View Full Version : 'Analog Dinosaur' succumbs to the joys of FBA : enter Raspberry Pi 2/IQ-Audio DAC+!!
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Great ! I'm not sure I understand that you have to switch between Volumio and Spotify.
Normally, you only should have to use the Spotify application. For serious listening, leave the volume on the Mac and Spotify app at 100% and use the your amplifier's volume knob.
Yes, but I'm not using a preamp with the Pi (so no 'amplifier', in that respect). The Pi goes directly into my power amp. Therefore, I'm controlling the volume on both the streaming of music from my NAS, and Spotify, via Volumio, on the Mac :)
Because I currently don't have Spotify activated on the Pi, I have to open it up as a separate web page, in order to access it and select songs, then flick back to the Volumio web interface, to control the volume. It sounds best with the volume on the Mac set at about 70%, and then I control the 'master sound level', as it were, via Volumio.
Any higher than that on the Mac and the sound becomes overblown and 'saturated', a little like the effect gained when playing back recordings made at too high an input level. It's about getting the gain structure right in my system.
Another thing you should do in the Spotify app is set the "Music Quality" to "Extreme" to get the full 320kbs/sec.
Cool. How do I do that?
Marco.
To get the best SQ, I wouldn't use the software / hardware controls on the Pi. Actually, it is more likely to be software at least on mine. I would run the RCA's of the Pi into a preamp or volume control.
Still dont' quite understand but I would install the Spotify app on your Mac in the mean time and just use that. You can get it from their web site.
Greets, gotta go now
ru
Thanks for giving some clarity Ali,
The definition of streaming is to play files (access data not on your device), music, video etc in real time. So the data is not pre down loaded or read off your hard disc at any point. The data can be streamed over the net, off another device you own using wifi or blue tooth etc. That is why I was confused about the Pi being hard wired to a data storage server and Streaming being talked about.
The Pi seems to be used as a dumb terminal on a network and is pulling the stored data off the server.
To say the Pi is a cheep option is misleading (not that you said that) because you need all the additional hardware for it to function. Talk of tablets, smart phones, , NAS and "your Network" implies you have to have all this kit to play music, the Pi wont do anything on its own.
I am presuming the Pi does not have wifi or internet access and this is done through a networked device?
I don't own any of this kit, so it IS expensive for me to set up (I dont even have a land line).
I'm not a technophobe, the first computer I used was fifty grands worth of Silicon Graphics workstation and I was one of the first three people in the UK to own a hands free blue tooth telephone headset, back in the days before Sony bought Ericson to aquire its Blue tooth technology. I'm just selective these days about what technology I use and what if any are its real benefits. I dropped out of using social media almost immediately as I couldn't care less what someone had for breakfast, talk about get a life! There is so much bull and buzz words surounding this stuff and quite often folks dont even understand the basics of what they are talking about, kids talk about Apps like its a pre requisite to breathing but dont even understand what an App is.
Yes the real costs of FBA are high and the ongoing cost of updating hardware/software to keep pace and avoid obsolescence, mean it continues to be a drain after the initial set up and you aint bought any tunes yet.
To get the best SQ, I wouldn't use the software / hardware controls on the Pi. Actually, it is more likely to be software at least on mine. I would run the RCA's of the Pi into a preamp or volume control.
I've tried that and retested it a few times (just to make sure I wasn't wrong), and the results here are much better by-passing a preamp and feeding the Pi directly into a power amp - no question! :)
Still dont' quite understand but I would install the Spotify app on your Mac in the mean time and just use that. You can get it from their web site.
Sorry, I can't explain it any clearer than I did in my last post. I'll have a look now at installing the Spotify app. When you say web site, do you mean the Apple website or the Spotify one? A link would be good! :cool:
Marco.
Do you mean this, Roops: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/simplify-for-spotify-rdio/id448003584?mt=12
I'll catch you later when you can answer the question. Have a good day! :cool:
Marco.
jollyfix
24-03-2015, 09:03
Thanks for giving some clarity Ali,
The definition of streaming is to play files (access data not on your device), music, video etc in real time. So the data is not pre down loaded or read off your hard disc at any point. The data can be streamed over the net, off another device you own using wifi or blue tooth etc. That is why I was confused about the Pi being hard wired to a data storage server and Streaming being talked about.
The Pi seems to be used as a dumb terminal on a network and is pulling the stored data off the server.
To say the Pi is a cheep option is misleading (not that you said that) because you need all the additional hardware for it to function. Talk of tablets, smart phones, , NAS and "your Network" implies you have to have all this kit to play music, the Pi wont do anything on its own.
I am presuming the Pi does not have wifi or internet access and this is done through a networked device?
I don't own any of this kit, so it IS expensive for me to set up (I dont even have a land line).
I'm not a technophobe, the first computer I used was fifty grands worth of Silicon Graphics workstation and I was one of the first three people in the UK to own a hands free blue tooth telephone headset, back in the days before Sony bought Ericson to aquire its Blue tooth technology. I'm just selective these days about what technology I use and what if any are its real benefits. I dropped out of using social media almost immediately as I couldn't care less what someone had for breakfast, talk about get a life! There is so much bull and buzz words surounding this stuff and quite often folks dont even understand the basics of what they are talking about, kids talk about Apps like its a pre requisite to breathing but dont even understand what an App is.
Yes the real costs of FBA are high and the ongoing cost of updating hardware/software to keep pace and avoid obsolescence, mean it continues to be a drain after the initial set up and you aint bought any tunes yet.
Thanks Ken, this and your other post says it all for me.
Marco - "The Pi goes directly into my power amp"
So this is a seperate sytem with its own power amp/speakers and not conected to your main sytem/s?
no he just switches leads
To get the best SQ, I wouldn't use the software / hardware controls on the Pi. Actually, it is more likely to be software at least on mine. I would run the RCA's of the Pi into a preamp or volume control.
Still dont' quite understand but I would install the Spotify app on your Mac in the mean time and just use that. You can get it from their web site.
Greets, gotta go now
ru
+1 Digital volume controls degrade SQ, this has been my experience.
Mind you I have connected my laptop directly to my power amps via a minijack to RCA cable and controlled the volume from the pc to understand what my DAC was actually doing to the sound. The results were surprising, and not entirely bad.
For most people this will give them an easy route to file based audio, just turn the laptop up full and use your system volume control. Easy peasy.
Hi Ken,
To say the Pi is a cheep option is misleading (not that you said that) because you need all the additional hardware for it to function. Talk of tablets, smart phones, , NAS and "your Network" implies you have to have all this kit to play music, the Pi wont do anything on its own.
Of course. I took it as a given that anyone with the wherewithal to access the Internet from home (and thus post here) would already have a Wi-Fi network (router) and a device to use the Internet with, i.e. a laptop, PC or a smart phone, so none of that was factored into the cost equation I quoted. In terms of operating the Pi, a tablet would take the place of a laptop or smart phone, or vice versa - you don't need all three.
The NAS is simply a music storage device, which contains hard-drives where the music is stored. One could also use a USB drive. The latter is a cheaper option, but not as good. The former was included in the 'less than £350' total price I quoted in my OP.
Therefore, presuming that one has a home Wi-Fi network (landline) and either a laptop or a smart phone, which I'd imagine would apply to the majority of members, £350 for a truly top-notch music source is an UTTER BARGAIN. How much did you spend on your CDP or turntable? The Pi (and IQ-Audio) DAC combo is capable of competing with those, sonically, or significantly outperforming them!! :)
I am presuming the Pi does not have wifi or internet access and this is done through a networked device?
Of course, as outlined above.
I don't own any of this kit, so it IS expensive for me to set up (I dont even have a land line).
How do you manage to post here then if you don't have access to Wi-Fi? :scratch:
Don't know how you cope without a landline, mate, as I couldn't be doing with having to use a mobile phone all the time to take and receive calls. Each to his or her own, though.
Yes the real costs of FBA are high....
Not at all, unless you don't already own a laptop and/or smart phone and a home Wi-Fi network, and consider £350, for a high-end music source, as "high".
...and the ongoing cost of updating hardware/software to keep pace and avoid obsolescence, mean it continues to be a drain after the initial set up and you aint bought any tunes yet.
In terms of the latter, you don't need to buy any tunes - simply rip your existing CD or vinyl collection to hard-drive(s) and use that. You may even finds it sounds better! As for the cost of updating hardware or software, in order to avoid obsolescence, for me, time will tell, as I've just gotten into FBA.
However, even if I had to scrap the DAC and buy another more up to date one (which probably wouldn't be necessary), it only cost me £32, and the Pi, £40, so hardly the end of the world.
The most likely scenario will be that any updates/upgrades will either be retrofittable to the existing devices and/or software controlled, and when it comes to the Pi, considering the charitable ethos of the company who produces it, probably free.
Honestly mate, you're painting a rather negative and unrealistic picture of the Pi, and what's involved to buy a ticket for the ride! If it was as difficult or as expensive as you've portrayed, I wouldn't have done it. Simples :cool:
Marco.
+1 Digital volume controls degrade SQ, this has been my experience.
Mine too, up until I got the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC. Do you honestly think I'd leave the Croft redundant (apart from when playing CDs or vinyl) for nothing? ;)
Marco.
The whole point about FBA is convenience.
"no he just switches leads"
I would have to pull my amp from the rack to do this every time I changed source.
As my TV/Movie/radio are all part of my audio sytem, you can see how this would not be viable for me and many others.
The whole point about FBA is convenience.
"no he just switches leads"
I would have to pull my amp from the rack to do this every time I changed source.
As my TV/Movie/radio are all part of my audio sytem, you can see how this would not be viable for me and many others.
http://hifimediy.com/usb-dac2
Ken, I use one of these in a second system I just plug the laptop/PC in via a decent USB lead (yes they do sound different) and away you go. It's one of the most natural sounding DACs I've ever heard. Cheap and simple file based audio.
I guess the results Marco is having with the pi come from its simplicity, lack of moving parts and the fact that unlike a laptop it is performing few tasks and dedicated to one source. However he still has his laptop open which acts as his remote control effectively. For me, I'd skin the cat a different way by connecting the laptop to a good DAC.
If you like Ken I'd be happy to bring a bunch of digital gubbins over and after trying a few different approaches you can decide whether FBA is for you or not.
no he just switches leads
Correct - a ten second job here! However, that's only because I'm not using a preamp, with the Pi. If i was, swapping over leads would not be necessary :)
Marco.
The whole point about FBA is convenience.
Not for me it isn't - it's about gaining access to more music and adding another (highly) sonically capable music source to my existing hi-fi system.
My system is used solely to play music, in a dedicated listening room. It plays no part in my watching TV or movies. I understand and appreciate that your situation is different.
"no he just switches leads"
I would have to pull my amp from the rack to do this every time I changed source.
As my TV/Movie/radio are all part of my audio sytem, you can see how this would not be viable for me and many others.
Fair enough. My power amplifier is about 5ft off the ground, on 15 layers of Mana supports, so easy to get at, and I also have plenty of space behind my system to connect or disconnect anything I like. I deliberately set it up that way for, erm, convenience! :eyebrows:
Look, at the end of the day, if you think something is worth it, you'll make the effort to do it. Simple. You obviously just don't want to get into FBA (for whatever justifiable reasons you have), and that's fine :)
Marco.
Hi Dave,
Thanks Ken, this and your other post says it all for me.
See my reply to Ken. Honestly, if it wasn't relatively easy to do, inexpensive and offered high SPPV, I wouldn't have embraced FBA. In that respect, folk should know me by now!
:exactly:
Marco.
re spotify application
no, not that one.... go to www.spotify.com ... there should be a download section there where you can get the app for free... i can't give you a direct link because it's in french :scratch:
Cheers. There is a 'Download' tab on the homepage, on your link, which if clicked on takes me to a 'Sign Up' to Spotify page, with Facebook.
Is that what you're referring to? If not, I can't see anything else, other than 'Help' or 'Upgrade'.... The only other tabs there are "Get (Spotify) free", or "Go Premium", or "Go With The Moment'"...
Marco.
get spotify free.. download and install it
That just takes me to a sign-in with Facbook page... And why would I want to 'Get Spotify Free', download it and install it, when I've already downloaded it, and have a Spotify Premium account? :scratch:
Surely the necessary app will be somewhere on there?
Marco.
right at the bottom of the page it says "already have an account" login there with your Spotify credentials. They are not making it easy for us !!
edit : ok, sorry. I didn't read your whole previous post... you already have the app in that case.. so no need to get the app.
But I'm already logged into Spotify, with my Premium Account (and have been all day).... Anyway, I've done as you said and have arrived at this page (where it mentions nothing about apps):
www.spotify.com/uk/download/mac/
:confused:
Marco.
edit : ok, sorry. I didn't read your whole previous post... you already have the app in that case.. so no need to get the app.
Lol - jeez!
So where can I find this app then, on Spotify - or more specifically, once I've found it, how do I use it to do what you've suggested? We're now back at square one! :doh:
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-03-2015, 12:35
Thanks for giving some clarity Ali,
The definition of streaming is to play files (access data not on your device), music, video etc in real time. So the data is not pre down loaded or read off your hard disc at any point. The data can be streamed over the net, off another device you own using wifi or blue tooth etc. That is why I was confused about the Pi being hard wired to a data storage server and Streaming being talked about.
The Pi seems to be used as a dumb terminal on a network and is pulling the stored data off the server.
To say the Pi is a cheep option is misleading (not that you said that) because you need all the additional hardware for it to function. Talk of tablets, smart phones, , NAS and "your Network" implies you have to have all this kit to play music, the Pi wont do anything on its own.
I am presuming the Pi does not have wifi or internet access and this is done through a networked device?
I don't own any of this kit, so it IS expensive for me to set up (I dont even have a land line).
I'm not a technophobe, the first computer I used was fifty grands worth of Silicon Graphics workstation and I was one of the first three people in the UK to own a hands free blue tooth telephone headset, back in the days before Sony bought Ericson to aquire its Blue tooth technology. I'm just selective these days about what technology I use and what if any are its real benefits. I dropped out of using social media almost immediately as I couldn't care less what someone had for breakfast, talk about get a life! There is so much bull and buzz words surounding this stuff and quite often folks dont even understand the basics of what they are talking about, kids talk about Apps like its a pre requisite to breathing but dont even understand what an App is.
Yes the real costs of FBA are high and the ongoing cost of updating hardware/software to keep pace and avoid obsolescence, mean it continues to be a drain after the initial set up and you aint bought any tunes yet.
Yes, I did assume you had some sort of PC and a router, so yes it would cost you more to set up. However, USB hard drives are pretty cheap, so it may be possible to connect one directly to the PI. Also, I don't know if it's possible, but you may be able to use your telly as a monitor, negating the need for a smartphone or tablet. All you'd need then is a wireless keyboard and mouse, which are cheap enough.
You're correct regarding the word streaming, but it seems to have become a catch-all term for this type of audio.
If it can be done this way, another benefit is you would be able to use streaming services like Netflix, so you could watch films and series at a fraction of the cost of Sky.
ha, it should say "thank's for downloading.."
in fact it has downloaded the app to your dl folder on your computer. Follow the instructions to install the app. I still get the impression you are using the web version of Spotify.
14251
However, USB hard drives are pretty cheap, so it may be possible to connect one directly to the PI.
I can confirm that is indeed the case :)
Marco.
But I'm already logged into Spotify, with my Premium Account (and have been all day).... Anyway, I've done as you said and have arrived at this page (where it mentions nothing about apps):
www.spotify.com/uk/download/mac/
:confused:
Marco.
Stick a record on and forget it;)
ha, it should say "thank's for downloading.."
in fact it has downloaded the app to your dl folder on your computer. Follow the instructions to install the app. I still get the impression you are using the web version of Spotify.
14251
Sorry, Rupert, we're going round in circles, mate, and you're being very helpful.... But I can see nowhere where there are instructions to install an app. What do you mean the web version of Spotify?
I've paid for a Premium Spotify account and logged into my account, via my Facebook page, which takes me to the main Spotify page where I can access 'My Music' or click on "New Releases", or search for specific artists.
More confused now than ever....
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-03-2015, 12:44
I can confirm that is indeed the case :)
Marco.
Ok cool, may even sound better that way.
let's leave it a that for the moment... i gotta finish some work... will get back to you ASAP... in the meantime I think Struth is right... :)
ps. you can access the Spotify services in multiple ways, one of which is with an app on your computer, another is over the web, when you dont have your computer... but more later..
Sorry, Rupert, we're going round in circles, mate, and you're being very helpful.... But I can see nowhere where there are instructions to install an app. What do you mean the web version of Spotify?
I've paid for a Premium Spotify account and logged into my account, via my Facebook page, which takes me to the main Spotify page where I can access 'My Music' or click on "New Releases", or search for specific artists.
More confused now than ever....
Marco.
think what he meant was there is a web version that works through a browser and an app that doesnt need a browser.They will once you sign in to it be the same program but the app may be the one to use in this way.
let's leave it a that for the moment... i gotta finish some work... will get back to you ASAP... in the meantime I think Struth is right... :)
ps. you can access the Spotify services in multiple ways, one of which is with an app on your computer, another is over the web, when you dont have your computer... but more later..
No worries, mate. You've been very helpful indeed, and I appreciate it. Yes, I'm using a computer (laptop) to access Spotify. It's the only way I can do it, as I don't have a smartphone.
When you come back, basically all I need to know (and have been trying to find out from the beginning) is how to ensure that I'm getting the best SQ from Spotify.
Therefore, what you need to do (if you still have the will to live, lol!) is take me through the steps required to access the required app, which must be located somewhere on my web version of Spotify.
Laters! :cool:
Marco.
think what he meant was there is a web version that works through a browser and an app that doesnt need a browser.They will once you sign in to it be the same program but the app may be the one to use in this way.
I get that, Grant. I just need to know where in the Spotify main page/menu you access this app, so I can use it and do what Rupert has suggested. That last bit, however, still remains a mystery.
Marco.
cant help you there. dont use macs. but apps are usually for ipads. i know win 8 has apps in another section so may be macs do too. but maybe it is the app on your ipad you need to download and set up which i would imagine you will find either on the spotify main page or in the app store.
I could be way wrong of course.
Ok cool, may even sound better that way.
I haven't carried out any back-to-back comparisons, but the first time I heard the Pi, it was via a USB drive, and it sounded superb, although not any better than I'm getting now with the NAS box. Duncan mentioned something about the latter being better for streaming high-res stuff, but I don't know exactly why...
The thing I don't understand is how can Ken post here if he doesn't have a Wi-Fi network?? :scratch:
Marco.
but maybe it is the app on your ipad you need to download and set up which i would imagine you will find either on the spotify main page or in the app store.
Those are also my thoughts, but it's *where* to find it....?
I can't see anything remotely like that on the Spotify main page, and for some reason, Rupert is unable to simply guide me, and tell me, from the Spotify main page, go to 'X', click on 'Y', and then do 'Z', and Bob's yer auntie, which would've been nice and simple :)
Therefore, I think I'll take your advice and stick on a record!! :D
Marco.
when homer was told he was boring in his eating habits and needed to try other foods they went japanese. hep got poisoned by eating blowfish.. his statement applies. "I ve never been poisoned by a pork chop"
Hi again...
so, maybe I can shed some light on the difference between the web app and the dedicated app.
Web app
With this (web) app it is possible to connect to Spotify service via a web browser by using this link https://play.spotify.com/
what you get is a web page with the basic functions but it uses Adobe Flash which is a PITA and as far as I can see it is not possible to adjust some important settings, such as the bandwidth of the streams (SQ). The advantage of this approach is that you can access your Spotify music on any computer without having to install the dedicated app (as long as it has Internet access and a reasonably recent version of the Flash player, yuck)
14254
Dedicated Mac / PC app
It is also possible to connect to the Spotify services with a dedicated application which runs on your Mac / PC. With this app, it is possible to set the bandwidth parameters. It also seems to have more options. If you are using a Mac and you are running a Pi + Volumio installed, you can stream any audio from it (the Mac) to the DAC on your Pi (I hope that makes sense :scratch:) You can get the app from https://www.spotify.com/uk/download
14253
Iphone / ipad / Android apps
Basically the same as the Mac / PC app but for these devices. Note, you won't be able to stream over Airplay with an Android device unless you install special software which is also a PITA. In the settings section it is possible to set the SQ to "extreme" to get the full 320 kbs/sec stream. These apps are downloadable via the app store (ipad, iphone) or the google store (Android) directly from the device.
14258
I realize all these hardware options are easy to set up, whatever combination is used - if you have the spare dosh that is.
I am more interested in what is a good set up for SQ as this varies so much depending on who you talk to. I was just trying to get my head round what Marco was getting out of this hardware set up that impressed him so much. I like the idea of the integral DAC and no moving parts on the Pi for instance.
It seems which ever route I choose there are potential SQ issues relating to both hardware and software choice, plus set up configuration, so its not quite as easy peasey as some would have you belive. Sure you can get a tune out, but whether it is the optimum SQ for the gear selected is the issue.
I can get my outdated PC in the next room to display images on my TV via an HDMI cable and sound via USB on my system DAC, I even have a USB linked sensor attached to my TV so I can use a PC remote control (£5 off the bay) this just looks like a TV remote and I can flick through itunes using it from the sofa. This works quite well but I was thinking of taking it to the next level and using hardware dedicated to Audio reproduction, and maybe a wifi tablet to browse the selections. Oh, and get rid of itunes in favour of Jriver.
CAD produce Audio PC's that have been tailored for SQ. They have their Windows operating system hacked to remove a hundred and twenty odd background routines, so the machine can consentrate all resources to the task in hand, they advocate no additional application software be loaded, other than to run the audio, not even web access and do all this through a seperate networked machine. They use SS hard drives in the PC and external devices for the Library. The list goes on but you can see they are building a platform to suit the end use. Their gear is a bit rich for me, a dedicated USB lead is £800, but the principles they apply can be adopted.
Thanks for the offer Rich, I may pick over your knowledge of the various bits of software at some point if thats all right, many of the names that crop up mean nothing to me, I see them quoted a lot but have no idea what they do. :)
Dedicated Mac / PC app
It is also possible to connect to the Spotify services with a dedicated application which runs on your Mac / PC. With this app, it is possible to set the bandwidth parameters. It also seems to have more options. If you are using a Mac and you are running a Pi + Volumio installed, you can stream any audio from it to the DAC on your Pi (I hope that makes sense :scratch:) You can get the app from https://www.spotify.com/uk/download
14253
Way, hey - at bloody last!!!! :yay: :yay:
If you'd told me in the first place to go to the main Spotify page, and click on a downward pointing arrow, on the R/H side of the screen (next to my name), which subsequently releases a drop-down menu, where I can then adjust the settings, one of which is 'Music Quality', then I could've done that hours ago!! LOL :D
Anyway, I've now set the 'Music Quality' to maximum, and it does sound notably better - so thanks for that. We got there in the end, my friend :thumbsup:
Marco.
i did (I think) but obviously wasn't clear enough :lol:
I am curious about the way you attenuate the volume on your setup. How does the DAC on your Pi attenuate it ? There is a setting called "Hardware" attenuation in Volumio but on my setup it doesn't work. That is why I put a physical volume control in front of the amp. (It is actually just a Alps potentiometer). Maybe your Pi/DAC has that option ??
14259
I like the "not good for couch potatoes"
Not to worry, we're there now. You certainly did very well considering I presume that English isn't your first language?
I have to thank you, Rupert, for your help and patience in solving the matter for me. Not many folk would've gone to such trouble, so bravo! :clap:
Your kindness won't be forgotten... ;)
Marco.
I realize all these hardware options are easy to set up, whatever combination is used - if you have the spare dosh that is.
I am more interested in what is a good set up for SQ as this varies so much depending on who you talk to. I was just trying to get my head round what Marco was getting out of this hardware set up that impressed him so much. I like the idea of the integral DAC and no moving parts on the Pi for instance.
I can get my outdated PC in the next room to display images on my TV via an HDMI cable and sound via USB on my system DAC, I even have a USB linked sensor attached to my TV so I can use a PC remote control (£5 off the bay) this just looks like a TV remote and I can flick through itunes using it from the sofa. This works quite well but I was thinking of taking it to the next level and using hardware dedicated to Audio reproduction, and maybe a wifi tablet to browse the selections. Oh, and get rid of itunes in favour of Jriver.
CAD produce Audio PC's that have been tailored for SQ. They have their Windows operating system hacked to remove a hundred and twenty odd background routines, so the machine can consentrate all resources to the task in hand, they advocate no additional application software be loaded, other than to run the audio, not even web access and do all this through a seperate networked machine. They use SS hard drives in the PC and external devices for the Library. The list goes on but you can see they are building a platform to suit the end use. Their gear is a bit rich for me, a dedicated USB lead is £800, but the principles they apply can be adopted.
Thanks for the offer Rich, I may pick over your knowledge of the various bits of software at some point if thats all right, many of the names that crop up mean nothing to me, I see them quoted a lot but have no idea what they do. :)
I use my old vista laptops as music bases with external mini hard dri es usb connected . I take it out currently using a usb spdif or usb tos unit.. on main system i have 2. a beresford async1 for spidif and a sabre for mini tos. they go out to different dacs to give me a choice. if you switch most things off on the pc it is pretty quiet tbh and sounds very good. i have jriver and foobar...the latter is free and my preference actually. no need for it to cost much
Their gear is a bit rich for me, a dedicated USB lead is £800, but the principles they apply can be adopted.
I am 99.9999% certain that a £800 USB cable is a rip off. You don't need it. Same with extremely costly "audiophile" Ethernet cables. It's snake oil. And besides, part of the fun with the Raspi / DAC combinations is that they are very cheap. I would do some DAC swaps, but not invest in "audiophile" USB cables.
I am more interested in what is a good set up for SQ as this varies so much depending on who you talk to. I was just trying to get my head round what Marco was getting out of this hardware set up that impressed him so much. I like the idea of the integral DAC and no moving parts on the Pi for instance.
Well that's one significant advantage, Ken, especially when the sound quality of the DAC concerned is phenomenally good, and as cheap as chips! Did you miss the bit where I said that, for £32 it competes with, and in some areas outperforms, my superb and highly-modified Sony DAS-R1, which cost about £2500? ;)
The IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+, contained inside the Pi unit, is brand new technology and 32-bit, offering (bit-perfect) extremely high resolution, which is greater in that respect than the capability of Red Book CD. Therefore, when streaming the appropriate hi-res files, the sound quality is in a different league compared with what CD can do - even CDs played to a very high sonic standard, on the Sony.
Check out the spec: http://iqaudio.com/?page_id=454
The other major advantage is no moving parts of a CD transport mechanism, and the inevitable errors the process of reading a disc introduces, no matter how accurate the laser mechanism and associated parts. Ultimately, you simply don't need that physical interface to access the digital music information that is contained on a CD.
Furthermore, with the best recorded high-res music files, the Pi gets *very* close indeed to the performance of my T/T, which you heard and were very impressed with at Nebo, and that's cost me around £5k...
Therefore, given that the Pi (£40 for the unit itself and £32 for the DAC), at a total cost (excluding the wherewithal to use it) of £72, is competing with a £5k CDP (approx £2.5k for the CDP, and the same for the DAC), and a £5k turntable, what else can I do to stress just *how good* this Pi is??
:doh: :eyebrows:
Has the penny finally dropped now, mate? :)
Marco.
Yeh, I get the picture Marco :D
As for "The thing I don't understand is how can Ken post here if he doesn't have a Wi-Fi network??"
You dont actually need wi-fi for internet access, I have the former but not the latter.
How I do this is a deep, deep secret. :eyebrows:
Just wanted to post a pic of my little Pi running into the A717. As you see it is hooked up to the router via Ethernet and to the Amp via RCA / Cinch connectors. Power is supplied from a permanently charging 5v/2A power pack I got for less than 20$.
14260
I had posted a thread here too
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37443-This-is-a-monster-Pioneer-A717&p=631049#post631049
Yeh, I get the picture Marco :D
Excellent... I was beginning to think that I was speaking a foreign language!
As for "The thing I don't understand is how can Ken post here if he doesn't have a Wi-Fi network??"
You dont actually need wi-fi for internet access, I have the former but not the latter.
How I do this is a deep, deep secret...
Ah I see... Say no more, bad boy! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Roops,
i did (I think) but obviously wasn't clear enough :lol:
TBH, the Spotify software should make it a damn sight more obvious where the settings control panel is! And instead of it being accessed via a silly little arrow next to your name, should be prominently situated on a proper sized tab, on the main page.
I am curious about the way you attenuate the volume on your setup. How does the DAC on your Pi attenuate it ? There is a setting called "Hardware" attenuation in Volumio but on my setup it doesn't work. That is why I put a physical volume control in front of the amp. (It is actually just a Alps potentiometer). Maybe your Pi/DAC has that option ??
Nope, I'm not attenuating the Pi itself; I'm attenuating the volume of the Spotify music stream, by using a combination of Volumio and the sound contol mechanism on the Mac. Remember the little speaker icon you told me to ALT-click on yesterday, in order to stream Spotify from the Mac to the Pi?
It sounds better, set to about 70%, and then I use the Volumio web interface as a 'master volume' control, as it were. If I set the Mac volume to 100%, the sound becomes too saturated/overblown/loud and aggressive.
I hope that makes sense? I can't attenuate the sound level, leaving the Pi to my power amp, when streaming files from my hard-drives, other than by reducing the volume, via the Volumio web interface.
However, apparently you can attenuate the Pi and/or the partnering DAC by using some other form of software. See this discussion about it on Hi-Fi Wigwam: http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?104958-IQaudIO-Pi-DAC-24-192-DAC-for-Raspberry-Pi
14259
I like the "not good for couch potatoes"
I know... I giggled at that yesterday! :D
Marco.
Curious, but if it works for you its great ! On my system I could hear a degradation as soon as I started using either the Mac volume control or the one in the Spotify app or a combination of both as you seem to do. My DAC doesn't react to the Volumio web interface, its just on 100% all the time. But for casual listening it is more than fine.
There is some interesting info here about the i2s interface and the path the zeros and ones take to get converted into what we love best, beautiful sound.. I think that is part of the "secret" why the Pi/DAC combo sounds so good because it circumvents the usual interfaces (USB, Optical, etc.) and gets the data to the converter on a very short path (no cables either)
https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/
Well that's one significant advantage, Ken, especially when the sound quality of the DAC concerned is phenomenally good, and as cheap as chips! Did you miss the bit where I said that, for £32 it competes with, and in some areas outperforms, my superb and highly-modified Sony DAS-R1, which cost about £2500? ;)
The IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+, contained inside the Pi unit, is brand new technology and 32-bit, offering (bit-perfect) extremely high resolution, which is greater in that respect than the capability of Red Book CD. Therefore, when streaming the appropriate hi-res files, the sound quality is in a different league compared with what CD can do - even CDs played to a very high sonic standard, on the Sony.
Check out the spec: http://iqaudio.com/?page_id=454
The other major advantage is no moving parts of a CD transport mechanism, and the inevitable errors the process of reading a disc introduces, no matter how accurate the laser mechanism and associated parts. Ultimately, you simply don't need that physical interface to access the digital music information that is contained on a CD.
Furthermore, with the best recorded high-res music files, the Pi gets *very* close indeed to the performance of my T/T, which you heard and were very impressed with at Nebo, and that's cost me around £5k...
Therefore, given that the Pi (£40 for the unit itself and £32 for the DAC), at a total cost (excluding the wherewithal to use it) of £72, is competing with a £5k CDP (approx £2.5k for the CDP, and the same for the DAC), and a £5k turntable, what else can I do to stress just *how good* this Pi is??
:doh: :eyebrows:
Has the penny finally dropped now, mate? :)
Marco.
Ha, they sell an amp module! Begs to be done.
I'm gonna build one...
Just read this whole thread with great interest. I'm already streaming from a netbook amd impressed with the convenience and sound quality. So how does this sound for a cheap second system? Hard drive into Raspberry pi and associated DAC, into a cheap T-Amp as a power amp, controlled from smartphone or tablet? And if this would work, any recommendations for which T-Amp? Could all be very compact and neatened up with a bit of decent casing.
if you would like to build an amp, a good place to start would be www.diyaudio.com (t-amp, class-d amp section). eBay is awash with modules from 3$ to 300$. You'll need a power supply. There are also ready built ones like the SMSL's which are about 60$ and sound very good imho.
I got this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/171314395055?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&afsrc=1&rmvSB=true) for 3$ (its gone up since). Hook up a computer PSU and it actually works.
And this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/251670062521?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Thanks, but I was thinking that something like this www.amptastic.com (https://www.amptastic.com/) or a cheaper T Amp might be the quickest and easiest way to a genuine hi fi mini set-up.
brian2957
24-03-2015, 17:14
The Amptastic Mini-1 is excellent for the money . That's what I'm using at the moment .
So (because I have very little tech knowledge) would the Amptastic (or similar) work as the power amp to a Raspberry pi2/IQ? Does the output from the pi suit the Amptastic used as a power amp? Just wondering . . .
yes, I'm quite sure it would. I used mine with the SMSL which is similar to the Amptastic.
Thanks, but I was thinking that something like this www.amptastic.com (https://www.amptastic.com/) or a cheaper T Amp might be the quickest and easiest way to a genuine hi fi mini set-up.
yep, the Amptastic would most definitely be much better :)
Curious, but if it works for you its great ! On my system I could hear a degradation as soon as I started using either the Mac volume control or the one in the Spotify app or a combination of both as you seem to do. My DAC doesn't react to the Volumio web interface, its just on 100% all the time. But for casual listening it is more than fine.
No worries - whatever works, works! :)
The Mac volume control needs to be set at something, in order to hear any music on Spotify at all.
Therefore, when accessing Spotify, I simply use the Mac as a 'gain control', and once the level is set to a point that I consider as optimal (rather like adjusting the input signal level when making recordings using a tape deck with VU meters, so that the levels don't go into the red, thus saturating the signal). However, of course, in this instance there are no meters - I can only use my ears to judge things.
Of course it is also recording dependent, as some are louder than others. However, once the 'gain' is correct (to my ears), I use the Volumio web interface to control the 'master volume' of the music I'm listening to. If I bring a preamp into the equation it simply results in a loss of fidelity, so the connection is direct to my valve power amp, which fortunately is very sensitive.
As is outlined in the link you've supplied below, the beauty of the Pi is in its simplicity and very short signal paths, therefore my methodology is simply to maintain that simplicity (and signal integrity) throughout its application in my system.
There is some interesting info here about the i2s interface and the path the zeros and ones take to get converted into what we love best, beautiful sound.. I think that is part of the "secret" why the Pi/DAC combo sounds so good because it circumvents the usual interfaces (USB, Optical, etc.) and gets the data to the converter on a very short path (no cables either)
https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/
Brilliant, and most interesting indeed!
That's precisely why I've kept its use in my system as simple as possible, and declined the use of an off-board DAC (and cables), as quite simply, I don't think you can better the Pi's combination with the hard-wired IQ-Audio DAC (certainly not without great difficulty and massive expense), so adding a 'fancy' off-board DAC, and resulting jitter, created as a by-product of employing the use of cables, is most likely going to be a waste of money, and thus a pointless exercise.
Marco.
" https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/
Brilliant, and most interesting indeed!"
Whats most interesting are the comments made after the article from users, especially Ralf.
Not sure I really understand what he's on about (his English isn't very good), but you also need to read the subsequent replies from IQ-Audio. Remember also that I'm not using the Hi-Fi Berry interface.
All I know is that I've got two superb sounding 'conventional' music sources (CDP and T/T), and in my system, the Pi/DAC, fed with appropriate quality recordings, can compete at their performance level - and I'm not alone in feeling that way, as others I know with similar quality equipment have reached the same conclusions.
I don't rave about something for nothing! ;)
Marco.
" https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/
Brilliant, and most interesting indeed!"
Whats most interesting are the comments made after the article from users, especially Ralf.
So ? I trust my ears more than Ralf's opinion. C'mon. This thing costs 10x less than that 800£ USB cable :D
So ? I trust my ears more than Ralf's opinion.
Exactly! Ken just seems to have a downer on the Pi (and the whole FBA thing), for reasons best known to him.
Marco.
You won't win Marco, the doubters will always doubt and I'm not sure why. Ignorance, fear . . . who knows why?. It often baffles me that instead of just accepting it and being happy for those that enjoy it, they feel the need to try and discredit it. Been there many times over the years and mostly from people who have never heard a good file based audio system - odd, almost as if they have a hidden agenda :scratch:
Plenty of room for everyone to enjoy their music, however it might be served up.
BTH K10A
24-03-2015, 19:45
Hi Andy,
Believe me, I know where you're coming from, and the last bit applies to me every bit as much as it does you.
However, at the end of the day, an FBA device is just another source of music, the same as a turntable or CD player. Therefore, in my system, it just sits there in the room, the same as the rest of the kit, as a tiny little box on top of my DAC, so what's the problem? It's not taking away anything.... I still use my T/T and CDP just as much as before.
It certainly adds plenty, in terms of benefits, and for less than I've paid in the past for half a case of wine!
I now have 2TB worth of music (thousands of albums) I never had before, and the ability to access it from anywhere in the house, or outside in the garden, all at the touch of a button. The convenience it provides, however, is outweighed by the benefits it brings to your enjoyment of music - and how it encourages you to listen to even MORE music...
I can sit downstairs in the lounge, where the Celestion 66s are, and whilst sipping a nice glass of wine in front of the coal fire, explore a huge library of music (superb sounding hi-res 24-bit stuff; resolution that is beyond the capability of Red Book CD), and add to that library at any time by ripping it from my existing CD, or even vinyl, collection.
None of that detracts in any way whatsoever from my enjoyment of vinyl, or collecting records - so what's not to like? :)
Marco.
I can see the benefits Marco but for me I would probably only use it for convenience or background music in much the same way as I listen to music via my tuner.
Not knocking your judgement Marco, I'm sure what you have sounds VERY good.
I've been looking at file based sytems for a while now and different approaches come to the for from time to time. I liked the idea of i2s as it gets rid of USB but it is after all just another serial bus. Short signal paths are allways a good thing so it all sounds good but........
I actually read all 33 comments before posting and what Ralf claims is pretty clear and most notably not denied in the IQ-Audio response, they mearly side step the lack of 24 bit support by stating (the writer that is) that he could never hear the difference between 16bit and 24bit anyway. There was no come back on the stated poor clock and jitter on the Rpi.
All this might be irrelevant as these things are constantly changing and it may be fixed now.
Just making the point hear that there's more than one way to skin a cat, CAD won best sound in show at Bristol 2013 with their FBA system which used Kernel streaming and asynchronous USB DAC. (Jriver/Jplayer)
So just a heads up that there are other choices available.
No denying the low cost of the Rpi unit/DAC but if your current DAC will handle kernel streaming you are well on your way. The largest cost in either is to build a NAS raid system with two discs to automatically mirror your precious data in case of one disc failing, pretty much essential I think, so good choice Marco.
I may yet end up with an Rpi in my system, I wonder if anyone will be using one at the Wam show as I am going to that for the first time this weekend. Like you I trust my lug holes more than a report telling me this or that about the science involved.:)
After seeing a few replies while I was typing - I'm not down on the Pi its just I have not seen anyone explain what makes it special over any other system. Its not the best computer or best DAC ever made is it, so what is it that makes it work so well. I would like to hear one if I get the chance.
As I pointed out earlier I have a FBA system, I am looking to improve on that, but dont want to spend my hard earned on the wrong upgrade so I am asking the appropriate questions of those that have gone this route.
I read somewhere some use a sabre dac with it as well. you need an external clock though so adds expense. It is all things to most people it seems, but I get confused easily with ll the different bits so will just have to struggle on with what Ive got for now. Would like to hear on though.
Fair enough, Ken.
Indeed, they may well have fixed whatever it was that was supposed to be wrong since that discussion, but as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or in this case the listening, so I don't give a monkey's toss what some folk are waffling about on a blog!
It's the end results achieved that matter, and what my own ears and experience tells me - and they're telling me that the Pi is a rather special little device, and somewhat of a giant-killer, although as with anything else, it isn't perfect. This is just the beginning of the journey, mate, much like it was when you started modifying the crossovers on your 66s - and look how that turned out in the end.... ;)
Paul Hynes is working for me right now not only on an off-board linear PSU, for the Pi, but an individually regulated circuit, to minimise switching noise and distortion from the Pi's power system, similar to what he did with the Technics SL-1200 (featured in the regulator boards I use with mine, via his SR7 PSU), although of course that didn't exhibit any switching noise, so the results produced by whatever he comes up with are potentially rather exiting!
Doubtless there will also be all sorts of other tweaks produced for the Pi, in due course. The important thing is that the core product is excellent - and very cost effective!!
No denying the low cost of the Rpi unit/DAC but if your current DAC will handle kernel streaming you are well on your way. The largest cost in either is to build a NAS raid system with two discs to automatically mirror your precious data in case of one disc failing, pretty much essential I think, so good choice Marco.
Cheers, the RAID system was Dunc's idea, not mine, which he implemented. I just bought the NAS box from him :)
Marco.
Marco, my USB to SPDIF front end with a custom media PC absolutely destroys any CD transport I've used, so I get what you're saying... ;)
Even when playing CDs the media sever sounds the same, because it buffers it all into memory anyway.
Still, am going to have to give this device a go as if it's even near your existing gear then a no-brainer to try!
Exactly! Ken just seems to have a downer on the Pi (and the whole FBA thing), for reasons best known to him.
Marco.
Hi Marco, glad to see you're enjoying file streaming...:)
The only annoying thing is that some of us have been at it for years, and just waiting for the Pi 2 and appropriate software for months...and you beat us to the punch!!! ;)
I've had the Pi for 4 weeks, IQaudio board on the way, squeezeplug downloaded, could be very interesting comparison to SBTouch and HiFimeDIY U2 combo...:eyebrows:
After seeing a few replies while I was typing - I'm not down on the Pi its just I have not seen anyone explain what makes it special over any other system. Its not the best computer or best DAC ever made is it, so what is it that makes it work so well. I would like to hear one if I get the chance.
As I pointed out earlier I have a FBA system, I am looking to improve on that, but dont want to spend my hard earned on the wrong upgrade so I am asking the appropriate questions of those that have gone this route.
Ken, I think for the first time, there is a streamer / DAC that costs peanuts and sounds good. As I alluded in an earlier post, I dont understand why you dont just try it ? I don't want to appear patronising but at the cost of a combo, you really can't go wrong. Worst case just use it to stream music to the ladies room stereo.
r100 - Its the cost of a raid storage system that is prohibitive.
I wouldn't go any other way than a NAS storage. I ripped all my CD's once and don't want to keep doing this so thats part of my reasoning £100 for the Rpi/Dac or whatever it is and £300 for the library storage. Bear in mind I am using a 2nd hand laptop out of the arc and extra luxuries like tablets also add to the cost. So just being cautious in my approach before spending what little I have.
Ok, I get it. I use a Sinology NAS which has been running for the last 4 years practically non-stop without the slightest problem. It is a redundant RAID, two bay model. Nowadays, you can find similar models second hand for very little. Add two HD's or SSD's and you are good to go. If your NAS is not in the listening room (and even if it where) SSD are probably not required. I can recommend the Sinology NAS because it has the most comprehensive OS I have seen to date on a NAS. It also has several custom built apps to stream music, videos, etc. To stream audio, you don't need the latest, biggest most powerful model. Video streaming / encoding is another matter but my 4 year old NAS is more than capable of streaming (no realtime encoding) multiple streams of video to the whole house at the same time. In fact, it even has a USB audio out port on the back which works, I used it for a while.
greets
ru
this is one of the more recent models (https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS214play) which is tailored for streaming but will happily backup all your data, serve web pages and much more simultaneously.
Ali Tait
24-03-2015, 20:43
This is similar to what I use-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Drobo-FS-DRDS2-A-5-x-Drives-1-8TB-1-63TB-actual-/111627074443?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item19fd7dfb8b
Good thing with these is that they automatically back up your files between the drives, and you can hot swap drives to upgrade capacity or for a faulty drive without losing any data.
Ru - the Sinology was one I was looking at.
Ali - I will look at your recomendation too, hot swapping is a +.
I would have the NAS unit in the next room so don't need use silent SSD I was thinking along the lines of 2x 2TB. That should allow for High definition or 1bit if I want.
Which brings me to DSD, will this work on the Pi? Some say it is the future of FBA, but the files are 30 times bigger. I have been out of the technology loop for a while and desperately been playing catch up, I haven't even got to look software yet.
cool, actually, you can hot-swap the syno depending on the RAID level you choose. The default syno-RAID is hot swappable. But I must admit that I have never had to swap any HD's since I have had the NAS. It's just nice to know that the data is redundant and as safe as it gets. When you choose the size of your HD's dont forget to get an external cheap USB HD that can hold the contents of your NAS as a backup.
Btw. in redundant RAID mode 2x2T = 2T (not 4T). Less space but more data security.
I don't know if DSD is supported yet on the Pi/DAC.. I am sure it will be in the near future. Things evolve quickly. The problem I have with DSD is that it is difficult to get proper DSD file currently. I have a Yulong DA8 DAC which supports DSD but have not used that functionality.. :roll eyes:
Ru - There you go, just lost me.
I thought you could use a pair of discs that are mirrored so you get identical files saved to each automatically?
So why do you need a back up?
The backup is just to an extra layer of security not really needed but it gives me peace of mind. I have backups, photos, etc. on my NAS I wouldn't want to lose.
here (http://forum.synology.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_Synology_Hybrid_RAID%3F) is some info on the RAID types Synology use
Hi Neil,
Marco, my USB to SPDIF front end with a custom media PC absolutely destroys any CD transport I've used, so I get what you're saying... ;)
Even when playing CDs the media sever sounds the same, because it buffers it all into memory anyway.
Still, am going to have to give this device a go as if it's even near your existing gear then a no-brainer to try!
If you can get it working at your place as well as it does here, then I don't think you'll be disappointed :)
We'll have to start a Pi-boys club on AoS, sponsored by Ginsters! :yesbruv:
:D
Marco.
Hi Will,
Good to see you, mate. Hope life is treating you well!
Hi Marco, glad to see you're enjoying file streaming...
The only annoying thing is that some of us have been at it for years, and just waiting for the Pi 2 and appropriate software for months...and you beat us to the punch!!! ;)
Lol! As you correctly say, lots of folk have been onto it for ages. I was simply introduced to it by some friends, heard what it was like in my system, and bought it! In the AoS 'SPPV tradition' it's my duty to alert members to potential 'giant-killers', such as the Pi, and that's exactly what I'm doing :)
I've had the Pi for 4 weeks, IQaudio board on the way, squeezeplug downloaded, could be very interesting comparison to SBTouch and HiFimeDIY U2 combo...:eyebrows:
Cool. Let us know how you get on! :cool:
Marco.
Have followed the in-and-outs of this thread with interest...
Not much point for my main system but sounds like this might be interesting for a planned second system in my shed if it would work with my old (intel) Mac Mini running Snow Leopard using a Topping 2 as amp. The old Mac don't have an optical out so a DAC would be pointless but if I could link an SSD directly to the Pi setup ... or access Wifi to link to a NAS connected to the house router I am supposing it all could work ;)
Does the Pi have WiFi or would that be another piggyback board required?
If so, can this all be controlled via the Mac (given it's limitations) or would I need a monitor card for the Pi?
Have followed the in-and-outs of this thread with interest...
Not much point for my main system but sounds like this might be interesting for a planned second system in my shed if it would work with my old (intel) Mac Mini running Snow Leopard using a Topping 2 as amp. The old Mac don't have an optical out so a DAC would be pointless but if I could link an SSD directly to the Pi setup ... or access Wifi to link to a NAS connected to the house router I am supposing it all could work ;)
Does the Pi have WiFi or would that be another piggyback board required?
If so, can this all be controlled via the Mac (given it's limitations) or would I need a monitor card for the Pi?
I think you'd just put a USB WiFi dongle in one of the spare ports. They're cheap enough.
I read somewhere some use a sabre dac with it as well. you need an external clock though so adds expense. It is all things to most people it seems, but I get confused easily with ll the different bits so will just have to struggle on with what Ive got for now. Would like to hear on though.
That's what I'd use sabre9023 sounds great and cheap dac I posted before has its own 8v psu for an extra tenner.
Can I just point out to all considering this that RAID is not as 'safe as it gets' certainly in RAID 1 or mirrored drive mode.
RAID is not a backup it is a method to increase the mean time to data loss in a storage system.
Whatever RAID you have you still need a separate back up.
Deleting a file, corruption of a file, virus infection or simple user error deleting a folder and its tree on a RAID 1 will mean the very same files get deleted or corrupted on the mirror disk a few milli seconds later! You need a separate backup to protect from data loss.
Maybe not so key for the domestic user but worth understanding is that drives are getting larger and if using 3~4TB+ sized drives consider the rebuild time involved in a RAID system especially a stripped parity RAID 5 or 4 and the risk of a second drive loss. It takes a long time to rebuild a 4TB drive and your data is at risk if another drive should fail during that time. You need a separate back up!
Yes its more expense but if you have invested all that time to rip your CD collection or digitize your favorite LP's and edit them ask yourself would you like to do it all again? You need a separate back up! :D
I have 5 copies of my music and photos.....well most of them. I update every couple of months and also take a cloned copy of my whole pc system onto a drive. With usb3 it is not too long a job.
If you have a phone or tablet which runs Android lollipop v5 is then you have USB audio from your device to the dac of your choice. Also running on battery will negate the need for any nasty PSUs.
You have a world of purpose built apps also. Much more user friendly than a squeezebox touch or the pi option.
I also hear Apple devices are going to support USB audio as well if they don't already.
Just saying, although I will try the pi just for daftness sake.
Neal -thanks for the clarification on Raid set up.
Audio Advent
25-03-2015, 01:39
Can I just point out to all considering this that RAID is not as 'safe as it gets' certainly in RAID 1 or mirrored drive mode.
RAID is not a backup it is a method to increase the mean time to data loss in a storage system.
Whatever RAID you have you still need a separate back up.
Deleting a file, corruption of a file, virus infection or simple user error deleting a folder and its tree on a RAID 1 will mean the very same files get deleted or corrupted on the mirror disk a few milli seconds later! You need a separate backup to protect from data loss.
Maybe not so key for the domestic user but worth understanding is that drives are getting larger and if using 3~4TB+ sized drives consider the rebuild time involved in a RAID system especially a stripped parity RAID 5 or 4 and the risk of a second drive loss. It takes a long time to rebuild a 4TB drive and your data is at risk if another drive should fail during that time. You need a separate back up!
Yes its more expense but if you have invested all that time to rip your CD collection or digitize your favorite LP's and edit them ask yourself would you like to do it all again? You need a separate back up! :D
I see large hard drives as a risk in themselves. Firstly it means more data to loose with a single drive going bad, secondly in order to create a safer RAID system and back up you end up with such vast data resources that everything takes an absolute age to sort out that you end up less likely to perform regular safety backups. I'd rather have lots of really cheap small capacity drives myself.
My best music back-up system is the CD/vinyl/cassette. Funny how they seem to last decades but data so easily gets lost or corrupted or obsolete! I consider FBA as a short-term listening solution. If I think of data I had on computers 10 years ago, I remember it is still on the 10 year old harddrive which wouldn't boot and was backed-up on the drive which blew a capacitor near the power connector.. Select bits of data are on CD-Rs which are all scratched up because who buys bulk CD-Rs with actual cases, and CD drives are now fast becoming obsolete too.
I also hear Apple devices are going to support USB audio as well if they don't already.
That's interesting, do you have a link with some more info ? thank's
RAID is not a backup it is a method to increase the mean time to data loss in a storage system.
Sorry, but I dont agree, it is far safer than backing up to multiple DVD's or CD's in a backup set. If one of them goes down you loose your backup set or at best the CD/DVD that went down. And it is a known fact that home burnt optical media is not stable over time. I agree it is not 100% safe but it is as close as you can get. Your are also right about the rebuild time it is a long process and can fail, but even with a power outage during rebuild, 99% of the time, the rebuild will resume. If not, you have the backup for your data on an external USB drive. These systems are used in professional environments. They dont use optical media to back up as far as I can see.
Whatever RAID you have you still need a separate back up.
I absolutely agree with that. The cost of an external USB enclosure with a large enough drive is not that steep and will save you hours of pain in case of a catastrophic data loss.
The Black Adder
25-03-2015, 06:44
Sorry, but I dont agree, it is far safer than backing up to multiple DVD's or CD's in a backup set. If one of them goes down you loose your backup set or at best the CD/DVD that went down. And it is a known fact that home burnt optical media is not stable over time. I agree it is not 100% safe but it is as close as you can get. Your are also right about the rebuild time it is a long process and can fail, but even with a power outage during rebuild, 99% of the time, the rebuild will resume. If not, you have the backup for your data on an external USB drive. These systems are used in professional environments. They dont use optical media to back up as far as I can see.
I absolutely agree with that. The cost of an external USB enclosure with a large enough drive is not that steep and will save you hours of pain in case of a catastrophic data loss.
+1 RAID is a back-up system. But like any other medium of data backup you need to retire the drives after 1 to 2 years or so just to be on the safe side so it's imperative to do stored backups. BUT NOT ON CD/DVD.... Arrgh!..:doh:
So you must ghost the RAID anyway. But of course it depends on how valuable you see your data in the end.
If a drive fails the data can be retrieved too... it's expensive but so is mostly anything in hifi... well, apart from the Pi... lol
+1 loosing valuable data is the most expensive item on my list :)
Guys, guys, guys, trust me RAID is not a backup system!!! You are fooling yourselves if you think it is. Don't just take it from me....(I do work in the computer data storage industry though ;) )
One of many Google links: http://www.overclock.net/t/1254683/why-raid-is-not-a-backup-solution
I never mentioned backup to CD/DVD (BTW I have ripped CD's from 1997 that still play perfectly well ;) ) use another disk set preferably 2.
I will even go as far to say you maybe better off with a single high reliability drive for your music store and perform regular incremental backups to a second and third drive...like I do :)
To me the best solution is just to have two identical drives, one for data, one for back up.
The problem with a lot of back up software is it tries to compress and in some cases encrypt the data. I lost a lot of data/my portfolio due to this and as the company had gone out of business I could not retrive any of my images, even though I still had the files that had been backed up. Unfortunately the machine that had the back up software on had been scrapped and I did not have a copy of the software used.
What is needed is software that will just dump everything unaltered on to another drive (full back up) or only additional/altered files since the last back up (progressive back up). The chances of loosing two drives simultaneously by them malfunctioning is so remote as not to be a worry. If you have a fire or are burgled you have bigger worries than just the data, the only way to protect against this is to keep the back up off site, I used to be responsible for incrumental back ups at work for the design data and kept a copy in the fire proof safe at work and also one at home. I will not use any third party web based back up of ANY kind.
Guys, guys, guys... Could we please draw the conversation about RAID to a swift an end as possible, and return to discussing the Pi? All this techy-talk about non-hifi related bollox is making me YAWN.
Ta! :cool:
Marco.
To be honest Marco the issue of reliable (and inexpensive) storage and backup is the one thing that puts me off getting a Pi to use as you described and I think that Neal has some very sound advice to offer.
Like others, I hadn't realised that dual drive raids were not self supporting and require additional drives of equal size for backup - this knocks this system out of my price range straight off. I have no need to use another device such as Pi to access Spotify or other online sources - I have my Mac/DAC combo for that already.
Storage reliability is one of the main drawbacks of digital systems - and I've lost enough data over the years to take it lightly ...
The Black Adder
25-03-2015, 09:10
Guys, guys, guys, trust me RAID is not a backup system!!! You are fooling yourselves if you think it is. Don't just take it from me....(I do work in the computer data storage industry though ;) )
One of many Google links: http://www.overclock.net/t/1254683/why-raid-is-not-a-backup-solution
I never mentioned backup to CD/DVD (BTW I have ripped CD's from 1997 that still play perfectly well ;) ) use another disk set preferably 2.
I will even go as far to say you maybe better off with a single high reliability drive for your music store and perform regular incremental backups to a second and third drive...like I do :)
I can see where you are coming from, sure. The thing is you can use RAID as a back-up system. You just need to retire the drives after a couple of years and make sure that you ghost them after year one.
Inherently RAID is a data security system designed to make sure that the data (a mirror of drive A to drive B,C,D etc.) is safer being stored twice+ rather than once but it's a very good way of backing up data so long as you do the above.
It's much easier to use these days too than the SCSI drives of olde too. Still, nothing wrong with SCSI, still does the job in the end.
www.amazon.co.uk/Toshiba-HDTB305EK3AA-Canvio-Basics-External/dp/B00KWHJT7Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427274657&sr=8-2&keywords=usb+500gb+external
just buy a few of these folks. cheap n cheerful...just like the pi.
The Black Adder
25-03-2015, 09:20
To be honest Marco the issue of reliable (and inexpensive) storage and backup is the one thing that puts me off getting a Pi to use as you described and I think that Neal has some very sound advice to offer.
Like others, I hadn't realised that dual drive raids were not self supporting and require additional drives of equal size for backup - this knocks this system out of my price range straight off. I have no need to use another device such as Pi to access Spotify or other online sources - I have my Mac/DAC combo for that already.
Storage reliability is one of the main drawbacks of digital systems - and I've lost enough data over the years to take it lightly ...
These are great... http://www.ebuyer.com/661687-wd-my-book-duo-dual-drive-raid-storage-4tb-usb-3-0-external-hard-wdblwe0040jch-eesn?utm_source=google&utm_medium=products&gclid=CjwKEAjwucmoBRDmysGsgbDr5j0SJAAxL9ab9UAgejUR _LDiM8VR9k3LiJj-ilaydtIkrogGpfXEMRoCBsPw_wcB
I know of a few who has them for music, including myself. It's not a professional answer but it's just the ticket for a small budget.
Storage stability is extremely good these days. Don't be put off by all this talk of losing data, the chances of you losing everything is pretty remote. Sorry if it's scare mongering. lol
So long as you look after your kit (which I'm sure you do) there is no reason why one HDD shouldn't just last and last. You have more chance of scratching an LP than for a good quality drive to go down.
If a HDD does go down, well ... what if your cd collection gets pinched or your cd player's laser foobar's? Both examples are quite remote in todays terms but in a way, it's a similar thing... the ability to play your music has therefore diminished.
To be honest Marco the issue of reliable (and inexpensive) storage and backup is the one thing that puts me off getting a Pi to use as you described and I think that Neal has some very sound advice to offer.
Like others, I hadn't realised that dual drive raids were not self supporting and require additional drives of equal size for backup - this knocks this system out of my price range straight off. I have no need to use another device such as Pi to access Spotify or other online sources - I have my Mac/DAC combo for that already.
Storage reliability is one of the main drawbacks of digital systems - and I've lost enough data over the years to take it lightly ...
Absolutely, Mike.
Don't get me wrong, Neal's advice is appreciated and very relevant, but once some reasonable discussion has taken place in reference to storage and back-up (and we're reaching that point now), I'd like to return to discussing the usefulness/functionality and sonic merits of the Pi, as that was the main purpose of the thread.
The storage and back-up issues apply to any FBA set-up, not just the Pi, so let's get back on-topic and discuss matters of specific relevance to the above. If someone wants to start a thread about functionality or reliability of RAID and/or any matter pertaining to HD storage or back-up, they are welcome to start another thread on this section of the forum.
Cheers :cool:
Oh, and just one quick point about safe back-up, which is certainly relevant in my case, and the main reason why I bought the Pi in the first place, was to rip my own physical music collection, on vinyl or CD, and add to that library of music, through the continual purchase of CDs or records, and ripping them to hard-drives (for convenient access to the music, through streaming it), not to download music that I don't own from the Internet - especially the paid-for variety! :nono:
Therefore, what better fail-safe back-up system is there than owning and retaining the original music? If anything should get lost, through hard-drive failure, then I still have the original records or CDs to play on my CDP or turntable, and I can then repeat the ripping process again. In that respect, nothing is really 'lost'. It's not as if the only music I've got is on hard-drive.
Job done! :)
Marco.
Ok, guys, enough now about storage! Back to the Pi.............
If there are any further posts about storage safety (as it is non-specific to the Pi), they will simply be moved to a separate thread, with that as its title.
Marco.
SSD I would agree with - HDD ... absolutely not. I have lost a fair few even in recent 'improved' times
All not a problem if you have enough (and diverse) backup and do it regularly BUT the bigger your archive the pricier and more time consuming the backup. I stopped using gizmos such as Time Machine yonks ago since a virus wiped both disks out - even Apple gets viruses...
Ahem! See my last post ;)
Marco.
I think my post was simultaneous ;)
.. have started a new thread on storage:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37577-Digital-storage-RAID-or-what&p=632182#post632182
My slice of PI:
http://s18.postimg.org/e1syoses5/rpidigi_1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/e1syoses5/)
http://s21.postimg.org/jq9bgr7cj/rpidigi_2.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/jq9bgr7cj/)
Snapped this up on fleabay several weeks ago for <£50 including 16gb SD card and case, but not a psu. I'm using coax out into one of Stan's DACs, the PI is connected via ethernet cable. Audio Files are stored on network and/or USB memory stick inserted in PI.
As a Linux tinkerer, I went through Volumio, Rune. Squeezeplug, picoplayer and finally "Squeeze on Arch". The first two are MDP based, while the others are LMS based. I settled on "Squeeze on Arch" for now, sq is great for the money.
Macro, what case is your Pi and DAC housed in? I''m curious to try one against my highly modded SB and wondered if there was a starter kit witch case Pi, DAC, PSU etc......
Macro, what case is your Pi and DAC housed in? I''m curious to try one against my highly modded SB and wondered if there was a starter kit witch case Pi, DAC, PSU etc......
Hi,
Check out IQaudio. com they sell via Tindie. com which shows in dollars but is actually based in Glasgow and can supply all you need [emoji6]
Cheers Mike! Thank you...
Cheers Mike! Thank you...
Hi,
I would have copied in the links for you but I was using my phone to post ;)
Mike.
Marco - like you I only have file copies of music I own in the tangeable form, like CD's.
My present system, although maxed out in capacity would do a half decent job with this ripped stuff and CD quality varies tremendously.
I think there are a few changes around the corner for FBA though and its the ability of the Rpi to cater for these that has got me digging into functionality and compatibility issues. I think we will see an increase in DSD music releases and also in high definition downloadable material. To date I have never downloaded any music as compressed and lossy does not do it for me. The high res stuff comming through really does look to be the final nail in CD's coffin though. I can see the distribution chain breaking down when it no longer makes enough profit for them to bother with. There will still be small bands doing CD's to flog at the venue but even that is turning file based as it costs less to produce and is allways available, they will never run out of stock like with CD's so I think it's inevitable. Blue Ray is the media to use and sound quality is superb but no one seems to want to go that route.
I am hoping the Rpi will keep pace with these changes as they continue to role out, as replacing just this part of your FBA system to the latest model is not too painfull on the pocket.
You can never be future proof, so at some point I will have to get my feet wet and join the club. ;)
One further question: anyone tried the RPi with the IQ dac+ and the Pi Amp plus? Looking on the Tindie site you could put together a decent little set-up for £150 (depending, of course, on the quality of the amp).
Macro, what case is your Pi and DAC housed in? I''m curious to try one against my highly modded SB and wondered if there was a starter kit witch case Pi, DAC, PSU etc......
Also look here, Neal: http://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/raspberry-pi
:)
Marco.
I like the 2.8" screen on the Pimoroni site, wonder if Volumio is usable on such a small screen directly connected to the Pi....
Rothchild
25-03-2015, 16:48
This is what I (still, 2 years later) run on my Pi: http://www.madsonic.org/ it will play FLAC and Wav straight out of the Pi but also give you an interface so you can log in to your Pi from anywhere on the internet and stream your music (and if your bandwidth is limited you can transcode down to mp3 so that you still get a good stream) great way to combine HiFiPi and a 'your music anywhere' solution.
Neat Marc, there seems to be a number of ways to use the Pi.
Spotted another screen: https://www.tindie.com/products/ozzmaker/piscreen-35-tft-with-touch-for-the-raspberry-pi/ But will it be usable with the IQAudio DAC? Are the GPIO pins passed through shared?
I read somewhere some use a sabre dac with it as well. you need an external clock though so adds expense. It is all things to most people it seems, but I get confused easily with ll the different bits so will just have to struggle on with what Ive got for now. Would like to hear on though.
I have a 40 EUR Sabre DAC on my Pi and it sounds 99.5% as good as my "high-end" Sabre DAC. The 0.5% difference is because I can't believe it sounds so good :) never mind da Jitter !
The IQAudio DAC is out-of-stock until the end of April but there's the HiFiBerry one that uses the same PCM5122....hmmmm, they also do a digital amp board! Class D, plug straight into the Pi, decisions, decisions. :scratch:
montesquieu
25-03-2015, 18:44
Coming late to this discussion, very interesting though.
I have asyncronous USB input now on my Audio Note DAC (kit 2.1x with upgraded components to essentially 4.1x spec) ... I wonder if the Pi could be made to work with it? Essentially would need either USB output or co-axial.
2TB NAS seems very reasonable in price these days - I have a couple of hundred CDs-worth of autorip MP3 files to download from amazon (should be far more but most CDs I buy tend to be from marketplace vendors), ripping a few thousand CDs could be a pain though and I probably won't bother .. I briefly had Spotify when I owned a SB Touch but it was useless for Classical music as very little in my specialist areas was available. Though I suspect I'd mainly use it to play rips of things like rare 78s which people have put up online.
Overall the user experience on the Touch (and the various phone apps) was pants for Classical mainly due to the database problem, even with no more than 100 or so CDs ripped - J.S. Bach being treated as different to Bach, J.S or, indeed, from Bach JS, with additional confusion about what constitutes a 'work' - classification at the 'song' level is a pretty poor basis for a useful taxonomy. But there are, I believe, better answers to this now through purchasing different database services. Ripping and manual tagging are only for trainspotter/OCD types - I remember a teacher I once had kept a meticulous, beautifully handwritten card index for his massive collection of cassettes .... not for me then or now!
SQ-wise, I found the Touch, even with an upgraded PSU, to be markedly inferior to the Audio Note CDT2/II transport - when added to the data management issue, it all meant that I just gave up on the whole streaming malarkey. (several times I actually).
Beyond the technical questions though, my main objection to all this is really philosophical - if music is found, started or stopped at a click, from a line in massive database, doesn't it cheapen the listening experience? I certainly found that with Spotify. As a musician myself I can't really be going with music as sonic wallpaper. The effort of manually selecting, opening, placing a physical object on or inside a device, operating that device, reading sleeve notes or libretti, and prior to that physically purchasing and owning something tangible, all this brings something to the listening experience that scrolling down a list on a screen can never provide.
Canetoad
25-03-2015, 23:11
The IQAudio DAC is out-of-stock until the end of April but there's the HiFiBerry one that uses the same PCM5122....hmmmm, they also do a digital amp board! Class D, plug straight into the Pi, decisions, decisions. :scratch:
I have a HifiBerry DAC+ and have done comparisons to using the Digi+ and Caiman II external DAC. The Caiman is definitely better! That's using an RPi B+. I haven't tried it with the RPi 2. I will at some point.
Hi Bernie,
Have you tried plugging the HiFi Berry DAC directly into your power amp, minus a preamp, and then simply control the sound levels via Volumio?
Marco.
great ! :) do you think the RPi 2 will sound different with the same DAC ?
Ah I see... Well in that case, to address Neal's earlier dilemma, I would wait until the IQ-Audio DAC comes back into stock, as for me using it direct, like I am, is the way to hear it at its best and retain maximum resolution
Just squirt the signal straight into a power amp - nice and pure :)
Marco.
edit : My bad, it does !
Lol - scratch my previous post, then!
Marco.
I deleted my previous post because I was wrong.. apparently Bernies DAC does have HW volume control... sorry
Re Hifiberry
One thing is bugging me me... The HiFiBery doc it says
Hardware volume control. You can control the output volume using “alsamixer” or any application that supports ALSA mixer controls.
How can it be a "hardware volume control" when the volume is actually set by the alsamixer which is software ? I don't get it ??
The new HiFiBerry DAC+ board comes with an integrated volume control. The older non + uses software
Canetoad
26-03-2015, 01:52
Hi Bernie,
Have you tried plugging the HiFi Berry DAC directly into your power amp, minus a preamp, and hten simply control the sound levels via Volumio?
Marco.
No Marco I haven't. May be worth trying at some point.
If you're using Volumio to control the volume are you sure it's using the DAC+ hardware control or doing it in software?
Never mind, I revisited the settings for Volumio and it's selectable hardware/software. :)
Canetoad
26-03-2015, 01:55
great ! :) do you think the RPi 2 will sound different with the same DAC ?
I thought I could hear a difference between the B+ and 2B in my system using the HifiBerry Digi+. The 2B seemed a bit less congested.
Audio Advent
26-03-2015, 03:27
Coming late to this discussion, very interesting though.
I have asyncronous USB input now on my Audio Note DAC (kit 2.1x with upgraded components to essentially 4.1x spec) ... I wonder if the Pi could be made to work with it? Essentially would need either USB output or co-axial.
2TB NAS seems very reasonable in price these days - I have a couple of hundred CDs-worth of autorip MP3 files to download from amazon (should be far more but most CDs I buy tend to be from marketplace vendors), ripping a few thousand CDs could be a pain though and I probably won't bother .. I briefly had Spotify when I owned a SB Touch but it was useless for Classical music as very little in my specialist areas was available. Though I suspect I'd mainly use it to play rips of things like rare 78s which people have put up online.
Overall the user experience on the Touch (and the various phone apps) was pants for Classical mainly due to the database problem, even with no more than 100 or so CDs ripped - J.S. Bach being treated as different to Bach, J.S or, indeed, from Bach JS, with additional confusion about what constitutes a 'work' - classification at the 'song' level is a pretty poor basis for a useful taxonomy. But there are, I believe, better answers to this now through purchasing different database services. Ripping and manual tagging are only for trainspotter/OCD types - I remember a teacher I once had kept a meticulous, beautifully handwritten card index for his massive collection of cassettes .... not for me then or now!
SQ-wise, I found the Touch, even with an upgraded PSU, to be markedly inferior to the Audio Note CDT2/II transport - when added to the data management issue, it all meant that I just gave up on the whole streaming malarkey. (several times I actually).
Beyond the technical questions though, my main objection to all this is really philosophical - if music is found, started or stopped at a click, from a line in massive database, doesn't it cheapen the listening experience? I certainly found that with Spotify. As a musician myself I can't really be going with music as sonic wallpaper. The effort of manually selecting, opening, placing a physical object on or inside a device, operating that device, reading sleeve notes or libretti, and prior to that physically purchasing and owning something tangible, all this brings something to the listening experience that scrolling down a list on a screen can never provide.
Doesn't have to be either/or. Raspberry Pi is so cheap that you can get a system together which integrates with your current network (if you have such a thing already set up for other computer related purposes) and sounds great for the price of a crap CD player. I would see it as broadening one's options for experiencing music. There's plenty of bands/musicians/composers out there making their own music and only releasing their stuff via digital download, there are lots of hobbiests making recordings at recitals or making field recordings and putting them on the web for download, there are lots of freebees for experiencing high-rez audio and of course there are many high-rez audio stores which don't provide physical formats - having a FBA player that's easy and cheap just gives you another format player, like you might have a cassette player to hand for the odd thing you come across.
I think it's a nice, neat solution whereas normal PC/laptop permanently set up will just be a bit too over the top for most people and their homes and something like a Mac Mini too expensive.
Philosophically, does listening to the radio cheapen the listening experience? It's not much different other than you didn't even make those few clicks! Someone else even did that for you. One listens to the music and how you then associate with that music is kind of up to you. I find it makes no difference at all - if I love the music then whilst I'm listening to it, I still love it and value it. If it then makes you think of another piece you want to hear then you're not distracted in finding it as might be the case when searching for the physical copy. Just brings a different experience, not better not worse. (I'm only speaking from the point of view of playing stuff from my laptop... don't have any Pi yet).
No Marco I haven't. May be worth trying at some point.
I'd highly recommend it, Bernie, providing that your power amp is 'musically proficient' and sensitive enough not to need the incoming signal 'cosseted' by an active preamp, and the resulting loudness level suits the gain structure within your system.
If you're using Volumio to control the volume are you sure it's using the DAC+ hardware control or doing it in software?
Never mind, I revisited the settings for Volumio and it's selectable hardware/software...
What exactly do you mean by "hardware", and how would that offer a sonic advantage? I'm simply controlling the sound levels, through software, via the Volumio web interface - and the results are superb! :)
Marco.
Doesn't have to be either/or. Raspberry Pi is so cheap that you can get a system together which integrates with your current network (if you have such a thing already set up for other computer related purposes) and sounds great for the price of a crap CD player. I would see it as broadening one's options for experiencing music.
Spot on, and that's precisely why I got one.
IMO, no genuine 'music nut' (I'm using that term, rather than 'music lover' to differentiate between someone who simply enjoys listening to music, and someone who 'lives and breathes' it, and couldn't live without it), now that something such as the Pi has become available, offering superb sound quality and ease of use, for beer-token money, should be without an FBA source in their system.
Marco.
Canetoad
26-03-2015, 09:35
I'd highly recommend it, Bernie, providing that your power amp is 'musically proficient' and sensitive enough not to need the incoming signal 'cosseted' by an active preamp, and the resulting loudness level suits the gain structure within your system.
What exactly do you mean by "hardware", and how would that offer a sonic advantage? I'm simply controlling the sound levels, through software, via the Volumio web interface - and the results are superb! :)
Marco.
Select Menu/Playback/Volume Control Mixer from Volumio menu to select either software, hardware or disabled. I'd expect yours to be set to hardware with your setup.
Just checked, and indeed it is :)
Excuse my technical ignorance, but why does that make a difference?
Marco.
rectorydp
26-03-2015, 10:44
Just checked, and indeed it is :)
Excuse my technical ignorance, but why does that make a difference?
Marco.
Digital voume controls affect the bits in the signal. When you lower the volume some data is lost. The linked presentation http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf describes in more detail. Digital volume control has always been a bit of an issue and there were lots of discussions about this on the Slim Devices/Logitech forum in the distant past. The issue of digital volume control was also raised earlier in the thread but it turns out it is irrelevant because the Pi-DAC+ also has a hardware volume control using a rotary encoder, i.e. it is rather like a volume knob. I don't know much about the Pi-DAC+ implementation but it should mean that the hardware volume control just reduces the output amplitude in a similar way to lowering the volume on your amplifier.
However, the Pi-DAC+ does use a 32bit DAC chip so the impact of the digital volume should be much less than if you were using fewer bits (as indicated in the presentation).
Just found this thread - Late to the party as usual!
That was a great read. I've been running Volumio with a Pi and a HiFiBerry Digi for around a year now which replaced my Squeezebox Touch (which surprisingly I don't miss at all). The Digi runs into my Naim DAC. I've been enjoying this combination but it always caused me some annoyance, having read the white papers from Naim on how the DAC strips the incoming SPDIF signal of clock and provides a completely re-clocked signal thus rendering transport and cables unimportant, and jitter irrelevant, and yet I never found this to be true and the transport and the cable are as important as they ever were.
So reading about the IQAudio DAC has caused me some excitement and I'm going to have to try one. I have to admit that I'm sceptical that I'll find it as enjoyable as the current setup, but I'm fully prepared to be shocked!
If I am indeed blown away then this can only mean one thing - Sell the NAIM and the proceeds will fund my next cartridge :)
Hi David,
Digital voume controls affect the bits in the signal. When you lower the volume some data is lost. The linked presentation http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf describes in more detail. Digital volume control has always been a bit of an issue and there were lots of discussions about this on the Slim Devices/Logitech forum in the distant past. The issue of digital volume control was also raised earlier in the thread but it turns out it is irrelevant because the Pi-DAC+ also has a hardware volume control using a rotary encoder, i.e. it is rather like a volume knob. I don't know much about the Pi-DAC+ implementation but it should mean that the hardware volume control just reduces the output amplitude in a similar way to lowering the volume on your amplifier.
However, the Pi-DAC+ does use a 32bit DAC chip so the impact of the digital volume should be much less than if you were using fewer bits (as indicated in the presentation).
Most interesting, and thanks for sharing that. That would certainly seem to explain why, when using the Pi directly into my power amp, with Volumio, I haven't 'missed' the influence of my (rather expensive and highly modified) preamp. Quite simply, in that scenario, ANY preamp or similar device, no matter how well designed, introduced into the replay chain, can only have a negative effect.
It's probably also why that, up until now, I've never enjoyed listening to a system, containing any other components, where the signal isn't being processed by a high-quality active preamp - and crucially, why when listening to my CDP and DAC, the Croft always brings something musically necessary to the listening table. This is thought-provoking stuff! :)
Therefore, if you prefer using the Pi with a preamp, it's likely that your ears are simply enjoying the effect, and/or the electrical match/sonic synergy between the Pi and power amp/partnering system is sub-optimal.
Marco.
Hi Richard,
I've been enjoying this combination but it always caused me some annoyance, having read the white papers from Naim on how the DAC strips the incoming SPDIF signal of clock and provides a completely re-clocked signal thus rendering transport and cables unimportant, and jitter irrelevant, and yet I never found this to be true and the transport and the cable are as important as they ever were.
That's also my view, based on not inconsiderable experience.
However, in terms of how the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC has been designed to function (as outlined by David), the introduction of any 'alien' interface, such as an off-board DAC, and associated connecting cables, is likely to result in a very real and fundamental loss of fidelity.
However, of course, regardless of that, people will still like whatever it is they think sounds good! :)
So reading about the IQAudio DAC has caused me some excitement and I'm going to have to try one. I have to admit that I'm sceptical that I'll find it as enjoyable as the current setup, but I'm fully prepared to be shocked!
If I am indeed blown away then this can only mean one thing - Sell the NAIM and the proceeds will fund my next cartridge...
A most unusual and refreshing attitude, so please keep us posted :cool:
Marco.
Marco, have you tried switching the volume control off in the Volumio GUI and run the Pi+HifiBerry+ through your preamplifier, all Mac and Spotify volume setting at max. ? Not sure I have asked you this one already, btw. if so, sorry to repeat myself. I just can't get my head around the fact that using software volume controls should sound better than your Croft pre. But as David pointed out your DAC has a 32 bit chip so that should be enough to loose some bits :) in the process without degrading the SQ too much.
Ru
14277
Marco, have you tried switching the volume control off in the Volumio GUI and run the Pi+HifiBerry+ through your preamplifier, all Mac and Spotify volume setting at max.
Not sure what you mean, Roops...
The picture on your attachment only shows how to select the Audio Output, in terms of which device is used. In that box, in my case, it shows 'IQaudIODAC', and the Volume Control mixer type below is set to 'Hardware'.
How do I switch the volume control off, to do as you say?
Marco.
yep, where it says "hardware" set it to "disable". Then connect the Pi+DAC to your preamp and set the volume controls on your computer and whatever audio program you are using (Spotify) to their maximum levels. This to avoid any software controls to influence the volume before it gets through the DAC. Volume would then be controlled only by your Croft pre.
But only if its not a hassle :);)
Ok, I haven't tried that. I shall do so after lunch and report back :)
Marco.
Apologies to all if I'm tread crapping but does anyone know of a company or person who supplies a streaming set up like Marcos pre configured and ready to go?
I have no time or talent for building/configuring such things.
Thanks in advance.
bon appétit !
Et je vous en remercie :)
Malheureusement, aujourd'hui, ce n'est pas rien de spécial, seulement du poulet, dans une sauce au citron frais, avec du riz.
À bientôt, mon ami!
Marco.
Apologies to all if I'm tread crapping but does anyone know of a company or person who supplies a streaming set up like Marcos pre configured and ready to go?
I have no time or talent for building/configuring such things.
Thanks in advance.
Sounds like a business opportunity for someone... ;)
Marco.
Sounds like a business opportunity for someone... ;)
Marco.
My own thought.
Wouldn't it be wonderful for busy audiophiles to have someone who could keep one up to date with a twice yearly upgrade/ software update at reasonable cost in this fast paced area.
montesquieu
26-03-2015, 14:06
Doesn't have to be either/or. Raspberry Pi is so cheap that you can get a system together which integrates with your current network (if you have such a thing already set up for other computer related purposes) and sounds great for the price of a crap CD player. I would see it as broadening one's options for experiencing music. There's plenty of bands/musicians/composers out there making their own music and only releasing their stuff via digital download, there are lots of hobbiests making recordings at recitals or making field recordings and putting them on the web for download, there are lots of freebees for experiencing high-rez audio and of course there are many high-rez audio stores which don't provide physical formats - having a FBA player that's easy and cheap just gives you another format player, like you might have a cassette player to hand for the odd thing you come across.
I think it's a nice, neat solution whereas normal PC/laptop permanently set up will just be a bit too over the top for most people and their homes and something like a Mac Mini too expensive.
Philosophically, does listening to the radio cheapen the listening experience? It's not much different other than you didn't even make those few clicks! Someone else even did that for you. One listens to the music and how you then associate with that music is kind of up to you. I find it makes no difference at all - if I love the music then whilst I'm listening to it, I still love it and value it. If it then makes you think of another piece you want to hear then you're not distracted in finding it as might be the case when searching for the physical copy. Just brings a different experience, not better not worse. (I'm only speaking from the point of view of playing stuff from my laptop... don't have any Pi yet).
You do identify my interest in steaming which around the hobbyist area - I have a small collection of Lieder78s but there are many many transciptions out there I'd like to make easier to enjoy.
On radio though I'm not so sure ....the only radio I listen to is R4 (TWATO, PM, The Archers, the Now Show) and R3 (mainly the Early Music Show and occasional broadcast concerts that catch my eye). I found when I had the Touch with Spotify that I occasionally listened to some of the classical music and jazz stations around the world but disliked the wallpaper nature of using music that way. I think I found precisely one exciting new piece of music in that time (a CD by Fishrmans Friend).
Background music generally drives me nuts and (other than when I have my hair cut, where it's unavoidable) I leave or don't enter places that have it (I refuse to use the Co-Op for example because of the piped crap they play in the aisles). The curse of being a musician I guess - you just HAVE to pay attention, your mind is drawn to analyse what you hear, even if it's some far arsed bimbo widdling around her maximum range of four notes, to a backing track programmed by a brainless idiot. People just don't get the psychic damage done by exposure to random shit.
Sounds like a business opportunity for someone... ;)
Marco.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37609-Raspberry-Pi2-IQAudio-Pi-DAC-File-based-audio-player-coming-soon&p=632675#post632675
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37609-Raspberry-Pi2-IQAudio-Pi-DAC-File-based-audio-player-coming-soon&p=632675#post632675
databoy strikes again:lol:
Audio Advent
26-03-2015, 14:43
Background music generally drives me nuts and (other than when I have my hair cut, where it's unavoidable) I leave or don't enter places that have it (I refuse to use the Co-Op for example because of the piped crap they play in the aisles). The curse of being a musician I guess - you just HAVE to pay attention, your mind is drawn to analyse what you hear, even if it's some far arsed bimbo widdling around her maximum range of four notes, to a backing track programmed by a brainless idiot. People just don't get the psychic damage done by exposure to random shit.
I am the same, but less so I imagine, but in the Co-op I find myself stopping under a speaker and pretend to be examining the produce until the tune finishes! They probably think I'm shop lifting.. We obviously have different taste in music though.. think last time I stopped under a co-op speaker it was for a Bjork track. I'm ok with background music but people shouldn't then expect me to give them my full attention and expect to see me shuffle about to find the stereo centre - a group conversation in a pub with music and I end up being alone in company, having lost the thread of the conversation. Radio is rarely background either for me, even if I don't necessarily like the track, I'm still listening to the production and instrumentation.
It would still be music as you choose to play it. Just that it's on a file list and a couple of clicks away. Just the same as having a 78 player to hand. Even if you did have it on a constant play mode, it should still be music you actually like and so you hopefully be surprised by the choice and then enjoy it with your full attention, not knowing what might come next. Continuous, random play is only one option of course, one that's not possible with any other type of system (unless you have a 5 CD midi system or someone's made a mix-tape for you).
A most unusual and refreshing attitude, so please keep us posted :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Marco,
I certainly will do that, although I see that the DAC boards are out of stock until at least the end of April, so I've got a wait :(. I'm very keen to try this though so I'm going to keep checking the website regularly for updates.
One thing I've moved to using along with Volumio recently that may be of interest to those using NAS drives and wanting control over the network is MinimServer which is a very nice, fast and compact piece of streaming software that seems to run on pretty much any platform. I've got it running the server on my Netgear NAS and as it runs a uPnp server I can then run a uPnp client on my phone, tablet, etc to control everything. This only came about because of when the BBC decided to change the way it packages its streams, MinimServer plays nicely with the new streams, so now I get 6Music at 320Kbps pretty solidly and that sounds great, but then I downloaded BubbleuPnp onto my Android phone and liked the speed and interface so I've stuck to using that rather than the Volumio web interface - So Volumio is still the player, but no longer has to deal with the music database side of things. It's all working very nicely.
A good power supply for the Pi certainly makes a difference too. I'm using a decent switcher at the moment, but I think a good linear PSU is on the shopping list.
Et je vous en remercie :)
Malheureusement, aujourd'hui, ce n'est pas rien de spécial, seulement du poulet, dans une sauce au citron frais, avec du riz.
À bientôt, mon ami!
Marco.
Hé Hé, you speaking perfectli frensch my freend !! thad meel yoo hav jus' engolfed wasnt tooo bad at all i hoop ? it look very good on papar ! Im goin to have a schikken curry zis evening. Bi ze way, my auto corrector is going mad
Churz.
Languages are 'my thing'. I can write and speak in French pretty well. I speak a little German and Spanish, and am fluent in Italian, English and Glaswegian, lol! :eyebrows:
Ok, I've just tried what you recommended, and with the Hardware interface disabled, and the volume full up on the Mac and on Volumio, all I can hear is the music very faintly coming out of the speakers, with the volume knob on my preamp turned up to the halfway point.... :scratch:
I've checked over all the connections, and everything is as it should be. Indeed, if I simply disconnect the interconnect leads from the Pi, and plug those ends of the cables instead into my CDP, music comes blaring out of the speakers, as it should! Therefore, clearly there is an issue at the Pi/Volumio end, with the hardware interface disabled.
So, something is wrong somewhere - perhaps Volumio and/or the Pi need to be configured differently, to create a higher output level, when the Hardware setting/interface in Volumio is disabled?
Marco.
I've just connected up the Pi the way it was before (with Hardware enabled), and all is well.
Suggestions, apart from hitting it with a hammer? :)
Marco.
I've decided to hold out for the IQAudio DAC+ for now. The RPi has been ordered and I'll use USB to an external DAC to get me started....should be fun! :)
I've just connected up the Pi the way it was before (with Hardware enabled), and all is well.
Suggestions, apart from hitting it with a hammer? :)
Marco.
:scratch:
Thank's for trying ! I unfortunately don't have the same DAC you have so I cannot test it here. Maybe a kind AoS member who has the same DAC as you have could explain why it doesn't work with those settings.
Ru
Thanks Marco,
I certainly will do that, although I see that the DAC boards are out of stock until at least the end of April, so I've got a wait :(. I'm very keen to try this though so I'm going to keep checking the website regularly for updates.
If you're talking about the IQaudio Pi-DAC+ board there are some re-manufactured boards available, and only black cases (matte or gloss), mine arrived yesterday, drop them an email;
14283
...just waiting for an HDMI to DVI adapter before I boot it up, I'm using the Squeezeplug NOOB software, but I'll still probably need a monitor for initial configuration...should be interesting :)
Rothchild
26-03-2015, 19:23
Page 19 of the manual gives some useful information about the gain structure of the dac:
http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf
The final setting will be a bit dependent on the input sensitivity of what you're plugging in to but it looks like the most sensible starting point is that:
PCM should be set to 86% (no gain, no attenuation)
Playback boost 0dB (0% I think?)
Playback is the interesting one, I think I'd start at 0dB and work the balance between the pi output and where the best bit of gain was on the amp input.
The software player (volumio) should have it's volume set where it's neither boosting or attenuating.
Hi Marc,
Is that post directed at me? If so, I'm sorry, but I really understand any of it. For example, what is PCM and how do you set it to 86%? And what is Playback boost and how do you adjust that? :confused:
A simple step-by-step guide, in layman's terms would be good.
Marco.
:scratch:
Thank's for trying ! I unfortunately don't have the same DAC you have so I cannot test it here. Maybe a kind AoS member who has the same DAC as you have could explain why it doesn't work with those settings.
No problem, Roops. It's not a big deal, as I'm getting a superb sound the way I'm using things, but hopefully I'll get to the bottom of the issue after speaking with a friend tomorrow, who has a similar set-up to me with the Pi :)
Marco.
Rothchild
27-03-2015, 07:26
Hi Marc,
Is that post directed at me? If so, I'm sorry, but I really understand any of it. For example, what is PCM and how do you set it to 86%? And what is Playback boost and how do you adjust that? :confused:
A simple step-by-step guide, in layman's terms would be good.
Marco.
Sorry Marco, yes but I suspect I might have either misunderstood which dac you have? I couldn't see a 'hardware control' (as in an actual physical knob) on the Pidac but the manual (P19 linked previously) shows that there are 3 gain controls available for the hardware in ALSAMixer (how to access and adjust this is described in the manual) one of these (playback) equates to a 'hardware' volume control because it's adjusting the voltage gain of the converter (rather than adding of removing bits):
PCM (which is the playback volume of the software in to the interface) and
'Playback' which appears to adjust the actual voltage gain coming out of the converter (so is useful for gainstaging the input of the next item in the chain)
Given that folk are concerned about 'losing bits' by using digital volume controls the settings I've advocated seek to ensure there is no digital gain or attenuation being applied and to simply use the 'playback' control to adjust the analogue gainstaging so the output of the pi can be appropriately set for the input of the pre/power amp it's connected to.
Hope this helps.
tubehunter
27-03-2015, 08:48
To quote Gordon @iqaudio
"The PCM5122 (as used on the Pi-DAC) can go from -103.5db to 23db. We have limited it to +4db at 100% on Alsa but not sure what other cards will do here - that all makes it very difficult for apps like RuneAudio. "
Therefore I set mine at 95 to stop any digital distortion (clipping) from tracks that are recorded hot, what with loudness wars.
Was that done with mine too, Duncan?
Marco.
Sorry Marco, yes but I suspect I might have either misunderstood which dac you have? I couldn't see a 'hardware control' (as in an actual physical knob) on the Pidac but the manual (P19 linked previously) shows that there are 3 gain controls available for the hardware in ALSAMixer (how to access and adjust this is described in the manual) one of these (playback) equates to a 'hardware' volume control because it's adjusting the voltage gain of the converter (rather than adding of removing bits):
PCM (which is the playback volume of the software in to the interface) and
'Playback' which appears to adjust the actual voltage gain coming out of the converter (so is useful for gainstaging the input of the next item in the chain)
Given that folk are concerned about 'losing bits' by using digital volume controls the settings I've advocated seek to ensure there is no digital gain or attenuation being applied and to simply use the 'playback' control to adjust the analogue gainstaging so the output of the pi can be appropriately set for the input of the pre/power amp it's connected to.
Hope this helps.
Hi Marc,
I understand a little better where you're coming from now, but wouldn't have a clue how to make any adjustments [what is ALSAMixer?] as they all seem to be software related and beyond my comprehension of computer language. Thanks, though :)
Marco.
If you're talking about the IQaudio Pi-DAC+ board there are some re-manufactured boards available, and only black cases (matte or gloss), mine arrived yesterday, drop them an email;
...just waiting for an HDMI to DVI adapter before I boot it up, I'm using the Squeezeplug NOOB software, but I'll still probably need a monitor for initial configuration...should be interesting :)
That's brilliant, thanks for that Will. I sent them an Email having read your comment and they got back to me within the hour to say that not only did they have a couple of the remanufactured boards left, but also that they're based just down the road from me, so I could go and pick one up! How's that for a result?
Well, that's my weekend sorted ;-).
Nice one, Rich. That *is* a result! Let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
Rothchild
27-03-2015, 10:07
, but wouldn't have a clue how to make any adjustments [what is ALSAMixer?]
Marco.
That's why I linked the manual, it's all explained in plain terms there for you ;-)
For those with better maths than me there's a useful page about gain structure and reference levels here: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm which can help get you to some sensible starting points so that you can then home in with your ears on the sweet spot.
No problem, Roops. It's not a big deal, as I'm getting a superb sound the way I'm using things, but hopefully I'll get to the bottom of the issue after speaking with a friend tomorrow, who has a similar set-up to me with the Pi :)
Marco.
:)
I think there is some confusion about the "hardware" word in the documentation. As far as I can see, it means there is a dedicated 32 bit chip on the IQ DAC doing volume attenuation in the digital domain. So, the "hardware" seems to refer to that chip.
But all this is irrelevant really as long as the SQ is satisfying. And I am sure you have plenty of reference points to know it is.
That's brilliant, thanks for that Will. I sent them an Email having read your comment and they got back to me within the hour to say that not only did they have a couple of the remanufactured boards left, but also that they're based just down the road from me, so I could go and pick one up! How's that for a result?
Well, that's my weekend sorted ;-).
Top stuff Rich!
I can thoroughly recommend the IQ case, very well designed, and looks the business, my earlier photo doesn't do it justice :)
Mind you give the build instructions a read first...http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf
It'll save time in the end, it's a question of getting the right spacers onto the main Pi board first time...
Top tip! One side of the case panels is protected by sticky back plastic...and is not 'unprinted' as some idiot might complain...err sorry about that Gordon ;)
Apparently it's a common mistake...I think he was just being polite
P.S. I'm still waiting my HDMI to DVI adaptor to arrive (hopefully today) before I light the blue touch paper...:eyebrows:
That's why I linked the manual, it's all explained in plain terms there for you ;-)
Lol... You may think the information there is explained in 'plain terms', but I'm afraid it's mostly a foreign language to me... When it comes to computers, with me, think along the terms of a 5-year old learning English!! ;)
To do any of the technical stuff outlined in that manual, I would need someone here to explain what it all means first, before I could implement it. Dave (jollyfix) said it best earlier:
...for me its like some one saying " hey fit this to your car, you will get 100 more mile per gallon, it also has auto reverse etc. only thing is to use it you need to strip down gear box .add a turbo move some pipes etc". All fine if you have a bit of mechanical knowledge.
...or in this case, computer terminology knowledge.
Anyway, I do appreciate your help :)
Marco.
Rothchild
27-03-2015, 11:21
Lol... You may think the information there is explained in 'plain terms', but I'm afraid it's mostly a foreign language to me... When it comes to computers, with me, think along the terms of a 5-year old learning English!! ;)
To do any of the technical stuff outlined in that manual, I would need someone here to explain what it all means first, before I could implement it.
Marco.
I'll try to do you an ELI5 (explain it like I'm 5) version later. If you could clarify for me which 'hardware control' you are using on the DAC at the moment (I've been through most of the thread but it's long and diverse!) that will help me understand where you're up to and what you need to do to get the perfect gain structure through the Pi and on in to the rest of your chain.
Top stuff Rich!
I can thoroughly recommend the IQ case, very well designed, and looks the business, my earlier photo doesn't do it justice :)
Mind you give the build instructions a read first...http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf
It'll save time in the end, it's a question of getting the right spacers onto the main Pi board first time...
Top tip! One side of the case panels is protected by sticky back plastic...and is not 'unprinted' as some idiot might complain...err sorry about that Gordon ;)
Apparently it's a common mistake...I think he was just being polite
P.S. I'm still waiting my HDMI to DVI adaptor to arrive (hopefully today) before I light the blue touch paper...:eyebrows:
Thanks for the tips. That case does look ace! A case is a must and it's about time I got a good one. I bodged one when I got the HiFiBerry Digi but it's a bit Heath Robinson.
Getting all excited now ;-)
I used SqueezeLite for a while when I was making the transition from my SBT to using the Pi for streaming duties - I was about to mention how you don't really need to use the HDMI output of the Pi at all for configuration and you can do it all over a web browser, but then I remembered that for the initial configuration of SqueezeLite it's not so easy as I don't think SSH is running by default and you have to enable it first (which is a little bit of an annoyance). I would say though that if you can get away from using the old Logitech way of serving up your music, Volumio definitely sounds better, or at least it does in my system - and then you can configure the whole thing via a web browser without the need for connecting a monitor directly to the Pi.
Hi Marc,
Okies... First of all, in terms of the DAC, I'm using the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+, and controlling it and the Pi 2 (model B) through the Volumio web interface, on a Macbook Pro. This is the section in Volumio (as supplied earlier by Rupert), I'm referring to, in terms of 'Hardware':
14277
What we were trying to do (aside from what you're going to try and explain) was disable the Hardware setting, so that apparently I'd get best sound quality through my Croft preamp, rather than how I'm currently using things, with no preamp, and the Pi plugged directly into my power amp, using Volumio to adjust listening levels.
I did as Rupert suggested, by disabling the above 'Hardware' setting, applying it, and noticed that in doing so it automatically set the playback levels on Volumio to 100%.
I then increased the volume on my Mac to 100%, connected the Pi to my preamp (and preamp to power amp), selected a track from my stored music library, pressed 'Play', on Volumio, then turned the volume knob up on the preamp, and heard.... NOTHING...
I then increased the volume to nearly full on my preamp, and heard the music that should've been playing sounding like a distant transistor radio! To test that there were no problems elsewhere, I simply disconnected the interconnects from the back of the Pi and plugged them into my CDP, hit play, and got BEAUTIFUL SOUNDING MUSIC, as indeed should've happened before with the Pi.
What's going on there, however, I've no idea :scratch:
Marco.
I used SqueezeLite for a while when I was making the transition from my SBT to using the Pi for streaming duties - I was about to mention how you don't really need to use the HDMI output of the Pi at all for configuration and you can do it all over a web browser, but then I remembered that for the initial configuration of SqueezeLite it's not so easy as I don't think SSH is running by default and you have to enable it first (which is a little bit of an annoyance). I would say though that if you can get away from using the old Logitech way of serving up your music, Volumio definitely sounds better, or at least it does in my system - and then you can configure the whole thing via a web browser without the need for connecting a monitor directly to the Pi.
As I'm a heavy SB user (QNAP LMS server & 4 SB clients), my initial experiment is to compare the Pi 2 & Pi-DAC+, to my SBTouch and HiFimeDIY U2 combo in the Kitchen, running into a Mini-1 amp & Mission 780SEs...where the object is low cost (I bought the touch second hand for £80, and the missions for £28), and grease proof!!!
I'm going to try the new SqueezePlug NOOBS distro...
http://www.squeezeplug.eu/
...and as you say the Max2Play web interface may be all I need...assuming all is well, but I've been in IT long enough to know that sh1t happens, and I'll probably need to connect a monitor at some point, so I may as well wait, as the NOOBS distro is a one off self builder :)
Roops,
:)
I think there is some confusion about the "hardware" word in the documentation. As far as I can see, it means there is a dedicated 32 bit chip on the IQ DAC doing volume attenuation in the digital domain. So, the "hardware" seems to refer to that chip.
Not sure what you mean by that. However, in my system, disabling the Volume Control Mixer, in Volumio, simply results in NO VOLUME, rather than better sound quality!! :eyebrows:
But all this is irrelevant really as long as the SQ is satisfying. And I am sure you have plenty of reference points to know it is.
Indeed. However, I would still like to get to the bottom of the problem, so that I can be sure that my preamp isn't going to contribute anything positive, sonically, in this particular application.
Marco.
rectorydp
27-03-2015, 12:01
:)
I think there is some confusion about the "hardware" word in the documentation. As far as I can see, it means there is a dedicated 32 bit chip on the IQ DAC doing volume attenuation in the digital domain. So, the "hardware" seems to refer to that chip.
But all this is irrelevant really as long as the SQ is satisfying. And I am sure you have plenty of reference points to know it is.
I can see the hardware volume control issue is rumbling on and I suspect my previous contribution didn't really help.
I assumed that the hardware volume control was analogue because it is referred to as a significant positive point in much of the documentation.
It seems that the TI chip does offer analogue and digital gain options. See page 62 of the TI PCM512x spec (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5122.pdf). It looks like both options are made available to the ALSA mixer in the IQ DAC but what is referred to as the hardware volume control probably relates to the Digital Volume Control. The analogue gain control appears to only offer 2v or 1V rms output.
The digital volume control on the chip appears to offer +24db to -103dB and that matches up with what is described as the hardware volume option (with some restrictions). The spec doesn't say how the Digital Volume Control is implemented but we should assume that it works as usual and will reduce the number of bits in the signal. However, given that it is a 32bit DAC it is difficult to believe that it would be discernible.
A rotary encoder seems to be an add on option to the IQ DAC but it would appear to operate on the Digital Volume Control. There also seems to be an option for IR control.
Sorry if I caused any confusion.
Rothchild
27-03-2015, 12:01
Hi Marc,
Okies... First of all, in terms of the DAC, I'm using the IQ-Audio Pi-DAC+, and controlling it and the Pi 2 (model B) through the Volumio web interface, on a Macbook Pro. This is the section in Volumio (as supplied earlier by Rupert), I'm referring to, in terms of 'Hardware':
14277
What we were trying to do (aside from what you're going to try and explain) was disable the Hardware setting, so that apparently I'd get best sound quality through my Croft preamp, rather than how I'm currently using things, with no preamp, and the Pi plugged directly into my power amp, using Volumio to adjust listening levels.
I did as Rupert suggested, by disabling the above 'Hardware' setting, applying it, and noticed that in doing so it automatically set the playback levels on Volumio to 100%.
I then increased the volume on my Mac to 100%, connected the Pi to my preamp (and preamp to power amp), selected a track from my stored music library, pressed 'Play', on Volumio, then turned the volume knob up on the preamp, and heard.... NOTHING...
I then increased the volume to nearly full on my preamp, and heard the music that should've been playing sounding like a distant transistor radio! To test that there were no problems elsewhere, I simply disconnected the interconnects from the back of the Pi and plugged them into my CDP, hit play, and got BEAUTIFUL SOUNDING MUSIC, as indeed should've happened before with the Pi.
What's going on there, however, I've no idea :scratch:
Marco.
Great, I'm not as far off track as I feared I might be and this is not insurmountable!
I'll put a guide together for you later tonight / over the weekend.
Just to check, will you be happy to use the volume on your croft rather than anything on the computer? (Imo this is would be the best sonic solution).
Rothchild
27-03-2015, 12:10
I can see the hardware volume control issue is rumbling on and I suspect my previous contribution didn't really help.
I assumed that the hardware volume control was analogue because it is referred to as a significant positive point in much of the documentation.
It seems that the TI chip does offer analogue and digital gain options. See page 62 of the TI PCM512x spec (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5122.pdf). It looks like both options are made available to the ALSA mixer in the IQ DAC but what is referred to as the hardware volume control probably relates to the Digital Volume Control. The analogue gain control appears to only offer 2v or 1V rms output.
The digital volume control on the chip appears to offer +24db to -103dB and that matches up with what is described as the hardware volume option (with some restrictions). The spec doesn't say how the Digital Volume Control is implemented but we should assume that it works as usual and will reduce the number of bits in the signal. However, given that it is a 32bit DAC it is difficult to believe that it would be discernible.
A rotary encoder seems to be an add on option to the IQ DAC but it would appear to operate on the Digital Volume Control. There also seems to be an option for IR control.
Sorry if I caused any confusion.
This is similar to my interpretation, in ALSAMixer 'PCM' is the digital playback level in to the d/a and 'Playback' is the voltage gain of the analogue out from the da chip (as you say, variable from 1vrms (just over normal 'line level') up to 2vrms (closer to 'pro' levels normally used in balanced studio gear)).
My guess would be that in volumio 'software' means Volumio digitally attenuates the signal before passing it to ALSA mixer (so the input to 'PCM' would be lower) 'Hardware' probably connects the volumio control to 'PCM' in ALSA mixer (so there's just one digital gain stage) and 'off' maybe just disables the 'PCM' volume control leaving just the output gain adjustable.
IMO all digital playback should be neither gained nor attenuated and the 'Playback' volume should be used to adjust the drive/'heat' of the signal in to the preamp.
Has anyone tried running the Pi & DAC+ combo from a battery...?
I was thinking of one of these...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GSLRKJO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
...anybody with any such experience? :)
Yup, as that's what I'm keen to try (at its best), as I already know how good things sound without the preamp, using Volumio.
If you do it in the form of a simple step-by-step guide, in terms of 'go to X, click on Y, and do Z', so that I'm simply following your instructions 'parrot fashion', with no need to 'decipher' tech-speak, then that would be much appreciated! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Hi David,
I can see the hardware volume control issue is rumbling on and I suspect my previous contribution didn't really help.
I assumed that the hardware volume control was analogue because it is referred to as a significant positive point in much of the documentation.
It seems that the TI chip does offer analogue and digital gain options. See page 62 of the TI PCM512x spec (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5122.pdf). It looks like both options are made available to the ALSA mixer in the IQ DAC but what is referred to as the hardware volume control probably relates to the Digital Volume Control. The analogue gain control appears to only offer 2v or 1V rms output.
The digital volume control on the chip appears to offer +24db to -103dB and that matches up with what is described as the hardware volume option (with some restrictions). The spec doesn't say how the Digital Volume Control is implemented but we should assume that it works as usual and will reduce the number of bits in the signal. However, given that it is a 32bit DAC it is difficult to believe that it would be discernible.
A rotary encoder seems to be an add on option to the IQ DAC but it would appear to operate on the Digital Volume Control. There also seems to be an option for IR control.
Sorry if I caused any confusion.
Since you're obviously knowledgeable in these matters and reasonably local (I'm in Wrexham), if you were willing, at your convenience, to pop round here and have a look at things for me (as well as have a music sesh), I'd be more than willing to pay your fuel costs and provide a hot meal and drinks!
I don't even mind coming to collect you, or meeting you halfway at a train station if that suits better :cool:
Marco.
Has anyone tried running the Pi & DAC+ combo from a battery...?
I was thinking of one of these...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GSLRKJO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
...anybody with any such experience? :)
I am running my Pi+DAC combo with a standard 5v/2a power pack (smaller than the one in your link). I guess the important thing is that it can charge/discharge at the same time so that the battery is always 100% charged. Apparently, if the battery is lower than 100% it can affect SQ.
14292
I can see the hardware volume control issue is rumbling on and I suspect my previous contribution didn't really help.
I assumed that the hardware volume control was analogue because it is referred to as a significant positive point in much of the documentation.
It seems that the TI chip does offer analogue and digital gain options. See page 62 of the TI PCM512x spec (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5122.pdf). It looks like both options are made available to the ALSA mixer in the IQ DAC but what is referred to as the hardware volume control probably relates to the Digital Volume Control. The analogue gain control appears to only offer 2v or 1V rms output.
The digital volume control on the chip appears to offer +24db to -103dB and that matches up with what is described as the hardware volume option (with some restrictions). The spec doesn't say how the Digital Volume Control is implemented but we should assume that it works as usual and will reduce the number of bits in the signal. However, given that it is a 32bit DAC it is difficult to believe that it would be discernible.
A rotary encoder seems to be an add on option to the IQ DAC but it would appear to operate on the Digital Volume Control. There also seems to be an option for IR control.
Sorry if I caused any confusion.
Thank's for the info. That was my (undocumented) feeling as well :)
Has anyone tried running the Pi & DAC+ combo from a battery...?
I was thinking of one of these...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00GSLRKJO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00
...anybody with any such experience? :)
I have, and with a battery very much like that one. It works very well and is a step up sonically from any cheap 5V wall-wart that delivers upwards of 1A. But I've had some more success with some better quality PSUs that I've found lying around. Currently I'm using the one out of a chunky old external CD-ROM drive caddy that I no longer use (just not using the 12V output) and that is a step up from the Anker battery in terms of sounding more solid and punchy. I'm aiming for a good linear supply eventually but a few other things to play with before then ;-).
Roops,
Have you got no idea then why, when using my preamp, I'm getting proper sound levels through, when the Volume Control Mixer (on Volumio) is set at 'Hardware', but not when it's disabled?
I've heard my preamp, with the Pi, on a number of occasions with 'Hardware' enabled, and it sounds great, but not as good as it does with the preamp out of the equation, so if I can obtain the same proper sound levels by disabling 'Hardware', and using my preamp, then according to you, that should sound best of all.
I'm still a little scpetical, though, even if I get that to work, that it'll provide a significant enough sonic improvement to change my mind on my using my preamp in this particular application. From earlier on the thread, where it was explained (I forget now by whom), it seems that there are valid design reasons why Pi/DAC sounds best used 'au naturel', as it were :)
Marco.
I'm aiming for a good linear supply eventually but a few other things to play with before then ;-).
there are some nice looking ones on the eBay, maybe like this one ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hifi-linear-power-25W-12V-2A-DAC-external-power-supply-with-digital-display-PSU-/141600717096?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f80f7928
Roops,
Have you got no idea then why, when using my preamp, I'm getting proper sound levels through, when the Volume Control Mixer (on Volumio) is set at 'Hardware', but not when it's disabled?
I've heard my preamp, with the Pi, on a number of occasions with 'Hardware' enabled, and it sounds great, but not as good as it does with the preamp out of the equation, so if I can obtain the same proper sound levels by disabling 'Hardware', and using my preamp, then according to you, that should sound best of all.
I'm still a little scpetical, though, even if I get that to work, that it'll provide a significant enough sonic improvement to change my mind on my using my preamp in this particular application. From earlier on the thread, where it was explained (I forget now by whom), it seems that there are valid design reasons why Pi/DAC sounds best used 'au naturel', as it were :)
Marco.
Yes, it seems that is the way the IQ DAC sounds best. Mine (Sabre DAC implementation) sounds best when Mac / Spotify volumes are a 100% and I use the Volume knob on my amp or just a passive LDR or ALPS based pre. I may just get an IQ DAC for the fun of it to be able to compare..
I have, and with a battery very much like that one. It works very well and is a step up sonically from any cheap 5V wall-wart that delivers upwards of 1A. But I've had some more success with some better quality PSUs that I've found lying around. Currently I'm using the one out of a chunky old external CD-ROM drive caddy that I no longer use (just not using the 12V output) and that is a step up from the Anker battery in terms of sounding more solid and punchy. I'm aiming for a good linear supply eventually but a few other things to play with before then ;-).
Cheers Rich, and Rupert :)
I have the Anker to hand, so I should be fine... :)
Yes, it seems that is the way the IQ DAC sounds best. Mine (Sabre DAC implementation) sounds best when Mac / Spotify volumes are a 100% and I use the Volume knob on my amp or just a passive LDR or ALPS based pre. I may just get an IQ DAC for the fun of it to be able to compare..
Cool... It'll be interesting to know what you think of the IQ-Audio DAC when you compare it with what you have :)
So do you know why I'm getting no volume (with my preamp in the equation) when I disable the 'Hardware' setting in Volumio? Is it because what you were telling me to do before doesn't work with the IQ-Audio DAC?
Marco.
there are some nice looking ones on the eBay, maybe like this one ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hifi-linear-power-25W-12V-2A-DAC-external-power-supply-with-digital-display-PSU-/141600717096?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f80f7928
I'd be very careful using any 'off the shelf' linear PSU unless you know *exactly* what the Pi's electrical requirements are, not only in terms of getting it to function, but in achieving a worthwhile improvement over the supplied SMPS unit.
As I reported earlier, our resident PSU expert (Paul Hynes) is currently designing such a linear PSU for me, for the Pi, and have been exchanging some dialogue with him on the matter. As a point of note, for those interested and able to understand what he's written, this is some of what he had to say on the subject:
The Pi boards I have here both have three low cost regulator chips for power distribution. It should be possible to replace these with my high performance regulators once I have the set-up running.
Then after looking at the circuit of latest Pi model, he said this:
The latest Pi has a completely different on board regulation system to the ones I have here using switch mode voltage regulation to provide the lower voltage rails. I will have to do some investigation with this, as I have no clue how much current is required for each rail. The current rating of the regulators will dictate the physical requirements of this upgrade so I have a little R&D to do to deal with this solution. Also the high speed shunt regulators I use for digital circuitry cannot regulate down to 1.8v for one of the rails so I will have to develop a circuit that can provide the 1.8v at the required performance level.
He has since bought the latest Pi and an IQ-Audio DAC+, in order to facilitate his experiments, so I am awaiting the results of what he comes up with.
The conclusion I reached from what he wrote, however, is that if you want to do the job right, and obtain optimal results (which is all I'd ever be interested in), you *must* have an intrinsic understanding of what makes the Pi (and IQ-Audio DAC) 'tick', so to speak, and simply buying an 'off the shelf' linear PSU from ebay is unlikely to produce the desired effect.
Marco.
Have you got no idea then why, when using my preamp, I'm getting proper sound levels through, when the Volume Control Mixer (on Volumio) is set at 'Hardware', but not when it's disabled?
I've heard my preamp, with the Pi, on a number of occasions with 'Hardware' enabled, and it sounds great, but not as good as it does with the preamp out of the equation, so if I can obtain the same proper sound levels by disabling 'Hardware', and using my preamp, then according to you, that should sound best of all.
Not a Pi user but having read the Qaudio PDF and based on experience of a raft of 'digital' an 'analogue' preamp stages I would guess that the reason is pretty straight forward. The Pi has it's own amp stage to provide a signal to the output. Either through a chip or the optional 'physical' rotary control outlined. If you use either of these 'hardware' options from the Pi input to a preamp (rather than direct) you are applying preamplification twice - with the resultant degradation. If you disable the Pi 'hardware' amp you are effectively cutting out the signal and will get nowt (or a very weak signal) to your preamp - which is what you experienced. Strikes me that if you want to get around this you would need to pick up the signal from pins on the board BEFORE it is delivered to the Pi 'hardware' section. Failing this, what you were doing before was fine - i.e using the amplified output from the Pi 'hardware' amp directly to your power amp.
Very similar to using Stan's early DACS where you had the option of using the onboard OPamps outputs or modifying them to pick up the signal directly from the DAC chip
Hi Mike,
Not a Pi user but having read the Qaudio and based on experience of a raft 'digital' an 'analogue' preamp stages I would guess that the reason is pretty straight forward.
The Pi has it's own amp stage to provide a signal to the output. Either through a chip or the optional 'physical' rotary control outlined. If you use either of these 'hardware' options from the Pi input to a preamp (rather than direct) you are applying preamplification twice - with the resultant degradation. If you disable the Pi 'hardware' amp you are effectively cutting out the signal and will get nowt (or a very weak signal) to your preamp - which is what you experienced.
At last - NOW we're actually getting somewhere. That's exactly the explanation I needed!! :)
At least I know now that I wasn't doing anything daft.... What's also interesting, from what you've stated, is the resultant sonic degradation of applying pre-amplification twice, which is proof positive that the Pi/DAC unquestionably performs best without the use of an active preamp, and with sound levels controlled instead, by a digital interface, such as Volumio - which is exactly what I've been doing all along.
Shows I'm not deaf then, so thanks for that! ;)
Marco.
tubehunter
27-03-2015, 14:37
No Marco you use the Hardware option and control the volume (in the digital domain) via the web page.
I have the volume option set @95% (should be around = 0dB in the Dac) then disabled and control the volume via a Alps Black pot.
This is then connected to my Quad power amps.
I do it this way as I have need of another input which requires attenuation.
An example of the Pi digitally clipping is Otis Tayor's new album Hey Joe Opus Red Meat.
Track 06 - They Wore Blue, about half way through the sax on the right channel will distort if the Pi's volume is set at 100% ( = +4dB in Dac )
Sounds Ok set at 95%
I have built my Pi into a nice Aluminium case with a linear power supply with an encapsulated transformer double regulated.
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/dac_zpsiia9lzlg.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/dac_zpsiia9lzlg.jpg.html)
I should also point out at this stage that the whole reason why I'm championing the Pi from the rooftops, as it were, is not because it is the simplest 'plug & play' FBA solution on the market (it isn't that at all), but rather because it ably fulfils the AoS 'SPPV mantra', i.e. it provides astonishing levels of 'bang for your buck', and is a veritable 'giant-killer' right now on the computer audio front.
*That* is why I have been rather 'verbose' on this subject!
I consider it my duty to inform AoS members of such products, so that they too can reap the same musical enjoyment from using this device as me. Informing each other of superb products, and discussing them in detail TOGETHER, and helping each other out along the way with any problems that occur, is exactly what a good hi-fi forum and audio community is for.
I am also determined to remove the 'mystique', attached to FBA, done well and cheaply, and to try and open it up to a much wider audience: folk who are music lovers, not necassarily 'computer geeks', and if we amass enough users of Pi, on AoS, we will create a dedicated section of the forum for members to discuss it, as we have done with the Beresford DAC and Technics T/T.
Crucially, that is where we will then be able to LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, through obtaining practical knowledge from the sharing of our combined experiences of using the Pi, expressed in layman's terms (as opposed from having to decipher and utilise the 'tech-speak' of those with in-depth knowledge of computer software/terminology and an interest in such), so that's why this thread has been specifically designed to attract as many people into the 'Pi fold', as it were, as possible.
Therefore, if you are reasonably technically proficient and have some relevant computer software knowledge, and/or know a friend who can help that does, and don't want to spend a fortune on an 'audiophile badged FBA product', which simply looks nicer but will unlikely produce superior sonic results, then the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC, for me, is the way to go.
Quite simply, it DESERVES to be shouted about, because it is *that* good!!
Hopefully that clear matters up, in that respect :cool:
Marco.
Hi Dunc,
No Marco you use the Hardware option and control the volume (in the digital domain) via the web page.
I have the volume option set @95% (should be around = 0dB in the Dac) then disabled and control the volume via a Alps Black pot.
This is then connected to my Quad power amps.
I do it this way as I have need of another input which requires attenuation.
I get exactly where you're coming from and why that doesn't really apply so much in my system.
Have you tried using the Pi, the same as me, minus the Alps pot, by just using Volumio on its own. If so, was it worse? Do you think there would be mileage in me using a similar passive pot, simply when I want to use the Pi? I'm not fussed on having the convenience of using Volumio to control sound levels if a passive pot would sound better.
I have built my Pi into a nice Aluminium case with a linear power supply with an encapsulated transformer double regulated.
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/dac_zpsiia9lzlg.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/dac_zpsiia9lzlg.jpg.html)
Nice one, mate. Showz da shexy case! :eyebrows:
What sonic improvements did you perceive with the addition of your linear PSU? Oh, and has Ian got one yet? ;)
Marco.
So do you know why I'm getting no volume (with my preamp in the equation) when I disable the 'Hardware' setting in Volumio? Is it because what you were telling me to do before doesn't work with the IQ-Audio DAC?
Marco.
no, sorry. I don't. It's a mystery to me at the moment. Probably, by "disabling" the mixer setting in Volumio, it cut's out an essential part that the IQ DAC needs to work. But I'm just guessing.
I have built my Pi into a nice Aluminium case with a linear power supply with an encapsulated transformer double regulated.
Yes ! Please show us some pics :) my PiDAC is still "hung" from its Ethernet cable :stalks:.
no, sorry. I don't. It's a mystery to me at the moment. Probably, by "disabling" the mixer setting in Volumio, it cut's out an essential part that the IQ DAC needs to work. But I'm just guessing.
See post #442. Mike explains all! ;)
Marco.
no, sorry. I don't. It's a mystery to me at the moment. Probably, by "disabling" the mixer setting in Volumio, it cut's out an essential part that the IQ DAC needs to work. But I'm just guessing.
Under the hood Volumio is using MPD (Music Player Daemon - http://www.musicpd.org/). MPD interacts with ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page), and its ALSA that interacts with the IQaudio DAC.
Volumio is designed to be a self-contained system with a web interface for user interaction. Trying to configure the system via the command line can break things as volumio stores settings in an internal database. But you can connect to your RPi in a way that allows you to use the command line and inspect how ALSA is working with the DAC and without breaking Volumio.
Page 25 of http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf shows how "alsamixer" can be used to check things.
When you make configuration changes to Volumio which effect MPD, such as changing the mixer settings, you need to restart MPD for these changes to come into effect. Again, it's possible to examine the relevant MPD configuration file via the command line to see how various Voumio settings alter settings in the underlying MPD configuaration file. The relevant part looks something like this:
audio_output {
type "alsa"
name "Output"
device "hw:0,0"
mixer_control "PCM"
mixer_device "hw:0"
mixer_index "0"
dop "no"
}
I would expect that mixer control line will change as you change settings in MPD.
I thought the IQaudio DAC is connected via i2s, does Mike's #442 comment still apply? I suspect it's just a case of using the wrong mixer control setting in MPD which results in no audio.
Could be, Chris. Either way, I wasn't getting much sound out. If the 'correct' mixer control can be found, then I'd be happy to use it instead, providing that I know how! ;)
In any case, I'm pretty convinced now that the Pi/DAC sounds best, controlled via a digital web interface, without the use of an active preamp. Quite simply, in the latter scenario, if pre-amplification of the signal is occurring twice, then that is not a good idea.
What I may experiment with, if Duncan confirms that there are potential sonic gains to be had [not least of which is perhaps removing any claimed signal degradation created by using a digital volume interface, and the subsequent loss of bit resolution], is having a passive pot instead, for adjusting sound levels, purely when using the Pi. It need only be a small and simple box.
Personally, I think there's some mileage in that, especially as convenience is a non-issue for me, if the by-product of that is a loss in fidelity, no matter how small.
Marco.
tubehunter
27-03-2015, 17:38
I have never liked digital control of volume, 0dB from dac gives the best signal to noise. imo
Not to mention loss of resolution.
Have you noticed that pop when you select a new track? when listening at low levels.
Some pictures of my PiPre
I used an old PS Audio case I had knocking about not pretty but functional.
On the front panel you have Volume, Selector Switch and a Pi Reset button (handy) with Led showing power to the Pi.
Rear has an Analogue in, Pi Usb and Ethernet inputs, Output and Mains switch and fuse.
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/IMG_8319_zpsad1dywok.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/IMG_8319_zpsad1dywok.jpg.html)
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/IMG_8320_zpseqirj2eq.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/IMG_8320_zpseqirj2eq.jpg.html)
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/IMG_8322_zpse2duawyn.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/IMG_8322_zpse2duawyn.jpg.html)
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/IMG_8323_zpsbbczof3u.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/IMG_8323_zpsbbczof3u.jpg.html)
What I may experiment with, if Duncan confirms that there are potential sonic gains to be had [not least of which is perhaps removing any claimed signal degradation created by using digital volume interface, and the subsequent loss of bit resolution], is employing the use of a passive pot instead, for adjusting sound levels, purely when using the Pi. It need only be a small and simple box.
Personally, I think there's some mileage in that, especially as convenience is a non-issue for me, if the by-product of that is a loss in fidelity.
Marco.
My personal choice would be a passive pre - a simple 10k Alps (wired as a voltage divider) is what I've used between various DACs and my Quad 303 and this always worked sonically as the best and gives perfect volume control :)
Having now looked at the data sheet for the Texas Instruments DAC used by Qaudio my previous post was on the right track but possibly for the wrong reasons. Amplification of the analogue signal occurs via hardware internal to the DAC chip and inherent to its operation so doubt there is any way way to pick up that signal other than where's it's output to the RCAs. My inclination would be setting the 'digital' and 'hardware' sliders to 100% and using the passive to tame the 2v output for the power stage. If any clipping does occur then start by reducing the 'hardware' amplification until you reach the sweet spot.(as I think this has already been said) I have an aversion to any and all software volume controls as I've found they inevitably change the sound adversely.
The Pi-pre is looking good!
I have never liked digital control of volume, 0dB from dac gives the best signal to noise. imo
Not to mention loss of resolution.
Have you noticed that pop when you select a new track? when listening at low levels.
Yes, that was happening when you were here, too. It doesn't overly bother me, as it's very low-level, but would be better if it was gone.
I don't think we were hearing too much 'loss of resolution' (using Volumio and the Pi direct into a power amp) when, along with Ian at my place, we were sitting there wetting our pants at how good it sounded (either with your modded Quad 405s or the Copper amp in the equation)!!
:gig: :D ;)
But yes, I take your point. So how about building me a little passive volume pot, to use solely with the Pi, which I can simply connect up when I want to use it?
Marco.
My personal choice would be a passive pre - a simple 10k Alps (wired as a voltage divider) is what I've used between various DACs and my Quad 303 and this always worked sonically as the best and gives perfect volume control :)
Yeah, but I wouldn't want anything too complicated or expensive, as it won't be replacing my Croft. Essentially, all I need is something simple that replaces the role of Volumio, in terms of adjusting sound levels from the Pi, and achieves that with maximum resolution and minimal influence on the music signal.
Marco.
Yeah, but I wouldn't want anything too complicated or expensive,Marco.
I can't do either complicated or expensive - I have neither the brains nor the wallet :lol:
I have two passive pres costing about £20 each to build (including case) and both are just wire, connectors and a pot and about 30 minutes to put them together The circuit couldn't be less complicated ;)
(EDIT: just noticed that I use the same basic circuit Duncan used in the pic above)
Ali Tait
27-03-2015, 19:34
"
My personal choice would be a passive pre - a simple 10k Alps (wired as a voltage divider) is what I've used between various DACs and my Quad 303 and this always worked sonically as the best and gives perfect volume control :)
Having now looked at the data sheet for the Texas Instruments DAC used by Qaudio my previous post was on the right track but possibly for the wrong reasons. Amplification of the analogue signal occurs via hardware internal to the DAC chip and inherent to its operation so doubt there is any way way to pick up that signal other than where's it's output to the RCAs. My inclination would be setting the 'digital' and 'hardware' sliders to 100% and using the passive to tame the 2v output for the power stage. If any clipping does occur then start by reducing the 'hardware' amplification until you reach the sweet spot.(as I think this has already been said) I have an aversion to any and all software volume controls as I've found they inevitably change the sound adversely.
Much better pots around than Alps IMHO, for the same or not much more.
"Much better pots around than Alps IMHO, for the same or not much more.
Cool - any brands in particular?
Ali Tait
27-03-2015, 22:26
TOCOS are very good I've found-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/tocos-cosmos-rv24-stereo-potentiometer-p-9217.html
TOCOS are very good I've found-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/tocos-cosmos-rv24-stereo-potentiometer-p-9217.html
Thanks for the tip - bit pricier than the Alps but might give one a whirl when they have the 10k back in stock ....
Ali Tait
27-03-2015, 23:30
Not sure they will, think they are being phased out. 20k would be fine I'd have thought.
rectorydp
27-03-2015, 23:42
Hi David,
Since you're obviously knowledgeable in these matters and reasonably local (I'm in Wrexham), if you were willing, at your convenience, to pop round here and have a look at things for me (as well as have a music sesh), I'd be more than willing to pay your fuel costs and provide a hot meal and drinks!
I don't even mind coming to collect you, or meeting you halfway at a train station if that suits better :cool:
Marco.
I think it might be worth experimenting with the analogue volume to lower the output to 1v rms max. If you do that then you would be able to reduce the digital attenuation. According to the IQaudIO documentation, the analogue volume is the Playback volume control. It is mentioned on page 20 (http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf). The main volume control should be at ~86% for 0dB i.e. no digital domain attenuation. If you use a passive pre then that is where you would want to set the digital volume control as indicated by Duncan (you would probably set the analogue volume at max in that situation). I note that Duncan says that he sets the volume at maximum before disabling. If you didn't do that then it could be why your attempt encountered the problems that it did.
It would be interesting to try a passive pre to see whether it was better or worse. However, I don't really think that digital attenuation should be a big issue here. If the TI chip is using the full 32 bits when controlling the volume then it really won't have an impact on the signal at listening volumes because it has so many bits spare.
Thanks for the invitation to Marco Towers. TBH I think you will probably have sorted this out by the time I would be able to pop up to see you. There are certainly lots of suggestions from the forum!
Well, it's in, it's built and it's up and running. I also got to meet Gordon at IQ Audio earlier too and what an absolute gent and incredibly enthusiastic bloke he is.
I don't want to say much at the moment as I like to have at least a few days to listen to form a proper conclusion and not let the initial expectation bias/enthusiasm cloud my judgement, but let's just say that new cartridge may well have just got a step closer ;-).
Hi David,
I think it might be worth experimenting with the analogue volume to lower the output to 1v rms max. If you do that then you would be able to reduce the digital attenuation.
If that's considered a good idea, it would definitely be one for Duncan to implement, as I wouldn't know how.
According to the IQaudIO documentation, the analogue volume is the Playback volume control. It is mentioned on page 20 (http://www.iqaudio.com/downloads/IQaudIO.pdf). The main volume control should be at ~86% for 0dB i.e. no digital domain attenuation. If you use a passive pre then that is where you would want to set the digital volume control as indicated by Duncan (you would probably set the analogue volume at max in that situation).
Yup, I get that, thanks. However, the idea now may be to go with a 'Pi pre', such as Duncan showed a picture of earlier, as I think that would produce the best results.
I note that Duncan says that he sets the volume at maximum before disabling. If you didn't do that then it could be why your attempt encountered the problems that it did.
Yes, having spoken with a friend earlier about this, who also has a Pi and an active valve preamp, I think you're probably right, so will give that another go.
It would be interesting to try a passive pre to see whether it was better or worse. However, I don't really think that digital attenuation should be a big issue here. If the TI chip is using the full 32 bits when controlling the volume then it really won't have an impact on the signal at listening volumes because it has so many bits spare.
Yup, that's certainly what's happening here, as I can detect no sonic degradation whatsoever, as a result of using the Volumio digital interface to control sound levels.
In that respect, I could simply leave things as they are. However, being a perfectionist and someone who will always try to eke out the final few percent of performance from my kit, I'll be investigating some other options, as outlined, just to see if those are any better! :)
Thanks for the invitation to Marco Towers. TBH I think you will probably have sorted this out by the time I would be able to pop up to see you. There are certainly lots of suggestions from the forum!
Indeed. However, you'd be welcome here anytime. We also go down to Shrewsbury at least once a month to do some shopping and buy wine in Tanners, so perhaps we could hook up next time I'm in your area? :cool:
Marco.
Well, it's in, it's built and it's up and running. I also got to meet Gordon at IQ Audio earlier too and what an absolute gent and incredibly enthusiastic bloke he is.
Excellent news, mate. You should ask Gordon to join AoS, as i think he's currently posting on pfm. I'm sure he'd be delighted that his products are receiving such high praise here, too.
I don't want to say much at the moment as I like to have at least a few days to listen to form a proper conclusion and not let the initial expectation bias/enthusiasm cloud my judgement, but let's just say that new cartridge may well have just got a step closer ;-).
Cool, although I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the cartridge.... :scratch:
Marco.
Cool, although I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the cartridge.... :scratch:
Marco.
Sorry, that might have been a bit vague - What I meant was that I'm enjoying the new DAC so much that the Naim DAC could be in serious danger of being sold on, which means I'll have the funds for a cartridge upgrade ;-).
Got up early for a bit more listening this morning, that's how addictive this is. A few observations to start:
Here's how things are set up:
Pi 2 running Volumio with MinimServer on my NAS being controlled with BubbleUpnp from my phone/tablet - this is working REALLY well.
Currently I have the mixer in Volumio disabled so I'm going straight into my Dynavector L300 pre at 100% volume - Well, actually I've turned it down to 90 as I was getting some distortion at 100% so I'll have another look at that later. One thing I noticed, and I guess this is the same trouble you've had Marco - is that when you disable the mixer, that seems to lock the volume at whatever it was set to last. The fresh Volumio install set the voume somewhere around 54% which is probably wise to avoid anyone blowing their speakers if they're going straight into a power amp, but I expected that disabling the mixer would have locked it to 100% volume without having to do anything else, but it looks as if you have to manually set the volume to the level you want it to be locked at first.
What am I getting from it sonically?
The first thing that hits me is instrument tone and separation. You can ALWAYS follow any instrument in the mix no matter how busy it is and instrument timbre is just amazing. Listening to 'Easy pickings' by This is the Kit, the song starts off with a banjo, then the vocals arrive. What I always found with the Naim was that when the vocals came in, the banjo receded and sounded as if it was just being strummed and the notes became flat, as if the frets were just being muted, but now the banjo remains solidly in the mix and can be followed and the notes, the tones of the picking and the strings is all there.
It cuts through the BS and just gets you to the music, which can be both a good and a bad thing depending on the recording. Where as my Naim tends to sugar coat and polish everything, where everything is 'nice', an enjoyable listen. The iqaudio just seems to hand you whatever is in the stream - so bad recordings will still be bad, but good recordings will shine in a way the Naim won't reveal. That said, even with the bad recordings, this DAC seems to be pulling everything out, so you find that you're never really getting distracted or focusing on the bad bits, but because the whole picture is being presented to you, there's always something interesting going on. Time will tell whether I start to shy away from the poorly recorded stuff. I have a feeling I won't because this isn't what I would call a 'warts and all' presentation, merely a clean window into the recording - What I have a feeling I may start doing more of is hunting down the better masterings of a lot of recordings I have.
Rothchild
28-03-2015, 08:48
Interesting blog post here: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/11/12/raspberry-pi-version-b/
+ a few more clues about how the gain structure of some of these dacs is put together.
Reading the manual and the previous threads pays! :doh: 86% for 0dB output! Now I'm cooking on gas!
I've been sifting through some of Gordon's posts (he is the iqaudio designer) over at www.volumio.org .. maybe the below quote is an additional clue .. in any event, this board is getting a lot of praise ref. SQ :)
The IQaudio Pi-DAC+ and older Pi-DAC use the PCM5122 dac which has built in hw volume control.
usage of this feature requires i2c commands to be sent to the dac to adjust the volume.
This can be done using direct i2c commands or via ALSA function calls. Also code for the IQaudio DAC for Rotary encoder is available on www.github.com/iqaudio/tools (http://www.github.com/iqaudio/tools)
Very best regards,
Gordon
Hi Richard,
Sorry, that might have been a bit vague - What I meant was that I'm enjoying the new DAC so much that the Naim DAC could be in serious danger of being sold on, which means I'll have the funds for a cartridge upgrade ;-).
Ah, gotcha now. Nice one :)
One thing I noticed, and I guess this is the same trouble you've had Marco - is that when you disable the mixer, that seems to lock the volume at whatever it was set to last. The fresh Volumio install set the voume somewhere around 54% which is probably wise to avoid anyone blowing their speakers if they're going straight into a power amp, but I expected that disabling the mixer would have locked it to 100% volume without having to do anything else, but it looks as if you have to manually set the volume to the level you want it to be locked at first.
Yeah, that's exactly the case (as a friend with a Pi/IQ-Audio DAC has confirmed it), although I haven't tried it yet. Therefore, it looks like what Mike said earlier was wrong...
That said, even with the bad recordings, this DAC seems to be pulling everything out, so you find that you're never really getting distracted or focusing on the bad bits, but because the whole picture is being presented to you, there's always something interesting going on. Time will tell whether I start to shy away from the poorly recorded stuff. I have a feeling I won't because this isn't what I would call a 'warts and all' presentation, merely a clean window into the recording
Yup, the honest, 'open window' style of its presentation, coupled with its inherent musicality (as you say, making all styles of music and recordings interesting to listen to in their own right) is precisely what I like about the Pi/IQ-Audio combo.
There's also no 'glare' or 'edge' to the sound, such is normally the case when one listens to digitally reproduced music, but neither is it even remotely 'rounded off', so leading edges have all the requisite attack, in order to preserve the full quota of the music's fundamental 'excitement', thus encouraging long listening sessions into the small hours of the morning!
I think you're experiencing a similar thing... :eyebrows:
Interesting that the Pi/IQ0Audio DAC is outperforming your considerably more expensive Naim. I'm not surprised though, as this little thing is undoubtedly capable of outperforming many much more expensive DACs and 'audiophile-badged' FBA sources.
It is, quite frankly, ridiculously good for the money - or indeed many multiples of money more than it. As such, more folk really do need to jump on and enjoy the ride aboard the Pi bus!!
Marco.
"There's also no 'glare' or 'edge' to the sound, such is normally the case when one listens to digitally reproduced music, but neither is it even remotely 'rounded off', so leading edges have all the requisite attack, in order to preserve the full quota of the music's fundamental 'excitement', thus encouraging long listening sessions into the small hours of the morning!"
Thats what you generally get with ripped CD via FBA system. Sounds much more pleasant:)
I do agree, Jim. However, the effect is more fundamental and unique to this particular combination, which I suspect is mostly down to the design and technical/sonic accomplishments of the IQ-Audio DAC.
Sonically and musically, it really is a very special piece of kit, at a (frankly) bonkers low-price.... :eek:
Marco.
Thats what you generally get with ripped CD via FBA system. Sounds much more pleasant :)
Yup, spot on James - people who dismiss it because it's digital are missing out, it sounds nothing like a normal CDP.
I did a bit of digging, so here goes with a non too technical explanation of what makes this thing tick.
The audio is handled by an i2s serial bus (data transfer method), this only handles audio and is not busy handling lots of other traffic. Most systems use i2s but hand the audio over to the USB bus for output. The USB bus also handles traffic from other devices running at the same time, so I think you can see the benefit of using the cleaner path by using only i2s.
i2s usually shunts audio data around from chip to chip on the PCB and USB is more about shunting data from device to device, that would be the simplest way of looking at it.
To take best advantage of the Rpi system you need to use the piggy backed DAC that plugs directly into the i2s bus. If you use an external DAC connected by the USB you are not really benefitting over any other PC based system.
USB can handle up to 24bit 96kHz in one direction.
i2s can handle up to 64bit 192kHz in one direction and 64bit 96kHz bi directional.
So in theory i2s is better placed for handling high quality audio files. I don’t know if it is fully utilized on the Rpi but in theory it is a good way to go for HQ audio.
The second area where benefits are likely being gained, is that the Rpi is a simple piece of computer hardware, with fewer things going on to get in the way of running audio. One of the things that builders of PC based FBA systems do, is strip out all the unnecessary parts of the system, removing things that get in the way or are a drain on resources and not needed for running audio files, removing both hardware and software routines. No need to do that on the Rpi its allready stripped down to the basics.
So those seem to be the advantages, which I can see how they might contribute to quality audio.
Darren66
28-03-2015, 15:27
Have been reading through all this with great interest. At the moment I use flac and wav files on HDD into laptop running jriver 20 into DAC,then into Cambridge Audio 840a amp. So with the pi2/IQ-Audio DAC+ People are talking about connecting to pre amp or power amp.Does any one know if you connect to a intergrated amp you loose some of the benefits of this set up. I'm new to this so if it's a stupid question I apologise.
Thanks Darren.
Have been reading through all this with great interest. At the moment I use flac and wav files on HDD into laptop running jriver 20 into DAC,then into Cambridge Audio 840a amp. So with the pi2/IQ-Audio DAC+ People are talking about connecting to pre amp or power amp.Does any one know if you connect to a intergrated amp you loose some of the benefits of this set up. I'm new to this so if it's a stupid question I apologise.
Thanks Darren.
The IQ Audio DAC seems to be a bit special in the way it handles its output to the amplifier. But it and other Pi based DACs just plug into the integrated amplifier or pre or passive pre, just like any source would. I'm currently using a Sabre (http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/kits-modules-diy-dac/audiophonics-i-sabre-dac-es9023-raspberry-pi-a-b-i2s-p-9341.html) based board into an integrated amplifier with no issues.
I did a bit of digging, so here goes with a non too technical explanation of what makes this thing tick.
The audio is handled by an i2s serial bus (data transfer method), this only handles audio and is not busy handling lots of other traffic. Most systems use i2s but hand the audio over to the USB bus for output. The USB bus also handles traffic from other devices running at the same time, so I think you can see the benefit of using the cleaner path by using only i2s.
i2s usually shunts audio data around from chip to chip on the PCB and USB is more about shunting data from device to device, that would be the simplest way of looking at it.
To take best advantage of the Rpi system you need to use the piggy backed DAC that plugs directly into the i2s bus. If you use an external DAC connected by the USB you are not really benefitting over any other PC based system.
USB can handle up to 24bit 96kHz in one direction.
i2s can handle up to 64bit 192kHz in one direction and 64bit 96kHz bi directional.
So in theory i2s is better placed for handling high quality audio files. I don’t know if it is fully utilized on the Rpi but in theory it is a good way to go for HQ audio.
The second area where benefits are likely being gained, is that the Rpi is a simple piece of computer hardware, with fewer things going on to get in the way of running audio. One of the things that builders of PC based FBA systems do, is strip out all the unnecessary parts of the system, removing things that get in the way or are a drain on resources and not needed for running audio files, removing both hardware and software routines. No need to do that on the Rpi its allready stripped down to the basics.
So those seem to be the advantages, which I can see how they might contribute to quality audio.
That all seems like common sense to me Ken. A good explanation.
Whether the differences are within human perception though I guess we'll only know if we try.
Hi Ken,
Thanks for having a dig around and uncovering some interesting points...
The audio is handled by an i2s serial bus (data transfer method), this only handles audio and is not busy handling lots of other traffic. Most systems use i2s but hand the audio over to the USB bus for output. The USB bus also handles traffic from other devices running at the same time, so I think you can see the benefit of using the cleaner path by using only i2s.
The second area where benefits are likely being gained, is that the Rpi is a simple piece of computer hardware, with fewer things going on to get in the way of running audio. One of the things that builders of PC based FBA systems do, is strip out all the unnecessary parts of the system, removing things that get in the way or are a drain on resources and not needed for running audio files, removing both hardware and software routines. No need to do that on the Rpi its allready stripped down to the basics.
Indeed; all of which ably supports the mantra in audio I always champion, which is Keep It Simple, Stupid (the K.I.S.S principle). There's simply too much 'shite' going on inside most computers, in order for them to facilitate a quiet enough (and thus sonically optimal) environment for audio, and *that* is where the sheer design simplicity of the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC comes into its own! :)
NOTHING is in there that doesn't need to be.
To take best advantage of the Rpi system you need to use the piggy backed DAC that plugs directly into the i2s bus. If you use an external DAC connected by the USB you are not really benefitting over any other PC based system.
Again, that's precisely what my ears have (very clearly) told me. As you've outlined, the secret of the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC combo is in its simplicity, and the fact that everything has been so well thought out and implemented.
Therefore, adding an external DAC, which in all likelihood will be inferior to the IQ Audio, in this application, (not to mention interconnect cables liable to increase jitter), simply complicates matters, adversely effecting sonic synergy - and so is most likely a retrograde step.
USB can handle up to 24bit 96kHz in one direction.
i2s can handle up to 64bit 192kHz in one direction and 64bit 96kHz bi directional.
So in theory i2s is better placed for handling high quality audio files. I don’t know if it is fully utilized on the Rpi but in theory it is a good way to go for HQ audio.
I think the stats above say a great deal. As for whether or not the Pi is fully utilised for handling high-quality audio files, well if it isn't, then it'd hate to hear what it would be like if it was!! :eek:
Quite simply, this little thing, used in conjunction with the IQ-Audio DAC+ isn't outperforming vastly much more expensive equipment for nothing.
I think you're little 'synopsis' of why that might be gets pretty much to the heart of the matter, and the addition of a judiciously implemented high-quality linear PSU is only likely to further increase its efficacy, thus making the purchase of an RPi/IQ-Audio DAC combo a veritable no-brainer.
So when are you getting one? :cool:
Marco.
I have a few other purchases for my system comming up but I can see me getting one of these fairly soon.:)
Darren66
28-03-2015, 17:06
The IQ Audio DAC seems to be a bit special in the way it handles its output to the amplifier. But it and other Pi based DACs just plug into the integrated amplifier or pre or passive pre, just like any source would. I'm currently using a Sabre (http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/kits-modules-diy-dac/audiophonics-i-sabre-dac-es9023-raspberry-pi-a-b-i2s-p-9341.html) based board into an integrated amplifier with no issues.
Thanks Rupert that's good to know. May have to treat my self.
They seem to be selling like hot cakes......hope Marco bought shares in the company :eek: :lolsign:
My Pi starter kit arrived in da'hoose this afternoon. Just downloading the Volumio image now. The IQaudio DAC+ is out of stock until after April the 20th according to Gordon so I'll be using USB to start with until stock is available and may also connect up to my DIY TDA1541a NOS DAC using I2S….
I've been studying the PSU feeds on the Pi and think it would be quite easy to get a good linear supply built for the Pi and one for the DAC. This would improve the USB power supply for USB DACs, I don't think it is going to be necessary to go bonkers on the PSU especially given the price and that there are some very good performing off-the shelf regulators available these days...
It will be interesting to compare to my modded SB…great fun project!
The second area where benefits are likely being gained, is that the Rpi is a simple piece of computer hardware, with fewer things going on to get in the way of running audio. One of the things that builders of PC based FBA systems do, is strip out all the unnecessary parts of the system, removing things that get in the way or are a drain on resources and not needed for running audio files, removing both hardware and software routines. No need to do that on the Rpi its allready stripped down to the basics.
Most definitely, speaking as someone who has done just this with a number of players over the last 4 years, the more plain vanilla you can make your playback system (both hardware and software), the greater the return regarding SQ. At least that has been my experience. Building a good Windows system, although not that difficult if you have some hardware and software knowledge, was never as simple as using a Raspberry Pi and Volumio software.
All I ever strived to achieve was producing a simple, low power server with no moving parts, clean power and just sufficient processes running in the software to play music and nothing else and be controlled remotely from either another computer on the same network, or a tablet/mobile device. The Pi and Volumio software does just this without the need to do anything else and at very little cost. I have no need to try/build one myself right now (heard them and they are as good as Marco is claiming) as I have a Windows/JRiver system that achieves the same result, but a Pi is certainly a very simple, elegant solution, that ticks all the boxes that most FBA system builders have strived to achieve over the years, without any of the head scratching and at a fraction of the cost.
Now has never been a better time to jump on the bus and having a Pi need not replace anything else in your system, it enhances it and gives you access to far more music and for most people I suspect it will outshine whatever CD player they currently own. The convenience is an added bonus but I made my decision to switch over, when I realised I could surpass the sound quality of any CD player I was trialling at the time for the same or less financial outlay. I also found listening to music for very long sessions fatiguing with a CDP, not so now with FBA.
Boy oh boy this new Raspberry Pi set up is exciting. I cant wait for Gazjam's take on it when he builds my unit. :)
Bourneendboy
29-03-2015, 11:08
This all looks very interesting, looking to go this route once the IQAUDIO DAC+ comes back into stock.
Regarding accessing music files, can these just be put onto a USB stick or USB hard drive?
Cheers,
Bill.
Either AFAIK.
I'm up and running, like the airplay feature and inbuilt Spotify of Volumio. Running USB into a variety of DACs in the office at the moment, won't be able to get a really good listen until later in the week. Just glad its working!
Nice one, Neal. How are you getting on now things have had a chance to bed in? :)
Marco.
Hi Bill,
This all looks very interesting, looking to go this route once the IQAUDIO DAC+ comes back into stock.
Regarding accessing music files, can these just be put onto a USB stick or USB hard drive?
As far as I know, yes. I first heard the Pi/IQ-Audio DAC with a USB drive, and it worked very well and sounded superb :)
Marco.
Anyone had any success getting WiFi connectivity with the Pi 2?
I'm using the Pi2, Squeezeplug/Max2play NOOB distro, IQaudio Pi-DAC+...and this wiFi dongle...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7811UN-150Mbps-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B003MTTJOY/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
...via LAN LMS sees the player, however wifi connectivity to my SKY sagem router is unworkable...:scratch:
possibly the router. i had one of those sky jobs and it was a pain. rarely got any networking with it. probably the set up could be changed but i just gave up trying.
possibly the router. i had one of those sky jobs and it was a pain. rarely got any networking with it. probably the set up could be changed but i just gave up trying.
Cheers for the reply...
Router is fine (and has been for years), LMS & 4 SBs hanging off it, SKY HD, numerous laptops, and plenty of other mobile devices, I even used the Edimax WiFi dongle with my laptop, superb connectivity...I suspect some incompatibility between the dongle and the Pi, there're lots of conflicting reviews on amazon R.E. Pi wifi dongles, and it's hard to track one that will definitely work with a Pi 2
Perhaps this should be a separate thread...
Anyone tried using a PI 2 with an A2DP dongle and streaming from a Bluetooth laptop? Idea is to get it to do A2DP to async USB out to an external DAC.
Sounds like a challenge but it would be very cool. Specifically want async USB out and no other type.
BTW there are plenty of Bluetooth receivers that will receive A2DP and output SPDIF but NONE that will do async USB. Might need some code to get this to work if there is nothing out there that will do it. Suspect there is nothing.
Gordon@IQ
31-03-2015, 13:28
Hi, I've just recently jointed AoS as a customer had provided me with a link to this discussion. What a surprise to see so many positive comments on this thread, a load of questions and obvious thirst for great SQ.
Firstly, I have signed up as a vendor so obviously I have an overall goal to increase business but I hope you will also see that I am just as interested in musical enjoyment and SQ. I will answer any questions I can and will try to present an unbiased view. I've read through the 50 pages or so and put the following together - please let me know if I missed something.
Q) Does Marco have shares
A) No
Q) Do you have any spare Pi-DAC+ lying around
A) No
Q) When will you have Pi-DAC+
A) blank PCBs will arrive 20th April, these will then need to be populated and tested before being made available for customers to purchase. I expect them to be available late April.
Q) Where can I buy Pi-DAC+
A) https://www.tindie.com/stores/IQaudio/ but we'll also be adding UK distributors (a couple well known in the Pi world) end April too.
Q) What ppower supply do you recommend?
A) The Apple USB bricks are pretty good, for the Pi-AMP+ (which back powers the Pi and DAC+ too) we recommend the XP Power VEH60US15
Q) What about Linear power supplies?
A) YMMV - many have got this going and say they can hear a difference. The Pi-DAC+ pin usage is shown in the user docs but don't go blowing up your DAC+ doign this - we recommend the DAC+ is powered from the Pi or the Pi-AMP+ :-)
Q) Why is everything on tindie.com in US$
A) That's a tindie thing, We use tindie as it is a great sales location for the DIY / Maker market. We're based in the UK and Pi-DAC+ etc. are manufactured here too. I'm not a web page specialist so haven't put the effort or time into doing our own shop front. This may come but I'd rather use distributors to handle that going forward.
Q) Hardware volume control
A) Right, that's a good topic and I'll try and address it simply.
Some DAC chips output at a specific fixed line level (TI PCM5102 plus many more), others have variable output, the TI PCM5122 as used on Pi-DAC+, for example. The variable output is controlled on-chip through a volume register. Write value "a" into the volume register and you get max volume "A", value "b" and you get volume "B". How this volume change is handled on-chip is deep in the device design. This volume is delivered to the Linux system through the Linux ALSA driver and the Linux ALSA utilities (alsamixer for example) will either pass this variable volume to the DAC or will emulate the volume adjustment by removing bits from the data BEFORE it gets to the DAC. For best SQ you want ONE volume control over the whole system (IMHO) and you don't want to start removing bits of real data to emulate low to high volume - you're throwign away data before it gets converted.
This is why we suggest that HW volume control is better than "emulated" software volume control.
The PCM5122 device however has three volume controls (two are a gain rather then volume control as such). In the original driver the full range of the PCM5122 was exposed - yep -103.5db to +23db. This didn't feel right and it was very simple to start clipping everything. I changed the driver to limit the volume from -103.5db (0%) to +4db (100%) - this allowed for quiet recordings to be played louder but still risked clipping.
As this is Linux and almost anyone can change drivers etc. there was a change made to the underlying driver which removed the single volume control and exposed 3 which worked in combination. This was exposed at the same time as the release of the Raspberry Pi2 and frankly took many by surprise.
At that point in time we had three voluem controls (mixers):
- PCM (0..100%) this is the variable bit
- Playback (selected max 1vrms or added a +6db gain for 2vrms output) should be set ON
- Playback boost (added a 0.8db gain) should be set ON
So by adjusting the mixer "PCM" you still got the -103.5db to +4db volume range
Again as this is Linux it's a work in progress and the change was impacted by another piece of code and at startup on the Pi there is a bit of code which looks for a mixer called "playback" and sets t to -23db (or something) - the impact of this is to set the max output from the DAC to just over 1v rather than just over 2v. If you are experiencing low output volume then check your settings.
A recent change has been made to this driver to attempt to add some sanity to all this. So the mixers "Playback" have been changed to "Analog Playback Volume" as they are actually analog gain setting) and "PCM" has been changed to "Playback Digital Volume". At the same time the max volume range has changed so that 100% is now 0db.
If you are interested then read here: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/commits/rpi-3.18.y/sound/soc/codecs/pcm512x.c
This change will ripple through to the Raspberry Pi Raspbian release in the coming days and unless you update your OS you will not notice. The Pi Linux software guys (those who have delivered Volumio / Rune Audio / PiCorePlayer / PiMusicBox / Moode / Shair-port sync etc.) all knwo about these things and when they update their software should make sure these changes are taken into account.
Q) Why does the Volumio volume appear onto work between 70 and 100%?
A) This is a long standing issue between ALSA (the underlying linux audio system) and MPD (the media player as used by Volumio etc.) One (I believe) uses a linear representation and the other a logarithmic range for volume. Is there a fix - not yet other than: living with this, use software volume control, use a physical volume knob or Remote control.
Q) How do I add a physical volume knob?
A) You want to add a rotary encoder to the Pi's GPIO pins and have some software that takes the rotary encoder's pulses and translates them to ALSA calls under the hood to adjust the Pi-DAC+ volume. Some details are in the IQaudIO user docs. The software for the Rotary Encoder (and for the IR code - but it's out of date) is here: www.github.com/iqaudio/
Q) This is all beyond me - do you have anything which works out the box?
A) I'm trying - there are a number of pre-configured Pi SD card images on www.iqaudio.com/downloads/ (The docs are here too) but I am a little stretched to keep these all up to date - I do refresh them from time to time based on customer needs.
Q) Anyone tried using a PI 2 with an A2DP dongle and streaming from a Bluetooth laptop?
A) This is possible and there are a few walk throughs on the web. However if you expect zero latency walk away.
Q) What's next?
A) Well we have a 2x20w Class D amp (Pi-AMP+) which sits on top of the Pi-DAC+ and sounds great :-)
Q) After that?
A) New Pi-DAC+ end of April, a BeagleBoneBlack version of the Pi-DAC+
Sorry for the loooonnnnnnggggg post - I really hope that helps to answer the various questions and more. If there are others please PM me here or email me directly on gordon@iqaudio.com
BR,
Gordon
Anyone had any success getting WiFi connectivity with the Pi 2?
I'm using the Pi2, Squeezeplug/Max2play NOOB distro, IQaudio Pi-DAC+...and this wiFi dongle...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7811UN-150Mbps-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B003MTTJOY/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
...via LAN LMS sees the player, however wifi connectivity to my SKY sagem router is unworkable...:scratch:
Your wifi dongle appears to have been used successfully at least with the original Pis ( see here: https://sites.google.com/site/picoreplayer/wifi-dongles?) Perhaps it's just a software config problem. Did you attempt wifi setup via the Squeezeplug/Max2play web interface, or at the command line?
Sorry for the loooonnnnnnggggg post - I really hope that helps to answer the various questions and more. If there are others please PM me here or email me directly on gordon@iqaudio.com
BR,
Gordon
Thanks for all the technical detail. You say a new Pi-DAC+ end of April, so you have made what changes to the next batch?
Your wifi dongle appears to have been used successfully at least with the original Pis ( see here: https://sites.google.com/site/picoreplayer/wifi-dongles?) Perhaps it's just a software config problem. Did you attempt wifi setup via the Squeezeplug/Max2play web interface, or at the command line?
Hence me buying it, however check out the first answer in the Q&A section...:scratch:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7811UN-150Mbps-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B003MTTJOY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427801850&sr=8-1&keywords=edimax
I did the NOOB LAN setup, then the same for the WiFi connection, I've posted a question for the Max2play chaps on the slimdevices forum...
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101856-Max2Play-Webinterface-for-Mediaclients-(Audioplayer-Squeezeserver-Airplay-XBMC)&p=814146&viewfull=1#post814146
walpurgis
31-03-2015, 14:39
I almost understand none of your post Gordon. ;)
Hence me buying it, however check out the first answer in the Q&A section...:scratch:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edimax-EW-7811UN-150Mbps-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B003MTTJOY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427801850&sr=8-1&keywords=edimax
I did the NOOB LAN setup, then the same for the WiFi connection, I've posted a question for the Max2play chaps on the slimdevices forum...
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101856-Max2Play-Webinterface-for-Mediaclients-(Audioplayer-Squeezeserver-Airplay-XBMC)&p=814146&viewfull=1#post814146
Ah, sounds like it's recognising WIFI networks but not connecting properly. Dongle makers have a nasty habit of changing chipsets between different hardware versions of the same product. Does using "lsusb -v" at the command line give any clue what chipset your dongle actually has, and what driver is being loaded? The command "lsmod | grep 81*" should give the answer the second question. You say you have a .tz driver, what exaclty is that file and where was that taken from?
If you only want to use Squeezelite player, do you have particular reason not to use the picoreplayer?
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