View Full Version : Jimbos Audio ramblings
So to get anywhere near what the original Master Tape sounded like you need first pressings and then there would be some variation between the first thousand pressings and then onwards with a gradual decline in quality as the stampers wear out.
Determining the providence of any of the Master Tapes used at any point in time by any production company re issuing is never mentioned and probably only known by a few as I presume there must be some sequential number used to determine first, second, third generation. etc.
Early 1980s CDs usually best bet for being close to an early master. The tended to push the boat out in those days. But there's no real way to tell other than listening.
They do have the advantage that they are not remastered with a ton of limiting/compression so the dynamic range of the original tape is preserved.
People will cotton on to this eventually I think and prices will go though the roof as it's the closest you'll get to owning exactly what they laid down in the studio
Early 1980s CDs usually best bet for being close to an early master. The tended to push the boat out in those days. But there's no real way to tell other than listening.
They do have the advantage that they are not remastered with a ton of limiting/compression so the dynamic range of the original tape is preserved.
People will cotton on to this eventually I think and prices will go though the roof as it's the closest you'll get to owning exactly what they laid down in the studio
Only problem using a digital copy or mastering from Tape to digital will the EQ used and any other variations the engineers mastering at the time think needs to be done in the transfer?
Just taking DSOTM for instance - there has been so many reissues both on vinyl and digital and none of them sound the same and I expect none of them sound as good as the original early first pressings.
Only problem using a digital copy or mastering from Tape to digital will the EQ used and any other variations the engineers mastering at the time think needs to be done in the transfer?
I don't know. There's no need to do anything except make a straight digital copy the tape but that doesn't mean they didn't cock about with it. Just one of those things we'll never know unless you can speak to someone who was there.
Just taking DSOTM for instance - there has been so many reissues both on vinyl and digital and none of them sound the same and I expect none of them sound as good as the original early first pressings.
I don't know how early a pressing I have heard. Back when at school had friends who were the youngest of 7, 8, 9 siblings and they had 'originals' of a lot of classic albums including Floyd and the later Beatles albums. But their equipment was not good enough to be judging variations between pressings on and neither is my memory.
All the later re-issues are probably remastered and even remixed as well so no wonder they sound different. What's the earliest DSOTM pressing you have heard?
I had a UK first pressing back at home which I bought about 1975. Played to death on crap equipment so can't vouch for its sound quality but I do remember it sounding very good. Spacious and dynamic. Everything sounded extremely clear but then again my ears were 40 years or so younger!
This ended up being blu tacked to my bedroom wall after some serious abuse! I then bough another copy which may have been a 2nd or 3rd generation pressing but don't know what happened to this when I sold and gave away most of my vinyl.
For some reason I kept my copy of The Wall which I still have today and it is absolutely mint. It plays super clean and perfect condition sleeves. I bought this the day it was released so definitely first generation. Now worth £200.
One of the reasons I don't play my vinyl anymore is the value of some of them! Anything released after about 1992 seems to be worth a bomb and I bought a lot of records around that time, all on the day or week of release.
Hopefully I won't ever need the money but you never know.
One of the reasons I don't play my vinyl anymore is the value of some of them! Anything released after about 1992 seems to be worth a bomb and I bought a lot of records around that time, all on the day or week of release.
Hopefully I won't ever need the money but you never know.
Very little vinyl released between 1992 and 2010 so copies of anything are few and far between, Value has rocketed unless they reissue. And because they are from a digital recording quality can be guaranteed the same.
Pigmy Pony
08-05-2023, 16:58
One of the reasons I don't play my vinyl anymore is the value of some of them! Anything released after about 1992 seems to be worth a bomb and I bought a lot of records around that time, all on the day or week of release.
Hopefully I won't ever need the money but you never know.
Post 1992, what music are we talking about? 90s were pretty much Brit Pop and dance music, and little else iirc.
Very little vinyl released between 1992 and 2010 so copies of anything are few and far between, Value has rocketed unless they reissue. And because they are from a digital recording quality can be guaranteed the same.
they won't all necessarily be digital recordings but more than likely there will be a digital copy of the studio master even if they were recorded in analogue.
Some bands were still insisting on analogue recording way into the digital era - like 'Guns n Roses' for example.
Even so the originals from that era still seem to fetch a lot more than re-issues.
No not the wooly type. :)
I decided yesterday to evaluate a few speaker jumper cables I had lying around to see if I could hear a difference or not. Certainly any of the cable jumpers sounded better than the gold plated metal jumpers I had that came standard with the speakers.
So here are the cables I used.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52899151964_ef04083369_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oAvYUd)F66AEA99-B598-4684-9906-45DFAB26A0CD (https://flic.kr/p/2oAvYUd) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]J, on Flickr
From the left is a 5 inch length of Western Electric NOS 16GA which is tinned copper, then some heavy multi strand copper cable and the last terminated cable was some fairly ordinary twisted copper cable.
I am not going to make a meal of this quick review as we are only talking about 5 inches of jumper cable here so really what difference can they make? Well to my surprise they made a huge difference which was bonkers.:eek:
It is not really worth talking about the heavy multi strand cable or terminated cables as they just sounded dull and flat and squashed the dynamics but the Western electric 16GA was stunning by comparison.
The Western Electric 16GA had everything. Incredible detail, presence , soundstage, imaging, tonal quality, transparency and thrilling dynamic expansion. Bonkers considering its age. It looks like a piece of mains household wiring cable from a scrap heap but what a difference it makes to the sound. Considering all the electronics and all the equipment up stream of this cable it just seems crazy that this last 5 inches of cable can make any difference.
If you have speakers that use jumpers I strongly recommend trying the Western electric cable as jumpers as it is a fabulous bit of wire!:)
I am now going to try some interconnects which are also manufactured from tinned copper and compare them against a range of RCA ICs I have here and will post up my thoughts. Should be interesting.
brian2957
15-05-2023, 11:14
No not the wooly type. :)
I decided yesterday to evaluate a few speaker jumper cables I had lying around to see if I could hear a difference or not. Certainly any of the cable jumpers sounded better than the gold plated metal jumpers I had that came standard with the speakers.
So here are the cables I used.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52899151964_ef04083369_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oAvYUd)F66AEA99-B598-4684-9906-45DFAB26A0CD (https://flic.kr/p/2oAvYUd) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]J, on Flickr
From the left is a 5 inch length of Western Electric NOS 16GA which is tinned copper, then some heavy multi strand copper cable and the last terminated cable was some fairly ordinary twisted copper cable.
I am not going to make a meal of this quick review as we are only talking about 5 inches of jumper cable here so really what difference can they make? Well to my surprise they made a huge difference which was bonkers.:eek:
It is not really worth talking about the heavy multi strand cable or terminated cables as they just sounded dull and flat and squashed the dynamics but the Western electric 16GA was stunning by comparison.
The Western Electric 16GA had everything. Incredible detail, presence , soundstage, imaging, tonal quality, transparency and thrilling dynamic expansion. Bonkers considering its age. It looks like a piece of mains household wiring cable from a scrap heap but what a difference it makes to the sound. Considering all the electronics and all the equipment up stream of this cable it just seems crazy that this last 5 inches of cable can make any difference.
If you have speakers that use jumpers I strongly recommend trying the Western electric cable as jumpers as it is a fabulous bit of wire!:)
I am now going to try some interconnects which are also manufactured from tinned copper and compare them against a range of RCA ICs I have here and will post up my thoughts. Should be interesting.Everything matters mate [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-A135F using Tapatalk
Everything matters mate [emoji6]
Sent from my SM-A135F using Tapatalk
It does seem so. Hard to believe that a small amount of cable can make such a difference.
Lawrence001
15-05-2023, 11:38
I know a few people use Dueland tinned copper for both speaker cable and interconnects so I wonder how it compares to the WE. There's probably already a review online somewhere.
the w e is tin plated i think and may well be rather exxpensive to find nowadays.
the w e is tin plated i think and may well be rather exxpensive to find nowadays.
It is tin coated copper Grant and I think the copper they used back then was very high quality.
The Duelund 16guage tinned copper wire in cotton and oil rates very highly against the Western Electric.
Lovely sounding stuff,
Fiddly to make up, but great in that its recommended NOT to terminate it and run it bare wire.
Have a couple of lengths on mid and tweeter duties here, never think about speaker cable nowadays.
Cheap, easily available and very highly spoken of.
Worth a punt.
The Duelund 16guage tinned copper wire in cotton and oil rates very highly against the Western Electric.
Lovely sounding stuff,
Fiddly to make up, but great in that its recommended NOT to terminate it and run it bare wire.
Have a couple of lengths on mid and tweeter duties here, never think about speaker cable nowadays.
Cheap, easily available and very highly spoken of.
Worth a punt.
May have a look at obtaining some of that and run complete speaker cable lengths. Cheers Gary.
Found this article reviewing tinned copper cables. Some of his observations are very similar to my own. Must investigate further!
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/duelund-coherent-audio-dca-series-cables-part-1/
One of the reasons I don't play my vinyl anymore is the value of some of them! Anything released after about 1992 seems to be worth a bomb and I bought a lot of records around that time, all on the day or week of release.
Hopefully I won't ever need the money but you never know.
I probably have dozens of LPs in my collection that are each valued at £100 or more. But as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant: I buy records to play, not as an investment.
I probably have dozens of LPs in my collection that are each valued at £100 or more. But as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant: I buy records to play, not as an investment.I play all mine, even the ones worth £200-£300.
rmcin626
15-05-2023, 17:07
I play all mine, even the ones worth £200-£300.
Me too
I certainly don't buy records for an investment, they all get played regularly and I don't particularly look after the covers but I do take great care of the records themselves.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2023, 17:58
Jim,
With regards to your speaker jumper cables. I've got a whole system wired full of the stuff, have a read...
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46516-My-quot-REAL-SOUND-quot-experiment&highlight=REAL+SOUND+system
Jim,
With regards to your speaker jumper cables. I've got a whole system wired full of the stuff, have a read...
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46516-My-quot-REAL-SOUND-quot-experiment&highlight=REAL+SOUND+system
Interesting going back and reading that Andy. I am very tempted to get the Dueland cable to rewire my speakers. Not expensive punt to do either at £8 a metre.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2023, 19:21
It's great fun. It might be worthwhile just buying a cheap second pair speakers, maybe something that you fancy trying and then rewiring? The Celestion 15's are not the best speakers in the world but I like them! I've always fancied some of the bigger Spendors or IMF speakers from the 70's, but that's maybe another system!!!!!!
I probably have dozens of LPs in my collection that are each valued at £100 or more. But as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant: I buy records to play, not as an investment.
I've never bought one as an investment they have just turned into one. Like my numbered limited edition Smashing Pumpkins LP I bought the week it came out. Didn't even notice the number thing until I got it home and put it on the turntable. And thought what a load of bollocks. But value now almost a monkey.
Back when vinyl almost vanished around turn of the century I did wonder if at some point there would be a resurgence because it was always cool unlike CD or tape which never were.
I bought about three hundred s/h LPs in that period all cost between a quid and a fiver, but only because - ironically - that was at that time the cheapest way of getting the music I wanted. Never bought with a view to future value.
Most of them now got on CD too so no need to play them anymore.
I've never bought one as an investment they have just turned into one. Like my numbered limited edition Smashing Pumpkins LP I bought the week it came out. Didn't even notice the number thing until I got it home and put it on the turntable. And thought what a load of bollocks. But value now almost a monkey.
Back when vinyl almost vanished around turn of the century I did wonder if at some point there would be a resurgence because it was always cool unlike CD or tape which never were.
I bought about three hundred s/h LPs in that period all cost between a quid and a fiver, but only because - ironically - that was at that time the cheapest way of getting the music I wanted. Never bought with a view to future value.
Most of them now got on CD too so no need to play them anymore.
Wish I had the foresight to have bought vinyl back then but in 2000 I was not even the slightest interested in vinyl. I am now seeking out great suff I liked back in my youth and its costing me a fortune. Even back 10 years ago when I started buying vinyl I could pick up most of what I wanted dirt cheap but today everything good is priced astronomically.
Interestingly I bought a couple of copies of Brothers in arms by Dire straits a few years back but it sounds crap on vinyl as it was one of the earliest records to be produced from a digital recording when they didn't really know what they were doing. There are now much much better versions of this album released by the likes of Mofi who took the digital recordings and did a great job with them. Their version of Brothers in arms is way better than the original so it is not always the case that older vinyl is the best sounding. You have to tread carefully!
Pigmy Pony
16-05-2023, 05:48
I play all mine, even the ones worth £200-£300.
I don't play all of mine, quite a few are filed under 'What was I thinking?" :doh: But yes, the good 'uns all get played regardless of value. Life's too short to be precious about these things, why should I deny myself the pleasure, just so my kids can flog them unplayed.
I don't know about that, I have original pressing of BOA bought the week it came out. Played it over thirty-odd years and I've never noticed anything wrong with it - but then I've not compared to a fancy mo-fi pressing.
I've asked a few people who were there at the time about this whole 'Engineers didn't understand digital' thing and based on that I reckon it's a myth. There might have been some isolated cases but for major label releases? It isn't likely.
The CD is better because you get the full length songs. :)
I listened to the standard vinyl pressing of Brother in arms last night and it sounded thin, lacking in body and bright. Compared to Love Over Gold it sounds very poor in my opinion. I had the CD as well as it was probably the first I ever bought. This was digital at its worst.
Don't get me wrong I am not anti digital as I have loads of vinyl that have been produced from digital recordings and they sound stunning but some of the early digitally derived stuff is just dreadful. I have numerous examples and they just don't get played!
I listened to the standard vinyl pressing of Brother in arms last night and it sounded thin, lacking in body and bright. Compared to Love Over Gold it sounds very poor in my opinion. I had the CD as well as it was probably the first I ever bought. This was digital at its worst.
Don't get me wrong I am not anti digital as I have loads of vinyl that have been produced from digital recordings and they sound stunning but some of the early digitally derived stuff is just dreadful. I have numerous examples and they just don't get played!
not disputing what you hear just the reason for it. There's a shit-ton of variables with vinyl. Maybe your copy was one of the last from the stamper before it was replaced? Maybe the vinyl used for that batch was inferior? That professional engineers working for major labels were incompetent with a process that's not at all complex just isn't the most likely explanation.
not disputing what you hear just the reason for it. There's a shit-ton of variables with vinyl. Maybe your copy was one of the last from the stamper before it was replaced? Maybe the vinyl used for that batch was inferior? That professional engineers working for major labels were incompetent with a process that's not at all complex just isn't the most likely explanation.
I am not suggesting the engineers working at the time were incompetent but the techniques, digital mastering methods and equipment have moved on a lot from those early days and so digital recordings used in the production of vinyl presently are far superior, as long as the mastering has been done well.
AJSki2fly
16-05-2023, 07:27
May have a look at obtaining some of that and run complete speaker cable lengths. Cheers Gary.
Yes I have been meaning to as well
Yes I have been meaning to as well
Its a cheap option to try. My only uncertainty is whether the Dueland 16 gauge cable although a copy of the WE performs the same. I am sure they were materials with different metallic compositions then which may account for the reason the WE sounded the way it did. But as some folk have found the Dueland cables do perform very well indeed so worth a punt.
My small experience with the speaker jumper cables would certainly suggest so!
AJSki2fly
16-05-2023, 10:33
Its a cheap option to try. My only uncertainty is whether the Dueland 16 gauge cable although a copy of the WE performs the same. I am sure they were materials with different metallic compositions then which may account for the reason the WE sounded the way it did. But as some folk have found the Dueland cables do perform very well indeed so worth a punt.
My small experience with the speaker jumper cables would certainly suggest so!
I met a chap from the Isle Of Wight, I cannot recall his name for the life of me, that used purely Dueland Cables, 16 and 12 gauge I think. His system was a rather rare and very nice valve power amp with pre-amp all in a copper casing, he ran a pair of Grandis Calliope Signature speakers and had several turntables. He recommended Dueland cables having thrown away several very expensive makes. If I recall correctly he had them bi-wired with 12 and 16 gauge Dueland. He also recommended another cable for interconnects which I tried and it was very good.
Having spoken to a hifi buddy this afternoon who has some NOS WE 16AG speaker cable and tried the Dueland cable I think it is safe to say they are not the same.
Yes they maybe the same construction but that maybe as far as it goes. Sound wise???
Looking at WE cable it is now unobtainium or at huge prices on eBay and there is plenty of "suspect" stuff floating around as well so I may have come to a dead end with this little venture. I need 16 feet of the Dueland cable to even give it a try so that starts to get expensive and if it isn't the same SQ as WE 16Ag then I would be disappointed.
Good threads here on Audiogon James Re: the differences between the two, from other audiophiles that have done the comparison.
Many prefer the Duelund, thinking it sounds better.
As ever, opinions vary and always good listen for yourself.
:thumbsup:
https://www.google.com/search?q=duelund+cable+v+western+electric+site:for um.audiogon.com&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=APwXEdegmmuLlsRHivhwlcgMVhMDwYGPkQ:168426357 7980&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH9Jfiwvr-AhWPR8AKHRqeASgQrQIoBHoECBUQBQ&biw=1152&bih=576&dpr=2.22
Having spoken to a hifi buddy this afternoon who has some NOS WE 16AG speaker cable and tried the Dueland cable I think it is safe to say they are not the same.
Yes they maybe the same construction but that maybe as far as it goes. Sound wise???
Looking at WE cable it is now unobtainium or at huge prices on eBay and there is plenty of "suspect" stuff floating around as well so I may have come to a dead end with this little venture. I need 16 feet of the Dueland cable to even give it a try so that starts to get expensive and if it isn't the same SQ as WE 16Ag then I would be disappointed.
According to the Audiogon site you cite, the Dueland stuff seems to be better.
Not that I care, my speakers cannnot be bi- or tri-wired, and the cables need only be 30 -50cm long.
Good threads here on Audiogon James Re: the differences between the two, from other audiophiles that have done the comparison.
Many prefer the Duelund, thinking it sounds better.
As ever, opinions vary and always good listen for yourself.
:thumbsup:
https://www.google.com/search?q=duelund+cable+v+western+electric+site:for um.audiogon.com&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=APwXEdegmmuLlsRHivhwlcgMVhMDwYGPkQ:168426357 7980&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjH9Jfiwvr-AhWPR8AKHRqeASgQrQIoBHoECBUQBQ&biw=1152&bih=576&dpr=2.22
I will have a look at the Audio thread Gary but I feel in the end it maybe a case of suck it and see!
Another evening listening to some great music. The new 2M black sounds great and looks to be holding up well! Can't really say I need to do anything to the system but just sit back and enjoy the music. So this year I am going to use funds for buying lots more vinyl and have ear marked a load of stuff starting with some nice original Kraftwerk pressings. I already have Man Machine and Computer World which I bought when they originally came out in 1977 and 1981. They still sound perfect and the SQ is very impressive. Just had Trans Europe Express turn up and now considering some even older stuff maybe even Ralf and Florian. Pity they stopped producing anything great after Computer World but when I listen to this album the last two tracks still sound futuristic. Don't think they could move on from this point.
Interesting comparing some of these early recordings compared to newer releases and remastered material. There seems to be a purity to the original albums and the analogue synthesisers and analogue recording seem to sit so right listening on vinyl. `Funnily it was actually computers that really seemed to put an end to Kraftwerk evolving as Karl Bartos felt that they just ended up looking at screens rather than at each other and playing electronic instruments together. Maybe this is also happening in society where so many young folk are engaging with each other on phones via social media rather than in the flesh and eye to eye.
It got me thinking that computers and the digital world has a lot to answer for in how we see the world and interact with each other and although Kraftwerk's seminal album Computer world foresaw many things, travel, banking/money, internet dating?, manipulation of data(numbers) and home computing it did not quite foresee what it would do to our social interaction and indeed the digitalisation of music!
pretty deep stuff James but I think there were some predictions - I'm thinking in particular of 'The Machine Stops' - a short story by EM Forster - set in a future in which everyone lives alone and communicates almost entirely via the internet. Things like forums and the streaming of music are described in some detail.
It was written in 1908 - yeah that's not a typo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops
pretty deep stuff James but I think there were some predictions - I'm thinking in particular of 'The Machine Stops' - a short story by EM Forster - set in a future in which everyone lives alone and communicates almost entirely via the internet. Things like forums and the streaming of music are described in some detail.
It was written in 1908 - yeah that's not a typo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops
Bloody hell that was very early. I wonder what AI chat and VR Headsets are going to add next to the digital future. A friend of mine uses AI Chat and it very scary how good it is even taking into consideration some of the misteps there have been in its early introduction.
Bloody hell that was very early. I wonder what AI chat and VR Headsets are going to add next to the digital future. A friend of mine uses AI Chat and it very scary how good it is even taking into consideration some of the misteps there have been in its early introduction.
I try to avoid technological advances until they become inevitable.:)
I try to avoid technological advances until they become inevitable.:)
Much of the business world seem to be trying to make using technology unavoidable. The default nowadays seems to be to download an app for your phone!
walpurgis
20-05-2023, 07:05
pretty deep stuff James but I think there were some predictions - I'm thinking in particular of 'The Machine Stops' - a short story by EM Forster - set in a future in which everyone lives alone and communicates almost entirely via the internet. Things like forums and the streaming of music are described in some detail.
It was written in 1908 - yeah that's not a typo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops
I have that.
I have that.
ive got it too ... not read it yet...and had it for while; well its an audio book actually. a fairly short story i think.
More experimenting with speaker set up and listening position over the last few days and it has been quite interesting. It seems to be generally agreed that the default listening set up with speakers in any given room would be an equiateral triangle which is what I have been trying to achieve since putting in the room treatment and generally setting up a better listening environment. However the last few days I have experimented with moving my seating position a lot further away from the speakers and breaking the generally accepted rules.
This has bought about big gains for my listening experience and as long as I keep correcting the speaker toe in I am getting a significantly better tonal balance in the room. I feel before I may have been a bit too close to the speakers which could make some recordings sound a bit forward and in your face but now much of this has been reduced and the overall sound is far more relaxed and pleasant to listen to. Soundstage has improved marginally with better front to back presentation and perspective of depth. In fact the further I sit back the deeper the soundstage appears to be.
I must say the listening experience is now so much more natural and relaxed and even "hot" recordings are more tolerable. I still have a few feet further that I could use but I feel that the closer I get towards the back wall other negative aspects may occur so I might be at the limits of my room set up?
AJSki2fly
21-05-2023, 07:48
I have found similar, speaker 8’ apart and listening 10’ away. This 1.25 times the 8’, several set up gurus recommend up to 1.2 times.
I experimented with toe in and have found that angled so each speaker is firing just past my ears, or they axial cross at about 2’ behind my head gives a good soundstage and on most recordings, depending on mix I get that speaker disappearing trick.
By the way I sit about 2.5m forward from the wall behind me, and speaker fronts are about 1.5m from the wall behind them.
I tried several variations but this seems to work best in our room.
I have found similar, speaker 8’ apart and listening 10’ away. This 1.25 times the 8’, several set up gurus recommend up to 1.2 times.
I experimented with toe in and have found that angled so each speaker is firing just past my ears, or they axial cross at about 2’ behind my head gives a good soundstage and on most recordings, depending on mix I get that speaker disappearing trick.
By the way I sit about 2.5m forward from the wall behind me, and speaker fronts are about 1.5m from the wall behind them.
I tried several variations but this seems to work best in our room.
Looks like I have found a similar set up to yours is producing similar results Adrian. `Good to get confirmation you also hear better presentation from this set up. My measurements are very similar to yours sitting about 10 feet away with an 8 foot gap between the speakers.
What are you room dimensions BTW?
Three variables - room, speakers, personal taste.
Okay so you need a triangle but not necessarily an equilateral triangle.
Most rooms I've had weren't wide enough to get the speakers really far apart so with equilateral triable I end up sitting too close. I really don't like sitting so close to the speakers.
I find in terms of soundstage/imaging that it throws the baby out with the bathwater. But then I tend to favour large multi-way speakers - with a small one or two way speaker maybe sitting almost on top of them is better for soundstage.
I actual find the the equilateral triangle position sounds worst in my room especially as they are large speakers. You end up with a weird distorted presentation of the sound not unlike standing next to big concert PA systems where you have a very unbalanced sound that is usually all bass or ear bleeding loudness if your too close. I used to go to a lot of metal concerts where thus happened back in the late 1970s.:eek:
Obviously speaker manufacturers would like you to think that you could manage almost any of their speakers in any room size but although this is true to an extent it means if you have large speakers in a small room you are hearing a very near field sound presentation which although maybe listenable and suggest great clarity is completely screws with the soundstage and imaging. It is better to actually have smaller speakers in a big room rather than big speakers in a small room as although you won't get much bass from small speakers playing a large room you will get fantastic soundstage and clarity. I found this when I first heard the LS3/5as in a large room. Fantastic sound albeit zero bass!
Large speakers in a small room simply accentuate and swamp the bass and screw with soundstage so you end up continuously trying to ameliorate the effects!
The best solution really is obvious. The correct size of speakers for the room you are listening in which takes away much of the hard work trying to make them "fit".
I have spent the past few months simply trying to get the very best combination of speakers/ room / treatment / positioning to get the optimum balanced sound from my set up that conveys all the scale and detail I want. Finding that optimum set up really takes time and is obviously very personal to you own listening requirements.
Pigmy Pony
21-05-2023, 14:07
Three variables - room, speakers, personal taste.
Okay so you need a triangle but not necessarily an equilateral triangle.
Most rooms I've had weren't wide enough to get the speakers really far apart so with equilateral triable I end up sitting too close. I really don't like sitting so close to the speakers.
I find in terms of soundstage/imaging that it throws the baby out with the bathwater. But then I tend to favour large multi-way speakers - with a small one or two way speaker maybe sitting almost on top of them is better for soundstage.
Mine is a scalene triangle, also known as a "If you don't like it you'll have to sit on the floor" triangle. My sound from my set up is actually quite good close up, probably because they're full range drivers. But Anita wouldn't be able to see the telly, so that won't work.
Obviously the ideal solution would be a dedicated listening room, but that's not happening.
Mine is a scalene triangle, also known as a "If you don't like it you'll have to sit on the floor" triangle. My sound from my set up is actually quite good close up, probably because they're full range drivers. But Anita wouldn't be able to see the telly, so that won't work.
Obviously the ideal solution would be a dedicated listening room, but that's not happening.
you can get some pretty fancy 'Garden Rooms' these days, if you've got the space out back. The one my brother installed last year is better than my house.
The centre of my speakers are about 2 metres apart and my listening position is about 5 metres from the the speakers; so an isosceles triangle (and in fact slightly scalene) with the speakers facing and 'on-axis' to my listening position. Being panel speakers, almost as much energy is radiated from the rear as from the front, so they need to placed well away from a rear wall. As such there is only one practical arrangement possible in my room.
It may not be ideal, but is an arrangement I have lived with for 45 years (and the speakers for 50 years!)
The centre of my speakers are about 2 metres apart and my listening position is about 5 metres from the the speakers; so an isosceles triangle (and in fact slightly scalene) with the speakers facing and 'on-axis' to my listening position. Being panel speakers, almost as much energy is radiated from the rear as from the front, so they need to placed well away from a rear wall. As such there is only one practical arrangement possible in my room.
It may not be ideal, but is an arrangement I have lived with for 45 years (and the speakers for 50 years!)
It would be interesting to know how many folk have isosceles triangle set ups, I suspect quite a lot? Room shape and furniture often dictate listening set up and take priority over the "ideal" set up.
The centre of my speakers are about 2 metres apart and my listening position is about 5 metres from the the speakers; so an isosceles triangle (and in fact slightly scalene) with the speakers facing and 'on-axis' to my listening position. Being panel speakers, almost as much energy is radiated from the rear as from the front, so they need to placed well away from a rear wall. As such there is only one practical arrangement possible in my room.
It may not be ideal, but is an arrangement I have lived with for 45 years (and the speakers for 50 years!)
i have pretty much identical room and speaker positioning. Although most of the time I sit off to one side. Never been that bothered about soundstage really especially since once I heard it done properly I realised I would never get even close to that in my room.
i have pretty much identical room and speaker positioning. Although most of the time I sit off to one side. Never been that bothered about soundstage really especially since once I heard it done properly I realised I would never get even close to that in my room.
Listening off axis can be very good, one of my mates with an ultra high end system listens regularly like this.
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 15:58
you can get some pretty fancy 'Garden Rooms' these days, if you've got the space out back. The one my brother installed last year is better than my house.
Might go down the garden room route myself, if we don’t move house, although we are struggling to find something we like in our budget. As my current music room , the loft is far from ideal.
Might go down the garden room route myself, if we don’t move house, although we are struggling to find something we like in our budget. As my current music room , the loft is far from ideal.
Great idea, you can do something purpose built and no problems annoying others in the house or next door?
Pigmy Pony
21-05-2023, 16:32
Some of those garden rooms look pretty smart - I have a couple of customers who have one. One uses it for her pet grooming business, the other uses it as his office.
But they're timber structures, and I imagine playing music at moderate to high levels will sound like you're inside a giant loudspeaker cabinet, and will eventually piss off your neighbours.
Enlarging an existing brick garage and making it habitable would be good, but would prob cost about £10k though.
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 16:33
Great idea, you can do something purpose built and no problems annoying others in the house or next door?
Moving would be the preferred choice, grandparent duties, but if we end up staying where we are then a garden room would be a good solution.
Moving would be the preferred choice, grandparent duties, but if we end up staying where we are then a garden room would be a good solution.
is that move away from grandparent duties:eyebrows:
It's an interesting idea, but a quick look indicates a typical cost of around £1K per square metre, so for a reasonable size it's going to cost about £10K.
Also as Steve says, there are a lot of hard reflective surfaces to deal with, as well as having to install heating for the winter months. If it could be attached to the house as an extension (a bit like a conservatory) then that might help matters.
(Why not turn the living room into a listening room and put the TV in the garden room? :eyebrows: )
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 16:55
is that move away from grandparent duties:eyebrows:
Unfortunately not Grant
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 16:56
It's an interesting idea, but a quick look indicates a typical cost of around £1K per square metre, so for a reasonable size it's going to cost about £10K.
Also as Steve says, there are a lot of hard reflective surfaces to deal with, as well as having to install heating for the winter months. If it could be attached to the house as an extension (a bit like a conservatory) then that might help matters.
(Why not turn the living room into a listening room and put the TV in the garden room? :eyebrows: )
Yeah that would really please the wife.
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 16:58
Some of those garden rooms look pretty smart - I have a couple of customers who have one. One uses it for her pet grooming business, the other uses it as his office.
But they're timber structures, and I imagine playing music at moderate to high levels will sound like you're inside a giant loudspeaker cabinet, and will eventually piss off your neighbours.
Enlarging an existing brick garage and making it habitable would be good, but would prob cost about £10k though.
They are not all timber structures now, lots of choice out there, and extension is not not possible unfortunately.
Unfortunately not Grant
my 2 are both getting big.. 15 and 12 now. i dont see them much tbh now...
They are not all timber structures now, lots of choice out there, and extension is not not possible unfortunately.
do what i did. move to headphones:)
rmcin626
21-05-2023, 18:07
my 2 are both getting big.. 15 and 12 now. i dont see them much tbh now...
Our grandson is nearly 3 and we pick him up from nursery a couple of times a week and we have him every Wednesday .
Pigmy Pony
22-05-2023, 11:04
I don't know, life's a battle. Your kids grow up and leave home, and just when you think you've got your life back, they go and have kids and it all starts again. And my view gets no support from her indoors, she just calls me a miserable old git :(
If I can just develop my crap memory a bit further ("I'm sure I left them playing in the garden"), and throw in a bit of incontinence, I might be able to swerve great-grandparent duties.
In the past when families were closer, it would be the grandparents who would look after the children whilst the parents were working. The grand children in turn would later look after the grandparents when they became very old and unable to look after themselves.
Our grandson is nearly 3 and we pick him up from nursery a couple of times a week and we have him every Wednesday .
i used to take and pick up the youngest from nursery; not every day but a few.. older one, not so much
rmcin626
22-05-2023, 12:41
i used to take and pick up the youngest from nursery; not every day but a few.. older one, not so much
Picking him from nursery is fine and give him his tea, then his parents collect him, 2 hours max, ideal
Pigmy Pony
22-05-2023, 12:41
In the past when families were closer, it would be the grandparents who would look after the children whilst the parents were working. The grand children in turn would later look after the grandparents when they became very old and unable to look after themselves.
I don't see my grandkids doing that for us, not unless there's an app for it on their phone.
Most of my Asian customers seem to be multi-generation households, because they respect and care for their elders. The best we can hope for in our dotage is to not get mugged, burgled or scammed.
I don't have any children of my own, but I have 'inherited' a family from my partner. But I doubt if they will look after us in our (or rather my) old age. :doh:
Lawrence001
22-05-2023, 19:36
I don't see my grandkids doing that for us, not unless there's an app for it on their phone.
Most of my Asian customers seem to be multi-generation households, because they respect and care for their elders. The best we can hope for in our dotage is to not get mugged, burgled or scammed.Best thing we can do is get them a decent education so they can get a well paid job. Then hope they can spend some of their income on a decent care home for us where the residents aren't routinely physically and mentally abused.
Pigmy Pony
22-05-2023, 21:46
I don't want a care home thankyou. I want my offspring to build me a granny flat in their garden. Doesn't have to be anything special - small bedroom, bathroom, not much of a kitchen cos we'll live on takeaways and meals on wheels, and a good size living room so the stereo can work properly. With a little snug annexed, just big enough for Mrs. P and her telly :)
I for one look forward to being old, incontinent and a burden on my Family.
One down already, two to go.
...Not saying which one mind.
I for one look forward to being old, incontinent and a burden on my Family.
One down already, two to go.
...Not saying which one mind.At least one lol
Guess what I am doing today!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52919323701_f0074fb041_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oCinfM)430A3A81-978F-48AD-977B-C709A2DDCF3A (https://flic.kr/p/2oCinfM) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]/url], on Flickr
Pigmy Pony
23-05-2023, 18:43
I for one look forward to being old, incontinent and a burden on my Family.
One down already, two to go.
...Not saying which one mind.
No need to, Gary Pee-pants :ner:
No need to, Gary Pee-pants :ner:
... adds to basket
Absorbency up to 1450ml, that'll do nicely!
https://www.incontinencechoice.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/4294a6711ad43a2ad3c7426d67cd48a3/t/e/tena-men-x10-s-m-premium-fit-maxi-underwear-hero-min.jpg
Dont forget your earphones, these things get noisy when at full tilt.
How many albums you targeting today James?
Guess what I am doing today!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52919323701_f0074fb041_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oCinfM)430A3A81-978F-48AD-977B-C709A2DDCF3A (https://flic.kr/p/2oCinfM) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]/url], on Flickr
These days I find that running water from a tap, or the sound of trickling water, makes me feel I need to urinate.
Also why is it after a strong cup of coffee I feel the need to defaecate?
Luckily no need for Tena pads just yet!
Pigmy Pony
24-05-2023, 12:55
... adds to basket
Absorbency up to 1450ml, that'll do nicely!
https://www.incontinencechoice.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/4294a6711ad43a2ad3c7426d67cd48a3/t/e/tena-men-x10-s-m-premium-fit-maxi-underwear-hero-min.jpg
1450ml? Yikes! I bet they don't look like that picture when they've got the equivalent of two bottles of wine in them... "Premium fit, for men who can't be arsed even trying for the bog".
Pigmy Pony
24-05-2023, 13:00
These are all you need:
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a973e1622ed544b7JmltdHM9MTY4NDg4NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0z YzkxYjc5My1mYzk3LTY1NTEtMTY5Mi1hNWYxZmQ3NzY0YjImaW 5zaWQ9NTUwMg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=3c91b793-fc97-6551-1692-a5f1fd7764b2&u=a1L3ZpZGVvcy9zZWFyY2g_cT1iaWxseStjb25ub2xseStpbm NvbnRpbmVuY2UrcGFudHMreW91dHViZSZ2aWV3PWRldGFpbCZt aWQ9MzAwNERCQkZDNDhFODVCNTNEMzkzMDA0REJCRkM0OEU4NU I1M0QzOSZGT1JNPVZJUkU&ntb=1
thats a lot of pish mate;)
New vacuum tube delivered today so back in action £30!:eek:for a plastic tube!
Pigmy Pony
26-05-2023, 08:47
What's a vacuum tube? I assume you don't mean an attachment for your hoover :scratch:
AJSki2fly
26-05-2023, 09:15
What's a vacuum tube? I assume you don't mean an attachment for your hoover :scratch:
I'd assumed an adapter for colonic irrigation based on the previous posts. :D
Pigmy Pony
26-05-2023, 09:30
I'd assumed an adapter for colonic irrigation based on the previous posts. :D
:lol: You're a bad man...
What's a vacuum tube? I assume you don't mean an attachment for your hoover :scratch:
Ah yes I should have put this on a new post - What vacuum cleaner do you use?
Pigmy Pony
26-05-2023, 15:16
Just had a look - it's a Vax Blade 4, with a spare battery, and it's a belter, I'm told. Only got it just after Christmas on a shopping spree, also getting a shitload of Ninja things for the kitchen. And just got back now with a new iron that doesn't have a dangly wire.
These are things I have to do when building up to needing a new stylus for the 2M Black :)
Not sure if you saw I had an issue with collapsed suspension on my new 2M Black stylus! However this was replaced by the dealer for another new stylus which looks way better and sounds superb.
Just had a look - it's a Vax Blade 4, with a spare battery, and it's a belter, I'm told. Only got it just after Christmas on a shopping spree, also getting a shitload of Ninja things for the kitchen. And just got back now with a new iron that doesn't have a dangly wire.
These are things I have to do when building up to needing a new stylus for the 2M Black :)
I would say using a Vax Blade 4 for record cleaning maybe a bit OTT!:lol:
my older one is a vax.. blade 2 and its been very reliable. got a new one for upstairs a few months ago. its a shark.
no record cleaner now; sold it to a member:D
Pigmy Pony
26-05-2023, 15:41
Not sure if you saw I had an issue with collapsed suspension on my new 2M Black stylus! However this was replaced by the dealer for another new stylus which looks way better and sounds superb.
Yes I saw your posts, nice that you got it sorted with little hassle. it will be a new stylus for me - I have no intention of moving from my 2M Black. It just sounds right to me, so why change? :)
Yes I saw your posts, nice that you got it sorted with little hassle. it will be a new stylus for me - I have no intention of moving from my 2M Black. It just sounds right to me, so why change? :)
Exactly, that's why I have used one for the past 7 years. Tried other stuff but they just don't deliver the clarity and dynamics of the 2M. I have considered MC but I would need to spend £2000 to get something really better and another phono stage or SUT. Rather spend my cash on more vinyl.
Just going back to my suspension issue, apparently a number of 2M stylus can suffer from this, not sure if its a quality control issue especially as Ortofon are now making huge quantities of cartridges for the world market.
A dealer I spoke to recently saw a huge carton of Cadenza Black MC cartridges at a distributor and he recons there must have been hundreds in the box so obviously there is a lot of demand.
Pigmy Pony
26-05-2023, 16:53
Yes I think pretty much on the same lines Steve. If I had bottomless pockets it might be different, but most of us in the real world have to choose one thing over another. At the end of the day it's the music that matters - we buy hifi to make our records/CDs sound better, rather than buying music that makes our hifi sound better! Or we should be...
Not sure where I'll be buying one (Amazon at £369 seems to be best price right now), but I will certainly be looking at it very closely, not a bargain if it arrives bent as a dog's dick.
last time I looked a few years back replacement stylus for mine was £240 which I thought was crazy, now up to £449.
That's almost a week's take-home which is just ludicrous.
Cheaper on eBay but probably fake.
last time I looked a few years back replacement stylus for mine was £240 which I thought was crazy, now up to £449.
That's almost a week's take-home which is just ludicrous.
Cheaper on eBay but probably fake.
MP300?
MP300?
MP500.
I would go through a stylus about every six months, doing that now would be almost a grand a year.
I can afford it but I can't stomach it. Same amount buy me about 200 used CDs.
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 06:46
MP500.
I would go through a stylus about every six months, doing that now would be almost a grand a year.
I can afford it but I can't stomach it. Same amount buy me about 200 used CDs.
Two and a half years of those kind of savings could buy you a minty used Accuphase CD player that doesn't have a loading slot :D
You're shining a light on the harsh reality of vinyl replay costs, and it is something most record lovers try not to think about... my records and CDs don't get that many hours play per week (probably about 4/5 hours), and CD/vinyl ratio about 3:1, so my stylus would last a long time. But now I'm home more that will change, so I do need to get it replaced.
I'd be reluctant to chuck the old one away though - is a worn one easy to spot? Would one of those mini-magnifiers that jewellers use do the job? I think we have one somewhere.
Two and a half years of those kind of savings could buy you a minty used Accuphase CD player that doesn't have a loading slot :D
You're shining a light on the harsh reality of vinyl replay costs, and it is something most record lovers try not to think about... my records and CDs don't get that many hours play per week (probably about 4/5 hours), and CD/vinyl ratio about 3:1, so my stylus would last a long time. But now I'm home more that will change, so I do need to get it replaced.
I'd be reluctant to chuck the old one away though - is a worn one easy to spot? Would one of those mini-magnifiers that jewellers use do the job? I think we have one somewhere.
I usually have about a four hour session and when I was running both vinyl and digital it would be one or the other, I don't like to change lanes once I'm underway. So soon rack up the hours.
I would wait until I heard degradation before changing the stylus and that isn't a good idea as before you actually hear it going bad there's a risk of damage to the record.
I've read different things about looking at the stylus to check wear. Some say you can't tell others say that you can. Either way seems like a ball-ache too far. The CD is the same every time, no wear and when the player packs in you know right away. I mean my Audiolab transport cost the same as a replacement stylus for my cartridge and although it will die at some point it won't be after only six months and its 'objective' sound quality is better than any turntable system at any price.
Yes I like records, I like turntables, I like playing records, and good quality records on a good deck sound great but overall there's so many other problems aside from the expense (which has now got silly) - that's why the world moved on.
(Yes I do want that Accuphase but so far manage to talk myself out of it).
I usually have about a four hour session and when I was running both vinyl and digital it would be one or the other, I don't like to change lanes once I'm underway. So soon rack up the hours.
I would wait until I heard degradation before changing the stylus and that isn't a good idea as before you actually hear it going bad there's a risk of damage to the record.
I've read different things about looking at the stylus to check wear. Some say you can't tell others say that you can. Either way seems like a ball-ache too far. The CD is the same every time, no wear and when the player packs in you know right away. I mean my Audiolab transport cost the same as a replacement stylus for my cartridge and although it will die at some point it won't be after only six months and its 'objective' sound quality is better than any turntable system at any price.
Yes I like records, I like turntables, I like playing records, and good quality records on a good deck sound great but overall there's so many other problems aside from the expense (which has now got silly) - that's why the world moved on.
(Yes I do want that Accuphase but so far manage to talk myself out of it).
Except the world did not move on - it moved backwards, back into vinyl and CD was shown the door. :)
Except the world did not move on - it moved backwards, back into vinyl and CD was shown the door. :)
Give it time, 15 years ago I predicted that vinyl would come back because it's cool and retro - and it did.
I'm predicting CD will come back because people will eventually realise the value in owning a hard copy of the mastering they prefer. One that is an exact copy of the recording, not a bastardization, and which doesn't warp, get noisy, need cleaning etc etc.
CD still shifting more units than vinyl, it's just the total revenue for vinyl is higher because of the premium price.
Adjust for inflation from 1985 to present:
A vinyl new release (£5 in 1985) should cost £15 but it's usually £25
For CD a new release (£12 in 1985) should cost £35 but is usually £10
In any case both a still niche formats since the vast majority of people only use 'free' streaming services. The Wetherspoons of music consumption.
Yeah true steaming is the worlds preferred choice of music consumption because its FREE!
There is a small CD revival happening already as folk can pick up true bargains in crate digging stores etc and I have started to read more articles suggesting CD is actually a better medium for digital playback than file based audio or Hi Rez streaming so I can imagine that would be another vindication for you Martin?
Like I have said before I don't listen to vinyl for anything other than its SQ. Yes its inconvenient and has loads of problems and I am not into the retro thing or even the big deal over the "ritual" and album art. Nope, I only listen to vinyl for one reason. For me it simply sounds better than any digital set up I have ever heard.
still buy cd's here. i copy them for ease of use but i wont get rid. still got loads of vinyl too but no means of play now:D
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 12:22
(Yes I do want that Accuphase but so far manage to talk myself out of it).
Tis a thing of beauty, and likely the last disc-spinner you'll ever need. And most other Accuphase gear I see coming up seems to be the wrong voltage. If my numbers come up I'll buy it for you... who am I kidding, if my numbers come up I'll buy it for myself :D
Yeah true steaming is the worlds preferred choice of music consumption because its FREE!
There is a small CD revival happening already as folk can pick up true bargains in crate digging stores etc and I have started to read more articles suggesting CD is actually a better medium for digital playback than file based audio or Hi Rez streaming so I can imagine that would be another vindication for you Martin?
.
A vindication? Well not basing my life around it lol.
No I don't think streaming inherently is worse than CD there's no reason why that would be.
Can think of a couple of reasons it may be in practice - mastering version may be different - with streaming you get what you're given, CD you can choose your master (usually). Also CD playback system is simple, CD player to amplifier, that's it.
Streaming there are more places to get it wrong, in software settings obviously but also more connections and boxes and so more opportunities to put noise into the signal. But done right, which I'm sure is not hard, and with the same master, I see no reason for there not to be identical results. Especially if a person does not know which one they are listening to.
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 13:17
Yeah true steaming is the worlds preferred choice of music consumption because its FREE!
There is a small CD revival happening already as folk can pick up true bargains in crate digging stores etc and I have started to read more articles suggesting CD is actually a better medium for digital playback than file based audio or Hi Rez streaming so I can imagine that would be another vindication for you Martin?
Like I have said before I don't listen to vinyl for anything other than its SQ. Yes its inconvenient and has loads of problems and I am not into the retro thing or even the big deal over the "ritual" and album art. Nope, I only listen to vinyl for one reason. For me it simply sounds better than any digital set up I have ever heard.
I do think my vinyl set up sounds better than my CDs, but I don't think the difference is night and day. And considering the vinyl rig cost 15x that of the CD player, there probably isn't a logical reason for keeping on with my records. Good thing my brain doesn't work logically :)
I'm quite happy to be playing CDs much of the time, and if I thought there was a big discrepancy in SQ I would either have to seriously upgrade the CD player, otherwise the CDs simply wouldn't get played.
I'm not into the retro thing, and certainly not the "ritual" (PITA most of the time), but I do like a bit of album art. Have some of my favourites hanging on the wall :)
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 13:22
still buy cd's here. i copy them for ease of use but i wont get rid. still got loads of vinyl too but no means of play now:D
Why do you still buy CDs Grant? I thought you were all-in with the streaming these days.
I used to prefer the SQ of vinyl but that changed gradually even though I improved the vinyl system over time.
I think what changed was improving the room, amplification and speakers. I started to hear the benefits of a digital source.
It's not that digital is not good enough it's that it's too good. Vinyl is more forgiving. Less top end energy to bounce around a reflective room, less bass and mono bass gives the speaker and the amplifier an easier time, especially with a two way speaker where one driver is being asked to do almost everything. Cut the low bass signal to any small two way and be amazed at the uptick in the quality of what remains.
But just my theory.
Pigmy Pony
27-05-2023, 13:36
Give it time, 15 years ago I predicted that vinyl would come back because it's cool and retro - and it did.
I'm predicting CD will come back because people will eventually realise the value in owning a hard copy of the mastering they prefer. One that is an exact copy of the recording, not a bastardization, and which doesn't warp, get noisy, need cleaning etc etc.
CD still shifting more units than vinyl, it's just the total revenue for vinyl is higher because of the premium price.
Adjust for inflation from 1985 to present:
A vinyl new release (£5 in 1985) should cost £15 but it's usually £25
For CD a new release (£12 in 1985) should cost £35 but is usually £10
In any case both a still niche formats since the vast majority of people only use 'free' streaming services. The Wetherspoons of music consumption.
Not sure that's going to happen Martin. The wider world (young folk) don't think like us dinosaurs, and will keep on with streaming/file-based, because it's a better fit for their lifestyles. They want the convenience, and have only a passing interest in SQ, where their smartphones and bluetooth earbuds and smart speakers are more than adequate. CDs (and records) are too much of an encumberence.
I predict that the vinyl bubble will burst, and sellers will be forced to stop taking the piss. And I'll be there with cash ready :) And CDs will continue to be the great VFM that they are.
Why do you still buy CDs Grant? I thought you were all-in with the streaming these days.
well i stream but also steam my own library.. also i like the back up of cds. ive hundreds of them and if i needed to could go back to a cd player
Not sure that's going to happen Martin. The wider world (young folk) don't think like us dinosaurs, and will keep on with streaming/file-based, because it's a better fit for their lifestyles. They want the convenience, and have only a passing interest in SQ, where their smartphones and bluetooth earbuds and smart speakers are more than adequate. CDs (and records) are too much of an encumberence.
I predict that the vinyl bubble will burst, and sellers will be forced to stop taking the piss. And I'll be there with cash ready :) And CDs will continue to be the great VFM that they are.
I'm not saying it will come back as a mass-market thing but as a desirable niche format like vinyl is now.
Seems to me if youngsters are buying vinyl as its retro and cool they will do the same with CD.
Just the fact that it's a physical format - they are not used to that so it has novelty, and its cheap enough second hand to be attractive. Just like vinyl was up to about ten years ago.
Anyway time will tell.
Yes Album art can be very cool and nice to be able to read it without a microscope!
Flicking through some vinyl....
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52932828199_b2e72eba24_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oDuzEX)B05153C6-6B97-499F-982F-D41184345407 (https://flic.kr/p/2oDuzEX) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]/url], on Flickr
Nice.
All about the improved sound quality of course. :D
Sitting waiting to spin some tunes tonight and listening to the hiss and hum as the system warms up! I bet this would drive some OCD audiophiles mad?
At least I know the system is on:lol:
Sitting waiting to spin some tunes tonight and listening to the hiss and hum as the system warms up! I bet this would drive some OCD audiophiles mad?
At least I know the system is on:lol:
You're not wrong there Jim - it would drive me nuts.
I have used valve amplification in the past (Quad II/22 and Radford STA15/III), and neither made any noise whilst warm up.
You're not wrong there Jim - it would drive me nuts.
I have used valve amplification in the past (Quad II/22 and Radford STA15/III), and neither made any noise whilst warm up.
Its just a bit of tube rush and toroids buzzing in the amps. Can't hear any of it when the music is playing at 90dB:lol:
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2023, 18:28
My system buzz's a little then calms down and then is virtually silent apart from some Tx hum from the amp and a very very faint hum through the speakers. All goes when playing music and strangely things do improve markedly when the systems been on for a couple of hours you can hear even less hum/buzz.
My system buzz's a little then calms down and then is virtually silent apart from some Tx hum from the amp and a very very faint hum through the speakers. All goes when playing music and strangely things do improve markedly when the systems been on for a couple of hours you can hear even less hum/buzz.
Yes funnily my system really sounds at its best a couple of hours in.
Tonights tweaking is centred around altering the tension on the grub screws holding my arm pillar from moving. I was recently reading an article that was reviewing a tonearm and it mentioned altering the tension on tonearm pillar grub screws and the effect it had on SQ.
I am finding that easing off and just nipping up the grub screws gives the most satisfying presentation. Tightening very tight does seem to have a negative effect in that there seems to be a very slight hardening to the sound and the music is a tiny bit more forward and not as easy going.
Anyone else evaluated this little explored area of tonearm tweaking?
Tonights tweaking is centred around altering the tension on the grub screws holding my arm pillar from moving. I was recently reading an article that was reviewing a tonearm and it mentioned altering the tension on tonearm pillar grub screws and the effect it had on SQ.
I am finding that easing off and just nipping up the grub screws gives the most satisfying presentation. Tightening very tight does seem to have a negative effect in that there seems to be a very slight hardening to the sound and the music is a tiny bit more forward and not as easy going.
Anyone else evaluated this little explored area of tonearm tweaking?
I would have thought any effect would also depend on how the arm base is attached to the turntable arm board.
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2023, 19:25
Tonights tweaking is centred around altering the tension on the grub screws holding my arm pillar from moving. I was recently reading an article that was reviewing a tonearm and it mentioned altering the tension on tonearm pillar grub screws and the effect it had on SQ.
I am finding that easing off and just nipping up the grub screws gives the most satisfying presentation. Tightening very tight does seem to have a negative effect in that there seems to be a very slight hardening to the sound and the music is a tiny bit more forward and not as easy going.
Anyone else evaluated this little explored area of tonearm tweaking?
Never tried it. I would suspect that the most important thing is keeping the tonearm vertical and held under tension. I should imagine the tonearm pillar could effect VTA and rake angle if not held vertically. Otherwise, knock yourself out! I expect a 10,000 word essay before tomorrow with respects yo your findings, and it must be fully referenced :eek::lol:
Never tried it. I would suspect that the most important thing is keeping the tonearm vertical and held under tension. I should imagine the tonearm pillar could effect VTA and rake angle if not held vertically. Otherwise, knock yourself out! I expect a 10,000 word essay before tomorrow with respects yo your findings, and it must be fully referenced :eek::lol:
HAHA don't tempt me!
The arm pillar is on a screw thread that raises and lowers VTA but this is locked when you tighten up the arm pillar grub screws. The whole pillar is held in a collar that is attached to the top of the plinth so the this becomes the armboard I suppose. So if there is any vibration on the plinth this can be transferred to the collar and thus the tonearm pillar. The grub screws tighten and lock this all up and its all connected so vibration either from the tonearm down the pillar into the plinth or vice versa could have an effect.
I could go on........:lol:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52935867073_3bb0af30b7_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oDLa2k)315F3B70-E786-4053-B317-5C1ED58D5FBF (https://flic.kr/p/2oDLa2k) by , on Flickr
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2023, 19:39
I would have thought any effect would also depend on how the arm base is attached to the turntable arm board.
Good call Barry, I attach my SME 3012 tonearm base to a Panzerholz SME cutout that I made to try and damp any vibrations getting into the 3012 tonearm. This is fully attached to my birch ply plinth. The whole thing then sits of spiked feet which sit on a Townshend Seismic plinth, located on a bamboo shelf!
Pigmy Pony
29-05-2023, 19:40
Does that wire that you have with JMW tonearms not have some bearing on the arm's performance? Did I read that somewhere or did I dream it?
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2023, 19:44
HAHA don't tempt me!
The arm pillar is on a screw thread that raises and lowers VTA but this is locked when you tighten up the arm pillar grub screws. The whole pillar is held in a collar that is attached to the top of the plinth so the this becomes the armboard I suppose. So if there is any vibration on the plinth this can be transferred to the collar and thus the tonearm pillar. The grub screws tighten and lock this all up and its all connected so vibration either from the tonearm down the pillar into the plinth or vice versa could have an effect.
I could go on........:lol:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52935867073_3bb0af30b7_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oDLa2k)315F3B70-E786-4053-B317-5C1ED58D5FBF (https://flic.kr/p/2oDLa2k) by , on Flickr
You could try my solution which is to create a tonearm mount under the tonearm itself, mines Panzerholz. You can't really do not much with the brub screws apart from maybe using an extremely small rubber collar around them?? You could damp directly under where the tonearm lives with silent coat on your TT (be a bugger to get off). You've also got to think about the tonearm cable going into your tonearm, this will transmit vibration from the croft into your TT. The list goes on....
Does that wire that you have with JMW tonearms not have some bearing on the arm's performance? Did I read that somewhere or did I dream it?
Yes Steve the wire coming out the top is the tonearm cable (Discovery brand on these early Scout TT) It can be twisted slightly to give you a small amount of anti skate and can therefore physically affect the sound. It is quite sensitive as the tonearm is a unipivot and it doesn't take much to knock its performance one way way or another.
Pigmy Pony
29-05-2023, 20:12
I always thought that cable was part of what made the turntable look cool, but then I'm a bit strange that way :)
I always thought that cable was part of what made the turntable look cool, but then I'm a bit strange that way :)
:cool:
I suggest you follow the Linn school of arm/cartridge installation: tighten everything until the threads strip, then slacken off a quarter turn. :lol:
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2023, 20:31
Jim have you tried a Panzerholz spacer bewteen the 2M and the tonearm? Probably a worthwhile mod for stopping most vibration getting into the cartridge from the tonearm?
Linn's argument is that excess energy that has not been used to generate an electrical output by the cartridge, should be given an unimpeded mechanical path so it can be absorbed by the mass of the armboard/turntable.
On the other hand, such an unimpeded path might allow vibration from the turntable passing back into the arm and cartridge.
I think it depends on the cartridge and on the turntable.
Vibration control is absolutely everything when it concerns turntables as by their nature they work on the principles of vibration ie stylus in the groove, however all other vibrations either physical or airborne should be controlled so as not to influence in a detrimental way the information produced by the stylus. To this end I am always assessing vibration in and around my turntable and the only way I do this is by trial and error tweaking anything that can be tweaked or looking at the environment and materials the TT sits on or is supported by.
Actual evaluation of the turntable components and their interaction is an area I have now only really started to think about in detail and experiment with so all suggestions are welcome. I know you have looked at this area yourself Andy so any recommendations will be great. I will continue with just tweaking the original components first to see what happens.
Just on the subject of grub screws holding the tonearm pillar secure I do know some folk have experimented with rubber nosed screws so this maybe my next trial. As with everything you just have to try, listen and determine whether something works in a positive way or not but when I think of all the possible areas that can affect vibrations from the stylus in a turntable there are many.
I know that manufacturers do take a lot of this into account when they are developing and building turntables but that maybe just to their ears. After all I have found some serious faults which I would not have done many times with turntables which affect SQ.
Just an interesting read on turntable set up and possible areas that could be a problem.
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/turntable-system-set-up/
AJSki2fly
30-05-2023, 10:48
Just an interesting read on turntable set up and possible areas that could be a problem.
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/turntable-system-set-up/
I had a read, and the cartridge set up was interesting. My Benz-Micr0 LP-S can run at 1.8-2.2gm tracking force, several site recommend 1.8gm, I have run it at just over 1.8gm, but the article prompted me to increase the force to 2.0gm, I checked VTA and alignment at the same time and these are still spot on. My initial thoughts, just listening to 2 tracks, on the increased tracking weight is that there is an improvement, what I can only described as tonally better balanced, and a little more warmth in the presentation.
I will have a longer listen and see if I can give a better description.
I would like to mess around with the VTA again after reading the possible improvements I could achieve but I feel I may run round in circles as different record thickness affects VTA and the 2M black is a nightmare to get spot on anyway. I will have a listen at different tracking weights however as I have stuck at just under 1.6g VTF for sometime and it would be interesting to know if it sounds better at slightly higher or lower VTF. Ortofon recommend 1.5g?
karma1967
30-05-2023, 11:51
have a good look at this video mate,
its a game changer for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ApPo7htUg
you really need a microsope to check sra/vta but after watching the vid a few times id focus on azimuth and zenith angles,thats where the big gains are.
have a good look at this video mate,
its a game changer for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ApPo7htUg
you really need a microsope to check sra/vta but after watching the vid a few times id focus on azimuth and zenith angles,thats where the big gains are.
I will check it out. Thanks
I had a read, and the cartridge set up was interesting. My Benz-Micr0 LP-S can run at 1.8-2.2gm tracking force, several site recommend 1.8gm, I have run it at just over 1.8gm, but the article prompted me to increase the force to 2.0gm, I checked VTA and alignment at the same time and these are still spot on. My initial thoughts, just listening to 2 tracks, on the increased tracking weight is that there is an improvement, what I can only described as tonally better balanced, and a little more warmth in the presentation.
I will have a longer listen and see if I can give a better description.
I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.
I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.
i usually did same oddly. dunno why but i agree that i'd rather it be slightly heavy than too light
Yes, I have followed that advice for the last 50 years with cartridges costing anywhere between £15 and over £1,000.
I suggest you follow the Linn school of arm/cartridge installation: tighten everything until the threads strip, then slacken off a quarter turn. :lol:
Yeah I remember that was the mantra.
AJSki2fly
31-05-2023, 07:03
I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.
That makes sense. I’ve ordered a calibrated digital VTF gauge that’s supposed to be accurate. Once here I’ll try 2.1g and back off 0.1g and see where I like the SQ best, if there is any difference.
AJSki2fly
31-05-2023, 11:13
I was told by a reputable music and audio shop that one should start with a VTF 0.25g below the maximum recommended value, and then experiment with with smaller values (in say 0.25g steps).
Contrary to expectation, more wear will occur to both record and stylus if the cartridge undertracks.
The Pro-Ject Digital VTF gauge arrived this morning, not expensive £20, it comes with calibration weight, which I checked and is spot on 5gm, the spec says it is accurate to 0.01gm and will not deviate.
I first calibrated the gauge as in the instructions and then before doing anything else checked the existing tracking weight which I thought to be set at around 2.0gm using the balance gauge, the Pro-Ject gauge indicated 2.18gm, so quite a bit higher than I thought I had set. No big issue as still within the recommended 1.8-2.2gm tracking force advised. I did check the tracking force again with the anti-skate removed, this in fact added 0.15mg, so a reading of 2.33gm. So the effect of anti-skate devices on tracking force is possibly something to consider when setting up a cartridge, I seem to recall reading this somewhere once.
Next I adjusted the tracking weight to the originally intended 2.0gm, and then had a listen to two favourite test listening tracks. Result was a subtle improvement in clarity. Having watched the video posted previously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ApPo7htUg I decided to completely check on the cartridge set up, playing particular attention to VTA, azimuth, and cartridge alignment(Zenith Error). I had heard that a stylus could be incorrectly mounted at the wrong angle causing 'Zenith Error" but had not really understood this before. Obviously without a very powerful microscope it is impossible to determine if this is the case or not, however using the starting point of getting the cartridge perfectly aligned so that it is parallel with a set up gauge is where I started. What I found was it was minutely out of alignment, having adjust this I set VTA, and azimuth and rechecked everything, then set VTF. I listened to my two favourite test tracks Ravi Shankar - 'Tala Rasa Ranga' on Portrait of Genius and Eva Cassidy - 'Fields of Gold' on Nightbird, what I noticed was a slightly more focused soundstage, and more top end clarity.
Maybe I was lucky and just happened to get the cartridge set up better, who knows?, I certainly think that if a cartridge doesn't sound quite right that minute changes to the alignment that improve the VTA and Zenith can be worthwhile, but this can be a very tricky and an exacting process, requiring patience and very minute adjustments and listening after each to see if it improves.
I wonder if anyone has had their stylus checked to determine how far off it is mounted?
Having done the above this then lead me to mount my Goldring 2500 MI cartridge which was already on another head shell. I have been pleased with it in the past but always returned to the Benz-Micro as I felt some detail was missing with the Goldring. I carefully checked the cartridge alignment in the head shell and this was slight off, once on the arm I went through the complete set up process, checking all alignments and setting a 1.8gm VTF. On went the previous two test listening tracks and I was immediately taken aback, the Goldring had come alive in the top end, detail that previously I thought was missing was now present and the soundstage was great.
So to sum up I think that spending time to carefully get your cartridge right is very important, I doubt it matters how much it costs, probably a badly set up expensive one will sound no better than a perfectly set up cartridge a 1/10 the price. If it does not sound right then adjust it by very small increments and listen carefully to it using easy to listen to tracks with clear instrumentation, and highs and lows, rock music is probably not the best for this, and use a clear female vocal recording to listen for sibilance and try and minimise it. I've certainly learnt something and the result is very well worth the effort.
The Goldring is staying on the turntable for now as I am rather enjoying it.
Great account of your trials and tribulations with cartridge set up there Adrian. I have to agree that even small changes in any of the set parameters does have a significant effect on SQ but as you mentioned best to move in very small amounts until you hear what sounds right to you. Add in the complication of vinyl thickness and it can be a bit frustrating but once your in the ball park I don't hit this is too much to worry about unless your really anal about cartridge set up with different weights of vinyl.
I am going to have a few sessions myself in the next few days to see if I can eliminate some of the slightly negative aspects I am hearing currently which are prominent in the midrange, namely a bit of hardness and forward presentation. Not sure this can be resolved by stylus set up but the article I linked to suggested this could be the result of incorrect VTA so I will have a go.:rolleyes:
AJSki2fly
31-05-2023, 11:58
Great account of your trials and tribulations with cartridge set up there Adrian. I have to agree that even small changes in any of the set parameters does have a significant effect on SQ but as you mentioned best to move in very small amounts until you hear what sounds right to you. Add in the complication of vinyl thickness and it can be a bit frustrating but once your in the ball park I don't hit this is too much to worry about unless your really anal about cartridge set up with different weights of vinyl.
I am going to have a few sessions myself in the next few days to see if I can eliminate some of the slightly negative aspects I am hearing currently which are prominent in the midrange, namely a bit of hardness and forward presentation. Not sure this can be resolved by stylus set up but the article I linked to suggested this could be the result of incorrect VTA so I will have a go.:rolleyes:
Thanks James, as you and others may be aware I listen to my system and LPs a lot so I think my ears have become quite accustomed to how it sounds, for good or bad, so I was quite surprised by findings, as I said I though I had cartridge set up licked, but obviously not, hitting the sweet spot is not easy, but can be achieved with knowledge and patience.
With respect to VTA and its impact on SQ, I have definitely experienced this, one TT and arm seemed to be more effected than others I have had. I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, the effect was exaggerated due to poor arm isolation from the platter and the platter had resonance issues. So lowering the arm as little as 0.5-1mm at the rear would result in what could be described as a bloated sound in the low registers, raise it up other way and the the bloat went but top end became forward and toppy, with sibilance made worse (possibly what you describe). I went back to basics and set the are height so that the head shell was dead level/parallel to the record, and set everything else up to spec, and test listened. After trying dealing in several VTF settings I found the best for me was with the arm raised at the rear very slightly by about 0.25mm.
With my current TT/arm I do not have the same issues and with the 3 main cartridges I use a perfectly level tonearm/head shell which seems to work for them all.
As you maybe aware I am a long time sufferer of the 2M Black and have spent years tweaking the alignment of this cartridge and definitely notice the difference VTA makes with the radical Shibata stylus. However I have come to the conclusion that it is probably best set up with the cartridge parallel to the record surface for all round listening enjoyment. Moving it into any other angle does probably find the sweet spot for stylus rake angle but it may not sound great on all records or to my ear.
karma1967
31-05-2023, 15:00
set it to 92 degrees and leave it imo.
karma1967
31-05-2023, 15:03
Thanks James, as you and others may be aware I listen to my system and LPs a lot so I think my ears have become quite accustomed to how it sounds, for good or bad, so I was quite surprised by findings, as I said I though I had cartridge set up licked, but obviously not, hitting the sweet spot is not easy, but can be achieved with knowledge and patience.
With respect to VTA and its impact on SQ, I have definitely experienced this, one TT and arm seemed to be more effected than others I have had. I came to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, the effect was exaggerated due to poor arm isolation from the platter and the platter had resonance issues. So lowering the arm as little as 0.5-1mm at the rear would result in what could be described as a bloated sound in the low registers, raise it up other way and the the bloat went but top end became forward and toppy, with sibilance made worse (possibly what you describe). I went back to basics and set the are height so that the head shell was dead level/parallel to the record, and set everything else up to spec, and test listened. After trying dealing in several VTF settings I found the best for me was with the arm raised at the rear very slightly by about 0.25mm.
With my current TT/arm I do not have the same issues and with the 3 main cartridges I use a perfectly level tonearm/head shell which seems to work for them all.
if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.
AJSki2fly
31-05-2023, 15:38
if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.
My head shells are not offset, I think, but please explain?
karma1967
31-05-2023, 16:28
hold out your right arm with your hand flat and pointing to the right,bending at the elbow drop your arm down and you will see your hand tilting,its the same with a tonearm.
Hey Adrian I have that Ravi Shanker album - Portrait of a Genius - It has been with me for the last 40 years and is a favourite. The recording is stunning and the music is sublime!
Pigmy Pony
01-06-2023, 07:21
Bloody hippies.
I think attitudes changed when The Path to Spiritual Enlightenment was renamed the A500.
AJSki2fly
01-06-2023, 12:14
if you have an off set headshell then you are also changing azimuth,that impacts the sound more than a 0.25mm of vta adjustment to vta.
My head shells are not offset, I think, but please explain?
hold out your right arm with your hand flat and pointing to the right,bending at the elbow drop your arm down and you will see your hand tilting,its the same with a tonearm.
Sorry I was talking a crock of poo, of course my head shell has an offset in the normal meaning of a tonearm design, I was having a brain fart moment.
I still don't get what you mean it causing azimuth change, maybe I am being thick.
If the head shell/cartridge mounting platform is set up parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in the record groove, then surely as the stylus moves across the record surface the cartridge will remain vertically aligned at 90 degrees to the record, in other words the Azimuth will remain stable as set. Do you mean the Horozontal Tracking Angle will alter, and that the stylus will only be perfectly aligned to the records glove at the two null points as the arm/stylus is set up to?
Lawrence001
01-06-2023, 12:34
I for one look forward to being old, incontinent and a burden on my Family.
One down already, two to go.
...Not saying which one mind.But you're 35 and no trouble to your relatives.
karma1967
01-06-2023, 12:45
Sorry I was talking a crock of poo, of course my head shell has an offset in the normal meaning of a tonearm design, I was having a brain fart moment.
I still don't get what you mean it causing azimuth change, maybe I am being thick.
If the head shell/cartridge mounting platform is set up parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in the record groove, then surely as the stylus moves across the record surface the cartridge will remain vertically aligned at 90 degrees to the record, in other words the Azimuth will remain stable as set. Do you mean the Horozontal Tracking Angle will alter, and that the stylus will only be perfectly aligned to the records glove at the two null points as the arm/stylus is set up to?
i mean if you set azimuth correctly and then raise or lower the tonearm at the back to adjust sra/vta you are also changing azimuth and will have to set it again. its why setting sra/vta is done first.
AJSki2fly
01-06-2023, 13:54
i mean if you set azimuth correctly and then raise or lower the tonearm at the back to adjust sra/vta you are also changing azimuth and will have to set it again. its why setting sra/vta is done first.
Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.
I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra
and
https://www.originhifi.com/blog/35567/Complete-Turntable-Set-Up-Guide?q=35567
I didn't think VTA affected Azimuth:scratch:
Azimuth is affected by everything sadly
Azimuth is affected by everything sadly
I will keep that in mind when I next have a fiddle!
AJSki2fly
01-06-2023, 15:08
Azimuth is affected by everything sadly
How? Azimuth in the context of a stylus is defined as a vertical centre line through it, looking at the front of it, and correct setting of Azimuth is so it is at a right angle to the record surface, or have I misunderstood something here?
Or is it that due to the geometry of an arm tracking across the record the angle of the head shell changes very slightly, so it may be spot in the centre of a LP but slightly out at the outer and inner edges? If this is the case then the difference to the Azimuth must be minute, and with a modern cut stylus I would have thought likely to have minimal significance?
:scratch:
karma1967
01-06-2023, 15:10
Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.
I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra
and
https://www.originhifi.com/blog/35567/Complete-Turntable-Set-Up-Guide?q=35567
it changes because your headshell and cartridge are offset to the pivot point,because they are they are moving in an arc when the tonearm goes up and down .as you rightly say correct azimuth is having the sylus tip sitting perctly in the groove,im just saying that altering your sra/vta after this will throw azimuth out.
have a look on the wally tools site,top of the google search results.
How? Azimuth in the context of a stylus is defined as a vertical centre line through it, looking at the front of it, and correct setting of Azimuth is so it is at a right angle to the record surface, or have I misunderstood something here?
Or is it that due to the geometry of an arm tracking across the record the angle of the head shell changes very slightly, so it may be spot in the centre of a LP but slightly out at the outer and inner edges? If this is the case then the difference to the Azimuth must be minute, and with a modern cut stylus I would have thought likely to have minimal significance?
:scratch:
Michael Fremer would say absolute correct Azimuth is essential as it affects the stylus reading left and right channels. To get it bang on with no guessing it would probably best to use a Fozgometer.
https://www.mcru.co.uk/product/fozgometer-v2-azimuth-range-meter/
karma1967
01-06-2023, 15:15
@ AJSki2fly
you have a pm
Varying pressure can vary crosstalk. Sad but alas true. Also as carts, stylish and suspensions etc are all put together by hand so this adds another issue to azimuth testing, especially by sight.
Varying pressure can vary crosstalk. Sad but alas true. Also as carts, stylish and suspensions etc are all put together by hand so this adds another issue to azimuth testing, especially by sight.
Then a Fozgometer would be the only absolute way knowing you have achieved perfect Azimuth.
Certainly will be one tool. There used to be a system called ..'someyhing'.magic..or magik. Need to look it up. It was a pc program and some tools that did everything under the one banner. Might not be going now tho.
The frog would be a good help I think. Azi is usually set close first then is set bang on after the others. Don't forget anti skate as it has an affect on stylus pressure etc both vertical and sideways
analog magik v2 its now called... its eyewateringly expensive tho so probably better with frog unless your a business or rih
AJSki2fly
01-06-2023, 16:26
Sorry Jamie, I still don't get it, Azimuth as I understand it is the angle of the stylus in the groove, that is when you look at the cartridge/stylus from the front, setting the azimuth is getting the stylus perfectly aligned vertically at 90 degrees to the record, that's my understanding anyway. If you adjust VTA/SRA by raising or lowering the rear of the arm, it will change the rake angle of the stylus in the groove, in perfect world you want to get as close to 92 degree SRA as possible.
I found this very informative https://www.analogplanet.com/content...rake-angle-sra
and
https://www.originhifi.com/blog/3556...-Guide?q=35567
it changes because your headshell and cartridge are offset to the pivot point,because they are they are moving in an arc when the tonearm goes up and down .as you rightly say correct azimuth is having the sylus tip sitting perctly in the groove,im just saying that altering your sra/vta after this will throw azimuth out.
have a look on the wally tools site,top of the google search results.
The very kind Jamie sent me a PM so I could call him so he could explain. Once I got the issue it is obvious what he is saying is true. I will try and explain for all to understand.
Hold your right arm out parallel to the ground with your right palm facing the ground, then bend your elbow to make a right angle to your upper arm keeping you arm level to the ground. Now cant your right hand out at the wrist to the right keeping it parallel to the ground, think of your hand as the head shell, and you arm as the tonearm. Now here is the interesting bit. Keep your hand fixed where it is and raise you elbow vertically, watch your hand as you do so, and you should see your hand rotates with your little finger going up and your thumb going down. If you lower your elbow then the opposite occurs. This demonstrates what happens when you raise and lower a tonearm at the pivot point, it creates a twist at the head shell which will alter the Azimuth, what ever it was set to. This is not immediately obvious when adjusting the arm, but this demonstration clearly highlights the issue.
So as Jamie(karma1967) rightly says if you change the VTA/SRA of your tonearm you need to reset the Azimuth afterwards to ensure that the stylus is correctly set up in the groove.
analog magik v2 its now called... its eyewateringly expensive tho so probably better with frog unless your a business or rih
I think AOS members should buy one as a group buy and pass it round.:lol:
karma1967
01-06-2023, 16:39
DONT! it will drive you absolutely mental,i borrowed one a few years back and it did my head in,too many variables and constantly changing numbers you have to make sense off. if i was to buy a tool for azimuth id go for a fozgometer for ease of use.
DONT! it will drive you absolutely mental,i borrowed one a few years back and it did my head in,too many variables and constantly changing numbers you have to make sense off. if i was to buy a tool for azimuth id go for a fozgometer for ease of use.
10 folk need to throw £45 into the hat for a Fozgometer. I wonder if Andy Rexton has one?
I think AOS members should buy one as a group buy and pass it round.:lol:
i'd rather buy the polished turd;) its a cant win scenario trying for perfection; just use your eyes and ears:D
it usually works too
karma1967
01-06-2023, 16:42
i think he bought one in the end.
i think he bought one in the end.
I had a feeling he might have one?
Wakefield Turntables
01-06-2023, 19:57
Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D
https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg
My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:
AJSki2fly
01-06-2023, 20:33
Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D
https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg
My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:
I’ve always wanted a shiny box with a needle to play with :lol:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
£450 for essentially a differential amplifier (read common or garden op-amp), a switch, and a meter! I'm sure such a device could be built for under £50.
The very kind Jamie sent me a PM so I could call him so he could explain. Once I got the issue it is obvious what he is saying is true. I will try and explain for all to understand.
Hold your right arm out parallel to the ground with your right palm facing the ground, then bend your elbow to make a right angle to your upper arm keeping you arm level to the ground. Now cant your right hand out at the wrist to the right keeping it parallel to the ground, think of your hand as the head shell, and you arm as the tonearm. Now here is the interesting bit. Keep your hand fixed where it is and raise you elbow vertically, watch your hand as you do so, and you should see your hand rotates with your little finger going up and your thumb going down. If you lower your elbow then the opposite occurs. This demonstrates what happens when you raise and lower a tonearm at the pivot point, it creates a twist at the head shell which will alter the Azimuth, what ever it was set to. This is not immediately obvious when adjusting the arm, but this demonstration clearly highlights the issue.
So as Jamie(karma1967) rightly says if you change the VTA/SRA of your tonearm you need to reset the Azimuth afterwards to ensure that the stylus is correctly set up in the groove.
That description only applies to tonearms where the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are not at right angles to a line passing through the headshell and cantilever. I know of only two makes of tonearm where this applies: SME (excluding the cast magnesium models) and Fidelity Research.
I used to wonder about this, as when the arm/cartridge rides a warp, the cartridge will 'roll' slightly counterclockwise when viewed from the front, so upsetting azimuth. However I did some calculations based on the dimensions and geometry of my SME M12-R arm and the effect on crosstalk, and even with a 5mm warp the crosstalk was insignificant.
Wakefield Turntables
01-06-2023, 21:57
£450 for essentially a differential amplifier (read common or garden op-amp), a switch, and a meter! I'm sure such a device could be built for under £50.
Your more than probably correct, however, I have one, I don't have to worry about buggering about making one and I know it works which probably adds a few less grey hairs in my beard. ;)
PS I paid nowhere near £450.
Hello Gentlemen, do you means this old thing ? :D
https://i.ibb.co/nLh5z9M/IMG-0553.jpg
My, this thread moves quickly. Yes the Fozgometer is a piece of cake to use. It works best with detachable head shells, you can still go nuts trying to set channel seperation up on fixed head shell tonearms like my SME V-12, so, I prefer using my SME 3012. You still have to pay close attention to cartridge set up, this device very very quickly enables you to see how much of a balls-up you've made. :lol:
That's the Gizmo Andy!:thumbsup:
i'd rather buy the polished turd;) its a cant win scenario trying for perfection; just use your eyes and ears:D
it usually works too
:lol:
walpurgis
02-06-2023, 06:56
'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)
Pigmy Pony
02-06-2023, 07:50
'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)
Hi, it's me!
https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.f32836d24d405baf4ae7843f373fc6f8?rik=7fXwpf3YZ6v yWw&riu=http%3a%2f%2fthedailyblog.co.nz%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2013%2f03%2fFozzie-Bear-Muppets-Teen-Spirit.jpg&ehk=aezD5yXa7dmNHXki%2fdI%2fsIQ30IfDhj3GnkhmzvnxAU 0%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
karma1967
02-06-2023, 08:20
That description only applies to tonearms where the bearings for motion in the vertical plane are not at right angles to a line passing through the headshell and cantilever. I know of only two makes of tonearm where this applies: SME (excluding the cast magnesium models) and Fidelity Research.
I used to wonder about this, as when the arm/cartridge rides a warp, the cartridge will 'roll' slightly counterclockwise when viewed from the front, so upsetting azimuth. However I did some calculations based on the dimensions and geometry of my SME M12-R arm and the effect on crosstalk, and even with a 5mm warp the crosstalk was insignificant.
By jingo i think your right barry,i've just checked my arm and if i understand correctly what you said above then a line drawn from the centre point of my bearings and at 90 degrees to them ends up running parallel to the headshell,so again if i understand correctly them my cartridge wont tilt to the left or right when moving the arm up or down.
i stand corrected said the man in the orthopedic shoes!
'Fozgometer' is an odd name. Was the device designed by a Mr. Fozgo? :)
was made by a guy called fosgate. his nickname was foz..:eyebrows:
Another way of checking Azimuth which I appreciate is a bit rough and ready is find a test track that has some extreme left and right information in the recording. This will tell you if the cartridge is tracking left and right channels well. I use Andrea Vollenweider album "The Magic Cave". At the beginning when they enter the cave you hear drops echoing in the cave which are to the extreme left and right in your speakers. Its also an amazing track if you want to hear extreme depth in a recording. Quite spooky. It will tell you a lot about your cartridge set up and is very well recorded.
AJSki2fly
02-06-2023, 11:29
Another way of checking Azimuth which I appreciate is a bit rough and ready is find a test track that has some extreme left and right information in the recording. This will tell you if the cartridge is tracking left and right channels well. I use Andrea Vollenweider album "The Magic Cave". At the beginning when they enter the cave you hear drops echoing in the cave which are to the extreme left and right in your speakers. Its also an amazing track if you want to hear extreme depth in a recording. Quite spooky. It will tell you a lot about your cartridge set up and is very well recorded.
that sounds interesting is it "Andreas Vollenweider – Caverna Magica - (...Under The Tree - In The Cave...)"?
that sounds interesting is it "Andreas Vollenweider – Caverna Magica - (...Under The Tree - In The Cave...)"?
Yes that's the one. There is a piece about 10 minutes into the record where he is just strumming his Electric Harp and it sounds just awesome.
By jingo i think your right barry,i've just checked my arm and if i understand correctly what you said above then a line drawn from the centre point of my bearings and at 90 degrees to them ends up running parallel to the headshell,so again if i understand correctly them my cartridge wont tilt to the left or right when moving the arm up or down.
i stand corrected said the man in the orthopedic shoes!
The headshell/cartridge will still roll conterclockwise as the stylus rides a record warp, but the effect is very, very small.
I've just found my calculations based on dimensional information for the SME M2-12R arm, and for the case of a record warp of 5mm, the error in azimuth is 0.4°, implying a channel imbalance of 0.12dB, or a crosstalk of -37dB. As I said utterly insignificant - which I presume, is why SME and FR didn't worry about it.
Using a Fozgometer will tell if the electrical signal from your cartridge is balanced left to right. It does not say if the stylus sits in the groove correctly or if the azimuth/VTA is correct. You are measuring voltage with a gadget not alignment.
Wakefield Turntables
04-06-2023, 08:39
Using a Fozgometer will tell if the electrical signal from your cartridge is balanced left to right. It does not say if the stylus sits in the groove correctly or if the azimuth/VTA is correct. You are measuring voltage with a gadget not alignment.
Yep, it's just another gadget to try and get the cartridge set up, there is no perfect way of setting the cartridge up, some things just make it easier than others.
the point of a frog is to achieve aproximately equal crosstalk.
AJSki2fly
04-06-2023, 09:12
the point of a frog is to achieve aproximately equal crosstalk.
Is that across a pond? :D
Wakefield Turntables
04-06-2023, 15:39
Using a Fozgometer will tell if the electrical signal from your cartridge is balanced left to right. It does not say if the stylus sits in the groove correctly or if the azimuth/VTA is correct. You are measuring voltage with a gadget not alignment.
the point of a frog is to achieve aproximately equal crosstalk.
Easier than using a scope.
karma1967
04-06-2023, 18:10
this makes sense to me.
https://youtu.be/7TDiJzA-aZU
Good stuff Jamie, so measuring azimuth electrically (Fozgometer) would appear to be the way to go and not visually with a microscope.
Makes very good sense to me too. After all alignment of the stylus in the groove is all about creating an equal electrical signal in both channels.
Education http://korfaudio.com/blog36
Yep, it's just another gadget to try and get the cartridge set up, there is no perfect way of setting the cartridge up, some things just make it easier than others.
:thumbsup:
karma1967
04-06-2023, 19:36
all you need is (according to korf) some sort of instrument or software that can measure total harmonic distortion (THD) and plot accumulated spectral traces.
so you have 2 experts stating the opposite to each other lol
ok so as your ears are the final arbiter id say try both and pick what sound best.
My azimuth set up is delivering spectacular sonics this evening so I am certainly not going to mess with it.:)
karma1967
04-06-2023, 19:55
ah but just 1 more tweek might just be the ONE! :lol:
ah but just 1 more tweek might just be the ONE! :lol:
There's always one more tweak.:)
At the moment I am feeling if it aint broke why try and fix it?:lol:
Wakefield Turntables
04-06-2023, 20:28
Whatever sounds best, how hard can this hobby be?
Whatever sounds best, how hard can this hobby be?
This is where the technical/measurements philosophy to hifi can get in the way of "real world" listening and how you perceive the sound from any change you make to a cartridge set up, turntable isolation, valves, room set up, equipment change, cables etc etc.
Does knowing something is technically perfect automatically mean it sounds perfect? No. Amplifiers can have high levels of distortion but still sound great. The VTA of your cartridge may not achieve 92 degrees but still sound great. Speakers can be positioned in numerous ways and can sound great to your own ears.
I suppose the theoretical perfect set up of anything is a good place to start but I have found my own listening preferences have often over ridden the ideal set up of many aspects of my system.
As you say Andy "Whatever sounds best " should be the mantra by which we put anything together or set anything up. I think our own individual hearing is definitely the best final arbiter.:)
Wakefield Turntables
06-06-2023, 18:41
Something is only theoretically perfect until it's proven otherwise, how can an imperfect science of setting up a hi-fi be perfect?
This hobby just goes round in circles, hence my very un-science based opinion of "whatever sounds best". :)
The VTA of your cartridge may not achieve 92 degrees but still sound great.
I assume you meant the SRA, and not the VTA?
Otherwise I largely agree with your approach.
I assume you meant the SRA, and not the VTA?
Otherwise I largely agree with your approach.
Ah yes SRA.
Just seen a new advert for an all Electric Lexus and part of the commercial had a turntable in the background. I thought how ironic, something from the ancient past of technology but still very valid and present and an all electric vehicle - the future.... well maybe. The car industry would like us to think so so they can make loads more money getting us to replace all our vehicles with electric, a bit like the audio industry tried to do with CD and look where that ended!??
It is really a money making exercise by the car industry and the environmental aspects are questionable. They want us to scrap all our old cars which took a lot of earths resources to manufacture and replace them with vehicles which have probably taken much more of the earths resources, especially in battery production! Oh yes but electricity is cleaner don't think about the production and mining industry needed to manufacture them. The last time I looked it would take many years running an electric vehicle to break even with running a petrol car before the environment benefits start to come to fruition.
But....the batteries don't last forever and some need to be replaced after 10 years so just when you thought I will wait until second hand prices bring an electric vehicle down to an affordable price you will need to replace the batteries at £10,000 a pop and more precious earth resources!
How many CD players are now languishing replaced by new turntables, a technology that should never have been replaced in my book. Maybe we should have just kept our old decks and skipped CD. I wish I had.:)
Sorry for the environmental rant but I sometimes need to try and rationalise what is happening in the super capitalist throw away society we have become?
I'm the opposite wish I'd skipped vinyl and gone straight to cd.
In retrospect though, not at the time. And I wouldn't have all those now really valuable records I suppose.
Electric cars don't make much sense right now on any levels except pollution and noise. No wonder take up rate is declining. I think they will improve a lot in next 10 years though.
Would have been an interesting concept there if CD had been invented first and then vinyl came after. Hard to get your head round but a curious thought of what if...?
That maybe how it appears to some young folk?:lol:
Would have been an interesting concept there if CD had been invented first and then vinyl came after. Hard to get your head round but a curious thought of what if...?
That maybe how it appears to some young folk?:lol:
Thing is CD sales drop off a cliff after about 2005 https://www.statista.com/chart/17244/us-music-revenue-by-format/#:~:text=As%20the%20following%20chart%2C%20based%2 0on%20historical%20RIAA,particularly%20long%20and% 20lucrative%20for%20the%20music%20industry.
So for anyone under about thirty, CD is just as old fashioned as vinyl - but without the big artwork.
But on that graph you can just see CD sales starting to climb again.
walpurgis
09-06-2023, 07:27
Not looking good for 8-Track :).
Cassettes tapes are on the up.:)
You just can't beat the smell of vinyl! :lol:
brian2957
09-06-2023, 10:45
You just can't beat the smell of vinyl! :lol:
Yup sniffi it all the time :lol:
brian2957
09-06-2023, 11:07
Yup, older the better :eyebrows: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134596316183?hash=item1f5690cc17:g:h4MAAOSwBclkQqY J&amdata
Wakefield Turntables
09-06-2023, 15:01
Especially old vinyl!
Yep, especially when bought from charity shops. How come everything that's bought from charity shops has a specific, "smell" ?
Yup, older the better :eyebrows: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134596316183?hash=item1f5690cc17:g:h4MAAOSwBclkQqY J&amdata
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/h4MAAOSwBclkQqYJ/s-l1600.jpg
Right up your Musical Alley auld Yin! :D
My early pressing of John Martyn's Solid Air has a strong whiff of hash off it?
Bet that sleeve could tell a story or two...
AJSki2fly
09-06-2023, 20:21
Just seen a new advert for an all Electric Lexus and part of the commercial had a turntable in the background. I thought how ironic, something from the ancient past of technology but still very valid and present and an all electric vehicle - the future.... well maybe. The car industry would like us to think so so they can make loads more money getting us to replace all our vehicles with electric, a bit like the audio industry tried to do with CD and look where that ended!??
It is really a money making exercise by the car industry and the environmental aspects are questionable. They want us to scrap all our old cars which took a lot of earths resources to manufacture and replace them with vehicles which have probably taken much more of the earths resources, especially in battery production! Oh yes but electricity is cleaner don't think about the production and mining industry needed to manufacture them. The last time I looked it would take many years running an electric vehicle to break even with running a petrol car before the environment benefits start to come to fruition.
But....the batteries don't last forever and some need to be replaced after 10 years so just when you thought I will wait until second hand prices bring an electric vehicle down to an affordable price you will need to replace the batteries at £10,000 a pop and more precious earth resources!
How many CD players are now languishing replaced by new turntables, a technology that should never have been replaced in my book. Maybe we should have just kept our old decks and skipped CD. I wish I had.:)
Sorry for the environmental rant but I sometimes need to try and rationalise what is happening in the super capitalist throw away society we have become?
Sorry James, you are wrong as about BEVs. I am running mine at 3p per mile and can prove it, that’s equivalent to £1.20 for 40 miles which would be £6.80 for a ICE car. Yes we have solar to charge in spring summer but even charging at night cheap rate it would only be around 6p a mile.
As for mining if you check it out around 70% is iron ore used in nearly everything we make, 20% coal and the rest is rare metals.
A lithium ion battery has about 0,5% Lithium in it, they are at least 95% re-cyclable, there are Teslas in USA and other parts of the world still running having done 350k miles.
So called ECO fuel is bollocks however it is made, including the Porsche stuff, that produces hydrogen when made (which is fine) but also lots off methane which a 80 time worse the CO2 for green house warming.
The coal/oil and ICE car industry are very adapt at putting rubbish out, smoke and mirrors, it’s like the tabboco industry denying that smoking gives you ling cancer.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/h4MAAOSwBclkQqYJ/s-l1600.jpg
Right up your Musical Alley auld Yin! :D
78s were not pressed in vinyl.:ner:
Sorry James, you are wrong as about BEVs. I am running mine at 3p per mile and can prove it, that’s equivalent to £1.20 for 40 miles which would be £6.80 for a ICE car. Yes we have solar to charge in spring summer but even charging at night cheap rate it would only be around 6p a mile.
As for mining if you check it out around 70% is iron ore used in nearly everything we make, 20% coal and the rest is rare metals.
A lithium ion battery has about 0,5% Lithium in it, they are at least 95% re-cyclable, there are Teslas in USA and other parts of the world still running having done 350k miles.
So called ECO fuel is bollocks however it is made, including the Porsche stuff, that produces hydrogen when made (which is fine) but also lots off methane which a 80 time worse the CO2 for green house warming.
The coal/oil and ICE car industry are very adapt at putting rubbish out, smoke and mirrors, it’s like the tabboco industry denying that smoking gives you ling cancer.
Just don't believe the hype.:)
im getting 5.5 miles per kwh currently on mine. charge at home, but no special rate as its not worth it for me as i dont do a lot of miles. still cheaper and more convenient than petrol. ice has advantage on range still tho, but again most folk really dont do silly high miles each day.
for those concentrating on the cost/benefit of the fuel charge consider that the electric car is considerably more expensive than the ICE equivalent and work out if you are doing enough miles to even reach the break even point over the lifetime of the vehicle, let alone surpass it.
for those concentrating on the cost/benefit of the fuel charge consider that the electric car is considerably more expensive than the ICE equivalent and work out if you are doing enough miles to even reach the break even point over the lifetime of the vehicle, let alone surpass it.
very true, although there are other considerations for folk too.. for me as a lease it doesnt really make much difference and i got a home charger free too..
brian2957
10-06-2023, 08:26
78s were not pressed in vinyl.:ner:
Still good for a sniff or two :eyebrows:
78s were not pressed in vinyl.:ner:
Don't step on my Jimmy Shands... :D
Just don't get good shellac since the War.
Brian will confirm, he was there.
Don't step on my Jimmy Shands... :D
got a case of 78's in house. not great nice mind but were ok on my wind up with nail needle:eyebrows:
got a case of 78's in house. not great nice mind but were ok on my wind up with nail needle:eyebrows:
Don't make 'em like they used to Grant.
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/620d5556ff84404c76868687/883f2bc6-335e-4a15-bae3-15d91db6ad6f/edison+9.22.1.jpg
Don't make 'em like they used to Grant.
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/620d5556ff84404c76868687/883f2bc6-335e-4a15-bae3-15d91db6ad6f/edison+9.22.1.jpg
old cylinder player that.. very nice one too.. they spun at 160 rpm
Might be the next big revival!:lol:
Might be the next big revival!:lol:
have you had a go on one? They're diabolical. It's a wonder recorded music ever caught on.
I mean seriously. I'd rather listen to an Amstrad playing a Beautiful South bootleg on cassette tape.
Was fully on board with You Martin till the Beautiful South part...
Dark Days.
Was fully on board Martin till the Beautiful South bit..
Dark Days.
:D
have you had a go on one? They're diabolical. It's a wonder recorded music ever caught on.
I mean seriously. I'd rather listen to an Amstrad playing a Beautiful South bootleg on cassette tape.
Never heard or seen one in the flesh. Never had any Amstrad gear either but I expect there is a fetish for it on some forum somewhere?:lol:
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