Goodbye HiFi Wigwam

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03-07-2011, 19:50
worthingpagan

grow up :rolleyes:
03-07-2011, 19:50
Audioman

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Unacceptable to whom?

The Wams AUP which was written by the forum owner & shapes what is wanted & expected on that forum said "Bad language is allowed!!!! If you do not like this, please do not join the Wam"

If you were offended you shouldn't of joined after you read the AUP!!! I take it you did read the AUP?

I assume you've been out on boys nights out & took part in the banter? Sometimes it can get close to the knuckle, but it's pretty meangless really!

All the wammers I've met & people from other forums have been very nice face to face! Things do sometimes get heated on the forums, but slapping people is far more basic than a swear word or two!!! :rolleyes:

There is a difference between verbal banter with the odd swear word and putting it in writing. I don't find it particularly offensive even on the forum except that an internet forum is not just viewed by you and your mates but anyone who comes upon it including children. Perhaps it needed a warning and over 18 declaration like a porn site.:) The overall impression I got was it degenerated into a sort of Hi-Fi Club 18-30. Perhaps getting too old but this sort of thing comes over as quite juvenile to a lot of people.
03-07-2011, 19:56
Effem

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Unacceptable to whom?

The Wams AUP which was written by the forum owner & shapes what is wanted & expected on that forum said "Bad language is allowed!!!! If you do not like this, please do not join the Wam"

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.

Quote:

If you were offended you shouldn't of joined after you read the AUP!!! I take it you did read the AUP?

Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.

Quote:

I assume you've been out on boys nights out & took part in the banter? Sometimes it can get close to the knuckle, but it's pretty meangless really!

I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.

Quote:

All the wammers I've met & people from other forums have been very nice face to face! Things do sometimes get heated on the forums, but slapping people is far more basic than a swear word or two!!! :rolleyes:

No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:
03-07-2011, 19:58
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

I thought it acceptable here as it is one of smilies the forum supply to be used!

That smiley is an indication to others that the poster is a bit of a sad sack.

I think you're the first person ever to use it :lolsign:
03-07-2011, 20:01
worthingpagan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.

Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.

I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.

No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:

Well said mate :cool:
03-07-2011, 20:02
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

A very nice offer Richard, however we don't all live in the smoke, if an event is going to happen over a weekend like Scalford then it'll turn out quite expensive for people to bring their kit down to show, far better set up an event in the Midlands and just off a major motorway like the M1 or A1, people won't mind travelling if it only takes a maximum of a couple of hours. In my opinion an enthusiasts event, which Scalford is, works in part because of it's location, being not too far away from anywhere in particular, and staying there or in the surrounding area doesn't break the bank either. Maybe these are the reasons why the event you sponsored didn't work.

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated areas can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.
03-07-2011, 20:08
chelsea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.
03-07-2011, 20:11
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audioman

There is a difference between verbal banter with the odd swear word and putting it in writing. I don't find it particularly offensive even on the forum except that an internet forum is not just viewed by you and your mates but anyone who comes upon it including children. Perhaps it needed a warning and over 18 declaration like a porn site.:) The overall impression I got was it degenerated into a sort of Hi-Fi Club 18-30. Perhaps getting too old but this sort of thing comes over as quite juvenile to a lot of people.

I do agree that perhaps it should have an over 18 declaration! Some threads are marked as 'not suitable to be open around children or at work' & that perhaps helps a little. I would think though that people supervise there children while on the internet or at least have filters in place!

Perhaps the Wam is juvenile, could be all us men are having a mid-life crisis & are trying to hang to our youth :rolleyes: But you either choose to read the forum or you choose not to! If you don't like it don't read it :cool:
03-07-2011, 20:18
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelsea

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.

Because they made it a lot of work. It can be done a lot simpler, it seems they just wanted to faff.

It is not unique for the very reasons I said, I did one last year and anyone / forum can do one, all it needs is the will.
03-07-2011, 20:27
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.

Most people naturally assume they are communicating with like-minded hi-fi enthusiasts, but if it said "F*uck off stupid c*unt forum" instead of "Hifiwigwam" then nobody would be surprised at what they found.

I can mix it with the rest of them, but I will go out to a spit and sawdust four ale bar for that kind of banter.

No doubt about that, I have met some top class folks too over the years and one of the biggest cynics is a real gent when met in the flesh, but why that was an impossible thing to be when behind a screen and keyboard? Why do these same people turn into a baying pack when someone asks a perfectly legitimate, normal and innocent question about . . . . . hifi on a hifi forum? :scratch:

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!
03-07-2011, 20:33
Jac Hawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

I do agree that perhaps it should have an over 18 declaration! Some threads are marked as 'not suitable to be open around children or at work' & that perhaps helps a little. I would think though that people supervise there children while on the internet or at least have filters in place!

Perhaps the Wam is juvenile, could be all us men are having a mid-life crisis & are trying to hang to our youth :rolleyes: But you either choose to read the forum or you choose not to! If you don't like it don't read it :cool:

But why the need to use language only fit for the gutter when talking about HIFI :scratch: Ok you may need to use the odd colourful metaphor to show your feelings on a subject, i do on the AoS, but at the WAM they really did go way way too far
03-07-2011, 20:37
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!

The problem is it is not an enclosed private area like pub is, we are talking about a public forum with access from anyone who has a computer whether you are member or not. If you want to make that comparison then make the forum content only viewable when you join.
03-07-2011, 20:41
hifinutt

Any forum is owned by the membership and I don't ever recall being asked if I found words like "C*UNT" being displayed in the largest font, in bold and a bright red colour splattered across my screen. I and many others repeatedly asked for just this one word to be kept off limits because my wife who was also an active member in the early days found it deeply offensive, plus other members were very concerned about their wives and children looking over their shoulders at the screen looking at such language. At the end of the day it was an open public forum and that means you have to be aware that "anything goes" is only appropriate when it is a closed membership organisation where the public are kept away.

yes totally agree frank
03-07-2011, 20:41
Jac Hawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

It didn't work because of a few things, Wigwam refused to advertise, and the member were downright rude about it as they saw it as some sort of rip-off event so they made trouble for it on any forum they could. BUT the point is that Scalford is not a unique event, they could be organised in every major centre of population, the way commercial Hi-Fi Shows used to be and in some case still are. AND as they die (and they will) so the hobbyist / enthusiast will take up the reigns as is now happening in forums about other industry information aspects. Also I refuse to lie down when being attacked and not defended as should be by forum AUP so I have a bad rep with some and have upset and alienated some people, as has continued here a little. ANYWAY everyone who attended sang the praises of the format (different to Scalford) and the way the show informed and helped people.

http://thelondonbakeoffshow.110mb.com/

Scalford doesn't, and shouldn't have a monopoly, I for one was asking for them at least two years before the first year of Scalford and was largely shouted down, so we come full circle and the same people now think the idea is theirs and unique :rolleyes: If you are keen then go out find a hotel in the area you want and then come here with costing and see what the members think. But one forum is not enough, other will have to allow promotion.

I could see this being done in all major population centres - London conurbation, W Midland conurbation, E Midland conurbation, Liverpool / Manchester conurbation, W Yorkshire conurbation and Glasgow. Even mini ones like extended bake-off in local hotel in less populated areas can be organised - the more the merrier. You just cut the cloth to fit the event. If I am toooo controversial to make it work I would happily duck out of it.

Wasn't really interested about your disagreements with other sites and their members, the point i was trying to make is that a major enthusiasts
event is best placed where people from all over, and not just the south east would consider attending, that's why i said in the Midlands.
03-07-2011, 20:42
wee tam

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelsea

Were else in the uk can you see/hear hi fi from the 50s upto todays offering.:scratch:

As for easy to organise from the people i've spoke to it was a LOT of work.

+ 1 :) and if it was that easy , where is the a o s pie fi being held ?
03-07-2011, 20:42
chelsea

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

But why the need to use language only fit for the gutter when talking about HIFI :scratch: Ok you may need to use the odd colourful metaphor to show your feelings on a subject, i do on the AoS, but at the WAM they really did go way way too far

I think most swearing was done in the pub/car park section and not the hifi/music section.

I don't get offended by swearing but of course some people do.
03-07-2011, 20:44
loosend

I would like to say (being a mod on another forum myself) tAos is very well run place to be involved with, we pride our forum on the quality of it's members and the good nature of its posts, we have very few issues and any are deLt with appropriately and behind the scenes as not to effect the structure of the forum and the morals we like to implement from all who post.
It's nice to be able to give praise where praise is due!

So to Marco and the other mods along with the members here who are all good guys from my experience, I just wanted to commend u all on making this forum very welcoming and interesting :)
03-07-2011, 20:45
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

The problem is it is not an enclosed private area like pub is, we are talking about a public forum with access from anyone who has a computer whether you are member or not. If you want to make that comparison then make the forum content only viewable when you join.

Richard, I don't own the forum so don't have that power, none of the membership does, as you well know!

I wouldn't have a problem with a member only viewable forum, but that would be the owners choice again!
03-07-2011, 20:45
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by wee tam

+ 1 :) and if it was that easy , where is the a o s pie fi being held ?

Where ever the membership wants it held, or if a member wants to try and find a hotel, cost it, and put it up as a proposition. Then ask for a volunteer to sponsor it who has a card credit with the adequate credit, then the membership back it up and support it - simples!
03-07-2011, 20:49
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Richard, I don't own the forum so don't have that power, none of the membership does, as you well know!

I wouldn't have a problem with a member only viewable forum, but that would be the owners choice again!

Well it seems to me that the content at Wigwam, which such a large number of people here object to, makes it a requisite. Then they can all do and say what they want to each other without offending anyone else. Plus people have to make an effort to walk through the door, so if they don't like it, then tough.
03-07-2011, 20:52
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jac Hawk

Wasn't really interested about your disagreements with other sites and their members, the point i was trying to make is that a major enthusiasts
event is best placed where people from all over, and not just the south east would consider attending, that's why i said in the Midlands.

Then I say again, why does it have to be one. Was there just one commercial hi-fi show? Forums and other on line aspects are the future of this industry, and this aspect is just an extension of that community.
03-07-2011, 21:00
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Well it seems to me that the content at Wigwam, which such a large number of people here object to, makes it a requisite. Then they can all do and say what they want to each other without offending anyone else. Plus people have to make an effort to walk through the door, so if they don't like it, then tough.

Richard, they have to make an effort to walk through the door now! No one is forced to read the Wam, it is a choice!! So why read it then moan about it when you choose to read it!!!!

It's cool that people have the choice to be here & enjoy the forum! They have the choice, they do not have to visit the Wam if they find it offensive or not to their likeing!

Anyway I'm going to step out of this one, as you can see I enjoyed the Wam! & I also enjoy being here & I don't suppose Marco needs or wants this here! So apoliges Marco. :cool:
03-07-2011, 21:02
chelsea

I don't belive there would be enough interest in each city to get 50 different systems and hundreds of paying punters to make it break even.

50 systems was only just managed at scalford.
03-07-2011, 21:03
Effem

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Frank, the Wam is owned by James! Just as AoS is owned by Marco! We are just their guests, If need be either can ban me, I can't ban them & neither can any of the membership! It is their choice on what happens on their forum James pulling the plug pretty much tells you this!!!

As you say you visit a spit & sawdust pub when you want that expierence & that sort of banter! So why should forums be different? you visit the one or ones that fit the expierence you are looking for!

If you don't like the spit & sawdust pub then don't visit! I am though old enough to make my own choice which pub I visit & sometimes the Wam fits!

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.
03-07-2011, 21:08
Jac Hawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Then I say again, why does it have to be one. Was there just one commercial hi-fi show? Forums and other on line aspects are the future of this industry, and this aspect is just an extension of that community.

There can be as many as you want, but you've already highlighted the main problem, attendance, if there was an event on every week, some would be popular and some would die, leaving someone with a bill to pay, Commercial events are different and no one person is left with a bill if it isn't successful, a major event once or twice a year organised and run by enthusiasts, would mean that it would be fun, well attended and successful.:)
03-07-2011, 21:09
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

Richard, they have to make an effort to walk through the door now! No one is forced to read the Wam, it is a choice!! So why read it then moan about it when you choose to read it!!!!

We all wander around the web, it just take a step to put your foot in sh1t. If you have to join then you take the consequences of stepping in it, it was your choice.

Personally I joined Wigwam about four years ago, without realising the place it was. Made one post about ebay and got attacked immediately by the in crowd dog pack. Next was a post from James demanding £50 for the privilege of being insulted, so both were told where they could stick it.
03-07-2011, 21:11
ursus262

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audioman

I'm sure most of these posters act quite normaly when not hiding behind a computer screen because in the real world they would probably get a good slapping.

Quite!
03-07-2011, 21:14
Jac Hawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely :eyebrows:
03-07-2011, 21:15
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by chelsea

I don't belive there would be enough interest in each city to get 50 different systems and hundreds of paying punters to make it break even.

50 systems was only just managed at scalford.

Why does it have to be so large, are domestic bake-off that large, in that case do people not enjoy them. This type of event can be scaled up or down at will.
03-07-2011, 21:19
Marco

Guys,

I've been out all day, so have missed this discussion, and am shocked to hear of what's happened to Wigwam. I'm having a read through the thread now and will comment in due course.

However, just one quick point....

Let's not turn this into a Wigwam slagging match (as the nature of some of the posts here have indicated - and indeed if there are any more of these, they will be deleted), but rather offer our collective thoughts as to how we (AoS) can help with what is obviously a very difficult situation for some.

Ok, so let's keep it friendly, and I will comment further, as soon as I have read the thread properly :cool:

Marco.
03-07-2011, 21:20
AlanB

A very sad day. Almost a meeting place for many hifi enthusiasts.
Thanks to James and the Mods who made it so informative and entertaining.
03-07-2011, 21:20
Effem

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

We all wander around the web, it just take a step to put your foot in sh1t. If you have to join then you take the consequences of stepping in it, it was your choice.

Personally I joined Wigwam about four years ago, without realising the place it was. Made one post about ebay and got attacked immediately by the in crowd dog pack. Next was a post from James demanding £50 for the privilege of being insulted, so both were told where they could stick it.

Thank you Richard for reminding me about another point.

Let's not forget either that James was also signing up members at £5.00 a pop, plus as Richard says £50 from the dealers/traders, plus extra for their banner adverts, money from Google too, so I cannot accept it was a huge drain on his financial resources, so the cries of poverty don't wash with me. Marco does the same job and far better too I might add with NO money rolling in from the members and dealers.

And for Marco's benefit, I am not "slagging off the Wigwam" but it does stick in my throat somewhat that the apparent demise of the forum should prompt the sudden influx of it's members to shed tears here when heretofore they never set foot n the place. Fine, it has collapsed, I really don't want to read about it.
03-07-2011, 21:24
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

Thank you Richard for reminding me about another point.

Let's not forget either that James was also signing up members at £5.00 a pop, plus as Richard says £50 from the dealers/traders, plus extra for their banner adverts, money from Google too, so I cannot accept it was a huge drain on his financial resources, so the cries of poverty don't wash with me. Marco does the same job and far better too I might add with NO money rolling in from the members and dealers.

It has seemed to me for a while now that one is doing it for the love of the hobby and the other is doing it for the hatred of the industry.

Oh! and BTW does this latest event mean he is going to refund that to the people who paid it recently. The £50 was an annual charge.
03-07-2011, 21:26
ursus262

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

... but rather offer our collective thoughts as to how we (AoS) can help with what is obviously a very difficult situation for some.

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.
03-07-2011, 21:34
Jac Hawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ursus262

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

well said David:)
03-07-2011, 21:35
Tim

Quote:

Originally Posted by ursus262

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

AoS has been doing that for as long as I've been here and a long-time before that too.
03-07-2011, 21:38
Marco

Quote:

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

Absolutely, David - and rest assured, those values we hold dearly will never be abandoned.

However, if James has pulled the plug full-time (which I suspect not - I'm sure he'll reconsider and use this opportunity to have a rethink in terms of the direction the forum was going in), there will be a lot of frustrated and unhappy (good) people who might need our help in keeping a chain of communication open, such as with classified ads, etc, which others have already alluded to.

At the moment, that's what I'm concerned with the most :)

So if there are (temporary) ex-Wigwammers out there, who would like AoS to facilitate the above (should they not already be using pfm), then they are most welcome to join :cool:

Marco.
03-07-2011, 21:39
technobear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

And for Marco's benefit, I am not "slagging off the Wigwam" but...

Oh yes you are! You're a very naughty boy. I am detecting the smell of grapes and not of the sweet variety http://www.technobear.btinternet.co....icons/cuff.gif

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

...it does stick in my throat somewhat that the apparent demise of the forum should prompt the sudden influx of it's members to shed tears here when heretofore they never set foot n the place.

Most of them have gone to Pink Fish. Let's hope all the measurement trolls headed that way and all those with ears head this way :lolsign:
03-07-2011, 21:39
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effem

A history lesson might be appropriate here Alfie.

Hifiwigwam was born pure and simply from the problems hi-fi choice had and a few of us decided we would break away and create our own forum to get away from those problems. Nobody nominated James to set up that forum, but we went with the flow based upon his character he demonstrated. I was going to set it up myself but held back because I had trade interests I thought it would not be appropriate. The ethos was it was purely a forum where we could discuss our hobby without flaming, we could discuss contentious issues like cables without the 1000+ vitriolic posts that regularly occurred on HFC.

For the first year it was exactly that and yes some politically incorrect threads were started and James was on top of them in an instant. He upset my missus over her crystal healing beliefs and I can still remember word for word the sincere apology he wrote to her. I took him to task about the "C" word being increasingly used on the forum which my missus found so offensive and he took steps to stop it - that was all we asked, just that ONE word, which he did for a while.

I drove clean across the country to attend a bakeoff he was hosting and he was the epitome of charm and nicety, a really nice guy to meet. I had met him previously to that at a bakeoff in Bristol and the damn fool scratched the living daylights out of my PS Audio power amp by placing a DAC on it with spikes underneath, then at his bakeoff he managed to fry someone's Linn Classik by shorting the speaker wires together, but no matter, James was a likeable chap and it was easy to forgive his mistakes.

Year three and James was a changed man. Suddenly he had "seen the light" about cables and tweaks, so that became his entire Mantra from then on. He became the biggest anti-foo protagonist and while I didn't particularly mind that, it was the offensiveness in which that Mantra was delivered with, that I had serious issues with. No longer the ordinary hi-fi enthusiast that I knew at the beginning, willing to share his experiences with others, he was on an ego trip being the "forum owner" and had become a total bully from that position.

From then until now it has been downhill all the way for me and his bigotry has got worse and worse - as anyone who read his recent rant about public sector workers will testify.

In summary then, if the wigwam was originally conceived to be a spit and sawdust four ale bar, with disgusting language being used, overt racism and misogyny, condoned bullying and abuse, then as you say I would have steered well clear from the outset, or not allowed it to be created in the first place had I known that the "owner" would turn it into a bear pit of the worst kind, his personal playground for his inflated ego.

Well I said I was out of this one, but all the effort deserves a reply!

Thanks for the history lesson Frank, but any personal problems you've got with James are not my business & It's harsh as he has no right to reply!

Forums grow & change & that can't be to everyones liking, even some of the founder members aren't going to like everything. Peoples beliefs may change & they are entitled to there opinion, as you are to yours!

I agree it can get a bit much when the pack mentality kicks in & everybody is entitled to their opinion & they argue that, with some they argue their point a little strongly! If the forum is not what you like or want, you leave & find somewhere more to your liking & beliefs. Which is what you've done, but your experience is not mine & I was still enjoying some of what the Wam had to offer, the humour & off the wall style I enjoy! I have had far more pleasure than displeasure there even as a ADM9 owner :)
03-07-2011, 21:48
Cosey Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

Absolutely, David - and rest assured, those values we hold dearly will never be abandoned.

However, if James has pulled the plug full-time (which I suspect not), there will be a lot of frustrated and unhappy (good) people who might need our help in keeping a chain of communication open, such as with classified ads, etc, which others have already alluded to.

At the moment, that's what I'm concerned with the most :)

So if there are (temporary) ex-Wigwammers out there, who would like AoS to facilitate the above, then they are most welcome to join :cool:

Marco.

an excellent post there Marco as i am new, i was a newer member on the wam, & their are plenty of good people that i seen their ,that would fit in well with this forum, not all were foul mouthed .
03-07-2011, 21:49
StanleyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie2902

It's harsh as he has no right to reply!

And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.
03-07-2011, 21:50
ursus262

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatGig

AoS has been doing that for as long as I've been here and a long-time before that too.

That's alright then.
03-07-2011, 21:53
Dr Bunsen Honeydew

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanleyB

And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.

+1
03-07-2011, 21:54
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by StanleyB

And neither did many of us who have been frequently spoken ill of, or our products castigated, on wigwam. So your point in defence of wigwam holds no water with me.

I have no fight with you Stan! But two wrongs don't make a right! :)
03-07-2011, 21:54
MartinT

Quote:

Originally Posted by ursus262

AoS can help by setting a standard based upon a culture of mutual respect, courtesy and good humour. Basically, AoS seems to embody these values, so let's keep on doing it.

Nicely said, David.
03-07-2011, 21:55
Marco

Quote:

an excellent post there Marco as i am new, i was a newer member on the wam, & their are plenty of good people that i seen their ,that would fit in well with this forum, not all were foul mouthed .

No problem, Jim :)

Hi Alfie,

Quote:

Thanks for the history lesson Frank, but any personal problems you've got with James are not my business & It's harsh as he has no right to reply!

Au contraire, James is not banned from here, so should he decide to make any comment, he is more than welcome to join and do so :cool:

Marco.
03-07-2011, 22:05
alfie2902

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco

No problem, Jim :)

Hi Alfie,

Au contraire, James is not banned from here, so should he decide to make any comment, he is more than welcome to join and do so :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

My mistake, sorry! The rest of the post stands though!

I can understand people venting over any wrong they see the wam has done now it is no more (temporarily perhaps) but I've enjoyed my time there, as I do here, & will say things as I see them :)
03-07-2011, 22:06
ursus262

Excuse me while I ramble, but yesterday I bought an SACD of some works by Per Norgard, a Danish composer. I sat today, slack-jawed, at some of the most beautiful music ever composed that was coming out of my speakers.

This is what my hi-fi is for: to act as a conduit through which I can be moved by artistes' musical messages. It saddens me to see such bickering because, actually, it's just quite pathetic. :(

Even on AoS, a thread about cables had to be locked because it descended into a slanging match between two opposing sides, with each trying to rubbish the other's point of view. I sometimes wish people would state their view from the heart, but plainly and clearly, and leave it at that. But too often, ego gets in the way. It's all so unnecessary.
03-07-2011, 22:23
RotaryConnection

Some true colours emerging here-no surprise really but just a wee bit disappointing when some seem to be putting themselves forward as paragons of virtue..
Frank, I wondered why you left with such bad feeling, I understand somewhat better why now and I'm sorry for it-enjoyed reading a lot of posts you made there.
The bitterness that comes across is not a good look though regardless.
Regularly log in to WW, AoS and PFM as they all have their own nuances and strengths, that WW is the only one I usually post on is more habit than anything else.
Lack of free time too maybe..
Personally, I've never been particularly offended nor I hope, caused offence on any one of them, but The Wam is the only one that has regularly cracked me up laughing at some of the things people have posted there-each to their own I guess, but free will whether to look or participate..As with many things in life, you get out what you put in to it.
Hanging around for long enough and in some cases meeting up with people there,you get a feel of what they're really about and see through the noise.
Incidently, James was perfectly civil in apologising to me when I pulled him up about his comments on public sector workers. We might have different political views, but I can see past that, same as most of the other ranting.
It's great that Marco and Tony are accomodating talk while WW remains closed, much appreciated.
03-07-2011, 22:29
thaiman

Wigwam forum was known for arguments (in the last few years any way), and look around now, only few hours after James pull the plug (and even then still not certain it's close for good), there are three threads in 3 different forums, arguing about Wigwam forum. :doh:

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