Johns Hopkins Medical Centre - World Coronavirus infection Map by Country. [Archive] - Page 29

Marco

25-03-2021, 13:05

Guy..The article says, could not would and it may be up to the publican to choose what he/she wants to do...

Indeed, and let's hope that's the case, as I suspect that many publicans, who are also libertarians, whilst wanting to do what they can to protect themselves, staff and customers, will simply view the use of vaccine certificates as an affront to people's civil liberties/human rights, so will choose not to ask for them.

I certainly would, if I were a publican, as principles would come before profits!

Many people can't have a vaccine for one reason and/or another. << these individuals and the people who don't want vaccinated...

Allow me to finish that for you....

>>...shouldn't be unfairly discriminated against when there's currently no *conclusive* proof that vaccination provides full immunity from Covid, or crucially, prevents transmission of the virus to others<<.

Showing recent proof of a negative test actually makes more sense (although still discriminatory), but that should also apply to those who've been vaccinated, as it's possible some may still test positive (i.e. be carriers, although show no symptoms).

And wouldn't it both be interesting, and rather enlightening [although unfortunately not in a good way], if that were the case...?

This is just the start of things to come, because more people have had the vaccine, than not, So..Anyone in this type of business, are going to want to protect these individuals in the majority, who will be their customers...Come in you are welcome..Unfortunately, It's coming and I would guess for the mean time, it's going to be part of the new normal...life's a bitch..

I don't doubt it, but ultimately it's up to US, and whether or not we just sit back and take it.

Governments have introduced things before, which were fundamentally wrong, and that ultimately were usurped by people power, and it will be the same with this. If vaccine certificates become a reality, and are used in the way described, I predict mass protests and utter chaos in our towns and cities, as many will be vehemently opposed to them.

Therefore, ultimately, WE decide what becomes the 'new normal', not the government, as there are far more of us than them!!

In any case, if this does go ahead, it'll highlight how much of a 'libertarian' BJ-boy truly is, which he purports to be, and instead show him up once again as a liar and scumbag, becoming even more of a hate figure than he already is in the eyes of many people - and the decision would also ensure that the Tories went down in history as being responsible for creating the beginning of the end of our free society!

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 13:06

That's not true. There was a case some years back that set precedent, a boarding house that refused to allow a booking from a gay couple.

So what's your view mate, on the proposed 'vaccine certificates' - justified or unjust? If I remember correctly, you said it wouldn't happen.

Marco.

mad-moon

25-03-2021, 13:32

That's not true. There was a case some years back that set precedent, a boarding house that refused to allow a booking from a gay couple.

what...is not true??

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/05/18/Legal-Q-A-refusing-entry-and-police-on-the-premises

guy

25-03-2021, 14:54

Guy..The article says, could not would and it may be up to the publican to choose what he/she wants to do...

I'd like to also add this..Any premises has the lawful right to refuse entry to anyone, they do not need a reason ...

That's why I started "It is being suggested that we may " :)

Macca

25-03-2021, 15:54

So what's your view mate, on the proposed 'vaccine certificates' - justified or unjust? If I remember correctly, you said it wouldn't happen.

Marco.

It's still my opinion that it won't happen.

Macca

25-03-2021, 16:00

what...is not true??

https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2018/05/18/Legal-Q-A-refusing-entry-and-police-on-the-premises

The first line from your link describes the situations where you cannot refuse entry.

if you did refuse entry and someone complained that is was due to one of those reasons then you would have to give a valid reason why you refused entry or face prosecution.

So your statement that 'You don't have to give a reason' isn't correct and hasn't been since the Race Relations Act 1976.

Marco

25-03-2021, 17:22

It's still my opinion that it won't happen.

Really? It seems a virtual certainly to me... Why would BJ even be discussing it, then?:hmm:

Ok, I fancy losing another bet!:D So £100 to our charity of choice, whoever loses?

Oh, and you didn't answer my question: do you think any introduction of such certificates would be justified or unjust?:)

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 17:26

That's why I started "It is being suggested that we may " :)

So would it still be 'fine by you' if such an abomination to our civil liberties were introduced?

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 17:27

It is being suggested that we may need a Covid vaccination certificate/"passport" to go to the pub
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56517486

Fine by me, but where/how do I get one?
(I guess my local would accept my appointment confirmation email, although that doesn't confirm that I actually turned up and had it)

The pubs have had about 15 years of adapting to the smoking ban by providing smoking shelters outside. Perhaps these could be re-branded "non-vaccinated shelters"? I'm sure it would be fine for the approaching summer months. Until we get some crap weather and the non-smoking unjabbed are getting piss wet through. And I'll be saying "Now you know what it feels like to be segregated in the interest of public health":ner:

Just kidding, I think the idea is unworkable and unfair. Because us smokers aren't that mardy.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 17:36

It was mooted that it may be up to individual publicans what they do, so if introduced I'll be drinking in pubs that say a huge FUCK OFF TO VACCINE CERTIFICATES!!! :steam::finger:

Marco.

Well you really wouldn't have a choice would you :) Can't see this happening anyway. Probably something mooted, which the media have put legs onto for the benefit of the easily outraged.

mad-moon

25-03-2021, 17:43

The first line from your link describes the situations where you cannot refuse entry.

if you did refuse entry and someone complained that is was due to one of those reasons then you would have to give a valid reason why you refused entry or face prosecution.

So your statement that 'You don't have to give a reason' isn't correct and hasn't been since the Race Relations Act 1976.

Only in those circumstances...If you turn up somewhere and expect to get in...they can refuse you entry just by looking you up and down...sorry sir, you can't come in...it is their lawful right....they reserve the right to refuse entry or service to whom ever they see fit...I don't like the look of you sir/madame and you are not coming in..it isn't a god given right that you can enter....and what has race got to do with it...or sexual orientation..for that matter... If you've let them know you are homosexual and they refuse you entry and are refused entry on those grounds, or they state, you're not coming in because you are black.. you will have a case hands down and it still doesn't mean you are going to get in..(but you state the obvious on this point)..but if you turn up there wearing a million pound suit..in a ferrari looking respectable ......don't think it's your legal right to enter.....they do not have to let you in...and they don't need a reason

Marco

25-03-2021, 17:59

Well you really wouldn't have a choice would you :) Can't see this happening anyway. Probably something mooted, which the media have put legs onto for the benefit of the easily outraged.

Indeed, although I might if I had proof of a recent negative test. Just stating a point, though, as one of the "easily outraged"!;)

I'm afraid anything that unjustly impinges on my human rights/civil liberties makes my blood boil. Protecting or fighting for one's freedom (in a supposedly free country) should be of primary importance to everyone who lives there!

Anyway, I sincerely hope you're right that it won't be happening. I would dearly love to be proved wrong, but I can see it being introduced as part of their plans for the reopening of pubs in May.

Although, if done, it might just be an English thing, as I haven't heard Mark Drakeford propose such pish for Wales!

Marco.

mad-moon

25-03-2021, 18:02

Indeed, although I might if I had proof of a recent negative test. Just stating a point, though, as one of the "easily outraged"!;)

I'm afraid anything that unjustly impinges on my human rights/civil liberties makes my blood boil. Protecting or fighting for one's freedom (in a supposedly free country) should be of primary importance to everyone who lives there!

Anyway, I sincerely hope you're right that it won't be happening. I would dearly love to be proved wrong, but I can see it being introduced as part of their plans for the reopening of pubs in May.

Although, if done, it might just be an English thing, as I haven't heard Mark Drakeford propose such pish for Wales!

Marco.

They'd just take one look at you and tell you...Sorry sir...you can't come in..under any circumstances...Your lass can come in...but you can't...:lol:

Marco

25-03-2021, 18:16

Aye, you're not wrong!:D

She's a touch less threatening and 'easier on the eye' than me;)

Marco.

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 18:18

Although, if done, it might just be an English thing, as I haven't heard Mark Drakeford propose such pish for Wales!

Marco.
The same Drakeford that's sadly keeping the Welsh in masks until the end of the year?
That said, the Covid laws here have been extended until September, so who knows what'll happen.

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 18:19

They'd just take one look at you and tell you...Sorry sir...you can't come in..under any circumstances...Your lass can come in...but you can't...:lol:
They wouldn't if they had a few pies to shift.

Macca

25-03-2021, 18:35

Really? It seems a virtual certainly to me... Why would BJ even be discussing it, then?:hmm:

Ok, I fancy losing another bet!:D So £100 to our charity of choice, whoever loses?

Oh, and you didn't answer my question: do you think any introduction of such certificates would be justified or unjust?:)

Marco.

If politicians don't want to do something then they will talk about doing something instead of doing it. Everyone who wants them to do it is pacified and moves on to the next thing.

With time they forget, or circumstances change and there's no point in doing whatever it was anymore. Kick the can down the road and into the long grass. Blair was a master of it.

I think it won't happened because it would be expensive, difficult to police, unpopular, and probably unnecessary.

But the virus situation is still too fluid to be making any money bets right now. That's because whilst I'm certain it is something they absolutely don't want to do, if the current situation develops poorly and all the medical advisors deem it necessary, then it could happen. If it's deemed a medical necessity then just or unjust doesn't come into it.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 18:40

They wouldn't if they had a few pies to shift.

Don't think Marco "does" pies, not unless the pastry has been hand-rolled by dark-haired oriental virgins on the banks of the Yangtze River, using ingredients no one's ever heard of, which double as Chinese medicine :) Which is why any self-respecting pub landlord would refuse entry... "Did you not see the sign? THE MANAGEMENT RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE HOITY TOITY PIE DODGERS" :D

Marco

25-03-2021, 18:45

They wouldn't if they had a few pies to shift.

Sorry, what's that supposed to mean - are you inferring that I'm a fatty?:D

Marco.

Macca

25-03-2021, 18:48

Only in those circumstances...If you turn up somewhere and expect to get in...they can refuse you entry just by looking you up and down...sorry sir, you can't come in...it is their lawful right....they reserve the right to refuse entry or service to whom ever they see fit...I don't like the look of you sir/madame and you are not coming in..it isn't a god given right that you can enter....and what has race got to do with it...or sexual orientation..for that matter... If you've let them know you are homosexual and they refuse you entry and are refused entry on those grounds, or they state, you're not coming in because you are black.. you will have a case hands down and it still doesn't mean you are going to get in..(but you state the obvious on this point)..but if you turn up there wearing a million pound suit..in a ferrari looking respectable ......don't think it's your legal right to enter.....they do not have to let you in...and they don't need a reason

Yes, they don't need to give a reason to you 'on the door' but if you are refused to be let in then you can claim it was because of discrimination. The cops will come and interview the accused and the first thing they are going to ask is 'Why did you refuse them?' At which point you are going to have to give a reason. If not then, then later in Court.

Anyway my point is it isn't correct to say they don't have to give a reason. If put to the test they do have to give a reason and it has to be a lawful one or they're nicked.

Marco

25-03-2021, 18:48

The same Drakeford that's sadly keeping the Welsh in masks until the end of the year?
That said, the Covid laws here have been extended until September, so who knows what'll happen.

No such decision has been reached for definite. He always reviews the situation, based on the pertaining conditions at the time.

And we're the ones who've enjoyed getting a haircut, and the removal of some other restrictions, a month before you lot in England, thanks to MD!:ner:;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 18:50

Sorry, what's that supposed to mean - are you inferring that I'm a fatty?:D

Marco.

I believe the preferred term these days is foodie :)

Marco

25-03-2021, 19:01

If politicians don't want to do something then they will talk about doing something instead of doing it. Everyone who wants them to do it is pacified and moves on to the next thing.

Well, with nonsensical behaviour like that (bordering on idiocy), then it's no wonder people have such little faith in the rationality of politicians!;)

With time they forget, or circumstances change and there's no point in doing whatever it was anymore. Kick the can down the road and into the long grass. Blair was a master of it.

I think it won't happened because it would be expensive, difficult to police, unpopular, and probably unnecessary.

As I said, let's hope you're right. Aside from anything else, it would also be grossly unfair on those expected to police it: the pub landlords and their staff, and no doubt would lead to unsavoury behaviour from some members of the public being refused entry to their premises, and also potentially to some violent altercations!

No way would I be entertaining it, if I worked in a pub, so I'd be finding myself a new job, as I wouldn't be getting paid enough to potentially put myself in harm's way like that:nono:

But the virus situation is still too fluid to be making any money bets right now. That's because whilst I'm certain it is something they absolutely don't want to do, if the current situation develops poorly and all the medical advisors deem it necessary, then it could happen. If it's deemed a medical necessity then just or unjust doesn't come into it.

In which case then, all the bollox we've been through for the past year and a half will have been for nothing, and the vaccines an abject failure!!

That really would be a doomsday scenario, and one I sincerely hope we won't see.

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 19:02

I believe the preferred term these days is foodie :)

I'm thinking in terms of the saying 'Who ate all the pies?'.

Marco.

Filterlab

25-03-2021, 19:07

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 19:08

I'm thinking in terms of the saying 'Who ate all the pies?'.

Marco.

That would be me :)

Marco

25-03-2021, 19:10

No publican in their right mind will go for that shite. They've had a year with no earnings, they're not going to turn away punters with pounds in their pockets for the sake of some vaccine nonsense.

If they do they're nailing the final nail into their coffins.

Indeed! And, rather ironically, I could also see pubs displaying signs, along the lines of 'No vaccine certificates here' ending up being the busiest!!:D

If I were a pub owner, I'd make a BIG thing about that, simply to stick two big FAT FINGERS up to the system! :upyours:

We need to forget all about this controlling/police state fucking shite, and get everyone who wants to be vaccinated, vaccinated, then simply learn to live with Covid, as best we can, the same as we do flu, and going forward, conduct our lives as normally (and freely) as possible!!!

You simply can't create a world that's risk-free from viruses. But you can create a world that's not worth living in, by sucking the very life out of it, if you continually impose restrictions on people being able to LIVE, rather than merely exist, and being in permanent enslavement by the authorities.

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 19:18

We need to forget about all this controlling/police state fucking shite
Marco.

I'm trying, but you keep bringing it up :ner:

Filterlab

25-03-2021, 19:28

Indeed! And, rather ironically, I could also see pubs displaying signs, along the lines of 'No vaccine certificates here' ending up being the busiest!!:D

If I were a pub owner, I'd make a BIG thing about that, simply to stick two big FAT FINGERS up to the system! :upyours:

We need to forget all about this controlling/police state fucking shite, and get everyone who wants to be vaccinated, vaccinated, then simply learn to live with Covid, as best we can, the same as we do flu, and going forward, conduct our lives as normally (and freely) as possible!!!

You simply can't create a world that's risk-free from viruses. But you can create a world that's not worth living in, by sucking the very life out of it, if you continually impose restrictions on people being able to LIVE, rather than merely exist, and being in permanent enslavement by the authorities.

Marco.

Well said sir!

Marco

25-03-2021, 19:31

I'm trying, but you keep bringing it up :ner:

Ha - I only bring it up when someone or something prompts me, such as the link Guy shared earlier, [the contents of which enraged me], and which subsequently kicked all this off, so blame THAT, not ME!!:ner:

;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 19:42

Ha - I only bring it up when someone or something prompts me, such as the link Guy shared earlier, [the contents of which enraged me], and which subsequently kicked all this off, so blame THAT not ME!!:ner:

;)

Marco.

I blame all of you - Radio 2 was full of this crap at lunchtime, but I maintained my calm demeanour throughout, despite wanting to reach into my radio and throttle the life out of Jeremy Whine. I'm not going to lose my shit over something that will almost certainly not happen :)

Marco

25-03-2021, 19:50

Well, we'll see won't we? But if it does happen, given your protestations here, I won't be afraid to say 'I told you so'!!:ner:

Although, of course, I would MUCH rather that dubious 'pleasure' remain forever unfulfilled.

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 19:53

Well, we'll see won't we? But if it does happen, given your protestations here, I won't be afraid to say 'I told you so'!!:ner:

Although, I would MUCH rather that dubious 'pleasure' remain forever unfulfilled.

Marco.

There have been protestations here. but they haven't come from me. I'm the calm voice of reason :)

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:01

Lol - you keep going on about me going on about whatever it is you don't like folk going on about!:lol:

That equates to the 'protestations' I'm referring to - and if we do end up with said vaccine certificates, then my 'going on about it' will have been entirely justified!! And then this scumbag Tory government, fronted by a supposed 'libertarian', will feel the full force of the power of the people....

:trust:

Marco.

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 20:04

I'm thinking in terms of the saying 'Who ate all the pies?'.

Marco.
Bingo!, but it's just friendly banter.
God forbid if you spent a day in our workshop if that bothered you, absolutely nothing is out of bounds in there :D

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 20:13

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:20

Bingo!, but it's just friendly banter.
God forbid if you spent a day in our workshop if that bothered you, absolutely nothing is out of bounds in there :D

Hahaha, no at all. You must remember that I was born and brought up in Glasgow, so banter is my middle name! Therefore, I'm certainly able to take it, as much as I dish it out (and in that respect, can be a relentlessly cruel bastard ;))

You have to be careful though that the person you're having banter with knows you well enough and appreciates the humour, otherwise it's unsavoury, as it turns being laughed WITH, into being laughed AT - and that simply isn't on.

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:27

Like any politician, Boris has mooted the idea to the press to gauge the nations mood.
Personally I can't ever see it happening as it'll be pretty much unworkable, but looking on social media, there's plenty who would be happy to have it either way.
We need unity, not division imo.
For me, anyone that gets triggered by all this media hype probably needs better things to do, rather than shouting at a computer screen, and that's not aimed at any one individual btw.

Well, firstly, rightly or wrongly [and I hope wrongly], I consider it as more than just media hype, and secondly, this is a discussion forum, so we discuss things with each other, some of which may annoy or anger us, particularly in this section, therefore it's not simply just 'shouting at a computer screen'.

If this discussion were occurring in a pub (just to keep things topical:D), I can assure you, you'd be under no illusions about *how* vociferous, passionate and determined I am about protecting my freedoms;)

Marco.

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 20:28

I can take being laughed at, no worries, but thanks :)

Barry

25-03-2021, 20:30

Would visitors to pubs be entitled to see the vaccine 'passports' of those who serve them?

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 20:34

Would visitors to pubs be entitled to see the vaccine 'passports' of those who serve them?
And this is why it'd never work.
The whole thing would fall into the realm of being utterly ridiculous.

Barry

25-03-2021, 20:36

Of course - that is why I posted the question. :D

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:45

I can take being laughed at, no worries, but thanks :)

So can I, as long as it's not malicious, If so, the person (or persons) responsible would get a sore mouth;)

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:49

Would visitors to pubs be entitled to see the vaccine 'passports' of those who serve them?

Spot on, and that's the first question I would ask, if I were being so challenged. I certainly wouldn't be shy about it either, simply to prove the very point you're making!!;)

Marco.

InThe Sticks

25-03-2021, 20:55

I have no words..

Marco

25-03-2021, 20:58

How so (and about what)?

Marco.

mad-moon

25-03-2021, 21:37

Yes, they don't need to give a reason to you 'on the door' but if you are refused to be let in then you can claim it was because of discrimination. The cops will come and interview the accused and the first thing they are going to ask is 'Why did you refuse them?' At which point you are going to have to give a reason. If not then, then later in Court.

Anyway my point is it isn't correct to say they don't have to give a reason. If put to the test they do have to give a reason and it has to be a lawful one or they're nicked.

Martin..You're wrong..They do not have to give a reason for them not allowing you in...and even if you do get in,they can and will refuse to serve you..the police will be called..but it will be the landlord or his/her employees, that will be the people ringing the police...and they, will remove you from the premises...The landlord has no obligation what so ever to give a reason..why he/she does not want you there..

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 21:42

Hahaha, no at all. You must remember that I was born and brought up in Glasgow, so banter is my middle name! Therefore, I'm certainly able to take it, as much as I dish it out (and in that respect, can be a relentlessly cruel bastard ;))

You have to be careful though that the person you're having banter with knows you well enough and appreciates the humour, otherwise it's unsavoury, as it turns being laughed WITH, into being laughed AT - and that simply isn't on.

Marco.

True, and mostly we get it about right, me and thee :) When it comes to taking the piss I can be relentless, but never with malice. And only with folk I think can appreciate it...

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 21:46

If this discussion were occurring in a pub (just to keep things topical:D), I can assure you, you'd be under no illusions about *how* vociferous, passionate and determined I am about protecting my freedoms;)

Marco.

You would have to be very vociferous to make yourself heard, as you'd be outside in the smoking shelter, while I'm in the pub keeping warm :)

Marco

25-03-2021, 21:49

You would have to be very vociferous to make yourself heard, as you'd be outside in the smoking shelter, while I'm in the pub keeping warm :)

Why would that be so? I don't smoke.. :scratch:

Unless you've tried to make some clever remark that's flown right over my daft napper...

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2021, 21:51

True, and mostly we get it about right, me and thee :) When it comes to taking the piss I can be relentless, but never with malice. And only with folk I think can appreciate it...

Indeed. Anyone who laughs at or takes the piss out of someone, maliciously, quite simply is a bully - and bullies deserve to be slapped (very) hard!!:punch:

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

25-03-2021, 22:00

Why would that be so? I don't smoke.. :scratch:

Unless you've tried to make some clever remark that's flown right over my daft napper...

Marco.

That's because you haven't been paying attention - sometimes I wonder why I bother :(

Marco

25-03-2021, 22:34

Ha - well I'm sorry, you'll have to explain :)

Marco.

mad-moon

26-03-2021, 00:12

now now girls..you'll be snapping each others beads shortly...xx

guy

26-03-2021, 06:50

So would it still be 'fine by you' if such an abomination to our civil liberties were introduced?

Marco.

I have got used to not going to the pub over the last God knows how many months, so in those terms yes.

If a publican (under government imposed guidelines) refused me entry :eek: then yes so be it.

Some people exercise their right to refuse to be vaccinated - fair enough
Do I not also have the right not to mix with them :scratch:

My Science may be off here, but isn't it the case that people who refuse vaccination, if infected, are more likely to act as sources of virus variants (and surely we certainly don't want to run the risk of more vaccine resistant strains)

Pigmy Pony

26-03-2021, 06:52

Ha - well I'm sorry, you'll have to explain :)

Marco.

Post #7010. A bit of levity, but you were too busy being outraged to notice :doh:

Pigmy Pony

26-03-2021, 06:57

now now girls..you'll be snapping each others beads shortly...xx

Oi! When it comes to Marco-baiting you're ten times worse than me :D

Pigmy Pony

26-03-2021, 07:06

Marco

26-03-2021, 07:17

Post #7010. A bit of levity, but you were too busy being outraged to notice :doh:

Jeez, you're going way back in the thread now... Ok, I've just read the post concerned, and you were responding to Guy, not me, so I'd probably have by-passed it, or skim-read it, and when seeing the word 'smoking', toddled off, before arriving at the punchline, under the premise of 'nothing of interest to see here'!

However, haha, good one!:D In any case, my apologies, I promise to do better in future:o:eyebrows:

Oh and btw, even as a non-smoker and someone who hates everything attached with the filthy habit, I was vehemently against the smoking ban, when it was introduced (for the very same reasons in terms of human rights, as with these proposed certificates), and worse how since then smokers have been ostracised and treated virtually as lepers in our society, and which I consider as fundamentally wrong.

In many ways, the smoking ban set the precedent for some of the things that the government have been allowed to get away with since, in terms of imposing increasing control/surveillance on our lives, and I certainly wouldn't want the non-vaccinated to end up being treated in the same appalling and unjust manner as smokers have, so perhaps you can understand why I react so adversely to anything being introduced that even remotely has a chance of making that happen?

Marco.

Macca

26-03-2021, 07:31

walpurgis

26-03-2021, 07:35

Interesting article about being vaccinated even if you have been exposed to Covid 19.

https://theconversation.com/why-you-should-get-a-covid-19-vaccine-even-if-youve-already-had-the-coronavirus-155712

Marco

26-03-2021, 07:42

I have got used to not going to the pub over the last God knows how many months, so in those terms yes.

If a publican (under government imposed guidelines) refused me entry :eek: then yes so be it.

Some people exercise their right to refuse to be vaccinated - fair enough
Do I not also have the right not to mix with them :scratch:

My Science may be off here, but isn't it the case that people who refuse vaccination, if infected, are more likely to act as sources of virus variants (and surely we certainly don't want to run the risk of more vaccine resistant strains)

Fair enough, and you can of course choose to mix with who you like. That wasn't my point though...

If such certificates become a reality, it would not only be an infringement of our civil liberties, in what supposedly is a free country, but it could also set a precedent in future, in terms of how such certificates or 'passports' could be used by the powers that be to control us [especially the non-vaccinated] and curtail our freedoms in other, much more essential and important areas.

I understand that everyone's desperate to get to the pub again, and to socialise with friends and family and return to more normality (me included), but we have to be very careful about what we give up in order for that to happen!

Plus as I said, what about the people who would be tasked to enforce the use of such certificates, i.e. pub landlords and staff? Is it fair to put that pressure on them and expose them to potential abuse or worse? Listening to the news yesterday, where some were interviewed, it would appear that they're dead against it, as they don't consider it's their job to 'police' their customers - and rightly so!

The basic fact though, as I've already stated, is that the introduction of vaccine certificates would be grossly discriminatory and an affront to human rights. There's simply no point in making vaccination voluntary, if you're going to penalise those not choosing to be vaccinated, by restricting their freedoms, thus forcing them to change their behaviour.

Covert fascism is as bad as any other! And treating the non-vaccinated effectively as second-class citizens is simply unacceptable.

Marco.

Macca

26-03-2021, 07:44

Has it not occurred to you that simply suggesting that this might happen is a good way of incentivising people to go and get vaccinated?

Marco

26-03-2021, 07:57

My Science may be off here, but isn't it the case that people who refuse vaccination, if infected, are more likely to act as sources of virus variants...

I'm not sure that's the case, although if anyone knows differently for a fact, they're welcome to say so and provide the necessary evidence, but then neither is there currently any conclusive proof that vaccinated people aren't still able to transmit the virus, so until that's the case, we shouldn't be drawing any conclusions about who's more liable to spread the virus or whom we should be mixing with or not!;)

Marco.

Marco

26-03-2021, 07:59

Has it not occurred to you that simply suggesting that this might happen is a good way of incentivising people to go and get vaccinated?

Absolutely, but as someone who highly values and fiercely protects his freedoms, the mere thought of these bloody things being introduced still irks me enough to moan about it!!:ner:;)

Marco.

guy

26-03-2021, 08:04

I'm not sure that's the case, although if anyone knows differently for a fact, they're welcome to say so and provide the necessary evidence, but then neither is there currently any conclusive proof that vaccinated people aren't still able to transmit the virus, so until that's the case, we shouldn't be drawing any conclusions about who's more liable to spread the virus or whom we should be mixing with or not!;)

Marco.

I am not sure either. I wasn't talking about the transmission of the virus - that can be achieved through inanimate objects.

I was wondering whether by a "host" not being vaccinated, the virus is more likely to reproduce/regenerate and thereby open up the possibility of making more virulent/vaccine resistant strains.

guy

26-03-2021, 08:05

Has it not occurred to you that simply suggesting that this might happen is a good way of incentivising people to go and get vaccinated?

definitely a possibility

Marco

26-03-2021, 08:09

I am not sure either. I wasn't talking about the transmission of the virus - that can be achieved through inanimate objects.

I was wondering whether by a "host" not being vaccinated, the virus is more likely to reproduce/regenerate and thereby open up the possibility of making more virulent/vaccine resistant strains.

Sure, but we don't know that yet, and until we do, I wouldn't be using that hypothesis as the basis to form any valid opinion on the matter.

My point really was that vaccinated people shouldn't be acting smugly thinking that they're somehow 'better' than the rest, or treating the non-vaccinated as 'lepers', thereby creating division and an 'us and them' situation, which would do none of us any favours.

Marco.

struth

26-03-2021, 09:09

Filterlab

26-03-2021, 09:28

Martin..You're wrong..They do not have to give a reason for them not allowing you in...and even if you do get in,they can and will refuse to serve you..the police will be called..but it will be the landlord or his/her employees, that will be the people ringing the police...and they, will remove you from the premises...The landlord has no obligation what so ever to give a reason..why he/she does not want you there..

You are quite correct Moony. According to Hospitality Law...

The age-old right of a licensee to refuse entry to whomever he wishes still remains and a landlord is not obliged to serve anyone just because they are willing to pay. A pub is a private place and the landlord can make the rules.

mad-moon

26-03-2021, 11:41

he will have to if you make a complaint about discrimination.

just the fact that the landlord doesn't want you there is discrimination in one way or another...If the chap/miss does happen to be of colour..and you refuse them entry...which card are they going to play ..you guessed it...the race card...and even if that card is played Martin...The landlord is still under no obligation to state to anyone, not even the Queen of England, why he doesn't want you there....It may be in the landlords interest to tell a police officer why he doesn't want them there, if it's a serious enough incident...but he doesn't have to do anything by LAW....:doh:

Macca

26-03-2021, 11:52

just the fact that the landlord doesn't want you there is discrimination in one way or another...If the chap/miss does happen to be of colour..and you refuse them entry...which card are they going to play ..you guessed it...the race card...and even if that card is played Martin...The landlord is still under no obligation to state to anyone, not even the Queen of England, why he doesn't want you there....It may be in the landlords interest to tell a police officer why he doesn't want them there, if it's a serious enough incident...but he doesn't have to do anything by LAW....:doh:

He would have to answer to the charges, if he remained silent it would go to Court. If he remained silent in Court he would be held in contempt.

Therefore he would have to eventually give a reason or go to jail. He could give a reason such as 'they looked like a troublemaker' and that would be fine. If his reason is 'They were black, or gay, or female' then he would be prosecuted. But he would have to give a reason if called to account.

mad-moon

26-03-2021, 14:37

He would have to answer to the charges, if he remained silent it would go to Court. If he remained silent in Court he would be held in contempt.

Therefore he would have to eventually give a reason or go to jail. He could give a reason such as 'they looked like a troublemaker' and that would be fine. If his reason is 'They were black, or gay, or female' then he would be prosecuted. But he would have to give a reason if called to account.

you state the obvious again Martin......If the landlord says nothing,,,EXERCISING HIS LEGAL RIGHT NOT TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY HE DOES NOT WANT YOU THERE which is his LEGAL RIGHT...You're not being admitted entry or service....You can go on and on and on about sex/race discrimination till the cows come home...If he doesn't like the look of you...and doesn't want you in his pub...it is his legal right...and nobody can do a thing.....but this is the last I'll say on the matter...You can have the last word..albeit..wrong...

Macca

26-03-2021, 16:58

I've explained it as many times as I can, not going to do it again.

Marco

26-03-2021, 18:00

:lolsign:

I do so love a pointless circular argument!:D

Marco.

Marco

26-03-2021, 18:13

Anyway, our stay local restrictions are being removed tomorrow, and we'll be able to wander aimlessly around the whole of Wales, albeit with the caveat of anything worth visiting still remaining closed!:eek::eyebrows:

Might take the car out for a good run tomorrow anyway, and have a nice walk along the beach, which I think Del would enjoy, as she's been DYING to get out a bit!:cool:

Marco.

Firebottle

26-03-2021, 18:36

Go for it Marco, we'd be joining you on the beach if we were allowed into Wales.

mad-moon

26-03-2021, 18:57

I do understand people wanting to get out and about. However, just because some chubby plonker with a queer haircut says we can..( fuck I can't get done for discrimination here can I? calling the Prime Minister of England cause 'es got a funny haircut )...doesn't mean you haven't got to keep on yer guard folks...or is what I am I stating blantantly obvious? ;)

Marco

26-03-2021, 19:08

Go for it Marco, we'd be joining you on the beach if we were allowed into Wales.

Cheers, mate. How are things with you?:) Are you guys out of full lockdown from Monday, and allowed to travel anywhere within England?

We'll see how the weather is, as it's not looking too great for later in the day, but if possible the princess will enjoy getting some sand between her toes!:D

Oh, and she loves collecting shells to 'make things' [WANT shells! Lol], bringing them into the car all full of sand, mess everywhere, then ending up doing bugger all with them...:doh:

Marco.

Marco

26-03-2021, 22:38

Firebottle

27-03-2021, 08:06

We're OK Marco.
12th April is the date that we can stay away from home, so in the motorhome we shall be!

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 13:22

Yo Piggurs,

It must be your turn now not to be paying proper attention... No comment on my post 7060, which was directed at YOO, lol - see here:: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?68302-Johns-Hopkins-Medical-Centre-World-Coronavirus-infection-Map-by-Country&p=1262163#post1262163

WAKEY, WAKEY, EGGS & BAKEY!!

:ner::D;)

Marco.

Oh yes I saw your post, but I tend to only reply when I disagree, that's where the fun is :D But at the risk of giving you a big head, I agree with all the points you made, apart from your frequent comments about smoking being a FILTHY habit. It's just a habit. No more filthy than driving an uncatalysed oil burner :ner:

Filterlab

27-03-2021, 13:35

:lol:

Marco

27-03-2021, 13:56

Oh yes I saw your post, but I tend to only reply when I disagree, that's where the fun is :D But at the risk of giving you a big head, I agree with all the points you made, apart from your frequent comments about smoking being a FILTHY habit. It's just a habit. No more filthy than driving an uncatalysed oil burner :ner:

Haha, I thought I only mentioned it once.. I don't remember any 'frequent comments'. Will need to go back and check.

Glad we're in agreement then, so you can see why I get 'het up' about these things. Oh, and I tend to reply to folk when I see one of these signs '?' at the end of someone's sentence, addressing me, as it usually means they're looking for an answer:ner:;)

Marco.

Marco

27-03-2021, 14:04

Yup, as I thought, I only mentioned it once, thus:

Oh and btw, even as a non-smoker and someone who hates everything attached with the filthy habit, I was vehemently against the smoking ban..

So where are all the "frequent comments" then, daftee?:ner::D

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 14:26

Haha, I thought I only mentioned it once.. I don't remember any 'frequent comments'. Will need to go back and check.

Glad we're in agreement then, so you can see why I get 'het up' about these things. Oh, and I tend to reply to folk when I see one of these signs '?' at the end of someone's sentence, addressing me, as it usually means they're looking for an answer:ner:;)

Marco.

The question mark at the end of post #7060 doesn't belong, it's cack grammar :D

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 14:31

Yup, as I thought, I only mentioned it once, thus:

So where are all the "frequent comments" then, daftee?:ner::D

Marco.

I don't mean "frequent" in that one post, but in many of the posts you have er, posted over the last couple of years which reference smoking. And maybe long before that for all I know. It's a habit you have, but not necessarily filthy :)

Marco

27-03-2021, 14:40

Ah I see... Well I certainly wouldn't call it frequent, as I haven't mentioned it for years, and before yesterday, certainly not this year. We must have a rather different definition then of the word 'frequent'.

Now if it we were talking about fart gas or jobbies, I could see your point!:D

But that's not so much filthy, as 'fragrant':eyebrows:

Marco.

struth

27-03-2021, 17:37

Seeing as it's nearly April, it's coming up for my baw wash [emoji16]

I can't wait for help... [emoji23]

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 17:55

Seeing as it's nearly April, it's coming up for my baw wash [emoji16]

I can't wait for help... [emoji23]

Is that her name, April?

struth

27-03-2021, 17:59

Is that her name, April?

im up the crack of dawn tomorrow.... dawn? do i know her???:D

Marco

27-03-2021, 18:08

Moreover, what about her crack?:D

Be careful though that you don't make your regular nurse/baw-washer jealous;)

Marco.

Marco

27-03-2021, 19:10

Just noticed this, lol...

The question mark at the end of post #7060 doesn't belong, it's cack grammar :D

How so:

In many ways, the smoking ban set the precedent for some of the things that the government have been allowed to get away with since, in terms of imposing increasing control/surveillance on our lives, and I certainly wouldn't want the non-vaccinated to end up being treated in the same appalling and unjust manner as smokers have, so perhaps you can understand why I react so adversely to anything being introduced that even remotely has a chance of making that happen?

No issue there with grammar. You were clearly asked a question, the answer to which (in post 7083) you could've used as your reply!:ner:;)

Marco,

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 22:41

In many ways, the smoking ban set the precedent for some of the things that the government have been allowed to get away with since, in terms of imposing increasing control/surveillance on our lives, and I certainly wouldn't want the non-vaccinated to end up being treated in the same appalling and unjust manner as smokers have, so perhaps you can understand why I react so adversely to anything being introduced that even remotely has a chance of making that happen.

Marco.

Just trying something out - that reads better now, in spite of it being a reeaalllly long sentence :D

Pigmy Pony

27-03-2021, 22:47

Just noticed this, lol...

How so:

No issue there with grammar. You were clearly asked a question, the answer to which (in post 7083) you could've used as your reply!:ner:;)

Marco,

Nope, it's just a statement with a question mark tacked on the end. And now you're determined to convolute it to the point where I get bored and go away. Which I am doing now. nighty night :) Oh and don't forget to put your clocks forward...

Marco

27-03-2021, 23:23

Just trying something out - that reads better now, in spite of it being a reeaalllly long sentence :D

Yes, such as people who are able to write properly can construct!:D

Missing out the question mark at the end may make it read better to you [if indeed that's the only difference between your amended version and mine, as I can't be arsed checking], but it fundamentally changes what I had intended, which was for you to confirm that you understood what I was asking you to understand (as outlined).

Not answering the question, therefore, confirms nothing, which is why I prompted you for a reply - and your subsequent reply (once pushed) contained the information I wanted, so job done!:ner::ner:

;)

Therefore, from now on, shweety, when I present you with a question [even if in your head it isn't], answer it! You'll know, as it'll have one of these at the end: "?":lol:

Marco.

Marco

27-03-2021, 23:36

Oh and don't forget to put your clocks forward...

Thanks. I hope having an hour's less beauty sleep won't prove to be too devastating for you:D;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

28-03-2021, 07:20

Yes, such as people who are able to write properly can construct!:D

Missing out the question mark at the end may make it read better to you [if indeed that's the only difference between your amended version and mine, as I can't be arsed checking], but it fundamentally changes what I had intended, which was for you to confirm that you understood what I was asking you to understand (as outlined).

Not answering the question, therefore, confirms nothing, which is why I prompted you for a reply - and your subsequent reply (once pushed) contained the information I wanted, so job done!:ner::ner:

;)

Therefore, from now on, shweety, when I present you with a question [even if in your head it isn't], answer it! You'll know, as it'll have one of these at the end: "?":lol:

Marco.

Ok, duly noted? Anyway, time for some breakfast? Anita's doing a full English today? Then I plan to have a lazy day, as the weather here is awful and set to stay that way? Oh, and a prompt reply to all these questions would be greatly appreciated? :)

Marco

28-03-2021, 10:32

Ok, duly noted?

No, my name's Marco.

Anyway, time for some breakfast?

Thanks for the invite, but I have a pressing appointment with a rather stubborn stool.

Anita's doing a full English today?

Really? She must have some stamina.

Then I plan to have a lazy day, as the weather here is awful and set to stay that way?

Yes, looking out the window I'd say that was an astute observation.

Oh, and a prompt reply to all these questions would be greatly appreciated? :)

Duly done. I aim to please:)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

28-03-2021, 11:44

:lol: You took your bloody time...

Marco

28-03-2021, 12:25

Unfortunately it took that long for the plumber to unblock the drains:(

It must've been that beef olive.

Marco.

struth

28-03-2021, 15:40

Pigmy Pony

28-03-2021, 17:20

Unfortunately it took that long for the plumber to unblock the drains:(

It must've been that beef olive.

Marco.

Delayed even more by the plumber and his colleagues doing "Rock paper scissors" to decide who gets the job :)

Firebottle

29-03-2021, 07:18

:lolsign:

mad-moon

29-03-2021, 10:02

Delayed even more by the plumber and his colleagues doing "Rock paper scissors" to decide who gets the job :)

Or the Jobbie...as the case may be...:lol:

Marco

29-03-2021, 10:30

Happiness is a pressing out a well-packed jobbie:D

Marco.

Jac Hawk

29-03-2021, 12:03

UK hits 30 million first vaccine doses - 57% of all adults.. A total of 3,527,481 have now had two doses - 6% of the adult population.
The UK is expecting its first batch of Moderna jabs next month, a development which could see the vaccine rollout expanded to those aged between 40 and 49.

Because i'm type 1 diabetic i've had my 1st Astra Zeneca jab, the side effects were like having a bad cold for a week but nothing worse than that, as for as vaccinations are concerned we must be up there with most imunised countries, unfortunately much of western europe is way behind us, i was speeking to friends in Spain they are nearing there 50's and in good health and have been told not to expect imunisation before June 2022

mad-moon

29-03-2021, 12:21

Happiness is a pressing out a well-packed jobbie:D

Marco.

Aye...There's nowt like a good shite...

Pigmy Pony

30-03-2021, 05:58

Because i'm type 1 diabetic i've had my 1st Astra Zeneca jab, the side effects were like having a bad cold for a week but nothing worse than that, as for as vaccinations are concerned we must be up there with most imunised countries, unfortunately much of western europe is way behind us, i was speeking to friends in Spain they are nearing there 50's and in good health and have been told not to expect imunisation before June 2022

:eek: 2022? Blimey! It'll be interesting to see how the vaccination programmes for say, Spain and Greece progress compared to Germany and France. After all the EU is all about fairness for its member states isn't it?

Pigmy Pony

30-03-2021, 05:59

Happiness is a pressing out a well-packed jobbie:D

Marco.

So that's why you're always smiling - and I thought it was just wind...

Marco

30-03-2021, 06:29

Yesh, shweety, that and the butt plug...

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

30-03-2021, 18:48

Yesh, shweety, that and the butt plug...

Marco.

Is that the one you keep by the fireside, or have you moved to the next size up? :)

Firebottle

30-03-2021, 19:02

Olde world meets new world.

Fireside --- Butt plug :rfl:

struth

02-04-2021, 08:31

so bojo is wanting to make everyone carry a vaccinatine certifcate then... emm, i think not. a two teir britain indeed. i see that becoming a loser to the tories..

Macca

02-04-2021, 09:46

They're still just kicking it around if you ask me. Testing the waters, and they are cold.

Vaccine passport for overseas travel looks very likely though.

Filterlab

02-04-2021, 11:13

I can see a 'Vaccine Pass' being a kicking off point for major protests. That sort of crap will get people's backs up as the rules state that vaccines are not mandatory and are at the discretion of the recipient. Creating a system whereby people become restricted for choosing whether they want to have a vaccine is a serious step in the wrong direction. I envisage a lot of potential for lynching, property damage, and riot in the worst cases.

And then where does it stop? Restrictions on those who've not had flu jabs or wideband inoculations, or upon those who've historically had a virus of any sort or an infectious disease? It will create a huge divide in a nation that's constantly bombarded with 'inclusiveness' and a steadying reduction in freedom of speech (AKA opinions).

I say let the government do it and then reap the consequences; the government will have an enormous headache and financial fallout to deal with. And then no Tory will ever get in power for generations.

Marco

02-04-2021, 11:36

so bojo is wanting to make everyone carry a vaccinatine certifcate then... emm, i think not. a two teir britain indeed. i see that becoming a loser to the tories..

Has there been some new development then - if so, link please? Otherwise, like Martin, I thought they were still kicking it around, as it were.

Otherwise, I agree with everything Rob has just said, although I would dearly rather such an affront to our human rights never saw the light of day in the first place!!

Marco.

Filterlab

02-04-2021, 11:39

...although I would dearly rather such an affront to our human rights never saw the light of day in the first place!!

Marco.

^^ This.

If ever there were need for a proper national referendum, this would be a worthwhile use of data collection.

struth

02-04-2021, 11:40

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56517486

Marco

02-04-2021, 12:15

Cheers, mate. But that's an old article from 25th March, which if you scroll back a few pages you'll see has already be discussed (indeed you were part of it), lol;)

Marco.

struth

02-04-2021, 12:28

aye but its come back up .. that was just one i could find.. its in todays news. at least 70 mps are again'it and starmer is on the fence as he know which way to jump.. so he is of little use. if the sturge has any sense, she will condemn it and knock her nearest rivals, 'the tories' down a peg:D

Marco

02-04-2021, 12:33

Haha, indeed... However, so in reality the idea is still just being kicked around, as Martin says - and hopefully, if they've any sense, kicked into touch!!

Marco.

struth

02-04-2021, 12:36

Haha, indeed... However, so in reality the idea is still just being kicked around, as Martin says - and hopefully, if they've any sense, kicked into touch!!

Marco.

the fact that he is indeed strongly kicking it about shows his true feelings tho. he would have it in a shot; say its temporary and then keep it.

Marco

02-04-2021, 12:48

So much then for the supposed 'libertarian', or 'floppy-haired hippy-type'?:rolleyes:

The image up until now he liked to portray to the public. Two-faced fuck!

Marco.

Macca

02-04-2021, 15:02

This is the official position as of 3rd March and I can't see anything has changed other than the news are kicking the story about a bit, probably because nothing else is happening and the idea is controversial:

The Government is reviewing whether COVID-status certificates could play a role in reopening parts of our economy, reducing restrictions on social contact and improving safety.

As set out in the roadmap by the Prime Minister, this review will include assessing to what extent certification would be effective in reducing risk, and the potential uses to enable access to settings or a relaxation of COVID-Secure mitigations. The Government will also consider the ethical, equalities, privacy, legal and operational aspects of this approach and what limits, if any, should be placed on organisations using certification. It will draw on external advice to develop recommendations that take into account any social and economic impacts, and implications for disproportionately impacted groups and individuals’ privacy and security. The Government will set out its conclusions in advance of Step 4 in order to inform the safe reopening of society and the economy.

As the Prime Minister has said, there are complex ethical issues - and we can't discriminate against people who, for whatever reason, haven't had a vaccine.

Cabinet Office

Filterlab

02-04-2021, 15:22

70 MPs voiced against it apparently.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/over-70-mps-voice-opposition-to-boris-johnsons-plans-for-vaccine-passports/

Marco

02-04-2021, 16:02

70 MPs voiced against it apparently.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.lbc.co.uk/news/over-70-mps-voice-opposition-to-boris-johnsons-plans-for-vaccine-passports/

Well done!! :clap::clap:

And MORE need to come forward and voice their disapproval of these unwarranted and disgraceful impingements on our civil liberties.

Key quotes from the article linked to above:

"With high levels of vaccination protecting the vulnerable and making transmission less likely, we should aim to return to normal life, not to put permanent restrictions in place."

And:

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey, who also put his name to the pledge, said he hoped to turn the tide on "creeping authoritarianism" from Downing Street.

He said: "As we start to get this virus properly under control **we should start getting our freedoms back**, vaccine passports - essentially Covid ID cards - take us in the other direction."

Plus:

Meanwhile, UK Hospitality (UKH), the British Beer & Pub Association (BBPA) and the British Institute of Innkeepers (BII) - have also raised their concerns over the proposals, describing the measures as "impractical burdens".

They also objected to Government guidance asking every hospitality customer aged over 16 to give their contact details to staff or check in via the NHS Covid-19 app once restrictions are eased.

In a joint statement, the pub representatives said: "Government has promised the country that we will be reopening but we are now being told that this will be with our hands tied behind our backs.

"Pubs will already be trading at a loss when they reopen with all the existing restrictions and Covid-secure measures in place.

"Adding further disproportionate and discriminatory measures threatens the very survival of thousands of businesses.

"It's unfair to single out our sector again with these added impractical burdens that will have economic consequences and risk our recovery."

:exactly: :clapclapclap:

FUCKING YEE-HAH to *ALL* of the above!!!

International travel is one thing, as when moving outside of the UK into another country, you're subject to the laws of the land into which you're travelling, but such 'vaccine passports' should NEVER be used domestically in a supposedly FREE country, such as the UK!:nono:

If they are introduced, then I predict riots and much civil unrest, as others and I who, through freedom of choice, have chosen not to be vaccinated, will quite simply *NOT* just sit back and be wrongfully discriminated against by the powers that be, and treated as second-class citizens or 'lepers'. In terms of our human rights, we DEMAND to be treated fairly and equally, alongside the vaccinated, and will do whatever it takes in our power, such as conducting mass public protests, in order to protect our rightful freedoms!!

:trust:

As was said earlier, as of now, we should be aiming to return to normal life, as much as is humanly possible, not placing (arguably) permanent restrictions on our present or future liberties.

Marco.

Marco

02-04-2021, 16:17

https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/stopvaccinepassports/

Join the fight to protect our freedoms and STOP vaccine passports (or 'Covid ID cards')!

The vaccine is not mandatory, so those choosing not to be vaccinated should NOT be penalised for making the same FREE choice, as those who chose to have it - simples!:)

Marco.

struth

02-04-2021, 16:51

Marco

02-04-2021, 17:03

there are some strange stats coming out of scotland too.. r no is near 1 but our rates of cases are now about 2% of tested, so well under 5% who threashhold of under control. they cant have to both ways. when it was 8% it was just over 1... Me thinks they tell porkies to try and keep people apart.
As much as the desire to do that is admirable, I much prefer folk just told truth, as it will come out eventually.

Its a bit like I was told I'd get my jag in a couple of weeks, and now im told its 8 weeks, and that is 4 weeks on from when they said 2. The girl embarrassingly said folk dont like hearing long waiting times... well, here is the truth, they dislike even more being lied to!!

Hear, hear, mate!

In terms of the first bit, however, I don't consider it as "admirable", but rather controlling, which I find both abhorrent and dangerous! I *won't be* controlled or bullied by anyone! :nono:

The only right and acceptable form of behaviour, is to be honest and upfront, TELL THE TRUTH, BASED ON THE FACTS, and then let people make their OWN choices, in terms of their subsequent actions!

Marco.

P.S I took the liberty of correcting your typo at the end of the second bit highlighted ['too' instead of 'to'].

Filterlab

02-04-2021, 17:16

...Me thinks they tell porkies to try and keep people apart...

The "authorities", telling lies?! Never!

I thought the ability to lie continually about everything was question one of the admittance exam.

struth

02-04-2021, 17:18

Hear, hear, mate!

In terms of the first bit, however, I don't consider it as "admirable", but rather controlling, which I find both abhorrent and dangerous! I *won't be* controlled by anyone or any thing! :nono:

The only right and acceptable form of behaviour, is to be honest and upfront, TELL THE TRUTH, BASED ON THE FACTS, and then let people make their own choices, in terms of their subsequent actions!

Marco.

P.S I took the liberty of correcting your typo at the end of the second bit highlighted ['too' instead of 'to'].

well only admirable in keeping folk apart currently as there is still a pandemic going on, but lying to do it is wrong. majority of folk will behave if levelled with, as long as the authority doesnt take the piss. im in a position where i can feel the results of all of this.. 13 months without touching anyone; trust me that isnt easy. to find folk are just saying what is easiest for them isnt acceptable.

judging by way its going its going to be well into may before i get my first jab... well behind folk in 40's.. my son is 42 and has had his ffs.

scotland's vaccine program has been poor compared to rest of uk

Marco

02-04-2021, 17:43

well only admirable in keeping folk apart currently as there is still a pandemic going on, but lying to do it is wrong.

Exactly, it should be done through presenting people with the unbiased facts, in terms of what the 'R' number *actually* is in their area [if the authorities even know it themselves], thus allowing them to make their own FREE choices, based on government guidelines, not through an insidious form of coercion, facilitated by outright lies!

I feel for you mate, in terms of sheer length of time you've been unacceptably held under virtual 'house arrest', and hope it ends ASAP.

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 08:33

guy

03-04-2021, 08:46

..........
If having a covid green card would allow me to go and see my dad back at home in Venice especially after he had a heart operation yesterday
I am all for liberty and privacy and such and so on but if putting a tattoo on the forehead of a rapist or psychopath will stop them hurting peoples, I am also for it.
...............

Bloody awful position to be in, I hope it all goes well with your dad and that you are able to see him in the near future.

I also agree with your sentiments about "passports" and such like.
I think that ID cards (or for the sake of stopping fraud a Chip with you NI number) would be fine.

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 08:54

Filterlab

03-04-2021, 09:09

Sandro, I don't think anyone is objecting to the likelihood of "vaccination passports" for foreign travel (that decision would be down to foreign powers anyway). The objection is to the (remote imo) possibility of having the certificates restricting our freedoms within this country.

Exactly this. Entering other countries with different strains, and potentially bringing them back, is one matter, not being able to go into a pub or shop in one's own country is plain daft.

And where have the "passports" been for the countless other infectious diseases and viruses in the past and currently with us? Pneumonia, other Influenza strains, Diptheria, Ebola, Hepititus, etc? They've all been responsible for many thousands of times more deaths, and yet there's no requirement to prove innnoculation or zero infection to go into a shop? What makes COVID so special in comparison that we need to hamper people's movements in their own country and remove their rights to freedom?

It makes not a sausage of sense to me.

As I've said before, I had COVID in Dec '19 and it was a couple of days of feeling grim, no biggy. Yes, it's killed several people, but so have the others listed - way more in fact. To then stop everyone who doesn't want / doesn't need / can't have the vaccine is utterly ridiculous. It's tantamount to tattooing a number on a person to show who they are.

Macca

03-04-2021, 09:11

Macca

03-04-2021, 09:16

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 09:17

You Gov poll shows support for domestic vaccine passports at around 56%

A fairly even split, but you also have to consider that the "against" group will be twice as vocal, and much more likely to be throwing bricks if things don't go their way. Still don't believe it will happen anyway.

struth

03-04-2021, 09:19

like all polls of that sort it depends what you actually ask and to whom, and when. far too much scaremongering

struth

03-04-2021, 09:21

See also - Sir Humphrey's guide to dealing with a crisis:

1) say that nothing is going to happen

2) say that something might happen but that we don't need to do anything

3) agree that something is happening but that we don't know what we can do about it

4) say that there might have been something that we could have done but that it's too late now.

"Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
"Yes"
"Do you think there is lack of discipline and vigorous training in our Comprehensive Schools?"
"Yes"
"Do you think young people welcome some structure and leadership in their lives?"
"Yes"
"Do they respond to a challenge?"
"Yes"
"Might you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
"Yes"

Now onto Survey 2

"Mr. Woolley are you worried about the danger of war?"
"Yes"
"Are you unhappy about the growth of armaments?"
"Yes"
"Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
"Yes"
"Do you think its wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
"Yes"
"Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
"Yes"

Macca

03-04-2021, 09:24

like all polls of that sort it depends what you actually ask and to whom, and when. far too much scaremongering

That too, I'm sure we are all aware of Sir Humphrey's guidance on how to conduct an opinion poll? If not, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3I6hcuzMVY

Marco

03-04-2021, 09:24

I agree whit what you say in principles but
If having a covid green card would allow me to go and see my dad back at home in Venice especially after he had a heart operation yesterday without having to pay few £K on mandatory hotel confinement when I can back or having to take a further time off work, I am all for it
I can’t really see what is wrong whit it apart from the label Passport
From what I understand all it sez is that you have the antibody and can do no harm to other peoples
I am all for liberty and privacy and such and so on but if putting a tattoo on the forehead of a rapist or psychopath will stop them hurting peoples, I am also for it.

I see nothing wrong whit refusing the vaccine and so forth but you also must respect my liberties and the fact that I do not want to catch this thing and for the nature of it unknowingly pass it on to others especially the ones I Love
The “current situation” should have never been a tool for political games and it saddens me to see this.
Nature or manmade the starting gun has gone off and most of the kids are missing it.
Next shot is camming, not if but when, and we missed a perfectly good chance to man up (can I say Man up on this site ?) The time to start running in the same direction and help each other is past overdue
Turn this on its head
You know that there was a big phone communication black out in the area around the level 4 biological test lab in Wuhan just before this started and if they told us about it instead of respecting the privacy of the one’s involved none of this would be happening

That's fine, Sandro, and I also respect and understand your views on the matter:)

As I've said, I don't have a problem with any 'vaccine passport' or Green card for international travel, as it's use is much more justified, but not for me, domestically.

I don't want to be precluded from going into a pub, restaurant, cinema, football ground (or what else if these things take off - perhaps to enter a supermarket to buy food?) simply because I've chosen to exercise my free right not to be vaccinated. It's discriminatory and it's wrong, plus unfair to the people at the sharp end who'd have to police it - and most importantly the precedent it could set in future, in terms of the ability for authorities to impose even more controls on our freedoms.

Furthermore, there's currently no *indisputable* evidence that the vaccine makes you less likely to be a carrier for the virus, so you can't make the automatic assumption that you'll be any safer in the sole company of vaccinated people, or with a few also who haven't, although it would be reasonable to assume by the end of the vaccination programme that the former will significantly outweigh the latter, and so if you believe that would make a difference to how how well protected you are, can take some solace from that.

The virus is shrinking (and will continue to do so now that vaccines are kicking in), so now is the time to start *regaining* our freedoms, which we've all been deprived of for so long, and returning to as much of the normality we knew previously as possible, NOT imposing yet more restrictions that could have permanent (and potentially catastrophic) effects on our lives.

As I've said before, when everyone who wants to receive the vaccine has had it, and we begin to develop herd immunity, so that the virus is no longer the threat it once was [and which *will* become a reality, sooner rather than later], we simply need to MANAGE it, and learn to live with it the same as flu, and where every year (if you want) you're given a Covid jab, alongside one for flu.

THAT is the way forward, not imposing hugely discriminatory (possibly permanent) restrictions on our domestic freedoms, such as with these proposed vaccine certificates, which when Covid becomes much less of a threat, and as manageable as flu [and it will], the arguable level of 'protection' offered by such certificates. will for many, be utterly disproportionate to the levels of grief they'd continue to cause!!

In any case, I also hope all goes well with your dad and that you're able to see him soon:cool:

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 09:26

This is the problem they are having. A lot of people want them and an almost equally large number don't want them. What is a politician supposed to do to court popularity?

The ultimate aim is to kick the can down the road a bit and hope that events overtake the need to make a final decision (in this case the hope infection rates drop rapidly in the meantime and the whole idea becomes moot).

There you go politics
should it no be reason and science?

What is wrong whit :
If U are a lucky one that already had it an can still walk to the PUB or had the vaccine and in both cases have the antibody feel free to do what you like..
If you not sure and so on please be careful and act responsibly or U not camming in at discretion of the land lord based on the customer's he is cratering for.

What about when I get discriminatedagaints because I am a bit unsteady on my feet and I am denied entry to the next PUB?

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 09:41

The virus is shrinking (and will continue to do so now that vaccines are kicking in), so now is the time to start *regaining* our freedoms, which we've all been deprived of for so long, and returning to as much of the normality we knew previously as possible, NOT imposing yet more restrictions that could have permanent (and potentially catastrophic) effects on our lives.

Marco.

So an acknowledgement that the vaccines are doing their job - you're welcome!:D

Marco

03-04-2021, 09:44

I think that ID cards (or for the sake of stopping fraud a Chip with you NI number) would be fine.

So you've not paid a blind bit of notice to anything others and I have said on the matter or what effect such ID cards could have on our freedoms?

And mark my word, Guy, if these things do become a reality, you won't be immune to the above, should these types of controls extend to other areas, just because you've had a Covid jab!

Take the blinkers off, open your eyes and consider the LONG GAME for the authorities in all of this, not just the here and now.

Marco.

Marco

03-04-2021, 09:47

So an acknowledgement that the vaccines are doing their job - you're welcome!:D

Lol - HOPEFULLY, yes. However, we'll see what position we're in same time next year, and how many lockdowns, or otherwise, there have been since!;)

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 09:54

5) say that you did not say what you said

There you go politics
should it no be reason and science?
Why not play this way?:
If U are a lucky one that already had it an can still walk to the PUB or had the vaccine and in both cases have the antibody feel free to do what you like..
If you not sure and so on please be careful and act responsibly or U not camming in at discretion of the land lord based on the customer's he is cratering for.

What about when I get discriminatedagaints because I am a bit unsteady on my feet and I am denied entry to the next PUB?

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 10:01

BTW U need your I.D. card to buy a phone SIM card in Italy

How's that no one do any thing about it?

Marco

03-04-2021, 10:05

And where have the "passports" been for the countless other infectious diseases and viruses in the past and currently with us? Pneumonia, other Influenza strains, Diptheria, Ebola, Hepititus, etc? They've all been responsible for many thousands of times more deaths, and yet there's no requirement to prove innnoculation or zero infection to go into a shop? What makes COVID so special in comparison that we need to hamper people's movements in their own country and remove their rights to freedom?

Moreover, once (hopefully) the effect of the vaccines creates herd immunity, and Covid becomes no more of a concern than flu, all of the above will still continue to kill a similar number of people, without the need to for controls imposed by certificates!

And here's the thing:

Do you think when annual deaths from Covid, due to vaccines, amount to no more than those from flu/pneumonia, and Covid is being successfully managed in the same way as flu, that these certificates/ID cards (if introduced) would be abolished?

No fucking chance!! It'd simply become another 'new normal'.

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 10:28

yes they will If you and me and the rest can be bothered to go and vote for it

Thing is right now it is not like the flu as any Brasilian would tell you

Marco

03-04-2021, 10:31

A fairly even split, but you also have to consider that the "against" group will be twice as vocal, and much more likely to be throwing bricks if things don't go their way.

Damn right, and I'll be at the front throwing the biggest ones at the most deserved targets!!;)

Let's make it clear though that "their way" would simply equate to what's right and befits the tenets of a free society. No-one's asking for any 'special favours'!

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 10:32

Preliminary CDC estimates for the 2019-2020 influenza season indicate that, as of April 4, 2020, between 24,000 and 62,000 lost their lives to the flu. Add to that the misery of hundreds of thousands of flu-related hospitalizations and millions of medical visits for flu symptoms.
This Is How Many People Die From the Flu Each Year ... (https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year#:~:text=Preliminary%20CDC%20estimates%20for%2 0the%202019-2020%20influenza%20season,and%20millions%20of%20me dical%20visits%20for%20flu%20symptoms.)
https://theartofsound.net/forum/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABQAAAAUCAYAAAC NiR0NAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAARnQU1BAACxjwv8YQUAAAAJc EhZcwAADsIAAA7CARUoSoAAAAJYSURBVDhPrVS5biJBEAXJBGD E8RPkZJBCxpXgT DIOD8GEDFnxLHeCATYwA sQQbEhvADJkDQ3VuvPB6NBbtmV1vSm mpev2mZrqqTEKIb4RXKeUPui8Oh8Pi7e1tcTweF R7ge98PjOwhg8xcMDVfNj7SniE4FZpttlsVKFQUKlUSpXLZbXb 7ST8tIEB2 /3slKpqHQ6rfL5vFqv1 yHEecnBF 0Z9Vut4XNZhMmk0n4fD4xGAzORBJGDIfDs9/vZ47VahXNZlNo2xWyNRFJF z1esrpdCoiq1AopEaj0XtaBhuPxzIcDiuz2czcTqejRVhwiQwX 2rPq9/u6YCQSYUEy/ZMBCEajUV2w2 1qu/mTPwsaM4Tg09MTcd6FiMec5 dnFgTH4XB8yvBC0JghNs1ms4tDmc/nMhaLcYYQvJah8R9KEpQkKAOBgKzVamK73Uo6fQbW9XpdBINB5 oBLGer/mQQXFxm6XC7O0OPxqHg8LrPZrMpkMgysHx4eJGLgfPkPIeh2u5 l8f3 vLBaLvLu7w52hrSVi4ODlNwva7XZFdcabqTYZWMOH2M2CH5/s9XrRNbJarXLXAFgXi0WJGDi/ Srh0KFLakO0R3ydDoxYFSHggr79kPBW/F2lA1qjgxEBmw6nX5ZNrqgsbDRXugKoyCAYv nwkanQFAL6TaZTP7cenT578NBF2y1Wn89vhqNxufxRRd9wGJY5 nI5lUgkVKlUujpg4UMsmUxy56xWK/bDiMMD9pEWKwLG ZJGO4PG/BI whJ AGv4EPvgaX7wVkKI778AJ/KqpFUbcB4AAAAASUVORK5CYII=
www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-y…

Coronavirus Cases:130,942,125

view by country (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)
Deaths:2,852,898

Coronavirus Update (Live): 130,942,125 Cases and 2,852,898 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer (worldometers.info) (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

From worldometer corona

Marco

03-04-2021, 10:40

yes they will If you and me and the rest can be bothered to go and vote for it

Thing is right now it is not like the flu as any Brasilian would tell you

If the argument was that ID cards/certificates would only be a temporary measure, until Covid was brought under control and no more deadly than flu, and afterwards abolished, then that would just about be acceptable, but you and I, and everyone else here, knows that's not how things work.

Mark my words, if these things are introduced, not only will they STICK, but will set the precedent for many further restrictions imposed on our lives in the coming years. That's why you have to consider the bigger picture, if this is given the green light, and not just the here and now.

Marco.

guy

03-04-2021, 10:43

So you've not paid a blind bit of notice to anything others and I have said on the matter or what effect such ID cards could have on our freedoms?

And mark my word, Guy, if these things do become a reality, you won't be immune to the above, should these types of controls extend to other areas, just because you've had a Covid jab!

Take the blinkers off, open your eyes and consider the LONG GAME for the authorities in all of this, not just the here and now.

Marco.

Just stating my opinion.

Advantages of passive device which only contains National insurance number - which can then be checked against a database which I understand already exists would be:

Difficult, if not impossible, to forge and lead to access of information which is already held somewhere anyway - in fact, if what I understand is correct, loads more data is held about you by private companies than GOV.CO.UK. Remember, Apple (and other phone manufacturers) can track your mobile phone even when switched off.

Allowing recognition of whether or not you are actually a legal resident/citizen of this country would also be good in my view

We are already one of the most highly surveillanced population in the world, no point thinking it is possible to "go off grid". That is rather like the sweet naivety of Felicity Kendal in the "Good Life"

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 11:13

Marco

03-04-2021, 11:45

Just stating my opinion.

Advantages of passive device which only contains National insurance number - which can then be checked against a database which I understand already exists would be:

Difficult, if not impossible, to forge and lead to access of information which is already held somewhere anyway - in fact, if what I understand is correct, loads more data is held about you by private companies than GOV.CO.UK. Remember, Apple (and other phone manufacturers) can track your mobile phone even when switched off.

Allowing recognition of whether or not you are actually a legal resident/citizen of this country would also be good in my view

We are already one of the most highly surveillanced population in the world, no point thinking it is possible to "go off grid". That is rather like the sweet naivety of Felicity Kendal in the "Good Life"

I don't really disagree with any of that, but you're missing the point.

Being able to go to the pub freely (and many other public venues), or perhaps in future even buying food for your family, without an appropriate 'ID card' [yes, don't dismiss it as impossible], instead of effectively treated like a leper and banned from such activities, is a far cry from 'The Good Life'!:doh:

How difficult do you think it would be with current technology, where cash is gradually being phased out, and the vast majority of payments made electronically, for your debit or credit card to be declined (or even rendered as useless) if, ID cards aside for the moment, you don't 'fit' with **whatever criteria** the authorities consider as necessary in future, in order to function in society?

THINK about it. The fact is, it could easily happen if you give the them right excuse!

Furthermore, simply because, to use your words, "We are already one of the most highly surveillanced population in the world" (although I'd be temped instead to use 'surveilled';)), doesn't mean we have to continually sit back and 'take it up the ass', so that the situation becomes even worse!

Just because something exists, doesn't make it right. Therefore, you stand up and FIGHT for what you think is right and defend that to the death, rather than just meekly sit back and say 'It's just how it is'. That sort of weak-willed, apathetic attitude, irks me beyond belief. On many occasions, history has shown that people can force change if they're determined enough!

If you've got any balls, you don't just give in to the 'powers that be' for an easy life; if you think something they're proposing is fundamentally wrong - YOU TAKE ACTION and seek to FORCE CHANGE, which trust me is *exactly* what the government will discover if they make the very grave error of introducing these certificates, and subsequently feel the wrath of the people who are against it (currently around half the population, if polls are to be believed).

Widespread protests (and likely riots and civil unrest) would almost certainly ensue, as many others and I would simply not just sit back and lose our freedoms, plus libertarians and anyone who remotely cared about human rights, who may have been in favour of having the vaccine, would also rebel. The troops are amassing.. However, we'll leave that for another day, if such a proposed abomination to our civil liberties ever sees the light of day.

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 12:28

Riots and civil unrest or throwing the bigerer brick's I wrong and what they want
It will only benefit a few stealing from the windows of their own local shop in the short term and let them to get more budget for founding more controls and besides a scared populace is much easier to rule

Side notes : Explain how pallets of bricks materialised in the streets corners of Liverpool during the silly recent unrest?

They go away whit it because people moan about things but when the time to vote came they do not bother

Side Note : when the German establishment increased fuel prices millions of drivers just left the car on the road till the increases where cancelled
Side Note : if your car is worth more than £40K after 2017 registration they slap another tax for over £300 on it and no one does a thing

There is a movie around called official secrets but no one talk about it ... did you watch it?
In 10 years time we do one about singing happy birthday and see

Marco

03-04-2021, 12:49

You Gov poll shows support for domestic vaccine passports at around 56% https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9401561/Where-vaccine-passports-used-YouGov-poll-reveals-Britons-want-IDs-place-gyms.html

This is the problem they are having. A lot of people want them and an almost equally large number don't want them. What is a politician supposed to do to court popularity?

The answer is that you say that in principle that you are in favour (thus satisfying one group) but that the decision won't be taken lightly and many factors will have to be studied before it is (thus appeasing the other group)

The ultimate aim is to kick the can down the road a bit and hope that events overtake the need to make a final decision (in this case hope infection rates drop rapidly in the meantime and the whole idea becomes moot).

I agree with your points, which are both valid and I believe reflect the current situation.

However, in terms of the bit in bold, the answer would also be not to go down in history as the PM and government who fundamentally (and likely irreversibly) changed the democratic landscape of the UK, and irreparably damaged the future of our free society.

Because I can assure you, if said certificates were introduced, that's what both BJ and this Tory government would be most remembered for, and subsequently would likely ensure that few but the most ardent of fanboys would vote for them again.. BJ seeks to be 'Mr Popular' (although mostly fails miserably), so that would be a surefire way of him becoming the opposite, especially when the narrowminded who would be for such certificates, quickly change their minds when seeing the consequences!

Thatcher was forced to abolish the hated Poll Tax (equally unjust for different reasons), after mass public protests/riots in Scotland, whose people at the time were being used as guinea pigs for a proposed UK-wide rollout of the scheme (later replaced with the Council Tax we have now), and the same will happen if Johnson is daft enough to bring in domestic vaccine certificates.

It won't be 'computer says no', but rather ultimately, THE PEOPLE say NO!;)

Marco.

guy

03-04-2021, 12:57

Furthermore, simply because, to use your words, "We are already one of the most highly surveillanced population in the world" (although I'd be temped instead to use 'surveilled';)),

Marco.

You are right on that - I knew it didn't seem right when I wrote it :o

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 12:58

Damn right, and I'll be at the front throwing the biggest ones at the most deserved targets!!;)

Let's make it clear though that "their way" would simply equate to what's right and befits the tenets of a free society. No-one's asking for any 'special favours'!

Marco.

When I mentioned "throwing bricks", I did mean actual bricks, not just firing off angry emails to anyone who can be arsed to read them. Because no way are you going to throw real bricks at the most deserved targets - no one can throw that far, not even Popeye, and he eats spinach :)

What I will be doing is shitting into a brown paper bag, leaving it on the step of Number 10, and setting fire to it, you see if I don't...

Marco

03-04-2021, 13:06

Riots and civil unrest or throwing the bigerer brick's I wrong and what they want

I'm not condoning violence or thuggish mob rule. That's wrong on every level, but rightly or wrongly, riots/violent protests will be the inevitable outcome when you start removing people's freedoms, for ANY reason. In that respect, some of the riots we've seen in our cities recently over lockdown restrictions, etc, would be the tip of the iceberg!! :trust:

Side Note : when the German establishment increased fuel prices millions of drivers just left the car on the road till the increases where cancelled

HAHAHA... Love it!! That's just the kind of stubborn 'fuck you' message to the 'powers that be' I deeply applaud :lol: The French also take no bullshit.

I just wish the British were a bit more like that and not so predisposed to forming orderly queues, or blindly obeying the authorities, because it's frightfully rude not to!;)

Marco.

Marco

03-04-2021, 13:12

When I mentioned "throwing bricks", I did mean actual bricks, not just firing off angry emails to anyone who can be arsed to read them. Because no way are you going to throw real bricks at the most deserved targets - no one can throw that far, not even Popeye, and he eats spinach :)

What I will be doing is shitting into a brown paper bag, leaving it on the step of Number 10, and setting fire to it, you see if I don't...

Lol, yes I know. Me? I'll be engaging in some peaceful (but forceful) street protests, actively encouraging others to do the same, and plans in that respect have already been put into place... Hey, it's fashionable these days to be an 'influencer';)

And trust me, I'm good at it.

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 13:13

Damn right, and I'll be at the front throwing the biggest ones at the most deserved targets!!;)

Marco.

Just occurred to me - if you're at the front, then all the lesser mortals (numpties) will all be trying their best not to hit the back of your head with their bricks. Good luck with that :) [pedant mode OFF]

Look forward to seeing it on the telly, just let me know what you're wearing and I'll look out for you :)

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 13:32

Lol, yes I know. Me? I'll be engaging in some peaceful (but forceful) street protests, actively encouraging others to do the same, and plans in that respect have already been put into place... Hey, it's fashionable these days to be an 'influencer';)

And trust me, I'm good at it.

Marco.

Round here it's more fashionable to be under the influence, and you'll have no chance, not unless you are a psychoactive drug :)

Macca

03-04-2021, 13:37

I agree with your points, which are both valid and I believe reflect the current situation.

However, in terms of the bit in bold, the answer would also be not to go down in history as the PM and government who fundamentally (and likely irreversibly) changed the democratic landscape of the UK, and irreparably damaged the future of our free society.

Because I can assure you, if said certificates were introduced, that's what both BJ and this Tory government would be most remembered for, and subsequently would ensure that few but the most ardent of fanboys would likely vote for them again.. BJ seems to seek to be 'Mr Popular' (although mostly fails miserably), so that would be the most surefire way of him becoming the opposite!

Thatcher was forced to abolish the hated Poll Tax (equally unjust for different reasons), after mass public protests/riots in Scotland, whose people at the time were being used as guinea pigs for a proposed UK-wide rollout of the scheme (later replaced with the Council Tax we have now), and the same will happen if Johnson is daft enough to bring in domestic vaccine certificates.

It won't be 'computer says no', but rather THE PEOPLE say NO!;)

Marco.

I've seen this said a few times recently but the poll tax riots did not result in the abolition of the poll tax. It was not abolished until much later.

The reason they got rid of it was because there was a sharp drop in revenue due to moving to the concept of taxing an individual rather than a property. For people who move a lot it was easy to evade, and a lot of people move a lot. Also a lot of people refused to pay. Way more than they calculated. Polls showed that it was almost (70%+) universally unpopular and most importantly it was losing them votes.

The tax was introduced in Scotland in 1989 and the rest of the UK in 1990. The riot in London tool place in March 1990. The poll tax was not abolished in any area of the UK until 1993. Three years later.

All the protests/riots did was make a mess and cost a load of money that could have been more usefully spent elsewhere (in reality it probably wouldn't have been but that's not the point).

Marco

03-04-2021, 13:54

That may be the case, but 'people power', one way or the other, through protesting on the streets or blankly refusing to pay, was the catalyst that forced change, and the grossly unjust and unfair poll tax eventually being abolished.

If everyone had just caved in and paid up, it would almost certainly have become the norm.

And people power WILL triumph again, if Johnson is daft enough to bring in domestic 'vaccine passports'. However, I'm inclined to agree with your analysis of the situation, but time will tell!

Marco.

Marco

03-04-2021, 13:57

Round here it's more fashionable to be under the influence, and you'll have no chance, not unless you are a psychoactive drug :)

I'm more into drag, darling, than drug:bum::D ;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 13:58

Always an education Martin - if you write a book I'll buy it :) See, Marco, clear and concise without resorting to text-speak :ner:

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 14:03

I'm more into drag, darling, than drug:bum::D ;)

Marco.

And you do look rather appealing when I'm under the influence :)

Marco

03-04-2021, 14:04

Always an education Martin - if you write a book I'll buy it :) See, Marco, clear and concise without resorting to text-speak :ner:

Lol, I don't use 'text speak'. Yes, clear and concise maybe, but I still stand by what I said. Read my response.

And if you keep on brown-nosing Martin (as frequently happens in these types of discussions), you'll title will change from 'Captain Cackburn' to 'Macca's bum licker'!:D;)

Marco.

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 14:26

What I will be doing is shitting into a brown paper bag, leaving it on the step of Number 10, and setting fire to it, you see if I don't...

Love it

Eat Liquorice from a couples of days before you be guarantee proper (big) and black (can I say black on this forum?) and very sticky ingredients nothing works like it I know

So any one watched official secrets ?

Any one willing to help in 10 years time when I do a similar one about singing happy birthday?

Science sez

A human being whit a darker coloured complexion suffer more from covid is that the D vitamin intake is much lower
They should have told you that vitamin D is good for you
Instead, they decided to let the media throw fuel on the fire by talking about deprivation and such
And then the very convenient riots that distracted most from the covid blunders just at the right time
Well, you see the media make much more dosh telling you the bad news and there is no money to be made out of vitamin D it is so cheap
But loads of graft spending £4 million plus telling you to sing happy birthday and that a face mask does you no good

hey do you want to see properly made riot got just the one video that if you pay attention will show one loads of things...
skip the first 4 minutes if you like but do watch around 6:51 9:01 and 9:17 minutes in
Dakh Daughters Band euromaidan 2013 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VowNgMWcubA)

Filterlab

03-04-2021, 14:26

...make a mess and cost a load of money that could have been more usefully spent elsewhere...

Funny, that's the exact sentence I use the describe the daily behaviour of the current bunch of twonks in the government.

:D

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 14:56

Lol, I don't use 'text speak'. Yes, clear and concise maybe, but I still stand by what I said. Read my response.

And if you keep on brown-nosing Martin (as frequently happens in these types of discussions), you'll title will change from 'Captain Cackburn' to 'Macca's bum licker'!:D;)

Marco.

I've licked worse. It's rather like Twyford's Vitreous China, with stripes. Maybe a hangover from the Staffordshire Potteries days.

Anyway, my previous post wasn't clear, I meant Macca wasn't resorting to text-speak. There hasn't been a phone screen invented that could accommodate your attempts at text-speak :D

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 15:01

And if you keep on brown-nosing Martin (as frequently happens in these types of discussions

Marco.

When did it last happen? Yours and my definition of "frequent" are quite different, remember :ner:

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 15:07

(can I say black on this forum?)

Yes Sandro, you can say black, but you can't say 'manage', as it implies that women can't cope. I kid you not (oops, I'm not allowed to say 'kid', the correct term is 'annoying miniature person' ;)

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 15:42

Cool but then you are going to de to inclusive, Midgets (can I say Midgets) can also be annoying miniature persons and discriminate in this case is most warranted.

And please do not pick on women

Besides I do like women a lot and at times I think of myself as a lesbian only thing that ever stopped me from getting the snip and a couple of bubbies is that I be playing whit that kind of apparatus for hours and hours and hours and then I get nothing done so then I will also have to spread the impression that I can not cope

While now whit whatever I got, not much maybe, 30 seconds top then loose all interest and I can get on whit things You see they may give you the impression that they do not cope the truth be they be to busy whit .... things

Bksabath

03-04-2021, 15:44

PS Can one post post like the post above this post in this forum
I am clearly joking

Marco

03-04-2021, 15:52

I've licked worse. It's rather like Twyford's Vitreous China, with stripes. Maybe a hangover from the Staffordshire Potteries days.

Anyway, my previous post wasn't clear, I meant Macca wasn't resorting to text-speak. There hasn't been a phone screen invented that could accommodate your attempts at text-speak :D

Well, has anything I've written today been unclear to you? If so, show me.

Martin writes clearly and expresses himself well, but for me not any more so than many others or I do. Sometimes I just write longer posts, if I have lots to say on a subject I'm passionate about. Therefore, if you have the attention span of Wisconsin wombat [delicious pan-fried with a little garlic, btw], then I guess you could lose track!:ner:;)

As for my attempts at text speak, there hasn't been a smartphone invented yet that I'd want to use to send such! Not that such a soulless, unrewarding and rather dimwitted way of communicating would ever darken my days in the first place!!:D

Marco [hasn't sent any texts to anyone in about 10 years].

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 15:54

Clearly :) it's a complicated world and no mistake

Marco

03-04-2021, 15:55

When did it last happen? Yours and my definition of "frequent" are quite different, remember :ner:

Almost as frequently as you press out unfeasibly solid and unyielding 'caramel logs':D

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 16:08

Well, has anything I've written today been unclear to you? If so, show me.

Martin writes clearly and expresses himself well, but for me not any more so than many others or I do. Sometimes I just write longer posts, if I have lots to say on a subject I'm passionate about. Therefore, if you have the attention span of Wisconsin wombat [delicious pan-fried with a little garlic, btw], then I guess you could lose track!:ner:;)

As for my attempts at text speak, there hasn't been a smartphone invented yet that I'd want to use to send such! Not that such a soulless, unrewarding and rather dimwitted way of communicating would ever darken my days in the first place!!:D

Marco [hasn't sent any texts in about 10 years].

Well, has anything I said implied that anything you've written today has been unclear to me? If so, show me :D My comments about Macca's concise posts are there purely to wind you up, which I know you so love :)

Paragraph 3 is a new one, I didn't know you felt that way about smartphones, you've never mentioned it before :doh:

I see you have edited your last line, I was about to pull you up on that one :D

Pigmy Pony

03-04-2021, 16:16

Almost as frequently as you press out unfeasibly solid and unyielding 'caramel logs':D

Marco.

So twice daily then. Seems a lot, but I reckon this log cabin will take about four years to build...

walpurgis

03-04-2021, 16:24

So twice daily then. Seems a lot, but I reckon this log cabin will take about four years to build...

The planning application must have made for interesting reading.

Marco

03-04-2021, 17:08

Well, has anything I said implied that anything you've written today has been unclear to me? If so, show me :D My comments about Macca's concise posts are there purely to wind you up, which I know you so love :)

Indeed so. My days are painfully unfulfilled in its absence.

Paragraph 3 is a new one, I didn't know you felt that way about smartphones, you've never mentioned it before :doh:

What? That I dislike, bordering on despising, everything that smartphones stand for? Surely not? If so, then you definitely *haven't* been paying attention!:nono::D

I abhor pretty much everything to do with the current 'smartphone culture', and living in a soulless virtual world, and texting is part of that.

Other than on here, if I've got something to say to someone, I send them a properly written email, or I lift up my landline phone, blissfully in the knowledge that the signal won't drop out, and TALK to them. Remember that speaking stuff? It's what God gave us tongues for [well, yes *that*, too!:eyebrows:]

I see you have edited your last line, I was about to pull you up on that one :D

Not sure which edit you're referring to. Perhaps you could remind me?:)

Marco.

struth

03-04-2021, 17:15

phones have their place, but shouldn't be your life. i use one as they are handy but im not on it all day...oh, no, im on my laptop :ner:

bigger screen;)

Marco

03-04-2021, 17:32

phones have their place, but shouldn't be your life. i use one as they are handy but im not on it all day...oh, no, im on my laptop :ner:

bigger screen;)

Exactly so, mate, with particular emphasis on the latter!

And yes, some things are worthy of admiring on a bigger screen, eh?:D;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

04-04-2021, 05:32

What? That I dislike, bordering on despising, everything that smartphones stand for? Surely not? If so, then you definitely *haven't* been paying attention!:nono::D

I abhor pretty much everything to do with the current 'smartphone culture', and living in a soulless virtual world, and texting is part of that.

Other than on here, if I've got something to say to someone, I send them a properly written email, or I lift up my landline phone, blissfully in the knowledge that the signal won't drop out, and TALK to them. Remember that speaking stuff? It's what God gave us tongues for [well, yes *that*, too!:eyebrows:]

Marco.

:lol: Oh dear, if you failed to spot the sarcasm in my comment about your views on smartphones and genuinely think that your abhorrence is news to me,
then clearly I'm paying more attention to your posts than you :ner: My old grandad used to be the same, say something, forget he said it, so said it again. A lot. Comes to most of us at some point, for some sooner than for others :wheniwasaboy:

Oh, and:
Marco [has sent a text in about 10 years]. Really no big deal, I often proof read my posts after I've sent them :) A bigger deal is forgetting you've done it, so soon afterwards. But it's ok, I've been like that for decades (have I mentioned that before?) :)

Marco

04-04-2021, 07:33

:lol: Oh dear, if you failed to spot the sarcasm in my comment about your views on smartphones and genuinely think that your abhorrence is news to me,

Well, there weren't any notable smilies to indicate otherwise, so I just took the view it was you suffering once again from ASDS (Attention Span Deficiency Syndrome)!:D

I'm literally just out my bed, so that could be why this makes no sense to me, in terms of what it's got to do with texting:

Oh, and:
Marco [has sent a text in about 10 years]. Really no big deal, I often proof read my posts after I've sent them :) A bigger deal is forgetting you've done it, so soon afterwards. But it's ok, I've been like that for decades (have I mentioned that before?) :)

:hmm:

Any clues? I.E the connection between proof-reading and texts... You're starting to get good at riddles!

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2021, 07:36

More importantly... https://mailchi.mp/bigbrotherwatch/last-chance-to-take-action-6495544?e=9509ffdbfa

Keep up the good work, Silkie! :clap::clap:

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

04-04-2021, 07:51

Well, there weren't any notable smilies to indicate otherwise, so I just took the view it was you suffering once again from ASDS (Attention Span Deficiency Syndrome)!:D

I'm literally just out my bed, so that could be why this makes no sense to me, in terms of what it's got to do with texting:

:hmm:

Any clues? I.E the connection between proof-reading and texts... You're starting to get good at riddles!

Marco.

:eek: This post is incorrect in so many ways I can't begin to make it right... I'm not attempting riddles, and the problem is not my ASDS, but your cack memory :D

Perhaps you could get help by attending a "Memory Clinic" - I drove past one recently, but I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it. If it comes to me I'll let you know. Though by then I expect you will have forgotten that we had this conversation, and try to convince me and yourself that it didn't happen :)

Marco

04-04-2021, 07:56

Cack memory about what? Remind me:)

Pun intended!:D

But seriously, do you think I pay attention to every single piece of daftness your write, daftee? I've got a busy forum to run (including a demanding princess to look after), and am doing umpteen things at the one time. so you'll have to do better than drop in some vague reference to something you said 3 days ago, or whatever, and expect me to know what you're twittering on about!!:ner:

The last time it was something you'd said to Guy and expected me to have read it... Soz, dude, don;'t have time to scrutinise your every syllable.

Marco.

walpurgis

04-04-2021, 08:02

Perhaps you could get help by attending a "Memory Clinic"

Your mention of getting help reminded me. I have a fear of taps, but I also have a handwashing compulsion. Inevitably, I spend a lot of time standing in front of sinks. Do you have any suggestions?

Macca

04-04-2021, 08:13

Turn a problem into a solution by getting a job as a cloakroom attendant.

Pigmy Pony

04-04-2021, 08:29

Cack memory about what? Remind me:)

Pun intended!:D

But seriously, do you think I pay attention to every single piece of daftness your write, daftee? I've got a busy forum to run, and am doing umpteen things at the one time. so you'll have to do better than drop in some vague reference to something you said 3 days ago, or whatever, and expect me to know what you're twittering on about!!:ner:

The last time it was something you'd said to Guy and expected me to have read it... Soz, dude, don;'t have time to scrutinise your every syllable.

Marco.

Definitely not, but I would expect you to pay attention to your own words, which is what I'm bangin' on about. And it was yesterday, not 3 days ago :doh: I appreciate you're a busy busy bee dude, (unlike me who does bugger all every day), so I don't expect (or need) you to read my every post, nor scrutinise my every syllable. :nono:

Anyway, enough of this nonsense, I'm off to read your next (more important) post - about your big brother's new watch or something :)

One more thing - I see BJ is trialling some "Covid certification" gubbins in the coming weeks, at some football matches and a couple of other events - so you could be right. But don't ask me to link to it, you know I can't do that stuff :(

Marco

04-04-2021, 08:40

Definitely not, but I would expect you to pay attention to your own words, which is what I'm bangin' on about. And it was yesterday, not 3 days ago :doh:

Ok, so perhaps you could just TELL me what you're referring to (as I still haven't a clue), instead of dancing around the dishes?

And most importantly, how it ties in with what you were on about earlier (proof reading and texts)?

It's all very well me remembering what I've written (and I do), but quite another thing fathoming (in your often cryptic way of expressing yourself - you admitted yesterday that something you'd written was unclear, and it's not an uncommon occurrence) how you've chosen to recycle it into a joke!:D

One more thing - I see BJ is trialling some "Covid certification" gubbins in the coming weeks, at some football matches and a couple of other events - so you could be right. But don't ask me to link to it, you know I can't do that stuff :(

Well, when it comes to that pish I don't want to be right. Let's hope it's as 'successful' as his Test and Trace scheme was.

Marco.

struth

04-04-2021, 08:45

your mention of getting help reminded me. I have a fear of taps, but i also have a handwashing compulsion. Inevitably, i spend a lot of time standing in front of sinks. Do you have any suggestions?

install a well?

Filterlab

04-04-2021, 08:50

Let's hope it's as 'successful' as his Test and Trace scheme was.

Marco.

I foresee that everything BJ does will be as "successful" as T&T, so we'll probably all be fine. :D

walpurgis

04-04-2021, 08:51

install a well?

People don't dig wells these days.

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 08:52

More importantly... https://mailchi.mp/bigbrotherwatch/last-chance-to-take-action-6495544?e=9509ffdbfa

Keep up the good work, Silkie! :clap::clap:

Marco.

Explain to me what's wrong with having a Covid certificate or passport? you need a passport to travel anywhere outside of the UK, letting people know you have been immunized makes total sense to me. The pandemic across the world has taken a grip and the longer we fanny about getting vaccinated the more chance there is of it mutating again, if having a stamp or something in my passport lets the officials at other countries know that i can't catch covid and in turn allows me greater freedom to move about then what's the problem.

Filterlab

04-04-2021, 08:54

I think you need to read the last two pages of this thread. :)

It's not the indication in one's passport for overseas travel that's the problem.

struth

04-04-2021, 08:55

Explain to me what's wrong with having a Covid certificate or passport? you need a passport to travel anywhere outside of the UK, letting people know you have been immunized makes total sense to me. The pandemic across the world has taken a grip and the longer we fanny about getting vaccinated the more chance there is of it mutating again, if having a stamp or something in my passport lets the officials at other countries know that i can't catch covid and in turn allows me greater freedom to move about then what's the problem.

think it was a requirement to have one to go to the pub, or maybe into a shop that was the issue not going abroad etc.

struth

04-04-2021, 09:05

People don't dig wells these days.

http://www.welldrilling-uk.co.uk/well-drilling-uk.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwx6WDBhBQEiwA_dP8rXTQthmqJk2h 5k67-B2yhB5mY5ochOodpcMV2ZE_lRND9qlG2k6qnBoCphgQAvD_BwE
:eyebrows:
always wanted my own well

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 09:06

think it was a requirement to have one to go to the pub, or maybe into a shop that was the issue not going abroad etc.

Even for that Grant, it's us that move it around it doesn't have legs and if making sure that people that are out at the shops or in a pub can't bring it in and potentially infect the whole place and then take it home with them then i'm all for it. I've had my 1st jab because i'm type 1 diabetic, if having a passport means i can get back to normality quicker and at the same time slow down the spread of this terrible disease then again what's the problem?

Marco

04-04-2021, 09:11

What's the problem? Haven't you been reading the thread?:rolleyes:

I suggest you do, and you'll discover exactly what I and thousands of others have against it. You need to think of the potential long-term effects of these things, not just the here and now. And also not just rather selfishly what's best for YOU.

Out of free choice, I've chosen not to be vaccinated, the same as you have to be so, therefore why should my free choice result in restrictions to my freedoms? It should result in the same consequences as yours, otherwise what was the point in making the vaccine non-mandatory?

Or perhaps it was never a free choice in the first place...

Did you also agree with the smoking ban?

Marco.

Macca

04-04-2021, 09:17

Even for that Grant, it's us that move it around it doesn't have legs and if making sure that people that are out at the shops or in a pub can't bring it in and potentially infect the whole place and then take it home with them then i'm all for it. I've had my 1st jab because i'm type 1 diabetic, if having a passport means i can get back to normality quicker and at the same time slow down the spread of this terrible disease then again what's the problem?

It's unnecessarily draconian?

Also I don't understand the logic with it. It assumes that having the vaccine vastly reduces the chances of either infecting someone else or catching it. So the idea of vaccine passport to go in the pub etc makes some sense prima face. But there's a problem with that:

If everyone is allowed to go to the pub regardless of whether they have had the vaccine or not, then in theory only those who have not had the vaccine are in danger of infection. Which is their problem
only. Hence the passport is pointless.

On the other hand if the vaccine does not substantially reduce the risk of catching or infecting others then you can still infect vaccinated people (or catch it from them) even if you have been vaccinated. So in that scenario the passport is also pointless.

Marco

04-04-2021, 09:22

It's unnecessarily draconian?

Also I don't understand the logic with it. It assumes that having the vaccine vastly reduces the chances of either infecting someone else or catching it. So the idea of vaccine passport to go in the pub etc makes some sense prima face. But there's a problem with that:

If everyone is allowed to go to the pub regardless of whether they have had the vaccine or not, then in theory only those who have not had the vaccine are in danger of infection. Which is their problem
only. Hence the passport is pointless.

On the other hand if the vaccine does not substantially reduce the risk of catching or infecting others then you can still infect vaccinated people (or catch it from them) even if you have been vaccinated. So in that scenario the passport is also pointless.

Exactly! All valid points Mike has conveniently chosen to miss, the most pertinent of which is that it's utterly draconian and incompatible with a free society.

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

04-04-2021, 09:27

It's unnecessarily draconian?

Also I don't understand the logic with it. It assumes that having the vaccine vastly reduces the chances of either infecting someone else or catching it. So the idea of vaccine passport to go in the pub etc makes some sense prima face. But there's a problem with that:

If everyone is allowed to go to the pub regardless of whether they have had the vaccine or not, then in theory only those who have not had the vaccine are in danger of infection. Which is their problem
only. Hence the passport is pointless.

On the other hand if the vaccine does not substantially reduce the risk of catching or infecting others then you can still infect vaccinated people (or catch it from them) even if you have been vaccinated. So in that scenario the passport is also pointless.

At the risk of upsetting Marco, well said that man! Clear, concise, calm, non-confrontational and perfectly logical :)

Marco

04-04-2021, 09:34

More brown-noising!:ner::lol:

Your title will be getting changed later..;)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

04-04-2021, 09:42

More brown-noising!:ner::lol:

Your title will be getting changed later..;)

Marco.

Hey, if I was a female lady of the opposite sex, I'd want to have his babies, and they would all be going to university :) And if that makes me "Captain Maccbum", so be it :eyebrows:

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 10:07

The only problem i see with a passport is that folks who haven't been immunised will be discriminated against, so you could only bring something like this into force once the whole population had been offered a jab, once that's done then it only leaves the conspiracy theorists at risk, so to be clear i'm not against these controls if it gets things back to normal quicker, however it wouldn't be fare to bring something like this into force before the whole population has been offered a jab and once we get to that point this level of state control becomes redundant.

In addition the logistics involved in giving everyone who has been vaccinated a "green card" which couldn't be forged would be a nightmare and would take many months if not years to complete.

So to sum up, people who don't want to have the jab are concerned that they are being backed into a corner and are rattling their sabres and screaming foul, people who have had the jab don't give a toss, but if it gets things open quicker then it can't be bad, that leaves the people who want the jab but haven't had it yet, they will probably not want this sort of legislation up until the time that they are immunised. I honestly cant see it being made law simply because in the short term it would infringe on too many peoples rights who haven't been vaccinated yet and once everyone has it won't be needed, but you conspiracy theorists please keep seeing stuff that isn't there, it's fun and interesting to read.

Macca

04-04-2021, 10:19

Marco

04-04-2021, 10:19

The only problem i see with a passport is that folks who haven't been immunised will be discriminated against, so you could only bring something like this into force once the whole population had been offered a jab, once that's done then it only leaves the conspiracy theorists at risk, so to be clear i'm not against these controls if it gets things back to normal quicker, however it wouldn't be fare to bring something like this into force before the whole population has been offered a jab and once we get to that point this level of state control becomes redundant.

How so? :scratch:

I won't be getting vaccinated anytime soon, so if these passports become a reality, then I'll be precluded from going to places you're allowed into (and who knows what else in future), simply because my free choice was different, so how is that fair, non-discriminatory or not the result of the increase of state control??

The fact is, the "problem" you state in your first sentence is a BIG one for both those in my position and countless thousands of others who are dead against such draconian measures, and being subject to authoritarian control, and if introduced we WON'T just be sitting back and taking it! No fucking chance..

Please also answer my question: were you in favour of the smoking ban or not? Because it has a direct relationship, in terms of being an infringement of human rights, with what the government are proposing now.

Marco.

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 10:31

How so? :scratch:

I won't be getting vaccinated anytime soon, so if these passports become a reality, then I'll be precluded from going to places you're allowed into (and who knows what else in future), simply because you've been vaccinated, so how is that fair, non-discriminatory or not the result of the increase of state control??

The fact is, the "problem" you state in your first sentence is a BIG one for both those in my position and countless thousands of others who are dead against such draconian measures, and being subject to authoritarian control, and if introduced we WON'T just be sitting back and taking it! No fucking chance..

Please also answer my question: were you in favour of the smoking ban or not? Because it has a direct relationship, in terms of being an infringement of human rights, with what the government are proposing now.

Marco.

The reason the passport would become redundant would be that once everyone has been offered a jab we can all get back to normal only the people that didn't want it will be able to catch the disease, so they take their chances

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 10:35

Regarding a smoking ban, i've never smoked so walking into a smoke filled room so i can have a pint doesn't appeal to me, but i think things are ok as they are and any further restrictions on smoking aren't needed

Marco

04-04-2021, 10:46

The reason the passport would become redundant would be that once everyone has been offered a jab we can all get back to normal only the people that didn't want it will be able to catch the disease, so they take their chances

I'm sorry, but none of that seems to tie in with what you said before. There's been no talk so far I know of about said passports becoming redundant - and if introduced and they don't, then there will indeed be a problem for the non-vaccinated. That's the point.

The fact is, they shouldn't be introduced in the first place, so whether they become redundant or not in future is moot.

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2021, 10:49

I see they are now saying it will not be applicable to shops, pubs and restaurants, only to nightclubs, sporting events and 'mass gatherings'.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/boris-johnson-to-set-out-plan-for-covid-status-certification-scheme/ar-BB1fhnpa?ocid=msedgdhp

Still just being kicked around though, isn't it?

If that's the case it would be *marginally* more acceptable, but I'm still fundamentally against the whole thing in principle, for reasons stated. I'm just uncomfortable with the precedent it could set.

Marco.

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 11:00

I'm sorry, but none of that seems to tie in with what you said before. There's been no talk so far I know of about said passports becoming redundant - and if introduced and they don't, then there will indeed be a problem for the non-vaccinated. That's the point.

The fact is, they shouldn't be introduced in the first place, so whether they become redundant or not in future is moot.

Marco.

My point is although i'm not against a passport coz i've had the jab, they can't bring it into force at all coz of the people that haven't been offered it yet and once everyone has been offered then the passport becomes redundant

Marco

04-04-2021, 11:07

mad-moon

04-04-2021, 11:07

The reason the passport would become redundant would be that once everyone has been offered a jab we can all get back to normal only the people that didn't want it will be able to catch the disease, so they take their chances

Not strictly true ... you could still contract covid-19 from an infected person(s), even if vaccinated. However, being vaccinated, will make it a lot less likely that you will die. Anyone who hasn't had a vaccine, be it by choice or for medical reasons, is more likely to become severely ill and/or die from the virus...allegedly

Macca

04-04-2021, 11:16

Still just being kicked around though, isn't it?

If that's the case it would be *marginally* more acceptable, but I'm still fundamentally against the whole thing in principle, for reasons stated. I'm just uncomfortable with the precedent it could set.

Marco.

Seems to be that the earliest it could be implemented would be sometime in the Autumn. Which is a long way off.

There's already precedent for far more draconian legislation - world war II for example. And others no-one ever thinks about - up until 1979 you couldn't tale more than fifty quid in cash out of the country. Even now if you are carrying more than 10 grand you are supposed to declare it.

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 11:19

It would only be redundant in principle, based on your take on matters. Who's to say that they (the government) wouldn't make them permanent, simply as a 'belt & braces' approach to controlling Covid, thus the 'new norm' and part of how society functions in future?

Marco.

My point is that even though i'm not against it, once everyone has been offered a jab the passport to enter pubs and shops in this country becomes a none starter

Marco

04-04-2021, 11:41

My point is that even though i'm not against it, once everyone has been offered a jab the passport to enter pubs and shops in this country becomes a none starter

Possibly.. Anyway, hopefully your initial question:

Explain to me what's wrong with having a Covid certificate or passport?

...has now been answered;)

You have to understand that certain people, more than others, abhor being controlled or dictated to, in ANY shape or form or by ANYONE, as they're simply not used to it in their daily lives - often the polar opposite - and being able to do what *they* want, WHEN they want ('free spirits'), and therefore any proposals such as this, which threaten to 'clip their wings', as is were, is going to rankle in the extreme.

And I count myself in on that!:)

The ONLY person who gets to 'boss' me about is my wife [when I let her]:D

Marco.

Jac Hawk

04-04-2021, 12:38

Possibly.. Anyway, hopefully your initial question:

...has now been answered;)

You have to understand that certain people, more than others, abhor being controlled or dictated to, in ANY shape or form or by ANYONE, as they're simply not used to it in their daily lives - often the polar opposite - and being able to do what *they* want, WHEN they want ('free spirits'), and therefore any proposals such as this, which threaten to 'clip their wings', as is were, is going to rankle in the extreme.

And I count myself in on that!:)

The ONLY person who gets to 'boss' me about is my wife [when I let her]:D

Marco.

But if we had no rules then we would live in anarchy, what you're doing is taking an idea (which in my view is a non starter) and presuming that the extra restrictions would remain once the pandemic was over, rules that would inhibit you more than others because you don't want to take the jab, as i've said i'm not against an internal passport but again in my view it's a non starter. We don't live in a police state, we live in a democracy which means we get to vote on who runs the country, laws and restrictions only stay in place as long as we allow them as we can vote out a ruling party, until that changes then the majority rules, look at Brexit, in my view the UK took the wrong decision but the country decided and we have left.

Filterlab

04-04-2021, 14:24

Firebottle

04-04-2021, 14:58

^^^^

Thank goodness.
Who the hell is/was supposed to control entry/being denied access? Total non starter in my book.

Filterlab

04-04-2021, 15:08

Not the landlord of a pub, that's for sure. He got a year's earnings to make up!

Bksabath

04-04-2021, 17:44

But if we had no rules then we would live in anarchy, what you're doing is taking an idea (which in my view is a non starter) and presuming that the extra restrictions would remain once the pandemic was over, rules that would inhibit you more than others because you don't want to take the jab, as i've said i'm not against an internal passport but again in my view it's a non starter. We don't live in a police state, we live in a democracy which means we get to vote on who runs the country, laws and restrictions only stay in place as long as we allow them as we can vote out a ruling party, until that changes then the majority rules, look at Brexit, in my view the UK took the wrong decision but the country decided and we have left.

It looks like we have more or less the same ideas thing is when is time to vote most of the people that complain about the establishment are also the ones that can not be bother to vote
And then for who you vote for ? they are all the same

A 5 to 10 years mandatory prison sentence should be imposed on any one that during it's time in public office commit a crime on top of any charges that may apply

Mr Blair should be sent to the Hague for starters and then ask Boris ex wife if you should really trust him

I used to agree whit you about Brexit as I see it as an excuse to put up prices and taxes but after seeing what is happening in Europe I am glad we did.

But it all boils down to making the wellbeing of the population a political issue, it should not be so.

We are going to vote here in Liverpool on the 6th I can't wait to see how many will turn up

Marco

04-04-2021, 18:45

Apologies for the tardy reply, but it's Easter Sunday, and a beautiful day here, so had my dad round for lunch. Plus as it's the end of Lent (us Catholics give up something we enjoy for six weeks, which for us was all forms of alcohol), it was a rather boozy one to make up for lost time!:drunk::D

But if we had no rules then we would live in anarchy, what you're doing is taking an idea (which in my view is a non starter) and presuming that the extra restrictions would remain once the pandemic was over, rules that would inhibit you more than others because you don't want to take the jab, as i've said i'm not against an internal passport but again in my view it's a non starter. We don't live in a police state, we live in a democracy which means we get to vote on who runs the country, laws and restrictions only stay in place as long as we allow them as we can vote out a ruling party, until that changes then the majority rules, look at Brexit, in my view the UK took the wrong decision but the country decided and we have left.

We're broadly in agreement, certainly on the first bit (highlighted)!

However, too many people (and I'm thinking here of the general public, not anyone on this forum) are too predisposed to being subservient to authority, and will just automatically comply with whatever rules governments come up with, without questioning, or even more importantly *challenging* them.

The will to acquiesce is simply too great, so whilst I agree that rules are most certainly needed for a civilised society, we should be far choosier about what WE allow them to become (essentially what equates to the law), as quite simply, sheep-like behaviour is detrimental to democracy. You have to curb the natural desire for authorities to impose control - that is if ultimately you care about your freedom - not simply bend to their will for the sake of a quiet life:doh::rolleyes:

Then you'll certainly get what you deserve!

Therefore, I don't know about you, but if someone tells me to jump, my first response most certainly isn't to say 'How high?' (as it would for feckless sheep), but rather to ask WHY am I jumping??

Then, if I've been given a good enough answer, and I consider the request as justified (based on MY judgement criteria, no-one else's), I'll 'jump', but NOT before! And that applies to freedom-destroying fascist bullshit, such as the proposed introduction of these 'Covid certificates'.

Unfortunately, too many of the general public fall into the former category, which unfortunately leaves us wide open to being manipulated and controlled - and it's dangerous, certainly if you value your liberty. Our population needs more FREE-THINKERS (less 'robots'), and people unwilling to be quite so keen to say 'yes' to authorities, with little thought about the possible consequences!

Always think long term, and try to see the bigger picture in these matters, rather than making an ill-considered knee jerk reaction the solution to a problem, simply to temporarily alleviate it [such was your justification for vaccine certificates, as in your opinion it would get things back to normal quicker...But is quicker BETTER, and at WHAT cost?] as often our daftest decisions in life, and the ones we later most regret, were those made in haste...

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2021, 19:26

In the Metro today...

Mr Johnson has scrapped the plan of making punters show proof before entering hospitality businesses, following uproar from the industry and a significant number of Tory MPs. It has also been decided that certification will not need to be shown when entering shops and on public transport.

From here: https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/04/covid-passports-wont-be-needed-for-a-pint-at-the-pub-14355540/

Considering what was being proposed, no wonder there was a fucking uproar!!

It just shows the true colours of the lying arse. Ask yourself if that is the behaviour of an easy-going libertarian? The image he chose to portray before he was elected. So to those who voted Tory at the last election, and who value their freedoms, just think about the type of character you've allowed to govern the country...:doh:

The uproar was totally justified, and I was rather shocked and surprised when it wasn't replicated by the reaction of some folks here [you know who you are] to the news of the proposed introduction of these bloody certificates. It's not just about 'I'm all right, Jack' - you have to consider how such decisions impact on others and society as a whole.

So thank goodness for vociferous publicans and Tory MPs refusing to sign up to BJ's creeping authoritarian agenda.

Well done. There's hope for democracy yet!

:clapclapclap:

Marco.

mad-moon

05-04-2021, 14:02

Considering what was being proposed, no wonder there was a fucking uproar!!

It just shows the true colours of the lying arse. Ask yourself if that is the behaviour of an easy-going libertarian? The image he chose to portray before he was elected. So to those who voted Tory at the last election, and who value their freedoms, just think about the type of character you've allowed to govern the country...:doh:

The uproar was totally justified, and I was rather shocked and surprised when it wasn't replicated by the reaction of some folks here [you know who you are] to the news of the proposed introduction of these bloody certificates. It's not just about 'I'm all right, Jack' - you have to consider how such decisions impact on others and society as a whole.

So thank goodness for vociferous publicans and Tory MPs refusing to sign up to BJ's creeping authoritarian agenda.

Well done. There's hope for democracy yet!

:clapclapclap:

Marco.

I get where you are coming from Marco..However, it makes no difference who gets into power as history has proven...They promise you the earth, then when you ask for it, they tell you to fuck off...

Marco

05-04-2021, 17:13

Sure, Alan, but there's a difference between broken promises, which we all expect from politicians, and outright disingenuousness.

Marco.

Pierre De Grenoble

05-04-2021, 18:55

Sure, Alan, but there's a difference between broken promises, which we all expect from politicians, and outright disingenuousness.

Marco.
you know IMHO its only been in the last 10 years or so when politicians in the UK have begun to think that it's OK to deliberately lie. (and it blossomed when trump was president) it's not OK. I expect evasiveness, passing the buck or dodging a question. I don't expect an outright lie.

As a payed up labour member I despised Corbyn but you know I never ever watched him lie in an interview. The prick would endure a car crash interview but never lied or went against his principles to get out of the hole he was digging the labour party into.

not something you could ever say about Billy Boris.. :wanker:

struth

05-04-2021, 19:04

True. But bojo doesn't see it as lying. Just his kind of normal.

And that is what is sad about it

mad-moon

05-04-2021, 21:04

Boris is not the clown he makes himself out to be...

Pierre De Grenoble

05-04-2021, 22:01

Boris is not the clown he makes himself out to be...

I don't give the proverbial about what he perceives himself to be. I get outraged because he's a lying twat who thinks he can get away with it.

and if you don't already know it, twat is older english for cunt.

mad-moon

06-04-2021, 00:08

I don't give the proverbial about what he perceives himself to be. I get outraged because he's a lying twat who thinks he can get away with it.

and if you don't already know it, twat is older english for cunt.

That is the point I'm making....he knows exactly what he is saying/doing..

Macca

06-04-2021, 06:05

you know IMHO its only been in the last 10 years or so when politicians in the UK have begun to think that it's OK to deliberately lie. (and it blossomed when trump was president) it's not OK. I expect evasiveness, passing the buck or dodging a question. I don't expect an outright lie.

As a payed up labour member I despised Corbyn but you know I never ever watched him lie in an interview. The prick would endure a car crash interview but never lied or went against his principles to get out of the hole he was digging the labour party into.

not something you could ever say about Billy Boris.. :wanker:

I love the idea that politicians never told lies prior to 2011, You can't seriously think that?

Off the top of my head I can recall Corbyn lying at least once, remember the anti-Semitic mural which he endorsed, then later claimed that he hadn't noticed that it was anti-Semitic? Yeah right.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitic-mural-mear-one-luciana-berger-east-end-a8271111.html

Marco

06-04-2021, 06:43

That is the point I'm making....he knows exactly what he is saying/doing..

Yes, it's easy to be an outright cunt, and care not a jot, if you want. That's not the point.

My point is why say/do things that appear to be incompatible with your supposedly true self, which (apparently), in terms of covert fascist BJ-boy, is that of a libertarian? That was certainly the image he portrayed throughout his political life until now.

You only do that if you're a two-faced disingenuous bastard, which of course he is. A genuine person stays true to himself and his core values, and that defo ain't the bigoted covert fascist we're discussing!

Marco [utterly DESPISES, beyond words, disingenuous two-faced bastards, and of course bigoted fascists, covert or otherwise].

Macca

06-04-2021, 07:10

Firebottle

06-04-2021, 07:18

I think the whole, hideous politically correct/ 'woke' agenda is far closer to fascism,

:clap:

guy

06-04-2021, 07:40

Marco

06-04-2021, 08:13

So something that never happened and isn't going to happen but it's 'fascism'.

The problem with that word is that it has been used wrongly so often it's lost all meaning. Or rather the new meaning is 'someone who doesn't agree with me.'

I think the whole, hideous politically correct/ 'woke' agenda is far closer to fascism, and the Labour Party is inextricably bound up with that which is why I would never vote for them even though I agree with some of their ideas like re-nationalising water, power and rail.

I am not sure that Johnson has ever identified himself as a libertarian which is a very specific political ideology. He has always been a pragmatist in the true British tradition. That's one of the reasons I voted for him. God spare us from the idealists.

Well, I totally agree with you about the politically correct woke pish (with bells on)! Can't stand those greetin' wee shites!:guns:

However, if these 'Covid ID cards/vaccine certificates' *do* come into force (in some form or another), and I'm not convinced yet that they won't, or worse, are rolled out into other areas in future, then for me that WILL BE a form of fascist/totalitarian control (and if introduced only likely to get worse), which certainly isn't compatible with a) what the Tories supposedly stand for, or b) a democratic free country such as the UK.

Johnson may like to think he's a pragmatist, but until now also portrayed the image of laidback, easy-going hippy-type (albeit a toffee-nosed one), and which certainly doesn't fit with the authoritarian measures he's sought (or still seeking) to implement, in terms of the aforementioned ID cards, and with it the restricting of our freedoms.

And I'm afraid that anyone who seeks to remove people's freedoms (if it happens), completely unjustifiably in this instance, is the enemy of pro-civil liberties/human rights protagonists, such as others and me.

One thing's for sure, as much maligned as Corbyn was (some of it justified and some not), and who is a libertarian, if he had made it into Downing Street instead of BJ-boy, then 'ID cards' and other such affronts to our human rights would never even have been discussed!!

Marco.