But without new sales there are no secondhand products!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Barbarian
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But without new sales there are no secondhand products!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Barbarian
Yeah, you SAY that.........Quote:
Originally Posted by User211
Long before "That's Life" appeared on TV with their fearless expose of rip offs, it was and always has been rife. I bet a cave man or two did a dodgy deal with wonky axe handles when it suited him :eyebrows: What's lacking these days is the regulation and legal powers to stamp it out and some porridge might deter some rogues from chancing their luck. Anyway, everyone has a choice and SHOULD have a brain between the ears to use logic and common sense to avoid the rip off merchants.
I don't think the hi-fi industry is any more guilty of ripping people off than any other industry to be honest. I have had great service from the dealers I have used and begrudge not one penny I spent with them. I have bought hi-fi components in the past that had too much fresh air inside the case, but still sounded great. So what did I buy in that instance, a quality of sound I enjoyed or a total component count?
When the smarmy BMW salesman asked me if I would like carpets and a radio for the car I had just ordered and pay extra for the privilege, then I did feel very much ripped off.
As our "awkward" colleague has pointed out above, if nobody buys new where will the secondhand gear come from?
Even better, recognize this quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldpinkman
"In my naievity I had assumed a level of rationality when I first joined AOS. The process of adjusting to the levels of nonsense some people allowed the vote are capable of has been rapid and bewildering."
left or right handed, still a tosser :lol:
Well I did two bake offs and a lot of people round with the last pair. So yeah, I do:)Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Some like them, some don't. Just like anything else.
Guy. Life is dynamic not an eternal perpetual state. It is the failure to recognise that and adapt which traps many and dooms them to introspective self-pity. The scales have fallen from my eyes more than once since dipping a toe into the world of hifi forums. (just can't get to grips with fora. Sounds like herbology!). And when you know and understand something you know and understand the false claims of others who don't. I don't fear the dark - the lights won't go out on me ;)
There are already enough products out there to last forever. Especially if you think that nothing has improved in the last 30 years. I've heard older amps, cd players, turntables, cartridges and speakers all outperforming their contempery counterparts, so I'm inclined to think that position caries some weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
You are assuming of course that spare parts are always going to be available Martin, which nobody can guarantee. I think you will already find that a vast number of semiconductors have vanished off supplier's catalogues and custom made parts are already a nightmare to source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I think what is driving this latest upsurge in buying older secondhand components is the lack of disposable income people are suffering from and when we have plenty of spare cash then we are more inclined to buy new. "No more boom and bust" said one famous politician but I think it's going to be a VERY long time before we see any signs of boom again
So you do what I do and just buy two of everything. It only has to last me out, not last forever :) In my current system only the amplifier was bought new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Effem
You may have a point about recession pushing people to look for bargains second hand though. Especially for something non-essential like hi-fi it is somewhere corners can be cut. The thing is, how many folk start out buying used because money is tight but will continue buying used even when their finances improve simply because they prefer it? And the box-swapper really has to buy used because if he bought new he would lose too much money when he sells on.
It's an age thing IMO. I teach business studies, so I usually end up chatting with dealers about their thoughts on the future of hifi retailing. Last year, one (successful, and highly entrepreneurial) owner asserted that 'all my customers are pensioners'. As a group, I guess retired folk have more time to consider their purchase and shop around to get a deal, as money may well be tight. They are also likely to be more sceptical of marketing claims, but, on the plus side, are more likely to be loyal to good service-providers. The two dealers I most often use have never ripped me off, or failed to go that extra mile to help, often at their expense. They don't push. They listen, I listen. I trust them. The bottom line is that I want them to continue to make a living, as they are good people, with an infectious enthusiasm and passion for this strange hobby. And, yes, I met a few 'rip-off' merchants over the years ... but they went out of business :)
Sorry but the old Barbarian would not be seen dead with a modern Hi-Fi product so makes no difference really.Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Yup, if you’re solely into using vintage gear (pre 1980s), it matters not a jot what’s happening today in the hi-fi industry.
Marco.
Well, yes it does. If there are less new sales, then secondhand prices will rise. And do you only buy 30 year old cables, plugs and everything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Nope, but Andre does :)
For me, in terms of secondhand prices, they are what they are. If I see something I like, and consider it worth the money, then I buy it. Simples. I don’t worry about prices rising (or not), due to less sales of new gear.
Marco.
Must be nice to be rich!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I'd suggest that would only be true for certain brands or specifically sort after items of a brand. All the other good stuff will remain under the radar, as it does today. Bit like the classic car market. And even there prices for the really sought -after cars at the top end can vary by tens of thousands just depending on trends and the economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Even if/when there were no big hi-fi manufacturers left you will still have DIY and the cottage industry. But they have no R&D, nothing will advance! Well nothing has advanced in audio except for the introduction of domestic digital playback and even with that most people still seem to prefer analogue.
Not the case. I just don’t worry about things that, in reality, I have very little control over :)Quote:
Originally Posted by awkwardbydesign
Marco.
Well, the fact is not very much has genuinely advanced, which is why others and I with high-quality, largely vintage-only systems, do what we do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
Marco.
The only thing in your system that is properly vintage are your speakers. Same with me, actually. I suppose CD players count as 'legacy' now, if not quite vintage yet. Your valve amps are modern designs and builds are they not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Lol - not true. Most of the valves I use, throughout my system, are NOS, from the 1950s, including the circuit for my preamp and power amp. Just because the boxes have been built in recent times, doesn’t make the equipment itself modern. The only thing modern about them is *some* of the internal components used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macca
I also have several genuine vintage cartridges - and even those I own that aren’t are based on 1950s/1960s technology, such as the SPU and Denon DL-103 respectively.
Even my Ortofon tonearm is based on a 1960s design. And of course the Techy itself was first introduced in 1972, and has changed little since then, albeit mine is now highly modified with the use of modern components, which is where the genuine advances in audio have occurred (ditto the crossovers on my Tannoys).
I also own a vintage tuner and cassette deck, from the 1970s and 1980s respectively.
In terms of my Sony CDP and DAC, both from the late 80s, whilst perhaps not being ‘vintage’ in the truest sense (although that is largely down to subjective interpretation), is hardly new, and certainly representative of very old digital technology.
Quite simply, I use this stuff because, to my ears, nothing modern that I’ve heard has sonically outperformed it, so I’m not on a ‘nostalgia trip’, nor am I some intransigent old fool. If someone introduced me to new gear which comprehensively trounced the old stuff I use, then I’d buy it and sell the old stuff instantly. It’s as simple as that.
I’m still waiting for that to happen, though! ;)
Marco.
Fair point about the NOS valves, I hadn't considered that. Amplifier circuits are basically all from the fifties and sixties, even class D is not new but from the early seventies.
There aren't any new materials in the Techy mods, there is nothing they could not have done in 1973 given the budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Not true in the case of the Paul Hynes PSU regulator modules, which are all his design, using the best of today’s components. Those couldn’t have been made in 1973, simply because the parts necessary for them to work weren’t around to produce them. They’re also fundamentally responsible for how my T/T sounds.
I don’t believe anyone was making ETP platters either in the 1970s.
In terms of amplifiers, my copper amp, for example, is based on the Williamson circuit (from the 1950s), with modifications by Anthony Matthews. It’s also chock-full of vintage 1940s and 1950s valves, and (some) vintage internal components, such as 1950s Mullard ‘mustard’ caps, and resistors, all of which are hard-wired (point-to-point) throughout the circuit, with zero use of PCBs.
In that respect, I simply don’t see how it can be considered as a modern amplifier, although it certainly sounds like one. The Croft is the same, built along the same principles by a different designer.
Marco.
I think i only have 3 new bought things in all my gear. the beresford async. the firebottle and my q's speakers. That was because i couldnt either get them second hand or the difference made is not worthwhile. There is quite a hit financially buying most things new. bought my car 2nd hand too. ex disability. 3 years old with 20k on clock. saved 12k on price and had it 6 years without trouble
Probably not in the context of the thread, but I would argue the Williamson defined what is a "modern" valve amplifier. Ultra linear, push pull pentode output stage, valve phase splitter, negative feedback. It inherits from previous designs like the Wireless World quality amplifier, but that was triode output, zero feedback. The Williamson can defiantly be seen as a point that the standard design changed. there is a clear before and after. Solid state A and A/B push pull amps have just carried on doing the same thing, but with different devices.Quote:
In that respect, I simply don’t see how it can be viewed as a modern amplifier, although it sounds like one.
Hi Nick,
I agree, especially in terms of what was defined by the Williamson circuit.
In terms of defining ‘modern’, well I guess it depends on which era you’re depicting. Del has an old cookery book, from the 1960s, the title of which is ‘Cooking in the modern age’ (that incidentally contains some superb recipes for ‘proper’ food), but ‘modern’ in today’s sense, it isn’t! ;)
Marco.
Btw, Nick, when were FETs invented?
Marco.
The first patent was filed in 1926 - before practical transistors were even developed in the late 40's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Hi Marco, I'd be very interested to hear what you did with your Tannoy crossovers and what changes that made to the sound. I have been wondering if it's a worthwhile exercise for a while...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Yep, worth considering that the original point contact transistor was patented in 1947, same year the Williamson circuit was published.
Another interesting fact, one of the original patents on the FET was by Oskar Heil, who also invented the air-motion transformer which ESS still sell.
http://www.essspeakersusa.com/264-600_lI.jpg
Hi Jules,Quote:
Originally Posted by julesd68
Hope you are well. Most definitely worth it! :)
There are all sorts of threads on the subject here, so maybe try a search and see what comes up. Otherwise, PM me and I’ll give you my number, and we can have a proper chat about it :cool:
Marco.
Indeed, that is interesting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by lurcher
Gone are the days when any REAL innovation occurs in audio, certainly of the type of magnitude of what happened in the 40s and 50s (and even before that).
Marco.
I've decided the UK audio industry is not rip-off at all. To be "rip-off", it has to operate a monopoly, or close to, and then overcharge. Apple comes to mind.
An industry like the audio industry in the UK is so fragmented and competitive that it is probably incapable of ripping anyone off. Some prices may be high due to needing a big gross margin to cover the operating costs of a low volume operation. The high volume manufacturers generally work on very thin margins. The TV business, for example, is ultra-competitive.
If you do get ripped off, it is probably your own fault. That said, I last paid about £200 for a very good pair of shoes (and that was the duty-free price), a brand I've been wearing for years and they last years. I could get a pair hand made to order for £500. Probably not any better, but the audiophile equivalent in that they have to be more expensive just to cover the costs.
For many reliable products there is no need to buy new and the manufacturers consider used to be key part of the market. Look at the car industry. Sometimes they make more money on the trade-ins than the actual car they are selling.
If the industry was more consolidated the design and manufacturing costs would probably be cheaper, the products cheaper, but the manufacturers would probably be more profitable.
Glad we got that sorted (does that mean the thread is dead now?) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SLS
Thanks Marco that's most kind. I had a quick look and couldn't find what I was after but I'll have a proper dig around later and see what's what ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco