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Pigmy Pony
14-04-2020, 17:29
Some interesting stuff there Marco.
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For those that do not know, if you find that you need to apply for say JSA, ESA, Universal Credit or any other benefit for that matter, you have to supply bank account details for the payments to be made, at the point of doing that it means you have given the D W P and other government departments the right to monitor and access your bank account and any others you may have. This means they can see what money you have, what you spend it on and any payments that may go in and out.
I have been told of instances where valid claimants are called and asked why they are making specific payments and for what purpose, and how any additional funds may have come to an account. So for example if someone sold an item and money came in then they would want to know about it. If this was viewed as a regular occurrence then they may make a case to deem the individual as self employed with obvious implications, not that the person was having to raise funds to try and survive.
Obviously the purpose of this is to try and stop fraudulent claims to be made by individuals, but it can quite easily be viewed another way.
Surely the government have been able to do this for years, via HMRC?
Firebottle
14-04-2020, 17:32
Some interesting stuff there Marco.
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.................................................. .........
For those that do not know, if you find that you need to apply for say JSA, ESA, Universal Credit or any other benefit for that matter, you have to supply bank account details for the payments to be made, at the point of doing that it means you have given the D W P and other government departments the right to monitor and access your bank account and any others you may have. This means they can see what money you have, what you spend it on and any payments that may go in and out.
I have been told of instances where valid claimants are called and asked why they are making specific payments and for what purpose, and how any additional funds may have come to an account. So for example if someone sold an item and money came in then they would want to know about it. If this was viewed as a regular occurrence then they may make a case to deem the individual as self employed with obvious implications, not that the person was having to raise funds to try and survive.
Obviously the purpose of this is to try and stop fraudulent claims to be made by individuals, but it can quite easily be viewed another way.
I find that horrific in that your PERSONAL finances can be monitored.
Good job I have a few different accounts..not that I claim for any handouts.
I find that horrific in that your PERSONAL finances can be monitored.
If you've dug DEEP, like me mate, where 'Big Brother' doesn't want you to go, you'd be even more horrified by what can be monitored... See that nice helpful Alexa you've got in your room (controlled by Amazon) - she's your FRIEND, right???;)
As indeed are all your other 'Smart' devices.... But the question is, ultimately 'smartest' for whom...?
Marco.
Firebottle
14-04-2020, 18:12
I don't have an Alex, or never would.
I agree, there is too much that is under the radar.
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2020, 18:22
If you've dug DEEP, like me mate, where 'Big Brother' doesn't want you to go, you'd be even more horrified by what can be monitored... See that nice helpful Alexa you've got in your room (controlled by Amazon) - she's your FRIEND, right???;)
Marco.
Marco, methinks it's a bit naïve to demonize Alexa, while telling all of us (as well as any other interested parties) about your suspicions is floating about in cyberspace, waiting to be grabbed. And if you think that information about your finances cannot possibly be accessed by the powers that be, you and your MacBook may be in for a big shock :doh:
You cannot go "off the grid" by avoiding the gadgets you didn't want anyway (smartphones), while sticking with what suits the way you live (laptops). You're either off the grid or on it. there is no in between :(
I assume your Smart TV is not connected to Tinternet, and that none of it can be voice-activated - you wouldn't want outside parties learning your viewing preferences :spank::spank: or anything else you may talk about.
I also assume you've already got a bit of black tape stuck over your laptop's webcam. :eyebrows:
Pony [not easily brainwashed by conspiracy theories, but willing to accept that EVERYONE has an agenda].
AJSki2fly
14-04-2020, 18:24
I find that horrific in that your PERSONAL finances can be monitored.
Good job I have a few different accounts..not that I claim for any handouts.
No give one and you give all, they can approach all banks and credit companies using your identity details and open up sesame, maybe not if it’s a Swiss bank account
AJSki2fly
14-04-2020, 18:26
Marco, methinks it's a bit naïve to demonize Alexa, while telling all of us (as well as any other interested parties) about your suspicions is floating about in cyberspace, waiting to be grabbed. And if you think that information about your finances cannot possibly be accessed by the powers that be, you and your MacBook may be in for a big shock :doh:
You cannot go "off the grid" by avoiding the gadgets you didn't want anyway (smartphones), while sticking with what suits the way you live (laptops). You're either off the grid or on it. there is no in between :(
I assume your Smart TV is not connected to Tinternet, and that none of it can be voice-activated - you wouldn't want outside parties learning your viewing preferences :spank::spank: or anything else you may talk about.
I also assume you've already got a bit of black tape stuck over your laptop's webcam. :eyebrows:
Pony [not easily brainwashed by conspiracy theories, but willing to accept that EVERYONE has an agenda].
Quite correct Steve it’s all or nothing, like you say you either hold it in or let it go [emoji23]
Surely the government have been able to do this for years, via HMRC?
Since bank accounts were invented in fact so at least 500 years if not more.
Don't really see why this is a cause for concern. ''The government can see who's paying me money!'' Given it's either them or your employer what does that matter?
And if you're doing something dodgy you either don't pay the cash into a bank account at all or you launder before you do. Get a cash business like a launderette, a corner shop or an arcade and bob's your uncle. Smart criminals know this and the stupid ones don't and get caught. So unless someone's a stupid criminal or planning to become one why does it matter? Because the government can see that you spent a monkey in B&Q last Saturday? Like they care.
I will NOT be spied upon, manipulated, controlled or turned simply into a 'number'. I'd lead a people's revolution long before that happened:trust:
Sorry Marco, but you already are - unless you have false plates on the Brabster, Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) will know where you drive and if in a sufficiently built up area, unless your wearing a full face mask and fat suit Facial Recognition will track you wherever you walk. Being “off grid” would need to cover both those angles, too. Think “Grizzly Adams” and that’s about the only way you can avoid any surveillance I am afraid, even before COVID-19.
Lets just get it over with; just accept the chip,:eek: all your details from birth to present will be easily accessed by those who need it, ;) so you wont need to go to the bother of even swiping your credit card, you just walk around the store, pick all your shopping, and its taken directly from your credits on your chip, when you go into the Doctors,or hospital, no need to sign in, or to tell anyone your there, they will know as soon as you walk through the door, same with public transport etc. No need for Alternative Dirty Filthy physical money anymore, infact no need for any physical monetry system full stop, remember you have the chip now, everything's ok, just make sure you behave! :eyebrows:
On the other side of the coin, if you burgle someone’s house, rape an old lady or murder someone, you won’t get away with it. And as I have just replied to Marco, even without a mobile phone or internet access, ANPR facial recognition technologies are already capable of doing most of those things just based on biometrics. Not saying I agree, but there are two sides to the argument, and if you’re not doing anything wrong what have you got to worry about? :sofa:
I don't have an Alex, or never would.
I’m relieved! [emoji51]
Marco, methinks it's a bit naïve to demonize Alexa, while telling all of us (as well as any other interested parties) about your suspicions is floating about in cyberspace, waiting to be grabbed. And if you think that information about your finances cannot possibly be accessed by the powers that be, you and your MacBook may be in for a big shock :doh:
You cannot go "off the grid" by avoiding the gadgets you didn't want anyway (smartphones), while sticking with what suits the way you live (laptops). You're either off the grid or on it. there is no in between :(
I assume your Smart TV is not connected to Tinternet, and that none of it can be voice-activated - you wouldn't want outside parties learning your viewing preferences :spank::spank: or anything else you may talk about.
I also assume you've already got a bit of black tape stuck over your laptop's webcam. :eyebrows:
Pony [not easily brainwashed by conspiracy theories, but willing to accept that EVERYONE has an agenda].
That's fair enough, and I agree, but you're missing the point.
The powers that be 'monitoring' my activities via my laptop or Smart TV is immaterial. I have little doubt that's happening now to some extent, but if they acted upon information surreptitiously gained, in a way that was obvious, it would simply be used as proof that I was right! Furthermore, if it's also about spying on you to see whether you're 'onto them' or not, then I'm already declaring such in public, without the need for any covert surveillance!;)
The point, as I've said before, is to MINIMISE, as far as practically possible, your ability to be controlled by, or become reliant on technology (and consequently the powers that be in charge), and therefore how invasive it becomes in your life, whilst choosing the best compromise between that and enjoying a 'normal' life (read as one considered as such in the modern world). The fact is, nothing worthwhile is ever achieved without some form of compromise.
Therefore, in terms of being 'on-grid', I chose to have a laptop and Smart TV, because as you correctly say, it suited my lifestyle, although the latter not for its 'Smart' features, but rather its large (flat) screen, with which I could enjoy movies to a more pleasurable and higher standard.
I never avail of its 'interactive' and/or Internet features; it simply acts as a screen. Of course, that doesn't mean that either device isn't being used to 'spy' on me, but I return to the point I made previously, in terms of if my personal information was ever used against me in an obvious way, it would simply prove that what I've been saying all along was right. And of course I wouldn't be keeping it a secret!
In terms of the *crucial* areas where I'm 'off-grid', and thus less susceptible to being observed or controlled by 'the system', firstly by not having kids, and therefore having to worry about their future, and if they end up existing in an Orwellian state, controlled by the global elite, which some believe will eventually become a reality, it removes a WHOLE RAFT of concerns I'd have in that area, both in terms of the kids themselves being controlled/brainwashed, cruelly exploited or whatever, and also my behaviour towards them as a parent, which I shouldn't need to spell out...
Furthermore, and rather crucially, I don't own a Smartphone (nor ever will) - a device I believe will become central to the 'powers that be' achieving their goal for total world control, and so aside from anything else, compared with those today who run their lives on their phones, financially and otherwise, and regularly share pictures of themselves/loved ones, and other critical personal information on social media, my movements can't be tracked via Smart technology, as I never carry any devices enabling such with me when I'm out.
Plus, aside from this forum, I use NO other form of online social media, therefore unlike the vast majority of the population, there is no (or very little) data stored about me on popular social media sites, which could be misused by unscrupulous third parties.
I also don't own an electric or hybrid car, and have NO plans for such, therefore I'm not potentially exposing myself in future to having the use of my car, and subsequent journeys, monitored or controlled via Smart technology, and which I predict will happen, along with further development and widespread use of Artificial Intelligence, with the planned creation of the 'Internet of Things', something I believe will ultimately lead to mankind's downfall...
Lastly, I have no debt, neither does Del, and we own our house outright, so we're not beholden to credit card companies or banks, in terms of repaying a mortgage, or indeed any other form of debt.
Therefore, in that respect can't be controlled by the system, as we're financially secure, and furthermore fortunate so far, in terms of our health, not to suffer from any major ailments, and so neither of us 'needs' to work or relies on medication, in order to survive, and currently therefore aren't dependent on, and thus able to be controlled, by the employment or health service.
And when we shortly dedicate a significant area of our (large) garden to grow vegetables and house some chickens (for eggs), we'll be self-sufficient in terms of food, so won't be controlled by the system, in terms of our ability to eat - can you see where I'm going here?:eyebrows:
Then comes the solar panels I mentioned, as they can't switch off the sun.... Of course, all of that presumes that martial law, or a police state, aren't introduced by then and all of our assets are seized, or we don't all die when the earth collides with a huge asteroid on 29th April... God's payback for the behaviour of man and his treatment of the planet. Hey, maybe it'll just be all the baddies who'll die?:eek:;)
Marco.
Sorry Marco, but you already are - unless you have false plates on the Brabster, Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) will know where you drive and if in a sufficiently built up area, unless your wearing a full face mask and fat suit Facial Recognition will track you wherever you walk. Being “off grid” would need to cover both those angles, too. Think “Grizzly Adams” and that’s about the only way you can avoid any surveillance I am afraid, even before COVID-19.
Yeah, I get that, mate. See my last post in response to Piggurs!:)
Marco.
On the other side of the coin, if you burgle someone’s house, rape an old lady or murder someone, you won’t get away with it. And as I have just replied to Marco, even without a mobile phone or internet access, ANPR facial recognition technologies are already capable of doing most of those things just based on biometrics. Not saying I agree, but there are two sides to the argument, and if you’re not doing anything wrong what have you got to worry about? :sofa:
Indeed, and also rather crucially, the *very* technology currently being used by the 'powers that be' against US, can (and trust me, is) being used against THEM, by humanitarians around the world currently occupying positions of power, and so they will ensure that their plan fails!;)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
14-04-2020, 23:01
That's fair enough, and I agree, but you're missing the point.
Marco.
No I think I hit your point just fine, but you seem to have missed mine :(
That was wordy beyond words, and even though I was tired before I started reading it, I persevered. I could not begin to reply to all of that, so I'll just say nighty night :)
Pony [too stupid to be worried about smartphones and too tired to care]
No I think I hit your point just fine, but you seem to have missed mine :(
Ok then, which is...?
State it succinctly, and I'll tell you if I've missed it or not. My reply was wordy (as usual in these situations) in order to clarify my point, without room for any misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that I can go 'off-grid' completely, simply by cherry-picking the Smart devices I use - but I can MINIMISE the effect of my time 'on-grid', by using the MINIMAL amount of devices in the first place, able to monitor, and potentially control, my behaviour.
Marco.
And when we shortly dedicate a significant area of our (large) garden to grow vegetables and house some chickens (for eggs), we'll be self-sufficient in terms of food, so won't be controlled by the system, in terms of our ability to eat - can you see where I'm going here?:eyebrows
A diet of seasonal veg and eggs might get a bit samey, with respect you're not a vegetarian, where will the meat come from?
Nowhere, Roy, if the state ended up controlling the food supply. That's the whole point of becoming as self-sufficient as possible, by surviving on your own produce and refusing to be controlled by the system - and no I won't be slaughtering any cattle;)
However, if necessary in order to survive, without relying on support from the state, while effectively under control by a fascist regime [should such an unpalatable reality ever occur, and the global elite achieve their goal], I could become vegetarian.
In all honestly, aside from chicken, I wouldn't really miss eating meat. Plus, as Del's veggie, she's rather good at creating really tasty vegetarian meals, especially by growing an extensive array of herbs and chillies, as we currently do, to add flavour to food.
Marco.
In all honestly, aside from chicken, I wouldn't really miss eating meat.
Just an observation but you've had lamb / fillet steak / salmon / pork chop in just the last week.
Think I'd prefer to be state controlled and eat well.
Just an observation but you've had lamb / fillet steak / salmon / pork chop in just the last week.
Indeed, but that's simply because right now I have a choice.
Think I'd prefer to be state controlled and eat well.
So you'd be prepared to be ruled by what would amount to a fascist regime [if in future the world were controlled by the global elite], with all the compromises to your freedom and civil liberties that would bring, simply to be able to eat meat?
You're on your own there then, Roy. I'd be fighting to remain free, as long as I had enough food to live!
Marco.
Ok, I was being somewhat flippant, but I just can’t see the model of society you envisage ever happening. With regard to growing your own veg I recall my Dad ‘s attempts at growing stuff and whilst he was quite an accomplished Gardner we didn’t benefit very often from his harvest. Onions didn’t warrant the amount of room they occupied given the price you could get them for in the shops for instance. I stand to be corrected but I believe you need about a quarter of an acre per person to facilitate self sufficiency (double that if you want livestock).
Johnny nocash
15-04-2020, 03:20
I live in north London & haven't seen a true pollice man/woman patolling my street in the last 10 years. No exageraration, so enforcing anything is impossible.
There are social gatherings happening at people's houses all around me. It's an insult.
There is no lockdown in this city.
The government has to bring in the army to stop this shit.
Forget your political bollocks, it has to be done.... in London if nowhere else. The ' great British public' is not great, it's an image of the past. This is a city full of 'me', a fucking disgrace.
If you want to rid us of the virus then we need to weed out out the selfish cunts.
Take care.
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 06:44
Ok, I was being somewhat flippant, but I just can’t see the model of society you envisage ever happening. With regard to growing your own veg I recall my Dad ‘s attempts at growing stuff and whilst he was quite an accomplished Gardner we didn’t benefit very often from his harvest. Onions didn’t warrant the amount of room they occupied given the price you could get them for in the shops for instance. I stand to be corrected but I believe you need about a quarter of an acre per person to facilitate self sufficiency (double that if you want livestock).
And if you want pasta you're gonna need a couple more acres for the wheatfields. I daresay owning a combine harvester may be a bit excessive, but you are going to need some sort of assistance there. Like a tractor, an oil field with attached refinery to provide fuel for it, or at least a couple of horses with an acre or two for grazing. :)
The really frustrating part will be when the State comes and takes it all off you :(
Ok, I was being somewhat flippant, but I just can’t see the model of society you envisage ever happening. With regard to growing your own veg I recall my Dad ‘s attempts at growing stuff and whilst he was quite an accomplished Gardner we didn’t benefit very often from his harvest. Onions didn’t warrant the amount of room they occupied given the price you could get them for in the shops for instance. I stand to be corrected but I believe you need about a quarter of an acre per person to facilitate self sufficiency (double that if you want livestock).
Plus a bad year weather-wise or a bit of blight and you're starving to death. We moved on from hunter-gathering for a reason.
Although according to BBC's 'The Good Life' you can manage perfectly well with a modest suburban garden and even produce a surplus which you can sell or exchange for other goods and services. So I don't know what to think.
AJSki2fly
15-04-2020, 07:07
And if you want pasta you're gonna need a couple more acres for the wheatfields. I daresay owning a combine harvester may be a bit excessive, but you are going to need some sort of assistance there. Like a tractor, an oil field with attached refinery to provide fuel for it, or at least a couple of horses with an acre or two for grazing. :)
The really frustrating part will be when the State comes and takes it all off you :(
Also probably need to start sourcing a few hundred olive trees for oil production.[emoji3]
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 07:10
Ok then, which is...?
State it succinctly, and I'll tell you if I've missed it or not. My reply was wordy (as usual in these situations) in order to clarify my point, without room for any misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that I can go 'off-grid' completely, simply by cherry-picking the Smart devices I use - but I can MINIMISE the effect of my time 'on-grid', by using the MINIMAL amount of devices in the first place, able to monitor, and potentially control, my behaviour.
Marco.
No, let's do it this way: you state SUCCINCTLY, precisely the point I missed, and I'll do the same :ner:
Yes I get that you acknowledge the impracticalities of going off the grid completely, but you don't seem to get that only being slightly off the grid is nigh on pointless. Imagine if you will, spending a day in a football stadium with 20,000 Coronavirus patients. Then imagine another scenario where only 10,000 of these folk have the virus, the other 10,000 being healthy. The outcomes will be the same. It's all or nothing mate.
And you defended ownership of your laptop and smart TV, even saying that any resulting attempts at manipulation will somehow give you a satisfying sense of vindication - well so would ownership of a smartphone, but with the added bonus that you will be able to tell us about it from anywhere in the world, via Whatsapp, and still have room in your pocket for your wallet - them MacBooks can be quite bulky :)
Right, I'm off for a walk over to "Musical Compositions". Maybe I'll see you over there, you can tell me what's "Spinning Today" :)
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 07:18
Also probably need to start sourcing a few hundred olive trees for oil production.[emoji3]
Olive trees! Of course, that is the answer! And I bet Marco likes olives :) But does Wrexham have the climate for it? I know nowt about gardening
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 07:23
Sorry Marco, it's starting to look like I'm "thread crapping". So time for some music. Just in case I don't see you over there, I'm starting the day with Genesis' Abacab :)
walpurgis
15-04-2020, 07:55
Plus a bad year weather-wise or a bit of blight and you're starving to death. We moved on from hunter-gathering for a reason.
Although according to BBC's 'The Good Life' you can manage perfectly well with a modest suburban garden and even produce a surplus which you can sell or exchange for other goods and services. So I don't know what to think.
There's plenty of food about, it's just social conventions that make cannibalism taboo. I'm sure there's a 'work around' for that. :D
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 07:59
Plus a bad year weather-wise or a bit of blight and you're starving to death. We moved on from hunter-gathering for a reason.
Although according to BBC's 'The Good Life' you can manage perfectly well with a modest suburban garden and even produce a surplus which you can sell or exchange for other goods and services. So I don't know what to think.
Barbara was quite fit, so probably no need for a telly :)
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 08:02
There's plenty of food about, it's just social conventions that make cannibalism taboo. I'm sure there's a 'work around' for that. :D
I'd have to be pretty desperate though. I look at some of the women walking round Morrisons, and I think no way could I eat that :(
walpurgis
15-04-2020, 08:05
I'd have to be pretty desperate though. I look at some of the women walking round Morrisons, and I think no way could I eat that :(
That's what comes of frequenting Morrisons. Try Waitrose :).
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 08:11
That's what comes of frequenting Morrisons. Try Waitrose :).
thanks for the tip, we have one near us these days. I did try Holland & Barrett, but found the meat a bit tough :( They did have a special offer on though - Buy one, get her mother for a penny, which I thought was good VFM.
Yes I get that you acknowledge the impracticalities of going off the grid completely, but you don't seem to get that only being slightly off the grid is nigh on pointless.
I (sort of) see where you're coming from, but my point isn't in respect of fretting about being 'on-grid', but rather in minimising the ownership of electronic/Smart devices that could put your personal information at risk and/or make you more vulnerable to being brainwashed or controlled, either now or in the future, by the system and the 'powers that be' at the helm.
You only have to witness the countless 'iZombies' present now in towns and cities, for evidence of that [less so now due to social distancing;)], 'connected' almost 24/7 to their soulless virtual world, subsequently becoming evermore dehumanised, and desensitised to brainwashing by technology - and yet they actually believe that they are in control of their lives! The reality of their unhealthy and potentially dangerous addiction, of course, is rather different.
Therefore, I simply minimise my ownership of such devices, and interaction with them, as much as possible, as stated earlier. And that *DOES* have a profound effect on how I live my life. This is regularly evidenced to me by what others now consider as 'the norm', but for me simply isn't.
Remember, for example, how you thought that 'no-one these days has a landline' and you tried to text me on mine?:D I regularly experience things like that, and where 'my world' is clearly quite different from that currently being 'enjoyed' by the masses...
Creating a 'virtual existence' on the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and such like, and having your behaviour subsequently controlled by it (and/or apps on a bleeping Smartphone), constantly alerting you to new messages from 'followers', is also another example - as is *actually* caring about that mind-numbing shite!:lol:
'Can I be your 'fwiend', pweese, I'm a nerdy loner with no life?' Fuck that....
I also outlined in detail before that, how my personal circumstances/lifestyle makes me less vulnerable than some to be reliant on or controlled by the system (or state), but of course ultimately all that could change if the global elite succeed in imposing a level of control on society that simply removes all of our civil rights and the levels of freedom that we currently enjoy.
So let's all hope (and pray) that that never happens!
Might catch you later over on the Spinning Today' thread, but unless I'm listening to something worthy of note, I'm not really big on listing the music I listen to, as it would take forever. Right, breaky beckons - I *need* my morning cappuccino!:cool:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 09:02
Remember, for example, how you thought that 'no-one these days has a landline' and you tried to text me on mine?:D
:o You're never going to let me forget that are you? :D
Might catch you later over on the Spinning Today' thread, but unless I'm listening to something worthy of note, I'm not really big on listing the music I listen to, as it would take forever. Right, breaky beckons - I *need* my morning cappuccino!:cool:
Cappuccino for me too now, won't be as posh as yours though.
Oh and don't give me that tosh about listing your tunes taking forever, you can (and do) rattle off War And Peace while waiting for the kettle to boil :ner:
Right, breaky beckons - I *need* my morning cappuccino!:cool:
Marco.
Ah, where will that caffeine hit come from if you're self sufficient? :eyebrows:
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 09:17
Ah, where will that caffeine hit come from if you're self sufficient? :eyebrows:
He'll just get up later (if that's possible) and skip breakfast :)
:o You're never going to let me forget that are you?:D
Lol, no!:ner:
Cappuccino for me too now, won't be as posh as yours though.
Oh and don't give me that tosh about listing your tunes taking forever, you can (and do) rattle off War And Peace while waiting for the kettle to boil :ner:
Well mine is pauper material compared with Grant's! Roll on lunch now, al fresco, and another BBQ later. Man, this lockdown is such a bind:D
Marco.
Ah, where will that caffeine hit come from if you're self sufficient? :eyebrows:
Didn't you hear? I'm emigrating to Cuba! Apparently though, they have a rather inefficient sewerage system, so I'm unsure if my somewhat 'potent' bottom will be allowed in.
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
15-04-2020, 19:59
That is the thing now. Unless they have had the virus and recovered, nobody is safe and you can't assume that normally enjoying good health is any kind of protection.
The whole uninfected population will need vaccination or thousands, maybe millions more will die, as this virus is unlikely to just fizzle out.
An acceptably safe vaccine is probably many months or more away on the distant horizon and even once administered, individuals will not be safe for weeks afterwards until it becomes effective.
We are all in a sort of limbo.
What I don't understand is where 60 + million doses of vaccine are coming from.. is the UK supposed to bid against the world for their share from a Chinese facility or similar??
loads of publicity about new hospitals (sorta) to cope but not a mention about having a vaccine production facility ready to go so the UK is not dependent on others. Same applies re antibody testing...
It's what is not being said that worries me.
Do you need a special facility to manufacture vaccines?
Pierre De Grenoble
15-04-2020, 20:05
Not that special but certainly dedicated and we are talking about 60 million doses in a very short order..
Open up the schools and use the chemistry labs.
Do schools still have chemistry labs?
Pigmy Pony
15-04-2020, 20:11
I don't see a vaccine being much of a money maker - by the time it comes online there will only be a couple of dozen left needing it, and you'd have to paddle 300miles up the Amazon to find them.
Hate to be "THAT Guy" but...
Over 2 Million cases worldwide now.
Thank God the World Health Origination can still protect us.
Nope.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/trump-halting-funding-coronavirus-response-200414222242638.html
"Land of the Free..and the home of the Brave..." WUT?
CV cases still fairly rare here in North Wales (and in Wrexham currently only 96): https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/full-list-confirmed-coronavirus-cases-18091846
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/lCEyoC.png
Always wanted to live in Anglesey... However, in South Wales the picture is sadly rather different.
Piggurs, I note that the cases in Lancashire are now at 1632. Good job that deaths from your Fart Gas haven't been measured!:D
Marco.
More cases per head of population in Wrexham than there are here in Stoke though. Per head we're about the same as Anglesey.
Not that it means anything as they only test hospital admissions. The reason that it has spread so fast is because most people who catch it don't have any symptoms or only have mild symptoms. Unlike previous covid viruses like SARS and MERS. So the reality is loads of people have got it or already had it and don't even know.
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2020, 07:33
Can't find any stats for Chorley, but there are 1,692 cases in Lancashire out of a population of 1,210,000.
More cases per head of population in Wrexham than there are here in Stoke though.
Are you talking about the county of Wrexham or the town? The two are rather different. The former has a population of (approx) 140,000, over 500km², with currently 96 reported cases of Coronavirus, and the latter obviously considerably less on all counts.
The population of Stoke-on-Trent is (approx) 270,000, and currently there are 230 reported cases of Coronavirus, over 93km².
Del's just done the maths (using the Percentage Calculator in the link below), and based on the population for Wrexham, makes it 0.069% have tested positive COVID-19, and for Stoke it's 0.085%. Anglesey, with a population of (approx) 70,000 and 28 reported cases, over 714.8 km², is 0.04%.
Therefore, based on those figures, you're incorrect.
https://percentagecalculator.net/
Marco.
I basing it on the population of the town not the whole county.
What's the population of the town of Wrexham? I can't find any info. Also, in terms of Anglesey, that a whole county, so you can't compare that with Stoke.
If you want to compare counties, then compare Staffordhire with Wrexham and Anglesey.
Marco.
wrexham town urban area is about half the size of the county borough, so about 70k
Now we just need to know how many cases of CV there is in the town of Wrexham:D
Given that there's only 96 in the whole county, it's got to be pretty low, probably 40-odd.
Marco.
probably wont be stated or maybe calculated. id expect close to 2/3 as they are closer together in the town. but spikes/clusters could screw that idea too, especially as its a low number. also i d expect true number to be times 50 or even 100.
probably wont be stated or maybe calculated. id expect close to 2/3 as they are closer together in the town. but spikes/clusters could screw that idea too, especially as its a low number. also i d expect true number to be times 50 or even 100.
Yes, but we're drifting now from the original point. Essentially there are too many variables to consider, in order to come to any definitive conclusions, but I stand by the figures I posted earlier, based on the point I was making about Wrexham, as a county:)
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-04-2020, 11:40
Figures will be way off anyway, as around 25% don't show any symptoms.
Indeed, but we can still examine and discuss the stats available:)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2020, 13:12
The stats can certainly be discussed, but without reliable like-for-like figures available, comparisons are pointless. Generally figures for North Wales appear to be quite low, but maybe they're just a bit behind the rest of the country, rather like they are with fashion :D
Yesh, I can confirm that from observing the frock selection in local charity shops:D
There's also a distinct lack of strappy high-heeled sandals in a size 9...
Marco.
Firebottle
16-04-2020, 14:00
I know, first world problems. I had to squeeze into an 8 when I was Miss Scarlett.
You're not tall enough to be Miss Scarlett.
AJSki2fly
16-04-2020, 16:01
I know, first world problems. I had to squeeze into an 8 when I was Miss Scarlett.
No knickers then!:lol:
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2020, 19:09
Miss Scarlett? Who's she?
No knickers then!:lol:
Hey, the best people don't!:D Just need to convince Del...;)
Marco.
AJSki2fly
16-04-2020, 20:25
Oh Dear, skid pants Marco[emoji53][emoji2960]
Skidmarks, yes:eyebrows:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2020, 20:43
Captain Scarlett's mrs.
Oh I remember her. Every week she's widowed. Then she isn't :)
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2020, 20:45
Hey, the best people don't!:D Just need to convince Del...;)
Marco.
I'll tell my old workbuddy's missus. She'll be so pleased she finally has your approval :)
hifi_dave
17-04-2020, 10:48
Commons Health Committee live on TV, reveals that there are no restrictions on people entering the country. Only restriction is that if they have symptoms, they should self isolate for 7 days. Meanwhile, thousands of Romanian fruit and veg pickers are being flown and bussed into East Anglia to pick the crops.
How is this possible/allowed ?
guess we need the crops picked...food is food, and folk here wont do it
hifi_dave
17-04-2020, 10:55
Not sure people here have been asked to do it. There must be thousands of youngsters itching for something to do during this lockdown. If they are on furlough, they will be able to earn some extra. If they are just out of work, they can earn a wage.
Point is, these are thousands of untested Romanians entering the country with no restrictions. If they are virus free, then that is OK but they are not being tested, just being asked if they feel unwell.
I agree they should be tested. Or they should be corralled for a min of 7 days.
Given that about 66 million of us in UK have not been tested either adding couple of thousand extra people will not make any difference to anything.
guess we need the crops picked...food is food, and folk here wont do it
...which is actually the biggest disgrace of all!:doh:
Get some of the idle dole chavs off of their backsides, and into the fields. It might shift some much needed blubber from some of them!!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
17-04-2020, 14:48
I blame the supermarkets. Their demand has made the fruit and veg industry as big as it is, and now that they rely on the supermarkets for business, said supermarkets squeeze the growers on price, who by now have no one else to sell it all too. So the only way for them to keep going is to pay take-the-piss wages, which only immigrant workers can afford to live on.
I'd have a go if we had Romania's cost of living, but I'm not gonna work myself into the ground for a pittance just so Tesco's shareholders can have another bumper year ;)
Also be quite a long commute every day from Chorley to Lincolnshire. If you really picked a lot each day you might just be able to cover the cost of the fuel.
Pigmy Pony
17-04-2020, 15:38
Yeah, I'd have to stay down there, and share a terraced house with 20 other people from Chorley. That's how it's done.
hifi_dave
17-04-2020, 16:26
I'm all for people coming here to work but in these times, do we need thousands of untested people coming into the country ?
I blame the supermarkets. Their demand has made the fruit and veg industry as big as it is, and now that they rely on the supermarkets for business, said supermarkets squeeze the growers on price, who by now have no one else to sell it all too. So the only way for them to keep going is to pay take-the-piss wages, which only immigrant workers can afford to live on.
First of all, the former is a good point, and one which I thoroughly agree with:)
However, it's amazing what you can 'afford', when you don't own a Smartphone, smoke, drink (to excess), have an addiction to scratch cards, aren't fed by KFC or McDonalds/don't have an addiction to junk food in general (instead know how to cook well from fresh ingredients), or a subscription to Netflix...;)
One of the reasons why immigrant workers can afford said "take-the-piss-wages" is because in general, they have a better work ethic than Brits, know how to live within their means, and so get their priorities right!
:exactly:
Marco.
As a farmer , who spent a fair few years doing lots on manual work - Bale stacking and shifting - most days !! Hoeing veg and topping and tailing swedes in the winter then loading them with a fork into a trailer ,I can tell you that a lot of people wouldn't want to even have a sniff at most of those things !! Picking up anything heavier than 25 kgs ,etc.
I dont doubt the wages are not top draw , but for me as a teen /20's man ,it was a great feeling to be fit and do the stuff .
However the artritis and knackered hip are probably the price I have paid ,for it !!
When you can stay at home on an artificial wage and not get a crease in your back - why should you do it
for poorer countries 300 a week+ is a great wage, even if its very hard work....ive done it myself. most youngish folk in this country wont work for that(with such hard work), but also the employers prefer the incomers as its cheaper for them, and the Romanians etc work hard
What I of course should have said ,was ,people on furlough ,probably cant work at fruit picking too as the tax implications will make it difficult too? :)
Scientists in Oxford behind vaccine trials say they are so confident in their attempt, they will manufacture one million doses while their trial is under way and they hope to be ready for September.
So, a reporter asks, how can the UK be sure to be front of the queue?
Alok Sharma says he has spoken to that team in recent days and the government was "continuing to support" the work.
But Sir Patrick Vallance again errs on the side of caution.
He says the researchers have done "a great job to get to where they are".
But while there are over 100 vaccine projects, he says the reality is that "each single project does not have a high probability of success".
Sir Patrick adds: "Everyone goes out with great enthusiasm... but it is never the case we know we have a vaccine that works."
He says once one is found, "safety is incredibly important" before the roll-out.
The vaccine may not come from the UK, however, and the government must "back lots of horses".
for poorer countries 300 a week+ is a great wage, even if its very hard work....ive done it myself. most youngish folk in this country wont work for that(with such hard work)...
Indeed, and *that* is the main problem. And you have to ask yourself WHY? It's because they consider such work as 'beneath' them and would prefer instead to lazily live off the state, or get into debt living lives that they simply can't afford...:rolleyes:
I'd make it compulsory for those young and fit enough to get up off their arses and out in the fields, just like National Service once was! That would soon 'refocus' their priorities:trust:
There's too much 'namby-pamby' the norm here, and an attitude of 'I deserve this'. You don't 'deserve' fuck all in this life, unless your WORK for it. Simples!
Marco.
InThe Sticks
17-04-2020, 17:15
What I of course should have said ,was ,people on furlough ,probably cant work at fruit picking too as the tax implications will make it difficult too? :)
Yup, if one is furloughed (like i am) one cannot undertake any paid work whatsoever.
We've even had a our work emails deleted so as to show we can't work from home. The government are very strict of their rules as to who gets the furlough money.
Pigmy Pony
17-04-2020, 17:18
First of all, the former is a good point, and one which I thoroughly agree with:)
However, it's amazing what you can 'afford', when you don't own a Smartphone, smoke, drink (to excess), have an addiction to scratch cards, aren't fed by KFC or McDonalds/don't have an addiction to junk food in general (instead know how to cook yourself from fresh ingredients), or a subscription to Netflix...;)
One of the reasons why immigrant workers can afford said "take-the-piss-wages" is because in general, they have a better work ethic than Brits, know how to live within their means, and so get their priorities right!
:exactly:
Marco.
I like the way you added that to the only 'vice' on that list that you indulge in, you little tinker! :drinking: Drinking ANY amount of alcohol is an unnecessary waste of money if you're on your arse.
I don't know how much these migrant workers earn, but I do know that from work I've carried out on some of these multi-let houses that there's no shortage of smartphones. Maybe they're like me, on a £13 a month sim-only contract. And when working in a foreign country hundreds of miles from their loved ones, 'Facetime' would be a Godsend, something your 10 year-old Nokia brick cannot do :D
No doubt we have plenty of bone idle little shites, but it's of our doing - we enable it! I'm not sure we can really blame them for not doing something they don't have to do. Especially when there's no financial incentive. You yourself don't go out to work, and the reason is you don't need to. Similar for them, the big difference being that they're content with a lower standard of living :)
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 17:26
Scientists in Oxford behind vaccine trials say they are so confident in their attempt, they will manufacture one million doses while their trial is under way and they hope to be ready for September.
So, a reporter asks, how can the UK be sure to be front of the queue?
Alok Sharma says he has spoken to that team in recent days and the government was "continuing to support" the work.
But Sir Patrick Vallance again errs on the side of caution.
He says the researchers have done "a great job to get to where they are".
But while there are over 100 vaccine projects, he says the reality is that "each single project does not have a high probability of success".
Sir Patrick adds: "Everyone goes out with great enthusiasm... but it is never the case we know we have a vaccine that works."
He says once one is found, "safety is incredibly important" before the roll-out.
The vaccine may not come from the UK, however, and the government must "back lots of horses".
See this is what I'm struggling to understand and what the majority do not seem to pick up on, time and time again we are seeing reports that until there is an effective vaccine, we are going to get wave after wave of virus surges.
I simply do not understand why the UK is not gearing up to manufacture 60 million doses in the UK in an extreme hurry ( same same for antibody tests)
Is the UK supposed to get in an another queue and wait whilst the rest of the world outbids us???
There are enough reports of the UK buying PPE from China of all places and that its coming in and is not as spec or under spec. its plastic / paper / rubber / similar, I don't get why millions isn't being spent on emergency manufacturing facilities. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!
If you can build "Nightingales" ( which I agree with) you can build manufacturing......
The UK (-NI) is an Island surrounded by fucking water, once self isolation hopefully brings infection figures down to low figures its Do an Oz & Kiwi. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE !!!!…
I seriously do not get why this is not being picked up on and fed to the great unwashed..... Is the UK that fucked up that it is uncapable of doing any of this or is all the UK capable of, is serving a fecking Costa coffee...…...
See this is what I'm struggling to understand and what the majority do not seem to pick up on, time and time again we are seeing reports that until there is an effective vaccine, we are going to get wave after wave of virus surges.
I simply do not understand why the UK is not gearing up to manufacture 60 million doses in the UK in an extreme hurry ( same same for antibody tests)
Is the UK supposed to get in an another queue and wait whilst the rest of the world outbids us???
There are enough reports of the UK buying PPE from China of all places and that its coming in and is not as spec or under spec. its plastic / paper / rubber / similar, I don't get why millions isn't being spent on emergency manufacturing facilities. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!
If you can build "Nightingales" ( which I agree with) you can build manufacturing......
The UK (-NI) is an Island surrounded by fucking water, once self isolation hopefully brings infection figures down to low figures its Do an Oz & Kiwi. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE !!!!…
I seriously do not get why this is not being picked up on and fed to the great unwashed..... Is the UK that fucked up that it is uncapable of doing any of this or is all the UK capable of, is serving a fecking Costa coffee...…...
Our vet was discussing the time frame for a vaccine with us earlier today !
It takes a hell of a long time and the practicalities of producing a mahoosive shed load of doses is really daunting
Firebottle
17-04-2020, 17:52
Good rant Steve and I can agree on the sentiment.
However creating a vaccine isn't a 5 day event, it has to target the virus very accurately. I am not a virologist (I wish, I am sure it is very interesting) but I know these things aren't simple.
I like the way you added that to the only 'vice' on that list that you indulge in, you little tinker! :drinking: Drinking ANY amount of alcohol is an unnecessary waste of money if you're on your arse.
Ha - you see that's where you're showing your Britishness! Europeans view having a glass of (inexpensive) wine with their meals, as you would do a cup of tea!:eyebrows:
It's not a luxury. And a glass of red wine at least has some medicinal properties, unlike most other forms of alcohol. Plus, these days a decent 'table wine' is as cheap as chips. I'd bet that, with some prudent buying, your average family of dole-scrounging chavs could be supplied with enough wine (or a small beer) to have with their meals, for the same as they spend annually on brand-named fizzy pop or cheap cider!
As ever, it's MORE about EDUCATION than anything else - and that also applies to knowing how to cook using fresh ingredients. So it's not all about the amount of money you have. Ultimately, it's HOW you spend what you've got that counts!!
I don't know how much these migrant workers earn, but I do know that from work I've carried out on some of these multi-let houses that there's no shortage of smartphones. Maybe they're like me, on a £13 a month sim-only contract. And when working in a foreign country hundreds of miles from their loved ones, 'Facetime' would be a Godsend, something your 10 year-old Nokia brick cannot do...
Indeed, and I'm all for their use for that purpose. *BUT* it doesn't mean that 'Chantelle from Chorley' [see what I did there:D] needs the latest iPhone (or such like) to message her braindead 'friends' on Facebook, when that money could be used instead to feed her and other members of her family (properly, with *real* food) for months.
No doubt we have plenty of bone idle little shites, but it's of our doing - we enable it!
I completely agree, and that's the root cause of the problem, and our propensity towards 'namby-pambyness', because you don't want to upset the poor little souls and force them out their comfort zones, no siree... However, if I were the one making the decisions, I'd soon DISABLE it, and force those who can work in the fields and pick crops, to do so.
That would then solve the need for us to 'import' immigrants.
I'm not sure we can really blame them for not doing something they don't have to do. Especially when there's no financial incentive. You yourself don't go out to work, and the reason is you don't need to.
I understand what you mean, but the BIG difference is, I've earned the right to not need to (although I still do some stuff), after having worked bloody hard, often over very long hours for years, when I was young, in order to be where I am now.
Similar for them, the big difference being that they're content with a lower standard of living :)
Again I understand what you mean, but often the more accurate reality is that they WANT MORE, and in fact, a HIGHER standard of living than they DESERVE. Quite simply, you don't 'deserve' anything in this life, other than help from those able to give it, if you *truly need* it, otherwise you only 'deserve' the standard of living you've earned!
Simple, but true.
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 17:59
I appreciate the point that a vaccine takes time to develope and has to be safe.. but once its there there needs to be UK facilities up and ready to go to make the quantities needed or is the UK supposed to wait in the queue whilst some where else in the world sells to the highest bidder...
So would you trust a vaccine for a virus, which in reality we know little about, to be 100% safe?
I certainly wouldn't, despite what the authorities (often with an agenda) say. And not only in terms of being safe, but also *actually* effective in immunising you from the virus, especially when, as it mutates [a near biological certainty], there are likely to be new strains of it in future.
We should be concentrating more on developing natural herd immunity, than on vaccines, which in reality simply make money for huge pharmaceutical companies, and those who own or control them.
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 18:34
So would you trust a vaccine for a virus, which in reality we know little about, to be 100% safe? I certainly wouldn't, despite what the authorities (with an agenda) say. And not only in terms of being safe, but also *actually* effective, especially when there are likely to more strains of it in future.
We should be concentrating more on developing natural herd immunity, than on vaccines, which in reality simply make money for huge pharmaceutical companies, and those who own or control them.
Marco.
I trust that the whole world is looking for a viable vaccine.. herd immunity is absolutely great if you survive but tough shit if you don't..... and I kind of think your missing the point once a viable vaccine is available you (government) gets samples, cultivates and makes 60 million doses... no big pharmas involved.
The problem with herd immunity is that you don't know who will be immune....
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 18:52
and like really.....
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nhs-staff-told-to-reuse-ppe-as-dept-of-health-reverses-guidelines/ar-BB12N0Vr?ocid=spartanntp
Oh dear we can't make it and China is selling it to Governments that have out bid us...
never mind eh... we can get a Costa Coffee.. oops no we can't they have had to shut down.
I trust that the whole world is looking for a viable vaccine.. herd immunity is absolutely great if you survive but tough shit if you don't.....
Just like the flu then!;)
I'm afraid that I haven't seen any stats yet I trust which prove *conclusively* that COVID-19 is deadlier than normal flu. That is, stats produced from empirical and unbiased INDEPENDENT RESEARCH, outside of what we are being fed by the government or mainstream media, especially the BBC!:doh:
and I kind of think your missing the point once a viable vaccine is available you (government) gets samples, cultivates and makes 60 million doses... no big pharmas involved.
Are the government getting those samples for free then, and those subsequently involved in 'cultivating' and rolling them out in vast quantities, as described, just doing it for the love of it? I was under a different impression.
The problem with herd immunity is that you don't know who will be immune....
Indeed; exactly the same as any other virus or disease humans get, and which is ultimately addressed by the population's natural immunity towards it. The fact is, normal flu kills millions around the world every year, and there's never been such a driving force/panic to vaccinate the WHOLE POPULATION for that, so *in reality* why is this virus any different?
<PAUSE, step out of the bubble we've all curently been put inside, and THINK about that for a moment...>
The problem is that the government and media have brainwashed us all into believing that this virus is deadlier, and we're all falling for it because we're not properly scrutinising the figures. And in terms of the former, the question we *should* all be asking is: WHY...?
I know that's a challenging and uncomfortable concept to embrace, and yes controversial, but we need to be asking more questions and challenging the authorities on what they're telling us about this whole situation, rather than simply sitting back, rolling over like sheep, and swallowing what we're fed as 'fact'.
Herd mentality, indeed....!
Marco [never shirks from saying tough things that sometimes need saying].
and like really.....
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nhs-staff-told-to-reuse-ppe-as-dept-of-health-reverses-guidelines/ar-BB12N0Vr?ocid=spartanntp
Oh dear we can't make it and China is selling it to Governments that have out bid us...
Ah, so it's not free, then?;)
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 19:29
Ah, so it's not free, then?;)
Marco.
of Course its not free, if the UK could set up and manufacture it wouldn't be free ( no such thing as a free lunch) but maybe front line workers could have some sort of protection. and it would at least be available.
Pierre De Grenoble
17-04-2020, 19:33
Just like the flu then!;)
I'm afraid that I haven't seen any stats yet which I trust that proves *conclusively* that COVID-19 is deadlier than normal flu. That is, stats produced from empirical and unbiased INDEPENDENT RESEARCH, outside of what we are being fed by the government or mainstream media, especially the BBC!:doh:
Are the government getting those samples for free then, and those subsequently involved in 'cultivating' and rolling them out in vast quantities, as described, simply doing it for the love of it? I was under a different impression.
Indeed; exactly the same as any other virus or disease humans get, which is ultimately addressed via herd immunity and people's natural immunity towards it. The fact is, normal flu kills millions around the world every year, and there's never been such a panic to vaccinate the WHOLE POPULATION for that, so *in reality* why is this virus any different?
PAUSE and THINK about it for a second.... The problem is that the government and media have brainwashed us all into believing differently. And the question we *should* all be asking is: WHY...?
I know that's a challenging and uncomfortable concept to embrace, and yes controversial, but we need to be asking more questions and challenging the authorities on what they're telling us about this whole situation, rather than simply rolling over and swallowing what we're fed as 'fact' like sheep.
Herd mentality, indeed....!
Marco [never shirks from saying tough things that sometimes need saying].
Sorry Marco I simply do not understand where you are coming from and I don't think I want to. Covid aint the Flu. Stay Safe
Covid aint the Flu.
Yes, so we're all being *told*...
No problem, Steve, I didn't really expect a different answer. That's what happens when you force people out of the comfort zones, and apply some lateral thinking...;)
Indeed, above all, stay safe.
Marco.
of Course its not free, if the UK could set up and manufacture it wouldn't be free ( no such thing as a free lunch) but maybe front line workers could have some sort of protection. and it would at least be available.
Sure, but the point then is that certain people will profit from promotion of the vaccine, thus have a legitimate agenda for doing so.
Marco.
AJSki2fly
17-04-2020, 20:59
I think I am starting loose the plot with this thread.
Firstly look at this https://virusncov.com and this is in just over 100 days with major restrictions put in place in most countries for the past month. Flu does not spread at this rate!
This is not flu read this https://www.newscientist.com/term/covid-19/ it is basically related to SARS and is much more infectious!
The key points here are:-
if you just leave it to spread naturally then the infection and death rate will be very quick and rapidly swamping all hospitals and cause major panic, not that it is not already.
No one and I repeat no one knows if you get it once and survive if you are fully Immune and cannot get it again or for how long. In fact there are factual cases of secondary infections resulting in death. So in the worst case it may never end.
It is also becoming clear that the more an individual is exposed to coronavirus then the bigger the dose and the sicker the person generally becomes. This is becoming evident with frontline workers with higher levels of fatality due to exposure.
Not one scientist is certain they can produce a reliable vaccine that will be long term effective. In fact some believe the virus may be mutating, which if true will make production of a useful vaccine virtually impossible to achieve.
So the reality is a lot of people are dying and quickly and this is with the current restrictions in place, and no one really knows how to stop Covid19 at the moment.
Not one scientist is certain they can produce a reliable vaccine that will be long term effective. In fact some believe the virus may be mutating, which if true will make production of a useful vaccine virtually impossible to achieve.
For me, that's the key quote from your post, Adrian, and one I thoroughly agree with. That is why I believe vaccinations will largely be pointless, other than certain parties benefiting from it, financially and otherwise.
As for the rest, whilst I totally respect your opinion and consider that *some* of what you say is true, I don't believe it tells the full story.
Therefore, I stand by what I said before about the need for asking more questions, and challenging the information we're being given, especially by the government, rather than just automatically accepting it, as I firmly believe there's a hidden agenda behind all this.
And what that agenda is, has yet to be revealed.
Marco.
.
Light Dependant Resistor
17-04-2020, 21:19
... and not helped with this https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/coronavirus-australia-live-updates-covid19-latest-news/12160446
Today's figures which you can compare
cases deaths
Virginia 7,491 231
Michigan 29,263 2,093
Minnesota 1912 94
as a result of that selfish politically motivated disinformation, lets review what the figures are a week, then a month from now in those three states.
You can follow the inevitable increase in mortality and cases arising in all states of the USA here:
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/coronavirus-u-s-map-where-virus-has-been-confirmed-across-n1124546
Ninanina
17-04-2020, 21:21
Thread was too long for me to read :doh: :lol:
Nothing legit about the cases in China .. surely.. you can't trust em :(
Light Dependant Resistor
17-04-2020, 22:00
For me, that's the key quote from your post, Adrian, and one I thoroughly agree with, which is why I believe vaccinations will largely be pointless, other than certain parties benefiting from it both financially and in other ways.
As for the rest, whilst I totally respect your opinion and consider that *some* of what you say is the truth, I don't believe it tells the full story of what happening, and so stand by what I said before about asking more questions, and challenging what we're being told, especially by the government, as I still believe there's a hidden agenda behind all of this.
And what that agenda is, has still to be revealed.
Marco.
.
Hi Marco
What is occurring in Australia is a developing agenda, government is beginning a process of tracking peoples movement with mobile phones, using a guise of Covid 19 - but what Australians are not being told is who is behind that tracking and
likely that the tracking then is ongoing , There is also a economic madness in massive amounts of money being injected into maintaining the traditional model of employment, where businesses are being paid to
retain employees - despite no work output, with monies being paid to employees bank accounts. It adds up to a dreadful solidifying of government and control of citizens, with more control and less proper services in subsequent years
Had they been clever each employee would have been set up with a work station at home to continue where possible, that same work. The courier and delivery firms would have grown to accommodate, and internet
would assist that communication. But like dinosaurs they presently believe printing money, to retain the old ways will make things better.
It is a sad state of affairs there, but quite expected with their government . Here in NZ things are much better we are still at Level 4, cases of covid 19, are dropping dramatically , there is far less funding of business not producing any output , rather forward thinking allowance for debt has increased It is likely NZ will reopen some areas of business again shortly when figures improve further https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-current-cases
I think I am starting loose the plot with this thread.
Firstly look at this https://virusncov.com (https://virusncov.com) and this is in just over 100 days with major restrictions put in place in most countries for the past month. Flu does not spread at this rate!
This is not flu read this https://www.newscientist.com/term/covid-19/ (https://www.newscientist.com/term/covid-19/) it is basically related to SARS and is much more infectious!
The key points here are:-
if you just leave it to spread naturally then the infection and death rate will be very quick and rapidly swamping all hospitals and cause major panic, not that it is not already.
No one and I repeat no one knows if you get it once and survive if you are fully Immune and cannot get it again or for how long. In fact there are factual cases of secondary infections resulting in death. So in the worst case it may never end.
It is also becoming clear that the more an individual is exposed to coronavirus then the bigger the dose and the sicker the person generally becomes. This is becoming evident with frontline workers with higher levels of fatality due to exposure.
Not one scientist is certain they can produce a reliable vaccine that will be long term effective. In fact some believe the virus may be mutating, which if true will make production of a useful vaccine virtually impossible to achieve.
So the reality is a lot of people are dying and quickly and this is with the current restrictions in place, and no one really knows how to stop Covid19 at the moment.
Everything I've read on COVID-19 supports what you've said Adrian. It is nothing like the flu. As well as what you've written, it is between 10 and 30 times more deadly than the flu (0.1% vs. 1 to 3%) especially for older and vulnerable people. The incubation period is also far longer. Social distancing is the only real weapon we have at the moment.
No doubt it puts flu in the shade for both a contagion and it's virulence.
Not sure life will ever be normal again.
Some sort of distancing is going to become the norm. New ways of working etc will need to come in. Holidays may become a thing of the past. Etc, etc.
It is nothing like the flu. As well as what you've written, it is between 10 and 30 times more deadly than the flu (0.1% vs. 1 to 3%) especially for older and vulnerable people. The incubation period is also far longer. Social distancing is the only real weapon we have at the moment.
Well, Alex, many of the symptoms are similar, and simply being exacerbated in people with underlying health conditions, as you've outlined, particularly those with existing respiratory problems.
Also, let me be crystal clear: I'm not saying that in some cases COVID-19 isn't more serious than flu, or disputing what's happening (or has happened, in terms of symptoms) to those who've unfortunately got it or had it; simply the overall death figures were being given, especially by the government and mainstream media.
I'm sceptical because I'm suspicious that a significant number of people, who would've died anyway from existing underlying health conditions, in some cases unexpected or unpredictable, especially in the young and/or seemingly otherwise fit, are being added to the death toll, in order to make the situation appear MUCH worse than it actually is, [for an as yet undisclosed purpose].
That is why I don't trust the figures, and therefore don't believe that, in terms of those who are being shown as having died *directly* from COVID-19 [the KEY word here], are as high as we're being led to believe.
Marco.
Ninanina
17-04-2020, 23:09
That makes sense Marco..
Unfortunatley Colin has an "underlying health condition"... his immune system is on the floor due to his condition... he also has asthma.. that all puts him at serious risk which is why I see him, and chat to him, on the street when I go round..
Well I predict that over the next week we'll see the death figures drop significantly as the lockdown has its effect. A virus can't survive without new hosts. Give it a month and cases will have dropped so sharply they will be able to move on to containment strategies. It will fizzle out like the Spanish Flu did. The economy will bounce back surprisingly quickly. By Christmas it will all be a footnote in history.
Far too much pearl clutching going on. Try not reading or watching the media, it doesn't help. They always come out with the wildest stuff just to get the punters tuning in.
RobbieGong
17-04-2020, 23:21
Well I predict that over the next week we'll see the death figures drop significantly as the lockdown has its effect. A virus can't survive without new hosts. Give it a month and cases will have dropped so sharply they will be able to move on to containment strategies. It will fizzle out like the Spanish Flu did. The economy will bounce back surprisingly quickly. By Christmas it will all be a footnote in history.
Far too much pearl clutching going on. Try not reading or watching the media, it doesn't help. They always come out with the wildest stuff just to get the punters tuning in.
:)
Ninanina
17-04-2020, 23:24
Well I predict that over the next week we'll see the death figures drop significantly as the lockdown has its effect. A virus can't survive without new hosts. Give it a month and cases will have dropped so sharply they will be able to move on to containment strategies. It will fizzle out like the Spanish Flu did. The economy will bounce back surprisingly quickly. By Christmas it will all be a footnote in history.
Far too much pearl clutching going on. Try not reading or watching the media, it doesn't help. They always come out with the wildest stuff just to get the punters tuning in.
I agree Martin... we are already seeing new cases dropping off so the death figures will hopefully follow...apparently the 'R' figure is already less than 1...that's all good news
I'm also sure the economy will indeed bounce back quite quickly after all this
Well I predict that over the next week we'll see the death figures drop significantly as the lockdown has its effect. A virus can't survive without new hosts. Give it a month and cases will have dropped so sharply they will be able to move on to containment strategies. It will fizzle out like the Spanish Flu did. The economy will bounce back surprisingly quickly. By Christmas it will all be a footnote in history.
Far too much pearl clutching going on. Try not reading or watching the media, it doesn't help. They always come out with the wildest stuff just to get the punters tuning in.
As I've said before, I *really* [and I mean REALLY] hope you're right... Never more in the history of my life have I wanted to be wrong!
Marco.
That makes sense Marco..
Unfortunatley Colin has an "underlying health condition"... his immune system is on the floor due to his condition... he also has asthma.. that all puts him at serious risk which is why I see him, and chat to him, on the street when I go round..
Indeed, Bev. You really need to wrap him up in cotton wool, as far as possible, until this thing is over. As ever, when you chat to him, give him my best:)
Marco.
Ninanina
18-04-2020, 00:00
Indeed, Bev. You really need to wrap him up in cotton wool, as far as possible, until this thing is over. As ever, when you chat to him, give him my best:)
Marco.
You are right there Marco..... I'll send him your best... he'll love that...
anthonyTD
18-04-2020, 13:48
I share your frustration here Steve,
This country used to be able to call itself Great Britain for a reason, we were Great, some of the best Scientists, Engineer's, and inventions came from Great Britain, now because we have had feckless governments, and Feckless people running the country for what seems forever, we cannot even turn our hands to making simple protective aprons, or masks for those left trying to look after us :doh:
We have no decent industry left, we have factories sitting idle, that could be re-used to make the necessary equipment we need, but no, we are still relying on the shit coming in from the very country that caused all this in the first place,:rolleyes: WAKE UP BRITAIN, we need to stand on our own two feet again, especialy where manufacturing is concerned.
If we come out of this anytime soon, and we slide back into the same routine as before, then all i can say is "we get what we deserve"
Evil prospers when good men do nothing!
See this is what I'm struggling to understand and what the majority do not seem to pick up on, time and time again we are seeing reports that until there is an effective vaccine, we are going to get wave after wave of virus surges.
I simply do not understand why the UK is not gearing up to manufacture 60 million doses in the UK in an extreme hurry ( same same for antibody tests)
Is the UK supposed to get in an another queue and wait whilst the rest of the world outbids us???
There are enough reports of the UK buying PPE from China of all places and that its coming in and is not as spec or under spec. its plastic / paper / rubber / similar, I don't get why millions isn't being spent on emergency manufacturing facilities. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!
If you can build "Nightingales" ( which I agree with) you can build manufacturing......
The UK (-NI) is an Island surrounded by fucking water, once self isolation hopefully brings infection figures down to low figures its Do an Oz & Kiwi. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE !!!!…
I seriously do not get why this is not being picked up on and fed to the great unwashed..... Is the UK that fucked up that it is uncapable of doing any of this or is all the UK capable of, is serving a fecking Costa coffee...…...
The govt have pissed about over ppe so badly it criminal. Other countries all managed. Hell you can but the stuff on amazon but the govt can't get it.
That's what you get when you allow a one party state I guess
AJSki2fly
18-04-2020, 15:04
See this is what I'm struggling to understand and what the majority do not seem to pick up on, time and time again we are seeing reports that until there is an effective vaccine, we are going to get wave after wave of virus surges.
Yes this is probably where we and the rest of the world are heading with this COVID-19 shit. To try and put this in perspective a simple coronavirus is basically a cold virus, this was explained by a leading Cambridge scientist today on BBC Radio 4 involved in the search for a COVID19 vaccine, also he stated that this Coronavirus that leads to COVID 19 is basically SARS2. He said that a Vaccine was on its way and going into human trials but they had no idea how effective it will be or for how long, they will not have a clear picture on that until end of August, and that was only if they got a large enough trial. He also mention future waves of COVID19.
I simply do not understand why the UK is not gearing up to manufacture 60 million doses in the UK in an extreme hurry ( same same for antibody tests)
As above confidence of a reliable vaccine at present in the near future is low.
With respect to antibody test it is probably a waste of time as most scientists believe that very few people even those that have been seriously ill develop antibodies and those few that have only have them for a short time, so re-infection is and does occur.
Is the UK supposed to get in an another queue and wait whilst the rest of the world outbids us???
Well if it is true that antibody test are not effective we have already paid for millions of anitbody tests and if the above is correct then they may be useless anyway and where web are in the queue is irrelevant.
There are enough reports of the UK buying PPE from China of all places and that its coming in and is not as spec or under spec. its, I don't get why millions isn't being spent on emergency manufacturing facilities. ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!!![/B
I tend to agree that it isn't hard to make some of the PPE stuff. However I suspect that we do not hold lots of stock of the required plastic / paper / rubber / similar to make the kit,. Most industries today run on the just in time manufacturing and delivery model and that is across the world. China, India and a few others are some of the major manufacturers in the whole world of many products and will hold the material stock or will make it, that is why we have access to lots of cheap products. We and others in the West went down the outsourcing route some decades ago. So even if we built the manufacturing facilities in the UK we would not necessarily have or be able to get the materials to manufacture the kit at high volumes and in the end might take longer and be more costly, certainly in the short term.
]If you can build "Nightingales" ( which I agree with) you can build manufacturing......
I am not sure if you are referring to PPE and/or the Covid19 and Antibody tests, if it is manufacturing of the Tests then we may have insufficient manufacturing tech in this area to actually have the capability to manufacture millions of tests be them Antibody or Covid19 tests. A country like Germany that has a big pharmaceutical manufacturing base has a good chance of doing this but I doubt we have and what we can do will be limited.
The UK (-NI) is an Island surrounded by fucking water, once self isolation hopefully brings infection figures down to low figures its Do an Oz & Kiwi. [B]ITS NOT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE !!!!…
Yes but are you saying that we are to keep all boarders closed to stop contamination coming in, what about food and drug supplies let alone other needed products, they do not come in by robot but with people and they all get handled to some extend. It is not straight forward I am afraid, just think about the process you need to go through when a package arrives on your doorstep to ensure you do not get contaminated by it, imaging doing that with millions of items as they come in over our boarder.
I seriously do not get why this is not being picked up on and fed to the great unwashed..... Is the UK that fucked up that it is uncapable of doing any of this or is all the UK capable of, is serving a fecking Costa coffee...…...
I suspect that the sad truth is the majority do not necessarily get or fully understand these issues, or even want to consider the issues above, most people just want to know when it will end and when they can go back to their normal routine, pack the kids off to school, go to work, order in the evening takeaway and sit down and watch the soap and latest reality show, and book the next holiday abroad.
Remember FEAR induced into a mass population can quickly turn it into an uncontrolled rabble, and in that situation matters could quickly get worse.
I believe from listening and reading sensible source on COVID-19 it is clear, at least to me, that their is no simple solution, it is very serious and no-one is quite sure how it will be solved. It may be that we all just have to live with it and accept that people will die form it, how many and for how long is certainly not at all understood at present, at least in my view.
Steve, please don't take what I have written the wrong way, I am just trying to clarify some points you raised as I see them.
Pierre De Grenoble
18-04-2020, 17:13
Hi Adrian, appreciate your detailed reply and I agree with a lot of but would like to comment further on a few things..
Well if it is true that antibody test are not effective we have already paid for millions of anitbody tests and if the above is correct then they may be useless anyway and where web are in the queue is irrelevant.
Agreed but if a an accurate Test is developed there should be manufacturing ready and waiting to go. No way on this planet should the UK be waiting in the wings to buy from China / whoever.
I tend to agree that it isn't hard to make some of the PPE stuff. However I suspect that we do not hold lots of stock of the required plastic / paper / rubber / similar to make the kit,. Most industries today run on the just in time manufacturing and delivery model and that is across the world. China, India and a few others are some of the major manufacturers in the whole world of many products and will hold the material stock or will make it, that is why we have access to lots of cheap products. We and others in the West went down the outsourcing route some decades ago. So even if we built the manufacturing facilities in the UK we would not necessarily have or be able to get the materials to manufacture the kit at high volumes and in the end might take longer and be more costly, certainly in the short term.
Really doesn't matter what the base materials needed are. The UK should be capable of making them and making the PPE. I read reports that the NHS will not get properly sorted for this UNTILL June. really??? Could not some highly paid individuals have wondered that when China shut down in Feb it just might effect the UK's supply chains and then maybe thought perhaps we should start hedging our bets.I am not sure if you are referring to PPE and/or the Covid19 and Antibody tests, if it is manufacturing of the Tests then we may have insufficient manufacturing tech in this area to actually have the capability to manufacture millions of tests be them Antibody or Covid19 tests. A country like Germany that has a big pharmaceutical manufacturing base has a good chance of doing this but I doubt we have and what we can do will be limited.
I understand that UK Bio Med Tech ( If that is the expression) is some of the best in the world. Its simply a case of build the facilities ASAP. if you can put "Nightingales" into Stadiums it's not rocket science to do the same with manufacturing...
Yes but are you saying that we are to keep all boarders closed to stop contamination coming in, what about food and drug supplies let alone other needed products, they do not come in by robot but with people and they all get handled to some extend. It is not straight forward I am afraid, just think about the process you need to go through when a package arrives on your doorstep to ensure you do not get contaminated by it, imaging doing that with millions of items as they come in over our boarder.
Its really VERY easy to sort this. An EU driver brings a trailer of whatever into the UK on a ferry. He takes that trailor to a big car park, unhooks and connects to a trailer going to the EU, drives back onto a ferry and goes back to the EU. The trailer he dropped is picked up by a UK driver and is delivered.
I'll admit to being a political animal, but my Ma who is 86 isn't. she lives in an a warden assisted flat 250 miles away. she has enough underling symtems that mean one sniff of Covid and she is dead. She told me last week that she thought Billy Boris was a hero because the prick had caught Covid and survived (so far)
She really couldn't see that the reason the NHS is struggling is because of failed government policies. austerity cuts etc etc etc.
Stay safe
anthonyTD
18-04-2020, 17:20
Fear induced is exactly how i would describe what's been done by the mainstream news, and media since all this started!
Remember FEAR induced into a mass population can quickly turn it into an uncontrolled rabble, and in that situation matters could quickly get worse.
AJSki2fly
18-04-2020, 17:35
Hi Adrian, appreciate your detailed reply and I agree with a lot of but would like to comment further on a few things..
Well if it is true that antibody test are not effective we have already paid for millions of anitbody tests and if the above is correct then they may be useless anyway and where web are in the queue is irrelevant.
Agreed but if a an accurate Test is developed there should be manufacturing ready and waiting to go. No way on this planet should the UK be waiting in the wings to buy from China / whoever.
I tend to agree that it isn't hard to make some of the PPE stuff. However I suspect that we do not hold lots of stock of the required plastic / paper / rubber / similar to make the kit,. Most industries today run on the just in time manufacturing and delivery model and that is across the world. China, India and a few others are some of the major manufacturers in the whole world of many products and will hold the material stock or will make it, that is why we have access to lots of cheap products. We and others in the West went down the outsourcing route some decades ago. So even if we built the manufacturing facilities in the UK we would not necessarily have or be able to get the materials to manufacture the kit at high volumes and in the end might take longer and be more costly, certainly in the short term.
Really doesn't matter what the base materials needed are. The UK should be capable of making them and making the PPE. I read reports that the NHS will not get properly sorted for this UNTILL June. really??? Could not some highly paid individuals have wondered that when China shut down in Feb it just might effect the UK's supply chains and then maybe thought perhaps we should start hedging our bets.I am not sure if you are referring to PPE and/or the Covid19 and Antibody tests, if it is manufacturing of the Tests then we may have insufficient manufacturing tech in this area to actually have the capability to manufacture millions of tests be them Antibody or Covid19 tests. A country like Germany that has a big pharmaceutical manufacturing base has a good chance of doing this but I doubt we have and what we can do will be limited.
I understand that UK Bio Med Tech ( If that is the expression) is some of the best in the world. Its simply a case of build the facilities ASAP. if you can put "Nightingales" into Stadiums it's not rocket science to do the same with manufacturing...
Yes but are you saying that we are to keep all boarders closed to stop contamination coming in, what about food and drug supplies let alone other needed products, they do not come in by robot but with people and they all get handled to some extend. It is not straight forward I am afraid, just think about the process you need to go through when a package arrives on your doorstep to ensure you do not get contaminated by it, imaging doing that with millions of items as they come in over our boarder.
Its really VERY easy to sort this. An EU driver brings a trailer of whatever into the UK on a ferry. He takes that trailor to a big car park, unhooks and connects to a trailer going to the EU, drives back onto a ferry and goes back to the EU. The trailer he dropped is picked up by a UK driver and is delivered.
I'll admit to being a political animal, but my Ma who is 86 isn't. she lives in an a warden assisted flat 250 miles away. she has enough underling symtems that mean one sniff of Covid and she is dead. She told me last week that she thought Billy Boris was a hero because the prick had caught Covid and survived (so far)
She really couldn't see that the reason the NHS is struggling is because of failed government policies. austerity cuts etc etc etc.
Stay safe
I think you may be under-estimating just how long it takes to build a unit that can manufacture a vaccine for example or testing kits. However we should be getting prepared for producing one if found.
It does matter what the base materials are if we do not have them, unless we can manufacture them quickly, which may not be the case. If we can’t source the materials then we have an issue.
Yes we are very good at bio tech, a very good friend had worked in the industry for 40 years in senior roles managing drug testing. We do not necessarily have the equipment in volume to produce vaccines for millions although I believe there are 2 companies with low volume capability.
As for the trucks that’s not the issue, it is also ensuring what’s on them is not contaminated and how they are handled and stored until known to be safe.
I know where you are coming from but I don’t think it’s as simple as some would like it to be.
anthonyTD
18-04-2020, 17:43
Its funny how we can still find plenty of the base materials to produce shit that nobody needs! :doh:
How many types of plastic do you think goes into making car parts, how many types of plastics does it take to make milk bottles, how many types of plastics does it take to make the shit throw away toys in happy meals, i could go on, but some dont seem to want to think about anything else outside of their own defeatest mind set.
Good job the men and women of the second world war didnt have the same mindset, they managed to turn factories that were originaly producing all sorts, into making Tanks, aircraft, amunition, etc,etc...
Pierre De Grenoble
18-04-2020, 17:45
I think you may be under-estimating just how long it takes to build a unit that can manufacture a vaccine for example or testing kits. However we should be getting prepared for producing one if found.
It does matter what the base materials are if we do not have them, unless we can manufacture them quickly, which may not be the case. If we can’t source the materials then we have an issue.
Yes we are very good at bio tech, a very good friend had worked in the industry for 40 years in senior roles managing drug testing. We do not necessarily have the equipment in volume to produce vaccines for millions although I believe there are 2 companies with low volume capability.
As for the trucks that’s not the issue, it is also ensuring what’s on them is not contaminated and how they are handled and stored until known to be safe.
I know where you are coming from but I don’t think it’s as simple as some would like it to be.
I can see your argument but this is where we agree to disagree. you see I believe that any government should have back ground processes to cover the majority of situations that can occur to the people it governs for. Our current shower of shit ( not saying any one else could do better) ignored a pandemic white paper 4 years ago ( austerity) and here we are today.
Pierre De Grenoble
18-04-2020, 17:49
Its funny how we can still find plenty of the base materials to produce shit that nobody needs! :doh:
How many types of plastic do you think goes into making car parts, how many types of plastics does it take to make milk bottles, how many types of plastics does it take to make the shit throw away toys in happy meals, i could go on, but some dont seem to want to think about anything else outside of their own defeatest mind set.
Good job the men and women of the second world war didnt have the same mindset, they managed to turn factories that were originaly producing all sorts, into making Tanks, aircraft, amunition, etc,etc...
Well said, it really doesn't matter what is needed. it must / should be possible to adapt something if it's needed.
anthonyTD
18-04-2020, 17:58
Makes my blood boil Steve, its because of folk continualy making excuses, and therefore displaying a total lack of ingenuity, and resourcefulness, that we are in this current situation of no PPE for those out there trying to save lives.
Well said, it really doesn't matter what is needed. it must / should be possible to adapt something if it's needed.
Pierre De Grenoble
18-04-2020, 18:04
Makes my blood boil Steve, its because of folk continualy making excuses, and therefore displaying a total lack of ingenuity, and resourcefulness, that we are in this current situation of no PPE for those out there trying to save lives.
I'm an atheist but amen to that....
There s a worldwide shortage of PPE, folks don't seem to get that ?. Were using about 150 k a day of gowns the guy said in the briefing today. The huge shipment from China the other day did nt even turn up.
Still if your a clever arse on social media, twitter, etc the world is easy to run :eyebrows:
Pierre De Grenoble
18-04-2020, 18:38
There s a worldwide shortage of PPE, folks don't seem to get that ?. Were using about 150 k a day of gowns the guy said in the briefing today. The huge shipment from China the other day did nt even turn up.
Still if your a clever arse on social media, twitter, etc the world is easy to run :eyebrows:
But there's the thing I really believe that the TWATS we pay to sort this should be aware of what's going on and alarm bells should have been ringing two months ago. am I and mine supposed to accept possible death because this government is full of bullshitters & liars.... remember that our beloved health minister has been lying through his teeth telling the world that all was good with PPE until 2 days ago.
Let’s not forget the Torres have already shown their “commitment” to the NHS when they applauded blocking a nurses pay rise.
https://youtu.be/s6_MfQ9FloE
AJSki2fly
19-04-2020, 08:18
There s a worldwide shortage of PPE, folks don't seem to get that ?. Were using about 150 k a day of gowns the guy said in the briefing today. The huge shipment from China the other day did nt even turn up.
Still if your a clever arse on social media, twitter, etc the world is easy to run :eyebrows:
Yes I agree. I was trying to point out that some of this stuff is not as straight forward or easy to achieve as some would like to think. Yes perhaps all countries should have planned for a major pandemic and dealing with it. Actually perhaps they did and decided that it would be just too costly to get everything in place and ready to go and that the best solution was to wait for it to happen and take the fall out.
Yes I agree. I was trying to point out that some of this stuff is not as straight forward or easy to achieve as some would like to think. Yes perhaps all countries should have planned for a major pandemic and dealing with it. Actually perhaps they did and decided that it would be just too costly to get everything in place and ready to go and that the best solution was to wait for it to happen and take the fall out.
Hi Adrian, thanks for that. Well, there s one thing I think we can say for certain. Never since w/w 2 has one band of people ( NHS ) given so much to so many :)
More than a fifth of NHS Directors are paid more than the Prime Minister. Given that health is supposedly their speciality and that we are told that these salaries are necessary to 'attract the best people' you have to wonder why they did not take it on themselves to arrange more PPE when it began to look like a pandemic was a real possibility. Isn't that the sort of knowledge and expertise we are paying them for?
But I suppose that they are well aware that the typical punter will blame any shortcomings in their performance on the politicians and so don't need to worry about such things.
anthonyTD
19-04-2020, 09:41
You have to wonder about a few things since all this started, first, the Hand Gel fiasco [or the lack of it] what was that all about, the one thing that we were told would seriously disrupt the spread of the virus was clean hands, and what happend, after a day or so, no hand gel left on the shelves anywhere :scratch: you would think that being such a valued defence against the spread of the virus, that that would be an absolute priority, hence a huge step up in production should have been put in place imediately, was it ?
Next, we were warned back as far as 2007, by credible people, that China, and their practices, whether that be the experimentation on Corona Virus, or their eating habits, was a potential high risk of a world wide catastrophe, did anyone listen ?
As far as the PPE scenario is concerned, the other major set back to getting anything put into production in a hurry is the legislation bullshit that everything made in this country, or any country attached to the european union has to be put through, yet, we continualy welcome, and receive equipment, and products from countries including China, which have undergone no such testing, or legislation.
Here's a test for anyone in the manufacturing sector, try and sell a product, anything to China, and see what you have to go through before they will even consider whether your product is something they need ? its a two way street folks, with only one way traffic.
I sincerely appologise for my rants of late, but the whole situation has seriously grinded my gears!
Yes I agree. I was trying to point out that some of this stuff is not as straight forward or easy to achieve as some would like to think. Yes perhaps all countries should have planned for a major pandemic and dealing with it. Actually perhaps they did and decided that it would be just too costly to get everything in place and ready to go and that the best solution was to wait for it to happen and take the fall out.
I think that’s the most likely scenario. You could see this coming by late Jan and yet no decisive action until mid March for most countries. No country wanted to be seen to “over-react” by closing airports, quarantining, testing and tracing and imposing lockdowns where cases were found. The UK government was even more inept than most and it’s citizens are now beginning to pay the price.
Mikeandvan
19-04-2020, 13:14
Good news from the US
https://time.com/5823384/remdesivier-coronavirus-study-results/
Bad news from the UK for the government.
https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh
Pierre De Grenoble
20-04-2020, 17:34
Interesting to hear on the news that whilst a shipment of PPE from Turkey is long overdue, a shipment from Myanmar arrived today. Really??? Burma to the rescue of the UK???, really???
pubs not opening till Christmas will be a huge blow for pub industry.
pubs not opening till Christmas will be a huge blow for pub industry.
Where did you hear that, Pete?
Marco.
Where did you hear that, Pete?
Marco. Yup, they suggested that was a likely scenario on radio earlier today. Not definite though and not sure of source either.
Personally, I can't see it being as long as that, as most of them would be out of business by then!
What I want to know is what's happening to the footy season, in the top divisions, both north and south of the border!! :exactly:
Liverpool and Celtic rightly made champions - come on, you know it makes sense!:yay:;)
Marco.
I've settled my mind I may not get out for a year, or in my case maybe a lifetime.
Pigmy Pony
20-04-2020, 20:28
Personally, I can't see it being as long as that, as most of them would be out of business by then!
What I want to know is what's happening to the footy season, in the top divisions, both north and south of the border!! :exactly:
Liverpool and Celtic rightly made champions - come on, you know it makes sense!:yay:;)
Marco.
I expect it would be many months before any football matches happen, at least ones that can be attended by crowds. Maybe it can happen if they play in empty stadia and just be televised. I realise what a blow this will be to footie fans, but I believe the government is planning to hand out colouring books and crayons to keep them happy in the meantime :)
Bloody hell - US oil producers paying buyers to take it off their hands :eek:
I expect it would be many months before any football matches happen, at least ones that can be attended by crowds. Maybe it can happen if they play in empty stadia and just be televised. I realise what a blow this will be to footie fans, but I believe the government is planning to hand out colouring books and crayons to keep them happy in the meantime :)
:lolsign:
Crayons! Yay... Can i bagsie the purple ones? PUHLEESE...
Marco.
heard it mentioned on news this morning. Going to be a very different landscape if we ever let loose again.
mad-moon
21-04-2020, 00:55
I thought we were all supposed to be isoltaed in the house....I find this unbelievable but Our Council...South Tyneside District Council., In the Northeast of England., sent a Gas Engineer to my Daughters house, done up like a spaceman, to do the yearly safety service.....It seems it's ok for him to protect himself from my family, but what is he taking into the house with him....and of course, how many services will he have done today??....
Oh...my Daughter lives at home with her Fiance and their 1 year old boy...and she is also pregnant
Pigmy Pony
21-04-2020, 06:14
I thought we were all supposed to be isoltaed in the house....I find this unbelievable but Our Council...South Tyneside District Council., In the Northeast of England., sent a Gas Engineer to my Daughters house, done up like a spaceman, to do the yearly safety service.....It seems it's ok for him to protect himself from my family, but what is he taking into the house with him....and of course, how many services will he have done today??....
Oh...my Daughter lives at home with her Fiance and their 1 year old boy...and she is also pregnant
Yeah that's got to be risky, gas safety checks don't take long, he could be at ten different addresses in one day drastically shortening the odds. Mrs. P would have sent him packing, I mean it's not like a boiler breaking down, I'm sure the job could've waited :(
Yeah that's got to be risky, gas safety checks don't take long, he could be at ten different addresses in one day drastically shortening the odds. Mrs. P would have sent him packing, I mean it's not like a boiler breaking down, I'm sure the job could've waited :(
My housing association gas guys are only doing emergencies like all their staff... Quite rightly.
Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment.. man is a nut.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177
Pierre De Grenoble
24-04-2020, 09:31
Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment.. man is a nut.
Trump is one of the worst pieces of human refuse that was ever conceived. His ma should have swallowed.
walpurgis
24-04-2020, 09:43
Trump is one of the worst pieces of human refuse that was ever conceived. His ma should have swallowed.
Yes, the most powerful man in the world is an idiot. Says a lot for the human race!
Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment.. man is a nut.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177
Yes I read that earlier today and he doesn't say anything of the sort.
He's talking about inoculations, he just doesn't know the correct word for it.
Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment.. man is a nut.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177
"And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting," the president continued."
I will be ok then - my mum always thought the sun shone out of my arse :)
He's far from the most powerful man in the world. Putin, for example, has far more scope in what he can do without checks or scrutiny. Likewise the Chinese bloke whose name I can't recall right now.
Trump's losing his shit.
Tipping point coming soon I think...
Yes I read that earlier today and he doesn't say anything of the sort.
He's talking about inoculations, he just doesn't know the correct word for it.
He does actually.
(Quote)
"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
"So it'd be interesting to check that."
Pointing to his head, Mr Trump went on: "I'm not a doctor. But I'm, like, a person that has a good you-know-what."
When He asked Dr Birx, one of his main scientific advisors about it, She said "Not as a Treatment"
Unfortunately His words matter, and people listen to his.
His failure is Epic, a clear and present danger.
Photo taken recently at one of the "End Lockdown" demonstrations.
Look at this and ask yourself if this is normal.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVrW-RUWkAEHY65?format=jpg&name=large
(Quote)
"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
"So it'd be interesting to check that."
Pointing to his head, Mr Trump went on: "I'm not a doctor. But I'm, like, a person that has a good you-know-what."
I'm not saying he isn't as daft as a brush - but he's clearly not suggesting injecting with disinfectant. He just doesn't know the right words for what he's trying to get across. Yes, he should probably say nothing rather than open his mouth and remove all doubt. But saying nothing doesn't get you re-elected does it?
Can't agree Martin, sorry.
Disinfectant...wow...Trump likes.
Asks, "Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?"
Anyway,
Putting a lighter spin on it: :)
"How To Medical"
https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189
He's seen that if the virus is on a surface then disinfectant can kill it immediately so he is asking if there is an equivalent to that which can be injected into people.
Obviously there isn't but then, dammit, he's a property developer not a doctor (to paraphrase Leonard 'Bones' McCoy).
Sorry but this is another case of the criticisms of Trump being as stupid as Trump.
Pierre De Grenoble
24-04-2020, 11:41
Sorry but this is another case of the criticisms of Trump being a stupid as Trump.
He's not a property developer now though is he? ( or if he still is, he's breaking the constitution... Oooops)
He's supposed to have an army of highly paid advisors telling him what is / aint possible, instead of that he rambles like an unscripted congenital idiot, spewing forth disconnected irrational thoughts in an attempt to sound cultured and intelligent, and throw a few soundbites out to Fox News.
Beobloke
24-04-2020, 11:52
Sorry but this is another case of the criticisms of Trump being as stupid as Trump.
No-one else is that stupid.
Anyway, back in the real world for us mere mortals....
Just been for our weekly food shop. Initially, we thought 'let's see what Asda is like, just for a change', so drove into the car park, then spied the queue going round the length of the store, and thought 'fuck that'. Ok then, 'let's try Sainsbury's' - same result, only worse!!
So, next thought was 'fuck it, we'll just go to Lidl, as we usually do'... Drove there, ZERO queue. Got inside, store was near empty! Fully stocked, though... So got what we needed and were in and out in less than 30 mins. Now home, feet up, no stress - and time for lunch!:cool:
Moral of the story: you can keep yer bloody 'mainstream' supermarkets! For a less stressful, more 'sane' shopping experience, now during the lockdown, go to Lidl or Aldi:exactly:
Marco.
Aldi's my weapon of choice nowadays Marco, there's an Asda nearby it and always a queue round the block.
mate next door said last time he went out, aldi was round store but lidl he just walked into.
Aldi's my weapon of choice nowadays Marco, there's an Asda nearby it and always a queue round the block.
Nice one, dude. That't what we'll be sticking to now, for the foreseeable, as life's too short for that pish:nono:
It's certainly handy at the moment not being slaves to brand names!;)
Marco.
mate next door said last time he went out, aldi was round store but lidl he just walked into.
Yup, timing is often the key. Get there as early as possible is the one!:)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
24-04-2020, 12:31
Anyway, back in the real world for us mere mortals....
Just been for our weekly food shop. Initially, we thought 'let's see what Asda is like, just for a change', so drove into the car park, then spied the queue going round the length of the store, and thought 'fuck that'. Ok then, 'let's try Sainsbury's' - same result, only worse!!
So, next thought was 'fuck it, we'll just go to Lidl, as we usually do'... Drove there, ZERO queue. Got inside, store was near empty! Fully stocked, though... So got what we needed and were in and out in less than 30 mins. Now home, feet up, no stress - and time for lunch!:cool:
Moral of the story: you can keep yer bloody 'mainstream' supermarkets! For a less stressful, more 'sane' shopping experience, now during the lockdown, go to Lidl or Aldi:exactly:
Marco.
Shame you had to waste so much of your day going to different supermarkets before settling on Lidl. I feel much the same way when I go to Lidl, then on to Morrisons for everything I couldn't get at Lidl :(
Went to Morrisons this morning armed with 2 lists (one for us, one for her dad). Queue was at least 100 yards long, but the time between leaving the house and arriving home was just over an hour, including a pleasant ten minutes queuing in the warm sunshine. And I got everything that was on both lists, job done :)
Lol - I'll settle for being 'pleasantly warm in the sunshine', when sat on my arse in the comfort of my own garden, not standing in queues amongst the great unwashed, outside a fooking supermarket!:ner:;)
Btw, the queues I witnessed earlier would've taken much longer than 10 mins to get through.
I'm curious though, what *exactly* is it (name specific products) you can't get in Lidl or Aldi, but which you can get in Morrisons?:)
Marco [life's too short to stand in unnecessary queues].
lactose free milk for a start:ner:
Lol - they sell soya milk, which is lactose free, as Del drinks it!:ner:
Marco.
ghastly stuff.. proper coos milk please:D
Lol, right, so what you should've said is that they don't sell lactose-free COW'S milk!!:ner:
;)
Lactose-free milk, they do sell, just not the type you drink:)
Marco.
anthonyTD
24-04-2020, 13:45
That's how i read it too!
Unfortunetly, there seems to be a trend of folk taking part of what he says, and putting it into a completely diffrent context! One has to wonder about their motives for doing so ?
A...
I'm not saying he isn't as daft as a brush - but he's clearly not suggesting injecting with disinfectant. He just doesn't know the right words for what he's trying to get across. Yes, he should probably say nothing rather than open his mouth and remove all doubt. But saying nothing doesn't get you re-elected does it?
Pigmy Pony
24-04-2020, 14:10
Lol - I'll settle for being 'pleasantly warm in the sunshine', when sat on my arse in the comfort of my own garden, not standing in queues amongst the great unwashed, outside a fooking supermarket!:ner:;)
Btw, the queues I witnessed earlier would've taken much longer than 10 mins to get through.
I'm curious though, what *exactly* is it (name specific products) you can't get in Lidl or Aldi, but which you can get in Morrisons?:)
Marco [life's too short to stand in unnecessary queues].
Oh I can't remember what the items were, and I'm not about to try again just to show you, as you'll only argue your way out of it ("you don't need whipping cream! Just get double cream and whip harder!" Or "well if you're looking for that sort of crap you need to go to Morrisons") :ner: see I know what your answers will be before you do!
On second thoughts, maybe I WILL go to Lidl first next time - it'll be fun to see how closely your reply matches my prediction :D
Oh and I'm not a 'brands slave', most of my purchases were Morrison's own. Example: Baked beans Heinz 55p; Lidl29p (Corale I think they were called); Morrisons £1 for 4. Other bargains are available no doubt. :)
Ste [life's to short to stand around arguing over which supermarket has the biggest willy]
Lol... Whatever keeps you happy, sweety!:D
The main reason we can get the vast majority of our food shopping in Lidl, is because the vast majority of it is fresh produce, and in our experience theirs is as good as that from any other supermarket, sometimes better, and often cheaper.
We don't buy many tins, packets, or any 'convenience' or junk foods/ready meals whatsoever, so therefore don't rely on the brand names who produce them, in terms of a certain make of baked beans, ketchup, etc, being 'our favourite', and so the ONLY one we'll eat...
Plus, the type of products they sell, largely aimed at a German audience (the company after all is German) suits our 'European palate', particularly the very high quality of their cold meats/antipasto items and cheeses - and wine and beer selection, which for comparable quality is often half the price (or considerably less) than the equivalent (if you can find it) from other supermarkets. Lidl also has a great fresh bread section!
The wine thing, in particular however, is a BIG DEAL for us, as we drink a lot of wine, and so can save a FORTUNE buying certain ones from Lidl or Aldi, compared with from other supermarkets, especially as I have the necessary wine knowledge to 'sniff out' some serious bargains, which the uninitiated masses often miss, or are too ignorant/snobbish to consider!;)
Marco.
That's how i read it too!
Unfortunetly, there seems to be a trend of folk taking part of what he says, and putting it into a completely diffrent context! One has to wonder about their motives for doing so ?
A...
One could make the same argument for Trump apologists and excusers who repeatedly try to play down his flaws, gaffes, failures and transgressions. The guy is insane but those who backed him cannot admit to themselves they failed to see what was obvious to the rest of us.
Pigmy Pony
24-04-2020, 14:48
Lol... Whatever keeps you happy, sweety!:D
The main reason we can get the vast majority of our food shopping in Lidl, is because the vast majority of it is fresh produce, and in our experience theirs is as good as that of any other supermarket, sometimes better, and often cheaper.
We don't buy many tins or any 'convenience' or junk foods/ready meals whatsoever, so therefore don't rely on brand names, in terms of a certain make of baked beans being 'our favourite', or whatever.
Plus, the type of stuff they sell, largely aimed at a German audience (the company after all is German) suits our 'European palate', particularly the very high quality of their cold meats/antipasto items and cheeses - and wine and beer selection, which for comparable quality is often half the price (or considerably less) than the equivalent (if you can find it) from other supermarkets.
The wine thing, in particular, is a BIG DEAL to us, as we drink a lot of wine, and can save a FORTUNE buying it there, compared with doing so in other supermarkets, especially as I have the necessary knowledge to 'sniff out' some serious bargains!;)
Marco.
So this would come under my "If that's the sort of cack you buy you should go to Morrisons" prediction :ner:
I can see how their food would better suit a European palate, and I know how you like to spend much of your time putting this stuff together, but we have a more "British" palate, with spuds, cauli, carrots, cabbage, eggs, BAKED BEANS, corn flakes (proper Kelloggs not foreign pale imitations). Our experience of these products at Lidl is that they are not cheaper or better than t'other supermarkets.
Also bought a juicer at Morrisons today, to squeeze lemons etc. Maybe they have them at Lidl, or maybe I would need to wait till Thursday, see what comes in :)
Heinz beans are best, no ifs, buts, maybes....I grew up on a big tin of beans a day.
I can see how their food would better suit a European palate, and I know how you like to spend much of your time putting this stuff together, but we have a more "British" palate, with spuds, cauli, carrots, cabbage, eggs, BAKED BEANS, corn flakes (proper Kelloggs not foreign pale imitations). Our experience of these products at Lidl is that they are not cheaper or better than t'other supermarkets.
In terms of the first bit... Exactly. The big thing is we nearly always cook our food *from scratch, using fresh produce*, as that's how we were brought up!
However, we eat all of the 'British things' you've mentioned, save cornflakes, so I'll give you that, as again that's not really a European thing. For cereals, we'd have muesli. Germans don't really 'do' cornflakes.
Prices must be different then where you are, as I could show you two recent shopping bills, where nothing was purchased other than fresh fruit and veg: one from Sainsbury's, and the other Lidl - and the bill from Lidl was 20% cheaper, and the quality better - and here that's frequently the case!
Also bought a juicer at Morrisons today, to squeeze lemons etc. Maybe they have them at Lidl, or maybe I would need to wait till Thursday, see what comes in :)
Lol, well, check out the famous 'middle isles' in both Lidl and Aldi, and trust me, you'll find ALL sorts of bargains in there, from kitchen gadgets to garden furniture and clothes - all pretty good quality, some exceptional (if it's German made):)
Marco.
Heinz beans are best, no ifs, buts, maybes....I grew up on a big tin of beans a day.
That's cool, but I very rarely eat baked beans, and Del's happy with the ones from Lidl, 'tarted up' with some herbs and tomato puree:)
Marco.
InThe Sticks
24-04-2020, 15:22
I shop (in order)
Waitrose
Morrisons
Lidl
Now, if i could get everything i needed in Lidl, then i’d scrap Morrisons altogether.
One thing i will say is that Lidl’s fresh fruit and veg knocks Morrisons into next week. It’s always very very good and cheap, and also as has been said, their cold meats are top drawer as well. But i’m really not a fan of their copy brands i.e cereals, butter, beans, razor blades etc etc.
Yes, they’re cheap, but i’d rather pay a premium for something that tastes or performs better.
That's cool, but I very rarely eat baked beans, and Del's happy with the ones from Lidl, 'tarted up' with some herbs and tomato puree:)
Marco.
rarely eat em but when i do its usually heinz or cross and blackwell.
I shop (in order)
Waitrose
Morrisons
Lidl
Now, if i could get everything i needed in Lidl, then i’d scrap Morrisons altogether.
One thing i will say is that Lidl’s fresh fruit and veg knocks Morrisons into next week. It’s always very very good and cheap, and also as has been said, their cold meats are top drawer as well. But i’m really not a fan of their copy brands i.e cereals, butter, beans, razor blades etc etc.
Yes, they’re cheap, but i’d rather pay a premium for something that tastes or performs better.
Completely agree, Jon, but we don't buy those from Lidl or Aldi, so it's a non-issue!
Surprised you use Waitrose so much. Yes, *some* of their stuff is worth the price premium and genuinely high-quality, but for me a LOT of it is vastly overpriced pretentious nonsense, designed to 'impress' the snobbish middle-class trendy types, who generally shop there [yourself obviously excluded:D], and who 'get off' on that kind of thing and obtain a 'warm glow' from walking out with a Waitrose bag.
TOTALLY *NOT* our thing!:nono:
...even though affording it is not an issue.
Marco.
Completely agree, Jon, but we don't buy those from Lidl or Aldi, so it's a non-issue!
Surprised you use Waitrose so much. Yes, *some* of their stuff is worth the price premium and genuinely high-quality, but for me a LOT of it is vastly overpriced pretentious nonsense, designed to 'impress' the snobbish middle-class trendy types, who generally shop there [yourself obviously excluded:D], and who 'get off' on that kind of thing and obtain a 'warm glow' from walking out with a Waitrose bag.
TOTALLY *NOT* our thing!:nono:
...even though affording it is not an issue.
Marco.
not as dear as donald russell i bet:D still, they can supply so they get the work from me.
Lol - indeed. It was me who put you onto them (as we'd used them in the past), so I'm glad it's worked out well!:)
Marco.
just put my june order in.. 115 quid :eyebrows:
Pigmy Pony
24-04-2020, 16:28
That's cool, but I very rarely eat baked beans, and Del's happy with the ones from Lidl, 'tarted up' with some herbs and tomato puree:)
Marco.
Why would Del be keeping you away from baked beans?
anthonyTD
24-04-2020, 16:31
Ohh, you don't want to go there! :eek::lol:
Why would Del be keeping you away from baked beans?
anthonyTD
24-04-2020, 16:33
Indeed, but to be fair, it has to be a two way Street! :)
One could make the same argument for Trump apologists and excusers who repeatedly try to play down his flaws, gaffes, failures and transgressions. The guy is insane but those who backed him cannot admit to themselves they failed to see what was obvious to the rest of us.
Ohh, you don't want to go there! :eek::lol:
Lol - TBH, being veggie, her propensity to 'trump' [no pun intended:D] is often greater than mine!
Marco.
anthonyTD
24-04-2020, 16:37
:rofl:
Lol - TBH, being veggie, her propensity to 'trump' [no pun intended:D] is often greater than mine!
Marco.
One could make the same argument for Trump apologists and excusers who repeatedly try to play down his flaws, gaffes, failures and transgressions. The guy is insane but those who backed him cannot admit to themselves they failed to see what was obvious to the rest of us.
The point is he didn't suggest injecting people with disinfectant. To say he did is propagating 'fake news' and lying. The two things that Trump's opponents constantly accuse him of doing. Yes he does lie and he does spread fake news, does that make it okay for his opponents to do the same? Aside from being hypocritical it just drags the whole debate down to the bottom and normalises such behaviour.
InThe Sticks
24-04-2020, 18:49
Surprised you use Waitrose so much. Yes, *some* of their stuff is worth the price premium and genuinely high-quality, but for me a LOT of it is vastly overpriced pretentious nonsense, designed to 'impress' the snobbish middle-class trendy types, who generally shop there [yourself obviously excluded:D], and who 'get off' on that kind of thing and obtain a 'warm glow' from walking out with a Waitrose bag.
Marco.
I shop there because the “premium” i pay contributes to an immaculately clean and well presented store, great and helpful staff and products that i know they’ll have in stock, i.e fresh galangal, lemongrass, lime leaves and Thai basil to mention a few, and the meat/fish counter is to die for.
I went in a short while ago and couldn’t find an item my mother wanted and the staff member not only walked me to the aisle where it was but picked it up and popped it in my basket. Its the little things that matter, and if i’m paying top dollar then thats the service i want and get from Waitrose. Try doing that in Lidl or Aldi, and certainly not in Morrisons. The best you’d get in there would be grunt and a random waving of arms in the general direction of the product.
Good service matters to me, a lot!
I’ve spent the majority of 30+ years working for Mercedes/Audi and a few others either in car sales, as a service advisor and now as a technician/MOT tester and one thing rings true through those years is that people will buy a premium product because they know the after sales service will be (hopefully) good. It’s why i use John Lewis for most electrical stuff i buy, which just so happens to be next door to my local Waitrose.
Basically i go to one location, i buy some nice shit and if anything goes wrong i know i’ll be looked after, It’s that simple.
As for your “designed to impress the snobbish middle-class trendy types” comments about people who use Waitrose, i can only see normal people doing their shopping the same as i would anywhere else. And as for the “Waitrose bag warm glow” you’re not actually being serious are you? Like really, you think thats a thing?
If carrier bag envy is a thing, then the world truly has gone mad, and if i'm honest so have you for mentioning such a ridiculous thing.
Unbelievable. What a knob head.
If I had a waitrose near me I may well shop there too as I like good products and good service. I used to travel to Falkirk to m&s.
I'm not a snob tho, and it's not for the name as such but for the quality that Can go with it.
Lidl/Aldi do lots of good stuff but much of it is not what I'm looking for. It's not worth my while going there for the few things I am wanting if I can get them where I'm getting the rest of my stuff.
Not to say I don't go to both but not so often.
Way things are going I may never be in a shop this year
Unbelievable. What a knob head.
Aimed at Trump by the way! :lol:
walpurgis
24-04-2020, 19:01
And as for the “Waitrose bag warm glow” you’re not actually being serious are you?.
Heaven forbid. I carry a Harrods bag! :)
Pigmy Pony
24-04-2020, 19:12
I have an Ann Summers "bag for life" :)
Mostly use cloth bags. Dunno what's on em tbh
Heaven forbid. I carry a Harrods bag! :)
Yeah I got one of dem... fabulous arnt they !
Pierre De Grenoble
24-04-2020, 19:25
I've got a Butlins one... it's cool like you can't believe.... :sofa:
I've got a Butlins one... it's cool like you can't believe.... :sofa:
Having been with the family to Butlin’s Bognor Regis about 15 times in the last 10 years I will agree with you!
Joking aside, having a accepted that our May “trip of a lifetime” to Florida isn’t going to happen the kids said “does that mean we can go to Butlin’s in October?” :D
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
walpurgis
24-04-2020, 19:42
Dunno about Butlins, but I need a break down in the West Country. I reckon my chances this year are slim.
Pierre De Grenoble
24-04-2020, 19:43
Having been with the family to Butlin’s Bognor Regis about 15 times in the last 10 years I will agree with you!
Joking aside, having a accepted that our May “trip of a lifetime” to Florida isn’t going to happen the kids said “does that mean we can go to Butlin’s in October?” :D
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
:respect: mines a souvie from the yearly rock music weekend... :D
southall-1998_mk2
24-04-2020, 19:45
Dunno about Butlins, but I need a break down in the West Country. I reckon my chances this year are slim.
Buy a virtual reality headset, and pretend you're in Cornwall :D
S.
Hi Jon,
I shop there because the “premium” i pay contributes to an immaculately clean and well presented store, great and helpful staff and products that i know they’ll have in stock, i.e fresh galangal, lemongrass, lime leaves and Thai basil to mention a few, and the meat/fish counter is to die for.
In terms of the first bit, I already get all that here in Aldi or Lidl. The layout or decor may not be fancy, but it's invariably clean and well-presented, given the store's 'budget' status. I want to pay for the quality of the food and drink, not the decor, and receive value for money. Plus, here in Wales, the staff must be more polite and better trained than in stores near you, as I've always had great service from staff at my local Lidl or Aldi, and I could cite valid examples of that.
In terms of the second bit, I get all that from the Thai shop in Wrexham, cheaper and better [read as more authentic]!:ner:;) Or if not, from the asian stores we frequent. The only "premium" I'm interested in paying for is one that reflects SOLELY on the quality of the store's produce and products - and in that respect Waitrose doesn't always deliver. There are a number of fresh-food products, for example, from Lidl's Deluxe range which, in terms of quality, would embarrass supposed [much more expensive] equivalents from Waitrose!
I went in a short while ago and couldn’t find an item my mother wanted and the staff member not only walked me to the aisle where it was but picked it up and popped it in my basket. Its the little things that matter, and if i’m paying top dollar then thats the service i want and get from Waitrose. Try doing that in Lidl or Aldi, and certainly not in Morrisons. The best you’d get in there would be grunt and a random waving of arms in the general direction of the product.
Good service matters to me, a lot!
And me. However, our respective experiences in Lidl or Aldi clearly differ rather drastically. You shouldn't have to pay extra for good service. That should come naturally if the right people are employed and they're trained and looked after properly, essentially by providing them with a decent wage and job satisfaction. I'm very familiar with this subject, as I used to be in retail management.
I’ve spent the majority of 30+ years working for Mercedes/Audi and a few others either in car sales, as a service advisor and now as a technician/MOT tester and one thing rings true through those years is that people will buy a premium product because they know the after sales service will be (hopefully) good. It’s why i use John Lewis for most electrical stuff i buy, which just so happens to be next door to my local Waitrose.
Basically i go to one location, i buy some nice shit and if anything goes wrong i know i’ll be looked after, It’s that simple.
That's cool, and your choice, but there are other ways of achieving the same result by spending less. I'm sorry, I just don't buy the concept [no pun intended] that the only way to get good service or own a high-quality product is to pay through the nose for it.
From the way you're talking, it sounds like you'd advocate taking your car to be serviced solely at the dealership, rather than at an independent garage. Now, owning a Mercedes, that would cost me a LOT more money than it does employing the services of my tried and trusted (over years) mechanic [now friend], whom I can assure you looks after my car (and me) every bit as good [in reality MUCH better] than any Mercedes dealership would, and at a fraction of the cost!:)
As for your “designed to impress the snobbish middle-class trendy types” comments about people who use Waitrose, i can only see normal people doing their shopping the same as i would anywhere else. And as for the “Waitrose bag warm glow” you’re not actually being serious are you? Like really, you think thats a thing?
If carrier bag envy is a thing, then the world truly has gone mad, and if i'm honest so have you for mentioning such a ridiculous thing.
I don't *think* that's a thing; I KNOW it's a thing, as I've heard folk [old neighbours of mine, for one] talking about it! Typical 'keeping up with the Jones'/aspiring middle-class types I utterly abhor, and they're certainly not uncommon.
You don't think that folk are seduced by 'desirable badges' or snob value? Come on, look at the hi-fi industry! Why does a Linn amplifier cost MANY times the price of one, just as good, made by a small, unknown specialist manufacturer who *really* knows his shit? Because there's a 'premium' attached to ownership of the Linn badge!!
It's EXACTLY the same principle with products from Waitrose, and the 'carrier-bag snobs', as ridiculous and risible as they are, are simply a part of that. As for "normal people" doing their shopping, well of course they look "normal". What would you expect - for them to have two heads or wear a badge written with: 'I'm a snobbish middle-class trendy type'?:D
However, I can assure you that the 'quinoa and mung bean set' are alive and kicking as regular shoppers at Waitrose, and also to a lesser extent, M&S...
Don't get me wrong, people can shop where the hell they like and for whatever reason, and good luck to them, plus I don't consider you as being one of the aforementioned pretentious 'trendy types'. However, you and I, Jon, have rather differing views on where and how to experience/own quality items, and receive excellent levels of customer service - and for me, it's simply not mandatory to have to throw money at it.
Marco.
The point is he didn't suggest injecting people with disinfectant. To say he did is propagating 'fake news' and lying. The two things that Trump's opponents constantly accuse him of doing. Yes he does lie and he does spread fake news, does that make it okay for his opponents to do the same? Aside from being hypocritical it just drags the whole debate down to the bottom and normalises such behaviour.
Don’t normally engage as much on this kinda stuff,
But sorry Martin, vast majority of commentary around the Globe says he did.
Also, what you said there (In bold) goes beyond a disagreement of opinion...
Calling you out on that as bullshit. (Nowt personal! )
As more people need to do quite frankly. (Trump, not you!)
I reckon this is the tipping point.
Quite the reaction from around the world on this - all WTF did he just say?
Some things are just dangerous, wrong and need called out.
Suppose that’s an “agenda”, and if it is there’s condemnation around the world for him suggesting injecting detergent (And UV light) into the body it’s either
a lot of fake news...or is there something there worth calling out.
His attempted cleanup the next day saying he was being sarcastic towards reporters to see what they would do...
Direct quote: “I asked a question about detergent on the inside but...”
Besides the press conference and everything that was said being on video for all to see!
Also,
The Whitehouse edited the Transcript of the Briefing, to change what the Medical expert said in response to Trumps medical diagnoses as a way to tackle Covid.
Just so that it match the narrative ofwhat Trump was saying.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/24/corrected-white-house-transcript-birx-said-light-not-virus-treatment/3018422001/
All being done in plain sight...
Must be so hard being a world leader mid pandemic with 50,000 dead and you just want to do your stand up routine.
Tough room.
(That defence might work if no-one on the planet knew what Sarcasm was)
Detergent manufacturers are putting out disclaimers, guess they never got the memo.
From the manufacturer of Lysol: “As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route)”
Given what’s going on in the world, it’s gonna get worse.
I have an Ann Summers "bag for life" :)
...which I have on good authority Anita pops over your head, pre coital-relations. Well with a face like yours, I guess you can't blame her!:D
I also believe she's considering double-bagging next time, 'just to be sure'.
Marco.
Went to Waitrose in Upminster once, the only thing I recall about the experience was my other half's grandsons fencing with the salami, found it quite amusing :D
InThe Sticks
24-04-2020, 21:25
From the way you're talking, it sounds like you'd advocate taking your car to be serviced solely at the dealership, rather than at an independent garage. Now, owning a Mercedes, that would cost me a LOT more money than it does employing the services of my tried and trusted (over years) mechanic [now friend], whom I can assure you looks after my car (and me) every bit as good [in reality MUCH better] than any Mercedes dealership would, and at a fraction of the cost!:)
Marco.
How would you know if you've never been to one?
Anyhoo..
Hell no, not at all, some of the prices I’ve seen charged are beyond eye watering. I’ve seen invoices that would buy your car, my car and one of my bikes put together. I am in full in support of local garages with decent prices. One of my best best friends owns one, but knows his limits.
Marco, I’ve no doubt he looks after your car exceptionally well, but in reality your car (and mine) employ very very old tech (like windows 95) and tbh pretty much anyone could maintain them using the internet, a few forums and some Halfords spanners.
Now, fast forward to a modern car and all the tech they involve and have more ECU’s than we have fingers and toes X 10 then take it to an independent with a fault and see where it gets you. I’ve seen so many cars come in with every other component replaced bar the one that actually need replacing due to cheap and crappy diagnostic equipment or lack of knowledge. If they came to us first, the fault fault would have been fixed fast and more cost friendly.
Dunno why but injector faults seem to be to new thing with them over fueling and blowing out the bottom ends these days after independents have fitted them without properly coding them in.
We have a couple of specialists and auction sites near us that provide us with a continual stream of work that they can’t diagnose. Try finding an independent with pockets deep enough to buy the Xentry equipment we use plus the cost of the training etc to diagnose those faults.
That was hypothetical, you won’t.
Lets take Grants CH-R for example (a hybrid), try taking that to anything other than a main dealer with say a powertrain fault and see them turn you away because they can’t work on it.
Like it or not, its the future.
I know that main dealers get a fuck ton of stick for their prices, but its only fair to say that the training costs involved and the equipment don’t come for free.
Just wait to see how bad it gets when we go full electric.
How would you know if you've never been to one?
Anyhoo..
Wot - I've never had my car serviced at a Mercedes dealership? Course I have... And the experience wasn't good, either for the car or my pocket!
Marco, I’ve no doubt he looks after your car exceptionally well, but in reality your car (and mine) employ very very old tech (like windows 95) and tbh pretty much anyone could maintain them using the internet, a few forums and some Halfords spanners.
I agree, in terms of simply maintaining them, but I'm not just talking about that; I'm talking about IMPROVING almost every aspect of their performance, and making the car fundamentally no-brainer BETTER than it was when it left the factory.
That's *exactly* what Kev's achieved with the Brabster, especially in terms of remapping the engine, as he writes software for NASCAR. Trust me, this guy is the *real deal*, and way better than the average glorified 'grease monkey' you'll usually find at dealerships!
Now, fast forward to a modern car and all the tech they involve and have more ECU’s than we have fingers and toes X 10 then take it to an independent with a fault and see where it gets you. I’ve seen so many cars come in with every other component replaced bar the one that actually need replacing due to cheap and crappy diagnostic equipment or lack of knowledge. If they came to us first, the fault fault would have been fixed fast and more cost friendly.
Dunno why but injector faults seem to be to new thing with them over fueling and blowing out the bottom ends these days after independents have fitted them without properly coding them in.
Well, firstly, that's why I wouldn't own a brand new car if you paid me. Any car I own from now on, up until I'm too old to drive, will be very carefully chosen from a certain era, and will DEFINITELY NOT be electric!!
Secondly, I'm in no position to doubt what you say about technology and what's needed to maintain or fix new cars controlled by it. Indeed, I agree with much of what you've said on that.
However, I know Kev very well and have often hung around his place for hours, whilst getting work done on my car, and watched what goes on and the type of clientele he has/cars he gets to work with. And can tell you it's from anything that's genuinely vintage, to brand new cars, and he *always* manages to fix problems, even if in the end he has to seek the assistance of one of his many contacts, who have access to the necessary equipment he needs to resolve the issue - and all done at significantly reduced cost, compared with a dealership.
Essentially, if Kev can't fix something (and trust me, that's RARE) he'll always be able to call in a favour and ask 'a man who can'! And that's the sort of guy I like dealing with:)
I know that main dealers get a fuck ton of stick for their prices, but its only fair to say that the training costs involved and the equipment don’t come for free.
It wouldn't be so bad if the high prices charged *automatically* resulted in a superior standard of work carried out, but unfortunately that's NOT the reality. Jeez, they put a 17-year old apprentice on my car once, when I used the Merc dealership in Chester, for a full service, and the car came back running like bag of spanners! No idea what he'd done, but I was refunded for most of the bill and have never been back since.
And one of my best mates, who lives in Scotland and drives exclusively BMWs, was once quoted £120 by Harry Fairbairn (his nearest BMW dealership), to fit some bulbs. I can't remember exactly what they were, but which his local independent garage later did for £30!! So sorry, you can see why I'm not a big fan of dealerships.
Just because you're not short of a few bob is no reason to be a fool;)
Marco.
The point is he didn't suggest injecting people with disinfectant. To say he did is propagating 'fake news' and lying. The two things that Trump's opponents constantly accuse him of doing. Yes he does lie and he does spread fake news, does that make it okay for his opponents to do the same? Aside from being hypocritical it just drags the whole debate down to the bottom and normalises such behaviour.
Err....
Donald Trump: (29:46)
“A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right? And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful. Steve, please.”
You may also wish to consider the growing evidence that Trump has been fed with info about the bleach treatment that was already being denounced by health experts:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Defending the indefensible and your straws are running out.
Err....
Donald Trump: (29:46)
“A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right? And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful. Steve, please.”
You may also wish to consider the growing evidence that Trump has been fed with info about the bleach treatment that was already being denounced by health experts:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Defending the indefensible and your straws are running out.
The bit you have highlighted - 'something like that' - is the key to understanding what he is trying to say. He does not say 'inject people with disinfectant' he is saying 'Is there not something we can inject people with that would have the same effect as disinfectant does'. Sorry but if you can't -or won't - see that then there's no reasoning with you.
I'm not defending Trump, pretty poor that you would think that. I'm defending a more intelligent level of political discussion, something sadly lacking now on both sides - The reason Trump is President in the first place and will probably be re-elected is because his opponents need to up their game from the childish soundbites and name-calling. It's not going to change Trump supporters' minds about Trump - quite the opposite in fact. And it turns off those of us with more considered and educated viewpoints too.
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 07:59
However, I can assure you that the 'quinoa and mung bean set' are alive and kicking as regular shoppers at Waitrose, and also to a lesser extent, M&S...
Marco.
Hey, don't knock it till you've tried it! We're having quinoa and mung beans on toast for dinner today :)
walpurgis
25-04-2020, 08:03
I'm keeping it traditional today. Chicken nuggets, spaghetti hoops and instant mash! :lol:
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 08:04
...which I have on good authority Anita pops over your head, pre coital-relations. Well with a face like yours, I guess you can't blame her!:D
I also believe she's considering double-bagging next time, 'just to be sure'.
Marco.
Only when using the Lidl bags, those things are crap :(
apparently our local hospital is 2/3 empty..makes you wonder
hifi_dave
25-04-2020, 09:07
I think it would be good for the Nation's health, if certain Hospitals were kept just for Corona Virus cases, leaving the others to carry on as normal. As it is, huge backlogs are building up and people are not seeking help when they need it for fear of contacting the virus.
I have a Hospital appointment, week after next but I'm not going because I don't want to increase my chances of catching the disease.
Hey, don't knock it till you've tried it! We're having quinoa and mung beans on toast for dinner today :)
Aye, defo, undoubtedly two staples of any Lancashire lad's diet:thumbsup:
Are you having them as usual with oven chips?
Marco.
I think it would be good for the Nation's health, if certain Hospitals were kept just for Corona Virus cases, leaving the others to carry on as normal. As it is, huge backlogs are building up and people are not seeking help when they need it for fear of contacting the virus.
I have a Hospital appointment, week after next but I'm not going because I don't want to increase my chances of catching the disease.
I think it will move towards that Dave. The hospital cases seem to be coming down ever so slightly... so they may do that and let the hospitals get back to nearer normal. whether anyone will risk it tho for a while is debatable
I'm keeping it traditional today. Chicken nuggets, spaghetti hoops and instant mash! :lol:
Excellent, as long as you remember to cook the spaghetti 'al dente'.
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 09:41
Aye, defo, undoubtedly two staples of any Lancashire lad's diet:thumbsup:
Are you having them as usual with oven chips?
Marco.
Absolutely not, we have a deep-fat fryer - we're not chavs :nono:
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 09:46
I think it would be good for the Nation's health, if certain Hospitals were kept just for Corona Virus cases, leaving the others to carry on as normal. As it is, huge backlogs are building up and people are not seeking help when they need it for fear of contacting the virus.
I have a Hospital appointment, week after next but I'm not going because I don't want to increase my chances of catching the disease.
Or perhaps having part of the hospitals cordoned off and exclusively for CV patients. I'm sure these measures will have all been considered. Maybe it's a question of patient numbers, which may change as the disease progresses or declines.
anthonyTD
25-04-2020, 10:01
:)
The bit you have highlighted - 'something like that' - is the key to understanding what he is trying to say. He does not say 'inject people with disinfectant' he is saying 'Is there not something we can inject people with that would have the same effect as disinfectant does'. Sorry but if you can't -or won't - see that then there's no reasoning with you.
I'm not defending Trump, pretty poor that you would think that. I'm defending a more intelligent level of political discussion, something sadly lacking now on both sides - The reason Trump is President in the first place and will probably be re-elected is because his opponents need to up their game from the childish soundbites and name-calling. It's not going to change Trump supporters' minds about Trump - quite the opposite in fact. And it turns off those of us with more considered and educated viewpoints too.
The reason Trump is President in the first place and will probably be re-elected is because his opponents need to up their game from the childish soundbites and name-calling.
And also because, despite his MANY failings [I'm far from a big fan of him either], he was still a better choice than the truly EVIL ENTITY that is Hilary Clinton... Trust me, if she'd been elected instead and put into power, we'd be worrying about and discussing things far scarier than injecting folk with disinfectant!:eek:
Plus, Trump is, deep down, anti-establishment (despite what's portrayed otherwise by those with vested interests), and as such is successfully thwarting/keeping in check the, shall we say, 'dubious ambitions' of the global elite, unlike many who've gone before him in that position, and who gleefully facilitated those 'ambitions', with horrendous results...
And THAT alone is the reason why, despite him being a brainless misogynistic buffoon <or insert your preferred description here> Trump is more GOOD than bad for the overall health of humanity, and in protecting the FREEDOM, which not only Americans enjoy and consider as central to their existence, but also us here in the UK.
Furthermore, I doubt that vermin/scum, such as Epstein, would've been taken to task for his heinous crimes, if it weren't for Trump.... In that respect, I truly hope that Prince Andrew, who was in it up to his neck too, eventually gets his comeuppance, along with others guilty of the same, or who've covered up the corrupt, depraved and insidious sickness that runs deep within the Royal Family - and has done for centuries!
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
25-04-2020, 10:09
This was a news item elsewhere days ago. That article said that approx 15000 peeps a day were flying into the UK, none are being checked.
THe obvious reason behind the govenment speak is that they do dot have the capacity / ability to test / track / trace these arrivals. sad & pathetic IMHO
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/no-covid-19-screening-of-passengers-arriving-in-the-uk-for-now/ar-BB139ZMC?ocid=spartanntp
hifi_dave
25-04-2020, 10:26
Or perhaps having part of the hospitals cordoned off and exclusively for CV patients. I'm sure these measures will have all been considered. Maybe it's a question of patient numbers, which may change as the disease progresses or declines.
I believe that is already done with an entrance reserved for virus patients etc but still people catch it in Hospital. Early on in this Pandemic, the experts on the TV were saying that Hospital is the safest place to be but it's not so.
hifi_dave
25-04-2020, 10:30
This was a news item elsewhere days ago. That article said that approx 15000 peeps a day were flying into the UK, none are being checked.
THe obvious reason behind the govenment speak is that they do dot have the capacity / ability to test / track / trace these arrivals. sad & pathetic IMHO
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/no-covid-19-screening-of-passengers-arriving-in-the-uk-for-now/ar-BB139ZMC?ocid=spartanntp
Saw that the other day. 15000 people flying in from across the World - New York, Spain, Italy, even China with no checks at all. Whilst other countries have shut down immigration completely, we are allowing thousands/day to enter unchecked.
The other thing which wound me up was thousands of Romanian workers flown and bussed into east Anglia to pick the harvest. None are checked and they sleep in pretty naff accommodation - 4 to a caravan etc.
I believe that is already done with an entrance reserved for virus patients etc but still people catch it in Hospital. Early on in this Pandemic, the experts on the TV were saying that Hospital is the safest place to be but it's not so.
care homes are the most dangerous... i aint going into one no matter what, if i have any say in matter
hifi_dave
25-04-2020, 11:11
care homes are the most dangerous... i aint going into one no matter what, if i have any say in matter
Care homes are a major concern. How so many die is scandalous and the poor staff are having to do Nurses' work without proper protection.
You needn't worry, you're just a lad..:wheniwasaboy:
care homes are the most dangerous... i aint going into one no matter what, if i have any say in matter
Worry not, you'll be coming down to live with us. It's all sorted:thumbsup:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 12:08
Worry not, you'll be coming down to live with us. It's all sorted:thumbsup:
Marco.
That would be nice Grant, but you'll have to learn to like soya milk :spew:
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 12:13
care homes are the most dangerous... i aint going into one no matter what, if i have any say in matter
Ex-wife's mum, who is in a care home with Alzheimer's, got the Coronavirus. Luckily she bounced back quickly, especially as she's nearly ninety :) So now she's back at the care home, and probably the envy of the other residents.
had my walk down the ramp and back :lol: warmer behind house as its sheltered from wind... quite pleasant
That would be nice Grant, but you'll have to learn to like soya milk :spew:
he just wants someone to whip;)
That would be nice Grant, but you'll have to learn to like soya milk...
Erm, not exactly... It would be more 'freshly squeezed':
https://youtu.be/AOfI48IWESo
Marco.
Ex-wife's mum, who is in a care home with Alzheimer's, got the Coronavirus. Luckily she bounced back quickly, especially as she's nearly ninety :) So now she's back at the care home, and probably the envy of the other residents.
i'd top myself first... ive seen what they are like
shudder , or is it udder
Wot - I thought you loved creamy 'Gold Top'?:D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
25-04-2020, 12:31
i'd top myself first... ive seen what they are like
I feel the same, but really it probably wouldn't be necessary - plenty of home help for "stubborn buggers" (I hope), and independence aids. Anyway, it sounds like you have some community spirit going on where you live :)
Wot - I thought you loved the creamy 'Gold Top'?:D
Marco.
na, not really.. not a milky person really :D
I feel the same, but really it probably wouldn't be necessary - plenty of home help for "stubborn buggers" (I hope), and independence aids. Anyway, it sounds like you have some community spirit going on where you live :)
aye a bit, but will it last? Im just gonna see where this all leads for a few months yet. See if I can get out again even just in car etc
Pierre De Grenoble
25-04-2020, 12:48
i'd top myself first... ive seen what they are like
Me mother in law died young (64) in a home with Alzheimer's.. I've often thought that IMHO its one of the few valid reasons to commit suicide... except of course you'd forget to do it..
The big problem is that in general I don't believe that Brits look after their old as well as some other nations do, and often just put their elderly parents into care homes as soon as they become 'too much of a burden', thus preventing their (selfish) offspring from 'enjoying' their lives. Drats, how 'inconvenient' of them, eh?:doh:
As an Italian, that rather selfish, uncaring attitude is a complete anathema, and utterly alien to my culture. The Asian community, however, look after their elderly with even more dedication, and for me represent the standard we should all aspire to.
Italians are brought up to look after their parents in their old age, thus replaying them for looking after them when they were young - and that's precisely what I've done up until now, and will do when my dad is no longer able to look after himself, as indeed Del did with her parents, nursing her dad through dementia, dealing with his incontinence issues, and all sorts, until he died, and caring for her mum suffering from breast cancer and finally terminal cancer from a brain tumour, all whilst continuing to hold down a full-time job!
Sadly however, the self-entitled 'I WANT'/'I DESERVE', 'me, me, ME' society, which we live in now, means that many of our elderly will die alone and brokenhearted in some soulless care home, and it's an utter disgrace:(
Marco.
Not so much now although they used to... My mum looked after her mum at our house for years when she was on her own.. Just not so common now, and our houses are often not big enough. most have maybe just 2 bedrooms, so if there are kids its not really suitable
Pierre De Grenoble
25-04-2020, 13:17
Probably ( I seriously hope so ) "fake news" gawd help the world if it isn't
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/revealed-leader-of-group-peddling-bleach-as-coronavirus-cure-wrote-to-trump-this-week/ar-BB13bg05?ocid=spartanntp
Not so much now although they used to... My mum looked after her mum at our house for years when she was on her own.. Just not so common now, and our houses are often not big enough. most have maybe just 2 bedrooms, so if there are kids its not really suitable
Doesn't stop the Chinese, Grant, from housing their elderly, and themselves and their kids, in 'homes' not much bigger than your garden... Don't make excuses, mate. The FACT is, *if* you truly CARE, you'll always find a way!
We need to get BACK to BASICS, and start prioritising what *really* matters in life [the health and happiness of our friends & family], rather than simply pandering to our selfish material and financial desires, and my hope is that once we get through this pandemic, that might happen, and families will become closer/more loving, and more willing to help each other than they were beforehand.
Marco.
The big problem is that Brits simply don't look after their old, the same as other nations do elsewhere in the world, and just shove their elderly parents into care homes as soon as they become 'too much of a burden', thus preventing their (selfish) offspring from 'enjoying' their lives. Drats, how 'inconvenient' of them, eh?:doh:
.
This isn't true. But hey don't let an opportunity to knock the British go by.
They have care homes in Italy, France, Germany etc, so how does that work then? Are they all standing empty?
Clearly not as there are 200,000 people in care homes in Italy alone.
Of course. Italians aren't perfect either, but I'm talking about on average, and also relating my personal experiences, having watched how things often happen here, among people I know. In that respect, for me there's little doubt that, on average, Brits as a nation, don't tend to look after their elderly as well as other nations do - certainly in comparison with the Asian community.
Marco.
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