level of risk to ME, as things stand at the moment, not to be overly concerned about possible contamination when I'm out and about without a mask, as I take all other necessary precautions, such as hand-cleansing etc, and observe the social distancing rules where it is practical and achievable. Plus, I don't go outside or mix with others very often.

However, that's only me. I can't speak for anyone else in that respect, so if they feel happier wearing a mask outside, to protect others from them, or vice versa, then carry on. I have no problem with that whatsoever. My problem is the fact that it's been made *mandatory* in most of our (supposedly free) country, and that simply goes against the grain as someone who enjoys being a 'free spirit'.

And I'm certainly not anyone's slave either, or here to be 'controlled' - I kowtow to no-one. Plus I have a natural aversion towards being told what to do!

I did note this in the article, however, which backs up what I've said: "Unsurprisingly, they found N95 masks to be the most effective at reducing the horizontal spread of a cough", so if you want to do the job RIGHT, and be as protected as possible, then invest in an N95:)

Marco.

[struth]

my locality current totals show its increased of late again, and higher than national ave


5 cases per 100,000 people in the latest week 15 Aug-21 Aug. The average area in Scotland had 3.

9 cases in the latest week 15 Aug-21 Aug

+6 compared with the previous week

523 total cases to 25 Aug

100 coronavirus-related deaths registered to 09-Aug

[Marco]

It's still painfully low though mate, and really nothing to be concerned about. As I've said before, cases aren't necessarily a problem (this virus will be with us for some time yet), it's whether or not cases turn into hospital admissions, or deaths, that matters - and that simply hasn't been happening, thank goodness!

Most likely because of all the false positives from the (fatally flawed) tests!;)

Marco.

[InThe Sticks]

sturgeon is getting too big for her spats... she also has a few dark secrets re her involvement in the salmond case by looks of it..it may well bite her yet. i wish and hope she doesnt but its looking that way.


She may well get away with it as it appears that the SNP are marking their own homework, but its not run its course yet, so time will tell.
I don’t think the GERS report will do her cause any favours either..

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18676931.snp-ministers-drop-annual-economic-case-independence/

But, like i said, time will tell.

[Gazjam]

What if your asymptomatic?

Not saying you are Amigo, but there are those that are, and don’t even know it.
The Mask thing is about protecting others.

Mistakes are being made on a daily basis, our “Government” are making it up as they go along and with an obvious bunch of dickheads at the Helm who’d want to take any advice coming from them?
That said,
this is a new thing and we’re living through the early stages...who wants to look back in ten years and say wish I acted differently?

Agree with you Man 100%, it’s about Personal choice.


Interesting article, and yes it's certainly evidence to consider in support of wearing masks, but I don't believe that it categorically proves anything, as there are simply too many variables.

Aside from anything else, it assumes that folk are going around coughing their guts up all the time, such that you need protection from all the 'spray':doh: well my view would be if you're like that, then you should't be out in the first place, and should've stayed at home!! :ner:

Seriously though, I very rarely cough, as I'm healthy and have good lungs, and if I'm unwell (or continually coughing) then I'll stay indoors, so the reality is that if I were to wear a mask outside, it would make bugger all difference to others, as 99.9% of the time all I'm doing is breathing in and out normally!;)

That's my point, and I'm perfectly happy with the level of risk to ME, as things stand at the moment, not to be overly concerned about being contaminated when I'm out and about without a mask, as I take all other necessary precautions, such as hand-cleansing etc, and observe the social distancing rules where it is practical and achievable. And I don't go outside or mix with others that often.

However, that's only me. I can't speak for anyone else in that respect, so if they feel happier wearing a mask outside, to protect others from them, or vice versa, then carry on. I have no problem with that whatsoever. My problem is the fact that it's been made *mandatory* in most of our (supposedly free) country, and that simply goes against the grain as someone who enjoys being a 'free spirit'.

And I'm certainly not anyone's 'slave' either, or here to be controlled - I kowtow to no-one. Plus I have a natural aversion towards being told what to do!

I did note this in the article, however, which backs up what I've said: "Unsurprisingly, they found N95 masks to be the most effective at reducing the horizontal spread of a cough", so if you want to do the job RIGHT, and be as protected as possible, then invest in an N95:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Totally agree, mate. However, I doubt that I'm asymptomatic; indeed as I've said before, I'm almost certain that I've had Covid, as a few months back I had all of the common symptoms, as did Del. She was worse than me, but we got through it with only experiencing relatively mild symptoms.

Marco.

[Folsom]

Totally agree, mate. I doubt that I'm asymptomatic; indeed as I've said before, I'm almost certain that I've had Covid. as a few months back I had all of the common symptoms, as did Del. She was worse than me, but we got through it with relatively mild symptoms.

Marco.

I'm sure I had it in February. Lots of time at the airport... and the only thing I knew for sure is it wasn't the flu at all. A bunch of family members in my family that are 70+ have had it as far as we know as well. The tests seem to suck, not very good. My grandmother had 100% of symptoms and extremely likely exposure that fits all possible scenarios... test came back negative.

[Folsom]

https://phys.org/news/2020-08-effectiveness-masks.html

Isn't the real question whether or not there is real value in preventing contraction? Obviously for anyone with a heavily impaired immune system the answer is yes, but it is for every other contagion as well. Should we be drawing the whole thing out or try to get over it sooner than later?
And if
Per my other post, US has tested 5.8m people, and according to their own tested vs had approximation that would indicate that 58m have had it. And if the tests aren't even good at proving you have it... can you really fight it?

[Marco]

Isn't the real question whether or not there is real value in preventing contraction? Obviously for anyone with a heavily impaired immune system the answer is yes, but it is for every other contagion as well. Should we be drawing the whole thing out or try to get over it sooner than later?


A very good point, Jeremy, and one I wholly agree with. What's often 'conveniently forgotten' is that for the overwhelming vast majority of the UK population, this virus clearly *isn't* deadly. Around 42,000 people have sadly died, but out of a total population of nearly 67 million!

That's why I'd advocate that said overwhelming vast majority should be allowed to get on with their lives, as near to normal as possible, and the rest, the ones (rightfully) taking every precaution and being as protected as possible. For me, there has been, and still is, far too much of a propensity to panic, instead of the displaying of cool heads and rational logic.

Basically, the agenda SHOULD NOT be allowed to be driven by satisfying the best interests of the minority, but instead the other way round, otherwise it simply doesn't make sense.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

A very good point, Jeremy, and one I wholly agree with. What's often 'conveniently forgotten' is that for the overwhelming vast majority of the UK population, this virus clearly *isn't* deadly. Around 42,000 people have sadly died, but out of a total population of nearly 67 million!

That's why I'd advocate that said overwhelming vast majority should be allowed to get on with their lives, as near to normal as possible, and the rest, the ones (rightfully) taking every precaution and being as protected as possible. For me, there has been, and still is, far too much of a propensity to panic, instead of the displaying of cool heads and rational logic.

Basically, the agenda SHOULD NOT be allowed to be driven by satisfying the best interests of the minority, but instead the other way round, otherwise it simply doesn't make sense.

Marco.

I thought that the aim was always to keep infection rates to a level that the NHS can handle. I know the rate didn't come close to challenging our capacity to deal with it, but is it not possible this is due to the measures implemented thus far? Many of our members will be elderly or have elderly parents - how would we feel if it came to a point where we were told "Sorry, no room at the inn, you'll have to stay at home with your hot water bottle and inhaler"? It could still happen.

This not me defending the government, after all they're Tories and that is indefensible. But none of us fully understand what we're dealing with.

And I'm not advocating mandatory face masks, just common sense.

[walpurgis]

how would we feel if it came to a point where we were told "Sorry, no room at the inn, you'll have to stay at home with your hot water bottle and inhaler"? It could still happen.

It will happen and is already happening. The masses don't give a toss about the effects of the virus and would be happy to just 'carry on as normal' regardless of who may fall by the wayside. The virus is slowly on the up again, but I expect the government will start playing things down soon and we'll get less and less information. This illness is far from gone.

[guy]

Feeling rough as old boots, aching all over and terrible diarrhea.
Nearest test site available is 80 miles away:eek:

put in order for home test

[InThe Sticks]

Nothing available at Copdock test centre?

[guy]

No, closest available is Wellingborough!

I tried online and thought it must be a mistake, so phoned up and was told the same thing - I did explain that given how bad I feel that wasn't going to be practical.

It makes me wonder - either there are a hell of a lot of potential cases in the Ipswich area, or the test facility isn't very efficient.

[RobbieGong]

More mask madness, this guys family were all wearing masks and he has medical exemption card, but some folk cant help themselves.

It's ott madness, crazy, unnecessary and worrying https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/08/27/asian-family-chased-out-of-ice-cream-shop-and-called-monkeys-a/

[struth]

More mask madness, this guys family were all wearing masks and he has medical exemption card, but some folk cant help themselves.

It's ott madness, crazy, unnecessary and worrying https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/08/27/asian-family-chased-out-of-ice-cream-shop-and-called-monkeys-a/

and you wonder why i stay in:(

[Folsom]

I thought that the aim was always to keep infection rates to a level that the NHS can handle. I know the rate didn't come close to challenging our capacity to deal with it, but is it not possible this is due to the measures implemented thus far? Many of our members will be elderly or have elderly parents - how would we feel if it came to a point where we were told "Sorry, no room at the inn, you'll have to stay at home with your hot water bottle and inhaler"? It could still happen.

This not me defending the government, after all they're Tories and that is indefensible. But none of us fully understand what we're dealing with.

And I'm not advocating mandatory face masks, just common sense.

Everywhere seems to have an initial influx that is a bit burdensome. But after that things settle down, so we're essentially going from a "keep the capacity marginally occupied" to unoccupied. As in it's hard to gain herd immunity/reduction when you have a very slow drip. Yes I know people go CRAZY over the fact that maybe you can contract it again, but the thing about that is your second contraction might be asymptomatic or nothing more than a cough occasionally for a couple hours and then nothing - as in you may not be spreading it at all. Like how children are not spreaders. The virus could fizzle out pretty easily if everyone contracts that can without huge risk. But in the mean time economies, industries, mental health, etc, are suffering a lot. We also increase the risk of exposure to the weakest immune system by prolonging the amount of time the contagion level is high.

A few things to note. You make the most antibodies while you have it and for awhile after. However you'll continue to make some for life, and they'll ramp up fast if you contract it again.

In my state there's only 1900 "deaths" of which the real number is unknown. They don't classify those that died with light comorbidities, or none at all. All comorbidities are included, and even when they are possibly the cause of death irrespective of cv19, they are still going to be classified as a cv19 death. We potentially have less than 100 direct causes of death in our state. It's hard to say. There's a lot of reasons at hospitals for why things may be inappropriately defined (coding, insurance, etc). The yearly average death count for the state is 60k to begin with. Does that warrant the hysteria? All the problems? The deaths of so many businesses?

People forget that there are lots of ways to die, and people of all ages find ways to die 24/7/365 since the beginning of mankind. It all feels political to me; everything does anymore.

[Marco]

Excellent post. We are *SO* on the same page, Jeremy!!:clap:

Couldn't agree more. I'll comment further later.

Marco.

[struth]

Well I nearly died of the last pandemic, and have no intention of dying with this if its avoidable.

I want to die in bed mounted on a pretty mare lol

[Pigmy Pony]

Well I nearly died of the last pandemic, and have no intention of dying with this if its avoidable.

I want to die in bed mounted on a pretty mare lol

Well it's not all doom and gloom Grant - Which? Magazine think you may be driving the UK's most reliable car :)

[Mikeandvan]

I said over on PFM that deaths in nursing homes are 'hardly tragic' and I got called a monster.:lol::lol::lol: I mean its so tragic, she died at 83, such a loss of life!

[Mikeandvan]

You know when I'm 83 though I'll be gripping on like a monkey on speed. If I make it that long, I doubt it somehow.

[Mikeandvan]

In Brighton & Hove in the past week - 12 known cases of Covid 19 yet we still have to rearrange our lives around this scamdemic. Just another excuse to build more cycle lanes, meanwhile the Liberals over on PFM are having kittens because they think everyone apart from them is a fascist! lols

[walpurgis]

I said over on PFM that deaths in nursing homes are 'hardly tragic' and I got called a monster.:lol::lol::lol: I mean its so tragic, she died at 83, such a loss of life!

I'd have a rethink if I were you.

[Mikeandvan]

I'd have a rethink if I were you.

Mate, anything over 80 is a Brucie Bonus, ffs.

[Folsom]

Well I nearly died of the last pandemic, and have no intention of dying with this if its avoidable.

I want to die in bed mounted on a pretty mare lol

A lot of my thinking of strategy I'm sure people will think is self serving, but honestly it is also in mind to protect people such as yourself better. We need people like you with time to post amazing food pics.

[Pigmy Pony]

I said over on PFM that deaths in nursing homes are 'hardly tragic' and I got called a monster.:lol::lol::lol: I mean its so tragic, she died at 83, such a loss of life!

I would never go so far as to call you a monster, Mike. Godzilla - now that's what I call a monster! :eek: You could perhaps do with a bit more empathy though, that 83 year-old was someone's sister, mother, grandma.

Complacency around the disease seems to be on the rise among the great unwashed, and I reckon the winding up of the "Government's Daily Briefing" played a part - although it was boring with a capital B and was open to ridicule, at least it looked like it was being taken seriously. Cutting it sends a message that we're over the worst and can relax a bit. Wrong.

[tapid]

Bit hard to keep the briefings going though when the daily death count ( still sad ) is so low. Otherwise we might as well have one for daily road deaths or somart. Sadly I think they will be back at some point.

[Puffin]

It is always all about the MONEY. The Govt put the right royal shits up most of us in March and those with a speck of brain adhered to staying at home and maintaining social distancing. Then the million/billionaires (don't most in Govt have financial interests in big Corps and businesses?) realised that they were becoming poor too quickly! So...lots of scuttling around in the corridors of power went on and they had to get the plebs out of the trenches and over the top regardless of the consequences. You must get back to work, you will be safe, you will be saving the country, you will be heroes.......yes you are canon fodder. Then our esteemed leader disappears and pulls a stunt pretending to be camping! Look at me...I am just like you, poor and having to camp for my holiday ffs.

[Macca]

It is always all about the MONEY. The Govt put the right royal shits up most of us in March and those with a speck of brain adhered to staying at home and maintaining social distancing. Then the million/billionaires (don't most in Govt have financial interests in big Corps and businesses?) realised that they were becoming poor too quickly! So...lots of scuttling around in the corridors of power went on and they had to get the plebs out of the trenches and over the top regardless of the consequences. You must get back to work, you will be safe, you will be saving the country, you will be heroes.......yes you are canon fodder. Then our esteemed leader disappears and pulls a stunt pretending to be camping! Look at me...I am just like you, poor and having to camp for my holiday ffs.

Although if the alternative is economic collapse what do you do? Rich people will be immune to that, us plebs won't be. There's no easy answer.

[Marco]

I would never go so far as to call you a monster, Mike. Godzilla - now that's what I call a monster! :eek: You could perhaps do with a bit more empathy though, that 83 year-old was someone's sister, mother, grandma.


What Mikey meant to say was:


Mate, anything under 80 is a Brucie Bonus, ffs.


He's an honest chap, and was just relating to his potential 'conquests':D

Personally, I think he's aiming a bit high...

Marco.

[Marco]

Although if the alternative is economic collapse what do you do? Rich people will be immune to that, us plebs won't be..

Speak for yourself;)

Marco.

[struth]

think its a diservice to all the families who lost a loved one even if they were old.. old doesnt mean useless, and useless doesnt mean unloved.

[guy]

think its a diservice to all the families who lost a loved one even if they were old.. old doesnt mean useless, and useless doesnt mean unloved.

well put

[guy]

Nothing available at Copdock test centre?

Just had a swab at Ipswich hospital - my daughter is an OT at the hospital and living with us, so I qualify for a quicker appointment.

Bloody hell they go deep with those swabs.

[Pigmy Pony]

Just had a swab at Ipswich hospital - my daughter is an OT at the hospital and living with us, so I qualify for a quicker appointment.

Bloody hell they go deep with those swabs.

You're not wrong Guy, that swab got my gag reflex big time! I really should speak to Marco, find out how he's learned to overcome it :eyebrows:

[RobbieGong]

You're not wrong Guy, that swab got my gag reflex big time! I really should speak to Marco, find out how he's learned to overcome it :eyebrows:

:eek: :lol:

[guy]

You're not wrong Guy, that swab got my gag reflex big time! I really should speak to Marco, find out how he's learned to overcome it :eyebrows:

It was my first time though :)

[Marco]

You're not wrong Guy, that swab got my gag reflex big time! I really should speak to Marco, find out how he's learned to overcome it :eyebrows:

I thought you'd be used to 'cavity searches' by now!:D

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

I thought you'd be used to 'cavity searches' by now!:D

Marco.

They did send in a search party, and they were never seen again :(

[Gazjam]

Although if the alternative is economic collapse what do you do? Rich people will be immune to that, us plebs won't be. There's no easy answer.

“And so it goes...”

unfortunately.

[Marco]

Hear, hear - the natives are getting restless, and fed up with much of this bullshit [watch the video]: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/08/30/piers-corbyn-says-he-has-been-fined-a-10-000-for-organising-anti/

:more::more:

:clapclapclap:

I agree with every word that the protesters who spoke said!! And now you know one of the reasons why at the last general election I voted for Corbyn, as he has the same views and militant tendencies in that respect as his son... £10k well spent, my man - don't put up with being gagged!!

The strength of feeling shown there will only grow, as the impact of this virus continues to diminish [and here I'm talking about in terms of hospital admissions or deaths, not CASES, because as we all know, case stats can't be relied upon, due to inaccurate and unreliable tests], yet returning to normal [that is the normal we enjoyed before this pandemic] still seems far away.

And the longer that state of affairs remains, whilst the impact of the virus, in terms of what really matters, as I've outlined above, continues to diminish, the more marches and protests we'll see like that, and indeed the bigger and more forceful they'll become.... :trust:

So let's hear it for PEOPLE POWER, and the continual refusal to bend over and COMPLY, relinquishing our freedoms, when there is currently no REAL justification for it!

Marco.

[Folsom]

Good for you England!!!!

Our "protests" (that in major cities means throwing improvised explosives and killing Trump supporters) are not anywhere near that positive :(

[anthonyTD]

Brother, not son!:)


:more::more:

:clapclapclap:


I agree with every word that the protesters who spoke said!! And now you know one of the reasons why at the last general election I voted for Corbyn, as he has the same views and militant tendencies in that respect as his son...
Marco.

[Marco]

Yes, soz, my boob!:doh:

Point still stands, though... Some of the masses, who needed WAKING UP, *are* waking up!:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Nice to see some REAL facts for a change, backed up by cold, hard logic and common sense [not blind unjustified panic]:
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/02/there-is-no-second-wave-were-just-testing-more-oxford-coro/

:clap:

Marco.

[Folsom]

I wonder what the point of the testing even is anymore... Why? If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, looks like a duck... is it a duck?

4 people living in the same house, 2 test positive, 2 test negative, all were sick. (college students near where I live sorta)

I mean, does ANYONE expect it to just go away? Estimates are 10x the tested number, so 60m in the US, and only 6% of 180k~ are direct covid deaths so 11k out of a MINIMUM of 60,000,000 infections. That's 0.0183% , a very generous 0.0183%, probably inflated significantly. The only significant thing is how fast it spreads.

[Macca]

The 'Spanish Flu' which is the closest possible historical equivalent did just go away, probably because it mutated into something far less virulent. So it's not impossible.

The parallels are quite interesting. In the USA they had the same issues regarding locking down and about making mask-wearing compulsory. And the same issues with starting lockdowns too late and ending lockdowns too early. Then, as now, States and cities all handled it differently.

[Folsom]

The 'Spanish Flu' which is the closest possible historical equivalent did just go away, probably because it mutated into something far less virulent. So it's not impossible.

The parallels are quite interesting. In the USA they had the same issues regarding locking down and about making mask-wearing compulsory. And the same issues with starting lockdowns too late and ending lockdowns too early. Then, as now, States and cities all handled it differently.

It's all political jargon here. Even when something is done right it's said to be all wrong. Basically anyone running for election spins it so they are good or their opposition is bad. Everyone tries to use statistics to make someone look bad or good... It's all a giant joke that is really going to hurt a lot of people financially - and maybe overwhelm a few hospitals for a little bit.

[struth]

ive still not got over the swine flu pandemic tbh.. once its hits you hard, it leaves its mark on you unless your lucky. its gathering pace again up here, mostly the younger families at moment, but it could explode again easily. glasgow isnt far away

[Marco]

Did you not read this, daftee:


Nice to see some REAL facts for a change, backed up by cold, hard logic and common sense [not blind unjustified panic]:
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/02/there-is-no-second-wave-were-just-testing-more-oxford-coro/


The only reason that the number of cases is going up is because they're doing more testing...!;)

And of course, as the tests are highly fallible, are likely creating loads of false positives!

As I've said before, worry when the hospitals start filling up and there's a big run on body bags... Joking, but you get my point. In the UK at least, the.whole thing's getting blown WAY, WAY out of proportion.

Marco.

[struth]

My life is on a thread mate.. Something like that could easily finish me. Even the issue with masks is a major problem. If i didnt have asthma now and wasnt so fragile i wouldnt be worried.

[Marco]

Totally get that, mate. I'm not saying not to worry, in your situation that's understandable, but simply to see the bigger picture and the reality of what's happening (*exactly why* cases are on the rise), rather than what's being portrayed in the media!

Marco.

[struth]

The local tesco shipping depot which serves Scotland, n Ireland and n England is 2 miles away and has come down with several cases.
Fortunately I currently use sainsbury [emoji23]

[mad-moon]

We have a case of covid 19 here, in South Tyneside., less than 300 metres across the main road. A staff member of our doctors surgery The Glenn Medical Centre., has tested positive for covid 19......we learned about it initially on Facebook..half a day later, we received text messages from the surgery, informing us of the outbreak there...The Surgery is still open as is the Ashchem chemist/dispensary., which is in the same building..

[struth]

We have a case of covid 19 here, in South Tyneside., less than 300 metres across the main road. A staff member of our doctors surgery The Glenn Medical Centre., has tested positive for covid 19......we learned about it initially on Facebook..half a day later, we received text messages from the surgery, informing us of the outbreak there...The Surgery is still open as is the Ashchem chemist/dispensary., which is in the same building..I had to go to daughters and child sit for a while today in an kind of emergency. Hoping no damage has been incurred.

[mad-moon]

My life is on a thread mate.. Something like that could easily finish me. Even the issue with masks is a major problem. If i didnt have asthma now and wasnt so fragile i wouldnt be worried.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat Grant...if this gets a hold of me I'm finished...This is still being taken with a pinch of salt by ignorant people...The kids are back to school shortly, if they are not back already..what happens when kids become carriers taking it home to their family members and other families too??..and as for there not being a second wave..I'm sceptical..

[Folsom]

Asthma might be beneficial against Covid.

If testing increases and cases are therefor higher, and a lot of tests are negative but the person is certainly positive... That just means it's not a big threat. I have no idea why more cases is a problem if there's no impact...

[Marco]

have no idea why more cases is a problem if there's no impact...

Precisely. Or indeed, little impact... I wonder how many cases of flu we'll have this winter, and how much national 'panic' it will attract?;)

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat Grant...if this gets a hold of me I'm finished...This is still being taken with a pinch of salt by ignorant people...The kids are back to school shortly, if they are not back already..what happens when kids become carriers taking it home to their family members and other families too??..and as for there not being a second wave..I'm sceptical..

The country seems to be broadly divided into three groups, those at high risk who are rightly concerned, those at low risk who say 'what's the problem?' and those who may or may not be at risk, but will follow the 'science' on the off chance that it helps to keep us safe. Group three are thankfully in the majority. None of us are experts, not even the experts, so why not err on the side of caution?

Educating the kids is a problem though, dunno what the answer is there. Perhaps equipping all the parents with a blackboard, chalk and a cane.

[walpurgis]

The country seems to be broadly divided into three groups, those at high risk who are rightly concerned, those at low risk who say 'what's the problem?' and those who may or may not be at risk, but will follow the 'science' on the off chance that it helps to keep us safe. Group three are thankfully in the majority. None of us are experts, not even the experts, so why not err on the side of caution?.

Sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately, I fall in the first group, as I suspect quite a few members here may.

[anthonyTD]

Intersting!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/science/covid-19-vaccine-diy.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

[Folsom]

Intersting!
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/science/covid-19-vaccine-diy.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

:rolleyes:

[struth]

virus figures up again.. 3k for uk.. 200+ in scotland.. maybe the way its going to continue:)

[Marco]

Of course, but we're going round in circles a wee bit.... MORE testing, means MORE cases are revealed.,simples. It doesn't necessarily mean that the virus is spreading, just that we're more aware than ever of where its presence exists:)

As I said before, come back in when/if (hopefully NOT) hospitals are filling up again with Covid casualties, and folks are dying [ultimately those are the stats that REALLY matter], otherwise such updates don't really service much purpose, other than simply going over old ground...

Marco.

[struth]

sorry im sure..:rolleyes:

[Marco]

Come on, it wasn't meant that way!:D

I'd just like to see more hope and positivity here, than doom and gloom [there's more than enough of that, daily, on the national TV news on this subject] - *unless* the doom and gloom is genuinely justified!

:exactly:

Marco.

[mad-moon]

I thought that to be tested, you had to have symptoms of the Virus..no Symptoms...no test....or am I missing something here??

[Marco]

No, I think you can also volunteer to be tested, in order to ascertain if you've already had the virus (experienced the symptoms before) thus developed antibodies, not just if you're currently experiencing them, although the latter is the only thing now of any real signifiance, in terms of monitoring and controllong the spread of the virus.

This article sums up the current situation and also the point I've just made: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/06/nearly-3-000-new-covid-19-cases-in-uka-s-biggest-daily-increase/

Key quote:


Fortunately, the daily reported numbers of deaths due to Covid-19 remain very low, with a seven-day rolling average of just seven deaths per day.


Whilst the contents of the whole of the article linked to are valid and worth considering/being wary of, the above is the stat that *really* matters.

So whilst some concern is justified and caution should continue to be taken, in terms of controlling the spread of the virus, the fact is that until the stats show a significant rise in hospitalisations or deaths, then in real terms the situation we're facing hasn't become any more serious, especially when the rise in case numbers is almost certainly intrinsically linked with the rise in testing, and also when taking into account false positives.

What will be key, in the coming weeks and months, is how many of these new cases turn into something serious, or simply amount to nothing.

That will then provide an indication of how things are likely to pan out. The other consideration of course is that the virus could've now mutated into something LESS VIRULENT, and therefore even though it *appears* that more people are being infected, less are becoming seriously ill or dying.

I do hope that's the case:)

Marco.

[mad-moon]

https://www.gov.uk/get-coronavirus-test

you can only be tested if you have symptoms...or unless you are asked to do so, which will be key workers and I would imagine places like airports and the like....

[struth]

Come on, it wasn't meant that way!:D

I'd just like to see more hope and positivity here, than doom and gloom [there's more than enough of that, daily, on the national TV news on this subject] - *unless* the doom and gloom is genuinely justified!

:exactly:

Marco.No probs. I won't post any more gloom.

[Marco]

Lol... That's entirely up to you, daftee, but it would be nice for this thread to act as an antidote to the constant (and depressing) fear-mongering portrayed by the media, in reference to this 'pandemic', unless of course, as I said, there is a genuine reason to be gloomy, based on what I outlined earlier.

In the meantime, let's all just live our lives as best (and as normally) as we can, with a smile on our faces:)

Marco.

[Marco]

https://www.gov.uk/get-coronavirus-test

you can only be tested if you have symptoms...or unless you are asked to do so, which will be key workers and I would imagine places like airports and the like....

Ok, but unless you look obviously ill, say, have a fever or are coughing violently, how will they know whether or not you have symptoms?

Other than a fever, they can't test you for symptoms - all they can do is act upon information provided by the person wanting to be tested, and in that respect they could be suffering from mild symptoms that aren't detectable [or simply be lying, in order to find out if they've had the virus and recovered from it], either of which when tested may lead to showing a positive result for Covid.

Marco.

[mad-moon]

Ok, but unless you look obviously ill, say, have a fever or are coughing violently, how will they know whether or not you have symptoms?

Other than a fever, they can't test you for symptoms - all they can do is act upon information provided by the person wanting to be tested, and in that respect they could be suffering from mild symptoms that aren't detectable [or simply be lying, in order to find out if they've had it and recovered from it], either of which when tested may lead to showing a positive result for Covid.

Marco.

Ok Marco...

[mad-moon]

This dated today...just something else that isn't happening.....

https://www.sunderlandecho.com/health/coronavirus/all-sunderland-schools-restaurants-and-businesses-closed-due-coronavirus-outbreak-2963179?fbclid=IwAR3sXj2NtOz46B8cCDvf4HwRRSMFz6Hir kW5c7DUTe5-FJmYYAt-Uy3yqmw

[Marco]

Yes, but as I've said, it's all about CASES [cases aren't necessarily a problem, as it may aid herd immunity - had you considered that?] and so as far as the contents of that article are concerned, IMHO, it represents a total over-reaction!:doh:

Marco.

[Marco]

Some more sense, with regard to this 'pandemic': https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/coronavirus-spikes-spain-france-u-k-raise-specter-second-wave-n1239454

Again, the whole article is valid, but THIS is the key quote and what matters MOST:


For the moment, the important number is the number of sick persons, and the number of sick people is not increasing," said Laurent Toubiana, a leading epidemiologist at the French Institute of Health and Medical Research. "The number of deaths are not increasing. So we shouldn't be getting worked up".


...but that's the problem: too many folks ARE getting unnecessarily worked up!!:doh:

Also worth bearing in mind, from an expert:


Obviously, we are already in the second wave," said Hassam. "It's our responsibility to be careful but I don't think there's going to be a huge second wave. Hopefully not."


The key bit there, for me, is the statement of us already being *IN the second wave*, and dealing with it, although contrary to what he says, unfortunately it's not 'obvious' to some, and certainly not what's being portrayed by the media. However, I think his statement is absolutely true, and so therefore there should be no fear of a "second wave" to come....

The fact is, we're in it already! :exactly:

Marco.

[Marco]

And lastly, this bit from the article is most certainly worth considering and thinking about *very carefully*:


As long as the death and sickness levels remain constant — even as cases rise — it's unclear whether the hand-wringing over an anticipated second wave is justified.

Even with France's ramped-up testing, only about 3% of tests come back positive, said Toubiana, a statistically insignificant figure that's consistent with the testing's margin of error.

"We have another epidemic. We have an epidemic of panic, of fear," said Toubiana. "So this fear and panic makes us not reflect on what is really happening."


BRAVO:clap:

Good to see a dose of reality, for a change, diluting the bullshit... I'd like to see a damn sight less fear and panic, and damn sight MORE calm rationality and common sense!

Marco.

[Marco]

In other news: https://mailchi.mp/bigbrotherwatch/digital-id-cards-not-on-our-watch-6468463210?e=9509ffdbfa

Keep up the good work, Silkie!:clap::clap:

I hope everyone can see though, the direction that the 'powers that be' want to take things, *if *they're allowed. We simply must NOT let them win [seeking to spy on and control us] and continue fighting tooth and nail to DEFEND AND PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS AND RIGHT TO PRIVACY!!

:guns::guns:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Why ohh why are people traveling for miles just to get a covid-19 test, when they don't even have any symptoms, is it like a me first, i'm more important than you scenario, or what ? :scratch:
Here's an idea, why not stay home, away from any threat of catching the virus, and let the genuinely ill people get the test, instead of you people wasting resourses on the pretence of your own self importance! :doh::rolleyes:
Sorry, but it needed to be said! :steam:
A...

[mad-moon]

Why ohh why are people traveling for miles just to get a covid-19 test, when they don't even have any symptoms, is it like a me first, i'm more important than you scenario, or what ? :scratch:
Here's an idea, why not stay home, away from any threat of catching the virus, and let the genuinely ill people get the test, instead of you people wasting resourses on the pretence of your own self importance! :doh::rolleyes:
Sorry, but it needed to be said! :steam:
A...

I guess you mean, why are people lying through their teeth, saying they have symptoms, so they can get a test, instead of leaving the tests for people who genuinely do have symptoms..and possibly the virus?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-getting-tested

[Marco]

Indeed... As I said earlier, Alan, the rules may be the rules, but that's not going to stop idiots from abusing them.

This is one of the reasons why I swerved the testing when it came to Wrexham, as by then I no longer had symptoms [I'm pretty sure I've had Covid], even though it would've been useful to have found out for sure, or rather as sure as the accuracy of the tests allow. Save them for those who need them.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed Alan, and governments know all too well when they dream up these schemes that they can always rely on the genral public to do the wrong thing!:doh:
I guess you mean, why are people lying through their teeth, saying they have symptoms, so they can get a test, instead of leaving the tests for people who genuinely do have symptoms..and possibly the virus?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-getting-tested

[walpurgis]

I guess you mean, why are people lying through their teeth, saying they have symptoms, so they can get a test, instead of leaving the tests for people who genuinely do have symptoms..and possibly the virus?

And you probably have those who may just have a cold or be feeling a bit under the weather clamouring for pointless tests which are not definitive anyway so after spending billions on them nobody is any the wiser. It just gives the appearance of 'something being done' by the government, who have been floundering from the start.

[dave2010]

Indeed... As I said earlier, Alan, the rules may be the rules, but that's not going to stop idiots from abusing them.

This is one of the reasons why I swerved the testing when it came to Wrexham, as by then I no longer had symptoms [I'm pretty sure I've had Covid], even though it would've been useful to have found out for sure, or rather as sure as the accuracy of the tests allow. Save them for those who need them.
I have no idea whether we might have had coronavirus or not. We might have done, or might have been afflicted by some other ailments. Since the tests don't seem reliable enough to give us information with any reasonable certainty, and since we're not going out of our way to meet people, or spread infections, the testing exercise seems - for us at least - pointless.

I can imagine also some people really not wanting to know - if they felt that their own experience - (or possible experience) - hadn't been too bad. Someone who "should" self isolate under the current rules, but would lose financially in the short term, might be quite happy not to be tested. It's all very well for better off people to work at home, or keep away from others, but some poorer people may feel that they have no choice other than to carry on working - and possibly spreading any illnesses they may (or may not ...) have. That kind of behaviour, which may be either accidental or deliberate, might be likely to produce hot spots of coronavirus amongst poorer sections of our society. I doubt that our legal system would really want to chase up and penalise people unless it was very obvious that some people had specific knowledge of their condition and were deliberately reckless.

Some people will be really ill, and will seek medical help, but many people won't ask for help unless things get really bad - so will fly under the radar.

[Macca]

I've had a letter from the NHS asking me to take an antibody test.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

FFS how did you manage to get that? is it a trial or due to something else ongoing??

[Macca]

FFS how did you manage to get that? is it a trial or due to something else ongoing??

I did nothing, it just came in the post. It's an ICL study. They say they want to estimate how many people in England may already have been infected. It says the test is not accurate enough to confirm whether an individual has had Covid 19 infection or not though.

[Marco]

I've had a letter from the NHS asking me to take an antibody test.

Asking, so not demanding? What's the process involved?:)

Marco.

[Macca]

Log onto the website, register, they post you a test kit, you do the test and post it back.

[Marco]

Does it involve having a wank into a wee plastic bottle?:D;)

Marco.

[guy]

I did nothing, it just came in the post. It's an ICL study. They say they want to estimate how many people in England may already have been infected. It says the test is not accurate enough to confirm whether an individual has had Covid 19 infection or not though.

Strange data analysis - inaccurate test results being used to estimate how many have been infected in England.

I think they just want your DNA for something :lol:

[Marco]

It'll be to facilitate the Covid tracking chip;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Does it involve having a wank into a wee plastic bottle?:D;)

Marco.

Yes it does. They even post you out a jazz mag to help with that.

[Barry]

Shouldn't that be a 'jizz' mag? :D

[Marco]

Yes it does. They even post you out a jazz mag to help with that.

Quality... I hope it's a copy of 'Peachy-Assed Chicks with Attitude', and full of Lindsay Lohan-types, so it pushes your buttons!:eyebrows:;)

Marco.

[dave2010]

Yes it does. They even post you out a jazz mag to help with that.Obviously trying to improve the response rate! [though a Jazz mag might not do that, other suggestions made here might be more effective ....]

[Pigmy Pony]

I don't need an antibody test to tell me what I already know, that I had Covid back in March. The cat had it too.

[Mikeandvan]

Sweden doing well in the Covid sweepstakes, much lower cases than Norway which locked down properly, well done Sweden, exposure is the answer.

[Marco]

Indeed, which is why obsessing over cases, to the extent that's currently happening, and some of the lockdown decisions that have been made on that basis, is not much better than idiocy, especially with all the contradictory messages being sent out, in terms of the following of rules!:doh:

Let's see in due course how many of these cases turn into serious hospitalisations or deaths (hopefully not), but I suspect not many, despite the daily OTT fear-mongering by the media. Think about how long these 'spikes' and increased cases have been occurring for now (many weeks - how long ago was it that Bradford and Preston were locked down for that reason?) and yet so far the increased cases have had little to no impact on deaths...

So what does that most likely tell you?

And they've been going on about the danger of a 'second wave' for even longer!:rolleyes:

How long ago now was it that beaches were rammed with people sunning themselves, which was supposed to cause it, or all the other large public gatherings that have taken place since? And still nothing!

Time to wake up folks and see that you're largely being fooled....

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Boris will keep the hysteria up as a blanket for his Brexit balls up.

[Macca]

Boris will keep the hysteria up as a blanket for his Brexit balls up.

Interesting observation. On the one hand you have people criticising the government for sending the children back to school and people back to work because it's 'too dangerous' and on the other hand you have people criticising the government for creating panic and hysteria over Covid when it is unwarranted. Which is it? Because it can't be both.

[guy]

Depends on starting viewpoint, personally I think Covid and Brexit are both a cover to take minds off Andy and Ghislaine

[anthonyTD]

You could well be right! Lets face it, his involvement with he who shall not be named has the potential to bring down the monarch.
Depends on starting viewpoint, personally I think Covid and Brexit are both a cover to take minds off Andy and Ghislaine

[dave2010]

Time to wake up folks and see that you're largely being fooled....
Difficult to know, or be sure of that.

Re Sweden - I've not kept up with the latest situation there. A while back it was doing relatively badly, but although its absolute status has probably not changed much, other countries may now have started to do worse.

As yet we don't know how things are going to turn out. Michael Portillo's train journey programme last night was in Sweden - presumably filmed in 2019, The train went through Östersund, and it turned out that Östersund had experienced significant issues about a hundred years ago with the so-called Spanish flu. An interesting comment was that there was a second wave, and it was more virulent than the first. It is often assumed that a second wave of a virus infection - if it occurs - may be milder than the first time round, but this would seem to not necessarily be true.

So at the moment we are still in a state of uncertainty - and we are not necessarily being fooled by anyone urging caution. We won't really know until we apply hindsight.

[anthonyTD]

:)
Difficult to know, or be sure of that.

Re Sweden - I've not kept up with the latest situation there. A while back it was doing relatively badly, but although it's absolute status has probably not changed much, other countries may now have started to do worse.

As yet we don't know how things are going to turn out. Michael Portillo's train journey programme last night was in Sweden - presumably filmed in 2019, The train went through Östersund, and it turned out that Östersund had experienced significant issues about a hundred years ago with the so-called Spanish flu. An interesting comment was that there was a second wave, and it was more virulent than the first. It is often assumed that a second wave of a virus infection - if it occurs - may be milder than the first time round, but this would seem to not necessarily be true.

So at the moment we are still in a state of uncertainty - and we are not necessarily being fooled by anyone urging caution. We won't really know until we apply hindsight.

[struth]

a lot of differences in size, population density between the 2 countries to start with

[Marco]

Difficult to know, or be sure of that.

Re Sweden - I've not kept up with the latest situation there. A while back it was doing relatively badly, but although it's absolute status has probably not changed much, other countries may now have started to do worse.

As yet we don't know how things are going to turn out. Michael Portillo's train journey programme last night was in Sweden - presumably filmed in 2019, The train went through Östersund, and it turned out that Östersund had experienced significant issues about a hundred years ago with the so-called Spanish flu. An interesting comment was that there was a second wave, and it was more virulent than the first. It is often assumed that a second wave of a virus infection - if it occurs - may be milder than the first time round, but this would seem to not necessarily be true.

So at the moment we are still in a state of uncertainty - and we are not necessarily being fooled by anyone urging caution. We won't really know until we apply hindsight.

Yes, but at the moment, IMO, the level of caution is WAY OTT and simply not backed up by figures that justify it! That's my point:)

If, since these 'spikes' occurred (and they started well over a month ago), we'd seen multiple hospitalisations and deaths, as a result, then I could see the point, but that simply hasn't happened - and hardly anyone is considering that very important fact, or indeed questioning it.

And I don't see it happening this time either. There's WAY too much focus on CASES (and levels of infectiousness), and not enough on *actually* how deadly this virus is RIGHT NOW - not what it was like in April, as I believe it has since mutated into something less virulent.

Therefore, I'll stick to my original thoughts on this matter, which is that the situation distinctly stinks of an agenda, and what that agenda is, is yet to be revealed....

Marco.

[mad-moon]

Yes, but at the moment, IMO, the level of caution is WAY OTT and simply not backed up by figures that justify it! That's my point:)

If, since these 'spikes' occurred (and they started well over a month ago), we'd seen multiple hospitalisations and deaths, as a result, then I could see the point, but that simply hasn't happened - and hardly anyone is considering that very important fact, or indeed questioning it.

And I don't see it happening this time either. There's WAY too much focus on CASES (and levels of infectiousness), and not enough on *actually* how deadly this virus is RIGHT NOW - not what it was like in April, as I believe it has since mutated into something less virulent.

Therefore, I'll stick to my original thoughts on this matter, which is that the situation distinctly stinks of an agenda, and what that agenda is, is yet to be revealed....

Marco.

Eeee Marco...you and your conspiracy theories....

[anthonyTD]

The problem is; we only realy knew the first time round we had a problem when people started being admited to hospital, up until then, how do we know how many folk had it ? and just thought it was the usual Flu :scratch: my point is, i think most folk are questioning the reality of the situation, and yes, they are probably using the current situation to impliment things that otherwise they wouldnt have a hope in hell of getting passed the genral public, but i still think there is a potential for this thing to blow up in our faces, if we don't do what's needed to at least safegaurd ourselves, and our nearest and dearest!
Yes, but at the moment, IMO, opinion the level of caution is WAY OTT and simply not backed up by figures that justify it! That's my point:)

If, since these 'spikes' occurred (and they started well over a month ago), we'd seen multiple hospitalisations and deaths, as a result, then I could see the point, but that simply hasn't happened - and hardly anyone is considering that very important fact, or indeed questioning it.

And I don't see it happening this time either. There's WAY too much focus on CASES (and levels of infectiousness), and not enough on *actually* how deadly this virus is RIGHT NOW - not what it was like in April, as I believe it has since mutated into something less virulent.

Therefore, I'll stick to my original thoughts on this matter, which is that the situation distinctly stinks of an agenda, and what that agenda is, is still to be revealed....

Marco.

[Marco]

Eeee Marco...you and your conspiracy theories....

Lol, not necessarily 'conspiracy theory' - I simply don't believe that some of the decisions being made now by the government don't have an ulterior motive, and have never been one for simply sitting back and accepting what the authorities tell me is true!

I think that's a healthy mindset to have, resulting in being less susceptible to being brainwashed and controlled:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Anthony, I'll get to your post after lunch!:cool:

Marco.

[mad-moon]

The problem is; we only realy knew the first time round we had a problem when people started being admited to hospital, up until then, how do we know how many folk had it ? and just thought it was the usual Flu :scratch: my point is, i think most folk are questioning the reality of the situation, and yes, they are probably using the current situation to impliment things that otherwise they wouldnt have a hope in hell of getting passed the genral public, but i still think there is a potential for this thing to blow up in our faces, if we don't do what's needed to at least safegaurd ourselves, and our nearest and dearest!

but i still think there is a potential for this thing to blow up in our faces, if we don't do what's needed to at least safegaurd ourselves, and our nearest and dearest! :exactly:

[dave2010]

Lol, not necessarily 'conspiracy theory' - I simply don't believe that some of the decisions being made now by the government don't have an ulterior motive, and have never been one for simply sitting back and accepting what the authorities tell me is true!

I think that's a healthy mindset to have, resulting in being less susceptible to being brainwashed and controlled:)
I agree that questioning the government's output and even suspecting that they may have hidden agendas is a good sceptical attitude to have, but re this particular disease I think it has taken quite a long while for sufficient really trustworthy "knowledge" to emerge, and there's still way to go.

We have started to be less cautious, but it might only take a few careless actions to lead to big problems. This thing hasn't gone away yet.

[Macca]

Sweden did not have an enforced lockdown but they did advise their people to be cautious, to practice social distancing and so on.

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

[struth]

Sweden did not have an enforced lockdown but they did advise their people to be cautious, to practice social distancing and so on.

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

Their pop is less than twice Scotlands, yet country is about 5/6 times bigger.. Their biggest city density is a tenth that of Glasgow, so its an easier thing to keep a lid on. Also as you say they are a more ameniable, better educated and wealthier population so all those factors are in their favour.

[mad-moon]

Sweden did not have an enforced lockdown but they did advise their people to be cautious, to practice social distancing and so on.

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

an unfortunate choice of words....

[Macca]

an unfortunate choice of words....

lol - that took me a minute to figure it out.

[Marco]

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?:)

Meanwhile, this report is worth reading: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/12/uk-coronavirus-cases-rise-above-3-000-for-second-day-in-a-row/

And whilst duly considering all therein, I still find myself strongly agreeing with one of the comments below afterwards, from Rhoderick:


Depends if you believe that its the number of covid cases that is the issue, rather than the number of severe cases, which is a vastly different thing, and would determine what sensible and proportionate measures you take to control it... Focus on serious cases not the vast number of those with few or nil symptoms !!!!


Hear, hear, bro! :exactly:

Marco.

[Marco]

Their pop is less than twice Scotlands, yet country is about 5/6 times bigger.. Their biggest city density is a tenth that of Glasgow, so its an easier thing to keep a lid on. Also as you say they are a more ameniable, better educated and wealthier population so all those factors are in their favour.

Not sure there exists a correlation between common sense/intelligence and the above, as there are plenty of clever folk with almost no common sense, coupled with an inability to act reasonably or responsibly, and who live in a clement environment!;)

However, I do take your point on board, but regardless think that there was/is significant merit in the Swedish approach. No solution is perfect or without risk in dealing with this virus, but for me, there's more right about their approach than wrong.

And I think it would produce a decent outcome in most countries equipped with the right infrastructure to implement it - and yes I consider that the UK comes into that category.

Marco.

[mad-moon]

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?:)

Meanwhile, this report is worth reading: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/12/uk-coronavirus-cases-rise-above-3-000-for-second-day-in-a-row/

And whilst duly considering all therein, I still find myself strongly agreeing with one of the comments below afterwards, from Rhoderick:



Hear, hear, bro! :exactly:

Marco.

For gods sake....so there is someone with a few minor symptons...but what about that person passing it on to someone, who takes the virus into their bodies in a way that could kill them/cause long lasting disability...the bloody thing has to be controlled simply for those reasons...we're headed towards another lock down, because of people who have few or no symptoms, but they carry the virus and spread it without knowing, to people who are more susceptible to the virus than them...and even if people are not dying from covid 19 right now...they are debilitated for the rest of their lives in one way or another..which could/will lead to an earlier death than a natural one....all cases are serious..god give me strength...

[mad-moon]

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?:)

Meanwhile, this report is worth reading: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/12/uk-coronavirus-cases-rise-above-3-000-for-second-day-in-a-row/

And whilst duly considering all therein, I still find myself strongly agreeing with one of the comments below afterwards, from Rhoderick:



Hear, hear, bro! :exactly:

Marco.

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?

Bats Marco....BATS...those things that fly and carry disease....

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

[Macca]

I think that if we look at the hard facts all becomes clear.

If we consider that a safe, fully tested vaccine will take at least a couple of years, and that the probability of developing a successful vaccine is less than 50%, then locking down until a vaccine becomes available is not an option unless we accept economic collapse. Which is not an option.

This leaves herd immunity as the only option.

Now consider that in most of the world - South America, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, most of Oceania - lack of money and infrastructure means a 2 year lockdown is not an option, so herd immunity will happen by default, along with the number of deaths that will mean.

So once the virus has gone through the 2 thirds of the worlds population that those places comprise how realistic is it that the wealthy countries can still isolate from that? Maybe if you are a small backwater where pretty much no-one goes, like New Zealand. But for countries like UK, USA etc, which have tens of millions of people going in and out of them every year, it just is not possible. So it is going to happen regardless.

The scientists knew all this from the off and will have advised the government accordingly.

Some people seem to think that the purpose of lockdown was to eradicate the virus. Incorrect. The sole purpose of lockdown was to ensure the health service was not overwhelmed by too many people catching the virus all at the same time. That was it.

Now we have local lockdowns for exactly the same purpose. It's a controlled progress towards herd immunity instead of an uncontrolled one. There is no alternative to that strategy.

[Marco]

For gods sake....so there is someone with a few minor symptons...but what about that person passing it on to someone, who takes the virus into their bodies in a way that could kill them/cause long lasting disability...the bloody thing has to be controlled simply for those reasons...we're headed towards another lock down, because of people who have few or no symptoms, but they carry the virus and spread it without knowing, to people who are more susceptible to the virus than them...and even if people are not dying from covid 19 right now...they are debilitated for the rest of their lives in one way or another..which could/will lead to an earlier death than a natural one....all cases are serious..god give me strength...

Calm down dear!:D;)

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, but you're also making rather a lot of assumptions, not currently based on proven fact.

Whilst respecting what you're saying, I still stand by my view that there is way too much fuss [and more importantly restrictions being imposed on people's freedoms and ability to earn a living] being made over cases, which I don't consider *currently* is justified.

Let's see where we are in a month's time, in terms of seeing exactly what these cases have developed into, or not.

What I'll be looking for is if those cases clearly haven't developed into something more serious in the short term (we simply don't know enough yet about this virus to predict its long term effects), is some of the restrictions imposed lifted and getting life back to some semblance of normality.

The problem often with these things is that many of the restrictions imposed by the authorities during a 'crisis' never fully go away, long after the crisis is over...

Marco.

[Marco]

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?

Bats Marco....BATS...those things that fly and carry disease....

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

Ah, the bat theory... Yes, the joke works providing you believe that that's how this whole thing started!

Maybes aye, maybes no...;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I think that if we look at the hard facts all becomes clear.

If we consider that a safe, fully tested vaccine will take at least a couple of years, and that the probability of developing a successful vaccine is less than 50%, then locking down until a vaccine becomes available is not an option unless we accept economic collapse. Which is not an option.

This leaves herd immunity as the only option.

Now consider that in most of the world - South America, Africa, the Indian subcontinent, most of Oceania - lack of money and infrastructure means a 2 year lockdown is not an option, so herd immunity will happen by default, along with the number of deaths that will mean.

So once the virus has gone through the 2 thirds of the worlds population that those places comprise how realistic is it that the wealthy countries can still isolate from that? Maybe if you are a small backwater where pretty much no-one goes, like New Zealand. But for countries like UK, USA etc, which have tens of millions of people going in and out of them every year, it just is not possible. So it is going to happen regardless.

The scientists knew all this from the off and will have advised the government accordingly.

Some people seem to think that the purpose of lockdown was to eradicate the virus. Incorrect. The sole purpose of lockdown was to ensure the health service was not overwhelmed by too many people catching the virus all at the same time. That was it.

Now we have local lockdowns for exactly the same purpose. It's a controlled progress towards herd immunity instead of an uncontrolled one. There is no alternative to that strategy.

I agree with all of that, and that herd immunity is really the only effective (nature's way) of dealing with this virus, the same as we've dealt with many others before it, over centuries, but that doesn't detract from the point I've just made.

Too many folks, for justified reasons I guess in some cases, are being brainwashed into believing that this serious situation [yes I don't for one second deny that] is MORE serious than it actually is, and are subsequently being swept along in a sea of panic and fear, and with any rational thought going out of the window!

That is simply how I see it, based on the evidence currently in front of me.

Marco.

[Macca]

Too many folks, for justified reasons I guess in some cases, are being brainwashed into believing that this serious situation [yes I don't for one second deny that] is MORE serious than it actually is, and are subsequently being swept along in a sea of panic and fear. That is simply how I see it, based on the evidence currently in front of me.

Marco.

I don't think they are being brainwashed, but you see this with pretty much everything from nuclear war, to Trump, to Brexit, to climate change.

Some people just like to concentrate on the negatives and work themselves up over things that, in all probability, will never happen. Either because they have some sort of political/ideological motivation to try to panic others, or because they just have that sort of depressing outlook on life. Which must be a very miserable way to exist.

[Marco]

I don't think they are being brainwashed, but you see this with pretty much everything from nuclear war, to Trump, to Brexit, to climate change.


I agree, but the fact is they ARE being brainwashed if they automatically believe everything that the government and mainstream media are telling them, with regard to this 'pandemic'! And unfortunately that seems to be the case, as so often all you hear from the general public is the 'party line' [what the powers that be WANT you to believe is true - propaganda] being trotted out time and time again:doh:

There is a total lack of free thinking. People need to start showing more of a propensity to think for themselves than simply allowing others to do the thinking for them, and worse, being unfailingly subservient. That's the big problem - and it's a dangerous one, too!


Some people just like to concentrate on the negatives and work themselves up over things that, in all probability, will never happen. Either because they have some sort of political/ideological motivation to try to panic others, or because they just have that sort of depressing outlook on life. Which must be a very miserable way to exist.

Absolutely, and it fucks me off like you wouldn't believe. I've always had a low tolerance threshold for 'glass half-empty' depressing, miserable bastards, who insist on bringing everyone down to their sad level, and who seem incapable of ever looking on the bright (or even logical) side of life, and instead preferring to live constantly under a black cloud!:rolleyes:

I'm afraid I've never been a 'worrier' or someone who panics easily, and so my motto has always been: 'Worry about something WHEN it happens, not beforehand, as it may never occur'! :exactly:

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Soz, don't get it... Could one of you explain the 'joke' to me?

Bats Marco....BATS...those things that fly and carry disease....

the thinking being that their populace was sufficiently well educated and aware of the dangers to do this off their own bat rather than be made to do it. It wasn't a policy of encouraging herd immunity.

I got the joke straightaway Alan, our brains must be wired the same way. Now you're worried aren't you? :D

[Macca]

I agree, but the fact is they ARE being brainwashed if they automatically believe everything that the government and mainstream media are telling them with regard to this 'pandemic'! And unfortunately that seems to be the case, as so often all you hear from the general public is the 'party line' [what the powers that be WANT you to believe is true - propaganda] being trotted out time and time again:doh:

.

The problem is people regarding the news media as a source of factual information when it isn't nor has it ever been. News media has one purpose - to sell advertising - and to do that they need viewers/readers. So they publish as many bad news stories as they can because that attracts the punters. Truth simply isn't a consideration beyond them being sued.

Even the BBC who don't need to sell advertising still need high viewing figures to continue to justify the licence fee. If nobody is watching why would anyone continue to pay? So they are not immune.

As for taking what politicians say at face value - well, you would need to have lived alone in a cave up until yesterday and have absolutely no knowledge of history or politics. I suppose there might be some people who fit that description but there can't be many.

[Pigmy Pony]

Some people seem to think that the purpose of lockdown was to eradicate the virus. Incorrect. The sole purpose of lockdown was to ensure the health service was not overwhelmed by too many people catching the virus all at the same time. That was it.



The government made this perfectly clear right from the off. They weren't lying in this regard. Some people may have forgotten this, or were too thick to understand it. As we head towards winter it would make sense to me to ramp up the caution, until we know better. Christmas will be a bit shit, but then it usually is. Will be a good excuse to avoid your relatives though, so every cloud and all that ;)

[Macca]

The government made this perfectly clear right from the off. They weren't lying in this regard. Some people may have forgotten this, or were too thick to understand it. As we head towards winter it would make sense to me to ramp up the caution, until we know better. Christmas will be a bit shit, but then it usually is. Will be a good excuse to avoid your relatives though, so every cloud and all that ;)

Sadly my relatives are not in the least bit bothered, we already had a family do a couple of months back. So no escaping from Xmas for me.

[Pigmy Pony]

Ah, the bat theory... Yes, the joke works providing you believe that that's how this whole thing started!

Maybes aye, maybes no...;)

Marco.

"...do this off their own government-sponsored attempts to cull the old and sick, and control the masses through tracking technology..." - no that joke just doesn't work quite right. Bats is a better fit :) Sorry couldn't resist :D

[Marco]

Lol... Unfortunately there may be more truth in the former than your (dare) to think!

Marco.

[Marco]

The problem is people regarding the news media as a source of factual information when it isn't nor has it ever been. News media has one purpose - to sell advertising - and to do that they need viewers/readers. So they publish as many bad news stories as they can because that attracts the punters. Truth simply isn't a consideration beyond them being sued.


Indeed, they just seem to take it as 'Gospel' and rarely CHALLENGE or QUESTION it... I've always been the type, even as a kid, who's wanted to know 'WHY?' or 'HOW?'. Why does that happen, why does this happen, why do they do that, why do they behave that way'. 'How come this is this way, or this is that way'?

I've never been one to just sit back and 'accept' something without first rationalising it in my own head. So WHY can't others be the same?:D;)

Marco.

[Marco]

TChristmas will be a bit shit, but then it usually is. Will be a good excuse to avoid your relatives though, so every cloud and all that ;)

Haha... Different mentality here, I'm afraid. I very much enjoy the company of my friends and family over Christmas, and LOVE Christmas in general. For us, this year will be little different, my dad, one of my friends, Del and me enjoying some top-notch grub and booze, plus choons, in a rather cosy and convivial festive environment:cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

Indeed, they just seem to take it as 'Gospel' and rarely CHALLENGE or QUESTION it... I've always been the type, even since a kid, who's wanted to know 'WHY?' or 'HOW?'. Why does that happen, why does this happen, why do they do that, why do they behave that way'. 'How come this is this way, or this is that way'.

I've never been one to just sit back and 'accept' something without first rationalising it in my own head. So WHY can't others be the same?:D;)

Marco.

I'm the same, especially at work. 'Why are we doing this when it takes hours and achieves nothing when we could be doing this instead?'

At some companies this will brand you as a 'troublemaker'. At others you'll be considered a valuable asset. Sadly the latter type of company are pretty thin on the ground.

[walpurgis]

Same here. I was the main union rep at my work and also offered to represent anybody, union member or not in any discussions with the employer. Anything pointless or stupid was challenged, funny thing is, I got on well with the management. I think they realised I was there to help rather than be a thorn in the side.

[Pigmy Pony]

Haha... Different mentality here, I'm afraid. I very much enjoy the company of my friends and family over Christmas, and LOVE Christmas in general. For us, this year will be little different, my dad, one of my friends, Del and me enjoying some top-notch grub and booze, plus choons, in a rather cosy and convivial festive environment:cool:

Marco.

My message was aimed at your relatives :ner:

[Pigmy Pony]

So WHY can't others be the same?[/B]:D;)

Marco.

I believe most people are born with pretty much the same mentality, but things such as upbringing, health, financial circumstances, and to some degree luck, shape us into what we are today. Of course there will always be some miserable shites for whom nothing is ever good enough. As free thinkers, (yes I consider myself to be one!) we just need to accept that others may think differently, doesn't mean they've been brainwashed ;)

[Marco]

My message was aimed at your relatives :ner:

Ha - love it. No, I think they rather enjoy and appreciate being fussed over and pampered for the day!:D

Marco.

[Marco]

I believe most people are born with pretty much the same mentality, but things such as upbringing, health, financial circumstances, and to some degree luck, shape us into what we are today. Of course there will always be some miserable shites for whom nothing is ever good enough. As free thinkers, (yes I consider myself to be one!) we just need to accept that others may think differently, doesn't mean they've been brainwashed ;)

I do accept that (the post you're referring to was somewhat tongue-in-cheek). However, anyone who comes into the category of swallowing everything that the government and media tells them is true, without challenging it [and I'm not saying that applies to anyone here], *HAS* been brainwashed!

In that respect, those guilty really do need to start having a mind of their own, and just for a change, demonstrating a modicum of intelligence.

Marco.

[Pigmy Pony]

Ha - love it. No, I think they rather enjoy and appreciate being fussed over and pampered for the day!:D

Marco.

What, you put them in Pampers? I've no doubt you would be looking after them, but I would probably stretch your hospitality to the limit. I like food, me. Lots of it. :)

[Pigmy Pony]

I put my modicum of intelligence on Ebay, as I wasn't using it. I was even prepared to demonstrate it to anyone interested, but no takers so far :( Some folk are perfectly happy to be thick as mince.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

The fact is Boris and all his cronies have used Covid to scare the public (as have other countries) so that they can profit from it, pretty sick but true, a quick look at the companies who have been given huge orders for PPE that has not been provided proves that.

I could go on about the other things like the stupid app that was developed by politicians mates then scrapped but I don't have time.

Covid does not kill fit and healthy people, if it did we would have thousands of dead people all over the country who have died from it, the fact remains the morons running the country instructed the NHS to put down cause of death as Covid for anyone testing positive even if they did not die from it.

[dave2010]

Possible symptoms - click on this link for diagram -

https://miro.medium.com/max/4802/1*pm-RbrpPL20_qYv0X_85Nw.png

The sources for this look plausible enough.

[Marco]

Hi Steve,

That's a bit out of order, mate. Regardless of how much anyone disagrees with someone here, they can't address them like that, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to moderate your post and remove the invective, sorry.

Disagree with someone, by all means, and in the strongest of terms, but without resorting to that kind of language.

Marco.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

slap on the wrist accepted.

[Marco]

Ok mate, but you need to edit out the swearing and stuff from your last post.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Interesting observation. On the one hand you have people criticising the government for sending the children back to school and people back to work because it's 'too dangerous' and on the other hand you have people criticising the government for creating panic and hysteria over Covid when it is unwarranted. Which is it? Because it can't be both.

The government response to Covid has been inconsistent to say the least. They have swung wildly from Boris' famed 'herd immunity' to Hancocks latest 'don't kill your granny', this is a government without direction and conviction. I certainly think schools should go back, and people back to work, yes i have some reservations, I've heard of the odd healthy not so old person dying from this disease, but by and large it seems it really is only the most vulnerable who are at risk.

[Macca]

The government response to Covid has been inconsistent to say the least. They have swung wildly from Boris' famed 'herd immunity' to Hancocks latest 'don't kill your granny', this is a government without direction and conviction. I certainly think schools should go back, and people back to work, yes i have some reservations, I've heard of the odd healthy not so old person dying from this disease, but by and large it seems it really is only the most vulnerable who are at risk.

Certainly some relatively young and healthy medical personnel have died from it. If you get a big enough dose it will kill pretty much anyone.

Obviously the government have had to make it up as they go along, it's unprecedented. But as I said the other day I think herd immunity was the policy from the start and still is. Boris doesn't mention it anymore because that time he mentioned it there was a bit of a fuss. There's no value in frightening the horses.

You won't get any of the western governments or the healthcare professionals to admit it but that is the strategy they are pursuing for the simple reason that there isn't any other valid strategy.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Ok mate, but you need to edit out the swearing and stuff from your last post.

Marco.

No problem Marco, I have cooled down now from the white hot anger that post inspired. so I have deleted it. I still think it was asinine but whatever...

[Marco]

But as I said the other day I think herd immunity was the policy from the start and still is. Boris doesn't mention it anymore because that time he mentioned it there was a bit of a fuss. There's no value in frightening the horses.

You won't get any of the western governments or the healthcare professionals to admit it but that is the strategy they are pursuing for the simple reason that there isn't any other valid strategy.

Indeed - it's the ONLY viable strategy, because even if we get a 'safe vaccine', which is claimed to be effective (although we're still waiting for one for the last Coronavirus outbreak there was: SARS), as you pointed out earlier, it's unlikely to be a genuine cure, so if the forthcoming 'miracle vaccine' doesn't solve the problem, then where do we go from there?

Back to herd immunity of course, and subsequently to letting nature take its course, as THAT is the only true 'cure', and eventually also return ticket to whatever the 'new normal', once this virus has dissipated, is deemed to be!:exactly:

Marco.

[Marco]

No problem Marco, I have cooled down now from the white hot anger that post inspired. so I have deleted it. I still think it was asinine but whatever...

No problem, mate, we're all human, so thanks for that:thumbsup:

Marco.

[dave2010]

Obviously the government have had to make it up as they go along, it's unprecedented. But as I said the other day I think herd immunity was the policy from the start and still is. Boris doesn't mention it anymore because that time he mentioned it there was a bit of a fuss. There's no value in frightening the horses.
Sorry to disagree, but I don't think the maths works for herd immunity - or at least not yet. In the long term it might, but on the one hand we perhaps don't want too many people to get it, and if we could get the numbers low enough it might go away, but on the other hand for herd immunity we need more people to get it - more even than the current rate of infection would suggest.

There are other gotchas too if the virus evolves, as seems likely. It might become less dangerous, in which case more people could catch it, and perhaps gain at least temporary immunity - and that would help towards herd immunity. It could however, either remain fairly deadly, or even worse for some members of society, and that wouldn't be good.

Being able to catch it more than once, which it now seems is possible, is also not good.

We will be able to predict its behaviour much better with hindsight in a year or two!

[Marco]

There are other gotchas too if the virus evolves, as seems likely. It might become less dangerous, in which case more people could catch it, and perhaps gain at least temporary immunity - and that would help towards herd immunity.

Yup, and I've already said as much; indeed I suspect it's almost certainly already mutated into something different than when it first hit our shores, and I suspect (hope) it's now less virulent, which is one of the reasons why I'm predicting that all these new cases won't develop into the serious ones we saw over March and April, resulting in many deaths.

What we also have to keep at the forefront of our minds, with the reported rising number of CASES, is that the more aggressively we TEST the populace, the MORE CASES that will be revealed!!

It doesn't necessarily mean that more people are being infected, simply that we're getting a more accurate picture now of the spread of the virus, than before when LESS testing was taking place...

So.... Let's keep that FACT firmly at the forefront of our minds, the next time we see or hear on the news about all these new cases, and so stay calm and resist the urge to worry or panic:)

Marco.

[Sherwood]

Yup, and I've already said as much; indeed I suspect it's almost certainly already mutated into something different than when it first hit our shores, and I suspect (hope) it's now less virulent, which is one of the reasons why I'm predicting that all these new cases won't develop into the serious ones we saw over March and April, resulting in many deaths.

What we also have to keep at the forefront of our minds, with the reported rising number of CASES, is that the more aggressively we TEST the populace, the MORE CASES that will be revealed!!

It doesn't necessarily mean that more people are being infected, simply that we're getting a more accurate picture now of the spread of the virus, than before when LESS testing was taking place...

So.... Let's keep that FACT firmly at the forefront of our minds, the next time we see or hear on the news about all these new cases, and so stay calm and resist the urge to worry or panic:)

Marco.

There is no evidence that the virus has mutated. What has happened is that doctors have found better ways to treat infected patients. Regarding testing, yes, more testing will reveal more cases. Whilst it is important to have accurate metrics on the scale, distribution and rate of infection, a more important function of accurate and timely testing is to be able to isolate newly infected individuals, to track who they have been in contact with and to ensure that those parties isolate too. The fact is that actual rates of infection are increasing and this is not an artefact of testing.

[Marco]

There is no evidence that the virus has mutated. What has happened is that doctors have found better ways to treat infected patients.

Didn't say that there was evidence, Geoff. It's simply my gut feeling that it has mutated into something less virulent, which I hope is right! Viruses often do mutate, hence why the flu jab you get is never the same, as it takes into account different strains of flu.

With regard to your latter point, on that we are in full agreement, and which is another important reason why I suspect that most of the new cases we're seeing won't develop into something as serious as they did before, hence there will be no significant 'second wave' - something else that the media keep reminding us about, in order to maintain the fear factor.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

There is no evidence that the virus has mutated. What has happened is that doctors have found better ways to treat infected patients. Regarding testing, yes, more testing will reveal more cases. Whilst it is important to have accurate metrics on the scale, distribution and rate of infection, a more important function of accurate and timely testing is to be able to isolate newly infected individuals, to track who they have been in contact with and to ensure that those parties isolate too. The fact is that actual rates of infection are increasing and this is not an artefact of testing.

Rates of infection are indeed increasing, but deaths aren't, surely the best way to build herd immunity.

[Sherwood]

Rates of infection are indeed increasing, but deaths aren't, surely the best way to build herd immunity.

No. Herd immunity is frequently misunderstood. It is typically referenced when determining the proportion of a susceptible population that needs to be immunised in order to provide effective control of an infectious disease such as measles, TB, and polio. The reasoning is that even if the whole population is not immunised, the pool of susceptible uninfected individuals is sufficiently low to prevent widespread infection. The estimates for herd immunity to be effective vary but at the very minimum, it is around 70% of the population. If herd immunity is to be achieved in the UK this would require over 40m individuals to be infected, with the huge burden of mortality and morbidity that would entail. Furthermore, if COVID 19 is like influenza, and mutates slightly each year, herd immunity will be rapidly lost and the whole population (or a large percentage of the population) will require re-immunisation each year.

The reason that case mortality rates have fallen faster than the rate of new infections is that better treatments have been developed. However, any gains from reduced case mortality rates may well be offset by rapidly rising infection rates which is what we are currently experiencing. Anybody who understands exponential growth will appreciate the consequences of the reproduction rate rising appreciably above unity.

[Macca]

Sorry to disagree, but I don't think the maths works for herd immunity - or at least not yet. In the long term it might, but on the one hand we perhaps don't want too many people to get it, and if we could get the numbers low enough it might go away, but on the other hand for herd immunity we need more people to get it - more even than the current rate of infection would suggest.!

It's a long-term strategy, balancing the infection rate against hospital admissions. I've seen estimates that say up to 40% of the population have already had the virus although many have shown little or no symptoms. As antibody testing increases that estimate will become more accurate. As time goes on the percentage will increase to herd immunity levels.

The trick is to achieve herd immunity without overwhelming the health care system. So it will take time. There's currently no evidence that you can catch it more than once.

[Macca]

No. Herd immunity is frequently misunderstood. It is typically referenced when determining the proportion of a susceptible population that needs to be immunised in order to provide effective control of an infectious disease such as measles, TB, and polio. The reasoning is that even if the whole population is not immunised, the pool of susceptible uninfected individuals is sufficiently low to prevent widespread infection. The estimates for herd immunity to be effective vary but at the very minimum, it is around 70% of the population. If herd immunity is to be achieved in the UK this would require over 40m individuals to be infected, with the huge burden of mortality and morbidity that would entail. Furthermore, if COVID 19 is like influenza, and mutates slightly each year, herd immunity will be rapidly lost and the whole population (or a large percentage of the population) will require re-immunisation each year.

The reason that case mortality rates have fallen faster than the rate of new infections is that better treatments have been developed. However, any gains from reduced case mortality rates may well be offset by rapidly rising infection rates which is what we are currently experiencing. Anybody who understands exponential growth will appreciate the consequences of the reproduction rate rising appreciably above unity.

I think we all understand what herd immunity is, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp. I think we all understand what exponential growth is too. It's possible to reach herd immunity without exponential growth, it is just a question of time.

People more susceptible to the virus need to remain isolating and take extra precautions. Ultimately they will benefit the most from herd immunity. You don't want the R value to fall too low (unless it is a result of reaching herd immunity) otherwise you will never reach herd immunity. Likewise you don't want it going too high as it may overwhelm health services. So it is being managed with local lockdowns, social distancing, mask wearing etc. Those things alone will never eradicate the virus. That seems to be the bit that some people don't get.

[Marco]

It's a long-term strategy, balancing the infection rate against hospital admissions. I've seen estimates that say up to 40% of the population have already had the virus although many have shown little or no symptoms. As antibody testing increases that estimate will become more accurate. As time goes on the percentage will increase to herd immunity levels.

The trick is to achieve herd immunity without overwhelming the health care system. So it will take time.

Indeed.


I think we all understand what herd immunity is, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp. I think we all understand what exponential growth is too. It's possible to reach herd immunity without exponential growth, it is just a question of time.


Absolutely. Ultimately, allowing nature to take its course [in tandem with controlling the spread of the virus as much as possible, taking all reasonable and necessary precautions], is the ONLY real way of getting through this.

Marco.

[Marco]

Furthermore, if COVID 19 is like influenza, and mutates slightly each year, herd immunity will be rapidly lost and the whole population (or a large percentage of the population) will require re-immunisation each year.


Same would apply with any vaccine, which even if safe, would never be 100% effective over a long period of time. Therefore, as I've said (also Macca), ultimately herd immunity , however long it takes, is the only real solution, and with that, Covid-19 will *eventually* go the way of Swine Flu or SARS... Until the next strain of corornavirus comes along!

Yes, with the way we're living now, I believe that these types of outbreaks will become more commonplace in the years to come.

Marco.

[Sherwood]

To repeat the point, herd immunity requires either an effective one time immunisation (as we have for TB, polio etc), or a long term immunity to reinfection once infected. Neither of these conditions are met or certain as yet.

Of course we need the reproduction rate to be low (i.e. below unity) because herd immunity is not an effective strategy for this disease. No competent public health specialist or epidemiologist would suggest otherwise.

[Macca]

Influenza is a covid virus and it seems to be forgotten that a lot of people die from that every year and have done for centuries. The swine flu of 2009 is estimated to have killed half a million people globally. Remember us having a lockdown and a big panic over that? No, neither do I. But it was declared as a pandemic by the WHO https://www.ctvnews.ca/who-declares-h1n1-a-pandemic-the-first-since-1968-1.407017#:~:text=TORONTO%20-%20The%20World%20Health%20Organization%20declared% 20the,to%20lead%20to%20a%20pandemic%20of%20moderat e%20severity.

[Marco]

To repeat the point, herd immunity requires either an effective one time immunisation (as we have for TB, polio etc), or a long term immunity to reinfection once infected. Neither of these conditions are met or certain as yet.


And to also reapeat: it will take TIME, but I believe it will happen.


Of course we need the reproduction rate to be low (i.e. below unity) because herd immunity is not an effective strategy for this disease. No competent public health specialist or epidemiologist would suggest otherwise.

It will be, if the right criteria is met, some of which you've outlined.

Marco.

[Marco]

Influenza is a covid virus and it seems to be forgotten that a lot of people die from that every year and have done for centuries. The swine flu of 2009 is estimated to have killed half a million people globally. Remember us having a lockdown and a big panic over that? No, neither do I. But it was declared as a pandemic by the WHO https://www.ctvnews.ca/who-declares-h1n1-a-pandemic-the-first-since-1968-1.407017#:~:text=TORONTO%20-%20The%20World%20Health%20Organization%20declared% 20the,to%20lead%20to%20a%20pandemic%20of%20moderat e%20severity.

A very salient point! And you have to ask yourself WHY...?? WHY all the panic this time, over something that is arguably less serious, and not before? What's the driving force behind the creation of panic this time?

Any thoughts on that?:)

Your point on influenza is also very relevant.

Marco.

[Macca]

To repeat the point, herd immunity requires either an effective one time immunisation (as we have for TB, polio etc), or a long term immunity to reinfection once infected. Neither of these conditions are met or certain as yet.

Of course we need the reproduction rate to be low (i.e. below unity) because herd immunity is not an effective strategy for this disease. No competent public health specialist or epidemiologist would suggest otherwise.

Not in public, no. But if they had another solution I'd imagine that they might mention that. So far, nothing. What are your grounds for stating that herd immunity is not an effective strategy?

[Macca]

A very salient point! And you have to ask yourself WHY...?? WHY all the panic this time, over something that is arguably less serious, and not before?

Any thoughts on that?:)

Your point on influenza is also very relevant.

Marco.

When it started nothing was known about the virus. So they erred on the side of caution. Also it did become clear quite quickly that C-19 was more contagious than 'flu virus and was more virulent in its effects on the average individual than swine flu. So there was a danger of the health system being overwhelmed which there was not with the swine flu. It is clearly more serious than swine flu.

My point was that there was a pandemic in 2009 and a lot of people died and it wasn't big news, barely news at all in fact. But as C-19 is big news joe punter gets to hear about it and then even one death from it is 'One death too many!'

[Marco]

Sure, but my point was that why wasn't there this level of panic over Swine Flu, which was arguably as serious, or more so? What's different THIS time with CV-19, in terms of it warranting the creation of more panic than was afforded to Swine Flu?

Marco.

[Sherwood]

Not in public, no. But if they had another solution I'd imagine that they might mention that. So far, nothing. What are your grounds for stating that herd immunity is not an effective strategy?

We do not consider herd immunity as an effective strategy for influenza because the virus mutates each year and previously infected persons can be and are reinfected. That is why we have a new flu shot each year tailored to the new strain. There can be no herd immunity in this case. We do not know if the same applies to Covid 19, but it is a strong possibility. As to a vaccine, it could take years to immunise everyone, especially if two doses are required. If the vaccine mutates, it will be like painting the Forth Bridge.

[Macca]

Sure, but my point was that why wasn't there this level of panic over Swine Flu, which was arguably as serious, or more so? What's different THIS time with CV-19, in terms of it warranting the creation of more panic than was afforded to Swine Flu?

Marco.

More contagious and with more powerful effect on the health of the individual. It is more serious than swine flu.

[Macca]

We do not consider herd immunity as an effective strategy for influenza because the virus mutates each year and previously infected persons can be and are reinfected. That is why we have a new flu shot each year tailored to the new strain. There can be no herd immunity in this case. We do not know if the same applies to Covid 19, but it is a strong possibility. As to a vaccine, it could take years to immunise everyone, especially if two doses are required. If the vaccine mutates, it will be like painting the Forth Bridge.

I agree that if the virus mutates herd immunity cannot happen. But so far little or no evidence for that. Also if the virus mutates it can mutate into a form less powerful and less contagious. There was no vaccine for Spanish Flu yet it eventually petered out, likely due to a combination of it mutating to a less powerful strain and herd immunity being reached.

Partial immunity is also possible, that is you could be re-infected with the new strain but as you have antibodies from the old strain that can help reduce the effect it has on you.

Let's assume that mutation means herd immunity is impossible and that attempts to find a successful vaccine fail. What's the solution then? Lockdown forever resulting in economic collapse? Just a couple of months of lockdown reduced the UK economy by 25%. Permanent lockdown would lead to complete collapse, starvation, anarchy, basically the end of everything.

Maybe herd immunity will not work, but since it is currently the only game in town I don't understand why there is any opposition to pursuing it.

[AJSki2fly]

We do not consider herd immunity as an effective strategy for influenza because the virus mutates each year and previously infected persons can be and are reinfected. That is why we have a new flu shot each year tailored to the new strain. There can be no herd immunity in this case. We do not know if the same applies to Covid 19, but it is a strong possibility. As to a vaccine, it could take years to immunise everyone, especially if two doses are required. If the vaccine mutates, it will be like painting the Forth Bridge.

Spot on Geoff.

The other aspect lots seem to choose to ignore is that coronavirus in several forms is what we call a ‘Common Cold’ and all its variants, fevers, sore throats, respiratory inflammation etc, the human race has failed for at least 100 years trying to find a cure for “the Common Cold”. Covid or to give its full name is - severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) which denotes the genetic relationship to SARS(2003), the 19 I believe indicates the year it was first recognised. It is generally accepted in scientific circles it is naturally occurring and has been identified as coming from bats.

“ Between 24 December 2019 and 17 January 2020, Forster explains, just three out of 23 cases in Wuhan were type A, while the rest were type B. In patients in Guangdong province, however, five out of nine were found to have type A of the virus.” see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/could-covid-19-be-manmade-what-we-know-about-origins-trump-chinese-lab-coronavirus an interesting article!

So are we likely to get long term stable vaccines or treatments, I will leave that up to everyone else to consider and conclude for themselves

[Macca]

Spot on Geoff.

The other aspect lots seem to choose to ignore is that coronavirus in several forms is what we call a ‘Common Cold’

No-one is ignoring that, it just isn't relevant unless you are arguing that a vaccine is impossible. 'Flu is a covid virus and we have vaccines for that, they just have to keep up with the mutations.

If a vaccine is impossible then, barring a mutation into a less harmful form, herd immunity is still the only solution.

[dave2010]

No-one is ignoring that, it just isn't relevant unless you are arguing that a vaccine is impossible. 'Flu is a covid virus and we have vaccines for that, they just have to keep up with the mutations.

If a vaccine is impossible then, barring a mutation into a less harmful form, herd immunity is still the only solution.Herd immunity is a solution, but the current infection rates are far too low for that to occur in a short while. Some have argued that looking at mathematical models doesn't tell the whole story - and I agree - but even a "simple" model such as the SIR model will show the nature of the progress of this kind of disease. It is quite easy to find details, and even on-line simulations for the SIR model, and by playing with the parameters one can notice that the current situation is that the disease is not going away - which some parameter sets would achieve rapidly - nor is it increasing fast enough for herd immunity to be a strong enough effect.

The "simple" mathematical models also do not take into account mutations or other factors which the real world presents. Indeed it is possible that real world events may turn out better, but it is also possible that they will be worse.

Assuming this thing is still a problem in a year or so - which is certainly looking likely right now - we will have a great deal more knowledge about it then, and new risk assessments.

If we are lucky the disease will disappear like Spanish flu and the earlier version of SARS which seemed to die down of their own accord in a few years. That might actually be preferable to having to have possibly unreliable vaccinations every year or so.

[Mikeandvan]

I agree that if the virus mutates herd immunity cannot happen. But so far little or no evidence for that. Also if the virus mutates it can mutate into a form less powerful and less contagious. There was no vaccine for Spanish Flu yet it eventually petered out, likely due to a combination of it mutating to a less powerful strain and herd immunity being reached.

Partial immunity is also possible, that is you could be re-infected with the new strain but as you have antibodies from the old strain that can help reduce the effect it has on you.

Let's assume that mutation means herd immunity is impossible and that attempts to find a successful vaccine fail. What's the solution then? Lockdown forever resulting in economic collapse? Just a couple of months of lockdown reduced the UK economy by 25%. Permanent lockdown would lead to complete collapse, starvation, anarchy, basically the end of everything.

Maybe herd immunity will not work, but since it is currently the only game in town I don't understand why there is any opposition to pursuing it.

I read about a man in China who was admitted to hospital in the early days of Covid 19 due to serious symptoms, he recovered, then a few months later had a routine test which discovered reinfection of Covid, but this time he was symptomless. I fear the the economic collapse may already be inevitable, October the furlough ends, many London offices are still empty, a few sectors of the economy are still in complete lockdown, the recession will be severe and will lead to a depression, the changes I fear will be seismic, lockdown has revealed the precarious nature of our economy.

[Marco]

More contagious and with more powerful effect on the health of the individual. It is more serious than swine flu.

Possibly...;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I agree that if the virus mutates herd immunity cannot happen. But so far little or no evidence for that. Also if the virus mutates it can mutate into a form less powerful and less contagious. There was no vaccine for Spanish Flu yet it eventually petered out, likely due to a combination of it mutating to a less powerful strain and herd immunity being reached.


Exactly, and I believe that in time that's exactly what will happen with Covid. But as you say, we can't shut down the world and effectively put so many people's lives on hold until it happens, as it's getting to the stage now that the effect of the restrictions imposed is becoming worse than that of the virus!


Let's assume that mutation means herd immunity is impossible and that attempts to find a successful vaccine fail. What's the solution then? Lockdown forever resulting in economic collapse? Just a couple of months of lockdown reduced the UK economy by 25%. Permanent lockdown would lead to complete collapse, starvation, anarchy, basically the end of everything.

Maybe herd immunity will not work, but since it is currently the only game in town I don't understand why there is any opposition to pursuing it.

Precisely, and it's a fact that the 'eternal worriers' and/or doom & gloom merchants don't seem to want to embrace and accept:doh:

As I said WAY back on this thread: there is no point in living, if you don't have a life! (No job, no money, effectively under permanent house arrest, or restricted to limited movements or social interaction, without being 'tracked', etc, etc).

I'd rather be dead, 'cos that ain't no life:nono:

Marco.