View Full Version : VFM/SPPV studio cables test
Canetoad
08-07-2014, 00:45
Christmas Day 2013. Now living in hot, sunny Brisbane and the wife and son are loving it! :)
Nice one, Bernie - must've missed that... I guess it's a wee bit different from Dunfermline (unless you're drinking Bacardi)! :eyebrows:
Marco.
bronzeage
08-07-2014, 09:02
If anybody wants my 1M MC5000/MS Audio cable, then I will be happy to sell at the cost of parts. It's ready soldered, but without heatshrink, so you might want to re-solder, as I am not sure how good a job was done. I seem to be the only person not getting on with this cable.
PM me if you are interested.
I seem to be the only person not getting on with this cable.
I thought you liked its 'crystalline cleanliness'! :D
;)
Marco.
bronzeage
08-07-2014, 09:54
:scratch:
Well, I do have some fondness in that regard, but the forces at play with my particular setup mean the Venus is the one for me, and I just can't be bothered to keep switching cables any more. I thought it would be better to give somebody else the chance to have a crack.
I'm slowly saving up the pennies to go for that Slic vs Venus shootout, but I'm a good few months away still.
bronzeage
08-07-2014, 11:43
Cable now sold, boy am I curious about how this will sound in someone else's system. confused:
It sounds "almost" as good as my RFC Mercury, but the Mercury still has the edge.
As the Venus is supposed to be better than the Mercury, I can understand why it does not cut it in your system.
brian2957
08-07-2014, 16:11
Joe ( The Black Adder ) is your PM in -box full mate ?
wee tee cee
10-07-2014, 11:37
Just plumbed in the klotz 5000/rhodium ms pluged cable Brian very kindly made up for me in 50cm length. It works very well in my set up.Early doors yet but it may well be the best I have tried. I cant detect any sonic colouration and separation/sound staging are exceptional.
Will get a few hours on them and switch back. Very Impressed!!!!!
Still waiting for my Van Damme ultra whites. Ordered on Saturday would have thought I would have them by now given they are only coming from Sheffield...
brian2957
10-07-2014, 12:17
Just plumbed in the klotz 5000/rhodium ms pluged cable Brian very kindly made up for me in 50cm length. It works very well in my set up.Early doors yet but it may well be the best I have tried. I cant detect any sonic colouration and separation/sound staging are exceptional.
Will get a few hours on them and switch back. Very Impressed!!!!!
Nice one mate , please keep us posted :)
wee tee cee
10-07-2014, 12:28
Brian,
I cant wrong foot them. The sound staging is rock solid. Frequency extremes are spot on. The newer John Martyn albums- On the cobbles and Heaven and earth sound excellent. Running through loads of tracks.....just enjoying the music without concentrating on the hi fi !!!
Might have to wire up the whole shebang with them to see if synergy comes into play?
Many Thanks.
icehockeyboy
10-07-2014, 12:29
Still waiting for my Van Damme ultra whites. Ordered on Saturday would have thought I would have them by now given they are only coming from Sheffield...
I don't think they make up cables at the weekend, and then they're closed Sunday.
I don't think they make up cables at the weekend, and then they're closed Sunday.
So they make them up and post them Monday and I get them Tuesday....
If you see them tell them to get the lead out ;)
Pretty much what I'm hearing too Tony.
Best I've heard in my system
Big thanks to Brian for doing a superb job on them. :)
Brian,
I cant wrong foot them. The sound staging is rock solid. Frequency extremes are spot on. The newer John Martyn albums- On the cobbles and Heaven and earth sound excellent. Running through loads of tracks.....just enjoying the music without concentrating on the hi fi !!!
Might have to wire up the whole shebang with them to see if synergy comes into play?
Many Thanks.
potatoha
10-07-2014, 16:54
Cable now sold, boy am I curious about how this will sound in someone else's system. confused:
Marcus,
MC5000s arrived today. Thanks for the prompt delivery. No wonder they didn't work in your system. There were several cold joints and too much solder! They weren't actually terminated as pseudo-balanced as you said, the shield was floating at both ends. They were picking up a fair bit of hum in my system, so I unsoldered all the joints and re-terminated as pseudo-balanced and they are sounding real fine now. I've got to do some listening now. :)
Cheers,
John
Marcus,
MC5000s arrived today. Thanks for the prompt delivery. No wonder they didn't work in your system. There were several cold joints and too much solder! They weren't actually terminated as pseudo-balanced as you said, the shield was floating at both ends.
What numpty done the wiring? :doh:
Marco.
icehockeyboy
10-07-2014, 17:19
So they make them up and post them Monday and I get them Tuesday....
If you see them tell them to get the lead out ;)
i will...but id be more likely to blame the postal service....... :)
jandl100
10-07-2014, 17:58
Marco suggested I post my views on the AC110 vs MC5000 Klotz cable debate and their intrinsic merit.
Thanks to Brian, I've now had a chance to listen to both with those fancy Eichmann-like plugs - thanks Brian! :thumbsup:
First along was the AC110 -- hmm, a bit low in rez, resulting in images standing out a bit more in terms of focus as the background low level ambience was pretty much MIA and AWOL. But it was a false focus in my system. Nope, my RFC Mercury Mk2 trounced it, imho, it was punted solidly into the long grass.
Then the MC5000 cable arrived.
.... better than the AC110, but imo and in my system (ims?) still doesn't have the rez and sheer musical palpability of the RFC Mercury2.
The latter remains my cable of choice.
.... is it 4x better (or whatever the relative cost is)? - Yup !!! In terms of allowing my system to deliver the sonic goods, it certainly is worth the money imho. :)
Are they twice as good as the Pluto's Jerry?
http://hifipig.com/rfc-reference-pluto-interconnect-cables/
Whats interesting is that a couple of guys have heard the 5000's against the Pluto's and preferred them.
Horses for courses as always! :)
Ali Tait
10-07-2014, 19:08
What numpty done the wiring? :doh:
Marco.
Not me!
Ali Tait
10-07-2014, 19:09
Pretty much what I'm hearing too Tony.
Best I've heard in my system
Big thanks to Brian for doing a superb job on them. :)
Just got 10m of this through the post. Will make up some cables at the weekend if I get time.
Not me!
Was a guy at Bronzeage's Work apparently.
As the plugs are rhodium plated there's a certain knack to a good soldering joint.
Not as simple as normal copper.
Just got 10m of this through the post. Will make up some cables at the weekend if I get time.
It's VERY good mate, best I've heard in my system.
Ali Tait
10-07-2014, 19:18
Cool, look forward to comparing to the 110.
Are they twice as good as the Pluto's Jerry?
http://hifipig.com/rfc-reference-pluto-interconnect-cables/
Whats interesting is that a couple of guys have heard the 5000's against the Pluto's and preferred them.
Horses for courses as always! :)
I preferred the Mercury over the Pluto. That was an easy choice.
The Mercury still has the edge over the MC5000 in my opinion.
Covenant
10-07-2014, 19:40
I have finished making up a pair of klotz/ms audio cables and I think they are prety good but not up to the randalls that jerry sold me.
I will leave them in place for a few days to see if they improve. ..
Covenant
10-07-2014, 19:55
Was a guy at Bronzeage's Work apparently.
As the plugs are rhodium plated there's a certain knack to a good soldering joint.
Not as simple as normal copper.
Now you tell me-took me two weeks!
potatoha
10-07-2014, 23:12
Soldering on rhodium plated surface certainly wasn't as easy as soldering on copper surface. I firstly plugged the ms audio rca into a socket on my broken sky box. Tinned the conductor and the iron tip before soldering. My trick was to heat the conductor and the receptacle at the same time to allow better solder flow. Lead based WBT silver solder helped a lot due to its low melting point. I'd avoid the lead free solder for this task.
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for sharing your views on the Klotz, however...
Then the MC5000 cable arrived.
.... better than the AC110, but imo and in my system (ims?) still doesn't have the rez and sheer musical palpability of the RFC Mercury2.
...you must've changed your opinion then, mate, as that's precisely the opposite of what you said when David and I were there, which was the other way round to what you've just written! ;)
Anyway, that's cool. However, both David and I considered it was the MC5000s that had the greater 'rez' in your system, and were ultimately more musical, so much so that we thought it produced the best sounds of the day, and that your system *really* boogied, when the Klotz went in.
For me, it was as if the music had suddenly been allowed to 'breathe', and that made your (already excellent system) produce some truly wonderful sounds.
Marco.
Whats interesting is that a couple of guys have heard the 5000's against the Pluto's and preferred them.
That was also my experience in Anthony TD's system, although that was when comparing the AC-110s with the Venus! :eek:
Marco.
anthonyTD
11-07-2014, 07:51
I was describing the cable itself and not its use in this particular configuration!I have now amended that post to clarify things:)
You use XLR plugs? Any interconnect fitted with RCA plugs is not balanced by the very nature of it only having two signal paths in the plug.
One of the three wires in a balanced cable connects the grounds of two components together, but there is usually no signal current flow through this wire.
Connecting the screen at one end only does not give you a balanced cable.
By the way, I have just rewired my MC5000 cables with the screen connected at the source end. It's sounding pretty good, but I am unsure if there is a difference.
bronzeage
11-07-2014, 09:40
Bah! I had a suspicion that fellow did not really know what he was doing, I should have stuck to the trusted AOS members to do the job.
Still, somebody else is happy at least.
I started messing around with every cable I could find in the house. Found my MG1500s, but one of the plugs had jammed in an old amp and came to pieces when yanked off (think the Mrs got a bit too agressive with it).
So, lying in a basket, forgotton and unloved, was the Atratus MK1. Thought it was worth a shot at least.
Wow! Don't ask me why, but this is nigh on perfect in my setup/room. The bass is sooo tight and fat, there is a lovely richness to the midrange, and the treble did not bug my ears at all.
I used the proceeds from the MC5000 to get the Van Damme Ultra, and yes, that was certainly (due to proper construction, no doubt), much better than my bodge job, I can see why a lot of people would like that kind of presentation, you can really turn up the volume without bloom and boom.
But the Atratus does all of that, but with an extra layer of richness and sheen. Think this might just be an odd case of everything clicks.
Probably change my mind by tomorrow, but at least for one day, I was in bliss.:harp:
bronzeage
11-07-2014, 09:51
I have just given him a right beating. :punch: I had a pearl in my hands, but he turned it into a turd.
He hit back with the claim his soldering was perfect! :argument:
I hit back with his Amstrad all-in-one was not 'high-end' :donk:
He tried to hit back with that if it was good enough for millionaire Alan Sugar, it was good enough for anyone :fence:
The general consenses in the office is that he is a :wanker:
brian2957
11-07-2014, 09:51
All's well that ends well Marcus . Obviously synergy at work mate . It's nice when you find something that really works in your system .:)
jandl100
11-07-2014, 10:19
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for sharing your views on the Klotz, however...
...you must've changed your opinion then, mate, as that's precisely the opposite of what you said when David and I were there, which was the other way round to what you've just written! ;)
Anyway, that's cool. However, both David and I considered it was the MC5000s that had the greater 'rez' in your system, and were ultimately more musical, so much so that we thought it produced the best sounds of the day, and that your system *really* boogied, when the Klotz went in.
For me, it was as if the music had suddenly been allowed to 'breathe', and that made your (already excellent system) produce some truly wonderful sounds.
Marco.
Well, I've deliberately stayed away from this thread because I didn't want to get drawn into any Cable Wars, but put my comments in based on in-depth listening after our session and when a new pair of the MC5000 arrived from Brian.
Actually, I was fairly careful not to get too committal at our joint sesh as I was sitting way off-axis and was simply not hearing all of the imaging and rez stuff that my system is capable of -- despite being omni speakers the MBLs have a very definite sweet spot!
Detailed listening, including further comparisons since my last post, has shown me that the Klotz do not come within a mile of the Mercury cables. It's mid-fi compared to hifi, imo.
I'll just leave it at that - if I preferred the Klotz MC5000, or if they were even comparable, I'd be keeping them - they were returned to Brian today. :)
No worries. However, the more detailed explanation of your analysis provides greater clarity of the conclusions you've reached.
In the interests of balance, however, I should point out that the MC5000s, in my system, are way better than the Mercurys you sent me. At the end of the day, I have to be 100% honest with my findings and worry not about protecting anyone's commercial interests.
That's the way it has to be if one's views are to have any credibility, and also if one wishes to remain 100% neutral :)
Marco.
bronzeage
11-07-2014, 11:12
I think this is almost like a food preference - while cables are supposed to be neutral and all that, one man's delicious coffee flavoured sweet (ugh) is another man's vomit inducing nightmare.
Marco, forgive me if I am presuming here, but you seem to like it fast, lean and clean, maybe you could be classed as a being in the vegetarian interconnect camp.
Me, I think I'm more in the steak, peas and mushrooms camp with a side salad (and Jerry too I guess).
Somebody here probably likes black pudding, and that is their right.
Somtimes, the same ingredients taste great with one kind of sauce, but not with another.
I would think whatever you prefer though, quality of materials and construction is important - my sucky MC5000 being a classic case of what happens when you get it wrong.
This thread has completely altered the state of my music enjoyment, so for nothing other than that, I give you thanks for making me explore this possibilities.
icehockeyboy
11-07-2014, 12:14
So they make them up and post them Monday and I get them Tuesday....
If you see them tell them to get the lead out ;)
Spoke to Shaun today, he says you're cable has definitely been sent, and to check to see if they've tried to be delivered, and if a little card has been left. :)
Okay that is weird since delivery is to work where there is a 24 hour security desk. Normally they give me a call IF somethign arrives for me I will go and check with them now. Thanks for asking for me Craig, much appreciated.
Hi Marcus,
Marco, forgive me if I am presuming here, but you seem to like it fast, lean and clean, maybe you could be classed as a being in the vegetarian interconnect camp.
Lol - love it... Me a veggie, though - aye that'll be right!! :eyebrows:
Thing is, as much as I value the sonic qualities you describe (and also others), that's not what I look for in cables.
Essentially, all I want is a piece of wire, with plugs fitted, that to my ears passes the signal from one box to the other with the least audible coloration or 'sonic signature' (thus allowing one to hear music as realistically as possible) - and for me, in my system, the MC5000s *very ably* tick that particular box :)
Strangely, that task is rather more difficult to achieve than you think! ;)
Marco.
potatoha
11-07-2014, 13:26
He hit back with the claim his soldering was perfect! :argument:
If you see your colleague again, kick his backside for me if he thinks his soldering was perfect. :mental: There were just too many school boy errors if you ask me. I wouldn't call lumpy balls of solder perfect. Most of the joints came right off by pulling the wires with not much force at all. There was a film of flux between the solder and the center pin, which sacrificed not only its electrical but also its mechanical integrity. No tinning on the wires, torn insulation on signal conductors, untrimmed stray shield wires close to the pins without grounding, etc. One thing that bothered me the most was that one cable (L) was half an inch longer than the other (R), and I found that out after I've finished all the terminations. :doh:
.
Essentially, all I want is a piece of wire, with plugs fitted, that to my ears passes the signal from one box to the other with the least audible coloration or 'sonic signature' (thus allowing one to hear music as realistically as possible) - and for me, in my system, the MC5000s *very ably* tick that particular box :)
Strangely, that task is rather more difficult to achieve than you think! ;)
Marco.
Yes, so true. I hate cabels with a passion but there is no question that if you get it wrong it screws up the sound. At least with most equipment it does. occasionally you come across stuff that seems to be either 'cable immune' or possibly it is just not good enough to show up the differences.
Turns out after a chat with A1 that my cables have been sent to my home address not work so another mystery solved although crappy Royal Mail are not showing any delivery status on their crappy site yet.
bronzeage
11-07-2014, 14:04
If you see your colleague again, kick his backside for me if he thinks his soldering was perfect. :mental: There were just too many school boy errors if you ask me.
He has now left the country due to his shamefull performance. His colleagues claim he was always going to catch a plane this afternoon to go on holiday, but I don't buy it.:nono:
potatoha
11-07-2014, 14:26
I've been playing around with several budget cables for the last week, and here's the quick summary of my findings.
1. DNM solid core (new version)
pros: clarity, definition, tonal accuracy, speed, good instrumental separation
cons: slight sharpness to top end, slightly dry presentation, average sound stage, susceptible to noise/hum
2. Mogami 2549
pros: warmth, well balanced top to bottom, well rounded, pleasant sounding, good sound stage
cons: not the best in terms of clarity and dynamics, slightly bland presentation
3. Klotz AC110
pros: most powerful and meaty sounding of them all, exceptional PRAT and bass power/definition (naim/exposure camp will love this), clarity
cons: quite dry sounding, not so deep sound stage, may sound too thick if partnered wrong
4. Klotz MC5000
pros: tonal accuracy, good clarity, airy top end, top to bottom coherence, good instrumental separation, good dynamics
cons: slightly dry sounding, sound stage could be deeper
5. Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE instrument cable (aka. ultra black/white)
pros: clarity, airy top end, lush presentation, good sound stage
cons: lean and bright top end, not so balanced top to bottom
6. Furutech SA-22
pros: smooth and airy sounding, rich and lush presentation, deep and wide sound stage
cons: could have better clarity and definition, not so good dynamics, slightly subdued top end, may sound too dull if partnered wrong
They were tested on, A) Elite Rock Mk2, Excalibur, Benz Wood SL, Roksan Reference DXP SE, B) Roksan Attessa DAC, C) Beresford BM2 and I've found:
A) sounds best with MC5000,
B) best with VD Ultras, DNM, Mogami, and
C) best with AC110 and SA-22
There are no clear winners and loosers here as they offer different presentations altogther.
icehockeyboy
11-07-2014, 14:51
Turns out after a chat with A1 that my cables have been sent to my home address not work so another mystery solved although crappy Royal Mail are not showing any delivery status on their crappy site yet.
Pleased to hear that, and yes, RM are bloody slow showing updates when you're looking for whether or not something's been delivered, as I said a day or three back, 4 days after my item had been signed for, they finally show it on their site, not good at all!
Mark Grant
11-07-2014, 21:13
Found my MG1500s, but one of the plugs had jammed in an old amp and came to pieces when yanked off (think the Mrs got a bit too agressive with it).
That's the first time I have heard of a customer breaking a Neutrik profi, they are a tight fit though aren't they.
If you send it in I will replace the connector just for the parts cost + return post, wont be much at all.
Bah! I had a suspicion that fellow did not really know what he was doing, I should have stuck to the trusted AOS members to do the job.
Still, somebody else is happy at least.
I started messing around with every cable I could find in the house. Found my MG1500s, but one of the plugs had jammed in an old amp and came to pieces when yanked off (think the Mrs got a bit too agressive with it).
So, lying in a basket, forgotton and unloved, was the Atratus MK1. Thought it was worth a shot at least.
Wow! Don't ask me why, but this is nigh on perfect in my setup/room. The bass is sooo tight and fat, there is a lovely richness to the midrange, and the treble did not bug my ears at all.
I used the proceeds from the MC5000 to get the Van Damme Ultra, and yes, that was certainly (due to proper construction, no doubt), much better than my bodge job, I can see why a lot of people would like that kind of presentation, you can really turn up the volume without bloom and boom.
But the Atratus does all of that, but with an extra layer of richness and sheen. Think this might just be an odd case of everything clicks.
Probably change my mind by tomorrow, but at least for one day, I was in bliss.:harp:
In my systems, the Atratus sounds rather artificial and 'plumped up' to me. Fine for sexing up cheap characterless DACs though, but give it a wider open source in my setups anyway, and its insertion is very obvious to me.
By the way, I've said several times how the AC110 'seems' to open up with use, the slightly heavy quality 'possibly' getting less and allowing more listening focus on the treble register - :scratch:
I've been playing around with several budget cables for the last week, and here's the quick summary of my findings.
1. DNM solid core (new version)
pros: clarity, definition, tonal accuracy, speed, good instrumental separation
cons: slight sharpness to top end, slightly dry presentation, average sound stage, susceptible to noise/hum
2. Mogami 2549
pros: warmth, well balanced top to bottom, well rounded, pleasant sounding, good sound stage
cons: not the best in terms of clarity and dynamics, slightly bland presentation
3. Klotz AC110
pros: most powerful and meaty sounding of them all, exceptional PRAT and bass power/definition (naim/exposure camp will love this), clarity
cons: quite dry sounding, not so deep sound stage, may sound too thick if partnered wrong
4. Klotz MC5000
pros: tonal accuracy, good clarity, airy top end, top to bottom coherence, good instrumental separation, good dynamics
cons: slightly dry sounding, sound stage could be deeper
5. Van Damme Pro Grade Classic XKE instrument cable (aka. ultra black/white)
pros: clarity, airy top end, lush presentation, good sound stage
cons: lean and bright top end, not so balanced top to bottom
6. Furutech SA-22
pros: smooth and airy sounding, rich and lush presentation, deep and wide sound stage
cons: could have better clarity and definition, not so good dynamics, slightly subdued top end, may sound too dull if partnered wrong
They were tested on, A) Elite Rock Mk2, Excalibur, Benz Wood SL, Roksan Reference DXP SE, B) Roksan Attessa DAC, C) Beresford BM2 and I've found:
A) sounds best with MC5000,
B) best with VD Ultras, DNM, Mogami, and
C) best with AC110 and SA-22
There are no clear winners and loosers here as they offer different presentations altogther.
Good post. In my experience, cable 'differences' are subtle and are never, ever, "night and day". I'm not at all familiar with some of the interconnects you describe, but I do believe in your system, the differences you describe are to be believed (as they must be, since you heard them with your ears). Others of course may disagree; but your final sentence sums it up nicely.
jandl100
12-07-2014, 06:33
No worries. However, the more detailed explanation of your analysis provides greater clarity of the conclusions you've reached.
In the interests of balance, however, I should point out that the MC5000s, in my system, are way better than the Mercurys you sent me. At the end of the day, I have to be 100% honest with my findings and worry not about protecting anyone's commercial interests.That's the way it has to be if one's views are to have any credibility, and also if one wishes to remain 100% neutral :)
Marco.
Ooo - I say.
Bad boy, Marco - there's not an ounce of truth in that implied accusation.
If that's the way you feel, I'm outa here .... Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :wave:
Jerry,
That remark wasn't aimed at you! :doh:
I was simply explaining things from my point of view, not yours.
Marco.
potatoha
12-07-2014, 15:26
Good post. In my experience, cable 'differences' are subtle and are never, ever, "night and day". I'm not at all familiar with some of the interconnects you describe, but I do believe in your system, the differences you describe are to be believed (as they must be, since you heard them with your ears). Others of course may disagree; but your final sentence sums it up nicely.
Cheers Barry! Although there were no "night and day" differences between these cables, I've found there was a marked sonic difference between cables such as DNM, on one hand, and Furutech SA-22, on the other, as if they stand at the opposite ends of the spectrum, and the rest somewhere scattered in between. It seems that cables such as DNM sacrifice a la. ambiance for detail and clarity, and the likes of Furutech sacrifice clarity and dynamics for ambiance and plush presentation. I've also noticed that cables with certain prominent attributes should be matched with care, e.g. I'd rather not partner VD Ultras with already thin and bright sounding gears, and wouldn't like to match SA-22 or AC110 with already plush and rich sounding gears. I have yet to find the holy grail of cables that can do it all, but I know what cable I'd use with my components for my sonic pleasure. :)
Darren Cotter
12-07-2014, 18:07
Hi All
I've enjoyed reading this thread and have a set of MS Audio/Klotz MC5000 interconnects being made for me by Brian. Looking forward to comparing them to Mark Grant G2000HD WBT Cu's.
Has anyone done a similar test on speaker cables. Are there any bargains to be had?
Regards
Darren
wee tee cee
13-07-2014, 13:17
Darren,
I have swapped out MG/ wbt 0110 cu ag between dac and pre. I also run long lengths of the same between pre and amps and have ordered from Brian to replace these. Trust your own ears!!!
A similar speaker thread would be good fun- just started a thread on my latest uber budget experiment.
bronzeage
14-07-2014, 09:42
That's the first time I have heard of a customer breaking a Neutrik profi, they are a tight fit though aren't they.
If you send it in I will replace the connector just for the parts cost + return post, wont be much at all.
Cheers Mark, I will take you up on that when I get back from my holidays, so early August. I have very fond memories of that cable, and can certainly make use of it.
Been trying the Van Damme Ultra Whites twixt power amp/pre amp and pre/amp cd player (a 'full loom').
A cleaner sound compared to the Belkin Pure Av I usually deploy. More emphasis on the mid-bass. But - Cymbals hiss instead of shimmer. Been a while since I had a set up that did hissy cymbals. It is a cardinal sin in my book and something I cannot live with even for a second. Swapping back to the Belkins and it was pretty obvious that in my system the Van Damme was rolling off the top end quite significantly, losing the whole ambience of the recording in the process. Swapping in different cd players the effect was the same. A tidy, clean sound but a bit boring to listen to.
Your mileage may (and probably will) vary.
I must send you the Klotz AC110s I promised. Swing me your addy, via PM, and I'll sort it out on Monday! :)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
20-07-2014, 09:00
Been trying the Van Damme Ultra Whites twixt power amp/pre amp and pre/amp cd player (a 'full loom').
A cleaner sound compared to the Belkin Pure Av I usually deploy. More emphasis on the mid-bass. But - Cymbals hiss instead of shimmer. Been a while since I had a set up that did hissy cymbals. It is a cardinal sin in my book and something I cannot live with even for a second. Swapping back to the Belkins and it was pretty obvious that in my system the Van Damme was rolling off the top end quite significantly, losing the whole ambience of the recording in the process. Swapping in different cd players the effect was the same. A tidy, clean sound but a bit boring to listen to.
Your mileage may (and probably will) vary.
Yes.
Yes it does. :)
Mind you, mine have the Audioquest plugs on them, probably making a difference.
Yes.
Yes it does. :)
Mind you, mine have the Audioquest plugs on them, probably making a difference.
Hah! I was hoping someone would crop up to say that because it helps to confirm my hypothesis that all cable performance is context-dependant so trying to 'rank' them in order of performance in some sort of general manner is pointless. Which is tragic, really. as given that we are in the second decade of the 21st century and no-one seems to be able to quantify what interconnects to use with a particular combination of kit. Given that we should know from measurement the characteristics of both shouldn't it be possible to quantify - via mathematics - what cable characteristics are optimal for any given set-up?
Unfortunately, Martin, the maths can't allow for the influence of people's sonic preferences... ;)
Also, what I'd consider *really* tragic, is the day when we have become so dehumanised by technology, that some bland (and likely incomplete) mathematical calculations have replaced our ears!!
Now that truly would be tragic....
Marco.
icehockeyboy
20-07-2014, 10:08
Unfortunately, Martin, the maths can't allow for the influence of people's sonic preferences... ;)
Also, what I'd consider *really* tragic, is the day when we have become so dehumanised by technology, that some bland (and likely incomplete) mathematical calculations have replaced our ears!!
Now that truly would be tragic....
Marco.
:clapclapclap:
Unfortunately, Martin, the maths can't allow for the influence of people's sonic preferences... ;)
Also, what I'd consider *really* tragic, is the day when we have become so dehumanised by technology, that some bland (and likely incomplete) mathematic calculations have replaced our ears!!
Now that truly would be tragic....
Marco.
You misunderstand - it is not a question of sonic preferences but what works and what doesn't. No-one is going to prefer hissy cymbals. So why do the VD Ultra white do this in my system and not in Craigs? We really should be able to quantify this since there is clearly an incompatability somewhere. And yes I would love to be able to choose interconnects based on mathematical calculations, even if it just produced a shortlist of cables that should work it would save listening to every interconnect ever made trying to find the one that works the best in my set up.
You misunderstand - it is not a question of sonic preferences but what works and what doesn't. No-one is going to prefer hissy cymbals. So why do the VD Ultra white do this in my system and not in Craigs?
Sonic mismatch/lack of synegy - simples. In order to avoid that happening, one simply has to listen to the alternatives.
There will likely never be a better method for human beings to evaluate audio equipment than simply using their ears. Fallible, yes; but most likely less so, for the foreseeable future (in terms of assessing the most important criteria in audio,) than is any (incomplete) mathematical data.
We really should be able to quantify this since there is clearly an incompatibility somewhere. And yes I would love to be able to choose interconnects based on mathematical calculations, even if it just produced a shortlist of cables that should work it would save listening to every interconnect ever made trying to find the one that works the best in my set up.
I understand and appreciate where you're coming from, but I simply wouldn't trust any mathematical calculations to reliably tell me which cables were right for my system. I've got ears for that. Next, you'll be wanting a mathematical calculation that tells you the 'best system' to buy! :eyebrows:
You might be different, Martin, but you also strike me as the type of chap who would, if he could, simply pop some 'nutritional tablets' into his mouth as a complete replacement for food, if it provided you with all the necessary vitamins, whereas I enjoy the experience of eating and tasting real food far too much to ever entertain such a notion... ;)
Essentially, I enjoy being human, and all that this entails - even if it means embracing one's fallibilities :)
Marco.
potatoha
20-07-2014, 11:18
I doubt even John Atkinson, who does measurements of hi-fi equipment day in day out, can predict with confidence how a piece of hifi gear will actually sound like in real life based on extensive set of measurement alone. It is interesting for magazines such as stereophile, which I always take with a pinch of salt, there's a dichotomy between objective findings and subjective opinions that don't always come to an agreement. The impossibility of quantifying what sounds good and the impossibility of having a statistically significant consensus on what sounds good make audiophilia a painful yet pleasurable hobby in my view.
Late addition to this thread. After trying the Van Damme ultra white and the Klotz AC110 looms in my system without success progress ground to a halt. I was using a loom of the Belkin 'Pure AV' but was not entirely happy with it. Since I use an NVA passive pre I decided to consult NVA who unsurprisingly recommended using their cables, on the grounds that with a passive pre you need as low capacitance and resistance as possible.
So I had a punt on a loom of 'Soundcords' at £14 each delivered hardly breaking the bank plus there is a 28 day no quibble refund policy. Delivery was quick. The cables are very very thin with blingy gold plugs on them, they don't look like much but when I hooked them up it was a different story. I could tell from the first bar of music that this was a 'big' difference. I wasn't getting a bad sound with the Belkins but these cables have moved everything up a couple of notches. Particularly noticeable was the top end, which had opened up a lot, with lovely shimmer and decay on cymbals where previously I ws thinking that the B&O CD player I am currently playing with was just a bit too shut in 'up top' for my tastes.
The overall tone of the system was now sonorous and *very* sweet, without any hint of the slight fuzzy distortion that had been there previously. If I have one criticism (and it is churlish for a cable that only costs £14 delivered) it is that there is the loss of a little drive and slam in the bass compared to the Belkin loom. Not enough to be a deal-breaker but there nonetheless. I am advised by NVA that this should be remedied by upgrading to the more expensive cables that they offer. Well I've already blown the hi-fi budget for 2014 but based on the performance of these sound cords I am going to have to give the pricier option a try. I would certainly recommed trying these cables in your system, especially if you are using a passive pre.
Nice one, Martin. Good result - looks like synergy wins again! :)
Marco.
Yup, Sound Cords are my favourite budget ICs, you could trade up for the Super Sound Cords via NVA for a worthwhile improvement for only the cost difference.
Yup, Sound Cords are my favourite budget ICs, you could trade up for the Super Sound Cords via NVA for a worthwhile improvement for only the cost difference.
I had several pairs of Sound Cords and sold them about three years ago when I sold all my NVA equipment. Since then I tried various budget cables (under £100) and now back with a 1m Sound Cord. For the price its a billy bargain.
southall-1998
12-09-2014, 21:08
Agreed with above.
Sound cords are shockingly clear sounding cables.
S.
Super sound cords are good, but my DIY Klotz MC5000 are better in my system, to my ears. I can also build them cheaper.
If you can't solder, then you should try the SSC. I have never tried the sound cords, but the SSC were good. The MC5000 just gave me more,
It would be interesting to do a group cable test, with SSCs in the equation, along with MC5000s and, say, four others, in order to make up a half dozen set of different interconnect cables.
These could do a ‘round robin’, amongst members of AoS, all with different tastes and systems, and results reported at the end by the participants. Why don’t we make this happen? :)
Marco.
Marco,
I am happy to post you my SSC, as long as someone posts them back to me at the end of the trial.
They are pretty good, and I would like to hear your opinion of these against the Klotz MC5000.
Let’s do that then, Kevin, as I’d like to hear them for myself and compare them to the MC5000s. PM on the way! :)
Marco.
I'll get them in the post next week.
The PO is shut on a Saturday!
No rush, muchacho :)
Marco.
I posted a comment elsewhere and have been asked to post similar here if I may :)
Macca's comments on the SC prompted me to say from my personal experiences now that a SSC would 'do it' in terms of fleshing everything out without taking any of the existing positives away...
Re Klotz comparisons :) - I now have my office main system (AVI MP+P preamp and both HH VX300 and 'headphone' Crown D-60) wired with Klotz 5000 cables, my SSC used from the 'direct' output of the AVI into the NVA AP20 which will have to be returned soon :( I was rather negative on the Klotz at first, as posted a few weeks back and must admit to a certain 'resistance' to the more 'organic' sounds of some interconnects such as the standard Atratus cable for instance (Mark YNWOAN and I have shared interesting and opposing observations on this cable), but have to swallow some humble pie here. the Klotz AC110 and 5000 mic cables will NEVER emphasise harshness or 'grit' in matching electronics, but with prolonged use, the 'organic' qualities are significantly tamed and basic neutrality takes over. These 'differences' are extremely small though and I doubt I'd hear much if anything between them if blindfolded...
Marco, good luck with your proposed mini bakefoff. If you'd like to try the Atratus (£50 version), please let me know :)
brian2957
13-09-2014, 09:32
Thanks for your appraisal of the interconnects Dave . I had a pair of Soundcords connected to an AP20 a couple of years ago and remember being very happy with them . Unfortunately I decided to try a valve amp and sold the AP20 to fund the purchase . The SCs became redundant as they were too short and were subsequently sold . Back then I began to experiment with making my own cables again and produced a couple which I was happy with . This proved to be expensive though as top quality wire isn't cheap . My point is that the Soundcords are very good VFM and I would be interested to hear a comparison between them , the SSCs the MS Audio / MC5000 interconnects. I think though that we have to remember the synergy thing here as Marco pointed out earlier . There aren't many cables around which will give of their best in every system .
Enjoy the show :)
Just a little note to people elsewhere on the web, the SSC I have are in the same condition as I bought them from the supplier. I did unscrew the outer sections of the RCA plugs just to see how the cable was constructed, and how neat the workmanship was. No complaints on either from me. As for the other comments, they are laughable.
Marco will get a 100% functioning set of SSC. I am happy to have these posted to any one of the members "elsewher for verification that they have not been altered, as long as you post them back to me after. I still use them from time to time.
Ammonite Audio
13-09-2014, 14:30
I have a set of NVA SSC on the vinyl side of my system which I find to be preferable to Mark Grant G2000HD; also a great deal easier to use, owing to a lack of irritating WBT NextGen plugs!
It would be interesting to do a group cable test, with SSCs in the equation, along with MC5000s and, say, four others, in order to make up a half dozen set of different interconnect cables.
These could do a ‘round robin’, amongst members of AoS, all with different tastes and systems, and results reported at the end by the participants. Why don’t we make this happen? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
When you have finished listening to the three cables I loaned you, and you have reported your findings, I will be in a position to write a group review of ten "SPPV cables" as auditioned by six sets of ears, in five very different systems.
All of these interconnects use stock cable 'off the drum' as used by professional recording studio and broadcast institutions and by the aerospace industry and in computer networks. None of them cost more than a few pounds per metre. Some of them have been fitted with high quality (expensive) RCA phonos, and some with connectors of a more modest construction.
Yup, Barry, and I look forward to reading your findings. I’ll be finalising my thoughts on the cables you’ve loaned me over the next day or so, and will let you know.
No harm adding some SSCs into the mix, especially as Kevin has kindly volunteered to send me them :)
Marco.
SSC in the post Marco.
I hope you enjoy it.
The NVA SSC should be with you soon.
I await with interest to hear your thoughts on how it compares with the MC5000.
If you want to send it on elsewhere when you finish, that is fine with me as long as it makes it's way back to France at some point.
As you know the SSCs have arrived and l'll be listening to them later in the week, along with some other ‘studio type’ cables Barry’s sent me. Results will be posted here :)
Marco.
The NVA SSC should be with you soon.
I await with interest to hear your thoughts on how it compares with the MC5000.
If you want to send it on elsewhere when you finish, that is fine with me as long as it makes it's way back to France at some point.
Kevin, could I try out the SSC after Marco please mate? Macca has suggested the SSC may solve a wee issue I have with my system so it would be good to know for sure :)
No problem at all with you trying them.
When I’ve finished, Dave, I’ll fling ‘em over to you :cool:
Marco.
When I’ve finished, Dave, I’ll fling ‘em over to you :cool:
Marco.
Excellent... Thanks dude... :)
Well, I’ve now carried out some detailed comparisons between the SSCs and my usual Klotz MC5000s, the results of which have been very interesting... Full write-up tomorrow, folks, so don’t miss it! :)
Marco.
I'm interested to see what you think of these in comparison.
It will be interesting to see how two runs of RG316/U compares to a single run of MC5000.
The amusing thing about this is whole thing is that apparently I have messed about with the SSC that Marco currently has. Get real chap. :mental: Why would I damage my own property?
It amuses me. It's almost as if someone is worried about how his cables will perform, against the idea that Brian stole from him. :scratch: Apparently the MC5000 cables that Brian makes are a copy of the SSC.
Brian, if you are reading this, can you tell me how long you have owned Klotz? Quite an odd opinion, as the SSC is two runs/lengths of cable per channel, and the MC5000 is just one.
Marco, any chances of pictures of the soldered connections etc. of the SSC to show that the cables you used have not been harmed in the production of this mini bake-off?
Hi Kevin,
I’ll see what I can do with pics (will do my best), but I’m not promising anything. Worry not about ‘Wiki-boy’s’ blinkered delusions. The funniest thing is watching him jumping up and down like a tit, moaning about the delay of my report, when apparently he doesn’t give a damn what I think! :lol:
Yes, work that one out (inside the head of a moron)…. :mental:
Anyway, some of us have a life, where other things are more important than writing about hi-fi cables, so I’ll be posting the report when I'm good and ready!
That will now most likely be tomorrow (for definite), as I’m currently just about to tuck into a rather nice piece of aged and hung local ribeye steak, washed down with a bottle of Amarone, so I won’t be in much of a fit state afterwards to type bollocks about cables :eyebrows: :cheers:
Marco.
brian2957
10-10-2014, 21:50
The amusing thing about this is whole thing is that apparently I have messed about with the SSC that Marco currently has. Get real chap. :mental: Why would I damage my own property?
It amuses me. It's almost as if someone is worried about how his cables will perform, against the idea that Brian stole from him. :scratch: Apparently the MC5000 cables that Brian makes are a copy of the SSC.
Brian, if you are reading this, can you tell me how long you have owned Klotz? Quite an odd opinion, as the SSC is two runs/lengths of cable per channel, and the MC5000 is just
Marco, any chances of pictures of the soldered connections etc. of the SSC to show that the cables you used have not been harmed in the production of this mini bake-off?
Kevin I'll get back to you mate.
Right, folks, I’m going to keep this short and sweet, as I don’t have a lot of time on my hands right now…
Listening to the SSC cables Kevin sent me instantly revealed that they were very good and excellent value for money, given the ‘performance’ on offer - and by that I simply mean how much they ‘get out of the way’ of the music, as I don’t believe in using cables as glorified tone controls. In the case of the SSCs, that’s largely what they did, as unlike many cables I’ve heard recently, they possess little ‘sonic signature’ and simply, as faithfully as possible, relay the music signal from one component to another.
However, there is one aspect of their sonic performance which I feel deserves a special mention, as I believe it’s superior to that of most other interconnect cables I’ve used, and that’s one of wide bandwidth/high-frequency extension, where the SSCs appear to offer more of an ‘open window’ into recordings than other cables I’ve used. It’s rather like comparing a moving-coil cartridge with a high-frequency response of 70,000Hz, to a moving-magnet cartridge, with one of 25,000Hz.
The former, due to its wider bandwidth and superior high-frequency extension, creates an impression of greater ‘air and space’ around voices and instruments, and notably improves detail retrieval - and so it is with the SSCs, in comparison with most other interconnect cables I’ve used. The net result of this effect is that they subjectively sound very ‘fast’ (I suspect due to their perceived wide bandwidth), as in transients are reproduced with the requisite 'attack’, in order to make snare drums, for example, sound suitably realistic. I judge the latter with what I call the ‘blink factor’.
With the SSCs in the equation, the drums on ‘Take 5’, by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, caused me to blink in the expected manner, such was the crispness of their transient attack, when reproduced by the Tannoys, which possess the clarity, scale and authority to make all acoustic instruments sound scarily real - and in that respect the SSCs held nothing back. Shimmering cymbals were also rendered as particularly lifelike, again I suspect due to the perceived wide bandwidth/high-frequency extension of the SSCs.
The ‘speed’ and wide bandwidth I’m referring to with these cables I suspect could also be measured objectively, as subjectively, certainly in my system, this is an area where they excel over most other cables I’ve heard. I also don’t buy the claim some make that the SSCs are bright sounding. I simply found them wide-open and revealing, so if they’re perceived as bright, then blame your system, not the cables. The SSCs simply dig deep into the musical programme and let you hear what’s there, warts and all, but in a way that’s always unfailingly enjoyable and never sterile.
Downsides?
Well, nothing in audio is perfect. Compared with my reference Klotz MC5000s, the SSCs lack a little low-frequency extension, but of course that could be a system-dependent thing. My gut feeling, however, is that these cables are ‘voiced’ (through design and construction) to primarily excel at delivering accurate mid and high-frequencies, slightly (and I mean slightly) at the expense of revealing the lowest octaves embedded in music recordings. In short, I suspect that, compared with cables that excel in delivering accurate low-frequencies (e.g the Klotz MC5000) the SSCs are just a touch reticent in that area.
However, it’s a trade-off I’d most often happily make, as the majority of the music is in the midrange, so that’s where the ‘magic’ should always be. Furthermore, I’d like to hear these cables with better plugs fitted (read as ones with less metal used in their construction and either the use of solid copper or silver conductors), as I’m confident that would further increase their (already excellent) performance. The use of the superb MS Audio plugs, discussed here, shouldn’t increase their price too much either.
Would I swap my Klotz MC5000s for some SSCs? No, simply because I’m happy with the former as they gel very well with the musical presentation of my system (possessing an addictive ‘liquidity’ and musical flow the SSCs couldn't quite match - IME a trademark of Klotz cables), although I would certainly recommend the SSCs to anyone looking for top quality interconnects at a very good price! :cool:
Marco.
Interesting and thanks for sharing.
I find my home made SSC (two lengths of the SC cable, screens insulated away and both cables covered in heatshrink but with NO woven jacket to confuse with the 'real thing'), offers more bass 'heft' than the stock SC.
I'm using the Klotz 5000 (RCA - screen connected, to 14" jack - just the inner conductors) between pre and HH power amp in the office system and it's fine, but unlike you, I find the 5000 cable/MS plugs as made by Brian, to still sound a little 'rounded' in bass timbres, although the treble sorted itself out a long time ago. Like you say, best to try in one's own system.
I'd like to add this though - and apologies if I shouldn't... Changing the amp to an NVA really does seem to put these cable 'comparisons' into perspective. All The Doc's electronic products share a similar (relative lack of) character, a lack of 'grain,' a lovely 3-D midband when the recording allows it and in many ways, do remind me of 'valves done properly' (he'll kill me for saying that :lol:). Not going to say more, as I'm 'too close to the action' these days... Tell you something though, The Doc ONLY has one face, unlike some others in this goddamned industry. You get face to face what you would get online!
Marco,
Get some of this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RG316U-LOT-OF-5-m-16-4-feet-COAXIAL-CABLE-MADE-IN-ENGLAND-EUROPEAN-QUALITY-/271532643569?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3f389b54f1 and get Brian to knock you one up with the MS Audio plugs.
Interesting that despite the difference in rooms and equipment used Marco's assessment of the SSC pretty much mirrors my own. Re the 'brightness' I would agree that the upper mid is slightly spotlit but I only found this to be a minor issue with a couple of digital recordings where I was tempted to use the level controls on my Akais to drop the top by a notch, although the effect was so slight and momentary that in the end I did not feel it worth the bother of dragging my raggedy ass out of the listening seat. But as Marco says that may be down to my set up (particularly the CD player I was using) rather than the cable. Hearing a busy studio recording with all its individual tracks laid out before you in their own acoustic space with absolutely no distort or grunge, as though you were at the mixing desk, is quite a revelatory experience and does require a little bit of self adjustment if, like me, you have not heretofore taken your system that 'far'.
BTH K10A
11-10-2014, 22:39
Interesting that despite the difference in rooms and equipment used Marco's assessment of the SSC pretty much mirrors my own. Re the 'brightness' I would agree that the upper mid is slightly spotlit but I only found this to be a minor issue with a couple of digital recordings where I was tempted to use the level controls on my Akais to drop the top by a notch, although the effect was so slight and momentary that in the end I did not feel it worth the bother of dragging my raggedy ass out of the listening seat. But as Marco says that may be down to my set up (particularly the CD player I was using) rather than the cable. Hearing a busy studio recording with all its individual tracks laid out before you in their own acoustic space with absolutely no distort or grunge, as though you were at the mixing desk, is quite a revelatory experience and does require a little bit of self adjustment if, like me, you have not heretofore taken your system that 'far'.
Although in my experience cables make very little difference, they do act as subtle tone controls and low capacitance cables will give less roll off on HF (at he expense of bass) than higher capacitance ones. The differences should be only subtle though, none of this night and day mularky.
At the end of the day it's always about striking the right balance across the frequency range.
walpurgis
11-10-2014, 23:04
Although in my experience cables make very little difference.
To what? Cheap cables are bloody awful. The law of diminishing returns applies very much to all cables, but it's definitely worth having at least half decent ones.
I also do a bit of 'system tuning' via cable selection. This seems to work very noticeably with interconnects, but speaker cables have differing characteristics too.
BTH K10A
12-10-2014, 08:08
To what? Cheap cables are bloody awful. The law of diminishing returns applies very much to all cables, but it's definitely worth having at least half decent ones.
I also do a bit of 'system tuning' via cable selection. This seems to work very noticeably with interconnects, but speaker cables have differing characteristics too.
To my system. Very small changes in balance between low and high frequencies, but that's about all. But perhaps I just have a crap system that no amount of cable swapping will help. :eek:
Not all cheap cables are as you put it "bloody awful" and spending a lot of money gives no guarantee of better SQ. :rolleyes:
Spend more than £5 to £10 per metre for the cable plus interconnects and the only diminishing return you will see is in your wallet. ;)
As long as a cable is well constructed, and there are lots of cheap ones that are, then it's more about finding the cables with the LCR characteristics that give the tonal balace you prefer.
My main point was that if changing interconnects or speaker cables makes a huge difference as some people claim, then there is something else amiss.
My main point was that if changing interconnects or speaker cables makes a huge difference as some people claim, then there is something else amiss.
I totally agree, hence why the Slic fiasco (and ludicrous claims of ’system transformations’) was precisely that: a fiasco!
However, there’s no doubt, IMO, that there are cables available now that are significantly better at maintaining the integrity of the music signal than others, and in a good system those (yes, subtle) differences should be readily apparent, and thus easily discernible.
I also agree that such cables needn’t be expensive, which is why the (£25 per metre pair) Klotz MC5000 cables, I use, do the job nicely - as indeed do the SSCs.
Marco.
P.S. How much, incidentally, are the latter? That question is directed at anyone here who knows.
A 1m pair of SSC will cost you £70 + P&P. Readily available through his shop on eBay.
This had an influence on why I chose the MC5000 when it comes to VFM. Sound wise, I found them pretty similar regarding sound quality, but as my system was lacking bass, the SSC just didn't quite do it for me.
Add this to the fact that the manufacturer now insults me on his forum, I certainly won't be considering any NVA products in future, no matter how good they are.
A case of buyer beware with this vendor IMO. If you get on with him, you will have no problems. If you don't see eye to eye, forget it.
Let’s focus on the product please, Kevin, not the manufacturer.
£70? That’s a little more than I had thought… In my mind they were around the £35 mark - perhaps that’s the SCs?
However, at £70 they’re still a lot better than many, much more expensive cables I’ve heard, but certainly not (in my system) better overall than the £25 MC5000s, which also use much better plugs, although of course much will depend on which cables match best/achieve sonic synergy with your particular system.
Marco.
The sound cord is £21 + P&P for a metre pair.
Much more of a bargain.
Ah, thanks for that. I’ve not heard those, but if they offer, say 85-90% of the performance of the SSCs, then yes, they’d be a bargain :)
Marco.
Macca might have some he could lend you? If you asked him nicely?
Very generous of me offering out his cables....:eek:
The new SSP looks interesting, as the fragility of the cables due to mishandling seem to have been designed out.
The Mk1 SSP are on sale on eBay at 50% off if anybody fancies a bargain?
A 40cm set of SSC is £34 delivered so if you don't need a longer one that is pretty cheap as cables go.
Dave Synsei has my brace of SC at the moment...
To my system. Very small changes in balance between low and high frequencies, but that's about all. But perhaps I just have a crap system that no amount of cable swapping will help. :eek:
Not all cheap cables are as you put it "bloody awful" and spending a lot of money gives no guarantee of better SQ. :rolleyes:
Spend more than £5 to £10 per metre for the cable plus interconnects and the only diminishing return you will see is in your wallet. ;)
As long as a cable is well constructed, and there are lots of cheap ones that are, then it's more about finding the cables with the LCR characteristics that give the tonal balace you prefer.
My main point was that if changing interconnects or speaker cables makes a huge difference as some people claim, then there is something else amiss.
I don't really disagree with any of this, but if you were using cables that unbalance the sound and then swap to some that don't you are going to regard it as a noticeable improvement. Like the difference between a steak that is slightly overcooked and one that is spot on.
I was browsing cables the other day, and saw this:
http://www.viablue.de/com/nfs1_silver_quattro_analogue_audio_cable.shtml
I don't think it will be much of an improvement on the MC5000, but if you have a noisy environment, it may help.
Looks interesting - but at some point with cables (and anything else related with audio) you have to call it day, and say: ‘I’m sorted now’, and just enjoy the music… That’s where I’m at now :)
Marco.
Marco, Cagey and friends :respect:
PLEASE don't rule out the rather good MG HD1000 at around fifty notes supplied with basic plugs. They were the dogs danglies not that long ago and nothing has changed there. The sonics aren't as 'cuddly' as I find the Klotz to be, but they are properly made, the cable is well specified to do the job (maybe too good for all I know) and they are utterly consistent!
I'm not shilling for Mark Grant, but he has stayed totally silent during all this and just not got involved. Not everyone is good enough to solder to a high standard - and my God has my soldering skill been tested in recent months. Brian does a great job with the Klotz - and FORTY FIVE QUID (not twenty Marco) is very fair should he decide to make it a commercial reality as the components, bought in low quantities, aren't anything like as cheap as you'd think... I do like the SC and SSC and shall continue to use them and personally, I still find all these (MG 1000HD, Klotz MC5000 AND AC110, SC and SSC especially) better than a 'type 1 Atratus' myself, which is also a well presented interconnect for fifty notes or so.
Anyway - and I hope you lot will agree - ALL the cables we've been discussing are available for not too much money. If they were sold via a dealer chain like Sevenoaks, they'd have to retail at the thick end of two hundred pounds, as they'd have to have posh packaging (costing nearly as much as the cable and plugs together - the MS plugs would be too expensive!) and offer huge margins to the shops so the sales staff could get some commission out of it, the dealer earning far more out of the product as sold than the manufacturer would - been there and done it both sides of the fence first hand, so I'm not talking cr@p here!!!!!!!
Marco, Cagey and friends :respect:
PLEASE don't rule out the rather good MG HD1000 at around fifty notes supplied with basic plugs. They were the dogs danglies not that long ago and nothing has changed there. The sonics aren't as 'cuddly' as I find the Klotz to be, but they are properly made, the cable is well specified to do the job (maybe too good for all I know) and they are utterly consistent!
I'm not shilling for Mark Grant, but he has stayed totally silent during all this and just not got involved.
Well this thread is about enthusiasts discussing the cheaper interconnects that they have tried so it wouldn't really be appropriate for a manufacturer of interconnects to intervene. I think it is important to point out (again!) that there is no 'universal cable hierarchy' like a league table running from best to worst. Best is what works well in your system, irrespective of cost and who makes it. Given the EU distance selling regs anyone can try any of these interconnects in their own system and return for a full refund if they don't suit. All this thread does is alert folk to some of the many and various options that are available to try for themselves.
Dave,
My personal objective with this was to find an interconnect that I could cable up my entire system with, at a reasonable cost. I had some Mark Grant cables and they were very good. Mine were the 1500 and 2000 though. The NVA SSC, as I have said before are also good. I always wanted to try the SSP too, but having found a cable that was easy to solder up, and sounded great there was no need.
I'm tempted to order a SSP at the 50% discounted price, just to see what it's like compared to the SSC. I'm inquisitive by nature.
Hi Dave,
PLEASE don't rule out the rather good MG HD1000 at around fifty notes supplied with basic plugs. They were the dogs danglies not that long ago and nothing has changed there.
Absolutely - I have the highest respect for Mark, as a person, and his products - and that will always be the case.
The sonics aren't as 'cuddly' as I find the Klotz to be…
I’m afraid that I disagree there rather vehemently, as in my system (and in Brian’s, which I’ve also heard) there is nothing “cuddly” whatsoever about the sonics of the Klotz - quite the opposite, in fact! You should know me by now - I would never use anything in my system that sounds remotely “cuddly”!! :nono:
Brian does a great job with the Klotz - and FORTY FIVE QUID (not twenty Marco)…
I’m talking about if you buy the wire and plugs direct from a wholesaler and assemble the cables yourself. If so, you *can* build a 1m pair of MC5000s, fitted with MS Audio Starline plugs, for £25.
Anyway - and I hope you lot will agree - ALL the cables we've been discussing are available for not too much money. If they were sold via a dealer chain like Sevenoaks, they'd have to retail at the thick end of two hundred pounds, as they'd have to have posh packaging (costing nearly as much as the cable and plugs together...
Indeed, but this is AoS, where we have an active community of dedicated enthusiasts, keen to extract maximum musical enjoyment from their systems, with minimal financial outlay - and as such where the focus will ALWAYS be on achieving maximum SPPV. That principle is at the core of our ethos.
The ‘hi-fi snobs’ and badge worshipers can go elsewhere for their audio fix ;)
Marco.
brian2957
12-10-2014, 16:00
Excellent and informative write-up Marco . I think it's important to remember ( as has been pointed out here ) that not all cables will work well in all systems . I've never heard the SSCs but it sounds like they are excellent VFM .
Marco,
When you have finished with the SSC, can you forward them on to Dave (Synsei) please?
Dave, I'll drop you a PM about the shipping address.
Don't forget, if you are interested in trying the NVA products, the manufacturer offers a money back trial period through hos ebay shop.
Marco,
When you have finished with the SSC, can you forward them on to Dave (Synsei) please?
Already sorted, mate :)
Marco.
Incidentally, as I was in a bit of a hurry when I typed my review of the SSCs, I’ve now edited it, in order for it to better encapsulate my thoughts. See here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32820-VFM-SPPV-studio-cables-test&p=587554#post587554
Marco.
cyclopse
13-10-2014, 19:12
Ordered 10 metres today. Already have the MS Audio RCAs so will let everyone know how I get on. Will it get relegated to the 5.1 setup?
Sovereign
13-10-2014, 22:18
Dave,
My personal objective with this was to find an interconnect that I could cable up my entire system with, at a reasonable cost. I had some Mark Grant cables and they were very good. Mine were the 1500 and 2000 though. The NVA SSC, as I have said before are also good. I always wanted to try the SSP too, but having found a cable that was easy to solder up, and sounded great there was no need.
I'm tempted to order a SSP at the 50% discounted price, just to see what it's like compared to the SSC. I'm inquisitive by nature.
I've got some SSP i could sell you cheaper than that.
Really?
Could you PM the detail please?
cyclopse
16-10-2014, 19:13
Construction finished and now plumbed in. Initial testing tonight but initial opinion is that this is very good indeed regardless of price. Using between Nagra DAC and pre amp.
Regards
Cyclopse
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/cyclopse14/20141016_160235.jpg
brian2957
16-10-2014, 19:23
Hi Stephen , very nice mate . What cable are you using ?
cyclopse
16-10-2014, 19:32
Hi Stephen , very nice mate . What cable are you using ?
Its Klotz MC5000 with shield not connected. Just put some white 6mm braid on top. Thought it looked a little naked without.
brian2957
16-10-2014, 19:36
You've made a very nice job there . Just give the cables 30 hours or more to settle in and I'm sure they will get even better :)
cyclopse
29-10-2014, 22:09
Here is the finished balanced version. Stunning value again from Valab with these rhodium plated XLRs. Interesting to try the Klotz in its true balanced configuration.
http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh538/cyclopse14/20141029_214131.jpg
Rather than dilute the Epiphany Acoustics 'Atratus III' interconnect thread anymore, I'll post my latest "news" here.
Basically, I have made a RG316/U based cable fitted with MS Audio rhodium plated plugs.
I have made the cable up, and the first potential problem has come to light. The MS Audio plug does not have any strain relief, so I am going to have to be careful with my DIY cable. I would need to build up a support with heat shrink or similar to make it more robust, but as it's not likely to be a permanent fixture, I have not bothered for now. If it performs really well, then I will address this issue later.
I have not over braided the cable. It adds no audible benefit that I am aware of unless you use a braid that forms an additional shield.
It was relatively easy to prepare and solder up, but care needs to be taken to ensure that the shield is well trimmed back and does not come into contact with the core, just like any coax. I have added heat shrink over the ends to make sure this does not happen, and to offer a little support to the core cable.
I have plugged in into my system, and have it feeding Firebottle's Pre Amp from my phono stage. It sounds pretty good, with no obvious weaknesses. If I was being picky, then maybe the bass is not quite as deep as the previous cable, but the midrange and treble are very good.
The idea of this is to see if the plugs make a difference. I'll fit some cheaper plugs to some more RG316/U I have lying around later, so I can do a back to back comparison.
I have made the cable up, and the first potential problem has come to light. In the NVA cable, the plug has strain relief built in.
I suspect that the above (and the fact that they are cheap) are the only reasons why those plugs are used ;)
Marco.
Sovereign
01-11-2014, 12:43
I.havent sent you the SSP yet sorry, I've had an unexpectany crazy couple of weeks, I also have a load of SSC cable that is genuinely from Nva if that's of interest.
I already have a genuine SSC thanks.
I was just interested to see how much better the SSP is. There is no rush, and to be quite honest I am not that bothered if you don't send it to me, and I wouldn't be able to buy more if I did like it.
The Christmas card list is definitely shorter this year.
A few hours in, and my DIY cable based on RG316/U cable and MS Audio plugs seems to be settling in nicely.
James,
Forget about the SSP. The fact that you have chosen the MC5000 cables tells me all I need to know.
I suspect that the above (and the fact that they are cheap) are the only reasons why those plugs are used ;)
Marco.
Not as cheap as the Neutrik Rean ones unless bought in hundreds, in which case it's pennies a plug - honest guvnor. The NVA plugs LOOK cheap, that's all, but actually measure and perform very well (I knew years ago a version of these available in black from Maplin and they were perfect for the Shark silver plated cable they do or once did)...
I'm now using the SSC AND Klotz in the revolving 'office' system and am happy with both for totally different reasons :)
Sovereign
01-11-2014, 14:46
A few hours in, and my DIY cable based on RG316/U cable and MS Audio plugs seems to be settling in nicely.
James,
Forget about the SSP. The fact that you have chosen the MC5000 cables tells me all I need to know.
Ok mate, when do you get your new Pre?
brian2957
01-11-2014, 14:48
All reet James . What's an Ore ?
A misspelt "Pre".
I have bought a Pro-Ject Pre Box RS.
Sovereign
01-11-2014, 14:52
Sorry chaps, predictive text, I meant when is Mr wonky getting his new pre amp?
brian2957
01-11-2014, 14:53
Hah ! I'm easily confused Kevin . :scratch::lol: Hope you like the new box . You and James have PMs .
The NVA plugs LOOK cheap, that's all...
Ok, so what’s NOT cheap about them, then?
The SSC cables I tried (fitted with said plugs) certainly performed very well, but I suspect that may have been in spite of the plugs used, rather than because of them.
Quite simply, I can hear, very clearly, the difference between plugs that use brass conductors and those that use solid-copper or silver ones (and the inherently sonically detrimental effects of the former), on every cable I’ve tried to date, so why should the SSCs be any different?
Marco.
I was going to suggest a vintage MF XP100 (not the soft sounding X-pre), or possibly the Cyrus preamp (I only know the first one with optional balanced outs and that was amazingly good as I recall). Both were cheap enough not too long ago.
During the testing it's become clear that I prefer the MC5000 in my system.
Used to it? I guess so. It's a familiar cable now, and I quite like what the MC5000 does.
Needs a few more hours really to be sure that it has settled in. It could be that the thinner RG316/U isn't quite so good for passing low frequency information.
Now, do the plugs make any difference?
I'll probably make up another RG316/U based cable with some cheaper plugs I bought from Compass Audio to see if they work.
Somehow, I doubt that they will make any difference to what I hear.
Although as somebody who does not believe that plugs make much difference, I won't be rushing into this.
This can wait a little longer until the version I made today has settled down in my system.
While the cable settles in, I'll probably browse the internet/audio forums to see what other DIY interconnects are being made that could improve on the MC5000.
As always, the aim is to get the best sound I can for the minimal outlay.
This leaves me more cash to buy the most important part of any system.
The music.
The MC5000 does have a juicier mid-bass, which comes under far better control (for some reason) as the hours go up - in my systems. My personal jury's still out on whether this bass heft is 'correct' or not, since none of the other cables I've used recently do this in the same way. For instance, the sort of 'better bass' you get when upgrading a power supply, isn't the sort of 'improved bass' I feel the Klotz gives. Having said this and having fitted the stuff weeks ago, I've pretty well forgotten it's there now, so it certainly isn't doing anything untoward :)
Bloody bits of wire, I ask you :lol:
I think I'll try some RG58/U RG59/U next, and see what that does, one being pure copper rather than silver plated copper clad steel, and the other copper plated steel.
Lets see if the material makes a difference as well.
The MC5000 does have a juicier mid-bass, which comes under far better control (for some reason) as the hours go up - in my systems. My personal jury's still out on whether this bass heft is 'correct' or not, since none of the other cables I've used recently do this in the same way.
Well, as you can imagine with the speakers I use in my system, in a smallish room, there is no shortage of bass heft. Therefore, if the MC5000 was inherently ‘full toned’ or had a ‘juicy mid-bass’, you’d think that effect would be exacerbated in my system, but that certainly isn’t the case, as indeed Macca, for example, would no doubt confirm. Bass is deep and tight.
IMO, the MC5000 is simply a very neutral, even-handed cable, and so any claims about it being ‘smooth’ or ‘full toned’ says more about the balance of the system they’ve been used in than the cables themselves.
Marco.
I still think that the MC5000 will be hard to beat, but that won't stop me trying. ;)
Well, as you can imagine with the speakers I use in my system, in a smallish room, there is no shortage of bass heft. Therefore, if the MC5000 was inherently ‘full toned’ or had a ‘juicy mid-bass’, you’d think that effect would be exacerbated in my system, but that certainly isn’t the case, as indeed Macca, for example, would no doubt confirm. Bass is deep and tight.
IMO, the MC5000 is simply a very neutral, even-handed cable, and so any claims about it being ‘smooth’ or ‘full toned’ says more about the balance of the system they’ve been used in than the cables themselves.
Marco.
My opinion in my systems and with the music I play Marco. Nothing more, nothing less. Has the £50 MG HD1000 been totally out-classed now for you?
By the way, I remember hifi dave making some of his custom interconnects for me (now unavailable Furukawa star-quad) twenty five years ago. In the all-valve setups I was using, they sounded amazing (and his examples still do). In the ATC/AVI systems I gravitated to, they sounded mid-recessed and I lolloped off in a different direction. I still have a very short set and use it on the Arcam delta 80 tuner and very good it sounds here. I have enough to make another 70cm pair, but shall need to sort the plugs out as we used some Audio Technica ones which are long discontinued. I'm not sure I like the plugs Rega now use on their new cables, and having now used the MS plugs, I think I might try them, as they have a smoothness in action (plugging and unplugging) I like :)
My opinion in my systems and with the music I play Marco. Nothing more, nothing less. Has the £50 MG HD1000 been totally out-classed now for you?
Nope, not at all. It was the more expensive HD2000s I was using, btw. Both the MG cables are superb (and highly recommended), but as my whole system is based around achieving maximum SPPV, it would be churlish of me now not to use interconnects that offer a similar type of sonic performance as the MGs, for a fraction of the price (£30 versus £280). Therefore, it’s simple economics :)
Anyway, all we’re doing is relating our respective experiences to others (there are no ‘rights’ or ‘wrongs’ here), all of which is good! :cool:
Marco.
I think I'll try some RG58/U RG59/U next, and see what that does, one being pure copper rather than silver plated copper clad steel, and the other copper plated steel.
Lets see if the material makes a difference as well.
Both RG58 and RG59 use unplated copper for their conductors.
Marco has already heard cables I have made using RG58 and RG223 and liked both of them.
I've had a good listen to my system with the DIY cable (RG316 fitted with MS Audio Rhodium plated plugs) fitted between my phone stage and headphone amp and it lacks the bass slam of the Klotz.
Whether this is down to the smaller CSA of the cable I am not sure, so the plugs are coming off it to free them up for another cable.
I'm going to try and find a cable with a slightly bigger CSA next, and see if that can oust the MC5000 in my system.
The last cable I am going to try is Viablue NF-S1.
ViaBlue™ NF-S1 Silver Quattro Analogue high-end audio cable yields music with faithful reproduction at all frequencies. The sound is completely linear and undistorted. The silver-plating of both screens makes it possible to perceive even the most subtle musical variations in the high-frequency range with hi-fidelity. The goal is to play back music the same way it was recorded - without any distortion. NF-S1 performs this task exceptionally well.
The balanced construction has two inner tin-plated 0.5 mm2 copper wires with 19 individual strands (19 x 0.185 mm) and polyethylene insulation. Two twisted PVC insulators are used as fillers. The Quattro Silver Shield multiple screening has two ALU-PETP films and two silver-plated spiral wrap screens running in opposite directions with fine 0.15 mm strands. There is a felt layer between the screen and the outer cladding to protect the outer silver screen. NF-S1 has an outside diameter of 8 mm.
Technical specifications:
Outter diameter: 8 mm
Capacity conductor: 50pF/M | screen: 100 pF/M
Screenings: 4 (2X spiral screen / 2X foil screen)
Finishing: silvered / tinned
Play in time: appr. 22 hours
Based on my non scientific findings, I think that larger CSA multistranded cable is better.
Twisted pair seems to give a better sound than the coax I have used in my system. I don't expect it to be much of an improvement on the MC5000 though, but to find out, I need to try it.
The Via Blue are a little bit of a mixed bag IMO; performed quite well in the LF department - bass had good slam and definition - less so in the top end which I found to be a tad too recessed and shut in for my tastes. Not the last word in detail retrieval either. Good material value but I think there are better cables out there at their price point.
Thanks for the info John.
Based on your opinion I'll do a little more digging on these before I buy any.
Thanks for the info John.
Based on your opinion I'll do a little more digging on these before I buy any.
Hi Kevin,
Don't know if you are familiar with these: http://www.wss-kabelshop.de/index.php/cat/c7_Interconnects.html/XTCsid/righ0001i40si3t7pr2js2au84
Had a good listen to a couple of their interconnects and must say I was quite impressed. To my ears, they certainly outperformed the Via Blue across the board. Great VFM in my opinion.
John,
Thanks for the info. I'm actually after a bulk cable to make into a DIY interconnect.
John,
Thanks for the info. I'm actually after a bulk cable to make into a DIY interconnect.
They offer off the reel cable as well: http://www.wss-kabelshop.de/index.php/cat/c11_b-u-y-the-meter.html
Thanks.
I missed that vital fact. :eek:
What rca plug are people using that's not mega expensive ? I seem to remember someone saying 14 quid for four somewhere in this thread but cant find the link .
Gerry
brian2957
06-11-2014, 02:42
MS Audio Star Line http://www.ebay.com/itm/MS-Audio-Star-Line-Rhodium-Plated-Tellurium-Copper-RCA-Plugs-2-Pair-/291281220420?pt=US_Audio_Cables_Adapters&hash=item43d1b6b344#ht_794wt_1106
Very good VFM plugs .
Cheers Brian them's the one :)
Got my ms plugs a nd mc5000 after on bit of advice do you use the shield connected at one end ?
Some people like myself do, others don't.
Another combination to try is both conductors for the feed, and the shield as the return.
There is no set rule, just change it to suit your ears.
brian2957
24-11-2014, 12:09
Yup , as Kevin says you can try them either way . I build these cables with the shield floating ( disconnected at both ends ) and every person who has bought a pair has been very happy with them that way .
I have rewired one of my MC5000 cables with the conductors as a feed, and shield as return, and I have to say it sounds pretty good. Well worth trying to see if it suits your system and ears IMHO.
Brian's bringing over a couple of sets of his latest creations to let me hear in my system, looking forward to it.
his MC5000/MS Audio rhodium/ floating ground currently the best SPPV cable ive heard with my kit.
You may find this one better. He has made one up.
Yeah, Brian's been keeping me up to speed on how he's getting on with the cables.
Will be interesting :)
I have asked him to try a "blind test" if possible.
The results from that could be really interesting.
I have rewired one of my MC5000 cables with the conductors as a feed, and shield as return, and I have to say it sounds pretty good. Well worth trying to see if it suits your system and ears IMHO.
You will increase the capacitance that way I believe and the rule for interconnects 'usually' is to reduce this I remember...
According to one review I have read, the Atratus III is constructed in a similar way.
It does not do that any harm?
wee tee cee
28-11-2014, 17:24
Brian and Gary popped round today, a bag of cable goodies were digested!!!! Brian's latest configuration was noticeably better-lo and behold Im happy to put my hand in my pocket to move the game on.
We plumbed cables in at multiples of the price....no contest-I felt a bit embarrassed tbh.
You preferred the MC5000 in the latest config?
brian2957
28-11-2014, 18:18
Yup , and by quite a margin Kevin . Looks like we're on the right track mate. :)
Yup, what Tony said.
Bit if a discovery Kev....good innit? :)
I quite like it. It works in my system, but I am not sure it will suit everybody.
I have asked him to try a "blind test" if possible.
The results from that could be really interesting.
I will try this myself on Monday, as Anthony’s coming to visit (and bringing his soldering iron with him), so I’ll let you know what I think. Bear in mind, though, that I can hear nothing whatsoever wrong with the MC5000s wired as they are, so I may disagree with your findings, just as I did with the ‘wonder flex’ you sent me recently ;)
Marco.
Yup , and by quite a margin Kevin . Looks like we're on the right track mate. :)
I’ll let you know if I agree! ;)
Marco.
brian2957
28-11-2014, 19:37
Horses for courses Marco , but worth a try innit :D
Defo, although I’m fast reaching the point (if indeed I’m not there already) of putting my choice of cables down as a ‘done deal’ :exactly:
Marco.
brian2957
28-11-2014, 19:54
Yes , TBH with you if you settle for the Klotz MC5000 / MS Audio cables in their present form I believe that you would be making a very good choice . I just like mucking around with cables in my spare time :) I will be keeping a set of the above for the times I want a change as they're excellent interconnects . I must say that it's early days for this new configuration .
As it has been said before, different systems and different listeners all like something different.
It won't cost much to try it, and if you don't like it, it's quick to revert back, even if it means a slightly shorter cable. :eek:
cyclopse
28-11-2014, 20:02
I thought all combinations had been tested and shield not connected came out top.
I hadn't tried all of the combinations.
I only tried the shield floating, and the shield connected at one end. I stopped with the shield connected at one end.
Curiosity recently got the better of me, so I rewired one cable, and I quite like the results in my system.
brian2957
28-11-2014, 20:25
I have to admit that I didn't try all the configurations either . Connecting the two inner cables to feed and earth and leaving the shield floating seemed to me to be the logical way to build these cables . It sounded very good so I left it at that . Later on I tried connecting the shield at the source end and didn't like it so I reverted back to the original configuration .
It was only when Kevin suggested trying the cable this way that I tried it and liked what I heard.
Please bear in mind that , according to the feedback I've received , these interconnects are excellent VFM in their original form .
So, just to clarify, *precisely* which configuration of the MC5000 are you now saying that you think is the best? :)
Marco.
Both conductors connected as the "feed", shield used as the "return".
brian2957
28-11-2014, 20:42
Marco , I built a set of these interconnects using the two inner cores as the feed and the shield as the return the other day . Early impressions are that they sound better than the original version . As I said it is early days as the cables need some more use in my system , and hopefully in another system , before I am willing to make a final judgement .
Churz. I shall instruct my solderer accordingly :D
Marco.
more better cables Brian? you'll be getting head hunted shortly:eyebrows: Need to have a listen myself sometime
brian2957
28-11-2014, 20:56
All in my system and IMO Grant . Like all cables they won't work well in all systems mate. :lol:
Just like not everyone can get away with wearing crotchless tights, eh Granty? :D
Marco.
Just like not everyone can get away with wearing crotchless tights, eh Granty? :D
Marco.
:lolsign: :booty:
walpurgis
28-11-2014, 23:36
Just like not everyone can get away with wearing crotchless tights, eh Granty? :D
Marco.
I didn't get away with wearing a pair over my head. They recognised my face through the hole while I was doing the robbery. :lol:
You will increase the capacitance that way I believe and the rule for interconnects 'usually' is to reduce this I remember...
Dave,
I have also read that leaving the shield disconnected lets it act as an antenna and similar to a secondary transformer coil, generating noise.
It's also said that using the shield as a return is not a good idea.
I'll let me ears decide, but where I live I don't even think I need shielded interconnects, so the next thing to do is to get a twisted pair cable (or make one myself) and see if this is better.
Ali Tait
29-11-2014, 11:42
Could try one core as signal, and the other plus the shield as return. Don't think that's been tried yet.
Or you could try a conductor as the feed, the shield as a return, and the other conductor as a drain wire.
There are many different combinations...
The additional capacitance of using both conductors as a feed, and shield as return is really quite small on a 60cm cable. It's so small that it really does not bother me.
I have just popped a set of KLE Silver Harmony plugs on the end of some MC5000.
As good as the MS Audio plugs are, I certainly think the Silver Harmony are better quality. You have to ignore the price of them though, as I can get 4 or 5 sets of MS Audio for the price of a set of the Silver Harmony.
The cable sounds very good in my system with these plugs on. I'm yet to do a comparison, but I don't think that the difference will be huge.
Could try one core as signal, and the other plus the shield as return. Don't think that's been tried yet.
I think you need to get out a bit more chief as do others :lol:
See you at Bristol hopefully?
Ali Tait
29-11-2014, 19:41
Plenty time on my hands, lost my job last week.
Aye, will be there all being well.
Plenty time on my hands, lost my job last week.
Sorry to hear that, mate. Hope you get something else soon! A man of your talents shouldn’t have any problems :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-11-2014, 20:12
Cheers mate, hopefully have something soon...
THAT job was taken away by someone else...it'll be you that gets the next one.
Ali Tait
29-11-2014, 20:56
Cheers mate, had a phone call yesterday, hopefully they will want an interview next week.
brian2957
29-11-2014, 20:58
Good luck with that buddy :)
Ali Tait
29-11-2014, 21:07
Ta!
Marco,
Did you get a chance to try the cables wired as suggested?
Yes, I did, and I’m sorry dudes, but me no likey…
Don’t get me wrong, the sound wasn’t disastrous, but it introduced a ‘bloom’ in the midrange, making voices sound veiled and bass a little bloated, as indeed (as I found after experimenting), does leaving the shield ‘floating’ (although that was better than the configuration Brian and you had recommended), compared with my favourite method of all now: connecting the shield at one end (the ‘source') and using the cables in a directional fashion that way.
Apparently, using both conductors connected as the ‘feed', and the shield as the ‘return’, doubles the capacitance, and if so, I could clearly hear the effect, which was almost identical to what I remember earlier in this thread when using overall higher capacitance cables, such as the Gothams.
Connecting the shield at one end only, and using that end as the ‘source', in my system, produced a more detailed and open sound, making vocals more expressive and also giving them greater presence, including removing that veiling/‘bloom’ I mentioned earlier, together with the bloating in the bass, producing overall a tighter, cleaner, and for me, ultimately more faithful and musical rendition of the recordings I played.
As such, from now on, that’s how I’ll be using my MC5000s :)
Marco.
Yes, it increases the capacitance. But we are not talking about much, unless you have really long leads.
It's a low capacitance cable at 55pF/m.
To be honest, after my initial reaction to the change I had planned to compare to my usual configuration of screen connected at one end. I have it fitted some KLEI Silver Harmony plugs to the cable to see if this offers an improvement over the MS Audio.
At the end of the day, it's what ever works for you in your system.
They are still a bargain though.
Agreed on all accounts, mate :)
I can clearly hear the effect of wiring the cables in different configurations, some of which will work better in certain systems than others. Therefore, at the end of the day, as ever, it’s about synergy. Clearly, as you say though, the MC5000s are an unbelievable bargain.
In my system, I’ve used interconnect cables costing £800 a metre, and those (and many others of their ilk) are comprehensively trounced by the Klotz/MS audio combo, so much so that I’d put the MC5000s up against any cables, at any price, confident that in most systems they would produce a very good account of themselves.
I may (if I can be arsed, or if you want to send me some to listen), try them fitted with silver KLE Harmony plugs, as *on paper* they should provide some subtle sonic advantages. After that, however, ‘I’m done’! :exactly:
Marco.
I've already tried this cable in all the wiring configurations suggested and with the KLE plugs (as most of the posters on this thread know - I wrote it all up on another thread). Ultimately I thought the difference between wiring configs was swings and roundabouts with elements better in each case.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 11:04
Yes, I did, and I’m sorry dudes, but me no likey…
Don’t get me wrong, the sound wasn’t disastrous, but it introduced a ‘bloom’ in the midrange, making voices sound veiled and bass a little bloated, as indeed (as I found after experimenting), does leaving the shield ‘floating’ (although that was better than the configuration Brian and you had recommended), compared with my favourite method of all now: connecting the shield at one end (the ‘source') and using the cables in a directional fashion that way.
Apparently, using both conductors connected as the ‘feed', and the shield as the ‘return’, doubles the capacitance, and if so, I could clearly hear the effect, which was almost identical to what I remember earlier in this thread when using overall higher capacitance cables, such as the Gothams.
Connecting the shield at one end only, and using that end as the ‘source', in my system, produced a more detailed and open sound, making vocals more expressive and also giving them greater presence, including removing that veiling/‘bloom’ I mentioned earlier, together with the bloating in the bass, producing overall a tighter, cleaner, and for me, ultimately more faithful and musical rendition of the recordings I played.
As such, from now on, that’s how I’ll be using my MC5000s :)
Marco.
This is interesting Marco . Just to be clear are you using the single ( red ) inner core as the feed and the other inner core ( blue) as return with the shield also connected to return at the source end . I did try it this way and wasn't keen on it . I will however revisit this combo based on your experience .
Horses for courses here methinks .
Agreed on all accounts, mate :)
I can clearly hear the effect of wiring the cables in different configurations, some of which will work better in certain systems than others. Therefore, at the end of the day, as ever, it’s about synergy. Clearly, as you say though, the MC5000s are an unbelievable bargain.
In my system, I’ve used interconnect cables costing £800 a metre, and those (and many others of their ilk) are comprehensively trounced by the Klotz/MS audio combo, so much so that I’d put the MC5000s up against any cables, at any price, confident that in most systems they would produce a very good account of themselves.
I may (if I can be arsed, or if you want to send me some to listen), try them fitted with silver KLE Harmony plugs, as *on paper* they should provide some subtle sonic advantages. After that, however, ‘I’m done’! :exactly:
Marco.
I'll rewire my KLE set, and I'll let you know. The only comment I have is with the Silver Harmony plugs, the VFM/SPPV of the cables is not as good. If I send them over, I may include another pair for you to listen to.
Wakefield Turntables
03-12-2014, 11:47
Ok I'm only 122 pages late, has anyone got a set or two of ICs I can borrow to try them out? Would make interesting comparison against yannis and mg cables.
This is interesting Marco . Just to be clear are you using the single ( red ) inner core as the feed and the other inner core ( blue) as return with the shield also connected to return at the source end.
Hi Brian,
Yup, mate, red signal/feed, blue signal return, and screen terminated at source end only :)
Marco.
I'll rewire my KLE set, and I'll let you know. The only comment I have is with the Silver Harmony plugs, the VFM/SPPV of the cables is not as good. If I send them over, I may include another pair for you to listen to.
Nice one, Kevin, and I’d appreciate that. If you do, make sure that the cables are wired as I’ve just described, so that the only variable on the cables is the plugs themselves :)
VFM is important, but as I’ve used many MUCH more expensive cables in the past, which make the cost of the MC5000, fitted with any plugs, pocket money in comparison...
Marco.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 12:02
I think now things have settled down a bit and I've decided that the MC5000 cable is my choice for interconnects I may explore all the configurations for wiring it up once more :)
So, just to clarify, one minute (quite a bit longer than a minute) Marco and Brian are extolling the virtues of using this cable with the shield disconnected - it's the best combination full stop. Now there is a U turn and the best combination is with the shield connected at one end! What about the people who have bought this cable from Brian thinking they have the best wiring configuraton and may well now think that they don't?
brian2957
03-12-2014, 12:28
Mark , when I first build this cable I connected it up in what seemed to be the logical ( to me ) way. Red to feed blue to return and shield disconnected . IMO it sounded excellent at that and so that's the way I continued to use it . As far as I know Marco hadn't tried it any other way either . A bit later I tried it with the shield connected at the source end ( like Marco ) and it didn't seem to work as well as the original in my system . At the time I was trying many different cables in order to find the one which I preferred with the MS Audio plugs . I did not ( and still haven't ) explore all the wiring configurations of the MC5000/ MS Audio interconnects . I hope to remedy this over the next few months . All the feedback I've received suggests that anyone who has bought these interconnects from me has been very happy with them and I believe ( as do the users ) that I was making the best SPPV interconnects I could at the time . If anyone who has bought these cables from me wishes to try it in any other wiring configuration I will be happy to accommodate them for a small fee . Please note however that this shortens the cable by around 30mm .
EDIT : Please note that I did try the configuration which Marco prefers and wasn't happy with it in my system . My system has now changed ( amp and speakers ) and different interconnects may have a better synergy than my previous combination . As I've previously stated , I can't guarantee synergy between these interconnects ( in any wiring configuration ) and any system .
The Black Adder
03-12-2014, 13:14
I did some experiments years ago with some Van Damme cable and found that with the shield detatched from the source end was indeed better sounding. It was much more open and less restrained.
Obviously, different cables can act different with this method.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 13:24
Can't guarantee that any cable configuration will work better in any system . I'm lucky that I have the equipment here try different cables in different wiring configurations . Unfortunately work tends to interfere with my cable making 'escapades ' and time is very often limited. The original Klotz MC5000 / MS Audio combination seems to work well in a variety of systems . I've only had one set returned where the person was comparing them to a set of £500 interconnects and the MC5000s weren't quote : ' quite as good ' :)
I'm genuinely surprised you thought that leaving the shield floating was the most logical method of connection. To be blunt, and in my opinion, I think you should have tried all the wiring options before you started selling these interconnects.
Why, what is the issue with floating a shield?
From what I can make out, several manufacturers do it. The best known being NVA.
At the danger of adding some logical thought, knowledge and some experience here, can I offer a few words of advice/encouragement/take it as you see fit?
You cannot simply generalise how any cable will sound in any system (lets call that "golden rule #1) let alone how it might sound with a twin core overall shield geometry with floated shield one end, let alone which end to connect. I am only adding a little leveller here as I wouldn't want people to be misled in any way, shape or form, however well meant in the first place.
Lets look at the whys/wherefores:
Why does floating a shield matter? Is it "better" than single core coax?
Answer: It depends on much more than any generalisation. The answer can be both "yes" and "no". It's entirely system dependant.
When you connect two items of kit, you're actually connecting more than that. You're also connecting (and helping to create) a chassis ground voltage potential between kit connected and that drives a small current (tiny in fact) separate to the audio signal. That tiny current carries what, for simplicity's sake, we'll call "noise" made up of mains ground (loop) noise, leagake earth currents and the like PLUS any RFI/EMI induced from elsewhere into the system which (likely) couples to the ground return in coax where the shield shares duties with ground return. The result can be inductive coupling to the signal (positive core) detrimental to the S/N ratio potential of the system (ie noise floor is raised slightly).
All of this pre-supposes quite a lot. Some systems will carry negligible extraneous noise in the ground return or shield if the kit is properly engineered with floating signal earth circuits which have raised impedance to ground (via a simple resistor/capacitor connecting circuit) so for all intents and purposes, a decent coax will be EVERY bit as "good" and effective as a twin core with the added advantage (in the case of phono applications) of lower capacitance.
Even if a system isn't made up of particularly well matched components in this respect, using twin core interconnects will likely not result in much if any noise lowering advantage at all since the ground loop within the connected kit will already have that "noise" circulating in some cases within the ground part of the signal (because it has entered the signal path via alternative connections), so you'd need to re-wire most of the system with twin core and ensure that you de-couple the chassis earths from the signal earths...make sense so far?
Ok...now lets assume that one person experiences (subjectively or otherwise) more detail if connecting a twin core and shield interconnect with the earth floated at source. Does this mean it will "work" that way round in another system? No, of course not. the shield ideally should be connected at the point of lowest ground impedance, and since none of us really know which connected end has the lowest ground impedance, the only way of finding out if there's any difference at all is by trying one way round, then the other. Sometimes you may notice small improvements one way sometimes the other. How do you know which is which? The interconnect must be marked or some other convention (such as the direction of printed letters on the cable) must be used and should "point" towards the floated end normally. Where no difference is heard, then a good quality coax will be every bit as good and in some ways, better.
It really does depend ENTIRELY on the system that the cable is connected within, and on what OTHER cables are used in that system, so hopefully, folk will now have something a little more objective to consider. ie you cannot and should not make generalisations or recommendations without knowing the system and even then it's often a case of experimentation.
Hopefully this will be of some assistance. Happy to provide unbiased (absolutely no obligation for anything other than giving my own time up) specific system advice to anyone wanting to PM me or use the web contact details.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 14:28
I'm not an audio engineer or a cable engineer Mark , I'm a hobbyist who tries to save some money by making his own cables . I found some decent plugs and decided to make some interconnects with them . I thought they were pretty good and made some up for my friends . It was suggested that I offer them for sale on AOS at a good price , which I did. If I was selling these on a commercial basis maybe I should have exhausted all avenues as far as build goes . Maybe I should have sold them at a much higher price bearing in mind R&D costs .
These interconnects are what they are . Everyone I have sold them to has been more than happy with them ( and the price ) . If I was selling something at rip-off prices then I believe that you would have a valid point . I'll leave the rip-off prices to the so called cable and audio manufacturers . Bit of naivete on my part perhaps, but I'm not apologising for that , and I'm not going to try and justify myself or my actions to anyone for trying to give something back to the members of this forum .
brian2957
03-12-2014, 14:31
At the danger of adding some logical thought, knowledge and some experience here, can I offer a few words of advice/encouragement/take it as you see fit?
You cannot simply generalise how any cable will sound in any system (lets call that "golden rule #1) let alone how it might sound with a twin core overall shield geometry with floated shield one end, let alone which end to connect. I am only adding a little leveller here as I wouldn't want people to be misled in any way, shape or form, however well meant in the first place.
Lets look at the whys/wherefores:
Why does floating a shield matter? Is it "better" than single core coax?
Answer: It depends on much more than any generalisation. The answer can be both "yes" and "no". It's entirely system dependant.
When you connect two items of kit, you're actually connecting more than that. You're also connecting (and helping to create) a chassis ground voltage potential between kit connected and that drives a small current (tiny in fact) separate to the audio signal. That tiny current carries what, for simplicity's sake, we'll call "noise" made up of mains ground (loop) noise, leagake earth currents and the like PLUS any RFI/EMI induced from elsewhere into the system which (likely) couples to the ground return in coax where the shield shares duties with ground return. The result can be inductive coupling to the signal (positive core) detrimental to the S/N ratio potential of the system (ie noise floor is raised slightly).
All of this pre-supposes quite a lot. Some systems will carry negligible extraneous noise in the ground return or shield if the kit is properly engineered with floating signal earth circuits which have raised impedance to ground (via a simple resistor/capacitor connecting circuit) so for all intents and purposes, a decent coax will be EVERY bit as "good" and effective as a twin core with the added advantage (in the case of phono applications) of lower capacitance.
Even if a system isn't made up of particularly well matched components in this respect, using twin core interconnects will likely not result in much if any noise lowering advantage at all since the ground loop within the connected kit will already have that "noise" circulating in some cases within the ground part of the signal (because it has entered the signal path via alternative connections), so you'd need to re-wire most of the system with twin core and ensure that you de-couple the chassis earths from the signal earths...make sense so far?
Ok...now lets assume that one person experiences (subjectively or otherwise) more detail if connecting a twin core and shield interconnect with the earth floated at source. Does this mean it will "work" that way round in another system? No, of course not. the shield ideally should be connected at the point of lowest ground impedance, and since none of us really know which connected end has the lowest ground impedance, the only way of finding out if there's any difference at all is by trying one way round, then the other. Sometimes you may notice small improvements one way sometimes the other. How do you know which is which? The interconnect must be marked or some other convention (such as the direction of printed letters on the cable) must be used and should "point" towards the floated end normally. Where no difference is heard, then a good quality coax will be every bit as good and in some ways, better.
It really does depend ENTIRELY on the system that the cable is connected within, and on what OTHER cables are used in that system, so hopefully, folk will now have something a little more objective to consider. ie you cannot and should not make generalisations or recommendations without knowing the system and even then it's often a case of experimentation.
Hopefully this will be of some assistance. Happy to provide unbiased (absolutely no obligation for anything other than giving my own time up) specific system advice to anyone wanting to PM me or use the web contact details.
Thanks for that Paul .:)
I'm not an audio engineer or a cable engineer Mark , I'm a hobbyist who tries to save some money by making his own cables . I found some decent plugs and decided to make some interconnects with them . I thought they were pretty good and made some up for my friends . It was suggested that I offer them for sale on AOS at a good price , which I did. If I was selling these on a commercial basis maybe I should have exhausted all avenues as far as build goes . Maybe I should have sold them at a much higher price bearing in mind R&D costs .
These interconnects are what they are . Everyone I have sold them to has been more than happy with them ( and the price ) . If I was selling something at rip-off prices then I believe that you would have a valid point . I'll leave the rip-off prices to the so called cable and audio manufacturers . Bit of naivete on my part , but I'm not apologising for that . :)
I think we have to be careful with choice of words here Brian. I am a so called "cable manufacturer" (or more accurately "designer who assembles selected quality components") and I am not ripping anyone off. I think you'd be the first to agree that it's barely possible in some cases to buy the components I use to make my cable range up at RRP yourselves for what I offer them at, let alone the time cost to me, so a little perspective here would be good as there are a few decent and honest paid up trade sellers of cables on AoS who I do feel are unjustly having their interests damaged by the assumptions all too freely floated about on some of these posts. No harm Brian, just saying ;).
So, just to clarify, one minute (quite a bit longer than a minute) Marco and Brian are extolling the virtues of using this cable with the shield disconnected - it's the best combination full stop.
Mark, it should be noted that, from the beginning, I’ve been using the MC5000s wired up ‘as Brian deemed best’. I bought the wire and plugs, and he soldered everything up. Until only recently (as I don’t deal with these things), I had no idea *how* he’d wired them, simply that they worked superbly well in my system - and that was good enough for me! :)
However, after speaking with Anthony TD (the chap who made my valve amp), where he recommended that the shield be connected at the source end, rather than simply left ‘floating’ at both ends, that’s what I did (yesterday), and thus noticed the improvement I reported earlier. I am now entirely satisfied that, in the context of my system, the wiring configuration as detailed above, sounds best.
I trust that clears things up from my position :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 14:45
I think we have to be careful with choice of words here Brian. I am a so called "cable manufacturer" (or more accurately "designer who assembles selected quality components") and I am not ripping anyone off. I think you'd be the first to agree that it's barely possible in some cases to buy the components I use to make my cable range up at RRP yourselves for what I offer them at, let alone the time cost to me, so a little perspective here would be good as there are a few decent and honest paid up trade sellers of cables on AoS who I do feel are unjustly having their interests damaged by the assumptions all too freely floated about on some of these posts. No harm Brian, just saying ;).
Apologies for generalising here Paul . You were the last person I had in mind when I posted that reply and I agree that there are many good , honest traders here and elsewhere . I've dealt with you quite a few times regarding crossover refurbs and interconnects . Your prices IMO have always been fair and I've always been happy with your prices and your service , which is second to none .
I have sent you a PM.
I'm genuinely surprised you thought that leaving the shield floating was the most logical method of connection. To be blunt, and in my opinion, I think you should have tried all the wiring options before you started selling these interconnects.
He’s not really selling them. Folk who can’t solder (like me), or can’t be arsed trying, buy the bits (cable and plugs) in advance, and Brian assembles everything and posts them onto the AoS members concerned. He simply charges a small amount for his time.
This type of service is what the AoS community is all about, and indeed very much valued :exactly:
Marco.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 14:53
Thanks for clearing that up Marco :)
I'm not an audio engineer or a cable engineer Mark , I'm a hobbyist who tries to save some money by making his own cables . I found some decent plugs and decided to make some interconnects with them . I thought they were pretty good and made some up for my friends . It was suggested that I offer them for sale on AOS at a good price , which I did. If I was selling these on a commercial basis maybe I should have exhausted all avenues as far as build goes . Maybe I should have sold them at a much higher price bearing in mind R&D costs .
These interconnects are what they are . Everyone I have sold them to has been more than happy with them ( and the price ) . If I was selling something at rip-off prices then I believe that you would have a valid point . I'll leave the rip-off prices to the so called cable and audio manufacturers . Bit of naivete on my part perhaps, but I'm not apologising for that , and I'm not going to try and justify myself or my actions to anyone for trying to give something back to the members of this forum .
Brian, I accept that you are a hobbyist and enthusiast (and I'm certainly not looking for an apology), but then so are the majority of small manufacturers. I don't understand when you write that you aren't selling them on a commercial basis - as far as I can see that is precisely what you are doing - you aren't selling them at cost after all. You are making a profit on these cables (unless you are paying way over what I paid for the same cable and plugs) - if you make a profit it is a commercial enterprise. Of course I think you should expect payment for your work making these cables - that's how a commercial business works. If you are making no profit (and that includes charging for your time) that's another matter - but you are and as such I feel that some R&D should have taken place first even if you concluded that the floating shield option was the right one - at least that would be an informed decision.
He’s not really selling them. Folk who can’t solder (like me), or can’t be arsed trying, buy the bits (cable and plugs) in advance, and Brian assembles everything and posts them onto the AoS members concerned. He simply charges a small amount for his time.
This type of service is what the AoS community is all about, and indeed very much valued :exactly:
Marco.
How is he not selling them? The price that Brian charges is not the cost of the parts plus postage - there is a charge for his labour. I don't have any issue with Brian charging for his labour but that does mean he is making a profit and therefore selling them. Charging for ones time is how most people make a living - if you get a decorator in you don't say they aren't selling their services just because they charge for their time/labour!
Mark, it should be noted that, from the beginning, I’ve been using the MC5000s wired up ‘as Brian deemed best’.
That suggests that an informed decision was made by Brian to conclude that the floating shield was the 'best' option but, as he freely admits, that was just the first wiring configuration that occurred to him.
brian2957
03-12-2014, 15:23
Brian, I accept that you are a hobbyist and enthusiast (and I'm certainly not looking for an apology), but then so are the majority of small manufacturers. I don't understand when you write that you aren't selling them on a commercial basis - as far as I can see that is precisely what you are doing - you aren't selling them at cost after all. You are making a profit on these cables (unless you are paying way over what I paid for the same cable and plugs) - if you make a profit it is a commercial enterprise. Of course I think you should expect payment for your work making these cables - that's how a commercial business works. If you are making no profit (and that includes charging for your time) that's another matter - but you are and as such I feel that some R&D should have taken place first even if you concluded that the floating shield option was the right one - at least that would be an informed decision.
OK all points taken Mark . As I live I learn . I have made my offer to the people who have bought these cables from me . I can't do any more than that . :)
I really don't like where this thread is going so this is the end of the line for me . Ya'll fill yer boots .
The offer of these cables is henceforth withdrawn . It really ain't worth the hassle :rolleyes:
OK all points taken Mark . As I live I learn . I have made my offer to the people who have bought these cables from me . I can't do any more than that . :)
I really don't like where this thread is going so this is the end of the line for me . Ya'll fill yer boots .
The offer of these cables is henceforth withdrawn . It really ain't worth the hassle :rolleyes:
Mr Confrontation strikes again (YNWAN) where it is clearly not welcomed or needed!
The Black Adder
03-12-2014, 15:57
OK all points taken Mark . As I live I learn . I have made my offer to the people who have bought these cables from me . I can't do any more than that . :)
I really don't like where this thread is going so this is the end of the line for me . Ya'll fill yer boots .
The offer of these cables is henceforth withdrawn . It really ain't worth the hassle :rolleyes:
My last comment seemed to get 'steam roller-ed' so I deleted it.
But this now needs to be said.
Brian, don't stop offering your services to people on AOS (or elsewhere) because of what Mark has said.
I'm not sure if Mark has had a bad day or something, his post came across quite acid to which I would ask him to just let it be or revise it.
There is more than enough room in this world for another cable. I think they are great and good value for money. For me, they are not fitting as well in my system than my Mark Grant types but saying that, they are great and as I said, great VFM.
OK all points taken Mark . As I live I learn . I have made my offer to the people who have bought these cables from me . I can't do any more than that . :)
I really don't like where this thread is going so this is the end of the line for me . Ya'll fill yer boots .
The offer of these cables is henceforth withdrawn . It really ain't worth the hassle :rolleyes:
Brian, I would take some time to think about that, if I were you. Give me a bell later, mate :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-12-2014, 16:04
Agreed. It's not as if Brian is making a living from this. A bit rich to say you are not looking for an apology Mark, when frankly that's what you owe Brian.
How is he not selling them? The price that Brian charges is not the cost of the parts plus postage - there is a charge for his labour. I don't have any issue with Brian charging for his labour but that does mean he is making a profit and therefore selling them. Charging for ones time is how most people make a living - if you get a decorator in you don't say they aren't selling their services just because they charge for their time/labour!
That suggests that an informed decision was made by Brian to conclude that the floating shield was the 'best' option but, as he freely admits, that was just the first wiring configuration that occurred to him.
Mark, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here, mate - to the extent that you’ve pissed off Brian, which was entirely unnecessary :doh: :rolleyes:
Honestly, you can be a little ‘heavy handed’ sometimes, so rein that in a little, please. Brian wired the cables the way he thought sounded best within the spare time he had available. He’s not a professional trader; he's got a full-time job elsewhere, so most likely doesn’t have time to ‘road-test' every wiring permutation under the sun before proclaiming to the AoS membership which one is ‘best’!
When I said that Brian wasn’t ‘selling' the Klotz cables, I meant as a fully-fledged, full-time business. Yes he makes a small ‘profit’ from them, purely for his labour, but that’s it. He’s not making a living from it.
The cables he’s suppling are not a commercial product, subject to the usual mark-ups necessary, in order to sustain a professional business. He’s providing this service as favour for people because he enjoys doing it (and the pleasure it gives afterwards to those who use the cables).
I consider what Brian is doing as valuable service to the AoS community and sincerely hope that he continues offering it to those who can potentially benefit. Now that’s an end to the matter. The subject is not open for any further debate, other than those who wish to discuss the efficacy or otherwise of the cables in question.
Any input other than that (from anyone) will be removed without further warning.
Marco.
Brian, I would take some time to think about that, if I were you. Give me a bell later, mate :)
Marco.
+1
No-one here has a real issue with what you're doing Brian (although charging time costs is essentially what all direct sellers do, including direct selling trade members on AoS. That or at least they apply some sort of model for modest profitability based on turnover and costs). Don't stop what you're doing due to a few differences of opinion on a forum thread. If you're happy doing it and people are happy with what you do, why stop? Keep on making them Brian! If you want a chat and moral support, give me a bell too.
I'm unsure what to think about a hint of double standards though (this NOT aimed at you at all Brian) as some comments seem to suggest that just because anything like a "real" income isn't received, that a hobbyist charging isn't somehow trade. A majority of my turnover is in the loudspeaker field. I offer very high quality cables at relatively (very) modest costs and cable turnover is also modest (you certainly couldn't feed the family on it, lets put it that way), so how this differs at all, I'm a little bemused by :scratch:. This is not any sort of complaint or sour grapes (there are none), just a valid observation.
+1
No-one here has a real issue with what you're doing Brian (although charging time costs is essentially what all direct sellers do, including direct selling trade members on AoS. That or at least they apply some sort of model for modest profitability based on turnover and costs). Don't stop what you're doing due to a few differences of opinion on a forum thread. If you're happy doing it and people are happy with what you do, why stop? Keep on making them Brian! If you want a chat and moral support, give me a bell too.
That’s appreciated, Paul - shows you’re one of the good guys :)
I'm unsure what to think about a hint of double standards though (this NOT aimed at you at all Brian) as some comments seem to suggest that just because anything like a "real" income isn't received, that a hobbyist charging isn't somehow trade. A majority of my turnover is in the loudspeaker field. I offer very high quality cables at relatively (very) modest costs and cable turnover is also modest (you certainly couldn't feed the family on it, lets put it that way), so how this differs at all, I'm a little bemused by. This is not any sort of complaint or sour grapes (there are none), just a valid observation.
Indeed, and I value your opinion. However, that topic (what is ‘right’ or not, in this respect) could be argued to death without anyone reaching agreement. Therefore, I’ve taken the decision to allow Brian to continue what he’s doing (if indeed he wishes to himself), on the basis of him providing a service to the AoS community.
In that respect, if it goes beyond the level of him 'soldering a few cables for some AoS members', into something more serious (and trust me, that situation is being monitored), then at that point, Brian would require a trade membership account, and he would pay accordingly for the privilege.
Clearly, he’s not at that level yet, and may never be. Time will tell.
Now, as I said in my last post, that really is an end to the matter. Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I did some back to back listening tonight.
The difference between the cables being how it was wired up, and the plugs.
With my old config (the same as Marco has now) I felt that the treble was better than when the screen is being used as the return. There really isn't much in it though. I have not tried the floating screen again, as I preferred the screen grounded at one end.
I have to say I much prefer working with the KLE Harmony plugs. They are easier to solder, as they have been well thought out.
I did some back to back listening tonight.
The difference between the cables being how it was wired up, and the plugs.
With my old config (the same as Marco has now) I felt that the treble was better than when the screen is being used as the return. There really isn't much in it though. I have not tried the floating screen again, as I preferred the screen grounded at one end.
I have to say I much prefer working with the KLE Harmony plugs. They are easier to solder, as they have been well thought out.
Try gently squeezing the horseshoe shaped pins together then solder onto them (tip from MG and it works a treat)
Finally made up the MS audio plugs and MC5000 cable I just used the two centre and left the shield floating.
The bass and treble have a have a lot more detail and in general just a fuller sound .
And the proof in the daughter just said what have you changed the system sounds way better !!!!
Finally made up the MS audio plugs and MC5000 cable I just used the two centre and left the shield floating.
The bass and treble have a have a lot more detail and in general just a fuller sound .
And the proof in the daughter just said what have you changed the system sounds way better !!!!
You're probably already aware but leaving the whole shield floating means you have no shield in effect. It begs the question "why bother" using shielded cable if the shield isn't going to be put to the use it was design for? It has to be connected at one end or the other to work as a shield and connecting it should allow greater potential for more detail depending upon the electrical environment in which it is used.
But it does act like a Faraday cage to an extent even with the ends open so there is some benefit. A Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded for it to work.
walpurgis
05-12-2014, 11:00
I have made cables with an external screen (not used as a signal conductor) to which I soldered a fly lead to attach to equipment chassis. Whether that should be done for both ends, I assume would depend on whether each piece of equipment had common earthing. At least the option for earthing both screen ends could be handy and not implemented obviously if a hum loop occurs. It certainly seems to keep hum down on small signal leads from turntables.
I have made cables with an external screen (not used as a signal conductor) to which I soldered a fly lead to attach to equipment chassis. Whether that should be done for both ends, I assume would depend on whether each piece of equipment had common earthing. At least the option for earthing both screen ends could be handy and not implemented obviously if a hum loop occurs. It certainly seems to keep hum down on small signal leads from turntables.
It only needs to be done at one end Geoff. The idea is that unwanted induced noise is shunted to ground and doesn't form part of the signal path. However (there's always one!) the trend for shield to be disconnected one end may reduce inductive coupling but may also raise the risk of RFI interference as the floated shield can act as an antenna. if the circuits being connected have adequate protection from RFI it's rarely an issue. With the advent of more and more digital sources etc, the risks increase so one obvious solution is to connect the floated end to the chassis ground via a small value capacitor to filter out any RFI that might otherwise be an issue.
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