View Full Version : Johns Hopkins Medical Centre - World Coronavirus infection Map by Country.
AJSki2fly
15-09-2020, 10:34
No-one is ignoring that, it just isn't relevant unless you are arguing that a vaccine is impossible. 'Flu is a covid virus and we have vaccines for that, they just have to keep up with the mutations.
If a vaccine is impossible then, barring a mutation into a less harmful form, herd immunity is still the only solution.
Which type of SARS-CoV-2 would you like to develop herd immunity for or a vaccine, I believe there are at least 4 types already identified by scientists/microbiologists, and possibly more, that is each type having its own specific sequence. Several scientists are considering mutation and investigating that.
"Early in the outbreak, two strains appear to have been in circulation at roughly at the same time – strain A and strain B – with a C variant later developing from strain B." from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/could-covid-19-be-manmade-what-we-know-about-origins-trump-chinese-lab-coronavirus, there are other articles that report the same, some being scientific reports.
This is an excellent analysis of the data and is up to date as of 8th September.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=8UvFhIFzaac&feature=emb_logo
Based on this I've re-assessed my previous position that this is more serious then swine flu, or any previous epidemic as it clearly isn't.
And continuing social distancing, compulsory mask-wearing, banning large gatherings etc is not only damaging the economy but is completely pointless.
Worth watching the whole presentation.
I'll watch it over lunch... However, what you've just said is nothing I didn't already know (or strongly suspect)!;)
So I repeat... What INDISPUTABLE FACTS, based on the above analysis, justify the current panic-inducing and fear mongering practiced by the government and media?
Marco.
I'll watch it over lunch... However, what you've just said is nothing I didn't already know (or strongly suspect)!;)
So I repeat... What INDISPUTABLE FACTS, based on the above analysis, justify the current panic-inducing and fear mongering practiced by the government and media?
Marco.
Well the government are not fear-mongering, they are trying to get everyone back to work, the schools have gone back, the poxy students will all go back to college this month and next month.
Governments have to consider voters don't forget. Their primary driver for any decision they make is whether it will help or hinder them to be re-elected. All other considerations are secondary to that.
The media make their money from bad news, it's not in their interest to do pieces about how everything is pretty much normal and there's no real need to worry.
if you can't be arsed to watch then it would seem that the original panic was due to what have turned out to be wildly incorrect forecasts by John Hopkins and ICL at the start of the pandemic. They were out in their predictions by a factor of 15. Not their fault I suppose, they did not have much to go on back then, and you can understand why governments ran with it.
Ok, thanks for that. I broadly agree, except not on the issue of fear-mongering, although I agree that the diktat for that is coming from way above the government, who are simply puppets for the REAL decision makers.
In the meantime, I'd urge as many of you as possible to watch this film, as it serves as a warning against what the future may hold, in terms of the misuse of technology by our authorities:
https://youtu.be/oSX70_nNTXU
More here: https://mailchi.mp/bigbrotherwatch/digital-id-cards-not-on-our-watch-6455444?e=9509ffdbfa
Marco.
This is an excellent analysis of the data and is up to date as of 8th September.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=8UvFhIFzaac&feature=emb_logo
Based on this I've re-assessed my previous position that this is more serious then swine flu, or any previous epidemic as it clearly isn't.
And continuing social distancing, compulsory mask-wearing, banning large gatherings etc is not only damaging the economy but is completely pointless.
Worth watching the whole presentation.
Indeed, which I've just done. Big thanks to you for posting this excellent (non-biased bullshit, facts-based) video, which for me now crystallizes the situation! I was very sceptical before about just how serious this 'pandemic' *really* was, now I'm utterly convinced that it's all been blown way, WAY out of proportion...
Everyone should watch this video, if they want to truly understand the reality of the situation, rather than the one being portrayed to us by the media (and those who control it). WATCH IT, FOLKS, AND LEARN...!
What's really pissing me off though, and puzzling me in equal measure, is WHY oh WHY isn't this information being discussed and/or debated in mainstream media platforms, such as national TV, and questions such as the very good one that chap asked, in reference to the fact that there has been 300m people going into pubs and restaurants, all indoors, most of the time not wearing masks, for the last six weeks, with little to no social distancing, yet NO SIGNIFICANT SPIKE in infections, and certainly hospitalisations or deaths, as a result - so WHY is that??
What about the *actual unbiased scientific data*, as outlined, on the effectiveness of masks, strongly suggesting (I'll fall short of saying categorically proving) that they are ineffective, with NO measurable impact on outcomes, in terms of their ability to flatten the curve of infection rates? So WHY are we all being forced to wear them??
Most importantly, WHY is no-one getting the opportunity to ask these questions and put the data, as outlined in the video, to the government and/or the scientists providing them with advice? Since this accrued data is factual, surely that would be in everyone's best interests, certainly in terms of allaying fear and better informing people of what *is actually* happening? And in reality, why there will be NO 'SECOND WAVE'!
The fact is, this thing was largely over in May, and the only reason that there is currently a rise in cases ['Casedemic Hysteria' - love it!] is simply due to hyper-testing with PCR!!
So why is this excellent factual scientific data being forced to remain hidden away in the backwaters, often on platforms that many folks won't see, and often subjected to censorship? Why isn't all this information being put out into the open for the consumption of the masses?
Anyway, the good thing is that as more data like this becomes available and put into the public domain, the less people are liable to continue being brainwashed, and the sooner this whole thing will be exposed for (largely) the bullshit that it is, in terms of its severity and the justification for bringing the world to a halt in order for us to 'cope'!:doh:
Marco.
Marco it's just media and politics.
BBC News 24 and Sky run the country. Politicians just play ball to them. It's a total joke.
It's the same in other countries where the media is out of control.
Just think of the three years solid we had of leaving the EU. The media is brainless and monolithically fixates on topics to the exclusion of everything else, especially logic and truth.
It is seriously worrying and the amount of damage it is doing is crazy.
Marco it's just media and politics.
BBC News 24 and Sky run the country. Politicians just play ball to them. It's a total joke.
It's the same in other countries where the media is out of control.
Just think of the three years solid we had of leaving the EU. The media is brainless and monolithically fixates on topics to the exclusion of everything else, especially logic and truth.
It is seriously worrying and the amount of damage it is doing is crazy.
Indeed, and also seriously worrying about where all this will lead.
They're still ramping up the fear and panic factor this morning on the news, going on about the coming of a 'massive second wave' this winter, when the evidence we've seen clearly shows that that is *extremely* unlikely, and instead that the epidemic [by any real definition of the word] actually ended in May, and has been on a sharp downward spiral since!
And folk [the gullible and less inquisitive] will suck up and believe this bullshit, which will then allow the government to justify all sorts of controlling crap that simply isn't necessary, indeed rather is counterproductive and will be far more damaging to people's lives than any effect of the virus!:doh:
So how many of you have actually watched the video Martin posted, and if so, what did you think of the evidence presented?
Marco.
Indeed, and also seriously worrying about where all this will lead.
They're still ramping up the fear and panic factor this morning on the news, going on about the coming of a 'massive second wave' this winter, when the evidence we've seen clearly shows that that is *extremely* unlikely, and instead that the epidemic [by any real definition of the word] actually ended in May, and has been on a sharp downward spiral since!
And folk [the gullible and less inquisitive] will suck up and believe this bullshit, which will then allow the government to justify all sorts of controlling crap that simply isn't necessary, indeed rather is counterproductive and will be far more damaging to people's lives than any effect of the virus!:doh:
So how many of you have actually watched the video Martin posted, and if so, what did you think of the evidence presented?
Marco.Correct.
What annoys me more than anything is the availability in recent years of news channels who drum this bullshit into people's brains 24/7.
My mother-in-law is a massive victim. At 78 she's glued to it for extended periods and hasn't got the intelligence to see through it.
anthonyTD
16-09-2020, 08:52
Lots of good info there Martin, which i am sure most folk like many of us here wont have seen or heard about!
The real problem as i see it, and why the fear factor is still working is due to the severe symptoms some of the unlucky few are left with after contracting Covid-19, these symptoms are very real, and in many cases fatal, but from the data available, and considering how many of us have actualy had this,[i suspect its probably getting on to at least half the uk population] the mortality rate, and those who are unlucky to have suffered the worst is still exceptionaly low,however; this doesent mean that we can dismiss the very real threat of covid-19, because you never know who may be amongst the unlucky ones who either end up with severe life long health issues, or worst, so for now, i think we still need to respect that fact, and to continue to do what we can to protect ourselves, and those around us, and hope that the majority will do the same, at least until we know [for sure] a lot more than we do now about where this thing came from, and its real purpose!
This is an excellent analysis of the data and is up to date as of 8th September.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=8UvFhIFzaac&feature=emb_logo
Based on this I've re-assessed my previous position that this is more serious then swine flu, or any previous epidemic as it clearly isn't.
And continuing social distancing, compulsory mask-wearing, banning large gatherings etc is not only damaging the economy but is completely pointless.
Worth watching the whole presentation.
The real problem as i see it, and why the fear factor is still working is due to the severe symptoms some of the unlucky few are left with after contracting Covid-19, these symptoms are very real, and in many cases fatal, but from the data available, and considering how many of us have actualy had this,[i suspect its probably getting on to at least half the uk population] the mortality rate, and those who are unlucky to have suffered the worst is still exceptionaly low,however; this doesent mean that we can dismiss the very real threat of covid-19, because you never know who may be amongst the unlucky ones who either end up with severe life long health issues, or worst, so for now, i think we still need to respect that fact
Absolutely, there's no doubt about that, *but* we can't allow it to govern all the most important decisions involving the running of the country, ultimately to the detriment of things that will have a much longer and more devastating impact on everyone.
And in order to prevent that, we need to stop the peddling of all this 'fake news', designed to create fear and panic, and get the FACTS out into the public domain (as shown on that video), so that people are better informed about what's *really* happening, and therefore better able to make their OWN decisions, in terms of what's best for themselves and their families, based on reality, not propaganda or blatant falsehoods.
The problem is that the 'powers that be' don't want people to be better informed, as that doesn't suit their agenda!
Marco.
Correct.
What annoys me more than anything is the availability in recent years of news channels who drum this bullshit into people's brains 24/7.
My mother-in-law is a massive victim. At 78 she's glued to it for extended periods and hasn't got the intelligence to see through it.
Me too, and you have to ask yourself what the driving force is behind that... The answer of course is for the 'powers that be' to try and control how people think, by constantly only feeding them what they want them to know.
Sadly your mother-in-law is typical not only of her generation, who were brought up in an era when you simply believed what you were told on the TV and radio, as there wasn't the opportunity available now to query it, but also of today's masses who either don't have the intelligence to question or challenge the 'accepted norm', or just sit back and accept being 'led' (and ultimately controlled), simply for a quite life - and that apathy could result in their future downfall, along with the rest of us, if we don't ALL wake up NOW and fight against the tyranny that may await us...!
Marco.
anthonyTD
16-09-2020, 09:56
And i agree that if we were all rational thinking people, informing us of the facts would be in everyone's best interest, however; as we continualy see in everyday life, you can always rely on the genral public to do the wrong thing, hence the government would rather treat everyone the same, and impliment a blanket ruiling that everyone has to adere to, this may not be the ideal decision to make, but from a government point of view it is!
I also understand that its a great opertunety to posibly impliment changes using the current situation, that once all this is over will become long term, so again i agree, we have to stay alert, and awake to these posibilities.
Absolutely, there's no doubt about that, *but* we can't allow it to drive all the most important decisions involving the running of the country, ultimately to the detriment of things that will have a much longer and more devastating impact on everyone.
And in order to prevent that, we need to stop the peddling of all this 'fake news', designed to create fear and panic, and get the FACTS out into the public domain (as shown on that video), so that people are better informed about what's *really* happening, and therefore are able to make their OWN decisions in terms of what's best for themselves and their families, based on reality, not propaganda or blatant falsehoods.
The problem is that the 'powers that be' don't want people to be better informed, as that doesn't suit their agenda!
Marco.
And i agree that if we were all rational thinking people, informing us of the facts would be in everyone's best interest, however; as we continualy see in everyday life, you can always rely on the genral public to do the wrong thing, hence the government would rather treat everyone the same, and impliment a blanket ruiling that everyone has to adere to, this may not be the ideal decision to make, but from a government point of view it is!
Sure, I agree and can see where you're coming from, but that doesn't make it right, simply because the TRUTH should never be stifled or censored, as doing so never creates the best long-term outcome for those who need to know it.
Free-thinking should always be nurtured and promoted, on all levels [we should never simply settle for blindly obeying any form of 'Big Brother'], as well as being well-informed on all important matters, as there's never any harm in knowing too much, but potentially plenty in knowing too little!!
Marco.
anthonyTD
16-09-2020, 10:56
:)
Sure, I agree and can see where you're coming from, but that doesn't make it right, simply because the TRUTH should never be stifled or censored, as doing so never creates the best long-term outcome for those who need to know it.
Free-thinking should always be nurtured and promoted, on all levels [we should never simply settle for blindly obeying any form of 'Big Brother'], as well as being well-informed on all important matters, as there's never any harm in knowing too much, but potentially plenty in knowing too little!!
Marco.
Lots of good info there Martin, which i am sure most folk like many of us here wont have seen or heard about!
The real problem as i see it, and why the fear factor is still working is due to the severe symptoms some of the unlucky few are left with after contracting Covid-19, these symptoms are very real, and in many cases fatal, but from the data available, and considering how many of us have actually had this,[i suspect its probably getting on to at least half the uk population] the mortality rate, and those who are unlucky to have suffered the worst is still exceptionally low, however; this doesn't mean that we can dismiss the very real threat of covid-19, because you never know who may be amongst the unlucky ones who either end up with severe life long health issues, or worst, so for now, i think we still need to respect that fact, and to continue to do what we can to protect ourselves, and those around us, and hope that the majority will do the same, at least until we know [for sure] a lot more than we do now about where this thing came from, and its real purpose!
I think that those who are prone to the worst effects of the virus due to age or health should continue to take precautions. But from a purely pragmatic point of view this should not extend to destroying everyone else's lives due to excessive measures. People who are elderly and/or in poor health have always been exposed to the risks of other covid virus, notably influenza, and no extreme action has ever been taken to prevent that.
As for your last sentence, we do know where it came from, horseshoe bats via pangolins (the danger of this exact event occurring was outlined in a paper published in 'Nature' back in 2009), and it has no 'purpose' - it's a virus! It's not sentient, or even alive in the normal sense of the word.
The data presented in the video I linked to clearly indicates that this pandemic is no worse than any other previous pandemic in terms of mortality rates, I'd recommend paying particular attention to the analysis of the overall death rates in the European countries which shows that there has been zero increase in deaths since the start of the pandemic, but because most countries had less deaths than normal in the months prior to the pandemic there was some catching up to be done. The 'dry tinder' effect, again explained in the video.
I will also distance myself from the various comments regarding 'The powers that be', 'The real people in charge', 'brainwashing, false information, the threat of technology being used to 'control' us, and all the rest of it. I don't agree that any of these things are either true now or a viable threat in the future, and they just detract from the simple message which is that the danger from Covid-19 is nothing like as bad as has been portrayed and the supposed 'preventative measures' that are destroying many people's lives need to be immediately reconsidered.
Governments acted on the predictions of experts, those predictions have turned out to be spectacularly wrong. That isn't anyone's fault nor is it a conspiracy. Governments have to act on expert advice, it is an insurance policy for them. They can't afford not to lest it all goes wrong and they get lambasted for 'Not listening to the experts'.
Experts often get their predictions wrong, especially when they have very little data to work with. Cock-up, not conspiracy.
And the media will always talk everything up, it's how they get viewers, regardless of who owns the platform in question. IMO conspiracy theorizing is just as bad as the media exaggeration and hype and clouds the real issues. As always, the truth is to be found in the hard data, and no-where else.
walpurgis
17-09-2020, 07:05
Why are people clamouring for Covid tests at all?
They are queueing in droves for many hours or even days for what limited tests can be found available, but any results are of pretty limited use. The accuracy, one way or the other is only 70%, so largely useless! What accuracy there is, is only valid at that exact time, immediately after the test you could be exposed to infection from another person. And what the heck will you do with the information anyway? You'll (probably) still need to go to work and take the kids to school etc. The whole idea seems pointless to me, unless of course you think providing the powers that be with inaccurate information for their records is beneficial.
Also, something to consider. Are you happy with the government having your DNA information?
Some people like to get caught up in the hysteria. They enjoy it. It's weird, but each to his own.
Re the DNA thing - what possible use could the government make of that, nefarious or otherwise? I rack my brain but can't think of anything. Plus they'd probably lose it or get it mixed up with someone else's anyway.
walpurgis
17-09-2020, 07:27
It would be ironic to contract the infection whilst queueing for the test. I'm willing to bet that's happened, seeing that some with symptoms may choose to seek a test, exposing those around them.
Interesting viewing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvFhIFzaac&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR0I-ClysuE8MABKd1C5ONvA9UQ9NiRLAwbBfYhiqmIaSToArRE4SHD KsEM
I think that those who are prone to the worst effects of the virus due to age or health should continue to take precautions. But from a purely pragmatic point of view this should not extend to destroying everyone else's lives due to excessive measures. People who are elderly and/or in poor health have always been exposed to the risks of other covid virus, notably influenza, and no extreme action has ever been taken to prevent that.
I agree, so why has such extreme action been taken this time - what justification is there for it now that wasn't deemed necessary before? As you say, influenza (and pneumonia) has killed, and will continue to kill in future, far more people than Covid-19 has or ever will, so WHY have we never shut down the whole country in an attempt to control or 'fix' that?
As for your last sentence, we do know where it came from, horseshoe bats via pangolins (the danger of this exact event occurring was outlined in a paper published in 'Nature' back in 2009), and it has no 'purpose' - it's a virus! It's not sentient, or even alive in the normal sense of the word.
Well, as far as I'm concerned the bat thing is simply a plausible explanation, but no more than that. I've yet to see any conclusive proof showing that's where it started. It's not the virus itself that has a 'purpose', but possibly the authorities using it as an excuse to impose more levels of control on the population, as governments often seek to do, simply because it makes their job easier.
The data presented in the video I linked to clearly indicates that this pandemic is no worse than any other previous pandemic in terms of mortality rates, I'd recommend paying particular attention to the analysis of the overall death rates in the European countries which shows that there has been zero increase in deaths since the start of the pandemic, but because most countries had less deaths than normal in the months prior to the pandemic there was some catching up to be done. The 'dry tinder' effect, again explained in the video.
100% agree, so why are we using bad science instead, which is promoting the nonsensical prospect of a 'huge second wave' this winter, to drive all the important decisions we're taking to run the country (many of them, as you've said, which have so far proven disastrous, as the data clearly shows that lockdowns have NOT flattened the curve), when the good science, as shown in the video, clearly indicates a very likely different scenario?
And, most importantly, why is the good science being hidden away, or not recognised and discussed on mainstream TV, and given the appropriate coverage? And this is the important bit...
If there was no nefarious agenda (or existence of sheer government incompetence), and the science/data shown in the video was indisputably correct, then surely that would be a reason to CELEBRATE the fact that the real epidemic is over (was over in May), and that the only reason the case numbers are skyrocketing is because of all the stupid bloody testing?
Then we can all embrace and accept that fact, protect the most vulnerable, by shielding them appropriately, and let the rest of us get back to living our bloody lives as normal, and building up herd immunity?? You can't rule the whole country (or the world) based on what might happen to a tiny percentage of the population because of a virus - you have to rule it based on what will almost certainly happen with the VAST majority who will survive it!
What's your answer to that? It's just UTTERLY BONKERS what's currently happening, and the threat of another national lockdown, based on what - self-inflicted rising cases, which if the correct data is analysed, are easily explainable??:doh:
We need to end this 'casedemic hysteria' now, before it leads to the making of even more disastrous decisions!
...the simple message which is that the danger from Covid-19 is nothing like as bad as has been portrayed and the supposed 'preventative measures' that are destroying many people's lives need to be immediately reconsidered.
Indeed, but will it be? It certainly doesn't look like it!!:rolleyes:
So who do we blame, if things continue as they are, and it all goes tits up? BJ-boy and his hapless cronies [and dimwit scientific advisors], that's who!
Governments acted on the predictions of experts, those predictions have turned out to be spectacularly wrong. That isn't anyone's fault nor is it a conspiracy. Governments have to act on expert advice, it is an insurance policy for them. They can't afford not to lest it all goes wrong and they get lambasted for 'Not listening to the experts'.
Experts often get their predictions wrong, especially when they have very little data to work with. Cock-up, not conspiracy.
So why are they continuing to listen to the WRONG experts, who clearly aren't able to analyse the data correctly (or perhaps are deliberately doing so for reasons we don't yet know) - the same ones who produced a model for the outcome of the epidemic that was grossly inaccurate - why aren't they being guided instead by the scientists who collated the data shown on that video? If they were, we wouldn't be in this mess now!
As always, the truth is to be found in the hard data, and no-where else.
Yes, but only when the "hard data" examined is correct, otherwise you'll never get to the truth. The whole thing is an absolute and disgraceful shambles, with likely fatal and irreversible consequences.
Marco.
Why are people clamouring for Covid tests at all?
They are queueing in droves for many hours or even days for what limited tests can be found available, but any results are of pretty limited use. The accuracy, one way or the other is only 70%, so largely useless! What accuracy there is, is only valid at that exact time, immediately after the test you could be exposed to infection from another person. And what the heck will you do with the information anyway? You'll (probably) still need to go to work and take the kids to school etc. The whole idea seems pointless to me, unless of course you think providing the powers that be with inaccurate information for their records is beneficial.
Also, something to consider. Are you happy with the government having your DNA information?
Completely agree, Geoff (on all counts). For me, the less they know, the better it is!
Marco.
ianlenco
17-09-2020, 08:06
People who are elderly and/or in poor health have always been exposed to the risks of other covid virus, notably influenza, and no extreme action has ever been taken to prevent that.
Influenza is not a covid virus.
Influenza is not a covid virus.
You're correct, my bad.
anthonyTD
17-09-2020, 09:32
I did think long and hard before putting up the link below, but all i will say concerning this is post is; if this person is right, then maybe there is a real danger of this strain of Virus mutating into something far more dangerous, and maybe governments around the world know this, which is why they are desperate to stamp it out completely, i don't know, and i don't think many others out there know either, only those who have studied, or those who had a hand in its creation know more than us, all i am saying, is stay vigilent, and don't take unecessary risks!
And no before i get flamed for the platform this is on,i don't usualy visit this site, this was linked from another site i was reading!
https://www.infowars.com/rogue-chinese-virologist-joins-twitter-publishes-smoking-gun-evidence-covid-19-created-in-lab/
I think that those who are prone to the worst effects of the virus due to age or health should continue to take precautions. But from a purely pragmatic point of view this should not extend to destroying everyone else's lives due to excessive measures. People who are elderly and/or in poor health have always been exposed to the risks of other covid virus, notably influenza, and no extreme action has ever been taken to prevent that.
As for your last sentence, we do know where it came from, horseshoe bats via pangolins (the danger of this exact event occurring was outlined in a paper published in 'Nature' back in 2009), and it has no 'purpose' - it's a virus! It's not sentient, or even alive in the normal sense of the word.
The data presented in the video I linked to clearly indicates that this pandemic is no worse than any other previous pandemic in terms of mortality rates, I'd recommend paying particular attention to the analysis of the overall death rates in the European countries which shows that there has been zero increase in deaths since the start of the pandemic, but because most countries had less deaths than normal in the months prior to the pandemic there was some catching up to be done. The 'dry tinder' effect, again explained in the video.
I will also distance myself from the various comments regarding 'The powers that be', 'The real people in charge', 'brainwashing, false information, the threat of technology being used to 'control' us, and all the rest of it. I don't agree that any of these things are either true now or a viable threat in the future, and they just detract from the simple message which is that the danger from Covid-19 is nothing like as bad as has been portrayed and the supposed 'preventative measures' that are destroying many people's lives need to be immediately reconsidered.
Governments acted on the predictions of experts, those predictions have turned out to be spectacularly wrong. That isn't anyone's fault nor is it a conspiracy. Governments have to act on expert advice, it is an insurance policy for them. They can't afford not to lest it all goes wrong and they get lambasted for 'Not listening to the experts'.
Experts often get their predictions wrong, especially when they have very little data to work with. Cock-up, not conspiracy.
And the media will always talk everything up, it's how they get viewers, regardless of who owns the platform in question. IMO conspiracy theorizing is just as bad as the media exaggeration and hype and clouds the real issues. As always, the truth is to be found in the hard data, and no-where else.
You got any thoughts, Anthony, in terms of what I've just posted to Martin (while he gets time to post a response)?:)
Why has our government been so guilty of following bad science, and seemingly ignoring the good (read as accurate) stuff, i.e. data that clearly shows (as it did in the video Martin linked to) that this epidemic is following the same (largely predictable behaviour) as others we've faced before, including the grossly MUCH deadlier Spanish flu, so why aren't the government using that data to influence their decisions instead?
Also, you state that they might be taking the action they have been taking, in an attempt to "stamp out" the virus, in order to prevent it from mutating into something deadlier in future...
Firstly, I'd point out that the evidence (as shown in the video Martin linked to) clearly shows that mans intervention, in terms of imposing national (and indeed worldwide) lockdowns, social distancing, surgical standards of hand-cleansing, masks, etc, has had next to FOOK ALL effect on flattening the curve [changing the behaviour of the virus], and that indeed nature (or biology) simply carries on regardless, in a predictable and observable way, so how could imposing further restrictions, such as more lockdowns, "stamp out" the virus, when such actions so far have been largely ineffectual?
Secondly, we as mere humans, simply do not have the capacity to prevent a virus from mutating into whatever it wants, so if that's going to happen, it's going to happen *regardless* of anything we do. Therefore, unless we find a truly effective and safe vaccine, which stops the virus in its tracks, I'm afraid that the only weapon we realistically have to fight it is heard immunity, and in that respect to wait and see what nature decides.
And we certainly have no control over what detrimental heath effects those who have unfortunately contracted the virus may suffer from in future, so as sad as that unfortunately is, what's done is done, and we just have to get on with it. That I'm afraid mate, is the harsh reality... We simply cannot stop the world from functioning, in order to fight a battle we cannot win!
Thankfully, as the video Martin linked to proves, the epidemic, in any REAL sense now is over, and its influence on the population will continue to wane, thus follow a downward trajectory, with likely few deaths occurring, (or certainly nothing like what took place when there was truly an epidemic earlier in the year, from March to May), until it eventually peters out, just as all others have done before it.
What we must do most importantly RIGHT NOW, is ensure that those of us who are alive (in whatever capacity that may be) still, along with our families, have a world (one we've always known) to live in when this is over, by making the RIGHT decisions in that respect, instead of continually the wrong ones. and if the government keep on doing what they're doing, that's far from certain!!
That mate, is the REAL scary thing, in terms of what the future may hold.......
Marco.
anthonyTD
17-09-2020, 10:53
And i get what your saying, and i am in agreement with most of it, however, when refering to this paticular case of virus, if it has been given a short cut route in evolution to humans as many scientists now seem to think, then IMO that would be enough of a reason for all of this madness, because frankly mate, that scenario is amongst the very few reasons that i can think of for the reaction many governments around the world have decided to impliment, including our own.
You got any thoughts, Anthony, in terms of what I've just posted to Martin (while he gets time to post a response)?:)
Why has our government been so guilty of following bad science, and seemingly ignoring the good (read as accurate) stuff, i.e. data that clearly shows (as it did in the video Martin linked to) that this epidemic is following the same (largely predictable behaviour) as others we've faced before, including the grossly MUCH deadlier Spanish flu, so why aren't the government using that data to influence their decisions instead?
Also, you state that they might be taking the action they have been doing, in an attempt to "stamp out" the virus, in order to prevent it from mutating into something deadlier in future...
Firstly, I'd point out that the evidence (as shown in the video Martin linked to) clearly shows that man's intervention, in terms of imposing national (and indeed worldwide) lockdowns, social distancing, surgical standards of hand-cleansing, etc, has had next to FOOK ALL effect on flattening the curve, and that indeed nature simply carries on regardless, in a predictable and observable way, so how could imposing further such restrictions "stamp out" the virus, when such actions so far have been largely ineffectual?
Secondly, we as mere humans, simply do not have the capacity to prevent a virus from mutating into whatever it wants, so if that's going to happen, it's going to happen *regardless* of anything we try and do. Therefore, unless we find a truly effective and safe vaccine, which stops the virus in its tracks, I'm afraid that the only weapon we realistically have to fight it is heard immunity, and to sit back and see what nature now decides.
And we certainly have no control over what future detrimental heath effects those who have contracted the virus may suffer from, so as sad as that unfortunately is, what's done is done, and we just have to get on with it. That I'm afraid ,mate, is the harsh reality...
Thankfully, as the video Martin linked to proves, the epidemic, in any REAL sense now, is over, and it will continue on a downward trajectory, just as all the others have historically, until it eventually peters out. What we must do now, most importantly, is ensure that those of us who are still alive (in whatever a capacity that may be) still, along with our families, have a world to live in when this is over, and if the government keep doing what they're doing that's far from certain!
That mate, is REAL scary thing, in terms of what the future may hold.......
Marco.
And i get what your saying, and i am in agreement with most of it, however, when refering to this paticular case of virus, if it has been given a short cut route in evolution to humans as many scientists now seem to think, then IMO that would be enough of a reason for all of this madness, because frankly mate, that scenario is amongst the very few reasons that i can think of for the reaction many governments around the world have decided to impliment, including our own.
Ok, could you clarify what you mean exactly by "all this madness"? And also why, in your opinion, the governments around the world have behaved as they have done?
In terms of the virus being "given a shortcut route in evolution", I have seen no real evidence for that, nor do I think that we're sufficiently advanced with biology to achieve such a thing successfully.
So in order to back up your point, as they used to say in school: 'show your workings':)
Marco.
anthonyTD
17-09-2020, 11:17
The madness i am refering to is everything thing that has been put into place since all of this started, all i am saying is; the madness may posibly make sense if you understand and believe the reasons behind it! watch the link i sent in the previous posts, its why i linked to it!
Ok, could you clarify what you mean exactly by "all this madness"? And also why, in your opinion, the governments around the world have behaved as they have done?
In terms of the virus being "given a shortcut route in evolution", I have seen no real evidence for that, nor do I think that we're sufficiently advanced with biology to achieve such a thing successfully.
So in order to back up your point, as they used to say in school: 'show your workings':)
Marco.
I agree, so why has such extreme action been taken this time - what justification is there for it now that wasn't deemed necessary before? As you say, influenza (and pneumonia) has killed, and will continue to kill in future, far more people than Covid-19 has or ever will, so WHY have we never shut down the whole country in an attempt to control or 'fix' that?
Well, as far as I'm concerned the bat thing is simply a plausible explanation, but no more than that. I've yet to see any conclusive proof showing that's where it started. It's not the virus itself that has a 'purpose', but possibly the authorities using it as an excuse to impose more levels of control on the population, as governments often seek to do, simply because it makes their job easier.
100% agree, so why are we using bad science instead, which is promoting the nonsensical prospect of a 'huge second wave' this winter, to drive all the important decisions we're taking to run the country (many of them, as you've said, which have so far proven disastrous, as the data clearly shows that lockdowns have NOT flattened the curve), when the good science, as shown in the video, clearly indicates a very likely different scenario?
And, most importantly, why is the good science being hidden away, or not recognised and discussed on mainstream TV, and given the appropriate coverage? And this is the important bit...
If there was no nefarious agenda (or existence of sheer government incompetence), and the science/data shown in the video was indisputably correct, then surely that would be a reason to CELEBRATE the fact that the real epidemic is over (was over in May), and that the only reason the case numbers are skyrocketing is because of all the stupid bloody testing?
Then we can all embrace and accept that fact, protect the most vulnerable, by shielding them appropriately, and let the rest of us get back to living our bloody lives as normal, and building up herd immunity?? You can't rule the whole country (or the world) based on what might happen to a tiny percentage of the population because of a virus - you have to rule it based on what will almost certainly happen with the VAST majority who will survive it!
What's your answer to that? It's just UTTERLY BONKERS what's currently happening, and the threat of another national lockdown, based on what - self-inflicted rising cases, which if the correct data is analysed, are easily explainable??:doh:
We need to end this 'casedemic hysteria' now, before it leads to the making of even more disastrous decisions!
Indeed, but will it be? It certainly doesn't look like it!!:rolleyes:
So who do we blame, if things continue as they are, and it all goes tits up? BJ-boy and his hapless cronies [and dimwit scientific advisors], that's who!
So why are they continuing to listen to the WRONG experts, who clearly aren't able to analyse the data correctly (or perhaps are deliberately doing so for reasons we don't yet know) - the same ones who produced a model for the outcome of the epidemic that was grossly inaccurate - why aren't they being guided instead by the scientists who collated the data shown on that video? If they were, we wouldn't be in this mess now!
Yes, but only when the "hard data" examined is correct, otherwise you'll never get to the truth. The whole thing is an absolute and disgraceful shambles, with likely fatal and irreversible consequences.
Marco.
, so why has such extreme action been taken this time - what justification is there for it now that wasn't deemed necessary before? As you say, influenza (and pneumonia) has killed, and will continue to kill in future, far more people than Covid-19 has or ever will, so WHY have we never shut down the whole country in an attempt to control or 'fix' that?
Because the strategy was based on the data available back in March. The predictions turned out to be way off.
Well, as far as I'm concerned the bat thing is simply a plausible explanation, but no more than that. I've yet to see any conclusive proof showing that's where it started. It's not the virus itself that has a 'purpose', but possibly the authorities using it as an excuse to impose more levels of control on the population, as governments often seek to do, simply because it makes their job easier.
Yes there is no proof it is just the most likely explanation. As far as controls are concerned, damaging the economy with a lockdown makes life a lot harder for the government, not easier, as unemployment and poverty increase, so does crime and civil disorder. It also means they are less likely to be re-elected.
So who do we blame, if things continue as they are, and it all goes tits up? BJ-boy and his hapless cronies [and dimwit scientific advisors], that's who!
As I said previously there isn't really anyone to blame. Scientists advised on the basis of the available data and governments are pretty much obliged to run with that advice. The problem the government has now is that they want everything back to normal but there is a large and vocal number of 'pearl-clutchers' who will criticise any attempts to do this, as we have seen with sending the children back to school.
And, most importantly, why is the good science being hidden away, or not recognised and discussed on mainstream TV, and given the appropriate coverage?
Mainstream news doesn't tend to go in for presenting graphs and data analysis because too many viewers won't understand it and will swap to a more 'low brow' news channel.
The whole thing is an absolute and disgraceful shambles, with likely fatal and irreversible consequences.
The consequences are not irreversible, at least not the economic consequences, but it will take time. It took over ten years for western economies to get back to where they were after the 2008 crash. As long as you don't have complete economic breakdown economies always recover, and we didn't even get close to complete breakdown. I don't see any reason to be overly pessimistic in that regard.
I did think long and hard before putting up the link below, but all i will say concerning this is post is; if this person is right, then maybe there is a real danger of this strain of Virus mutating into something far more dangerous, and maybe governments around the world know this, which is why they are desperate to stamp it out completely, i don't know, and i don't think many others out there know either, only those who have studied, or those who had a hand in its creation know more than us, all i am saying, is stay vigilent, and don't take unecessary risks!
And no before i get flamed for the platform this is on,i don't usualy visit this site, this was linked from another site i was reading!
https://www.infowars.com/rogue-chinese-virologist-joins-twitter-publishes-smoking-gun-evidence-covid-19-created-in-lab/
Interesting, but the paper needs to be critiqued by experts before it's worth seriously considering as a possibility. I'll wait for the peer reviews.
Thanks for your detailed reply, although bloody hell, you are SHITE at doing quotes!:D;) Anyway, I'll just respond to this now and get to the rest later:
Because the strategy was based on the data available back in March. The predictions turned out to be way off.
Ok, so WHY aren't they basing their current strategy on the data available NOW, such as that contained in the video you linked to earlier, and studying properly what has *actually* happened? THAT is my point!!
Marco.
anthonyTD
17-09-2020, 11:24
Another link to the actual report, rather than having to go to that site!
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/chinese-doctor-claims-she-has-evidence-coronavirus-was-created-lab?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed+%28zero+hedg e+-+on+a+long+enough+timeline%2C+the+survival+rate+fo r+everyone+drops+to+zero%29
Interesting, but the paper needs to be critiqued by experts before it's worth seriously considering as a possibility. I'll wait for the peer reviews.
Indeed it is very interesting (so thanks for sharing that, Anthony). If it's true though (and the repercussions for that would be horrendous and could trigger a war against China), why didn't they create a deadlier virus?
Because lets face it, although one death is one too many, it's done a pretty piss-poor job so far of killing folk, aside from the very weak!;)
And what's that got to do with the governments of the world behaving as they've done? If what's contained in that link is true, then how does locking down everything fight it, when that's already been proven not to work?:scratch:
Marco.
Thanks for your detailed reply, although bloody hell, you are SHITE at doing quotes!:D;) Anyway, I'll just respond to this now and get to the rest later:
Ok, so WHY aren't they basing their current strategy on the data available NOW, such as that contained in the video you linked to earlier, and studying properly what has *actually* happened? THAT is my point!!
Marco.
They are. Pubs and restaurants re-opened (no masks while eating and drinking) children back to school, employers urged to end home-working and so on. Too much too soon and you get the pearl-clutchers up in arms. Also, regrettably, we've seen from the start how this has been used as a political football so you have all the 'lefties' who, whilst some may agree with the science, will still use relaxation of restrictions as a stick to beat the government with - evil tories risking all our lives etc etc.
So it's political considerations first, pragmatism second. As always.
Indeed it is very interesting (so thanks for sharing that, Anthony). If it's true though (and the repercussions for that would be horrendous and could trigger a war against China), why didn't they create a deadlier virus?
Because lets face it, although one death is one too many, it's done a pretty piss-poor job so far of killing folk, aside from the very weak!;)
And what's that got to do with the governments of the world behaving as they've done? If what's contained in that link is true, then how does locking down everything fight it, when that's already been proven not to work?:scratch:
Marco.
That does seem to be a logical conclusion. If you were going to manufacture a deadly virus you'd surely do a whole lot better. I suppose you could argue it was a work in progress and was accidentally released prior to completion. All highly unlikely though. And unlikely a government would be behind it too. Maybe a Bond villain might try something like that.
They are. Pubs and restaurants re-opened (no masks while eating and drinking) children back to school, employers urged to end home-working and so on. Too much too soon and you get the pearl-clutchers up in arms. Also, regrettably, we've seen from the start how this has been used as a political football so you have all the 'lefties' who, whilst some may agree with the science, will still use relaxation of restrictions as a stick to beat the government with - evil tories risking all our lives etc etc.
So it's political considerations first, pragmatism second. As always.
You're missing the point. The data contained in the video you linked to CLEARLY showed that such actions have had little to NO impact on altering the behaviour of the virus, so......
Why persist with them, and a strategy that's patently FAILING?? ...When the impact it's having is so devastating on people's lives, and in a way that's likely to be more damaging, in the long term, than any effect of the virus?
And why are they continually twittering on about a 'second wave' when the evidence shown in the video you posted, CLEARLY illustrates, based on past behaviour of similar viruses, that that's extremely unlikely to happen?
My basic point is that what they're doing now to supposedly 'help' the situation is likely to achieve the precise opposite!
Moreover, if there's another national lockdown (as has been mooted in the news over the last few days), simply due to exaggerated case figures, it WILL make things WORSE - that's worse in terms of what impact it'll have on things that currently MATTER FAR MORE (as the virulent effect of the virus is clearly in decline), such as the economy and many folks dying from cancer, etc, because they can't get treatment - that'll likely kill far more people than the bloody virus will!
Therefore, I'm afraid logic dictates that there are only two possible reasons that explain the government's current behaviour:
1) Gross stupidity or incompetence.
2) They have an (as yet undisclosed) agenda.
And based on what I've seen, both to date and recently, since this whole thing started, I'm strongly favouring the latter.
Marco.
That does seem to be a logical conclusion. If you were going to manufacture a deadly virus you'd surely do a whole lot better. I suppose you could argue it was a work in progress and was accidentally released prior to completion. All highly unlikely though. And unlikely a government would be behind it too. Maybe a Bond villain might try something like that.
:lolsign:
Seriously though, what's interesting is that the argument for that is both well-thought out and plausible (based on the contents of Anthony's link), as in it *could* have happened, but is very unlikely. It's, however, not ridiculous.
My basic point being that there appears to be enough smoke caused, to potentially have started a fire...
Marco.
Sherwood
17-09-2020, 12:32
There is so much BS on the Internet about Covid 19, much of it produced by conspiracy theorists with a political axe to grind or by unqualified commentators without the appropriate technical skills and training. The Youtube video posted earlier was authored by a chemical engineer not by a public health specialist or epidemiologist. It amounts to no more than a crude curve-fitting exercise rather than a disease modelling exercise and as such has no explanatory or predictive power. It is already undermined by the fact that infection rates have started to rise alarmingly in many countries in recent weeks. I place my confidence in the work of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and its director Chris Murray. Chris is a world-renowned expert in disease modelling and played a key role in the global burden of disease work when he was at WHO. The IHME projections for the coming months are frightening.
A few governments briefly flirted with the idea of a strategy based on herd immunity principles but quickly abandoned this when the huge mortality implications were calculated. Herd immunity not the only game in town it is not even an effective approach. It is naive in the extreme to believe that we can regulate the rate of new infections en route to the development of herd immunity such that we do not overwhelm health services in the interim period. Without any mitigation actions, the reproduction rate for Covid appears to be about 3. Clearly, clearly some countries have been more effective than others in reducing this rate, with some achieving rates well below unity (1).
As public health experts have repeatedly reaffirmed, there are effective strategies already available pending the development of a safe and effective vaccine. The key elements of this strategy are: mask wearing, social distancing, avoidance of mass congregating, widespread testing with rapid turnaround of results, contact tracing, and early isolation of infected parties. Johns Hopkins projections suggest that in the absence of the above mitigation efforts, this winter will see health services worldwide overwhelmed by Covid cases.
This will be my last post on this subject. As someone who has worked in international health in around 30 different countries over 35 years my comments are based upon evidence and science. I take no pleasure in predicting that without a strengthening of mitigation measures, we will see the NHS under extreme pressure of collapse in the coming winter. I hope I am wrong but the science and (credible) models suggest otherwise.
With respect, Geoff, like the WHO have got it all right so far, including the model that they created to predict the outcome of the epidemic? Sorry, I see little evidence to place much faith in what that shower of assholes come up with!:doh:
So thanks very much, but no, I'll stick instead with the "BS" I consider is the more reliable, based on my judgment criteria. I'll get to the rest of your post later.
Marco.
Sherwood
17-09-2020, 12:54
Why are people clamouring for Covid tests at all?
They are queueing in droves for many hours or even days for what limited tests can be found available, but any results are of pretty limited use. The accuracy, one way or the other is only 70%, so largely useless! What accuracy there is, is only valid at that exact time, immediately after the test you could be exposed to infection from another person. And what the heck will you do with the information anyway? You'll (probably) still need to go to work and take the kids to school etc. The whole idea seems pointless to me, unless of course you think providing the powers that be with inaccurate information for their records is beneficial.
Also, something to consider. Are you happy with the government having your DNA information?
If seatbelts "only" prevented 70% of crash fatalities would you reject their use. If tests are only 70% effective in identifying true positives, that is still more than 2 in 3 of such cases. That is two sources of potential infections out of three identified for contact tracing and quarantine.
Definitely last post ...
There is so much BS on the Internet about Covid 19, much of it produced by conspiracy theorists with a political axe to grind or by unqualified commentators without the appropriate technical skills and training. The Youtube video posted earlier was authored by a chemical engineer not by a public health specialist or epidemiologist. It amounts to no more than a crude curve-fitting exercise rather than a disease modelling exercise and as such has no explanatory or predictive power. It is already undermined by the fact that infection rates have started to rise alarmingly in many countries in recent weeks. I place my confidence in the work of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation and its director Chris Murray. Chris is a world-renowned expert in disease modelling and played a key role in the global burden of disease work when he was at WHO. The IHME projections for the coming months are frightening.
A few governments briefly flirted with the idea of a strategy based on herd immunity principles but quickly abandoned this when the huge mortality implications were calculated. Herd immunity not the only game in town it is not even an effective approach. It is naive in the extreme to believe that we can regulate the rate of new infections en route to the development of herd immunity such that we do not overwhelm health services in the interim period. Without any mitigation actions, the reproduction rate for Covid appears to be about 3. Clearly, clearly some countries have been more effective than others in reducing this rate, with some achieving rates well below unity (1).
As public health experts have repeatedly reaffirmed, there are effective strategies already available pending the development of a safe and effective vaccine. The key elements of this strategy are: mask wearing, social distancing, avoidance of mass congregating, widespread testing with rapid turnaround of results, contact tracing, and early isolation of infected parties. Johns Hopkins projections suggest that in the absence of the above mitigation efforts, this winter will see health services worldwide overwhelmed by Covid cases.
This will be my last post on this subject. As someone who has worked in international health in around 30 different countries over 35 years my comments are based upon evidence and science. I take no pleasure in predicting that without a strengthening of mitigation measures, we will see the NHS under extreme pressure of collapse in the coming winter. I hope I am wrong but the science and (credible) models suggest otherwise.
My comments are also based on evidence and science and, unlike you, I've posted my reference for scrutiny. My guess is you have not even watched it.
Cases have gone up because there has been a massive increase in testing. Really not rocket science. If mask wearing and social distancing has any effect why have influenza cases not gone down? Influenza is a less communicable disease than C19 so cases should have dropped like a stone. Explain that.
Indeed... Also, I have to say I have little time for this stating an opinion, in a forceful manner, supposedly claiming the moral or intellectual high ground, and unquestionable veracity, then uttering 'That's my last post on the matter', and running off like a girl, sorry, Geoff...:rolleyes:
Instead, demonstrate proper conviction in your opinions, by STAYING and DEFENDING them accordingly, when they're rightly challenged, and seek to convince us that you're right, rather than taking umbrage at the opinions of others that don't fit with your belief system, as otherwise it does little to add value to the discussion.
Marco.
Sherwood
17-09-2020, 13:21
My comments are also based on evidence and science and, unlike you, I've posted my reference for scrutiny. My guess is you have not even watched it.
Cases have gone up because there has been a massive increase in testing. Really not rocket science. If mask wearing and social distancing has any effect why have influenza cases not gone down? Influenza is a less communicable disease than C19 so cases should have dropped like a stone. Explain that.
You are making false and unjustified assumptions about me. Not only did I watch the video in full, I looked up the credentials of the author, checked the figures presented against recent data, and compared this to models which have consistently been close to their projections (albeit somewhat underestimating death rates). If you had done the same I doubt if you would have any confidence in the claims made.
Your reasoning is flawed. New infections (incidence) and current infections (prevalence) are up in reality and not just because we are testing more.
As to influenza cases, the forthcoming winter flu epidemic is forecast to be somewhat lower than usual precisely because of the knock on effects of the Covid mitigation effects.
I have spent enough time on this and conclude that some people will believe what they want, and rely on the arguments made by unqualified parties rather than global experts in the field.
Not only did I watch the video in full, I looked up the credentials of the author, checked the figures presented against recent data, and compared this to models which have consistently been close to their projections (albeit somewhat underestimating death rates)...
Ok then, show us evidence of that then, and the data you believe categorically contradicts that contained in the video Martin linked to, including the models that have been close to their projections, so we can therefore consider it. You need to put some proper 'meat on the bone' on your argument, as mere words mean little.
Marco.
You are making false and unjustified assumptions about me. Not only did I watch the video in full, I looked up the credentials of the author...
What about the credentials of the scientists whose expertise collated the data he was referencing in the video - surely that's the most important and relevant bit?
Marco.
You are making false and unjustified assumptions about me. Not only did I watch the video in full, I looked up the credentials of the author, checked the figures presented against recent data, and compared this to models which have consistently been close to their projections (albeit somewhat underestimating death rates). If you had done the same I doubt if you would have any confidence in the claims made.
Your reasoning is flawed. New infections (incidence) and current infections (prevalence) are up in reality and not just because we are testing more.
As to influenza cases, the forthcoming winter flu epidemic is forecast to be somewhat lower than usual precisely because of the knock on effects of the Covid mitigation effects.
I have spent enough time on this and conclude that some people will believe what they want, and rely on the arguments made by unqualified parties rather than global experts in the field.
Now you are making false assumptions about me. I have no dog in the race and am happy to change my mind if a convincing case is made. Just proclaiming that 'experts' say something and not backing it up is not making a convincing case. In fact that's how people end up believing a whole load of rubbish. There are people who think hi-fi magazine journalists are experts, or marketing men are experts. I am not one of them. The word is bandied about far too easily these days and it adds zero weight to anything.
If you don't want to get involved in the discussion that's fine, but getting involved by simply posting - 'You're wrong, I say so and experts say so' just doesn't cut it. I thought you had an academic background?
My cousin's daughter Alex airs her concerns about going back to uni (1:18 & 10:31). Don't know how she got to be such a smart cookie, that gene obviously skipped our generation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000mpnf/debate-night-series-2-16092020
ianlenco
17-09-2020, 17:17
You're correct, my bad.
Not a criticism, it's easy to get confused by all these viruses. For instance, around 20% of common colds are caused by a coronovirus, not the same one as Covid 19 but a relative.
Are they kissing cousins?:D
Marco.
My cousin's daughter Alex airs her concerns about going back to uni (1:18 & 10:31). Don't know how she got to be such a smart cookie, that gene obviously skipped our generation.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000mpnf/debate-night-series-2-16092020
Nice one, Roy. Family must be proud:)
Marco.
Nice one, Roy. Family must be proud:)
Marco.
Thanks, she's a credit to her Mum & Dad as is her twin sister who's training to be a nurse.
dave2010
17-09-2020, 18:22
So how many of you have actually watched the video Martin posted, and if so, what did you think of the evidence presented?
I watched it. It seems very credible.
However, do we really all now want to resume the crazy ways of life some of us had before - even if the video turns out to be largely true?
For examples - pointless commuting each day into offices.
Too much road traffic. Too much air traffic.
One problem with most factors is that mostly they are not binary choices - all or nothing. Some road and air traffic is probably desirable - enables us to go out and do things we want to do. When that gets to high levels though, it becomes counter productive, and much less pleasant - and also impacts on others.
I have lived in places where there was significant noise from aircraft - it was unpleasant. Yet apart from our own personal desires to see the world, the airline companies, and the plane makers, and many of the people who have jobs in the travel industry - all have vested interests in keeping levels of flying high - nay increasing. How do we get to sweet spots where most people are satisfied?
This kind of issue is common in so many aspects of life.
Even if Covid 19 was fake - and I'm not sure that it was - that is no reason to blindly go back to the way things were before.
anthonyTD
17-09-2020, 18:56
Some good points there Dave,
Air travel is a very real problem, eg, the ability to jump on a plane and go to another country thousands of miles away cheaper than a return ticket from wales to london is IMO just wrong! :scratch:
We have to do a better job of looking after this world, or one day it realy will bite us on the Arse for sure...:doh:
I watched it. It seems very credible.
However, do we really all now want to resume the crazy ways of life some of us had before - even if the video turns out to be largely true?
For examples - pointless commuting each day into offices.
Too much road traffic. Too much air traffic.
One problem with most factors is that mostly they are not binary choices - all or nothing. Some road and air traffic is probably desirable - enables us to go out and do things we want to do. When that gets to high levels though, it becomes counter productive, and much less pleasant - and also impacts on others.
I have lived in places where there was significant noise from aircraft - it was unpleasant. Yet apart from our own personal desires to see the world, the airline companies, and the plane makers, and many of the people who have jobs in the travel industry - all have vested interests in keeping levels of flying high - nay increasing. How do we get to sweet spots where most people are satisfied?
This kind of issue is common in so many aspects of life.
Even if Covid 19 was fake - and I'm not sure that it was - that is no reason to blindly go back to the way things were before.
dave2010
17-09-2020, 19:20
Some good points there Dave,
Air travel is a very real problem, eg, the ability to jump on a plane and go to another country thousands of miles away cheaper than a return ticket from wales to london is IMO just wrong! :scratch:
We have to do a better job of looking after this world, or one day it realy will bite us on the Arse for sure...:doh:Arguably even in the UK ... it's often cheaper for me to fly from the local airport to see my friends in London, than to drive or take the train. That's only about 500 miles by air or maybe 600 by road. Planes will, of course fly further if they circle airports to get a landing slot, which happens quite a lot. It takes about 5 hours all in - versus more than 10 hours by surface transport.
Mikeandvan
17-09-2020, 20:36
Whether cases are up as a result of more testing or not is not so much of a concern. Fact is that deaths are way down from the high point back in May/June, this is such a relief, hopefully it will stay this way, and this disease will just fade away or become something we are not so alarmed by such as flu. Lets hope the Chinese aren't cooking up a new batch of something hideous............
dave2010
18-09-2020, 05:56
I watched it. It seems very credible.
I am concerned that one of our commentators seems to have walked away from the discussion (Sherwood - Geoff - last post noted 4039). Not also helped by comments from Marco about "behaving like a girl" - not exactly PC comments these days. Geoff makes the point that the video which appears to downplay the way Covid 19 is spreading is "merely" a curve fitting exercise and is based on ideas which have little predictive power. Geoff also made reference to IHME and work there, but it would be useful to have links to the latest views from that organisation. It is indeed the case that some modelling approaches can fit data very well, but have very limited generalisation power, so are effectively poor for prediction. Trying to differentatiate between models/theories which fit current data and also have significant predictive capabilities requires more work.There was also mention of a rise in patients on ventilators - which is a slightly worrying and unwanted trend.
Although the video mentioned seems credible, it could be a mistake to assume that it tells the whole story, or replaces other views presented by public health officials.
To be fair, Dave, Geoff said that he was leaving the discussion before I made that remark.
It was of course tongue-in-cheek, but I stand by everything else I said about folk posting stuff (whatever it may be) and then saying 'This is my last post'. There is no need to announce that. It's childish, and simply smacks of attention seeking (stropping off because you don't like what's being said), which if true, I have no time for.
If someone no longer wishes to contribute to a discussion, then there is no need to announce it; just simply stop contributing to said discussion. Simples:)
Anyway, I'll get to your earlier post after breakfast, as like Anthony said, you've made a few good points:cool:
Marco.
I am concerned that one of our commentators seems to have walked away from the discussion (Sherwood - Geoff - last post noted 4039). Not also helped by comments from Marco about "behaving like a girl" - not exactly PC comments these days. Geoff makes the point that the video which appears to downplay the way Covid 19 is spreading is "merely" a curve fitting exercise and is based on ideas which have little predictive power. Geoff also made reference to IHME and work there, but it would be useful to have links to the latest views from that organisation. It is indeed the case that some modelling approaches can fit data very well, but have very limited generalisation power, so are effectively poor for prediction. Trying to differentatiate between models/theories which fit current data and also have significant predictive capabilities requires more work.There was also mention of a rise in patients on ventilators - which is a slightly worrying and unwanted trend.
Although the video mentioned seems credible, it could be a mistake to assume that it tells the whole story, or replaces other views presented by public health officials.
I would have been happy for Geoff to make a proper critique of the video, if it is wrong then let's hear why. I'm happy to learn. But his criticism was nothing more than an appeal to authority, and that carries no weight.
Even if we disregard most of what is said in the presentation the comparison of the overall death rates in the European countries of previous years to this year, showing that overall there is no appreciable change in the number of deaths surely needs addressing? We have been sold on the idea that the death rate from C=19 is unprecedented and this does not seem to be true.
I watched it. It seems very credible.
However, do we really all now want to resume the crazy ways of life some of us had before - even if the video turns out to be largely true?
For examples - pointless commuting each day into offices.
Too much road traffic. Too much air traffic.
.
At the company I work for, at least in the department I work for, they have found that absenteeism is down and productivity is up. Consequently they are seriously considering continuing home working, possibly 5 days a week and almost certainly for 3 days a week with the staff on rotation into a much smaller office. If you consider that not renting an office is saving the company a couple of hundred grand a year it would be an odd decision to return to normal completely.
The most impressive difference with lockdown was the increase in air quality. Will depend on where you live but where I am air quality is generally poor and very poor in the spring and summer. The difference with a 90% reduction in road traffic bordered on the unbelievable. It would be fantastic if there was some way we could have that back without impact on the economy.
dave2010
18-09-2020, 08:38
At the company I work for, at least in the department I work for, they have found that absenteeism is down and productivity is up. Consequently they are seriously considering continuing home working, possibly 5 days a week and almost certainly for 3 days a week with the staff on rotation into a much smaller office. If you consider that not renting an office is saving the company a couple of hundred grand a year it would be an odd decision to return to normal completely.
The most impressive difference with lockdown was the increase in air quality. Will depend on where you live but where I am air quality is generally poor and very poor in the spring and summer. The difference with a 90% reduction in road traffic bordered on the unbelievable. It would be fantastic if there was some way we could have that back without impact on the economy.Absolutely agree with the comments re work and doing home working, and also about air quality.
Productivity and output does seem to go up with home working, though I think long term fatigue may set in. It makes sense for more firms to encourage home working, and even try to improve it. Many of us are communicating using laptops, desktops with cameras, but maybe if this is to become more mainstream, better audio and video systems should be used.
I suspect that some people are becoming too focused on work, and this is not really good for them in the long term. However, reducing commuting would be a very good thing in some parts of the UK. If one has to commute, it would be pleasanter if that at least meant getting a seat on a train - though maybe railway company profits would go down. I don't see that we have to act in ways simply in order to keep some company profits up - for example sandwich bars and railways, airlines, aircraft manufacturers and travel companies, though there are issues to address there.
Noise is also a factor - and I have noticed a very significant increase in noise due to the road outside and increased traffic in the last month. In terms of pollution, where we now live pollution is likely to be low, even with petrol cars, but I do wish the cars were a bit quieter. I need to do a test with our EVs now, to see how noisy they are when driven past our house. I suspect that from the roadside they are a lot quieter.
I found this article from the Atlantic - which presents a fairly comprehensive view of the USA's approach to Covid - The article attempts to analyse what the USA has done - or not done - https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...winter/616204/
I suspect that the article could also reflect what has been going on in the UK too. It's difficult to know what to do. Some of the "facts" in the video mentioned earlier seem to be correct - but it might still be too early to claim that various official interventions haven't worked. We do not have the luxury of multi-populations so that we can do controlled testing of different strategies, and although country comparisons may give some clues, for many reasons those are also imperfect.
There is much more known about Covid 19 now than there was at the beginning of the year, but we would probably be foolish to think we know it all, and it is now safe to crawl out of the woodwork.
These have been interesting times!
Absolutely agree with the comments re work and doing home working, and also about air quality.
Productivity and output does seem to go up with home working, though I think long term fatigue may set in. It makes sense for more firms to encourage home working, and even try to improve it. Many of us are communicating using laptops, desktops with cameras, but maybe if this is to become more mainstream, better audio and video systems should be used.
I suspect that some people are becoming too focused on work, and this is not really good for them in the long term. However, reducing commuting would be a very good thing in some parts of the UK. If one has to commute, it would be pleasanter if that at least meant getting a seat on a train - though maybe railway company profits would go down. I don't see that we have to act in ways simply in order to keep some company profits up - for example sandwich bars and railways, airlines, aircraft manufacturers and travel companies, though there are issues to address there.
Noise is also a factor - and I have noticed a very significant increase in noise due to the road outside and increased traffic in the last month. In terms of pollution, where we now live pollution is likely to be low, even with petrol cars, but I do wish the cars were a bit quieter. I need to do a test with our EVs now, to see how noisy they are when driven past our house. I suspect that from the roadside they are a lot quieter.
I found this article from the Atlantic - which presents a fairly comprehensive view of the USA's approach to Covid - The article attempts to analyse what the USA has done - or not done - https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...winter/616204/
I suspect that the article could also reflect what has been going on in the UK too. It's difficult to know what to do. Some of the "facts" in the video mentioned earlier seem to be correct - but it might still be too early to claim that various official interventions haven't worked. We do not have the luxury of multi-populations so that we can do controlled testing of different strategies, and although country comparisons may give some clues, for many reasons those are also imperfect.
There is much more known about Covid 19 now than there was at the beginning of the year, but we would probably be foolish to think we know it all, and it is now safe to crawl out of the woodwork.
These have been interesting times!
The Atlantic article link just gives me a 'page not found' error.
Agree two benefits of EV is the lack of (local) pollution and the lack of engine noise. I'd guess if only 50% of vehicles on the road were electric that would have a huge impact on air quality and noise.
Likewise if just 50% of people who can do their jobs from home continued to do so that would also have a major impact.
There's the issue of businesses serving business districts like sandwich bars and suchlike going bust, but times change and certain businesses do become obsolete, it's just the way of things. Old opportunities disappear and new ones take their place. When the car arrived a lot of business connected with horses went broke, when airplanes arrived the transatlantic liner business came to an end, and so on.
I think the worst thing we could do would be to try to artificially prop up outmoded businesses. Better to put the effort into encouraging their replacements.
mad-moon
20-09-2020, 01:14
Northeast of England, local lockdown ...is an absolute f******g farce, it's laughable...this will do nothing,
dave2010
20-09-2020, 04:35
FT has a Bluffer's Guide on coronavirus risks - https://www.ft.com/content/176b9bbe-56cf-4428-a0cd-070db2d8e6ff
There is also an article about why and how Sweden is different and its state epediomologist - https://www.ft.com/content/5cc92d45-fbdb-43b7-9c66-26501693a371
Northeast of England, local lockdown ...is an absolute f******g farce, it's laughable...this will do nothing,
I know. It's utter bullshit.
The natives are continuing their unrest: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/19/police-warn-anti-vax-and-anti-lockdown-protesters-to-disperse-or/
"We are the resistance!" Love it!! And it will only get worse, the more draconian measures are imposed to unjustly control people's freedoms... If it keeps up, a full-scale rebellion is imminent.
LONG LIVE PEOPLE POWER!! :more::more:
Marco.
dave2010
20-09-2020, 09:55
The Atlantic article link just gives me a 'page not found' error.
Try this https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/pandemic-intuition-nightmare-spiral-winter/616204/
Agree two benefits of EV is the lack of (local) pollution and the lack of engine noise. I'd guess if only 50% of vehicles on the road were electric that would have a huge impact on air quality and noise.
Likewise if just 50% of people who can do their jobs from home continued to do so that would also have a major impact.
There's the issue of businesses serving business districts like sandwich bars and suchlike going bust, but times change and certain businesses do become obsolete, it's just the way of things. Old opportunities disappear and new ones take their place. When the car arrived a lot of business connected with horses went broke, when airplanes arrived the transatlantic liner business came to an end, and so on.
I think the worst thing we could do would be to try to artificially prop up outmoded businesses. Better to put the effort into encouraging their replacements.Yes - we had discussions like that in Thatcher's time. Some of the things she effectively shut down made sense - to go - but we also felt that her approach was like administering poison to everyone, and only the really fit would survive.
Trying to bolster up businesses to keep things "as they were" seems a really bad idea. A lot of this coronavirus business isn't good, but if people's behaviour changes so that they can have better lives, what's wrong with that? I don't really care if a lot of the airline business goes under, even though I use flights sometimes.
A worry is that big business - rich people etc., will carry on regardless, and the poor and relatively impoverished at the bottom of the pile will really struggle. I think that is something that government "thinks" about, but doesn't really feel or understand.
Pigmy Pony
20-09-2020, 10:53
Just heard that Anita's dad's next door neighbours went for a Covid test as the wife was feeling a bit unwell. They queued for one and a half hours before deciding 'sod this' and leaving. Imagine their surprise when the next day they were informed that their test results were 'positive'. What's that all about?
They asked their cousin (who's a nurse) who should they speak to about this, to which she replied "I wouldn't bother, this is happening a lot".
Mikeandvan
20-09-2020, 11:42
Good on Sweden, shame they don't have a sensible approach to multi-culti though.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/swedens-crime-problem-has-become-too-big-to-ignore
Just heard that Anita's dad's next door neighbours went for a Covid test as the wife was feeling a bit unwell. They queued for one and a half hours before deciding 'sod this' and leaving. Imagine their surprise when the next day they were informed that their test results were 'positive'. What's that all about?
They asked their cousin (who's a nurse) who should they speak to about this, to which she replied "I wouldn't bother, this is happening a lot".
So, just to be clear, was she implying that they're fiddling the figures or what? If it's the former, then it needs properly investigated and exposed as corruption! I have ZERO tolerance for that shite.
Also, how did they get their details to contact them - did they already have them before they attempted to get a test?
Marco.
Not corruption, but incompetence.
Yes, that seems to be the REAL epidemic!! ;)
The problem is, all this 'incompetence' is rather convenient if you sign up to my theories on the matter, and regardless of that, could have dire consequences if they tip the balance of positives cases to the point that it triggers another national lockdown!:doh:
In that respect, I sincerely hope that whoever's 'incompetence' was responsible for the error is suitably punished, i.e the person (or persons) sacked. I know if it had been me in the situation Steve explained, I wouldn't have rested until I got to the bottom of the balls up - as trust me when it comes to that kind of stuff, I'm like a dog with a bone!!:trust:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
20-09-2020, 17:59
i suspect that she would have been implying incompetence, but as you say that still isn't good enough. I don't know what to believe any more, so from now on I'll believe nothing...
Exactly. How can the government hope to instill confidence in people, in terms of them supposedly knowing what they're doing, and most importantly folk complying with their rules, when they're behaving like a bunch of clueless clowns?:doh:
So no wonder folks are thinking 'Fuck this, I'll do what *I* think is right' instead. In the circumstances, with all the 'clear as mud', mixed messages they're getting from the government, how can you blame them?
When you're a leader, you have to demonstrate leadership skills, as well as portraying consummate efficiency and professionalism - and I've seen precious little of that from this Tory government since this whole thing kicked off.
Indeed, they've largely been a shambles.
Marco
Some bloody sense in the mainstream media at last [definitely worth a read]: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/20/it-is-too-early-for-second-national-lockdown-ministers-warned/
And Sweden got it right!
:clap::clap::thumbsup:
Marco.
anthonyTD
21-09-2020, 11:14
Thats shocking Steve and very telling of what the posible objective might be for this testing farce !!! :doh:
Just heard that Anita's dad's next door neighbours went for a Covid test as the wife was feeling a bit unwell. They queued for one and a half hours before deciding 'sod this' and leaving. Imagine their surprise when the next day they were informed that their test results were 'positive'. What's that all about?
They asked their cousin (who's a nurse) who should they speak to about this, to which she replied "I wouldn't bother, this is happening a lot".
I see the thick-as-fuck chavs [obviously with diarrhea] are at it again with their panic buying: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/21/panic-buying-recommences-in-supermarkets-as-second-lockdown-spec/
What's in the heads of these fucking brain-dead mongols, apart from fresh air or fart gas?? :doh::mental::steam:
Marco.
walpurgis
21-09-2020, 17:50
The only shortages last time, were those caused by the morons. If everybody just shopped normally nothing would go wrong!
anthonyTD
22-09-2020, 11:00
Its all predictable, its an animal survival instinct built into everyone of us, initiated by fear, however; i would like to think that some of us have evolved enough to have realised that fixating on self preservation only leads to one thing, extinction! :doh:
Mikeandvan
22-09-2020, 22:18
Its all predictable, its an animal survival instinct built into everyone of us, initiated by fear, however; i would like to think that some of us have evolved enough to have realised that fixating on self preservation only leads to one thing, extinction! :doh:
Survival of the shittest.
Nah, the thick c*nts have got all the bog roll!:lol:
:mental::doh:
Anthony, there's ZERO condoning of that type of idiocy. If they possessed even a tiny part of ONE functioning neurone, they'd KNOW that there was equally ZERO chance of there being any food or shite-roll shortages!!
Therefore, panic-buying of that nature CANNOT remotely be justified by anyone deserving the title of a sentient and intelligent human being - and if they don't, I'd be at the front of the fucking queue, SLAPPING it into them until they BECAME so!!!:punch::punch:
Or... Fining the fuckers the value of five year's supply of oven chips from Farmfoods, banning them from buying scratchcards, suspending their Netflix accounts, and confiscating their 'flatscreen TVs and loyalty cards for Primark!:lol::D
Marco.
Everyone's answer to the pubs closing at 10pm...
https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/120062727_10221280905565772_1541368170108670886_n. jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_zDxiql2i-0AX9PbPPi&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&tp=6&oh=323a9209f2a346e4c84660ce49fb8bce&oe=5F8E3711
mad-moon
23-09-2020, 00:12
Everyone's answer to the pubs closing at 10pm...
https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/120062727_10221280905565772_1541368170108670886_n. jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=_zDxiql2i-0AX9PbPPi&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&tp=6&oh=323a9209f2a346e4c84660ce49fb8bce&oe=5F8E3711
Yip...get pissed out your head as quick as possible..then..at 10.00pm..go back to a pals...with 20 other pals who are also pissed out there heads and don't know what they are doing because they are so drunk..and have a covid party...
Well, if Brits weren't such rampant piss-heads in the first place, none of this would be a problem!:ner::D;)
Certainly the 10pm pub curfew will make hee-haw difference to me. I wouldn't be seen dead in some busy, rowdy pub, full of drunken louts - not even in 'normal' times!
Stay at Home > Shun Chavs > Stay Clean.
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
23-09-2020, 07:44
Well, if Brits weren't such rampant piss-heads in the first place, none of this would be a problem!:ner::D;)
Certainly the 10pm pub curfew will make hee-haw difference to me. I wouldn't be seen dead in some busy, rowdy pub, full of drunken louts - not even in 'normal' times!
Stay at Home > Shun Chavs > Stay Clean.
Marco.
:clapclapclap: Well said.
anthonyTD
23-09-2020, 08:37
:)
Stay at Home > Shun Chavs > Stay Clean.
Marco.
Back to my teens and Sunday hours - 12.00 to 14.00, my word we used to knock them back:cool:
I remember they used to be banging on the doors at 1200 on a Sunday. We used to put out popcorn and cheese as free bar snacks, that was their Sunday breakfast. Gone in seconds. Then onto the lager.
The old opening hours were much more civilised although I used to think they were stupid at the time.
Any decent pub would have a lock-in anyway. Beer always tastes better on a lock-in.
Lock in at my old local (many years ago); about one in the morning one of my mates went to the toilet, came out a few minutes later bollock naked with his clothes neatly folded in his arms ready for bed.
Bloody yob teenagers nowadays - bet they wouldn't fold their clothes :steam:
anthonyTD
23-09-2020, 13:50
:eek::lol::lol::lol:
Lock in at my old local (many years ago); about one in the morning one of my mates went to the toilet, came out a few minutes later bollock naked with his clothes neatly folded in his arms ready for bed.
Bloody yob teenagers nowadays - bet they wouldn't fold their clothes :steam:
mad-moon
23-09-2020, 14:13
Well, if Brits weren't such rampant piss-heads in the first place, none of this would be a problem!:ner::D;)
Certainly the 10pm pub curfew will make hee-haw difference to me. I wouldn't be seen dead in some busy, rowdy pub, full of drunken louts - not even in 'normal' times!
Stay at Home > Shun Chavs > Stay Clean.
Marco.
So you weren't at any of the NEBO's Then??
Lol - of course, but they were populated by daftees, not chavs!:D
I'm sure I met your good self, and primo daftee, at one, no?:eyebrows:
Marco.
Lol... Del's not keen on chavs, but she says you're a nice man:):D
Marco.
Meanwhile, if this is true, it's the best decision they've made since this whole thing kicked off: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2020/09/23/britain-moving-towards-sweden-s-approach-to-covid-19-says-leadi/
Marco.
anthonyTD
24-09-2020, 07:58
Meanwhile, a new boy band hits the scene!
Bksabath
25-09-2020, 07:05
I heard from a friend that just returned from holiday in Italy that results for random testing on arrival at the airport would only take 10 minutes
Is this true?
Why it takes at times 4 days to get the results here , provided one can get tested ?
Pigmy Pony
25-09-2020, 17:04
I heard from a friend that just returned from holiday in Italy that results for random testing on arrival at the airport would only take 10 minutes
Is this true?
Why it takes at times 4 days to get the results here , provided one can get tested ?
More efficient at airports because we don't want visitors thinking we're clueless.
Pigmy Pony
25-09-2020, 17:26
It looks like students aren't going to be allowed to go home, and will have to stay put. What will they do about all their dirty washing? This year we have seen "pop up" things - pop up testing stations, pop up cycle lanes, well how about pop-up launderettes? Located close to the universities, could be a money spinner.
Well they could hand wash them in Bath like I did, after I washed. It's not difficult. It's cheap and it works.
Lazy bassas
walpurgis
26-09-2020, 17:07
Thousands of students in Manchester just had a lockdown slapped on them with immediate effect. They'll have their work cut out enforcing that, the students in Edinburgh are already violating the rules at every opportunity.
Thousands of students in Manchester just had a lockdown slapped on them with immediate effect. They'll have their work cut out enforcing that, the students in Edinburgh are already violating the rules at every opportunity.
they are all heading home... daft as they are now going to screw up their families, not that that seems to bother them.
walpurgis
26-09-2020, 17:13
They are not allowed to leave university according to the news.
Pigmy Pony
26-09-2020, 17:15
they are all heading home... daft as they are now going to screw up their families, not that that seems to bother them.
They'll soon bog off back to their halls of residence when mum and dad are both laid up with Covid and there's nowt in the fridge...
Tbh all they have done since they went into uni is have parties, which they were instructed not to do. I've no sympathy for any of the ones who did. Selfish brats
Mikeandvan
26-09-2020, 21:14
Boris' tactic for beating off Coronavirus.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50387337562_8565262654_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jLygZm)BORIS 19 (https://flic.kr/p/2jLygZm) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/]
Just thought I'd examine the current stats to see whether the rise in all these new 'cases' we've been seeing now, for many weeks, have been developing into anything significantly more serious (i.e. deaths), and indeed if there was any emerging real justification for all the local lockdowns and increased restrictions currently being imposed on our population...
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/HayKGb.png
Source: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths
Deaths within 28 days of positive test:
Daily: 17 Total: 41,988.
Abstract information: Daily number of deaths of people who have had a positive test result and died within 28 days, reported on Sunday, 27 September 2020.
---------------------------
...thought not...:doh:
And of course, we've now entered the cold/flu season.
So when is this "massive second-wave" of the virus, a potentially deadly one, because of all these 'emerging new cases', likely to transpire...? I think we'll be in for a LONG wait!
And, more importantly, in the continued face of evidence showing that hardly anyone is dying from this virus, just how long will the government be able to justify their current actions??
Marco.
That's deaths but what about cases requiring hospitalization?
Very few people die from it but if cases requiring hospital treatment rose to a level that overwhelmed the system that would be a big problem and more would die.
So if you consider the purpose of lockdown etc is to prevent the health services from being overwhelmed then the lockdowns and other measures do make some sense.
Also you have to consider local capacity. There may well be spare treatment facilities in Edinburgh but that's not much use if you have more cases than you can handle down in Exeter.
I hear what you're saying, but doubt there is any reliable data on current hospitalisations, so arguing that point would largely be fruitless.
My main point is that there has been no REAL 'second wave' (nor do I suspect to see one), which will emulate (or worsen) the situation we had in March and April, both in terms of deaths and hospitalisations.
And watch this space, I predict that there simply won't be, even into November and December, increased flu cases and associated deaths, exacerbated by Covid, excepting. If that turns out to be true, do you still think that the current lockdowns and restrictions will remain in place?
Btw, I refreshed the previous link, and daily deaths at today's date have fallen to 13.
Marco.
There is data for hospitalizations, here it is for England:
https://i.ibb.co/Prt85JJ/Capture.jpg (https://ibb.co/Rg7WCtt)
I suspect that recent upward trend is what is concerning them. As i said it isn't a case of overall capacity, but local capacity. If you have a local outbreak and hundreds need to go to hospital then local service would be overwhelmed, even if there was plenty of capacity in the system as a whole. Hence the policy of local lockdowns.
Sure I get that, but is said upward trend *solely* to do with Covid, or does it also reflect increased cases of flu (as we're now in the flu season), which have resulted in hospitalisations of the most vulnerable, and therefore is reflected in the stats?
I'm simply not convinced that the current measures being taken are justified, based on the overall impact that the actual virus is having on the population, either in terms of hosoitalisations, and certainly deaths.
So at what point, I wonder, if it becomes clear, despite the current level of cases, and small upward trend in hospitalisations, that hospitals are NOT being overwhelmed (and I predict that they'll cope just fine), will the government reduce the current restrictions?
I'd love to hear from folks who have friends or family working in hospitals, in terms of *exactly* what's happening now on the 'shop floor', as it were, in the REAL WORLD, not what seems like bullshit government over-reaction, based on woolly predictions and fear-mongering.
Marco.
Sure I get that, but is said upward trend *solely* to do with Covid, or does it also reflect increased cases of flu (as we're now in the flu season), which have resulted in hospitalisations of the most vulnerable, and therefore is reflected in the stats?
.
It's just showing hospitalizations for Covid.
I'd imagine that the government would like nothing better than to announce the end of all restrictions. The sooner they do that the sooner the economy recovers. Only 4 more years to the next election and you don't win elections in a poor economy.
You have to presume that the expert advice they are getting is to not do that yet.
Whilst I agree that prima face current policy does look to be erring a little too far on the safe side, we don't have all the data and we're not experts in the field.
It's just Whilst I agree that prima face current policy does look to be erring a little too far on the safe side, we don't have all the data and we're not experts in the field.
Yes I agree. It would be good though to hear from anyone who knows *exactly what is happening* now in hospitals [how many new Covid-related admissions they're seeing daily], either through working there themselves or knowing someone who does.
Personally, I'd pay far more attention to that than I would the, IMO, exaggerated situation currently being painted by the government and media.
Marco.
It's in that graph I posted. Roughly 250 a day in England at the moment.
What we don't know is how many they can comfortably cope with but there will be a limit. Breach that and you start to get serious problems including increased death rate because triage kicks in at that point.
If the government were to abolish all restrictions and that happened it would be a field day for their opponents and the experts would all say 'Well we told them not to.' That would be the PM resigns time.
That's why they are walking this tightrope with it.
It's in that graph I posted. Roughly 250 a day in England at the moment.
As I said, I'd trust real-world reports from folks 'on the coal face', as it were, more than any graphs, the data responsible for collating which could be as 'accurate' or reliable as some of the current testing for cases!;)
That said, I essentially agree with what you're saying.
Mar
It's all a lot worse for you than it is for me because you like to go out and do stuff whereas I'm not bothered. Plus I have work all day anyway and after that I'm not in the mood for doing much except zoning out with some music or the telly.
Different story when I was young though, and the youngsters I know are used to being out the house 'doing stuff' 6 nights out of 7. You're only young once and I so can see - and understand why they are the demographic paying the least attention to the rules.
Indeed, on both counts. There's got to be more to life than just working and monging out on the sofa though mate, and I certainly intend on living it.
You should watch with all this '50 going on 70' outlook of yours, as it could end up biting you on the arse... Nothing worse than being old before your time - my dad's more active than you!:ner:;)
Marco.
Maybe it's genetic then? My old man never did anything except work and watch the telly after he turned 40. He didn't do that much more before 40, thinking about it.
He hated going anywhere and doing anything. Occasionally he'd go down the club for a few pints. And the football every other Saturday during the season. But that was it.
He did take up golf but that was after he retired and had a lot more time to fill.
Lol - no worries... We're all different. As long as you're happy, that's all that matters. I do know, however, that if you start telling your body (and mind) that you're old, even when you're not, then by default, they (and therefore you) will become old.
It's a proven fact.
Marco.
I don't feel old. I still live pretty much like I did when I was twenty, still listen to the same music, watch the same sort of TV shows and films. I still hang out with some of the same people I did then.
Anyway - the engine might have lost a few horsepower over the years, and the interior's got a bit of wear on it, but there's no rust problems. :)
Much of the lack of hospitalisation and deaths are in part due to the interventions perhaps.
Lol - no worries... We're all different. As long as you're happy, that's all that matters. I do know, however, that if you start telling your body (and mind) that you're old, even when you're not, then by default, they (and therefore you) will become old.
It's a proven fact.
Marco.
You are so right about keeping a "young state of mind" ..keeping mentally active with a positive outlook goes a long way towards our personal longevity, add to that a level of physical activity that isn't too far below our prior life's level and we have a receipe for a much longer lifespan than "sitting down & putting our feet up" waiting for the end ...this audio hobby we all have on here is one of life's positives as is indeed the community that AOS has created by existing in the first place .... Long live AOS and all who sale on her...
Much of the lack of hospitalisation and deaths are in part due to the interventions perhaps.
Perhaps mate, but I doubt it. It's not reducing the infection rate though, is it, which is driving their decisions to [unjustifiably, IMO] impose the current lockdowns and restrictions. Anyway, the MOST important thing is that the death rate continues to remain low, for whatever reason, and long may that continue!
A key change for me though, in the media's reporting of this 'pandemic', is that for the first time in about six months, when I open my emails and click on 'AOL Today', for the latest world news, the headlines feature NO mention of Coronavirus - and that's been the case now for days... Whereas before I was getting continually BOMBARDED with it - and I mean hourly!
It's now mostly about the forthcoming US election, replete with anti-Trump propaganda (and just normal everyday news), which is a sure sign of what's now considered as more important!;)
Marco.
The only reason that would happen is if Covid stories are getting less clicks. Presumably people are bored of reading the same thing over and over again.
The MSN feed still has some Covid stories but they are vastly outnumbered by other stuff, including one about what's happening on 'Home And Away.'
Top stories - 2 anti-Trump and 1 Covid (deaths top one million)
Don't think I have ever seen a pro-Trump article on there. There's also far more links to Guardian stories (and I use the word story deliberately) than to any other newspaper which does make me wonder about the claims that the media is 'right wing.'
The only reason that would happen is if Covid stories are getting less clicks. Presumably people are bored of reading the same thing over and over again.
Indeed, and also because, in the grand scheme of things, there are now more important things happening around the world.
But the anti-Trump propaganda is rife simply because 'certain people' in high places will do everything in their power [legal or illegal] to prevent him from winning this election, just as they tried last time and failed...
And I believe that they will fail again, but only after a very bloody battle!
Marco.
Perhaps mate, but I doubt it. It's not reducing the infection rate though, is it, which is driving their decisions to impose the current lockdowns and restrictions. Anyway, the MOST important thing is that the death rate continues to remain low, for whatever reason, and long may that continue!
A key change for me though, in the media's reporting of this 'pandemic', is that for the first time in about six months, when I open my emails and click on 'AOL Today', for the latest world news, the headlines feature NO mention of Coronavirus - and that's been the case now for days... Whereas before I was getting continually BOMBARDED with it - and I mean hourly!
It's now mostly about the forthcoming US election, replete with anti-Trump propaganda (and just normal everyday news), which is a sure sign of what's now considered as more important!;)
Marco.
figures i saw were more that the areas that had been acted upon were leveling and reducing while other areas are now increasing.. my region is now higher than glasgow, which has never been before.
overall tho i believe that we will just have to live with it as a country while trying to both protect or abandon the "at risk" and try and keep local high spots from getting out of control.
As far as i can see, a general public vaccine if one becomes available wont be able to be used in bulk for perhaps another year plus due to shortages of materials and transport
Bet you $750 he’s out on his arse in November :D
Indeed, and also because, in the grand scheme of things, there are now more important things happening around the world.
But the anti-Trump propaganda is rife simply because 'certain people' in high places will do everything in their power [legal and illegal] to prevent him from winning win this election, just as they tried last time and failed...
And I believe that they will fail again, but only after a very bloody battle!
Marco.
We'll see... And if he isn't, sweetheart, you better BE READY for me letting you ALL know about it [in NO uncertain terms]!!:ner::ner::lol::D
;)
Marco.
figures i saw were more that the areas that had been acted upon were leveling and reducing while other areas are now increasing.. my region is now higher than glasgow, which has never been before.
overall tho i believe that we will just have to live with it as a country while trying to both protect or abandon the "at risk" and try and keep local high spots from getting out of control.
As far as i can see, a general public vaccine if one becomes available wont be able to be used in bulk for perhaps another year plus due to shortages of materials and transport
Yeah, sure. The most important thing though is that any action taken from now on is justified and proportional [based on unbiased scientific evidence], at any given time, to the REAL level of threat that the virus is presenting to the population, free from any agendas, political or otherwise!
And also, *unless* we return to the situation we saw in March and April, when there GENUINELY was an epidemic, that the main focus now is on getting life back to normal, as much as possible, for the overwhelming vast majority of the population who are/have been unaffected by this virus [but not the knock-on effects financially or in terms of restricted levels of freedom, due to actions taken by the authorities to fight it], whilst shielding the most vulnerable who are susceptible to its virulence.
As I said before, I'm very confident that this will largely all be over in six months time, and for me it can't come quickly enough, as I'm sick to my back teeth hearing about the bloody thing!!:doh:
Marco.
Deal.
And when Covids still with us in 6 months I'll...
...worry.
i expect him to win. not the popular vote but win enough seats. his supporters dont really care about what he does or what he will or has done...just that he keeps the dems out.
as for bidden, he has really failed to muster a proper attack of policy etc, he is playing the man, not the ball.
First Presidential Debate starts tonight.
Gloves will be off, worth watching as it'll be mano etc mano, no media spin.
Played out in real time.
Will Trump show up?
What's the best channel to watch it on?
Marco.
Deal.
And when Covids still with us in 6 months I'll...
...worry.
It'll never fully go away mate, as no coronavirus ever does, but by that time, it'll cease being the problem it currently is. And life will go on largely as it once did, before all this fucking depressing pish happened... :trust:
Marco.
Stryder5
29-09-2020, 09:36
Anyone read this.
https://brownmath.com/stat/falsepos.htm
Gary
i expect him to win. not the popular vote but win enough seats. his supporters dont really care about what he does or what he will or has done...just that he keeps the dems out.
as for bidden, he has really failed to muster a proper attack of policy etc, he is playing the man, not the ball.
I agree, and also the fact that he's an even bigger balloon than Trump!:D
As I've said before, I AM NOT a Trump supporter; I'm a supporter of ANYONE or ANYTHING [no matter who or what] that fucks up the odious functions of the elite!!
So if [I suspect WHEN] Biden loses royally, I'll be giving him, and the sub-human scum who control him [and whom he represents], a HUGE virtual 'GET IT RIGHT UP YE' salute!
:upyours::finger:
Marco.
Anyone read this.
https://brownmath.com/stat/falsepos.htm
Gary
Most interesting, Gary! And of course those facts are never properly publicised.
Marco.
It'll be on YouTube Marco.
PBS channel probably.
It'll be on YouTube Marco.
PBS channel probably.
It's on CNN live. Doesn't start until 0200 our time though.
thing that is annoying is they say its not all students due to the rise but majority are under 25.. they wont give student numbers as they are scared to admit they cocked up
If this guy was running the country and making the decisions, we'd be in a far better place now (the interview was originally broadcast in May, but as we're entering phases of Lockdown again (albeit for the time being locally, not nationally, the points he's making are still very relevant):
https://youtu.be/Qd5sF1ZP0IY
Everyone should watch this video, as he talks a LOT of sense!
Marco.
And if you don't want to watch the 30-odd minutes of the above video, then watch this 8-min long one instead, where he ROASTS a 'BBC News, agenda-programmed robot' on the subject, whilst making some extremely salient points:
https://youtu.be/SJPF5j129QQ
Hear, hear, Lord S.... 'Dems da FACTS!
:clapclapclap:
Marco.
Interesting that her only objection to his perfectly well-reasoned argument is that people will not be capable of making their own decision as to whether to take the risk.
Classic example of middle-class lefty 'nanny-state' thinking - ordinary people are too thick to make decisions for themselves, they need to be treated like children, told what to do, and punished if they disobey. You can see who the real fascists are.
Exactly, mate. Who the REAL fascists are is patently obvious! The fact is, you simply *cannot* create a risk-free world, through continually imposing draconian controls upon the population, or indeed via any other means. So ultimately, you HAVE to learn to live alongside viruses and diseases, which are part of human existence, whilst still functioning as free-thinking human beings, otherwise the very fabric of society as we know it would be torn apart.
In that respect, the key point he made, and which I've highlighted, is that we CANNOT continue to allow the state to TAKE CONTROL of our basic HUMAN RIGHTS, by allowing them to make all the key decisions which impact on that - and ultimately on our freedoms, in what is supposedly a democratic and FREE (not state controlled) country!!
And btw, that includes the notion of making any vaccine that's released mandatory, as has oft been mooted, and so far not ruled out by the government... Quite simply, NOTHING could possibly qualify more as an infringement of our human rights, than if that ever becomes law, as such an immoral infringement of such should NEVER be allowed to occur in any truly free or civilised society.
And it must NEVER be allowed to happen, as the potential consequences are frightening, should the authorities be allowed to FORCE people to inject something into their veins that *could potentially* be harmful, you just never know with these things and how people may react to any vaccine that's largely still untested, then they'd have effectively been given carte blanche to do WHATEVER else they wanted in future!!
Why? Well, quite simply because there is nothing more personally invasive you can do to a human being than FORCE THEM to inject something into their bodies... Therefore, if the authorities got the green light to do that, after somehow justifying it, then forcing anything else upon the population in future would be a piece of cake!
That's why if mandatory vaccines to fight this virus (voluntary is a very different matter) ever become a serious proposal - WE MUST FIGHT IT with all our might, or life will never be the same again, in terms of the freedoms we've all taken for granted here in the UK, as the state would gain more power to rule us than ever before, and the lockdowns we've seen recently, and the nannying of our behaviour and movements - and the control imposed on our lives by the state - will just be the tip of the iceberg....
:trust:
Marco.
Slow down there, Bald Eagle!
There isn't even a vaccine yet and there may well never be. Never mind it being compulsory to have it.
I think it is very unlikely to be compulsory. Even if they really wanted to make it compulsory there are a number of practical considerations that would make that pretty much impossible - cost, availability, and it being too difficult to enforce.
Slow down there, Bald Eagle!
There isn't even a vaccine yet and there may well never be. Never mind it being compulsory to have it.
I think it is very unlikely to be compulsory. Even if they really wanted to make it compulsory there are a number of practical considerations that would make that pretty much impossible - cost, availability, and it being too difficult to enforce.
Lol... I know - I'm simply pre-empting things!
*HOWEVER* mandatory vaccines should simply NOT be allowed in any FREE country, on the basis of its immorality alone, so it shouldn't even be discussed, let alone remain a possibility, however remote, as the government haven't ruled it out. Such measures should simply be completely off limits, on the grounds of a gross infringement of your human rights.
Did you ever think that they'd be able to imprison virtually the whole country with lockdowns before this epidemic struck us? I certainly didn't, so don't think they couldn't impose other such mandatory measures if they deemed it necessary (based their skewed/biased and largely illogical criteria)!
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT anti-vaccines (as long as they've been properly tested and *genuinely* safe); I'm anti anything of that nature becoming mandatory in a supposedly free and democratic country. To repeat what Lord Sumption said:
"It's up to US, NOT the state, to assess what risks we take with OUR own bodies..." And it should also be up to US what we PUT INTO our own bodies, or otherwise - and NO-ONE should EVER be allowed to FORCE us to do otherwise, under ANY circumstances. It's as simple as that!
And btw, as an aside, I'm delighted about MPs now being given a vote on the government's emergency coronavirus powers, and those powers (which they should never been allowed in the first place) now being subject to proper scrutiny, and also for how the speaker for the House of Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, lambasted BJ and his government for having treated the House with such contempt:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1341847/Boris-Johnson-news-Speaker-House-of-Commons-Sir-Lindsay-Hoyle-video-PMQs-latest
Well done! And also well done to the vociferous Tory back-benchers who have forced this action on the government and who have stood up to defend the democratic process, thus curbing the government's authoritarian excesses. People power at its best!
:clap::clap:
Marco.
Did you ever think that they'd be able to imprison virtually the whole country with lockdowns before this epidemic struck us? I certainly didn't, so don't think they couldn't impose other such mandatory measures if they deemed it necessary (based their skewed/biased and largely illogical criteria)!
.
They didn't imprison the whole country. There's no way to do that without putting the army on the streets with orders to shoot. Even then there would be nothing like enough manpower to forcibly lock down the whole country.
The lock down depended entirely on voluntary cooperation of the population, and they got that because people understood that it was necessary and so complied with it.
That wouldn't happen if a lockdown was brought in without good reason.
I doubt they would try either. They might though make it attractive.
Any attempts at enforcement I believe would be stopped. The Queen still has a fair amount of clout should she want to use it. The whole of the armed forces for a start
They didn't imprison the whole country. There's no way to do that without putting the army on the streets with orders to shoot. Even then there would be nothing like enough manpower to forcibly lock down the whole country.
The lock down depended entirely on voluntary cooperation of the population, and they got that because people understood that it was necessary and so complied with it.
That wouldn't happen if a lockdown was brought in without good reason.
Virtually imprison. During the national lockdown earlier this year, they effectively put the whole of the population under house arrest, with penalties imposed for non-compliance! That's a fact. And similar measures are starting to creep in again, although this time with far less real justification.
So if they can do something like that once, they can do it again, with vaccines or anything else, if they consider it justified. However, as I've said, thankfully this time round the government's proposed actions are rightly being properly scrutinised by sceptics and assessed for their justification.
And that needs to continue, with necessary pressure applied on the decision makers, rather than being allowed to run roughshod over the democratic process, in order to impose their will on the people - and most importantly this time be held fully accountable for any instances of gross incompetence!
Marco.
I doubt they would try either. They might though make it attractive.
Any attempts at enforcement I believe would be stopped. The Queen still has a fair amount of clout should she want to use it. The whole of the armed forces for a start
Do you really think the Queen would get involved, mate? I can't see it.
And with the use of technology now, how difficult do you think it would be for the government to penalise those who haven't been vaccinated (should a vaccine be released), say by preventing them from travelling around the country or abroad, or even being allowed into shops, thereby forcing them to comply, in order to preserve their freedom and survive?
Do you really think that's impossible and would never happen? The point being that they can still get what they want, without the need to send the police or army round [or other 'appointed government official'] to force a needle into your veins! It's simply another form of coercion to facilitate a mandatory policy.
Marco.
And with the use of technology now, how difficult do you think it would be for the government to penalise those who haven't been vaccinated (should a vaccine be released), say by preventing them from travelling around the country or abroad, or even being allowed into shops, thereby forcing them to comply, in order to preserve their freedom?
Do you really think that's impossible and would never happen? .
Extremely difficult if not impossible, and no, it would never happen. Aside from anything else, what would there be to gain from it? They'd just be pissing people off for no reason.
I can see some countries requiring some sort of certificate of vaccination before they will let people in though. Assuming there ever is a vaccine. So you might have problems going on holiday abroad if you don't get vaccinated. Of course if that was the case there would probably be a market in fake certificates.
I can see some countries requiring some sort of certificate of vaccination before they will let people in though. Assuming there ever is a vaccine. So you might have problems going on holiday abroad if you don't get vaccinated. Of course if that was the case there would probably be a market in fake certificates.
Exactly, and so what's to stop said 'certificate of vaccination' from being required, in order for people to be allowed to do all sorts of other things, under the guise of 'controlling the virus and potentially saving lives'?
That would be the 'gain', but to the severe detriment of our freedom and human rights!
Marco.
Exactly, and so what's to stop said 'certificate of vaccination' from being required, in order for people to be allowed to do all sorts of other things, under the guise of 'controlling the virus and potentially saving lives'?
That would be the 'gain', to the severe detriment of our freedom and human rights!
Marco.
That's the bit I don't get. What gain exactly?
You seem to think that the government has curtailing freedom and rights as its fundamental goal and covid just happens to be a convenient excuse to move along with that, whereas I don't see it as being one of their goals at all.
Even if it was it would never work, not in this country.
I've already explained what would be portrayed as the desired 'gain': to prevent the spread of the virus and potentially save lives, then take credit for it later, if it was seen as having paid off!
You've already [correctly] said that for any government it's all about winning elections and staying in power, so what better vote winner than being seen as the 'saviour of the people', in having successfully protected them from this deadly virus?
I think you'd find that if a vaccine becomes available, the majority of population will avail of it, and subsequently take a dim view of those who don't, therefore supporting any measures taken to penalise them, as well as continuing to vote for the party who was seen as having 'saved' them.
Can you not follow that logic?
In terms of your last sentence, however, thankfully I think you're right!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
30-09-2020, 19:28
That's the bit I don't get. What gain exactly?
You seem to think that the government has curtailing freedom and rights as its fundamental goal and covid just happens to be a convenient excuse to move along with that, whereas I don't see it as being one of their goals at all.
Even if it was it would never work, not in this country.
True, who would enforce it? There aren't enough coppers to cope as things are, and with the country on its arse financially that's not going to change. And even in the remote likelihood of us being "nannied" thus, what would happen come election time? "Vote for us, and we'll do away with all this nonsense".
I've already explained, Steve, how coercion could be applied... Don't underestimate the likelihood of that (or something similar) happening.
However, you're right, the reality as it stands, is that if there were a general election now, the Tories would almost certainly lose, for the very reasons you've mentioned!
Marco.
So you are saying that failing to make the vaccine compulsory would make the Government less popular?
It certainly would with some people.
Thing is you have to vaccinate 68 million people, that's going to take years to complete.
Enough people will have it voluntarily to create herd immunity in any case. And as you said this morning, it's already disappearing from the headlines. When it's no longer news, people soon forget to be angry or worried about it.
Pigmy Pony
30-09-2020, 19:57
I think you'd find that if a vaccine becomes available, the majority of population will avail of it, and subsequently take a dim view of those who don't, therefore supporting any measures taken to penalise them, as well as continuing to vote for the party who was seen as having 'saved' them.
Marco.
Sorry, I am trying to picture how this would play out:
"Well, at first I was sceptical, but it's true - Boris and his little helpers really did save us, so they've got my vote! Oh look, here comes that dipshit who refused the vaccination, we're all virus-free now, no thanks to him. Let's scowl at him, show our disdain. Also I hear Morrisons are refusing to sell to anyone who doesn't have their up to date vaccination certificate".
I'm a smoker, I'm well used to folk taking a dim view of me. Bring it on! :) And bollocks to Morrisons and anyone else closing their doors to me, plenty of other places who know a business opportunity when they see one...
walpurgis
30-09-2020, 20:01
I've been certified already, so another bit of paper won't hurt. :D
So you are saying that failing to make the vaccine compulsory would make the Government less popular?
Partly, but mainly that if ANY of the decisions currently being taken by the government (including restrictions/controls imposed on our freedoms) are 'seen' (note not necessarily actually responsible) for successfully fighting the virus and 'saving' everyone, then people will continue to vote for them.
In a nutshell, that's the gain.
Thing is you have to vaccinate 68 million people, that's going to take years to complete.
What was that "moonshot" bollox BJ was on about?
Enough people will have it voluntarily to create herd immunity in any case. And as you said this morning, it's already disappearing from the headlines. When it's no longer news, people soon forget to be angry or worried about it.
Yes, that's what I'm hoping for (both)!
Marco.
People needing coronavirus tests have been sent to a centre in an area under local lockdown despite it being closed, according to local politicians.
MP Chris Bryant said the situation in Clydach Vale, near Tonypandy, Rhondda Cynon Taf (RCT), was an "utter farce."
The site is run by Serco and slots are booked via the UK government-run online system.
The UK government, which oversees most of Wales' coronavirus tests, said testing capacity increases daily.
All those who booked at the Clydach site were contacted and advised to go to an alternative site in Abercynon where they will be tested, a spokesman said.
These are the people who are supposedly running the country.. Couldn't run a snackbar..
InThe Sticks
01-10-2020, 20:40
SNP MP Margeret Ferrier has kinda flown in the face of anyone else and become a super spreader despite the advice.
I'm looking forward to Nipoleon defending that shit show.
dave2010
01-10-2020, 21:12
Thing is you have to vaccinate 68 million people, that's going to take years to complete.
Enough people will have it voluntarily to create herd immunity in any case. It’s probably only about 40-50 million people to start to get a reasonable level of so called herd immunity, but that’s still a lot of people, and way off what is achievable now, either by catching the disease or otherwise.
dave2010
01-10-2020, 21:14
Thing is you have to vaccinate 68 million people, that's going to take years to complete.
Enough people will have it voluntarily to create herd immunity in any case. It’s probably only about 40 million people to start to get a reasonable level of so called herd immunity, but that’s still a lot of people, and way off what is achievable now, either by catching the disease or otherwise.
Mikeandvan
01-10-2020, 21:31
They didn't imprison the whole country. There's no way to do that without putting the army on the streets with orders to shoot. Even then there would be nothing like enough manpower to forcibly lock down the whole country.
The lock down depended entirely on voluntary cooperation of the population, and they got that because people understood that it was necessary and so complied with it.
That wouldn't happen if a lockdown was brought in without good reason.
If the populous thought it was necessary then why did they need the government to tell them to wear masks in public? Or rather in shops, and cafes, but only you're at the counter, or why its ok to go to the pub, but they would have left at 10pm anyway, cos you know they all thought this was necessary, even though two weeks before they were going about life pretty much as normal.
SNP MP Margeret Ferrier has kinda flown in the face of anyone else and become a super spreader despite the advice.
I'm looking forward to Nipoleon defending that shit show.
Perhaps she was trying to get idependance and a "hard border" between Scotland and England rushed through parliament
If the populous thought it was necessary then why did they need the government to tell them to wear masks in public? Or rather in shops, and cafes, but only you're at the counter, or why its ok to go to the pub, but they would have left at 10pm anyway, cos you know they all thought this was necessary, even though two weeks before they were going about life pretty much as normal.
100% compliance was never going to happen, it never happens with anything. The fact is the vast majority complied.
Masks are not compulsory, face coverings are. Most masks and face coverings will do nothing or next to nothing. The whole 'mask' thing was to get people out and spending again once they realised that the situation was nothing like as bad as initially thought and the lockdown was killing the economy.
The 10pm pub closing is just another example of the government 'being seen to do something' to appease the pearl clutchers even though it's a pointless exercise.
It’s probably only about 40 million people to start to get a reasonable level of so called herd immunity, but that’s still a lot of people, and way off what is achievable now, either by catching the disease or otherwise.
True., my point was you don't need to vaccinate absolutely everyone for a vaccine to be effective, therefore there is no need to make it compulsory,
Perhaps she was trying to get idependance and a "hard border" between Scotland and England rushed through parliament
she was selfish and stupid.. it will cost her... although there may be mitigating circumstances, I doubt Nicola will try to do a Cummings job like Boris did.
walpurgis
02-10-2020, 08:18
she was selfish and stupid.. it will cost her... although there may be mitigating circumstances, I doubt Nicola will try to do a Cummings job like Boris did.
They should come down hard on people in influential positions who flout the rules. These are the ones who are expected to set an example!
she was selfish and stupid.. it will cost her... although there may be mitigating circumstances, I doubt Nicola will try to do a Cummings job like Boris did.
Absolutely right, her arrogance (a cross party condition in my view) was appalling.
I can't see how there are mitigating circumstances - two bloody long journeys by public transport when she knew the she had tested positive; makes walking to your local supermarket for a few cans when the pubs have shut look like a responsible action.
As much as Nicola gets on my nerves, I think that she will do her best to "get rid" but given the attitude demonstrated by Ms Ferrier so far that will just result in her remaining as an "independent".
Is it just me or are others suspicious of Donald's positive test?
My first thought was: he's lying - keeps him out of public gaffs for a couple of weeks, gets a certain amount of sympathy, explains his appalling performance in the "debate"/slagging match (I was fighting the infection at the time) and if he doesn't really have Covid he will appear to have been "man enough" to fight off this Chinese manufactured infection.
win win win - don't bother packing Melania, I've got another term :)
walpurgis
02-10-2020, 08:33
Is it just me or are others suspicious of Donald's positive test?
Well if he dies, we'll know he wasn't bullshitting!
sure it is most folks thoughts.. i think most thought/ think same re boris... guessing we may never really know.. easy enough to fake a test so it comes back pos.
Well if he dies, we'll know he wasn't bullshitting!
Ah, but think of the potential:
https://i.postimg.cc/63s8CjPn/donald.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
AJSki2fly
02-10-2020, 17:11
https://youtu.be/AG3cf6d6Wvk
Great news, Donald now understands the virus and will let us all know more soon :dance:
Pigmy Pony
06-10-2020, 17:09
Great news, Donald now understands the virus and will let us all know more soon :dance:
But does the virus understand Donald? He seems to be bouncing back rather quickly, I wonder what brand of disinfectant he injected himself with. My money's on Dettol.
But does the virus understand Donald? He seems to be bouncing back rather quickly, I wonder what brand of disinfectant he injected himself with. My money's on Dettol.
i wonder if he had it at all tbh
Pigmy Pony
06-10-2020, 17:36
i wonder if he had it at all tbh
Yes I'm wondering that too. His thinking could well be "I know, I'll 'contract the virus', then recover quickly, show the American public that it's no big deal".
Show the voting public that he is a strong man:)
pubs and cafes will be closed in central belt up here.. other areas will close at 6pm... well that will be final nail in most of the places coffins i guess. the sturgeon hates pubs and drinkers anyway i think.
is it nesessary?? not sure it is... they are finding lots of covid of course but is it because they are testing more? be interested to know... doesnt affect me anyway as i dont go out but feel for many cafes and such like
again as young have been socialising they have been catching it and its now being transferred to the older folk again... sadly i expect a load of older deaths again.
and you wonder why i stay indoors :doh:
Pigmy Pony
07-10-2020, 17:50
I heard this year anyone found going 'trick or treating' could be fined up to £1000. Best October ever! :)
Landloper
07-10-2020, 18:03
I heard this year anyone found going 'trick or treating' could be fined up to £1000. Best October ever! :)
£10,000 is the going rate the coppers impose. Not on each other though. I see them taking their breaks when I work a night shift. No face-nappies, no distancing. One rule for us &c...
rmcin626
07-10-2020, 18:17
pubs and cafes will be closed in central belt up here.. other areas will close at 6pm... well that will be final nail in most of the places coffins i guess. the sturgeon hates pubs and drinkers anyway i think.
is it nesessary?? not sure it is... they are finding lots of covid of course but is it because they are testing more? be interested to know... doesnt affect me anyway as i dont go out but feel for many cafes and such like
The new rules affect over half the population, and I would expect a lot of bars and restaurants not too reopen after this.
I heard this year anyone found going 'trick or treating' could be fined up to £1000. Best October ever! :)
So do they have a crystal ball, and are therefore able to see ahead in three weeks time that the current situation will still exist? How do they know that by then Covid case rates may have notably fallen, and therefore they'd be able to REDUCE restrictions, and such ridiculous impositions on people's freedoms?
Seems to me that the government much prefer using the stick than the carrot....!
Marco.
again as young have been socialising they have been catching it and its now being transferred to the older folk again... sadly i expect a load of older deaths again.
and you wonder why i stay indoors :doh:
But what do you expect when they've been told that they can socialise (within current rules), just to stay indoors and behave like monks? No chance. Even I haven't been doing that. I still want, and indeed insist upon, a social life! And even more so, Del.
Yes, I'll be careful and considerate when I'm out, and observe the rules, but I'm still going to enjoy myself, because I have a life and am not a freaking hermit:ner:;)
Also, what do you expect people to do when a) they're continually given confusing mixed messages from the government, and most importantly b) see government officials, especially idiots like Margaret Ferrier, showing complete arrogant contempt/disregard for the rules and just doing what they like?:doh:
That's not a responsible example to set! So folks are just going to say 'Fuck it, if you can break the rules, then so can I'...
Therefore, if you want to blame anyone for the current rise is cases and spreading of the virus, then blame the bloody government for acting like cocks and showing zero leadership skills!
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
07-10-2020, 19:07
How do they know that by then Covid case rates may have notably fallen, and therefore they'd be able to REDUCE restrictions, and such ridiculous impositions on people's freedoms?
They don't know, but things don't work like that. In the same way that a smart motorway sign will never say "Motorway nearly empty, feel free to go like the clappers" :( It looks to me that the infection rates around the country are varying despite, rather than because of, government's local restrictions.
My life: sleep, work, telly, sleep, work... and I'm one of the lucky ones
The new rules affect over half the population, and I would expect a lot of bars and restaurants not too reopen after this.
Indeed, and the idiots are penalising the wrong people!:doh:
The main source for the rise in cases isn't pubs or restaurants, the majority of which have fully complied with the rules (and been very stringent in doing so too, in order to trade), and consequently are far safer than being inside someone's house, other than your own, where such strict standards of cleanliness and compliance with hand washing, social distancing, etc, are unlikely to have been observed.
Therefore, it's groups of people socialising indoors in houses that have caused the spike in cases, but of course it's much easier to control the behaviour of pubs and restaurants, by imposing rules upon them and enforcing them, than it is with the former, so that's why the hospitality industry (easy targets) is unfairly copping it!:rolleyes:
Marco.
They don't know, but things don't work like that. In the same way that a smart motorway sign will never say "Motorway nearly empty, feel free to go like the clappers" :( It looks to me that the infection rates around the country are varying despite, rather than because of, government's local restrictions.
That's not the same though, and completely different from trying to control the spread of a virus, whose behaviour is ever-changing, and crucially how decisions made in that respect, impact on the WHOLE of the population!
It's bullshit. What you do instead is base your decisions on the prevailing circumstances at the time, not what they might be in 3 weeks. So there's simply no need yet for any decision to be made on how Halloween will be celebrated.
My life: sleep, work, telly, sleep, work... and I'm one of the lucky ones
Sounds thrilling... I might settle for than when I'm 70, of course without the work... But going on the social life my dad still enjoys at 87, maybe not!:ner:;)
Marco.
rmcin626
07-10-2020, 19:43
Indeed, and the idiots are penalising the wrong people!:doh:
The main source for the rise in cases isn't pubs or restaurants, the majority of which have fully complied with the rules (and been very stringent in doing so, in order to be able to trade), and consequently are far safer than being inside someone's house, where standards of cleanliness and strict compliance with hand washing, social distancing, etc, is unlikely to have been applied.
Therefore, it's groups of people socialising indoors in private houses that have caused the biggest rise in cases, but of course it's much easier to control the behaviour of pubs and restaurants, by imposing rules upon them and enforcing them, than it is with the former, so that's why the hospitality (easy targets) are unfairly copping it!:rolleyes:
Marco.
The rule of 6 has been ignored by certain groups of people, and closing the bars and restaurants wont change that, will probably just make it worse. We had planned a couple lunchtime meals but those will now be cancelled. It was clear this would be happening as the schools break for 10 days on Friday.
The rule of 6 has been ignored by certain groups of people, and closing the bars and restaurants wont change that, will probably just make it worse. We had planned a couple lunchtime meals but those will now be cancelled. It was clear this would be happening as the schools break for 10 days on Friday.
Much then like some authorities and members of the government have ignored the rules (Cummings, Ferrier, etc), so what do you expect the public to do when faced with such risible role models? I fully agree with your second point though, especially about making things worse!
In terms of your lunchtime meals mate, that's a pisser, but Nicola clearly doesn't want folk to have ANY fun!:doh:
Don't get me wrong, I'd be extremely sorry for anyone, old or otherwise, who unfortunately died as a result of someone infecting them with the virus, but the fact is, the REAL people to blame for that aren't the young, or anyone else still insisting on LIVING, rather than merely existing, but rather the behaviour of our supposed 'leaders'!
Marco.
The African Continent is a very good indicator as to how and why the virus is spreading and to who.. it has been, in general much better off even tho it has over a billion inhabitants. a good report here...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-54418613
Lack of testing, lack of adequate record keeping, fiddling the figures (see also: China) and the big one -which in fairness the article does mention - very few really old people, median population age is 19.
The article seems to read like a 'look how wonderful Africa is' propaganda piece.
Interestingly no mention of the theory that is being widely propagated here that those of non-Caucasian ethnicity are supposed to be 50% more likely to be badly affected by the virus...
Lack of testing, lack of adequate record keeping, fiddling the figures (see also: China) and the big one -which in fairness the article does mention - very few really old people, median population age is 19.
The article seems to read like a 'look how wonderful Africa is' propaganda piece.
Interestingly no mention of the theory that is being widely propagated here that those of non-Caucasian ethnicity are supposed to be 50% more likely to be badly affected by the virus...
think thats due to overcrowding to an extent and also the jobs many have, taking them into more dangerous positions especially in the first wave as ppe was very poor.
i think its fairly obvious that younger people are very much less likey to get it in a dangerous way. older populations throughout globe are the ones dying, and especially over 75/80..many of whom were perhaps not that long from dying anyway(not that that is any reason to let them catch it but just a fact) europe meridian age is early 40's which is fairly old..
oh and i never read into that any "africa is great"
think thats due to overcrowding to an extent and also the jobs many have, taking them into more dangerous positions especially in the first wave as ppe was very poor.
Yes quite possibly. There has been a suggestion that it is genetic though. Africa figures would seem to indicate that is a classic case of correlation not being causation. Assuming the figures are reliable which I do wonder about. It's not the most organised of continents.
Does anyone know why all the Nightingale hospitals that the Government has had built, at considerable cost, currently lying empty, aren't being used to house all (or as many as possible) of the Covid patients from around the country, subsequently freeing up beds/facilities and staff in the main hospitals to fulfil the backlog of cancer treatments and operations, etc?
That way, they'd have much less chance of 'becoming overwhelmed', even though that looks unlikely... Or is that too sensible?:hmm:
Marco.
Does anyone know why all the Nightingale hospitals that the Government has had built, at considerable cost, currently lying empty, aren't being used to house all (or as many as possible) of the Covid patients from around the country, subsequently freeing up beds/facilities and staff in the main hospitals to fulfil the backlog of cancer treatments and operations, etc?
That way, they'd have much less chance of 'becoming overwhelmed', even though that looks unlikely... Or is that too sensible?:hmm:
Marco.
Just 19 patients treated at 4,000-bed NHS Nightingale hospital in London over Easter weekend
Few patients were treated at new overflow facility as intensive care capacity at existing London hospitals never went above 80 per cent.
so just for show perhaps, or was it panic... a bigger question may be do they have staff for them.
The latter is a possibility, but the former just proves how much of a bollox all this panic over 'overwhelming the NHS' is!:doh::rolleyes:
Marco.
walpurgis
08-10-2020, 13:48
Far better to have it and not need it than the other way round.
Indeed, but the point is, they're saying that certain hospitals are already 'feeling the strain' of rising hospitalisations from Covid cases, which is preventing some important operations and cancer treatments from taking place, so why not move all the Covid patients into a Nightingale hospital, thus freeing up staff and facilities at said main hospitals to undertake other vital treatments, which are arguably just as important.
The fact is, just because Covid-19 is around, the rest of the world, as it were, doesn't stop turning....!
For me, it's absolutely ridiculous that urgent cancer treatment is being delayed (with potentially fatal consequences), because of the current priority for treating Covid patients, when there are 4000-bed Nightingale hospitals lying empty that could ably be utilised!!:doh:
Marco.
This is what I was saying before about local capacity being important. You can't just schlep critically ill people around the country to make space without risking killing them.
Pigmy Pony
08-10-2020, 18:19
Sounds thrilling... I might settle for than when I'm 70, of course without the work... But going on the social life my dad still enjoys at 87, maybe not!:ner:;)
Marco.
Tell me a little about the social life your dad still enjoys at 87, as it appears to be making me look like I've given up on life :( Then tell me what his social life would look like if he was enjoying the same restrictions we in Lancashire have put up with since early August.
Does anyone know why all the Nightingale hospitals that the Government has had built, at considerable cost, currently lying empty, aren't being used to house all (or as many as possible) of the Covid patients from around the country, subsequently freeing up beds/facilities and staff in the main hospitals to fulfil the backlog of cancer treatments and operations, etc?
That way, they'd have much less chance of 'becoming overwhelmed', even though that looks unlikely... Or is that too sensible?:hmm:
Marco. Don't tell the yoofs the nightingales are empty or there target em for a massive rave up !. I think they may have been mothballed..... whatever that means ?
London figures not too bad at mo. Camden did well in 1st wave which considering how mad ( busy ) it is was a big surprise.
This is what I was saying before about local capacity being important. You can't just schlep critically ill people around the country to make space without risking killing them.
indeed, but not everyone occupying a hospital bed with Covid is critically ill. Indeed the majority aren't, and could quite easily be transferred to an available Nightingale hospital, to free up space to facilitate all the other (equally important) critical treatments that people require.
Quite simply, the world shouldn't (and indeed can't) revolve around Covid-19!
Marco.
I think because the Nightingale hospitals are only set up to deal with Covid, they don't have the full range of treatments a proper hospital has.
If hospital was like in 'Carry On Doctor' where there's nothing much wrong with the patients and they just need a bed to lie in I suppose it would work but I doubt many real hospital patients come under that description.
Tell me a little about the social life your dad still enjoys at 87, as it appears to be making me look like I've given up on life :( Then tell me what his social life would look like if he was enjoying the same restrictions we in Lancashire have put up with since early August.
Indeed.
Just this Man's opinion, but thinking with a little more empathy/sensitivity to others and their situation can never a bad thing?
Lets beat this Shit situation together, end of the Day we're all the same and in it together.
Don't learn that lesson too late!
Lets help when we can, support and friendship are never dirty words.
Shits getting serious now, time to get our Game faces on. :thumbsup:
Tell me a little about the social life your dad still enjoys at 87, as it appears to be making me look like I've given up on life :( Then tell me what his social life would look like if he was enjoying the same restrictions we in Lancashire have put up with since early August.
Lol. well firstly, I'm not just talking about since the virus hit us, but before that too, so the restrictions you're referring to don't come into it, unless the life you outlined earlier differed markedly beforehand?;)
My dad's always been active and had an extended network of friends and family, especially when he lived in Scotland and was your age! Plus, back then when my mum was alive (who was even more of a social animal), they were never in, and for holidays regularly drove from Glasgow to the family holiday home in Tuscany.
However, down here he attends (or rather did before the pandemic) an indoor air-rifle shooting club, where he regularly took part in competitions, plus also a woodworking class, as he's always loved carpentry, and he holds (held) regular lunch parties for his friends from the church, who he also goes (went) out with on runs to the country, and of course he goes (went) out with me for pub lunches, and sometimes to watch Wrexham FC play:cool:
Aside from that, he has numerous hobbies, including gardening, which takes up a lot of his time, and when the weather's bad he likes playing tunes on his electric organ and making home-made jams and chutneys. The TV only gets watched when he's got nothing better to do...
Will that suffice?:)
Marco.
Gaz, I agree, but as I've just said, I'm talking about before this shit hit us, not only since:)
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
08-10-2020, 19:50
Lol. well firstly, I'm not just talking about since the virus hit us, but before that too, so the restrictions you're referring to don't come into it, unless the life you outlined having earlier differed markedly beforehand?;)
Marco.
Well of course my life earlier differed markedly, that IS the point I was making there - why else would I say it in the context of this thread? Believe it or not I actually had a pretty good social life before this, in fact I struggle to make time for all my mates, so I'm thinking of taking on a lad :) But not just now :(
I sort of thought this Covid might have brought people together, how naive is that?
Gaz, I agree, but as I've just said, I'm talking about before this shit hit us, not only since:)
Marco.
Hear you Amigo, and I know what you mean.
Some folk are scared, and it's a postcode lottery.
All about the balance... (no treble)
I think because the Nightingale hospitals are only set up to deal with Covid, they don't have the full range of treatments a proper hospital has.
Precisely! Have you been listening to what I've been saying, daftee? I said move the non-critically ill Covid patients (who represent the majority in hospitals) to Nightingales, which as you correctly say are, erm. set up to deal with Covid!
Marco.
Well of course my life earlier differed markedly, that IS the point I was making there - why else would I say it in the context of this thread? Believe it or not I actually had a pretty good social life before this, in fact I struggle to make time for all my mates, so I'm thinking of taking on a lad :) But not just now :(
I sort of thought this Covid might have brought people together, how naive is that?
No idea what you mean by that last sentence - is it meant to be a dig? Or what/whom exactly are you referring to? Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post, as the one you replied to from me was largely tongue-in-cheek!:ner:
Also, how long have these restrictions, with Covid, been imposed upon you, and remind me again of what exactly they are... So you're not allowed to go anywhere at all and have been forced to become a prisoner in your own home - is that what you're saying?
Marco.
Well of course my life earlier differed markedly, that IS the point I was making there - why else would I say it in the context of this thread? Believe it or not I actually had a pretty good social life before this, in fact I struggle to make time for all my mates, so I'm thinking of taking on a lad :) But not just now :(
I sort of thought this Covid might have brought people together, how naive is that?
I have got to know loads of my neighbours since it started. Most of the people who lived here when I moved in have left or died so I didn't know any of the new ones.
Any thoughts on post 4216?:)
Covid patients housed in specially designed Covid facilities seems eminently sensible to me, especially when they're currently lying empty!
Therefore, when folk require hospital treatment, they're taken directly to their nearest Nightingale unit, instead of a normal hospital, thereby leaving the latter free to deal with everything else. Simples.
Marco.
Any thoughts on post 4216?:)
Covid patients housed in specially designed Covid facilities seems eminently sensible to me, especially when they're currently lying empty!
Therefore, when folk require hospital treatment, they're taken directly to their nearest Nightingale unit, instead of a normal hospital, thereby leaving the latter free to deal with everything else. Simples.
Marco.
If they aren't doing that then I'd suspect there's a good reason for it rather than it's just that no-one has thought of it.
So what's the "good reason", other than the government (as has been shown throughout this pandemic), displaying a propensity for stupidity?
You're not hiding your Tory (BJ) fanboyism very well!:ner:;)
Marco.
Pierre De Grenoble
09-10-2020, 06:06
So what's the "good reason", other than the government (as has been shown throughout this pandemic), displaying a propensity for stupidity?
Marco.
it might have something to do with not having enough staff for both.
it might have something to do with not having enough staff for both.
Yes, wasn't the plan to use airline cabin crew to make up the numbers?
Might be fine at passing out booze, but how are they on bed pans?
So what's the "good reason", other than the government (as has been shown throughout this pandemic), displaying a propensity for stupidity?
You're not hiding your Tory (BJ) fanboyism very well!:ner:;)
Marco.
Firstly such a decision would not be made by politicians as it's actually an internal NHS administration issue. The NHS has a huge administration staff including people who are paid more than the PM. The reason being they are experts in their field and it is their job to solve these problems (if they are solvable) - not the politicians. Politicians do not manage any process in any aspect of government or administration. They just make policy, and they do that with the advice of the relevant people in that area, not in a vacuum.
For example setting up the Nightingale hospitals would be a policy decision by politicians, after that everything about the setting up, organisation and running of them is done by people who are not politicians.
Second we are not party to all the facts - it doesn't matter what the situation or field, if something that appears to be obvious isn't being done then there is almost always a good reason for it. This applies to pretty much everything. If you actually work in the area of concern and have some expertise then you know exactly why the problem isn't solvable, wheras the layman does not have a grasp of it so assumes the reason must be laziness/stupidity when that is very rarely, if ever, the case.
For example I see a lot of people on hi-fi forums who don't understand why their parcel isn't lovingly carried like a baby and set down gently when it goes through the network. A night working in a distribution warehouse and they would immediately understand why. But they have never done that so they have no concept. I'm sure you could think of similar examples from your own area of work/expertise.
Might be fine at passing out booze, but how are they on bed pans?
Patients would be asking when the duty-free is coming round :)
walpurgis
09-10-2020, 07:34
'When are we going to land?'
Firstly such a decision would not be made by politicians as it's actually an internal NHS administration issue. The NHS has a huge administration staff including people who are paid more than the PM. The reason being they are experts in their field and it is their job to solve these problems (if they are solvable) - not the politicians. Politicians do not manage any process in any aspect of government or administration. They just make policy, and they do that with the advice of the relevant people in that area, not in a vacuum.
For example setting up the Nightingale hospitals would be a policy decision by politicians, after that everything about the setting up, organisation and running of them is done by people who are not politicians.
Sure, I get all that. Therefore, it would be interesting putting the point to the decision makers in this instance and seeing what they had to say.
However, I don't really buy the lack of staff argument, because if they've built 4000-bed Nightingale hospitals, presumably to be used *if needed* [although, as we're discussing. it appears unclear as to exactly what the criteria would be for that need], then presumably there would be sufficient staff available to run them - otherwise what's the point in having them in the first place?
And if there are enough staff to run them, then why aren't they being used now to fulfil my earlier suggestion?
Second we are not party to all the facts - it doesn't matter what the situation or field, if something that appears to be obvious isn't being done then there is almost always a good reason for it. This applies to pretty much everything. If you actually work in the area of concern and have some expertise then you know exactly why the problem isn't solvable, wheras the layman does not have a grasp of it so assumes the reason must be laziness/stupidity when that is very rarely, if ever, the case.
I accept your first point, but no doubt we'll have to agree to disagree on the likelihood of the latter, in terms of the poorly organised and incoherent way that the government have managed this pandemic, especially the shambolic 'Test and Trace' system, run on erroneous Excel databases, etc! Based on that evidence, they couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery - and you can pick whichever pun you want from that!;)
For example I see a lot of people on hi-fi forums who don't understand why their parcel isn't lovingly carried like a baby and set down gently when it goes through the network. A night working in a distribution warehouse and they would immediately understand why. But they have never done that so they have no concept. I'm sure you could think of similar examples from your own area of work/expertise.
Yes, but that's still no excuse for laziness or incompetence! You either do the job right - whatever it takes - and have the right staff and systems in place to facilitate that, or you don't do it at all. It's not a case of parcels being 'lovingly carried like a baby', but treated with due care and attention!
There's simply NO excuse for any lack of such, barring legitimate mistakes or accidents, so chucking parcels around like footballs (as has been seen on examples of video footage at some of these sorting/delivery warehouses) is simply inexcusable.
Therefore, whilst I get the gist of what you're saying, the above is a poor example.
Marco.
Might be fine at passing out booze, but how are they on bed pans?
I wouldn't know, but would expect that they would be great at standing in front of a few hundred patients showing them how to put their respirators on!
no wonder care homes have problems.. this one is just a couple of miles away.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54456819
disgrace quite frankly
Pigmy Pony
09-10-2020, 20:20
No idea what you mean by that last sentence - is it meant to be a dig? Or what/whom exactly are you referring to? Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post, as the one you replied to from me was largely tongue-in-cheek!:ner:
Also, how long have these restrictions, with Covid, been imposed upon you, and remind me again of what exactly they are... So you're not allowed to go anywhere at all and have been forced to become a prisoner in your own home - is that what you're saying?
Marco.
No, I'm not a prisoner in my own home, I still have to go to work, but since 7th August Preston residents cannot see others in their house or garden, even if the others are in or from an unaffected area. Nor can different households mix in indoor venues. All my friends and family live in Preston or Scotland so no socialising going on there.
I did call at a friend's house last month, with a clip board and tape measure, on the pretext of surveying for a replacement door, as going into another's house is ok if work-related. When he came to the door he looked up and down the street to check for prying eyes before letting me in. Much like a bored housewife admitting her gentleman caller, having put a box of OMO washing powder in the window. Pathetic!
This is how it has been for the last two months, hence my work-telly-sleep-work comment. But as I have said numerous times, some have it much worse. Still gets me down sometimes though, and makes me less tolerant of what appear to be insensitive comments. Still love you though! :)
Lol... I getcha. Glad it's not affected how much you fancy the pants off me, shweety:kiss:
:eyebrows::D
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
10-10-2020, 14:14
Lol... I getcha. Glad it's not affected how much you fancy the pants off me, shweety:kiss:
:eyebrows::D
Marco.
Pants? Who are you trying to kid? Surely you mean bloomers? :D
how does this happen? i mean really shocking lack of care....
Used coronavirus swab tests were accidentally given out to households in Birmingham, council officials said.
Birmingham City Council said about 25 kits had been given out by mistake in the student area of Selly Oak as part of its "drop-and-collect" service.
It said the error was quickly realised, the kits remained intact and there was no evidence of cross-contamination.
However, student David Lewes, 21, said he and four housemates used the tests without realising they were not new.
"We are really distressed, shocked, violated and one of my friends threw up after finding out they had been used before," he said.
'Violated'. FFS.
What's he studying? Hairdressing?
anthonyTD
14-10-2020, 17:05
:spew:
how does this happen? i mean really shocking lack of care....
Used coronavirus swab tests were accidentally given out to households in Birmingham, council officials said.
Birmingham City Council said about 25 kits had been given out by mistake in the student area of Selly Oak as part of its "drop-and-collect" service.
It said the error was quickly realised, the kits remained intact and there was no evidence of cross-contamination.
However, student David Lewes, 21, said he and four housemates used the tests without realising they were not new.
"We are really distressed, shocked, violated and one of my friends threw up after finding out they had been used before," he said.
Apparently you can it a swab's been used by the bit of jelly on the end.
Marco.
Ahh, but how do you tell whether it is "jelly" or some sort of exudate from someone else :hmm::hmm:
Pigmy Pony
15-10-2020, 06:06
how does this happen? i mean really shocking lack of care....
Used coronavirus swab tests were accidentally given out to households in Birmingham, council officials said.
Birmingham City Council said about 25 kits had been given out by mistake in the student area of Selly Oak as part of its "drop-and-collect" service.
It said the error was quickly realised, the kits remained intact and there was no evidence of cross-contamination.
However, student David Lewes, 21, said he and four housemates used the tests without realising they were not new.
"We are really distressed, shocked, violated and one of my friends threw up after finding out they had been used before," he said.
The "crash for cash" lawyers will be waiting to see if David Lewes contracts Covid. They've probably already contacted him, told him to self-isolate, to strengthen his case ;)
walpurgis
17-10-2020, 17:21
I anticipate unrest tonight in Tier 2 and Tier 3 areas. I just can't see the 'yoof of today' and the chavs complying on a Saturday night. They reacted negatively first time around
I anticipate unrest tonight in Tier 2 and Tier 3 areas. I just can't see the 'yoof of today' and the chavs complying on a Saturday night. They reacted negatively first time around
yes and up here after an old firm game, they are bound to be out in force on both sides for different reasons.
Pierre De Grenoble
17-10-2020, 18:11
just surfacing on web news services.. leaked letter saying that Wales going to total circuit break next Friday 23rd untill Mon 9th. My pub table and Indian table allready booked for the 22nd.
Mikeandvan
17-10-2020, 20:25
I anticipate unrest tonight in Tier 2 and Tier 3 areas. I just can't see the 'yoof of today' and the chavs complying on a Saturday night. They reacted negatively first time around
I guess you've forgotten what it's like being young?
Pierre De Grenoble
17-10-2020, 20:30
I guess you've forgotten what it's like being young?
I remember well what it was like to be young.. but that was pre thatcher and ME ME ME ME, arsewipes these days don't give a fuck about anything except themselves.
Im sure I wasn't perfect but I think I had a small idea of my obligations to those around me.
anthonyTD
19-10-2020, 11:16
Not sure how many have seen this one, but i thought it worth posting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7TRNbeptbU4&app=desktop
not convinced by th numbers in the wales circuit breaker tbh. majority of country isnt that high judging by figures. incline to think politics are partly at play.
hopefully scotland wont follow
Pierre De Grenoble
19-10-2020, 17:57
not convinced by th numbers in the wales circuit breaker tbh. majority of country isnt that high judging by figures. incline to think politics are partly at play.
hopefully scotland wont follow
Dunno to be honest Grant, it seems even the basics are out the window here, town centre is wild west at night, and a huge student population that don't give one. I drove past an infants school the other day at kickout time, a couple of hundred kids, dozens of parents with just the odd mask everyone cwtched up and laugthing, horrifying to even think about. I do a post office run every morning at 0900 will be interesting to see how quieter it gets.
Yup, once plied up with drink people think social distancing is a band from the 80 s.
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