View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up 2: Lash Harder
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Pigmy Pony
17-08-2024, 10:39
You'd have to speak with the blokes doing the work. There's a solution to most problems and not necessarily costly. And if it needs done to get your listening room how you want it, that's pretty important.
You'd have to speak with the blokes doing the work. There's a solution to most problems and not necessarily costly.
Yes, not sure what that would be though. Anyway that's a long way off yet.
Pigmy Pony
17-08-2024, 14:54
Yes, not sure what that would be though. Anyway that's a long way off yet.
As we get older, we find that nothing is a long way off. Except delivery of new speakers, that'll seem like an eternity.
I think maybe late September at the earliest for delivery. There's a bit of a queue.
Ports back or front is just aesthetics, it doesn't matter unless you want to jam the speaker right against the wall.
September is almost over. Any update?
15” should be great. To have something like that, I would have to rearrange my “listening” room (aka Man Cave).
September is almost over. Any update?
15” should be great. To have something like that, I would have to rearrange my “listening” room (aka Man Cave).
Middle to end of October.
I was being a bit optimistic with end of September, I think. There's a lot of work involved and there's two or three builds scheduled before mine.
I'm having the fronts done matt black, I don't like those pinstripes. Castors fitted which will bring them up to the right height and make them easier to move and position.
Not sure what the weight of them is but I'd guess well over 40 kilos each.
There'll be an external resistor on the back which can be easily swapped out to alter the level of the tweeter.
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2024, 12:10
Middle to end of October.
I was being a bit optimistic with end of September, I think. There's a lot of work involved and there's two or three builds scheduled before mine.
I'm having the fronts done matt black, I don't like those pinstripes. Castors fitted which will bring them up to the right height and make them easier to move and position.
Not sure what the weight of them is but I'd guess well over 40 kilos each.
There'll be an external resistor on the back which can be easily swapped out to alter the level of the tweeter.
Nice to have I guess, but I don't imagine it will be used while you're running that Sony pre.
Nice to have I guess, but I don't imagine it will be used while you're running that Sony pre.
Yes. I was in two minds about it but in the end I thought I might as well have the option, just in case.
Some people who've built them say they can be a bit sharp in the top end, but they all opted for the Be tweeter whereas being a cheapskate I've gone for the less expensive fabric dome one.
Whether the Be tweeter is the cause of that I don't know. Seems unlikely, and there could be several other causes, but time will tell.
Pigmy Pony
22-09-2024, 13:32
I don't think you could ever be accused of being a cheapskate. 'Canny' perhaps, and there's nowt wrong with that. Looking forward to hearing these new speakers, I haven't heard any of Jason's stuff.
I don't think you could ever be accused of being a cheapskate. 'Canny' perhaps, and there's nowt wrong with that. Looking forward to hearing these new speakers, I haven't heard any of Jason's stuff.
I've had a listen to a couple of the TG designs that he's made. Seems to do good work.
Can you post a photograph of your bespoke speakers please Martin? We can't wait until mid October! :lol:
Can you post a photograph of your bespoke speakers please Martin? We can't wait until mid October! :lol:
lol - They're not really bespoke more of a pattern design. Imagine these but without the stripes and a matt black fronts for the 'studio' look.
https://i.ibb.co/DKk7rtc/faital.jpg (https://ibb.co/5cv5K6p)
Yes, a matt black baffle will disguise the speaker cones and look more professional (or as you say "studio").
I assume the connection to the amplifier will be some other arrangement to the cable emerging from one of the ports?
Having them on casters will be a big help to put them to one side when the vicar comes round for tea. ;)
They are going to kick some ass!
Yes, a matt black baffle will disguise the speaker cones and look more professional (or as you say "studio").
I assume the connection to the amplifier will be some other arrangement to the cable emerging from one of the ports?
Yes, there will be regular binding posts on the back :)
They are going to kick some ass!
I really don't know what to expect. They do look good on paper.
What I'm hoping for is that effortlessness that you only get from big drivers in big boxes with high sensitivity.
As long as they have that and no nasties they'll be good.
I really don't know what to expect. They do look good on paper.
What I'm hoping for is that effortlessness that you only get from big drivers in big boxes with high sensitivity.
As long as they have that and no nasties they'll be good.
I am sure they will be fairly refined with a big sound, certainly not "rock boxes"?:)
I have listened to the ATC 150 SCM speakers a fair bit recently which are about the same size and proportions with 15 inch drivers and they sound big, effortless and relaxing!
I am sure they will be fairly refined with a big sound, certainly not "rock boxes"?:)
I have listened to the ATC 150 SCM speakers a fair bit recently which are about the same size and proportions with 15 inch drivers and they sound big, effortless and relaxing!
That's the idea. Can only hope for the best, but the basic principles are right.
Here's some with the black fronts (although they also have the Be tweets).
https://i.ibb.co/L0jsDfF/fiatal.jpg (https://ibb.co/BfWYHRp)
That's the idea. Can only hope for the best, but the basic principles are right.
Here's some with the black fronts (although they also have the Be tweets).
https://i.ibb.co/L0jsDfF/fiatal.jpg (https://ibb.co/BfWYHRp)
Like how the tweeter is positioned at ear height.
Not sure where the focal point is, maybe between tweeter and mid?
This bloke did his in gloss white which I would have too but it would have cost a lot extra:
https://i.ibb.co/MkXhBqy/fair-white.png (https://imgbb.com/)
Very very nice Macca, speakers look tbe business.
Big changes afoot!
Definitely better without the pinstripes m'thinks.
When are they due to arrive - by the end of the month? :popcorn:
Very very nice Macca, speakers look tbe business.
Big changes afoot!
Definitely better without the pinstripes m'thinks.
I know. I think they look terrible. But it's personal taste innit?
When are they due to arrive - by the end of the month? :popcorn:
Hopefully.
Not sure where the focal point is, maybe between tweeter and mid?
This bloke did his in gloss white which I would have too but it would have cost a lot extra:
https://i.ibb.co/MkXhBqy/fair-white.png (https://imgbb.com/)
Hi Macca. Just looking back in to see you're ready to get these monsters :D I wonder how they'd do on a Klippel test system - and don't you DARE to tell me you don't care a toss about it :D :respect:
Hope they go well for you :)
Just as I'm about to move almost fully backwards from 2007 to 1974 assuming the speaker refurb goes well ;)
Hi Macca. Just looking back in to see you're ready to get these monsters :D I wonder how they'd do on a Klippel test system - and don't you DARE to tell me you don't care a toss about it :D :respect:
Hope they go well for you :)
Just as I'm about to move almost fully backwards from 2007 to 1974 assuming the speaker refurb goes well ;)
Smoke me a Klippel, I'll be back for breakfast.
Here's the Klippel for what I was going to get, until I thought the TG speakers might be more fun:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/mofi_soucepoint_888/
1974 was a good year. Spendor?
Smoke me a Klippel, I'll be back for breakfast.
Here's the Klippel for what I was going to get, until I thought the TG speakers might be more fun:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/mofi_soucepoint_888/
1974 was a good year. Spendor?
Yeah - and on lw trolley stands too (AVF to start with but fingers' crossed the originals can be found)
Yeah - and on lw trolley stands too (AVF to start with but fingers' crossed the originals can be found)
Must be some out there somewhere.
I'm advised that construction on new speakers is starting this week coming, looking at end of November now.
Previous order, which is a smaller version (6 inch mid and 12 inch bass) of what I'm having, took longer than expected.
Took the opportunity to improve the spec a bit. Fancier binding posts - so they look the part, I'm not much for the idea that these things matter for sound quality - and they will be rebated into the cab, not sticking out proud. Just to avoid damaging them if moving the speakers about.
I was only thinking this morning to ask you how the new speakers were progressing.
So good news all round; decent binding posts will allow a good, tight connection to be achieved.
Front baffles are done:
https://i.ibb.co/WGRpgYP/baffles.jpg (https://ibb.co/Gnr3cbt)
Some more construction:
https://i.ibb.co/myRdTCH/SPEEK2.jpg (https://ibb.co/Ks5Bhj9)
Might get them 9th December.
Gonna need a large lorry to transport those!:)
AJSki2fly
02-12-2024, 08:02
Some more construction:
https://i.ibb.co/myRdTCH/SPEEK2.jpg (https://ibb.co/Ks5Bhj9)
Might get them 9th December.
Looking good what are they, I presume you’ve already said, I missed it?
Looking good what are they, I presume you’ve already said, I missed it?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Faital-3WC-15.htm
Ali Tait
02-12-2024, 09:34
Proper bracing there mate, cabs should be solid as a rock.
Proper bracing there mate, cabs should be solid as a rock.
Yes, the construction is 'no compromise.'
I calculate max SPL at about 118dB at 1 metre. Could use them as a P.A. :D
In reality I never listen at high levels but do like a speaker that is only cruising at the levels I like, you get that sense of effortlessness.
Ali Tait
02-12-2024, 10:53
Yes, lower distortion too.
Yes, lower distortion too.
That is the key.
Problem is they do have a really hard act to follow with the speakers I have already. I've really got the whole thing just how I want it right now, so I'm just a bit concerned that this won't work out. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Ali Tait
02-12-2024, 11:36
It is. Same idea in many OB's- run a large high efficiency driver(s) so it's barely ticking over most of the time. Colin did the same with the Edingdales, except running several smaller drivers to mimic a larger, but same idea, run them very easy so they operate in their most linear region. Makes the difference.
All done and working:
https://i.ibb.co/VqrcMz4/IMG-20241206-WA0001.jpg (https://ibb.co/kSksqwC)
The speakers next to them are also a Troels Gravesen design. They have active bass drivers. For sale at £8K if anyone's interested.
Big boxes so definitely going to produce a big sound. Will be interesting to know how well controlled they are?
Measurement at 1 metre shows them as pretty smooth, but I don't really know what to expect. That's part of the fun.
Pigmy Pony
06-12-2024, 21:35
Looking at that picture it's hard to appreciate just how big those buggers are going to be :eek: 15" bass drivers.
Gonna need a large lorry to transport those!:)
Gonna need a bigger boat
https://i.imgur.com/Rk2Ooq8.jpeg
Best of luck Mate,
they look awesome, but they are big buggers!
Know your a DSP guy,
Hopefully ‘Remove front window, negotiate pallet truck to manoeuvre down and forget’, but if not, hopefully any room nodes from SPL or other dark sorcery can be dialled out.
Admire your chutzpah Martin
get it done!
https://imgur.com/a/oE1xMZG
Looking at that picture it's hard to appreciate just how big those buggers are going to be :eek: 15" bass drivers.
They are huge. I have spent some time with the ATC SCM150 speakers which are almost the same dimensions as the speakers Macca is wheeling into his gaff. The ATC SCM 150 have 15 inch and are 50cm x 50cm x 100cm tall. 75Kg each in weight:eek: Gonna be a two man lift.
New Speaker Day is finally here:
https://i.ibb.co/xSrzYbt/s.jpg (https://ibb.co/4Z042Ln)
https://i.ibb.co/qYbVNqS/speek1.jpg (https://ibb.co/yFL76v9)
Pigmy Pony
09-12-2024, 16:36
:yay: Looking good, how are they sounding? Will you have some tweaks to do, or are they already as they should be?
No tweaks. They took an hour or so to warm up but they are ridiculously good.
Pigmy Pony
09-12-2024, 18:00
So folding one corner of your rug isn't a tweak then? Look forward to hearing these, put me on your visitors' list. The VIP list please, the one with Hobnobs :)
So folding one corner of your rug isn't a tweak then? Look forward to hearing these, put me on your visitors' list. The VIP list please, the one with Hobnobs :)
oh that tweak. keep quiet about it or everyone will be doing it.
Can't afford chocy biscuits after getting these. be on the Rich Tea like when there was a war on.
Look smaller than I thought.:scratch:
Pigmy Pony
09-12-2024, 18:27
oh that tweak. keep quiet about it or everyone will be doing it.
Can't afford chocy biscuits after getting these. be on the Rich Tea like when there was a war on.
At least you'll be sorted if there is another war. You could shelter in one speaker and rent out the other one. And I'll pass on the Rich Tea, I'd rather eat playing cards.
Look smaller than I thought.:scratch:
They look smaller in the pics. They are stupid big. This one is closer but still not like it is in reality:
https://i.ibb.co/GWFj1gj/sp2.jpg (https://ibb.co/y6VJMLJ)
In reality that distance between them is only one and a half of the baffle width but it looks in the pic like you could fit three more in between them.
. And I'll pass on the Rich Tea, I'd rather eat playing cards.
I believe that these days they are actually made from old playing cards.
Of course in the war they were made of tickets collected from the floor of the bus.
I'm around this Friday if you're on one of your many days off.
Pigmy Pony
09-12-2024, 18:39
The SCM 150s will have a volume of er, 150 litres, while Macca's are 180L. Probably an optical illusion.
Father Ted explains the concept better than I can:
https://youtu.be/MMiKyfd6hA0?t=6
Wakefield Turntables
09-12-2024, 19:08
180L, is that all :lol:, try over 300L for my pair of wardrobes that I use on my 15" MG, serioulsy Macca I hope your new kit hits the spot.
180L, is that all :lol:, try over 300L for my pair of wardrobes that I use on my 15" MG, serioulsy Macca I hope your new kit hits the spot.
Cheers Andrew - yes they are just miniatures compared to those giant Tannoy.
Congrats, certainly look impressive!
Yep 180L is big. I can only imagine that as I know the ATC SCM 150 well and I thought they were big!
Those 15 inch woofers are certainly going to move some air(hair?) and dig deep. What is the speaker sensitivity?
Yep 180L is big. I can only imagine that as I know the ATC SCM 150 well and I thought they were big!
Those 15 inch woofers are certainly going to move some air(hair?) and dig deep. What is the speaker sensitivity?
Estimated 95dB
Estimated 95dB
So you don't need anything with loads of power to run them, that's good. Your Krell should be just fine?
So you don't need anything with loads of power to run them, that's good. Your Krell should be just fine?
Overkill for them. They're a fairly easy load too, a NAD 3020 would do the job in any normal size room -unless you want to go deaf.
Firebottle
10-12-2024, 08:27
Congrats on new speaker day, looking great!
Overkill for them. They're a fairly easy load too, a NAD 3020 would do the job in any normal size room -unless you want to go deaf.
Good then at least you don't have to spend more on an amp to drive them.
Congrats on new speaker day, looking great!
Cheers Alan, I'm pretty please with them so far.
New speaker day is always a good day.
Congrats Martin.
Oh,
we need a pic with a banana for scale if you dont mind.
(Internationaly recognised unit of measure)
New speaker day is always a good day.
Congrats Martin.
Oh,
we need a pic with a banana for scale if you dont mind.
(Internationaly recognised unit of measure)
:lol:
Ali Tait
10-12-2024, 22:35
Looking good mate, hope they are hitting the spot!
AJSki2fly
12-12-2024, 10:57
They look smaller in the pics. They are stupid big. This one is closer but still not like it is in reality:
https://i.ibb.co/GWFj1gj/sp2.jpg (https://ibb.co/y6VJMLJ)
In reality that distance between them is only one and a half of the baffle width but it looks in the pic like you could fit three more in between them.
Great job Martin, bet they sound good. Bet they shift a lot of air.
Try some Hudson isolation them https://hudsonhifi.com/collections/sound-isolation/products/bigfoot, I use them under the WBs and I told Alan(Firebottle) and he has a set now, we both agree they seem to have the effect of more detailed bass and better mids. They are cheap as chips compared to some up there isolation systems
Martins gone quiet.......buyers remorse?:lol:
Martins gone quiet.......buyers remorse?:lol:
lol just not had the chance to use them since Monday - day off tomorrow so going to have a good, long session and then I'll report.
From what listening I have done they seem to be superb - but I'd like a bit longer before I'll commit to that.
Well that was a pretty enjoyable afternoon of listening to music.
Here's the albums I listened to:
Mica Paris - 'So Good'
Don Henley - 'Best Of'
Chris Isaac - 'Wicked Game'
AC/DC - 'Who Made Who?'
Boston - 'Boston'
Donald Fagan 'The Nightfly'
I suppose the first thing that anyone will notice about these speakers is that the bass is not overblown but there is some serious low frequency 'weight' to everything - nothing sounds toppy or bass-shy.
And they are smooth - smooth as silk. If you think using P.A drivers is automatically going to make a speaker sound like a dog rough Peavey stack, then think again! I think this is partly due to using such large drivers, they hardly move so there's very little distortion. A small bass driver can have 10% THD but you don't really hear that until it's not there.
The Chris Isaac album is not one of my faves but it's good for comparison since they always play the title track at shows. Anytime I hear it I'm always mentally transported to a hotel room somewhere. Don't usually listen to all of it but I did this time, it just sort of washed over me.
One thing I think I can say for certain is there's no nasties with this speaker. Nothing jars. Going from memory which is always dodgy, I don't think they quite deliver the same purity of tone in the bass that the outgoing Focals manage. But this was not a huge difference.
Mica Paris album is pretty typical 80s club soul fayre. Bass on this was excellent, just like in a club.
The Don Henley best of is heavily compressed like a lot of more recent compilation albums, so you can't crank it without it getting shouty. Lots of 80s synth on this, it can sound bad, but it didn't. Even at the end of 'Sunset Grill' where a load of synths build to a loud climax and it can get shrill, it was all smooth and well laid out.
I expected AC/DC to sound awesome, but in fact it was just a little bit flat. I will have to try this again with my original release of 'Back In Black' which was always devastating on the Focals. Maybe tomorrow.
Now with the Boston album we were cooking on gas. Seems like this music was made to be listened to on speakers like this. Absolutely tremendous, I couldn't fault it at all.
Finishing off with the Nightfly - I listened to this on Monday night but with it being late and having played loud music all day thought I'd give the neighbours a break so I didn't crank it up. Today I did and it was just astonishing. Of course it's a textbook recording which is why pros use it to test that they have FOH PA systems properly calibrated. It should sound sweet and tonally balanced, and it did.
I think really that I confirmed a lot of my first impressions, which was that the speakers have very low distortion and are balanced maybe slightly to the soft side compared to the Focals. Probably not a surprise to anyone familiar with Focals.
I went with this design as my favourite speakers for long term enjoyment have always been the big three-ways from the late 1970s, early 1980s. Most of them have these same qualities of impressive bass weight allied to a balance that is easy to listen to over a long period, rather than being cutting edge in terms of resolution but wears you out after a couple of albums.
I think I got that, but I also got a lot more.
More thoughts to follow tomorrow.
Pigmy Pony
13-12-2024, 18:41
Glad it's all sounding good, and look forward to more impressions tomorrow when you play some decent albums :ner: Only kidding, some of them are ok, but you know you have to include your reference recording tomorrow (Brothers in Arms ofc).
Played that one last Monday - sounds good but then it's got to be a pretty bad set up if it doesn't. :)
Nice write up Martin.
Similar experience with bass here in my travels.
a big percentage of listening experience bass is with it being either overblown, EQ’d to be popular or designed to blow the bloody doors off.
All of the above isn’t accurate, (whatever that is) and if you listen often enough you get annoyed when you know it’s being tampered with.
Remasters can GTF.
A good system synergy lets you know when bass is there, as in when it’s been mastered in.
Its the visual eye/ear thing maybe?
You’d expect big cabinets to kick out low end like a pair of Wharfedale E90’s hard against the back wall, which is cool, but not always.
Had the same thing with the Eddingdales when I first got them, didn’t sound like what I heard with Toppsy’s travelling pair he took to shows.
Put on some Massive Attack or Portishead when they are run in,
my Wharfedales took nearly six months before they really sung.
Kept thinking great, sounds good.
Then they got better. And better.
it’s a process.
Let time take it’s time, they are still fresh out the packet.
They’ll get there.
:thumbsup:
Thanks for the early listening impressions. Don’t think you can go wrong with a nice large speaker if well designed.
One of the earliest pieces of advice I had about speakers was a good bigun will always beat a good little one!
Nice write up Martin.
Similar experience with bass here in my travels.
a big percentage of listening experience bass is with it being either overblown, EQ’d to be popular or designed to blow the bloody doors off.
All of the above isn’t accurate, (whatever that is) and if you listen often enough you get annoyed when you know it’s being tampered with.
Remasters can GTF.
A good system synergy lets you know when bass is there, as in when it’s been mastered in.
Its the visual eye/ear thing maybe?
You’d expect big cabinets to kick out low end like a pair of Wharfedale E90’s hard against the back wall, which is cool, but not always.
Had the same thing with the Eddingdales when I first got them, didn’t sound like what I heard with Toppsy’s travelling pair he took to shows.
Put on some Massive Attack or Portishead when they are run in,
my Wharfedales took nearly six months before they really sung.
Kept thinking great, sounds good.
Then they got better. And better.
it’s a process.
Let time take it’s time, they are still fresh out the packet.
They’ll get there.
:thumbsup:
Bass isn't lacking, they will play the fundamental of the low note on a 5 string bass with no problem, that's 31Hz or thereabouts. But because my room is long (29') the main mode is down in the 20s. So it doesn't enhance any bass notes, there's no 'stunt bass'.
Think I have a Massive Attack album, I'll have to dig that out. Got no Portishead though, never was keen on them.
Someone at that do I went to gave me a bastard of a cold so didn't do anymore listening until Sunday.
Tried 'em with a bit of Korn. Now that does also sound epic on the Focals, but with these - well I think I found their party trick. I mean it was just stupid.
I know what you're thinking and I was thinking that too. Are these just a rocker's speaker? What about the subtlety? The delicacy?
So thought I'd put on some Tull - 'Songs From The Wood' as that has a lot of acoustic instruments on. It was with some trepidation I cued it up.
Well I needn't have worried, it sounded magical. Like there was nothing, no device producing the sound at all, just the sound.
Later a pal came round, likes his music, plays guitar in a band. He like ZZ Top so I put on 'Tejas' for him. As first song kicked in I raised the level just a little bit to the 'bite point'.
His eyes widened up exactly like that German bloke at the end of 'Kelly's Heroes' when they tell him about the gold.
Upshot of that is he's borrowed some speakers and an amp off me and went off to set up a system.
I don't know if it is me burning in or the speakers but they do now sound pretty much exactly how I expected/hoped they'd sound.
Sweet, no edge, and totally effortless low frequencies and dynamic swings.
I'm still undecided if they are just a little soft in the upper mids, like with snares and ride cymbals and that. That would contribute to the smooth, relaxed nature I suppose.
I'll have to do some more listening regarding that as if it's there, it's subtle.
:yesbruv:
They look the bollocks and it's always good to see when someone's main living area is designed around their sound system :)
Time to change the sig again Martin.
:yesbruv:
They look the bollocks and it's always good to see when someone's main living area is designed around their sound system :)
Time to change the sig again Martin.
Oh yeah, forgot about that. I suppose they're probably staying.
AJSki2fly
20-12-2024, 15:51
Someone at that do I went to gave me a bastard of a cold so didn't do anymore listening until Sunday.
Tried 'em with a bit of Korn. Now that does also sound epic on the Focals, but with these - well I think I found their party trick. I mean it was just stupid.
I know what you're thinking and I was thinking that too. Are these just a rocker's speaker? What about the subtlety? The delicacy?
So thought I'd put on some Tull - 'Songs From The Wood' as that has a lot of acoustic instruments on. It was with some trepidation I cued it up.
Well I needn't have worried, it sounded magical. Like there was nothing, no device producing the sound at all, just the sound.
Later a pal came round, likes his music, plays guitar in a band. He like ZZ Top so I put on 'Tejas' for him. As first song kicked in I raised the level just a little bit to the 'bite point'.
His eyes widened up exactly like that German bloke at the end of 'Kelly's Heroes' when they tell him about the gold.
Upshot of that is he's borrowed some speakers and an amp off me and went off to set up a system.
I don't know if it is me burning in or the speakers but they do now sound pretty much exactly how I expected/hoped they'd sound.
Sweet, no edge, and totally effortless low frequencies and dynamic swings.
I'm still undecided if they are just a little soft in the upper mids, like with snares and ride cymbals and that. That would contribute to the smooth, relaxed nature I suppose.
I'll have to do some more listening regarding that as if it's there, it's subtle.
Sounds like you have hit the sweet spot[emoji846]
I go with the philosophy of using just enough 'dedicated' treatment to fix any audible problems. As the room is large - 29 x 11 x 9.5 feet bass boom isn't an issue as the main mode is below what the speakers can output, but high frequency bounce still needs dealing with.
I'll start with the door.
This corner is next to the listening seats so I stuck some of this acoustic foam up as it's quite a lively corner and bounces high frequencies about. Since I need access I can't put anything else here. The tiles are from Studio Spares and are cheap, but do the job.
https://i.ibb.co/P4bxz6Z/door.jpg (https://ibb.co/5vzTxRW)
Corner on the other side, again this was a bit lively hence the roll of insulation.
The bubble wrap is just there as it's a convenient spot to put it, but it's probably quite absorbent too so it can't hurt:
https://i.ibb.co/vLCsC9x/corner-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/QY7870F)
A.V system
https://i.ibb.co/ZYTbFQB/av.jpg (https://ibb.co/JykSGYv)
This operates across the width of the room with some Beovox MC120.2 speakers
From the top:
Onkyo universal disc player - you got DVD, BD, CD, HDCD, DVD-A and SACD playback with this unit. They don't make them anymore
Pioneer DVD 565-A which is now just a back up
Parasound C/DP 1000 CD player
Technics SH8058 EQ
XTZ A1000D3 integrated amplifer, this has a DAC in it, sound goes in from TV via optical Coax.
https://i.ibb.co/hyvwntb/speek.jpg (https://ibb.co/9NjSfC6)
One of the speakers for the main system - Speaker choice I find is very personal, I dislike a lot of speakers and others dislike my choices too. I did audition some serious cutting edge speakers like the Kii3 but in the end decided to go 'old school' with a big banger.
The acoustic panels you see here - I can't really tell if they do anything but I had them left over. IN theory they should cancel the HF reflections off the brick wall, with the speaker being so close.
Main corner where it all happens - main system electronics - TEAC, Sony, Krell plus the LP and CD storage.
https://i.ibb.co/GJsRLK9/corner-2.jpg (https://ibb.co/0XBrSgK)
For acoustic purposes it helps to have a big stuffed bookcase like this in the corner as it scatters and damps high frequency reflections. My one remaining turntable is mothballed so the LPs are not used, bought most of them again on CD.
Opposite corner, again with a stuffed full bookcase albeit smaller. Can't hurt.
https://i.ibb.co/qk0s8hR/corner-3.jpg (https://ibb.co/zG8RgCS)
And back round again to by the door where I've got some spare kit stored (there's lots more in my upstairs 'showroom' lol
https://i.ibb.co/R3VBj86/spare-kit.jpg (https://ibb.co/zX076d2)
From top to bottom:
Topping E30 DAC (the original)
Soncoz SGD-1 DAC
Linn LK100 power amp
Marantz CD54 CD player (1984)
Nelson Pass DCB-1 Pre amp
Philips 'Black Tulip' pre-amp
NAD C320BEE integrated amp
Denon PMA250 SE UK integrated amp
Sony SCD XB790QS CD/SACD player
Samsung BD player
Panasonic DVD Player
Philips 'Black Tulip' power amp.
Over almost 40 years and owning and auditioning a lot of equipment I've pretty much sorted out what works for me, so here is my 'philosophy':
By far the most important thing is the loudspeakers and the room acoustics. With a digital source - any digital source even a smartphone - I'd say this is 95% of the sound quality right there.
In particular getting enough damping in the room to stop too much high frequency bouncing about. I find that very fatiguing. Of course you don't want to kill the place dead.
Most of that can be achieved with normal furnishings and then after that treat any still audible problems that you notice. Not rocket science and you don't need to spend a fortune - you aren't making a professional mastering suite (unless you are).
So spend almost all the money on speakers - and carpet, curtains, furniture, bookshelves and so on.
For source I no longer bother with vinyl as it's expensive and inconsistent - although when it's good enough I don't really have any issues with it, I just don't see the point when we have something cheaper and better instead.
Cables - yes mine are quite expensive even though I'm not a believer. I've done my share of swapping the damn things and straining for hear the differences. No longer spend time on that game.
Buy something quality that's not going to fall apart in your hands after a few plugs and unplugs, fit and forget, never think about them again. Just make sure speaker cable is thick enough to avoid any losses due to raised impedance. - that's my philosophy there.
Power - I don't use any power conditioners, regenerators, and all the power cables are just whatever was lying about when I hooked up. I really don't think there is any problem to be solved with such devices, unless you have pops and clicks from the fridge - or whatever -starting up. At least in the UK anyway there's nothing wrong with the mains power and any noise or distortion is removed in the transfer from AC to DC in the equipment's power supply.
Spend the money on better speakers and room instead! No matter what speakers you have there's always something better to save up for. I suppose if you really have have maxed out on the things that matter then it's somewhere else to go, but I'd still advise against it.
The danger of constantly swapping and comparing and upgrading is you forget to just listen to the music - which was the whole original point of the exercise. You can actually ruin that pleasure for yourself by never being able to get out of 'analysis mode.' Ask me how I know!
Anyway, there is my two cents for the day.
Absolutely agree - and I completely share your philosophy Martin - contrary to what we were always "told" by the hi-fi press (admittedly when vinyl was still the main serious format) "source first" doesn't bear any fruit with today's digital front ends. I can barely hear differences between digital sources, and mostly struggle with amps as long as they have enough welly to drive what you have, but speakers can be "night and day" better or worse with everything else being equal. I think once you know what you like, it's fairly simple to find a system that gives you what you want so you can just concentrate on the music. And i have very little belief in cables making much difference if at all, particularly mains cables, and very little time for any other "snake oil" products.
Pigmy Pony
11-01-2025, 14:02
Yeah, it's a philosophy that makes perfect sense to me too, though if you were to apply for a job at a hifi shop I'd keep much of it to myself ;) Mind you, you've enough gear there to open your own shop.
I look forward to hearing your new speakers, just waiting for your living room to warm up :) I suppose I could bring a puffa jacket but it would probably mess with the acoustics.
Absolutely agree - and I completely share your philosophy Martin - contrary to what we were always "told" by the hi-fi press (admittedly when vinyl was still the main serious format) "source first" doesn't bear any fruit with today's digital front ends. I can barely hear differences between digital sources, and mostly struggle with amps as long as they have enough welly to drive what you have, but speakers can be "night and day" better or worse with everything else being equal. I think once you know what you like, it's fairly simple to find a system that gives you what you want so you can just concentrate on the music. And i have very little belief in cables making much difference if at all, particularly mains cables, and very little time for any other "snake oil" products.
I've noticed at the NEBO meets that we start with a system and at some point stuff starts getting swapped in and out. Sometimes, like you say, the amp makes a difference if it doesn't have the welly (the rooms for these meets tend to be quite large too) and the speakers always make a difference - from 'well that's different' to 'not even in the same ballpark'.
But all the other stuff - well if you weren't watching it get swapped you wouldn't even know. Even going from digital to vinyl isn't much difference although admittedly the turntables that get brought along are always of high quality.
Yeah, it's a philosophy that makes perfect sense to me too, though if you were to apply for a job at a hifi shop I'd keep much of it to myself ;) Mind you, you've enough gear there to open your own shop.
I look forward to hearing your new speakers, just waiting for your living room to warm up :) I suppose I could bring a puffa jacket but it would probably mess with the acoustics.
You might need more than the puffa jacket...right now I'm wearing military-issue thermals, sweatshirt, fleece, and one of those padded lumberjack shirts over the top of all that.
Great Post Martin!
I've waited some time to reply to this thread as I wanted to wait until your new speakers had run-in and that you had had time to get to know them. Clearly they have, and you are more than pleased with the results (a give away was the fact you were posting the titles of the CDs being played). This is good news; especially as they may be your final speakers.
You are fortunate in having such a large listening/living room. Mine is of roughly similar size but is only 25' long, 8' high and 11' wide (where the speakers are located) widening out to 15' at my listening position. Unfortunately there are large windows and a patio sliding door at the respective ends of the room. Given the arrangement of doors into the hallway and into the kitchen, there is only one place I can place the speakers. The end nearest the speakers is acoustical 'live', whereas at the listening end it is acoustically 'dead'; which as far as I can tell is the best way it should be. I haven’t bothered with any obvious acoustic treatment, but there bookshelves, LP and CD storage cases and soft furnishings to break up and absorb the indirect sound.
Even so, I envy the size of your room. Well done!
Great Post Martin!
I've waited some time to reply to this thread as I wanted to wait until your new speakers had run-in and that you had had time to get to know them. Clearly they have, and you are more than pleased with the results (a give away was the fact you were posting the titles of the CDs being played). This is good news; especially as they may be your final speakers.
You are fortunate in having such a large listening/living room. Mine is of roughly similar size but is only 25' long, 8' high and 11' wide (where the speakers are located) widening out to 15' at my listening position. Unfortunately there are large windows and a patio sliding door at the respective ends of the room. Given the arrangement of doors into the hallway and into the kitchen, there is only one place I can place the speakers. The end nearest the speakers is acoustical 'live', whereas at the listening end it is acoustically 'dead'; which as far as I can tell is the best way it should be. I haven’t bothered with any obvious acoustic treatment, but there bookshelves, LP and CD storage cases and soft furnishings to break up and absorb the indirect sound.
Even so, I envy the size of your room. Well done!
I've really not had that much listening time with the speakers, partly due to work and then this cold weather hasn't helped. At some point I'll write a full separate review of them but I like to do that after a few hundred hours when I think if there's any problems I will certainly have noticed them.
Regarding acoustics I've read that 'Live end - dead end' is now outmoded but I'm not really sure why. Personally I think if it works, then it works. I have a few extra things I did not mention like thick floor to ceiling curtains and thick rug on top of the carpet right in front of the speakers to damp down floor bounce - although I also read a theory that if you eliminate floor bounce entirely it sounds unnatural. So who knows?
With the new speakers I have used a bit of PEQ to lift the top end, makes me wonder if I have not damped the room down to suit the Focals and it is too much for the slightly 'darker' sounding new speakers. But could just be they don't have as wide a dispersion as the Focal, and I mostly listen off axis.
It's a minefield really so I just tweak it by ear. Happily no bass issues as they are tough to sort passively.
Yes, floor to ceiling curtains are a help, as is carpet, or at the very least a thick rug in front of the speakers.
From what you say I may have eliminated 'floor bounce', but I don't think my system sound unnatural: I have had professional musicians listen to my system without complaint.
Since my speakers do not produce much below 40Hz, thought what they do produce is very clean, I shouldn't really worry about the size of my room.
Looking forward to reading a full review of your speakers. :)
Pigmy Pony
19-01-2025, 09:02
Had a pleasant afternoon yesterday at Macca's house. His new speakers are really something special - to my ears they do everything right and nothing wrong. "Effortless" is the word that comes to mind. Course I could never fit them into my living room, but at Martin's they work a treat. Quality of finish is first rate too.
Not much of a review, but I will add this: the bass units are like bin lids :)
Pleasure to have you here as always Steve, no mention of the chocolate biscuits though...
Always good to have a second opinion just as some sort of sanity check.
I listened to that Tracy Chapman again after you left, that really does sound stupid good.
Pigmy Pony
19-01-2025, 13:51
I have a few of Tracy Chapman's, they're all good but I think the debut that you got is the best. I see you've wasted no time getting stuck into the rest :)
Oh yes, the chocolate biscuits! None of yer Aldi pretend McVities either.
There's some bass on that Gorillaz album. Think that's the first time I actually seen the woofers moving - barely perceptibly though.
After much trial and tribulation finally got the TV system up and running again with this NAD amp and a Topping E30 DAC:
https://i.ibb.co/v4dFsvZ3/20250501-121602.jpg (https://ibb.co/KxsPNzF2)
Spent a couple of hours on this the other day and just could not get sound out of it. Messed about with the DAC, checked connections a dozen times. Gave up.
Suddenly occurred to me today that some years back I'd taken the links out of the NAD so to use it as a power amp only. Now where did I put the links? Not in the usual place I would put them of course. Finally found them after a fingertip search and stuck them in, and was rewarded with glorious sound.
Now just need to think of a way to connect the subwoofer.
Ali Tait
01-05-2025, 11:28
Does it have a tape loop?
Does it have a tape loop?
Yes it does but won't it be fixed output?
Ali Tait
01-05-2025, 12:14
No vol pot on the sub?
No vol pot on the sub?
Yes but that's a set and forget, I need a solution where the sub volume goes up and down with level going to the main speakers.
Ali Tait
01-05-2025, 12:28
You'll need some Y connectors then, and use short rca links to link out the pre/power sections on the amp, other set in the Y can go to the sub, assuming it only has line level inputs?
You'll need some Y connectors then, and use short rca links to link out the pre/power sections on the amp, other set in the Y can go to the sub, assuming it only has line level inputs?
It has high level connections too so that's an option, it's just more awkward. It's already like spaghetti behind the rack.
At least I'm not short of speaker cables to do it with!
You'll need some Y connectors then, and use short rca links to link out the pre/power sections on the amp, other set in the Y can go to the sub, assuming it only has line level inputs?
It has high level connections too so that's an option, it's just more awkward. It's already like spaghetti behind the rack.
At least I'm not short of speaker cables to do it with!
Ali Tait
01-05-2025, 12:48
Good to have the choice at least. :-)
After a few days listening to internet radio on the TV system I decided to fire up the 'big system' this afternoon.
Oh my god! What an upgrade! It doesn't take me long to get used to great sound quality before I take it for granted and I suspect that's true of everyone, but just three days listening to a 'lesser' system and the big one now sounds astonishing again.
Maybe need to upgrade the TV system...
No DOWNGRADE the TV system for an even bigger contrast!
:)
Pigmy Pony
07-05-2025, 17:46
After a few days listening to internet radio on the TV system I decided to fire up the 'big system' this afternoon.
Oh my god! What an upgrade! It doesn't take me long to get used to great sound quality before I take it for granted and I suspect that's true of everyone, but just three days listening to a 'lesser' system and the big one now sounds astonishing again.
Maybe need to upgrade the TV system...
Is that the only way you can internet radio at your house? Get summat you can plug in to the big stereo, an Echo Dot or something. Only be a tenner or so off the Ebay. I might even have a spare one knocking about, I'll bring it for you to try out next month when we do the NW Audio show thing.
Is that the only way you can internet radio at your house? .
Yes it is. Can't seem to get it on my 1981 Technics tuner for some reason.
Face it. The way forward is really 4 JBL 4367.
Two per channel. One upside down on top of the other. Discussed this with Grok a while back.
AI certified awesome.
Human certified too much friggin' money.
Shame.
Face it. The way forward is really 4 JBL 4367.
Two per channel. One upside down on top of the other. Discussed this with Grok a while back.
AI certified awesome.
Human certified too much friggin' money.
Shame.
Have you had a go on them? The 4365 - pretty much the same speaker - is beyond a joke with just two of them. But, pushing the envelope has its merits.:D
Actually I think you'd like what I have now quite a lot.
The 4367 is the only JBL speaker I really, really like. Heard some years ago but heard more than once.
Bohne make some awesome speakers based on 15 and 18 inch JBL woofers. One of my fave setups ever was a big Bohne system at Munich.
Face it. The way forward is really 4 JBL 4367.
Two per channel. One upside down on top of the other. Discussed this with Grok a while back.
AI certified awesome.
Human certified too much friggin' money.
Shame.
No doubt said in jest, but stacking speakers never sounds good; even if you stack them tweeter to tweeter. And even if they are JBLs. ;)
No doubt said in jest, but stacking speakers never sounds good; even if you stack them tweeter to tweeter. And even if they are JBLs. ;)Said in jest with undertones of 'what if?".
I'd be really interested to hear that config, though. A dedicated frame to hold them might help out.
I'm not really convinced it couldn't be made to work well.
I don't know if you have any history with going to dance clubs, Barry, but many use huge stacks to superb effect with massive chest thumping bass output and surprisingly high fidelity in some cases.
Pigmy Pony
08-05-2025, 19:10
Said in jest with undertones of 'what if?".
I'd be really interested to hear that config, though. A dedicated frame to hold them might help out.
I'm not really convinced it couldn't be made to work well.
I don't know if you have any history with going to dance clubs, Barry, but many use huge stacks to superb effect with massive chest thumping bass output and surprisingly high fidelity in some cases.
This is something I have found too, though I'd always assumed it was the drugs :)
Oh I'm sure stacked speakers are used in dance clubs, but there fidelity is not a top priority. If something with some mid to treble content is played, such as vocals, it is hard to determine where the singers mouth is. But then I suppose spatial imaging and placement is unimportant in these venues.
"Chest thumping bass" is absolutely of no interest to me - I use Quad 57 ESLs; which BTW, I have heard stacked: obviously a little more bass, but 'beaming' in the vertical plane was exacerbated. Besides they took up much to much space!
This is something I have found too, though I'd always assumed it was the drugs :)The Lakota in Bristol was a dive of mine for many years. I literally went there for that sound system and then on to some of the reggae based blues clubs with ace bass systems and strong smells of something I could never identify;)
The things those systems could do domestic systems can't even get 30% close to in some parameters.
Let's qualify that with average domestic systems.
But even at Munich 99% of them can't do the colossal scale and bass of the Lakota dynamic/horn stack at its finest time.
Tweaked the speaker positioning about a bit to try to improve the sound on this TV system. Does seem to be better now.
Don't think I'll bother hooking up the sub as there's some pretty meaty bass coming off the B&O speakers as it is.
https://i.ibb.co/606yPJvJ/20250509-151043.jpg (https://ibb.co/7t7SWNgN)
Speakers either side of the telly makes a big impact when watching stuff.
:thumbsup:
You said you'd changed things in the telly system?
Did you move em either side of the telly, bring them closer together or...?
Great memories of getting my first Nicam VHS player from my local Stepek?
and reading an article on Nicam by Alvin Gold in Hifi News about it being the next big thing.
I enjoy memories like that.
very very cool.
:)
Speakers either side of the telly makes a big impact when watching stuff.
:thumbsup:
You said you'd changed things in the telly system?
Did you move em either side of the telly, bring them closer together or...?
Great memories of getting my first Nicam VHS player from my local Stepek?
and reading an article on Nicam by Alvin Gold in Hifi News about it being the next big thing.
I enjoy memories like that.
very very cool.
:)
I loved NICAM - I had an Akai NICAM VCR - seriously still think that was the best TV sound I ever had.
Only thing I did to the speakers was move them forward so they stick out a bit in front of the screen instead of being level with it, and angle them straight ahead. Oh and I took the grilles off.
Sounds a bit clearer and the sweet spot is a bit wider now. Not sure why there's so much bass, maybe it's due to the enclosed area between the back of the screen and the wall behind, I don't know, but it sounds like the sub is hooked up even though it isn't.
hornucopia
13-08-2025, 09:29
Had a huge Philips (?) projector bought in furniture auction, a floor mounted box with 3 huge lenses beaming at a huge screen, plus the speakers were aimed at the screen to bounce back at you.(screen was concave)
Early 80s I think. Dedicated room was essential!
Recall watching Live Aid on it.
I loved NICAM - I had an Akai NICAM VCR - seriously still think that was the best TV sound I ever had.
Only thing I did to the speakers was move them forward so they stick out a bit in front of the screen instead of being level with it, and angle them straight ahead. Oh and I took the grilles off.
Sounds a bit clearer and the sweet spot is a bit wider now. Not sure why there's so much bass, maybe it's due to the enclosed area between the back of the screen and the wall behind, I don't know, but it sounds like the sub is hooked up even though it isn't.
Think theres a Physics thing (or was it a Jimmy Hughes thing?) with not having the speakers in the same plane as your telly, as it can knock the sound off?
Speaker baffle diffusion and all that stuff I think?
.. produces A1 Flipchart with graphs...
Definately pays off to mess around with your preconceptions sometimes :)
Think theres a Physics thing (or was it a Jimmy Hughes thing?) with not having the speakers in the same plane as your telly, as it can knock the sound off?
Speaker baffle diffusion and all that stuff I think?
.. produces A1 Flipchart with graphs...
Definately pays off to mess around with your preconceptions sometimes :)
seems to me to be a good idea to have the speaker at least slightly ahead of the plane of the screen, to lessen any reflected sound.
Also I think the slightly fruity bass response might be due to baffle step correction - right hand speaker is enclosed on three sides and the other on 2 sides so sort of semi- soffit mounting.
The right speaker does appear to have slightly more bass.
I'm speculating of course. But I haven't felt the need to hook up the subwoofer.
One less box is never a bad thing.
Can't believe this.
My Krell amp needs cable with spade connectors but my one cable that has them has a broken banana plug at the other end.
It went at NEBO but I think it had been dodgy for a while as it explains a very occasional brief 'phasey' effect I was getting which I thought was my hearing.
No problem as I have other power amps so thought I'd put in a Linn LK100 which should have no problems driving the Troels speakers. That only has banana plug connection but I have my trusty 79 strand cable with those.
So I look for it. Everywhere. Cannot find it. I don't think I lent it out, a mate did borrow some speakers last year but I don't recall him taking cable too and sure I've seen it since anyway.
I also have some NVA cable with bananas each end, and can I find the that? Can I bollocks.
Okay I have a Philips power amp I can put in, but that only takes very thin unterminated wire. No problem, got some of that. Can I find it? You know the answer.
I don't want to buy more speaker cable I must have at least ten sets if you count the missing ones.
I might have to use the power section of an HK930 receiver as at least that has normal modern speaker connections (updated from the originals).
Hifi Gremlins spooking you?
Pigmy Pony
13-10-2025, 07:49
Is your chunky cable with the broken-off banana plug not repairable? The plugs on my speaker wire are just mechanically fixed with grub screws, no solder. Worked fine for some years now. Or is the cable just too thick?
It might be repairable but not by me.
Hey Martin, do you still have 2 Krell amps?
I have three but one is out on loan.
Ali Tait
13-10-2025, 15:38
It might be repairable but not by me.
Post it to me mate, I'll sort it.
And in the unlikely event that Ali can't repair it, send it to me and I'll have a go.
Thanks lads but don't worry about it I can get some new cables for the price of the postage.
Got it sorted now Martin?
Got it sorted now Martin?
No :doh:
I have been away all week only got back yesterday afternoon. I will try and jury rig something tomorrow. Don't know where today has gone.
Finally got it sorted. Found the cable with the banana plugs, hooked up a Linn LK100 amp.
Tested the amp first on sacrificial speakers as it's not been used in years and ran it for a couple of hours. It's fine thankfully.
According to the spec it's 50 watt into 8 ohm and 80 into 4 so it should drive the speakers okay since at the lowest impedance is still 4.6 ohm (down at 32 Hz).
What's in the box?
https://i.postimg.cc/0NNp7HPC/20251021-131929.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cvVgShKK)
Pigmy Pony
21-10-2025, 14:19
What's in the box?
https://i.postimg.cc/0NNp7HPC/20251021-131929.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cvVgShKK)
Another box to keep all your spare cables in. Or a job lot of Frank Sinatra CDs :) Or your Krell's power lead.
A load of cables - courtesy of Roy.
https://i.postimg.cc/7YS3rDdK/20251021-132138.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SJN2W0y9)
Visitors have prevented me trying them out this afternoon though.
Ended up buying some new speaker cables with spade connectors on one end. £35 but what are you going to do?
Only 14 AWG - I like to go with 12 just to be sure - but 14 should be sufficient for a 10 foot run.
Like a divot I forgot to change the little box that says how many you want so package arrived with one cable, so had to go back and order another, adding another week's delay.
Going for a walk then will put the system back together, been almost a month without!
What's in the box?
https://i.postimg.cc/0NNp7HPC/20251021-131929.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cvVgShKK)
https://eu-images.contentstack.com/v3/assets/bltcd74acc1d0a99f3a/blt44e25626a7a19593/6762b7321148f02742856460/se7en.png.webp
https://eu-images.contentstack.com/v3/assets/bltcd74acc1d0a99f3a/blt44e25626a7a19593/6762b7321148f02742856460/se7en.png.webp
Dyes his hair you know.
Well, success! Main system back working again, no more slumming it with the TV system.
None of those cables I sent any use Martin?
None of those cables I sent any use Martin?
No, I needed spade connectors for the Krell. Only thing it takes.
Bit redundant then weren’t they I guess, sorry.
Bit redundant then weren’t they I guess, sorry.
No worries they'll surely come in useful at some point.
was wondering why there was no bass with these new speaker cables. Okay they're a lot thinner than the old ones but shouldn't make any difference over just ten foot.
Speaker out of phase? Checked my connections all seem okay. Added a bass shelf with PEQ 1.0 dB from 20 to 100 Hz. Sort of better, but still no. Increased it to 1.5, still no.
Today, even though I sit off axis it occurred to me that the balance between the speakers was not right. Moved on axis it's clear that it's way off. Has to be out of phase or something is broken.
Checked all connections again. Sure enough one speaker is connected out of phase even though I'd checked it yesterday and deemed it okay.
The only way to tell with these cables is to look at which one has the tiny writing on it. I'd used a twist of gaffer tape to indicate the cable assigned to positive, but despite that I'd still managed to connect one wrong :doh:
Should know by now not to trust myself to check properly the first time. Swapped it round and bass is back even without the PEQ but I've left the bass boost in for now although reduced it to 1dB.
Ali Tait
02-11-2025, 15:26
Good you found it mate. It's when you don't that it really bakes your noodle. I remember years ago chasing a hum for weeks that was driving me batshit. I was using a WD Pre 3 at the time and had completely forgotten that it was prone to pick up hum in proximity to other gear. Once I moved it all was well. Felt like a right plank, glad it was sorted though. :-)
Rare that 21st century equipment has a look I like but this new Onkyo pre-power is quite tasty.
https://i.ibb.co/TD6VZydT/Onkyo-ICON-Series-Aufmacher-High-End-2025.jpg (https://ibb.co/1Y1D3cjn)
Pigmy Pony
14-11-2025, 23:05
Yeah I like that. Looks expensive though. What you doing posting Onkyo pictures? I thought you were going out getting pissed.
Yeah I like that. Looks expensive though. What you doing posting Onkyo pictures? I thought you were going out getting pissed.
I was back home by 2130 - it was just a meal although some of the girls did go on to a karaoke bar afterwards but I couldn't really cope with that plus had the chance of a lift home - otherwise it was a 3 mile walk in this weather.
The Onkyo's are £2800 for the pair which isn't that bad in the general scheme of things, maybe knock ten percent off that if you were buying both at once.
Pigmy Pony
15-11-2025, 08:50
I was back home by 2130 - it was just a meal although some of the girls did go on to a karaoke bar afterwards but I couldn't really cope with that plus had the chance of a lift home - otherwise it was a 3 mile walk in this weather.
The Onkyo's are £2800 for the pair which isn't that bad in the general scheme of things, maybe knock ten percent off that if you were buying both at once.
Not a bad price at all considering what you're getting, just 800 quid more than your CDT cost for all of that. 150wpc too, which should be enough for most folk.
If I were amp shopping I'd look into that, but I've sacked that idea off for now - I decided I'm happy with the one I've got.
I'm afraid power meters and italic script lettering make it a no-no for me. :(
Pigmy Pony
15-11-2025, 10:06
Not a fan of Italic script either. But VU meters, oh yes :) I know they have no useful function really, and in my case they wouldn't even be in my line of sight, but I'd still have 'em.
But looking at ASR, there is some confusion over the true power output of these, also the absence of Dirac ART (no idea what that is) seems to be a deal-breaker for some. I suppose a home demo to see how they work with your speakers in your room would be the way to go.
Although they appear to be a long-running and respected brand, the name has always put me off - somewhere between honk and donkey. I'd need to train my brain to get over that.
Not a bad price at all considering what you're getting, just 800 quid more than your CDT cost for all of that. 150wpc too, which should be enough for most folk.
If I were amp shopping I'd look into that, but I've sacked that idea off for now - I decided I'm happy with the one I've got.
Nothing wrong with that amp you have. Looks good and has loads of clean power.
Pigmy Pony
15-11-2025, 11:18
Nothing wrong with that amp you have. Looks good and has loads of clean power.
Anita said the exact same thing... oh wait, she was talking about her hoover.
But she did also say that she likes the look of the old amp - which is odd since she normally doesn't care what stuff looks like as long as it's black. Which it isn't. :scratch: I suspect she was just directing my spending decision towards a new telly. I'd already decided against the amp purchase, but I made it look like it was her idea, so I can save that 'credit', and redeem it at a later date :)
Anita said the exact same thing... oh wait, she was talking about her hoover
But she did also say that she likes the look of the old amp - which is odd since she normally doesn't care what stuff looks like as long as it's black. Which it isn't. :scratch: I suspect she was just directing my spending decision towards a new telly. I'd already decided against the amp purchase, but I made it look like it was her idea, so I can save that 'credit', and redeem it at a later date :)
Used to go on the Hifi purchase = handbag (etc) ratio
Never a bad strategy, as long as both Parties can negotiate. :lol:
Pigmy Pony
16-11-2025, 09:43
Used to go on the Hifi purchase = handbag (etc) ratio
Never a bad strategy, as long as both Parties can negotiate. :lol:
:D Does it make us terrible people? Probably.
:D Does it make us terrible people? Probably.
Not really. When I've been in relationships it's never even crossed my mind to consult my lady on anything I bought. I just bought it.
I only came across this idea when I started reading hi-fi forums.
I suppose if your finances are inextricably intertwined then there's not really any other option; I was always able to avoid that happening on the grounds that I can't deal with relationships where there's arguing, and money is supposedly the number one reason for couples to argue.
So you're better people than me even if it's not much of a benchmark.
Pigmy Pony
16-11-2025, 13:22
Not really. When I've been in relationships it's never even crossed my mind to consult my lady on anything I bought. I just bought it.
I only came across this idea when I started reading hi-fi forums.
I suppose if your finances are inextricably intertwined then there's not really any other option; I was always able to avoid that happening on the grounds that I can't deal with relationships where there's arguing, and money is supposedly the number one reason for couples to argue.
So you're better people than me even if it's not much of a benchmark.
It seems online dating is the way to go these days, and if I was in the market for a new bird I could put in my profile 'I'm better people than Macca', and wait for the replies to come in :)
In the olden days before mobile phones and tinternet, deals were done over the phone, and paid for with cash. So when I was putting together a custom motorbike in the late 80s, the wife pound conversion (about 50%) got me there so much quicker. Impossible nowadays with card payments, Paypal and other things that you cannot hide. Eeh, those were the days.
Well I've managed to go over a year without changing anything (except the speaker cable but that doesn't really count does it?)
With one pair of spare speakers sold and the other out on loan I've freed up space to put these a bit wider apart.
https://i.postimg.cc/5tkh4bVr/20260111-125036.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7C0sXvb1)
Pigmy Pony
13-03-2026, 14:48
Much better - now I wouldn't have to turn sideways and breathe in to get by :) Now if you were to sell the rest of your spare kit, you could buy next door and knock through. All the space you could ever need then.
Looking Big and bold, expect they can move some air when required.
Looking Big and bold, expect they can move some air when required.
They still take me by surprise especially with modern productions where they haven't skimped on the bass.
Of course there's a personal taste aspect but I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker.
They still take me by surprise especially with modern productions where they haven't skimped on the bass.
Of course there's a personal taste aspect but I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker.
I expect they reveal all sorts of bass information you were unaware of before in some recordings?
Firebottle
13-03-2026, 19:07
Excellent Martin, looks proper now.
I expect they reveal all sorts of bass information you were unaware of before in some recordings?
Yes. Albums I've had for 30 years in some cases, and not realised how much was missing!
Excellent Martin, looks proper now.
Better isn't it? Still only 5 foot between them but what can you do, I can't move the walls.
Hope you're doing well, maybe see you end of June at Cranage?
Idlewithnodrive
14-03-2026, 20:40
Well I've managed to go over a year without changing anything (except the speaker cable but that doesn't really count does it?)
With one pair of spare speakers sold and the other out on loan I've freed up space to put these a bit wider apart.
https://i.postimg.cc/5tkh4bVr/20260111-125036.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7C0sXvb1)
They look (and, I bet, sound) fabulous.
What are the speakers? Bass cone diameter?
Is that an FPB600 in the background?
You reckon they are better than JBL 4367 I know you like?
Do you know what the bass driver is i.e. who makes it?
What are the speakers? Bass cone diameter?
Is that an FPB600 in the background?
You reckon they are better than JBL 4367 I know you like?
Do you know what the bass driver is i.e. who makes it?
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Faital-3WC-15.htm
It is a Krell but it's a KSA50S
I think they're an easier listen than the JBL - but not had the JBL here in my room
Driver is a fifteen made by Faital, hence the name of the speakers.
No substitute for surface area when it comes to bass. Apart from excursion.
Best REL demos have three top model woofers on top of each other per channel.
A mid range Apogee Duetta is equivalent to 3 12 inch woofers per channel. But excursion is limited.
Bohne a few years ago did one of the best demos I have ever heard. 18 inch JBL subs with 15 inch JBL mains using Apogee like real ribbon mid/treble. Very little volume constraint and massive bass volume way beyond achievable planar magnetic levels.
Huge space required to accommodate such a system. Not as seamless as a full ribbon design and not as articulate as planar magnetic bass, but still absolutely kiss arse fantastic.
Given it's DIY, who actually made them, Martin?
Given it's DIY, who actually made them, Martin?
Jason from Arke Loudspeakers. Before he started that he built a lot of the TG designs for various people. I was the only one who had these although I think he did a couple of the smaller version with the 12'' bass and 6'' mids.
My first pick from the TG 'catalogue' was like 14 grand just for the parts so these were the cheaper option by some margin.
Excursion on the bass driver is a maximum of 1.5 centimetres but I think I've only actually seen them moving once. I think :)
That's good. It's about 6-7 mil for planar magnetic bass panels. Ones with single sided magnets.
Alsyvox IIRC manages 1 cm with double sided magnets I think Daniele Coen claims - the dude that makes them. He's a good chap spoken to him a few times.
Whatever. Enjoy those speakers!
Added my Sony DAT deck to the stack:
https://i.postimg.cc/HL4JDcb3/20260423-131826.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5Hy98t7F)
Looking good Martin, but I notice you have stacked them one atop another. You criticised me for doing the same with my stack of three items of equipment, saying they should be on separate shelves in a rack. Like you I assume the attached feet are capable of providing sufficient degree of isolation to mechanical vibration.
Looking good Martin, but I notice you have stacked them one atop another. You criticised me for doing the same with my stack of three items of equipment, saying they should be on separate shelves in a rack. Like you I assume the attached feet are capable of providing sufficient degree of isolation to mechanical vibration.
I don't recall but maybe it was in reference to heat dissipation? I'm not a believer in the whole 'vibration' thing.
Well my gear runs warm, but not excessively so.
I can't readily lay my hands on your quote - but it's not important.
Do you have many DAT tapes, Martin? I never tried the format, nor MiniDisc, but then I was late to the CD party too, although they did stick around longer!
Nor I - I have software on three storage formats: LP, CD and reel-to-reel tape. Used to have a lot of music on cassette, recorded to play in the car. I still have a couple of Nakamichi cassette tape decks.
Do you have many DAT tapes, Martin? I never tried the format, nor MiniDisc, but then I was late to the CD party too, although they did stick around longer!
No. I just have a pack of BASF blanks that I've never used. It's hard to find albums on DAT and they're expensive when they do show up.
I bought this deck years ago thought I would get round to seeing if it actually works.
Well it certainly looks nice in the setup and fun to have a play with! I think DAT was too expensive for the consumer market, although it was used in recording studios and then for data storage.
That's just reminded me of (Philips?) "DCC" - that didn't last long, either!
Well it certainly looks nice in the setup and fun to have a play with! I think DAT was too expensive for the consumer market, although it was used in recording studios and then for data storage.
That's just reminded me of (Philips?) "DCC" - that didn't last long, either!
And there was also Sony NT which no-one has ever heard of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NT_(cassette)
That’s awesome mate.
Great bit of gear DAT
(…see what I did there?) :)
Possibly the best digital recording physical medium.
Added my Sony DAT deck to the stack:
https://i.postimg.cc/HL4JDcb3/20260423-131826.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5Hy98t7F)
That’s awesome mate.
Great bit of gear DAT
(…see what I did there?) :)
Possibly the best digital recording physical medium.
Better than CD? Mechanically DAT uses tape in the same way as video tape: the tape is pulled out and uses a helical scan head to read/write, and thus suffers the same vulnerability to stretching and oxide shedding as any other magnetic tape.
I have a CD recorder and a bunch of blank CD-RW discs, but I have never used it. Perhaps I should give a try and make up CDs for the car.
It’s more “analogue” :)
Oh dear! :lol:
Pigmy Pony
26-04-2026, 15:27
Better than CD? Mechanically DAT uses tape in the same way as video tape: the tape is pulled out and uses a helical scan head to read/write, and thus suffers the same vulnerability to stretching and oxide shedding as any other magnetic tape.
I have a CD recorder and a bunch of blank CD-RW discs, but I have never used it. Perhaps I should give a try and make up CDs for the car.
I read up a bit on DAT the other days, and apparently DAT tapes do have shedding issues and can degrade after 20 years or so, depending on storage conditions, whereas CDs have a life expectancy of about 100 years. Also it said that DAT machines often would chew up the tapes. So I would say music recorded onto CD has a better chance, though they too have a shorter life than ready-made ones.
Machine does look cool though.
Nice that you have a CD player in the car (as do we), manufacturers seemed to have ditched the format in favour of whatever you can send from your phone it seems. I don't know how I'll go on when we change the car, I have a (probably irrational) fear of "computer says no".
CD may have a life of 100 years, probably a lot more but CD-R is not the same thing, they do degrade. They can become unreadable after just a few years.
Pigmy Pony
26-04-2026, 16:20
Yes I read that too in the same article. But blank CDs are way cheaper than DAT tapes.
I think I paid about £8 for 5 blank DAT tapes, that was maybe ten years ago or so. Sure they are not that much more now.
Pigmy Pony
26-04-2026, 19:07
The cheapest (and the only) DAT tape I found on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/EMTEC-DAT-Master-Minute-Tape/dp/B007XWJCMK/ref=sr_1_18?crid=3T5Z1XXDST9S7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uxB667q-3ZfxtlihWHdY6gde8z6GiCBgbQqNwummCk2Vhw8HHpYvakDWOc 7ofFL2heX0ctk6U3Zh67OT_74fLw.ks7LJY7OpMhJQJH_JQ2-rLorxGMTaXsiXmz9Yr_u1RQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=DAT+tapes&qid=1777229891&sprefix=dat+tapes%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-18&xpid=G4M97HJYm4FgJ
Lots for sale on Ebay, starting at around 6 quid each.
CD may have a life of 100 years, probably a lot more but CD-R is not the same thing, they do degrade. They can become unreadable after just a few years.
It very much depends on the manufacturer. The best are made by Verbatim and by TDK and Maxell, but sometimes production is outsourced to RiTek and those are not considered to be so good. All however can be relied upon to last for at lest 10 years, with the best lasting at least 50 years.
I'm not sure how long DAT is expected to last; like any spooled magnetic tape there will be print-through, which will compromise sound performance with time. How this affects the digital signal recorded on them I don't know, but I imagine a "1" print-through on a "0" will slightly raise the amplitude of the latter, and a "0" print-through on a "1" will slightly lower the amplitude. Does any of that matter?
It very much depends on the manufacturer. The best are made by Verbatim and by TDK and Maxell, but sometimes production is outsourced to RiTek and those are not considered to be so good. All however can be relied upon to last for at lest 10 years, with the best lasting at least 50 years.
I'm not sure how long DAT is expected to last; like any spooled magnetic tape there will be print-through, which will compromise sound performance with time. How this affects the digital signal recorded on them I don't know, but I imagine a "1" print-through on a "0" will slightly raise the amplitude of the latter, and a "0" print-through on a "1" will slightly lower the amplitude. Does any of that matter?
I suppose if degradation gets to the point where it can't error correct? But I really don't know much about how DAT works or if it has error correction and redundancy like a CD does.
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