View Full Version : VFM/SPPV studio cables test
Not sure they will be of much benefit Marco, but I still have the Gotham and my usual cable so will be interesting to compare them all. I've also ordered some of those GN RCAs - including P&P they come out as £3.50 each.
Indeed... I presume you mean the identical GN clones (from MS Audio), not the 'fancy badge marked-up' GNs? I know the price you've quoted suggests that, but I just want to be sure!
Marco.
Yep, if you recall, I did rather say they were the same thing when the GN's were launched. Looks like the Eichmann patent has lapsed.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 14:16
Sorry, Neal, I disagree. I've used (still use in some applications) Eichmann bullets, and IMO, the MS Audio/Nalty plugs are sonically superior - and by a reasonable distance. Like you say, though, YMMV :)
Remember though, in terms of your remark about "fine for the price", the MS Audio plugs, with a GN badge on them, sell for £80, not £12 (as is the case from ebay):
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/diy-componants/866-graham-nalty-legacy-gn3-gn4-rca-connector.html
...and mine are the more expensive rhodium-plated versions!! ;) Therefore, in the areas that matter, the MS Audio plugs are not in any way 'cheap'.
Marco.
P.S I've always liked the sonic effects of rhodium plating, as it seems to give a nice 'crisp/sparkly' sound.
Bliddy hell Marco , I thought that the GN plugs were similar however, as this is the first time I've seen a picture of them , the similarities are uncanny . And all for a fraction of the price.
Yep, if you recall, I did rather say they were the same thing when the GN's were launched. Looks like the Eichmann patent has lapsed.
Yeah, I remember that now... You'd need to be a serious daftee to buy the Nalty-badged ones, at over SIX TIMES the price, for exactly the same product!! :mental: :D
Marco.
Bliddy hell Marco , I thought that the GN plugs were similar however, as this is the first time I've seen a picture of them , the similarities are uncanny . And all for a fraction of the price.
They're the same fooking plugs, mate, simply with different barrels (i.e. ones minus any branding by a 'famous name')!!
Marco.
They use exactly the same exploded diagram of how they are constructed to market both the plugs - they are the same thing - one is £14 for four (just under) and one is £60.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 14:23
Makes you wonder sometimes :rolleyes:
They use exactly the same exploded diagram of how they are constructed to market both the plugs - they are the same thing - one is £14 for four (just under) and one is £60.
...such is the mark-up one pays in audio for 'badge-fi'. Does my tits in!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Sorry, made a mistake, the GN ones are £100 compared to £14.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 14:35
Might start a new company and sell these at a premium .
ScottishMafiaSounds . Featuring Haggis Hifi phono plugs .
With ' Aye ye'll like it ya wee bisum ' :lol:
Can anyone design me a logo .
Might start a new company and sell these at a premium .
ScottishMafiaSounds . Featuring Haggis Hifi phono plugs .
With ' Aye ye'll like it ya wee bisum ' :lol:
Can anyone design me a logo .
Hahahaha... Or 'Aye, they're pure fandabbydozy, by the way'. Mark's good at logos!
Marco.
Sorry, Neal, I disagree. I've used (still use in some applications) Eichmann bullets, and IMO, the MS Audio/Nalty plugs are sonically superior - and by a reasonable distance. Like you say, though, YMMV :)
Remember though, in terms of your remark about "fine for the price", the MS Audio plugs, with a GN badge on them, sell for £80, not £12 (as is the case from ebay):
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/diy-componants/866-graham-nalty-legacy-gn3-gn4-rca-connector.html
...and mine are the more expensive rhodium-plated versions!! ;) Therefore, in the areas that matter, the MS Audio plugs are not in any way 'cheap'.
Marco.
P.S I've always liked the sonic effects of rhodium plating, as it seems to give a nice 'crisp/sparkly' sound.
I don't know how different the eBay plugs are from the Nalty/MS plugs but they look identical and theres nothing I've seen that tells me they are any different ;)
We'll have to agree to disagree here. My ears clearly tell me the Eichmanns are better sonically and I think mechanically as well. Close inspection of the MS Rhodium already shows significant wear on the return contact after just a dozen or so connections and reconnections. The turned barrels are nice though but thats just decoration.
brian2957
24-05-2014, 14:57
Aye that would work . ' Made in Scotland from girders and soaked in 25 year old malt ' :)
I don't know how different the eBay plugs are from the Nalty/MS plugs but they look identical and theres nothing I've seen that tells me they are any different ;)
We'll have to agree to disagree here. My ears clearly tell me the Eichmanns are better sonically and I think mechanically as well. Close inspection of the MS Rhodium already shows significant wear on the return contact after just a dozen or so connections and reconnections. The turned barrels are nice though but thats just decoration.
That's fine, Neal. Different ears and systems, etc. My ears clearly tell me that the MS Audio plugs are better - and there no signs of wear here! :)
Out of interest, do the Eichmann plugs use Tellurium Copper for the condutor pins?
Marco.
Yeah, the Eichmann's use tellurium copper - the plugs are very similar. I've got some Eichmann copper with gold plate - the gold plate has almost entirely worn off after a dozen uses (they are very lightly plated).
Cool - just wondered. These MS Audio plugs definitely have something special about their sound though, as they outperform my silver Eichmanns. Maybe it's the Rhodium plating? Dunno... Anyway, I can clearly hear their sonic superiority.
Out of interest, you say that the plugs are similar, so what exactly are the differences? For example, does this (taken from the MS Audio ad on ebay) also apply to the Eichmanns:
The one side ground (Single point grounding) design decrease Eddy current and electromagnetic/RF interference.
Marco.
Yup, I do wonder about plating on plugs, the Rhodium has worn off on the MS plug I've just checked, the Eichmann also has wear but its a lot older than the MS.
Yeah, the Eichmann's use tellurium copper - the plugs are very similar. I've got some Eichmann copper with gold plate - the gold plate has almost entirely worn off after a dozen uses (they are very lightly plated).
This is what I don't like concerning the construction, the return contact has worn and it doesn't fit correctly. The Eichmann in comparison seems to allow for a certain amount of deflection of the return contact even with some wear but still keeping constant pressure on the socket. It may be nothing in reality and not make a blind bit of difference! And I've got some painting to do! :lol:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/MS_Plug_Wear.jpg
....but given the price, I shouldn't be complaining! ;)
Lol - you never need an excuse to post an interesting picture! Like you say, that makes 'hee-haw' difference to the sound, so as purely a listener and non-builder, it wouldn't concern me one iota... ;)
Also, maybe you've just got a bad batch? I'd imagine that sample consistency will vary in something that is, after all, mass-produced.
Marco.
I am in the middle of a widespread ‘bake off’ of low-cost interconnects, involving 10 interconnects, 5 different sets of ears and 5 different systems. Some of the interconnects are commercial items, some are my own concoction. It is a work “in progress”, but so far there has been some agreement (and only little disagreement) on the SQ of the cables involved.
As I said it is work in progress, but I can tell you both the Klotz AC100 and the Gotham ‘Ultra Pro’ cables sound virtually identical. This doesn’t come as much surprise to me since both cables have very similar construction and geometry. And despite external differences in the plugs used (Neutrik REAN on the Klotz and Amphenol on the Gotham cables), the parts that connect are identical.
Incidentally, both the Klotz and Gotham cables sounded as good as the Chord ‘Signature Tuned ARAY’ cables at £765 a metre pair.
Yeah, it occurred to me that the Klotz and van Damme have exceedingly similar constructions.
These XKE cables are sounding good. Tomorrow I will put them up against my NVA Super Sound Cords and see which I prefer.
Hi Barry,
As I said it is work in progress, but I can tell you both the Klotz AC100 and the Gotham ‘Ultra Pro’ cables sound virtually identical. This doesn’t come as much surprise to me since both cables have very similar construction and geometry. And despite external differences in the plugs used (Neutrik REAN on the Klotz and Amphenol on the Gotham cables), the parts that connect are identical.
Points noted, however the Klotz cables I'm using aren't fitted with Neutrik/Rean plugs, but rather MS Audio ones, as shown on previous posts.
These are higher quality plugs in all areas than the Neutriks, particularly as they use solid-copper conductors (as opposed to the brass of the Neutriks), which is one of the reasons why the Klotz cables I'm using (along with Brian) sound so good.
Also, in terms of Klotz versus the Gotham Ultra-Pro, the latter I believe has much higher capacitance, as earlier measured by Neal. Furthermore, the Klotz/MS Audio combination, in my system, is significantly sonically superior to the Gothams - there's no comparison! :)
Incidentally, both the Klotz and Gotham cables sounded as good as the Chord ‘Signature Tuned ARAY’ cables at £765 a metre pair.
That's good to know - another example (along with the Kimber Silvers Neal mentioned before) of high-quality studio cables easily competing with 'high-end audiophile' varieties! ;)
Marco.
These XKE cables are sounding good. Tomorrow I will put them up against my NVA Super Sound Cords and see which I prefer.
I look forward to that one... However, don't form any conclusive opinions until you hear some Klotz, fitted with top-notch plugs (MS Audio, Eichmann or Furutech) :)
It should be noted that while the Klotz cables have been 'around the block' for a while, they're relatively new to me. Furthermore, there seems to be a real synergy between the Klotz cables in question and the MS Audio plugs, which previous users of Klotz cables, fitted with other plugs, may not have experienced.
The MS Audio plugs, IMO, are certainly better than the Neutrik Pro-Fi varieties, normally fitted to Klotz cables (i.e. on the interconnects Rega named as their 'Couple'). I've used the latter before and did not achieve the superlative results I've experienced with the Klotz cables I'm currently using.
Marco.
Where did you get your MS terminated Klotz cables from Marco? Where do the Van Damme Ultra Blacks fit into the pecking order for the cables you have heard so far?
Cheers
I made a set of van Damme`s up today done a blind test with my two daughters done the test about three times each they both said the van Damme was better :)
I found the sound was in in sync and the bass and treble were really defined .
Just my two cents worth
Next up is connect set up to new mains spur see what that does !!!!
Where did you get your MS terminated Klotz cables from Marco? Where do the Van Damme Ultra Blacks fit into the pecking order for the cables you have heard so far?
Brian made some up for me (see the Scottish jokes between us earlier in the thread, posts #562/563). He bought the raw wire from here: http://www.studiospares.com/cable-guitar-/klotz-ac110-guitar-cable-metre/invt/544590 and the MS plugs from here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301170636792?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT and made the cables up for me.
The Ultra-Blacks are currently in second place, behind the MS/Klotz. However, I haven't heard the former yet with high-quality plugs fitted (read as ones using solid-copper, as opposed to brass, conductors), which is the next test I'll be conducting :)
Marco.
I made a set of van Damme`s up today done a blind test with my two daughters done the test about three times each they both said the van Damme was better :)
Better than what, Gerald? :)
Marco.
What is the general consensus of opinion on the best value for money connector?
The WBT style plugs I have used are "metal", so I want to try some better plugs on the XKE cable. I am tempted to try some KLE "Silver Harmony" or some DH Labs "Silver Sonic Ultimate RCA" unless someone else has some better suggestions?
brian2957
25-05-2014, 07:37
Where did you get your MS terminated Klotz cables from Marco? Where do the Van Damme Ultra Blacks fit into the pecking order for the cables you have heard so far?
Cheers
I hadn't tried the MS plugs until after I sold you the Klotz cables Barry . I was happily using the same plugs as the ones fitted to yours. The MS plugs are an upgrade to the excellent the Neutriks though .
What is the general consensus of opinion on the best value for money connector?
The WBT style plugs I have used are "metal", so I want to try some better plugs on the XKE cable. I am tempted to try some KLE "Silver Harmony" or some DH Labs "Silver Sonic Ultimate RCA" unless someone else has some better suggestions?
I'd go with either the KLE (Silver or Copper Harmony, whichever takes your fancy) or the MS Audio plugs, discussed here. I've got no experience of the Silver Sonic ones you refer to.
Having experimented at length now with all sorts of different plugs, not just during this cable experiment, but previously during other tests, there's no doubt in my mind there are significant sonic gains to be had by using lightweight, non-metal bodied plugs, with either solid-silver or soild-copper conductors.
Brass/gold-plated conductors seriously degrade the sound, as do heavy plugs featuring an excessive use of metal in their construction.
Marco.
My head is spinning trying to catch up with all these cable threads-
I want to do a 'full loom' from (and including) my 12xx (which still has the oem junk on it), through my phono stage and into my integrated amp, using a quality plug.
Is the concensus here that the VD black with MS Star Line plugs are the prefered choice, and is anyone selling the Star line plugs here in the UK?
The thought behind this, is that I want to pull out the 'zillion pound' cables from my system, put in something good that works, close off that analytical area of my brain, and get back to enjoying the music.
Hi Kevin,
Is the concensus here that the VD black with MS Star Line plugs are the prefered choice, and is anyone selling the Star line plugs here in the UK?
I think it's a 'no' to the second one, unless anyone can correct me on that? VD Black 'might' be the preferred choice, as it were, once I test it with quality plugs. I've only listened to it so far with the el-cheapo stock plugs, and if it can sound so good with those, one wonders how it would sound with better plugs fitted...
However, at the moment, the Klotz/MS plugs combo is significantly the best option in my system, but much of that could be down to the MS plugs. Unfortunately, I'm only halfway through my experiments at the moment, so haven't reached a definitive conclusion. Therefore, you can either wait until then, and discover my findings at the end of the process, or take a punt now on which option you think will be best! :)
The thought behind this, is that I want to pull out the 'zillion pound' cables from my system, put in something good that works, close off that analytical area of my brain, and get back to enjoying the music.
That's precisely why I've done it (with signal cables), although just to throw a spanner into the works, it's still my view that Yannis makes exceptionally good tonearm cables, especially his 423.5 Phono Silver Litz (I prefer the tonearm cables to his stereo interconnects, as I believe that his design principles are more optimally achieved in that particular application), and when fitted with top-notch connectors at either end, the 423.5 Phono Silver Litz takes some beating!! ;)
Marco.
As far as I am aware, the only source for the MS Audio pugs is direct from Taiwan via eBay _ I don't see a problem with this though, the seller is geniune, the goods arrive undamaged and as described no problem - I have ordered items from UK sellers that have taken longer to be delivered.
I would be happier if the Yannis cables offered some form of shielding, particularly for tonearm cables - unless they do?
Dunno, Mark - you know me for those types of details! Have a read here (note that Yannis has endorsed the use of MS Audio/Starline plugs as an option on his designs): http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono_litz.html
I use the same Furutech DIN connector, shown on the picture, but with Eichmann silver bullets on the end. I intend to try the cable with both MS Audio and Furutech CF-126 RCAs (to match the carbon-fibre designed CF-DIN R plug), and see whether either improves significantly on the Eichmanns :)
Marco.
P.S You've probably missed it, but I'd be obliged if you'd answer post #568 - cheers! :cool:
Mr Kipling
25-05-2014, 11:17
Perhaps Naim were right about Din connectors after all.
The cables I compared against were Van Den Hul D102 III Hybrid Interconnect
Ah, I see (you never said), so another, more expensive and established 'audiophile-grade' cable bites the dust, defeated by the, much cheaper, young 'studio-grade' upstart! Can anyone sense a pattern developing? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Mr Kipling
25-05-2014, 11:59
Well, yes. But then it doesn't really take an Einstein to fathom-out that the hi-fi sector is awash with overpriced overhyped gear.
Luckilly, I've had the sense to realise that and not wasted pots and pots of money.
Thing is, in my experience, the notion isn't universally applicable throughout a system, as I quite happily (and for justifiably very sound sonic reasons) use rather 'exotic' mains leads (see signature for details) ;)
Marco.
Ah, I see (you never said), so another, more expensive and established 'audiophile-grade' cable bites the dust, defeated by the, much cheaper, young 'studio-grade' upstart! Can anyone sense a pattern developing? :eyebrows:
Marco.
That is the same cable I was looking to replace, and did. Ok, I replaced it with a more expensive, but very good RFC Mercury Mk2, but since then it's been a different story! :trust:
Mr Kipling
25-05-2014, 13:15
Thing is, in my experience, the notion isn't universally applicable throughout a system, as I quite happily (and for justifiably very sound sonic reasons) use rather 'exotic' mains leads (see signature for details) ;)
Marco.
Well, as my Granny used to say: "To each his own".
I'd just as soon make my own.
Cool - just wondered. These MS Audio plugs definitely have something special about their sound though, as they outperform my silver Eichmanns. Maybe it's the Rhodium plating? Dunno... Anyway, I can clearly hear their sonic superiority.
Out of interest, you say that the plugs are similar, so what exactly are the differences? For example, does this (taken from the MS Audio ad on ebay) also apply to the Eichmanns:
Marco.
Oh, didn't see this post at all!
The point contact for the return is exactly the same for the MS and the Eichmann plugs, as is the hollow + pin. They are both made from the same tellurium copper. The main construction difference is that the MS uses a flower petal design to the 'return grip ring' and the Eichmann uses a circular design. If the Eichmann patent were still valid the MS Audio plugs would be in clear breach as it is a very close clone.
There is also a difference in the plating of each plugs. The Eichmann are gold or silver plate directly onto the tellurium copper - the MS are gold or rhodium over the copper.
I don't know about the MS plugs but with the Eichmann's, because the gold plating is quite pure and very thin, it rubs off very easily - this looks a bit poor but isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Well, as my Granny used to say: "To each his own".
I completely agree with that statement, and in audio, that is precisely what I do, and indeed have always done (with rather good success) :)
Marco.
Oh, didn't see this post at all!
The point contact for the return is exactly the same for the MS and the Eichmann plugs, as is the hollow + pin. They are both made from the same tellurium copper. The main construction difference is that the MS uses a flower petal design to the 'return grip ring' and the Eichmann uses a circular design. If the Eichmann patent were still valid the MS Audio plugs would be in clear breach as it is a very close clone.
There is also a difference in the plating of each plugs. The Eichmann are gold or silver plate directly onto the tellurium copper - the MS are gold or rhodium over the copper.
I don't know about the MS plugs but with the Eichmann's, because the gold plating is quite pure and very thin, it rubs off very easily - this looks a bit poor but isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Thanks, Mark. I was thinking specifically about some claimed weakness in the design of the Eichmanns, which the MS/Nalty plugs have apparently successfully addressed. I've seen it mentioned somewhere, but forget exactly what it was. Are you aware of what I'm referring to?
Marco.
brian2957
25-05-2014, 14:10
Was it not the star shape of the housing which holds the earth connection , rather than round as in the Eichmanns. Apparently it's a tighter / better fit. MS also have silver plated plugs BTW .
I hadn't tried the MS plugs until after I sold you the Klotz cables Barry . I was happily using the same plugs as the ones fitted to yours. The MS plugs are an upgrade to the excellent the Neutriks though .
Cheers Brian.
I may replace the REAN and Amphenol connectors (fitted to the Klotz and Gotham cables respectively) after I have finished the multi-party listening tests and a clear winner (or winners) emerges.
Yes, there is some claim regarding the greater effectiveness of the star shaped return grip but honestly I think it's bollocks and really just an attempt to talk up the the only real difference between the two plugs. In reality the Eichmann ring is split and it behaves like a three point chuck just as the MS does - it's just styled differently.
If anyone want a couple of metres of the van damme cable I got some spare, plus I will chuck in a couple of metres of my yellow perelle cable to see what they think of that. I`ve use it for years as my headphones extention cable be nice to see what someone else thinks of it.
If anyone want a couple of metres of the van damme cable I got some spare, plus I will chuck in a couple of metres of my yellow perelle cable to see what they think of that. I`ve use it for years as my headphones extention cable be nice to see what someone else thinks of it.
Is your Van Damme the Ultra Black? If so, I wouldn't mind a couple of metres.
I'll PM you regarding payment.
Cheers
Is your Van Damme the Ultra Black? If so, I wouldn't mind a couple of metres.
This is the stuff I got http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-black-per-metre/
I'll take a couple of metres please. :)
If anyone want a couple of metres of the van damme cable I got some spare, plus I will chuck in a couple of metres of my yellow perelle cable to see what they think of that. I`ve use it for years as my headphones extention cable be nice to see what someone else thinks of it.
I'd like some if possible, I was going to buy from ebay, and I'm happy to pay you for some- better to keep it all in house I think. :-)
Yes, there is some claim regarding the greater effectiveness of the star shaped return grip but honestly I think it's bollocks and really just an attempt to talk up the the only real difference between the two plugs. In reality the Eichmann ring is split and it behaves like a three point chuck just as the MS does - it's just styled differently.
Yes, that was it - thanks.
Regardless, to my ears (and for whatever reason) the MS varieties are better sounding - and much cheaper, too! A win-win :)
Marco.
Yeah, will obviously investigate mine when they arrive - they may be a tighter fit. Increasingly I think how tight the connector fits to the socket is the primary difference between different ones.
icehockeyboy
25-05-2014, 19:20
This is the stuff I got http://www.vdctrading.com/shop/van-damme-cable/audio/analogue-single-cable/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument/van-damme-pro-grade-classic-xke-instrument-cable-black-per-metre/
Is this the Van Damme Ultrablack/White cable?
I might be wrong but.....
I don't think it is.........
I'm sticking with the Eichmans, I think the return pin design is better thought out, they grip tighter and are more consistent, they also sound better to me as well. ;). BTW the metal barrels of the MS fit the Eichmans perfectly!
Techno Commander
25-05-2014, 20:54
Ah, I see (you never said), so another, more expensive and established 'audiophile-grade' cable bites the dust, defeated by the, much cheaper, young 'studio-grade' upstart! Can anyone sense a pattern developing? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Some of us have been saying this for years.
If you can look past the latest fashionable bling product and accept that you dont need to drop £500 for a bit of wire :mental: you will find lots of sonic bargains from the pro world. Look at what is used in studios and make mental notes as to why it is used. :)
I never paid any mind to studio stuff before because all too many of the recordings I have, sound terrible on good equipment, and the couple of producers/engineers I've dem'd equipment to had tin ears.
I have recently been buying new ' for audiophiles' pressings of stuff from the 80s and apart from being on 180g vinyl they are terrible, with intolerable sibilence and overall bright tone- makes me wonder what was going on in the studio when they remastered them. A poke around a few forums led to me discovering a lot of unhappy people with good vinyl playback bemoaning the work done in the studios, which is amplified (no pun intended) on quality hifi.
And, don't get me started on the 'loudness wars', suffice to say, you can't be sure studios make sound choices. (Another unintended pun).
pitadavespa
26-05-2014, 10:30
Isn't rhodium (around) 3 times a worse conductive metal than cooper?
edit: http://metals.about.com/od/properties/a/Electrical-Conductivity-In-Metals.htm
Rhodium isn't that good a conductor I found, when doing some research on a mechanical switch for a low powered battery device. Gold plating is only any use as it lessens the problem with oxidisation, silver is a better conductor, but it's too soft for use on a tight contact plug. Plain old copper is the best all round if you can be bothered to keep it de-oxidised.
Jewelers use Rhodium on silver jewelery to keep it protected, but they consider it a sacrificial coating that needs to be reapplied periodically, I see no benefit to it being used on hifi plugs other than a 'unique selling point' as I doubt many have taken their plugs to a jewelers to have them recoated.
My better plugs turned up today, and I'll get the cable tomorrow.
Hopefully I will have time to solder it all up during the day.
pitadavespa
26-05-2014, 11:57
Rhodium isn't that good a conductor I found, when doing some research on a mechanical switch for a low powered battery device. Gold plating is only any use as it lessens the problem with oxidisation, silver is a better conductor, but it's too soft for use on a tight contact plug. Plain old copper is the best all round if you can be bothered to keep it de-oxidised.
Jewelers use Rhodium on silver jewelery to keep it protected, but they consider it a sacrificial coating that needs to be reapplied periodically, I see no benefit to it being used on hifi plugs other than a 'unique selling point' as I doubt many have taken their plugs to a jewelers to have them recoated.
^^Thanks.
--
Has anyone tried this ones: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audiophile-Series-Phono-Plugs-10-Large-Diameter-Gold-Plated-RCA-Connectors-/161267834961?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cable_Termin ations&hash=item258c4fe051 ?
These are gold plated brass. Is it a bad thing?
The standard is gold plated brass - bras is an alloy that includes copper but the percentage varies a lot. Alloys like tellurium copper are really another way of saying high copper content brass. Most brass connectors are flash plated in copper first and then gold plated with a thicker, harder layer (plugs made from tellurium copper, for example, can be plated on directly without an intermediate layer). If a manufacturer says their plugs are gold plated brass then mean they are absolutely big standard.
Isn't rhodium (around) 3 times a worse conductive metal than cooper?
edit: http://metals.about.com/od/properties/a/Electrical-Conductivity-In-Metals.htm
Indeed, but regardless of that, it hasn't stopped every rhodium plated solid-copper plug or socket I've used sounding superb, and if the plating is done well, rhodium is very durable, thus it maintains the integrity of the connection better over a longer period of time, than gold.
Rhodium is also more conductive than gold, and so in that application, it does a very good job. This was confirmed when I was comparing two identical Furutech FI-1363 mains plugs, other than the fact that one was gold and the other rhodium plated, on two identical MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. The sonic difference was subtle, but the rhodium-plated plug version produced a slightly 'crisper' and more dynamic sound, which is why I settled on buying the (R) version of the 1363s.
For me, with rhodium plating, it boils down to this:
Yes, it's a poorer conductor than copper, BUT it's a better conductor than the gold that's normally used for the job, plus it's more durable. Therefore, unless you continually polish your bare copper plugs and sockets (and pins on mains plugs), in order to maintain the integrity of the connection, and neutralise the effects of oxidisation, then a rhodium plated solid-copper plug or socket is about as good as it gets (other than simply hard-wiring, but the inconvenience this brings, in terms of being able to move/swap equipment easily, puts many folk off going down that route).
Marco.
I have brass (and its variations) switches and .999 copper switches, the copper being by far the best. I would guess that brass is used in hifi plugs because copper is poor for threading, tho' this can be helped with 'nolox' applied to the threads. I suspect manufactures just produce whatever is the least problematic to the end-user, then throw in some sales speak like 'Rhodium' and 'Terillium' to dazzle buyers.
The standard is gold plated brass...
Yup, and in my experience, it's also by far the worse sounding... Trouble is, most folk own commercially produced hi-fi equipment, which they're very unlikely to want to tamper with, and so bog-standard gold-plated brass sockets (because of cost constraints) are the norm.
Therefore, upgrading sockets, where when fitting higher quality ones often involves having to drill out the casing, thus defacing one's expensive equipment in the process, just isn't going to happen. This is especially so when most amplifier manufacturers (as a result of trying to cram as many inputs in as possible) place their banks of sockets rather close to each other, thus meaning that to fit better sockets (which are usually wider), often means ripping the whole lot out and starting again...!
This is one of the advantages of adopting the bespoke DIY/modified route, with hi-fi, but that simply isn't going to be for everyone.
Marco.
As you say, gold plated brass sockets are the norm - partly because of cost but also because they are hard wearing.
Upgrading sockets may involve having to drill the chassis hole a little larger, it depends on what was previously fitted. If the sockets are chassis fitted it shouldn't be by more than 1mm though and it should be easy enough to do that neatly. The kind of sockets that are direct mounted to a PCB and stick through holes in the back plate are another matter though.
For my part, I don't modify as much as scratch build so what connectors one has to use is an inevitable choice I have to make - as is making the required holes.
As you say though, not a task for everyone.
As you say, gold plated brass sockets are the norm - partly because of cost but also because they are hard wearing.
Yup, however the resulting sonic compromise, in a genuinely high-resolution system, is easily heard.
When recently upgrading every gold-plated brass socket in my system, with high-quality rhodium-plated solid-copper varieties, including doing the same with some plugs (mains and signal), I couldn't believe the difference that the cumulative effect of doing so had made. The resulting increase in clarity and dynamics from my system was startling, to say the least! :eek:
Incidentally, if anyone is thinking of upgrading the RCA sockets on their equipment, I'd recommend using these chaps, rhodium over solid-copper, available from Hi-fi Collective (at £17 a pop) - info here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/rca_sockets.html
Some pics:
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/8725/sawi.gif http://imageshack.com/a/img841/4172/bcz3.gif
Optional solder-less connections too, although I also had mine properly soldered.
I use a mixture of the above sockets and the Furutech FP-901s, shown below. TBH, the sockets above are just as good for a fraction of the price of the Furutechs (used on my Copper amp):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/yej9.jpg
The Furutechs are just a bit more nicely engineered. The Eichmann HC-XTC PhonoPods (also shown on the HFC website) are also excellent, and I use those on my Croft preamp.
However, as I said, the sonic improvement gained from replacing bog-standard gold-plated brass sockets, in my system, was significant. Furthermore, you're then able to take full advantage of the sonic benefits of using the rather lovely MS Audio solid-copper plugs (which 'mate' beautifully with all of the above sockets)! ;)
Marco.
Techno Commander
26-05-2014, 13:07
I never paid any mind to studio stuff before because all too many of the recordings I have, sound terrible on good equipment, and the couple of producers/engineers I've dem'd equipment to had tin ears.
I have recently been buying new ' for audiophiles' pressings of stuff from the 80s and apart from being on 180g vinyl they are terrible, with intolerable sibilence and overall bright tone- makes me wonder what was going on in the studio when they remastered them. A poke around a few forums led to me discovering a lot of unhappy people with good vinyl playback bemoaning the work done in the studios, which is amplified (no pun intended) on quality hifi.
And, don't get me started on the 'loudness wars', suffice to say, you can't be sure studios make sound choices. (Another unintended pun).
No matter ho good the ingredients are, a crap producer will still make a bad cake.
And I totally agree with the loudness and excessive compression thing. I blame Radio 1. :)
choirboy
26-05-2014, 14:39
Rhodium is also more conductive than gold, and so in that application, it does a very good job.
Rhodium is actually a poorer conducter than gold from what I've read.
http://metals.about.com/od/properties/a/Electrical-
Conductivity-In-Metals.htm
Rhodium is actually a poorer conducter than gold from what I've read.
http://metals.about.com/od/properties/a/Electrical-
Conductivity-In-Metals.htm
Rhodium has an IACS about half that of Gold, and about a quarter of copper IIRC. Rhodium plating gold will mask its IACS rating, I'm sorry to have to contradict Marco, but in this case he's way off. Adding Rhodium to gold is a backwards step, and the 'better the plating' the more it harms the IACS.
Rhodium is normally applied to white gold, and I really can see no benefit applying it to yellow gold.
Interesting read ;)
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/On%20the%20Conductivity%20of%20Selected%20Metals.p df
Rhodium plated plugs?
…...Compared to other platinum metals, it is a very good conductor, but still only half as good as gold and just one third as good as silver. Therefore, it is misplaced as a coating in a domestic environment. Its sound characteristics are often described as harsh and analytic. It does however have its justification in industrial environments with high temperatures, for instance near blast furnaces…...
Rhodium is actually a poorer conducter than gold from what I've read.
http://metals.about.com/od/properties/a/Electrical-
Conductivity-In-Metals.htm
Soz, my mistake... I simply presumed that it was, and should've checked first! :)
Marco.
Its sound characteristics are often described as harsh and analytic...
:lol:
Erm, no - not unless the system it's being used in exhibits those characteristics...
Marco.
brian2957
26-05-2014, 15:51
I take both your points regarding the conductivity of Rhodium . It shouldn't work very well in audio applications . However my own experience of using various plugs with the same cables contradicts this .
I used the MS Audio Rhodium plated plugs , Neutrik gold plated plugs , Amphion gold plated plugs and some silver plated no-name plugs on Klotz AC110 cables and the Rhodium plated plugs sounded best . By quite a margin . The bottom line is that I'm not about to buy and fit expensive plugs to a 2 quid a metre cable . If others want to do that it's their business and I hope they're suitably rewarded with an upgrade in SQ . However I've achieved excellent results with the MS Rhodium plated plugs . I don't know , or care , about conductivity figures . I can only tell you what I hear , as ever :)
Edit : Out of pure curiosity I will probably purchase and fit a set of MS Audio silver plated plugs to the Klotz cables and post my findings on here .
Wow, who would have thought we would have 63 pages about interconnects since I started this thread.
I am actually shocked that it has all been very grown up, and no major arguments have broken out.
Anyway, can anyone recommend a decent solder for the plugs? Is WBT 4% silver ok, or are there better products available?
I plan to buy a small reel of the stuff, as I have almost finished my experiments.
Interesting read ;)
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/sitefiles/15/2/2/152201/On%20the%20Conductivity%20of%20Selected%20Metals.p df
Rhodium plated plugs?
…...Compared to other platinum metals, it is a very good conductor, but still only half as good as gold and just one third as good as silver. Therefore, it is misplaced as a coating in a domestic environment. Its sound characteristics are often described as harsh and analytic. It does however have its justification in industrial environments with high temperatures, for instance near blast furnaces…...
That's an interesting take on the IACS (internationally accepted scale) where copper is 100. silver is 106, gold is 76, and rhodium is 39, never seen it laid out that way- it seems to give a false impression of how good or bad things are.
A point of information concerning the conductivity of various metals: the pecking order (from best to worst) is -
Silver
Copper
Gold
Aluminium
Rhodium
Nickel
Brass
I take both your points regarding the conductivity of Rhodium . It shouldn't work very well in audio applications . However my own experience of using various plugs with the same cables contradicts this .
I used the MS Audio Rhodium plated plugs , Neutrik gold plated plugs , Amphion gold plated plugs and some silver plated no-name plugs on Klotz AC110 cables and the Rhodium plated plugs sounded best . By quite a margin . The bottom line is that I'm not about to buy and fit expensive plugs to a 2 quid a metre cable . If others want to do that it's their business and I hope they're suitably rewarded with an upgrade in SQ . However I've achieved excellent results with the MS Rhodium plated plugs . I don't know , or care , about conductivity figures . I can only tell you what I hear , as ever :)
Edit : Out of pure curiosity I will probably purchase and fit a set of MS Audio silver plated plugs to the Klotz cables and post my findings on here .
The only way to tell the difference between plated and non plated would be to use the exact same plugs, plated and non plated, and I agree there will be a difference- one that you may prefer, but rhodium can't by its nature make the connection better. There will most likely be a difference from one batch to the next too (I plate for a living) as it's nearly impossible to get them all identical.
brian2957
26-05-2014, 16:19
I don't think MS Audio supply their plugs unplated so the only comparison which I would be able to make would be between their Rhodium , gold plated or silver plugs . I will indeed endeavour to sample the other versions and report my findings.
I do like the look of the MS plugs and I'm probably going to buy a set, remove the plating and silver plate them- I'm not going to say I have good reason to do it- and I suspect the difference will be minimal with the VD ultra cable I'll be using- but what the hell, if you can...
pitadavespa
26-05-2014, 16:50
That's an interesting take on the IACS (internationally accepted scale) where copper is 100. silver is 106, gold is 76, and rhodium is 39, never seen it laid out that way- it seems to give a false impression of how good or bad things are.
Also interesting is the fact that conductivity has to do with resistance and resistance (at least within "normal" values) doesn't have any influence in the sound, only in the volume. ;)
Makes us (re)think or not? :)
Yep - going from copper to silver makes a difference of 0.25dB in signal amplitude!
cyclopse
26-05-2014, 17:04
Wow, who would have thought we would have 63 pages about interconnects since I started this thread.
I am actually shocked that it has all been very grown up, and no major arguments have broken out.
Anyway, can anyone recommend a decent solder for the plugs? Is WBT 4% silver ok, or are there better products available?
I plan to buy a small reel of the stuff, as I have almost finished my experiments.
Use Cardas quad eutectic solder. Paul at RFC uses it.
pitadavespa
26-05-2014, 17:13
Yep - going from copper to silver makes a difference of 0.25dB in signal amplitude!
:)
How about the higher frequencies?
I heard they reproduce themselves in silver interconnects! :D
--
Now more serious: in audio cables, especially interconnects, I believe the main, and I really mean MAIN differences in the sound result from the cable architecture more than the type of metal used. The type of metal only affects resistance, so, signal amplitude (volume).
Impedance and capacitance are what gives cables their "sonic signature". And these are dependent from the cable architecture.
Incidentally, if anyone is thinking of upgrading the RCA sockets on their equipment, I'd recommend using these chaps, rhodium over solid-copper, available from Hi-fi Collective (at £17 a pop) - info here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/rca_sockets.html
Some pics:
http://imageshack.com/a/img842/8725/sawi.gif http://imageshack.com/a/img841/4172/bcz3.gif
Optional solder-less connections too, although I also had mine properly soldered.
I use a mixture of the above sockets and the Furutech FP-901s, shown below. TBH, the sockets above are just as good for a fraction of the price of the Furutechs (used on my Copper amp):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/836/yej9.jpg
The Furutechs are just a bit more nicely engineered. The Eichmann HC-XTC PhonoPods (also shown on the HFC website) are also excellent, and I use those on my Croft preamp.
However, as I said, the sonic improvement gained from replacing bog-standard gold-plated brass sockets, in my system, was significant. Furthermore, you're then able to take full advantage of the sonic benefits of using the rather lovely MS Audio solid-copper plugs (which 'mate' beautifully with all of the above sockets)! ;)
Marco.
No experience of the rhodium plated ones you list, but I did recently fit these CMC ones to my phonostage:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/images/rca_805fs_silverl.gif
CMC-805-CUR-AG
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/80525cuag-copper-thick-silver-plate-sockets-pair-p-2163.html
£19.20 a pair
:)
How about the higher frequencies?
I heard they reproduce themselves in silver interconnects! :D
--
Now more serious: in audio cables, especially interconnects, I believe the main, and I really mean MAIN differences in the sound result from the cable architecture more than the type of metal used. The type of metal only affects resistance, so, signal amplitude (volume).
Impedance and capacitance are what gives cables their "sonic signature". And these are dependent from the cable architecture.
Impedance (as in the characteristic impedance) has no meaning at audio frequencies, but the geometry (and choice of dielectric insulation) does indeed determine the capacitance per unit length of any cable. However, unless the output impedance of the source is very large and the capacitance of the cable is also very high, then the actual value is again of little consequence. The loop inductance is also irrelevant.
I don't know what it is that determines how a cable will 'sound', save I believe it is not the cable as such, rather it is how the two items connected by the cable interact with one another. To that end I believe any cable 'sound' will be system dependent as well as being dependent on the environment; the latter demonstrating how well the cable rejects any EMI/RFI and is thus a 'measure' of the design of the screen/shield.
pitadavespa
26-05-2014, 17:38
Impedance (as in the characteristic impedance) has no meaning at audio frequencies, but the geometry (and choice of dielectric insulation) does indeed determine the capacitance per unit length of any cable. However, unless the output impedance of the source is very large and the capacitance of the cable is also very high, then the actual value is again of little consequence. The loop inductance is also irrelevant.
I don't know what it is that determines how a cable will 'sound', save I believe it is not the cable as such, rather it is how the two items connected by the cable interact with one another. To that end I believe any cable 'sound' will be system dependent as well as being dependent on the environment; the latter demonstrating how well the cable rejects any EMI/RFI and is thus a 'measure' of the design of the screen/shield.
I agree with every word.
English in not my main language and I sometimes struggle to say what i want. When I said architecture I should have said geometry. ;)
Thanks Barry.
I used to use Transparent Ref XL cables that take the route of controlling the cable characteristics with electical components- I now use Siltech silver (not plated) cales which blow the Transparent out the water IMO- but really it's only opinion, and very system dependant. The Transparent in a Krell, Wilson Grand Slam system produced the most accurate piano I've ever heard- the Silver cables couldn't get close.
My latest interconnect is sounding pretty darned good.
It's made using these plugs - Cheap carbon bodied plugs (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331016998934?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) and this cable - Awesome cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271124350801?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
I don't think that the plugs are pure copper as stated in the advert, but what do you expect from eBay? I think next time I'll go for either KLE Harmony from a known and trusted source, or a decent WBT or WBT style plug. The Furutech Carbon plugs are far too much money!
In fact the cheap carbon plugs are too wide to fit comfortably next to each other in the RCA sockets, so they will need to be changed very soon. Chalk that one down to experience.
Klotz based cable arrived this morning.
I'll give it a go tonight, and over the next few days and post my thoughts of all three later in the week.
Think I'll hold off on buying cable till I read your views- hurry hurry:-)
My Klotz cable came today too - looks pretty much exactly the same as the Van Damme (in terms of construction too).
The MS Audio plugs were also delivered. Very fast delivery via air-mail - only a couple of days slower than a UK supplier would be. Might well solder them onto the Van Damme later.
-------
Those cheap carbon bodied plugs look fancy but frankly, it's just a bit of audio jewellery 'bling' IMO. I've used carbon fibre quite a lot and the idea that a piece that size is doing anything to an RCA plug that a normal plastic barrel isn't doing is simply laughable - it's just marketing bollocks of the first order.
Those cheap carbon bodied plugs look fancy but frankly, it's just a bit of audio jewellery 'bling' IMO. I've used carbon fibre quite a lot and the idea that a piece that size is doing anything to an RCA plug that a normal plastic barrel isn't doing is simply laughable - it's just marketing bollocks of the first order.
I totally agree, but if they were actually pure copper, rhodium plated, they could have been quite good.
What do you think of the MS Audio plugs?
I totally agree, but if they were actually pure copper, rhodium plated, they could have been quite good.
What do you think of the MS Audio plugs?
Yeah, I agree. Looking at the blurb they say 'pure copper signal conductor' which could mean just the + pin (or it could just mean solid brass :)).
Not used the MS Audio ones yet, but I prefer the way the + and return have little solder buckets = they grip the socket well without making you think they are going to strip it bear.
Ninanina
28-05-2014, 18:38
I don't think that the plugs are pure copper as stated in the advert
In fact the cheap carbon plugs are too wide to fit comfortably next to each other in the RCA sockets
I think that is the problem ordering goods from Hong Kong/China etc... just look at the jewellery they have on offer; they state that it is 9/14/18 ct / k gold for as little as a few pounds and, of course, that cannot be true
I think it should be 'buyer beware' with most of the cheap Hong Kong/Chinese stuff im afraid and in the long run I think it is better to order from a reputable UK supplier to ensure you are actually getting what you pay for... ;)
As some would say: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!!"
awkwardbydesign
28-05-2014, 18:48
My latest interconnect is sounding pretty darned good.
It's made using these plugs - Cheap carbon bodied plugs (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331016998934?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) and this cable - Awesome cable (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271124350801?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
I don't think that the plugs are pure copper as stated in the advert, but what do you expect from eBay? I think next time I'll go for either KLE Harmony from a known and trusted source, or a decent WBT or WBT style plug. The Furutech Carbon plugs are far too much money!
In fact the cheap carbon plugs are too wide to fit comfortably next to each other in the RCA sockets, so they will need to be changed very soon. Chalk that one down to experience.
LOL! I bought some cheap binding posts which said "OFC" and when I filed them they were brass. Not a problem at that price. But I sent a message to the seller suggesting he might want to change the description, in case someone (else) filed a complaint. When I tried to buy some more, to match, a couple of years later, I found out he had banned me! I had to use my wife's account. Silly billy, and I hadn't left negative feedback either! To some, OFC and NOS are just terms to sell more.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-B-Systems-OFC-Matt-Gold-Plate-Binding-Post-4-pcs-/251344407082?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item3a854b4a2a
I've just had a look at the inside of my Eichmann plugs and the MS Audio ones are identical in every respect.
I have just ordered some, so that's good to hear.
I've just had a look at the inside of my Eichmann plugs and the MS Audio ones are identical in every respect.
Indeed... Now, regardless of anything else, that's something worth celebrating!
It's proof that genuine 'posh plugs' (unfortunately not those Furutech fakes you bought, Kevin) can be had for buttons (£3.50 each), which effectively means that all decent cables, currently fitted with, let's call them, 'unremarkable plugs', can be significantly upgraded, sonically, for next to nothing! Hey, I'm sure that even SSPs would even benefit.... ;)
Anyway, I've been a little quiet on this thread recently, basically because I've been taking my time assessing the various cable options I've put forward for testing. In that respect, conclusions have now been reached and a decision made on which cables will eventually be getting fitted with my chosen Furutech CF-126(R) plugs. There will be a full summary tomorrow, folks, so watch this space!
Marco.
...... There will be a full summary tomorrow, folks, so watch this space!
Marco.
We'll be holding you to that Marco. :popcorn:
I've just had a look at the inside of my Eichmann plugs and the MS Audio ones are identical in every respect.
Correction - on closer inspection they aren't identical -just very similar. The differences centre on the construction of the return connector.
Lol - what are you like! :eyebrows:
Anyway, I presume that this will be the design feature, already discussed, that was attempting to be improved on from the Eichmanns?
Marco.
Indeed... Now, regardless of anything else, that's something worth celebrating!
It's proof that genuine 'posh plugs' (unfortunately not those Furutech fakes you bought, Kevin) can be had for buttons (£3.50 each), which effectively means that all decent cables, currently fitted with, let's call them, 'unremarkable plugs', can be significantly upgraded, sonically, for next to nothing! Hey, I'm sure that even SSPs would even benefit.... ;)
Anyway, I've been a little quiet on this thread recently, basically because I've been taking my time assessing the various cable options I've put forward for testing. In that respect, conclusions have now been reached and a decision made on which cables will eventually be getting fitted with my chosen Furutech CF-126(R) plugs. There will be a full summary tomorrow, folks, so watch this space!
Marco.
Sorry I have not followed every twist and turn of this post, but does this mean plugs may be more important than the cable regarding SQ?
Nope... However, IME, in terms of the overall equation, their intrinsic quality (or otherwise) is equally as important.
Essentially, the wire used on a pair of audio interconnects is only as good as the accompanying plugs *allow* it to be (also how well the plugs have been soldered on, and which type of solder has been used for the job)! :)
The fact is that ALL plugs are a necessary evil (if you don't want to go down the hard-wiring route). Therefore, the 'best' ones are simply those which impede the audio signal the least - and in that respect, in terms of their efficacy, experiments have shown that there exists some fundamental differences between various types of RCA plugs.
Furthermore, you can have the best wire and plugs in the world, and the whole lot can be ruined with poor assembly. At the end of the day, with interconnect cables, it's about the SUM of the parts used, and how well everything has been put together, not simply the parts themselves.
Marco.
Anyway, I presume that this will be the design feature, already discussed, that was attempting to be improved on from the Eichmanns?
Marco.
No, not as such. The feature MS Audio allude to is the petal shape of the return grip. Unlike a standard RCA the return element is divided into two discrete elements (this is true of all Eichmann type plugs); there is a single metal contact (this only makes the electrical contact and does not provide the grip), and then there is a plastic grip element. In the case of the MS Audio this plastic element is petal shaped and in the case of the Eichmann's it is a split circle - the actual functionality of both is very similar.
The difference I am referring to is between the return conductor pins. On the Eichmann's this is a solid pin machined to shape, on the MS Audio it looks to be a small strip that is pressed into shape.
In my system to my ears, I am really struggling to tell a big difference between the VD XKE and Klotz AC110. Any difference is very slight. The VD may have slightly better sparkle/detail, but we are talking very slight.
So I just looked at the construction/specifications, they are very similar with the same number of conductors. The difference is that a few of the VD being silver plated. The screen and insulation are the same.
Compare these two to the NVA Super Sound cords, and they both seem to lack a bit of depth in comparison. The SSC have more fine detail and better clarity and spacing of instruments.
The SSC are based on RG316U cable, which is wired in a shotgun configuration. It uses relatively cheap gold plated plugs, but it does sound better than my two pro grade studio cables (The VD was DIY and the Klotz purchased from Musicable in France, through eBay).
Then we move to the Furutech FA-220 cable. I much prefer the sound this cable lets me hear. As I have said before, it lets more detail flow through. There is also an increase in the soundstage, clarity and instrument spacing. It's not massively better than the SSC, but it just has the edge for me. When we look at the price of the cable, it's significantly more expensive than any of the other cables here. The law of diminishing returns comes into play. It cost me £15 per metre as opposed to the £1.20 that the VD cost. I am unsure of the cost of the RG316U, but being a Milspec cable I expect it to be more than the VD and Klotz, but a lot less than the Furutech.
The intention of this thread for me, was to find a good sounding interconnect that I could use through my entire system without breaking the bank. The differences in my system are relatively small. I think the Pro grade cables give about 90% of what the SSC offers, and the SSC about 90% of what the FA-220 gives me. However, the interesting thing about HiFi is that it's all system, and more importantly, end user dependant. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
...
The difference I am referring to is between the return conductor pins. On the Eichmann's this is a solid pin machined to shape, on the MS Audio it looks to be a small strip that is pressed into shape.
Yes, I've already given my thoughts on the two designs and posted a picture of the MS return 'pin' (including wear) back on Page 57 ;)
I've now made up my DIY Silver Streaks and will also test a pseudo balanced cable using VD XKE Microphone cable, then I'll be done as I'm rapidly losing interest LOL!
Kevin, presumably you have wired up the Furutech with one of the twisted centre cores as the + and the other as the return, the braid being connected at one end as a shield?
It would be very interesting if you could also try wiring it up with both centre conductors as the + and the braid as the return - this would likely provide lower capacitance.
http://www.douglasconnection.com/images/FA-220-B2.jpg
Interesting stuff, Kevin. At the end of the day, you can only tell it as you hear it! :)
In my system to my ears, I am really struggling to tell a big difference between the VD XKE and Klotz AC110. Any difference is very slight. The VD may have slightly better sparkle/detail, but we are talking very slight.
So I just looked at the construction/specifications, they are very similar with the same number of conductors. The difference is that a few of the VD being silver plated. The screen and insulation are the same.
Are the VD and Klotz cables fitted with the same plugs? If not, that's another important variable to consider. I also suspect that a goodly does of the 'magic' I'm hearing in my system with the Klotz cables is down to the MS plugs fitted, or perhaps rather the sonic synergy achieved between both components.
For me, one has to look at the construction of cables as a 'system', the same as anything else in audio...
Marco.
Yes, I've already given my thoughts on the two designs and posted a picture of the MS return 'pin' (including wear) back on Page 57 ;)
So you did :).
To be honest, an element of sacrificial wear seems inevitable with RCA plug/sockets no matter how they are constructed. I'm seriously considering binning them altogether in my system and going entirely over to BNC, or perhaps the Lemo I have ordered for my arm project.
Kevin, presumably you have wired up the Furutech with one of the twisted centre cores as the + and the other as the return, the braid being connected at one end as a shield?
It would be very interesting if you could also try wiring it up with both centre conductors as the + and the braid as the return - this would likely provide lower capacitance.
http://www.douglasconnection.com/images/FA-220-B2.jpg
I did. I will try that when the MS Audio plugs arrive, as I really don't like these fake carbon bling plugs. They work, but they are not easy to fit.
I was also thinking of trying the two conductors as + and - and not connecting the braid at all. Is there any reason not to do this?
I have my own thoughts as to why it has been done the way I have in the past, but surely lower capacitance in a low RFI/EMI environment is favourable?
Sometimes I feel like building everything into one big box and doing away with most of the connectors. Pretty much back to the radiogram as discussed elsewhere.
I was also thinking of trying the two conductors as + and - and not connecting the braid at all. Is there any reason not to do this?
Nope, worth giving it a go.
I have my own thoughts as to why it has been done the way I have in the past, but surely lower capacitance in a low RFI/EMI environment is favourable?
yes, I would have thought so too. spacing the + and return gives lower capacitance but increased inductance. However, in the case of an interconnect, inductance seems to be less relevant than capacitance (IME). Ideally you want the return to have a lower impedance than the + and it may also be worth trying just one of the centre cores connected to the ) with the other completely unused and the braid used as the return.
Mark, I think/suspect that doubling the centre conductors as you suggest adds to the capacitance. I suggest this because Cable Talk interconnects (the ones above the infamous Monitor 2 anyway) did similar things inside (custom construction by BICC I think) and had higher than average capacitance as a result (I'm using memories of old Paul Miller tests as reference). Well worth trying out though, but these days, I respectfully suggest the simplest means of wiring up as possible to minimise variables.
Like Cagey above, I bought a set of Sound Cords (and another shorter set from a kind member here) and think they're really excellent value, not just in the recommended application/system, but also in a non-standard lash-up such as I have. For £20 online they're a no-brainer for those who can't make up their own interconnects - and yes, I still rate the MG HD1000 at double the price highly! The MG will tend to show up/magnify? scrappy treble in digital sources though in my opinion, the SC reproducing the dirt, but not in a spot-lit way in comparison.
Capacitance increases with the relative proximity of the + and return, not the relative proximity of two cables joined at each end to form just the + (or return) - that is my understanding.
these days, I respectfully suggest the simplest means of wiring up as possible to minimise variables.
I don't know what you mean by 'the simplest means', surely one configuration is as simple as another to wire up - it just depends which wires are twisted together. If you don't try different wiring configurations then I suppose you could say variables are minimised - but then so is any investigation which seems rather pointless!
....
It would be very interesting if you could also try wiring it up with both centre conductors as the + and the braid as the return - this would likely provide lower capacitance.
That gives the highest capacitance ;) nearly double that of using it as a single core with the shield (lowest capacitance) as a return. Pseudo balanced, one core connected to the shield at one end only and the other core used as the + only adds a few more pF to the single core arrangement....
.......
I was also thinking of trying the two conductors as + and - and not connecting the braid at all. Is there any reason not to do this?
I have my own thoughts as to why it has been done the way I have in the past, but surely lower capacitance in a low RFI/EMI environment is favourable?
This will give you lowest capacitance but no shielding. I think capacitance is a bit of red herring TBH, for instance the VD Silver Lo-cap (55pF) cable measures the same as the Kimber Silver Streak I have and yet sounds obviously different...unless you have a high output impedance from the source a 100 or 120pf 1m cable is not going to cause a roll off in the audio band that is noticeable.
That gives the highest capacitance ;) nearly double that of using it as a single core with the shield (lowest capacitance) as a return.
I think perhaps you misunderstand me. Why would using two twisted wires (compared to one) as the + (connected to + at each end) double the capacitance? Surely the capacitance of the cable is relative to the proximity of the + and return?
I think perhaps you misunderstand me. Why would using two twisted wires (compared to one) as the + (connected to + at each end) double the capacitance? Surely the capacitance of the cable is relative to the proximity of the + and return?
I understand you! It's a good question, it's not quite double though, my apologies, on this Shark cable sample its 72% more capacitance:
The two center core wires connected together...
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_2303.jpg
Single Core and shield...
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_2305.jpg
The capacitance is increased because in twisting the two inner cores together, you are effectively creating a single core having double the cross sectional area, and hence in closer proximity to the shield.
Ah yes, thank you for the clear explanation guys - I hadn't considered the effective increase in conductor area relative to the the distance between + and return - of course, makes sense.
====
Although the Shark cable used in the example increases capacitance by 72%, the percentage of difference presumably varies from one cable to another depending on the cross section of the combined conductors and the relative distance of the + and return?
Please don't forget the added capacitance of some RCA plugs. It's twenty years since I did this, but some good looking plugs in the upper-cheap bracket (a fiver or so each) had nearly three times the capacitance (around 200pf IIRC) each when compared to the likes of the cheapo Neutrik from memory.
Maybe NRG could try measuring a few to see if my comments above have any meaning today?
pitadavespa
29-05-2014, 16:24
Please don't forget the added capacitance of some RCA plugs. It's twenty years since I did this, but some good looking plugs in the upper-cheap bracket (a fiver or so each) had nearly three times the capacitance (around 200pf IIRC) each when compared to the likes of the cheapo Neutrik from memory.
Maybe NRG could try measuring a few to see if my comments above have any meaning today?
NRG, I'd love to see those results too.
Thanks. ;)
slightly off-topic and out of curiosity but why do most amps still have unbalanced circuits for RCA connectors which are much more sensitive to noise than balanced XLR connectors ? Do unbalanced circuits sound better ?
Balanced circuits are more expensive to build as they use extra components. Fully balanced circuits use double the components, and many of these have to be matched to a very tight tolerance.
I think balanced circuits can sound better but others may disagree.
I've never seen an RCA plug with 200pF of capacitance! A very quick check of some plugs I have to hand shows anywhere between 5~7pF
Eichmann / MS 5pF
Kimber Ultra Plate 6pF
Chord 6pF
Profogold(!?) 6.5pF
Large Shark plug (heavy construction, lots of metal, like the carbon fibre plugs up thread) 7pF
My Neutrik plugs are still attached but I suspect they are around 6pF as well...
That's more or less what I would expect - and I'm not going to worry about a pF or two!
Thanks for going to the trouble of measurement Neal.
Cheers Barry. Interestingly a socket measures about 8pF and with say an Eichmann plugged in they measure 10pF together.
I've now made a set using the XKE Microphone cable configured with the shield connected at one end only. This is a really good cable IMHO it's not quite as bright in the treble or seemingly as dynamic as the Kimbers it sounds a touch smooth in comparison but it's just as detailed and it conveys vocal emotion and inflections much better than the Kimber . I think it betters the XKE instrument cable as well. It offers a more engaging presentation but some may find it a little smooth for their liking.
I like using microphone cable: it is soft and very flexible and the employment of a semi-conducting anti-triboelectric layer between the dielectric and screen seems a good idea. Cables I have made up using this, and others by Klotz and Gotham, have been very well received by other listeners (with one exception).
I do not see (or hear) the need to spend vast amounts of money on interconnects. Perfectly good interconnects can be made using cable supplied to the recording industry and broadcasters and/or cable used in the aerospace industry (such as some of the RG series cables).
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2014, 17:04
I used a lot of Beyer microphone cable a long time ago. It was very good. Flexible, as you say, and easy to work with.
I've never seen an RCA plug with 200pF of capacitance! A very quick check of some plugs I have to hand shows anywhere between 5~7pF
Eichmann / MS 5pF
Kimber Ultra Plate 6pF
Chord 6pF
Profogold(!?) 6.5pF
Large Shark plug (heavy construction, lots of metal, like the carbon fibre plugs up thread) 7pF
My Neutrik plugs are still attached but I suspect they are around 6pF as well...
Thanks for that, Neal - most interesting! It would equally be interesting to measure the capacitance of the solid-copper Furutech and Eichmann RCA sockets I have fitted to my equipment, which should also measure lower than the 'throwaway' brass ones that feature on most commercially produced gear.
What intrigues me most is that, up until a few days ago, when Luis pointed out that plug materials affect cable capacitance, I was completely unaware of the phenomenon - *yet* I could quite clearly, and repeatedly, hear the sonic effect of such in my system....
I've been going on for ages about heavy metal plugs sounding crap, in comparison with their lighter, less metal-content counterparts, so it's nice to have some objective proof to confirm what my ears have been telling me for quite some time! :)
Anyway, my apologies for the delay in posting my thoughts on the cable comparisons I've been conducting, but alas real life sometimes gets in the way... I promise that I'll get round to doing it ASAP :cool:
Marco.
cyclopse
31-05-2014, 08:50
Thanks for that, Neal - most interesting! It would equally be interesting to measure the capacitance of the solid-copper Furutech and Eichmann RCA sockets I have fitted to my equipment, which should also measure lower than the 'throwaway' brass ones that feature on most commercially produced gear.
What intrigues me most is that, up until a few days ago, when Luis pointed out that plug materials affect cable capacitance, I was completely unaware of the phenomenon - *yet* I could quite clearly, and repeatedly, hear the sonic effect of such in my system....
I've been going on for ages about heavy metal plugs sounding crap, in comparison with their lighter, less metal-content counterparts, so it's nice to have some objective proof to confirm what my ears have been telling me for quite some time! :)
Anyway, my apologies for the delay in posting my thoughts on the cable comparisons I've been conducting, but alas real life sometimes gets in the way... I promise that I'll get round to doing it ASAP :cool:
Marco.
The suspense is killing me
To NRG - Thanks for doing this comparison. I must have got my wires crossed - it was twenty years ago and several lives have passed since then...
The suspense is killing me
Lol... I'll relieve your suspenders after lunch! We're just popping into Chester, to do some shopping, and then enjoy some nice food at our favourite French restaurant:
http://www.laptitefrance.co.uk/
À bientôt, mes amis! :cheers:
Marco.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 11:53
Good idea.. never choose interconnects on an empty tummy :)
Lol... I'll relieve your suspenders after lunch! We're just popping into Chester, to do some shopping, and then enjoy some nice food at our favourite French restaurant:
http://www.laptitefrance.co.uk/
À bientôt, mes amis! :cheers:
Marco.
We were thinking of a day up to Chester soon, think I will look this restaurant out. Tres bon!
It would make a nice change to not have French cuisine when I go out for a meal :eyebrows:
We were thinking of a day up to Chester soon, think I will look this restaurant out. Tres bon!
Very authentic and highly recommended, Jim! The house wine is also rather splendid (always a sign of good restaurant, in my experience).
Marco.
It would make a nice change to not have French cuisine when I go out for a meal :eyebrows:
Yes, you must be rather tired of the old froggy cuisine... One can sometimes get too much of a good thing. As much as I love fine French food, I know that whenever I've spent a fortnight in France, the first thing I want when I get home is a bloody good curry!! :exactly:
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
31-05-2014, 16:37
It would make a nice change to not have French cuisine when I go out for a meal :eyebrows:
When you are down our way, its a speciality of the house. The fresh parathas and onion bhajis are our stock in trade. Oooh I am starting to taste it. Kitchen is gonna pong tomorrow:cool:
There are a couple of guys from the UK who have opened up some curry houses down here.
We also have an English butcher for sausages and bacon.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Now, tell me about the interconnects.
The Black Adder
31-05-2014, 16:44
There are a couple of guys from the UK who have opened up some curry houses down here.
We also have an English butcher for sausages and bacon.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Now, tell me about the interconnects.
Our friends in Moncontour have a fish n chip van that goes round the village, they do a roaring trade with the locals.
When you are down our way, its a speciality of the house. The fresh parathas and onion bhajis are our stock in trade. Oooh I am starting to taste it. Kitchen is gonna pong tomorrow:cool:
When I am "up" your way, Jenlain Ambre and onion bhajis whilst listening to your speakers sounds superb!
Gordon Steadman
31-05-2014, 17:21
When I am "up" your way, Jenlain Ambre and onion bhajis whilst listening to your speakers sounds superb!
Ah twit, for some reason I keep thinking you are oop north.
Another good cheap wire I've found is the Van Damme 'Plasma' cable. A thinner video coax, so a naturally wide bandwidth and not difficult to solder. Just thought I'd mention it if anybody wanted to try something else.
Nice one, Dave. One wonders how many different cables Van Damme produce! :eek:
Another quality studio cable that some folk rate is the Mogami Neglex. I've not tried it as stereo interconnects, but I have as a tonearm cable, and in that application it was ok but nothing special.
Marco.
Isn't the Neglex the cable often supplied(?) with our favourite Jelcos?
All I can add from a little experience is that used in balanced mode, these differences we hear in cables do seem to be dramatically minimised. I don't know the Neglex at all I'm afraid, so cannot comment further.
Isn't the Neglex the cable often supplied(?) with our favourite Jelcos?
Yup, and in my experience it's no more than 'average' sounding - easily bettered, for example, by an entry-level Jannis.
Marco.
Mr Kipling
01-06-2014, 00:33
What about cheapo balanced 300 ohm fm aerial cable? Max Townsend's first cable was this type - although black and with a foam strip separating the two conductors. DNM's were also of this type, I think.
What about cheapo balanced 300 ohm fm aerial cable? Max Townsend's first cable was this type - although black and with a foam strip separating the two conductors. DNM's were also of this type, I think.
These were all the rage for a few months back in the mid '80s.
Apart from the ones you have mentioned there are other interconnects that don't use a conventional screen or shield. Some are of the opinion that the presence of a screen is detrimental to the SQ.
Out of curiousity, I'm having some cables made up using 300 Ohm aerial feeder.
What about cheapo balanced 300 ohm fm aerial cable? Max Townsend's first cable was this type - although black and with a foam strip separating the two conductors. DNM's were also of this type, I think.
I listened to the first set Max put together, at his home about 25 or more years ago. It was (I can't recall how many) lengths of standard aerial cable side by side, usd as speaker cable- he called it a 'scalextric track'. I can't say what the cable was like as such, but the system overall was pretty good.
What about cheapo balanced 300 ohm fm aerial cable? Max Townsend's first cable was this type - although black and with a foam strip separating the two conductors. DNM's were also of this type, I think.
The DNM is just two solid cores widely spaced - not coaxial like aerial cable.
The DNM is just two solid cores widely spaced - not coaxial like aerial cable.
The "aerial cable" in this context is 300 Ohm ribbon feeder: the kind supplied with many Japanese tuners. The aerial is intended for indoor use and consists of a folded quarter wave dipole. The ribbon feeder is simply two solid cores separated by a plastic strip, the dimension are chosen so that the cable has a characteristic impedance of 300 Ohms.
Oh, yes, of course - I did wonder about aerial link - the DNM is just like the other ribbon aerial you mention - certainly the interconnect is.
300 Ohm cable works well as long as there's no taxi, fire/police service or other types of radio interference around. I suffered this with Naim (their Naic, Snaic and 250/135 interconnects weren't screened as I remember) and couldn't use this type of cable as an interconnect because of this - same for Nordost equivalents.
The DNM speaker cable worked well in short runs but any more than 5m could increase resistance too much and alter frequency response of the speakers - all documented. The legacy of this is that I do prefer less conductors of slightly higher gauge rather than 'millions' of thin strands. Can't say why, but just a feeling.
300 Ohm cable works well as long as there's no taxi, fire/police service or other types of radio interference around. I suffered this with Naim (their Naic, Snaic and 250/135 interconnects weren't screened as I remember) and couldn't use this type of cable as an interconnect because of this - same for Nordost equivalents.
The DNM speaker cable worked well in short runs but any more than 5m could increase resistance too much and alter frequency response of the speakers - all documented. The legacy of this is that I do prefer less conductors of slightly higher gauge rather than 'millions' of thin strands. Can't say why, but just a feeling.
Agreed - these ribbon-like cables have no mutual shielding, unlike tightly-twisted twin pairs. I have heard some unshielded interconnects (made by Chord) and they 'sound' fine to me (but no better than cables that were far cheaper). It was probably fortunate that the listening environment was free from EMI/RFI. I would expect such unshielded cables to be system and environment dependent.
Are you ever going to post these thoughts of yours Marco or is this one of those 'I'll come back to this later' instances?
Mr Kipling
01-06-2014, 15:36
300 Ohm cable works well as long as there's no taxi, fire/police service or other types of radio interference around. I suffered this with Naim (their Naic, Snaic and 250/135 interconnects weren't screened as I remember) and couldn't use this type of cable as an interconnect because of this - same for Nordost equivalents.
The DNM speaker cable worked well in short runs but any more than 5m could increase resistance too much and alter frequency response of the speakers - all documented. The legacy of this is that I do prefer less conductors of slightly higher gauge rather than 'millions' of thin strands. Can't say why, but just a feeling.
The original DNM speaker cable had a third conductor. The additional one allowed the cable to be part of the feedback loop.
Oh yes. didn't DPA* do something similar, I seem to remember? DNM seem to have abandoned the third wire idea now though remain true to most of their other ideas.
* DPA reemerged a couple of years ago and I saw them at a couple of shows - they seem to have disappeared again since.
The original DNM speaker cable had a third conductor. The additional one allowed the cable to be part of the feedback loop.
I would have thought including the speaker cable in the feedback loop would require some modification of the amplifier (especially one using valves and an output transformer). I have seen a Quad II amp that was modified to allow the speaker leads to be part of the feedback loop; although I can't tell you how it was modified. If anyone is interested and if I can find the web-site, I'll let you know.
Mr Kipling
01-06-2014, 17:25
The third conductor was only intended to be used with DNM's own amps. Using the cable with other amps, the extra conductor wasn't used.
I did once try modifying the feedback loop to incorporate the speaker cables. It did seem to make an improvement.
Lol... I'll relieve your suspenders after lunch! We're just popping into Chester, to do some shopping, and then enjoy some nice food at our favourite French restaurant:
http://www.laptitefrance.co.uk/
À bientôt, mes amis! :cheers:
Marco.
We are all still in suspense. Do you need a few more weeks to make your mind up?
Yes come on Marco - pull your finger out! ;)
I reckon he's stuck in that restaurant. :drunk:
Yes come on Marco - pull your finger out! ;)
Leave him alone, he might be enjoying where his finger currently is :eyebrows:
Hehehehe... Yesh baby, do you wanna shniff it? :eyebrows:
Anyway, folks, the best things in life come to those who wait, so..........! ;)
Marco.
If you want to know the results, phone me, as that will be much quicker. I'm not adopting stalling tactics - I simply don't have the time at the moment (with all that I've got going on) to type out a proper response! Hopefully that will change tomorrow.
Marco.
Ok folks, due to time constraints, I'm going to keep this reasonably short and sweet... The cables and plugs tested during this small experiment of determining which (high-quality) cables, often used in studios, also make top-notch hi-fi interconnects, are as follows:
Gotham GAC-1 Pro (with stock plugs) - very good indeed, and in the context of my system, bettered some much more expensive 'hi-fi-badged' varieties, costing up to £900. These have an excellent overall balanced, tuneful and musical sound, producing no emphasis on any part of the frequency range. In summary, the Gothams are an engaging listen, if ultimately limited (and slightly veiled), in terms of absolute resolution and high-frequency detail retrieval, compared with the other cables tested. Verdict: 8/10.
Van Damme Black Ultra (with stock plugs) - superb in almost every way: a veritable hi-fi bargain. Beautifully detailed and sweet sounding cables, with extended highs and an addictive 'treble sparkle', which with music reproduced, subjectively translates as superior and more realistic leading-edge definition. These cables let the signal through and allow music to flow in a seemingly uninhibited way. They are let down only, I suspect, by the poor quality plugs fitted as standard, which from experience, I can detect add a slightly 'gritty' and 'opaque' quality to the sonic presentation of the UBs, when compared with the best here. Verdict: 9/10.
Van Damme LC-OFC Twin 'Total Definition' (with stock Neutrik/Rean plugs) - this is probably one of the most nicely balanced, tonally neutral, vice-free cables I've ever heard! Arguably, these don't quite have the overall 'crispness' or 'treble sparkle' of the VD UBs, but sonically, they sound very 'unforced'; not in a rolled-off or bland way, but rather that one is very able to focus on the music and forget all about the sonic attributes of the cables. As such, detail and clarity is excellent, but not in any way 'obvious'. The net effect of this is that it enables one to 'relax into' the music. I suspect that the better quality plugs fitted (compared with those supplied with the Gothams and VDs) are a contributory factor towards the excellent results obtained. Verdict: 9/10.
Klotz AC-110 guitar cable (with MS Audio 'Star Line' Rhodium-plated Tellurium Copper plugs) - these, in my system, are undoubtedly the best of the bunch, and by a considerable margin (and also more than I'm able to reflect in any numerical rating). When listening to a whole raft of varied and very familiar pieces of music recently, with these cables 'at the helm', as it were, I've been gob-smacked at the results, with what after all are cables that cost £1.73 per metre, plus £3.50 each for the plugs... In essence then, we have here a 1m pair of high-quality audio interconnects for considerably less than £20!!!! :eek: :eek:
In the context of my (£30k+) system, these cables do everything (and more) that I've heard so far from ANY so-called 'high-end' audio interconnects... Clarity and detail retrieval are in the first rank, providing near-microscopic insight into all programme material. Midrange information, such as voices and acoustic instruments, are reproduced vividly and fluidly, and thus succeed to communicate in recordings every ounce of emotion portrayed by the artist(s). There is never any artificial emphasis on, or overhang present with low frequencies, which are unfailingly rendered as tight, extended and tuneful.
However, what these cables do, which so far I've not heard from any other interconnects, regardless of price (and I suspect much of it is down to the superb plugs), is in presenting all genres of music in the most addictively open, lucid and effortlessly musical way, seemingly as if the distortions normally associated with the use of other cables, has been 'magically' stripped away, allowing for a cleaner, clearer and ultimately more accurate rendition of all forms of recorded music. This makes for an extremely addictive listen, as the sound produced by one's system just seems so uncannily 'right'. The resulting effect, therefore, is often extended music listening sessions well into the small hours of the morning!! Verdict: 10/10.
I could say much more about these superb cables, and no doubt will do so during the course of this discussion.
However, make no mistake: the combination of the Klotz cable in question, and the MS Audio plugs, produces a set of stereo interconnects at a stupidly cheap price that (unless the sound of your system has been tailored around a tone control effect) can compete with pretty much anything else that's out there. The MS Audio plugs, however, could well be the stars of the show, as I get the distinct feeling that how they've been designed, and the materials used, is having a major impact on their sonic performance.
The proof of the pudding however, in that respect, will be when the Furutech CF-126 plugs enter the equation, which I intend to fit to both the Klotz and Van Damme UB cables, and then compare them directly against each other (particularly to assess the superiority between the Furutech and MS Audio plugs). That process will be carried out in an effort to identify which of these cables results in producing the best possible sonic performance, and crucially the highest SPPV: a principle which is at the very core of the AoS ethos. We are not here to promote 'blingly badge-fi'.
My cable experiments have been fun so far, folks, but I suspect that there's still much more to come......! ;)
Marco.
Interesting. I'll try the plugs on my cables and see if they make a difference.
Do you think it will be worth trying the KLE Pure Harmony plugs before commiting to the obscenely expensive Furutech jobbies?
brian2957
02-06-2014, 15:24
Excellent write up Marco . I've been following this thread with interest and have tried the cables you refer to here . I was also quite surprised with the results I got with these cables , however it was the Klotz / MS Audio plugs combination which really made me sit up and take notice . I'm now using them in my system and they're exceptional at any price :)
Klotz have been well respected in pro circles for many years now, but I had to make my own up (with stock Neutrik plugs, which the cable just fits into). Not bad for a fivers worth of bits (maybe a tenner including P&P as I bought a 2m length and not a drum, plus my own labour of course to make them up).
I've not done anything yet with the Klotz cable I have - perhaps I should.
I found the Klotz very similar to the VD XKE cable. It would be interesting to see if the VD XKE cable with the MS Audio plugs gave similar results. So much so, I have ordered another set so I can do a direct comparison between the Klotz and VD. However, I think my leads will still be made from the more expensive FA-220 cable. The winner of the VD vs Klotz comparison will be put up against the Furutech cable, all with the same plugs fitted. This is the only true test of the cable for me.
I have had too many different combinations of cables and plugs for it to be really meaningful. Personally, I don't believe that a plug can make that much difference, but I am happy to be proved wrong.
As my equipment still runs the standard sockets, I see no point is spending massive amount on the plug, so I am hoping that these MS Audio plugs turn out to be a real HiFi bargain.
I caved in and orders some AC-110 and I think I'll round off with some Mogami 2549 if I can find it in the UK, seems the US is the only place to get it...the XKE Microphone cable continues to intrigue me, what I need now is a cable with the properties of both the Kimber and XKE and I could be 'done'! :D
Nice one, Neal. The Van Damme XKE microphone cable is a bit of a find, isn't it? I guess that's the reward one gets for applying some lateral thinking, and not simply presuming that expensive 'hi-fi-branded' cables are always going to be the best bet! ;)
It's difficult for me to ascertain which is the better wire, as it were, between the XKE and Klotz, because I've only heard the latter fitted with some superb plugs (MS Audio), whereas I've only used the former, so far, with the stock (somewhat unremarkable) plugs, supplied with the cables as stereo interconnects, by A1 Audio.
I'm convinced, however, that there's probably not much in it, in terms of sonic superiority, between the XKE and Klotz, and so much of what is considered as 'better' will come down to the plugs fitted. That's why I'll probably be fitting MS Audio and Fututech plugs to both those cables, and then doing a direct comparison between them, where the only variable is the plugs, before arriving at a proper conclusion as to which cables, in my system, are best.
I look forward to reading about your own findings in due course :)
Marco.
Incidentally, what's your view (and also that of others) on this Klotz cable, which is said to be better than the AC-110: http://www.studiospares.com/cable-balanced-/klotz-mc5000-mic-+-line-cable/invt/544600
More (technical) info here: http://shop.klotz-ais.com/quickorder/artikelpdf/MC5000__f.pdf
It's certainly double the price! I'm wondering, however, if there's anything about its construction and/or electrical characteristics that would make it superior for audio purposes to the AC-110?
Marco.
They're two different types of cable Marco: the AC100 is single core coaxial cable, the MC5000 is twin-core screened cable. The latter is intended for balanced systems, though you could wire it in the so-called semi-balanced configuration using RCA phono plugs.
Thanks for that, Barry. I wonder if there would be any merit, sonically, in doing so - in such a way that it would offer a potentially audible advantage over the AC110, fitted with the same plugs?
Marco.
As discussed, I am probably going to order some to try anyway. It's not expensive, so a couple of metres won't break the bank. My intention was to go semi-balanced with one conductor and screen acting as the ground on one end, and just the conductor at the other. I could also try just the conductors and ignore the braided screen.
I have ordered some MC5000 from a source in France, and a bit more AC110 to have a play.
I'll post my findings when all of the bits come together, and if it's possible to do what I want to try. All will be revealed in due course. It may turn out to be a complete flop, but that is part of the fun.
The Black Adder
03-06-2014, 20:19
Hi all.
I have moved a good section of the 'I'm Thinking of a couple of new interconnects' thread in to this to discuss studio interconnect cables/plugs and the tests involved with them.
Hope I've done this right... lol :) - If not, let me know.
Cheers
Joe
The Black Adder
03-06-2014, 20:42
lol.. ok.. Think I'z done it. :)
Carry on ladies and gents.
But it's all disjointed now? :ner:
:lol:
Whats going on! Now we have two threads and my posts about the same subject are split across both of 'em :doh:
Lol...He's only learning! Joe, you've still got some posts that are relevant to the studio cables test over on the other thread, so ya gots ta move 'em over here :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
03-06-2014, 21:50
Really sorry about this chaps, please accept my apologies. As Marco said, I'm learning how to do this for the first time.
Right, I think I've got everything now... How's it looking?
Cheers
Joe
anthonyTD
04-06-2014, 08:49
The one main flaw that no one seems to acknowledge when speaking about interconnects is the plug and socket chosen on most audio equipment,The RCA plug and socket or Phono system is far from ideal, hence IMHO the real reason interconnects make such a wide variation of difference,The differences cable make in Audio replay systems is mostly secondary to the plug in almost every experiment i have conducted over the years, now, if we remove the biggest culprit of these variations, ie; the plug and socket system, and replace it with something better, ie BNC then i am sure those differences we perceive in cables would be even smaller!
A...
The one main flaw that no one seems to acknowledge when speaking about interconnects is the plug and socket chosen on most audio equipment,The RCA plug and socket or Phono system is far from ideal, hence IMHO the real reason interconnects make such a wide variation of difference,The differences cable make in Audio replay systems is mostly secondary to the plug in almost every experiment i have conducted over the years, now, if we remove the biggest culprit of these variations, ie; the plug and socket system, and replace it with something better, ie BNC then i am sure those differences we perceive in cables would be even smaller!
A...
Just to clarify you comments Anthony, are you saying the plugs make more difference than the cable? I only ask as this was something I proposed earlier in the Post but it was only my suspicion:eyebrows:
Ideally maybe it would be best to hardwire an IC from one component to another?
brian2957
04-06-2014, 09:25
Yes hard wiring would be the best solution . However not possible , nor convenient , in most peoples systems . So the only other answer IMO is to get the best plug possible for the least money spent. The MS Audio Rhodium plated plugs fit the bill perfectly here . I've tried these plugs on several cables now and they have audibly improved every set of cables I have fitted them to . I know nothing of measurements or quality control , I just know what my ears hear , and that's good enough for me .
anthonyTD
04-06-2014, 09:35
Hi James,
Yes, from experience, that is my findings...
A...
Just to clarify you comments Anthony, are you saying the plugs make more difference than the cable? I only ask as this was something I proposed earlier in the Post but it was only my suspicion:eyebrows:
Ideally maybe it would be best to hardwire an IC from one component to another?
anthonyTD
04-06-2014, 10:13
Another rather worrying thing about the way certain cables have been promoted lately is down to how people perceive the differences heard, and the reasons why some of its promoters try to justify the reasons for those differences etc. IMHO if a cable carries or reveals the same characteristics from a £100 system, to a £10000 system, then it does indeed have a character of its own, and therefore, is not Neutral as some would have you believe, no cable [and i am talking about the cable as a whole, ie, plugs, type of solder etc] is neutral, it just has a different character to another, and if it does highlight, or bring out information otherwise, masked or hidden by another cable, then it is doing this because it has a character, and by highlighting different information in recordings it is almost definitely doing so at the expense of something else...
A...
The one main flaw that no one seems to acknowledge when speaking about interconnects is the plug and socket chosen on most audio equipment,The RCA plug and socket or Phono system is far from ideal, hence IMHO the real reason interconnects make such a wide variation of difference,The differences cable make in Audio replay systems is mostly secondary to the plug in almost every experiment i have conducted over the years, now, if we remove the biggest culprit of these variations, ie; the plug and socket system, and replace it with something better, ie BNC then i am sure those differences we perceive in cables would be even smaller!
:thumbsup:
That's exactly what my experience has told me. This, too:
Another rather worrying thing about the way certain cables have been promoted lately is down to how people perceive the differences heard, and the reasons why some of its promoters try to justify the reasons for those differences etc. IMHO if a cable carries or reveals the same characteristics from a £100 system, to a £10000 system, then it does indeed have a character of its own, and therefore, is not Neutral as some would have you believe, no cable [and i am talking about the cable as a whole, ie, plugs, type of solder etc] is neutral, it just has a different character to another, and if it does highlight, or bring out information otherwise, masked or hidden by another cable, then it is doing this because it has a character, and by highlighting different information in recordings it is almost definitely doing so at the expense of something else...
I would also add that any cables which are claimed by their users to dramatically improve the sound of their system, such as by an order of magnitude greater than that achieved by any other cables they've used previously, unless the previous cables were no better suited for audio purposes than a stick of liquorice, is either a fantasist or the owner of a fatally flawed hi-fi system.
Quite simply, under normal circumstances, i.e. in a properly sorted hi-fi system, fully functioning and correctly designed interconnect cables, for audio use, are not capable of radically altering the sound, unless something serious elsewhere in the system is broken.
Sorry, but it needs to be said!
Marco.
istari_knight
04-06-2014, 19:40
I would also add that any cables which are claimed by their users to dramatically improve the sound of their system, such as by an order of magnitude greater than that achieved by any other cables they've used previously, unless the previous cables were no better suited for audio purposes than a stick of liquorice, is either a fantasist or the owner of a fatally flawed hi-fi system.
Quite simply, under normal circumstances, i.e. in a properly sorted hi-fi system, fully functioning and correctly designed interconnect cables, for audio use, are not capable of radically altering the sound, unless something serious elsewhere in the system is broken.
Sorry, but it needs to be said!
Marco.
:clap:
:exactly:
Hi Brian,
Nice chatting today, btw, mate! :)
Yes hard wiring would be the best solution . However not possible , nor convenient , in most peoples systems . So the only other answer IMO is to get the best plug possible for the least money spent. The MS Audio Rhodium plated plugs fit the bill perfectly here . I've tried these plugs on several cables now and they have audibly improved every set of cables I have fitted them to . I know nothing of measurements or quality control , I just know what my ears hear , and that's good enough for me .
Spot on - and I am in full agreement.
Experience gained from experimenting with cables, not just recently, but in the past, has definitely taught me that the quality of the plugs used can often make more of a difference to performance than the wire itself, quite simply because, as Anthony has pointed out, the area where potentially the biggest bottleneck occurs is when joining two audio components together, particularly when that joining is undertaken by something as intrinsically flawed for that purpose as an RCA plug and matching socket.
Therefore, the best designed RCA plugs (which more realistically should be referred to as the 'least bad') are those which, through judicious design, most successfully address the deficiencies of the traditional RCA plug, and therefore minimise the bottleneck that occurs, sonically, as a result of impeding the signal path, and thus degrading the integrity of the audio signal, when two pieces of equipment are joined together.
In my opinion, the MS Audio plugs are an excellent example of the above, as they successfully address many of the deficiencies of the 'common-or-garden' RCA plug, as indeed do the new KLE Harmony varieties, both of which are also very reasonably priced and vastly superior to the brass conductor, metal-heavy designed items, commonly supplied with most interconnect cables - even rather expensive ones!
RCA plug and socket design is where some of the most genuine innovation has occurred recently in the audio industry, so when some of the best examples of such are available for about the same price as a pint of beer, it's just plain daft not to embrace their sonic benefits!!
:exactly:
Marco.
That's exactly what my experience has told me. This, too:
I would also add that any cables which are claimed by their users to dramatically improve the sound of their system, such as by an order of magnitude greater than that achieved by any other cables they've used previously, unless the previous cables were no better suited for audio purposes than a stick of liquorice, is either a fantasist or the owner of a fatally flawed hi-fi system.
Quite simply, under normal circumstances, i.e. in a properly sorted hi-fi system, fully functioning and correctly designed interconnect cables, for audio use, are not capable of radically altering the sound, unless something serious elsewhere in the system is broken.
Sorry, but it needs to be said!
Marco.
I disagree entirely.
I am utterly bemused how changing cheap plugs can transform a cheap cable into something that it isn't and never will be, because it is still a cheap cable fitted with expensive plugs - you have only addressed ONE issue there while the other remains unresolved in my opinion.
I have never owned a "fatally flawed system", nor have I ever used sticks of liquorice as cables either, yet I have found a cable that has radically changed the sound of my system for the better. Even more galling is the fact that I am effectively censored from even mentioning this particular cable now, yet I have read this sort of tosh and kept quiet to leave you to your own devices. The statement I quote above is bordering on the offensive.
Wakefield Turntables
04-06-2014, 20:57
So its taken 71 pages of discussion to realise that getting rid of RCA's and hard wiring is essentially better than the RCA male / female interface. :doh: OK, I appreciate people like to experiment and try stuff (me included) and that hard wiring is not for everyone. If I was to start again I would quite simply hard wire and save several hundred quid and many hours worrying about RCA's.
Hi Frank,
I'll get to the "cheap cable/expensive plug" thing later. However, in the meantime...
I have never owned a "fatally flawed system", nor have I ever used sticks of liquorice as cables either, yet I have found a cable that has radically changed the sound of my system for the better.
I guess it boils down to semantics and our respective subjective definitions in that context of "radically" :)
Are you still up for having a temporary cable swap, where you agreed I would send you one of my bespoke 'studio specials' to try, and in turn I would audition your Slics?
I'll soon tell you then (and also all the members of AoS) if they RADICALLY improve the sound of my system - and if that happens, it'll be the first time I've experienced such a phenomenon in 30+ years of using high-end audio equipment! ;)
Even more galling is the fact that I am effectively censored from even mentioning this particular cable now, yet I have read this sort of tosh and kept quiet to leave you to your own devices. The statement I quote above is bordering on the offensive.
Tosh? Well... Now who is the one being offensive? Furthermore, no-one here has been censored from mentioning Slic, as long as it's in an appropriate context. Bev has recently done precisely that.
Marco.
Hi Frank,
I guess it boils down to semantics and our respective subjective definitions in that context of "radically" :)
Are you still up for having a temporary cable swap, where you agreed I would send you one of my bespoke 'studio specials' to try, and in turn I would audition your Slics?
I'll soon tell you then (and also all the members of AoS) if they RADICALLY improve the sound of my system - and if that happens, it'll be the first time I've experienced such a phenomenon in 30+ years of using high-end audio equipment! ;)
Tosh? Well... Now who is the one being offensive? Furthermore, no-one here has been censored from mentioning Slic, as long as it's in an appropriate context. Bev has recently done precisely that.
Marco.
Nothing at all to do with semantics Marco because I have some 45 years of using high end equipment AND having real first hand experience of serious money cables of all flavours through my hands than you could begin to imagine. Given that I now have a cable that transcends all of that in one single leap means it is just a tad more weight behind it than mere semantics.
Wakefield Turntables
04-06-2014, 21:29
Nothing at all to do with semantics Marco because I have some 45 years of using high end equipment AND having real first hand experience of serious money cables of all flavours through my hands than you could begin to imagine. Given that I now have a cable that transcends all of that in one single leap means it is just a tad more weight behind it than mere semantics.
:popcorn:
Is this the SLIC Frank?
The Black Adder
04-06-2014, 21:43
Nothing at all to do with semantics Marco because I have some 45 years of using high end equipment AND having real first hand experience of serious money cables of all flavours through my hands than you could begin to imagine. Given that I now have a cable that transcends all of that in one single leap means it is just a tad more weight behind it than mere semantics.
But as much as the cable you have now transcends all of the other cables you have experienced in 45 years why can't a different decent cable with different decent plugs do that too for others? - or maybe even yourself?
I can see where your coming from, Frank, no worries but as much as your mind is open to your recent purchase it should be said that for much less money it is 'possible' that a cheaper (DIY) option can be just as good. It might sound unlikely to you but Marco has found this to be true for his system.
IMO the plugs and sockets are very important and the cable needs to be of a good design to let the two ends do their jobs.
:popcorn:
Is this the SLIC Frank?
Yes it is the SLIC.
The very second I first heard it I knew I had to have it, it was that good and I didn't care then how much it would eventually cost and I bought one as soon as I could. Unlike any other cable I have heard before. There is no "fireworks" with this cable, it does not impress or draw attention to itself, but it has that *SOMETHING* that just draws you more and more into the music so the hours seem to melt away because there is no fatigue or anything you can criticise about the sound. I am currently auditioning some uber expensive speaker cables and they have revealed a lot more of what is going on 'upstream'. Damned expensive this hobby is :lol:
The one main flaw that no one seems to acknowledge when speaking about interconnects is the plug and socket chosen on most audio equipment,The RCA plug and socket or Phono system is far from ideal, hence IMHO the real reason interconnects make such a wide variation of difference,The differences cable make in Audio replay systems is mostly secondary to the plug in almost every experiment i have conducted over the years, now, if we remove the biggest culprit of these variations, ie; the plug and socket system, and replace it with something better, ie BNC then i am sure those differences we perceive in cables would be even smaller!
A...
I don't agree. The plug does make a difference but the overriding change is down to the cable IME. I've kept to using the Eichmann Bullets in my experiments where possible but where I've had to use something else and then switch to the Bullets afterwards the improvements have been positive but subtle. The biggest and largest 'night & day' change was the VD Silver series vs my Kimbers, two radically different configurations and two radically different presentations. Swapping to Eichmanns made a small change but nowhere as large as the differences in the cables themselves.
But as much as the cable you have now transcends all of the other cables you have experienced in 45 years why can't a different decent cable with different decent plugs do that too for others? - or maybe even yourself?
I can see where your coming from, Frank, no worries but as much as your mind is open to your recent purchase it should be said that for much less money it is 'possible' that a cheaper (DIY) option can be just as good.
I am still open minded and although I have kept very quiet, I have been mirroring the thread closely and purchased the Gothams and a some Klotz is on it's way too. I will fit some very nice Cardas plugs on those and let the fun begin.
Ninanina
04-06-2014, 22:04
There is no "fireworks" with this cable, it does not impress or draw attention to itself, but it has that *SOMETHING* that just draws you more and more into the music so the hours seem to melt away because there is no fatigue or anything you can criticise about the sound
I totally agree Frank but my post will probably be removed or moved as per usual.....I was under the impression that the SLIC can ONLY be mentioned under the Trade Impressions bit, which I think is just crazy; I have no idea what people are afraid of to be honest...
I'll get me coat !! :rolleyes:
Oh and I cannot be accused of not trying the cheaper cables because I have, including the Gothams, but I still know that I made the right decision in keeping what I liked.....
http://tescovaluebeans.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/goodgrief-703274.gif?w=490
I totally agree Frank but my post will probably be removed or moved as per usual.....I was under the impression that the SLIC can ONLY be mentioned under the Trade Impressions bit, which I think is just crazy; I have no idea what people are afraid of to be honest...
I'll get me coat !! :rolleyes:
I don't see why we should hide the fact that we have purchased a superb component and have to be confined to some dark recesses of the forum to express our delight. To me it stops being an open forum where you can chew the fat with fellow enthusiasts if that is the case. I don't malign other people's choices, so I don't see why mine has to be maligned.
Anyway, in that spirit I shall let you guys carry on with your thread unsullied :)
I totally agree Frank but my post will probably be removed or moved as per usual.....I was under the impression that the SLIC can ONLY be mentioned under the Trade Impressions bit, which I think is just crazy...
Erm, Bev, how can you possibly say that when last night I agreed to split the previous thread, where the current discussion (about studio cables) was originally taking place, in order to facilitate your discussing of Slic on the original thread Kevin started, which now most certainly doesn't reside in the trade room??
Me thinks you're getting a wee bit confuddled! ;)
And for reference, there is no ban on discussing Slic, or any other cables, in an appropriate context, in the appropriate area of the forum.
Therefore, no-one is being asked to "hide" anywhere. It's rather frustrating when some simple new rules, which have been introduced recently, aren't being interpreted correctly and instead a completely incorrect spin put on them, by supposedly intelligent people :doh:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
05-06-2014, 00:44
You will see that the Slic thread in the trade area has now had its review content moved to 'Strokes of Genius', which is where reviews belong. There now exist three separate but parallel threads about these cables, all of which are open for anyone to post in.
If you want to post a review of them, then you may like to add to this thread here:
Slic Cable Reviews (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32842-Slic-Cable-Reviews)
.....which was effectively started by Bev.
If you want to ask a question of the supplier of the cables, then go to the Trade thread here:
Slic Innovations Eclipse C Interconnect at MCRU (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32174-Slic-Innovations-Eclipse-C-Interconnect-at-MCRU)
There is also a thread started by Martin:
The SLIC Innovations Eclipse C Balanced XLR Interconnect
So who exactly is being silenced on the subject of Slic Cables?
Ninanina
05-06-2014, 00:54
I was getting very confused about where any discussions were supposed to be as there have been so many different places concerning this cable, and it now seems that the Trade mentions have been moved too which probably makes things simpler
I'll not put any posts here as I am sure this isn't the place for SLIC... :thumbsup:
:wave::wave:
I am utterly bemused how changing cheap plugs can transform a cheap cable into something that it isn't and never will be, because it is still a cheap cable fitted with expensive plugs - you have only addressed ONE issue there while the other remains unresolved in my opinion.
First of all, the fact that high-quality studio cables, such as Van Damme or Klotz, are cheap to buy has got little to do with how intrinsically suitable they are for audio purposes and much more to do with economies of scale (as both are sold in vast quantities to recording and broadcasting studios worldwide, instead of in tiny quantities to boutique hi-fi manufacturers), which thus allows them to be sold so cheaply, together with the very important fact that neither of the cables in question are being marketed to audiophiles!
Many so-called (and well-known) 'audiophile-branded cables' are simply studio cables dressed up in fancy sheathing, with high-quality plugs fitted, which are then priced to sell in such a way as to be considered as 'desirable', to gullible folk who mistakenly equate performance solely with price :doh:
The fact is, as soon as something has a 'hi-fi badge' put on it, the price goes through the roof! Therefore, if a £20 pair of Van Damme interconnects were sold by an established hi-fi cable company, you can bet your boots that they'd sell for rather more than £20!! Therefore, quite simply, in a hi-fi sense, they cannot be judged as "cheap" £20 cables...
I don't know about you, but when it comes to cables, or anything else in hi-fi, I'd rather ensure that my hard-earned money was paying for out-and-out sonic performance, in areas where I knew it mattered most and was being well spent, than on 'badge desirability' or the premium normally attached to the pricing of hi-fi branded cables. Unlike some folk, I don't get a warm glow from knowing that I own something 'reassuringly expensive'... ;)
Anyway, *that* is precisely the purpose of my recent cable tests: to indentify and create a pair of interconnects, which have had the money spent where it matters [good quality solid-copper, low-capacitance properly shielded cable, fitted with top-notch plugs, using high-quality solder, and assembled with care by someone who knows what they're doing], and so can take on pretty much any 'audiophile branded' cables out there, produced by a major commercial hi-fi cable company, but at a mere fraction of the price!!
That is fundamentally what the AoS 'SPPV principle' is all about, and the approach we will always seek to promote.
Want to test the theory? Then lend me your Slics, and I'll lend you the finished cables I come up with for comparison, and we'll report the results here! Or have you chickened out of that idea now, after having previously agreed to it on the phone...? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Nothing at all to do with semantics Marco because I have some 45 years of using high end equipment AND having real first hand experience of serious money cables of all flavours through my hands than you could begin to imagine. Given that I now have a cable that transcends all of that in one single leap means it is just a tad more weight behind it than mere semantics.
You're missing the point, Frank. I'm not disputing that to you, in your system, with your definition of 'radically improve', the Slics do precisely what you've described; merely that my definition of 'radically improve', using the same cables in my system, may be somewhat different from yours, but equally valid :)
Marco.
I don't agree. The plug does make a difference but the overriding change is down to the cable IME.
I'd say that the overriding change is down to having achieved sonic synergy with one's chosen plugs and cables (and how it all performs as a combination), as just like the hi-fi system itself, ultimately the efficacy of any interconnect cables is due to the SUM of their constituent parts [wire, plugs and solder used], not solely any one of those parts in isolation - and most importantly how the final cable design interacts, sonically, with its partnering equipment.
Furthermore, as previously discussed, the biggest bottleneck, sonically, exists at the entry point where two pieces of equipment in a system are joined together (as anything less than hard-wiring creates a compromise), therefore it makes sense to use plugs and sockets which, through design, go some way to addressing/minimising the effect of that bottleneck.
Marco.
brian2957
05-06-2014, 02:36
Agreed Marco . Sometimes this synergy happens purely by mistake :D
You have PM Marco.
Personally, I don't believe that the plug is the most important part.
I think that the screening of the variable frequency 10mV (peak) signal to reject noise and keep the signal pure is more important. If I can, I will make two cables the same, but one will be fitted with an additional screen to see if there is any perceivable differences.
anthonyTD
05-06-2014, 08:04
I don't think anyone here is trying to say, "use any crap piece of cable, and fit decent plugs, and that's it"
What i am saying is; start off with a decent cable, that has the correct configuration,and material suitable for Audio etc, fit the best plugs you can afford [by best' i don't mean expensive bling ones], and do some experiments with either plug' and cable and see which makes the biggest difference!
I stick by what i have stated in one of my earlier posts, If a cable can " Transform" the sonic's of a £100 system in the same way as a £10,000 system, then it is carrying some form of signature, and is therefore not neutral, And yes, i don't doubt that many folk here [including myself] have witnessed the shocking performance of ultra expensive systems, and cable combinations, that just goes to prove that throwing money at a system does not guarantee "synergy" I have heard £1000 systems that have been meticulously set up and partnered' that sound absolutely fantastic, i have also had customers who have spent ridiculous amounts of money on a system [with no care and attention given to THE NOTION OF "SYNERGY"] that sound absolutely terrible.
I hope i have made my point clear this time...:)
Incidentally, what's your view (and also that of others) on this Klotz cable, which is said to be better than the AC-110: http://www.studiospares.com/cable-balanced-/klotz-mc5000-mic-+-line-cable/invt/544600
More (technical) info here: http://shop.klotz-ais.com/quickorder/artikelpdf/MC5000__f.pdf
It's certainly double the price! I'm wondering, however, if there's anything about its construction and/or electrical characteristics that would make it superior for audio purposes to the AC-110?
Marco.
Hi Marco.
Not sure about the cable in your link, but when I was doing similar experiments with cables some time back I found this one to be very good:
http://www.studiospares.com/cable-balanced-/quadfle-x-cable-mtr/invt/540541?VBMST=klotz
and slightly better than the AC-110 from what I remember.
I'd say that the overriding change is down to having achieved sonic synergy with one's chosen plugs and cables (and how it all performs as a combination), as just like the hi-fi system itself, ultimately the efficacy of any interconnect cables is due to the SUM of their constituent parts [wire, plugs and solder used], not solely any one of those parts in isolation - and most importantly how the final cable design interacts, sonically, with its partnering equipment.
Furthermore, as previously discussed, the biggest bottleneck, sonically, exists at the entry point where two pieces of equipment in a system are joined together (as anything less than hard-wiring creates a compromise), therefore it makes sense to use plugs and sockets which, through design, go some way to addressing/minimising the effect of that bottleneck.
Marco.
But being able to separate the connection variable from the cable variable allows you to pinpoint the component that give the greatest change, IME so far that is the cable. Hardwiring may improve the connection, I've never tried it as its totally impractical for me and I suspect it's the same for the other 99.9%
I can see though if similar cable types are being compared (configuration, construction, materials etc) then the difference between them will be small and in this case the plugs or lack of be the overriding factor. However, given different geometries and construction the cable has far more influence.
By 'bottleneck' I assume you mean 'weak link'...I use the term 'bottleneck' in data comms which confused me at first! :)
For me the MC5000 looked interesting, due to the aluminium foil shield, and double layer copper braid.
From a shielding perspective, it's pretty good.
The conductors are very similar to the AC110, so the sound should be similar, but with better interference "rejection" in theory.
Hi Neal,
But being able to separate the connection variable from the cable variable allows you to pinpoint the component that give the greatest change, IME so far that is the cable.
I understand that, but the since the weakest link in the chain, in terms of the sonic effectiveness of a cable, is by far, at the point where two pieces of equipment are joined together, it makes sense to optimise that connection, as far as is possible (with the use of RCA plugs designed to maximise signal integrity), because no matter how good the cable/wire is at its job, the effect of that will be lost to some degree when the signal arrives at its weakest link - and so that area of the chain must be given as much priority as ensuring the efficacy of the cable itself, if the latter is to be fully realised where it matters most: in the quality of the sound reproduced by the equipment.
Marco.
Hi Marco.
Not sure about the cable in your link, but when I was doing similar experiments with cables some time back I found this one to be very good:
http://www.studiospares.com/cable-balanced-/quadfle-x-cable-mtr/invt/540541?VBMST=klotz
and slightly better than the AC-110 from what I remember.
Hi Frank,
Cheers for the info! That looks rather interesting - more interesting to me, I think, than the MC5000... :hmm:
I'll probably give some of that a go! :)
Marco.
I don't think anyone here is trying to say, "use any crap piece of cable, and fit decent plugs, and that's it"
What i am saying is; start off with a decent cable, that has the correct configuration,and material suitable for Audio etc, fit the best plugs you can afford [by best' i don't mean expensive bling ones], and do some experiments with either plug' and cable and see which makes the biggest difference!
Exactly. Hopefully that fact is now sinking in! ;)
Marco.
Incidentally, I should stress that the whole point of using 'wanky plugs' on high-quality cables, is that in my experience, the best ones (such as those from MS Audio, KLE, Eichmann, etc) minimise, through the effectiveness of their design, the limitations of bog-standard RCA plugs commonly used on most cables, which quite simply, seriously degrade the audio signal at the weakest link in the chain.
Furthermore, bog-standard RCA plugs use brass conductors, which sound notably worse than the solid-copper or solid-silver ones found on the so-called 'wanky' variety! ;)
Marco.
Incidentally, I should stress that the whole point of using 'wanky plugs' on high-quality cables, is that in my experience, the best ones (such as those from MS Audio, KLE, Eichmann, etc) minimise, through the effectiveness of their design, the limitations of bog-standard RCA plugs commonly used on most cables, which quite simply, seriously degrade the audio signal at the weakest link in the chain.
Furthermore, bog-standard RCA plugs use brass conductors, which sound notably worse than the solid-copper or solid-silver ones found on the so-called 'wanky' variety! ;)
Marco.
I think it would be interesting to conduct an evaluation of plugs next, although the two items are intermingled throughout this post.
I would really like to know what the best plugs out there are - and the worst!
Hi Neal,
....it makes sense to optimise that connection, as far as is possible (with the use of RCA plugs designed to maximise signal integrity), because no matter how good the cable/wire is at its job, the effect of that will be lost to some degree when the signal arrives at its weakest link ...
Yes, IME though the degree of that loss is really quite small in practice compared to the cable, see the difference between the VD Silver series and the Kimbers...
I understand exactly where you're coming from, Neal, but I think you're underestimating a little the degree of that loss, which would only become fully apparent when comparing the results with hard-wiring.
The basic point, though, which I'm sure you'll agree with, is that when building a pair cables, there are very real and worthwhile sonic gains to be had by being as judicious in selecting the plugs used, as the wire :)
Simply focussing on the efficacy of the latter, without paying similar attention to that of the plugs, is lazy thinking, not to mention a recipe for producing mediocre results. Daft too, considering that the superb MS Audio plugs are available for merely £3.50 a pop (and probably even less in a bulk purchase)!!
Given that's the case, I see no excuse why any cable manufacturer, who truly cares about his or her designs offering the best possible sonic performance, to continue using 'ten-a-penny' brass conductor/metal-heavy constructed crap, even if it raises the price of their products slightly, as I'm pretty sure that most customers, once hearing the sonic improvements provided with MS Audio plugs, would happily pay the extra moolah....... ;)
Marco.
I have been listening to the Klotz cable with Cardas plugs fitted and it has been intriguing to say the least.
Won't make any comment tonight as I am cream crackered, so will give it another couple of hours tomorrow night.
I have some plugs that NVA use on the interconnects on the way in the post. (I won't reveal their source, as I have promised not to). I'll be making up three cables based on AC110, one with MS Audio plugs, one with NVA plugs and one with either the WBT or Furutech clone plugs that I bought. I'll post my honest feedback after I have completed my little test, but I won't take this to the same level as Marco with the carbon bodied Furutech plugs. I just can't justify this in my system.
To be clear, I am presently in the "plugs don't make much difference" camp, but I have an open mind and I am keen to learn. The above is based on working on instrumentation systems for certifying aircraft, where we use basic plugs, but not of an RCA variety. Although they are better than DIN, I think that the main issue rests with the compromise that is an RCA plug.
One set of the MS Audio plugs and the Klotz AC110 and MC5000 has just arrived.
I'll knock a lead up this afternoon.
I have been listening to the Klotz cable with Cardas plugs fitted and it has been intriguing to say the least.
Won't make any comment tonight as I am cream crackered, so will give it another couple of hours tomorrow night.
Look forward to finding out what you think, Frank. However, I doubt that they'll match the Slics. If they're a little less crappatory than the Gothams, in your system, then at least we'll have progressed a wee bit! :D ;)
Marco.
One set of the MS Audio plugs and the Klotz AC110 and MC5000 has just arrived.
I'll knock a lead up this afternoon.
Good stuff, Kevin. You'll need to knock up two leads, wont you? One with AC110 and one with MC5000, both with MS Audio plugs fitted, in order to do a direct comparison. Again, I look forward to reading your findings :)
If the MC5000 is any good, I'll give some a go. Don't forget to describe how you've wired it up, as I believe you had some specific ideas about that.
Marco.
Isn't all this a bit sad? "listening" to bits of wire and the metal on each end... What about the music guys? All I very respectfully ask all of you is to give this some perspective. A bloody coathanger will transmit the signal very well (as has been well proved when the listeners didn't know what the 'cable' was).
My suggestion for a good cheap interconnect is to chose a low capacitance wire that is easy to strip back, prepare and tin with good solder and a plug that also makes soldering to it a doddle, rather than a difficult chore.
Are coathangers low capacitance? Is covering them in blood necessary?
Isn't all this a bit sad? "listening" to bits of wire and the metal on each end... What about the music guys?
It's just a bit of fun, Dave - and in this case, very inexpensive fun! The ultimate beneficiary will be the music... ;)
Marco.
Isn't all this a bit sad? "listening" to bits of wire and the metal on each end... What about the music guys? All I very respectfully ask all of you is to give this some perspective. A bloody coathanger will transmit the signal very well (as has been well proved when the listeners didn't know what the 'cable' was).
My suggestion for a good cheap interconnect is to chose a low capacitance wire that is easy to strip back, prepare and tin with good solder and a plug that also makes soldering to it a doddle, rather than a difficult chore.
This gives me a bloody good excuse to listen to more music. If I can find an interconnect for £20 that knocks the spots off everything else I have tried, then what is the harm in playing? And to be honest, I think I am fairly close to that goal right now, but my fun has not yet finished.
Good stuff, Kevin. You'll need to knock up two leads, wont you? One with AC110 and one with MC5000, both with MS Audio plugs fitted, in order to do a direct comparison. Again, I look forward to reading your findings :)
If the MC5000 is any good, I'll give some a go. Don't forget to describe how you've wired it up, as I believe you had some specific ideas about that.
Marco.
Yes, I will have to make up more than one lead, but I currently only have one set of plugs, so they are going on the MC5000. When the other plugs arrive, I'll be able to do some comparisons, but right now I am going to enjoy the music.
This gives me a bloody good excuse to listen to more music. If I can find an interconnect for £20 that knocks the spots off everything else I have tried, then what is the harm in playing?
Precisely, especially if it results in unearthing a potential 'giant-killer'! ;)
Marco.
The combination of the MS Audio Plugs and the Klotz MC5000 is a good one in my system. Compared to the AC110 interconnect I bought from eBay, it has more detail, depth and dynamics.
How much is the cable, and how much the plug? No idea yet, but my money is still on the fact that the plug changes will be very subtle compared to a cable. ;)
I also need to take into account that I have just recently changed the platter, so that may also contribute to what I am hearing.
This is the first £20 interconnect that I would happily live with in my system. (I am yet to make the AC110 up with the same plugs).
Look forward to finding out what you think, Frank. However, I doubt that they'll match the Slics. If they're a little less crappatory than the Gothams, in your system, then at least we'll have progressed a wee bit! :D ;)
Marco.
Yes you are correct Marco that the Klotz cable has offended me a LOT less than the Gotham cable did :lol:
Correct again that the Klotz could on no account compete with the SLIC cable and that really is at the core of why I am bemused about your excitement with the recent cable trials - which I am not knocking by the way, but I still think you are bonkers, given that the to-ing and fro-ing cost is mounting up in one way or another.
Bearing in mind again that the SLIC is a very tough act to follow, herewith is my perception of the Klotz cable:
I found that it could actually convey trebly and bassy noises, the bass timing in particular was streets ahead of the Gothams in that respect and the top end was slighty rolled off compared to the Gothams which I found brash and unsophisticated.
However, my overall impression of the Klotz cable is that everything sounds as though is in monochrome; the treble seemed to highlight one area of the treble which at first hearing was quite plausible and indeed acceptable, but closer and further listening revealed that a struck cymbal didn't quite have the ring and shimmer it should do and ambience cues were very subdued so a live album sounded like mufflers were fitted over the microphones so the venue reverb was almost edited out. Bass too had that one note quality with little weight and texture, although the leading edges were where they should be, so a kick drum still had a "thwack" to it albeit without the power and depth I know is there in the recording. Mark Knopfler's voice is actually full of warm inflections, but the Klotz made it almost one shade of grey and rather thin sounding too. Having said all that, it is in my estimation and opinion a superior cable to the Gotham which I would not dream of putting decent quality plugs on because I would still have the same basic traits about it I didn't like, which will still be extant no matter what plugs were on it.
You might think my appraisal of the Klotz is pretty savage but having a SLIC in my system effectively has made any other cable very much second rate by comparison, so in the Klotz's defence I will say it is a good performer and it offers good value for money for what it is - an inexpensive simple well constructed cable that I am sure will please many.
Hi Frank,
Not really sure what to say, although I'm not exactly surprised by the result, (as it was entirely predictable), although perhaps not for the reasons you think! ;)
It stands to reason, of course, that what you've just described is the polar opposite of what I'm hearing with the Klotz cables in my system (although mine are fitted with the MS Audio plugs, which I suspect are better than the Cardas ones you've used, although that alone certainly wouldn't explain our diametrically opposed views on these cables).
Also, how on earth you can say that the Gothams were "brash and unsophisticated" beggars belief :eek: :scratch:
If anything (and I think most others who've tried them would agree), they're a little rolled off at the top end, due to their fairly high capacitance, so "brash", which I take to mean bright/forward sounding, they ain't. However, I guess you hear what you hear....
So.....and I would like an answer to my question this time (or perhaps I should just phone you?) when are you loaning me your Slics, in order that I can try to put your comments about them into some sort of perspective, when used within the context of my system? We agreed to do this, remember? :)
Marco.
P.S could you please also take a picture of the Klotz cables you've made up, as I'd like to see what the Cardas plugs that you've used look like? Ta!
BTH K10A
07-06-2014, 23:15
Yes you are correct Marco that the Klotz cable has offended me a LOT less than the Gotham cable did :lol:
Correct again that the Klotz could on no account compete with the SLIC cable and that really is at the core of why I am bemused about your excitement with the recent cable trials - which I am not knocking by the way, but I still think you are bonkers, given that the to-ing and fro-ing cost is mounting up in one way or another.
Bearing in mind again that the SLIC is a very tough act to follow, herewith is my perception of the Klotz cable:
I found that it could actually convey trebly and bassy noises, the bass timing in particular was streets ahead of the Gothams in that respect and the top end was slighty rolled off compared to the Gothams which I found brash and unsophisticated.
However, my overall impression of the Klotz cable is that everything sounds as though is in monochrome; the treble seemed to highlight one area of the treble which at first hearing was quite plausible and indeed acceptable, but closer and further listening revealed that a struck cymbal didn't quite have the ring and shimmer it should do and ambience cues were very subdued so a live album sounded like mufflers were fitted over the microphones so the venue reverb was almost edited out. Bass too had that one note quality with little weight and texture, although the leading edges were where they should be, so a kick drum still had a "thwack" to it albeit without the power and depth I know is there in the recording. Mark Knopfler's voice is actually full of warm inflections, but the Klotz made it almost one shade of grey and rather thin sounding too. Having said all that, it is in my estimation and opinion a superior cable to the Gotham which I would not dream of putting decent quality plugs on because I would still have the same basic traits about it I didn't like, which will still be extant no matter what plugs were on it.
You might think my appraisal of the Klotz is pretty savage but having a SLIC in my system effectively has made any other cable very much second rate by comparison, so in the Klotz's defence I will say it is a good performer and it offers good value for money for what it is - an inexpensive simple well constructed cable that I am sure will please many.
I have to say I find this quite incredible. :scratch: Swapping cables rarely make any difference if any in my systems, and I've never heard any of the symptoms (if that's the right word) you describe, usually only a barely perceptible tilt in balance between bass or treble.
For different cables to have such a profound effect you must have a system capable of resolution far beyond anything my systems are capable of. What are you using?
Hi Frank,
Not really sure what to say, although I'm not exactly surprised by the result, (as it was entirely predictable), although perhaps not for the reasons you think! ;)
It stands to reason, of course, that what you've just described is the polar opposite of what I'm hearing with the Klotz cables in my system (although mine are fitted with the MS Audio plugs, which I suspect are better than the Cardas ones you've used, although that alone certainly wouldn't explain our diametrically opposed views on these cables).
Also, how on earth you can say that the Gothams were "brash and unsophisticated" beggars belief :eek: :scratch:
If anything (and I think most others who've tried them would agree), they're a little rolled off at the top end, due to their fairly high capacitance, so "brash", which I take to mean bright/forward sounding, they ain't. However, I guess you hear what you hear....
So.....and I would like an answer to my question this time (or perhaps I should just phone you?) when are you loaning me your Slics, in order that I can try to put your comments about them into some sort of perspective, when used within the context of my system? We agreed to do this, remember? :)
Marco.
P.S could you please also take a picture of the Klotz cables you've made up, as I'd like to see what the Cardas plugs that you've used look like? Ta!
I hear what I hear and write accordingly. Maybe I listen to different things than others do :confused:
I am in no rush to part with my SLICs and not relishing being without my sounds however short that might be. Why don't you get your wallet out and have the full 30 days to play with them ya tight fisted bugger :ner:
Don't forget either that my listening room is tiny so "near field" listening is the norm for me, plus I am currently playing with a £1500 pair of speaker cables that takes no prisoners whatsoever either and no, they don't have a SLIC label on them sadly. Therefore the minutest changes in my system are immediately apparent and definitive.
For different cables to have such a profound effect you must have a system capable of resolution far beyond anything my systems are capable of. What are you using?
Well yes that would be interesting, one thing I’m pretty sure about though is that the effect of ‘speaker, room and amplifier matching swamp/dominate/have priority over any differences a cable will make ;) I heard SLIC today but not in an environment that was in anyway capable of resolving cable differences unfortunately.
I never found the Gothams 'Brash' quite the opposite in fact, veiled in the treble certainly but not 'brash', the Klotz I found to be more open and able to convey Cymbals and decay very well.
What we must all be careful of is posting in absolutes, hi fi forums seem to be awash with absolutes and as we should all know what works for one person in the confines of their own environment may not necessarily work in another.
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