View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up 2: Lash Harder
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Got these Cambridge Audio speaker cables from Jerry:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bBcAAOSwBqZZfJ2K/s-l1600.jpg
Funny thing this is with speaker cables at the moment. I've been using Chord Odyssey 2 for several years since, in a moment of madness, I bought a 3 metre bi-wire set brand new. Made no difference at all in my system at the time but I carried on with them. But when I got the JM Lab speakers and the Krell power amp they just were not working. Great clarity, but the sound was unbalanced, too much upper mid masking everything else. It was, as they say, 'fatiguing'.
At the time I had no way to know this was the speaker cable, indeed some would say that it is not possible that it could be. I had just changed amp and speakers, could be anything going on. But I thought I would try the cable first. Put some NVA cable in, much better balanced but still too much mid. Vocals shouldn't be blotting out everything else. And the sound was bland. Clean but bland.
So it was a change in sound, even if still not quite right, it did seem to indicate to me that the Krell/JM Lab pairing was sensitive to the nature of the wires in between them. So I got some NVA LS5 which I had used before and which is not shy in the bass. Initially this seemed to be the perfect balance. Lots of weight down below, actually thought I might be able to give up my ambition of upgrading the speakers to JBL 4365.
But after extended listening I again started to think that the sound was a bit bland. Trying to work out what exactly was happening I concluded that the upper mids and top were quite far back in the mix. Now I hate systems that put the vocalist out on the carpet in front of the speakers. That just isn't right. The stereo action should all be behind the plane of the speakers. But this was just too far that way. Also I could detect a little distortion in the mid-bass unit when playing stuff with pumped up and compressed bass, Steely Dan doing 'Jack Of Speed' set this off.
Adding to the complication here, the speakers are bi-wire and came without the links. I'd made up some jumpers, only about an inch long, from 79 strand. So I wasn't using the same cable all the way to the mid and top. The Krell amp does not have the facility for bi-wiring.
So, I was looking for some (3 metre or more) cable that was 2 into 1 (or 1 into 2 I suppose if you are going from amp to speaker) and that might provide a 'Goldilocks' solution, in that it would be balanced somewhere between the Chord and the NVA. Jerry was selling this cable that was exactly that so I thought I would give it a try.
It's weird stuff, like computer ribbon connector. I suppose the idea is that it is flat and you can run it under the carpet. Anyway I connect it up, sounds very different to the NVA cables, much livelier, a bit more like the Chord, but more balanced than the Chord. Nothing swamping anything else. First test passed. So far I've had a listen to:
Sade: 'Diamond Life' (I know what you are thinking and your right, this is not an album to test with. But it was already in the player and I had to check to see if I had wired everything up right, then ended up listening to it all).
Steely Dan: 'Countdown to Ecstasy' In 'Show Biz Kids' there is someone hitting a big tambourine all the way through over on the right. That came across very well. You could practically see it.
Isaac Hayes 'Don't Let Go' - bass is good, not weak, although would prefer more. But I think that is the speakers, I could use another octave down below and they just don't have it. Too small for the room. Bass tone is very good though, and no wooliness. Different bass guitars sounded different.
The Cult 'Love' - Thought I would go for something a bit raucous to see if it got fatiguing. It didn't. Owned this since it came out, have the vinyl and the cd, played both a hundred times and know every note. What I noticed this time was the recording itself, much more details came out, it sounded like what it is, a good but not particularly slick recording made on a budget. Not heard it like that before, ever. It was no less enjoyable, more so.
Jerry sad these cables have 'good rez', he is right. What I'm trying to get with this system is a good balance between an uncompromising window on the recording and something that sounds good to listen too as well. And again I know what you are thinking and you're right (again). 'The moon on a stick.' Well, we shall see. :eyebrows:
But that is it so far. I have learnt not to make any judgements until I've played through at least half my collection ;) Or at least twenty or thirty particular albums. It can be the thirtieth that finally shows up what you really knew all along but were denying. Plus I intend to get a DAC and that might change things again anyway.
walpurgis
08-08-2017, 19:23
They are decent cables Martin. I heard nothing wrong with these when I had a set. They just get on and do the job.
It interests me, though, that of 4 sets of speaker cables each present the sound quite differently. Or at least differently enough to be obvious in the differences. It really shouldn't happen. I'd prefer it didn't. I've swapped speaker cable and heard no difference before. But that was in previous lash-ups that were 'lower end' than what I have now. The only time I have heard differences before was when there was an amp/speaker mis-match, i.e the amp was not comfortable driving the speakers. But that is not the case here so I just don't know.
walpurgis
08-08-2017, 19:42
It's true that the more revealing the system, the more the effect of minor changes like swapping cables can be discerned. Interconnect and speaker cable swaps have a very audible influence in my setup.
there is the twist Martin. No such thing as never, or cant
New in the rack for Autumn - Sony X505ES cd player. With the wooden end cheeks. Forgetaboutit:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21457&d=1506245581
back of the net!
i have the x555es,'astounding quality',not my words but the words of shaking stevens!:lol:
It gives good bass, not so convinced about the other end. Nowt obviously wrong with it but I've heard better. I am being fussy. It is the best cd player I've owned apart from maybe the Technics broadcast. It's quite similar to that in fact.
Not sure where this and the 555 fit in, was the 555 earlier or later than the 505?
it would appear from a quick google the 555 is 91-92 and yours is from 93-94.
visually they look the same to me.
VesaLato
25-09-2017, 14:27
505 is propaply a cost cut version of 555...
Far from it. Identical other than a development of the laser mechanism and change of layout inside.
So I've tried 5 different sets of speaker cables and getting nowhere.
Worryingly I couldn't even get back to the sound I had 6 months ago despite replicating that set up exactly.
The sound is lovely and clean but totally unengaging. There is no crunch, and you've gotta have the crunch.
So what was going wrong? Something must not be working right. This is about £15K worth of kit (at new 2017 prices) so how come it sounds so lifeless?
Suspicion fell on the crappy jumpers I made up when I got the JM Lab speakers a year ago. My good friend and colleague Mr Geoff 'walpurgis' offered to knock me up some jumpers from bits he had lying around. At the same time another member offered me a set at a very reasonable price.
So yesterday two sets of jumpers arrived in the mail. I opened one at random and it was the set Geoff made up. Took out my efforts which were just little strips of generic 79 strand speaker cable and put the new ones in.
Holy mother of God what a difference! I was really expecting no change and just to eliminate another possible. In fact this has completely sorted the sound and I am now getting the full benefit of the new Sony CD player. The crunch is back, the sense of atmosphere and space, the sense that you are listening to instruments playing in an acoustic and not just 'sound'. Had 5 hour session playing all sorts just to make sure. No question about it, problem sorted.
The jumpers may be made up from bits but the build quality is excellent. If I'd bought them retail at fifty or even a hundred quid I would not be disappointed. Here they are in situ:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=21541&d=1507366879
The speaker cable I also bought from Geoff, No idea what it is but it works fine, the sound is well balanced. Just need to do some fine tuning with speaker positioning and maybe a little room treatment on first reflection points since I think I can get better imaging than I currently have. Tinkering, in other words.
I know what you are thinking and you're right. Changing jumpers should not make such a difference. That is until you see how tarnished the ones I made up have become in just 12 months. Since they were just bare wire connectors, and probably not very good quality copper, they have degraded really badly. No wonder the sound went off for no discernible reason. Anyway, as always, attention to detail gentlemen, attention to detail!
brian2957
07-10-2017, 09:27
Nice one Martin ( and Geoff ) . Everything counts IMO , even those silly little jumper leads . Enjoy your music :)
When I pulled out my cables from speaker the metal had cracked although still in one piece. when I replaced cables sound was improved. another connector was damaged too. one of my falls causing it I guess.
I think I was way too blasé about the jumpers. Tiny little bits of wire, as long as they conduct electricity what difference can it make? But as they tarnished the sound degraded quite obviously. These new ones are terminated with banana plugs at one end and spades at the other so the problem should not re-occur. Another hi-fi lesson learned the hard way for me :)
walpurgis
07-10-2017, 09:35
Glad you're sorted mate.:)
Yep well pleased, thanks again. Had an engineer here at 0830 this morning with a new router so I've got my broadband back as well. Happy days.
jandl100
07-10-2017, 10:00
Jumpers, I've a set of kimber 4tc if you'd like to try them, just out of interest, I'd want them back!
Cheers Jerry but I think I am sorted.
Okay bit of an update. Moved the speakers back about 6 inch and tweaked a little on the toe in. Much better for soundstaging and bass, surprising what a small adjustment can do.
the real turn-up is that I've been comparing the Sony X505ES against the Parasound CDi1000 and I think I prefer the Parasound. Quality wise there is not much of a difference, if any, but the Para seems to emphasise leading edges a bit more than the Sony which is just a little soft in a system that is already a little soft. By that I mean rim shots and hard struck snares don't whack you between the eyes like they can on some systems. They still don't with the Parasound in but there is just a little more bite to the sound that attracts my attention to the music.
I'm actually suspecting the Krell power amp as the cause of the slight softness. I've had the 'whack between the eyes' effect with all of the other kit in use so that pretty much rules that all out. Thing is the Krell does the harmonics so well, up there with the best I've heard like the Radford STA15. If this is the Achilles heel it isn't much of one.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 18:13
'Softness' is not something I've heard Krell amps accused of Martin.
Or JM Lab speakers either....
Who knows, maybe it is my hearing or something ;) With the Sony in it was just too smooth, like 'B&O lifestyle' sort of sound. Super clean even at high spl and dynamic too, but just lacking a tiny bit of bite.
Should also point out that the room is quite heavily damped, possibly more so than is optimal. In theory, the speaker end should be live and the listening end damped, which I used to have, but a large amount of clutter has accumulated at the speaker end over the last couple of years.
Hi Martin.
Not sure how the JM Labs are constructed, but whenever my system starts to seem a bit lifeless for no apparent reason, I usually try tightening up the bolts holding in the drivers ... can sometimes make a real difference ime. :thumbsup:
Good tip Peter, but I just took a look and they have some weird sort of fixing, not just normal screws or bolts. Never seen anything like it. Got nothing that will fit them anyway. Nothing is ever straightforward.
It is only a very slight 'trait', I'm not fretting over it. But there is still some work to be done here.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 20:09
Having looked at a few rather difficult to make out online photos, I suspect the driver securing bolts could be 'Torx' type.
There are two types. One with a 'pip' in the centre and one without.
Like this:
http://i65.tinypic.com/3354bad.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/1625ohe.jpg
Suitable driver sets are available on ebay. Not usually too expensive.
Cheers Geoff - that does look like them. But some of them look to be threaded. I don't think I can do much with them.
Not certain this is an issue. I've tried to tighten up the drivers on speakers in the past and never encountered any that were slack.
doubt torx bolts will loosen. they sually are very tight
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 20:29
doubt torx bolts will loosen. they sually are very tight
Never found one I couldn't undo. The door hinges on my Mercedes were held on with them. Now they were tight, but I got them undone after busting the first driver I tried. :D
Never found one I couldn't undo. The door hinges on my Mercedes were held on with them. Now they were tight, but I got them undone after busting the first driver I tried. :D
lol... meant loosen by themselves mate
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 20:32
lol... meant loosen by themselves mate
:lolsign:
jandl100
17-10-2017, 20:33
A quote from the Stereophile review (https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-ksa-50s-power-amplifier-page-2) of Martin's amp ----
"And perhaps that's also my only real criticism: that it has lost some of the slam, the "Wham, Bam, thank you, Dan!," that characterized the original KSA-50"
So maybe it is just one of the compromises in the amp's sound.
Well there is certainly a slight 'veiling' coming from somewhere. I've had it better than this before. At a loss really. On paper everything is right.
One thing that has been bothering me is that the plugs on the speaker cable are quite loose fit into the sockets on the Krell. although they are a tight fit at the other end into the speakers. Could this be a factor?
if you have an assortment of cables etc try a few plugs til you find 4 tight ones and the fit them. if they are all loos then get the sockets replaced.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 20:54
I'd suggest Nordost type 'Z' plugs. They make good tight contact and can even be opened out a bit to make them tighter.
Like these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-Gold-Plated-BFA-Plugs-High-Quality-Z-Type-Speaker-Banana-Connectors-BFAPLU02-/161649275565?epid=1926252999&hash=item25a30c32ad:g:lnIAAOSwFJBZUScO
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 21:00
What interconnects are you using Martin? They can make a big difference.
Haven't soldered in 20 years. That's not going to happen. Will try some other cables with chunkier plugs.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 21:03
Haven't soldered in 20 years. That's not going to happen. Will try some other cables with chunkier plugs.
I linked to screw on plugs mate.
What interconnects are you using Martin? They can make a big difference.
They were selected after a lengthy trial process, I don't reckon so. Not impossible but way down on the list of possibles.
walpurgis
17-10-2017, 21:12
I use a variety of interconnects. Nordost if things need livening up with a bit more clarity, Cardas or Audio Note if I want a calmer sound. And others.
I've just dipped into this thread, after not having visited it for a while, and am sorry to hear, mate, that you're struggling again with your system...
Just to pick up on something... You said that the "crunch" was back after fitting Geoff's speaker jumpers, and as far as I can see you haven't changed anything else since then, so how come the "crunch" has now gone? :scratch:
To my ears, your system has never lacked any "crunch", and that was before the Krell arrived and doubtless other things you've done to your system since the last time I was down.
The 'politeness' you're hearing with the Sony player is 100% correct, as that tends to be their 'house sound', especially vintage ones, if you don't mod them (update them with some new components). Mine was rather like that too, until it (and the DAC) were suitably 'pimped', and having heard them both, I'm sure you'll agree the mods have sorted out any 'politeness'! :eek:;)
I'm afraid that this is the problem with buying well-regarded vintage gear and kind of expecting it to instantly blow you away...
Out with of speakers, it rarely happens, as tired caps and resistors, no longer performing to spec, in key parts of the signal path, will need replacing [they may even have deteriorated further since you've been using them], and I'm almost certain that this will be a major source of the disappointing sound you're currently experiencing.
Therefore, you need to address that issue, ASAP [the Krell may also need re-capping], otherwise the lack of excitement will do your nut in. I thought you were getting some guy to do this work for you - is that still happening?
Marco.
I've just dipped into this thread, after not having visited it for a while, and am sorry to hear, mate, that you're struggling again with your system...
Just to pick up on something... You said that the "crunch" was back after fitting Geoff's speaker jumpers, and as far as I can see you haven't changed anything else since then, so how come the "crunch" has now gone? :scratch:
To my ears, your system has never lacked any "crunch", and that was before the Krell arrived and doubtless other things you've done to your system since the last time I was down.
The 'politeness' you're hearing with the Sony player is 100% correct, as that tends to be their 'house sound', especially vintage ones, if you don't mod them (update them with some new components). Mine was rather like that too, until it (and the DAC) were suitably 'pimped', and having heard them both, I'm sure you'll agree the mods have sorted out any 'politeness'! :eek:;)
I'm afraid that this is the problem with buying well-regarded vintage gear and kind of expecting it to instantly blow you away...
Out with of speakers, it rarely happens, as tired caps and resistors, no longer performing to spec, in key parts of the signal path, will need replacing [they may even have deteriorated further since you've been using them], and I'm almost certain that this will be a major source of the disappointing sound you're currently experiencing.
Therefore, you need to address that issue, ASAP [the Krell may also need re-capping], otherwise the lack of excitement will do your nut in. I thought you were getting some guy to do this work for you - is that still happening?
Marco.
as a fellow sony owner could you expand on the upgrades please.?
Audiocom did most of the work mate, mainly in respect to re-clocking and paying major attention to the upgrading of the PSU arrangements - about £2k's worth in total. And the overall improvement was phenomenal.
However, I'm not advocating that Martin should do the same, simply that if he wants to unlock the potential of his Sony player [the latent potential in which is considerable], the first step he needs to take is replace and upgrade some of the electronics, which will be well past their sell-by date. And any competent EE could do that for him.
Marco.
Just to pick up on something... You said that the "crunch" was back after fitting Geoff's speaker jumpers, and as far as I can see you haven't changed anything else since then, so how come the "crunch" has now gone? :scratch:
To my ears, your system has never lacked any "crunch", and that was before the Krell arrived and doubtless other things you've done to your system since the last time I was down.
The 'politeness' you're hearing with the Sony player is 100% correct, as that tends to be their 'house sound', especially vintage ones, if you don't mod them (update them with some new components). Mine was rather like that too, until it (and the DAC) were suitably 'pimped', and having heard them both, I'm sure you'll agree the mods have sorted out any 'politeness'! :eek:;)
I'm afraid that this is the problem with buying well-regarded vintage gear and kind of expecting it to instantly blow you away...
Out with of speakers, it rarely happens, as tired caps and resistors, no longer performing to spec, in key parts of the signal path, will need replacing [they may even have deteriorated further since you've been using them], and I'm almost certain that this will be a major source of the disappointing sound you're currently experiencing.
Therefore, you need to address that issue, ASAP [the Krell may also need re-capping], otherwise the lack of excitement will do your nut in. I thought you were getting some guy to do this work for you - is that still happening?
Marco.
Yes there is crunch and the sound is generally of a good standard. The only thing I have done is move the speakers a little. I still think something is lacking, but I've got to the point of wondering it is just me. Sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees. I'll give it a few days and go back to it fresh.
Ironically my old system (XTZ amp and the vintage Akais) sounds really superb doing TV duties. What can you do?
As for the Sony I've got a fair few Sony players going back more than 20 years so I know the house sound. I never expected it to blow me away, it was far from a flagship player so some corners have been cut. No discrete analogue out stage for instance. It is a good player, a cut above, it is more surprising to me that the Parasound is on a par with it. Although that was not a budget player in its day, either.
Having the Krell serviced has crossed my mind and I can get it done but it is lot of cash to spend if it is not the problem. I know it is over 20 years old but I don't know how much use it has had. Cosmetically it is as new.
As for the modding/servicing the player my EE is not keen to do mods without a full guide as exactly what to do. So I need to trawl the DIY forums at some point.
Having the Krell serviced has crossed my mind and I can get it done but it is lot of cash to spend if it is not the problem. I know it is over 20 years old but I don't know how much use it has had. Cosmetically it is as new.
Doesn't matter mate, how little it's been used. It could've been sat in a box for all that time and never been used. Electrolytic caps will still age and drift from spec. Trust me, if you have the Krell properly serviced, it'll come back a different animal.
Only you though, can decide whether you rate the Krell sufficiently enough to spend the necessary funds... Would you like me to pop down and give you my opinion on how things are sounding and see if there's anything I can do to help first, for free, before you start throwing pound notes at the problem? :)
I've been wanting to hear the Krell for a while anyway!
Marco.
A second opinion would be very useful. I'm all out of ideas.
No worries. Is your day off usually a Monday? If so, how about a week this Monday, that's the 30th Oct? :)
Marco.
Bigman80
19-10-2017, 19:26
Am happy to cast an ear also as you aren't that far from me either. Sometimes it's all in the mind.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
No, I only get the weekend off. If I want a weekday I have to book it as leave and I've got none left between now and January. So would have to be a Saturday or Sunday, if you can do it.
Am happy to cast an ear also as you aren't that far from me either. Sometimes it's all in the mind.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
You are welcome anytime, Oliver.
Bigman80
19-10-2017, 19:31
You are welcome anytime, Oliver.Sweet, I'll let you know when I have some days and we can pick one.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Okies, as I'm probably the most free with my time, it's best if you guys propose the date. November's liable to be fairly busy for me, so I'd prefer to do it this month, and not this weekend, which leaves the following one. Saturday 28th Oct would be best.
But if it has to be November, I'll try and squeeze something in! :cool:
Marco.
Bigman80
19-10-2017, 20:35
Okies, as I'm probably the most free with my time, it's best if you guys propose the date. November's liable to be fairly busy for me, so I'd prefer to do it this month, and not this weekend, which leaves the following one. Saturday 28th Oct would be best.
But if it has to be November, I'll try and squeeze something in! :cool:
Marco.Ah, struggling with October but leave it with me.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
No worries, matey.
Marco.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 08:41
Krell has got a rep for "slam, bam, thank you, ma'am" .... but I've had 4 Krell amps and only one did the slam thing, mind you that one was awesome and the best I have heard in that aspect of sound! :eek: - a KAV250a power amp.
The others -- a refurbed original KSA50 power amp which if anything was a bit soft and polite, a 300i integrated which was perhaps a bit short of half way there and a 400xi integrated which took half a pace back again.
So whilst some Krells can certainly deliver that aspect of sound I would regard it as far from certain to do the slam thing just cos it's got a Krell badge on.
Real "slam" is actually very rarely had, ime, and it comes down to the amp. If the amp can't do it (and most can't) then it just ain't gonna happen.
Agree, a lot of Krell is actually on the warm side. Big, rich and bold, but not necessarily the quickest, which is what determines slam.
Real "slam" is actually very rarely had, ime, and it comes down to the amp. If the amp can't do it (and most can't) then it just ain't gonna happen.
Amp, and also its relationship with the partnering speakers, Jerry [the two work in unison], as you ain't gonna get much slam with ANY amp, if on the end there are simply a pair of diddy-sized 'squawk boxes'! ;)
"Slam" is largely (but not all) to do with shifting air. And there is no shortage of it my system... :hairmetal::eyebrows:
We'll see whether we can introduce more into Martin's.
Marco.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 09:34
"Slam" is largely (but not all) to do with shifting air. And there is no shortage of it my system... :hairmetal::eyebrows:
Well, no, one of those quite rare occasions when I disagree with you, Marco.
It's about control as well as air volume being shifted.
I've heard many a large driver sound soft and mushy and some quite small drivers sound nicely slammy when suitably amped.
Yes, that's why I said not all. Control, as you say, is the other part :)
So if you want to feel REAL slam, then you need an amp with enough power and control, driving capable loudspeakers, with suitably large cones, shifting plenty of air!
:rave:
I've got high-resolution recordings of drummers playing drum kits, which from the outside of the room, or downstairs, would probably fool most folk into thinking that there was a live drummer in there, such is the sheer weight and visceral intensity of the sound....
Marco.
Bigman80
20-10-2017, 09:44
Amp, and also its relationship with the partnering speakers, Jerry [the two work in unison], as you ain't gonna get much slam with ANY amp, if on the end there are simply a pair of diddy-sized 'squawk boxes'! ;)
"Slam" is largely (but not all) to do with shifting air. And there is no shortage of it my system... :hairmetal::eyebrows:
We'll see whether we can introduce more into Martin's.
Marco.Daft question, are we taking audio goodies?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Probably not, more playing around with set-up (mainly with speakers), although we may also be trying some different cables and mains leads.
Marco.
The other thing to consider, which may be responsible for the current lack of 'excitement' in Martin's system, is that big powerful solid-state amps, such as Krells, primarily designed for difficult loads, and providing speakers with grip [which he doesn't own or need], usually have a high damping factor, and in the wrong system that can have the effect of sucking the life out of the music - especially if needing serviced.
One thing you could try in the interim to us visiting, Martin, is plumb in the XTZ again. Or if you don't want to disturb the TV system, and still have a power amp from 'he who cannot be named', which I think you said that you had somewhere, use that, and then see if despite it resulting in some sonic compromises, the 'excitement' (and possibly "crunch") comes back...
Please do this when you can and report back :)
Marco.
Bigman80
20-10-2017, 11:06
Probably not, more playing around with set-up (mainly with speakers), although we may also be trying some different cables and mains leads.
Marco.Ah, that's ok.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
The other thing to consider, which may be responsible for the current lack of 'excitement' in Martin's system, is that big powerful solid-state amps, such as Krells, primarily designed for controlling hard-to-drive speakers and providing them with grip [which he doesn't own or need], usually have a high damping factor, and in the wrong system that can have the effect of sucking the life out of the music - especially if needing serviced.
One thing you could try in the interim to us visiting, Martin, is plumb in the XTZ again. Or if you don't want to disturb the TV system, and still have a power amp from 'he who cannot be named', which I think you said that you had somewhere, use that, and then see if despite it resulting in some sonic compromises, the 'excitement' (and possibly "crunch") comes back...
Please do this when you can and report back :)
Marco.
I might do that. It is only 30 watt amp but the speakers are an easy load.
BTW we won't be able to play around with mains leads. The Krell comes with its own mains lead and the Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. The Parasound CD doesn't but I already have a fancy lead for that. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Not sure what all the discussion about 'slam' is all about. I've never mentioned there being a problem with slam. The issue is far more subtle, you'll see when you have a listen. Or you'll tell me that there's nothing wrong with it and it is all in my mind ;)
Don't think you've been totally happy since you got the JM Labs speakers Martin. You've been trying your best to make it happen but maybe you need to get back to something with big bass drivers?
I might do that. It is only 30 watt amp but the speakers are an easy load.
Should be fine, as the JM Lab/Focals are fairly efficient and an easy load.
BTW we won't be able to play around with mains leads. The Krell comes with its own mains lead and the Sony ES cd player has a captive lead. The Parasound CD doesn't but I already have a fancy lead for that. It makes no difference whatsoever.
Okay dokes! :)
Marco.
Don't think you've been totally happy since you got the JM Labs speakers Martin. You've been trying your best to make it happen but maybe you need to get back to something with big bass drivers?
John, I've never been totally happy even before the latest speakers. I got the JM Labs as I wanted a change from that 'vintage speaker sound.' But on balance I think I prefer the vintage speaker sound. So you are probably right. I might go back to looking for some big JBLs again. They just come up for sale so infrequently.
tubehunter
20-10-2017, 15:49
your problem is:
P90SA passive pre
into
Krell KSA-50S power amplifier Specifications
Input sensitivity: 1.34V RMS. Gain: 26dB. Input impedance: 47k ohms.
Try an active pre
Happy Days
The other thing to consider, which may be responsible for the current lack of 'excitement' in Martin's system, is that big powerful solid-state amps, such as Krells, primarily designed for difficult loads, and providing speakers with grip [which he doesn't own or need], usually have a high damping factor, and in the wrong system that can have the effect of sucking the life out of the music - especially if needing serviced.
One thing you could try in the interim to us visiting, Martin, is plumb in the XTZ again. Or if you don't want to disturb the TV system, and still have a power amp from 'he who cannot be named', which I think you said that you had somewhere, use that, and then see if despite it resulting in some sonic compromises, the 'excitement' (and possibly "crunch") comes back...
Please do this when you can and report back :)
Marco.
Interestingly, amp damping factor is considered to be irrelevant driving planar magnetic speakers. And planar magnetic headphones. Just thought I'd say. I have an amp with variable DF, and I can't really hear a difference on the Apogees.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 15:56
your problem is:
P90SA passive pre
into
Krell KSA-50S power amplifier Specifications
Input sensitivity: 1.34V RMS. Gain: 26dB. Input impedance: 47k ohms.
Try an active pre
Happy Days
What you need is the Jez Arkless buffer between passive pre and power amp. ;)
He made me one, if you recall, and it works fab, but not needed in my current setup.
Jez reckoned the buffer would be in its element in this situation.
Happy to loan it to you to try out, Martin.
Interestingly, amp damping factor is considered to be irrelevant driving planar magnetic speakers. And planar magnetic headphones. Just thought I'd say. I have an amp with variable DF, and I can't really hear a difference on the Apogees.
You won't - the mass of the diaphragms of planar speakers such as Apogees, Magnaplanars or electrostatics is very low; far lower than the mass of the cone of a conventional driver.
your problem is:
P90SA passive pre
into
Krell KSA-50S power amplifier Specifications
Input sensitivity: 1.34V RMS. Gain: 26dB. Input impedance: 47k ohms.
Try an active pre
Happy Days
Good suggestion, Dunc! Martin could try the buffer thing, if he wants Jerry to loan him it, and/or I could take the Croft with me to perform active preamp duties :)
Marco.
Interestingly, amp damping factor is considered to be irrelevant driving planar magnetic speakers. And planar magnetic headphones. Just thought I'd say. I have an amp with variable DF, and I can't really hear a difference on the Apogees.
Yup... Like I said "in the wrong system", which yours isn't, so it doesn't apply ;)
Marco.
You won't - the mass of the diaphragms of planar speakers such as Apogees, Magnaplanars or electrostatics is very low; far lower than the mass of the cone of a conventional driver.
I'm not so sure. I have an Apogee bass panel foil hanging around. I'll go weigh it now.
The buffer won’t add any gain though, and that Krell has low gain / low input sensitivity. As a comparison my amp has 0.8v input sensitivity and 33db gain, which on paper is a better match for passive or unity gain active (buffer) preamps.
46 grams.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171020/a51a18b15687a792426a60a63e1eba97.jpg
The buffer won’t add any gain though, and that Krell has low gain / low input sensitivity. As a comparison my amp has 0.8v input sensitivity and 33db gain, which on paper is a better match for passive or unity gain active (buffer) preamps.
Ah, I had no idea how the buffer thingy Jerry was recommending works, so that's out then. But Dunc's observation is right, so Martin needs to hear the Krell with an active preamp, to hear what he might be missing, and also his existing passive pre with a different power amp.
Marco.
https://www.ebay.com/p/12-Tall-Roll-Subwoofer-Cone-Cn1230rstx/7003210588?iid=132227131178
If the mass of that cone in a cheap sub is typical at 140g, and the Apogee bass panel is equivalent to 3 of them, which it is supposed to be, we have 420g versus 46g i.e. a factor of ten lighter.
More of a difference than I appreciated as the foil/kapton/glue mix doesn't feel light. The bass panel's mass will be beyond that of a mylar only panel, but they just can't do substantial dynamic deep bass in ESL designs.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 17:17
I don't think Martin has ever said that his system needs more gain :scratch:
If it doesn't then the buffer may well deliver the required goods.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Re the compatibility of the Krell to a passive Duncan may have a point and Justin already advised me some months ago that I would not get the best out of the Krell with a passive. Problem is I am a bit short on active pre amps. I can use the pre amp stage of an old Harmon Kardon receiver or the pre amp stage of an XTZ A100 integrated, although the latter is hooked to the TV at the moment since it has a DAC with optical input but I do have another amp with a DAC in so I could swap that in and free up the XTZ.
But neither the XTZ or the HK have particularly impressive pre-amp stages.
Marco if you could bring your Croft that would be great. I know it is a pain to shlepp it with the power supply box and that. Oliver says he will bring the Slagle autoformer passive that impressed me at NEBO. So a bit of a bake off developing...probably have room for one more if anyone else fancies dropping over for a couple of hours.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Re the compatibility of the Krell to a passive Duncan may have a point and Justin already advised me some months ago that I would not get the best out of the Krell with a passive. Problem is I am a bit short on active pre amps. I can use the pre amp stage of an old Harmon Kardon receiver or the pre amp stage of an XTZ A100 integrated, although the latter is hooked to the TV at the moment since it has a DAC with optical input but I do have another amp with a DAC in so I could swap that in and free up the XTZ.
But neither the XTZ or the HK have particularly impressive pre-amp stages.
Marco if you could bring your Croft that would be great. I know it is a pain to shlepp it with the power supply box and that. Oliver says he will bring the Slagle autoformer passive that impressed me at NEBO. So a bit of a bake off developing...probably have room for one more if anyone else fancies dropping over for a couple of hours.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
was going to suggest a tvc or sagle.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Re the compatibility of the Krell to a passive Duncan may have a point and Justin already advised me some months ago that I would not get the best out of the Krell with a passive. Problem is I am a bit short on active pre amps. I can use the pre amp stage of an old Harmon Kardon receiver or the pre amp stage of an XTZ A100 integrated, although the latter is hooked to the TV at the moment since it has a DAC with optical input but I do have another amp with a DAC in so I could swap that in and free up the XTZ.
But neither the XTZ or the HK have particularly impressive pre-amp stages.
Marco if you could bring your Croft that would be great. I know it is a pain to shlepp it with the power supply box and that. Oliver says he will bring the Slagle autoformer passive that impressed me at NEBO. So a bit of a bake off developing...probably have room for one more if anyone else fancies dropping over for a couple of hours.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
That's based on a KSA50 and Jerry's 250a sounding dimensionally flat on Apogees. Though Jerry actually preferred my Air Tight over the Cayin valve pre with the 250, he was the odd one out of three. The KSA50 was bollocks with a passive.
I agree get Marco's Croft in and see what it adds to the party. Gear matching can be unpredictable, though.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 17:31
Though Jerry actually preferred my Air Tight over the Cayin valve pre with the 250, he was the odd one out of three.
The story of my life, that. :lol:
The story of my life, that. :lol:
Yeah you don't like Tan-noise. Odd one out of, ooohhh... :)
I don't think Martin has ever said that his system needs more gain :scratch:
If it doesn't then the buffer may well deliver the required goods.
No I don't think it does. I barely get halfway to zero attenuation for most stuff, just beyond half for really uncompressed recordings. Using a buffer goes against my purist tendencies though ;) It is under consideration though. Thanks for the offer Jerry.
QED (The mass of the polymer diaphragm of a Quad ESL is typically 100mg, or lower.)
For what area of panel? Which Quad etc? A comparable area to the panel I posted HAS to be more than 0.1g.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Cool, I'll be interested to know what you think, although I don't think what I've suggested will tackle the issue as effectively as what Duncan (and Justin) has.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
No worries. Feel the love of the AoS community! :grouphug:
Marco.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 17:39
No I don't think it does. I barely get halfway to zero attenuation for most stuff, just beyond half for really uncompressed recordings. Using a buffer goes against my purist tendencies though ;) It is under consideration though. Thanks for the offer Jerry.
But the buffer is exactly the circuitry that an active pre provides that makes the difference from a passive! :doh:
You purists. :mental:
:lolsign:
Well, aside from anything else, it involves another set of cables! :ner:
Marco.
jandl100
20-10-2017, 17:41
Yeah you don't like Tan-noise. Odd one out of, ooohhh... :)
I dunno about that - I've come across many folks who share my aversion to the horrid things. ;)
I dunno about that - I've come across many folks who share my aversion to the horrid things. ;)
Well the new ones are a bit shit with the exception of Kingdom Royal (only when driven right) and even some of the Prestige ones can sound OK sometimes when they aren't suffering from a tendency to overdo bass in an uncontrolled way.
Firebottle
20-10-2017, 17:48
Well, aside from anything else, it involves another set of cables! :ner:
Marco.
Looks like I need to come over with my KIN and show you all how it's done :ner: :eyebrows:
............... and get the TT connected again to show what you are missing ;)
Looks like I need to come over with my KIN and show you all how it's done :ner: :eyebrows:
I think you should. But what happens if the Croft walks all over the KIN? Runs the risk of an ahem KINshite verdict:D
Is that a risk you can afford to take?;):):lol::eyebrows:
But the buffer is exactly the circuitry that an active pre provides that makes the difference from a passive! :doh:
You purists. :mental:
:lolsign:
No it isn't, because it doesn't amplify the signal any whereas a pre-amplifier does. I think that buffer you have is designed to provide a better impedance match.
But what happens if the Croft walks all over the KIN? Runs the risk of an ahem KINshite verdict:D
Lol - you're on form today!!
However, I don't want to deflect attention from the main event (trying to fix the issue in Martin's system), with a 'willy-waving' sideshow between active valve preamps.
Therefore, unless Martin (as it's his gaff) particularly wants to hear the Croft in his system, in which case I'll duly oblige [no problem in shlepping it down], then if Alan wants to bring along the KIN, we can simply use that for active duties, and be done with it :)
Marco.
Okay have put in a power amp that is intended to be a perfect match for the pre-amp. Not changed anything else. Going to have a listen to a variety of stuff before I comment further on SQ.
Re the compatibility of the Krell to a passive Duncan may have a point and Justin already advised me some months ago that I would not get the best out of the Krell with a passive. Problem is I am a bit short on active pre amps. I can use the pre amp stage of an old Harmon Kardon receiver or the pre amp stage of an XTZ A100 integrated, although the latter is hooked to the TV at the moment since it has a DAC with optical input but I do have another amp with a DAC in so I could swap that in and free up the XTZ.
But neither the XTZ or the HK have particularly impressive pre-amp stages.
Marco if you could bring your Croft that would be great. I know it is a pain to shlepp it with the power supply box and that. Oliver says he will bring the Slagle autoformer passive that impressed me at NEBO. So a bit of a bake off developing...probably have room for one more if anyone else fancies dropping over for a couple of hours.
Really appreciate all the help and contributions here folks. You're a bunch of stars.
The ONLY reason a passive preamp would possibly compromise your Krell is the sensitivity issue if used with old sources with say 500mV output not going loud enough - the KSA 50S needs 1.3V for full output. NOT AN ISSUE WITH CD sources or most other digital ones I believe - some phono stages have good gain as well ;) Even with my old tuners, I never ran out of volume travel, but head-bangers might possibly and it's on these low-output sources a line buffer would be needed possibly, but not particularly a digital source with a 2V maximum output, which would give some headroom.
One reason I sold the Krell to you (the main ones were financial and the potential overheating issue where I needed to site it) is the trap you're falling into here due to what I feel may be incorrect advice. the Krell carries a certain cachet and reverence about it, meaning a cheaper 'twin-pot-in-a-box' isn't going to be judged 'good enough' for the almighty Krell power amp, which because of its ability to drive itself up the side of a bloody house if needs be (oh alright, a 2 ohm loading) and the main reason for its size and considerable cost when new (even your baby one was four grand at least) - large power supply and beefed-up casework to accommodate it, means it can be used with all sorts of over complex expensive speakers and the current output helped with low impedance US-made panels too. To keep with the 'image,' a matching active preamp would be regarded as mandatory by these people to get the 'best' out of it, despite most older Krell or usual ARC preamps having a 'sound' to them (the ones I heard do, although it doesn't necessarily make them 'worse' as such).
Then of course 'ordinary cables' wouldn't be good enough, so a few more grand on these is deemed necessary to bring the best out from this amp as ordinary cables aren't expensive enough or good enough looking... - See where I'm going here?
Apologies for diving in too soon possibly, but the Krell amp is an AMP, not bloody audio royalty, and it's main function was to drive complex speaker loads of the time that many other amps would limit themselves with and to provide heaps of current into low impedance loads. Your speakers needed this ability far more than mine, and I have no money to get on the cachet bandwagon of a 'matching' preamp, whatever expensive brand that should be, let alone foo cables of the right price tag....
The only way your *particular* power amp really *could* be improved - and this following the Stereophile review - is by possibly using a fully balanced preamp (I'm thinking the Levinson ML28 as Barry here uses as a start, as I believe it's circuit is fully balanced from input to output, needing very careful component matching I remember and you can get the odd one for under a grand now I think). I follow a path that tells me that 'balanced' isn't really needed for domestic setups requiring shorter interconnect runs, but if the Krell is positioned in between the speakers and fed by several metres of interconnect, then *in this particular instance* it might give a better sound than a 'pot-in-a-box,' which is potentially better than anything else otherwise - you do know that transformer 'preamps' have hundreds of feet of wiring in and across the signal path and they 'will' add distortion of sorts, even if it's benign... A precision attenuator such as you have is but one high quality resistor ONLY in the signal path, the others just 'shunting away' not-needed voltage (I'm hoping that's correct enough to save censure from Rothwell and others).
If I've got it all wrong then I apologies. Krell is one of those brands build like an outhouse and designed for a particular market, as was Mark Levinson of old and other juggernaut amps on the domestic market. This particular market is a kind of 'club' which I used to hang on the fringes of and the chap who passed it to me originally was very much of this band of loyal followers, raving about the 'cheap' mains cable he'd just sold at a mere £760! (his was from further up the range as were his 'Transparent Audio Reference' signal leads). Last I heard, he had a D'Agostino amp and twenty grand ML panels used with his freshly restored once £20k Krell CD/Digital preamp. The KSA 50S was a temporary standby amp while his FPB 400 was being serviced...
The ONLY reason a passive preamp would possibly compromise your Krell is the sensitivity issue if used with old sources with say 500mV output not going loud enough - the KSA 50S needs 1.3V for full output. NOT AN ISSUE WITH CD sources or most other digital ones I believe...
So are you disputing the figures that Duncan posted earlier then Dave, in terms of the low input sensitivity of the Krell? Also, to your knowledge, has the Krell ever been serviced/re-capped? :)
Marco.
For what area of panel? Which Quad etc? A comparable area to the panel I posted HAS to be more than 0.1g.
According to Wikipedia it is 3mg, but it is not clear to which panel (treble, mid or bass) that figure refers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Electrostatic_Loudspeaker
My quoted figure of 100mg was from a reference that I now cannot find. The only other references state the mass of the diaphragm is very similar to the mass of the air to which it couples - but that is somewhat ambigious.
Whatever the true figure is, it will most certainly be less than 1g.
walpurgis
20-10-2017, 18:47
The ESL 57 diaphragm is Melinex I believe. It has very low mass so will not need electrical damping at audio frequencies. However, it can resonate like a drum skin when stretched taut, as in the Quad electrostatics. I've always noticed this slight 'drumskin effect' (colouration) when listening to them. Doesn't detract from their enjoyablilty though.
So are you disputing the figures that Duncan posted earlier then, Dave? Also, to your knowledge, has the Krell ever been serviced/re-capped? :)
Marco.
The ONLY person to delve inside was ME! I removed a film of dust here and there, took some pics which may have been posted here once until Photobucket removed them and the top was put back on. Apart from some slight heat discolouration on the boards around the input transistors (daily-chained in a current-output formation I understand - this topology apparently being a D'Agostino 'thing'), the caps were fine with no bulging I could see and were original. Unlike the earlier models, this amp only gets really hot when worked hard and when idling, it's as cool as any other more normal amp. Macca told me the bias lights hardly ever came on in his usage, where here even with the Spendors, I had the intermediate ones coming on and half an hour in the cupboard at this level the case was rather hot (I only had two sessions of forty minutes using it this way), so I scuttled back to my geriatric Crowns with no loss in sonics *on my particular stereo!* I'm not in the slightest saying anyone else would agree with me here and I'm no longer at all able to even begin to claim 'golden ears.'
I can only state how the amp worked for me under my 'real world' conditions and loosely quoting your own 'vibes,' people can quote as many figures as they like, but how does the bloody thing WORK in practise? I used my old and less old sources first with a (*** P50) passive preamp (10k Log pot) and then with a 'single ended' active one offering up to 10V clean into a typical amp load (5V into a 600 ohms load), my usual geriatric amps requiring around a Volt at 20 - 25k input impedance.
The ONLY person to delve inside was ME! I removed a film of dust here and there, took some pics which may have been posted here once until Photobucket removed them and the top was put back on. Apart from some slight heat discolouration on the boards around the input transistors (daily-chained in a current-output formation I understand - this topology apparently being a D'Agostino 'thing'), the caps were fine with no bulging I could see and were original. Unlike the earlier models, this amp only gets really hot when worked hard and when idling, it's as cool as any other more normal amp. Macca told me the bias lights hardly ever came on in his usage, where here even with the Spendors, I had the intermediate ones coming on and half an hour in the cupboard at this level the case was rather hot (I only had two sessions of forty minutes using it this way), so I scuttled back to my geriatric Crowns with no loss in sonics *on my particular stereo!* I'm not in the slightest saying anyone else would agree with me here and I'm no longer at all able to even begin to claim 'golden ears.'
No problem, but it would be prudent to check the caps, and most likely replace them, on any 20-year old SS amp, not just the Krell. Therefore, aside from anything else, I suspect that there will be some mileage in that for Martin, if he decides to go there.
I can only state how the amp worked for me under my 'real world' conditions and loosely quoting your own 'vibes,' people can quote as many figures as they like, but how does the bloody thing WORK in practise?
Indeed, but that's precisely what Martin is doing: commenting on how the amp is working in practice, in the context of his system, and observing that he hears a lack of 'excitement' in the sound, which the Krell *could* be responsible for, or more likely IMO, it's sub-optimal combination with his passive preamp, due to the low input sensitivity of the Krell.
Nevertheless, all will be revealed when, those of us present at Martin's forthcoming mini-bake off, use our EARS (not any figures) to assess what the issue is, and whether an active preamp solves it - or if it's simply a compatibility issue between the Krell's high damping factor and Martin's speakers, which a change of power amp should resolve :cool:
Marco.
The ESL 57 diaphragm is Melinex I believe. It has very low mass so will not need electrical damping at audio frequencies. However, it can resonate like a drum skin when stretched taut, as in the Quad electrostatics. I've always noticed this slight 'drumskin effect' (colouration) when listening to them. Doesn't detract from their enjoyablilty though.
The electrostatic forces acting on the inner electrode (the conductive Mylar film) are such that the diaphragm is made exceptionally rigid: the forces won't allow for break up, and the diaphragm moves as a planar whole. What you might be hearing (and what some call a 'credit card' colouration) is that due to the less than rigid outer frame of the speaker. This is most noticable at around 10kHz. Also some colouration is caused by the clamping of the diaphragm at the edges, where obviously it cannot move as a whole.
According to Wikipedia it is 3mg, but it is not clear to which panel (treble, mid or bass) that figure refers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Electrostatic_Loudspeaker
My quoted figure of 100mg was from a reference that I now cannot find. The only other references state the mass of the diaphragm is very similar to the mass of the air to which it couples - but that is somewhat ambigious.
Whatever the true figure is, it will most certainly be less than 1g.
Hm no I think for an equivalent area to the panel I posted it would weigh over 1g. For an ESL bass panel of equivalent area I believe you'll find a thicker diaphragm is what you would need. I don't think we could find an ESL with as large a bass diaphragm as the mid of the Apogee range Duetta, though.
I do think it will be less than 46g by a factor of 10 or more, though, at a guess. Most of the mass in mine is aluminium.
I am not totally sure. So don't quote that anywhere as some sort of truth anyone please:) Not that you would anyway LOL.
No problem, but it would be prudent to check the caps, and most likely replace them, on any 20-year old SS amp, not just the Krell. Therefore, aside from anything else, I suspect that there will be some mileage in that for Martin, if he decides to go there.
Marco.
Good luck to him at nineteen or so electrolytics a side from memory ;)
By the mid 90's, caps had improved I think and I also believe Krell had *possibly* learned their lessons from earlier models which baked their amps hard continuously. If the voltage of the caps is a goodly margin over the voltages they need to deal with and they're not thermally stressed, it's my current belief that they shouldn't go off unduly in domestic use, and this particular amp had had an easy life as a secondary item, according to the chap who passed it to me. Always happy to be proved wrong though and that amp isn't the easiest to strip down and as it was working, no way would I needlessly ruin any value in it by attacking it with gusto. No hums or nasty noises (their transformers are SILENT too despite the size) and as far as I could ascertain, both channels 'sounded' the same and the bias lamps worked together, so I assume the amp was behaving itself.
I also believe it depends on the make of caps used. The very old US amps I use a lot originally had sealed caps which appear to have a very long life. the chunky looking alternatives they went over to in the mid 70's don't seem as long lived, despite showing no external issues - I'm about to experiment with one of my preamps from this firm, as the particular phono stage has a slight background high pitched 'hum' not noticed in the other one, which is reminiscent to me of a failing supply cap and this preamp sample has had a hard life in storage as well as much use when it was newer.
I don't think we could find an ESL with as large a bass diaphragm as the mid of the Apogee range Duetta, though.
My D'Agostino/ML owning friend had Duetta Sigs for many years, driven by a Krell KSA80 and I think a KRC-2 mostly, although the power amp was changed to a KSA250 I think later on. When he flogged them, the bass panels were wobbling almost uncontrollably on any kick drum thwack. They sounded great in his room when they were newer though and vocalists had proper 'height' which conventional boxes aren't so good at.
My D'Agostino/ML owning friend had Duetta Sigs for many years, driven by a Krell KSA80 and I think a KRC-2 mostly, although the power amp was changed to a KSA250 I think later on. When he flogged them, the bass panels were wobbling almost uncontrollably on any kick drum thwack. They sounded great in his room when they were newer though and vocalists had proper 'height' which conventional boxes aren't so good at.
As a general rule by the ribbon manufacturer anymore than 8 years is a warning sign for a pair of Apogees. Some will last a lot longer if they are played infrequently and at low volume. Some will sound fine for far longer unless you pair them with an optimally broken in set, in which case you'll know they are far from optimal..The same is true of ML panels, though they can fail far sooner, and after owning ML panels for 17 years I know which I think is the more robust solution, and it isn't ML:D
The trouble with the ML solution is the stat coating is directly exposed to the air. It is a plus over Quads in terms of performance but it isn't in terms of longevity.
Good luck to him at nineteen or so electrolytics a side from memory ;)
By the mid 90's, caps had improved I think and I also believe Krell had *possibly* learned their lessons from earlier models which baked their amps hard continuously. If the voltage of the caps is a goodly margin over the voltages they need to deal with and they're not thermally stressed, it's my current belief that they shouldn't go off unduly in domestic use, and this particular amp had had an easy life as a secondary item, according to the chap who passed it to me. Always happy to be proved wrong though and that amp isn't the easiest to strip down and as it was working, no way would I needlessly ruin any value in it by attacking it with gusto. No hums or nasty noises (their transformers are SILENT too despite the size) and as far as I could ascertain, both channels 'sounded' the same and the bias lamps worked together, so I assume the amp was behaving itself.
I also believe it depends on the make of caps used. The very old US amps I use a lot originally had sealed caps which appear to have a very long life. the chunky looking alternatives they went over to in the mid 70's don't seem as long lived, despite showing no external issues - I'm about to experiment with one of my preamps from this firm, as the particular phono stage has a slight background high pitched 'hum' not noticed in the other one, which is reminiscent to me of a failing supply cap and this preamp sample has had a hard life in storage as well as much use when it was newer.
Well, as us subjectivists always say: 'The proof of the pudding is in the listening'! So if Martin does decide to get the amp recapped at some point, we'll find out if your theories are correct, or not ;)
Marco.
Well, as us subjectivists always say: 'The proof of the pudding is in the listening'! So if Martin does decide to get the amp recapped at some point, we'll find out if your theories are correct, or not ;)
Marco.
I've put at least 600 hours on the Krell since I got it. Maybe that has tipped it over? Having just spent a few hours listening to a fairly new (1 year old) power amp I'm thinking the Krell does not sound like it used to. I can get it recapped if it needs it, that's no big deal.
I've put at least 600 hours on the Krell since I got it. Maybe that has tipped it over?
It's always a possibility... It would be interesting, before you do anything, to have the caps measured and see if they're still within spec. Perhaps your EE could do that? If they've drifted badly, they'll *definitely* need replacing, and then it's almost certain that you'll experience some significant sonic improvements.
Having just spent a few hours listening to a fairly new (1 year old) power amp I'm thinking the Krell does not sound like it used to. I can get it recapped if it needs it, that's no big deal.
So is the "crunch" back and/or the 'excitement'? What have you perceived about the difference in sound in general, minus the Krell, with the other amp in? :)
Marco.
Just a lot more life to it. Not a subtle difference. Sounds a lot like the Krell used to sound. Not quite, the Krell had a little bit more to it, but very close. All I've done is swap power amps. So has to be the power amp?
or connections..or....:D
nowt simple with audio
walpurgis
20-10-2017, 21:58
Martin. If you're seeing Oliver, get him to bring the Slagle AVC along. You may have a big surprise, after all, you have nothing to lose from hearing it. It'll certainly have more body and vitality than a straightforward passive.
Bigman80
20-10-2017, 22:04
Martin. If you're seeing Oliver, get him to bring the Slagle AVC along. You may have a big surprise, after all, you have nothing to lose from hearing it. It'll certainly have more body and vitality than a straightforward passive.This is happening Geoff, arranged earlier. Just need to get a date that suits everyone!
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Hm no I think for an equivalent area to the panel I posted it would weigh over 1g. For an ESL bass panel of equivalent area I believe you'll find a thicker diaphragm is what you would need. I don't think we could find an ESL with as large a bass diaphragm as the mid of the Apogee range Duetta, though.
I do think it will be less than 46g by a factor of 10 or more, though, at a guess. Most of the mass in mine is aluminium.
I am not totally sure. So don't quote that anywhere as some sort of truth anyone please:) Not that you would anyway LOL.
I decided to calculate the masses for the diaphragms of the Quad 57 ESL.
The bass panels are made of 12um thick SARAN (polyvinyledine chloride, density 1.63g.cm-3), 30cm wide by 58cm high, so their mass is 3.4g.
The mid/treble panel is made of 6um thick Mylar/Melinex (polyethylteraphalate, density 1.4g.cm-3), 15cm wide by 58cm high, so the mass is 0.73g.
So the mass of the bass panels is heavier than I thought. They are consideably smaller in size than that of your Apogees.
It also shows that Wikipedia is not infallible!
walpurgis
20-10-2017, 22:17
I didn't know the bass panels were not Melinex.
(either that, or I'd forgotten :))
Just a lot more life to it. Not a subtle difference. Sounds a lot like the Krell used to sound. Not quite, the Krell had a little bit more to it, but very close. All I've done is swap power amps. So has to be the power amp?
Cool - glad that the amp swap over has proved fruitful. I thought that might be an issue, and your "a lot more life to it" comment says it all! :)
However, now comes the hard bit... Why has that happened? Is it because the Krell needs re-capped, or is it because the high damping factor of the amp isn't a good match with your speakers (and your other amp is better in that respect) - or indeed a bit of both?
My view is if you like the Krell and think that it sounded better when you first got it, with the same speakers and passive preamp, then it's probably ripe for a re-cap, as what else could explain such a sudden and very obvious deterioration in sound?
If you're going to get it re-capped (certainly have your EE measure the old ones first), I wouldn't go too 'fooey' on the replacements. If you want to stick with electrolytic ones (which I suspect is what's in there already), then F&T do a comprehensive range of types and values, at sensible prices, sold through HFC:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/fandt_capacitors.html
They're German made and very good. I use them (by-passed by Clarity Cap MRs) in the PSU section of the Copper amp, and they sound fab!
Failing that, it you want to try some polypropylene ones, which arguably should be better, then as a 'dip your toe in the water' option, I'd recommend Clarity Cap ESA: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_esa.html
However, aside from re-capping the Krell, I think we should eliminate any issue of the low input sensitivity of the Krell not being the best match for a passive preamp, so we need to try an active preamp with the Krell, which can either be my Croft or Alan's KIN.
Then we can carry out comparisons such as your passive preamp with the Krell vs. Croft (or KIN) with the Krell, and your passive preamp and spare power amp together vs. Croft (or KIN) with your spare power amp, etc, just to see exactly what's going on in terms of all relevant considerations!
Should be interesting :cool:
Marco
I didn't know the bass panels were not Melinex.
(either that, or I'd forgotten :))
The bass panels are made of Sarin, which is the trade name for polyvinyldinechloride (PVDC). The mid/treble panels are made of polyethylteraphalate (PET). 'Melinex' is ICI's trade name for PET, whereas 'Mylar' is DuPont's trade name for the same.
I decided to calculate the masses for the diaphragms of the Quad 57 ESL.
The bass panels are made of 12um thick SARAN (polyvinyledine chloride, density 1.63g.cm-3), 30cm wide by 58cm high, so their mass is 3.4g.
The mid/treble panel is made of 6um thick Mylar/Melinex (polyethylteraphalate, density 1.4g.cm-3), 15cm wide by 58cm high, so the mass is 0.73g.
So the mass of the bass panels is heavier than I thought. They are consideably smaller in size than that of your Apogees.
It also shows that Wikipedia is not infallible!
Good work. Actually when I said a factor of ten or more lighter, after I posted it I thought it was a bit unreasonably generous. You've proved that.
walpurgis
21-10-2017, 09:23
Sarin?
Yes. Named after our local 'Superstore'! :D
http://i64.tinypic.com/2z3ukc0.png
I bet that building has won some architectural awards. Jesus, what a mess! Was the planning officer on drugs the day he agreed to that?
walpurgis
21-10-2017, 09:41
It was a half decent little pub twenty years ago, now gone the way of many in the area.
So how are things sounding now, Martin? Have you still got the back-up amp in, or have you reverted to the Krell? :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
21-10-2017, 19:21
Back in the day there weren't a lot of passive's kicking around, so an active pre would be a more intended match than a passive. I have heard a fair number of folks comment that a KSA50 and Audio Research SP9 was a great match. These were just slightly before my time so I never heard that pairing or similar but some of what you are describing sounds like a miss match with the pre. My own experience based bias would be to be less inclined towards passives than actives.
Only way to know will be to try stuff and see whats what.
So how are things sounding now, Martin? Have you still got the back-up amp in, or have you reverted to the Krell? :)
Marco.
Just got in about ten minutes ago, not done any listening today. Might have a session tomorrow afternoon. Think I'll put the Sony CD player back in, see how that goes.
Ah, out boozing again! Quite right :eyebrows:
So, Sony back in and retain the same amplification? Sounds like a plan :cool:
Marco.
Back in the day there weren't a lot of passive's kicking around, so an active pre would be a more intended match than a passive. I have heard a fair number of folks comment that a KSA50 and Audio Research SP9 was a great match. These were just slightly before my time so I never heard that pairing or similar but some of what you are describing sounds like a miss match with the pre. My own experience based bias would be to be less inclined towards passives than actives.
Only way to know will be to try stuff and see whats what.
Not challenging what you're saying here, but Macca's Krell is a mid 90's 50 'S' and not the fan cooled original which I remember having a different set of virtues. The 50 S here, had a lean and precise sound to me, rather than the slightly diffuse original KSA50 which has a different circuit I think. No original Krell owner would ever think of using a passive pre with one as they'd have automatically bought an active pre, usually a KRC2 at the time, or an ARC model, the latter warming things up while retaining some clarity despite the sonic processing most of them did (the SP9 was actually more neutral as the circuit was simpler - really nice valve preamp I remember with an excellent 3-D presentation which led me to the unrelated FET based SP14 I had for a couple of years until replacing it with a Croft - cough). I had to use what I had here and found the passive fine with the digital sources I usually use - and of course I have a phono stage with a similarly high output and never played the tuner loudly (at the time, an old but serviced Quad FM3).
The hifi's fine. You're just using the wrong drugs, Martin :D
Or I'm using the right drugs but need to up my dosage?
When you dropped that guitar off to me you had a listen to my system, it was sounding pretty good at that point, I thought. Second time you came with the Technics, not so good.
Original KSA50 with passive sterile, flat, really a bit unpleasant sounding. With ARC LS26, expansive, huge soundstage, pleasant sound. In fact soundstage a bit too huge. The transform when swapping between to the so immense it almost beggared belief.
You just need a valve pre with the right amount of "fruit" to make one work.
The Croft is quite orangey, with notes of pomegranate. Will that do?
Marco.
The Croft is quite orangey, with notes of pomegranate. Will that do?
Marco.What you mean no lemon zest and Kiwi? No peaches and cream? Not even a vague hint of banana?
No, no, no!:)
When you dropped that guitar off to me you had a listen to my system, it was sounding pretty good at that point, I thought. Second time you came with the Technics, not so good.
Agreed! Certainly the first time was more involving ... second time, it was easy to ignore the music and talk over it. I thought it was just the music choice, or possibly the Technics cd player, if we plumbed it in ... can't remember. Anyway, can't see how the pre can be the culprit, as it was working fine first time ... the whole system sounding lively and nicely balanced. I remember thinking it'd be difficult to better for the (very reasonable amount of) money you paid for the system.
Have you tried turning the volume up a quarter turn? I find that usually sorts things out :lol:
Agreed! Certainly the first time was more involving ... second time, it was easy to ignore the music and talk over it. I thought it was just the music choice, or possibly the Technics cd player, if we plumbed it in ... can't remember. Anyway, can't see how the pre can be the culprit, as it was working fine first time ... the whole system sounding lively and nicely balanced. I remember thinking it'd be difficult to better for the (very reasonable amount of) money you paid for the system.
Have you tried turning the volume up a quarter turn? I find that usually sorts things out :lol:
Second time was with the Technics, also with a different speaker cable. But the first time was, aside from speaker cable, identical to what I am now unhappy with. And I've tied putting the other speaker cables back in and no change. Swapping power amps brings it back to how it was. So this would seem to indicate that the only possible cause is a degradation in the performance of the Krell.
The only other explanation is that it is all in my mind, and the Krell was not up to much even when I first got it. You say no, it sounded pretty good first time; that's what I recall too. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains...
have you tried an active yet
No, because that means dismantling the TV system. Going to wait and see what the deal is with Marco's pre-amp. I've heard that slotted into a number of systems and it always sounds superb, so if that doesn't cut it with the Krell then I know for certain.
Best speaker cables for Krell at silly but not monstrous prices used to be VDH The Wind laid side by side (I checked, although lightly twisting for neatness needn't hurt). We also used capacitive Kimber 8TC once but that made the sound go 'tuneless HiFi' and ruined the lively lean tones of the KVA 250's we had on dem. I've no idea what it was, but we had some very thick copper stranded cables (each conductor was at least half an inch thick in a black jacket with spades at each end) and this stuff was amazing with the big amps we had. More recently, Transparent cables with their expensive magic boxes on were the dogs danglies for this kind of gear. needless to say, I once tried Chord odyssey with an FPB300 and it killed it, all splattery and ott in presentation. Once this was heard, it was there all the time with everything else, just not as obvious - the The Wind was so obviously clearer and better balanced it was silly and I'm sure I could tell blindfold even now.
I know some ARC preamps are supposed to be a good symbiotic match, but to me it's still using one colouration to enhance ot counterbalance another. The 50S isn't really in need of this kind of processing in my opinion, but maybe one of the 'simpler' ARC preamps would work really well.
Best speaker cables for Krell at silly but not monstrous prices used to be VDH The Wind laid side by side (I checked, although lightly twisting for neatness needn't hurt).
Got some of that... Ya, man :smoking:
Marco.
I know some ARC preamps are supposed to be a good symbiotic match, but to me it's still using one colouration to enhance ot counterbalance another. The 50S isn't really in need of this kind of processing in my opinion, but maybe one of the 'simpler' ARC preamps would work really well.
I don't think it is a question of "but to me", I think it is an absolute fact.
My earlier comments do refer to KSA50 and not the amp Macca has. I'm not really qualified to comment on Macca's S variant.
I heard and FPB300 with Krell DAC and pre from the same era through Ushers and Apogees on the same day and I was surprised how good it was TBH. Especially after the KSA50 experience.
anthonyTD
24-10-2017, 11:05
High voltage, low value/current capacitor types, such as in valve amps, tend to survive better than low voltage, high current types, I often re-form electrolytics in old equipment, when a cap has been left idle for a time, its internal resistance can drop drastically, which is the main reason old equipment like radios, Amps etc fail when someone decides to "plug it in to see if it works" :doh: you have to bring up the HT voltage very gradually, while monitoring the current the caps are drawing, until they get to a point where they have the maximum rated voltage on them' but draw next to no current, this indicates that the cap has reformed itself, and the leakage is back to normal, sometimes, they will not reform, and will keep drawing lots of current, thats when you have no choice but to discard them.
Paper in oil caps for power supplies [not signal] tend to survive better, especialy the ones found in old military equipment, However; they are filled with toxic oil, and should never be broken, or deliberately cut open.
Polypropylene caps for signal coupling are among the best caps you can buy today, as far as DC leakage is concerned.
High voltage, low value/current capacitor types, such as in valve amps, tend to survive better than low voltage, high current types, I often re-form electrolytics in old equipment, when a cap has been left idle for a time, its internal resistance can drop drastically...
Useful info, Anthony. In terms of the bit in bold, that's just as I suspected, which is why I mentioned to Martin to get the Krell re-capped, even if it had had little use :)
Marco.
I'll find someone to get the Krell fully re-capped and overhauled and then we will see what's what.
Bigman80
24-10-2017, 13:29
I'll find someone to get the Krell fully re-capped and overhauled and then we will see what's what.Speak to Firebottle. He loves a good project. Localish too.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
If Alan is interested in doing it I'd be happy to trust it to him.
If you give it too Alan it will come back with some of those little glass bottles inside!:)
Bigman80
24-10-2017, 14:04
If you give it too Alan it will come back with some of those little glass bottles inside!:)[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
To be fair, he's as good with solid state gear. Fixed my Sony 730es amp with ease.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
walpurgis
24-10-2017, 14:10
If Alan is interested in doing it I'd be happy to trust it to him.
PM him for his phone number and have a chat with him. He's a nice bloke.
If you give it too Alan it will come back with some of those little glass bottles inside!:)
:lol:
PM him for his phone number and have a chat with him. He's a nice bloke.
I know, Alan and I are not strangers.
Firebottle
24-10-2017, 16:51
I'm game Martin :)
Cool. We'll arrange something when it is convenient for you then?
I'm game Martin :)
I know, but he's talking about fixing his amp! ;)
Marco.
Hey Macca, stop messing and get those JBLs bought :eyebrows:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54556-FS-JBL-Everest-DD67000-speakers
The pics make them look quite small - smaller than my Lockwoods... Probably just an optical illusion!
Marco.
The pics make them look quite small - smaller than my Lockwoods... Probably just an optical illusion!
Marco.
Specs here, 2 x 15" bass drivers...yeah baby, yeah :D
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/productdetail/everest-dd67000.html
Yeah, with two 15s they've got to be wider, but they seem quite short. I'll need to take some measurements... Crazy price, though. High-end hi-fi really has gone bonkers!
Marco.
Small they ain't. Despite that they look pretty cool to my eyes. Crazy price? Not in comparison to many high end speakers that they would trounce and certainly not at the price I'm asking, relatively speaking.
The price you're asking Ian, is fair, based on what they retail for.
And as you've pointed out, there are many much more expensive speakers in today's high-end market, but that doesn't stop the pricing being bonkers, IMO. That said, I'd rather have your JBLs than just about any other currently produced high-end speaker I can think of, as for me they tick the right boxes.
Anyway, good luck with the sale! :cool:
Marco.
Firebottle
25-10-2017, 07:28
I know, but he's talking about fixing his amp! ;)
Marco.
:eyebrows:
Thanks Marco. I understand what you mean about pricing, but I have a much bigger problem with cables and the like being sold for many £k. At least with the JBLs you can see that they will have cost a significant amount to put together - by way of an indication, each speaker weighs 170kgs.
Yes, I totally agree with that point. The JBLs are a true marvel of engineering, whilst mentalist priced cables are, well....
170kgs, eh? That's crazy, and more than double the weight of my Lockwoods combined!! :eek:
Marco.
Yes, I totally agree with that point. The JBLs are a true marvel of engineering, whilst mentalist priced cables are, well....
170kgs, eh? That's crazy, and more than double the weight of my Lockwoods combined!! :eek:
Marco.
Marco, would your Lockwoods not be a similar weight to these later ones which weigh 80kg each before plinth, castors and handles:
http://www.lockwoodaudio.co.uk/images/lockwood4_lrg.jpg
Yes, and what's 80 + 80? I think you'll find that it's less than 170... ;)
There's no 'plinth' with mine, as such. It's all integrated into the cabinets. TBH, when you lift the speakers, most of the weight comes from the HUMUNGOUS magnets on the 15" drive units! :eek:
Marco.
I am curious about the exact weight of your Lockwoods as I'm mulling over Townshend Bars for mine.
I took "double the weight of my Lockwoods combined" to be 320kg :)
Lol, no. Each speaker combined (at 80kg), not a pair :)
In actuality, they may even be slightly less than that. The range, however, is definitely between 70-80kg each. The cabinets are *extremely* inert, though not super-heavy for their size.
Cabinet design operated on slightly different principles in those days, but which when done well, as in the case of the LMs, was very effective as a whole.
Marco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fOkHbj8iYg
Shot by me. I really didn't like them. Much, much better speakers around. And I wanted to like them. Pretty brash sounding things at least with the ML electronics.
Some people will like them, of course, but I have no idea why.
Sounds probably like a mismatch for me, and being played far too loud... High-efficiency horn-loaded speakers like that need [top-notch] TOOBS! ;)
Marco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fOkHbj8iYg
Shot by me. I really didn't like them. Much, much better speakers around. And I wanted to like them. Pretty brash sounding things at least with the ML electronics.
Some people will like them, of course, but I have no idea why.
Odd that since the 4365 sounded excellent with ML amplification.
Anyway all moot s far as I'm concerned since I'd have to re-mortgage the house to buy Ian's Everests and that ain't going to happen. Taken me 20 years to pay the bastard off.
I'm not a fan of the genre but the Big Phat Band track being played comes from an excellent album, the sonics of which are fantastic.
Not apparent in the JBL room.
I went in there a multitude of times. It was never good.
southall-1998
28-10-2017, 18:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fOkHbj8iYg
Shot by me. I really didn't like them. Much, much better speakers around. And I wanted to like them. Pretty brash sounding things at least with the ML electronics.
Some people will like them, of course, but I have no idea why.
Sounds like a loud PA system.
S.
Sounds like a loud PA system.
S.
You ever hear a quiet PA system?
walpurgis
29-10-2017, 09:22
You ever hear a quiet PA system?
A headphone one? :)
Any updates on the Krell Martin?
Sounds like a loud PA system.
S.
Most demonstrations at audio shows sound like PA systems IMO.
Any updates on the Krell Martin?
Nope, but I will be trying it with an active pre over the weekend since I have to dismantle the other system anyway.
Which one is that, mate? :)
I was meant to be bringing my Croft down, but you (and/or Olly) haven't come back yet with a proposed date.
Marco.
just the XTZ.
Will have to be in the New Year now for that get together. No more holidays left. :(
Ah, no worries. I'm pretty stacked myself, and Snapper will be down soon for Crimbo :)
Marco.
walpurgis
01-12-2017, 20:00
It's creeping up on us.
It can creep right on past as far as I'm concerned! :D
Lol - what are you like... Well, I'm really looking forward to it! :ner:
Marco.
You don't have to stay in an hotel and eat your Xmas dinner in a restaurant though.
Lol - that sounds rather like fun, actually!
[although it'd depend on the hotel and restaurant].
Marco.
Lol - that sounds rather like fun, actually!
.
No, it's a total ball ache.
The restaurant is is an unknown quantity but I'm not getting my hopes up. Usually my sister-in -law cooks and it is top notch. I mean really outstanding. But she wants to go out this year. What can you do?
Look forward to it? It might be great! :cool:
Snapper and I will think about you when we're tucking into our roast goose ;)
Marco.
The previous owner sent me some pictures of the Krell KSA50s internals, so here they are:
https://i.imgur.com/KLOfcAF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wANtSCM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8WKJyrr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DQN2v1R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xLwwPbj.jpg
Firebottle
12-07-2018, 10:44
I like the busbars onto the speaker terminals. No wonder it can drive 1 ohm :eek:
Bigman80
12-07-2018, 11:05
This amp spurred my latest purchase, Geoff's Monarchy class A thing
jandl100
12-07-2018, 12:24
Just out of comparative interest, here are the innards of my old Mk1 Krell KSA50.
https://i.imgur.com/pRMEPim.jpg
Huge tranny and caps on that macca
They don't like it up em capt
Jerrys is no slouch either
Marantz CD54
Arrived the other day but only just got it out of the box. Here's a stock photo until I can get my telephone to talk to my computer:
https://i.imgur.com/WvnG1fP.jpg
And some blurb from the internet:
The first Compact Disc players arrived in 1982 and reached British buyers a year later. This generation has since become largely forgotten, which is a shame because – ironically – many sound far more ‘analogue’ than much of today’s high end esoterica. The Marantz CD-54 is a case in point. Made in 1984, it’s a late first generation design using Philips’ exquisite CDM-1 Pro metal diecast transport mechanism and the same company’s Palaeolithic 14-bit, 4 times oversampling DAC/filter package. Despite its midi size, the thing weighs a ton – evidence that the consumer electronics giants built their very first generation players to last. As they cost the format’s early adopters a packet, it was only right that they weren’t plastic boxes full of air.
Not given it a try yet, too knackered from work and it took me an hour and a half to get home tonight. Will give it a go tomorrow and report back
Not sure even I would go back that far now ;) The Meridian MCD-Pro was the first CD player I felt I could live with, the surprisingly good B&O CD-X, Mission DAD 7000R and Philips CD104 mk1 were the paths I took to get there back then (I didn't know the Marantz you've acquired Macca). Would be very interesting to reading your findings on it...
Marantz CD54
Arrived the other day but only just got it out of the box. Here's a stock photo until I can get my telephone to talk to my computer:
https://i.imgur.com/WvnG1fP.jpg
And some blurb from the internet:
The first Compact Disc players arrived in 1982 and reached British buyers a year later. This generation has since become largely forgotten, which is a shame because – ironically – many sound far more ‘analogue’ than much of today’s high end esoterica. The Marantz CD-54 is a case in point. Made in 1984, it’s a late first generation design using Philips’ exquisite CDM-1 Pro metal diecast transport mechanism and the same company’s Palaeolithic 14-bit, 4 times oversampling DAC/filter package. Despite its midi size, the thing weighs a ton – evidence that the consumer electronics giants built their very first generation players to last. As they cost the format’s early adopters a packet, it was only right that they weren’t plastic boxes full of air.
Not given it a try yet, too knackered from work and it took me an hour and a half to get home tonight. Will give it a go tomorrow and report backI had one of those really early 14 bit Philips CD thingies for a bit. Sounded surprisingly better than a cheap 16 bit Technics CDP I also had. Which genuinely sounded shit, when it really boils down to it. So not hard to beat.
I think it should sound pretty decent, all things considered.
en (I didn't know the Marantz you've acquired Macca).
Neither do I but it wasn't expensive and I've got that many cd players I figured one more wouldn't hurt.
These early-ish 14 bit models had BASS which was lacking in the first '16 bit' plastic cased models. Took a model or two to refine it I remember...
I had one of those really early 14 bit Philips CD thingies for a bit. Sounded surprisingly better than a cheap 16 bit Technics CDP I also had. Which genuinely sounded shit, when it really boils down to it. So not hard to beat.
I think it should sound pretty decent, all things considered.
Aye well, 14 bit vs 16 bit it's hardly a game changer. I think these were about £600 new in 1984 so that's a couple of grand in today's money.
Marantz CD54
Arrived the other day but only just got it out of the box. Here's a stock photo until I can get my telephone to talk to my computer:
https://i.imgur.com/WvnG1fP.jpg
And some blurb from the internet:
The first Compact Disc players arrived in 1982 and reached British buyers a year later. This generation has since become largely forgotten, which is a shame because – ironically – many sound far more ‘analogue’ than much of today’s high end esoterica. The Marantz CD-54 is a case in point. Made in 1984, it’s a late first generation design using Philips’ exquisite CDM-1 Pro metal diecast transport mechanism and the same company’s Palaeolithic 14-bit, 4 times oversampling DAC/filter package. Despite its midi size, the thing weighs a ton – evidence that the consumer electronics giants built their very first generation players to last. As they cost the format’s early adopters a packet, it was only right that they weren’t plastic boxes full of air.
Not given it a try yet, too knackered from work and it took me an hour and a half to get home tonight. Will give it a go tomorrow and report back
Very nice, Martin. A proper CDP, from the heydays of the format, designed to reproduce music with 'balls'!;)
I hope it's performing as closely as possible to its original spec, and that everything is working as it should. Enjoy, and I look forward to reading about your impressions:cool:
Marco.
I want to see if it is true that the first cd players were thin, harsh, hard and 'unmusical' like so many people say. First cd player I got was in 1995, a current model Sony (CDP791E) so I've never tried anything that goes this far back.
I want to see if it is true that the first cd players were thin, harsh, hard and 'unmusical' like so many people say.
Cool, but I think you'll find the opposite...
I'd expect it to sound smooth ['analogue-like'], but bold and forthright with it, and like Dave says, have good bass. Some of Sony's early models tended to sound as you describe (a little sterile), but not the Marantz.
Let's also not forget that CDPs back then were being compared with T/Ts, such as the LP12, which at that time would've made almost anything sound thin or harsh!;)
Marco.
Very true. My theory is it was the feted but ultimately not very good flat-earth amps and speakers that were the issue. As you say, good match for the early LP12 or soggy sounding compact cassette, not so good when fed with 'pure, perfect sound forever'. We shall see. :eyebrows:
Get it fired up and listened to then, daftee!:D
Marco.
Later on. Too early for music yet.
Right finally got this son of a bitch thing going.
First of all needed to get one of those dumb 2 prong leads, had to rob one off the AV system.
Next up it powers up, draw trundles out, cd in. Won't read. Tried it a few times decided to give up. Switched it off and pulled it forward to disconnect it. Then realised I had left the cd in so switched on again to get it out and what do you know it reads the disc. So press play, music starts, left channel only. Bollocks. Switch off again, fed up now. Then notice when I pulled it forward right channel interconnect had come out. So put that back in, power up again. Reads the disc but now won't play. Bollocks. Cocked about with it, nothing doing. About to give up again and all of a sudden music starts playing, both channels this time!
Think I might need to get my double E to look at it. I've had players muck about like this before after being shipped so maybe it will settle down with some warm up, get the moisture out of it. We'll see.
Anyway listening now and this is a really good player. I thought I'd play something appropriate to the era so put on Dire Staits 'Brothers In Arms', the record that supposedly kick-started cd player sales worldwide. As expected nothing harsh, screechy or hard about it. Lovely instrumental tone, deep soundstage, guitar sounds very 'guitary'.
Female backing singer on 'So Far Away' comes across lovely. Delicate cymbal work at the start of 'Your latest trick' is resolved very well, superbly realistic. A more relaxed listen than my Sony X505ES but it is drawing me in with its beguiling nature. It's certainly better than any of my slew of budget and mid-price players that range from 10-20 years after it. I'll have to try a wider range of albums to see how coloured it is, but I suspect not much, certainly not as much as some other Marantz players.
Cool. If it continues to work.
Cool. If it continues to work.
Always the gamble with these old players, but it was only pocket money and my tame EE can sort it if necessary. If he can fix B&O (and he can) he can fix anything.
Now seems to be working flawlessly, played another couple of albums with zero issues. It's not as good as the Technics SLP1200 but then nothing I have ever heard is as good as that, any format, don't care. But it is good.
Bigman80
29-09-2018, 21:14
Good news!!
Now seems to be working flawlessly, played another couple of albums with zero issues. It's not as good as the Technics SLP1200 but then nothing I have ever heard is as good as that, any format, don't care. But it is good.
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Like an old car that's been standing for a while, a bastard to get going again but once you do, you're off.
Or maybe it realised I was trying to play Brothers In Arms and thought 'Oh no not this again!'
Bigman80
29-09-2018, 21:31
Like an old car that's been standing for a while, a bastard to get going again but once you do, you're off.
Or maybe it realised I was trying to play Brothers In Arms and thought 'Oh no not this again!'[emoji1787] needs a bit of System of a down to blow the cobwebs off.
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Shove it in Marco's boot for a week...:D
Lol - is suspect that would defo shake it fully into life!:D
Martin, pop the lid open and lube all moving parts, particularly the sliders on the CD drawer mech, and work it in well. That usually helps. Vaseline is pretty good, some of which I'm sure you'll have lying around:eyebrows:
Also, using a cotton-wool bud, gently give the laser lens a good clean with some Isopropyl alcohol (or the stuff you use to clean your records).
However, it's sounding pretty much as I expected it to. Nice one:cool:
Marco.
a graphite pencil if you have one is good for slider bars ...
Mech is the CDM 1 Pro so it isn't easy to get into. However after that first CD it's worked perfectly.
Now listen up people next time you see someone on a forum claiming that early CD players were hard and harsh or that 'Digital has come on leaps and bounds' please have a good laugh at them for me because this thing sounds sweet as a nut. Thanks.
Lawrence001
30-09-2018, 11:22
Glad it arrived safely and its working fine after a little hiccup. Yes I think I found it won't read a disc that's already in on switch on. Your findings on the sound match mine, magic mid range was one quality I noticed. If I wasn't going file based I would have kept it as a back up. I think the earlier players were held back by the captive lead but you can use what you want with this :)
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Glad it arrived safely and its working fine after a little hiccup. Yes I think I found it won't read a disc that's already in on switch on. Your findings on the sound match mine, magic mid range was one quality I noticed. If I wasn't going file based I would have kept it as a back up. I think the earlier players were held back by the captive lead but you can use what you want with this :)
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I think they were held back by the UK flat earth amps and speakers of the day myself. I don't think mains cables have any affect on performance. But an interesting theory.
hornucopia
30-09-2018, 12:11
Bit late, but here's my -much modded - PS1 CD player.
Can't do comparison.....Tom? Did it sound reasonable, when you visited?
Lawrence001
30-09-2018, 12:15
I think they were held back by the UK flat earth amps and speakers of the day myself. I don't think mains cables have any affect on performance. But an interesting theory.Ah I meant RCA lead the CD104 etc was captive.
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Ah I meant RCA lead the CD104 etc was captive.
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Oh right I didn't realise that. Can't see just an interconnect being the difference between harsh and sweet though.
Bit late, but here's my -much modded - PS1 CD player.
Can't do comparison.....Tom? Did it sound reasonable, when you visited?
That looks well funky.
dantheman91
04-10-2018, 14:53
Does anyone recommend a Marantz CD583?
Sorry if crap threading Mart but interested to know......
Lawrence001
04-10-2018, 16:19
Basic TDA1541 player, ok for £50.
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Oh right I didn't realise that. Can't see just an interconnect being the difference between harsh and sweet though.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who might think otherwise. :D
Lawrence001
04-10-2018, 16:28
Cable debate!!
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dantheman91
04-10-2018, 16:34
Basic TDA1541 player, ok for £50.
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Best grab it for £9 then...:)
Bigman80
04-10-2018, 16:40
I'm sure there are a lot of people who might think otherwise. :DRight here!!
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Having a major clear-up and reorg, managed to get a fair pile of spare gear together and shelved up. (Crappy pic off of the laptop camera, but you get the general idea)
https://i.imgur.com/bhwv56J.jpg
New store opening soon, Macca Sounds:D
Having a major clear-up and reorg, managed to get a fair pile of spare gear together and shelved]
Hope those shelves are well fixed to the wall [emoji15]
My collection’s not quite so extensive but I did get rid of all my spare kit once (there are other units boxed up in a cupboard)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190418/9f8e1a29d5ade7131bc93dd700246769.jpg
Piling up nicely there Roy. What's in the photo is about half of mine. Just not enough shelves for all of it.
Lawrence001
18-04-2019, 14:56
Doh
Lawrence001
18-04-2019, 14:57
Having a major clear-up and reorg, managed to get a fair pile of spare gear together and shelved up. (Crappy pic off of the laptop camera, but you get the general idea)
https://i.imgur.com/bhwv56J.jpgWhat's that to the right of the Pioneer DVD player? Perspex front with nice looking knob. Reckon it would look good in my rack [emoji3]
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I had a few other units that sort of half worked (if you get my gist) but weren't worth getting mended, just gave them to the recycler (they've moved on from 'rag & bones').
What's that to the right of the Pioneer DVD player? Perspex front with nice looking knob. Reckon it would look good in my rack [emoji3]
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It's an LDR pre-amp.
In the last 18 months I've sold or given away about the same amount as what is on those shelves so I have cut the collection down quite a bit from its height.
There's still a couple of tasty pieces on there, a Marantz CD67SE, Technics SLP770 and a 4 track Tascam digital portastudio. And a Sony DAT deck, forget which model. There's also my spare Technics SL1200 just out of shot.
Firebottle
18-04-2019, 16:42
I like the way you use the kit to support the centre of the shelf above, stops them bowing :eyebrows:
jandl100
18-04-2019, 17:40
What's happening with the love of your life the Krell?
Needs fixing. :( I'm looking to buy another one if anyone is selling.
jandl100
18-04-2019, 17:50
Noooooo. :(
Really sorry to hear that.
Is it fixable?
It still has to go to the vet but I'm told it is more than likely a dry joint. There's nothing in it that can't be replaced anyway.
But I'm going to try and get another as a spare anyway, not necessarily the same exact model. I can't take the drop in sound quality going back to a normal amp!
dantheman91
18-04-2019, 21:20
little hoard is nice my Pile of gear is bigger...
:eek:
walpurgis
18-04-2019, 21:34
little hoard is nice my Pile of gear is bigger...
:eek:
I dread to think...... :lol:
dantheman91
18-04-2019, 21:44
I dread to think...... :lol:
Few goodies well i think they are but what do i know any thoughts on Marantz 2225 i can buy one local for £100?
Running my Audio Notes Today / Tisbury Pre / Linn LK85 - Nice indeed...
Pepperamip
19-04-2019, 05:49
Isn't that one of their receivers with the big black frequency window on the front and enough knobs to launch a rocket. I thought they sold for treble that amount. Nice warm sound.
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jandl100
19-04-2019, 06:15
any thoughts on Marantz 2225 i can buy one local for £100?
Wow - snap that up!
Worth it just for the looks!
And yes, worth a lot more if it is in working condition with, as Paul says, a yummy warm and inviting sound (if it's anything like my old 4230).
:drool: :stalks:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/images/2008/07/08/marantz2225.jpg
Lawrence001
19-04-2019, 08:08
Few goodies well i think they are but what do i know any thoughts on Marantz 2225 i can buy one local for £100?
Running my Audio Notes Today / Tisbury Pre / Linn LK85 - Nice indeed...You still liking the Tisbury then Dan? It's a great little device isn't it and mixes well with some much higher end kit.
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little hoard is nice my Pile of gear is bigger...
:eek:
Sadly what you see in the photo is only about half of my pile. But I have sold a lot of kit over the past year or so - before that it would only have constituted about a third.
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