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I've decided to start a new thread as the old one was getting a bit long and rambling.
Plus I have entered a new era and have the lash-up sounding pretty good. good enough that I have actually - gasp - been buying some new music to listen to, instead of playing the same old stuff trying to work out the problems.
This is the first time since 1995 that I have actually been reasonably happy with the sound of my system.
Anyway this morning I am in a hi-fi shop!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/march2016%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/march2016%20001.jpg.html)
Or am I? No, it is just my living room and loudspeakers are piling up.
On the stands are the B&O MC120.2 that I have just acquired. What a great speaker these are, a total cut above. I like 3 way speakers and I like mid-range domes so thought I would have a try of them. As I'd hoped they are capable of doing that out of box imaging thing, hanging a big soundstage that you can watch like you are watching a film. This is the thing I like about the Akais (also pictured) - you forget that you are listening to loudspeakers altogether.
The B&O do not have the same dynamic freedom as the Akais, since they are significantly smaller, but there is not a massive difference. And they won't play at the same SPL without complaining either, but they are sufficient for any reasonable listening level.
As you might expect they are a little more 'refined' than the Akais, which can spit a little with high-octane rock music. The B&O are smoother, but just as open in the mid and top, bass being just a little on the warm and rich side of tight and neutral. Imagine ATC crossed with Harbeth (if you can!) and you sort of have the character of these speakers.
Since all of my quality speakers are vintage, or need work (like the big IMFs also pictured) I wanted a modern-ish speaker to give me a second opinion on the rest of the system. I did have a listen to Alan's B&W 602 that he kindly brought over a few weeks ago but this gives me the chance for a longer comparison.
The verdict? As I said at the start it is sounding pretty good. No real foibles in the sound. Sins of omission I can live with but not sins of commission. I can't hear any sins of commission here. Could things be better on the amp and source side? Well possibly, I suppose the CD player could be bettered and maybe the power amp, but I am not in any desperate need to upgrade them. I will abide and see what comes along that is of interest in those areas.
Back to the B&O and one point I think must be made - why buy brand new speakers when bargains like these are available on the forums for £200 that are several levels up in terms of quality over what you will get for that money even in a store that does offer good budget value like Richer Sounds?
I leave you to mull over that one.
brian2957
12-03-2016, 09:38
Sounds like you're in a good place Martin . :)
Can you get them all into Marcos car and bring them to NEBO so we can all have a listen . :D
Are you coming to the next NEBO BTW ?
Quite a collection there Macca... That pic makes the Akai drivers look enormous
Hi Brian - yes I hope to make it. Depending on Marco's plans I was thinking about bringing the Akais but I suppose both they and the B&O together would be possible. The IMFs are a bit big, although I hope to have them fixed by then. If Marco can't make it I may well still come up on the train but then hauling 'speakers with me will be out of the question ;)
Quite a collection there Macca... That pic makes the Akai drivers look enormous
15 inches of goodness! There is no substitute if you want that truly effortless sound. I still use them with a subwoofer, though!
15 inches of goodness! There is no substitute if you want that truly effortless sound. I still use them with a subwoofer, though!
Bass fiend! :eyebrows:
brian2957
12-03-2016, 10:23
Hi Brian - yes I hope to make it. Depending on Marco's plans I was thinking about bringing the Akais but I suppose both they and the B&O together would be possible. The IMFs are a bit big, although I hope to have them fixed by then. If Marco can't make it I may well still come up on the train but then hauling 'speakers with me will be out of the question ;)
Hopefully see you there again mate :)
Bass fiend! :eyebrows:
It's still toytown bass compared to the IMFs - as are most speakers I suppose. You do get the slam from those fifteens, though, which the B&O speakers just don't do. But the B&O are so beautifully sweet. My test album for 'beauty of the sound' is Jethro Tull's 'A Little Light Music' which is a compilation of semi-acoustic live sets. They totally ace this recording, sounds delightful. If you could combine the best bits of the three 'speakers in the photograph, you'd be close to perfect.
Brian - yes, I look forward to seeing you again buddy :)
walpurgis
12-03-2016, 11:32
Martin. The 'spit' you mention with the Akais, is a characteristic of that silver horn tweeter. I've used a few pairs of those in the past, still have a pair actually. Those I've had have carried the Eagle brand, HT21 model. Made by Coral I believe. Reducing the output might clean things up.
Firebottle
12-03-2016, 11:52
Looking good Martin and I'm glad the B&Os are hitting the spot.
I sort of thought they would :thumbsup:
Just been looking at the internal photos I took of your Akais. With the comments made about the silver horns you could try just disconnecting them (the blue wire) and see what you think. The other tweeters would still be connected and you could always then re-adjust the treble level control.
I think you are right Geoff, but it is only very occasionally apparent so It isn't a big issue for me. I'll take that bit of edge over an overly smooth presentation any day.
I'm waiting on the IMF being sorted before I make a decision about where to go with the speakers. Options are
1) use the IMFs if they are up to scratch once recapped.
2) Use the Akais with a better sub than the Yamaha I have now - possibly two subs using the same Akai bass drivers with active crossover, or possibly 2 passive - but large (100 litre) subs and tagged on to the existing Akai crossovers.
3) use the B&O, again with a better sub either built or bought.
4) buy some more speakers. :)
Firebottle
12-03-2016, 12:02
see my added comment on #10.
see my added comment on #10.
Interesting idea but the horn units are the tweeters - the other 3 tweeters are super-tweeters so dropping it would give a bit of a gap in the FR - in theory - plus affect the imaging. Probably lose more than might be gained.
I do have 2 full sets of spare drivers, though, so building a 'super-Akai' from them is tempting.
I've decided to start a new thread as the old one was getting a bit long and rambling.
Plus I have entered a new era and have the lash-up sounding pretty good. good enough that I have actually - gasp - been buying some new music to listen to, instead of playing the same old stuff trying to work out the problems.
This is the first time since 1995 that I have actually been reasonably happy with the sound of my system.
Anyway this morning I am in a hi-fi shop!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/march2016%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/march2016%20001.jpg.html)
Or am I? No, it is just my living room and loudspeakers are piling up.
On the stands are the B&O MC120.2 that I have just acquired. What a great speaker these are, a total cut above. I like 3 way speakers and I like mid-range domes so thought I would have a try of them. As I'd hoped they are capable of doing that out of box imaging thing, hanging a big soundstage that you can watch like you are watching a film. This is the thing I like about the Akais (also pictured) - you forget that you are listening to loudspeakers altogether.
The B&O do not have the same dynamic freedom as the Akais, since they are significantly smaller, but there is not a massive difference. And they won't play at the same SPL without complaining either, but they are sufficient for any reasonable listening level.
As you might expect they are a little more 'refined' than the Akais, which can spit a little with high-octane rock music. The B&O are smoother, but just as open in the mid and top, bass being just a little on the warm and rich side of tight and neutral. Imagine ATC crossed with Harbeth (if you can!) and you sort of have the character of these speakers.
Since all of my quality speakers are vintage, or need work (like the big IMFs also pictured) I wanted a modern-ish speaker to give me a second opinion on the rest of the system. I did have a listen to Alan's B&W 602 that he kindly brought over a few weeks ago but this gives me the chance for a longer comparison.
The verdict? As I said at the start it is sounding pretty good. No real foibles in the sound. Sins of omission I can live with but not sins of commission. I can't hear any sins of commission here. Could things be better on the amp and source side? Well possibly, I suppose the CD player could be bettered and maybe the power amp, but I am not in any desperate need to upgrade them. I will abide and see what comes along that is of interest in those areas.
Back to the B&O and one point I think must be made - why buy brand new speakers when bargains like these are available on the forums for £200 that are several levels up in terms of quality over what you will get for that money even in a store that does offer good budget value like Richer Sounds?
I leave you to mull over that one.
I have to say Martin, your speaker choices are a bit left field :)
I have to say from my side of the counter, that B&O went through a terrible speaker phase with this range - PHASE being the operative word. The smaller ones sort of got away with it, having the tweeters well separated from the bass units, but the more complex they got, the worse the sound became. The 120's were top of the range and I think they were slightly better than the absolutely horrible MC 80's they made, but out of phase drivers, midrange colouration and random peaks and dips in the response used to give me prolonged headaches if I was forced to listen to them (my hearing as much as anything else, but this kind of acoustic treatment on a speaker affects me - one reason why I hardly ever listened to my repaired Spendor BC2's until just recently after I padded the HF1300 tweeter down a little further).
Try the B&O's on applause as well as light folk and jazz. Watch for a sucked out upper mid masquerading for 'air and space.'
Sorry about the above, but I suppose that I'd have been looking for bigger AR models (2ax, 3a or replacements - 10pi's are too rare and expensive) in need of a re-foam, or possibly KEF Concerto's which came to life on low 10" stands. I wonder if you'd like AR90's accepting the bass units may need attention.
P.S. I know you'd like the Beovox 5700/5702 as it's a cut down Ditton 66, or at least the 5702 was as I remember https://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=475 I suspect the cab volume was more like the Ditton 551, which was a very fine speaker I remember.
P.P.S. I do love the old IMF's, but the bass on these early TL's was a bit loose in the lower regions - not an issue with the sources and amps then often used. I still think that some added subtle resistance in the lines (easily removed cushion inners?) would tame the floppy low bass and balance out the mid bass a bit, as what you gain very low down is paid for by nasties further up the bass register - look at HFW review on PMC FB1's for an better explanation - they all do it.
A lot of woofers there to choose from Martin? I presume you can just plug in according to what music suits best.
Bear in mind lots of speakers together in one room does have an effect on the speakers playing. They excite each other!:lol:
Bear in mind lots of speakers together in one room does have an effect on the speakers playing. They excite each other!:lol:
There are 4 other pairs in the room as well as those you can see. Plus the sub, of course.
Dave - comprehensive reply as always ;) Yes I like left field choices because I've done the boring little 2 ways and floor
standing 2.5 ways and I like to check out other approaches to speaker design not available new to the enthusiast on a budget. Of course if you have thousands to spend the choice can get very left field on the new market - but I don't.
The 120.2 were the midpoint of a very large range (not the top) but are considered the 'sweet spot' apparently. They are a bit 'phasey' although not sure we are talking about the same thing. But there is quite a big shift in presentation above and below axis. Listening it a distance does smooth this out a bit, though.
Update: The crossovers on the IMF TLS Fifties are getting fixed this week - possibly as early as Monday! Then it will be shoot-out time with the TSL50 vs the Akai SW175 plus subwoofer. The IMF don't need the sub, they scoff at it in fact. But with the Akais it just fills the mid-bass in perfectly. There is no deep bass but you do get speed (and slam, if you whack it up a bit).
This must be the longest I've gone in years without swapping boxes or cables. All music types sound pleasing and enjoyable. Not the last word, but listenable with the odd impressive moment. I've actually been able to listen to music instead of the system, which is rare for me. Even if I change stuff in the future I will be keeping all the components of this current lash up so I can always go back to it in a pinch.
walpurgis
07-05-2016, 19:36
Still got the Calindas Martin?
Firebottle
07-05-2016, 19:42
I've actually been able to listen to music instead of the system,
That is great to hear Martin, I can understand the sense of satisfaction from that :thumbsup:
Yep still got them. Five sets of speakers in the room at the moment. The B&O have gone upstairs whilst I figure out what to do with them. They really are excellent by any standard but are just not quite big enough so are a bit 'lost' in my room.
That is great to hear Martin, I can understand the sense of satisfaction from that :thumbsup:
1995 was the last time I had a system that cracked it. Until the amp went bad. It's been a while.
Firebottle
09-06-2016, 13:04
So what is the result of the IMF update Martin?
Sorry Alan, I never saw your previous post here until just now. For those who haven't seen the other thread on the subject, fixing the crossovers on the IMFs has encountered a hiccup and so is still an ongoing saga. The Akai SW175 are still the daily drivers, speaker-wise.
Any news on the xovers Martin?
No, I will attempt them at the weekend. Work is very hectic at the moment, don't feel like doing much when I get in at night except vegetating.
Rigged meself up a little near-field set up by robbing the 25 ft speaker cables from the rear speakers on the home cinema system so they can reach down the room to the main system. Using these fancy B&O MC1202 speakers with their midrange domes:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0104.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0104.jpg.html)
Sounds pretty good, sat 6 ft away with the speakers heavily angled in towards me and the mid domes at ear level. Takes no prisoners in that respect but despite their domes the B&O are much more in the Harbeth mould than ATC so it is overall quite relaxingly listenable. The sweet spot is about half an inch either way, though!
Interesting to listen near-field, I rarely do it unless it is at someone else's house. You can hear right into the recording, on the other hand they don't really open up the ambience and grandeur of the recordings like the big Akais do. This is much more 'hi-fi' sounding. The speaker cable is Maplin's cheapest, crappiest stuff and I think is holding things back a little.
Been having another listen to this nearfield speaker set up. Playing Jethro Tull's A Little Light Music' (a live, semi-acoustic collection) the last tune, 'Locomotive Breath' is a rocker and they go for it a bit. The CD has good DR but sounded a bit rough as things climax, as it were. A bit of raggedness. My theory is still that it is the speaker cable. I lashed it up, there are no connectors so it is tarnished bare wire at both ends, and not much of it, and at the speaker end it had to be wound round the binding posts as the hole in the middle would only take bell wire.
So tomorrow I'm intending to strip the cables back and get much more surface area and securer connections and see if that clears the problem.
Got round to stripping the cable back. In these days of dealer-terminated gold-plated banana plugs it is a bit of a forgotten art. Used to be a dab hand at this with a pair of kitchen scissors but although it took me quarter of an hour to do the first one it took just another quarter to do all the other 7 so the old magic is still there.
The cable is branded Gale, if anyone's interested and is stranded copper. Not many strands so with the gnarly old tarnished ends stripped away and the fresh copper tightly twisted it fitted snugly through the tiny little holes on the B&O binding posts. They are not the worst posts I have seem but they wouldn't pass muster today. Not even gold plated. Even my £100 new Studio Spares bridge monitors have better efforts on them.
I did the ends going to into the amp too, of course.
So does it make a difference? Well it sounds a little crisper, tighter, bit more impact on percussion. No doubt I'm getting a much better contact at both ends now. Still got that narrow sweet spot though which is annoying. Maybe the midrange domes? I can't remember if the problem with using midrange domes is that they are too directional or not directional enough. Anyway, sound quality can safely be described as adequate, if not breathtaking, but it's not too shabby at all given it is only £1300 of bits making it. Might try the Studio Spares later on for a comparison.
Just been listening whilst writing this (playing that Tull Cd again) and can confirm the sound is deffo cleaner and crisper now. Job's a good 'un.
Always used side snips myself. Was never keen on proper strippers, unless dancing on the table :eyebrows: not tried scissors for many years... Side snips are an art too. A sharp scalpel works well and is more accurate, although there is more blood
It's a knack with the scissors and I was out of practice so I snipped right through the cable on the first one. Easier if the cable is a bit thicker than this Gale stuff, too.
Should really be sorting out cleaning the IMF crossovers but can't summon up the will. Got to be done, though. Pleasant as these B&O are I don't think I can go back to living with smaller speakers full time. Everything sounds so, well, small.
Know what you mean... I,m getting big sound at moment pretty effortlessly. Wondering how i will handle the smaller singles? Mind you they are as sweet as a nut so may be ok, if i ever do lol. Im spoilt for choice tbh, and short of space now. Got 5 sets of good speakers now.. All built or refurbed by myself, and i like them all in their own ways.
Fortunately in some ways, they are not popular these days, so no-one would pay me enough to sell.
brian2957
14-08-2016, 10:35
Always used side snips myself. Was never keen on proper strippers, unless dancing on the table :eyebrows: not tried scissors for many years... Side snips are an art too. A sharp scalpel works well and is more accurate, although there is more blood
Ah... I was wondering why there was a table in the middle of your living room :)
brian2957
14-08-2016, 10:37
Know what you mean... I,m getting big sound at moment pretty effortlessly. Wondering how i will handle the smaller singles? Mind you they are as sweet as a nut so may be ok, if i ever do lol. Im spoilt for choice tbh, and short of space now. Got 5 sets of good speakers now.. All built or refurbed by myself, and i like them all in their own ways.
Fortunately in some ways, they are not popular these days, so no-one would pay me enough to sell.
Yes you are spoiled for choice mate . I also liked the big standmounts you have . Lovely sound in your room.
Some good pictures of the MC120.2 speakers here on Beoworld, shows the internals and crossovers:
http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/16307/141323.aspx#141323
Playing some Tom Petty at the moment, sounds good enough to keep distracting me from what I'm supposed to be doing.
Some good pictures of the MC120.2 speakers here on Beoworld, shows the internals and crossovers:
http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/16307/141323.aspx#141323
Playing some Tom Petty at the moment, sounds good enough to keep distracting me from what I'm supposed to be doing.
Nice pics. I remember those now Martin. Look nice enough but as you say, not big enough for you ... Think you may be on to something with nearer field listening though for much of your listening. Just maybe bigger speakers with a wider soundstage.
Yes you are spoiled for choice mate . I also liked the big standmounts you have . Lovely sound in your room.
Is that the telefunkens or the celestions ?
brian2957
14-08-2016, 18:28
Nice pics. I remember those now Martin. Look nice enough but as you say, not big enough for you ... Think you may be on to something with nearer field listening though for much of your listening. Just maybe bigger speakers with a wider soundstage.
Is that the telefunkens or the celestions ?
Telefunkens mate . I haven't heard the Celestions ( I don't think )
youve heard them with the Sony amp, but a while ago. 12" drivers... not too bad either really. Kinda forgot about the Sony amp til now. Its in the cupboard unloved at moment lol.
still to try it with the new speakers as Martin suggested.
So Martin, have you cleaned those xovers, or did the couch make you a proposition ;)
I've not done it. Got distracted, now it's after teatime and beer o'clock. Maybe next weekend. Having plenty of fun with the B&O speakers at the moment. A change is as good as a rest, so they say.
Got rid of the extreme toe in on these speeks, gone for almost none at all. Much better again. Smoother and less exposed, wider sweet spot, better soundstaging.
Never liked toe-in much on any speaker I've owned, these seem to be no exception. Indeed they are not exceptional in any area, just competent all-rounders. Good bass tone, but electric guitars are not quite right - or not what I'm used to them sounding like anyway. A minor criticism though. These were allegedly the sweet spot in the range, but I'd like a try of the big 'un at the top of the range. Probably very rare.
Near-field listening ain't too shabby, eh? ;)
Anyway, fire-up yer lazy arse, daftee, and get those crossovers done! :)
Marco.
Got the Studiospares SN10 in. Never had them on the current main rig before. They are the front speakers for my home cinema system. 8 inch mid bass and soft dome tweeter in a sealed box.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0002%201.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0002%201.jpg.html)
Only just started listening. Not as refined as the B&O but punchier and more lively.
Beobloke
24-08-2016, 11:54
I'd like a try of the big 'un at the top of the range. Probably very rare.
They are. And expensive when you find them. But well worth tracking down... :eyebrows:
You've heard them then?
I'm actually sort of preferring the much cruder Studiospares speakers. Apart from a hint of a 'kazoo' like quality to the mids they are much more dynamic and exciting to listen to than the B&O. Definately a personal taste thing, I know a lot of folk would prefer the more sophisticated presentation.
Would seem what I am really after is a speaker that has the dynamic openess plus the sophistication. Answers on a postcard as to what speakers that might offer that.
The Black Adder
24-08-2016, 12:12
My friend uses Studio Spares monitors in his studio. They always sound great.
White drivers too... cool!
Yes, the white drivers were a big selling point :) I only bought them to hook up to the telly, they are more than good enough for that.
Some very big boxes just arrived in the room:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0003.jpg.html)
Woahhh...:eek:
And I presume its not a fridge freezer?:)
jollyfix
10-09-2016, 13:42
:popcorn: when does the unboxing start?
They weigh as much. Or I'm getting weaker. Probably a little of both. Need a sit down and a cup of tea before I can battle with the set up.
The Black Adder
10-09-2016, 14:15
ALWAYS unbox with a cup of tea.
How can it be done any other way! :)
I bet they will sound smashing. Great speakers. Of course, they will need some breaking in so if first impressions are good they will only get better.
Leave them running the Isotek disc in for a while.
They sounded good at the demo. Been up since six as had to go over to Sheffield to get them, lovely drive across the moors. Devon and the Lakes may grab all the glory but Staffordshire and Derbyshire have some of the most beautiful countryside ... in the world. Especially this time of year. Stopped on the way back for a spot of venison casserole and a swift half of Black Sheep. Yom yom, but now feeling very drowsy.
Need to make up some bi-wire links before I can try them, which is a pain but can't be helped.
Firebottle
10-09-2016, 14:25
Some very big boxes just arrived in the room:.....
Well at least you have got the room, those should give you the bass you want :thumbsup:
I suspect they probably won't, I think they might still be a bit too small for the room, but they should do as a stop-gap.
I wanted some modern speakers as I'm all vintage at the moment. I need a variety so I can get my head around what I actually want when I build my own. Hence me trying lots of different speakers recently. Plan at the moment is to build a very large JBL clone with 15 inch bass driver and cell horn loaded compression driver, fully active with digital xover and eq. I'm looking at having that project finished for my Fiftieth so I've go two years to accumulate the bits as they won't be cheap.
Ali Tait
10-09-2016, 14:45
Recommend one of these Martin-
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd
By the time you get them you wont want all that bass..... Sure they will give you plenty.
The Black Adder
10-09-2016, 14:51
I'm sure his lunch will give him plenty of 'ahem'...Bass.
Eeew, Pheewww! :)
Recommend one of these Martin-
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd
That's what I'm looking at getting, plus one of those Nakamichi 7 channel power amps (or similar). Sadly that is the easy bit. The compression drivers are the bit I will struggle with since I know nothing about them except they are expensive.
By the time you get them you wont want all that bass..... Sure they will give you plenty.
It isn't so much bass depth as that ease of delivery you only get with a big driver in a big box. I reckon it is why so many people end up with big Tannoys. Anyway I'm starting to recover so will embark on setting them up and then we will see what the story is. Another cup of tea first, though.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 15:24
:popcorn:
Got them out and set up. That wasn't easy. The 'wall of speakers' behind the one on the right will be dismantled upstairs tomorrow. Hopefully. Just need to make up some jumpers from a foot of 79 strand I found whilst putting the boxes away, and then we're off!
Deffo the classiest looking pair of speakers I've ever owned. Makes it look like I have actually spent serious money this time, although I haven't. This does push the total cost of the system to £2K though, which isn't chicken feed in the real world even if it is in the hi-fi one.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/004_1.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/004_1.jpg.html)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/002_1.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/002_1.jpg.html)
Man, making those jumper cables took forever. But they are in and I have sound (Smashing Pumpkins 'Siamese Dream' to be exact). First impressions are positive. I need to mess with the positioning a bit, maybe. Some serious listening will now commence and I'll be back in a bit :)
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 16:51
I'll be interested to hear about your impressions Martin.
jollyfix
10-09-2016, 17:07
Same here Martin
Yup, me too, enjoying this. Nice drive, good meal and a new pair of speakers, good so far :)
Nice selection of guitars there Martin!
Sadly the guitars are just cheap copies that I picked up years ago. I toy with the idea of getting a decent Les Paul copy cause I prefer it to the tele but I'm really too piss poor at playing the things to warrant it.
Anyway yes it has been a good day, I'm now drinking Guinness and listening to Sinatra. Hey, even a stray dog gets a warm piece of the sidewalk sometimes. ;)
Chris who I got the speakers from is a real gentleman. He is also selling his Avondale power amp which was sounding excellent. If anyone is considering it my advice is don't hesitate.
Anyway the verdict so far is that they are very good. Very good indeed. Massively even handed, very open in the mids, listening to the Sinatra monologue now it is almost disturbingly clear and 'real'. They have that modern speaker thing with the emphasised leading edges (compared to a lot of vintage speakers), but I quite like that. With what I have played so far there is no hint of them being harsh or bright.
Really the mid and top is pretty much at electrostatic/panel level. No box to be heard. Bass is okay, goes deep enough to energise the room, not over-emphasised, 'satisfyingly weighty' but still sounds like a ported speaker to me in that the mid bass is a bit softer and woollier than notional perfection. Good soundstaging, which I can probably improve on with a bit of moving them around tomorrow.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 20:30
Macca's keeping very quiet. Being Saturday, I'm wondering if he's having a drinkie and it's slowing down his updating us on the findings! :D ;)
Ha. I posted too late. The update arrived at the same time. :lol:
Nice one Martin, sounds like you have something with a bit more scale and resolution?
Arkless Electronics
10-09-2016, 20:38
Inverted titanium domes n'est pas? Nice! You just need some Arkless Electronics amplification to drive them now and job's a good 'n :eyebrows:
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 20:45
Moving the speakers will likely alter the way bass sounds anyway.
They will hopefully do you for a few years anyways til your franky-stein speaks come on line
Inverted titanium domes n'est pas? Nice! You just need some Arkless Electronics amplification to drive them now and job's a good 'n :eyebrows:
Yep - £400 to replace according to Chris. So I best be careful.
Got a bit of Dexter Gordon on now. Okay, so plinky plonk like this will flatter any system but even so...I think I just upgraded a couple of notches. :) I like that they sound completely out of the box and just paint a big soundstage down the end of the room. I suppose it helps that they are so tall and the midrange driver is at the top of the array, although it angles down a little.
Anyway they have been far from a disappointment so far. Rest of system probably needs upgrading to match them, LOL. What can you do? The budget is done in for this year :)
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 21:55
What's the sensitivity of those Martin?
Claims 91dB in the manual. They seem noticeably less sensitive than the Akai SW175 which claim 96dB.
Arkless Electronics
10-09-2016, 22:05
Yep - £400 to replace according to Chris. So I best be careful.
Got a bit of Dexter Gordon on now. Okay, so plinky plonk like this will flatter any system but even so...I think I just upgraded a couple of notches. :) I like that they sound completely out of the box and just paint a big soundstage down the end of the room. I suppose it helps that they are so tall and the midrange driver is at the top of the array, although it angles down a little.
Anyway they have been far from a disappointment so far. Rest of system probably needs upgrading to match them, LOL. What can you do? The budget is done in for this year :)
Fookin 'ell:eek: Yep I'd be very careful!
I'm sure they would sound rather wonderful with one of my class A 50WPC amps but it ain't cheap I'm afraid... Only one in existence is my own and no immediate plans to sell any as I need to get the ball rolling with some more affordable gear for now.. I was able to make a prototype for my own use from parts I had in stock and others removed from older prototypes etc, it isn't cased up and just covers about a 2" square area of floor atm. It has 12X 22000uf smoothing caps, twin 400VA transformers, separate regulated supplies for the driver stages and 3 pairs of 15A mosfets per channel. To make one that also looked the part in a nice case and was made from all new components would cost me about £500-£700 just for the parts... and imagine the postage for trying a demo unit:eek: I have valve hybrid driver electronics designed and built to replace the present SS circuitry when I get round to it. It's all on my trade area pages.
I bet those JM Labs are erm... rather a step up from those Akai tea chests! You'll have to upgrade everything now to match the resolution of the new speakers! Upgraditis therapy probably required:lol:
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 22:15
Claims 91dB in the manual.
That's about the same as my Cheviot II speakers if I recall. The SM-70 Pro '25 watt' power amp drives mine very effectively, get some serious and tight wallop out of them. Plus great sound quality.
.
I bet those JM Labs are erm... rather a step up from those Akai tea chests! You'll have to upgrade everything now to match the resolution of the new speakers! Upgraditis therapy probably required:lol:
Well sort of. The JM labs are much more modern hi-fi. The Akais have their own charms which, although you may mock ;) ,are considerable when it comes down to just enjoying music.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 22:26
The Akais have their own charms which, although you may mock ;) ,are considerable when it comes down to just enjoying music.
I've not heard a pair of those as far as I can remember, but I can guess more or less what they sound like having heard a few other Japanese speakers of similar type. Plenty of presence and a beefy, tight bass. Good fun! The Goodmans Magister can do this too.
That's about the same as my Cheviot II speakers if I recall. The SM-70 Pro '25 watt' power amp drives mine very effectively, get some serious and tight wallop out of them. Plus great sound quality.
You're not sat 20 foot from the speakers in a 30' room though. 25 watts isn't enough to get the clean levels I want. I know from experience that 50w is a minimum, which is why I use the XTZ, also it doesn't mind low loads.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 22:33
You're not sat 20 foot from the speakers in a 30' room though
No I'm not, but 50 watts is only 3db louder than 25 watts, barely noticeable. Trust me the Monarchy packs a punch. Shame you're not nearer, I'd show you.
The XTZ is 110 watts/8 ohms - so 6dB louder ;) I used to clip a 50W Linn LK100 on peaks into 90 dB speakers. I've never heard the XTZ clip. The speakers give in first. The traffo is the size of a watermelon.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 22:41
so 6dB louder
Damn! Trumped by a mere 3db! ;)
I could improve the CD player. I know that as I have better ones but they don't work anymore. I've had my eye out for something for a while but not in any serious way. With serious CD players the way I see it is as a buyers market but the sellers have yet to realise that. So biding my time.
walpurgis
10-09-2016, 22:57
Get a second hand PD-S505 Precision. Makes a fine stand alone unit and transport for remarkably sensible money. I use one and it's as satisfying as my £1200 Meridian. And they just seem to keep on going too.
My mate has one in a pretty serious system and is well pleased with it. Bev seems happy with hers as well.
I do fancy a Pioneer but it has to be the PD91. And it will be mine. Oh yes! It will be mine.
I do fancy a Pioneer but it has to be the PD91. And it will be mine. Oh yes! It will be mine.
Glad they're doing something for you Martin. Hopefully the bass will improve with positioning, although there's a reason bass players use 10s, 12s and 15s. There's a really nice tele for sale near me and my self control is, like yourself, Wayning (party on dude).
Glad they're doing something for you Martin. Hopefully the bass will improve with positioning, although there's a reason bass players use 10s, 12s and 15s. There's a really nice tele for sale near me and my self control is, like yourself, Wayning (party on dude).
LOL - party on, John. If you get the tele let us have a look at it.
Should point out I am being a bit fussy about the bass, that is just me. Rare I hear a speaker at any price that does bass properly - or what I consider proper, anyway. Hence the plan to build my own. (I'll get a local gadgee to build the cabs, since I am cack-handed at that sort of thing. There is a cabinet maker near me who is also heavily into his music so he would be ideal). In the meantime I'd say I'm 95% happy with these JM labs.
I do fancy a Pioneer but it has to be the PD91. And it will be mine. Oh yes! It will be mine.
If and when, strictly NO Stairway :D
Are the JM Labs giving you a bit more resolution and heft to the sound in your room now Martin?
You could do with Firebottles monoblocks to run them?:)
Are the JM Labs giving you a bit more resolution and heft to the sound in your room now Martin?
You could do with Firebottles monoblocks to run them?:)
Yes they are. Sounds very different from when you were over. Much more hi-fi. No trace of 'vintage' sound now, but I can still jack up the levels and it stays clean, which is what I like about the Akais and I didn't want to lose that just to gain a bit more fidelity. I was worried they might struggle a bit with the volume of the space but they really don't.
Have to say I think my XTZ amp is a very good match for them, but I will be having another go with the Firebottle AIR amp when Alan is back up this way.
The Black Adder
11-09-2016, 13:00
The PD-91 is one player I would have again.
They have their 'quirks' though and the lasers are getting more and more scarce, and very expensive.
The cd drawer can be temperamental too. The ability of reading CDR's is not a problem as their is a tweak inside that can be done to able that.
But... the rest is bomb proof and the player would be your last... it's an amazing sounding player.
Yes, they concentrated on the stuff that actually matters with that Pioneer. I will find one at some point when I am feeling a bit 'spendy' again.
Just been reading the manual for these speakers plus a couple of magazine reviews. Turns out they were designed by Dominic Baker who used to edit HFW years and years ago. Interesting as IIRC he had very similar taste in speakers to me.
And they weight 36 kilos which explains why moving them is so much effort.
Well, how are you getting on with them now Macca?
Had them fully 'opened up' yesterday evening. have to say the mid and top are amongst the best, possibly the best, I have heard on any speaker ever. Just supremely open and neutral.
On the flip side sat in free space in a big room the balance is slightly toppy. I much prefer a house curve with boosted lower frequencies. They are not bass shy at all, and it goes low and is controlled, but it isn't quite right for my tastes.
They are a bit richer sounding lower down, compared to the Akais which are very dry. I quite like the richness, although they never go beyond neutral but are on the warmer side of neutral. Very well-judged balance really. I guess that they were not intended to be used so far from a rear wall as I have them (the fact that they are front ported being a bit of a giveaway there).
I might swap in my Parasound CD player later and see what the differences are compared to using the Sony.
Have you tried a bit of port tuning Martin? with something like natural sponge or drinking straws, it made a hell of an improvement to the bottom end of a pair of B&Ws I had for a while.
Worth a try possibly.
Had them fully 'opened up' yesterday evening. have to say the mid and top are amongst the best, possibly the best, I have heard on any speaker ever. Just supremely open and neutral.
On the flip side sat in free space in a big room the balance is slightly toppy. I much prefer a house curve with boosted lower frequencies. They are not bass shy at all, and it goes low and is controlled, but it isn't quite right for my tastes.
They are a bit richer sounding lower down, compared to the Akais which are very dry. I quite like the richness, although they never go beyond neutral but are on the warmer side of neutral. Very well-judged balance really. I guess that they were not intended to be used so far from a rear wall as I have them (the fact that they are front ported being a bit of a giveaway there).
I might swap in my Parasound CD player later and see what the differences are compared to using the Sony.
Maybe stick with it and forget your ideal. You may end up preferring it this way. Maybe sit a little closer too.
Really annoying when you get an improvement but you know it's not working for you, the old synergy's all messed up. Is a change in cables going to be enough to alter the balance?
There's no doubt we all have a particular preference of tonal balance, probably largely driven by our taste in music. Think I'm like yourself, it's all about the bass :)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iyTTX6Wlf1Y
The ports come with sponge in them already.
Just had another session with them. Played some stuff with serious low octave content (modern hip hop/funk sort of thing) and have to take my comments above back a little at least. Bass is not as good as I have heard of the best of them, but really it is churlish to fault it except against the very best. Having said that I will be acclimatising to the speakers and they do seem to have run in a bit since I first got them (I am putting some watts into them with the listening distance which I suspect they may not have had in a while if at all).
It has had me quite captivated for three hours tonight, I forgot about changing out the Sony CD for the Parasound entirely. I'm not kidding the mid and top on these is quite something. If it was married with an equally impressive bass response you would pretty much have perfection. Room withstanding of course. But there are no flaws in the bass really, it is just two-small-driver-ported-bass, bass, if you know what I mean. Bear in mind I'm jaded and have heard too much ;). A civilian would be really impressed with the bass (and even hardened survivors wold be with the rest) I think. Overall they really are a step up on anything i have had before including the Celestion A2.
This is why I am thinking ultimately my own build, active, with full digital crossovers/eq is the optimal approach to get a speaker that sounds exactly how I personally want it to sound.
Only one way to find out. Expensive mistake if I am wrong though. :)
Ali Tait
13-09-2016, 20:12
You're not wrong.
You're not wrong.
:)
It is going to be a bit of a challenge, though. Will be making a start on it in January.
Took a snap while the sunlight was coming in:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0009.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0009.jpg.html)
Swapped in my Parasound CDIP1000 CD player the other night, probably the best of the working players that I have. This was appreciated, the Parasound has lower noise than the Sony, the drawback is that it is voiced a bit like the high end Marantz players, not all syrupy and golden like the cheaper Marantzs, but just a little bit richer than neutral. The JM Labs seem to like this, though, and their good midrange exploits the lower noise.
Another bonus was that the Pioneer contained my Lisa Stansfield Cd which I'd been looking for for ages. Playing this pretty much set my mind: the speakers are very neutral in the bass, not slightly phat in the mid-bass like the Akais, and without the slam you get from the Akai's 15 inch bass driver. I like phat mid-bass, and that is what I am missing with these. On the other hand they do go quite a bit lower and have more presence down at the bottom, The club remixes at the end of the album sounded almost exactly right down at the bottom, just missing that bit of phatness and slam you get on a good club system.
However bass is really tight and controlled bass, no overhang, stops and starts very quickly, so seems to be very little in the way of room interaction. I really need to dismantle the pile of speakers behind the right hand one though as this won't be doing anything for the sound.
Regarding the mid-bass, though....I have a 10 band Sansui graphic equaliser sat around....I wonder if I should try it?
They certainly look impressive in the room Martin. I know where you are coming from with the phat bass, I think it's what makes your body move, hence the use in clubs. For me things sound flat without it, not accurate maybe but i prioritise enjoyment over absoloute accuracy.
Haven't thought this through particularly but could you use a 2nd amp to drive the woofers of one of your spare sets of speakers, possibly through the equaliser, as a stereo sub to just give the mid bass boost you'd like. Might be enough to satisfy you till you get your custom builds to fruition.
Out of interest, are the Akais sealed or ported?
They certainly look impressive in the room Martin. I know where you are coming from with the phat bass, I think it's what makes your body move, hence the use in clubs. For me things sound flat without it, not accurate maybe but i prioritise enjoyment over absoloute accuracy.
Haven't thought this through particularly but could you use a 2nd amp to drive the woofers of one of your spare sets of speakers, possibly through the equaliser, as a stereo sub to just give the mid bass boost you'd like. Might be enough to satisfy you till you get your custom builds to fruition.
That is just crazy enough to work. The pre-amp allows 3 sets of outputs, so could run a signal out to the eq unit into, say, a Linn LK100 and then into the Akais. Turn the mid and top controls on the Akais right down and use the eq to tune in the rest. A bit Heath Robinson though, and I don't have enough plug sockets without daisy chaining another distribution block. Still, that is do-able and might be worth trying just for the learning experience.
Edit: The Akais are sealed box.
walpurgis
17-09-2016, 14:51
If you still have that sub amp you had off me Martin. You could run a feed into that and split the output to run two speakers as subs (or just one). It's quite powerful and the bass contour can be adjusted.
Geoff, yes I forgot about that. Still in the box upstairs. I could hook it up to the IMF transmission lines, that should enhance the bass a bit ;)
Thinking of running a sub myself with the Spendors as they are very bass shy.
Have you had Basie Kansas City 5 yet Martin? I was playing it last night sounded great. If it was your cup of tea try Basie Jam and The Dukes Big 4.
Yes I've got Kansas City Five. Not had a proper listen to it though.
jandl100
18-09-2016, 15:41
Have you tried playing with the port stuffing, changing the material used, even taking it out entirely?
That will certainly affect the character and level of the bass.
Thought of that but the foam is fixed in place.
I am being my usual picky self. Bass, and sound quality in general, is more than adequate. Will be having another long session with it after tea. :)
If its that artificial foam then its better out. The natual sponge is best ive found. It hard when dry but does cut to size reasonably well... i used to get the baby sponges on amazon. A much better bass
I suppose it is more sponge than foam. It's fixed in so I won't mess with it.
And so to Sunday and with so many chores to accomplish I will put them off by writing this situation report instead.
Marco came round in the week for a listen. Like me he isn't really the greatest fan of contemporary WAF tower speakers and on the whole he preferred the Akai 'tea chests' to the ultra-modern JM Labs. The JM Labs are all about detail, or 'rez' as Jerry calls it. The Akais paint in broader strokes. Neither is really right or wrong, just personal taste and expectations.
Having said that we had a listen to the Stooges album (vinyl) Marco had just bought and it was quite an impressive sound, no nastiness anywhere, clean, clear, slightly sweet but also quite analytical and 'studio control room' sounding. Bit of a shock for me but I have not really had a proper listen to the turntable since Marco set it all up a couple of months back.
To confirm to myself this wasn't a one-off I had a long vinyl session (6 hours!) on Friday night which was highly enjoyable. I quite like the extra 'rez' on offer over the Akais as it draws my attention more to the music. I got the impression that I was now getting the benefit of the quite expensive cartridge, especially noticeable with the top end such as snare strikes and cymbals which were properly resolved. Actually a little better than the digital front end(s) - oops! -
Conclusion - the MP50 was probably overkill for the Akais, a cart with more balls and less finesse would be a better match for them. In any case it has got me thinking again about doing some mods to the Technics SL1200 since I think the system is now able to exploit the benefits.
Oh no! I really didn't want to get dragged further into the vinyl game, in fact have been trying to plan a way out for a while. That isn't going to happen now, the vinyl is staying. Moreover this being Sunday afternoon (and when better?) my plan is to fully sort through my collection, consign all the dross to storage and separate the stuff I have cleaned from the stuff that needs cleaning. And maybe even clean some of it if I have time. Then some listening (with some beer) later on :)
I have about 50 albums I bought over two years ago still sat where I plonked them when I got in, waiting to be scrubbed up on the Moth. This will all now happen. Not sure if I have seen the light or just a rosy glow but there is more joy in heaven etc...
brian2957
25-09-2016, 11:46
Hah ! I've been smitten by this Lenco GL75 too mate and I know how you feel . Enjoy your afternoon :)
Vinyl's the way to go Martin, you know it makes sense. :)
Brian, I am at the same time gutted and quite happy.
Started buying records in '83 so have a lovely collection, many of them early or first pressings, and I don't have many re-issues except the odd CBS 'Nice Price' effort; no modern re-releases except one. Really need a sort through and a bit of organization and thinning out. It has been neglected far too long.
Vinyl's the way to go Martin, you know it makes sense. :)
No, it makes no sense at all, but when did that ever matter in this game? ;)
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/63620449.jpg
:)
Made start. Here is the entire collection. Not sure how many, maybe 400 albums? Not huge but at least it is manageable.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0010.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0010.jpg.html)
And sorted:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0011.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0011.jpg.html)
Pile on the left is already cleaned and in new inners. The two piles on the right all need cleaning. Twice as much as the already clean pile. :( That's a lot of cleaning to do. Smaller pile at the back is the dross. Crap I will never listen to plus a few that are badly scratched or have damage (like the original pressing of the Nightfly for which I paid top dollar and has groove damage towards the end of side one and on side two). Two copies of Gaucho, both knackered, and some that are fine but I will never play as they are a bit crap.
Found loads of records I have never listened to, and plenty I don't recall buying. Didn't realise I had so many Average White Band albums. Not sure where they all came from.
Time for a cup of tea then may have a crack at cleaning a few gems.
Nice to see piles of Vinyl, I bet you have some treasures in there. I can see a few for a start! Enjoy.:)
Last night I dusted off some vinyl for the first time in ages. A revelation was Elvis Presley's The Sun Sessions, an RCA re-issue from the mid-70s. From memory, it was a bit thin and lacking bass, but so much for memory. It was shockingly good, a full-bodied mono sound with ample bass, and Elvis right there in the room (this was from his younger, thinner days, so there was plenty of room for him). Dylan's 'Bringing It All Back Home' was less revelatory. Another 70s reissue, but one I've played relatively recently and am thus more familiar with.
But I too need to have a cull, because there's lots of LPs I know I'll never play again, and they're just cluttering the place up.
I just found 12 inch single of 'Money For Nothing'. Forgot I had this. Swapped it with Nobby Clarke back in the fifth form. Can't remember what I traded him in return. Just gave it a clean, sounds excellent given it is 31 years old. Brand new, in fact.
Managed to clean 6 LPs before I got bored. Just another 294 or so to go then.
jandl100
26-09-2016, 06:42
I wish I could get rid of my vinyl and its playback kit.
But I know if I do I'd only buy it again 6 months later. :(
Mostly, I have a fairly deep hatred for it when I have it, but when it's gone I kind of pine to have it back again. :scratch:
jandl100
26-09-2016, 07:31
I quite like the extra 'rez' on offer over the Akais as it draws my attention more to the music.
Yep, rez is good. It's nice to hear what is actually on the recording and what the musicians are doing. :)
brian2957
26-09-2016, 07:33
I wish I could get rid of my vinyl and its playback kit.
But I know if I do I'd only buy it again 6 months later. :(
Mostly, I have a fairly deep hatred for it when I have it, but when it's gone I kind of pine to have it back again. :scratch:
Don't do it Jerry , I pined for 30 years :lol:
jandl100
26-09-2016, 07:42
I've gone thru the sell-it-all / buy-it-all-back cycle several times already, Brian. :doh:
brian2957
26-09-2016, 07:46
So have I mate , but only once with the turntable .
I sold a complete system many years ago and bought a very nice car with the proceeds :eek: All before I got married though :)
Did the same with Marriages.... :D
Marco came round in the week for a listen. Like me he isn't really the greatest fan of contemporary WAF tower speakers and on the whole he preferred the Akai 'tea chests' to the ultra-modern JM Labs. The JM Labs are all about detail, or 'rez' as Jerry calls it. The Akais paint in broader strokes. Neither is really right or wrong, just personal taste and expectations.
Having said that we had a listen to the Stooges album (vinyl) Marco had just bought and it was quite an impressive sound, no nastiness anywhere, clean, clear, slightly sweet but also quite analytical and 'studio control room' sounding. Bit of a shock for me but I have not really had a proper listen to the turntable since Marco set it all up a couple of months back.
To confirm to myself this wasn't a one-off I had a long vinyl session (6 hours!) on Friday night which was highly enjoyable. I quite like the extra 'rez' on offer over the Akais as it draws my attention more to the music. I got the impression that I was now getting the benefit of the quite expensive cartridge, especially noticeable with the top end such as snare strikes and cymbals which were properly resolved. Actually a little better than the digital front end(s) - oops! -
Lol, aside from anything else, I'm delighted that my visit has inadvertently reignited your interest in vinyl! :)
I agree. I thought that The Stooges album we played sounded fab, and could've enjoyed listening to many more such albums for hours, as the sound was both engaging and 'effortless', thus the Techy simply 'disappeared' from the equation, allowing the music itself to be showcased in all its glory.
Like I said though, if you want to move the vinyl replay side of your system forward significantly, replacing the stock arm for the likes of a Jelco SA-750 (fitted with one of Shuggie's collars) would really open up your eyes (and ears) as what your T/T is capable of, especially if you also took the opportunity to fit one of Speedy Steve's beautiful, custom-made ebony arm plates.
Do that, and trust me, you'll not be able to stop playing vinyl, and your T/T will move into a different league from your CDP, as good as that is. If you do get a new tonearm, I could even come down and help you set it all up, perhaps also with Alan or Jimbo.
As for the JM Labs... I know them well, as they used to form part of many of the systems demonstrated at Acoustica (in Chester), when I used to work there, although that was mostly with Naim gear. However, I'm well aware of their inherent sonic characteristics and 'house sound', which is typically French. You could hook up, for example, a pair of Triangles, and achieve a rather similar balance.
I enjoyed listening to the JM Labs, as it brought back memories, and it's difficult to find any major fault with them, certainly in a hi-fi sense, although their top-end 'sheen' and rather insistent treble emphasis, together with their somewhat overall 'cold tone', could be a problem in some systems, although it wasn't in yours.
Certainly, the JM Labs are more than good enough to tide you over until you embark on that active JBL set up you proposed. Furthermore, for analysis purposes, it's useful having access to a 'sorted' pair of speakers, amongst your semi-functioning 'vintage pap' ;)
Anyway, I hope you continue enjoying spinning those big black frisbees! :cool:
Marco.
As for the JM Labs... I know them well, as they used to form part of many of the systems demonstrated at Acoustica (in Chester), when I used to work there, although that was mostly with Naim gear. However, I'm well aware of their inherent sonic characteristics and 'house sound', which is typically French. You could hook up, for example, a pair of Triangles, and achieve a rather similar balance.
I enjoyed listening to the JM Labs, as it brought back memories, and it's difficult to find any major fault with them, certainly in a hi-fi sense, although their top-end 'sheen' and rather insistent treble emphasis, together with their somewhat overall 'cold tone', could be a problem in some systems, although it wasn't in yours.
Certainly, the JM Labs are more than good enough to tide you over until you embark on that active JBL set up you proposed. Furthermore, for analysis purposes, it's useful having access to a 'sorted' pair of speakers, amongst your semi-functioning 'vintage pap' ;)
.
I'll have you know that at least some of my vintage pap is fully functional. :)
I can imagine the JM Labs with Naim (the older Naim anyway, not heard the newer stuff) being too upfront and 'spikey' for want of a better word. I think the pre-power combo I have now is pretty much perfect for getting the best out of them. Was playing Foo Fighters 'Nothing Left To Lose' at the level they will go to just before you start to hear the midrange driver start to struggle, superbly clean but after it finished my ears were ringing slightly.
Would still like a bit more dynamics in the low bass and a little more 'meat' in the mid-bass even if it is a colouration. You kill the fat, you kill the burger.
I'll have you know that at least some of my vintage pap is fully functional. :)
Lol... There's more that's currently 'hospitalised' though, than otherwise! :D
I can imagine the JM Labs with Naim (the older Naim anyway, not heard the newer stuff) being too upfront and 'spikey' for want of a better word. I think the pre-power combo I have now is pretty much perfect for getting the best out of them. Was playing Foo Fighters 'Nothing Left To Lose' at the level they will go to just before you start to hear the midrange driver start to struggle, superbly clean but after it finished my ears were ringing slightly.
Yup, I'd go along with all of that.
Would still like a bit more dynamics in the low bass and a little more 'meat' in the mid-bass even if it is a colouration. You kill the fat, you kill the burger.
I think you can do it without introducing coloration - it just takes finding speakers you like that employ the use of bigger bass units and boxes. You can get deep bass, but not realistic scale, from sub-12" drivers, no matter how many of them you try and squeeze into slim, floor-standing cabinets!
Btw, this is what you should be doing with your Techy (pics courtesy of Speedy Steve):
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Armboard/8.%20Arm%20board%20iso%20view%20clean%20small.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Armboard/8.%20Arm%20board%20iso%20view%20clean%20small.jpg. html)
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Armboard/7.%20arm%20board%20top%20small.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Armboard/7.%20arm%20board%20top%20small.jpg.html)
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Armboard/9.%20Arm%20board%20iso%20view%202%20small.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Armboard/9.%20Arm%20board%20iso%20view%202%20small.jpg.html )
http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/speedysteve7/hifi/Armboard/10.%20Technics%20SL1200MKII%20small.jpg (http://s727.photobucket.com/user/speedysteve7/media/hifi/Armboard/10.%20Technics%20SL1200MKII%20small.jpg.html)
Jelco + SS armboard will make Macca a very happy boy! :trust:
Go on, you know it makes sense....
Marco.
Very nice vinyl collection Macca!
And i agree cleaning is fec*ing boring after a few albums! I usually try and do this while the missus is out, which means i can play music loud as h*ll while cleaning records! It helps! ;)
It would be interesting to hear your opinionon my NS-1000M's as i think they combine some of the good features of both your speakers?
Atb Mike
One thing that helps make record cleaning more interesting is doing it whilst listening to music, and analysing the 'before & after' effects of playing dirty, versus clean records... As the difference is so significant, and sonically rewarding, it simply spurs you onto cleaning more! :exactly:
Marco.
Marco - Not keen on losing the arm height adjustment. I like what Robbie has done to keep it using a Micro-Seiki arm (IIRC) think that would be the way I would go with it.
Mike - I only heard the NS1000M one time but I think in unsuitable room (it was a show) and possibly badly matched too. I tried a couple of years ago to buy some just out of interest but the asking prices were just a bit too much for a casual punt. Plus they are not really large enough for my needs.
Sure, a Micro-Seiki would be tops, but I wouldn't place too much importance on having arm-height adjustment 'on the fly'. You soon get used to not having it, if the sonic benefits gained from using a better tonearm outweigh the inconvenience - and trust me, they do!
One way or another though, once the novelty of having your new speakers wears off, if you don't want to return to your previous 'vinyl hiatus', you'll need to move things forward from mere chatting about doing something, to taking action... ;)
Marco.
Improving vinyl front end (turntable/arm/cartridge) I think will reward you hugely Martin especially as you have some substantial speakers now. It will enthuse your vinyl reinvigoration and unleash its potential which as Marco will surely testify is the equal if not the better of any digital system you could put together.
...
Mike - I only heard the NS1000M one time but I think in unsuitable room (it was a show) and possibly badly matched too. I tried a couple of years ago to buy some just out of interest but the asking prices were just a bit too much for a casual punt. Plus they are not really large enough for my needs.
Many people have similar experience to yours, ie hearing them in a unsuitable system, perhaps in a less than optimal room.
But yes, they are not cheap as chips. And they do lack bottom end in some situations... :)
Keep us posted on your vinyl wanderings! :)
on the way home from work last nght ran into my mate who is a professional musician (bass guitar) so he comes round to mine for a listen to the new speakers.
He has a good ear and as we have known each other for over a quarter of a century he will always tell it like it is. he spends a lot of time in studios and always takes an interest in the recording and mixing even though he is no expert in that area.
Played him ZZ Tops first album since it was to hand and he likes ZZ Top. He hemmed and hawed a bit. 'Good seperation', he says. 'Do you think it is a bit toppy?' I asked. 'Yes, a bit.'
So next album up I stuck on Jamiriquai: 'A Funk Odyssey' since this had given me a bit of a 'WTF' moment the previous nght. As I suspected his jaw was down on the floor.
'That bass is like what you get at a club that has a really good PA' he says.
And he is right, it is. I've had that album since it came out, played it through loads of speakers, never heard any do the bass as well as these JM Lab. But your typical rock album sounds a bit bass light. So what's the deal? A suckout? Maybe, but play some jazz with an acoustic bass, you can hear the bass going up and down the scale, nothing missing, no notes are enhanced, it is all good and even.
I can't figure it out.
Maybe need the xovers redone by paul to suit you sir :)
jandl100
14-10-2016, 14:43
Maybe your typical rock album doesn't actually sound like you think it should.
Maybe your typical rock album doesn't actually sound like you think it should.
Well maybe, but I don't think so. I've owned a zillion speakers so I've got a pretty good aggregate in my mind as to what they do/should sound like. I mean if everything I played sounded bass light well that's that. Toppy speakers, case closed. But some albums sound bass light and some have bass so good it is silly.
I'm actually thinking about trying different speaker cable, that's how puzzled I am.
walpurgis
14-10-2016, 15:43
I don't know what speaker cables you are using Martin, but if you go for a change, I'd avoid solid cored and plated cables. Pure copper multi strand is usually a good bet if you want to avoid a top end that draws attention.
We're in the same boat Martin. It's a system matching/synergy thing. When I swapped in a diffent pre/power the other night my speakers suddenly were perfectly voiced. If you can't get it right with cables and you're keeping your sources then you'll have to change pre or power if the JM Labs are to stay I should think.
Then that album that sounds good now will be a complete bass monster!
That's my experience anyway for what it's worth.
Just so happens that is what I have. The old Cable Talk 3 from the 1980s, copper muti-strand. But it really should not make a blind bit of difference so I'm loath to even bother swapping it out.
Speaker cables make a huge difference.....sometimes. Lol
walpurgis
14-10-2016, 15:50
Are you running pure copper interconnects? That could make a difference. It certainly does in my system.
jandl100
14-10-2016, 15:50
Well, if you and your pro mate think you have very realistic bass and you seem to think it's the best you have ever had on acoustic music where there is a reality to compare it to .... then your previous aggregate of speakers is a bit irrelevant.
Perhaps what you need is an equaliser so you can boost the bass when you want more welly than is strictly accurate.
We're in the same boat Martin. It's a system matching/synergy thing. When I swapped in a diffent pre/power the other night my speakers suddenly were perfectly voiced. If you can't get it right with cables and you're keeping your sources then you'll have to change pre or power if the JM Labs are to stay I should think.
Then that album that sounds good now will be a complete bass monster!
That's my experience anyway for what it's worth.
Can't be my amplification since that is textbook. But, I have heard speaker cable make a difference in the past so I suppose that is worth a try. As you say, if it works the bassy stuff will get bassier - that will be interesting.
Firebottle
14-10-2016, 15:52
My money is on room interaction, but don't worry I'm on my second beer so it might all be tosh.
My money is on room interaction, but don't worry I'm on my second beer so it might all be tosh.
Swine, I'll be catching you up when I get home. Been a hell of a day. My first thought was a room node/suckout but my room is big enough that should not be an issue above 30 Hz and as I said, bass lines play up and down the scale evenly, no boom or missing notes.
Geoff: Interconnects are NVA because I've tried loads with the amps and, although mostly the differences were barely audible,they were the Goldilocks. Speaker cable is Chord Odyssey 2 which I've had years and cost an arm and a leg. If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have spent that kind of cash on cable but they have worked well with all sorts of amp speaker combos over the last decade, so no major regret.
Jerry - I have a decent Sansui EQ unit I could put in. But that's desperate stuff.
Grant: My experience with speaker cable is that (assuming it isn't weird) it only makes a big difference if something else is wrong. Exception to that was NVA LS5 which was like adding a sub when I used it with my KEF Calindas, and with no downside.
Anyways home now and put on a live recording, Albert King with Stevie Ray Vaughn. This is phat in the bass on every other speaker I have, on these it just sounds balanced, not phat or light. Starting to lean toward's Jerry's diagnosis that the speakers are truthful to the recordings, and I just like phat bass.
As an example the Edingdale speakers (which I know a lot of you have heard/owned/own and are not far off the JM Labs in size and presentation) sound a bit more fruity in the bass. Not a lot, just a welcome touch.
Maybe I should just live with the truth. I mean that is supposed to be the whole point. High Fidelity. At least until I get the full digitally active system sorted anyway. Then I can set my levels exactly how I want them and bollocks to the truth. :)
Can't be my amplification since that is textbook. But, I have heard speaker cable make a difference in the past so I suppose that is worth a try. As you say, if it works the bassy stuff will get bassier - that will be interesting.
Thought you'd established the problem is the speakers? I wasn't knocking your amps. I meant that since the speakers have a more brightly lit balance than you like, if you want to enjoy them then something else in the chain will need to be swapped for summit a bit fatter sounding, if cables don't sort it. Easier to swap an amp than both sources. The over exuberant treble will make them sound bass light, that's my issue, except the treble is coming from my amps, not the speakers. Bet that at the end of a song where the bass and drums finish with a thud there's plenty of bass(because there's no treble to compare bass proportion to). Hope that makes sense, sounds like a load of tosh when I read it back but it's hard to put into words :)
Thing is John I'm a box swapper, I buy stuff I fancy trying, it stays until I see something else at which point it gets sold or more usually gets put to one side. I didn't expect these JM Lab to tick all my boxes, I just liked the look of them, the price was reasonable, they were within collecting distance and I fancied a go of them. Just fancied a modern speaker again after a run of vintage.
The amplification I settled on a while ago since it is sweet, clean and will drive any speaker I swap in without having to worry about compatibility. I could do better on the power amp front, but would be a lot of money for a little gain I think.
Sometimes I swap CD players. but I have too many of them so I've stopped buying them and concentrated on speakers. Now I have too many of them.
So I'm not overly concerned about getting a 'finished system', I love my music but I love trying different kit to reproduce it too. And getting it as right as possible, getting the best out of what there is to work with.
Anyway that was a complete ramble. To summarise: SQ is very good - ten grand dealer system level - I'm a fussy basterd - listening to Fun Lovin Crminals now - kicks ass. :)
UPS man just arrived with a big box
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0021.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0021.jpg.html)
I wonder what's inside??? :D
I hope you love it, it's crying our for speakers like yours ;)
Ali Tait
16-11-2016, 09:11
A big Class A amp perchance? :-)
It might be...need to have some breakfast first before I start to hack at the packaging.
Oooh... New toys - yum, yum! Enjoy :cool:
Marco.
hifi_dave
16-11-2016, 09:55
Almost killed me getting it down the steps..:rofl:
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 10:04
Almost killed me getting it down the steps..:rofl:
Wimp! :lol:
Almost killed me getting it down the steps..:rofl:
You told me you were going to get the collection man to do this for you :(
Giant killer amp me thinks!
Big fat inflatable lass:D
Got it out the box. It weighs more than a small moon. Condition looks perfect. Packaging was superb, thanks to Hi-Fi Dave I believe.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0022_1.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0022_1.jpg.html)
just been sizing it up by eye and I'm not certain it will fit into the rack. In fact pretty sure it won't, so might just wire it up sat on the floor.
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 11:27
Like the handles on the back. You'll probably find 'em handy and they'll protect your connections.
I'd have the amp off the floor a bit. If you get it warm the air will circulate around the cooling fins better.
It does sit on little feet so there is some clearance. Plus there is no installed heating in my house so the place is not exactly a sauna, especially this time of year.
Will attempt a soundcheck in a bit.
Got it out the box. It weighs more than a small moon. Condition looks perfect. Packaging was superb, thanks to Hi-Fi Dave I believe.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0022_1.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0022_1.jpg.html)
just been sizing it up by eye and I'm not certain it will fit into the rack. In fact pretty sure it won't, so might just wire it up sat on the floor.
Hefty amp! Have fun Martin!
Have a hernia more like.
:lol:
Safer on the floor. Much safer
Have a hernia more like.
You will need a small crane to lift that beast!
Well it would not fit in the rack. Too wide by a couple of inches. So had to wire it up as is. I use short 50cm interconnects so that now a problem, have had to re-locate the pre-amp to the now vacant bottom shelf of the rack so everything will reach everything else.
powered up, some clicking, some buzzing and then silence. turned the attenuation right up on the passive and put on something gentle to start with cf 'The Nightfly'. Both channels working fine, up the volume to proper levels, we have music!
I had almost fully expected to come back and say it sounds exactly the same as the XTZ it replaces. But it doesn't. Sounds a bit crisper and more focused. Obvious from the first few bars of music. Early days yet though.
Another pic. WAF is through the floor but fortunately I have no W to raise this as an issue :)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0023.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0023.jpg.html)
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 12:20
It'll probably take an hour to come on song. Once warmed up it'll likely sound rather different.
The amp goes into a start-up routine for the first ten seconds or so. All the led's light, the main relays click and then the bias led's go out into idling mode, where it runs cold until some music starts at fair volume..
I was told the amp needs 45 minutes to warm up sonically. I must say that my first couple of sessions kind of confirmed this as the amp hadn't been used for a good while before, but with regular use I don't think it has a temperament at all. The sound is indeed very taut, which is why I genuinely feel that your speakers will really benefit from it, as this generation of amps seems to love complex models with anything other than simple crossovers - all the phase angles and suchlike are taken with utter contempt by amps like this one ;)
Dave I am not disappoint.
It is a quite obvious step up on the XTZ which is in itself pretty good and a big step up from my old Linn LK100. Veils lifted, etc. Trying it with a bit of Marvin Gaye now, crikey!
Was not expecting this level of improvement.
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 15:47
When you get the chance, try a good TVC with it Martin. Trust me, you'll get a big surprise :).
I've compared my pre to TVCs more than once. It doesn't give anything away to them IMO.
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 16:05
Shame you're not nearer. I could change your mind about that.
Hows it sounding then Martin?
brian2957
16-11-2016, 17:10
Very nice Martin . Hope you're enjoying yourself :)
Hows it sounding then Martin?
Had to stop to cook my tea :) Just finished so will get back to it as soon as I've stocked up on beer, will have a serious listen then.
Had to stop to cook my tea...
So what culinary delights await you this evening - have you tried that bottle of red I left with you yet (the one you're not taking over to your brother for Christmas)? :)
Marco.
Firebottle
16-11-2016, 17:47
Sounds like it is working out very well for you Martin, great result :yay:
Will come over some time to have a listen :thumbsup:
So what culinary delights await you this evening - have you tried that bottle of red I left with you yet (the one you're not taking over to your brother for Christmas)? :)
Marco.
Sirloin steak and broccoli. It was good. Not had a go at that wine yet, can't do a whole bottle in one night with work tomorrow and it doesn't have a screw cap.
Sounds like it is working out very well for you Martin, great result :yay:
Will come over some time to have a listen :thumbsup:
Aye come on over when you can. It's all bit different from last time you were here.
Cracking looking amp Martin.
Wouldn't mind hearing that myself.
Could you turn it up a bit please, I've an east facing window I'll open.
Some old ZZ Top would be nice :D
LOL got ZZ Top's first album lined up for the next spot. Great minds think alike.
It is a purposeful looking thing. What with that and the speakers it does look like I'm taking it seriously.
Always been fascinated by Krell. Recall reading about them in the early 'Nineties and whilst I made the name connection with Forbidden Planet I thought it was just a coincidence. Figured the company was owned by someone called Jim Krell or something - you know what crazy names some of these Yanks have. When I found out they had pinched the name from Forbidden Planet I decided they were too cool for school. Never thought I would get to have one in my system though.
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 19:14
Yeah. I always fancied a Krell. But I'm very happy with my 'mini Krells'. :)
You'll need this next.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41619-Krell-KAV-250P
Love spending other people's money.
You'll need this next.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41619-Krell-KAV-250P
Love spending other people's money.
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been looking at that earlier...but I already have a stepped attenator passive pre and according to Jez (and some other double e types) you can't get better than that. When I went passive it was that moment where you think 'F**K me this is the sound I've been looking for'- or at least the basis of it - so doubt I would ever go back to active.
I'm mainly digital source and I don't care what anyone says, for me digital sounds miles better with a quality passive pre. It brings out its strengths.
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't been looking at that earlier...but I already have a stepped attenator passive pre and according to Jez (and some other double e types) you can't get better than that. When I went passive it was that moment where you think 'F**K me this is the sound I've been looking for'- or at least the basis of it - so doubt I would ever go back to active.
I'm mainly digital source and I don't care what anyone says, for me digital sounds miles better with a quality passive pre. It brings out its strengths.
Yes, have to agree, that has been my experience too.
Yo on a mobile can't see which one but if KSA300 then it is a very good amp.
A monster - from the id!!!:D
southall-1998
16-11-2016, 20:55
Yeah. I always fancied a Krell. But I'm very happy with my 'mini Krells'. :)
Don't you mean 'embryo Krells' :D
S.
Yo on a mobile can't see which one but if KSA300 then it is a very good amp.
A monster - from the id!!!:D
It's a KSA-50S
There is something approaching from the southwest. It is now quite close.
It's a KSA-50S
There is something approaching from the southwest. It is now quite close.
Ermm, a prevailing wind perhaps :scratch:
Sirloin steak and broccoli. It was good. Not had a go at that wine yet, can't do a whole bottle in one night with work tomorrow and it doesn't have a screw cap.
Lol... I don't buy wine with screw caps! :eyebrows:
Best plan is to use a wine pump. Drink what you want and pump the bottle afterwards. The remaining wine will be good to drink for 3-4 days. Hope you enjoyed your steak :)
Marco.
Ermm, a prevailing wind perhaps :scratch:
It's from Forbidden Planet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
Lol... I don't buy wine with screw caps! :eyebrows:
Best plan is to use a wine pump. Drink what you want and pump the bottle afterwards. The remaining wine will be good to drink for 3-4 days. Hope you enjoyed your steak :)
Marco.
It was good, maybe I undercooked it a fraction though.
walpurgis
16-11-2016, 22:15
It's from Forbidden Planet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
Great old movie. A proper classic.
It was good, maybe I undercooked it a fraction though.
Have you got a good griddle pan? Out with of barbecuing, that's the best way to cook steak. I'll get you one of these for your Christmas: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Bottle-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE/ref=pd_lpo_201_bs_t_2/256-3827303-7299326?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=37YD9SZJRZ0GS2YKPJNP
That way you can enjoy some quality wine, over the course of a few days, which comes with corks fitted ;)
Marco.
I just use a frying pan. Fry it up with a bit of butter.
Congrats on the desireable power amp! Krells are one of the essential building bricks of modern high end in my view.
And, regarding the cooking i assume you just put your frying pan on top of the KSA?
Just play some rock'n'roll and youre good to go with some frying! :)
It's from Forbidden Planet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet
Oh, how apt, miles above my head and travelling at the speed of light :)
Never seen it, will keep a look out for it in the TV listings.
Gordon Steadman
17-11-2016, 10:41
I even have a still from that as one of my desktop pics:cool:
Absolute classic film. My uncle took me to see it when it came out and I was a bit terrified. Love it now and watch it regularly.
https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5664/30907177022_63a1950097.jpg
Got a special restored edition of that.. one of the best ever sifi films, even to this day....kinda surprised its not been readapted actually
I just use a frying pan. Fry it up with a bit of butter.
Can be difficult frying a thick steak with butter unless you like it very rare.. normal butter burns too easily. Used to do my steak diane with butter.. a load of butter as it makes the base sauce. Add some herbs and worstershire saucehalf way then a splash of brandy and flambé... need fillit cut down middle and flattened into a butterfly shape... superb
Got a special restored edition of that.. one of the best ever sifi films, even to this day....kinda surprised its not been readapted actually
A new treatment has been kicking about Hollywood for about a decade, it just never gets made.
Mind you I can't see the point, it is already a perfect film, a re-make could only be worse.
Please don't confuse the cheap KAV Krells with the KSA's and FPB's. the KAV was a cheaper range with a thinner sound and the power amps had no protection - from personal first hand experience...
In the mid 90's, custom was to use a KSA amp with an ARC preamp and the two different brands kind of worked well together at the time. The 50S was reviewed as slightly sweeter than the bigger ones, so a passive preamp with modern source is almost certainly better with this than any almost active preamp I'd say, unless the preamp was designed as a fully balanced design from input to output, as say, the period Levinsons were for example - this era of Krell KSA's were pretty well balanced all through, the single ended RCA inputs a secondary consideration in this case I understand.
Fully agree about 'Forbidden Planet.' One of my all time favourite films :)
I just use a frying pan. Fry it up with a bit of butter.
Much tastier if you sear it properly, get some caramelisation going on, and create that nice blackened 'ribbed' effect on the surface of the steak [which is why you need a griddle pan]... It's all about maximising flavour! :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
17-11-2016, 18:03
Fully agree about 'Forbidden Planet.' One of my all time favourite films :)
Couldn't resist watching it again this afternoon. Although very much of it's time - was it really 1958? Yikes, I was 11 when I saw it first! - in some ways it was way ahead. Considering how the effects were done, they were really good.
I don't find the effects as distracting as the CGI efforts in modern films. They sort of fit with the whole look and character of it. Agree it was a scary film to watch as a little tyke.
Anyway back to Krell - I'm starting to get a handle on it. When you consider the price difference between this and the XTZ (which will also run pure class A although you lose a bit of wallop) the differences are not huge. It is a step up, but not sure that it is enough of a step up that a civilian would notice. Which shows how good the XTZ is. The Krell is slightly sweeter, more focused and more solid in the bass, maybe a little warmer there too. I noticed on fast drum rolls that there is less smear with the Krell, rapid fire transients like that are always a good test for an amp.
It so good enough that even though I am supposed to be evaluating it, I am forgetting about it and listening to the music instead
Despite the massive external heatsinks, or maybe because of them, it doesn't even get warm even after 4 or 5 hours of use at volume. The XTZ, in class A, would get very warm in the same space of time. Not worryingly so, but warmer than a typical big amp gets.
Just need to get my SLP1200 cd player working again and that will be it, perfect system, me done and dusted.
Yeah. As if.
I heard a KSA300 driving Apogee Calipers and some big Usher Compass Dancers in the same session and in both cases I was impressed. With a Krell X64 DAC and matching pre.
The lower KAV (250a is the one I know) series is still good and fantastic on Jerry's MBLs. Not so good on my speakers I have to say.
I imagine this one would sound good on your Apogees, as in sweet and clean, but at only 50 watts I doubt it would do the business on the wallop side of things.
walpurgis
17-11-2016, 18:51
Just need to get my SLP1200 cd player working again and that will be it, perfect system, me done and dusted.
Yeah. As if.
Didn't know you had one.
I have two. Neither works anymore but when they did...lets put it this way when people say digital playback has advanced massively over the years I have a quiet chuckle. And the sheer weight behind the sound makes most other players sound like toys in comparison. It was really hard to wean myself back to ordinary players when they died.
walpurgis
17-11-2016, 19:02
Shame they don't work Martin. Will you get them looked at?
I wouldn't mind trying the SL-P1300, so I could run the digi out through my DAC. Dunno if they ever did that one in 240v though.
Dont think you can get the bits now for them alas. Surprised they dont start making them again. make a fortune selling the bits alaone far less the full machine. I guess the plant etc has been disposed of though.
Alan says he might have a look at them some day. I'm convinced the issue is not the lasers but some component that has died, or a connector ribbon that has failed. I've had that before with cd players. You have the laser replaced because that is what everyone says, thinking lasers wear out like a stylus. But the fault persists, so it wasn't the laser.
EDIT having looked into it, it is possible to get almost everything but laser and mechanism.
I really must be going deaf... Into the IMF Compacts in the workroom, it was easy to get the middle bias lamps alight on the KSA50S and on funky bass stuff, the blue full-on lamps came on and the case started cooking nicely in half an hour or so. The Spendors did the same thing and the red bias lamps came on at quite moderate levels, the enclosed cabinet setting making things too hot for me after 30 minutes - the top plate got very hot and let alone the heatsinks. Obviously, free space (that I couldn't give it) and a cool room would pay dividends and maybe the Focals are rather more efficient than the Spendors, the BC2's being around 84db I think. Don't worry, I didn't ever strain the amp thermally, 'cos I checked it every five minutes or so and switched off when it got too warm. The plateau bias does mean the amp cools down quickly when not being driven hard and it'll idle barely warm all day, unlike its predecessors, which were 'full on' all the time.
The Focals are 90dB, and not a particularly difficult load compared to some WAF towers, impedance gets a bit low in the bass but obviously not a problem for an amp that can double down.
Not managed to get any of the LEDs to light up yet
How low do they get do you reckon martin.?
I think it is about 2.5 Ohms.
Not managed to get any of the LEDs to light up yet
:eek: :scratch:
I swear, I had the middle led's on at modest volume with the BC2's - and they can't go that loud in any case, especially at their great age. Mind you, an assumed 6db sensitivity difference between yours and my speakers is four times more power needed for the same volume...
Either that or you have dodgy crossovers in your Spendors.
Compacts need a bit of power to go loud. I'd imagine Spendors would too, but not that amount unless you are stone deaf. ................... or as Martin says, the speakers need some attention. Ive ran compacts on a 20w t amp. didnt go very loud and sounded poor; needed more current(not a benign load
Just can't see any reason why a Krell should struggle with a BC2. Really odd.
Arkless Electronics
18-11-2016, 18:22
BC2's are a fairly easy load and IIRC about 87dB/W. Mine work great with my Leak Stereo 20 ;)
Just got an LED to light for about 2 seconds. With some hip hop though. Just after I turned the level up by 3dB. Not done it since though.
The JM Labs I'm using are a bit mid forward, just a touch but enough to give a it more presence that makes you keep the volume down, wheras I guess the Spendor has a BBC dip, Or Dave likes to blast it out. Or both, Fifty watts isn't that much really.
walpurgis
18-11-2016, 20:56
Just got an LED to light for about 2 seconds.
I wouldn't worry too much. The amp has internal protection. It'll just switch off if you do anything it doesn't like.
(did you get the dedicated 15 amp mains lead with it? Apparently, it's essential)
Yes I did. As thick as a baby's arm.
Well not quite. But it is hefty. I did take the precaution of skimming the manual before hooking it up. I mean something like this you don't piss about, Like the first time you get a hold of a proper firearm. You're excited but cautious too
walpurgis
18-11-2016, 21:19
Like the first time you get a hold of a proper firearm. You're excited but cautious too
Quite so. :guns: :guns: :eek:
Absolutely gorgeous amp. I hope it does the business for you long term.
Have you got a good griddle pan? Out with of barbecuing, that's the best way to cook steak. I'll get you one of these for your Christmas: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vacu-Vin-Vacuum-Bottle-Stoppers/dp/B000GA3KCE/ref=pd_lpo_201_bs_t_2/256-3827303-7299326?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=37YD9SZJRZ0GS2YKPJNP
That way you can enjoy some quality wine, over the course of a few days, which comes with corks fitted ;)
Marco.
That's what I use, though it's not often that I actually have to use it! :eyebrows:
Anyway a superb acquisition Martin, and definitely one that deserves a bottle of good wine to celebrate your good fortune. Always good to hear when a music lover comes close to finding their ideal system, and can thereafter just settle down to enjoy the music. I have 'been there' for a few years now, but because of my fascination with the whole vinyl playing mechanism, I'm likely to be dabbling a little longer with cartidges and arms.
Congratulations :)
jandl100
20-11-2016, 11:53
I think it's usual for Krell amps to exceed their spec in terms of power delivery.
I owned an original KSA50 for quite a while and I recall seeing a technical review which measured it as 90wpc.
Similarly for my KAV250a (which Justin and I loved with my MBLs, a rather forward nature notwithstanding) - rated at 250wpc, measured at 330wpc.
I'd imagine the KSA50S is similarly under-specced.
Lovely looking amp, btw. :thumbsup:
--- just looking at the Stereophile review - JA reckoned he could just about get 100wpc out of it at 8 ohms.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-50s-power-amplifier-measurements#zSWO1vecYjDsQ1uI.97
Thanks lads but I am still a long way from end game. The system is now an enormous mullet. Allowing for inflation it is now £12K worth of amps and speakers being driven by a £400 Sony CD player. Oops.
I did swap my Parasound in, which is a bit higher end, but it has a bit of roughness to it that us now ruthlessly exposed. So I have a smooth Sony in but....you can easily tell it is a budget player. It is a SACD job so is smooth sounding and makes the system relaxing to listen to, which I like, but it doesn't have the clarity of the Parasound. I really don't want to buy any more CD players so am thinking about getting a DAC.
It is a real old game with amps and speaker matching. When I put the original KSA 50 with an Air Tight passive on my Duettas, it just sucked enormously. Flat soundstage, useless and undynamic sound. My 211s just killed it for dead.
However, the KSA 50 with an Audio Research LS26 was almost dream good on the Mark & Daniels. The ARC giving a great sense of space and imagery.
WRT to a DAC, Martin, try and borrow a Jolida Glass FX. In stock form at version II I could live with one and did for a very short while. It's good.
Tubes in a DAC? Not so sure about that. Am thinking more about getting something from the pro audio side.
Tubes in a DAC? Not so sure about that. Am thinking more about getting something from the pro audio side.
Might be an idea. Try anything until something works!:)
That is my usual modus operandi.
I'd just like to thank you for buying this, Martin. If you hadn't grabbed it, I'd probably have had it for no other reason than I've never owned any Krell gear. But then I'd have had 5 amplifiers in the house (and a hernia). Which would be a bit :mental:
Anyway ... impressive lump of kit :thumbsup:
You're welcome Peter. Regrettably I have way more than 5 amps in the house, and I strained a muscle moving the Krell about. You are just older and wiser ;)
Like all big Krells, it preferably needs space around it to thermally breathe. My speakers are nominally 86db, but having tried them with some 'Hybrid' (Disappear Here) yesterday, I'm beginning to realise how loud I tend to play music when herself's not here and the 42 year old speakers cannot even begin to handle copious full-on low bass levels, as they double and triple with little provocation anything much below 80Hz (and my music in general has much synth bass below this frequency which gives pressure waves in full flow).
Roll on vintage JBL's...... (sorry for the thread crap)
Mr Kipling
25-11-2016, 23:17
Just need to get my SLP1200 cd player working again and that will be it, perfect system, me done and dusted.
Yeah. As if.
Would you like a working one for your two?
Last night I got one of mine working and today I replaced all the tactile switches. Out of the 27, 8 were OK, 1 was inoperable (Track 4) and the rest were high - which would explain why it didn't want to stop. Want to re-cap the main board - and hopefully not bugger it up. Don't really want to touch the power supply/DAC/audio out board as Silmic and audio grade Elna ones are used and changing them would probably impact on sound.
Still in bits at the moment:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/72b78cebbfc6d400decf73e3f59977b1.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/0597a2317b180c263ccbd4ced75969cf.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/e54595bedb53e52df8caee88a07c28b6.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/f2c883ce6ede825bd2112a656af50771.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/6e4ea93051bbbd779dfd42b18925d42b.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/30efa2da5a57ee637f557d489c191442.jpg
If you do, and if I could get both working, you can one back.
It's a one with balanced outputs, but not a BBC modified one.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
And .... if, at the end of all that, there's a spare one for sale, :callme:
Great that you got one working, Stephen, it proves it is not the laser that is the problem with these players. I have two, a BBC version and a standard one, I'm hoping Alan may have a go at them in the New Year.
Mr Kipling
26-11-2016, 10:57
Your choice, Martin.
Pretty chuffed to get one working, and automatically thought of you.
It's not simply one item failing. It's a number. A common fault is the motor drive chip burning out. Failing caps is another. The two large decoupling caps on the power section of the main board are showing some signs of leaking.
The laser is available being used in models from the budget 110 and up. The problem is setting it up. Then again, at one time Philips used set a model up with instruments, photograph the trim pots for the laser, and then the operator on the assembly line used the photo to set the laser up, which obviously took less time.
Well, 2 working, 3 to go.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Sounds like a good plan martin
I've decided that something in this lash up isn't working. Hard to put my finger on it, doesn't sound harsh or hard but it is tough to relax to.
After a fair few albums I think it is there is just too much leading edge emphasis and the notes are just not 'developing' enough. Decided against my better judgement to mess with the speaker cable. My thinking is that the Chord Odyssey 2 that I normally use is just over-egging the pudding in that department (it is known for being bright and clear which is probably why it suits my vintage speakers but perhaps not these ultra modern Focals) so went for a look for my Belkin Pure AV cable. Couldn't find it but did find some NVA cable so have put that in.
Seems like a difference, possibly an improvement. Does seem a little smoother and better balanced. Will need to listen a bit more before I come back with a verdict.
Okay, it appears I was a bit over cautious in my previous post. I guess the Krell just doesn't like Chord Odessey speaker cable, this is a big improvement.
Two albums I have had trouble getting to sound right for a couple of years, ZZ Top's First Album (too thin and hard) and Simply Red's Stars (hard and overly compressed - and stop sniggering at the back that boy) sounded spot on.
The emphasis on the leading edge is gone but the sound is much more natural and realistic as a result. I'm quite taken aback. And bear in mind I am still using jumpers to the mid and tops that are nothing more than nondescript (although virgin) lengths of 79 strand.
For some fun try a really cheap Chinese preamp (£30+ single input/output jobbie from ebay), Martin. See what happens. £30 down. Might get the edge off things and add some soundstage.
The last time I did I really enjoyed using it in my 2nd system. I found one I could put a Tesla E88CC in and it sounded fab in front of a Behringer A500 and the M&Ds. Well, as fab as it had any right to. It broke because it was cheap shite, but it was good while it lasted.
What I am saying really is try an ultra cheap valve pre in front of the Krell, cos I think it'll really help it sound better. If it does, get something higher quality. Or borrow one.
I'm saying it because my experience of a passive plus a KSA50 1st gen wasn't good, as I said earlier. I'd defo dump an ARC pre or the like in front.
Cheap Chinese valve pre-amp? That's crazy talk. Just crazy talk. I've had that sound in the past and moved on. I know what I'm after - I think - and I'm now getting close - I hope!
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