'Analog Dinosaur' succumbs to the joys of FBA : enter Raspberry Pi 2/IQ-Audio DAC+!! [Archive] - Page 3

NRG

31-03-2015, 15:45

Nice one, Neal. How are you getting on now things have had a chance to bed in? :)

Marco.

I'm still experimenting Marco but it sounds quite good in the office.

The reason I'm getting all excited about the RPi concept is it's so simple now to swap over an SD card an boot into a completely different solution.

For instance I've just downloaded and installed SqueezePlug-Max2Play. While Volumio looks good its no use if you are a long time SB user with a number of players around the house and you wish to keep them.

With Squeezeplug-Max2Play on the RPi it can run the LMS server s/w and at the same time act as a squeezebox player (using SqueezeLite) plus I can point our Kitchen based SB Radio at it and also my Office SB MKII…It supports Airplay from the Mac and LMS has a plugin for Spotify and iPlayer etc. So functionality wise its sorted.

What I'm hoping for now is sound quality that at least equals my current heavily modded SBMKII, I suspect this will be achieved with the IQaudio DAC+ board and possibly a linear PSU. If this is indeed the case I can free up some real-estate as the RPi is heck of a lot smaller than my re-housed SB, Bushmaster MKII and battery pack!

r100

31-03-2015, 15:51

Hi All, just remembered that there is a ready built solution with a high end DAC and a Raspberry all packaged into a nice aluminum box... The price is pretty steep though but it is a very good DAC.. here it is

http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/appareils-hifi-dac/audiophonics-dap-dac-sabre-es9018-raspberry-pi-dac-p-9009.html

montesquieu

31-03-2015, 16:01

WAD62

31-03-2015, 16:06

Ah, sounds like it's recognising WIFI networks but not connecting properly. Dongle makers have a nasty habit of changing chipsets between different hardware versions of the same product. Does using "lsusb -v" at the command line give any clue what chipset your dongle actually has, and what driver is being loaded? The command "lsmod | grep 81*" should give the answer the second question. You say you have a .tz driver, what exaclty is that file and where was that taken from?

If you only want to use Squeezelite player, do you have particular reason not to use the picoreplayer?

Hi Chris, I think your prognosis is pretty close...my reason for trying the Squeezeplug/Max2play distro was the potential of setting it all up without the hassle of a monitor, and but for the WiFi issue all else seemed well...time to drag the monitor to the Pi ;)

Desmo

31-03-2015, 16:06

I'm getting very confused by all this.

Most people have DACs already. In most cases, rather good ones.

....

Surely the market here is in the streaming part of the device - the interface between files stored on a network, and output of AES/EBU, SPDIF, or USB output to a DAC? Squeezebox area of the market?

What if I don't need or want an integrated DAC?

And indeed I already use a Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6 device which is a combined streamer/DAC - there are many other such devices out there. I think the unique feature here is price/performance rather than something inherently new.

As I said elsewhere on this thread, I already have 3 DACs (and a couple of streamers if it comes to that), this just sounds like an interesting project to me. Nothing wrong with that.

Krisbee

31-03-2015, 16:21

Hi Chris, I think your prognosis is pretty close...my reason for trying the Squeezeplug/Max2play distro was the potential of setting it all up without the hassle of a monitor, and but for the WiFi issue all else seemed well...time to drag the monitor to the Pi ;)

Have you tried picoreplayer? Otherwise, if you can connect via ethernet cable and get to the RPI command line via SSH, there should be no need to attach it to a monitor etc just yet.

WAD62

31-03-2015, 16:24

Have you tried picoreplayer? Otherwise, if you can connect to your RPi via SSH, there should be no need to attach it to a monitor etc just yet.

Not yet...and R.E. putty, fair point well made...:)

NRG

31-03-2015, 16:36

I'm getting very confused by all this.

Most people have DACs already. In most cases, rather good ones. And in any event, most digital sounds the same,

Does it?, I'm not convinced IME there are notable differences between DACs

so any DAC will only be as good as its preamp functionality (I'm been down this route before of voltage output ... people start of thinking its wonderful, amazing lovely sound right from a circuit board ... then after some months they add a transformer to match impedance... or a sold state buffer ... or a tube output stage to make it sound better)

Surely the market here is in the streaming part of the device - the interface between files stored on a network, and output of AES/EBU, SPDIF, or USB output to a DAC? Squeezebox area of the market?

What if I don't need or want an integrated DAC?

Yes, the streaming part is important as is functionality, however the beauty of an integrated DAC, if it is implemented well is that it eliminates the USB or SPDIF interface and associated issues…like clock recovery and (hopefully) power line noise. One reason, IMHO, the external DAC market has sprung up is the poor implementation of internal DAC's in CD players and early streamers due to cost restraints and and the need to hit a market price point…an external DAC dangles the carrot of improved sound quality but I see nn reason why equivalent sound can't be achieved with a well designed internal DAC….one fly in the ointment could be the requirement for a quality power supply.

The other benefit, for me, is less real-estate on the shelf….

Gazjam

31-03-2015, 16:44

Looks good, but too spendy and kinda reinventing the wheel I think...

Hi All, just remembered that there is a ready built solution with a high end DAC and a Raspberry all packaged into a nice aluminum box... The price is pretty steep though but it is a very good DAC.. here it is

http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/appareils-hifi-dac/audiophonics-dap-dac-sabre-es9018-raspberry-pi-dac-p-9009.html

User211

31-03-2015, 16:55

I'm getting very confused by all this.

Most people have DACs already. In most cases, rather good ones. And in any event, most digital sounds the same, so any DAC will only be as good as its preamp functionality (I'm been down this route before of voltage output ... people start of thinking its wonderful, amazing lovely sound right from a circuit board ... then after some months they add a transformer to match impedance... or a sold state buffer ... or a tube output stage to make it sound better).

Surely the market here is in the streaming part of the device - the interface between files stored on a network, and output of AES/EBU, SPDIF, or USB output to a DAC? Squeezebox area of the market?

What if I don't need or want an integrated DAC?

I just think of it as a very cheap computer, which is what it is. It has various I/O options and could be made to do all sorts of things.

What you want to use it for is up to you. I don't need one - anyone with a laptop, some Wi-Fi maybe for a hard drive connected to their router or a streaming service maybe, and a DAC probably doesn't need one either. It does do video though so it can be a super cheap HTPC.

There are so many option now for configuring a playback system via computers the mind literally boggles. The PI 2 is just another option. Some will like it, some will think it is shite I suspect. Much depends on what they are trying to use it for and if they manage to configure it successfully. Much will also depend on the quality of the s/w and h/w they use to achieve their goal.

The two massive pluses are size and price.

Some will get so frustrated with it they'll give up I suspect!

Gordon@IQ

31-03-2015, 18:09

Certainly the Pi is not yet an out the box solution for those with no linux experiance. The software is evolving and will continue to do so.

There are various DAC on Pi solutions out there and many being used in custom installs as (as someone mentioned) it's cheap.

What is appealing (to me anyway) is that since it's mostly open software (and I have a software background) I can make changes and do what I want, not what someone else dictated at a steering meeting for a large CE manufacturer.

Trouble I have today is finding time to do the software side :-)

My goal was to bring the great SQ for little money to the DIY / Maker community. At first there was HiFiBerry (Daniel) and mysefl (IQaudIO), now we have many clones out there taking advantage of the hardware and software platforms we've created - but that's the World of Linux, we share and everyone benefits and we benefit too from what others are doing. However we need to keep moving forward.

Michelangello (Volumio.org) / Andreas (RuneAudio) / Steen (PiCorePlayer) / Wooter (PiMusicBox) / Me and others have all benefited from the community.

The audiophonics pre-build solutiuon is a bunch of bought in parts (HiFi2000 case / power supply / etc.) which facilitates rapid development and time to market.

Soon you'll see some established audio companies going down this same route to market - I know, I'm working with some of them. Where they can differentiate is on user experience and features. Here the software becomes key.

Gordon

Gordon@IQ

31-03-2015, 18:19

IIRC the PCM5122 is used in some of the Olive streamers (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.sempre-audio.at/Fast_Alles_neu_bei_Olive_-_Olive_4HD_und_5HD_mit_integriertem_Verstaerker_Ol ive_6HD_in_neuer_Generat.id.2815.htm&prev=search), the PCM5102 in the Meridian USB device (http://www.audiostream.com/content/meridian-explorer-usb-dac)

Gordon

struth

31-03-2015, 18:22

Not a computer novice but know nothing about Linux. I think it would crack me up tbh, although a reasonable plug n play version would possibly interest me if it out performed what I have at moment

User211

31-03-2015, 20:19

Certainly the Pi is not yet an out the box solution for those with no linux experiance. The software is evolving and will continue to do so.

I've been writing and developing s/w for 36 years now. I've used Unix and Linux for some of those years. I've never liked it TBH.

One defining moment for me was sometime in the mid-90s when sat next to a fellow s/w type, and I came out with the statement "why is Unix so impenetrable and user hostile?". Response: "because it keeps the plebs out".

Never a truer word spoken and I think those goons (well OK they were pretty clever I guess) at Bell Labs and AT&T have a hell of a lot to answer for. I'd hang them given half the chance. Unintuitive? Absolutely so needlessly so to the point of absurdity if you ask me.

User211

31-03-2015, 20:42

I know that last post sounds a bit harsh but it is just what I feel about it. Some people really seriously like it. To get good with it (and C++) takes a lot of effort. It is a thankless job in the sense that nobody ever praises the people who have created some sometimes quite superb s/w and given it away for free.

In many cases the amount of effort expended on it is just colossal, even though to the user it seems like nothing much. That sort of thing earns my sincere respect.

Krisbee

31-03-2015, 21:45

User211

31-03-2015, 22:36

The whole the point of projects like Volumio, squeezeplug, picoreplayer and others is to allow the user, who knows little or no linux, to use their Rpi as an audio player with relative ease.

Well yeah that's why people write applications. For audio purposes nearly all users here need not get involved in Linux to any great extent at all. Or write code.

Linux isn't impenetrable. It just isn't intuitive at command line level - meaning lots of man usage to find the right options for a command. It is just time consuming. Stick to using GUIs if you can I say.

Anyway, back to audio...:)

Marco

01-04-2015, 07:13

Anyway, back to audio...:)

Indeed. Guys, please don't turn this thread into a snooze-fest about computer programming lingo! ;)

Was a busy boy yesterday, with one thing and another, so will comment later on recent posts. Glad to see you're getting stuck in Gordon :cool:

Marco.

NRG

01-04-2015, 07:17

The whole the point of projects like Volumio, squeezeplug, picoreplayer and others is to allow the user, who knows little or no linux, to use their Rpi as an audio player with relative ease. No doubt users will pass their verdict on the success, or otherwise, of these various projects meeting their declared aims.

I would imagine the relative merits and ease of software development in a Linux environment would be of little interest to users unless it was so difficult as to have actually held back meaningful development, which is clearly not the case.

I must admit I didn't spot any 'Linux' when installing either Volumio or SqueezePlug, both where straight forward and SqueezePlug even includes a detailed step by step guide on how to configure it, right there on the the opening screen.

I have delved under the hood to perform some tweaks that are not really necessary for normal operation on either of these two solutions but it was hardly difficult in any case....However, if you don't understand computers then I can see the reason why somebody wouldn't want to go the DIY route because if there is an issue you are a bit stuck!

Halfway Tree

01-04-2015, 11:41

Q) Hardware volume control
A) Right, that's a good topic and I'll try and address it simply.
Some DAC chips output at a specific fixed line level (TI PCM5102 plus many more), others have variable output, the TI PCM5122 as used on Pi-DAC+, for example. The variable output is controlled on-chip through a volume register. Write value "a" into the volume register and you get max volume "A", value "b" and you get volume "B". How this volume change is handled on-chip is deep in the device design. This volume is delivered to the Linux system through the Linux ALSA driver and the Linux ALSA utilities (alsamixer for example) will either pass this variable volume to the DAC or will emulate the volume adjustment by removing bits from the data BEFORE it gets to the DAC. For best SQ you want ONE volume control over the whole system (IMHO) and you don't want to start removing bits of real data to emulate low to high volume - you're throwign away data before it gets converted.

This is why we suggest that HW volume control is better than "emulated" software volume control.

Gordon

Gordon, firstly thanks for answering the volume control question which I'd asked early on in this thread.

I looked at the RPI+IQDac some time ago, but as I need 3 dacs as I have an active system - one for each frequency band I couldn't see a way to implement it.

Having used both digital and analogue volume controls I think it's as much about how well they are implemented than about the method. Currently I'm using a digital volume control (JRiver - 64 bit) as I think it is better than my other option of using a multi-channel analogue volume control (MSB) just before the power amps. It seems to be quieter and there is less cable clutter.

However, an RPi and multiple IQDacs would be very appealing for an active system if I could find way to implement it....:)

Gordon

montesquieu

01-04-2015, 13:57

Does it?, I'm not convinced IME there are notable differences between DACs

Yes, the streaming part is important as is functionality, however the beauty of an integrated DAC, if it is implemented well is that it eliminates the USB or SPDIF interface and associated issues…like clock recovery and (hopefully) power line noise. One reason, IMHO, the external DAC market has sprung up is the poor implementation of internal DAC's in CD players and early streamers due to cost restraints and and the need to hit a market price point…an external DAC dangles the carrot of improved sound quality but I see nn reason why equivalent sound can't be achieved with a well designed internal DAC….one fly in the ointment could be the requirement for a quality power supply.

The other benefit, for me, is less real-estate on the shelf….

The differences between DACs (abilities with hi-res file formats apart) are primarily the same as the differences between preamps, ie in the output stage. Why on earth wouldn't it be? My Audio Note DAC (2.1x upgraded to 4.1x spec) has pretty much and equivalent ouput stage to an Audio Note M5. It's a total nonsense to suggest that the op amp chips in a one-piece DAC board like this do the same thing as this or any other high-end DAC. Don't be daft.

I remember all the fun people had when DIY DAC boards from China appeared on ebay, great sound for not very much. (I ran one myself for a bit with a SRPP tube output stage). But who is still using them? It was a fad and people realised eventually that DIY fun as they were, there were all sorts of limitations when compared to 'real' kit. This looks to be exactly the same proposition, with a tiny computer attached to do the streaming bit.

With a digital signal there is nothing to be gained from an integrated streamer and DAC if all you are doing is passing data. Interface issues pale into insignificance anyway if a) you do it right as Audio Note do with buffers/transformers on SPDIF/AES-EBU input and output, or you can provide USB output to a DAC's Asynchronous USB input, and b) compared to preamp performance, see above.

As I said before the DAC element of this is a red herring in my book. The interesting part is a useful, functional replacement for the Squeezebox (which had its own DAC too, remember, though most people used it as a transport).

All good fun I'm sure but I do detect a bit of collective forum mania coming on. Sorry about the water.

Gordon@IQ

01-04-2015, 16:33

Montesquieu, take your point.

I think the difference here is that there is more control of the features and functionality that can be implemented without the need for big CE companies.

G

Gordon@IQ

01-04-2015, 16:35

However, an RPi and multiple IQDacs would be very appealing for an active system if I could find way to implement it....:)

It's possible to have 4 PCM5122 on the I2C bus, each could be made to be a unique sound card and then each could be EQ'd too. It would be a hack and need some specific Linux Kernel development but worth a play. I'll add it to my todo list :-)

Marco

01-04-2015, 16:44

Hi Tom,

As I said before the DAC element of this is a red herring in my book.

It's a total nonsense to suggest that the op amp chips in a one-piece DAC board like this do the same thing as this or any other high-end DAC. Don't be daft.

Having used and familiarised myself with the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC combination now for over a week, I couldn't disagree more!! :eek:

Not sure how you can say that, really, when others and I have already reported that this little £32 wonder has outperformed some Naim gear, the DAC inside a £6k Rega Isis CDP, and has given my (circa £5k) highly-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 combo a serious run for its money - and indeed continues to do so...

How much more of a bargain do you want, or proof that this little thing kicks serious ass?? ;)

For me, the IQ-Audio DAC+ is an integral part of the magic of this combination. The truly superb sounds it produces are a fundamental reason why I've finally embraced the joys of FBA, after many years of not finding a solution (at any price point) that satisfies my ears. Like I said before, the Pi/IQ Audio DAC+ is bonkers good for the money, and many, many multiples of money more!! :)

Marco.

Marco

01-04-2015, 16:55

It's possible to have 4 PCM5122 on the I2C bus, each could be made to be a unique sound card and then each could be EQ'd too. It would be a hack and need some specific Linux Kernel development but worth a play. I'll add it to my todo list :-)

Gordon, any idea when the Spotify error in Volumio is going to be fixed?

Duncan visited me yesterday, armed with some Linux code (or at least I think that's what it was), which he thought would fix matters, but despite keying in my Spotify username and password, ensuring that both were correct, I still can't access Spotify within the Volumio user interface (in effect so that it appears beside my NAS box and WEBRADIO, when hitting 'Browse', thereby allowing me to select it for playback).

Marco.

NRG

01-04-2015, 17:34

The differences between DACs (abilities with hi-res file formats apart) are primarily the same as the differences between preamps, ie in the output stage. Why on earth wouldn't it be? My Audio Note DAC (2.1x upgraded to 4.1x spec) has pretty much and equivalent ouput stage to an Audio Note M5. It's a total nonsense to suggest that the op amp chips in a one-piece DAC board like this do the same thing as this or any other high-end DAC. Don't be daft.

I remember all the fun people had when DIY DAC boards from China appeared on ebay, great sound for not very much. (I ran one myself for a bit with a SRPP tube output stage). But who is still using them? It was a fad and people realised eventually that DIY fun as they were, there were all sorts of limitations when compared to 'real' kit. This looks to be exactly the same proposition, with a tiny computer attached to do the streaming bit.

With a digital signal there is nothing to be gained from an integrated streamer and DAC if all you are doing is passing data. Interface issues pale into insignificance anyway if a) you do it right as Audio Note do with buffers/transformers on SPDIF/AES-EBU input and output, or you can provide USB output to a DAC's Asynchronous USB input, and b) compared to preamp performance, see above.

As I said before the DAC element of this is a red herring in my book. The interesting part is a useful, functional replacement for the Squeezebox (which had its own DAC too, remember, though most people used it as a transport).

All good fun I'm sure but I do detect a bit of collective forum mania coming on. Sorry about the water.

Don't be daft?! I suggest you get down of that high horse as the rarified air up there seems to be affecting your thinking! :D

DAC chip technology moves on at a rapid rate you need to reset your thinking from the old TDA151A days. Modern DAC chips give outstanding performance when correctly implemented and offer some great features. An integrated DAC close to the data stream utilizing the I2S bus with its separate serial line and clock has got to be better than encoding the PCM stream for SPDIF and worse USB. Why on earth wouldn't it be? ;) Just because Audio Note have used an isolation transformer on the SPDIF interface does not make it perfect, its laughable to think that as you still need to recover the clock and you have issues dealing with ground plane noise. Utilising SPDIF / USB adds complexity and is unnecessary if you can use I2S with a well implemented DAC, it needn't cost Audio Note prices....the only issue as I mentioned before is the dependency on the power supply...

Marco

01-04-2015, 18:09

DAC chip technology moves on at a rapid rate you need to reset your thinking from the old TDA151A days. Modern DAC chips give outstanding performance when correctly implemented and offer some great features. An integrated DAC close to the data stream utilizing the I2S bus with its separate serial line and clock has got to be better than encoding the PCM stream for SPDIF and worse USB. Why on earth wouldn't it be?

+1 (with bells on, although the Sony DAC, featuring the use of TDA1541s, still has a very entertaining and musically valid sound of its own).

Anyway, a couple of observations, based on recent experimenting and further listening to the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC combo:

First of all, the ethernet cables that Gazjam recommended further back in this thread, shown here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171728903258?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

...unquestionably sound significantly better than the much thinner Maplins Cat5e cable I had been using before. Technically, why that is, I don't know. I suspect it's got something to do with the shielding used in the former.

However, there is a marked difference in the sonic presentation of both ethernet cables (bearing in mind that the Duronic ones are actually £5 less than the Maplins cables I bought, so definitely not 'overpriced foo'). The Duronic cables tighten bass and open up the midrange and top-end, allowing markedly more detail through. The effect is so obvious, one can hear it instantly.

As such, I now use these cables from my NAS box to the router, and from the router to the Pi. Highly recommended, and at a bargain price! Nice one, Gary :thumbsup:

The other thing is that I must retract my earlier statements about the IQ-Audio DAC+ sounding better with no active preamp in line. It turned out that the reason why I wasn't getting the proper results with my Croft was because I hadn't set the 'gain' high enough in Volumio, when adjusting it, before disabling the Hardware.

Once I had set the controls to 96 (the sweet spot in my system), and had successfully applied that setting (disabling the Hardware), the sound is stunningly good now through the Croft, and significantly better than using the Volumio digital interface alone to adjust listening levels, which I guess is as it should be.

I feel, however, that the process in Volumio should be explained more clearly for newbies, in terms of how to optimally partner the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC with an active preamp, as it is far from obvious, and thus mistakes are easily made! That said, things have now never sounded better :cool:

Marco.

Gazjam

01-04-2015, 18:33

+1 (with bells on, although the Sony DAC, featuring the use of TDA1541s, still has a very entertaining and musically valid sound of its own).

Anyway, a couple of observations, based on recent experimenting and further listening to the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC combo:

First of all, the ethernet cables that Gazjam recommended further back in this thread, shown here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171728903258?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

...unquestionably sound significantly better than the much thinner Maplins Cat5e cable I had been using before. Technically, why that is, I don't know. I suspect it's got something to do with the shielding used in the former.

However, there is a marked difference in the sonic presentation of both ethernet cables (bearing in mind that the Duronic ones are actually £5 less than the Maplins cables I bought, so definitely not 'overpriced foo'). The Duronic cables tighten bass and open up the midrange and top-end, allowing markedly more detail through. The effect is so obvious, one can hear it instantly.

As such, I now use these cables from my NAS box to the router, and from the router to the Pi. Highly recommended, and at a bargain price! Nice one, Gary :thumbsup:

The other thing is that I must retract my earlier statements about the IQ-Audio DAC+ sounding better with no active preamp in line. It turned out that the reason why I wasn't getting the proper results with my Croft was because I hadn't set the 'gain' high enough in Volumio, when adjusting it, before disabling the Hardware.

Once I had set it to 96 (the sweet spot in my system), and had successfully applied that setting, the sound is stunningly good now through the Croft, and significantly better than using the Volumio web interface alone to adjust listening levels, which I guess is as it should be.

I feel, however, that the process in Volumio should be explained more clearly for newbies, in terms of how to optimally partner the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC with an active preamp, as it is far from obvious, and thus mistakes are easily made! That said, things have now never sounded better :cool:

Marco.

Sweet :)
Glad you liked them.
As with other electrical and signal cables, connector quality and construction can have an impact on how good they work.
These Cat6A cables are inexpensive, robust, on paper do the electrical/networky stuff extremely well and the connectors and construction are bulletproof.

Marco

01-04-2015, 18:38

Yup, quality recco, dude! :)

Marco.

Darren

01-04-2015, 19:34

stunningly good[/B] now through the Croft, and significantly better than using the Volumio digital interface alone to adjust listening levels.....Marco.

Aww... now you've gone and spoiled it.... don't want a pre amp...... :wah:

montesquieu

01-04-2015, 20:16

Don't be daft?! I suggest you get down of that high horse as the rarified air up there seems to be affecting your thinking! :D

DAC chip technology moves on at a rapid rate you need to reset your thinking from the old TDA151A days. Modern DAC chips give outstanding performance when correctly implemented and offer some great features. An integrated DAC close to the data stream utilizing the I2S bus with its separate serial line and clock has got to be better than encoding the PCM stream for SPDIF and worse USB. Why on earth wouldn't it be? ;) Just because Audio Note have used an isolation transformer on the SPDIF interface does not make it perfect, its laughable to think that as you still need to recover the clock and you have issues dealing with ground plane noise. Utilising SPDIF / USB adds complexity and is unnecessary if you can use I2S with a well implemented DAC, it needn't cost Audio Note prices....the only issue as I mentioned before is the dependency on the power supply...

Totally ignores my main point which is that difference between the digital elements of DACs are relatively unimportant, what matters is the output stage.

Marco

01-04-2015, 20:33

What about what I wrote? :)

Marco.

r100

01-04-2015, 21:24

Marco, glad you found a way to bypass the digital vol control and use your hardware pre .. re the spotify problem, there are some fixes on volumio.org. basically it seems the password is not updated in one of the conf files.. maybe just wait for an upgrade [emoji41]

Marco

01-04-2015, 21:33

Cheers, mate. The Croft just wasn't sounding right before without being fed with a strong enough input signal... However, once fixed, it certainly unleashes the beast! :eek: :eyebrows:

In terms of Spotify, I've got Duncan on the case, so we'll see what happens. Even if there are fixes on the Volumio site, I wouldn't know how to apply them.

Now I'm just looking forward to seeing what kind of linear PSU Paul Hynes comes up with for the Pi, as that should really elevate its performance into the upper echelons of high-end audio (but without the price tag)... Exciting times! :)

Marco.

r100

01-04-2015, 21:34

for sure !!

montesquieu

01-04-2015, 21:39

What about what I wrote? :)

Marco.

Unsurprised at the improvement with an active pre and glad you found a way to get there :)

I suspect an isolation transformer between the DAC output and preamp input (as was often used in the previous wave of DAC board projects) might improve things further thanks to better impedance matching, or better still an active buffer - perhaps have a go with an EE BBA or MF X10?

Unconvinced by improvements from ethernet cables though. Having spent 20 years in IT and knowing a little bit about these things ... the way data packets work over ethernet is not the same as with a co-ax cable (with checksum being required in all transmissions and no possibility of missing or altered bits that didn't also cut the music completely) I can't conceive of any possible mechanism that would make a difference to the sound (unless you are hiding a DSP chip somewhere on the cable).

I'm far from a cable ludditie - I have two silver cables (AN Vx) left in my system, a tonearm cable and a digital cable between Audio Note DAC and transport. But the technologies are different. Ethernet is not SPDIF.

Marco

01-04-2015, 21:41

gary

01-04-2015, 23:23

Careful Marco before you know it you will be buying solid state lol

The Black Adder

02-04-2015, 05:24

Unsurprised at the improvement with an active pre and glad you found a way to get there :)

I suspect an isolation transformer between the DAC output and preamp input (as was often used in the previous wave of DAC board projects) might improve things further thanks to better impedance matching, or better still an active buffer - perhaps have a go with an EE BBA or MF X10?

Unconvinced by improvements from ethernet cables though. Having spent 20 years in IT and knowing a little bit about these things ... the way data packets work over ethernet is not the same as with a co-ax cable (with checksum being required in all transmissions and no possibility of missing or altered bits that didn't also cut the music completely) I can't conceive of any possible mechanism that would make a difference to the sound (unless you are hiding a DSP chip somewhere on the cable).

I'm far from a cable ludditie - I have two silver cables (AN Vx) left in my system, a tonearm cable and a digital cable between Audio Note DAC and transport. But the technologies are different. Ethernet is not SPDIF.

+1 to that.

The Black Adder

02-04-2015, 05:33

Yup, I'm in no position to argue with that, but I also know what I heard (am hearing) - and what the two other people present did too, when the change was made! It certainly wouldn't be the first time in hi-fi that cable effects have flied in the face of 'accepted wisdom', and it probably won't be the last... ;)

In any case, for a tenner, who cares? No puppies have died :)

Marco.

P.S Underestimate the IQ-Audio DAC at your peril. This little thing is unquestionably a veritable 'giant-killer'!

But my DAC looks ACE!... and so does the sony. lol

Are we absolutely sure that taking the Sony further in internal improvements wouldn't improve it's stance against the Pi, or better it? My DAC is so well built like your sony (except in a high end TEAC stylee). So have you looked in to any mods that would bring the dinosaur back in to the lime lite? Or is it that (late question I know) the Pi is simply a different flavor to the Sony?

lol.. I'll put a banner up on an M1 bridge later saying 'Save the DAS-R1' :D

I was going to write a thread about my dac... now me thinks it will be put in the bin... (the thread, that is) lol

NRG

02-04-2015, 07:16

.......
I suspect an isolation transformer between the DAC output and preamp input (as was often used in the previous wave of DAC board projects) might improve things further thanks to better impedance matching, or better still an active buffer - perhaps have a go with an EE BBA or MF X10?

Unconvinced by improvements from ethernet cables though. Having spent 20 years in IT and knowing a little bit about these things ... the way data packets work over ethernet is not the same as with a co-ax cable (with checksum being required in all transmissions and no possibility of missing or altered bits that didn't also cut the music completely) I can't conceive of any possible mechanism that would make a difference to the sound (unless you are hiding a DSP chip somewhere on the cable).

I'm far from a cable ludditie - I have two silver cables (AN Vx) left in my system, a tonearm cable and a digital cable between Audio Note DAC and transport. But the technologies are different. Ethernet is not SPDIF.

I agree with your view point on Ethernet cables (I'm over 30 years now in the IT/Computer industry) but folks hear what they hear. I've tried various cables but have never heard a difference, I can't see how it could affect the analogue o/p but hey, I'll keep an open mind on the Pi...until I try it for myself.

On your other points we'll have to agree to disagree, I see no reason to add a buffer other than to colour the sound or to add some sort of impedance matching if it's needed. The PCM5122 requires no o/p I/V stage or in-line capacitors or mute relays and is happy driving into a 10K load out to 153KHz. O/P voltage is 2.1RMS so enough to drive the input of the vast majority of amps. Why place more electronics in the signal path.

The MF X10 is a CF valve stage, I've built a few of these over the years, they alter the sound and tend to produce a fuller midrange but lose detail and clarity by placing more components like capacitors in the signal path. I don't know the BBA circuit but would not be surprised if it too place more gubbins where it's not wanted. Plus the cost sort of defeats what an RPi streaming solution is all about IMHO...Anyhow I'll have to wait until the end of April to find out...

r100

02-04-2015, 07:31

I agree with your view point on Ethernet cables (I'm over 30 years now in the IT/Computer industry).... .

Anyone ? 40 years ?

WAD62

02-04-2015, 08:44

Anyone ? 40 years ?

Only the 33 years for me, if I can include the degree that is...;)

We're not talking just IT here, the closer one moves in the chain to the actual DAC the further removed from IT one gets, and were into a murky world of physics.

My experience and suspicion is that DACs are fragile little things, and their performance can be degraded by electromagnetic 'interference', hence different connections and cabling can introduce audible differences, without affecting the bit perfect data transfer figures...but I'm only guessing as this area is out of the IT domain IMHO :)

Marco

02-04-2015, 08:53

Careful Marco before you know it you will be buying solid state lol

I'd buy *anything*, Gary, that truly was worth buying! ;)

I don't discriminate: if something is good, it's good, no matter what technology it uses.

Marco.

Marco

02-04-2015, 09:31

Hi Jo,

Are we absolutely sure that taking the Sony further in internal improvements wouldn't improve it's stance against the Pi, or better it?

No we're not. I'm sure that the Sony could be taken further, but that's something I've put on the back burner for now. It sounds ace as it is, and like all successful 'recipes', could easily be ruined by adding the wrong ingredient. As they say, you don't attempt to 'fix' what ain't broken...

Plus, and let me make this absolutely clear: the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC isn't better all-round than the Sony.

It it is better in some areas (notably absolute resolution, filigree-detail retrieval/high-frequency extension, rather like the sonic effect one gets with a turntable, when going from using a top-of-the-range moving magnet cartridge, to a high-end moving coil, and how that impacts on musical presentation), and not quite as good in others (notably 'muscularity' of musical delivery, i.e. overall weight and scale, dynamic alacrity, and the sheer balls-out 'size' of the sound, as the Sony portrays music with such huge scale and 'life' , which the Pi/DAC combo can't [I]quite match - but look at the difference in price!! :mental:

However, I suspect that the addition to the Pi of a top-notch linear PSU will go some way, in that respect, towards levelling the playing field, whilst maintaining the requisite 'SPPV factor'....

Essentially, in comparison with the Sony's 'take no prisoners', hugely bold and entertaining musical presentation, the Pi/DAC combo does things more subtly, and arguably with greater finesse and refinement.

What is missing too (and this for me is crucial), is any sense whatsoever that one is listening to a digital source. It has an uncannily 'relaxed' and effortless musical presentation, together with a complete absence of the fatiguing 'glare' that has infected every other digital music source I've heard to date, so in that respect, it's like listening to a top-notch turntable, playing mint condition audiophile pressings of vinyl. The Pi/DAC combo exhibits that glorious, all-absorbing 'analogue tone' and subjective sense of 'musical correctness'.

The Sony, as good as it is, still sounds like a CD player (albeit a very good one), simply because *that* is what it is, and so no matter how sonically and musically accomplished, it can never completely shake off the shackles (playback accuracy limitations) imposed by the interface of a laser mechanism reading a disc - and as such it sounds just a tad more contrived and 'false'. That's about the best way I can describe it.

My DAC is so well built like your sony (except in a high end TEAC stylee). So have you looked in to any mods that would bring the dinosaur back in to the lime lite? Or is it that (late question I know) the Pi is simply a different flavor to the Sony?

That's it in a nutshell; in the same way as my SPU has a different 'flavour' from that of the Denon DL-S1, or which that has over the 103... You're most certainly playing with 'flavours' here, not any sense of overall sonic superiority.

I was going to write a thread about my dac... now me thinks it will be put in the bin... (the thread, that is) lol

Lol... If you really like your DAC, don't rule out the possibility of also using it in conjunction with the Pi. You just need to use the Hi-Fi Berry interface instead. For the money, you could certainly try both (Pi/Hi-Fi Berry+TEAC, vs. Pi/IQ-Audio DAC), and still end up spending less than a good night out in the town with your mates!! :eyebrows:

I'm not really interested in going there (doing the same with the Hi-Fi Berry and my Sony), as I'm happy to have the facility of using a modern bang up-to-date, top-notch (yet cheap as chips) DAC, and its ability to allow me to play hi-res music files, beyond the capability of the Sony.

As such, I've welcomed the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+ very warmly into my system as being, in conjunction with the RPi itself, yet another highly capable music source. Choice is good! :cool:

Marco.

Qwin

02-04-2015, 09:36

Marco

02-04-2015, 11:22

Hi Ken,

Yup, that's the area where I think the difference is coming from. Once I'm satisfied that what I'm hearing is right, I'll *always* trust my ears over currently 'accepted wisdom' or that which is stated as 'unquestionably correct' in Johnny's Bible of Scientific Facts.

This is the Maplin ethernet cable I was using before: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cat-5e-utp-network-patch-cable-15m-grey-a27aw

The Duronic cable, recommended by Gaz, to my ears, is unquestionably and significantly sonically superior. Note that I'm not making any claims as to how 'better' it does its job, in terms of transferring the relevant data, as I don't believe that's where the improvement is coming from.

Just because you've worked and experimented for years in a particular technical field, doesn't automatically mean that you know ALL there is to know about it! ;)

Marco.

Halfway Tree

02-04-2015, 11:25

It's possible to have 4 PCM5122 on the I2C bus, each could be made to be a unique sound card and then each could be EQ'd too. It would be a hack and need some specific Linux Kernel development but worth a play. I'll add it to my todo list :-)

That would be brilliant! :) Currently I'm only using 6 channels, with a simple passive between the two midrange drivers on my Linkwitz LX521s, but eventually would look at using 8 channels.

This is typically how this is being implemented at the moment:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/DSP_challenge.htm

Many thanks

Gordon

Macca

02-04-2015, 12:21

and its ability to allow me to play hi-res music files, beyond the capability of the Sony. As such, I've welcomed it very warmly into my system, as being yet another highly capable music source .

Choice is good! :cool:

Marco.

Marco I know you are not a digital fanboy and I don't want to de-rail the discussion but so called 'high resolution' files are nothing of the sort. It's marketing-speak. They are no higher resolution that the redbook cds you own. If they sound better it is because they are different masters. That's all. I agree that alone is a good reason to have the facility to play them.

Marco

02-04-2015, 12:30

Hi Martin,

I tackled that matter earlier in the thread, near the beginning. If you don't remember, scroll back and have a look. Although I know where you're coming from, I disagree, and explained why.

Incidentally, the only thing I'm a "fanboy" of, when it comes to hi-fi, is whatever it is I consider produces the best sound! ;)

Nothing else comes into it.

Marco.

Gazjam

02-04-2015, 12:35

:scratch:
Uhm...why does SACD sound better than redbook then? (ferrinstance...)
Could you explain in a bit more depth Macca what you mean?

(See what I did there?)

r100

02-04-2015, 12:36

Marco -"...unquestionably sound significantly better than the much thinner Maplins Cat5e cable I had been using before"

The cable Gazjam recomended and you linked to is a Cat6 cable, which is built to a higher specification than Cat5e, also Cat5e is available in screened and unscreened, which may have had an effect, depending on what type your Maplins cable was.

can we keep this Ethernet cable discussion out of this thread ? It clearly belongs into the "network infrastructure" debate and not here. Otherwise we could still be discussing if a NAS makes the SQ better or if your router can contribute to cleaner bass.. please !!

Marco

02-04-2015, 12:39

Roops, I think it's relevant insofar as me mentioning it earlier as a 'new discovery', which is now done and dusted, and so I don't expect the subject to influence or dominate the main thrust of the discussion. Indeed, it won't be allowed to :)

Marco.

r100

02-04-2015, 12:40

Only the 33 years for me, if I can include the degree that is...;)

We're not talking just IT here, the closer one moves in the chain to the actual DAC the further removed from IT one gets, and were into a murky world of physics.

My experience and suspicion is that DACs are fragile little things, and their performance can be degraded by electromagnetic 'interference', hence different connections and cabling can introduce audible differences, without affecting the bit perfect data transfer figures...but I'm only guessing as this area is out of the IT domain IMHO :)

:eek:

good one !

r100

02-04-2015, 12:41

Roops, I think it's relevant in so far as me mentioning it earlier as a 'new discovery', and so I don't expect the subject to influence or dominate the main thrust of the discussion :)

Marco.

ok, then I'm out. There is too much guessing going on ATM.

Macca

02-04-2015, 12:41

Marco

02-04-2015, 12:46

ok, then I'm out...

Sorry, you've lost me.... :scratch:

I've done precisely what you asked, not the opposite, so chill out! ;)

Marco.

The Black Adder

02-04-2015, 12:51

Hi Jo,

No we're not. I'm sure that the Sony could be taken further, but that's something I've put on the back burner for now. It sounds ace as it is, and like all successful 'recipes', could easily be ruined by adding the wrong ingredient. As they say, you don't attempt to 'fix' what ain't broken...

Plus, and let me make this absolutely clear: the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC isn't better all-round than the Sony.

It it is better in some areas (notably absolute resolution, filigree-detail retrieval/high-frequency extension, rather like the sonic effect one gets with a turntable, when going from using a top-of-the-range moving magnet cartridge, to a high-end moving coil, and how that impacts on musical presentation), and not quite as good in others (notably 'muscularity' of musical delivery, i.e. overall weight and scale, dynamic alacrity, and the sheer balls-out 'size' of the sound, as the Sony portrays music with such huge scale and 'life' , which the Pi/DAC combo can't quite match - but look at the difference in price!! :mental:

However, I suspect that the addition to the Pi of a top-notch linear PSU will go some way, in that respect, towards levelling the playing field, whilst maintaining the requisite 'SPPV factor'....

Essentially, in comparison with the Sony's 'take no prisoners', hugely bold and entertaining musical presentation, the Pi/DAC combo does things more subtly, and arguably with greater finesse and refinement.

What is missing too (and this for me is crucial), is any sense whatsoever that one is listening to a digital source. It has an uncannily 'relaxed' and effortless musical presentation, together with a complete absence of the fatiguing 'glare' that has infected every other digital music source I've heard to date, so in that respect, it's like listening to a top-notch turntable, playing mint condition audiophile pressings of vinyl. The Pi/DAC combo exhibits that glorious, all-absorbing 'analogue tone' and subjective sense of 'correctness'.

The Sony, as good as it is, still sounds like a CD player (albeit a very good one), simply because *that* is what it is, and so no matter how sonically and musically accomplished, it can never completely shake off the shackles (playback accuracy limitations) imposed by the interface of a laser mechanism reading a disc - and as such it sounds just a tad more contrived and 'false'. That's about the best way I can describe it.

[I]My DAC is so well built like your sony (except in a high end TEAC stylee). So have you looked in to any mods that would bring the dinosaur back in to the lime lite? Or is it that (late question I know) the Pi is simply a different flavor to the Sony?

That's it in a nutshell; in the same way as my SPU has a different 'flavour' from that of the Denon DL-S1, or which that has over the 103... You're most certainly playing with 'flavours' here, not any sense of overall sonic superiority.

I was going to write a thread about my dac... now me thinks it will be put in the bin... (the thread, that is) lol

Lol... If you really like your DAC, don't rule out the possibility of also using it in conjunction with the Pi. You just need to use the Hi-Fi Berry interface instead. For the money, you could certainly try both (Pi/Hi-Fi Berry+TEAC, vs. Pi/IQ-Audio DAC), and still end up spending less than a good night out in the town with your mates!! :eyebrows:

I'm not really interested in going there (doing the same with the Hi-Fi Berry and my Sony), as I'm happy to have the facility of using a modern bang up-to-date, top-notch (yet cheap as chips) DAC, and its ability to allow me to play hi-res music files, beyond the capability of the Sony.

As such, I've welcomed the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+ very warmly into my system as being, in conjunction with the RPi itself, yet another highly capable music source. Choice is good! :cool:

Marco.

Now THAT is a 'top' answer... thanks Marco... :cool:

r100

02-04-2015, 13:17

Sorry, you've lost me.... :scratch:

I've done precisely what you asked, not the opposite, so chill out! ;)

Marco.

ok, then please read this article. I had posted it earlier but it didn't seem to have any effect. It is just one of many articles, written by knowledgeable people describing what Ethernet cables are and will never be even if they cost in excess of 10k$.

http://arstechnica.com/staff/2015/02/to-the-audiophile-this-10000-ethernet-cable-apparently-makes-sense/

Marco

02-04-2015, 13:23

Roops, with respect, I'm not really interested in what so-called 'experts' have to say on the subject of ethernet cables. Like I said, once I'm convinced that what I'm hearing is correct (and with regards to their sonic effect in my system, I'm at that stage now), I'll always trust my ears :)

Also, do remember that the ones I'm using cost £10, not $10,000, which is simply utter lunacy!! :mental:

Marco.

r100

02-04-2015, 13:39

ok Marco, please let's leave it there then. If it sounds good, it is good ! End of story. :)

Marco

02-04-2015, 13:43

Exactly - and that has been, and always will be, my mantra with hi-fi! :exactly:

Marco.

NRG

02-04-2015, 16:04

Manged to get time to plug the RPi into my main system, I had to over come some network issues, a duff port on my hub and a problem with a USB isolator before I got it up and running. It's currently configured to output via USB into a Breeze Audio CM6631 based SPDIF converter and then into my Bushmaster MKII.

It sounds surprisingly close to my modded SB MKII, it lacks a little bit of 'sophistication', it's a bit rougher and gritty in the treble plus instrument separation is not quite as good....given the cost it is an excellent result. At some point I'll try it with a battery and see if that improves it.

Marco

02-04-2015, 16:08

Interesting... Are you using the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+, Neal? If so, you won't hear its full potential until after 2-3 days of continuous burn-in. I'd wait that time, then reassess :)

Also, I suspect that your modded SB MKII uses a linear PSU... If so, consider that one will also improve the Pi, and perhaps in the process remove the slight lack of 'sophistication' you currently perceive.

Marco.

NRG

02-04-2015, 16:09

No, waiting for them to come back into stock, this is USB to SPDIF to Bushmaster MKII

Marco

02-04-2015, 16:13

Ah, that could explain it. Prepare for a shock then when you try the IQ-Audio DAC! ;)

Marco.

The Barbarian

02-04-2015, 19:40

Just one question.

Would it be possible to use a High Resolution Technologies streamer with this Raspberry Pi 2 instead of the IQ DAC?

http://www.hirestech.com/product/?pid=128

Marco

02-04-2015, 19:46

Dunno, dude. However, I'm sure there will be plenty of folks who do :)

Any reason why you like that specific device?

Marco.

vacdac

02-04-2015, 20:50

Just one question.

Would it be possible to use a High Resolution Technologies streamer with this Raspberry Pi 2 instead of the IQ DAC?

http://www.hirestech.com/product/?pid=128

Dunno, dude. However, I'm sure there will be plenty of folks who do :)

Any reason why you like that specific device?

Marco.

Bit of a misnomer in the name of the HRT streamer it is in fact a straightforward USB DAC. So yeah quite suitable for use with a Pi I'd have thought.

Thank EFF you got there with setting the H/W output correctly Marco so you could use it with your pre. Surprised it took over 500 posts to realise that you were prolly throwing bits*(* losing resolution as you dial t' vol down) away with S/W vol control. A few people touched on this & I was surprised that your rather scrummy Pre was not delivering with the Pi. I'm sure it sounds great now.

Marco

02-04-2015, 21:04

Hi Chris,

It was essentially a gain issue, as I'd disabled the hardware setting in Volumio, without applying a high enough setting, making the Croft sound 'soft' and lacking in dynamic impact, which of course wasn't happening when I was using only the digital volume control itself. Increasing the gain levels has completely sorted that out, and now through the Croft, the Pi/DAC sounds stunning.

Trouble is, nowhere does it tell you that's what you have to do when using an active preamp. Apparently, you're just supposed to 'know'! :doh:

Marco.

vacdac

02-04-2015, 21:14

Nice one Marco, yeah I knew it was a gain structure thang, but not being a Pi user didn't know how to adjust this, although from the Pi threads on t' Wam I knew a lot of folks were using active pre's quite happily.

It's a whole new learning curve, but you seem to be taking to it fine. I find a tablet makes for a nicer control interface than a lappy, so this could be summat to consider too.

Marco

02-04-2015, 21:41

Yeah, I suppose it could. However, I'm quite happy using my Apple Macbook Pro (with 15" Retina screen), which is both a joy to use, has superb screen resolution, and is always 'by my side' at home! :)

Marco.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 12:18

Dunno, dude. However, I'm sure there will be plenty of folks who do :)

Any reason why you like that specific device?

Marco.

Because i tried a lot of DAC's & streamers with FLAC's . I thought the HRT sounded best, i have one of the very first ones to come into the country after borrowing a friends in New York.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 12:25

Tim

03-04-2015, 12:47

Goodness André, didn't see that one coming ;)

Marco

03-04-2015, 12:47

Because i tried a lot of DAC's & streamers with FLAC's . I thought the HRT sounded best, i have one of the very first ones to come into the country after borrowing a friends in New York.

Fair do's.... Although, bear in mind that one of the major advantages of the IQ-Audio DAC (apart from the fact it sounds so good) is that future updated/upgraded DACs will be retrofittable directly into the Pi. They will simply clip in, and so you'll just pull the old one out and pop the new one in. Simples! :)

Therefore, as new technology is constantly evolving, and sound improvements gained as a result of that, you're future-proofed and guaranteed always to have the best sounding DAC.

With any other set-up (using a fixed DAC), as technology advances, you'll be left with an obsolete DAC pretty quickly, which as an aside, is one very valid reason for folks not to spend silly money on some overpriced 'audiophile badged' FBA source (fitted with a fixed DAC), which similarly will very quickly become obsolete!

:exactly:

Marco.

Marco

03-04-2015, 12:49

Ok ive bought a: Raspberry Pi B+, CAMAC Mini WiFi Wireless USB Adapter Dongle, Sandisk 8GB, Class 10 Micro SD card, CAMAC Clear Transparent top and bottom Case Box Enclosure.

Can someone point me to a good power supply till i get around to making one?

No way on earth will this ever be a main Source for me.. I bought it for a reason..

Excellent - and like Tim, I didn't see that one coming!! :eek:

However, unless I've missed it, I can't see a DAC in the kit you've listed, so what are you using for that?

Marco.

NRG

03-04-2015, 12:54

Adding a battery to power the RPi makes a very worthwhile difference. I'm using the 5v out on the Ankara battery that also powers the BM MKII. I wanted to power just the USB SPDIF converter to see if that alone would make an improvement but the RPi won't recognise it so the whole lot got the battery treatment. I'm struggling to tell the difference now to my modded SB....

The SB is powered with dual ALSWR super regs and re clocked with an XO-3 Tent Audio clock plus a load of other circuit mods...I think I'll use the SB PSU to power the RPi and see how that sounds, at the moment I feel it's a little 'soft' and a touch over smooth in comparisons...it's a mighty close call though!

Marco

03-04-2015, 12:59

Interesting on the battery. I'll defo be giving that one a go.

Which one is a little soft and smooth, Neal?

Marco.

Oldpinkman

03-04-2015, 13:26

Interesting on the battery. I'll defo be giving that one a go.

Which one is a little soft and smooth, Neal?

Marco.

Just plug in that battery Marco - it'll be the best tenner you spent. It will lift performance shed-loads, and you can then go on a mission to find tiny incremental improvements from there. But that battery will take you a big leap ;)

NRG

03-04-2015, 13:32

+1 to that!

Interesting on the battery. I'll defo be giving that one a go.

Which one is a little soft and smooth, Neal?

Marco.

The RPi Marco, it could be a slight difference in Volume, The difference is so small I really should level match just to eliminate the possibility.

Oh, I've just tried some different Ethernet cables, UTP 5e, STP 5e and 6a....I couldn't detect any difference, others may have more success....

Qwin

03-04-2015, 14:35

Macca - "Marco I know you are not a digital fanboy and I don't want to de-rail the discussion but so called 'high resolution' files are nothing of the sort. It's marketing-speak. They are no higher resolution that the redbook cds you own. If they sound better it is because they are different masters. That's all. I agree that alone is a good reason to have the facility to play them".

I'm not sure where you are going with this Macca or what you base this notion on?

As far as I am aware, from reading the high res info on music sites, Recording Studios work at higher resolution than Red book, a lot higher. The tracks are dumbed down to suit CD format.

As I understand it, some of the high res files available for sale are claimed to be studio resolution/exact copies, or reduced by degrees, hence different size files available for the same track. All the original digital masters are high resolution.

There are some inferior upscaled files doing the rounds, but generaly its true high res and that is what has got me interested in upgrading my FBA system, to be able to handle them.

It is said some of the studio quality files can take up to 4 hours to down load, depending on speed available, I hapened upon a thread where this was being discused as a problem and one guy had made four attempts at downloading before he managed to get a complete useable file.

This size is probably taking things too far for current computer hardware, even with multi terarbyte discs available at reasonable money.
Somewhere between Red book and this very high level will be a level that is compact enough but with a noticeable improvement in SQ.
Even 24bit 96kHz would be a step in the right direction.

Marco

03-04-2015, 16:14

The RPi Marco, it could be a slight difference in Volume, The difference is so small I really should level match just to eliminate the possibility.

That will defo be the case. The output of the Pi/IQ Audio DAC (claimed as being 2v) is definitely much lower than that of my Sony DAC, which was obvious the other day when I switched from using the former, just to see how I perceived the sound of my CDP, after many hours of using the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC.

I had to turn the sound down quite a bit, when listening to CD, compared with the Pi. Therefore, definitely level-match things before doing any direct comparisons, as otherwise the Pi will sound 'soft'.

Oh, I've just tried some different Ethernet cables, UTP 5e, STP 5e and 6a....I couldn't detect any difference, others may have more success....

No worries. Did you try the ones I recommended, shown here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171728903258?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

There seems to be something different about the construction of those particular cables, which explains why I'm hearing an indisputable sonic improvement with them :)

Marco.

Marco

03-04-2015, 17:05

As far as I am aware, from reading the high res info on music sites, Recording Studios work at higher resolution than Red book, a lot higher. The tracks are dumbed down to suit CD format.

As I understand it, some of the high res files available for sale are claimed to be studio resolution/exact copies, or reduced by degrees, hence different size files available for the same track. All the original digital masters are high resolution.

Yes, that is also my understanding, and so I'm convinced that (mastering aside) genuine high-resolution recordings offer a significant sonic step up from those released on bog-standard CD.

Marco.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 18:44

Mine is all bought & just waiting for Windows 10 to come along..

Marco

03-04-2015, 18:45

Which DAC are you going to use with your Pi?

Marco.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 18:46

Got the HRT Streamer

What i dont get is why you are using a Laptop to control it!

Marco

03-04-2015, 19:18

Okay-dokes.... I'm only using my laptop now to operate Volumio, which is a superb interface with which to access the music contained in my hard-drives (NAS box) :)

Marco.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 19:23

I plan planting one in an aluminium enclosure with the HDD's non fan cooling. Plant the HRT PCB & Bespoke PSU in an enclosure aswell. But i want Windows 10 operator.. I don't want the enclosures resembling a Tower in any way.

brian2957

03-04-2015, 19:35

You comin over to the dark side too Andr'e :D

Marco

03-04-2015, 19:36

Sounds good. I don't use winDOZE anymore - I'm an Apple fanboy now! :eyebrows:

Marco.

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 19:38

You comin over to the dark side too Andr'e :DNo i just listern to quite a lot of stuff that is only available on down load..so have no option but to use files for this music. tbh ive been using the HRT streamer with laptop & outboard 2TB HD for around 3 years now.

Tim

03-04-2015, 19:47

tbh ive been using the HRT streamer with laptop & outboard 2TB HD for around 3 years now.
I've still got my HRT Music Streamer II+ André, I think they are superb for the money and I use it everyday in my office system. I probably listen to this more than my main system actually!

brian2957

03-04-2015, 19:49

No i just listern to quite a lot of stuff that is only available on down load..so have no option but to use files for this music. tbh ive been using the HRT streamer with laptop & outboard 2TB HD for around 3 years now.
OK enjoy mate .

The Barbarian

03-04-2015, 20:51

:grouphug:

struth

03-04-2015, 21:15

Got an HRT streamer myself. started using it again with my lappy upstairs now that I dont have a stereo there. have to say that it still outperforms many higher priced models

ReggieB

03-04-2015, 23:46

The output of the Pi/IQ Audio DAC (claimed as being 2v) is definitely much lower than that of my Sony DAC

Marco. Have a look at my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37805-Rasberry-Pi-nothing-nothing-nothing-Gor-Blimey&p=635656#post635656

The output of the IQAudIO DAC has the potential of 2v output, but a setting in linux limits it to 1v, as highlighted to me by IQAudIO here (https://twitter.com/IQ_audio/status/584064180413661186). However, there is a mixer app (already installed in the volumio image) that you can tweak to improve the situation.

Audio Advent

04-04-2015, 01:19

I don't want the enclosures resembling a Tower in any way.

A tower on it's side no longer looks like a tower and vice versa. Problem solved for any shape..

Marco

04-04-2015, 07:44

The output of the IQAudIO DAC has the potential of 2v output, but a setting in linux limits it to 1v, as highlighted to me by IQAudIO here (https://twitter.com/IQ_audio/status/584064180413661186). However, there is a mixer app (already installed in the volumio image) that you can tweak to improve the situation.

Hi Rob,

Thanks, mate. Yes I read that, but (without someone providing a simple step-by-step guide on how to do it - if you fancy doing that, bearing in mind I don't use a Windows machine?) I wouldn't have a clue how to adjust things! Linux? I haven't got a scooby-doo... :confused:

Besides, with the levels on Volumo set at 96 or 97 (depending on how 'hot' tracks have been recorded), using my Croft preamp, the output of the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC is the same as my CDP (or very close to it), and there are no obvious problems. I'm certainly not short of gain.

However, it would be interesting to see what happens when the output has been increased to 2v, but someone would need take me through the process slowly.

Marco.

Bourneendboy

04-04-2015, 08:02

I currently use Google Play Music rather than Spotify, am I going to be able to access this with the Pi?

Cheers,
Bill

mikeyb

04-04-2015, 08:29

I currently use Google Play Music rather than Spotify, am I going to be able to access this with the Pi?

Cheers,
Bill
Hi,

BubbleUPnP app can stream Google Play Music to the Pi 😉

You just choose the Pi from the Renderer menu within Bubble, Google Play Music is found within the 'Cloud' menu on Bubble.

Pretty sure other upnp apps would be able to do the same.

Mike.

ReggieB

04-04-2015, 08:30

Yes I read that, but (without someone providing a simple step-by-step guide on how to do it - if you fancy doing that, bearing in mind I don't use a Windows machine?) I wouldn't have a clue how to adjust things! Linux? I haven't got a scooby-doo... :confused:

Besides, with the levels on Volumo set at 96 or 97 (depending on how 'hot' tracks have been recorded), using my Croft preamp, the output of the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC is the same as my CDP (or very close to it), and there are no obvious problems. I'm certainly not short of gain.

The Apple O/S is a UNIX based system just like Linux, so it should be just as easy to SSH into the Pi. If you can open a command prompt, you should just need to use this command:

ssh root@volumio.local

You may get a warning pop up about not trusting the certificate. That's fine in this case where you're connecting to a known local host. Just add the response that will let you carry on.

You should then be prompted for a password. Enter the password: volumio

You'll now be connected to the command shell of the Pi, and any commands you run now, get executed on the Pi. So you can now enter:

alsamixer

And you should be presented with the mixer screen, which looks something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UGB7Pkr18NY/VR7u6yyYaWI/AAAAAAAAAfI/ewBwXmCg244/w559-h361-no/AlsaMixer.png

You navigate around this screen using the cursor keys (arrow keys) on your keyboard. Left and right to change the setting your on (bottom of screen), and up and down to change values and levels.

You can also alter things using the F buttons as shown at the top of the screen. So for example F3 changes the view to just showing Playback settings.

When you are done just hit the Esc key on you keyboard to exit alsamixer. Then enter
exit to leave the SSH shell.

So in summary:

ssh root@volumio.local
Accept certificate warning if prompted
Enter password: volumio
alsamixer
-- have a play with the mixer settings
Esc to exist
exit

Marco

04-04-2015, 09:04

Thanks for this, Rob! However...

The Apple O/S is a UNIX based system just like Linux, so it should be just as easy to SSH into the Pi. If you can open a command prompt...

Whoa, slow down... How do I "open a command prompt"? Remember that you're dealing with someone who only ever uses his laptop for posting on here, sending and receiving emails and buying stuff on ebay! ;)

Please bear that in mind, and so what may be 'obvious' to you, will be double-Dutch to me...

Marco.

Desmo

04-04-2015, 09:08

Thanks for this, Rob! However...

Whoa, slow down... How do I "open a command prompt"? Remember that you're dealing with someone who only ever uses his laptop for posting on here, sending and receiving emails and buying stuff on ebay! ;)

Please bear that in mind, and so what may be 'obvious' to you, will be double-Dutch to me...

Marco.

ever heard of google? this is the first hit I got: http://www.wikihow.com/Get-to-the-Command-Line-on-a-Mac that should answer your question.

mikeyb

04-04-2015, 09:12

Hi,

On my Win7 pc I use a programme called PuTTy (cyberduck can also be used) and you log in using the Pi's ip address and then the username usually root and password for squeezeplug it's nosoup4u, volumio will be different obviously, this gets you into the Pi and you then type in copy and paste commands into the screen. Just like the old days of DOS.
Mike.

mikeyb

04-04-2015, 09:16

ever heard of google?

Google is your friend 😉

My dad keeps asking for pc help and it usually takes seconds for me to find the answer, mind you he does have an excuse he's 77 but for his ages he's pretty pc savvy.

Mike.

Marco

04-04-2015, 09:27

And you should be presented with the mixer screen, which looks something like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UGB7Pkr18NY/VR7u6yyYaWI/AAAAAAAAAfI/ewBwXmCg244/w559-h361-no/AlsaMixer.png

You navigate around this screen using the cursor keys (arrow keys) on your keyboard. Left and right to change the setting your on (bottom of screen), and up and down to change values and levels.

Ok, (after following the instructions on Google on how to open a command prompt, lol - thanks Graeme), I've now accessed the above. Do I simply put the playback levels at 100%, so that all three 'coloured bars' (as shown above as 'FIR inte') are fully lit up into the red?

If so, does that mean the DAC is now set to output 2v? :)

Only the first bar on the left was fully lit up, when I first went in. The other two, on the right, were blank.

Marco.

mikeyb

04-04-2015, 09:33

NRG

04-04-2015, 09:44

RTFM Folks! :D

See page 20 here Marco: http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf

You have Playback and Playback Boost to set. Set PlayBack to 100%, it enables the 2V or +6db output. Playback Boost adds an additional 0.8db if you need it say if the output doesn't quite match your Sony...

mikeyb

04-04-2015, 09:45

Manuals are for girls lol.

Mike.

Rothchild

04-04-2015, 09:47

Ok, (after following the instructions on Google on how to open a command prompt, lol - thanks Graeme), I've now accessed the above. Do I simply put the playback levels at 100%, so that all three 'coloured bars' (as shown above as 'FIR inte') are fully lit up into the red?

If so, does that mean the DAC is now set to output 2v? :)

Only the first bar on the left was fully lit up, when I first went in. The other two, on the right, were blank.

Marco.

You need to set PCM to 86% (0dBFS - no digital gain or attenuation)
Playback and Playback boost are the ones that should be adjusted to suit (according to the input sensitivity of your pre) this will be an ears and brains activity. I'd suggest setting the pre to a sensible level and then winding up the 'playback' control, if you get all the way to the top and your system is still quiet (compared to what you'd expect for the pre volume setting) then proceed to winding up the playback boost control too (there's another couple of milivolts of gain on this slider) you'll want to be listening for any distortion that might be coming from overloading the inputs to your pre, if there is none then you're on to a winner.

The fact that those bars were blank may help answer why you were having the low volume issue earlier.

Marco

04-04-2015, 09:49

Hi Neal,

Yes, but from left to right, which bars represent what? It's unclear in Alsamixer, which is which.

If you could tell me, from left to right, which bars represent Playback (and thus the 2v output), and which ones Playback Boost, that would be great! :)

Incidentally, if Playback is represented by the bar on the left, then it was already set to full...

Marco.

NRG

04-04-2015, 09:54

OK Under the three columns there are Blue boxes, the First PCM is the master vol control, the next Column is the Playback setting and the last is the Playback Boost setting. As you switch between each using the cursor keys the Yellow text near the top of the screen (where is says Item: ) changes to let you know which setting you are adjusting.

The manual could be a bit clearer with some arrows, took me a while to interpret the screen shots!

Marco

04-04-2015, 10:01

Ok, got it! Awesome... :thumbsup:

So how do you subtly alter the sound of the DAC, as referred to earlier by Rob?

Marco.

NRG

04-04-2015, 10:03

Post #600? What you are doing above is what Rob was suggesting....

Marco

04-04-2015, 10:06

I thought that was just gain adjustment? If I read him correctly, you can also subtly change the sonic signature/tone of the DAC?

Marco.

The Barbarian

04-04-2015, 10:06

I hope this aint a crafty way of using filters :eyebrows:

Marco

04-04-2015, 10:07

It's a glorified graphic equaliser, dude! :D

Marco.

The Barbarian

04-04-2015, 10:08

:drool:

NRG

04-04-2015, 10:10

Ah! yes gotcha, indeed you can Marco, there are several filters to choose from to suit your tastes...

Marco

04-04-2015, 10:23

So how does one access and use these filters? :)

Btw, I've discovered that altering the 'PCM' level in Alsamixer (master volume control) achieves the same result as increasing the playback volume in the Volumio web interface, playback section.

Therefore, if you're using Alsamixer, only the last two bars, controlling playback and playback boost, are really relevant, if you're already using the Volumio web interface for accessing your music library, and can thus control the 'master volume' from the playback section there.

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2015, 11:12

:drool:

Yeah, time to sling the HRT! :D

;)

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2015, 11:55

So how does one access and use these filters?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Anyone?

Marco.

NRG

04-04-2015, 12:04

Hi Marco, can you select the blue 'DSP Prog' box and change the setting with the up/dwn arrow keys? If not you can select different filters from Volumio in the Playback menu AFAIR....

Marco

04-04-2015, 12:15

Yes I can. I thought it was that, but I didn't want to bugger about with anything until someone confirmed it. I have to be very careful, as if I get out of my depth, I wouldn't know how to fix it!

Anyway, I've tried the various DSP settings (adjusted whilst listening to music), but it doesn't seem to make any difference.... I'll have a closer listen later and report back. However, the biggest improvement for me has been having the ability to 'max-out' the Playback and Playback Boost settings, using Alsamixer, and thus fine-tune the gain structure of the IQ-Audio DAC, in conjunction with my preamp.

That has resulted in a notable improvement in SQ, together with overall 'musicality', somewhat like the effect of moving from using a phonostage that doesn't quite have enough gain to optimise the performance of an ultra-low output MC cartridge, to one that has the requisite gain to allow optimum playback quality.

In short, very well worth doing! Therefore, my thanks go to all who've helped in that process :cool:

Marco.

ReggieB

04-04-2015, 13:43

altering the 'PCM' level in Alsamixer (master volume control) achieves the same result as increasing the playback volume in the Volumio web interface, playback section.

Therefore, if you're using Alsamixer, only the last two bars, controlling playback and playback boost, are really relevant, if you're already using the Volumio web interface for accessing your music library, and can thus control the 'master volume' from the playback section there.

That's right. You only need Alsamixer to change the playback and playback boost levels.

I find the filters only make a subtle change to the sound, but it is there. My mother-in-law is staying, so first thing this morning I was listening via my headphone amp and AKG 701s. With them a different filter sounded better. (can't remember which one at the moment).

Marco

04-04-2015, 14:17

Hi Rob

Yes, there are *very* subtle differences effected by the various DSP settings, which aren't obvious on first listening, rather like the 'Sound Quality Tweaks', available in the System settings section in Volumio, where you have the choice of ACX, Buscia, etc (and where I have chosen ACX).

Having listened a little more intently now to the various DSP settings in Alsamixer, I've settled on 'Ringing-less Low Latency FIR', which to my ears, marginally seems to produce the most natural sound. I've also settled on using Playback and Playback Boost settings at max, with level 96 on the PCM 'master volume', although that it somewhat recording dependent.

This has now matched the output level of my Sony DAC and is producing a truly STUNNING (AND MASSIVE) SOUND, in conjunction with my Croft preamp, significantly better than I had before - and what I had before was bloody good!!! :eek: :eek:

Marco.

NRG

04-04-2015, 15:00

Great you have got that sorted out Marco.

I've gone as far as I wanted with mine at the moment, will now wait for the IQ boards to come into stock. Now I've had more time to compare against my SB the differences are seemingly greater, the SB is more engaging over time...hard to describe exactly but it just comes across being more natural and refined. I hope the IQ DAC reverses that!

Marco

04-04-2015, 15:02

I'm confident it will. Does your SB use a linear PSU?

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2015, 15:16

Just one thing, Mark...

Playback and Playback boost are the ones that should be adjusted to suit (according to the input sensitivity of your pre) this will be an ears and brains activity. I'd suggest setting the pre to a sensible level and then winding up the 'playback' control, if you get all the way to the top and your system is still quiet (compared to what you'd expect for the pre volume setting) then proceed to winding up the playback boost control too (there's another couple of milivolts of gain on this slider)...

I've found that adjusting both the playback and playback boost levels, using the up and down arrows on my keyboard, doesn't allow for any incremental adjustment: it's either all or nothing... The only incremental adjustment available, via using the up and down arrows on the keyboard, is with the PCM (master volume) setting.

Is that normal?

Marco.

Marco

04-04-2015, 20:24

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Anyone? Rob? :)

Btw, after further experimentation I've now adjusted things on Alsamixer so that only Playback has been set to max. Playback boost has been set to zero, as otherwise I was getting a little distortion.

One other little tweak (within the Volumio web interface, under System Settings) is to disable everything listed under the 'Services Management' section (Airplay, UPNP Control, UPNP/DNLA Indexing and DNLA Library Server), as that reduces the amount of processing taking place and improves sound quality.

Marco.

Rothchild

04-04-2015, 21:28

:popcorn: :popcorn:

Anyone? Rob? :)

Btw, after further experimentation I've now adjusted things on Alsamixer so that only Playback has been set to max. Playback boost has been set to zero, as otherwise I was getting a little distortion.

Marco.

As I'd suggested might be the case. Glad to hear you've got on top of the settings. I note you're running the PCM volume at 96 rather than 86 (which would be the the 'un-tampered with' setting), in theory at least if you ratcheted down the pcm to 86 you would be getting 'bit perfect' translation and the 0.8dBv of gain available from the playback boost would allow you to make up the difference in the analogue domain. It's not clear from the guidance that Gordon gave if the system goes up to +2dBv on Playback with an additional 0.8dB of gain on playback boost or if turning both up gives you the +2dBv of gain.

Marco

04-04-2015, 21:47

Hi Marc,

As I'd suggested might be the case. Glad to hear you've got on top of the settings. I note you're running the PCM volume at 96 rather than 86 (which would be the the 'un-tampered with' setting), in theory at least if you ratcheted down the pcm to 86 you would be getting 'bit perfect' translation and the 0.8dBv of gain available from the playback boost would allow you to make up the difference in the analogue domain.

Yes, I've tried it that way, but it doesn't seem to be as good as leaving the playback boost off and using a higher PCM setting.

To obtain the same output from the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC, as I get from my CDP [i.e level-matched], the PCM setting needs to be 96. Any less than that, even with the playback boost on, results in a softer and less 'punchy' and wide open sound, not to mention significantly less output than my CDP provides, at the same volume setting on my preamp.

You didn't answer my point about not being able to adjust playback or playback boost in increments. With both here (in Alsamixer), it's either 'all or nothing'. Is that how it's supposed to be?

It's not clear from the guidance that Gordon gave if the system goes up to +2dBv on Playback with an additional 0.8dB of gain on playback boost or if turning both up gives you the +2dBv of gain.

Indeed. I'll ask Gordon about that one.

Marco.

Rothchild

05-04-2015, 05:59

Well, if it sounds good, it is good.

It's a known phenomena that louder sounds better (even by tiny increments) so you're right to aim at level matching, but I'm interested to know if what you're hearing is the sweetspot of the pre input, or if level matching by turning up the pre output (to get you back to the right volume) makes up the difference. Presumably with a quality pre the gain there should be better than the gain in the pi.

Question not answered cos I don't know, sorry! Sounds odd through, could just be a matter of using the right key to control it?

Marco

05-04-2015, 06:14

...but I'm interested to know if what you're hearing is the sweetspot of the pre input, or if level matching by turning up the pre output (to get you back to the right volume) makes up the difference.

I've read that about four or five times now, but I don't really get what you mean?

Question not answered cos I don't know, sorry! Sounds odd through, could just be a matter of using the right key to control it?

Perhaps, although it's the up and down arrows on the keyboard for adjusting the PCM level, so it seems odd that Playback and Playback boost would be controlled differently... Also, a friend trying it yesterday (with a Pi/IQ-Audio DAC) reported the same thing.

Marco.

Rothchild

05-04-2015, 07:49

I've read that about four or five times now, but I don't really get what you mean?

Marco.

I'm presuming that your pre has a volume knob on the front of it? If so, what I'm saying is that rather than level matching the cdp with the volume knob at the same place, take the lower input from the pi and make up for it by turning the volume knob on the pre up until the levels in the room are the same as with the cdp.

Obviously the output level of the Pi is driving the input level of the pre, there will be an optimum value for this - too low and the pre has to do too much work, too high and the pre inputs will start to distort. Given that an amount of this is about satisfying an audiophile tendency, I'm thinking that having the pi set up to do no digital gain changing but pushing the analogue output level and then making up the difference with the expensive gain in your pre-amp would be preferable than 'messing with your bits' (via the PCM control).

Unfortunately this will make comparing a little harder as it will be difficult to match the sound level in the room and most research seems to show that even with tiny differences in volume listeners will prefer the louder source.

ReggieB

05-04-2015, 09:22

I've found that adjusting both the playback and playback boost levels, using the up and down arrows on my keyboard, doesn't allow for any incremental adjustment: it's either all or nothing... The only incremental adjustment available, via using the up and down arrows on the keyboard, is with the PCM (master volume) setting.

Is that normal?

Yes. I get the same.

The alsamixer settings are a tweakfest. You're not going to break anything, so have a play and use what best suits your ears.

Marco

05-04-2015, 09:45

I'm presuming that your pre has a volume knob on the front of it? If so, what I'm saying is that rather than level matching the cdp with the volume knob at the same place, take the lower input from the pi and make up for it by turning the volume knob on the pre up until the levels in the room are the same as with the cdp.

Obviously the output level of the Pi is driving the input level of the pre, there will be an optimum value for this - too low and the pre has to do too much work, too high and the pre inputs will start to distort. Given that an amount of this is about satisfying an audiophile tendency, I'm thinking that having the pi set up to do no digital gain changing but pushing the analogue output level and then making up the difference with the expensive gain in your pre-amp would be preferable than 'messing with your bits' (via the PCM control).

Unfortunately this will make comparing a little harder as it will be difficult to match the sound level in the room and most research seems to show that even with tiny differences in volume listeners will prefer the louder source.

Ok, I get what you mean now. I will experiment a little further with it.

However, in my system, there's quite a discrepancy between the output of my Sony DAC and that of the IQ Audio, equating to five clicks on the volume knob of my preamp [I have a 100k DACT stepped attenuator on the Croft - not sure of the db difference between each click, but there are 23 available positions], if the PCM level is set at 86 (with playback in Alsamixer at full), and consequently it makes the Pi/DAC sound somewhat 'soft' and anaemic in comparison.

Level-matching the Pi/DAC with the Sony, by setting the PCM level to 96, gives the former the required 'boost', in order for it to sound as 'big'/ballsy (whatever word you wish to describe it) as my Sony CDP/DAC, when playing CDs. What you're suggesting would probably work if the output/loudness discrepancy between the two sources in question wasn't as large.

Do you see where I'm coming from? :)

Marco.

AlanS

05-04-2015, 09:46

Hi Marc,

Yes, I've tried it that way, but it doesn't seem to be as good as leaving the playback boost off and using a higher PCM setting.

To obtain the same output from the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC, as I get from my CDP [i.e level-matched], the PCM setting needs to be 96. Any less than that, even with the playback boost on, results in a softer and less 'punchy' and wide open sound, not to mention significantly less output than my CDP provides, at the same volume setting on my preamp.

You didn't answer my point about not being able to adjust playback or playback boost in increments. With both here (in Alsamixer), it's either 'all or nothing'. Is that how it's supposed to be?

Indeed. I'll ask Gordon about that one.

Marco.

My experience of setting those level bars was that I convinced myself that the red indicated distortion and I adjusted so no red showed. Level dropped but it sounded sweeter than loads of red showing. Made sense too RED danger, just below on the edge of danger.

Over and out

Marco

05-04-2015, 09:47

Yes. I get the same.

The alsamixer settings are a tweakfest. You're not going to break anything, so have a play and use what best suits your ears.

Ok, that's good to know. Any idea what the 'Auto Mut' thing is supposed to do?

Marco.

Marco

05-04-2015, 09:49

My experience of setting those level bars was that I convinced myself that the red indicated distortion and I adjusted so no red showed. Level dropped but it sounded sweeter than loads of red showing. Made sense too RED danger, just below on the edge of danger.

The problem is, Alan, that there is no incremental adjustment available, enabling you to move those bars (other than the PCM one) to anything other than full-on. Using the 'up' arrow on either Playback or Playback Boost, simply results in setting either to maximum.

So how did you adjust them until no red showed? :scratch:

Also, there's no audible distortion here, with the Playback level on full and Playback Boost off.

Marco.

The Barbarian

05-04-2015, 13:48

If you get this Raspberry/DAC right it should sound better than your CDP.. The past experiments with lossless files has brought me to a simular conclusion

Yeah, time to sling the HRT! :D

;)

Marco.

Well naturally i will be ordering that DAC for the Rasper see what gives between the two.. Where's the best place to source this DAC btw?

Marco

05-04-2015, 17:03

Here, dude, but I think they're out of stock just now for a few weeks (lots of folk waiting for one): https://www.tindie.com/stores/IQaudIO/?ref=offsite_badges&utm_source=sellers_IQaudIO&utm_medium=badges&utm_campaign=badge_medium

Marco.

rectorydp

05-04-2015, 22:01

Just one thing, Mark...

I've found that adjusting both the playback and playback boost levels, using the up and down arrows on my keyboard, doesn't allow for any incremental adjustment: it's either all or nothing... The only incremental adjustment available, via using the up and down arrows on the keyboard, is with the PCM (master volume) setting.

Is that normal?

Marco.

I've not been able to drop in on this discussion for a while so I am not really up on what is going on. However, my reading of the chip spec was that these settings are either on or off so what you are seeing is to be expected. Playback is the analogue control and will either give you 1v or 2v rms max output. You should just set that to the level that works best with your preamp. The boost appears to give an additional gain of 0.8dB (according to the IQaudIO docs) and is either on or off.

Marco

05-04-2015, 22:37

Hi David,

Good to see you popping in again :)

However, my reading of the chip spec was that these settings are either on or off so what you are seeing is to be expected.

Handy to have that confirmed. Dunno then how Alan S (apparently) managed to adjust them incrementally, so that the red part of the bars didn't show... I think he was having us on! ;)

Playback is the analogue control and will either give you 1v or 2v rms max output. You should just set that to the level that works best with your preamp.

So, in effect, off is 1v, and on is 2v RMS output (as Playback can only be either on or off)?

The boost appears to give an additional gain of 0.8dB (according to the IQaudIO docs) and is either on or off.

TBH, I can hear very little difference with that on or off... It's the adjustment of Playback that makes the significant and worthwhile difference. However, I've settled on the boost being off, and have dropped the PCM level back to 95 (from 96), which is where from now on I'll be using it.

Marco.

Ashmore

05-04-2015, 22:54

Marco

05-04-2015, 23:38

Well naturally i will be ordering that DAC for the Rasper see what gives between the two.. Where's the best place to source this DAC btw?

Btw, I forgot to say, don't let the fact that the Tindie website is priced in Dollars put you off (as I know you don't like importing stuff from abroad). The DAC is actually shipped from Glasgow (UK), just as it says:

Ships within 1 day
United Kingdom

:)

Marco.

P.S Sorry, Simon, can't help you with that one. However, I'm sure that someone who can will soon.

tubehunter

06-04-2015, 07:12

As regarding Power supplies for the Pi.

I have built a few various linear power supplies with regulators and even pre tracking regulator types but still come back to using the Raspberry Pi designed smps.
This goes against my normal experience but much prefer the sound when using it:scratch:

Regarding IQAudio Pi-Dac+ volume settings

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/volumio%20levels_zpsiptq5uah.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/volumio%20levels_zpsiptq5uah.jpg.html)

NRG

06-04-2015, 09:14

Hi

Very interesting thread. Forgive me if this has been covered already (I got through 30 pages before composing), but is the emerging view that the pi2+IQ dac would give an SB Touch/Caiman mk1 setup a run for its money (noting that both have longdog linear PSUs and the caiman had a full Jimmy Drips workover)?

If I were tempted to test the water presumably I could turn the Pi into a Squeezeplug and use it just like the Touch (ie stream from the vortexbox and internet using LMS over my wired network).

Would either Longdog Linear work with the pi (I am an electronics numpty)?

Simon

Although I've not heard the IQ DAC yet as I'm waiting for stock to come in there is a strong hope that it will outperform the Touch, however, the proof as all was is in the pudding. The Touch is 5v same as the RPi so Nick's lovely PSU's will still work, same amperage rating as well I think.

Squeeze plug runs squeeze lite the audio player and has LMS installed, I've not tried disabling the inbuilt LMS and pointing squeeze lite to my NAS....something to try later.....

Edit: just tried it and yes LMS on my NAS finds the Squeezelite on the RPi....

WAD62

06-04-2015, 13:37

If you only want to use Squeezelite player, do you have particular reason not to use the picoreplayer?

...none other than stupidity :doh:

After 3 or 4 days faffing around with different Squeezeplug distros, and different WiFi dongles, I still failed miserably to connect via WiFi, I could see the WiFi connection IP address, but as soon as the LAN was disconnected the WiFi connection died too...

So I tried PiCorePlayer, like anything Triode's involved with it works well...

Pi 2 + IQaudi DAC+ now installed in the kitchen, and happily running in synchronisation with my Touch & MDAC (living-room), I'll let it burn in and report back...:)

FYI, I didn't get the Edimax dongle to work even with PiCorePlayer, but have had success with a 'Plugable(Realtec)' one instead...

NRG

06-04-2015, 14:22

The RPi seems to be quite fussy over what WiFi dongle it likes!

Marco

06-04-2015, 14:43

The angle of the dangle was always critical to the wangle, in many 'applications'..... :eyebrows:

Marco,

struth

06-04-2015, 14:44

The RPi seems to be quite fussy over what WiFi dongle it likes!

as was the wife:eyebrows:

The Barbarian

06-04-2015, 14:46

I bought a Camac IEEE802.11 for it..

Marco

06-04-2015, 14:55

As regarding Power supplies for the Pi.

I have built a few various linear power supplies with regulators and even pre tracking regulator types but still come back to using the Raspberry Pi designed smps.
This goes against my normal experience but much prefer the sound when using it:scratch:

I know, but let's see what Paul Hynes can come up with...

Regarding IQAudio Pi-Dac+ volume settings

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/volumio%20levels_zpsiptq5uah.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/volumio%20levels_zpsiptq5uah.jpg.html)

Good to know. However, I really can't hear much difference with the Playback Boost disabled or enabled. Can you? :)

Marco.

WAD62

06-04-2015, 18:18

After fannying about with the ALSAMIXER I've now settled on the following settings...

PCM = 100%
Playback = 0%
Boost = 100% (the mini-1 needs a bit of help...perhaps)

...Starting to sound significantly better than the SBTouch/HiFimeDIY U2 combo it replaced ;)

Marco

06-04-2015, 18:24

WAD62

06-04-2015, 19:02

Hi Will,

Interesting... I guess whatever sounds good, sounds good. However, I'd be more inclined to follow the instructions from the manufacturer Dunc posted earlier, which outlines that both Playback and Playback Boost should be set to 100%, and then reduce the PCM level instead.

Btw, did you get the PM I sent (forwarded from Alan S)?

Marco.

Cheers for the PM, and to AlanS too...only just spotted, and replied to... :)

I started with 100%, 100%, 100% (PCM,Replay,Boost)

That soon turned out to be overcooked,,,Then 94%, 100%, 100%, as Dunc suggests, which was better...:)

But if one reads the documentation Replay is effectively a +6db switch, so I've turned it off, kept the 0.8db boost to give the mini-1 a little help, and put the PCM back to 100%...and it sounds like the previous settings, but I'd rather have the volume controls on 0 or 100%...helps my audio nervosa! ;)

So for clarity I'm using 100%, 0%, 100%...1437414375

Marco

06-04-2015, 20:01

Hey, whatever works, works :)

In my case, I need the IQ-Audio DAC to output the same 2v as my CDP, as otherwise it sounds somewhat 'limp' in comparison, so I have Playback on 100% (and also now Playback boost), with the PCM level varying from anything between 92 and 96, depending on how 'hot' (or otherwise) tracks have been recorded.

Marco.

WAD62

06-04-2015, 20:05

ReggieB

06-04-2015, 22:04

endless fettling entertainment ;)

Absolutely!

tubehunter

07-04-2015, 07:48

how hi can your hifi go?

http://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/babbageandpi/

Marco

07-04-2015, 07:52

Hehehehe.... Awesome! :D

Marco.

Frankyc2003

07-04-2015, 15:08

Guess what turned up on my desk today!

Marco's report has definitely tickled my fancy.
I spotted this on ebay last week, so immediately got hold of it…

http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz275/frankyc2003/Cyrus%208vs2/temporary_zpszmx2cjn9.jpg (http://s835.photobucket.com/user/frankyc2003/media/Cyrus%208vs2/temporary_zpszmx2cjn9.jpg.html)
:stalks:

This needs a PSU and the latest version of Volumio installed.
I have 300 Gigs of 'Hires' audio on a NAS waiting to be streamed.
Soon to follow with a quick review...

:eyebrows:

Ashmore

07-04-2015, 22:52

Although I've not heard the IQ DAC yet as I'm waiting for stock to come in there is a strong hope that it will outperform the Touch, however, the proof as all was is in the pudding. The Touch is 5v same as the RPi so Nick's lovely PSU's will still work, same amperage rating as well I think.....

Thanks Neal

Knowing my behaviour patterns I already know that I'm shortly going to buy a pi and dac! I wonder if anyone has experience of the amp too... I could see it being useful in a second system.

Marco

08-04-2015, 07:49

Nice one, guys. Hope the Pi ends up being suitably tasty for you! :)

Marco.

cyclopse

08-04-2015, 19:13

I am going to try it as well Marco. Amazon is a very good price for the Rasberry Pi by the way.

Think I will use my sons Lego for a temporary case. Hope IQ Audio have enough dacs coming through to satisfy the AOS demand! Will follow up your Ethernet cable recommendation also.

I hope to have battery power, Ethernet connection to access my NFS server to stream from desktop computer. Will take over from Popcorn Hour I currently use into my dac.

Regards

Steve

The Barbarian

08-04-2015, 21:45

are you guys buying the 512MB or the 1GB Version?

cyclopse

08-04-2015, 21:54

are you guys buying the 512MB or the 1GB Version?

I went for the 1gb of RAM Pi 2 for £29.99.

chris_s

09-04-2015, 12:19

the 1gb version is also Quad-core to boot so better all round!

this very latest model is referred to as the "Raspberry Pi 2 Model B" - spec here:-
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-2-model-b/

the 512mb predecessor is referred to as "Raspberry Pi 1 Model B+"

Hope that helps.

Chris.

Frankyc2003

09-04-2015, 12:28

the 512mb predecessor is referred to as "Raspberry Pi 1 Model B+"

I have this one and so far it works flawlessly with Volumio and RuneAudio.

I have to say that the fantastic simplicity of the setup process and the neatness of having the streamer and DAC in one handy small package is very seducing.
Don't be fooled by the apparent technical complexity. It is a really easy thing to setup.

Thanks again to Marco for such an enlightening discovery.

:cool:

Marco

09-04-2015, 15:37

You're very welcome, Francois, but don't thank me, as I didn't discover the Pi. Folks elsewhere and on other forums were using it long before I was.

I was just fortunate that two mates introduced me to it, and so got to hear it in my own system, where it blew me away, and as such became a no-brainer purchase! After hearing it, I then had to tell others on AoS how good it was, as indeed I always do when discovering a product that fits so well with the AoS 'SPPV ethos'...

In those circumstances, I'll always 'spread the good news', as it were, amongst the membership. Enjoy! :)

Marco.

cyclopse

09-04-2015, 19:28

I have this one and so far it works flawlessly with Volumio and RuneAudio.

I have to say that the fantastic simplicity of the setup process and the neatness of having the streamer and DAC in one handy small package is very seducing.
Don't be fooled by the apparent technical complexity. It is a really easy thing to setup.

Thanks again to Marco for such an enlightening discovery.

:cool:

I know it's early days but any observations on the sound this combination is making?

The Barbarian

09-04-2015, 21:26

Ive been playing tonight & im afraid ill be sticking with a lap top & HRT Streamer. ;)

struth

09-04-2015, 21:59

Ive been playing tonight & im afraid ill be sticking with a lap top & HRT Streamer. ;)

Not Like it Andre?

The Barbarian

09-04-2015, 22:14

Does nothing for me that the Lappy & HRT does. Less mess too. Im off down for a brand new Laptop tomorrow just for FLAC/Media Monkey playback..

Gave my mate the raspberry board & PSU this afternoon.

Frankyc2003

10-04-2015, 07:18

I know it's early days but any observations on the sound this combination is making?
The one thing i have really noticed so far is a greater separation between instruments than the rDac. So still very positive about the Pi still.

NRG

10-04-2015, 07:41

Does nothing for me that the Lappy & HRT does. Less mess too. Im off down for a brand new Laptop tomorrow just for FLAC/Media Monkey playback..

Gave my mate the raspberry board & PSU this afternoon.

How was it all connected up Andre? The output from the 3.5mm headphone jack is quite poor....an IQAudio DAC+ or HiFiBerry board would make things a lot neater...

Marco

10-04-2015, 08:18

Yeah, I think it's important to remember, certainly in terms of this thread, that what's being recommended here is the use of a particular combination, which is the RPi and IQ-Audio DAC, not the RPi used in any other context.

That *specific combination* is where I believe the magic lies, and so if the RPi is used in any other context, all bets are off, as it were! :)

Remember that the primary reason why I'm shouting from the rooftops about the RPi/IQ-Audio DAC is because of how good it sounds (and how cheap it costs), as a combination, not because it's necessarily the best or most intuitive/easy to use FBA source on the market, in terms of its function as a software device.

Marco.

User211

10-04-2015, 08:50

I think if you are using computer driven DACs of any kind, really, you are going to experience some sort of pain.

That has certainly been true using Windows 7 especially if you are using more than one s/w package for playback.

Problems are usually to do with synching issues between PC and the DAC interface and the h/w drivers being used. Plus bugs in the s/w apps. JRiver and TIDAL are both pretty good at not being too buggy, though.

After that brief interlude back to PI...

The Barbarian

10-04-2015, 10:10

How was it all connected up Andre? The output from the 3.5mm headphone jack is quite poor....an IQAudio DAC+ or HiFiBerry board would make things a lot neater...

Don't worry neal i know what im doing ;)

WAD62

10-04-2015, 10:43

Don't worry neal i know what im doing ;)

...you're going to use your USB HRT DAC I'll bet ;)

Looks like it works with piCorePlayer at least...

https://sites.google.com/site/picoreplayer/home/List-of-USB-DACs

Oldpinkman

10-04-2015, 13:48

I realise I've had my eye off the Raspberry Pi ball recently, and have no time now to catch up.

Marco - did you get the battery yet? I presume not, cos if you had I doubt I could have avoided noticing. Get your finger out - you'll love it ;)

NRG

10-04-2015, 16:21

RPi mates with TDA1541A! :D :eyebrows:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/Alpha_DAC/C580EBAF-7F32-4FA6-B8C1-33CF36E4A49F.jpg

Marco

10-04-2015, 16:33

Marco - did you get the battery yet? I presume not, cos if you had I doubt I could have avoided noticing. Get your finger out - you'll love it ;)

I know - and I will! :)

I'm trying to decide on the best battery to buy. I'd like to get something good quality, built nicely (don't want something 'cheapy looking'), and that has LED indicators and others stuff on it that might come in handy in other applications. In that respect, I like the one from RS Supplies, shown here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/power-banks/7757517/

And this one from XT Power: https://www.xtpower.de/XTPower-Powerbank-MP-10000-kompakter-DC-USB-Akku-LiPo-mit-10000mAh

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Marco.

WAD62

11-04-2015, 09:05

Any other suggestions are welcome.

Marco.

I'm using this battery Marco...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GSLRKJO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00

...there's a pic of the setup earlier in the thread...:)

Marco

11-04-2015, 09:25

Oooh.... That does look rather nice! Cheers, Will :thumbsup:

Marco.

NRG

11-04-2015, 10:59

I've forgotten how good a TDA1541A DAC can sound! Eliminating the CS SPDIF interface chip is a great step forward. I've ordered a second RPi as this one is going to be permanently mounted in the TDA DAC case. I'll make it self contained with access to the USB ports and add a linear 5v PSU.

I'm not a fan of Volumio in its current version, I'm finding a few bugs and the radio station management / interface is clunky IMHO.

Krisbee

11-04-2015, 12:21

I'm not a fan of Volumio in its current version, I'm finding a few bugs and the radio station management / interface is clunky IMHO.

Is this any better? http://tcmods.org/ & http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/271811-moode-audio-player-raspberry-pi-4.html

NRG

11-04-2015, 14:03

Thanks Chris, that looks much better, spookily similar to Volumio :scratch: I need another SD card!

Krisbee

11-04-2015, 14:36

Thanks Chris, that looks much better, spookily similar to Volumio :scratch: I need another SD card!

Yes, tcmods looks to be a Volumio fork. Had a quick butchers inside the image file and it is debian jessie based with systemd, where as "rune audio" is arch linux based.

tubehunter

11-04-2015, 15:13

drpetar

11-04-2015, 16:29

Yes very much like Volumio.

I like the album art and library views also the audio info box is useful.

I have a few sd cards that I swap around.

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/1_zpsegycsqft.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/1_zpsegycsqft.jpg.html)

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/3_zpswgxu6tpn.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/3_zpswgxu6tpn.jpg.html)

Ah, it's very interesting. I haven't this album art on my volumio and the interface is a slightly different. I'm using version 1.55, are there any special settings or tweaks for that?

tubehunter

11-04-2015, 16:37

The above is an alternative to Volumio called Moode, there is a link a few posts earlier

drpetar

11-04-2015, 16:49

Ah, I see, thanks, maybe I'll try it :)

NRG

11-04-2015, 17:17

Yes, it looks much better. I'll clone my Volumio and install moode over the top. In the mean time though I've got max2play up and running over I2S into my TDA and it sounds just as good as Volumio but now allows me to use iPeng and gives me access to way better Radio station management plus access to BBC iPlayer, happy days!

Marco

11-04-2015, 17:46

Yes very much like Volumio.

I like the album art and library views also the audio info box is useful.

I have a few sd cards that I swap around.

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/1_zpsegycsqft.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/1_zpsegycsqft.jpg.html)

http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/3_zpswgxu6tpn.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/3_zpswgxu6tpn.jpg.html)

Is that a new version of Volumio, Dunc? The one I have doesn't have the album art and the screen colours are different. Where did you get it from? :)

Marco.

tubehunter

11-04-2015, 18:29

Moode not Volumio

Get it here
http://tcmods.org

I went for the 1.8 release as it fixes a few bugs.

Marco

11-04-2015, 18:33

Cool... If I download it, will it just work automatically with the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC in the same way as the Volumio web interface I'm currently using? :)

Marco.

Rothchild

11-04-2015, 18:47

Volumio is basically an MPD (Music Player Daemon) client, so could be swapped out for any other compatible client according to taste.

The client has no effect on the sound as that's managed by MPD, FFMPEG (the software codec for decoding the various file types) and ALSA (the bit that interfaces the software with the hardware).

There's quite a diversity of MPD clients: http://mpd.wikia.com/wiki/Clients

As all my daily driver computers run linux I tend to prefer GMPC as it's 'rich' in terms of album art and other useful stuff.

British high fidelity

11-04-2015, 18:55

Marco

11-04-2015, 19:57

Am I right in saying that if I use Moode, it'd have to go on a separate SD card from the one I'm using now, operating Volumio?

Marco.

Bonky

11-04-2015, 20:36

A very interesting thread!
My question is... if I already have a Logitech Touch will I notice any benefit in going over to a Raspberry Pi system?
Thanks,
Richard.

drpetar

11-04-2015, 20:51

Am I right in saying that if I use Moode, it'd have to go on a separate SD card from the one I'm using now, operating Volumio?

Marco.
Hi Marco,

I'm not so sure, but I think yes, you should reflash the sd card and make all the necessary settings again.

But there is an alternative way to control your RPi and to see the album art. There is an app named PlugPlayer, available for Mac, iOS and Android. It must be installed on your Mac and you should do nothing to the RPi (except to enable the UPNP settings on the RPi). I use it with my ipad and it works flawlessly. It is a paid app, but costs just a few quids. The RPi acts as a DMR (digital media renderer) and can be controlled by PlugPlayer. When you start the app, it investigates the net music storages and the players, connected to your network. Just choose the storage and the player. It shows the album art, creates playlists and so on. Great fun. :)

The Barbarian

11-04-2015, 20:53

Marco:
I notice you only use a speed Class 4 SD!

Marco

11-04-2015, 20:56

Yeah, I know, but it seemed rapid enough when uploading the library from my NAS box! :)

I did try a Class 10 one and it wasn't any quicker...

Marco.

The Barbarian

11-04-2015, 20:57

It's not just about speed. Theres less chance of Fragmentation with C10

Marco

11-04-2015, 21:01

Hi Marco,

I'm not so sure, but I think yes, you should reflash the sd card and make all the necessary settings again.

Yes I suspect that's the case, and if so, I won't be going there, as it's beyond my knowledge or desire not to fuck up things.

There is an app named PlugPlayer, available for Mac, iOS and Android. It must be installed on your Mac and you should do nothing to the RPi (except to enable the UPNP settings on the RPi). I use it with my ipad and it works flawlessly. It is a paid app, but costs just a few quids. The RPi acts as a DMR (digital media renderer) and can be controlled by PlugPlayer. When you start the app, it investigates the net music storages and the players, connected to your network. Just choose the storage and the player. It shows the album art, creates playlists and so on. Great fun...

That sounds interesting and less 'invasive' than fannying around with SD cards. Do you purchase it from the iTunes store? :)

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2015, 21:03

It's not just about speed. Theres less chance of Fragmentation with C10

I see... I wouldn't even know what that was! Thing is, I've got a stupendous sound going on here now with the Pi, and it works 100% flawlessly, day in day out, so have no real desire to piss about any further with the set-up :)

Marco.

drpetar

11-04-2015, 21:08

....Do you purchase it from the iTunes store? :)

Marco.
Yup

Marco

11-04-2015, 21:08

Ok, noted :thumbsup:

Marco.

NRG

11-04-2015, 21:17

Ask Duncan to send you another SD card with Moode installed Marco, then just swap them over and boot up!

Marco

11-04-2015, 21:24

Yes, that could be an idea..... ;)

Marco.

PhilofCas

12-04-2015, 06:28

Hi guys I'm new to the raspberry pi mumbo Jumbo but from what I'm hearing it sounds amazing, could someone please send me a Pm and tell me what I need to buy please from this thread there is so much being discussed and from a non techy stand point it's a little confusing, thanks

Hi Deano, I've PM'd you to look at this post, not sure if you've been PM'd this already, but someone on here posted these links a few pages ago:

http://theaudiostandard.net/thread/1241/build-raspberry-based-audio-streamer?page=1&scrollTo=33612

http://theaudiostandard.net/thread/501/raspberry-based-audio-streamer-project?page=1&scrollTo=11329

List of all you need etc.

There is a list quite early on on this thread too (somewhere :)).

All the best,

Phil.

NRG

12-04-2015, 11:00

It's not just about speed. Theres less chance of Fragmentation with C10

? Run that one past again Andre....where does the speed rating of an SD card affect file system fragmentation?

The Barbarian

12-04-2015, 11:38

Here found this. This will explain better

https://www.sdcard.org/developers/overview/speed_class/

NRG

12-04-2015, 12:18

Thanks Andre but I think you've misread it, easy to do....

The memory of a card is divided into minimum memory units. The device writes data onto memory units where no data is already stored. As available memory becomes divided into smaller units through normal use, this leads to an increase in non-linear, or fragmented storage. The amount of fragmentation can reduce write speeds, so faster SD memory card speed standards help compensate for fragmentation.

What they are saying is that during normal file system usage as file are deleted and others written fragmentation occurs which can affect the write performance (by adding write latency) of the flash memory. The higher classes of card offset this increased write latency by being faster in the first place so the effect is less noticeable.

On another note these classifications of speed class are for sequential continuous writes. When an SD card is used in a computer environment, like on our RPi's the card is subjected to a small block random read and write pattern, not sequential write (well only at the time of creating the image) so the most important parameter for the card and it's not often if at all published is the 4K block random read/write performance.

There is a thread over on the RPi forum where this is explained and a whole bunch of performance results posted on numerous different SD cards. It may surprise you that some of the fastest performing cards in this 4K random test are Class4 cards and not Class10... :)

WAD62

12-04-2015, 13:12

I'm using piCorePlayer, and as it runs from RAM alone the speed, size, and fragmentation of the micro SD card is of limited concern ;)

One can remove the card whilst it's up and running...apparently, although I've not bothered proving this myself :eyebrows:

The Barbarian

12-04-2015, 14:59

Krisbee

12-04-2015, 16:10

Re: Picking a sdcard for your RPi.

If you want to get technical about this, how about :

http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2015/Case_Room_2/Friday/SD_Cards_and_filesystems_for_Embedded_Systems.webm

It includes this:

http://s11.postimg.org/k4y32gg5b/sdcard1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/k4y32gg5b/)

Note the standard for class 10 sdcard speed is for an unfragmented card.

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Buy a good brand from a known source, and back it up. Avoid cheap sdcards, unless in a genuine sale, there are many fakes around. A decent Class 6 is good enough.

NRG

12-04-2015, 16:39

+1 Here's the RPi thread for those with insomnia: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=4076

Krisbee

12-04-2015, 17:13

+1 Here's the RPi thread for those with insomnia: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=4076

And for the Linux obsessive, an example explanation of how to align the partitions on a RPi SDcard for optimal performance:

https://thelastmaimou.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/optimizing-arch-linux-image-installation-on-the-raspberry-pi/

I promise, no more geek stuff.

lovejoy

13-04-2015, 10:05

A very interesting thread!
My question is... if I already have a Logitech Touch will I notice any benefit in going over to a Raspberry Pi system?
Thanks,
Richard.

The Touch is a great piece of kit. I ran one for a couple of years, firstly on its own, then later as a transport into my Naim DAC. I applied all of the tweaks, the Soundcheck TT mods, better power supply, turned off the screen etc. etc. Even with all of that, in terms of sound quality, a Pi 2 and an IQAudio DAC leaves a Touch eating dirt. If you can live without the display from the Touch (which is easy to get used to when you use either a smart phone, tablet or computer to control music playback from the Pi), there is no reason not to make the switch. The fundamental difference is that as good as the SBT is, you're still very much aware you're listening to digital audio. The Pi just sounds like music, and it's very easy to lose MANY hours getting completely drawn in by it.

Marco

13-04-2015, 10:30

The fundamental difference is that as good as the SBT is, you're still very much aware you're listening to digital audio. The Pi just sounds like music, and it's very easy to lose MANY hours getting completely drawn in by it.

An excellent précis, Rich, of 'what's what' :exactly:

Marco.

Bonky

13-04-2015, 15:09

An excellent précis, Rich, of 'what's what' :exactly:

Marco.
Thanks Marco and Lovejoy.

...looks like another visit to Maplins!

I hope I don't need to wade through all 74 pages here to find out what to buy and how to get it all set up.

Can I just use a USB HD as my music source and just plug it in?
Edit: I see from the OP that you can. Great.

BW

Richard.

lovejoy

13-04-2015, 16:03

You can indeed. The only thing you need to watch there is that by default, the Pi does not allow the full current output to the USB ports in order to power a USB hard drive sufficiently. There is a bit of code that needs to be added to support this, although I believe that the latest builds of Volumio etc. do already have this included - You'll know whether it does or not as you'll hear your hard drive spinning up and down continually if there's not enough power there.

A list of what you need in total:
1 x Raspberry Pi B+ or Pi 2 (The Pi 2 is the one to have, don't buy the older models as the header pins are different and they won't fit the DAC)
1 x IQAudio DAC+ board
1 x 5V power supply, make sure it delivers at least 1.5A - The DAC board takes its supply from the Pi and a 1A supply isn't quite enough so you might find that if you buy a Pi bundle with keyboard, SD card etc. that the power supply won't be beefy enough.
1 x micro SD card of 4GB or more - I've tried a few different types of card and I honestly think that due to the amount of small files written to the card, the speed/class of the card makes no odds
Depending on how you'll be networking, either a wireless USB dongle or Ethernet cable to your router

Then all you need is either a computer with a USB card reader or a micro SD card USB adapter. Staples sell 16GB micro SD cards for £5 that come with the micro SD card adapters.

Now download your chosen image - Volumio seems to be the most popular. I'm currently using moode audio which I like a lot but they're all based on the same player so there's not a lot in it. Then you just need to write the image to your micro SD card. If you have Windows, a copy of Win32DiskImager will do you nicely. If you're using a Mac or Linux then you need to open a terminal and use the dd command to write the image to the SD card (Let me know if you need instructions).

With the image written, insert into your Pi and switch on. With it being headless and if your router is dishing out IP addresses via DHCP then you might not know where to find it initially, but Volumio takes care of this as you just open a browser on your PC and go to http://volumio.local which will open the web browser - The first thing I always do from here is to set a static IP address, so that if you're going to be serving music from a NAS, you can get this permanently set up - sounds as if that's not important to you though.

Next you just need to set the output correctly, so from the Settings menu you need to tell it that you have the IQAudio Dac+ connected, give it a reboot, and you should be ready to play music.

Sounds easy doesn't it ;-).

Bonky

13-04-2015, 16:20

Thanks for that Lovejoy; much appreciated!

I have an iMac on which all my ripped music is stored. Most of it is in iTunes but there's a significant lot in my 'high def' file ...24 bit... For streaming to the Touch.
I also have a MacBook Pro so can access all the iTunes music on the iMac via the Cloud.

Both Macs run Windows7 as well, if needed.

I have a couple of spare powered USB hard drives I could press into service.

I hear that the optional DAC of choice won't be available again until the end of April. Shame...I've got the bug...

Thanks again,

Richard

Both Macs can run Windows 7 as well, either from Parallels or Bootcamp.

lovejoy

13-04-2015, 17:13

Thanks for that Lovejoy; much appreciated!

I hear that the optional DAC of choice won't be available again until the end of April. Shame...I've got the bug...

I feel your pain. I was disappointed as I really had the bug when I first read Marco's first post. I was very lucky to get a remanufactured DAC but they ran out pretty quickly after that. Just don't succumb to temptation and buy a different DAC, the IQAudio really is worth waiting for - and not long now hopefully.

A bit of an edit of what I said earlier about power supplies - If you're going to attach an external hard drive that is going to draw its power from the Pi then you'll want a 5V supply that will deliver at least 2A. If the drive has its own supply then 1.5A will be sufficient.

Gazjam

13-04-2015, 18:58

The Touch is a great piece of kit. I ran one for a couple of years, firstly on its own, then later as a transport into my Naim DAC. I applied all of the tweaks, the Soundcheck TT mods, better power supply, turned off the screen etc. etc. Even with all of that, in terms of sound quality, a Pi 2 and an IQAudio DAC leaves a Touch eating dirt. If you can live without the display from the Touch (which is easy to get used to when you use either a smart phone, tablet or computer to control music playback from the Pi), there is no reason not to make the switch. The fundamental difference is that as good as the SBT is, you're still very much aware you're listening to digital audio. The Pi just sounds like music, and it's very easy to lose MANY hours getting completely drawn in by it.
Sorry,
Are you saying that the Pi/IQAudio dac sounds significantly better than the Touch through your Naim dac?
A like for like comparison?
Or the Pi played through the Naim?

Sorry for being fick. :)

lovejoy

13-04-2015, 20:39

Sorry,
Are you saying that the Pi/IQAudio dac sounds significantly better than the Touch through your Naim dac?
A like for like comparison?
Or the Pi played through the Naim?

Sorry for being fick. :)

All of the above yes!
The Pi/IQAudio to my ears in my system wipes the floor with the Touch on it's own, with mods, or being used as a transport into the Naim DAC. It's also better than the Pi with a HiFiBerry Digi feeding my Naim DAC, which in turn was a little better than the Touch into the DAC.

Gazjam

13-04-2015, 20:47

Cool...
Surprised to hear the IQAudio Dac sounds better the Naim...think there's some sorcery going on! :)

Frankyc2003

13-04-2015, 21:31

I concur.
So ar my findings are that the RPI + IQAudio is by far better than my SBTouch + Arcam rdac. And by a large margin.
It's like suddenly a large amnount of information in the audio spectrum is being made available. Very surprising.
maybe it's like the old adage; Shortest signal path sounds better. The combo is so dinky... barely bigger than a pack of fags... No ICs between streamer and Dac...
Once more people get their hands on the IQ, things will become clearer I am sure. But anyway it is a true revelation!

Marco

13-04-2015, 21:32

Cool...
Surprised to hear the IQAudio Dac sounds better the Naim...think there's some sorcery going on! :)

I'm not raving about this thing for nothing, shweety! ;)

Marco.

Bonky

13-04-2015, 22:07

OK, I plan to buy the Pi2 and case and PS tomorrow and wait for the DAC.

Whilst I'm waiting for the DAC perhaps I can try it with the Caiman2+ )...?)

BW

Richard.

lovejoy

14-04-2015, 06:12

Cool...
Surprised to hear the IQAudio Dac sounds better the Naim...think there's some sorcery going on! :)

I don't think it's sorcery, but all things aren't equal here. The Pi/IQ has the major advantage in that the whole digital signal path is over I2S. If there was some way of implanting the Pi inside the Naim DAC and connecting that via I2S I'm sure things would be different, but the Naim is subject to SPDIF which is a lousy interface. Last year I borrowed a load of different SPDIF cables and was totally bowled over by one of the top of the range Chord SPDIF cables. It really did transform the sound over what I was using at the time, but that was before I found out it cost almost £1000 and no matter how good it sounded, I just could not reconcile spending 1K on a metre of cable. I'm not putting the Naim down because it's still a great piece of kit capable of stunning sound, but you do need to spend a good bit more to get the best out of it. The Pi/IQ does away with all of that - Although it definitely rewards a good analogue interconnect.

The Black Adder

14-04-2015, 08:02

Not surprised that it sounds better than the Naim what so ever IMO... Naim have a very clinical sound hence why I would never have any in my system.

Marco

14-04-2015, 08:08

The key to the sonic success of the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC is, quite simply, in its simplicity: less is more :)

Marco.

Bonky

14-04-2015, 13:22

Just popped down to the Pimoroni shop (just 20 mins away) and purchased the Raspberry Pi and Ninja box and 2A PS.

All I need now is the IQ Audio DAC. Interestingly, Pimoroni will shortly be stocking this DAC.

Just 'cos I like playing... can one have the NOOBS OS and Volumio installed on the same micro SD card?

Thanks,

Richard

NRG

14-04-2015, 15:40

Not too long now before we can find out what the fuss is about! In the meantime I've now integrated the RPi with my TDA1541A DAC over I2S and it sounds wonderful. Probably the best I've had from digital audio. I need to think about power for the RPi and may leave it separately powered independent of the DAC, attempts to use the TDA PSU to power it where a little too much for the PSU. There's quite a peaky current draw when the RPi accesses the SD card, I need something a bit stronger for it...

cyclopse

14-04-2015, 18:27

NRG

14-04-2015, 19:28

It's certainly an easy way Stephen and it does sound good, to me anyway. But I want to try a good linear feed to the RPi as well as I think it may be better still...

The Black Adder

14-04-2015, 19:33

Can you get a remote control for the Pi/iQ?...

cvision123

14-04-2015, 19:59

I tried different streaming solutions in the past three years. In the end, I am happy with a NAS to store music, a Mac Mini with JRiver media center and the iFi iDSD Micro DAC. With this setup, I don't need a monitor hooked up to the mini. Everything is controlled through the remote application on my phone or iPad.

The "worst" thing about a computer based setup is that it's "free" to fine tune the system (you don't need to buy tweaking accessories,... like a LP playback setup. In my case, I spent more time trying stuff than listening to music.
Now that I don't have that luxury, I just put on an LP then enjoy my limited 1 hour listening windows during the week. On weekends then music all day :-)

WAD62

14-04-2015, 20:16

Can you get a remote control for the Pi/iQ?...

Yes it's called squeezecommander! ;)

Runs on all good android devices, and some rubbish ones too....

Ashmore

14-04-2015, 22:15

I offer the following experience as encouragement for those here who are enthusiastic to have a go but anxious about getting this pi stuff to work. I hope it may help some and that Marco and others don't mind me posting this ditty. Nothing to see here for experienced hands...

I have some experience of streaming having used squeezeboxes for years, which access my music through a NAS (vortexbox) server. My system is all ethernet based. I use squeezecommander as a 'remote' on my smartphone. I consider this all to be pretty unsophisticated 'plug-in-and-works-out-of-the-box' stuff and I have very little interest in computers per se. I don't use Linux and have no intention of learning.

So the pi2, which until I picked it off our lawn today (thanks Mr Amazon for the 'safe' delivery over my fence) I have never seen before and about which I know only what I've read on this thread.

My experience so far: Unwrapping to music in 20 minutes. Yep, really. Instructions:

1 Slot mirco SDcard in to the pc via its bigger SD adapter
2 Download picoreplayer onto PC
3 Write picoreplayer to the SD card using win32diskimager.
4 Stick micro card into the pi.
5 Ethernet into pi.
6 USB into pi one end and caiman DAC at the other.
7 Power on.
8 Pour beer

LMS and squeezecommander have already found the picoreplayer.

9 Look up picoreplayer's IP from LMS settings (there are other ways too, all easy)
10 switch output to USB via friendly web interface.
11 drink beer

Job done.

As for sound. Well it's half way through the first album, using a bog standard PSU and supplying the caiman via USB, and frankly the sound straight out of the box is a bit congested and 'grungy'. But that's not the point. This is about getting something to work at this stage. I look forward to setting up and evaluating the Pi DAC. My expectations are high...

Simon