View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up 2: Lash Harder
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A cheap Chinese preamp isn't the goal - it'll just make the point.
ARC preamps were very popular in front of Krells for many, many years for good reason. That's the point.
I'm trying to get you to dump the passive... with good reason.
I have active pre-amps here I could put in. But I don't understand what the benefit could be. The Krell is not incompatible with a passive.
Feel free to ignore what I say. It is just that from personal experience I find:
1) Active SS pre to SS power amps can work well.
2) Passive pre to valve power amps can work well.
3) Valve pre to SS power amps can work well - generally better than 1) I have found.
4) Passive pre to SS power not likely to be great.
5) Valve pre to valve power can work well.
Plenty of people using 4) I am sure. But in general I don't find it a good option. And I am actually using 4) in my 2nd system at the moment, albeit with a Air Tight passive i.e. a good one. 3) would be better but it is a 2nd system and it works well enough.
I've done all the combinations you are listing and I favour option 4.
1 is 'unmusical' but has the wallop
2 Yes, has a magic of its own but doesn't have the wallop, unless you spend shitloads on the power amp
3 Is coloured unless you spend a shitload on the pre-amp - although will confess I have always fancied a go of an ARC pre amp.
But I appreciate your input ;)
But I appreciate your input ;)
There are no rules and WTF do I know I am not you. Also, my opinions have changed over time anyway to arrive at the general rule of thumb above. It's a massive generalisation, though, and what works in one situ doesn't necessarily in another. Tis all madness:)
southall-1998
28-11-2016, 22:50
Justin,
Turn down the volume!!!!!!!!!!
:D
S.
Okay, it appears I was a bit over cautious in my previous post. I guess the Krell just doesn't like Chord Odessey speaker cable, this is a big improvement.
Two albums I have had trouble getting to sound right for a couple of years, ZZ Top's First Album (too thin and hard) and Simply Red's Stars (hard and overly compressed - and stop sniggering at the back that boy) sounded spot on.
The emphasis on the leading edge is gone but the sound is much more natural and realistic as a result. I'm quite taken aback. And bear in mind I am still using jumpers to the mid and tops that are nothing more than nondescript (although virgin) lengths of 79 strand.
speaker cable to the rescue was it. :) Surprising how that works but it does.
I'll need a longer listen but it does seem that way.
You were using ODYSSEY??????? Oh fuck, I had no idea :eek:
Odyssey sounds great with lower caste amps and softer toned speakers - we sold many km of the stuff with Spendor 'S' series speakers and as a Naim A5 upgrade* but with a krell - ugh!!! and in our day it was the FPB and KAV400 era, the earlier KAV's and KSA's were far too lean and stripped out with Rumour and Odyssey.
*Purely my experiences, but odyssey and similar silver-plated copper instrument wires have to my ears a scrappy hashy hf. Into over damped restrained speakers it works very well and was 'better' than Naim A5 and with a similar kind of 'HiFi' presentation I remember, but into a 'decent' wideband system the sound was clearly messed up and kind of out of focus from bass to treble. The 'KJ' recommendation at the time for Krell-standard speaker cables was VDH 'The Wind' and for whatever reason, it really did work well with Krell amps. I used my NVA LS5 with great results too...
As for the preamp, it's difficult and personal. A high quality passive volume control CAN'T take more away or add any more than an active design unless the power amp NEEDS an active buffer stage to drive it, as there's only one high quality resistor in the line plus (in macca's case) a shunted resistor to ground to govern the volume attenuation. This particular Krell needs 1.3V for full output. CD players and many phono stages can meet or beat this need, so if the interconnects are short, then why not a precision attenuator for volume settings?
OK - my vibe again, so one of you at least in another thread thinks I'm deaf and deluded if I think a passive is better than a good line buffer. I'll take that, but the whole point about ARC preamps was that their (mostly) designed-in warmth of tone (a deliberate colouration/processing so not really 'high fidelity' in the true sense) kind of neutralised any stridency on the Krell power amps used with them. THIS generation of Krell was a departure, sounding less hard and tonally flat than the previous range, which was hot running and pretty horrible PA style of presentation if memory serves - maybe it was worn out or over-stressed caps, but they really weren't very nice despite the cachet. The variable 'plateau-bias' design made these amps usable in the real world and to me sounded rather better too. I personally don't think this amp NEEDS to be hobbled with a coloured sounding preamp from the US.
This Krell seems to be a fully balanced design from input to output and doesn't have balanced-to-single ended chips or transformer on the input. Use with single ended phono plugs entails tying one leg of the balanced input to ground. If macca was to try an active preamp, then I'd suggest a properly balanced one such as a vintage Levinson or a well cared for top line Krell perhaps - I was recommended a KRC2 over the 3 by a Krell expert of many years, but haven't tried them and I'm sure there are many others, as well as others, but they ought to be proper balanced designs rather than hobbled single ended circuits with an extra balanced buffer tacked on the back.
Sorry for the long post above.
The big Focal's are fussy, positioning is key as I have never heard a speaker change so much with a couple of inches of movement. The best I have heard my 936's sound was on the end of a couple 845 valve amps with a passive pre (music first), otherwise Musical fidelity stuff works well too. Don't use silver plated cables anywhere near them as they will object, but it sounds like you have found this out already.
New tweeters are a little expensive but can be picked up for a couple of hundred for a pair (I have a spare pair just in case).
OK - my vibe again, so one of you at least in another thread thinks I'm deaf and deluded if I think a passive is better than a good line buffer. I'll take that, but the whole point about ARC preamps was that their (mostly) designed-in warmth of tone (a deliberate colouration/processing so not really 'high fidelity' in the true sense) kind of neutralised any stridency on the Krell power amps used with them. THIS generation of Krell was a departure, sounding less hard and tonally flat than the previous range, which was hot running and pretty horrible PA style of presentation if memory serves - maybe it was worn out or over-stressed caps, but they really weren't very nice despite the cachet. The variable 'plateau-bias' design made these amps usable in the real world and to me sounded rather better too. I personally don't think this amp NEEDS to be hobbled with a coloured sounding preamp from the US.
My experience with the earlier KSA50 (not the 50S Martin has) is that it was dire WITHOUT a coloured sounding ARC LS26 from the US!!!
And I do think the LS26 was coloured in a way the KSA50 totally needed. That particular ARC threw huge 3D soundstage and some very nice tonality in the mids. I don't think all ARC preamps are coloured to that extent, BTW.
However, a KSA300 with an Krell pre and DAC I heard later sounded very good, really, on both Apogees and some Usher Dancer variant. I was surprised.
Jerry tried the LS26 on his MBLs and hated it. I don't think it'd work well in that situ at all. Its huge soundstage would just lack any focus with a pair of omnis which disperse sound all over the place by default.
No matter, Martin has enough experience to find what he wants sooner or later. Almost. I say almost because none of us ever really do find exactly what we want, in truth.
jandl100
29-11-2016, 10:58
Jerry tried the LS26 on his MBLs and hated it. I don't think it'd work well in that situ at all. Its huge soundstage would just lack any focus with a pair of omnis which disperse sound all over the place by default.
Oh god, yes. :doh:
Poor George who had driven many miles to bring the beast to my place for a dem and hopefully a sale.
He put a brave face on it to start with, although looking a bit distraught. :eyebrows:
Even he gave up after a while. :lol: I was maintaining a tactful silence, but "It's not working, is it" he said.
And we moved on to my much cheaper pre (actually the pre section of a Morgan Audio integrated) and that sound very much better.
Lawdy - what a smoothed over, blowsy mush that LS26 made of the music. I've never heard anything like it before or since.
And coloured! - like Joseph's technicolour coat! :D
I've not tried any other AR preamps, but word is that the LS26 is fairly extreme in that regard.
Tbh, that killed off any interest I had in Audio Research pre-amps.
Which NVA cable are you using now, Martin?
It is a special that was made up when I was trying to get an NVA AP30 power amp to gell with the vintage Akai speakers. I'd forgotten all about it. IIRC it is supposed to match speakers that demand voltage rather than current, although that could be complete bollocks.
I don't think the improvement is due to any property of the NVA cable in particular, but more due to getting rid of the Chord Odyssey from the circuit. As a few people have now pointed out, the Chord, for whatever reasons, just doesn't work right with this amp/speaker combo.
The difference is not subtle. whilst the sound was not hard or shouty before, there was some edginess that made it difficult to relax and enjoy. Now I can hear more realism and the front to back layering in the soundstage is obvious, whereas before it was not there at all. Even a civilian would notice the improvement.
What surprises me most is that my hunch to sort the problem by changing the speaker cable was actually right.
My experience with the earlier KSA50 (not the 50S Martin has) is that it was dire WITHOUT a coloured sounding ARC LS26 from the US!!!
And I do think the LS26 was coloured in a way the KSA50 totally needed. That particular ARC threw huge 3D soundstage and some very nice tonality in the mids. I don't think all ARC preamps are coloured to that extent, BTW.
However, a KSA300 with an Krell pre and DAC I heard later sounded very good, really, on both Apogees and some Usher Dancer variant. I was surprised.
Jerry tried the LS26 on his MBLs and hated it. I don't think it'd work well in that situ at all. Its huge soundstage would just lack any focus with a pair of omnis which disperse sound all over the place by default.
No matter, Martin has enough experience to find what he wants sooner or later. Almost. I say almost because none of us ever really do find exactly what we want, in truth.
Can I carry on without appearing to challenge? (I know it's difficult for me to do this and apologies if I do).
Wide and huge soundstages can be an artefact added in with some products in my experience. I think many exalted moving coil cartridges do this, adding a sort of 'halo' around the music which our ears love to hear but which isn't really there in the rather dryer sounding masters in my experience. Maybe added compression in the vinyl cutting stage does this, I don't know... The previous KSA50 is a very different amp to the one Martin has from memory, the only remote similarities being the power, approximate case size, the weight (hope he kept the box I bought for it as it was bloody expensive...) and the model number. The innards and sound are very different in the two generations I think, the old one sounding a bit grey and cloudy in comparison and not as taut in the bass. Later FPB's sounded almost Quad like when new I thought, with a velvet quality but ABSOLUTELY HUGE control and power in the bass. I have huge fondness for an FPB300 we had for dem for a short while, that amp was so good, all but ignoring the speakers connected to it and just opening out (or closing up) depending on what went in...
The one thing my recent few years exposure to a slightly different viewpoint has confirmed for me, is to keep the signal path as simple as reasonably possible and if you have to add electronics to the signal path, I still recommend making sure that no added colour or character is added in. It's my experience and opinion that preamps were the scourge of the earth, certainly in the 80's when so many of them audibly altered what went in to them.
I agree with DSJR re the active pre-amps, and to a lesser extent MC carts, although all my testing is done with digital to avoid introducing another half-dozen variables. If you want to hear the actual recording, as opposed to a coloured interpretation of it (even if it does sound good), then passives rule. :)
(And no I haven't binned the box, I never bin any packaging. Not wise for a box-swapper to do that).
In fact all the box-swapping I have done since joining this forum , and it is a lot, has taught me that if it ain't working don't automatically assume it is the new addition that is causing the problem. A box-swapper learns to think out of the box ;)
My old pal and oppo DQ writes 'Macca's meandering on his hifi should be filed in the box marked "bollocks" There is far two much vague bullshit language going on for my liking ,its leading edge bollocks with fulsome bullshit decay'
Which is fair comment. It is not easy to describe sound in words without it coming over as bullshit. And I rarely feel inclined to write extensively, which doesn't help. To clarify - 'all leading edge' meaning for example a rim shot is just too much, too in your face as to be unpleasant.
Okay so stand in front of a drumkit, get the drummer to hit rim shots and see how long you take to get fed up with it. Not long. So that is more realistic isn't it? Well not if the recording wasn't mixed to make the drumkit sound like that. And it probably wasn't. It gets unpleasant after a while. The NVA cable noticeably softens this effect, but at the same time makes it sound much more like a real rim shot, or to be exact a processed recording of one. You can now hear the decay of the shot as well as the hit, and the space around it.
This applies across the whole sound of course, not just rimshots, but they are where it is most obvious so I choose that example.
If that's still no clearer I'll give up.
walpurgis
29-11-2016, 18:58
I didn't see such a reference to your system on here Martin. Who is the dickhead you mention?
I didn't see such a reference to your system on here Martin. Who is the dickhead you mention?
He posts on a forum that NO-ONE IS ALLOWED TO MENTION. (Except Marco).
Only on a Tuesday, once in every leap year.
Marco.
Since the change of speaker cable sorted out the overall tonal balance of the system I am now much happier with it. So I decided to try my benchmark recording to see where I am at with it. At the NEBO before last we had a listen to Gordon's (Halfway Tree) 3 way digital active system with open baffles, dipole bass and a Benchmark DAC for each channel. This was a landmark for me in terms of fidelity and holographic imaging and has remained a marker for me to aim at. This was the recording that so impressed:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/jeff%20beck.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/jeff%20beck.jpg.html)
My copy arrived yesterday so I stuck it on eager to see how close I have got to the reference.
And the answer is... not very close. It does sound good, impressive even, but it is still short in terms of clarity, and as for the holographic imaging, where you can 'see' the venue and the performers, forget about it. Not there at all. I mean obviously there is a stereo soundstage, but it is not even close to holographic. Damn. Back to the drawing board.
The soundstage thing I could dismiss as the room and the placement. Room treatment and messing with speaker positioning might help here. Marco suggested having the speakers further apart with a bit more toe-in, might look at doing that. The clarity thing, that is where I think I might be up against a brick wall. I'm suspecting that getting rid of the passive crossover and having the amps directly connected to the drivers might be the key there, as I can't see how my current amplification combo could be realistically improved on otherwise.
I suppose I could just be happy with what I have, it is exceeding my expectations and is highly enjoyable, but where's the fun in that? Itches to scratch, what can you do?
Got that album...tis very good..guitar work is extraordinary
Most systems of any calibre just work with certain recordings, Martin. Just cos one album worked brilliantly on the day with one recording doesn't mean to say it is generically good with everything.
It may well be, and probably is the case, that yours will work better than your "reference" with other recordings.
Important to bear that in mind, as I am sure or would hope you are aware!:)
walpurgis
03-12-2016, 12:29
I'm assuming that album was a record Martin. Do you use CD?
If you have an itch to scratch, organising a good CD setup could be fun and there's never been a better time to buy (good) used CDs. I get great satisfaction from CD playback. It's different to the results I get from my damn decent turntable, but just as good. Sounds bloody marvelous! :)
It is a CD. I don't use vinyl for testing purposes, too many variables. I only have a TT set up so I can play my records, which I can't bring myself to sell.
Justin -we did listen to said system fairly extensively, not just this one album, I think with this being a quality live recording it made the most of what it could do in imaging terms, though. Also bear in mind the system was just lashed up in a pub function room, I suspect it is even better on its home ground.
Also bear in mind the system was just lashed up in a pub function room, I suspect it is even better on its home ground.
Probably.
Sell everything and lash up something very similar (semi-serious only - but it would get you want you want you'd hope - or just live in denial:D).
Plan is to keep what I have now and build the active system in parallel. The only expensive part of that will be the speakers, but to sidestep that issue I intend to activate the pair of IMF TLS 50 I have lying around for starters and see what develops.
On the subject of OBs, I like this design in the sense that it looks great. Needn't use a ribbon, but imagine say Ali Tait's OBs, which did sound great, built into something like a think slab of glass or some transparent polymer of some kind. Done well it would look fab.
You could get the baffle work done by some company somewhere so you needn't do anything challenging. And get some nice linished aluminium stands that bolt onto the baffle - again built by some small company. That's what we did for the stands on my Apogees.
Just food for thought for you or anyone, really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6gP37t2Ew
brian2957
03-12-2016, 14:04
I was at that Nebo Martin , and Gordons system was indeed a bit special . Probably cost a lot of money though , and a lot of time to out together .
Ali Tait
03-12-2016, 14:27
On the subject of OBs, I like this design in the sense that it looks great. Needn't use a ribbon, but imagine say Ali Tait's OBs, which did sound great, built into something like a think slab of glass or some transparent polymer of some kind. Done well it would look fab.
You could get the baffle work done by some company somewhere so you needn't do anything challenging. And get some nice linished aluminium stands that bolt onto the baffle - again built by some small company. That's what we did for the stands on my Apogees.
Just food for thought for you or anyone, really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6gP37t2Ew
I have a new design in mind which coincidentally will use 30mm acrylic as the baffle.
I have a new design in mind which coincidentally will use 30mm acrylic as the baffle.
Do it!:)
I was at that Nebo Martin , and Gordons system was indeed a bit special . Probably cost a lot of money though , and a lot of time to out together .
Actually for the performance level the cost was peanuts in relative terms. Although he did build the speakers himself, which would be beyond me.
This bloke has done similar for just a couple of hundred quid, although he did write his own software, that only saves the price of the DSP unit, (a few hundred): https://therationalaudiophile.wordpress.com/the-project/
Ali Tait
03-12-2016, 14:39
:D will do when I get the time. Need to find a CNC place locally that can cut with a water jet. Don't want to do the driver cutouts by hand, would look too messy.
Ali Tait
03-12-2016, 14:41
Actually for the performance level the cost was peanuts in relative terms. Although he did build the speakers himself, which would be beyond me.
This bloke has done similar for just a couple of hundred quid, although he did write his own software, that only saves the price of the DSP unit, (a few hundred): https://therationalaudiophile.wordpress.com/the-project/
The miniDSP unit I use is only 500 dollars Martin.
The miniDSP unit I use is only 500 dollars Martin.
Indeed. It will be next year's project for me. If I can get it working well with the IMFs will then look at building some custom speakers for it. They will be a three way with 18'' bass drivers and about the size of a JBL 4365. Sealed box, though, not open baffle.
My copy arrived yesterday so I stuck it on eager to see how close I have got to the reference.
And the answer is... not very close. It does sound good, impressive even, but it is still short in terms of clarity, and as for the holographic imaging, where you can 'see' the venue and the performers, forget about it. Not there at all. I mean obviously there is a stereo soundstage, but it is not even close to holographic. Damn. Back to the drawing board.
You want Jeff Beck in the room?
Sell the hifi and buy a guitar :D
:D will do when I get the time. Need to find a CNC place locally that can cut with a water jet. Don't want to do the driver cutouts by hand, would look too messy.
Biggish sign company may have one. Company i once worked for did.
Ali Tait
03-12-2016, 15:58
Aye good shout, will have a nose around.
Had Peter (Petrat) round here this morning, he brought me a geetar (which I might show you tomorrow if you are all good).
Anyway long story short he had a bit of a listen to it, (which is probably slumming it a bit for him given what he uses himself); He reckoned the ported bass is the weak point ( 'a bit soft and fuzzy)', and that the lack of holographic imaging could be down to the lack of bass below 40 HZ (the port being tuned quite high, meaning bass rolls off fast after 40 Hz) and that a proper sub that will do 20 Hz would help retrieve the ambient cues lurking in the deep bass.
He makes a very valid point I think. It doesn't actually matter if there are musical frequencies down there on the recording, it still affects the illusion of reality.
I have all the bits to build such a thing lying about, might think about it.
walpurgis
04-12-2016, 21:23
Tune the port to a lower system resonance. Make it narrower or longer. It can be done as a reversible measure.
Not going to get me down to 20 Hz in the bass though. A subwoofer with some DSP would do it easy. Not massively keen on bringing a sub in though, bit like Roy Hodgson.
Had Peter (Petrat) round here this morning, he brought me a geetar (which I might show you tomorrow if you are all good).
Anyway long story short he had a bit of a listen to it, (which is probably slumming it a bit for him given what he uses himself); He reckoned the ported bass is the weak point ( 'a bit soft and fuzzy)', and that the lack of holographic imaging could be down to the lack of bass below 40 HZ (the port being tuned quite high, meaning bass rolls off fast after 40 Hz) and that a proper sub that will do 20 Hz would help retrieve the ambient cues lurking in the deep bass.
He makes a very valid point I think. It doesn't actually matter if there are musical frequencies down there on the recording, it still affects the illusion of reality.
I have all the bits to build such a thing lying about, might think about it.
I've taken a few temporal FFTs of me playing my acoustic guitar. Amazingly it bangs out quite significant LF. Will post it to illustrate later if I can find it.
The level of white represents the level of energy the guitar is producing. The y scale is 0 to 20KHz. Just LOOK at the amount of LF the humble acoustic (Gibson SJ200 Custom Cutaway) is producing! I was amazed when I saw it. It is all body resonance from the acoustic's body. A double bass is huge and will produce FAR MORE.
The bottom pic is simply a zoom in to show the bass region. The y scale is 0 to 4K. The s/w wouldn't let you zoom in any more, but for some chords you can quite clearly see energy right down to the bottom of the graph at the point the chord is struck.
When you think about it, the low E string fundamental on an acoustic is about 82Hz. There's going to be plenty of harmonics below and above it. So, if your system can't hit 20 odd Hz you are defo missing information just trying to replay something as crude as an acoustic.
Food for thought given your previous post.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29172&stc=1&d=1474917469
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29173&stc=1&d=1474917503
I agree, I'm starting to see it as an area I need to work on. I'm putting all operations on hold for the winter now. What I have right now is pretty good. If it wasn't my hobby to keep trying to improve it, I would be happy as it is. But a man should have a hobby ;)
Actually, strumming my guitar now using my phone's guitar tuner s/w shows the E chord as E1 at 41 Hz. E string as E2 at 82Hz. But it also draws a little histogram showing info below the fundamental of the E1 E chord with significant amplitude, which backs the above up.
The fundamental can't be 41 hz though, from a six string. And you have ambient noise to consider. I don't know enough about it, put simply.
Put it this way, the guitar tuner looks for the highest amplitude and checks what the frequency it is at using an FFT.
I just imagine the 6 strings as one, and see that as the fundamental of the chord, as it were, by the algorithm expressed by the previous sentence.
The histogram shows nothing on the guitar tuner when no chord is struck. But a few segments below the 41 Hz fundamental when it is struck therefore ambient noise is irrelevant i.e. it is at too low a level to register.
(Sorry - had to correct the last sentence I typed in jibberrrisshhhh).
As I say I don't have the knowledge to comment. Logic, and some experience tell me you do need flat down to, ideally, 20 Hz, is essential if you want to get absolutely everything most recordings have to offer. Reading around this seems to be confirmed by those who have gone there already.
Actually, strumming my guitar now using my phone's guitar tuner s/w shows the E chord as E1 at 41 Hz. E string as E2 at 82Hz. But it also draws a little histogram showing info below the fundamental of the E1 E chord with significant amplitude, which backs the above up.
E1 is 41.2hz so your pretty much bang on there. E2 is 82.41hz. Might add that E1 is a second bottom string of a 5 string bass guitar. E2 is bottom of 6 string guitar
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0027.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0027.jpg.html)
Some experimenting with speaker positioning. This is with the speakers as far apart as possible (about 6 feet from inside edge to inside edge). Stereo image is deeper and wider, problem is this creates an imbalance at the listening position, not sure why. Tweaked the balance at the amp which is not satisfactory as it smears the image and vocalists no longer seem rock solid and dead centre. Not sure what is going on here, but close up with balance equal there is not a problem, 20 feet back there is.
Firebottle
11-12-2016, 11:05
It's your wall of reflective equipment on the right hand side Martin :eyebrows:
You could try hanging a blanket over it to see if there is any difference ...
That had crossed my mind Alan. Thing is there is a wall of reflective equipment on the other side too. Will have to experiment I suppose. Or move the speakers back in a bit.
jandl100
12-12-2016, 10:32
Re: "holographic imaging"
As ever, I seem to go my own way! :lol:
I think it has very little to do with deep bass.
It's about the resolution of fine detail in the mids, mostly, and a nicely dead room which doesn't blur things, imo.
Sure you can get big & blousy sound from a hefty whoomy wallop down below in a large echoey space, but that's not what I call imaging.
Imaging is about seeing the guitar player just there in the room. With the piano back left of him. It's about hearing the subtle decay of reverb in the recording venue surrounding, and separate from, the musicians.
I think it has amazingly little to do with deep bass.
Imaging happens mostly between the speakers - if they are 6 feet apart and you listen from 20 feet away, it has very little space to happen in and is not going to convince, imho. You need an equilateral triangle setup, or thereabouts - the wider the better, really, providing your system manages decent centre-fill.
And, no, I don't think it can only be captured by omni speakers because I happen to have some - I've heard amazing imaging from normal cone-in-a-box speakers. Perhaps the best ever were a pair of small Harbeths in that regard. Truly holographic. Amazing. ... and no deep bass at all! ;)
I actually agree.
Tube preamps can help in spades with flat imaging. A tube preamp can work wonders over a passive in this regard. A good tube pre can literally invent a whole new soundstage over a passive, adding depth and space in abundance. That ARC LS26 you hated was a massive candidate for doing precisely that with my M&Ds.
The craziest imaging I have ever witnessed in my entire life was from an all tube Western Electric/GIP system at Munich. That threw images that flew right past your head like a laser guided weapon. Insane. One of those audio moments of pure joy, shared with the chap I was with in the form of exchanged smiles of pure glee and utter astonishment! Just no need for words... though plenty were exchanged afterwards:)
Well, I can't physically get the speakers any further apart and an equilateral triangle with the listening pos. isn't possible either so that's that knackered then :)
pgarrish
14-12-2016, 20:43
Re: "holographic imaging"
As ever, I seem to go my own way! :lol:
I think it has very little to do with deep bass.
It's about the resolution of fine detail in the mids, mostly, and a nicely dead room which doesn't blur things, imo.
Sure you can get big & blousy sound from a hefty whoomy wallop down below in a large echoey space, but that's not what I call imaging.
Imaging is about seeing the guitar player just there in the room. With the piano back left of him. It's about hearing the subtle decay of reverb in the recording venue surrounding, and separate from, the musicians.
I think it has amazingly little to do with deep bass.
Imaging happens mostly between the speakers - if they are 6 feet apart and you listen from 20 feet away, it has very little space to happen in and is not going to convince, imho. You need an equilateral triangle setup, or thereabouts - the wider the better, really, providing your system manages decent centre-fill.
And, no, I don't think it can only be captured by omni speakers because I happen to have some - I've heard amazing imaging from normal cone-in-a-box speakers. Perhaps the best ever were a pair of small Harbeths in that regard. Truly holographic. Amazing. ... and no deep bass at all! ;)
I dont think it has much to do with bass either, or expense. My old system of Rotel 965CD, rotel 930AX amp and JPW sonatas could play orchestral music where you could point at the instruments with your eyes closed, including how far away they were. My current system is definitely better at most things, but it doesn't do that - I suspect that trick has much more to do with the room and speaker positioning
I dont think it has much to do with bass either, or expense. My old system of Rotel 965CD, rotel 930AX amp and JPW sonatas could play orchestral music where you could point at the instruments with your eyes closed, including how far away they were. My current system is definitely better at most things, but it doesn't do that - I suspect that trick has much more to do with the room and speaker positioning
I think it depends on what degree of 'holographic imaging' we are talking about. It is a sliding scale. Whilst I agree you can get to an impressive level without the deep bass cues, I'm persuaded by the idea that having them present adds to the illusion.
I've been attempting a rebuild of the home cinema system which has been broken for a long time. All I want to do is to get the sound from the cable box into an amp and out through a set of speakers. How hard can it be?
It has been broken for so long I can't actually recall what the problem was. Anyway, unlike Alan Partridge I am not attempting to connect some rear speakers a propos achieving surround sound. I just want the telly to make sound out of the speakers. Sounds simple enough but there are complications. Firstly the TV has analogue outputs but they don't work, in fact they have never worked. It has two HDMI inputs, they used to work but don't any more.
Yes, getting a new telly would be simpler but I blew the cash for that buying the Krell.
To make matters worse the cable box only outputs USB, optical and SCART. I have an optical cable but the connector does not fit the receptacle on the cable box. You would think these things would be standard but no, that would make life too easy. No USB input on the amplifier, nor will it take SCART.
I recalled my previous solution was to connect via scart to a VCR then use the analogue outs on the VCR to connect to the amplifier. So let's try that. I also want to run the signal through the graphic equaliser, just for fun you understand, so will hook up the VCR into the graphic, then out to the amplifier.
Back of the cable box, one scart going to telly, the other going to the VCR
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0034.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0034.jpg.html)
Back of the VCR. It's dusty behind there, not Springfield, the other dusty.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0032.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0032.jpg.html)
And hook up to the amp with these natty orange interconnects:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0029.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0029.jpg.html)
Does it work? Does it bugger. After swapping all the RCA phono cables out with still no joy I remembered that the reason this lash up failed before was one of the SCART leads went duff. Don't have a spare so will have to nip round to Maplin and buy another SCART. Hopefully they still sell them. What a pain in the ass.
rigger67
02-01-2017, 11:10
I HAVE A SOLUTION !!
:D
Buy a scart cable with two right and left RCA leads on it.
Failing that, if you can't find one PM me your address and I'll send you one - I've got one and don't use it anymore :)
rigger67
02-01-2017, 11:11
http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mUIqmKNNotewlrOAWQSjmnA.jpg
https://www.freesat.ie/avactis-images/ScarttoRCALead.jpg
I HAVE A SOLUTION !!
:D
Buy a scart cable with two right and left RCA leads on it.
Failing that, if you can't find one PM me your address and I'll send you one - I've got one and don't use it anymore :)
You know I used to have one of those, no idea what happened to it, that was 20 years ago. I'll see if Maplin have one, but it won't surprise me if they have no SCART leads at all. In which case I will take you up on your very generous offer, thanks Paul.
Got loads of scarts Martin. They were(the dearer ones especially) were always going funny. Sometimes think the cheaper ones were better
I don't really understand how a cable can fail unless it is physically damaged. And how does that happen when it is just sat there behind some equipment? And how can HDMI sockets fail? That was annoying because I assumed it was the (cheapo) HDMI cable so bought a fancy one from Mark Grant, only to find it wasn't the cable to blame.
Ali Tait
02-01-2017, 11:40
Nope, had a few fail. It's a crap connector IMO.
I don't really understand how a cable can fail unless it is physically damaged. And how does that happen when it is just sat there behind some equipment? And how can HDMI sockets fail? That was annoying because I assumed it was the (cheapo) HDMI cable so bought a fancy one from Mark Grant, only to find it wasn't the cable to blame.
Cables and sockets also dont always conform correctly either which can add to confusion. Ive had cables work in one unit and not in others. I guess the connection itself is none too clever either. Scarts are worse fit wise
rigger67
02-01-2017, 12:24
You know I used to have one of those, no idea what happened to it, that was 20 years ago. I'll see if Maplin have one, but it won't surprise me if they have no SCART leads at all. In which case I will take you up on your very generous offer, thanks Paul.
De nada, amigo :)
Just been to Maplin and allowed them to relieve me of twenty quid (!) for a SCART to phono cable. I suggested to the bloke on the till that he might just as well wear a mask and brandish a pistol if he was so intent on robbing me blind. He says he is going to send me some 'vouchers' - we will see.
Not tried it yet, having a spot of luncheon first.
Hooked up new SCART cable, out of cable box straight into the AUX on the amp. Doesn't work. Now I'm stumped.
check that the scart output is enabled etc...ie analogue
It must be as I have video output.
Didn't know Scart leads were still available or used, thought everyone was now using hdmi?
Is there any digital sound settings that might stop analogue coming out? Is there any analogue coming out of any orrifice
Sound and vision come out of the cable box through one scart and into the TV, that works fine. The second scart is connected from cable box to AUX on the amp and should also transmit sound. But either it isn't, or something else is wrong. Might try swapping the amp but it works on the tuner input so that rules out the speakers and the speaker connections as the problem and probably the amp too.
Checked all the settings on the cable box, no joy there either.
Beobloke
04-01-2017, 15:15
Have you confirmed this in the manual for the cable box? What make/model is it? The reason I ask is that my old box had two SCARTS - one was for output to the TV but the other was an input for a VCR or similar. The idea being that the box could plug between your existing VCR and TV if the TV only had one SCART input.
If this is the case, you might need a SCART to SCART lead with audio breakout. Failing that, it is worth double checking the cable box settings menu even though you're getting video - audio and video are often two separate options that both need to be set correctly.
Thanks Adam
I have had it working this way before hence my confusion that it doesn't work now. The box is made by Samsung. I suppose I could try swapping the scarts at the cable box, maybe the two scart sockets are different and will only work one way round?
Yes, getting a new telly would be simpler but I blew the cash for that buying the Krell.
Maybe if you sold some of the surplus kit you've got lying around the place, daftee, you'd have a enough to buy a home-cinema system that works! ;)
Nah, that's way too radical a concept, innit? :D
Seriously though dude, hope you get it sorted soon, as I know how much joy a well-sorted HC system can bring to one's life...
Marco.
Thanks Adam
I have had it working this way before hence my confusion that it doesn't work now. The box is made by Samsung. I suppose I could try swapping the scarts at the cable box, maybe the two scart sockets are different and will only work one way round?
Chances are if you have 2 scart sockets one will be an input and one an output.
Chances are if you have 2 scart sockets one will be an input and one an output.
Isn't a scart a 2 way cable? Maybe not. Anyway I have had this working before, all the kit is the same. Just makes no sense.
Maybe if you sold some of the surplus kit you've got lying around the place, daftee, you'd have a enough to buy a home-cinema system that works! ;)
Nah, that's way too radical a concept, innit? :D
Seriously though dude, hope you get it sorted soon, as I know how much joy a well-sorted HC system can bring to one's life...
Marco.
I like to hoard :) Some of this stuff is better than an ISA for investment purposes. (Well maybe the turntable collection and the Krell).
It will get sorted at some point. Might have that put on my headstone I think.
Lol, no worries... Btw, I spoke to Anthony about your Techy CDPs, and he said he'd fix them for you no worries. So maybe next time I'm down at your place I could take them away and get them done for you? :)
Marco.
I like to hoard :) Some of this stuff is better than an ISA for investment purposes. (Well maybe the turntable collection and the Krell).
It will get sorted at some point. Might have that put on my headstone I think.
aye those technics cdps are worth money if fixed. as will be your dulci too. TT's continue to increase in price(decent ones) so its a wee blankey for old age martin; doubt it,ll get u a holiday home in the Algarve though.
Lol, no worries... Btw, I spoke to Anthony about your Techy CDPs, and he said he'd fix them for you no worries. So maybe next time I'm down at your place I could take them away and get them done for you? :)
Marco.
That would be smashing. I won't be selling them in a month of Sundays. It took me a long time to acclimatise back to ordinary cd players.
Ok, that's a done deal then :thumbsup:
Marco.
Beobloke
05-01-2017, 16:23
Reminds me - must pick up my SL-P1200. Recently repaired and serviced and now only missing feet and, bizarrely, the 'Play' button. :doh:
Are you familiar with them Adam? Do you have the broadcast variant or the standard model?
Have to say that since replacing the Chord speaker cable this current incarnation of the lash up is really hitting the spot now. Still need to spend some more time on speaker placement, but the sound quality is spot on, has that 'rightness' to it that is hard to define in words but you know it when you hear it. The harmonics or whatever, the way the notes ring out, last time I heard that was at a NEBO with a Radford STA 25 into the original Edingdale speakers, think Marco's Croft was doing pre amp duties. Source was vinyl but even so, 'you instinctively know when something Is right' as they used to say on the commercial.
I really could stop right here after 30 years of box swapping. Being me I won't of course.
Anyways, if you are pondering new power amplification, try and track down one of these Krells. They are blindingly good.
...last time I heard that was at a NEBO with a Radford STA 25 into the original Edingdale speakers, think Marco's Croft was doing pre amp duties.
Indeed it was. That was a lovely sound, in conjunction with the Radford. I know *exactly* what you mean about 'rightness', as that's how it is here. I'm pretty much there now with my system, which is why I post much less these days about hi-fi.
I've never really 'got' the box-swapping thing, other than how Jerry does it (although that still wouldn't be for me), as it tends to suggest one has more interest in equipment than music, and for me the equipment always was a means to an end. Now that that end has pretty much been reached, I'm spending my money on music, or rather I should say, vinyl (records).
We're going into Shrewsbury tomorrow, so no doubt I'll come back with some more fuzzies! :eyebrows:
I'd like to come down soon to hear your Krell. Would be interesting to bring the Croft with me and see how that sounds along with it :cool:
Marco.
Beobloke
05-01-2017, 19:06
Are you familiar with them Adam? Do you have the broadcast variant or the standard model?
Yes, very familiar with them - this is my third. This one and the first were standard types and the second one was the broadcast version, however, that was beyond repair, sadly. Very nice machines with great sound and a joy to use, too!
Of course, the one I really want is the SL-P50 (VU meters!!), but I don't know of anyone, anywhere who's ever seen one, let alone owned one - http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SL-P50.html
I'd like to come down soon to hear your Krell. Would be interesting to bring the Croft with me and see how that sounds along with it :cool:
Marco.
Yep we'll do that when he weather gets warmer. Brass monkeys here at the mo. We can go to Rubber Soul, he's in the new much bigger shop now.
Yes, very familiar with them - this is my third. This one and the first were standard types and the second one was the broadcast version, however, that was beyond repair, sadly. Very nice machines with great sound and a joy to use, too!
Of course, the one I really want is the SL-P50 (VU meters!!), but I don't know of anyone, anywhere who's ever seen one, let alone owned one - http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SL-P50.html
Did you think there was a difference between the standard and the broadcast? I thought so but I got the standard one a while after the broadcast died, so I could never do a proper comparison.
Yep we'll do that when he weather gets warmer. Brass monkeys here at the mo. We can go to Rubber Soul, he's in the new much bigger shop now.
Oooh, goody! :yay:
Marco.
Beobloke
05-01-2017, 22:33
Did you think there was a difference between the standard and the broadcast? I thought so but I got the standard one a while after the broadcast died, so I could never do a proper comparison.
Sadly the only difference I noticed between the standard and broadcast versions is that it was impossible to find a service manual for the broadcast one, which is why it wasn't ever fixed!
I would have thought the BBC must have had one somewhere. Or Technics. I guess you tried them, though.
Beobloke
06-01-2017, 09:33
I would have thought the BBC must have had one somewhere. Or Technics. I guess you tried them, though.
Technics had it but wouldn't release it to me even though I was working full time at Hi-Fi World at the time and tried to play the 'trade' card.
Apparently I had to be an authorised Panasonic Service Centre in order for them to send me it.
That's very jobsworth of them. I don't know why they would be so concerned about releasing a service manual for a product they last made in 1989.
Yep we'll do that when the weather gets warmer. Brass monkeys here at the mo.
... shame you bought the only cool-running Krell in existence :lol:
That's very jobsworth of them. I don't know why they would be so concerned about releasing a service manual for a product they last made in 1989.
Heaven forbid they hire any free thinkers. The way of the worlds companies now and backed by their political puppets :ner:
... shame you bought the only cool-running Krell in existence :lol:
Hey, you witnessed it. You can blast it out for hours and the case is still so cold that your skin sticks to it. (Not quite but not far off). Probably should get a valve amp to swap to in the cold weather.
Hey, you witnessed it. You can blast it out for hours and the case is still so cold that your skin sticks to it. (Not quite but not far off). Probably should get a valve amp to swap to in the cold weather.
Or my Levinson class A monoblocks. Standing dissipation: 400 watts each! So I'm in the opposite position, I have to swap to cooler-running Quad 510s in the summer.
Mr Kipling
06-01-2017, 20:55
Technics had it but wouldn't release it to me even though I was working full time at Hi-Fi World at the time and tried to play the 'trade' card.
Apparently I had to be an authorised Panasonic Service Centre in order for them to send me it.
Nothing very radical in the BBC modified version. This small board is it:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170106/4f67e9405766ad7fe421ee24ce886db9.jpg
Adds function to the start fader (not sure what, as mine doesn't work. The fader isn't the standard type and has two sets of connections. Don't know if it's just a stereo slider as I haven't took it out yet.
If you're getting yours fixed, get new tactile switches fitted. They cost nothing really. Replacing them is a bit of a chore (27), but they make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE to the feel of using it, being a lot, lot, lot more positive in action. The originals feel tired and shagged-out, by comparison. Really worth the trouble.
The two surface mount capacitors (1uF/33uF) on the motor-drive board will have failed, more than likely. A good chance the lasers will be OK.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Thanks Stephen, that is useful information. I guess a lot of these have been junked over the years when they could have been easily repaired, because it was automatically assumed to be a failed laser. It is a shame that the myth that a laser wear out like a stylus does still gets propagated. A lot of good players gone to the tip due to that.
Do you have a link to the replacement switches?
Beobloke
07-01-2017, 14:46
Nothing very radical in the BBC modified version. This small board is it:
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170106/4f67e9405766ad7fe421ee24ce886db9.jpg
Adds function to the start fader (not sure what, as mine doesn't work. The fader isn't the standard type and has two sets of connections. Don't know if it's just a stereo slider as I haven't took it out yet.
If you're getting yours fixed, get new tactile switches fitted. They cost nothing really. Replacing them is a bit of a chore (27), but they make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE to the feel of using it, being a lot, lot, lot more positive in action. The originals feel tired and shagged-out, by comparison. Really worth the trouble.
The two surface mount capacitors (1uF/33uF) on the motor-drive board will have failed, more than likely. A good chance the lasers will be OK.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Interesting - mine had a completely different main control board inside it and, typically, the fault was somewhere on it.
Anyway, its long gone now and my current unit is fixed and working - just need to collect it!
Mr Kipling
07-01-2017, 21:52
Thanks Stephen, that is useful information. I guess a lot of these have been junked over the years when they could have been easily repaired, because it was automatically assumed to be a failed laser. It is a shame that the myth that a laser wear out like a stylus does still gets propagated. A lot of good players gone to the tip due to that.
Do you have a link to the replacement switches?
Aye... Sad. If you put a disc on with graphics that show sections of the bare disc, in the dark, you should be able to see some laser activity.
The switch is a common item and available from loads of sellers. This one in Leeds is selling 75 for £3.50:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371768829014
I got a "free" pack of 50 from another seller. You can have them, plus 4, if you want, as I don't see them getting used. I have enough to do Jerry's. I started to replace them as a few were dodgy on one player. When I put the control panel back together, I was quite surprised, and pleased, at the difference they made.
Oh, the only reason I made the offer of a working one for yours was that you said the same thing in a pm quite some time ago with regards Mr Firebottle. If I could have got both working, you would have got one back. I think I have enough, now, and I don't sell stuff. I just hoard it. After Xmas was over I was going to ask if you were any good with a screwdriver? 5 screws retain the cover. 5 more the transport. 2 more the motor-drive board panel under the transport, which unplugs from the main board. I could send a working motor panel to try, and, if lucky, you might get one working.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Mr Kipling
07-01-2017, 22:26
Interesting - mine had a completely different main control board inside it and, typically, the fault was somewhere on it.
Anyway, its long gone now and my current unit is fixed and working - just need to collect it!
Well, I'm not expert, just a bodger. Searching around it seems there was 4 variants: standard with captive lead and phonos. "B" (I presume it stands for "Broadcast") with XLRs and balanced panel and power socket. BBC Modified ( B with the fader logic board show previously). ATC. No idea what the letters stand for. This has a further XLR socket and appears to have been the highest grade version. Martin T had one for a short time, but returned it as it was less than reliable.
The standard item has the main board and a small motor-control and laser-switching panel and a regulator on a flying lead. The main board on the B and BBC (and ATC, probably), contain these. All 3 (and the ATC, probably) have the same power supply/DAC/audio panel. Mine have, anyway.
Oh, looking for a manual, all there seems to be is that for the standard version. I suppose this reflects what you were saying previously.
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Mr Kipling
15-01-2017, 11:16
Did you think there was a difference between the standard and the broadcast? I thought so but I got the standard one a while after the broadcast died, so I could never do a proper comparison.
I've compared the standard one I bought from Jerry to a "B" one. The standard one has had the power supply/DAC/audio panel re-capped with additional caps, improved rectifiers and some metal film resistors - the panel is common to both. The transformers have improved isolation. I presume this is electrically as I couldn't see anything physical when I had a look. An IEC socket was fitted too, all done by TonyC.
The changes were listed in the thread MartinT started on the 1200, or the first part of this thread. Comparisons were made with a pair of vintage Sennheiser HD424 headphones connected directly. They work really well together.
Differences between the two were quite apparent, and there were two main ones.
1) Basically, a layer of crud was removed giving greater access to whatever was going on. A more open window, as they say.
2) Dynamics. The dynamics of individual instruments became obvious. Cymbals and drums caught my ear in particular.I was listening to a Paul Brady track and was drawn to the drummer's timing, which I'd never really taken that much notice of previously. Now, though, it really stood out, being the foundation of the track.
And so... Which version sounded best?
Well, it was the re-capped standard version.
I know previously you thought the B version was an improvement over the standard one. Just goes to show though that things are never quite what you might expect them to be.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
.
And so... Which version sounded best?
Well, it was the re-capped standard version.
I know previously you thought the B version was an improvement over the standard one. Just goes to show though that things are never quite what you might expect them to be.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
I did but I wasn't able to compare them back to back. Only bought the standard one after the B died.
New speaker cables just arrived. regular readers will recall I got a significant improvement in the sound by swapping out my daily driver Chord Odyssey 2 cables for some NVA LS1.5 I had lying around from a previous lash-up.
This removed the glare from the mids and balanced the sound between bass and top, previously the system had been slightly 'toppy'.
On extended listening, whilst sound quality is now well within satisfactory limits, I did feel that there was a slight overall 'softening' of the sound, barely perceptible most of the time but niggling me still.
I'd previously had a trial of some of the NVA LS5 cable, which is quite pricey, but I was impressed by it. Have now acquired some second-hand and will slot it in the system tonight. If my theory is right, this should make another improvement all round. If so this will be a major victory in my quest to put together a high end sounding system on a beer budget.
If my theory is wrong then ... it's back to the drawing board.
More later.
Okay so having a listen now to The Doors 'LA Woman' re-mastered cd. This is one I've had for years, a good test since this album on any format can sound rough if there are issues with the system. I've had it sounding quite unpleasant in the past an also heard it sound hard, harsh and aggressive on spendy vinyl set ups too.
There is an improvement, not exactly what I was expecting, sort of half what I was expecting plus a drop in noise that is quite marked. I say 'noise', but subjectively t is more of a 'mush'. Not night and day. Quiet sounds in the mix are more easily audible, like cymbals on the opening to the title track. Need to listen to more and different material to get a better idea though. Can't judge on a few tracks. What appears to be an improvement to begin with can always turn bad when you play a particular favourite and it sounds wrong despite everything you played previously sounding good.
I had thought the bass would come out a bit more, bit disappointed by that since last time I tried these cables they did wonders on the bass of some KEF Calindas, and others have noticed that too. Although LA Woman is not a very bassy album.
Anyways back to the listening.
Cables are much thicker than the old ones too so the Krell will like that I should think.
What length do you need for speaker cables Martin?
Just had a listen to Simply Red 'Stars', The Cult 'Love' and Steely Dan 'Aja'. All a step up in all regards. On the title track from 'Love' at the end where the drums finish after everything else I could hear the reverb off the walls. It was there before but only if you listened, now it is just there. Better control on the bass as well, on all three. Lot of intricate bass work on some tracks of 'Stars' which was more apparent than before.
The Cult album really sounded excellent in terms of hearing the recording. Aja can sound lush but too bland if something is sitting on the sound. This was a big improvement but listening to this album indicated to me that there is still room for more.
Leading me to the downside, that tiny bit of softness in the mid/top I still there, not sure what the cause could be now. Might look at the source I think. One thing you can always be certain of in this game is that there is always another veil to be lifted. :)
Okay so having a listen now to The Doors 'LA Woman' re-mastered cd. This is one I've had for years, a good test since this album on any format can sound rough if there are issues with the system. I've had it sounding quite unpleasant in the past an also heard it sound hard, harsh and aggressive on spendy vinyl set ups too.
Hmm... I must play you the 45rpm audiophile remaster I have on vinyl sometime. I can assure you that none of what you have described above applies - and it trounces any version I've heard on CD, too! ;)
In fact, come to think of it, LA Woman would be a good album to rip onto CD and send you, in order for you to carry out some comparisons, as you did with the Nat King Cole.
Anyway, I'm pleased that your speaker cable changes have resulted in what seems like a notable and genuine all-round sonic improvement. Your comment about lifting veils is spot on :)
As audio enthusiasts [I hate the term 'audiophiles'] we're constantly battling against eliminating various types of noise and distortion from the music signal, and when successfully done, the improvements are usually easily heard.
Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Hmm... I must play you the 45rpm audiophile remaster I have on vinyl sometime. I can assure you that none of what you have described above applies - and it trounces any version I've heard on CD, too! ;)
In fact, come to think of it, LA Woman would be a good album to rip onto CD and send you, in order for you to carry out some comparisons, as you did with the Nat King Cole.
Anyway, I'm pleased that your speaker cable changes have resulted in what seems like a notable and genuine all-round sonic improvement. Your comment about lifting veils is spot on :)
As audio enthusiasts [I hate the term 'audiophiles'] we're constantly battling against eliminating various types of noise and distortion from the music signal, and when successfully done, the improvements are usually easily heard.
Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
My point with LA Woman being if the set up is not good it will sound bad, it is not a forgiving recording like some super-smooth showcase job. I'd expect your set up to play any version competently. I wasn't making a point about vinyl vs cd.
Interestingly since this is a 1990s remaster onto a digital medium what I am actually listening to is the reel to reel they used to play the mix into the digital recorder. Which begs the question, is that RTR part of the recording chain, or the playback chain?
The original vinyl master must also have been cut from a tape played on a reel to reel, but 20 odd years earlier, so would more than likely have been a 1960s vintage RTR. So the original vinyl issue and the CD re-master are going to sound different just because of that.
No worries. It was your comment about LA Woman and that you'd heard it sound, I quote: "hard, harsh and aggressive on spendy vinyl set ups", which prompted my response. Quite simply, if the "spendy" T/T in question had been set-up properly, then the sound of that album should NOT have been hard, harsh or aggressive... :nono:
It always amazes me the folk who spend multiple thousands of pounds on a T/T, and don't possess the ability to optimise it (or in some cases even set it up competently), thinking the fact that it's expensive is what will automatically make it sound good! :doh: These folk would be far better off saving their money until they learn how to set-up a turntable properly first!
Anyway, this is the deluxe Doors box set I have, which contains the best sounding version of LA Woman I've ever heard - it is truly stunning: http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/reviews/the-doors-infinite-12lp-audiophile-vinyl-box-set/
Quote from the above review:
We’d be foolish to claim every track on every album sounds better than anything previously released (the DCC issues are held in high regard), but it’s hard to imagine anyone being disappointed with the audio delivered by these new Analogue Productions pressings, and most will likely consider these to be absolutely exceptional, and probably the last word in stereo Doors vinyl.
Indeed - certainly can't argue with that. It's these types of recordings that any serious music lover and audio enthusiast (with a top-notch T/T) should own, as they show off both the true capabilities of the turntables themselves, and that of the vinyl format.
Regardless of any differences in mastering or equipment used during the recording process, the above, sonically, knocks any CD version of the album I've heard into a cocked hat, and for me ably demonstrates that when you chuck enough time, money and expertise at it, the finest music recordings known to man are archived on the best examples of audiophile-grade vinyl or R2R tape, produced entirely in the analogue domain.
Here's my original review of the above box set: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?25073-The-Doors-new-LTD-edition-45rpm-vinyl-box-set-a-review
Marco.
Great video here showing how the box set was mastered and produced... Check out the valve mixing desk and vintage Tannoys:
zKQFs6Da9oY
Quality! :cool:
Marco.
. Quite simply, if the "spendy" T/T in question had been set-up properly, then the sound of that album should NOT have been hard, harsh or aggressive... :nono:
.
Yes, absolutely, my point being a more forgiving recording on the same TT would probably sound fine.
It's a hard one to get right, regardless of medium, is my point. So if it is sounding good then that is indicative of a good set up. Some recordings will flatter a poor set up, so can't be used as a test.
Yes, absolutely, my point being a more forgiving recording on the same TT would probably sound fine.
Sure, and I agree.
It's a hard one to get right, regardless of medium, is my point. So if it is sounding good then that is indicative of a good set up. Some recordings will flatter a poor set up, so can't be used as a test.
I've never found it 'hard to get right', I guess because I've always ensured that the gear I use has been well-matched and properly set up. Those are the benefits gained from fastidiously attending to the mains, supports, cables, etc, so that your system has the best possible 'infrastructure' in which to release its full potential. It also reduces the likelihood for box swapping, as more often than not you'll be satisfied with your system.
You'll find that most folks with properly sorted systems have paid significant attention to optimising the areas above.
For me, correct set-up is the most basic part of owning a hi-fi system. If you can't throw ANY kind recording at a system, and the sound reproduced is good (although not necessarily perfect), then it's broken and not fit for purpose.
I do agree, however, that some recordings can flatter a poor system, which is why you get folks who own an expensive hi-fi system and about a dozen immaculately produced CDs or records, which make it sound good! ;)
Marco.
A friend just dropped these off for me to have a play with:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0036.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0036.jpg.html)
Valve - With matching speaker cab. Quite a lot of iron in the headamp. Apparantly it is quite powerful.
Bigman80
18-02-2017, 18:16
A friend just dropped these off for me to have a play with:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0036.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0036.jpg.html)
Sweet. That's a great combo.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Epiphone boogie? Bet the neighbours loved that :rolleyes: :D
A friend just dropped these off for me to have a play with:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0036.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0036.jpg.html)
Good kit, sadly the days of heads and cabs are behind me. Lightweight and powerful combos is where it's at for those with back injury.
A bass player mate of mine swears by his Orange valve head and cab. I agree it does sound wonderful.
Not had a go on it yet. The mate who loaned it to me also has a vey impressive collection of rare guitars, but he's a lefty so they're no use to me.
Bigman80
19-02-2017, 09:28
Not had a go on it yet. The mate who loaned it to me also has a vey impressive collection of rare guitars, but he's a lefty so they're no use to me.
I'm sure he has. That amp isn't a toy so he'd be pretty serious about his guitars.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
obsessive is the word you are looking for ;)
With guitar
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0038.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0038.jpg.html)
Proper rock and roll. I'm even worse than I remember being but it is more than ten years since I last hooked a guitar up to an amp.
Bigman80
21-02-2017, 14:18
With guitar
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0038.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0038.jpg.html)
Proper rock and roll. I'm even worse than I remember being but it is more than ten years since I last hooked a guitar up to an amp.
Superb combo. I play through a Vox Valvestate which is stunning. I bet the Orange really shakes the house. Gotta love a big stack.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
It is seriously loud. I only tried it for a minute or two at full blast, I don't want the neighbours calling the police. Plus my playing sounds like the guitar is lying on the floor and the dog is walking on it. Got to give it back on Saturday anyway. Prob for the best.
Bigman80
21-02-2017, 18:19
It is seriously loud. I only tried it for a minute or two at full blast, I don't want the neighbours calling the police. Plus my playing sounds like the guitar is lying on the floor and the dog is walking on it. Got to give it back on Saturday anyway. Prob for the best.
Hahaha, that made me loff.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Bet "Smoke on the Water" intro got bashed out :D
I can only remember one song which is 'Hotel California'. And I can't remember where that goes at the bridge. I blame my hands. I have tiny hands, like a doll's hands. Lifeless.
The secret track at the end of Stone Rose's 'Second Coming' has just come on while I was typing this lol
The secret track at the end of Stone Rose's 'Second Coming' has just come on while I was typing this lol
God that album has some great guitar playing in it. It is just off the scale good. Their best IMHO, and it got slagged at the time. Crazy deaf reviewers.
God that album has some great guitar playing in it. It is just off the scale good. Their best IMHO, and it got slagged at the time. Crazy deaf reviewers.
It was trendy at the time not to like it. Wanker music reviewers, I always bought the opposite of what they thought was good. I don't love it as much as their debut, though, but then that was of a time and a place.
I can only remember one song which is 'Hotel California'. And I can't remember where that goes at the bridge. I blame my hands. I have tiny hands, like a doll's hands. Lifeless.
The secret track at the end of Stone Rose's 'Second Coming' has just come on while I was typing this lol
Must have been a good child :eyebrows:
Aye, small hands but big BOZ! :D
Marco.
My youngest offspring plays the guitar - this is his setup (his bedroom gets loud at times!!!)http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170222/5f19e4cbd03b756dd402e0a1f5baeb2c.jpg
Stay Away From the Guard Rails!
It was trendy at the time not to like it. Wanker music reviewers, I always bought the opposite of what they thought was good. I don't love it as much as their debut, though, but then that was of a time and a place.
First album - I Am The Resurrection. Played it incessantly when my father died. Outstanding. 1st album highlight for me.
Second album - Daybreak. Guitar wise surreal. Idiot good.
I like quite a bit of the later Ian Brown stuff a lot too.
John Squire's solo album is...interesting.
Was about to post in the week that I had cracked it with this set up, but I thought no, best not tempt fate.
Nevertheless as I suspected something went wrong. In this case my Parasound CD player is now being picky about reading discs. It's never been completely right, I've always thought it might have a dodgy cap or something as it starts getting a bit of roughness in the sound after a coupe of hours, but it usually only starts towards the end of a session so I live with it. But it is now mucking me about too much.
This is a huge shame as I don't have any working players that are as good. The Sony SACD player I have is okay but it puts that layer of phoney SACD 'smoothness' over everything. The Parasound gives significant extra clarity compared to it.
Otherwise everything is chipper. The JM Lab speakers have grown on me enormously, The NVA LS5 speaker cable has really sorted the bass out, It still sounds a bit 'WAF tower-ey' but that issue is now much diminished. The Krell does its Krell-thing well, still can't get it to light up or get warm though. I don't think it really notices that it has some speakers to drive at all.
More to the point the system sounds good with any type of music or recording you throw at it.
So I'm pretty much almost there as to getting the sound I've been looking for across several decades. I thought I might be onto something when I borrowed that Tisbury passive off of Jerry, but that was just the start and it has been several years between now and then.
I think if I can just get a working digital source that is equal to or better than the Parasound then you can put a fork in me because I'll be done. At the moment I'm torn between buying a top line Sony ES CD player or getting a transport and DAC. The latter would open up the exciting world of DAC box-swapping, but where to even start? Plus at the moment I only have 2 powered components in the system, so no need to use a mains block. CD player seems like the 'tidier' solution.
Went a bit mad with the budget last year in the name of 'lashing harder' but it does seem to have paid dividends. So budget limited to about £500 tops for this, and could do with getting it right first time.
jandl100
25-02-2017, 20:14
DAC.
Right 1st time.
Here ya go http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272445414946?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
After literally years searching for my perfect DAC up to £2k rrp, I settled on that one for the last 18 months or so. I don't even bother to look seriously at anything else anymore. It just nails it for me.
Available in silver or black. :)
Get a Pioneer DV717 or similar as a transport.
Sorted.
£250 or so the lot, max.
-- well, it's worth a decent digital cable for another £20 or so. I'll be happy to recommend summat. :)
Seems to be a DAC and a pre-amp. I guess the preamp can be switched out of circuit?
Still would have the transport to consider. I've got a DV717, it is okay but did not especially impress me as a transport into an XTZ integrated and a Sony AV amp. And I'm inclined to think that the transport matters as much, if not more than the DAC. What are your thoughts on that? I've got a QS Sony with fixed laser mech that is better than most as a transport. Not that the actual disc reading element matters that much, in theory at least. But there is other stuff going on in a transport in any case.
Will keep it under consideration, thanks man.
jandl100
25-02-2017, 20:39
That DAC sounds amazing even with its on-board pre - I use it as is.
The DAC is more important than the transport, but the DV717 or 737 are fantastic transports into a good DAC.
The pre is a deal breaker for me. I'm sticking with what I have in that regard. Since I stopped buying kit based on 'character' and started buying based on (what I think) are basic, solid audio engineering principles I've got a lot further towards what I want.
Of course that may be just coincidence.
jandl100
25-02-2017, 20:54
I use a separate pre as well - sounds much better that way.
But I can understand if a purist would object to double-pre-ing.
I used to be a purist.
But I've grown up now and just judge by results. :D
It may not matter. Depends on how they have it configured, and if the pot is analogue or digital.
pot is just in headphone circuit. quite fancy one myself for main system but cant quite find a good enough reason. I would like to put my big Pioneer in but its not fitting in at moment either. Think the word is Apathy
pot is just in headphone circuit. quite fancy one myself for main system but cant quite find a good enough reason. I would like to put my big Pioneer in but its not fitting in at moment either. Think the word is Apathy
Apathy is my default setting but I am so close now I can taste it. Why do you fancy getting one?
was going to use it as a dac too plus a headphone amp for the vinyl. Not using a dac at moment; just my uber buffer.:D
this http://imageshack.com/a/img924/291/SvSSMr.jpg I was going to put in livingroom but needs to be on top and no room at moment so it is waiting in the wings.
while this is just for show at moment but I may move it on later
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/4307/AEFYi9.jpg
Thought you meant you had seen a review or liked some aspect of it.
Thought you meant you had seen a review or liked some aspect of it.
well I did, as Jerry lkes it and Paul (rffc) has one too
Ah righto. I've not been paying attention then.
Like many of my buying decisions I will research, consider, and anguish over this for a long time and then get something random on a whim. Need to stop doing that.
Firebottle
25-02-2017, 21:55
:lol:
:D
DAC right first time = DAVE but that is £7500 over your budget:eek::doh:
DAC right first time = DAVE but that is £7500 over your budget:eek::doh:
Yeah I know you love DAVE. You want to marry it and have its little digital children. :D
Frazeur1
26-02-2017, 02:32
I don't know what it would cost on your side of the pond, and it might be close on your budget, a Metrum Musette is a seriously nice DAC, and would go a long way.
So many DACs out there though to chose from!
Yeah I know you love DAVE. You want to marry it and have its little digital children. :D
I much prefer vinyl :D
I don't know what it would cost on your side of the pond, and it might be close on your budget, a Metrum Musette is a seriously nice DAC, and would go a long way.
So many DACs out there though to chose from!
£1000 over here so a little bit spendy. Plus it is NOS and I'm not convinced that is anything more than a solution looking for a problem. Agree the choice on the market at the moment is overwhelming.
I know I bang on about DAVE Martin but it probably is one of the best DAC s on the planet at a price! I have taken two people from here who you know well to meet him and even they would tell you their jaws dropped!
You have a tough decision finding a DAC for £500 as there are so many of the buggers to choose from especially if you consider second hand aswell. It's like trying to choose a digital camera, there are a vast array on the market and they are all surpassed by new technology within 6 months. I suppose you could say you have to dive in sometime acknowledging this and maybe a current £500 DAC will be all you need and keep you happy for a good while.
I have heard a good many DACs and have constantly been surprised at how they have moved on from the good old days when they only resided in a CD player but I would say the significant improvements only come every couple of years. It's a pity the really good stuff is so expensive!
Personally if I were ever to go back to digital I would definitely not use a CD player but would use something like this
http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zen-mini-mk2-std
And lash it to a DAC of your choice.:)
If you ever want to hear why I go on about DAVE I can arrange for you to come and have a listen.:cool:
I know I bang on about DAVE Martin but it probably is one of the best DAC s on the planet at a price! I have taken two people from here who you know well to meet him and even they would tell you their jaws dropped!
You have a tough decision finding a DAC for £500 as there are so many of the buggers to choose from especially if you consider second hand aswell. It's like trying to choose a digital camera, there are a vast array on the market and they are all surpassed by new technology within 6 months. I suppose you could say you have to dive in sometime acknowledging this and maybe a current £500 DAC will be all you need and keep you happy for a good while.
I have heard a good many DACs and have constantly been surprised at how they have moved on from the good old days when they only resided in a CD player but I would say the significant improvements only come every couple of years. It's a pity the really good stuff is so expensive!
Personally if I were ever to go back to digital I would definitely not use a CD player but would use something like this
http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zen-mini-mk2-std
And lash it to a DAC of your choice.:)
If you ever want to hear why I go on about DAVE I can arrange for you to come and have a listen.:cool:
Have you heard this DAC in your own system, though? Have you compared it to other DACS in the same system? If not, how do you know that it is DAVE that is the cause of the wonderful sound? Could it not be that it is just a very good system and that any competent digital set up will sound wonderful through it?
I look at some of these DACS and the build cost does not seem to be related at all to the asking price. That bothers me.
As for having a listen, you know me, I am always up for having a listen to anything. I have some time off work in the first couple of weeks of March if you fancy doing something then?
Dave can do anything,... but swim :ner:
Dave can do anything,... but swim :ner:
(You must be at least 45 years old to get this joke)
Have you heard this DAC in your own system, though? Have you compared it to other DACS in the same system? If not, how do you know that it is DAVE that is the cause of the wonderful sound? Could it not be that it is just a very good system and that any competent digital set up will sound wonderful through it?
I look at some of these DACS and the build cost does not seem to be related at all to the asking price. That bothers me.
As for having a listen, you know me, I am always up for having a listen to anything. I have some time off work in the first couple of weeks of March if you fancy doing something then?
I have heard other DACs in the same system so I can judge what DAVE is doing compared to them.
I will try and organise something for March 10th or 11th if I can.:cool:
I have heard other DACs in the same system so I can judge what DAVE is doing compared to them.:
Fair enough then!
Lottery win Dacs would be Chord Dave or Metrum Pavane.
Very different technologies and a lot of moolah so would need a long audition of both.
Considered upgrading my modded Young dac in the past, but resisted as theres something to be said for being happy with what you have, and really its 'good enough'.
Next step dac wise is one of the two heavy hitters above, just as and when.
Now, wheres my lottery numbers again...? :scratch:
Lottery win Dacs would be Chord Dave or Metrum Pavane.
Very different technologies and a lot of moolah so would need a long audition of both.
Considered upgrading my modded Young dac in the past, but resisted as theres something to be said for being happy with what you have, and really its 'good enough'.
Next step dac wise is one of the two heavy hitters above, just as and when.
Now, wheres my lottery numbers again...? :scratch:
Your right Gary they are expensive but certainly not the most expensive out there? I have listened to DACs for a number of years now and they are now getting very good indeed.
A lottery win would help:)
walpurgis
26-02-2017, 11:33
This sounds sublime.
http://i67.tinypic.com/11hq4xv.jpg
Monarchy Audio M22B
Had a model of one of those. Didnt have lock switch. Might have been the A version. Was indeed good for the money. Still preferred my buffer to it.
Ali Tait
26-02-2017, 12:27
Martin, well over your budget but well worth saving for is the Mytek Brooklyn. I recently got one and it really has been a game changer for me. Never thought digital could sound this good.
Martin, well over your budget but well worth saving for is the Mytek Brooklyn. I recently got one and it really has been a game changer for me. Never thought digital could sound this good.
Read a bit about that one. £1600 though. Not a question of saving up, I could buy one at that price but my budget is a self-imposed restraint to stop things getting out of hand. You can bankrupt yourself quite quickly in this game otherwise.
Ali Tait
26-02-2017, 12:44
Well if there is somewhere nearby you can demo one, give it a go. Or, give Dave Brooks a shout, he would most likely send you one to try if you like.
Ali Tait
26-02-2017, 12:45
I have a pretty fair vinyl front end, this dac beats it frankly.
I have a pretty fair vinyl front end, this dac beats it frankly.
"pretty fair" being a faint description of it.. :eek:
Need to get a listen to the Mytek mate, though may be TOO tempting so dunno!
Does Brookie stock them?
Ali Tait
26-02-2017, 13:44
Aye he does. He's away at the Bristol show this weekend though.
We'll have to have a board meeting soon mate.
A couple of years ago now Alan (Firebottle) came around mine with an OTL valve power amp that he had knocked up from bits he had lying about.
I thought I was getting a pretty good sound, thought I had my amplification sorted, at least.
The OTL amp (I had not heard one before) sounded wonderful, I thought it to be better than what I had, not earth-shatteringly better, but a subtle improvement. This was until Alan left, I put my power amp back in the system - and it sounded worse. Not just 'Not quite as good, I'm an audiophile so I can spot these little differences' worse, but 'So much worse that it sounds broken'.
It took me a week to re-acclimatise. But you can never truly go back. I had realised amplification really matters. Okay so that is not as bad as discovering interconnects or speaker cables really matter. But still a bit of a shocker for me.
Anyway: The upshot being I love this Krell amp and if it were not an abomination of God's Laws I would marry it and have its little heat-sinked babies.
Just had to share that. As you were.
jandl100
17-03-2017, 11:07
Which socket do you prefer? - mains, RCA or XLR? :eyebrows:
walpurgis
17-03-2017, 11:13
Nice having a good amp innit. :D
I look at what some are using and shudder. That's not me being snobbish, just the awareness of how much their systems are being held back by amp choices.
Of course, there are some 'standout' amplifier choices in every price range, new and second hand. But it's all 'mix & match' really. Even the finest amp can sound grim with the wrong partnering gear.
Which socket do you prefer? - mains, RCA or XLR? :eyebrows:
LOL
I best not take the miscegeny analogy any further....
Nice having a good amp innit. :D
I look at what some are using and shudder. That's not me being snobbish, just the awareness of how much their systems are being held back by amp choices.
Of course, there are some 'standout' amplifier choices in every price range, new and second hand. But it's all 'mix & match' really. Even the finest amp can sound grim with the wrong partnering gear.
The thing with this Krell, and with the OTL I mentioned, and the Firebottle SECA Dulci amp I have, is that they just sound right. Not some specific ability like detail or 'rez' or bass, the sound is just right in some subliminal way the brain picks up on and says 'Oh yeah, that's it, that is hitting the spot.' The Radford STA15 also does this for me. The XTZ I was using previously could do it, but only a good day and with a tail wind.
Also since I have got a good match on the speaker cable I'm no longer bothered about the speakers 'WAF Tower' bass character since the bass no longer appears to be coming from the speakers i.e it is more 'effortless' in a way that reminds me of my favourite speaker, the coveted JBL 4365. In fact starting to think I don't need to upgrade to them at all. Which is good as I cannot really afford to buy some anyway.
LOL
I best not take the miscegeny analogy any further....
Did you mean misogyny, daftee? You've just lost 25 'rep points' for your spooling earrer! :eyebrows:
Anyway, I'm glad the Krell's giving you a chubby.
Marco.
Did you mean misogyny, daftee? You've just lost 25 'rep points' for your spooling earrer! :eyebrows:
Anyway, I'm glad the Krell's giving you a chubby.
Marco.
Misogyny would make no sense. Well, even less sense. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Miscegeny
Firebottle
17-03-2017, 12:35
A couple of years ago now Alan (Firebottle) came around mine with an OTL valve power amp that he had knocked up from bits he had lying about.
I thought I was getting a pretty good sound, thought I had my amplification sorted, at least.
The OTL amp (I had not heard one before) sounded wonderful, I thought it to be better than what I had, not earth-shatteringly better, but a subtle improvement. This was until Alan left, I put my power amp back in the system - and it sounded worse. Not just 'Not quite as good, I'm an audiophile so I can spot these little differences' worse, but 'So much worse that it sounds broken'.
It took me a week to re-acclimatise. But you can never truly go back. I had realised amplification really matters. Okay so that is not as bad as discovering interconnects or speaker cables really matter. But still a bit of a shocker for me.
Anyway: The upshot being I love this Krell amp and if it were not an abomination of God's Laws I would marry it and have its little heat-sinked babies.
Just had to share that. As you were.
Wonderful :thumbsup:
Misogyny would make no sense. Well, even less sense. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Miscegeny
Fair dos - never heard of it!
Marco.
Mr Kipling
18-03-2017, 10:09
Yes, very familiar with them - this is my third. This one and the first were standard types and the second one was the broadcast version, however, that was beyond repair, sadly. Very nice machines with great sound and a joy to use, too!
Of course, the one I really want is the SL-P50 (VU meters!!), but I don't know of anyone, anywhere who's ever seen one, let alone owned one - http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SL-P50.html
There you go, Adam. About £3,500 with free shipping:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170318/b133ed5fddff8deea55cbe01ee2d7545.jpg
http://ebay.com/itm/252776640300
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Beobloke
18-03-2017, 12:53
I know - there have been three on recently!
Mr Kipling
18-03-2017, 13:26
And you haven't snapped one up?
Bit disappointed with the look of the vu meters. Perhaps it's the dim photo to blame.
How would say your 1200 sounds compared to other players you've had?
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Jerry (JANDL) sent me this Xiang-Sheng-usb-dac-01a to have a go on. Here's a review from a nondescript site:
http://www.sgwoot.com/2012/08/xiang-sheng-usb-dac-01a-review/
He said my jaw would be on the floor when I heard it so it wasn't like he was overselling it or anything :lol:, but to be honest I didn't expect to be that impressed, it's 100 dollars and the case and knobs are metal but not great quality, Jerry has had to use blu-tak to put markers on the volume and selector switches so you know where they are set to, sort of bodge I would do. The power LED had failed and I couldn't get any sound out of it at all with a Parasound transport.
This turned out to be the Parasound's fault and a Sony with a fancy fixed laser transport was swapped in and all was well.
And quite well, too. There was a disc already in the Sony, The Door's 'LA Woman' so I let that play. The opening bars had me raising an eyebrow. The Sony on its own is not that much cop, it does some things well, others badly and it has a bit of grit in the sound that only shows up occasionally but grates when it does.
None of this when it is run as a transport through this DAC though. Like upgrading the player pretty heavily in every aspect. Jaw not on the floor but I am surprised. I'm not using the tube input as for me tubes have no place in digital replay. I'm even going to use that 'no no' glyph thing that Marco uses all the time - here it is: :nono::
This one has had the mod that lets you use the headphone volume to control the line level output so it is in effect a pre-amp, but I have it hooked up through my NVA passive with the volume at half way on the DAC - this was recommended by Jerry, I tried other volume settings but he was right. Halfway is best. Could take the NVA out altogether and it should still work fine.
Anyway listening to a bit of Creedence right now, as you do. Not great showcase recording, just a best of. Not going to bang on with musical comparisons but there's a sax crops up in a couple of the tunes, close miked, that was done very well. Also tried it with Daft Punk, Eagles, and the aforementioned Doors record and verdict: I am impressed.
There is a new version out apparently, Jerry has ordered one I think. Would say this is well worth checking out if you want to significantly improve an old budget or mid price cd player for not a lot. Jerry would say it is better than that and I think he could be right. I just haven't heard that many DACS so wouldn't want to say for sure.
Hey talk to the wankers at Photobucket mate. Anyway there's a pic in the link I posted. This one I've got is not in 'mint' condition.
jandl100
02-05-2017, 18:56
The opening bars had me raising an eyebrow.
That has to be the Macca equivalent of a jandl100 jaw dropping. :lol:
Here's a pic of the wee beastie that Martin has on loan. It's the bigger wee beastie, the wee-er beastie on top is a power-DAC that is also rather interesting.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6774_zpsuri4kdfp.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6774_zpsuri4kdfp.jpg.html)
And yes, I now have the latest/greatest version of the DAC and it is even better than the one Martin has.
Although not quite as good as my new NOS TDA1543 DAC! :eyebrows:
Listening to some Steely Dan ('Gold') had to check to see that I did have the tube output switched out because there is a definite hint of valve in the sound. Some slight softness and some slight euphony in the bass...weird.
That has to be the Macca equivalent of a jandl100 jaw dropping. :lol:
Here's a pic of the wee beastie that Martin has on loan. It's the bigger wee beastie, the wee-er beastie on top is a power-DAC that is also rather interesting.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6774_zpsuri4kdfp.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6774_zpsuri4kdfp.jpg.html)
And yes, I now have the latest/greatest version of the DAC and it is even better than the one Martin has.
Although not quite as good as my new NOS TDA1543 DAC! :eyebrows:
seen those dac3's. seems to be a wide range of prices from same seller and no shot of the back etc. I guess there is some sort of disinformation about them. Look sweet tho.
jandl100
02-05-2017, 19:34
seen those dac3's. seems to be a wide range of prices from same seller and no shot of the back etc. I guess there is some sort of disinformation about them. Look sweet tho.
They are sweet things. I'd been curious about the eBay listings for over a year before I finally succumbed to temptation.
It is curious about no rear photos on eBay - but it's fine - USB, RCA and optical inputs, 1 set stereo outputs.
Fantastic sound.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSC_2010_zps4o1nm76i.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSC_2010_zps4o1nm76i.jpg.html)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSC_2011_zpsf7xs0cuf.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSC_2011_zpsf7xs0cuf.jpg.html)
Yes there is the same thing on offer in at least 3 different names. It has internal power btw so uses a proper mains lead.
the wee-er beastie on top is a power-DAC that is also rather interesting.
Got one of those SMSL boxes doing TV sound duty with a pair of control ones, very good.
They are sweet things. I'd been curious about the eBay listings for over a year before I finally succumbed to temptation.
It is curious about no rear photos on eBay - but it's fine - USB, RCA and optical inputs, 1 set stereo outputs.
Fantastic sound.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSC_2010_zps4o1nm76i.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSC_2010_zps4o1nm76i.jpg.html)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSC_2011_zpsf7xs0cuf.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSC_2011_zpsf7xs0cuf.jpg.html)
so was yours the 150£ or the £350 version. I take it they run on batteries.
jandl100
02-05-2017, 20:06
so was yours the 150£ or the £350 version. I take it they run on batteries.
They are the same thing, Grant.
The designer / seller sets a "RRP" of £350, but then also sells them on auction starting at £140 or so. I took the latter route!
Yes, they are battery powered, charged via the USB input. There is also a power socket for an appropriate external PSU (not supplied with the unit). I've only tried it on battery power so far.
Listening to some Steely Dan ('Gold') had to check to see that I did have the tube output switched out because there is a definite hint of valve in the sound. Some slight softness and some slight euphony in the bass...weird.
This DAC is now on its way to the new owner so have switched back to my Parasound CD player
The Parasound in some respects sounds almost crude in comparison, although it does not have that softness in the bass that, for me, was the Achilles heel of the Xiang. Playing 'Gold' again the sound was much smoother and bass guitar notes are more solid and defined but deffo lacking some of the open, sparkly sound of the Xiang. For example on CCR's 'Have You Ever Seen The Rain' the cymbals at the end are clearly intended to sound like rain. In years of listening to this song I have never noticed that, the Xiang made it obvious.
On the flip side, bass issues apart, I found it quite hard to relax to the sound of the Xiang. There was no audible distortion but there was an overall 'edginess' to the sound that, ultimately, I couldn't live with.
This might account for the liveliness of the sound, a little low level distortion can do that. Some may argue it is a small price to pay but I like my sound to have that 'relaxability' factor and I'm happy to trade a little perceived 'rez' in order to have that. All horses for courses.
Given more time I could have tried some different transports and also using the DAC as a pre-amp direct into the power amp, perhaps that would have resolved the issues? I don't know, but I suspect they are integral to the DAC.
Thanks again to Jerry for the loan.
Never mind ... you'll have a working Technics SL-P1200 cdp tomorrow :D
Last piece of the jigsaw now in the rack:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/DSC_0041.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)
he really does make awfully nice cakes;)
brian2957
14-05-2017, 14:31
Looking good Martin . There can't be many of those going around , working ones anyway . Where did you get this one from ?
walpurgis
14-05-2017, 14:36
How's it sounding?
brian2957
14-05-2017, 14:44
How's it sounding?
+1 :)
Got it from Stephen AKA Mr Kipling.
Sound is very smooth, clean, plenty of wallop. Nothing does wallop like an SLP1200. It isn't edgy at all, might be a little too 'B&O' for some, though, if you prefer edge-of-the-seat-resolution. These days I'm after a more relaxing sound, albeit with good weight and resolution in the bass. I demand 'satisfying' bass :)
I know from owning them previously that this is one of those bits of kit where a lot of what is good about it creeps up on you over time.
brian2957
14-05-2017, 16:00
Enjoy mate :)
Mr Kipling
17-05-2017, 16:06
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/b0523fce02017f9d634e18a943adb579.jpg
Hope you get it, mate.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
he's having a larff:stalks:. love them too but thats silly money imo
Not even the broadcast version.
Just having a listen to this one Stephen sent me now. So different from my Parasound! No wonder people's opinion of digital audio varies so widely. Always amazes me when I swap CD players, the quality may not vary that much between similarly priced players, but the presentation of the music can be so different that it's scary.
This one seems to be getting better as time goes on / I am acclimatising to how it sounds as time goes on (delete as appropriate)
Doesn't sound how my broadcast one used to sound, except for that 'weight' behind the sound, although I have changed almost the entire rest of the system since then so who knows?
jandl100
17-05-2017, 17:24
Can't recall what I paid for my Techie 1200 CDP on eBay --- about £250, I think?
I enjoyed it a lot. Lots of heft, a very 'solid' sound, and the rez (;)) was pretty good if not exceptional.
I think the broadcast has more rez than the standard one. Although I think it was Tony C reckoned that electronically there was no reason for that to be so. Could be mis-remembering that. Didn't he mod your one Jerry?
jandl100
17-05-2017, 17:51
Yes, he did.
A decent but not earth-shaking improvement. I must admit I am struggling now to recall what aspects of the sound improved! - but I was happy enough with the mods at the time.
If this is the same player Stephen had at NEBO I thought it sounded like a "broadcast" sound ( I know you're referring to the model with the XLRs Macca). It didn't highlight *one* particular frequency but them ALL. EVERYTHING sounded spot lit. Steve the Progmeister agreed and commented it was like listening to an FM broadcast.
If this is the same player Stephen had at NEBO I thought it sounded like a "broadcast" sound ( I know you're referring to the model with the XLRs Macca). It didn't highlight *one* particular frequency but them ALL. EVERYTHING sounded spot lit. Steve the Progmeister agreed and commented it was like listening to an FM broadcast.
Same player. Peter (Petrat) said the same, sounds like Radio 2. Completely agree. It's enjoyable and non-fatiguing but doesn't have that Radio 3 SQ. This is not the broadcast variant though. I think Stephen has tried various mods but have lost track of what he ended up actually doing to this one.
Mr Kipling
17-05-2017, 19:35
The main difference between the two types is that the Broadcast version has the extra balanced circuit panel:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/d77706a9a8b8a27ed6e23780da81689e.jpg
The two main boards have some differences also. So any differences in sound between the two will be in the digital domain on the main boards as both have the same power/DAC panel.
I just repaired the fault and left it at that, as it sounded pretty good as it was. I tried all sorts with another, but found it difficult to come to any real conclusions due to the varying mains quality which I have.
Just got another one from Italy:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/d846656beddda2f5e573e9b7646298e1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/ed0e6dabdd3c24319f849a8ae966ac56.jpg
Looks pretty good. Going to try an outboard clock and Lampizator output stage and DC blocker on it..
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
indeed itdoes.. good luck and keep us posted.
Same player. Peter (Petrat) said the same, sounds like Radio 2. Completely agree. It's enjoyable and non-fatiguing but doesn't have that Radio 3 SQ.
You could get it to sound that way though, with the 'extra rez' you desire, whilst still retaining, and indeed building on, the sonic qualities that you currently enjoy. It's simply a matter of giving the player to someone who knows how to go about that and achieve it.
That's the tricky bit though, as Mark (from Audiocom), who did such sterling work on my Sony CDP and DAC, I believe no longer modifies vintage players (or indeed any at all), as he's moved away from that market.
Doesn't mean it can't be done though, although it would take you working closely with someone who knew fundamentally how to get the most from CD, and could 'tune' your Technics player, through judicious component selection, to deliver the sound that you wanted. It's not rocket science, however, for anyone with a sound understanding of digital technology.
Resolution would be improved by employing the use of a well-designed and implemented re-clocking circuit, as it would address jitter, as would re-capping key parts of the output, where electrolytic capacitors, long past their sell-by date, will be colouring the sound, all of which will improve 'rez', without fundamentally changing the sonic signature of the player, and there are other things you could do, too.
It's all moot though, if you're enjoying it as it is, and of course how much time and/or money you were willing to throw at any program of modifications.
I spent nearly £2.5k on modding the Sonys, and they cost me as much again, when I bought them second hand, but *so far* I've yet to hear anything else that's able to reproduce CD in such a way that one can genuinely hear its true potential, and with it, digital at its very best.
I fully believe that your 'Techy', with the right treatment, would be capable of similar performance :)
Marco.
Any thoughts on that, Martin? :)
Marco.
Steve the Progmeister agreed and commented it was like listening to an FM broadcast.
Hi John. I used to find that the Technics amplifiers of the 80s and 90s were also voiced that way ... must have been a 'house sound'.
Anyway, here's two more 'sick' ones, en-route from Martin, for delivery to Stephen's hospital services when I'm up North again next month.
My wife wondered if they were cash registers :D
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/petrat56/20170518_122801_zpssypi5yes.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/petrat56/media/20170518_122801_zpssypi5yes.jpg.html)
Any thoughts on that, Martin? :)
Marco.
It's getting someone to do it and the shipping issues. These things are big and heavy, lots of opportunity for the couriers to get smashey smashey with them.
Hi John.
I used to find that the Technics amplifiers of the 80s and 90s were also voiced that way ... must have been a 'house sound'.
Anyway, here's two more 'sick' ones, en-route from Martin, for delivery to Stephen's hospital services when I'm up North again next month. My wife wondered if they were cash registers :D
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/petrat56/20170518_122801_zpssypi5yes.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/petrat56/media/20170518_122801_zpssypi5yes.jpg.html)
Broadcast variant is on the right, note the differences in the layout and the display
Mr Kipling
18-05-2017, 14:28
Not one for blowing my own trumpet. My technical knowledge is limited, but I'm not a cretin. And somehow, somehow, I've managed to get four faulty ones working. Whereas, others, with greater technical knowledge than myself, would, I presume, couldn't manage. The laser in the one Martin has was replaced and had to be reset, without a 'scope and test CDs. But, somehow, somehow, I managed to do it, and it was working fine with everything I tried. Looking on-line I have found stories from engineers saying it was difficult to get the 1200 to track. They would get it to track a disc fine, then put on another, and it would skip.
If I wanted to, I could have simply put the power supply/DAC panel from the one I bought from Jerry which TonyC modded, into Martins. He would now have a sound that would be more controlled, a bit more detailed, greater separation or instruments and a greater sense of extreme right and left imagery. A more Radio 3 type sound.
He could have had that. He could have had that. But I was less than convinced after hearing Martin's with it's original panel, after getting it working. The thing that struck me, was the sense of clarity, that was missing with Jerry's panel. It wasn't just the clarity, there seemed a better cohesiveness and a sense of biggness compared to Jerry's, which sounded a bit small and restrained. TonyC re-capped the board using some Os-cons, greater value supply capacitors and additional de-coupling capacitors.
For a good 4 or 5 weeks I tried things and listened to what resulted. This shows some of that:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/fac90f140a61b4a2ec75cc64227918f1.jpg
The main supply caps were replaced with Panasonic FC types. The carbon film resistors were replaced with metal film types. The op-amps were replaced with more modern ones. The bridge rectifiers were replaced with ultrafast type diodes. The dacs were screened with lead. The wiring to and from the panel was screened with copper foil. Decoupling capacitors were added.
You might think that all of that would be "for the better". Sadly, sadly, that wasn't the case. Replacing the supply capacitors, and the carbon film resistors on the output panel containing the phono sockets with Panasonic FCs and metal films, did improve overall clarity. But, replacing capacitors elsewhere was less successful. I replaced one set with Panasonic's and another type and the bass texture suffered. So the originals went back in. Changing the original NE 5532 op-amps for LM 4562 ones brought an obvious improvement in dynamics and upper-bass snap - but again at the expense of bass extension and texture. LME 49720HA ones were tried. These are supposed to be top-notch ones. Everything sounded boring as hell, so out they came. Shielding the wires seemed to flatted things and slur transients, so off it came. The carbon film resistors were changed to metal, with mixed results, and then to Takman carbon films, again, with mixed results. At the end of the day, everthing tried had it's own set of compromises, most, anyway. And then there was component burn-in and varying mains quality. One night after trying the 4562 op-amps and some metal film resistors the sense of torque was madness. I stayed up till 2.30 listening. It was like that for a couple of nights, and then disappeared.
At the end of the day, I chose what seemed like the best compromise. To me, at least.
COST. What did it cost Martin? NOTHING. He got one working one for one non-working one. When the Broadcast one gets fixed (if), he'll get it back, although he said I could have his two for getting a working one.
The one he has was totally stripped and cleaned:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/a179a0ac1e3bc48fcb73be4d7a1dc69d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170518/8ece2b19c08598c6bb1c166623f5c72c.jpg
I don't think a service engineer would have bothered. The display was disassembled and cleaned to remove the layer of grime on it and the filter on the reverse. The front perspex panel was polished to remove some scratches. Again, not something an engineer would have bothered with. All the tactile switches were replaced, just for the feel in use. The originals feel pretty shagged. Again, I don't think a service engineer would have bothered.
To my mind, (but what do I know?) a discrete output stage would offer the most obvious improvement. And that is why I intend to try a Lampizator stage. That and a valve low jitter clock.
Bring a Sony to the next NEBO, Marco, and I'll bring a Technics as described. Hopefully it will kick the shit out of the Sony. If not, I won't be worried - as I don't have an ego to maintain.
Ask TonyC what can and cannot be done with a 1200. He has more knowledge and experience of it than I have.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Blow away.. youve done superbly well. Techy master black belt :D
jandl100
18-05-2017, 15:06
Very interesting indeed, Stephen.
And nice work, if I may say so!!
I must admit that I had hoped TonyC's mods (I hadn't realised they were so extensive!) would blow me away and take it to the sort of sound quality level that Marco is on about.
But no, a definite and hearable improvement - but basically just a bit better all round, iirc, with nothing to go WOW about, even for an over-excitable chappie like me!
brucew268
18-05-2017, 17:11
Well impressed, Stephen! That's some care and energy to find what worked and what didn't.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Thanks Stephen, all interesting stuff. The cosmetic condition is amazing, looks and feels brand new.
Did you make any changes to the output level? Seems to be lower than I remember.
The Black Adder
18-05-2017, 17:58
I've always fancied one of those players. I think they look great.
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
Mr Kipling
18-05-2017, 19:44
Well impressed, Stephen! That's some care and energy to find what worked and what didn't.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Thanks Bruce. Yes, it did get a bit tiring trying one change at a time and listening for changes, especially when the mains quality was less than consistent.
Nice to meet you at the NEBO.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Mr Kipling
18-05-2017, 19:50
Thanks Stephen, all interesting stuff. The cosmetic condition is amazing, looks and feels brand new.
Did you make any changes to the output level? Seems to be lower than I remember.
No. I just replaced the carbon resistors on the output panel with metal films, for a bit of overall clarity.
I've just sent for a clock (not the alarm type). I'll fit it to another standard 1200 along with a Lampizator output stage along with one or two other thoughts and you can compare it to yours.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
TBH I could just LOOK at one of these all day, never mind listen to it. They are so "of my time" for a kid getting into hifi in the late eighties/ early nineties. And I loved the sound of it too. I can see one of these in my future.
Agree with Grant, great work from Stephen and a pleasure to chat to at NEBO, real gent.
That would be good. I don't think anyone has done into mods on this player to the extent you have. There is next to nothing on the internet compared to say a Marantz CD63 or something.
Mr Kipling
18-05-2017, 20:56
I just tried the obvious, which has been tried by others with various players - with varying results. I wish, I wish I could have got the best from everything I tried - the vocal clarity, the focus the crazy torque, the really fat, texturous bass - sadly, it wasn't possible.
Really curious to know what might result with the Lampizator stage, as it's a pretty simple circuit cutting out a lot of components in the signal path, that is in the output stage panel.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
It's getting someone to do it and the shipping issues. These things are big and heavy, lots of opportunity for the couriers to get smashey smashey with them.
Yeah, good point, although there are ways round that, if you were serious about going down that route. In any case, it looks like Stephen's got it sorted :)
Marco.
Bring a Sony to the next NEBO, Marco, and I'll bring a Technics as described. Hopefully it will kick the shit out of the Sony. If not, I won't be worried - as I don't have an ego to maintain.
Lol... Me neither. It's not about "maintaining egos"; it's about discovering and listening to new and/or different kit that sounds fab, and showing folks alternative ways of getting a good sound. No problem, I'll bring the Sony combo to the next NEBO.
Btw, you've done a great job with those Techies, so keep up the good work! :cool:
Marco.
Mr Kipling
26-06-2017, 19:09
Is your Inbox full? Can't send a message.
Both your 1200s are working.
Is your Inbox full? Can't send a message.
Both your 1200s are working.
martin is away at moment Steven
Mr Kipling
26-06-2017, 19:16
Might explain it then.
Both your 1200s are working.
Suggest you change your forum name to The Healer ... with the appropriate John Lee Hooker avatar, of course :D
Well done, Stephen. Was it just that they were full of ... DUST? :lol:
Mr Kipling
27-06-2017, 18:35
Sorry. My mistake. It's me with no room for messages.
I wouldn't like to say, Peter. I wouldn't like to say.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Is your Inbox full? Can't send a message.
Both your 1200s are working.
Hi Stephen
Did both of them have the same fault? And does the broadcast one sound different from the standard one? When I compared them I remember thinking that they were noticeably different but memory can be a bugger.
Mr Kipling
01-07-2017, 23:10
Yes, Martin. Both had the same fault (!). I sent a message, but it seems to have got lost. I'll send another.
Stripped and cleaned the Broadcast one and replaced the function switches as a few were faulty, today. Gave it the better control panel from the Standard one - and it's still working.
The two do sound different. The Broadcast version has better spatial clues, better start/stop and drive. On the other hand, on some tracks the Standard version sounds cleaner and clear. Having said that, listening to the Broadcast one just now after putting it back together, it does sound cleaner than previously. I don't know if that's down to renewing connections or just the mains quality. It does vary quite a bit, making it difficult to judge.
Oh, the output on the one you have might be down with using the remote when I was looking at it. I might have lowered the output by accident I didn't think to check the output level before you got it. I'll send a remote and you can check.
Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
Good to know I was not imagining the Broadcast one being better or that the output on the one you sent over seemed a little low :) Better than it being too high though. Have you determined what it is in the circuit that makes the difference in sound quality?
Looks like there is a common failure point on these units that is nothing to do with the laser or transport as people seem to assume. Probably true of lots of flagship players of all makes that have been wastefully binned because people think the laser wears out like a stylus on a record player - the internet has a lot to answer for LOL. These things are not the usual disposable consumer crap, they deserve to be kept in service as true classics.
Mr Kipling
02-07-2017, 17:22
The main board on the Broadcast version is neatly laid out and uses less components:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170702/7b96fb2b46ea314a57da22e158e99b9f.jpg
On the other hand, the Standard version is more scrappy and uses secondary boards for motor and another for laser switching, and uses more components:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170702/ad45d1a9e045e1716ce4fa5e8fa011be.jpg
Hardly surprising they sound different. Similar levels of differences can be had though by recapping the power supply/DAC panel or changing the resistors.
I replaced the capacitors on the motor panel that had started to leak and eventually would have caused it to fail.
It reads discs and stops really fast. Oh, and no one had looked at it previously. Bit of a novelty.
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So the bloke who said there was no significant difference between the broadcast and the standard either knew nothing or was fibbing. Good to know my ears were not deceiving me. It was far and away the best CD player I have had in my system, and that is out of at least a couple of dozen. It embarrassed, and I'm not exaggerating, the Cambridge Azur 840C with all of its fancy upsampling circuitry. Mind you the Parasound CDPi1000 does that too and it was only £40 used. What a hobby this is.
Mr Kipling
02-07-2017, 21:26
I think I might have said that! Suppose it depends on how much emphasis you place on significant.
I think there was something like 5 or 6 different versions. Don't know how the others differed.
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I think there was something like 5 or 6 different versions. Don't know how the others differed.
Ah! the plot coagulates. The Japanese do like to continually tinker with their products I suppose.
To my mind if I hear a difference and then it turns out there are differences in the circuitry it is cased closed. I guess I am meaning 'significant' difference as my having a clear preference for one over the other.
Replied to your PM btw
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