View Full Version : VFM/SPPV studio cables test
Hi Frank,
How on did you arrive at that conclusion?
The Gothams are no "sow's ear", certainly in terms of how they perform, sonically. They are extremely capable professional cables, used in recording and broadcasting studios worldwide, which happen to be very keenly priced, largely due to their absence of an 'audiophile badge'...! ;)
They may not be the 'ultimate' cables out there, or even the 'best' ones in the context of your own system, but do you honestly think I'd be using them in a £30k+ system if, intrinsically, they weren't any good?
Since when has price been the ultimate arbiter for anything in audio?
Quite simply, you can't judge the cost of pro-audio equipment or cables on rather fanciful 'audiophile pricing'. If the Gothams were sold by any of major hi-fi cable manufacturers, they'd be priced at rather more than £20, so to all intents and purposes, they are not £20 cables, and therefore can't really be judged on that basis.
I use Van Damme Blue Series Studio Grade 2 x 2.5mm speaker cable, downstairs on the Celestions, at a mere £2.50 per metre, which sounds as good as or better than other speaker cables, with an 'audiophile badge', I've used costing £60 per metre! Therefore, when judging cables, it's folly simply to be fixated by price.
A "better cable" in exactly what way? Also, are you aware of the heritage of Gotham cables? If not, read here: http://hey-wire-cables.myshopify.com/collections/guitar-cables
I would suggest that any company that has, I quote: "close working relationships with companies like Neumann and EMT", and has been going since 1958, wouldn't be producing products that were too shabby.... Furthermore, could the following be why the Gothams sound so good in some systems (note in particular the emboldened text in blue):
I don't know... What I do know is that, despite their low price (in 'audiophile' terms), in 30+ years of using high-end hi-fi equipment, I've yet to hear a better pair of interconnect cables in my system - and I look forward to further maximising their performance by fitting better plugs, which in reality, is where the real cost-cutting has occurred.
Marco.
It was someone else that used the term "silk purse" and I was just using that phrase again ;)
Let me make this clear, I just luuuuurve it when anyone stumbles across a cable that punches way above it's class and price band and I really don't have a total fixation with esoteric high priced cables with more zeros than Starship Enterprise's odometer - despite what anyone thinks, hence my unbridled enthusiasm for the Belkin silver series and some others too in times past for their sound per pound values.
It could also be said that some recording studios are wired stem to stern with cables that have an eye watering price and some use the bog standard Van Damme or it's equivalent throughout. Without any correlation between the cost expended and the quality of sound that falls out the end of the recording and production process, whichever brand of cables is being utilised shouldn't enter into this discussion, so the fact that some studios use Gotham impresses me not one bit if for example Gotham cable was chosen purely for it's low price and nothing else.
Many companies that have a long history are mostly trading on that history alone, because the contemporary model today can be vastly different. Who is to say that the latest products are not produced overseas and the quality has suffered immensely since, so I discount long and distinguished track records with a pinch of salt nowadays. I bought a Vax cleaner based upon reputation and it's a bag of unreliable shite because the "made in china" label says it all.
If the Gothams are "sounding good in some systems" that tells me that the cable does have inherent flaws which are being obfuscated under the guise of "synergy" and the lack thereof.
My main aim of getting my hands on a set of Gotham Pros is really only to compare with the old GAC-1 which I have had for quite a few years to see if the evolution is indeed a forward step or just hot air. No real purpose to it as I won't run it in my system anyway as it has more chance of laying a dozen eggs than ousting my current resident cable for sure. It might even end up in the wife's little TEAC system so she gets a new cable too instead of the 'freebie' she has now :eyebrows:
No worries, Frank. Of course the Gotham cables are flawed, as indeed are ALL cables in some way or another, including your Slics, as there is no such thing as the 'perfect cable'! ;)
In my system, the Gothams are certainly less flawed than other interconnect cables I've used before; less so, for example, than ones which once cost me £850 a pair, so you can understand why it's a totally fallacy judging cables, or almost anything in audio, on price alone, especially when one is dealing with pro-audio products, which generally always offer higher SPPV than many of their 'audiophile branded' counterparts.
Marco.
No worries, Frank. Of course the Gotham cables are flawed, as indeed are ALL cables in some way or another, including your Slics, as there is no such thing as the 'perfect cable'! ;)
In my system, the Gothams are certainly less flawed than any other interconnect cables I've used before; less so, for example, than ones which once cost me £850 a pair, so you can understand why it's a totally fallacy judging cables, or almost anything in audio, on price alone, especially when one is dealing with pro-audio products, which generally always offer higher SPPV than many of their 'audiophile branded' counterparts.
Marco.
Good grief, someone actually agrees with the mantra I have been banging on about for years that all cables are flawed - some more flawed than others because there isn't a "perfect" cable :lol:
On that basis Marco I am glad the Gotham is ringing your bells so don't let a silly old fart like me spoil your enjoyment of it. It's the expenditure of the plugs that I have some unease with, given that there is a goodly list of cables I know for that total price which would achieve the same result. Each to his own I say ;)
Indeed.
The 'fancy plug' thing, for me, is simply because I'm convinced (as indeed is evidenced by Brian's report) that there is mileage to be had in upgrading the stock plugs on the Gothams - and as I only want to do it once, I've decided to go with fitting what I consider are the best RCA phono plugs on the market: Furutech CF-126(R).
CF-102(R)s are equally as good, but the smaller cable entry of the former makes it more practical to use with the Gothams.
Initially, I wanted to use the CF-126(R)s on the end of my Yannis tonearm cable, to match the CF-DIN(R) fitted: http://www.partsconnexion.com/FTECH-74315.html, but decided on Eichmann silver bullets instead, so now I'd like to revisit the Furutech route, as I use other examples of their carbon-fibre designed plugs throughout my system, with great success.
Also, even though the final cost of the Gothams, fitted with CF-126(R) plugs, is around £200, I fully expect them (thus modified) to compete, sonically, with many much more expensive 'audiophile branded' cables, which for me is part of the fun of doing it! ;)
I will always strive to achieve the highest possible SPPV from any component in my system, and enjoy creating 'giant-killers'... :eyebrows:
Marco.
jandl100
08-05-2014, 21:59
No worries, Frank. Of course the Gotham cables are flawed, as indeed are ALL cables in some way or another, including your Slics, as there is no such thing as the 'perfect cable'! ;)
There's no such thing as a perfect anything.
... except Bugsy, my cat. :)
My set of Gothams has finally arrived.
Have plugged them into my system and it's not pleasant listening at all. "Coloured" isn't the word for it and I truly don't share Marco's optimism that throwing £240 worth of plugs at it is likely to remedy the peaky and unsophisticated sound I am listening to right now, in fact my own experience tells me the plugs will only serve to emphasize these traits.
But I will still keep an open mind about the whole thing and await Marco's verdict on what his Furutech transplant yields. If I can find the time later I have some superb silver Cardas RCAs lurking somewhere in the vaults and will try a plug swap myself.
I forgot to take my set home (they were delivered to work) last night - will have a listen tonight (but I can't say the forum reports fill me with optimism).
If I do think it sounds poor I certainly won't be soldering hundred of pounds of RCA plug on to them (or even the spare Eichmann Cu bullets I have).
Have plugged them into my system and it's not pleasant listening at all. "Coloured" isn't the word for it...
Lol... What is there to say when your experience is so diametrically opposed to mine? If they'd sounded like that in my system, they'd have been put in the bin!
Marco [currently sitting listening to Nick Drake, swamped in coloration, through his peaky and unsophisticated sounding hi-fi system].
If they can make Nick Drake listenable they must be good. Bloody miraculous in fact...
I've ended up fitting an old set of Eichmans, couldn't face ripping the Neutriks off the Chords. The fit is much better. Anyhow, the cables sound OK, the treble is slightly recessed compared to what I'm used to (maybe it's that small difference in capacitance but I cant see how) but the sound is fine. Peaky? Coloured? No not here, quite well balanced IMHO and good detail as well. A cable 'punching well within its class' ;)
:lolsign:
Well, I guess that music tastes, in terms of what is considered as good or bad, are just as subjective as the performance of interconnect cables!
Marco.
...(but I can't say the forum reports fill me with optimism).
Does that include the forum reports others and I have posted, expressing our delight at how good they sound, or are you simply focussing on the negatives? ;)
Like I said before, Mark, I don't expect you to prefer them to your usual choices.
Marco.
twickers
09-05-2014, 13:25
I've tried the Gothams for a couple of days and decided they are not for me. I ordered some of the Belkin pure av and much preferred them. Less shut-in sounding IMO, with the Gothams more two dimensional. Worth a punt tho'.:)
Nothing ventured ;). I've already moved them on for someone else to try.
Peaky? Coloured? No not here, quite well balanced IMHO and good detail as well.
Interesting, isn't it, how one can go from what you've reported above, along with quite a few others here (and my own views on the Gothams), to how, for example, Frank has described their sound?
Therefore, IMO, these diametrically opposed views raise the following possibilities:
1) The sonic performance of interconnect cables *truly* is massively system dependent.
2) The 'cables make no difference' brigade is obviously VERY wrong.
3) Some folk are fibbing because they have an agenda, and are also prone to hyperbole.
4) Systems which respond so dramatically, negatively or positively to cable changes, are likely to have some serious issues elsewhere responsible for causing such a dramatic effect.
It's worth remembering I've only said that the Gothams are the best interconnects I've heard so far in my system (i.e. to my ears they have the least audible 'sonic signature'). I have made no grandiose claims as to their performance, how they have 'magically transformed' my system, or that there was a massive difference between them and the cables they've replaced.
Marco.
Lol... What is there to say when your experience is so diametrically opposed to mine? If they'd sounded like that in my system, they'd have been put in the bin!
Marco [currently sitting listening to Nick Drake, swamped in coloration, through his peaky and unsophisticated sounding hi-fi system].
:lol:
Aha, that's what it is! I need to play Nick Drake :doh:
Interesting, isn't it, how one can go from what you've reported above, along with quite a few others here (and my own views on the Gothams), to how, for example, Frank has described their sound?
Therefore, IMO, these diametrically opposed views raise the following possibilities:
1) The sonic performance of interconnect cables *truly* is massively system dependent.
2) The 'cables make no difference' brigade is obviously VERY wrong.
3) Some folk are fibbing because they have an agenda.
4) Systems which respond so dramatically, negatively or positively to cable changes, are likely to have some serious issues elsewhere responsible for causing such a dramatic effect.
It's worth remembering I've only said that the Gothams are the best interconnects I've heard so far in my system (i.e. to my ears they have the least audible 'sonic signature'). I have made no grandiose claims as to their performance, how they have 'magically transformed' my system, or that there was a massive difference between them and the cables they've replaced.
Marco.
I think Marco the cable is system dependant. I believe this is the most likely reason there are disparaging views regarding its performance.
This is a useful finding or confirmation in itself.
I tried it with a different system last night and got a different result.
I think Marco the cable is system dependant. I believe this is the most likely reason there are disparaging views regarding its performance.
This is a useful finding or confirmation in itself.
I tried it with a different system last night and got a different result.
Hi Jim,
I agree very much with the part highlighted - indeed I've found some of the views here rather enlightening! ;)
However, whilst I wholeheartedly agree that the sonic results cables produce are system dependent, whenever I've experimented in the past with interconnect cables, I've never heard the truly 'night & day' differences in sound being reported here - and that's with using all sorts of different equipment, over the last 30-odd years.
Marco.
brian2957
09-05-2014, 14:43
Yup agree Joe . Once I re-terminated the Gothams I achieved a worthwhile improvement with these cables in my system . Enough for me to say that they will be staying put. Pretty good for just over 30 quid IMHO .
I have also tried the Gothams in the wife's little TEAC system and it's not much different overall to it being in my own system, except the bass was a lot muddier - the TEAC's fault not the cables. The real shock came though when I unplugged the cables that were already in there. No wonder I couldn't find the Hitachi ones when I was hunting for them, they were plugged in there all the time :lol:
Next up will be the valve system
I would really like to hear how these compare to Sound Cords and Super Sound Cords.
The sound cords work out at about £20 posted for a 1m pair. My SSC sounds really good in my system, and other have reported good things about the SC.
I guess the only way to do that is to order one. :eek:
More parcels....
Interesting, isn't it, how one can go from what you've reported above, along with quite a few others here (and my own views on the Gothams), to how, for example, Frank has described their sound?
Therefore, IMO, these diametrically opposed views raise the following possibilities:
1) The sonic performance of interconnect cables *truly* is massively system dependent.
2) The 'cables make no difference' brigade is obviously VERY wrong.
3) Some folk are fibbing because they have an agenda, and are also prone to hyperbole.
4) Systems which respond so dramatically, negatively or positively to cable changes, are likely to have some serious issues elsewhere responsible for causing such a dramatic effect.
Clearly 1) is correct, plus:
5) People like different types of sonic presentation, so an improvement for one person will be a deteroration for another.
Clearly 1) is correct, plus:
5) People like different types of sonic presentation, so an improvement for one person will be a deteroration for another.
Of course I agree with 5) [thanks for adding it in], but in terms of 1), if this really is true, and to such a large degree, surely this must finally put to bed any claims made by 'objectivists' that cables cannot make any sonic difference...?
Marco.
Of course I agree with 5) [thanks for adding it in], but in terms of 1), if this really is true, and to such a large degree, surely this must finally put to bed any claims made by 'objectivists' that cables cannot make any sonic difference...?
Marco.
I hesitate to speak on behalf of objectivists, but my understanding is that what they say is that there should be little or no discernable differences between properly designed cables, and that therefore any which sound 'different' are not properly designed. If my understanding is correct, this is actually not far from your own view that cables should not add or take away information, but should be transparent carriers of signals.
Personally I'm quite relieved to have moved from a system requiring five sets of interconnects to a system requiring only one. Much less scope for faffing about and for audio nervosa!
In the essence of AOS I think this is great as I reckon Marco is being true to the meaning of this forum. Being artistic whilst not being sold to with a professional choice of cable which has more positive accountable provenance (where the sound matters the most, in the control room) to it than the majority of audiofool cables and to which I believe will make some stonking:-
No nonsense
Chaff free
Fluff free
VFM
No secrets
...cables. And giving some people a real find VFM wise even in stock form.
Everyone's happy. :)
Sorry Joe, I have read and re-read the second sentence three times now, and can't understand what it is you are trying to say.
If you are saying that it is right to encourage members to seek out those cables used in the recording and broadcast profession, and to experiment with fitting connectors of good quality in order to achieve the properties you list - then I would agree with you.
I hesitate to speak on behalf of objectivists, but my understanding is that what they say is that there should be little or no discernable differences between properly designed cables, and that therefore any which sound 'different' are not properly designed. If my understanding is correct, this is actually not far from your own view that cables should not add or take away information, but should be transparent carriers of signals.
Personally I'm quite relieved to have moved from a system requiring five sets of interconnects to a system requiring only one. Much less scope for faffing about and for audio nervosa!
I would agree. In fact I would go so far as to say, that in my opinion, if changing cables makes such a large difference to the sound quality of one's system, then there is something fundamentally wrong with both the cable and the items between which it connects.
pitadavespa
09-05-2014, 16:56
I believe the main thing in cables is it's architecture, rather than the materials (as long as they have minimum quality).
I also believe that some systems handle "bad designed" cables better than another.
So, to me, it'd make sense to change 1) to:
1) The sonic performance of some systems is more cable dependent than others.
Maybe this isn't very well written (English is not may main language), but I guess you understand what I mean. ;)
--
Luis
Does that include the forum reports others and I have posted, expressing our delight at how good they sound, or are you simply focussing on the negatives? ;)
Like I said before, Mark, I don't expect you to prefer them to your usual choices.
Marco.
I was just struck by the most recent AoS comments which were rather negative - and was suffering from heavy workload blues. The weekend now and I've remembered to bring them home :).
With regard to my not liking them, I don't see why I shouldn't (I'm afraid I'm not aware of you saying that before)? If they sound good I can easily change the plugs for my preferred ones (take them off my current IC) and would be happy to do so).
Of course I agree with 5) [thanks for adding it in], but in terms of 1), if this really is true, and to such a large degree, surely this must finally put to bed any claims made by 'objectivists' that cables cannot make any sonic difference...?
Marco.
I think the 'official' position is that there should be no difference between properly designed cables and if a cable does change the sound even if it makes things sound better then it is adding colouration and is therefore undesirable.
Perhaps someone here who is also amember on Wigwam can ask Serge?
The Black Adder
09-05-2014, 17:19
Sorry Joe, I have read and re-read the second sentence three times now, and can't understand what it is you are trying to say.
If you are saying that it is right to encourage members to seek out those cables used in the recording and broadcast profession, and to experiment with fitting connectors of good quality in order to achieve the properties you list - then I would agree with you.
Hmm... yes. I can see how you are reading that... lol, my fault. Sorry matey/all for the confusion.
We seem to agree anyway.. lol... professional cable is generally cheap to buy and can be used perfectly in hifi as well as in the studio so experimenting with a different and more precision made plugs is a great thing to try. The cable is made for professionals using top end kit in their studio so why not give it a go.
Wakefield Turntables
09-05-2014, 17:34
ok, we have 34 pages of thread, exactly which Gotham cable have you lot been trying out, I might order a pair for my Sansui amp for a bit of a laugh.
34 pages of thread, and the cable being talked about didn't even appear on my list.
Gotham Ultra Pro - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1M-Gotham-GAC-1-Ultra-Pro-stereo-interconnect-set-/380316547665?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item588ca1fa51
:facepull:
pitadavespa
09-05-2014, 17:56
I think the 'official' position is that there should be no difference between properly designed cables and if a cable does change the sound even if it makes things sound better then it is adding colouration and is therefore undesirable.
Perhaps someone here who is also amember on Wigwam can ask Serge?
Hi Martin,
I'm pretty new here and (I guess) pretty young in terms of hifi knowledge comparing to some of you; also, I can't read the entire forum before expressing my opinions, so I have to take the chance and risk "emending" someone like you, or others, when, probably, you reached my conclusions/opinions years ago. But...
A cable doesn't ever add anything, it only can take. It can add coloring, but because it takes something.
Examples:
- when a cable highlights voices, it's probably removing some higher frequencies, giving the impression that medium-high frequencies are more alive;
- or when a cable "gives" more bass, it is probably just because it's rolling off the higher frequencies.
- other times, when a cable does not roll off the higher frequencies, letting them all pass, some say it smooths (removes some harsh) the treble. Why? Because it doesn't cut the higher frequencies.
I don't give the example of the interconnect reducing bass, because I believe it's very difficult for it to do it, unless it is very poorly designed. It has, I think, more effect on the treble.
The best interconnect cables I tried, and I have them around 4 years, are Atlas Titan All Cu and Atlas Navigator All Cu.
They're very well constructed, have excellent isolation and are (still) low capacitance. And this, capacitance, I believe is very important in interconnects.
--
Luis
Wakefield Turntables
09-05-2014, 18:06
34 pages of thread, and the cable being talked about didn't even appear on my list.
Gotham Ultra Pro - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1M-Gotham-GAC-1-Ultra-Pro-stereo-interconnect-set-/380316547665?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item588ca1fa51
:facepull:
Thanks mate! ;)
I reckon Marco has bought shares in the company. :eek:
I'm a member of the Wam but don't post much there. I'm afraid I've no interest in asking Serge his opinion on cables either.
Hi Martin,
I'm pretty new here and (I guess) pretty young in terms of hifi knowledge comparing to some of you; also, I can't read the entire forum before expressing my opinions, so I have to take the chance and risk "emending" someone like you, or others, when, probably, you reached my conclusions/opinions years ago. But...
A cable doesn't ever add anything, it only can take. It can add coloring, but because it takes something.
Examples:
- when a cable highlights voices, it's probably removing some higher frequencies, giving the impression that medium-high frequencies are more alive;
- or when a cable "gives" more bass, it is probably just because it's rolling off the higher frequencies.
- other times, when a cable does not roll off the higher frequencies, letting them all pass, some say it smooths (removes some harsh) the treble. Why? Because it doesn't cut the higher frequencies.
I don't give the example of the interconnect reducing bass, because I believe it's very difficult for it to do it, unless it is very poorly designed. It has, I think, more effect on the treble.
The best interconnect cables I tried, and I have them around 4 years, are Atlas Titan All Cu and Atlas Navigator All Cu.
They're very well constructed, have excellent isolation and are (still) low capacitance. And this, capacitance, I believe is very important in interconnects.
--
Luis
Luis that is all fair comment as far as I am concerned you probably understand the tecnicalaties a lot beyter than I do.
I'm a member of the Wam but don't post much there. I'm afraid I've no interest in asking Serge his opinion on cables either.
That was meant to be tongue in cheek, Mark. :)
Ali Tait
09-05-2014, 19:58
Luis that is all fair comment as far as I am concerned you probably understand the tecnicalaties a lot beyter than I do.
And he can spell better. :D
And he can spell better. :D
I'm on my phone it's not easy to type on these bloody things and its even harder to go back and fix typos. :)
Ali Tait
09-05-2014, 20:09
Any bludy excoose..
Mr Kipling
09-05-2014, 20:33
Clearly 1) is correct, plus:
5) People like different types of sonic presentation, so an improvement for one person will be a deteroration for another.
I don't know… Thirty-odd years ago when the great Solid-Core V Multi-Strand war raged there was a general consensous as to what solid-core did and it did the same general thing irrespective of the system it was used in. And the main thing people reported on using solid-core, was a lack of hf "hash".
Ninanina
09-05-2014, 21:51
I have received the Gotham GAC-1 Ultra Pro to try and will report my findings once I've got a handle on their sound :)
In fact I would go so far as to say, that in my opinion, if changing cables makes such a large difference to the sound quality of one's system, then there is something fundamentally wrong with both the cable and the items between which it connects.
Hear, hear... Indeed! ;)
I shall comment tomorrow on some of the most recent posts that have been made. But right now it's.... :goodnight:
Marco.
Ninanina
09-05-2014, 22:50
My initial thoughts on the Gotham are that for the money they are superb but with the following short falls in my system
1) They lack emotion... They kind of 'get on with the job in hand' but lack what I am used to in the 'feeling and emotion' of the music
2) They are rather 'flat' sounding. I am not very good at explaining what I hear but 'flat and clinical' is the best way I can describe the Gotham cable
Do I think they are good value for money?? well at £20 yes of course exceptional value for money but every other cable I have beat's it in the 'emotional and naturalness' of the music
I currently have interconnects ranging from £20 (the Gotham's), to another at £100, one at £220, one at £320 and another at £500 and while I think, at £20, the Gotham is good it's just not good enough in my system I'm afraid
It may be that my system is very revealing and certainly the Klipsch Heresy's are VERY revealing indeed
While I can imagine that in some systems the Gothams would represent excellent value for money at £20 and be 'good enough' in my system they just don't cut it I'm afraid
That's my honest opinion and I hope it helps some that are considering this new 'wonder' cable ....... ;)
pitadavespa
09-05-2014, 23:39
My initial thoughts on the Gotham are that for the money they are superb but with the following short falls in my system
1) They lack emotion... They kind of 'get on with the job in hand' but lack what I am used to in the 'feeling and emotion' of the music
2) They are rather 'flat' sounding. I am not very good at explaining what I hear but 'flat and clinical' is the best way I can describe the Gotham cable
Do I think they are good value for money?? well at £20 yes of course exceptional value for money but every other cable I have beat's it in the 'emotional and naturalness' of the music
I currently have interconnects ranging from £20 (the Gotham's), to another at £100, one at £220, one at £320 and another at £500 and while I think, at £20, the Gotham is good it's just not good enough in my system I'm afraid
It may be that my system is very revealing and certainly the Klipsch Heresy's are VERY revealing indeed
While I can imagine that in some systems the Gothams would represent excellent value for money at £20 and be 'good enough' in my system they just don't cut it I'm afraid
That's my honest opinion and I hope it helps some that are considering this new 'wonder' cable ....... ;)
Hi TheMostHonestPersonYouWillMeet, :D
To me, that seems just good things. ;)
Ninanina
09-05-2014, 23:46
Hi TheMostHonestPersonYouWillMeet, :D
To me, that seems just good things. ;)
Well that is your interpretation but they are certainly NOT keepers as far as I am concerned
I'm not sure mine are keepers either but was it really necessary to start a separate thread about them? :scratch:
Ninanina
10-05-2014, 00:14
I'm not sure mine are keepers either but was it really necessary to start a separate thread about them? :scratch:
Maybe not .... what do I know?
If that thread is cancelled then that's no problem as far as I'm concerned....
Anything for an easy and peaceful life.... ;);)
The Black Adder
10-05-2014, 07:29
:rolleyes: Right.... I give up and so this is my last post on this thread.
Well that is your interpretation but they are certainly NOT keepers as far as I am concerned...
I think that Luis's interpretation of "flat sounding" means neutral/devoid of character, which *is* a good thing (and it's what I'm hearing in my system, with the Gothams), but I know that's not what you meant! :)
Marco.
I'm not sure mine are keepers either...
Mine might not be either. See here, from post #23 onwards: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32257-Van-Damme-Silver-Series-Interconnect/page3
This exercise was always about trying different 'studio/broadcast quality' cables (not those from normal hi-fi manufacturers), and identifying which ones I liked best and were thus most suitable for fitting with my chosen Furutech plugs, in order to create a pair of interconnects, for around £200, which could compete with ones costing far in excess of that amount.
I've always enjoyed applying that 'high SPPV' approach throughout my system - not just with cables, and to date, have achieved great success with it :)
The Gothams are excellent, but the Van Damme 'Whites' have edged ahead, having just that bit more detail and clarity, and so they offer a subtle but worthwhile improvement. We'll see what the VD 'Blacks' bring to the party when they arrive, and then a decision will be made as to which cables receive the Furutech treatment! :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
10-05-2014, 08:51
I also collect some RFC Mercury i/c from Paul on Tuesday.
Will they really knock the Pluto2 off of their 'most favoured' slot at Jerry Towers? :scratch:
Yep, they darn well did.
I'm gonna have to introduce a new quality scale - iirc Martin Colloms did the same - started assigning marks out of 10 - kit quality over time improved and he is now well into the hundreds for his top marks! :lol:
I tried the Pluto, and I bought the Mercury.
The mercury allow more detail, focus and transparency to flow to the end user in comparison to the Pluto.
True.
The Pluto2 have what might be called "youthful enthusiasm" - full of get up & go, and joie de vivre. Which I enjoy a lot and will suit many folks and many systems well.
But ultimately, the Mercury2 is a better cable that lets more of the music through.
Both better the standard-plugged Gotham UPs easily, imho.
It will be most interesting to hear what up-plugging the Goths will do. :popcorn:
The Black Adder
10-05-2014, 09:13
lol... sorry, just had to post this..
You were lucky, Marco... the robbing b@rstools are now selling them at £499 per set as before they were £15 per set
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50cm-Van-Damme-Interconnect-Cable-Hi-Res-Low-Loss-LCOFC-Gold-plated-Phono-RCA-/131183526528?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item1e8b25c280
People... don't. I know they are expensive and some here think expensive has to be better but please... don't... I beg you.
I plugged your exact set of Mercury's into my ears at Paul's Jerry. Sounded great - like being by the sea.
Best give them a clean:)
Thread posts moved to here.
The Black Adder
10-05-2014, 09:22
Rule number one of hifi forums: anyone posting 'this is my final post in this thread' will post something else in that thread within an hour or so.
Yeah but, I'm The Sweeney, son... and I haven't had any dinner... Shat it!... :lol:
It will be most interesting to hear what up-plugging the Goths will do. :popcorn:
...if in the end they deserve that treatment. The VD Blacks or Whites might get that honour instead! ;)
Marco.
Rule number one of hifi forums: anyone posting 'this is my final post in this thread' will post something else in that thread within an hour or so.
Rule number Two of hifi forums: 'The Flounce/Return Rule' : 'The speed of the Return is directly proportionate to the magnitude of the Flounce'
jandl100
10-05-2014, 09:29
I plugged your exact set of Mercury's into my ears at Paul's Jerry. Sounded great - like being by the sea.
Best give them a clean:)
Urk :spew: - why didn't Paul tell me? - I thought it was special audiophile Fairy Grease to make them sound good.
jandl100
10-05-2014, 09:31
...if in the end they deserve that treatment. The VD Blacks or Whites might get that honour instead! ;)
Marco.
Yay - the Cheap Cable Fest gains momentum! :yay:
Up-Plug 'em all. :thumbsup:
Yeah but, I'm The Sweeney, son... and I haven't had any dinner... Shat it!... :lol:
...and get your pants on, your knicked!
Seriously, I'm glad I've done the cable thing.
If I could get all the interconnects I'd bought and tried on a whim over the years and sold them all off , I could buy a new amp!
Beware the carrier bag full of unused cables! :doh:
Beware the carrier bag full of unused cables! :doh:
I've got three of those, and that's after giving away a shedload!
lol... sorry, just had to post this..
You were lucky, Marco... the robbing b@rstools are now selling them at £499 per set as before they were £15 per set
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50cm-Van-Damme-Interconnect-Cable-Hi-Res-Low-Loss-LCOFC-Gold-plated-Phono-RCA-/131183526528?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item1e8b25c280
People... don't. I know they are expensive and some here think expensive has to be better but please... don't... I beg you.
S'ok, dude. There's nothing underhand going on. I've been in touch with the seller, and his reply was thus: "I am sold out on the van Damme white cables at the moment. the £499 listing is a placeholder but I do not think there will be more."
Effectively, he's put a ridiculously high price on them, to stop anyone ordering the cables until (or if) he receives any more stock.
During our exchange, it became apparent that the Whites are a bit 'special' (in comparison with other cables in the Van Damme range). I believe that they were NOS, supplied to Abbey Road Studios, which he had a limited stock of, all of which has now been sold.
I can certainly hear something about these cables which is a bit special, however, we shall see what the VD Ultra Blacks do in comparison! :)
Marco.
Rule number Two of hifi forums: 'The Flounce/Return Rule' : 'The speed of the Return is directly proportionate to the magnitude of the Flounce'
:lolsign:
Marco.
Beware the carrier bag full of unused cables! :doh:
When you're dealing with stuff that costs £16 or £20 a pop, dude, it's not an issue... ;)
Besides, when this experiment is over, the 'reject' cables will be offered to hard-up AoS members at my usual give-away prices, so everyone wins! :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
10-05-2014, 10:02
S'ok, dude. There's nothing underhand going on. I've been in touch with the seller, and his reply was thus: "I am sold out on the van Damme white cables at the moment. the £499 listing is a placeholder but I do not think there will be more."
Effectively, he's put a ridiculously high price on them, to stop anyone ordering the cables until (or if) he receives any more stock.
During our exchange, it became apparent that the Whites are a bit 'special' (in comparison with other cables in the Van Damme range). I believe that they were NOS, supplied to Abbey Road Studios, which he had a limited stock of, all of which has now been sold.
I can certainly hear something about these cables which is a bit special, however, we shall see what the VD Ultra Blacks do in comparison! :)
Marco.
Ahh... righto!
lol... :cool:
When you're dealing with stuff that costs £16 or £20 a pop, dude, it's not an issue... ;)
Besides, when this experiment is over, the 'reject' cables will be offered to hard-up AoS members at my usual give-away prices, so everyone wins! :)
Marco.
Absolutely mate, its always good to try these things.
Doesn't cost a lot and potentially a pocketmoney upgrade.
That's why AOS get-together's are so good I think?
Gives us a chance to hear these things in our own systems AND get some strawberry tarts in to boot! :)
(hint hint...!)
Ali Tait
10-05-2014, 13:04
Up for a meet mate? :D
pitadavespa
10-05-2014, 14:21
I think that Luis's interpretation of "flat sounding" means neutral/devoid of character, which *is* a good thing (and it's what I'm hearing in my system, with the Gothams), but I know that's not what you meant! :)
Marco.
Exactly.
icehockeyboy
10-05-2014, 15:32
Hold fire a minute guys........I've just been told by a dealer that the Van Damme Whites, are a totally different ic to the LC-OFC jobs at the don't buy any at £499 price.
One thing that is instantly different is the LCOFC are 75 ohm, and the Whites are not.
Hmmmmm......:scratch:
Hold fire a minute guys........I've just been told by a dealer that the Van Damme Whites, are a totally different ic to the LC-OFC jobs at the don't buy any at £499 price.
One thing that is instantly different is the LCOFC are 75 ohm, and the Whites are not.
Hmmmmm......:scratch:
...which will make no difference to an analogue signal. It won't care.
Techno Commander
10-05-2014, 17:21
lol... sorry, just had to post this..
You were lucky, Marco... the robbing b@rstools are now selling them at £499 per set as before they were £15 per set
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50cm-Van-Damme-Interconnect-Cable-Hi-Res-Low-Loss-LCOFC-Gold-plated-Phono-RCA-/131183526528?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item1e8b25c280
People... don't. I know they are expensive and some here think expensive has to be better but please... don't... I beg you.
Look at the part number on the cable, and compare with the part number here (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/analogue-video/single-coaxial-cable/van-damme-standard-75-ohm-coax/van-damme-plasma-grade-standard-coax-cream-per-metre/).
icehockeyboy
10-05-2014, 17:23
...which will make no difference to an analogue signal. It won't care.
I appreciate that, I was pointing it out to show there is a difference to the Van Damme's that I believed were the 'White' ones.
icehockeyboy
10-05-2014, 17:27
Look at the part number on the cable, and compare with the part number here (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/analogue-video/single-coaxial-cable/van-damme-standard-75-ohm-coax/van-damme-plasma-grade-standard-coax-cream-per-metre/).
Can't get to mine to check. But it does say video and 75ohm on them, and the dealer I spoke to said the 'real' White ones use the top instrument cable which isn't that impedance.
I appreciate that, I was pointing it out to show there is a difference to the Van Damme's that I believed were the 'White' ones.
;)
Hold fire a minute guys........I've just been told by a dealer that the Van Damme Whites, are a totally different ic to the LC-OFC jobs at the don't buy any at £499 price.
One thing that is instantly different is the LCOFC are 75 ohm, and the Whites are not.
Hmmmmm......:scratch:
Er, I beg to differ, observe what it says written on them:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/clz7.jpg
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131182144538
I can spy "75 Ohm", can you? ;)
Not, as Paul says, that makes an iota of difference. It's certainly not responsible for why I like how they sound.
Marco.
Can't get to mine to check. But it does say video and 75ohm on them, and the dealer I spoke to said the 'real' White ones use the top instrument cable which isn't that impedance.
Sorry, but the dealer is talking pish. The ones featuring the instrument cable are the Ultra Blacks I've ordered. Check out the info on the listing:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/380897353851?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
This cable uses Van Damme's high quality instrument cable as used in recording studios...
;)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
10-05-2014, 18:50
Er, I beg to differ, observe what it says written on them:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/clz7.jpg
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131182144538
I can spy "75 Ohm", can you? ;)
Not, as Paul says, that makes an iota of difference. It's certainly not responsible for why I like how they sound.
Marco.
These are the ones I have.
But the 'real' VD Whites are different, and dearer.
And the Ultra Whites, are below them in the picture in the link.
I suspect the black and whites are different only in colour, but i stick go my original thought that the oneswe currently have are not what have been referred to as white.
I hope that makes sense! :)
Techno Commander
10-05-2014, 19:10
Do a search on the part number printed on the cable. Should pin point exactly what cable it is.
This (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-white-per-metre/) is the "Ultra" cable
These are the ones I have.
But the 'real' VD Whites are different, and dearer.
And the Ultra Whites, are below them in the picture in the link.
I suspect the black and whites are different only in colour, but i stick go my original thought that the oneswe currently have are not what have been referred to as white.
I hope that makes sense! :)
Not really, but we'll leave it there before I lose the will to live! :lol:
All I know is that the VD 'Whites' I'm using sound superb (even better than the Gothams), and that the Ultra-Blacks I've ordered feature the instrument cable, as discussed. In due course, we'll see which ones end up sounding best overall.
Marco.
Do a search on the part number printed on the cable. Should pin point exactly what cable it is.
This (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-white-per-metre/) is the "Ultra" cable
Hi Andy,
Yup - that's the exact same cable as the Ultra-Blacks I've ordered, only in white :)
The only difference between either the Ultra-Blacks or Ultra-Whites, and the "75 Ohm" Whites Craig and I currently have, is that the former have silver plated conductors.
Marco.
Techno Commander
10-05-2014, 19:38
I believe the quality of VD cable makes a mockery of many hi-fi cables. I agree its not the best, but it is bloody good and as value for money, it takes some beating. Its cheap enough to buy 10m and fit your own plugs to.
These look interesting (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4Pc-USA-LT-Pure-Copper-Rhodium-Plated-Carbon-Fiber-RCA-Plug-Connector-HI-END-/331016998934)
Indeed they do. Looks like a copy of the Furutech plugs :)
I agree with your sentiments about Van Damme.
Marco.
...and the circle keeps on turnin.
honestly, find what works for you and stick by it.
Spend some money wisely, buy budget, if not, spend some more.
(and if SERIOUSLY in doubt, check Marco's AOS signature :) (Ignore the vinyl bit)
...and the circle keeps on turnin.
honestly, find what works for you and stick by it.
Spend some money wisely, buy budget, if not, spend some more.
(and if SERIOUSLY in doubt, check Marco's AOS signature :) (Ignore the vinyl bit)
I refuse to read anything in Comic Sans.
Joe, you are truly the FONT of all knowledge! :eyebrows:
Marco.
There is a lot of reference to these cables being used in recording studios. But the reality is that although they are used in many recording studios, many studios do not consider cables to be very important - as long as they fulfil the basic electrical requirements - as long as the cable physically works that is all that matters; it's not uncommon for gear to be connected with a big real of cable with most of it still on the reel (effectively forming an inductor). Of course there are studios that think cables are 'important' sonically - they tend to use a wide range of exotic hi-fi style cables (in fact I went to a presentation not long ago where a cable was being promoted as being affiliated with a particular recording studio). Also, studios are as much a victim of fashion as audio enthusiasts can be - they have to be seen to being competitive with their competitors, they have an annual budget to spend... Etc. I even own speakers that genuinely were used in recording studios (probably still are in some) but it doesn't mean a whole lot in absolute terms - just being associated with studio use means nothing.
icehockeyboy
11-05-2014, 00:23
Hi Andy,
Yup - that's the exact same cable as the Ultra-Blacks I've ordered, only in white :)
The only difference between either the Ultra-Blacks or Ultra-Whites, and the "75 Ohm" Whites Craig and I currently have, is that the former have silver plated conductors.
Marco.
Isn't that what I've implied all along by saying the 'White Van Dammes you and Ai currently have are different to the other, slightly dearer 'Whites' (and Blacks! ). :)
Kind of, but we'll leave it there and get back to discussing issues relating to audio performance. As soon as the VD Ultra-Blacks arrive, I'll let you know where their performance sits in the current hierarchy :)
Marco.
Hi Mark,
There is a lot of reference to these cables being used in recording studios. But the reality is that although they are used in many recording studios, many studios do not consider cables to be very important - as long as they fulfil the basic electrical requirements - as long as the cable physically works that is all that matters; it's not uncommon for gear to be connected with a big real of cable with most of it still on the reel (effectively forming an inductor). Of course there are studios that think cables are 'important' sonically - they tend to use a wide range of exotic hi-fi style cables (in fact I went to a presentation not long ago where a cable was being promoted as being affiliated with a particular recording studio). Also, studios are as much a victim of fashion as audio enthusiasts can be - they have to be seen to being competitive with their competitors, they have an annual budget to spend... Etc. I even own speakers that genuinely were used in recording studios (probably still are in some) but it doesn't mean a whole lot in absolute terms - just being associated with studio use means nothing.
Agreed. However, one could also argue that if those cables were involved in the process of producing some truly superb recordings at world famous recording studios (which they were), then they can't be holding things back too much... ;)
Regardless, with cables, just like anything else in audio, it's a case of 'whatever works, works' - and currently, I'm having great success with a variety of 'studio quality' cables in my system, which sound better than any 'audiophile grade' cables I've ever used, at a fraction of the price.
I believe that's what is referred to as a 'win-win'.... :)
Marco [Who also owns speakers that were genuinely used in recording studios - two pairs of such, in fact].
I believe the quality of VD cable makes a mockery of many hi-fi cables. I agree its not the best, but it is bloody good and as value for money, it takes some beating. Its cheap enough to buy 10m and fit your own plugs to.
These look interesting (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4Pc-USA-LT-Pure-Copper-Rhodium-Plated-Carbon-Fiber-RCA-Plug-Connector-HI-END-/331016998934)
I have just ordered a set to make up my first "high end" DIY cable.
icehockeyboy
11-05-2014, 09:00
Kind of, but we'll leave it there and get back to discussing issues relating to audio performance. As soon as the VD Ultra-Blacks arrive, I'll let you know where their performance sits in the current hierarchy :)
Marco.
I wonder if mine, the white versions will arrive sooner than yours? :)
Hi Mark,
Agreed. However, one could also argue that if those cables were involved in the process of producing some truly superb recordings at world famous recording studios (which they were), then they can't be holding things back too much... ;)
Regardless, with cables, just like anything else in audio, it's a case of 'whatever works, works' - and currently, I'm having great success with a variety of 'studio quality' cables in my system, which sound better than any 'audiophile grade' cables I've ever used, at a fraction of the price.
I believe that's what is referred to as a 'win-win'.... :)
Marco [Who also owns speakers that were genuinely used in recording studios - two pairs of such, in fact].
I suppose you could, but one could also postulate that those recordings would have sounded even better if they had used better cabling, the logic is just as sound (or flawed). If an artist paints a great painting one could say that the ancillary equipment used (paint, brushes, canvas etc.) must also be the finest because it allowed their talent to flow freely - it's pretty tenuous though...
Lots of people own 'studio monitor' speakers (studios do like to chop and change a lot). My point was that my somewhat dismissive opinion of studio grade cabling was not based on a general 'anti-studio' stance - as shown by my use of 'monitor' speakers.
Anyway, what with one thing and another, I haven't yet listened to my shiny new Gotham cable - but as lunch is preparing, I shall go for a listen right now :).
Indeed... You raise some good points, which I'll get to after lunch :)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
11-05-2014, 12:04
Agreed on the studio monitor point.
A friend who is a studio engineer was in earshot as Robert Plant commented on a set of Yamaha speakers so many people here hold in reverence.
He called them crap.
It been an interesting few days, I'm glad I tried the Gotham cables they have sparked my curiosity. I'm waiting on two cut lengths of the Van Damme cable now, one of which is the lo-cap silver series coax cable.
While I'm waiting I had a rummage in the loft and found a bunch of forgotten interconnects , mostly DIY cables but lurking in there a set of Kimber Silver Streak cables. Not a cheap cable and I'm unsure why I put them with the other cast offs but my system is very different now to when I bought them....anyhow long storey short they are in my system and are by far the best I've tried, better even than the Chords, more open and detailed.
The Gotham's sound quite noticeably 'closed in' in comparison. The Kimbers measure just 55pf for 1m and are plaited unshielded...the Silver Van Dammes also measure 55pf but are shielded so it will be an interesting comparison.
We'll I have now had an initial listen to the Gotham cable and I must say I'm very pleasantly surprised. They don't sound closed in to me. Detail retrieval is good and they have a very subtle way at communicating that detail to you. Leading edges sound less etched than on my regular cable (perhaps that is what some are hearing when posting negative comments) but it's all there. I've got to listen to more records but, as of now, I like them. Will they replace my current cable - perhaps they will, I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
Do you know what I find both fascinating and baffling, is that amongst all these cable threads (and the angst that seems to have gone with them) I have noted the number of interconnects that some people have tried and I think to myself "Some of those guys have tried more cables in the last month, than I have owned in over 40 years of enjoying music" I'm not sure if that makes me a numpty (probably), a realist or somebody in-between? I sure as heck don't understand it, but hey each to their own. I prefer to listen to music and buy music instead of cables, but that's just me.
I can't help but feeling though, that some folk are getting themselves tied up in knots and actually creating an artificial dissatisfaction for themselves, especially if they treat the matter so seriously? :scratch: Getting the balance right is a tricky one I guess, but I'm really glad I don't feel the need to join in - but its fun to read though folks, so work away.
Now where's that link to the Gotham cables, oh hang on a minute its TQ, no Belkin, no SLIC ahh here we are then Van Damme, I know them, good solid and dependable stuff . . . maybe I'll just make my own and be done with it!
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/chasing-tail.gif (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/chasing-tail.gif.html)
My heads hurting now so I think I'll just play some Muddy Waters instead ;)
(by the way my interconnect cables are Mark Grant and Rega Couple 'Klotz' and I have Van Damme speaker cables)
We'll I have now had an initial listen to the Gotham cable and I must say I'm very pleasantly surprised. They don't sound closed in to me. Detail retrieval is good and they have a very subtle way at communicating that detail to you. Leading edges sound less etched than on my regular cable (perhaps that is what some are hearing when posting negative comments) but it's all there.
Are you secretly listening inside my room? ;)
Marco.
I'm not really on the same page regarding the neutrality aspect though - but only because none of us really know what neutral really sounds like.
Sure, and that's fine.
I do think, though, that a lot of the negative comments I've read about the Gothams say more about the systems the cables were used in than the cables themselves (and also any agendas the users may have for expressing a negative opinion)...
It also, for me, provides an interesting insight into whose ears on here, were it necessary, I would be most inclined to trust ;)
Marco.
It also, for me, provides an interesting insight into whose ears on here, were it necessary, I would be most inclined to trust ;)
I wouldn't be inclined to trust anyone's ears but my own, because they're the only ones connected to my brain.
jandl100
11-05-2014, 16:16
Sure, and that's fine.
I do think, though, that a lot of the negative comments I've read about the Gothams say more about the systems the cables were used in than the cables themselves (and also any agendas the users may have for expressing a negative opinion)...
It also, for me, provides an interesting insight into whose ears on here, were it necessary, I would be most inclined to trust ;)
Marco.
:lol: Tannoy Boy - I wouldn't trust any of my opinions if I were you, we are clearly on entirely different wavelengths. ;)
But seriously, before rushing to judgement you really do need to sample an example of a cable that I find beats the Goths by a large margin so that we are talking about the same thing and making the same comparisons. :exactly:
My kind and generous offer of a loaner remains open. :)
I haven't made any judgement, Jerry. It's just something I feel may contain an element of truth. Anyway, apart from Tannoys and graphic equalisers :eek:), there have been quite a few areas in audio where we've reached consensus, so our views aren't always so different.
Anyway, feel free to send me any cables you want, and as ever, I'll offer you my honest opinion of them :)
The funny thing about all this cable makarkey is that folk (for some reason) have rushed out to try the Gothams before I've had a chance to listen to some alternatives, and come to a conclusion about which of the 'studio-quality' cables I'm auditioning, IMO, are best.
The Van Damme Whites or Blacks may win yet, making the Gothams redundant, before the REAL FUN begins, when the winner gets fitted with some sexy Furutech plugs. Given what I'm hearing at the moment, in my system, with the stock cables, any further sonic improvement brought about by a plug upgrade is going to be rather exciting!
:exactly:
Marco.
jandl100
11-05-2014, 17:39
OK, Marco, I'll get some off to you in the next couple of days. :)
No problemo :thumbsup:
Marco.
I'm not really on the same page regarding the neutrality aspect though - but only because none of us really know what neutral really sounds like.
I really wish this would be given more serious consideration. So much has been said about 'adding and taking away'; 'not adding anything'; 'neutrality' etc in relation to employing a particular cable in a particular system. To me this only means ' in comparison to whatever cable X I have used in the past.' As far as I know none of us have our separates hard wired together and cannot possibly know what neutrality is...
I agree, that is what it also means to me and, as such, is a continually sliding scale rather than an absolute.
There is another aspect to all of this that I find interesting, and that refers to the question of system synergy and how interconnects may fit within this. Now what does seem to be true is that some people come to diametrically polar views with respect to how a cable 'sounds' - but is this down to differences in perception, differences in describing that perception or is it down to differences in system synergy? Unfortunately, I haven't done sufficient comparisons in different systems to postulate an answer. However, what I can say is that the last time I compared interconnect cables in my system I was using a different phonostage, different speakers and a slightly different pre-amp - yet the cable comparisons I have carried out yesterday and today have led me to very much the same conclusions I arrived at back then. Despite my system having experienced some significant changes the cable synergy (or lack of) does not seem to have been altered.
I really wish this would be given more serious consideration. So much has been said about 'adding and taking away'; 'not adding anything'; 'neutrality' etc in relation to employing a particular cable in a particular system. To me this only means ' in comparison to whatever cable X I have used in the past.' As far as I know none of us have our separates hard wired together and cannot possibly know what neutrality is...
Hi Drew,
That's a very valid point, and one I entirely agree with.
However, like I've said before, when judging anything in audio, cables or otherwise, 'neutrality', for me, is simply my perception of it, based on my experience to date of listening to both live and recorded music, over a period of many years, and assessing how close my system gets to reproducing that sound.
In that respect, the pro-audio/'studio quality' cables I've been testing recently (Gotham or Van Damme) possess less of a 'sonic signature' than any so-called 'audiophile grade' cables I've used so far - and some rather expensive ones, too!
Marco.
Figlet108
16-05-2014, 20:32
Today I received my full loom of RFC Mercury Mk2 cables (and I can prove it - look):
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/12fO8tA809736aIAnDTlIjzYrfCmZYd9upOXWv76aS4=w959-h639-no
They have the look of quality and robustness and I love the KLE Harmony plugs.
I've only had them in for less than an hour but already it's clear they are in a different league to the Gothams.
There's a very pleasing natural balance to the music where the Gothams were a little darker with a closed in feeling and a less defined bass.
There's also a greater amount of detail and clarity coming through and a very crisp top end - symbols being especially pleasing. The Gothams were a little soft in the top end.
The bass in particular seems the most pleasing than any previous cable I've had - controlled and not overblown but deeper.
I'm not sure how much difference the KLE Harmony plugs make but I can't be bothered re-plugging the Gothams.
These are currently in the Valves+Moving Coil Speakers system (EAR509+Audiovector Si3 AA)
More thoughts over the next few days as I try them in the SS+Electrostatic system.
Today I also received the VD Silver Series cable:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8h2gAMJ9xM0/U3ZuaWcZksI/AAAAAAAACW4/En83zzvUMOI/w959-h639-no/2014-05-16+19.26.41_resize.jpg
I won't get the KLE Harmony plugs until next week, at which point I'll also have some raw VD Ultra Black cable. Once I've made them up I'll then have full looms of both the VDs + the Mercurys all with the same plugs and all more or less the same length.
I really like the RFC Mercury mk2 cables.
I am glad they hit the spot for you as well.
I am still trying to get my head around this "synergy" thing :scratch:
I am presuming that people are going from cable to cable to cable until they find one that is "right" for them. Can we also therefore assume that someone who for example has a 'dull' sounding system is hoping for a 'bright' sounding cable to offset the lack of treble definition their system is perceived to have?
If we can accept for just a moment that ALL cables are flawed, so it's a case of finding a cable that has the correct balance of flaws to compliment or counteract the shortfalls, or possibly "enhance" their system's sound? I can't think of any other sane reason why anyone would want to hop from one cable to the next searching for that "synergy" when the odds are massively stacked against them, that is if we also accept the notion that cables are in addition said here, to be "system dependant".
So, to keep this conundrum simple, I will focus on 3 areas of the sound spectrum, namely treble, midband and bass, in broad general terms and for the moment ignore ambience, soundstaging, imaging and other whatnots to keep the maths simple. I will also touch on the subject of plugs in another post.
Four cables to choose from then, with the following attributes:
1. Fine treble, dull midband, inaccurate bass
2. Dull treble, clear midband, accurate bass.
3. Fine treble, dull midband, accurate bass
4. Dull treble, clear midband, inaccurate bass
To 'cure' a system that lacks treble sparkle, so which of those four would you choose to remedy that and why?
Stratmangler
16-05-2014, 21:23
To 'cure' a system that lacks treble sparkle, so which of those four would you choose to remedy that and why?
I'd find out which component was causing the problem and change that.
You can't polish a turd! :)
I'd find out which component was causing the problem and change that.
You can't polish a turd! :)
What if it's the cable ITSELF? :ner:
Figlet108
16-05-2014, 21:37
Frank, if we focus on just the one aspect of treble, let's assume that my system (PC+DAC+Pre+Amps+Speakers) is 'perfect'. It's neither bright nor dark but just right. One cable, e.g. the Gotham may have flaws such that the 'perfect' treble is being suppressed and not getting through, whereas another cable, e.g. the Mercury is more capable in allowing this true treble that's already there in the system through.
I don't think a cable can add anything that's not already there unless it's high frequency hash or interference. Whereas a poor cable will always take away stuff like detail and clarity or tightness of bass etc...
I am still trying to get my head around this "synergy" thing :scratch:
I am presuming that people are going from cable to cable to cable until they find one that is "right" for them. Can we also therefore assume that someone who for example has a 'dull' sounding system is hoping for a 'bright' sounding cable to offset the lack of treble definition their system is perceived to have?
If we can accept for just a moment that ALL cables are flawed, so it's a case of finding a cable that has the correct balance of flaws to compliment or counteract the shortfalls, or possibly "enhance" their system's sound? I can't think of any other sane reason why anyone would want to hop from one cable to the next searching for that "synergy" when the odds are massively stacked against them, that is if we also accept the notion that cables are in addition said here, to be "system dependant".
So, to keep this conundrum simple, I will focus on 3 areas of the sound spectrum, namely treble, midband and bass, in broad general terms and for the moment ignore ambience, soundstaging, imaging and other whatnots to keep the maths simple. I will also touch on the subject of plugs in another post.
Four cables to choose from then, with the following attributes:
1. Fine treble, dull midband, inaccurate bass
2. Dull treble, clear midband, accurate bass.
3. Fine treble, dull midband, accurate bass
4. Dull treble, clear midband, inaccurate bass
To 'cure' a system that lacks treble sparkle, so which of those four would you choose to remedy that and why?
have to say cables can, or rather the wrong cables can cause havoc in a system, as I have found to my cost...much like wrong components...Synergy of units; amp/pre/speakers for example is paramount imo. and often the sum of 3 relatively average units that compliment each other will sound great with basic cables....I have a lot of cables that cost just a few pounds each and sound, with synergic components, excellent! and have connected an expensive cable to the mix and ruined that blend....cables count but if you get the mix right, then you probably dont need em...
ps, I just bought a pair off Marco:doh:
I don't think a cable can add anything that's not already there unless it's high frequency hash or interference. Whereas a poor cable will always take away stuff like detail and clarity or tightness of bass etc...
Any cable is always SUBTRACTIVE somewhere in it's frequency spectrum and that is always the starting point with them. But, where that subtraction is occurring is very often misleading. For example, a cable with a low bass output can give the perception that it is "bright" where in actual fact it is that lack of bass that spotlights the better performance in the treble regions. I have experienced hundreds if not thousands of times in my dealings with cables and their owners.
Stratmangler
16-05-2014, 21:50
What if it's the cable ITSELF? :ner:
Then it would be removed and replaced with something capable of doing its job.
I'll be honest, I ignore nearly all the cable related posts, because I haven't got a Scooby Doo what other folk's are listening to, and more importantly how they listen.
There are the odd exceptions - Marco's system sounded pretty fine on the one occasion I've heard it (it's a while ago, but I doubt if the balance of it has changed much, even if it has been updated and refined), and it's interesting to meet people at various meets, such as the MCRU one recently, because you do find out who actually does have a decent set of lugholes and the grey matter that processes it in a fashion than is akin to one's own processes.
The list of folks whose ears I do trust is actually pretty small, and there is a common theme amongst the majority of them - they nearly all play instruments, and have done so within a band environment at some point or other.
Figlet108
16-05-2014, 21:55
Sure, and that kind of thing requires experience to determine if the 'brightness' is caused by a suppression of bass in the cable or is due to the system itself being bright and a *lack* of suppression of treble in the cable is allowing it through...
Then it would be removed and replaced with something capable of doing its job.
.
But how would you KNOW it was the cable Chris, that is the conundrum.
It is part of the systems total signal chain and therefore affects all the other components accordingly and because it is usually one of the cheapest links, that is why so many people use them as an ersatz tone control through chopping and changing until by pure chance they hit upon one that has "synergy" but is nothing of the sort in reality
Sure, and that kind of thing requires experience to determine if the 'brightness' is caused by a suppression of bass in the cable of is due to the system itself being bright and a *lack* of suppression of treble in the cable is allowing it through...
Spot on Jason.
So the answer to which one of the four cables in my previous post would 'cure' a dull sounding system is . . . . None of them.
Stratmangler
16-05-2014, 22:49
But how would you KNOW it was the cable Chris, that is the conundrum.
It is part of the systems total signal chain and therefore affects all the other components accordingly and because it is usually one of the cheapest links, that is why so many people use them as an ersatz tone control through chopping and changing until by pure chance they hit upon one that has "synergy" but is nothing of the sort in reality
Components in my system generally move through more slowly than continental drift.
I would notice a cable causing issues pretty well immediately.
To date I've found nearly all forum "bargain" finds I've tried disappointing, not that I've tried too many, as I'm a quick learner.
If I hear of a "bargain" find I ignore it.
There's the odd exception.
You're right though about the cables being generally the cheapest link, and too much of everything being placed on them.
It isn't rocket science or magic, but you'd think it was with the waste of bandwidth devoted to the subject of cabling.
A cable is a LCR filter and can only subtract from the signal passing through it.
Just because it's "HiFi" doesn't make it "special"!
Figlet108
16-05-2014, 22:58
Spot on Jason.
So the answer to which one of the four cables in my previous post would 'cure' a dull sounding system is . . . . None of them.
Agreed. I don't believe you can 'cure' any problem in the chain with components further up the chain. You need to get to the root cause of the problem and deal with it directly.
But then, you know all this Frank, which is I believe the original point you were trying to make...
There are the odd exceptions - Marco's system sounded pretty fine on the one occasion I've heard it (it's a while ago, but I doubt if the balance of it has changed much, even if it has been updated and refined), and it's interesting to meet people at various meets, such as the MCRU one recently, because you do find out who actually does have a decent set of lugholes and the grey matter that processes it in a fashion than is akin to one's own processes.
In actuality, you've heard my system twice (as I distinctly remember Alex being round twice), and yes, you're right, the balance hasn't changed much since you last visited, but it has been refined a little with some subtle tweaking, although of course it's still being massively held back with that horrible 'PA valve amp' of mine :eyebrows: ;)
The recent MCRU bake-off was indeed rather illuminating, particularly how we both (with the help of Snapper) transformed what was a dreadfully mediocre £75k Clearaudio turntable into something that was reasonably listenable, with a few judicious adjustments - not to mention the later swapping out of the rather dreary sounding, and ludicrously expensive, TQ Ultra-Black speaker cable, for some Doncaster mains flex you had lying in the boot of your car, which transformed the demo system!
That was a learning curve and a half.... :exactly:
Marco.
Incidentally, I'm giving one more pair of Van Damme interconnects a go (as part of my group test). These ones feature their LC-OFC 'total definition' cable:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/843/sh2k5.jpg
...and have been terminated with Neutrik/Rean plugs and soldered using Cardas Quad-Eutectic Solder. I doubt they'll be as good as the Ultra-Blacks, but you never know... They were purchased from The Better Audio Company: http://www.thebetteraudiocompany.co.uk/van_damme_interconnect.html
Oh, and I've been listening to the cables Jerry has sent me, namely an Epiphany Acoustics Atratus MK2 (prototype), Reffc Pluto MK2 and Mercury MK2. Initial impressions are very interesting. More on that tomorrow! :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
16-05-2014, 23:42
In actuality, you've heard my system twice (as I distinctly remember Alex being round twice), and yes, you're right, the balance hasn't changed much since you last visited, but it has been refined a little with some subtle tweaking, although of course it's still being held back with that horrible 'PA valve amp' of mine :eyebrows: ;)
The recent MCRU bake-off was indeed rather illuminating, particularly how we both (with the help of Snapper) transformed what was a dreadfully mediocre £75k Clearaudio turntable into something that was reasonably listenable, with a few judicious adjustments - not to mention the later swapping out of the rather dreary sounding, and ludicrously expensive, TQ Ultra-Black speaker cable, for some Doncaster mains flex you had lying in the boot of your car!
That was a learning curve and a half.... :exactly:
Marco.
That Doncaster cable is only 0.75mm too - not yer usual ship docking hausers that everyone seems to like :eyebrows:
I've yet to try it at home, but that's got everything to do with "what I've got works, and I can't be arsed", and I also need to get some banana plugs to stick on the ends, and I keep on forgetting to get some, as it's not a screaming priority :)
I've learned a couple of tricks from Snapper too - my main "Made In Japan" is a Porky cut too (my copy of "Who Do We Think We Are" being another one), and sounds much betterer than the other vinyl copy I have.
I pay much more attention to the fine details of pressings than I ever did.
The big TT is an interesting case - heard one on a few occasions, and yet to hear it singing from the off ....
jandl100
17-05-2014, 06:01
I am still trying to get my head around this "synergy" thing :scratch:
I am presuming that people are going from cable to cable to cable until they find one that is "right" for them.
What's wrong with synergy?
Yes, it's subjective, but so is enjoying music.
Synergy - the mix of source, amps, speakers, cables, mains, supports, room carefully and lovingly selected to provide enjoyable sounds - is the basis of any well thought out system, imo.
As a happy and contented boxswapper I go from component to component, enjoying the ones that synergise well with my system and my tastes.
What's the fuss about?
What's wrong with synergy?
Yes, it's subjective, but so is enjoying music.
Synergy - the suitably selected mix of source, amps, speakers, cables, mains, supports, room - is the basis of any well thought out system, imo.
As a happy and contented boxswapper I go from component to component, enjoying the ones that synergise well with my system and my tastes.
What's the fuss about?
There is no "fuss" at all Jerry, this is simply a discussion that we can all join in and contribute to without having a dust-up to match :lol:
The point I am trying to make and people I think are recognising, is that system synergy is not an objective path you can tread to audio heaven that you can plan and implement reliably in advance and you as our chief box-swapper will realise that it is truly a case of a series of "happy accidents" where you find sonic matches in the most unexpected places, with components from sometimes obscure sources that really do 'gel' with your own system. The key words here are "happy accidents" and this is even more relevant when we come to the subject of cables and in a way it is in response to Marco who felt that some people who were not enamoured with the Gotham were being less than truthful.
That was a learning curve and a half.... :exactly:
Marco.
And that blooming learning curve never ends Marco :)
icehockeyboy
17-05-2014, 07:40
Tell me more about this 'Doncaster' cable, and how it whipped the TQ Black please! :)
jandl100
17-05-2014, 07:50
Tell me more about this 'Doncaster' cable, and how it whipped the TQ Black please! :)
It was the Ultra Black that was mentioned. ;)
.... not to mention the later swapping out of the rather dreary sounding, and ludicrously expensive, TQ Ultra-Black speaker cable, for some Doncaster mains flex you had lying in the boot of your car, which transformed the demo system!
That was a learning curve and a half.... :exactly:
Marco.
Tell me more about this 'Doncaster' cable, and how it whipped the TQ Black please! :)
They just didn't suit the system, Craig, or as was suggested, the speakers (Toppsy's Eddingdales, or whatever they're called under the MCRU banner), sounding distinctly woolly and shut-in. As soon as the Doncaster mains cable went in, the sound immediately opened up and injected 'life' and verve into the music, which the TQs had sucked out previously. I think there was something like £7k worth of speaker cables in the system.
However, I believe that Martin T uses the same TQ speaker cables in his set-up, and the effect is the polar opposite... With the TQs in place, there's nothing woolly or shut-in about the sound of Martin's system! :nono:
Therefore, I guess it goes back to the synergy thing Frank is discussing... One would think that such expensive speaker cables would automatically transform the sound of ANY system, but alas, no... Therefore, it just goes to prove that expensive, in audio, isn't always best.
Marco.
icehockeyboy
17-05-2014, 08:18
It was the Ultra Black that was mentioned. ;)
Damn this early morning reading!
And that blooming learning curve never ends Marco :)
Indeed, matey! Mine is currently continuing with what I've been discovering with the best 'studio quality' interconnects, some of which I've found easily compete with or outperform 'audiophile-grade' examples at many times the price - and that's with only 'cheapo' plugs fitted on them... We'll see what happens when the ante is duly upped in that area :eyebrows:
The star of the show so far, in that respect, are the VD Ultra-Blacks, which are truly amazing cables for about the same price as I'd pay for a decent bottle of claret to accompany my Sunday lunch!
Marco.
I'm Interested to hear how the bag of I/C's that Jerry sent you compare in your system.
currently continuing with what I've discovered with the best 'studio quality' interconnects, some of which I've found easily compete with or outperform 'audiophile-grade' examples at many times the price Nowt wrong with studio grade gear Marco . . . be careful not to tread too close to the light though ;)
I'm Interested to hear how the bag of I/C's that Jerry sent you compare in your system.
That's coming next after I've finished my morning cappuccino!
Marco.
Nowt wrong with studio grade gear Marco . . . careful not to tread too close to the light though ;)
:D :D
Marco.
That's one thing we have in common - the morning cappuccino.
Just supping mine now.
I couldn't start the day without a nice big frothy, milky one (sprinkled with chocolate) - yum, yum! :)
Marco.
For me, it's a good start to the weekend. Illy based of course...
Double espresso on a weekday when I have to go to work.
I couldn't start the day without a nice big frothy, milky one (sprinkled with chocolate) - yum, yum! :)
Marco.
How about a freshly ground whole bean that's actually been hand roasted by one of your favourite artists ;)
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/folder1_zps59fc5114.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/folder1_zps59fc5114.jpg.html)
(bit of a cheat picture though, as its all gone now :( )
The Barbarian
17-05-2014, 09:27
It's interesting all this interconnects malarky. I have a cook friend swears blind his Yorkshire puddings have never been so good since he upgraded to a new high end spatula..
:eyebrows:
It's interesting all this interconnects malarky. I have a cook friend swears blind his Yorkshire puddings have never been so goon since he upgraded to a new high end spatula..
:eyebrows:
Maybe so, but there is always a "better" spatula to upgrade to out there :eyebrows:
Indeed...and your, erm, 'spatula' must be getting rather worn by now, old chap! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Obviously I am reluctant to drag the topic away from that of coffee, but I see you are selling the Van Damme cable you recently bought Marco. Have I missed the bit where you reported how you felt it compared to the other cables you have recently been trying?
(Oh, just noticed, I've got exactly that same chopping block)
Gordon Steadman
17-05-2014, 10:06
Nah, lets keep it on a sensible topic.
Sunday tomorrow and my biggest treat of the week.
All my life I have drunk espresso, as dark and thick as I could make it. When I lived in Milan, the family always made their's like black treacle. Three heaped spoons of sugar and then pour on the coffee - small cups.
Nowadays, I have a problem with the caffeine and have been trying to cut down on the sugar too. So, all week I slum with decaf instant but Sunday mornings its show time. Off to the bakers for some nice fresh croissants and onto the hob with the coffee pot.
Sit and enjoy the morning papers with the marmalade dripping from the croissants and the coffee burning its way down. Absolute magic.
Much better than listening to wire.
Off to the bakers for some nice fresh croissants and onto the hob with the coffee pot.
Sit and enjoy the morning papers with the marmalade dripping from the croissants and the coffee burning its way down. Absolute magic.
Much better than listening to wire.
:dance:
2 cups a day for me, has to be freshly ground beans (16/17g), black and no sugar - I take it Americano style, so I can drink 2 . . . as you say, magic with some fresh French pastries :D
The Barbarian
17-05-2014, 10:17
Indeed...and your, erm, 'spatula' must be getting rather worn by now, old chap! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Straight up im not having you on, ofc i laughed out very loud when he told me..Seems it's not only Hi-Fi circles that cracked pots reside
:lol:
julesd68
17-05-2014, 10:17
Nah, lets keep it on a sensible topic.
Indeed. Just finished my cappucino with vanilla. The Illy espresso I have just bought is pretty good but am going to try Waitrose own brand which is nearly half the price and apparently very good ...
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 10:45
On a weekend, as a treat, I prefer to pour coffee into my hifi and drink cables...
Speaking of which, today I received 10m of raw VD Ultra Black, and here it is:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UDy7YtkGzHo/U3c7RSWBweI/AAAAAAAACXQ/n2ueRjnbzhQ/w875-h626-no/VD+UB_resize.jpg
While it does say '...Silver Plated..." on the sleeve it failed to mention that only 3 of the 7 cores are silver plated and the shield is also not silver plated.
It's quite thin overall too.
In contrast here's the VD Silver Series in more detail:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oXsNV88xz_0/U3c7RbIhheI/AAAAAAAACXU/6vLWUID4640/w843-h689-no/VD+Silver2_resize.jpg
Yep, it's all silver plated alright, including the shield which is a proper silver braid.
This is not making any comment on how they sound as I don't have my plugs yet, but you can see where the extra money goes for the Silver Series...
Sit and enjoy the morning papers with the marmalade dripping from the croissants and the coffee burning its way down. Absolute magic.
Marmalade with croissants? Mais non - c'est un sacrilège! :nono:
Il faut utiliser la confiture d'abricot, ou peut-être la confiture de fraise :exactly:
[Bon Maman is best, unless you make your own jam] ;)
Marco.
Speaking of which, today I received 10m of raw VD Ultra Black, and here it is:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UDy7YtkGzHo/U3c7RSWBweI/AAAAAAAACXQ/n2ueRjnbzhQ/w875-h626-no/VD+UB_resize.jpg
While it does say '...Silver Plated..." on the sleeve it failed to mention that only 3 of the 7 cores are silver plated and the shield is also not silver plated.
It's quite thin overall too.
In contrast here's the VD Silver Series in more detail:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oXsNV88xz_0/U3c7RbIhheI/AAAAAAAACXU/6vLWUID4640/w843-h689-no/VD+Silver2_resize.jpg
Yep, it's all silver plated alright, including the shield which is a silver braid.
This is not making any comment on how they sound as I don't have my plugs yet, but you can see where the extra money goes for the Silver Series...
Interesting... However, that didn't stop the Silvers sounding pish in comparison! ;) However, you may find the results different in your system. It does highlight, though, the danger of judging cables solely on their construction and/or the materials used :)
Marco.
Il faut utiliser la confiture d'abricot, ou peut-être la confiture de fraise
Marco.
Je préfère cassis ;)
Techno Commander
17-05-2014, 11:02
It does highlight, though, the danger of judging cables solely on their construction and/or the materials used :)
Marco.
Or their cost.
Obviously I am reluctant to drag the topic away from that of coffee, but I see you are selling the Van Damme cable you recently bought Marco. Have I missed the bit where you reported how you felt it compared to the other cables you have recently been trying?
Hi Mark,
See posts #104 and #128, here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32257-Van-Damme-Silver-Series-Interconnect/page11
You'll probably need to follow both threads, in order to keep up to date with matters, as comments on the cables I'm testing are being spread between them :)
Marco.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 11:02
Interesting... However, that didn't stop the Silvers sounding pish in comparison! ;) However, you may find the results different in your system. It does highlight, though, the danger of judging cables solely on their construction and the materials used :)
Marco.
Was there a big difference between them in your system?
I'm not a hardened objectivist but it does sometimes vex me that reality doesn't always match up to our current understanding of science. A cable with lower capacitance and higher conductivity should sound better, or at least more 'accurate'...
I guess the answer is that humanity still has an imperfect understanding of Science otherwise we'd all be objectivists and for good reason.
Or their cost.
Indeed... Only a mug or a badge snob would judge cables on their cost!
Marco.
Was there a big difference between them in your system?
See the link to the posts I provided Mark with - and I wasn't alone, as Neal (NRG) came to a similar conclusion, and that was with Eichmann plugs fitted.
I'm not a hardened objectivist but it does sometimes vex me that reality doesn't always match up to our current understanding of science. A cable with lower capacitance and higher conductivity should sound better, or at least more 'accurate'...
I guess the answer is that humanity still has an imperfect understanding of Science otherwise we'd all be objectivists and for good reason.
More like science can't currently measure/prove all that we can genuinely hear! ;)
Right, I'm off outside to mow the park that doubles as our lawn, and then catch some lunch. Comments on the cables Jerry sent me sometime later :cool:
Marco.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 11:07
Or their cost.
Although in this particular case the extra cost of the silvers is understandable and justifiable when you compare construction and materials. I suspect in the pro market products are priced more on a 'cost' model rather than the 'perceived value' model used in consumer hifi.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 11:09
See the link to the posts I provided Mark with - and I wasn't alone, as Neal (NRG) came to a similar conclusion.
More like science can't currently measure/prove all that we can genuinely hear! ;)
Marco.
Yep, I think that was the point I was making.
Gordon Steadman
17-05-2014, 11:14
[Bon Maman is best, unless you make your own jam] ;)
Marco.
Of course we do. From last years fruit we still have:
Orange,
Apricot,
Cherry,
Plum,
Quince,
Blackcurrant,
Strawberry,
Raspberry.
This year the lemons are looking good so some of that too I reckon. My wife is the gardener but I'm the jam maker....and mess maker. My wife also cleans:pat:
Thanks Marco, tracking this discussion between multiple threads, and with some added noise, isn't that easy! So, to summarise, am I right in thinking that, so far, your favourites are the Van Damme Ultra-Blacks?
Although in this particular case the extra cost of the silvers is understandable and justifiable when you compare construction and materials.
Absolutely, and no-one would dispute that, but the point is that superior quality materials don't always guarantee superior sonic results :)
Like the old saying goes, it's not what you've got, but how you use it....
Marco.
Thanks Marco, tracking this discussion between multiple threads, and with some added noise, isn't that easy! So, to summarise, am I right in thinking that, so far, your favourites are the Van Damme Ultra-Blacks?
Yes (and by a considerable margin), so it's looking like those are going to be the ones fitted with Furutech plugs, in order to create my version of a 'giant-killing' cable! ;)
Marco.
Of course we do. From last years fruit we still have:
Orange,
Apricot,
Cherry,
Plum,
Quince,
Blackcurrant,
Strawberry,
Raspberry.
This year the lemons are looking good so some of that too I reckon. My wife is the gardener but I'm the jam maker....and mess maker. My wife also cleans:pat:
Try strawberry and rhubarb jam. :stalks:
Gordon Steadman
17-05-2014, 11:43
Try strawberry and rhubarb jam. :stalks:
The rhubarb is a bit slow for some reason. Still, we have just had a huge delivery of horse sh.. sorry, manure, so we will dig a bit of that in and see how it does.
Jam of course, would take away from crumble so we have to be careful.
Was this a lead thread?
Yes (and by a considerable margin), so it's looking like those are going to be the ones fitted with Furutech plugs, in order to create my version of a 'giant-killing' cable! ;)
Marco.
Do you mean these ones?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Van-Damme-Black-Ultra-1-Metre-Pair-interconnect-Cables-RCA-To-RCA-Phono-NEW-/380897354418?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item58af4062b2#ht_6252wt_107558
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Van-Damme-Black-Ultra-1-Metre-Pair-interconnect-Cables-RCA-To-RCA-Phono-NEW-/00/s/OTgwWDE0NzA=/z/y1MAAOxy0bRTDL4d/$_35.JPG
--------
Inspired by my recent purchase of The Civil Wars recent Record Day release I've just been listening to their Unplugged album. The third track is a cover of the Portishead song 'Sour Times' and I was so struck by the guitar strummed intro that I plugged the Gotham cable back in to the system and compared it against my regular Atratus. I'm glad I did too because not only did I get to listen to this fabulous track a few more times but the difference (level matched) between these two cables was as stark as the recording. That strummed guitar was much fuller on the Gotham, but also more diffuse and 'warm' - the Atratus is significantly (instantly and obviously) less 'cuddly', leaner and pared back; I can absolutely hear why some would prefer the Gothams.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 11:57
Yep, that's the cable in question.
And here's a link to the raw cable with specs etc... (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-black-per-metre/)
Thanks for that Jason - unfortunately their minimum order quantity is 10 metres and whilst it still costs less than the eBay sample I just don't need 8 metres of unused cable :(.
Do you mean these ones?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Van-Damme-Black-Ultra-1-Metre-Pair-interconnect-Cables-RCA-To-RCA-Phono-NEW-/380897354418?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item58af4062b2#ht_6252wt_107558
Yup!
The third track is a cover of the Portishead song 'Sour Times' and I was so struck by the guitar strummed intro that I plugged the Gotham cable back in to the system and compared it against my regular Atratus. I'm glad I did too because not only did I get to listen to this fabulous track a few more times but the difference (level matched) between these two cables was as stark as the recording. That strummed guitar was much fuller on the Gotham, but also more diffuse and 'warm' - the Atratus is significantly (instantly and obviously) less 'cuddly', leaner and pared back; I can absolutely hear why some would prefer the Gothams.
Thing is, which sound is 'correct' (i.e. most closely resembles that which left the studio) - and how would one know? ;)
Furthermore, what you describe above is fundamentally NOT why I liked the Gothams, and indeed is not the sonic results I obtained from using them in my system. If they had been, I'd have been using the cables as a tone control, and I don't do that. I liked the Gothams because, in my system, they were pretty much devoid of any 'sonic signature': "diffuse and warm" they most certainly were not...
However, the VD Ultra-Blacks ultimately have more resolution, which is why I prefer them, as what I'm looking for are cables that offer maximum resolution, but most importantly, also make music sound like music. It puzzles me greatly why the two are sometimes mutually exclusive...
Also, the Atratus cables Jerry has loaned me, in my system, do not sound 'lean or pared back', but more in line with how you've described the Gothams. Make of that what you will :eyebrows:
Marco.
I bought 2m of the cable from ProAudioShop on ebay.
eBay item number: 140906226933
It's just the Pro Grade XKE instrument cable.
Ah, thanks :)
Now puchased £3.94
Thing is, which sound is 'correct' (i.e. most closely resembles that which left the studio) - and how would one know? ;)
Well, two points immediately strike me; 1/ I didn't say that I thought one was correct and the other was wrong and 2/, I've not made any reference to what left the studio - that's you who has done that and it was I that pointed out that one has no way of knowing what that 'nothing added, nothing taken away; sound is!
Furthermore, what you describe above is fundamentally NOT why I liked the Gothams, and indeed is not the sonic results I obtained from using them in my system. I liked the Gothams because, in my system, they were pretty much devoid of any 'sonic signature': "diffuse and warm" they most certainly were not...
Furthermore or not, that's what I hear - but you say they are "devoid of sonic signature" but in the first paragraph of your response to confirm that their is no reference against which to make such a judgement.
Also, the Atratus cables Jerry has loaned me, in my system, do not sound 'lean or pared back', but more in line with how you've described the Gothams. Make of that what you will :eyebrows:
Indeed, I will (have) :eyebrows:... .
-------
I've got spare plugs so will order a couple of metres of the Van Damme to try.
Lol... I was merely extrapolating the discussion. The point is, Mark, we're simply relating the results of what we're hearing with the various cables in question, in the context of our own ears and systems, and so neither of us is more 'correct' than the other.
The main thing I wanted to clarify was when you said: "I can absolutely hear why some would prefer the Gothams", that whatever you were hearing in your system was not responsible for why I liked them - and so not to include me in that statement.
Marco.
Yep, that's the cable in question.
And here's a link to the raw cable with specs etc... (http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-black-per-metre/)
The specs are interesting in that the Van Damme is described as a cable with 'moderate capacitance' but it is still some 38% lower than the Gotham Gac-1 (90 V 146).
I think it's a mistake to get too hung up on capacitance. For me, as long as it's at an acceptable level, there are other more important considerations involved in terms of what makes an excellent cable for 'high-end' audio use.
Btw, don't forget that I've also got these chaps on the way, which could upset the applecart further (or not):
Incidentally, I'm giving one more pair of Van Damme interconnects a go (as part of my group test). These ones feature their LC-OFC 'total definition' cable:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/843/sh2k5.jpg
...and have been terminated with Neutrik/Rean plugs and soldered using Cardas Quad-Eutectic Solder. I doubt they'll be as good as the Ultra-Blacks, but you never know... They were purchased from The Better Audio Company: http://www.thebetteraudiocompany.co.uk/van_damme_interconnect.html
We shall see! :)
Marco.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 13:37
Thanks for that Jason - unfortunately their minimum order quantity is 10 metres and whilst it still costs less than the eBay sample I just don't need 8 metres of unused cable :(.
Agreed. I went with the official source after deliberating as I read somewhere that there were some fakes on ebay floating around. I'm pretty sure it's BS, but just in case got 10m from the mothership.
If you want 2m from my 10m length just let me know, I'm unlikely to use it all.
Thanks Jason - much appreciated. I've just ordered a couple of metres from eBay now though :). I see that Blue Jeans (yet another 'studio' favourite) do a very low capacitance cable.
Yup - tried those a few years ago before I got into the Beldens and Mark Grants. They were ok (and nicely made), but in my system were easily bettered by the Mark Grant G1000HDs, never mind the G2000HDs...
Who knows what they'd do, though, in your system! ;)
Marco.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 14:41
Yeah, I like the Blue Jeans actually. I have them running in my AV setup.
Any excuse to post a photo:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PX1qpl0ET3U/UaIWC9S3AyI/AAAAAAAAB9U/R1Y37h6pi_g/w874-h583-no/IMG_6648_resize.JPG
It's a good point though. I can add them into my own group test when these plugs arrive and see where they rank in my system/ears...
The Barbarian
17-05-2014, 15:29
Yeah, I like the Blue Jeans actually. I have them running in my AV setup.
Yeh i got a pair of Blue Jeans 'LC-1' interconnects from Marco, since got another pair..They sound ok to me & nice bulliet proof construction..
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 15:50
Yes, that's what attracted me to BJ LC-1 in the first place - low cap and unbreakable construction.
Mr Kipling
17-05-2014, 17:07
Of course we do. From last years fruit we still have:
Orange,
Apricot,
Cherry,
Plum,
Quince,
Blackcurrant,
Strawberry,
Raspberry.
This year the lemons are looking good so some of that too I reckon. My wife is the gardener but I'm the jam maker....and mess maker. My wife also cleans:pat:
But where's the Kumquat Gordy? Where's the Kumquat?
I would have thought a man of your (obvious) calibre would be pushing the envelope on the preserve front.
Gordon Steadman
17-05-2014, 17:13
:lol:
I'm just the hired help.
The head gardener points me toward the tree/bush and tells me to harvest. I have no control of anything outside the back door.
I'm lucky this year. Its one of the 'cherry is orf dear' years and the birds will get what there is. No picking the damn things with the juice running up to the armpits:eek:
Yes, that's what attracted me to BJ LC-1 in the first place...
VD and BJs - you can't beat it! :D
Marco.
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 18:37
Yep, I've often heard it said in the Pro industry that folks start with BJs and love them so much that it leads them onto more exotic stuff, but eventually they all end up with VDs.
VD is very common in the Pro industry...
Figlet108
17-05-2014, 19:50
So, more listening to the RFC Mercury Mk2s today.
One thing I noticed today was how silent my speakers are now with no music and the volume turned all the way up. I have an EMI/RFI ridden environment and I've never ever had complete silence from my speakers before - it's blissful. I have a real OCD with hums and hisses and always been jealous of silent systems, so good job Mercury Mk2 :thumbsup:
The other thing I noticed is that I've been listening at higher volumes than usual...
Anyway, I just listened all the way through the classic Rodrigo y Gabriela album:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Rodrigoygabriela.jpg
I think this is a great test for a system (as well as being superb music). There's very fast playing, lots of tapping and banging on guitars to produce percussive sounds and ever present acoustic bass sounds that can drone annoyingly in less than capable systems. All these factors I think are a challenge to a good system and have all been good at highlighting weaknesses in my system's evolution.
With the Mercury, even though the playing is fast there is space around the notes and it's not muddled as it can be at times with the Gotham. There is also more detail and clarity, especially noticeable with the many variations of percussive tapping. The bass notes on the acoustic guitars are well balanced with the rest of the music and underpin the work nicely. With the Gothams the bass notes are less well defined and merge into a bit of a drone which does get a little wearing after a while and makes me want to turn down the volume - not a good sign.
After the first few tracks I couldn't be bothered focussing on the 'hifi' and just enjoyed the rest of the album.
Marco,
It must be cappuccino time again, so do you have thoughts ready to share on the RFC Mercury cables?
Lol - indeed... I had a busy day yesterday, plus the weather was too nice to sit inside and type pish on a computer. Weather wise, that looks like being the case again today, but I'll make the effort!
Marco.
Much appreciated.
I am off to go and clean the pool and cut the grass today. That's a good few hours booked already.
jandl100
18-05-2014, 08:07
Lol - indeed... I had a busy day yesterday, plus the weather was too nice to sit inside and type pish on a computer. Weather wise, that looks like being the case again today, but I'll make the effort!
Marco.
Oy! Amigo!
I want 'em baaaaaaack :lol:
Werll, the Mercury2 anyway. ;)
I've listened to them all, Jerry, so rest assured that the cables you've sent will be returned to you on Monday :)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
18-05-2014, 08:35
Much appreciated.
I am off to go and clean the pool and cut the grass today. That's a good few hours booked already.
I'm sure it grows quicker over here:(
I have already trimmed next doors hedge this morning (on our side of course). They planted it when we let them have a 5 metre strip of land between our plots. In ten years, we now have a huge barrier that seems to put out two or three feet into our side every year. Its not the cutting that pisses me off, its clearing up all the cuttings afterwards.
As Ronnie runs a rose nursery from our garden (4 hectares), someone (guess who) has to try and keep the grass in check. Thankfully, the old ride on is still going.
I wouldn't be without my garden tractor!
Well, that's the grass cut and the pool cleaned.
Still no post from Marco. It must be one of those rare sunny weekends in the UK. :eyebrows:
Ok, it's been a long day, so I'm going to keep this short and sweet. If anyone wants me to expand more on these findings, I'll do so later.
Epiphany Acoustics Atratus MKII (prototype): In general, nice sounding cables, which let the music flow and don't draw attention to themselves in a notably negative way, although in my system they lack the openness, sheer resolution and musical insight of the VD Ultra-Blacks, sounding somewhat 'safe' in comparison, and exhibiting a mild tonal richness, divorcing them from my perception of true neutrality. To all intents and purposes, these are good cables, but not ones I would personally consider using.
RFC Pluto MK2: Notably better in my system than the Atratus, exhibiting greater overall clarity and high-frequency definition. After listening to the fairly unremarkable performance of the Atratus, plugging the Plutos in invigorated the sound and made me sit up and listen! These cables match the VD Ultra-Blacks for musical insight and resolution, but don't quite allow music to 'flow' in quite such an entertaining way. However, the Plutos have a very 'finessed', sweet sounding and subtly detailed sonic presentation that many would no doubt find beguilling.
RFC Mercury MK2: The Mercurys take the enviable traits of the Plutos and run with them further, producing a more 'grown up' sound, full of vim and vigour, filigree detailing and masses of musical insight. They have an uncanny knack of unravelling layers of information in the musical mix, diluted by most other cables I've heard, but never in a way that is 'pushy' or fatiguing. 'Treble sparkle' and overall resolution, with the Mercurys, is in a league higher than even that I've enjoyed so far with the VD Ultra-Blacks, which added to their rather classy and cultured sound, makes for a most satisfying listen.
Overall, in this small 'shootout', with the VD Ultra-Blacks also in the equation, the Mercurys win. The VD UBs have a smidgen less overall resolution and less filigree detailing than the Mercurys, but do a remarkable job considering the considerable difference in price (something which perhaps Jerry or Paul could confirm, and also that of the Plutos and Atratus?) It will be interesting to see whether the Mercurys current superiority can be negated by upgrading the plugs on the VDs, as the former use high-quality Eichmann-sourced items.
Perhaps that's one to revisit once my chosen studio cables receive the Furutech treatment? Anyway, my thanks go to Jerry for allowing me to try the RFC and Epiphany cables in my system - it was certainly an interesting exercise. However, it's now onwards and upwards with my studio cable experiments. The imminent arrival of the Van Damme 'total definition' cables, from The Better Audio Company, will be the last ones for auditioning before the real fun begins, and I discover what playing around with different plugs brings to the party - it's all good fun!
And with that, folks, it's time for bo-bos... :goodnight:
Marco.
jandl100
19-05-2014, 05:15
Well done, Marco. :thumbsup: Open and honest and incisive, as ever!
I pretty much agree with your findings, with slight differences in perception of tonal balance. Remarkably close in opinion, though. I have yet to hear the VD UBs, as I left them behind when returning home at the weekend! :doh:
I think the Atratus 2 prototype is a substantial step forward on the original, it's got less 'robust' and become more sophisticated. Although the robustness was fun. They synergise really well with some kit, ime. I see from their website that Epiphany has brought out an XLR plugged Atratus II at £66, but not an RCA one. Also an RCA digital version. Hmm, that seems a bit odd. :scratch: I'll inquire about that.
http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk/products-page/
FYI - costs for 1m pairs are around ... Atratus 2 £60-ish?, RFC Pluto2 ~£105, RFC Mercury2 ~£165. All good value in different ways, imo. :)
... now you know why I'm eager to get the Merc2 cables back. ;)
Cheers, Jerry - just reporting my honest observations. I was very impressed with the Plutos and Mercurys, considering them to represent, along with the Mark Grants, great examples of commercially produced cables that deliver high on SPPV, which for me acts as the ultimate arbiter for anything in audio.
Indeed, all those cables mentioned punch well above their price point, as I've used much more expensive items in the past which didn't deliver their levels of programme analysis or infectious musicality. As such, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to members for auditioning, who are in the market for cables at that price level, and where they can then ascertain which balance of attributes best suits their systems.
However, in terms of sheer SPPV, the VD Ultra-Blacks take it, as in my system, they were 95% as good as the Mercurys, whilst being 85% cheaper, so that tells its own story. I guess it all depends on how important that extra 5% is to your music listening, and indeed if your system is capable of revealing the difference and/or ears able to identify it - and of course who knows if fitting the VD Ultra-Blacks with better plugs would level the playing field?
That's something, which with your help, I intend to revisit and find out at end of my experiments....
Of course, none of that detracts from the efficacy of the Plutos, Mercurys, Mark Grants, Yannis cables, or any others out there which deliver high on the 'price vs. performance' front, notwithstanding the fact that most people will simply want to buy a ready-made 'fit and forget' solution for their cable requirements, but it does show that if one is willing to experiment and practice some lateral thinking, the rewards are there.
It's all good fun and extremely informative! :cool:
Marco.
P.S your cables will be returned today by First Class 'Signed For' post, so you should get them tomorrow, and your system will thus be re-Mercuryfied! :eyebrows:
I'm glad to see your findings about the Mercury and Pluto reflect mine, and more importantly what Paul has on the RFC website.
I hope to get home to a cable and plug delivery tonight so I can knock up the "ultra black."
It will give me something to do whilst listening to the FX1200.
Oh, it's arrived at last! That didn't take long, did it, 2 months or something? ;)
It'll be interesting to see what your opinion is of the UBs. Which plugs are you putting on them?
Marco.
I am planning on some American designed Furutech Rhodium plated carbon copies, and some WBT clones.
I'll be ordering some KLE silver harmony plugs soon though.
As for the arm delivery, it's mostly my fault as I wanted platter delivered at the same time,
It's been stuck in France for a week as UPS could not find my house.
icehockeyboy
19-05-2014, 10:43
I already had some 'better' plugs on my VD Ultra Whites, so I believe (hopefully!) that my ante has already been upped a little anyways! :)
Figlet108
19-05-2014, 11:17
Yep, agree with your (and Kevin's and Jerry's) comments on the Mercurys Marco and it's interesting that there's some convergence of opinion on these.
My KLE silver harmony plugs are coming this week so I can do the Mercury/VD UB comparison with all the same plugs.
jandl100
19-05-2014, 12:05
I think the Atratus 2 prototype is a substantial step forward on the original, it's got less 'robust' and become more sophisticated. Although the robustness was fun. They synergise really well with some kit, ime. I see from their website that Epiphany has brought out an XLR plugged Atratus II at £66, but not an RCA one. Also an RCA digital version. Hmm, that seems a bit odd. :scratch: I'll inquire about that.
http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk/products-page/
FYI - I've just heard back from Oliver at Epiphany. The RCA version of the Atratus II is on hold pending trials with some of the new plugs that have come out, including Eichmann KLE bullets.
So just the XLR and RCA-digital versions will be available for the next few months. :)
Cheers, Jerry - just reporting my honest observations. I was very impressed with the Plutos and Mercurys, considering them to represent, along with the Mark Grants, great examples of commercially produced cables that deliver high on SPPV, which for me acts as the ultimate arbiter for anything in audio.
Indeed, all those cables mentioned punch well above their price point, as I've used much more expensive items in the past which didn't deliver their levels of programme analysis or infectious musicality. As such, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to members for auditioning, who are in the market for cables at that price level, and where they can then ascertain which balance of attributes best suits their systems.
However, in terms of sheer SPPV, the VD Ultra-Blacks take it, as in my system, they were 95% as good as the Mercurys, whilst being 85% cheaper, so that tells its own story. I guess it all depends on how important that extra 5% is to your music listening, and indeed if your system is capable of revealing the difference and/or ears able to identify it - and of course who knows if fitting the VD Ultra-Blacks with better plugs would level the playing field?
That's something, which with your help, I intend to revisit and find out at end of my experiments....
Of course, none of that detracts from the efficacy of the Plutos, Mercurys, Mark Grants, Yannis cables, or any others out there which deliver high on the 'price vs. performance' front, notwithstanding the fact that most people will simply want to buy a ready-made 'fit and forget' solution for their cable requirements, but it does show that if one is willing to experiment and practice some lateral thinking, the rewards are there.
It's all good fun and extremely informative! :cool:
Marco.
P.S your cables will be returned today by First Class 'Signed For' post, so you should get them tomorrow, and your system will thus be re-Mercuryfied! :eyebrows:
Hi Marko,
just listened to a cable Firebottle put together and initial impressions were very good indeed. Used it with his phono stage which is superb! Need to try it with my Croft amps next. Could be interesting:eyebrows:
Still no sign of my XKE cable or the plugs. :(
Eet eez bollix, innit, n'est-ce pas? Mon Dieu, wood zees av appened eef you ad leaved een Lon-done?
Marco.
Incidentally, if any of you are interested, here's what I used to use before I got my TD Copper amp, in the days when I was a diehard 'sandboy':
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8787/06082007087hk5.jpg
£6k (at the time - £8.5k new now, I believe) ECS Monoblocks: 200WPC, and with a HUGE 1500VA transformer PER CHANNEL! More info here: http://www.ecsamplifiers.co.uk/product1.aspx?id=11
'STEALTH' version:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/dty2.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/i959.jpg
They were beasts (and oh so musical sounding), drove any speakers you could name to within an inch of their lives, and I loved them, but as soon as I heard the Copper amp (in conjunction with the same Croft preamp I use now, only less modified), I discovered that I'd spent the previous 20 years, or so, wasting my time using a multitude of different (high-quality, mostly expensive) SS amps (not just Naim, as some folk seem to think! :doh:), under the mistaken notion that valve amps were 'warm, coloured & cuddly'...
Oh, and of course, the ECS monoblocks showed up cable differences so much better than the Copper amp does - NOT! ;)
Anyway, with that amusing little interlude over, we return now to the subject in hand, as the postie has just delivered a set of these chaps, which are the last of the Van Damme cables included in my studio cable experiments:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/qh7c.jpg
Will they be even better than the VD Ultra-Blacks? Stay tuned, folks, to find out! :)
Marco.
Anyway, with that little amusing interlude over, we return now to the subject in hand, as the postie has just delivered a set of these chaps, which are the last of the Van Damme cables included in my studio cables experiments:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/qh7c.jpg
Will they be even better than the VD Ultra-Blacks? Stay tuned, folks, to find out! :)
Marco.
I had a couple of pairs of those, but with different plugs. They went, with several other pairs of interconnects, in the great pfm charity cable giveaway when I went integrated last year.
Cool - I'll let you know whether these ones, fitted with different plugs, are as pishy or not....
Marco.
brian2957
20-05-2014, 09:55
Well , I plugged in the reterminated Van Damme Ultras this morning and I've been listening to my system for the last hour or so . Using the better Rhodium plugs these sound like totally different cables in my system . Further confirmation ( as if I needed any ) that the type of plug and the material used can totally change the character of a cable . These are now sounding very good indeed . I'll give them a period of time to run in and then I'll compare them directly to the Yannis silver cables . Going to be a much closer contest this time methinks :)
Cool - I'll let you know whether these ones, fitted with different plugs, are as pishy or not....
Marco.
They weren't so much 'pishy' as surplus to requirements. Is that a stock photo, because the one of the plugs looks a bit scratched?
It's just one of the pictures used by the ebay trader on his advert, Joe. The cables, or the plugs on them, I've got aren't scratched in any way.
Brian, nice one mate - look forward to reading your revised opinion in due course! :)
Marco.
jandl100
20-05-2014, 10:18
Loan cables received back AOK ... and happily reinstalled in system. Thanks Marco. :)
Nice one, Jerry. Glad they got there safely, and thanks again for the loan :thumbsup:
Well, initial (very brief) impressions of the VD 'Total Definitions' (as shown above) are rather positive. They may not be quite as good as the UBs (I haven't listened to them enough yet to form anything like a proper opinion), but I can say 100% sure that, in my system, they're no duffers! :nono:
Marco.
Incidentally, if any of you are interested, here's what I used to use before I got my TD Copper amp, in the days when I was a diehard 'sandboy':
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8787/06082007087hk5.jpg
£6k (at the time - £8.5k new now, I believe) ECS Monoblocks: 200WPC, and with a HUGE 1500VA transformer PER CHANNEL! More info here: http://www.ecsamplifiers.co.uk/product1.aspx?id=11
'STEALTH' version:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/dty2.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/i959.jpg
They were beasts (and oh so musical sounding), drove any speakers you could name to within an inch of their lives, and I loved them, but as soon as I heard the Copper amp (in conjunction with the same Croft preamp I use now, only less modified), I discovered that I'd spent the previous 20 years, or so, wasting my time using a multitude of different (high-quality, mostly expensive) SS amps (not just Naim, as some folk seem to think! :doh:), under the mistaken notion that valve amps were 'warm, coloured & cuddly'...
Oh, and of course, the ECS monoblocks showed up cable differences so much better than the Copper amp does - NOT! ;)
Anyway, with that lamusing little interlude over, we return now to the subject in hand, as the postie has just delivered a set of these chaps, which are the last of the Van Damme cables included in my studio cable experiments:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/qh7c.jpg
Will they be even better than the VD Ultra-Blacks? Stay tuned, folks, to find out! :)
Marco.
Like the Buddha Marko :)
Nice one, Jerry. Glad they got there safely, and thanks again for the loan :thumbsup:
Well, initial (very brief) impressions of the VD 'Total Definitions' (as shown above) are rather positive. They may not be quite as good as the UBs (I haven't listened to them enough yet to form anything like a proper opinion), but I can say 100% sure that, in my system, they're no duffers! :nono:
Marco.
What VD cable is that Marco? I've got some Tour Grade Classic XKE that I could try as an interconnect...
Like the Buddha Marko :)
Sadly not mine, Jim. The garden, amp and Budda belong to a guy I used to know on the old Mana forum. ECS made the Stealth amps, sold under the Mana banner. I owned the standard ECS amps, without the Stealth tweaks. However, both amps were awesome beasts, capable of taking on pretty much anything!
However, that wasn't enough to stop me being seduced by the magic of glowing bottles, especially when they featured in an amp that had all the bass grip, authority and musical finesse of the ECS monoblocks, together with the beguiling 'airy' midrange purity of valves: the Tube Distinctions Copper amp.
You *can* have it all....! ;)
Marco.
What VD cable is that Marco? I've got some Tour Grade Classic XKE that I could try as an interconnect...
Here you go, Neal: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301178366235?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 The seller (Colin) is a really helpful and friendly chap. If you click on the enclosed pics, it shows you all the cable details printed on the outside.
The Neutrik/Rean plugs are really, really nice, in terms of appearance and how well they fit/grip sockets. No loose connections here! They are one of the best types of plugs I've ever used in that respect, see here for details: http://www.rean-connectors.com/en/products/phono/phono-plugs/nys352g
Outside of the 'exotica' arena (Eichmann, Furutech, WBT, etc), they've now become my favourite plugs - far better than the Pro-Fi versions, IMO.
Thoughts on the sonic performance of the actual cables later! :)
Marco.
Cheers Marco, it appears to be this stuff: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Van-Damme-Interconnect-Definition-Directional/dp/B009M3JP6G
Yup, dat's da stuff! :)
Marco.
brian2957
20-05-2014, 19:47
Right , firstly SWMBO's not very happy as I should have been cladding the wooden bits of the garage with UPVC cladding today . Instead I've spent all day farting about and listening to cables :D
I've had a very interesting day trying to better my Yannis silver cables with the recommendations posted by Marco and a few others on here. I managed to put together 3 different cables with the same plugs on each one . This one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Rhodium-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/281319455270?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item417ff23a26
Now I really rate this plug as it has upgraded every cable I have fitted it to and it's a decent price.
The first cable I tried was the Gotham GAC-1 interconnects which I found were quite closed in . The soundstage had collapsed in my system . I removed the supplied plugs and fitted the Rhodium plugs which opened the cable right up giving it an airy feel , however bass wasn't as deep and clean as it had been previously. The Yannis cables was returned into the system as the favoured interconnect.
Secondly , the Van Damme Ultras with stock plugs was sampled. I felt that this again was a decent cable but not quite as good as the reterminated Gothams . This totally changed when I fitted the Rhodium plugs . The Ultras were now much nearer the Yannis cables. In fact if I didn't have the latter already in my system I would have been more than happy with the Ultras in situ . However long term listenng convinced me that the Yannis cables were still better , although the gap between them and the Ultras was now much smaller , and the Ultras were removed in favour of the Yannis cables once again.
I'm now going to throw a curve ball into the proceedings :eyebrows:
While raking around my box of tricks I discovered a 2m length of this http://www.studiospares.com/cable-guitar-/klotz-ac110-guitar-cable-metre/invt/544590 . This is the cable Rega use in their Couple interconnects and which I've used previously with my Rega DAC and BrioR , with great success I may add. I had a spare set of the Rhodium plugs so ' what the hell ' nothing to lose . I duly fitted the plugs and plumbed them into my system and was taken by surprise by what I heard . I've been listening to these cables in my system for the last few hours and my opinion hasn't changed so far . These cables are easily a match for the Yannis cables and are better in some areas . Bass is cleaner, deeper and more musical . The background is much quieter allowing me to hear previously unheard details on well known pieces of music and the soundstage has opened up even more , something which was totally unexpected ( OK the Yannis cable being bettered by a cable at this price was totally unexpected )
When I started on this journey I wasn't expecting anything special to come out of this . Just having a bit of ' cheap ' fun . However this has been really interesting experiment . Even more fun than cladding the side of my garage with UPVC:uhho:
I might be getting whipped with one of my cables later on . Better make sure it's not the Klotz cables :D
VERY interesting, Brian. Looks like I'll have to throw some Klotz into the equation! I'm going to wait though until I decide on which VD cable is the 'winner' in my own tests.
I believe that Rega sell that cable already made up with Neutrik Pro-Fi plugs fitted, for something like £90?
Marco.
brian2957
20-05-2014, 20:03
Rega have brought out a new interconnect . I can't remember what it's called or how much it is . However you can still purchase the Couples for £95 I believe .
You have PM Marco.
brian2957
20-05-2014, 20:09
:doh: Thanks Kevin , just as well somebody's awake :lol:
The Couple 2?
Yup, this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rega-Couple-2-Interconnects-1-0m-RCA-RCA-/291144700498?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item43c9939252
Can't see why it would be any better than the old stuff, though...
Marco.
My XKE cable has turned up.
All I need now are the plugs....
Slowly but surely, eh? ;)
Marco.
Yes, very slowly.
I am just wondering if I should start gathering the electrons for my soldering iron now or not.
WBT style plugs arrived today.
I'll start building my cable at the weekend. XKE + WBT
I think my other cable is at the post office, so just waiting for the 2nd set of plugs.
My plugs and cable turned up today :):) even been to get a new soldering station build time tonight.
Covenant
24-05-2014, 07:59
Right , firstly SWMBO's not very happy as I should have been cladding the wooden bits of the garage with UPVC cladding today . Instead I've spent all day farting about and listening to cables :D
I've had a very interesting day trying to better my Yannis silver cables with the recommendations posted by Marco and a few others on here. I managed to put together 3 different cables with the same plugs on each one . This one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Rhodium-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/281319455270?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item417ff23a26
Now I really rate this plug as it has upgraded every cable I have fitted it to and it's a decent price.
The first cable I tried was the Gotham GAC-1 interconnects which I found were quite closed in . The soundstage had collapsed in my system . I removed the supplied plugs and fitted the Rhodium plugs which opened the cable right up giving it an airy feel , however bass wasn't as deep and clean as it had been previously. The Yannis cables was returned into the system as the favoured interconnect.
Secondly , the Van Damme Ultras with stock plugs was sampled. I felt that this again was a decent cable but not quite as good as the reterminated Gothams . This totally changed when I fitted the Rhodium plugs . The Ultras were now much nearer the Yannis cables. In fact if I didn't have the latter already in my system I would have been more than happy with the Ultras in situ . However long term listenng convinced me that the Yannis cables were still better , although the gap between them and the Ultras was now much smaller , and the Ultras were removed in favour of the Yannis cables once again.
I'm now going to throw a curve ball into the proceedings :eyebrows:
While raking around my box of tricks I discovered a 2m length of this http://www.studiospares.com/cable-guitar-/klotz-ac110-guitar-cable-metre/invt/544590 . This is the cable Rega use in their Couple interconnects and which I've used previously with my Rega DAC and BrioR , with great success I may add. I had a spare set of the Rhodium plugs so ' what the hell ' nothing to lose . I duly fitted the plugs and plumbed them into my system and was taken by surprise by what I heard . I've been listening to these cables in my system for the last few hours and my opinion hasn't changed so far . These cables are easily a match for the Yannis cables and are better in some areas . Bass is cleaner, deeper and more musical . The background is much quieter allowing me to hear previously unheard details on well known pieces of music and the soundstage has opened up even more , something which was totally unexpected ( OK the Yannis cable being bettered by a cable at this price was totally unexpected )
When I started on this journey I wasn't expecting anything special to come out of this . Just having a bit of ' cheap ' fun . However this has been really interesting experiment . Even more fun than cladding the side of my garage with UPVC:uhho:
I might be getting whipped with one of my cables later on . Better make sure it's not the Klotz cables :D
Nice one Brian, my kind of price!. I am going to have a go making a pair of these. The Klotz cable has arrived, just waiting for the MS Audio plugs. I use an old pair of Randall Research interconnects atm so they will be used as the comparison.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 08:11
Cheers Jerry , both the Klotz AC110 and the MS plugs are very good to work with and sound fantastic together . I'm sure you won't be disappointed :)
+1 (with bells on)! :exactly:
Loving the Klotzys, fitted with MS Audio RCA plugs (which essentially are Graham Nalty GN-4 rhodium plated over Tellurium Copper, minus the badge, at a fraction of the price) - just stupidly, stupidly good for the money, and WAY, WAY beyond it...!! :eek:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/839/mkov.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/835/10lk.jpg
Is it because these are the first studio-type cables I've heard fitted with top-notch plugs (as shown above), or is it that the Klotz cable itself is intrinsically better than any of the Van Dammes I've been using? We shall see.. There certainly seems to be a synergy between this cable and these plugs. Anyway, I'll update my findings properly later on all the cables I've been listening to recently.
Marco.
I've just knocked up my Van Damme XKE cable with the cheap WBT clones. It took me about half an hour. I'm not overly impressed with the plugs, but they do the job and for £13 I can't really complain.
The finished interconnect seems bloody good for the money. Less than £25 including P&P. I could happily live with it in my system.
It has a very nice full bodied sound, but I think it misses out a bit of the finer detail that my Mercury Mk2 can reveal.
I think the KLE Silver Harmony will be easier to solder up, but I am still waiting for the Furutech carbon clones to arrive to see what they do on Furutech cable.
The Klotz AC110 is one I am keen to try as well, but I will not decide on what plugs until I have done my next cable.
+1 (with bells on)! :exactly:
Loving the Klotzys, fitted with MS Audio RCA plugs (which essentially are Graham Nalty GN-4 rhodium plated over Tellurium Copper, minus the badge, at a fraction of the price) - just stupidly, stupidly good for the money, and WAY, WAY beyond it...!! :eek:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/839/mkov.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/835/10lk.jpg
Is it because these are the first studio-type cables I've heard fitted with top-notch plugs (as shown above), or is it that the Klotz cable itself is intrinsically better than any of the Van Dammes I've been using? We shall see.. There certainly seems to be a synergy between this cable and these plugs. Anyway, I'll update my findings properly later on all the cables I've been listening to recently.
Marco.
I am tempted to try one of these ready made cables. Klotz AC110 with Nuetrik Rean
eBay item number - 251462220711
If you can still remember how it sounded, I would be interested to hear your thoughts of how the Klotz compares to the Mercury mk2 cable.
I've bought a length of the Klotz to try (not delivered yet) and have made up a cable with the Van Damme - but not listened to it yet and am away from home now for a few days.
I am tempted to try one of these ready made cables. Klotz AC110 with Nuetrik Rean
eBay item number - 251462220711
They should be pretty good, and they're located in France, so they might get to you before Christmas!! :D
If you can still remember how it sounded, I would be interested to hear your thoughts of how the Klotz compares to the Mercury mk2 cable.
I'd say that they were achingly close, in terms of performance, and perhaps in some areas the Klotz/MS Audios edge ahead.
Either way, you're cetainly talking about minute differences. My gut feeling tells me though that a goodly dose of what I'm hearing with the Klotz is coming from the plugs, which I seriously rate - almost to the point where I'm wondering if I can even be arsed trying the Furutechs!
Some piccies of the internals of the plugs fitted to the Klotzys (only mine are the rhodium-plated variety):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/838/0sgs.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/834/lhjaw.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/725qm.jpg
"Single point ground connection decreases eddy current effect and reduces susceptibility to electromagnet and radio frequency interference. Open cylinder centre pin for lower skin effects during connection. Nylon insulator for reduced inductance and capacitance."
However, me being me, that's not gonna happen, as the 'what if?' factor will get the better of me... In that respect, I'm looking forward to finding out what you think of your Furutech carbon clones :)
Marco.
I've bought a length of the Klotz to try (not delivered yet) and have made up a cable with the Van Damme - but not listened to it yet and am away from home now for a few days.
Would be interested, as ever, in your thoughts, Mark! :)
Marco.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 13:23
Here's hoping you don't waste the sound of these cables by fitting those expensive plugs matey :lol:
Indeed, Brian... I wouldn't dream of vandalising them in that way, though. When I try the Furutech plugs, they'll be on a different set of Klotz cables, enabling me to do quick A/B comparisons between both, where the plugs are the only variable ;)
Marco.
Not sure they will be of much benefit Marco, but I still have the Gotham and my usual cable so will be interesting to compare them all. I've also ordered some of those GN RCAs - including P&P they come out as £3.50 each.
They should be pretty good, and they're located in France, so they should get to you before Christmas!! :D
Marco.
I have just ordered a pair.
:rolleyes:
That's me done for cables for a while. The one I like best will be tried throughout my system. and I'll probably go exclusively over to it.
As I said on the VD thread I don't think the MS plugs are particularly good, yes, fine for the price but I have reservations about the quality of the contact especially the return. Also, I found the Eichmann bullets slightly better improving the XKE Instrument cable...YMMV
brian2957
24-05-2014, 13:37
Indeed, Brian... I wouldn't dream of vandalising them in that way, though. When I try the Furutech plugs, they'll be on a different set of Klotz cables, enabling me to do quick A/B comparisons between both, where the plugs are the only variable ;)
Marco.
Mmm... That should be interesting .
As I said on the VD thread I don't think the MS plugs are particularly good, yes, fine for the price but I have reservations about the quality of the contact especially the return.
Sorry, Neal, I disagree. I've used (still use in some applications) Eichmann bullets, and IMO, the MS Audio/Nalty plugs are sonically superior - and by a reasonable distance. Like you say, though, YMMV :)
Remember though, in terms of your remark about "fine for the price", the MS Audio plugs, with a GN badge on them, sell for £80, not £12 (as is the case from ebay):
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/diy-componants/866-graham-nalty-legacy-gn3-gn4-rca-connector.html
...and mine are the more expensive rhodium-plated versions!! ;) Therefore, in the areas that matter, the MS Audio plugs are not in any way 'cheap'.
Marco.
P.S I've always liked the sonic effects of rhodium plating, as it seems to give a nice 'crisp/sparkly' sound.
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