View Full Version : Jimbos Audio ramblings
I can't believe I have been a member on AOS for nearly 10 years and I have not noticed the opportunity to put all my Audio related ramblings regarding my system in one place. Sometimes you cannot see the wood for the trees and you get immersed in forum posts and forget where you are. Although I would hardly say I am the most disciplined forum subscriber.
I decided at the beginning of this year to try a few different things regarding my interest in hifi, one of which was to nearly ditch all forums altogether and go off in another direction which I am working at currently. This little project is much more complicated and involved so it needs more time but it is an objective for 2023.
AOS has been an interesting forum and my first introduction to Internet forums I think back in 2013-2014. I must say a lot has changed since then probably for all of us as the world has changed considerably. Familiar faces have come and gone and a lot of the old HIFI arguments, sorry discussions seem to have run to a conclusion. I pop on here regularly and it is good to see there are still a good few folk I have met and many I have spoken too over the years still here even though some have wondered off to gain enlightenment elsewhere:lol:
I am still very much engaged in this Hobby but I must admit I don't take it quite as seriously as I did when I first started. Sometimes I feel I have reached a situation with my system that makes me feel it is now exactly where I want it to be as it delivers a very good performance across many music genres and always engages me as a listener and captures that magic that can be found in a lot of the recordings I have. The system connects me to the music extremely well and as I listen for 2-3 hours each evening I am reluctant to change anything too dramatically as my hifi fiddling over the years has taught me many of the changes in equipment I have made have resulted in a sideways move.
I was lucky when I first put my system together in that I chose components and equipment that just happened to work well together and system synergy resulted probably by accident. I have learnt along the way to my cost that because a component maybe very good in its own right it does not necessarily mean it will work in my system and this includes some surprises along the way where I though an amplifier upgrade from the same manufacture would be an easy win! Of course many folk on this forum know this but when I started back in 2014 I knew very little about putting together a great sounding system and then tweaking it to get the best out of it.
So today at the beginning of the New Year I have decided to write and photograph my Audiofool ramblings and put most of them here in the gallery. I may switch back and forth between the past, present and future but hopefully it will allow me to have a concise repository of the equipment I am using and have used in the past. I will start with my current system and then work around around this going back over other equipment I have tried which will include cartridges, turntables, amplifiers, digital equipment and many ancillary bits and bobs.
My current "lash up" is very similar to my 2015 system although there have been a few major changes due to the room size which now measure 23 x 9 x 12. I have replaced the Spender SP2s with the Hero GT702 speakers which are from a German manufacture. They attracted me because of their soft dome tweeter and Kraft paper cones and because I purchased them in lock down I was unable to hear a pair before buying but luckily they worked out fine. The important thing was that they were able to deliver a convincing performance in a room this size where as the Spendors were just lost. I do have plans for even bigger and hopefully better speakers in the future but the Hecos will do for now.
My current listening room.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52613732502_ca50fe93f6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oai8D1)FC32795E-6259-4A81-8C6F-D0245899AAC6_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2oai8D1) by [/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614499789_e89c9c5197_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)67B72E96-C2AA-459D-8B4E-506721F8E2B8_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2oan4J6) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
Certain aspects of the room may not look ideal but I have changed things around considerably and this has produced the best acoustic result even with the sofa between the speakers. It does not actually impact the treble or midrange as the driver units are above the level of the sofa. I am working on more room acoustics, specifically first reflection points which will be added in the near future.
I will continue detailing my system and the equipment I am using currently with new up to date photographs later.
lovely room james.. im sure it helps in the appreciation of your music. its always great to have a nice enviornment. good write up too
It is a lovely room but that sofa between the speakers? Also that glass-fronted cabinet on the left hand side seems to be bang on first reflection point?
I try not to get obsessed about this stuff, it doesn't do anything for being able to relax and enjoy music, and it probably doesn't have too much of a bad effect on the sound quality, but I would have to move that sofa. And move the turntable out of the corner too.
lovely room james.. im sure it helps in the appreciation of your music. its always great to have a nice enviornment. good write up too
Thanks Grant.
It is a lovely room but that sofa between the speakers? Also that glass-fronted cabinet on the left hand side seems to be bang on first reflection point?
I try not to get obsessed about this stuff, it doesn't do anything for being able to relax and enjoy music, and it probably doesn't have too much of a bad effect on the sound quality, but I would have to move that sofa. And move the turntable out of the corner too.
You have a keen Eye for potential room acoustic problems Martin and you are spot on. But believe it or not although the sofa may look an issue it actually sounds better with it there. I can and have moved it out of the room but there is no benefit. Now regarding the glass book case to the left you are correct it is an issue and I have to do something about that which will happen. Luckily the croft preamp has separate controls for right and left channel so I can compensate a little for the reflections with this as indeed you would in any room that had irregular acoustics.
The turntable in the corner is not an issue. I have no acoustic feedback problems at all with it situated there. Nothing gets through to to even though it is near the speaker even when I have massive bass tracks and lots of volume. It is absolutely rock solid and acoustically isolated with the set up I have more of which later. It is no worse than putting the turntable on an equipment rack between the speakers which is then subjegated to both with airborne and mechanical vibration. I grant you the only probable improvement may be a wall shelf?
Wakefield Turntables
08-01-2023, 11:52
What a lovely room, I going out to lunch now but can't wait to read this thread and interact later!
You have a keen Eye for potential room acoustic problems Martin and you are spot on. But believe it or not although the sofa may look an issue it actually sounds better with it there. I can and have moved it out of the room but there is no benefit.
No, I believe you, I have had similar speaker-couch set ups in the dim and distant past. It may even improve the sound due to damping. The reason I was saying I would have to move it was because visually I would find it hard to cope with it there. i.e 'it's just me' :)
No, I believe you, I have had similar speaker-couch set ups in the dim and distant past. It may even improve the sound due to damping. The reason I was saying I would have to move it was because visually I would find it hard to cope with it there. i.e 'it's just me' :)
I don't like it visually either and it does bug me as like the conventional look as it were of two speakers with space between but it does actually help with room acoustics. As you mention the extra damping really does help especially with the top end. Bass is not really affected. I look at many folks set up who have all their equipment set up between the speakers and wonder if this could actually be worse as there are lots of hard reflection points? Whatever works I guess?
My room volume is large and to be honest needs a fair bit more absorbent material but mainly on the walls.
I have plans for some first reflection point panels which need to be made and will probably include some artwork although they may simply be covered in a coloured material. As you may remember my mate Steve has done this in his huge acoustically treated rooms and it works very well indeed.
it doesn't bother me visually i have to say.. in fact i quite like it.
A piccy without the sofa.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51890646758_24b68c5963_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2n4p8rq)P1020566 (https://flic.kr/p/2n4p8rq) by , on Flickr
These speaker are 1.2 metres tall and fairly large but I think I could with something a fair bit bigger in the room with bigger drivers. Only problem would be more amplification but I have looked into this. Just need a lottery win!:)
My room volume is large and to be honest needs a fair bit more absorbent material but mainly on the walls.
I have plans for some first reflection point panels which need to be made and will probably include some artwork although they may simply be covered in a coloured material. As you may remember my mate Steve has done this in his huge acoustically treated rooms and it works very well indeed.
I use the foam wedge panels from Studio Spares https://www.studiospares.com/acoustics/acoustic-tiles/antiverb-30-acoustic-foam-tile-25mm-465300.htm on the door (which was giving off a distracting flutter echo) and on first reflection point. Cheap and get the job done but I am not really bothered about looks - although I think they look okay.
Helps to start with a good room which you seem to have. Then you don't really need to do that much.
I might be moving in late spring and new room is an acoustic nightmare.
I use the foam wedge panels from Studio Spares https://www.studiospares.com/acoustics/acoustic-tiles/antiverb-30-acoustic-foam-tile-25mm-465300.htm on the door (which was giving off a distracting flutter echo) and on first reflection point. Cheap and get the job done but I am not really bothered about looks - although I think they look okay.
Helps to start with a good room which you seem to have. Then you don't really need to do that much.
I might be moving in late spring and new room is an acoustic nightmare.
Look ok for the price, certainly inexpensive Martin. I will have a removable panel made for the front of the glass book shelf and probably use rock wool battens for the other first reflection points.
I have had a few rooms that have been an acoustic nightmare, usually dead square and small!
I was not sure of this room because of the wooden floor but it has not been an issue at all. I need all the help I can get with the bass!:lol:
I am sure I am not the only Audiophile who has decided to keep most of their system the same for a long period of time. When you look round the net and indeed in the very few hifi shops that remain there is always a constant barrage of new and shiny toys pulling at your wallet and ready to drain your bank account but often I have found products have become "The next best thing". Ok there are always possible improvements to be had but it can be a time consuming and expensive road to travel as I found in the 1980's when I first started to become obsessed with all things audio.
Back then I knew nothing. I was eager to put together a system that sounded good but what was a good system as there was so much kit and so many posibilities and until you try a lot of it you cannot make any valid judgements and therefore I became a "box swapper". I spent about half my salary I buying new equipment then keeping it for 6 months or so before moving on. Always lost money!:doh: But luckily then as now there were ways to try stuff for free. I had a great hifi shop near near and could borrow and listen to a lot of gear and there was always the option of popping round your mates to listen to their gear. Funny isn't it how we all end up with a different range of equipment and very rarely do you find two people have exactly the same system. This gave me an inkling into the complexity of putting together a hifi system and it was only in later years I worked out we all heard everything differently and had different rooms and different size wallets!:)
Anyhow after about 5 years of furious box swapping and so many systems I cannot remember every bit of kit I had I did stop. Eventually I knew what sound I liked from a system and what were the important aspects that ticked the boxes for me. They were the typical Audiophile terms such as transparency, imaging, naturalness, soundstage and clarity. Each of us can attribute particular areas of sound we think are important and key to our listening experience. Back in the 1980's it was probably "how fu%%kin loud does it go"!
So with an understanding gained from huge amounts of box swapping and an empty wallet I knew what sound I wanted form my system and therefore when I returned to hifi in 2015 after a 25 year hiatus I had an aural image in my head that I wanted to translate into a system and that is exactly what I have now in my current set up. There are now more avenues than ever to wander down searching for your hifi dream as the internet has exploded our exposure to hifi through forums, YouTube videos and online magazines but I had a rough idea which ares to look in to put together my current set up. I knew I liked valves, I knew I liked natural sounding speakers but what I had forgotten was how good vinyl sounded.
Without going back to deep and in too much detail of my hifi history I had spent 25 years not indulging much actively in his as I put all my money into purchasing a property. During this period I had a basic CD set up but having accidentally stumbled on vinyl again I knew that this was where I needed to go with my system, hence why I run a turntable for 95% of my music listening.
Sorry about the ramble but it is an attempt to explain why I have ended up with the system I have today. So without going into too much detail I have popped a few pics up of the current gear sitting in the corner of my listening room.
VPI Scout 1.1 turntable with JMW 9T tonearm and 2M Black cartridge
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614661765_156ec51760_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oanTSM)7AC3A9DC-BCA1-47F8-B8C1-436DA4BEF41A (https://flic.kr/p/2oanTSM) by [/url], on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2oao1wc]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614684119_afe293091b_h.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)8596E466-B73C-4E00-8FD1-02E59162C68D (https://flic.kr/p/2oao1wc) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614913768_dd9ecc5a22_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oapbME)06E5FA2C-B3E8-459F-87F5-7E0FE593C6DB (https://flic.kr/p/2oapbME) by sy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Croft 25R Preamp with upgraded line stage and al NOS valves
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614231876_5e14a2c133_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oakG5U)EB4D0289-E3BC-4208-B0E3-AF471410D3CE (https://flic.kr/p/2oakG5U) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46925136664_61d9dde628_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2euBAhq)IMG_0033 (https://flic.kr/p/2euBAhq) by , on Flickr
Croft 7R power amplifier with upgrader transformer
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2oazt3b]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52616919554_9e900f100f_h.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url)4117A2A5-0F78-49D6-B169-EBCDFF526F24 (https://flic.kr/p/2oazt3b) by J
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Heco Celan GT 702 speakers
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52616657261_2bb9215dd7_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oay84T)991321B0-2FCB-4186-A226-C3355B91AC02 (https://flic.kr/p/2oay84T) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
This wood burner has certainly been useful over the winter so far. Keeps the room at steady 21 oC and certainly helps warming the system up. I have to turn all my system off at night as it is all valve so each evening requires usually an hour before the system is running at its optimum capacity. Now it is good to go within 15-30 mins.
I have noticed quite a difference to the sound of my system when cold and then running at a room temp of 21oC. I guess the electronics, cartridge rubber suspension and speaker cones are all operating as they should at this temperature?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52614754004_8f117482e7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oaoni7)2A9A6F79-28DC-4DBC-8E31-199099495D33 (https://flic.kr/p/2oaoni7) by James Kortvelyessy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
saw your pics on flikr jim.. all very good, sharp snaps. i was impressed..:D
saw your pics on flikr jim.. all very good, sharp snaps. i was impressed..:D
I use a Panasonic GX80 which I bought about 4 years ago. Some of the lenses give it the edge over Phone pics but I feel its days are numbered. Nice to use a real camera, albeit digital rather than a phone.
I use a Panasonic GX80 which I bought about 4 years ago. Some of the lenses give it the edge over Phone pics but I feel its days are numbered. Nice to use a real camera, albeit digital rather than a phone.
bigger lens yes.. ive a canon powershot at moment but i dont get out much and often if i do i forget it. lol
i used to get a new one every few years to keep up but i quite like this one. the camera on the pixel is good tho too.
Phone cameras can't get anywhere near a good camera in low light conditions either. But the computational photographic imaging is catching up. Soon phone cameras will only just have to capture an imagine and the computer chips will take the information from the sensor and turn it into a fantastic picture. True Ai photography. To be fair some have got close to achieving this already.
Great read Jimbo.
Great looking room too, nice balance between the system and the vibe.
Its a great thing to have a system Blog I think, its good to be able to look back past bits of kit and setups you've enjoyed in the past.
I think we start out striving for "The System" we have in our heads initially?
Then as you say learn through expensive sideways moves and eventually end up with a system that ticks the boxes for the music we listen to.
A big part of that learning curve for me was hearing other peoples gear, stuff you might never hear, and realising that sometimes you just dont know what you like till you hear it!
You've found a happy spot, enjoy. :)
Great read Jimbo.
Great looking room too, nice balance between the system and the vibe.
Its a great thing to have a system Blog I think, its good to be able to look back past bits of kit and setups you've enjoyed in the past.
I think we start out striving for "The System" we have in our heads initially?
Then as you say learn through expensive sideways moves and eventually end up with a system that ticks the boxes for the music we listen to.
A big part of that learning curve for me was hearing other peoples gear, stuff you might never hear, and realising that sometimes you just dont know what you like till you hear it!
You've found a happy spot, enjoy. :)
Thanks Gary, it is always great to hear other stuff but I must say I have not done enough of this since the pandemic. I do get a listen at a mates place regularly but it would be good to hear more.
I am very happy with the system I have now and to be honest it would take something very special indeed to improve almost any aspect of it. I guess the speakers could be the weakest link in the chain but they are good enough for now. To upgrade them to something better would cost a fair bit but this would be my next possible move.
brian2957
11-01-2023, 11:14
Yup, heard your system a few years ago now James. OK...different room and different speakers, but I thought it sounded excellent. Like you I haven't heard much since the pandemic, but I did hear Gary's system a couple of weeks ago and I must say it was one of the best sounds I've heard for a very long time. As you know it's a bit of an 'exercise' to get down to yours, but it will happen. Hopefully this year. Disposable income is being redirected to an expensive overseas trip, but it will happen hopefully :)
It would be too get up your way and tour a tour of a few systems?:)
brian2957
11-01-2023, 11:45
It would be too get up your way and tour a tour of a few systems?:)
You would be made most welcome mate :)
+1 to that.
Honorary Member of the Scottish Mafia
(Just don't ask about the Initiation Ceremony...)
Cheers Gary.
I will have to ask Brian what the initiation ceremony envolves:lol:
PS I have heard your Rega P10 sounds astonishingly good?
It is a gamechanger Jim.
Seriously.
Just need a phono stage to do it justice (in the pipeline)
Cheers Gary.
I will have to ask Brian what the initiation ceremony envolves:lol:
PS I have heard your Rega P10 sounds astonishingly good?
it involves a pizza and cream cakes:eyebrows:
it involves a pizza and cream cakes:eyebrows:
Not haggis and whisky?:lol:
brian2957
11-01-2023, 13:17
it involves a pizza and cream cakes:eyebrows:
You forgot about the cricket bat Grant :lol:
You forgot about the cricket bat Grant :lol:
thought to keep that a surprise :rolleyes:
My very first interest in hifi and indeed my first actual hifi system started in 1976-1977. I had until that date been using the family all in one Bush record player which must have destroyed every single I played on it as I can never remember the stylus ever being changed!:eek: I was still at school at the time and getting more and more interested in music. Any of us around at that time were indeed lucky as the music coming out in the early to late seventies was just fantastic. My first singles were usually from bands like Mud or Showaddywaddy, how embarrassing but it was in 1976 I first got to hear a Pink Floyd record. Wish You Were here. I heard it played on cassette outside the school canteen and my life changed forever.
At that time I was becoming aware of audio equipment as I saw advertisements in magazines. It all looked super cool gear but I didn't understand it or what it did. I knew what a pair of speakers were and I understood a turntable but what did and amplifier do. What was a switch that said Aux/Tuner/Phono mean and what did it do. I understood bass and treble as we had those on an old radiogram but how a separate amplifier worked was beyond me. However all was soon to change when I bought my very first amplifier off a friends dad.
It was a Prinzsound SA 1001 Solid State Integrated Amplifier. This was the coolest thing I had ever bought but I wasn't sure how it worked or what you hooked up to what. My Hifi journey started with this one piece of kit even though I did not own any speakers or a turntable at the time but my days as an audiophile had begun. And this amplifier is still going strong and is used by another member of the family.
Prinzsound SA 1001 Integrated amplifier sold by Dixons UK and I think as a Monach amplifier in Europe. It was built in Japan between I think 1969 and 1976 and produced 10 watts into 8ohms.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52626174594_3b626ed010_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oboUeQ)07152951-0183-40BB-8491-25A45212D93A (https://flic.kr/p/2oboUeQ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]
Firebottle
14-01-2023, 07:48
Ooh the mix of rotary and slider controls never really did it for me.
Looks old fashioned now, though I do still have an amplifier from that era, an 'Albany House' AM-108 with a slider balance control.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=200798&d=1584044301
All of 16W at 1% distortion!
I like the fact that amplifiers from this era still distinguished themselves as Solid State just so you knew you were getting all new technology and not those old fashioned valve things!:lol:
Prinzsound - yes, I used to have this one
https://i.ibb.co/G5wCnTm/prinz.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
solid state y'all
A few users on the net think they sound pretty good. I am not so sure.
I think they did a Prinzsound SA 5001 with massive 30 watts per Chanel. Original selling price was £34. I bought mine for £14 second hand but it was still fairly new back then!
dixons??
Yes but I got mine from Richer Sounds second hand for twenty quid. Sleeve was knackered but I sanded it and stained it dark oak, looked a lot better than with the stock light colour wood. Sleeve is actually veneered chipboard IIRC.
Yes but I got mine from Richer Sounds second hand for twenty quid. Sleeve was knackered but I sanded it and stained it dark oak, looked a lot better than with the stock light colour wood. Sleeve is actually veneered chipboard IIRC.
I didn't know Richer sounds went back that far?:scratch:
I didn't know Richer sounds went back that far?:scratch:
late 70's
I didn't know Richer sounds went back that far?:scratch:
I bought it late 1980s but as I said it was second hand. Back then Richer did trade in and had a second hand section. Or at least the Liverpool one did.
late 70's
So they have lasted longer than Dixons. The first Hifi shop I walked into was called Laskys in Wolverhampton. Think I bought a turntable from them? I think you had Laskys in Scotland grant as they had 43 stores as far as Aberdeen!
If it wasn't for the old style Richer Sounds I don't think I would ever have got into hi-fi. They were the only place you could buy separates really cheap. There was Comet too and they used to advertise amazing bargains in the newspaper but when you went down there they never had any of it in stock. Laskey's was for millionaires ;)
So they have lasted longer than Dixons.
They've lasted longer than Dixons because they are good and Dixons was wank.
used to go to the big comet warehouse in edinburgh a lot. was an amazing place full of shiny rotel etc.. those were the days..
I bought my first HiFi “separate“ from Richer Sounds in Glasgow.
I think it was an Aiwa ADF-450 tape deck, but my memory is a little hazy.
I think that was paired with Jamo Compact 90 speakers, a Kenwood KA3020SE amp and a Pioneer PD-S703 CD.
Apart from the speakers, I still have all of the components. It would be interesting to see how far I have “progressed” over the years.
I can even build my second system - Arcam Alpha 7SE CD, Alpha 8R and 8P amplification with Cyrus CLS70 speakers.
When my wife takes my daughter skiing for a week, I may have to put the systems together and see what works best.
I bought my first HiFi “separate“ from Richer Sounds in Glasgow.
I think it was an Aiwa ADF-450 tape deck, but my memory is a little hazy.
I think that was paired with Jamo Compact 90 speakers, a Kenwood KA3020SE amp and a Pioneer PD-S703 CD.
Apart from the speakers, I still have all of the components. It would be interesting to see how far I have “progressed” over the years.
I can even build my second system - Arcam Alpha 7SE CD, Alpha 8R and 8P amplification with Cyrus CLS70 speakers.
When my wife takes my daughter skiing for a week, I may have to put the systems together and see what works best.
Would be good to hear what your old systems sounded like? I had an Aiwa tape deck for a short while but replaced it with a JVC. Where are they both now?
Yes, indeed. The Jamo Compact 90 were great for the price I paid - £0.
But they got damaged at a student house party. I replaced them with KEF Coda 9, which I still use in my home cinema system (paired with Coda C and Coda 7).
I would not expect either system to be as competent as my current system, but if you take “sound for pound” into consideration, then I may be in for a shock.
Yes, indeed. The Jamo Compact 90 were great for the price I paid - £0.
But they got damaged at a student house party. I replaced them with KEF Coda 9, which I still use in my home cinema system (paired with Coda C and Coda 7).
I would not expect either system to be as competent as my current system, but if you take “sound for pound” into consideration, then I may be in for a shock.
Absolutely. I would love to go back over some of my old system set ups and hear them again but I know none would come anywhere near what I have now. Every part of my current system far exceeded what I had back in the past even though I had some great stuff. You would laugh if you saw my Gerrard 301 turntable suspended on a wall shelf with no plinth just resting on the shelf with the motor dangling down. The tonearm was good and the Decca cartridge but I had no idea if they were installed correctly and I knew nothing about cartridge set up then as long as it was fixed to the arm!!:lol::doh:
would love to have my old mf a1000 again. but they are getting hard to find in good nick now. mine was pretty pristine
My first amplifier was a home-built Mullard 5-10. The TT was a Garrard SP25 II, with a Shure M3D cartridge (later replaced with an Audio Technika AT66). Speaker(s) were home-built using a Wharfedale RS8DD drive unit in a Wharfedale-designed distributed port enclosure of about 1 cu ft in size.
Later donated it all to my parents who used it with a Teleton 206Q amplifier:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Z8YAAOSwY3FhfAs7/s-l1600.jpg
Happy days. :)
walpurgis
14-01-2023, 14:33
My first amplifier came from a chap named Sugar. It was a disaster!
The next one was an obscure Japanese 'Olson' and was just fine.
My first amplifier came from a chap named Sugar. It was a disaster!
The next one was an obscure Japanese 'Olson' and was just fine.
ha... amstrad... not the best gear about but made him millions
My first amplifier was a home-built Mullard 5-10. The TT was a Garrard SP25 II, with a Shure M3D cartridge (later replaced with an Audio Technika AT66). Speaker(s) were home-built using a Wharfedale RS8DD drive unit in a Wharfedale-designed distributed port enclosure of about 1 cu ft in size.
Later donated it all to my parents who used it with a Teleton 206Q amplifier:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Z8YAAOSwY3FhfAs7/s-l1600.jpg
Happy days. :)
Not seen that brand before? I had a garrard Sp25 II early on, bit plasticky if I remember?
Interesting isn't it how we have all gone through a succession of amplifiers over the years and probably tried an assortment of technology, valves, Solid state, Class A, Class A-B and maybe now Class D. Amplification is a funny thing as it is difficult to know when you have got it right as there are always compromises along the way. With Class A it could be power. With valves it could be current and power. Sometimes we think we need loads of grunt and then other times we can hear an EL34 single ended Class A amp with flea power and be in heaven.
I suppose over the years we try a great variety of gear and come to conclusions what suits our ears best and this maybe divided between Transistor or Valve or Class A or Class A-B etc. I know I have settled with all valve preamp and phono stage and a Hybrid OTL power amp but to me they give an insight and presentation of the recording that sounds just right to my ears. I expect some of us a have different ideas of what sound we are trying to achieve and are dictated by power and speakers to go down a particular route.
I started out with a flea bite early transistor amp then leaped to a Quad 405-2 100 watt channel amp. I found the Quads a little plain vanilla for my liking but it did not stop me for going back for more later when they released the 606. It was a sweet sounding beast that just did the job but was not spectacular in any way.
In between I really liked a Leak Stereo 20 that had been re capped and upgraded by Glenn Croft which I used with his tiny Croft Micro. Very sweet and revealing sound and for me contained a little audio magic which I held in my thoughts for many years into the future when eventually I ended up with my current set up of Croft 25R and Series 7 power amp. I was indeed fortunate to live near Glenn and between 1986 and 2015 I heard most of the models of amps that he built along the way, some of which were very rare and short lived liked the Dakshini all valve OTL. His amps always got to the heart of the music and with vinyl seemed to take you right into the recording.
When I get some time I would like to write a little about his amps starting with the Micro and running through all his various models over the years as I can remember pretty well how most of them sounded. I am still very sad till this day that he is no longer with us. A true Gent and genius of the hifi world and his values and principles were a fantastic model for us audiophiles who wanted high end sound at low end prices!.
Mitsubishi had a hand in teleton... quite decent stuff
Mitsubishi had a hand in teleton... quite decent stuff
Don't think Mitsubishi are doing electronics much nowadays, more cars and air conditioning systems?
Mitsubishi? Or as I call them 'Shake it to bitsy'.
Pigmy Pony
15-01-2023, 08:50
No, I believe you, I have had similar speaker-couch set ups in the dim and distant past. It may even improve the sound due to damping. The reason I was saying I would have to move it was because visually I would find it hard to cope with it there. i.e 'it's just me' :)
If James were to replace the sofa with a rocking chair for when he plays his Val Doonican records it would be like Val was in the room :)
brian2957
15-01-2023, 09:12
If James were to replace the sofa with a rocking chair for when he plays his Val Doonican records it would be like Val was in the room :)
He also has a world class collection of Max Bygraves 33s and 45s :D
He also has a world class collection of Max Bygraves 33s and 45s :D
your worst nightmare?
https://images-cdn.bridgemanimages.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.XXX.53685270.7055475/7255456.jpg
thats a lot of teeth
Jumper over a polo-neck - classic. You don't see that no more.
I am sure Pigmy Pony wears that everyday.:)
walpurgis
15-01-2023, 09:58
your worst nightmare?
https://images-cdn.bridgemanimages.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.XXX.53685270.7055475/7255456.jpg
thats a lot of teeth
As seen on the British Legion juke box! :)
Jumper over a polo-neck - classic. You don't see that no more.
You do in my house at this time of the year. :ner:
You do in my house at this time of the year. :ner:
It's important to keep the old traditions alive.
Pigmy Pony
15-01-2023, 15:07
Thanks Gary, it is always great to hear other stuff but I must say I have not done enough of this since the pandemic. I do get a listen at a mates place regularly but it would be good to hear more.
I am very happy with the system I have now and to be honest it would take something very special indeed to improve almost any aspect of it. I guess the speakers could be the weakest link in the chain but they are good enough for now. To upgrade them to something better would cost a fair bit but this would be my next possible move.
If a change of speakers is on the cards, Heco's "The Statement"/"The New Statement" might be just the thing. Probably give you everything you like about the Celans, and then some.
[/B]
If a change of speakers is on the cards, Heco's "The Statement"/"The New Statement" might be just the thing. Probably give you everything you like about the Celans, and then some.
I may go for a different brand, maybe something from Dali. The Statements did not go down too well I believe at Chris's house?
I think the problem is the fact his speakers look like they are in the loft, so they could be heard throughout the house.
I think the problem is the fact his speakers look like they are in the loft, so they could be heard throughout the house.
Ah I got you, that was the reason he sold them?
Ah I got you, that was the reason he sold them?
That plus I think in the end he just preffered his Martin Logans.
These are on my list of speakers to investigate.
https://www.dali-speakers.com/en-gb/products/oberon/oberon-9
Out of interest Jimbo, what feet do you use on your current speakers?
I ask as I went from the rubber spikes supplied with my Antal EZ, to IsoPucks (which the speakers just sit on) and they really opened up the sound, without the HiFi price tag of the Gaia feet, and it looks like your house is likely to have a suspended wooden floor.
Out of interest Jimbo, what feet do you use on your current speakers?
I ask as I went from the rubber spikes supplied with my Antal EZ, to IsoPucks (which the speakers just sit on) and they really opened up the sound, without the HiFi price tag of the Gaia feet, and it looks like your house is likely to have a suspended wooden floor.
I use the rubber feet that came with the speakers which are very small but I sit them on two pieces of very heavy compact laminate which is a bit like slate. The spikes were terrible especially as you have guessed correctly I have a suspended wooden floor. The combination I have works very well but I must admit I would like to try something like the Gaia feet so may look at those Isopucks. Thanks for the recommendation.
Pigmy Pony
16-01-2023, 08:49
I am sure Pigmy Pony wears that everyday.:)
Only Monday to Friday, I have this for the weekend :)
https://static6.depositphotos.com/1014511/591/i/450/depositphotos_5913472-stock-photo-luchador-posing.jpg
"Gimme that Windfield cartridge, I'll set it up for you"
Only Monday to Friday, I have this for the weekend :)
https://static6.depositphotos.com/1014511/591/i/450/depositphotos_5913472-stock-photo-luchador-posing.jpg
"Gimme that Windfield cartridge, I'll set it up for you"
Cracking set of moobs. :eek:
hey, i said that was for private use only :ner:
Only Monday to Friday, I have this for the weekend :)
https://static6.depositphotos.com/1014511/591/i/450/depositphotos_5913472-stock-photo-luchador-posing.jpg
"Gimme that Windfield cartridge, I'll set it up for you"
:lol:
I use the rubber feet that came with the speakers which are very small but I sit them on two pieces of very heavy compact laminate which is a bit like slate. The spikes were terrible especially as you have guessed correctly I have a suspended wooden floor. The combination I have works very well but I must admit I would like to try something like the Gaia feet so may look at those Isopucks. Thanks for the recommendation.
How many Isopucks are you using under each speaker Kev?
4, based on the weight of the speakers.
My speakers are just over 27Kg each, so I needed to use 4 as they take about 9Kg each, and it is best not to use them at maximum rating.
My speakers are just over 27Kg each, so I needed to use 4 as they take about 9Kg each, and it is best not to use them at maximum rating.
Mine are about 30Kg each so I would need four under each.:hmm:
Mine are about 30Kg each so I would need four under each.:hmm: :thumbsup:
~Something in here is causing a lot of distortion and buzzing ---- occasionally!:doh:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52632170922_32440a49c1_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2obVCJN)0E52429B-D788-4940-B21F-D9EA3795F68E (https://flic.kr/p/2obVCJN) by [/url], on Flickr
The main culprits I believe from the research I have been doing are the caps. They are situated on removable boards but to get too them is tricky and requires a fair strip down.:eek:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52633124870_19f6573db5_h.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)253CD887-47AA-4268-AC80-8AFFAA33CC13 (https://flic.kr/p/2oc1wjb) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/, on Flickr
Ascertaining values etc and replacement equivalents maybe also tricky.:eek:
[
Plenty of Youtube videos on recapping these old beasts so just need plenty of patience and a good soldering iron.
brian2957
17-01-2023, 14:04
Take plenty of photos (no, not of yourself :eyebrows:) before you start taking it apart mate :eek:
Take plenty of photos (no, not of yourself :eyebrows:) before you start taking it apart mate :eek:
Now where's my hammer!:lol:
If only you knew a local valve amp specialist….
blue one with the corrosion looks your best bet
blue one with the corrosion looks your best bet
Thanks Grant this will be first on the hit list!
just need plenty of patience and a good soldering iron.
I can recommend the Hakko FX-888D. It is a good bit of kit, but beware, there are plenty of fakes on the market.
Yesterday I started to Investigate improvements to my listening room acoustics as I have already found significant changes can be affected with increasing the amount of general furnishings in the room. However the next stage will have to include deliberate "audiophile" acoustic solutions. If the listening room was absolutely under my control and I did not have to share it as a living space I could go very extreme and build into it all the significant room acoustic architecture I would need to control the acoustic signature of the room. I have gained an extensive knowledge of how to do this from my friend Steve who has taken this approach to the extreme. But I have to share the living space with family and it has to be seen as an "acceptable" living room although I have been granted it is our listening room.
Last year I removed everything from the room and observed that is was indeed a big echoey space. even though it was carpeted and had decent underlay. At one end of the room I have a large window and at the back of the room behind my head I have two large glass panelled doors exiting into the kitchen diner. These have now been sorted with very thick super insulated and thermally lined curtains at the one end and to get around the door problems at the other I just open them. No reflection there.
Moving three sofas into the room then damped down the acoustics significantly and when the curtains are drawn I get a very good controlled end to that part of the room with the speakers. Further up the room towards the listening chair I start to notice the room reflections and reverberation. Simple hand claps will tell you how reflective the room gets.. I have absolutely no problems with bass issues and probably even lack a bit of bass but midrange is excellent. However the treble/ top end information as is quite common has issues. The amount of furnishing in the room has taken away any grain and harshness to the sound. It certainly does not sound overly bright and cymbals etc ring true and clean without any glare or over emphasis.
So you might think as I did what are the issues with the acoustics regarding the top end. Well in order to understand this I have had to start implementing some first reflection point acoustic absorption. You sometimes don't know how things can sound better or what you are missing until the improvements happen and this its certainly true of room acoustics. When you start implementing acoustic control you influence the sound of you system and what it can achieve significantly. I am keen however to not go to far and take away anything that I have that I feel is good.
So the first issue was to prevent the glass in the bookshelf from reflecting and influencing the treble coming from the right and speakers. So a panel of very thick padded material with sound absorbing properties is being made for this. On the other side of the room I will have to install another panel of probably rock wool covered either in plain material or maybe art work. I know how to construct this but in order to understand the effect it would have I tried a make shift panel. I may need another smaller panel on the left hand side too bit will assess how the book case glass panel works first.
As I mentioned I did roughly install some make shift panels and there results were as follows.
1. The imaging became much more precise and everything in the sound stage could be observed far more clearly.
2. Treble was not rolled of or reduced but greater levels of detail were exposed.
3. Soundstage was not changed in size but way more controlled. Where as before it was a bit fuzzy round the extremes and a bit effusive it snapped into focus. There was again more precision as to what was happening and where in the sound stage and the depth and edges were far easier to ascertain.
4. The combination of a lot better imaging and more detail produced some astonishing effects. These being information in the recordings that were hither to unintelligible or missing snapped into focus and were revealed. Harmonies and layering of information in the recordings were suddenly perceptible. It was as if all the information was there before but mixed together so some parts of the recording obscured others. The effect of sorting the first reflective points untangled all parts of the recording mix and made them much more obvious and clear cut.
I can only liken it to looking through a camera lens and then turning it to focus on the subject.
To be honest it was not a surprise that controlling the first reflection points had a significant outcome but what was a surprise was what it actually did. I have heard acoustically treated rooms but until you do it yourself with a system and room you know well you can't quite get a handle on what the effects were. I found they were profound and once heard cannot be unheard.
I will post up some picture when I have the finished the reflection point acoustics when they are made properly and installed as they are only prototypes currently for me to certain if they were worth doing and what effects they had.
From what I heard they are absolutely worth installing and have made a huge difference to that critical part of my system where you hear most of the information that is going on in the recording. It just goes to show how important it is to pay attention to your system and its interaction with the room acoustics as you can miss out on so much potential you never realised was there.
The problem with acoustic panels is having the WAF acceptability criteria fulfilled, at the same time as having the audio criteria at an acceptable level.
My listening space is certainly not as attractive as yours, as I have my home working space, my UK TV, Hifi, sim racing rig and the Sofas squeezed into it.
I have a wall just behind my head, but as long as the volume levels are kept reasonable, the system sounds fine. I don't have any sidewalls next to my speakers, so my first reflection point is likely to be the wall. I really should try and do something....
As my "cave" is on a mezzanine floor, speaker isolation was a priority, but also the volume needs to stay reasonable. The IsoPucks made a big difference. I let a friend borrow them, and he has since ordered them, as he could not believe what a difference they made.
I don't have WAF to take into consideration, as she never spends an extended period time in my man cave. But sticking rockwool on the wall behind me does not appeal to me.
It needs to be something aesthetically pleasing. I started to look at GIK panels, but getting the right images is always a challenge.
The problem with acoustic panels is having the WAF acceptability criteria fulfilled, at the same time as having the audio criteria at an acceptable level.
My listening space is certainly not as attractive as yours, as I have my home working space, my UK TV, Hifi, sim racing rig and the Sofas squeezed into it.
I have a wall just behind my head, but as long as the volume levels are kept reasonable, the system sounds fine. I don't have any sidewalls next to my speakers, so my first reflection point is likely to be the wall. I really should try and do something....
As my "cave" is on a mezzanine floor, speaker isolation was a priority, but also the volume needs to stay reasonable. The IsoPucks made a big difference. I let a friend borrow them, and he has since ordered them, as he could not believe what a difference they made.
I don't have WAF to take into consideration, as she never spends an extended period time in my man cave. But sticking rockwool on the wall behind me does not appeal to me.
It needs to be something aesthetically pleasing. I started to look at GIK panels, but getting the right images is always a challenge.
Yes the WAF appeal does have to be taken into account but even without WAF I agree it does have to fit in with your living environment and look acceptable. I would definitely recommend trialling some rock wool battens, you will be surprised at the result. Try and reduce any reflective surfaces lespecially glass and hard surfaces if you can. Biggest differences are around imaging and the details contain there in.
I am almost certainly going to try the Isopucks Kev when I get round to it. I am sure they are going to add something significant or take something significant away? I need 8 x 9Kg weight bearing picks so that's £200 which sounds reasonable price.
Just to show you what can be done to make room acoustics look appealing. This is my mates place and shows some construction of some of the individual panels. sorry there are quite a few pics but scroll through to the end to see finished result. It is amazing!
https://sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/what-took-so-long-then/
just needs the long table and the stucket pig:D
Just to show you what can be done to make room acoustics look appealing. This is my mates place and shows some construction of some of the individual panels. sorry there are quite a few pics but scroll through to the end to see finished result. It is amazing!
https://sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/what-took-so-long-then/
:eek:
I am planning to finish my cinema room this year, but there is no way that I am going to that level of sound proofing.
I plan on doing some, but my challenge is going to be the floor, as it is a suspended wooden floor. The joists are visible in the lounge and kitchen, so if I don't want a step into the cinema room, then I have to insulate in the main living areas.
Options are, do nothing, or spend a lot of time making things look nice downstairs. The wife wants me to paint the wood white downstairs, so this may be an opportunity to improve the acoustic insulation in the cinema room, and keep her happy.
I should also decouple my sub from the wooden floor.
just needs the long table and the stucket pig:D
It does have that feel. With all the furniture etc he has now installed there is a steam punk vibe!
charles hidalgo
19-01-2023, 17:01
Yesterday I started to Investigate improvements to my listening room acoustics as I have already found significant changes can be affected with increasing the amount of general furnishings in the room. However the next stage will have to include deliberate "audiophile" acoustic solutions. If the listening room was absolutely under my control and I did not have to share it as a living space I could go very extreme and build into it all the significant room acoustic architecture I would need to control the acoustic signature of the room. I have gained an extensive knowledge of how to do this from my friend Steve who has taken this approach to the extreme. But I have to share the living space with family and it has to be seen as an "acceptable" living room although I have been granted it is our listening room.
Last year I removed everything from the room and observed that is was indeed a big echoey space. even though it was carpeted and had decent underlay. At one end of the room I have a large window and at the back of the room behind my head I have two large glass panelled doors exiting into the kitchen diner. These have now been sorted with very thick super insulated and thermally lined curtains at the one end and to get around the door problems at the other I just open them. No reflection there.
Moving three sofas into the room then damped down the acoustics significantly and when the curtains are drawn I get a very good controlled end to that part of the room with the speakers. Further up the room towards the listening chair I start to notice the room reflections and reverberation. Simple hand claps will tell you how reflective the room gets.. I have absolutely no problems with bass issues and probably even lack a bit of bass but midrange is excellent. However the treble/ top end information as is quite common has issues. The amount of furnishing in the room has taken away any grain and harshness to the sound. It certainly does not sound overly bright and cymbals etc ring true and clean without any glare or over emphasis.
So you might think as I did what are the issues with the acoustics regarding the top end. Well in order to understand this I have had to start implementing some first reflection point acoustic absorption. You sometimes don't know how things can sound better or what you are missing until the improvements happen and this its certainly true of room acoustics. When you start implementing acoustic control you influence the sound of you system and what it can achieve significantly. I am keen however to not go to far and take away anything that I have that I feel is good.
So the first issue was to prevent the glass in the bookshelf from reflecting and influencing the treble coming from the right and speakers. So a panel of very thick padded material with sound absorbing properties is being made for this. On the other side of the room I will have to install another panel of probably rock wool covered either in plain material or maybe art work. I know how to construct this but in order to understand the effect it would have I tried a make shift panel. I may need another smaller panel on the left hand side too bit will assess how the book case glass panel works first.
As I mentioned I did roughly install some make shift panels and there results were as follows.
1. The imaging became much more precise and everything in the sound stage could be observed far more clearly.
2. Treble was not rolled of or reduced but greater levels of detail were exposed.
3. Soundstage was not changed in size but way more controlled. Where as before it was a bit fuzzy round the extremes and a bit effusive it snapped into focus. There was again more precision as to what was happening and where in the sound stage and the depth and edges were far easier to ascertain.
4. The combination of a lot better imaging and more detail produced some astonishing effects. These being information in the recordings that were hither to unintelligible or missing snapped into focus and were revealed. Harmonies and layering of information in the recordings were suddenly perceptible. It was as if all the information was there before but mixed together so some parts of the recording obscured others. The effect of sorting the first reflective points untangled all parts of the recording mix and made them much more obvious and clear cut.
I can only liken it to looking through a camera lens and then turning it to focus on the subject.
To be honest it was not a surprise that controlling the first reflection points had a significant outcome but what was a surprise was what it actually did. I have heard acoustically treated rooms but until you do it yourself with a system and room you know well you can't quite get a handle on what the effects were. I found they were profound and once heard cannot be unheard.
I will post up some picture when I have the finished the reflection point acoustics when they are made properly and installed as they are only prototypes currently for me to certain if they were worth doing and what effects they had.
From what I heard they are absolutely worth installing and have made a huge difference to that critical part of my system where you hear most of the information that is going on in the recording. It just goes to show how important it is to pay attention to your system and its interaction with the room acoustics as you can miss out on so much potential you never realised was there.
The Room: The most important and most overlooked part of the audio chain. I have posted many photos (sorry for so many but I forget a lot if I dont photograph it). I have been in this room for over 23 years and did not seriously attack the "room" issues until about four years ago. It was the biggest and most satisfying improvement ever in my over 40 years of listening rooms. I have been in every position on every square inch of this room and after years of placement and positioning of things it was worth it all. I will say also that the textbook answer or theory is not always what ends up working as each room, gear, and pair of ears are different but there are plenty of places to read and at least get started. It may save you unnecessary money and more importantly to me it saved me time. There are no more hours of switching speakers, or positions, and on and on. just fire things up and listen. I and "WE" are types that will still always try new stuff and new ideas but once I knew this room and what it took to help it give me the best it possibly could the reward was huge. Anything now that is new or unrecognized like a component and even sometimes a cable is noticed also, and sometimes not in a subtle way.
Cheers
charles hidalgo
19-01-2023, 17:07
https://sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/what-took-so-long-then/
That room is incredible BTW!
Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2023, 17:29
Right tonight is the night to read this thread !!
It does have that feel. With all the furniture etc he has now installed there is a steam punk vibe!
The effort and hard work that has gone into that room is astonishing. Well done to that man - I hope he can now 'kick back' and enjoy the fruits of his labours.
However, tastes are a very individual thing - I don't think I could relax in the room as it appears. But each to their own.
The effort and hard work that has gone into that room is astonishing. Well done to that man - I hope he can now 'kick back' and enjoy the fruits of his labours.
However, tastes are a very individual thing - I don't think I could relax in the room as it appears. But each to their own.
That is Steves third and final room. This last one took about two and a half years to build! Yes taste is a personal thing, very much like hifi?:)
The Room: The most important and most overlooked part of the audio chain. I have posted many photos (sorry for so many but I forget a lot if I dont photograph it). I have been in this room for over 23 years and did not seriously attack the "room" issues until about four years ago. It was the biggest and most satisfying improvement ever in my over 40 years of listening rooms. I have been in every position on every square inch of this room and after years of placement and positioning of things it was worth it all. I will say also that the textbook answer or theory is not always what ends up working as each room, gear, and pair of ears are different but there are plenty of places to read and at least get started. It may save you unnecessary money and more importantly to me it saved me time. There are no more hours of switching speakers, or positions, and on and on. just fire things up and listen. I and "WE" are types that will still always try new stuff and new ideas but once I knew this room and what it took to help it give me the best it possibly could the reward was huge. Anything now that is new or unrecognized like a component and even sometimes a cable is noticed also, and sometimes not in a subtle way.
Cheers
You are right Charles the room is the most overlooked part of the system but understandably so because it requires quite a bit of effort and disruption. I can see that you have indeed done much to yours and I expect you have spent many hours evaluating each part. Very time consuming but the final rewards are definitely worth it. I have all the theory and knowledge gleaned from my friend but putting into practise is another matter!:)
Right tonight is the night to read this thread !!
:thumbsup::wave:
Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2023, 20:56
Jim,
Great thread! I agree with about temperature, my valve system seems to sound better in a warm rather than cold room. Room treatment is something I've been thinking about for ages but just never found time, maybe one day. Be interesting to see how your experiments pan out.
The room treatment is very interesting as it manipulates the sound so much. I have spent many years concentrating on all other aspects of my system, in particular vibration around the turntable and tweaked cables, valves and positioning but the room treatment really does give big bangs for small bucks. It not really a fine tune of the system it is a fundamental change in how the system and aspects of it interact with the room and therefore your ears!
Last night I was contemplating the significance of controlling the first reflections and its affects on the tweeter information. It is quite profound. It affects timing, direction/reflection, intensity and therefore the quality of both the detail and imaging.What I have observed is that controlling the high end sound waves obviously means you are hearing more coming directly at you from the tweeter rather than being bounced off the walls. This means the speakers are giving me a far more accurately constructed image of what is going on in the recording. Bouncing sound waves in this part of the audio band really does smear and obscure the imaging.
What I am now hearing from recordings is a much clearer picture of the layering in the recording. Instead of everything overlapping and generally muddying the sound I am now hearing layering of information and much much better imaging, so much so things in the mix that I was unaware of before have now been made crystal clear which in some cases is astonishing especially concerning vocals where the performer may have double miked themselves or added backing accompaniment of their own voice singing along. Before I sometimes heard this as one or nothing now it is distinctly separated.
I intend to do more evaluation of recordings over the weekend and can't wait to discover what other recordings I know very well have to offer with the change in room treatment.
brian2957
20-01-2023, 09:41
Great post again James, looks like you are making inroads into an area that few of us really explore. I may look into this in the warmer weather when I can use the garage to make up moveable frames for room treatment panels :)
Great post again James, looks like you are making inroads into an area that few of us really explore. I may look into this in the warmer weather when I can use the garage to make up moveable frames for room treatment panels :)
Definitely worth playing around with especially if you can knock something up cheaply. When you think how much we pay for even small changes to the sound of our system, room acoustic manipulation is a no brainer. Far bigger changes can be made to the sound of your system than just changing an amp or cable. I still think speakers and cartridge can have a bigger effect but in order to get the sort of soundstage and imaging up lift I have found then acoustic treatment is the way to go.:)
Excellent article on room acoustics. Far better than my efforts explaining the effects.
https://blog.keepcoding.ch/?p=715
Definitely worth playing around with especially if you can knock something up cheaply. )
yes no need to spend big money on 'dedicated' treatments in order to get significant gains. I have a roll bubble wrap sat on top of a roll of loft insulation in what was an empty and reflective corner and it works a treat.
Of course that's not for everyone.
There are ways around the WAF issues and for those blokes who care about the aesthetics. For example - first reflection points, place a couple of plants there. Maybe not quite as effective as a dedicated panel but still way better than nothing. And no woman in history has ever complained about there being more plants in the room.
brian2957
20-01-2023, 21:06
Probably have to read that a few times for it to sink in James :)
yes no need to spend big money on 'dedicated' treatments in order to get significant gains. I have a roll bubble wrap sat on top of a roll of loft insulation in what was an empty and reflective corner and it works a treat.
Of course that's not for everyone.
There are ways around the WAF issues and for those blokes who care about the aesthetics. For example - first reflection points, place a couple of plants there. Maybe not quite as effective as a dedicated panel but still way better than nothing. And no woman in history has ever complained about there being more plants in the room.
I dare not mention plants helping in a room as my living room will be turned into the Amazon jungle!:eek:
I dare not mention plants helping in a room as my living room will be turned into the Amazon jungle!:eek:Cheap way to do it and you get extra O2 to breathe
Pigmy Pony
21-01-2023, 09:02
I have a Yukka living next to one of the speakers, looks just like this one. I think it helps a bit. Unfortunately no room for a plant near the other one.
https://www.bahcedensepete.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Yukka-3l%C3%BC-beyaz-570x795.jpg
Making something....?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52638379461_315591f1f5_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2octsjz)0243BFDA-7594-471E-820E-CB7FFC6DCBBF (https://flic.kr/p/2octsjz) by , on Flickr
Ooh, Schwalbe "Nobby Nic" tyres.
Ooh, Schwalbe "Nobby Nic" tyres.
Well spotted Kev, didn't know you where a Mountain Biker. It is an old school bike - Cove Hummer but it is indistructable as it is an all Titanium frame. Hope dual pot hydraulic brakes and Chris King headset.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52639900401_c504abde07_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocBfrF)F4D26253-008B-4684-813C-92DD07F1FE0C (https://flic.kr/p/2ocBfrF) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr
Well spotted Kev, didn't know you where a Mountain Biker. It is an old school bike - Cove Hummer but it is indistructable as it is an all Titanium frame. Hope dual pot hydraulic brakes and Chris King headset.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52639900401_c504abde07_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocBfrF)F4D26253-008B-4684-813C-92DD07F1FE0C (https://flic.kr/p/2ocBfrF) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr
I see your old school, and raise it with an "original" Mount Vision complete with V brakes and upgraded Fox rear shock/Marzocchi forks. ;)
A few more from the collection.....
Whyte MTB
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52640396923_74608cb50c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocDN3p)IMG_0466 (https://flic.kr/p/2ocDN3p) by [/url], on Flickr
Specialized Diverge Gravel bike
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ocBmF9]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52639921366_1059313bbc_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)31F892AE-8253-49BB-8659-9E0BCD88E87E (https://flic.kr/p/2ocBmF9) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
A nice collection...
I have an old school Pine Mountain, used to be fitted with Pace RC35 forks, but I have replaced them with Rigid forks to have a winter trainer/commuter.
The other bike is an Orbea Onyx.
A nice collection...
I have an old school Pine Mountain, used to be fitted with Pace RC35 forks, but I have replaced them with Rigid forks to have a winter trainer/commuter.
The other bike is an Orbea Onyx.
Those Pace forks were very nice however I feel Rockshox and Fox have now got the market. I went rigid on an old MTB and loved it.
Those Pace forks were very nice however I feel Rockshox and Fox have now got the market. I went rigid on an old MTB and loved it.
bicycle talk, it means nothing to me. I'm guessing 'MTB' doesn't mean Motor Torpedo Boat.
I know what a Raleigh Chopper is if that helps.
bicycle talk, it means nothing to me. I'm guessing 'MTB' doesn't mean Motor Torpedo Boat.
I know what a Raleigh Chopper is if that helps.
Haha, yes my other big interest is cycling and it too is just as nerdy as HIFI when you get into it. If you lucky I may even share some photos of me in full lycra outfit.
Only kidding that would get me banned from the forum and no one would wish to see the horrors of an old man in lycra!:lol:
i dont even want to see a young man in lycra...:doh:
Pigmy Pony
21-01-2023, 20:37
Haha, yes my other big interest is cycling and it too is just as nerdy as HIFI when you get into it. If you lucky I may even share some photos of me in full lycra outfit.
Only kidding that would get me banned from the forum and no one would wish to see the horrors of an old man in lycra!:lol:
Well you've already confessed to getting rigid with an old MTB (whoever that was). I imagine that was a horrible sight...
walpurgis
21-01-2023, 21:05
MTB - "Mountain Bike".
I have a couple. Strangely, there are no mountains around here :).
I have a couple. Strangely, there are no mountains around here :).
They're called 'Mountain' bikes because they were invented by a bloke called Dave Mountain.
Probably.
Acoustic room panels begin with bookcase panel. This will be about 2 inches thick and triple ply manufactured with fabric, acoustic wadding then backing material.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52642420665_20cbf1644c_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocQaCv)C64E00B1-93DF-4785-9444-793CEE677770 (https://flic.kr/p/2ocQaCv) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Nearly finished....
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52642563755_8a9625134a_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocQUaz)BFB49C7A-93D9-4D6C-B003-5D816FA74445 (https://flic.kr/p/2ocQUaz) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]url], on Flickr
brian2957
23-01-2023, 11:49
That's a lovely job mate and perfect for what's intended. I look forward to your implementation of room treatment and their effect. I will probably follow in your footsteps, however, my listening room is much smaller than yours and so will require a smaller version :)
Thanks Brian, the other side will look a lot more regular as it were but I have plans too implement an effective wall mounted panel.:eyebrows:
So the room acoustic treatment evaluation continues and I have tried adding asorbtion panels at the early reflecting points established primarily by using a mirror whilst sitting at the listening position. Listening evaluation once again confirms the benefit for just utilising first reflection panels with much better soundstage both in depth and width and once again far better imaging.
I found this article this afternoon which confirms exactly what I am hearing.
http://realtraps.com/rfz.htm
When I have everything finished in situ and sorted I will post up pics. I am hoping to use Room EQ Wizard to evaluate room properly but I just need to get hold of a microphone off a friend!
brian2957
24-01-2023, 19:33
Looks like you're on the right track mate :)
Looks like you're on the right track mate :)
Hopefully. Might have the finished panels done by the end of the week.:eyebrows::)
brian2957
24-01-2023, 19:45
That'll be interesting :)
Hopefully. Might have the finished panels done by the end of the week.:eyebrows::)
And then Mrs Jimbo will tell you that there is no way you are putting those things in the lounge! :eyebrows:
And then Mrs Jimbo will tell you that there is no way you are putting those things in the lounge! :eyebrows:
Yes your right, I am pushing it a bit so they will have to be WAF approved.:(
Another excellent article on room treatment. All of these can be found within the RealTraps website I linked to earlier.
https://hometoys.com/characteristics-of-a-good-sounding-room/
Tried the 38% rule last last night and moved speakers forward a little. In order to get a much better sound I would actually need to put a chair in the middle of my room with a perfect equilateral triangle but this would look stupid in my current room set up. However when I am on my own listening I may try this on occasion.
It means I would almost be near field listening in the room and I have a plan how I may achieve this with a simple radical change to the room which I am going to try. It will probably change radically how my whole system sounds but I will give it a go even though it will look bonkers. I will set it up later today when the house is empty and give it a go and post some pics up.
:eek:
Interesting journey James, a good read too.
Not looked at room treatment,
but for speaker placement I found this guys methodology really good.
Worked great for me.
https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0
hornucopia
26-01-2023, 12:28
I wrapped my panels in white material to merge with the (white) walls. Well,they don't disappear but it helps.
The speakers are white for same reason. A bit different from Klipschorns from the 90s,or the Leak 3090s that were here for 10 years.
Interesting journey James, a good read too.
Not looked at room treatment,
but for speaker placement I found this guys methodology really good.
Worked great for me.
https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0
I will take a look at that later Gary - thanks
I wrapped my panels in white material to merge with the (white) walls. Well,they don't disappear but it helps.
The speakers are white for same reason. A bit different from Klipschorns from the 90s,or the Leak 3090s that were here for 10 years.
Yeah there is so much you can do with these panels Chris. I need them to stay WAF friendly so they will either co ordinated to match the room or eventually end up as Art works whatever those maybe?
Another view of the system. Mid century meets modern.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52651644311_c4655aef22_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2odDruT)29D7B6A6-1190-43A2-9F30-6C3BF8A54923 (https://flic.kr/p/2odDruT) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
brian2957
27-01-2023, 09:19
Fab pictures James. Those are mighty big speakers :eek:
Fab pictures James. Those are mighty big speakers :eek:
Cheers Brian.
They are big and difficult to get a true perspective of them in the room from the other end where they can look small.
This is another picture I took yesterday without the sofa and sitting half way down the room. There is about 10 feet behind my listening position to the back of the room from here but it would mean putting the sofa almost in front of the wood burner.:eek:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52652208840_23b6d5bbc0_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2odGkj9)ED88AB55-4A5C-44A1-8970-B425D13CC7D5_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2odGkj9) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/[/url], on Flickr
brian2957
27-01-2023, 10:35
looks like a nice listening space though. Love the view from the window too :)
Materials have all arrived today so tomorrow will be final assembly for first reflection traps. After reading and consulting a good many reference articles I think it may be best to not over do the first reflection points as I do not want to attenuate any midrange frequencies and certainly no lower mid/bass frequencies so I am aiming at just the top end first reflections. Therefore the traps will not have to be too deep or too large hopefully.
As always proof of the pudding will be in the listening. :)
brian2957
28-01-2023, 18:24
Hope it all goes well James. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished article and where you put them.
Hope it all goes well James. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished article and where you put them.
Positioning has been nearly sorted. Listening tonight - Massive soundstage, huge increase in clarity across the board.
But this is not only down to the prototype panels but also speaker positioning. They obviously go hand in hand and can only be determined by listening. Measurements may give some insight but your own ears always have the final say. All the theories and measurements only get you so far but I do acknowledge they get you close to the ball park. Personal preference in listening is the final arbiter as it is so easy to manipulate the sound depending on positioning.
When you take into consideration all the factors involved. Room, equipment, speaker position, furniture and acoustic treatment the permutations become ming boggling as with all things hifi it is a case of suck it and see and keep fiddling till you think it sound right to you. It may not be ruler flat frequency response across the spectrum and technically it may not be accurate but ultimately it is the sound you want to achieve and think sounds right to you that is important.
The acoustic treatment of course attenuates the speaker response so it has to be handled carefully. Too little and its not effective and too much and you can easily kill the sound.
I am finding that the increase in information, clarity, soundstage and imaging is the key for me. Get all these aspects right and I think you will be near optimising your system as best as you can in your home environment.
brian2957
28-01-2023, 19:11
And how is WAF coming into effect here?
And how is WAF coming into effect here?
Very well at the moment. No resistance!:eek:
Wakefield Turntables
28-01-2023, 19:42
:popcorn:
Whilst I was doing some evaluation I tried some improvised Bass traps. Killed the sound. Damped the Bass and killed the openess of the sound. Also lost some of the soundstage.:doh:
Wakefield Turntables
28-01-2023, 20:02
Inspired by this thread I removed several pictures with glass coverings. It appears things sound better, surely this is psychological ???
Wakefield Turntables
28-01-2023, 20:04
Jim, which bits of the soundstage are you trying to fine tune? What's your objectives?
Jim, which bits of the soundstage are you trying to fine tune? What's your objectives?
Mainly the imaging and top end information. Controlling the first reflection points has had a dramatic effect on all aspects of the soundstage. It is now wider, deeper and all aspects of the recording can now be pin pointed and observed more clearly. Some of the information previously had been obscured by the screwed up reflections and timing I was getting from the tweeters which had bounced it round the room a bit too much.
Now everything in the recording is clearer and more intelligible. Acoustic reflections and recorded ambience are easier to discern and in some cases previously hidden aspects are now resolved far clearer. Bit like focussing a camera lens where you can see the image far clearer.
If you look through some of the links I have put up Andy you will understand what I am trying to achieve and some of the benefits I am now hearing.
:popcorn:
brian2957
29-01-2023, 10:08
Very well at the moment. No resistance!:eek:
Lol..good news. You gonna push yer luck?
brian2957
29-01-2023, 10:12
Mainly the imaging and top end information. Controlling the first reflection points has had a dramatic effect on all aspects of the soundstage. It is now wider, deeper and all aspects of the recording can now be pin pointed and observed more clearly. Some of the information previously had been obscured by the screwed up reflections and timing I was getting from the tweeters which had bounced it round the room a bit too much.
Now everything in the recording is clearer and more intelligible. Acoustic reflections and recorded ambience are easier to discern and in some cases previously hidden aspects are now resolved far clearer. Bit like focussing a camera lens where you can see the image far clearer.
If you look through some of the links I have put up Andy you will understand what I am trying to achieve and some of the benefits I am now hearing.
:popcorn:
Great result for small outlay. Some of us spend thousands to try to achieve what you're achieving here. Are you going further with thicker panels or are you leaving things as they are.
Any chance of some pictures of size/positioning James.
That's interesting re bass traps James.
AJSki2fly
29-01-2023, 11:50
Inspired by this thread I removed several pictures with glass coverings. It appears things sound better, surely this is psychological ???
Very likely what you hear is correct, if the pictures with glass covering are of a reasonable size they will be lovely reflectors, the wall is likelier a deader and less reflective medium so hence the perceived SQ improvement. :)
AJSki2fly
29-01-2023, 12:01
Mainly the imaging and top end information. Controlling the first reflection points has had a dramatic effect on all aspects of the soundstage. It is now wider, deeper and all aspects of the recording can now be pin pointed and observed more clearly. Some of the information previously had been obscured by the screwed up reflections and timing I was getting from the tweeters which had bounced it round the room a bit too much.
Now everything in the recording is clearer and more intelligible. Acoustic reflections and recorded ambience are easier to discern and in some cases previously hidden aspects are now resolved far clearer. Bit like focussing a camera lens where you can see the image far clearer.
If you look through some of the links I have put up Andy you will understand what I am trying to achieve and some of the benefits I am now hearing.
:popcorn:
A great result, James. I think many do not realise just how SQ improvement can be made with some care speaker adjustments and sympathetic room treatment.
I did a similar exercise a few months ago, and using REW measurements as I made changes I could not only hear the improvements but also see the changes in the frequency response at my listening position. I started tuning the speaker postion to its optimum within my room constraints and then added temporary dampers(curtains, fleece throes) and removed or cover up reflective items(TV, pictures). If I hang old thick curtains at the 1st & 2nd reflection points this really improves imaging and definition. I have put 2 art acoustic panels on the wall I face when listening and this also helps definition. On the wall behind me I put up all my old CD shelving and CDs randomly spaced along with some other objects this also helped. From the REW measurements I could achieve more improvement but that would mean installing bass traps and that would be a step too far for SWMBO. The temporary curtains at the 1st, 2nd reflection points I put up on 1m poles I hang in hooks on walls when I feel like it.
A great result, James. I think many do not realise just how SQ improvement can be made with some care speaker adjustments and sympathetic room treatment.
I did a similar exercise a few months ago, and using REW measurements as I made changes I could not only hear the improvements but also see the changes in the frequency response at my listening position. I started tuning the speaker postion to its optimum within my room constraints and then added temporary dampers(curtains, fleece throes) and removed or cover up reflective items(TV, pictures). If I hang old thick curtains at the 1st & 2nd reflection points this really improves imaging and definition. I have put 2 art acoustic panels on the wall I face when listening and this also helps definition. On the wall behind me I put up all my old CD shelving and CDs randomly spaced along with some other objects this also helped. From the REW measurements I could achieve more improvement but that would mean installing bass traps and that would be a step too far for SWMBO. The temporary curtains at the 1st, 2nd reflection points I put up on 1m poles I hang in hooks on walls when I feel like it.
Great stuff Adrian and thanks for sharing your acoustic room journey. I agree that much can be achieved with heavy curtains and just rearranging pictures and furniture. I will be measuring my room with EQ Wizard when I get round to it. But in the meantime I am placing acoustic panels where I think I need them most which will be at the first reflection points. However I have much bigger ideas going forward so this is just the start!:D
Great result for small outlay. Some of us spend thousands to try to achieve what you're achieving here. Are you going further with thicker panels or are you leaving things as they are.
Any chance of some pictures of size/positioning James.
That's interesting re bass traps James.
First panel made mate. Very happy with it so will continue this afternoon with next. I have some even bigger plans going forward which will mean a fair bit of construction and not only more panels but bigger as I have had the go ahead for Wall Art. Now I know how to construct these panels I have plans to go a lot further!:eyebrows:
I will put some pics up when they are up.
AJSki2fly
29-01-2023, 13:49
Great stuff Adrian and thanks for sharing your acoustic room journey. I agree that much can be achieved with heavy curtains and just rearranging pictures and furniture. I will be measuring my room with EQ Wizard when I get round to it. But in the meantime I am placing acoustic panels where I think I need them most which will be at the first reflection points. However I have much bigger ideas going forward so this is just the start!:D
It was recommended to me to not get too hung up on a flattish frequencies response, but to try and get the reverb figures across the Frequencies to below 300ms, I have managed to get everything to around this apart from below 200Hz which varies up to 400ms
So first finished panels are rolling of the production line....
These will be the first of many as I wanted to work out how to make effective panels first and then move on to larger and more ambitious stuff later. These are just for first reflection points in the critical positions but I do intend to produce a much larger one for the rear of the room and maybe two more if needed for the front of the room. Looking forward to assessing them this evening as they are rather better than the prototypes I constructed earlier in the week.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52655845502_bfe7316293_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oe1Ynd)35B7DC7A-773B-4BC7-B00C-8CA55480C6BA (https://flic.kr/p/2oe1Ynd) by /url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52656823628_0c907f040b_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)234910CF-A371-4898-B97E-0805825814D8 (https://flic.kr/p/2oe6Z8s) by Jy (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52656331611_1e117c2ce3_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oe4sSp)E411A1AC-66EC-42F5-8D76-571420391C29 (https://flic.kr/p/2oe4sSp) by , on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2oe6ZTA]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52656826188_30ce486def_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/y[/url)306698F6-94E4-42AA-A105-9CFF6687DEA9 (https://flic.kr/p/2oe6ZTA) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52656618304_45f565ca62_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oe5W6o)B1E12D6B-F645-486A-BEB9-EE4578252356 (https://flic.kr/p/2oe5W6o) by /url], on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2oe6ZQ9]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52656825988_159279fd58_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)F2F7F1EC-B61A-4A2C-B780-25A088A4BF8B (https://flic.kr/p/2oe6ZQ9) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
AJSki2fly
29-01-2023, 16:39
They look the business, but has your better half seen then or are they a surprise?:D
They look the business, but has your better half seen then or are they a surprise?:D
Yes they have been seen and approved, in fact she has requested more!:eek:
Can we see a picture with the curtains closed?
I want to see if they have any holes in them.... :ner:
Can we see a picture with the curtains closed?
I want to see if they have any holes in them.... :ner:
:lol:
brian2957
29-01-2023, 19:02
Panels look fab mate. They look as if they belong there. WAF off the scale then ;)
karma1967
29-01-2023, 19:26
nice one jimbo,i keep meaning to knock some up myself so i will be interested in your findings mate.
Panels look fab mate. They look as if they belong there. WAF off the scale then ;)
:eek::lol:
nice one jimbo,i keep meaning to knock some up myself so i will be interested in your findings mate.
Just having a good listen tonight with the finished panels and have noticed considerable difference to well known material on my system. Once I get my head round everything going on I will pop some comments down.
Wakefield Turntables
29-01-2023, 19:55
Jim, I had a couple of pictures up in my listening room sitting slightly higher and just opposite my speakers. I've now removed these and I'm enjoying more coherence to the soundstage and I would even say it appears wider and deeper. I initially thought I was hearing things but it appears to have had a positive result. I've downloaded REW on will be hopefully getting a microphone, what have you started!!!
Jim, I had a couple of pictures up in my listening room sitting slightly higher and just opposite my speakers. I've now removed these and I'm enjoying more coherence to the soundstage and I would even say it appears wider and deeper. I initially thought I was hearing things but it appears to have had a positive result. I've downloaded REW on will be hopefully getting a microphone, what have you started!!!
Brilliant Andy, to be honest I have been quite amazed at the difference treating the room with even just a bit of acoustic material. I will be adding more in future if I can hear a benefit. At the moment it is all producing great results and it all makes logical sense. The most profound differences are the soundstage,imaging and uplift in clarity.
If you can do it cheaply and don't go mad I think it a no brainer to improve the sound you are getting from your system. I have had bigger benefits from the acoustic treatment than all the sound isolation improvements I have done on my turntable and system.:)
After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.
1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.
2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.
You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.
3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.
4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.
I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light.:) So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?
As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.
The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.
All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.
One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.
AJSki2fly
30-01-2023, 16:42
After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.
1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.
2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.
You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.
3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.
4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.
I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light.:) So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?
As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.
The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.
All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.
One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.
Well explained James, sounds like you are getting good improvements. I think the key is to use room treatment up to the point where you are happy with what you are hearing, or you can go down the acoustics rabbit hole of flatness and blandness, if you get my meaning.
One thing I noticed when investigating is that Bass traps can be quiet tricky to deploy and get good results, a lot either don't go low enough or the have too large a frequency range which can dull everything down. I was recommended 2 panel Bass Traps with range limiter on the wall behind me, and one on the wall I was facing. But SWMBO balked at 0.6m by 1.2m panels 5.25' deep on the wall.
Well explained James, sounds like you are getting good improvements. I think the key is to use room treatment up to the point where you are happy with what you are hearing, or you can go down the acoustics rabbit hole of flatness and blandness, if you get my meaning.
One thing I noticed when investigating is that Bass traps can be quiet tricky to deploy and get good results, a lot either don't go low enough or the have too large a frequency range which can dull everything down. I was recommended 2 panel Bass Traps with range limiter on the wall behind me, and one on the wall I was facing. But SWMBO balked at 0.6m by 1.2m panels 5.25' deep on the wall.
I agree Adrian, Bass is a tricky one to sort if you want to get the right balance. From most of the articles I have read the average size listening room does not suffer too much with Bass as it is often filled with furniture and people! The problem always occurs with speakers that are two big in a small room, then your fighting for control.
brian2957
31-01-2023, 10:17
After a long session last night a few more observations for anyone who's interested.
1. Soundstage improvement. I have mentioned previously that I noticed a difference to the soundstage and that it was a tad bigger but actually it a little deeper with information in the recording now thrown even further back. Small but significant.
2. Clarity. This has been an intriguing one. Most folk, including myself when they here an improvement in clarity often say " I have heard things in the recording that I have never heard before" A bit like ultra resolution DACs and amps. All resolution and no soul. I never let myself get fooled by this as its a bit like turning up the treble years ago or similar to the VIVID setting on your TV.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.
You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.
3. Tonal quality. I was not expecting any difference here but the panels have also attenuated the midrange driver somewhat as it is at the top of the speakers and so directly in firing line with the acoustic panels. `I noticed midrange and lower midrange information now had more tonal quality, a bit more layering of harmonics and weight in the notes especially piano.
4. Imaging. This was significantly improved. As I mentioned on early listening I noticed distinct "untangling" of information in the recording. Where a singer double tracked themselves and sounded muddy I could now hear two distinct vocals in the mix.
I must mention that I am only at the beginning of my room treatment project and have much greater plans but I don't want and in fact would not be allowed to get away with just throwing large slabs of rock wool in all the corners and putting corrugated dispersion panels everywhere as this is a living room and not a "Man Cave". If I did have such a room I would move a bit quicker but because of the WAF factor I have to tread carefully. However some of my later plans have been given the green light.:) So I intend to improve the rear wall behind my listening position and there will be quite a number of more panels on the walls. I am not expecting huge gains from lots of further acoustic treatment but we will see?
As I have mentioned I have a large amount of damping in the room with 3 sofas and I have actually tried some rough Bass traps with no discernible improvement what so ever. My speakers currently don't have large bass drivers anyway and I would say are a bit bass shy so I don't think I need more in this area. The walls are still a bit echoey further down to the listening position and there is still a fair amount of reverberation in the room but the speaker area once the heavy curtains are drawn now sounds way more controlled.
The project will continue as I am now more than convinced room treatment is an essential factor in obtaining the best from your system `But it does change the sound. If you have put together a system to work in your room and fine tuned it to your liking, throwing in lots of room treatment does produce quite a significant difference which you may or may not like. Speakers that were once bright can suddenly sound rolled off. You can loose bass and like I say go too far and kill the sound you enjoy so best tread slowly and carefully.
All of the improvements I have had are however positive and have greatly enhanced my listening experience to the point I am rediscovering records in a new light and hearing shades of information that were previously hidden by the room reflections.
One last thing. I have recently seen an article that measured room reflection timings from different parts of the listening environment and they found that at each timing difference certain aspects of the music were detrimentally affected so the conclusion was to limit these reflections and the multiple timings reaching your ear and you will hear a much improved sound from your system and all that implies. In other words try and get you top end information in particular to stop bouncing round the room too much and aim to receive more directly from the tweeter. This all makes logical sense to me and it will be in my thoughts as I proceed forward with the room.
Great post again James. I really like the way you take time to explain the process and the benefits. This thread is rapidly turning into an excellent reference point for anyone who is planning to explore the area of room treatment. I will be using it myself in the coming months when I go down this road, albeit on a smaller scale :)
Firebottle
31-01-2023, 10:34
Clarity.
What I observed was more subtle than that. I will try and articulate what I mean my talking specifically about vocals.
You know when you are listening to a piece of music and you can hear the vocals but can't quite catch what the actual words are and then you change something in your system and you can hear suddenly clearly what is being sung, how they are singing it and the intonation etc. This is the improvement in clarity I observed in the system. Along with greater tonal quality, naturalness and simple believability.
That is brilliant and well described.
I have had gains like this specifically from two kit upgrades, firstly with the new speakers - Arke built Troel Gravesen Ekta Mk2, stunning performance.
Secondly when I finally removed the digital mush by installing a SOtM DDC into the USB output from the music server. I'm guessing the galvanic isolation may have been the reason for this improvement.
That is brilliant and well described.
I have had gains like this specifically from two kit upgrades, firstly with the new speakers - Arke built Troel Gravesen Ekta Mk2, stunning performance.
Secondly when I finally removed the digital mush by installing a SOtM DDC into the USB output from the music server. I'm guessing the galvanic isolation may have been the reason for this improvement.
I have always had a high regard for Troel Gravensen projects and I can quite believe his speaker designs if implemented well, which I am sure Jason does perfectly, are fabulous sounding. I have not heard any but would definitely put them on my list of speakers to aspire too. I have looked at many of his designs which include some very big beasts which would probably suit my room very well.:)
The SOtM digital gear has always been very highly regarded too so not surprised their DDC is doing good things in your system. Anything that brings greater clarity to a system is a winner in my book as long as it does not reduce other aspects of the sound you enjoy.
Great post again James. I really like the way you take time to explain the process and the benefits. This thread is rapidly turning into an excellent reference point for anyone who is planning to explore the area of room treatment. I will be using it myself in the coming months when I go down this road, albeit on a smaller scale :)
Cheers Brian, writing my thoughts down as I go through any process helps me as a reference point for the future as I quickly forget! :doh: but if it is of any use to anyone else that is always a bonus. Not always easy to articulate what is going on with your system sometimes and you need time and thought to work it through so I try and capture this on my blog.
After a few more evenings and racking up quite a few hours listening to the new room arrangement I have to admit a "schoolboy error"! Sometimes when your doing stuff with your system you make stupid mistakes like wiring amps up wrongly or forgetting to check overhang on cartridges. In my eagerness to optimise the potential of any room treatment I had moved the speakers back and forth a number of times BUT I forgot to put them back in their original position!:doh: They have a sweet spot which is 90-100cm from the front wall to the front baffle. I had moved them 150-200cm and used acoustic panels to ameliorate the effects. This as I found out yesterday was a big mistake.
When I moved the speakers back to their original position all the benefits I had been hearing jumped a number of notches in SQ. I checked the alignment of the acoustic panels using the mirror method and I could still see the speakers tweeters and midrange units perfectly clear. The improvement once again was quite amazing.
Next stage will be to add more panels as I have already heard benefits from using acoustic material further down the side walls. I am yet to try anything on the back wall as I don't have anything large enough currently that will suit. As I have mentioned there seems to be no downsides in addressing the acoustics of the room apart maybe aesthetics. Improvements are across the board and improve everything audiophiles look for. I have lost nothing but gained so much in every respect to the sound and information I am hearing from my system.
AJSki2fly
03-02-2023, 16:40
Sounds good to me James!:)
Sounds good to me James!:)
Cheers Adrian. Just shows how easy it is to make silly mistakes in the rush to try something new!:doh::)
AJSki2fly
04-02-2023, 07:37
Cheers Adrian. Just shows how easy it is to make silly mistakes in the rush to try something new!:doh::)
Yes James I did the stupid mistake thing yesterday. I wanted to try a different ohm setting on the phono in the new Krell pre-amp(new to me). So I unplugged it all took off the lid, changed the dip switches and put it all back. Powered up, but total silence [emoji33][emoji22] I struggled round the back to check the connections, still nothing so panic setting in I removed it again and checked inside, all good so put it all back, powered on. No, no, no nothing still. [emoji22][emoji22]
I was entering melt down phase and then suddenly noticed the Tape knob was pointing to tape not select. [emoji849] I must have moved it without realising, turned it to select and presto I had sound[emoji3]
Later I noticed a slight hum when not playing music but with had phono selected, not occurring on other inputs. Initially I thought I might have caused it but then I thought well it was not there when using the Sunilda phono stage. I sat down and had a cuppa tea and considered what might cause it. So I thought first this time rather than just unplug it all. Then a light bulb moment, the 90’s Hitachi tuner was sat on top of the Krell pre and but was not on, could it be it was causing the hum. I unplugged the mains to it and instantly silence, joy of joys, the Hitachi had power to its transformer and this was inducing the hum in the phono of the Krell phono. [emoji1]
So I have taken the tuner out of the system for know. The vinyl replay using the Krell phono is now very, very good, so I got there in the end[emoji23]
Yes James I did the stupid mistake thing yesterday. I wanted to try a different ohm setting on the phono in the new Krell pre-amp(new to me). So I unplugged it all took off the lid, changed the dip switches and put it all back. Powered up, but total silence [emoji33][emoji22] I struggled round the back to check the connections, still nothing so panic setting in I removed it again and checked inside, all good so put it all back, powered on. No, no, no nothing still. [emoji22][emoji22]
I was entering melt down phase and then suddenly noticed the Tape knob was pointing to tape not select. [emoji849] I must have moved it without realising, turned it to select and presto I had sound[emoji3]
Later I noticed a slight hum when not playing music but with had phono selected, not occurring on other inputs. Initially I thought I might have caused it but then I thought well it was not there when using the Sunilda phono stage. I sat down and had a cuppa tea and considered what might cause it. So I thought first this time rather than just unplug it all. Then a light bulb moment, the 90’s Hitachi tuner was sat on top of the Krell pre and but was not on, could it be it was causing the hum. I unplugged the mains to it and instantly silence, joy of joys, the Hitachi had power to its transformer and this was inducing the hum in the phono of the Krell phono. [emoji1]
So I have taken the tuner out of the system for know. The vinyl replay using the Krell phono is now very, very good, so I got there in the end[emoji23]
Great you managed to track down the gremlins and sort your system out! I bet the Krell amplification sounds sweet!
I had a slight hum/buzz on my system at Christmas which drove me mad. Tracked it down to bloody fairy lights plugged into the same ring main. :doh::)
AJSki2fly
04-02-2023, 08:57
Great you managed to track down the gremlins and sort your system out! I bet the Krell amplification sounds sweet!
I had a slight hum/buzz on my system at Christmas which drove me mad. Tracked it down to bloody fairy lights plugged into the same ring main. :doh::)
Don’t talk to me about fairy lights, my wife is an obsessive about them. You could land a small aircraft using the outside lights hung of the guttering and the trees are festooned. I’m sure I can here the transformers buzzing as I walk up the drive [emoji33][emoji51]
Don’t talk to me about fairy lights, my wife is an obsessive about them. You could land a small aircraft using the outside lights hung of the guttering and the trees are festooned. I’m sure I can here the transformers buzzing as I walk up the drive [emoji33][emoji51]
:lol:
brian2957
04-02-2023, 11:32
Good post again James. Just shows the importance of speaker positioning relative to listening position. Unfortunately due to a door I don't have much leeway with speaker positioning, although I haven't consciously or carefully adjusted speaker position to maximise SQ. Another job I need to take care of soon :)
Good post again James. Just shows the importance of speaker positioning relative to listening position. Unfortunately due to a door I don't have much leeway with speaker positioning, although I haven't consciously or carefully adjusted speaker position to maximise SQ. Another job I need to take care of soon :)
Sometimes having a larger room can bring about its own issues as you have more options where as in a small room you can be limited regarding speaker position and related listening position. With larger rooms the options mean you can try a lot more positioning and it took me about 6 months before I found there really was only one ideal speaker position where they worked well with the room acoustics. As I found, it is important to always remember this as any room treatment should only be added in relation to this position and not the other way round!:doh:
brian2957
04-02-2023, 12:44
I wouldn't have thought about maximising speaker position before adding room treatment but when I think about it, yes that rings true. I will be having a think about getting the most from my speakers in the coming weeks, then considering what to add in the way of room treatment after that.
Wakefield Turntables
05-02-2023, 17:21
Well, I've been very slowly messing about with my room. I banished all my pictures with a glass covering, I have to say that things do sound better. I'm always sceptical of such things but the soundstage just sounds a lot better. Difficult to pin down. I've had the same kit now for a number of years and you just know when things sound better or take a tumble and sounds worse. So, for me it's probably going to be some towels and sheets draped around the place, maybe at the sides of the speakers.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the effects of thick curtains sitting behind forward ported cabs? I have a thin bling sitting in front of my window which probably does next to bugger all with respects to reflections pinging around of the glass. I'm thinking big old thick curtains may work as a decent reflection damper?
It is quite a change Andy once you start treating the room with acoustic material and I found it took sometime for me to work out what had changed. Its a subtle but noticeable effect but so far I have found no downsides.
Without committing to any proper acoustic materials it is a good idea to try stuff you have lying around. Cushions, duvets and thick curtains are all good candidates to start with and even a blind drawn down over a window will. stop some first reflections. Furniture and carpet make a big difference and all add up!
However when you commit to making a few panels I can help point you in the right direction for very little money! See how you get on with the other stuff first. I would concentrate on first reflections first, they are the biggest bang for bucks!:)
Wakefield Turntables
05-02-2023, 18:16
A couple of quick bodge jobs. And no before you ask I'm not trying to dry the towels with the valve amps :lol:.
https://i.ibb.co/5BsrY8G/IMG-0319.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/VxK1bj8/IMG-0315.jpg
I've rolled the speakers back another couple of inches. I've also done my own school boy error in the ear position is not the same height as central speaker cone position. Central cone position in the Tannoys is 91cm from the ground, I tend to listen in a semi-slouched position, my ear height is approx 85cm from the ground, 6cm difference, so I'll be raising my listening chair with some castors. I'm already sitting up and I can tell that I'm missing out on a better soundstage experience. That's me just being bloody lazy!
Wakefield Turntables
05-02-2023, 18:26
pizzo tweeters??
No just Batpure (sic)?? tweeters from fleabay.
Sorry Jim, thread drift.
https://www.musicoff.com/musica-e-cultura/ascoltare-musica-hi-fi-consumer/taket-batpure-an-affordable-way-to-upgrade-your-hi-fi-system/
No just Batpure (sic)?? tweeters from fleabay.
Sorry Jim, thread drift.
https://www.musicoff.com/musica-e-cultura/ascoltare-musica-hi-fi-consumer/taket-batpure-an-affordable-way-to-upgrade-your-hi-fi-system/
yup. i have a set somewhere... think they are pizzo
It does look a bit like your just drying some towels mate.:lol:
It does look a bit like your just drying some towels mate.:lol:
Of course he bloody is.
These guys were very useful moving another panel into place.:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52677474090_aebce0c87c_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ofVPMU)2F83F4C8-51B5-41D4-BC23-01AEF147D56D (https://flic.kr/p/2ofVPMU) by , on Flickr
brian2957
08-02-2023, 19:03
These guys were very useful moving another panel into place.:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52677474090_aebce0c87c_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ofVPMU)2F83F4C8-51B5-41D4-BC23-01AEF147D56D (https://flic.kr/p/2ofVPMU) by , on Flickr
Jumbo and Jimbo :eyebrows: Nice panel BTW. Size and position relative to speakers please. In otherwards piccies or it didn't appen :D
So this afternoon I thought I best fire up the digital system which is a rag bag assortment of cheap as sh*t gear thrown together with a bunch of wires and cables that are equally cheap as sh*t. The whole set up cost £125 + cables so beyond budget system build.
Sat here this afternoon after warming it up for an hour or so and it sounded almost acceptable as long as you fed it with top notch mastered stuff.
I wonder what my guest will make of it tomorrow evening?:eek::sofa:
brian2957
09-02-2023, 16:53
Yup, this will be interesting :)
Yup, this will be interesting :)
I have also reconfigured the room mate and will post pics and full analysis over the weekend after tomorrows session.:eek:
brian2957
09-02-2023, 17:25
Look forward to it James :)
Wakefield Turntables
09-02-2023, 19:39
yep, nice to see how you've been getting on.
So I had an interesting and enjoyable evening with my guest on Friday. I had decided to reconfigure the room without the sofa between the speakers as I know this is not considered the "Audiophile" thing to do. During the day I had been evaluating privately what I thought regarding the removal of the sofa and my conclusions were that it had some positive but also negative effects. When you walk into my listening room with it in place you can just tell the extra damping factor so it is not insignificant to remove it.
On the plus side my bass gained better definition, articulation and punch but the downside was a general harder sound to the music in the room and a more forward presentation that could sound too much especially with digital material. I popped the sofa back in last night and I think I prefer this set up as I am not particularly a bass head and like more clarity and control in the midrange and top end where I believe all the action should be. But going forward it was considered that I need to add a lot more treatment to the walls which was what I was planning anyway with about 5-6 more acoustic panels lined up.
We listened to my ultra budget digital set up first and to be honest it sounded ok on well mastered material but it was improved significantly once we removed a whole load of electrical noise from the system. I did know that any spurious electrical noise was damaging to digital audio and it is something a lot of manufacturers have been investigating and combating over the last few years. Believe me do anything you can to remove as much of this from your digital system as possible and you will be amazed.
Vinyl took over in the second half of the evening and for me it elevated the listening experience significantly as it had better soundstage, imaging, macro and micro detail, resolution, transparency, naturalness........ I will leave that there.:)
Good to have another pair of ears listen to the system but always very difficult to make lots of comments because they do not know what is contributing to what ie amplifier, speaker, cable , cartridge...... which bit is influencing the sound most. Impossible to tell unless you know all the equipment intimately. And secondly your system is tuned to you ears and liking in your environment so you may hear it differently to them. At best a session like the other evening can enlighten you to each others taste in music and only touch on their taste in equipment as it is so difficult for them to get their ears/head round the room and equipment. You can only make general comments of the overall big picture/sound as it were.
So many times I have borrowed equipment off friends and listened to it my room and because it is hooked up to a different system in a different room it will often sound very different to how they hear it in their system/room. It may not play nicely with your kit or it may sound superb but obviously very personal taste.
The room set up for the listening session without the sofa.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52684367059_9045ff349d_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ogx9Qc)8BB4CD52-7EF8-4BAE-8B4E-842DD907E95F_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2ogx9Qc) by , on Flickr
Nice write up Jim. Well done!
What were the sources of electrical noise that you removed? SMPSs?
By the way, I love the look of your living/listening room (but I have to say the appearance of those hawser-like speaker cables would annoy me greatly).
brian2957
12-02-2023, 13:53
Glad you enjoyed your friends visit James. I had a feeling the subject of significantly more room treatment wolud have come up. I also had a feeling that the sofa would make a return between the speakers because I thought removing it would have 'hardened' the sound. How did you remove the electrical noise from the system BTW?
Great post and great photo as ever mate :)
We listened to my ultra budget digital set up first and to be honest it sounded ok on well mastered material but it was improved significantly once we removed a whole load of electrical noise from the system. I did know that any spurious electrical noise was damaging to digital audio and it is something a lot of manufacturers have been investigating and combating over the last few years. Believe me do anything you can to remove as much of this from your digital system as possible and you will be amazed.
what did this involve? I've seen plenty of foo solutions to what is usually a non-existent problem. Is this something different?
I was using a linear PSU but no galvanic isolation anywhere in the rest of the digital set up. It was all on the floor near the mains plugs so was probably being bombarded with electrical noise. The device, that unfortunately I cannot mention, simply took away a huge amount of mains noise and probably RF noise. The shocking difference has made me now keen to eliminate as much electrical noise getting into my digital set up. I know there are some cheap and very expensive options but I think they should definitely be considered.
Noise pollution seems to be a constant issue with digital audio especially when using separate DAC, DDC and server etc hooked up with a variety of cables and different connectors. I thought I understood trying to eliminate jitter and electrical noise within the digital chain of equipment but did not appreciate just how much the delicate digital signals and equipment can be affected by external digital noise. I would say even trying to use the best possible set ups for digital playback even with galvanic isolation you will not be immune to external digital noise and addressing this can have profound and huge effects on the performance and SQ of your digital system.
A pic of my ultra budget digital set up. Top of the pile Justboom DAC which uses a Burr Brown chip, next down Douk Audio DDC reclocker and At bottom Chinese Linear PSU. These are all hooked up to a MacBook Air using Audirvana.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52697857814_ffe56cf569_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ohJiaq)AA05EDA3-3BF6-4B86-BAC5-AA07DE4BE9D5 (https://flic.kr/p/2ohJiaq) by , on Flickr
Have to say I have not personally found that to be the case at all but my digital set up is very simple, just a CD transport into a DAC, signal cables are routed away from power cables and none of the boxes are sited close to the mains outlets or the power strip.
I would just be very wary of anyone claiming to have magic solutions to things like jitter and noise, there are a lot of con-men operating in this area of hi-fi (although I'm sure some of them do genuinely believe in their products). If they can't offer hard evidence that it does something then it almost certainly doesn't do anything beyond a placebo effect.
Hans Beekhuyzen in particular is to be avoided, almost everything he says about digital audio is factually incorrect.
Have to say I have not personally found that to be the case at all but my digital set up is very simple, just a CD transport into a DAC, signal cables are routed away from power cables and none of the boxes are sited close to the mains outlets or the power strip.
I would just be very wary of anyone claiming to have magic solutions to things like jitter and noise, there are a lot of con-men operating in this area of hi-fi (although I'm sure some of them do genuinely believe in their products). If they can't offer hard evidence that it does something then it almost certainly doesn't do anything beyond a placebo effect.
Hans Beekhuyzen in particular is to be avoided, almost everything he says about digital audio is factually incorrect.
My only absolute evaluation and recommendation regarding anything I use or have discovered is through direct use in my system and my own subjective listening.
As you know Martin the net is awash with theories, "facts" and recommendations of equipment based on measurements, technical abilities or simply other peoples listening experience with a piece of kit in their system and audio environment. This maybe a good start for many of us but I always reserve judgement until I get whatever piece of kit I use and it has been hooked up to my system.
FWIW I found my digital system improved with each step I have taken.
1. A move from CD to FBA.
2. Use of Audirvana on a laptop using SSD.
3. Bypassing laptop DAC to then use off board DAC.
4. Reclock digital data with DDC before it gets to DAC.
5. Use of Linear PSU to power both DAC and DDC.
Each step of the way was marked with an improvement in SQ. Of course it could all be in my imagination:lol:
I have pondered "better" DACs , better cables etc but I would soon run very quickly run into the law of diminishing returns and in fact almost any change /addition would cost more than the whole of my digital set up. If I were seriously thinking that digital would become a significant day to day part of my system I may considerer other options but to be honest I have heard mega bucks gear and for me although technically they are fantastic and measure superbly they still sound err...digital.
My only absolute evaluation and recommendation regarding anything I use or have discovered is through direct use in my system and my own subjective listening.
As you know Martin the net is awash with theories, "facts" and recommendations of equipment based on measurements, technical abilities or simply other peoples listening experience with a piece of kit in their system and audio environment. This maybe a good start for many of us but I always reserve judgement until I get whatever piece of kit I use and it has been hooked up to my system.
FWIW I found my digital system improved with each step I have taken.
1. A move from CD to FBA.
2. Use of Audirvana on a laptop using SSD.
3. Bypassing laptop DAC to then use off board DAC.
4. Reclock digital data with DDC before it gets to DAC.
5. Use of Linear PSU to power both DAC and DDC.
Each step of the way was marked with an improvement in SQ. Of course it could all be in my imagination:lol:
I have pondered "better" DACs , better cables etc but I would soon run very quickly run into the law of diminishing returns and in fact almost any change /addition would cost more than the whole of my digital set up. If I were seriously thinking that digital would become a significant day to day part of my system I may considerer other options but to be honest I have heard mega bucks gear and for me although technically they are fantastic and measure superbly they still sound err...digital.
well it is true we can never escape our own subjective experience no matter what the fact of the matter is :)
I had a valve/vinyl/horn fanatic here a few months back, not someone I have ever met before. His system and mine are diametrically opposed in every respect.
His comment on my system was 'It sounds so refined!' No mention of it sounding 'digital'.
Reclocking boxes are an odd one since the DAC (unless it is quite an old design) will just reclock the signal again so it's hard to see what the benefit can be.
Anyway, sorry, please carry on I won't interrupt again.
well it is true we can never escape our own subjective experience no matter what the fact of the matter is :)
I had a valve/vinyl/horn fanatic here a few months back, not someone I have ever met before. His system and mine are diametrically opposed in every respect.
His comment on my system was 'It sounds so refined!' No mention of it sounding 'digital'.
Reclocking boxes are an odd one since the DAC (unless it is quite an old design) will just reclock the signal again so it's hard to see what the benefit can be.
Anyway, sorry, please carry on I won't interrupt again.
Not at all Martin, that's the nature of a forum, all opinions are valid. I think everything in audio should be questioned especially when your spending cold hard cash!
The reclocker just ensures the package of bits from the server are clocked very precisely before getting to the DAC who's clock may not be up to much. In other words the clocker has a better clock than the DAC so it does not have to work too hard once the clocked package arrives at its door.
Translating this into a listening experience of course is subjective but it definitely sounds smoother with a better soundstage and better instrument separation/imaging with the DDC in place. I am in the great position in that my DAC is very responsive to anything that can help it out so the clocker and LPS definitely allow it to perform at a higher level than on its own.
If you have more expensive digital gear with better more accurate clocks and built in LPS PSU and galvanic isolation etc then they should perform better and maybe sound better. I don't know?
If anyone is interested in current prices for my digital set up?
Justboom DAC is £35 + case
Duok audio DDC is about £60
BRZHifi LPS can be had for £45 off aliexpress
Silly money compared to almost any other digital system on the market.
BUT you do need a laptop which I use as a server for file and metadata storage.
Cables were all free apart from one power cable which was £15. I have a feeling my USB cable is not up to much so if anyone can suggest a good USB-C - USB-B cable for connecting my laptop to DDC I would be grateful.
If you have more expensive digital gear with better more accurate clocks and built in LPS PSU and galvanic isolation etc then they should perform better and maybe sound better. I don't know?
Nope, Topping E30 £140 new powered by a mobile phone charger. :D - honestly though listening right now and really it is flawless as far as I can tell. If I thought I could do better then I would. You will have to come over for a listen sometime, see if it sounds digital to you, and if so, point out to me the specifics of that.
Maybe I just have cloth ears or am undiscriminating - I don't think so but obviously I can't be certain about that.
Nice AK4493 chip in that E30 which I think was developed to give a type of R2R sound and I think it uses the same XU208 XMOS USB chip that I use in the Duok DDC. It gets great reviews and I have no doubt it sounds great maybe even better with an LPS.
I should really make an effort and pop up to you and bring my digital set up and we could have a fun bake-off and you can get to try an LPS and DDC hooked put to your DAC and maybe hear the difference.
I will get in touch soon Martin and maybe we can arrange a date?
Nice AK4493 chip in that E30 which I think was developed to give a type of R2R sound and I think it uses the same XU208 XMOS USB chip that I use in the Duok DDC. It gets great reviews and I have no doubt it sounds great maybe even better with an LPS.
I should really make an effort and pop up to you and bring my digital set up and we could have a fun bake-off and you can get to try an LPS and DDC hooked put to your DAC and maybe hear the difference.
I will get in touch soon Martin and maybe we can arrange a date?
Yes we should do that, I have not tried one of these DDC things - I'm afraid I am far too sceptical to go to the effort to buy one to try out. I've had a listen to systems using them but not done any comparisons. I have an LPS I could use for the DAC but I have just not felt the need to experiment since it all sounds so good anyway.
I do have another DAC (Soncoz) that uses LPS (two of them in fact) but to me it sounds identical to the Topping and the Topping looks cuter so I left that in the system.
Been playing with speaker "toe in" this evening. `I had not messed around too much with it previous to putting in some room treatment but now the effect of toeing in the speakers has a much larger effect than before and is extremely responsive to the slightest angle but what is more interesting is how the recording are revealing hidden micro details as well as bigger effects like soundstage layering.
Keeping the speakers facing head on gives a huge sound stage but some detail and imaging is lost even with the first reflection panels. But get the toe in spot on and all sorts of magical things happen. Bass becomes more even and less diffused, Imaging in the soundstage is fantastic. Depth of recorded information is easily heard.
Recordings now sound almost like putting headphones on where you can pin point everything and hear tiny details in the landscape.
I have learnt so much about speaker interaction with the room over the last few months and still keep discovering more. The information and the way the system now sounds is so much greater than before, I would suggest it may even be more significant than buying a new amplifier or cartridge or at least on a par!
It will be interesting when all the acoustic panels have been manufactured and installed and what further sonic discoveries are to be revealed. Waiting for more material at the moment and we need to find some more decorative stuff but even the first few panels have had a very significant effect. Eventually I may try some bass traps if I can work out how to build something that is WAF friendly.:lol:
Indeed and there is toe out and toe up too to play with.
Indeed and there is toe out and toe up too to play with.
:lol:
I think I have found my next amplifier with 400 watt output so should drive the Heco speakers with very little effort. Amazing price which makes me think some of us audio nuts have been paying over the odds for our gear?
Not sure what the echo button will do to my room acoustics however...??:doh:
https://electromarket.co.uk/fenton-av440-hifi-amplifier-with-bluetooth-media-player-400w
brian2957
21-02-2023, 21:27
Aye jobs a good 'un there. Do I want one? Let me think about it...Mmm no :D
Firebottle
22-02-2023, 07:33
Ultimate exaggeration. I have sympathy for people that believe this tosh.
Likelihood no more than your current amplifier in real RMS power. Power supply is a 15V adapter, if it was 400W output then it would need to be rated at 27A at least.
The maximum rating I have seen on a adapter brick is about 5A :rolleyes:
Ultimate exaggeration. I have sympathy for people that believe this tosh.
Likelihood no more than your current amplifier in real RMS power. Power supply is a 15V adapter, if it was 400W output then it would need to be rated at 27A at least.
The maximum rating I have seen on a adapter brick is about 5A :rolleyes:
I would be concerned to plug it in!
AJSki2fly
22-02-2023, 07:58
Here you go get two of these, stick them in a box, connect up to psu and pre amp, and two 4 ohm speakers and stand at the back of the room. 400w of pure hifi per channel [emoji23]
you might want some emergency equipment at hand, fire extinguisher, swabs for bleeding ears, and spare speakers. [emoji23][emoji23]
https://purifi-audio.com/vare/1et400a/
walpurgis
22-02-2023, 08:20
There again. How much power do you need? My 4 watt amp goes surprisingly loud! :)
Power is nothing without control.
I have been looking at Power amplifiers closer to Geoffs as my speakers are very efficient at 92dB so I think something pretty low powered and Class A would drive them nicely. My current Croft 7 at only 45 watts output is plenty enough. I have tried some much more powerful amps and they did not actually sound any better, more control in the bass maybe but lost out elsewhere.
I certainly won't be considering any monster wattage Class D amplification as they struggle in the midrange and I am not so sure they sound very natural. Great for pumping up da bass but for playing music..??
walpurgis
22-02-2023, 13:28
My little TPA 3116 Class D mini amp puts a smile on my face when I rig it up. Less than twenty quid from China and sounds very musical, claimed to be 50 watts, but shown on test to be 18 watts RMS. Everybody should have one as a back-up! :)
AJSki2fly
22-02-2023, 16:05
There again. How much power do you need? My 4 watt amp goes surprisingly loud! :)
Are you using small speakers? :D
My little TPA 3116 Class D mini amp puts a smile on my face when I rig it up. Less than twenty quid from China and sounds very musical, claimed to be 50 watts, but shown on test to be 18 watts RMS. Everybody should have one as a back-up! :)
I have a little class D amp (can't remember the make or model number), which I used with the TV, powering audio into a pair of B&W DM2a speakers with success. Now I use a Quad 520f amplifier, which at 135W/channel is probably overkill.
I have just dug out my class D amp. It's an Amptastic Mini-T amplifier.
https://hifipig.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/amptastic.jpg
Received rave reviews at the time for such a small and modest design (it's only 10W/channel) - and it only cost £60.
It has since been updated to the Amptastic Mini-1, with improved quality components used inside and improved cosmetics outside, but now is double the price.
https://www.hifipig.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/amp2_300.jpg
I now know 5 people who have got these T amps:)
brian2957
23-02-2023, 18:54
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185767289193?hash=item2b4097e169:g:RAUAAOSwmflj4mi O&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA
I now know 5 people who have got these T amps:)
had a t-amp too once. not sure which one it was tho. think it was black actually. surprising how good they can be with sensitive speakers
had a t-amp too once. not sure which one it was tho. think it was black actually. surprising how good they can be with sensitive speakers
I think they were very popular way before the latest Class D amps came on the scene.
Plenty of quality Class D amps available on this site. Some monster power for fairly good price.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifier/audiophonics-hpa-s400et-amplifier-class-d-stereo-purifi-2x400w-4-ohm-p-14393.html
Plenty of quality Class D amps available on this site. Some monster power for fairly good price.
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifier/audiophonics-hpa-s400et-amplifier-class-d-stereo-purifi-2x400w-4-ohm-p-14393.html
Were I after a modern class D amplifier, the one you cite would interest me: reasonable price (£1,000); plenty of power (though I would regard it as 200W into 8 Ohm); excellent distortion figures, and the option of balanced inputs.
Pigmy Pony
23-02-2023, 20:36
I now know 5 people who have got these T amps:)
Make that 6 James ;)
I too have an Amptastic Mini-1 in my second system, which I bought from a fellow forum member for about £80 iirc. It has been running 24/7 for the last five years and does an excellent job. As of last week I replaced it with something else, but I won't be getting rid, it's a handy back-up which takes up no storage space :)
Make that 6 James ;)
I too have an Amptastic Mini-1 in my second system, which I bought from a fellow forum member for about £80 iirc. It has been running 24/7 for the last five years and does an excellent job. As of last week I replaced it with something else, but I won't be getting rid, it's a handy back-up which takes up no storage space :)
Agreed - which is why I have kept mine (a Mini-T); so make that 7. ;)
Well it looks like they were rather popular little amps and indeed the amp I am looking for is a sort of back up. Maybe I should consider one :lol:
Pigmy Pony
24-02-2023, 15:01
Well it looks like they were rather popular little amps and indeed the amp I am looking for is a sort of back up. Maybe I should consider one :lol:
Definitely worth having as a back up. And if your speakers are reasonably sensitive they will go pretty loud. I used mine for a short time into my big 99dB Zu floorstanders and they went to neighbour-bothering levels no problem.
I remember now hearing one in a system a few years back and was surprised at the size of the thing.
I already have 5 amps as a backup solution. I should thin the spares down a bit…
I already have 5 amps as a backup solution. I should thin the spares down a bit…
What do you have as backs ups Kevin?
I think you mentioned you now use a 686 for power amp currently?
I have a 686 for daily business.
I have the following as back up:
Kenwood KA-3020SE
Arcam Alpha 8R
Arcam Alpha 8p (Starting to have my doubts about owning this one ;) )
Arcam Alpha 9P
Arcam Alpha 10P
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