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Wakefield Turntables
25-02-2023, 19:52
Only 4!
I already have 5 amps as a backup solution. I should thin the spares down a bit…
I have 9!
still have a couple upstairs.. old stuff one a 110v jap job... never used.
I have 9!
What do you have Barry?
walpurgis
26-02-2023, 08:32
I haven't counted mine :).
I haven't counted mine :).
I've also lost track of how many I have. I can see seven just from where I am sat now, plus some pre-amps. And there's more upstairs :rolleyes:
Pigmy Pony
26-02-2023, 13:16
I've also lost track of how many I have. I can see seven just from where I am sat now, plus some pre-amps. And there's more upstairs :rolleyes:
I bet you say that to all the girls.
What do you have Barry?
Let me think:
1 pair of Mark Levinson ML-2 Class A monoblocks
1 pair of Quad 510 monobocks
1 pair of Quad 405s, which have been 'monoblocked' and upgraded to Keith Snook level 5, and with improved power supply components
2 Quad 405-2 stereo amps
1 Quad 405-1 stereo amp, upgraded to -2
1 Quad 520f stereo amp
1 Cambridge P50 integrated stereo amp
1 Crown/Amcron D60 stereo power amp
(and an Amptastic Mini-T class D amp)
Lots of Quad gear, I owned a fair bit myself including the 405 then 405-2 finally ending up with a 606. Were the 510 mono blocks more for professional studio use?
Lots of Quad gear, I owned a fair bit myself including the 405 then 405-2 finally ending up with a 606. Were the 510 mono blocks more for professional studio use?
Yes - they are an interesting design in having a balanced line transformer input and a transformer output, so by selecting the appropriate tapping, one can match the maximum ouput voltage to the speaker impedance. Furthermore, since the input and outputs are isolated, by using various series/parallel combination on the outputs, up to 8 units can be 'stacked' to source a maximimum of 1000W.
As other Members here will concur, I am a bit of a Quad 'fan': having 6 of their tuners as well as a couple of their preamps.
The room acoustics had taken a back seat recently as I have been contemplating building more panels incorporating some art work rather than plain material. This has meant me looking for suitable material that incorporates Art work and fits with the Mid Century Modern design of the listening room.
At last I have found just the right material I need to build my first Art Acoustic panel which will be a fair bit larger than the others I have manufactured. Need to build a bespoke frame first so off to Wickes for some timber tomorrow. Material may take a while to arrive as unfortunately its coming from USA. Found a fantastic site specialising in material that has just the right period design so may be purchasing more in the future.
Excited about this next panel. If I can pull it off it will allow me to turn out as many "approved" panels as I need and indeed I might produce some Art work for other parts of the house. Material arrives mid March so hopefully I will have something to hang up fairly soon.
some ideas here for the art https://www.wayfair.co.uk/World-Menagerie--Japanese-Cherry-Canvas-5-Panel-Room-Divider-MaEY6617-L250-K~LZDX5506.html?
Don't know if any of it is to your taste but I quite like the Japanese-style designs. I think something like that would go with the rest of your room.
I've also lost track of how many I have. I can see seven just from where I am sat now, plus some pre-amps. And there's more upstairs :rolleyes:
That reminds me, I have three more amps 'upstairs' that I had forgotten about:
1 pair of Quad 50E monoblock amplifier
1 Quad 303
1 Quad 303K (a 303 but with the input, output and mains connectors replaced with XLR types)
So 13 in total. :doh:
some ideas here for the art https://www.wayfair.co.uk/World-Menagerie--Japanese-Cherry-Canvas-5-Panel-Room-Divider-MaEY6617-L250-K~LZDX5506.html?
Don't know if any of it is to your taste but I quite like the Japanese-style designs. I think something like that would go with the rest of your room.
Yes I like a fair bit of Japanese design too but mine will be Mid century modern which is quite different.
I was all set to pop out to Wickes to obtain materials for next panel when I noticed someone selling exactly what I was going to build at half price which was £10.
Couldn't get the wood and brackets etc I needed to build one at that price so that has saved all the me a job.
brian2957
28-02-2023, 14:32
Got a link please James :)
Pigmy Pony
28-02-2023, 16:52
some ideas here for the art https://www.wayfair.co.uk/World-Menagerie--Japanese-Cherry-Canvas-5-Panel-Room-Divider-MaEY6617-L250-K~LZDX5506.html?
Don't know if any of it is to your taste but I quite like the Japanese-style designs. I think something like that would go with the rest of your room.
How about something more relaxing, like this:
https://litb-cgis.rightinthebox.com/images/640x640/202109/bps/product/inc/mqnaro1631617489402.jpg
And you can have it big enough to cover an entire wall.
How about something more relaxing, like this:
https://litb-cgis.rightinthebox.com/images/640x640/202109/bps/product/inc/mqnaro1631617489402.jpg
And you can have it big enough to cover an entire wall.
That may well happen!:lol:
How about something more relaxing, like this:
https://litb-cgis.rightinthebox.com/images/640x640/202109/bps/product/inc/mqnaro1631617489402.jpg
And you can have it big enough to cover an entire wall.
I like that. I think it's a replica of the flag they were flying when they bombed Pearl Harbour.
Pigmy Pony
28-02-2023, 20:29
I like that. I think it's a replica of the flag they were flying when they bombed Pearl Harbour.
It's also a replica of my bum the morning after my chicken madras.
I quite like the design, I might get a smaller one if I'm allowed :) They do various sizes, and cost from about a tenner to about £25 for the 3 metre jobbie. I just google images Japanese anime art.
Both the Rising Sun Flag (as in the above poster) and the Hinomaru (the simple red disc on a white background) were adopted in 1870 by the new Meiji government.
The former became the official flag of the Japanese Army (and later Navy, as well), and the latter the national flag.
Pigmy Pony
01-03-2023, 07:51
Both the Rising Sun Flag (as in the above poster) and the Hinomaru (the simple red disc on a white background) were adopted in 1870 by the new Meiji government.
The former became the official flag of the Japanese Army (and later Navy, as well), and the latter the national flag.
That's the beauty of this forum James, always an education... If you went into Sevenoaks or Peter Tyson's and steered the conversation towards the official flag of the Japanese armed forces, they'd look at you like you weren't right in the head :doh: But here it's perfectly normal :)
Yes indeed, the abstract and bizarre make it all more interesting.
Glad to be of service. ;)
Looks like the room acoustic treatment is catching on!:)
https://darko.audio/2023/02/the-jaw-dropping-results-of-a-vicoustic-installation/
Looks like the room acoustic treatment is catching on!:)
https://darko.audio/2023/02/the-jaw-dropping-results-of-a-vicoustic-installation/
He had his old room fully treated then he's moved to Portugal and had to start again.
He had his old room fully treated then he's moved to Portugal and had to start again.
Yes he is a big covert to room treatment and rightly so. It really is not worth spending loads of cash on your system if you don't do anything to the room as you will not be getting the best out of your gear. I think he said he would rather listen to cheaper end kit in a well treated room rather than hi end stuff in an untreated room.
For all the messing around audiophiles do with their systems trying to make them sound great in their own room they could spend far less on some room treatment and get much bigger results and SQ improvement.
My next panel will be costing me only £30 and it is 75cm x 50cm and 4-6cm deep. OK I will need more but I recon I will not spend more than £200 total on all the panels I will need. I should imagine the difference to the acoustics in the room finally will be significant and far more rewarding than a £200 cable?
Of course you may have tailored your system perfectly to your room and too your liking without room treatment in which case I commend the effort. One point I think that needs to be made is that when you start going down this path your system will sound quite different. Whether that is revealing the true nature of your equipment and suppressing the room involvement....I think so. Invariably I think most equipment sounds too bright in an untreated room and as I have discovered brightness does not equate to detail as I am getting both greater clarity and more detail as I add treatment to the room. I should say the detail is more precise and easier to ascertain.
All good fun and I must say I have been enjoying this avenue rather more than trying very expensive items, realising I don't like them and then having to sell them on at a loss!:lol:
i
Yes he is a big covert to room treatment and rightly so.
i
He's come some distance from when he was putting granite coasters on top of DACs. :lol:
Although I suspect he still thinks that works.
He's come some distance from when he was putting granite coasters on top of DACs. :lol:
Although I suspect he still thinks that works.
Yeah wondered about that one....maybe stops the clocks vibrating too much?:scratch:
It gives more weight to the sound?
Acoustic treatment panels are on hold until material arrives from USA which has been estimated at about 3 weeks.
But....something interesting maybe happening in the system this week...which will be quite exciting I hope?:)
So for a long time now I have pondered what a Solid state Phono stage would sound like in my system and over the past few years I have ear marked a few contenders. Over recent years with the increase in folk buying vinyl and turntables the choice has increased considerably and so there are many options available at a reasonable price but only a few that seem to be very highly regarded.
So in the current world of affordable gear I decided I would like to try the IFI phono stage, not only because it was cheap but because it had stunning reviews and has been used in mega bucks systems without embarrassing itself. Well after about two years of waiting I have been lucky enough to borrow one to try.
Now this is the first all transistor phono stage I have ever used with my current set up and indeed with any set up I have owned so for me it was going to be a big deal. How would a very well received SS phono stage sound and how would it compare against an all valve phono stage? Also bear in mind this phono stage measures incredibly well with a very low noise floor of -151 dBv. It also has a super accurate RIAA EQ tolerance level (+/- 0.15 db). So I will be comparing a phono stage that probably measures way better than my Croft phono stage on almost every parameter, but does it sound as good!
As an aside we do seem to be in a world that has become obsessed with measurements which reminds me of the THD wars of the 1980s. Only because something measure well it does not mean it will sound any good and because something measures badly it does not mean it will not sound good. Measurements are used as a marketing tool and can trick the unwary into believing because it measures well it must be good. I have heard plenty of stuff that measures exceptionally well and in fact was designed with the sole intention of being extremely low in distortion but somehow never fully engaged me as a listener.
So back to the IFI phono stage.
Does it sound any good, in a word yes, it sounds very good and as I have mentioned it measures very well and to my ears it contributed very low distortion. So this would seem to vindicate the measurement boys and indeed I can confirm its very low noise floor and super accurate RIAA can be heard or should I say cannot be heard.😀
So there we go, I plugged it in and ran it through the line stage of my Croft preamp and it sound ed great.
BUT that’s not the whole story.😀
This review as I was to discover was to become more about valves vs transistors and that’s where things got very interesting and why after some very late night listening I came to some conclusions.
The comparison of a super modern, super accurate transistor phono stage vs an old school full valve phono stage told me all I needed to know but up until now I had probably been afraid to confront.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52738156711_29a5c33d52_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2omhQBZ)6EA1D883-7C69-4336-8DF2-D3D763371922_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2omhQBZ) by , on Flickr
Wakefield Turntables
10-03-2023, 15:22
Leaving valves? I run a super hot rodded 4-Box Paradise phonostage in my Valve setup. I really love valves but I prefer SS phonostages through my valve setup.
Leaving valves? I run a super hot rodded 4-Box Paradise phonostage in my Valve setup. I really love valves but I prefer SS phonostages through my valve setup.
I have heard the Paradise a number of times Andy but not the 4 box set up. Urber smooth almost invisible performer with very transparent sound. I can see why some folk love them.
brian2957
10-03-2023, 15:34
Good post James, but now you've left us in suspense. Can't wait for part 2 :)
Good post James, but now you've left us in suspense. Can't wait for part 2 :)
Just got a bit more listening to do tonight :)
AJSki2fly
10-03-2023, 17:21
Just got a bit more listening to do tonight :)
I am in a similar state at present, with a SS Phono stage and a very good Valve one, and I just cannot decide at present, and keep switching back and forth every few days.:scratch:
Keep them both. ;)
Invest in a 2nd TT if you don’t already have one. :lol:
I think it is worth keeping both as they do things quite differently. The best SS I have heard was the Paradise and I can see where the appeal is with SS as they are quite neutral and probably or should I say most certainly give you a more accurate account of what is going on in the recording. However I am not bothered about accuracy or measurements and so forth, I am much more interested in something sounding pleasing to the ear, something that brings beauty to the music and I feel valves do a better job.
As a friend who knows me well ;) once observed I like "organic distortion". I certainly agree.:)
Keep them both. ;)
Invest in a 2nd TT if you don’t already have one. :lol:
Hey Kev, I just remembered I do run a second system myself with a SS phono stage. It is the GL75 with a Pioneer SX590. This has a built in SS phono from around 1978. Sounds lush and very nice indeed. Old school 70s mid centric but very sweet and appealing. Vinyl all sounds great through this system and funny enough I don't miss the valves!:eek:
this is the first all transistor phono stage I have ever used with my current set up and indeed with any set up I have owned so for me it was going to be a big deal. How would a very well received SS phono stage sound and how would it compare against an all valve phono stage? Also bear in mind this phono stage measures incredibly well with a very low noise floor of -151 dBv. It also has a super accurate RIAA EQ tolerance level (+/- 0.15 db). So I will be comparing a phono stage that probably measures way better than my Croft phono stage on almost every parameter, but does it sound as good!
The numbers published by iFi are "inflated" . To see how this phono preamp performs in neutral testing, the results are much different from advertised. You can look at them here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-phono-review-phono-stage.35240/
You will make your own decision on sound, but i wanted to say "hey, this isn't how it is" and ask not to decide in concrete for all SS devices based on this one preamp.
So what do you use Zander?
So what do you use Zander?
I own a Shigaraka. It was famous in Asia for the shortest signal route of any phono preamp.
I own a Shigaraka. It was famous in Asia for the shortest signal route of any phono preamp.
Not heard of the make and can't even find it on google?
The numbers published by iFi are "inflated" . To see how this phono preamp performs in neutral testing, the results are much different from advertised. You can look at them here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-phono-review-phono-stage.35240/
You will make your own decision on sound, but i wanted to say "hey, this isn't how it is" and ask not to decide in concrete for all SS devices based on this one preamp.
RIAA is pretty much perfect suspect that's mostly why it's a good sounding phono stage. That and noise level I think are the big discriminators between stages, not distortion, or valves/solid state.
I own a Shigaraka. It was famous in Asia for the shortest signal route of any phono preamp.
47 Labs Shigaraka?
Ah I think its spelt Shigaraki that's why I couldn't find it.
AJSki2fly
11-03-2023, 07:05
Keep them both. ;)
Invest in a 2nd TT if you don’t already have one. :lol:
Now that’s a thought, but I think my other half would not see the funny side of that[emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Now that’s a thought, but I think my other half would not see the funny side of that[emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:lolsign:
http://www.47labs.co.jp/4718.html
The numbers published by iFi are "inflated" . To see how this phono preamp performs in neutral testing, the results are much different from advertised. You can look at them here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-phono-review-phono-stage.35240/
You will make your own decision on sound, but i wanted to say "hey, this isn't how it is" and ask not to decide in concrete for all SS devices based on this one preamp.
So tell us more about your knowledge and experience with preamps. How is it then for you?
I like the 47. I have owned it for 8 years but have listened to other phono preamps. Valves and Silicon.
I like the 47. I have owned it for 8 years but have listened to other phono preamps. Valves and Silicon.
That's rather brief. What other phono stages have you listened too?
That's rather brief. What other phono stages have you listened too?
What phono preamp have I listen to that gives me the most forum credit? There has been Whest, Sonneteer, Croft, Gryphon, Lehmann, AVM, Graham Slee, Nagra, 47 Lab, plus more too. Not all in my home. Some in shops and some in the homes of friends and shows. My experience is that you have to understand what the measurements mean before you compare phono preamps to other ones, or the meaning of the numbers is misunderstood. For example "phono stage has a SNR of -151DBv" OK. but what is that figure at 0.3mV? for a MC or for 2m black?
ASR says it's close to -60db when fed MC or MM level of mV...long way from the -151db you thought you had bought. I like to read ASR for this reason. They have a standardised measurement system for themselves and everything is compared in the same way. The Measurements will not tell you if it give you pleasure to your ear, but they will tell you how it is performing against a standard. Then we can asses how well designed it really is.
You can take what you want from measurements but good luck trying to work out if A+B+C actually sounds any good. Like I said not everything that measure well in whatever way you want to measure it sounds good. You are obviously a "measurements" guy and pay homage to ASR but all that becomes pretty pointless if something sounds crap.
There are products that are designed to measure well and products that are designed to sound good and ignore measurements.
The best way to measure anything is to plug it into the rest of your kit and listen to it!:)
You can take what you want from measurements but good luck trying to work out if A+B+C actually sounds any good. Like I said not everything that measure well in whatever way you want to measure it sounds good. You are obviously a "measurements" guy and pay homage to ASR but all that becomes pretty pointless if something sounds crap.
There are products that are designed to measure well and products that are designed to sound good and ignore measurements.
The best way to measure anything is to plug it into the rest of your kit and listen to it!:)
interesting perspective but not sure it is possible to design something like a phono stage without measuring various performance factors or at least simulating them on a computer.
You have to relate measurements to audibility. Equipment that measures poorly compared to state of the art is still unlikely to be bad enough for its problems to make it sound bad.
By far the easiest thing to hear is variations in frequency response so accuracy of the RIAA equalisation will make a big difference. Way more than distortion since that will be swamped by the distortion in the pickup cartridge anyway.
Lots of stages I have seen measured are some way out from accurate eq. They won't sound bad just 'different.' Then we confuse frequency response differences we personally prefer with 'better' and it gets all mixed up.
Good points there Martin but although measurements are used to design a piece of kit there is a difference between measuring in order to make something function or designing a product just so it measures well.
Good points there Martin but although measurements are used to design a piece of kit there is a difference between measuring in order to make something function or designing a product just so it measures well.
Measurements are the result of the design.
I only highlight that iFi specs are not as truthful as you think. If you didn't use the spec in your post I would not have said anything.
The ultimate measurement is the ear of the listener.
Measurements are the result of the design.
I only highlight that iFi specs are not as truthful as you think. If you didn't use the spec in your post I would not have said anything.
Err I think you need measurements to design something. You don't just design it and then measure it.
BTW ASR make their measurements using their parameters and equipment and but the manufacturer might be measuring using a different method/equipment. Unfortunately I could not find out how they measure their equipment.
Last point. Do you really think I would be bothered if the ifi measurements were truthful or not. I would probably be far more interested in something that measured badly and then found out it sounded great. I know one or two items like this;).
Remember this, I like distortion, it just needs to be the right kind of distortion.:)
The ultimate measurement is the ear of the listener.
Absolutely Kevin.
Unfortunately some folk seem to be deaf to this idea.:) If it doesn't measure well it can't be good and if it has any distortion above 0.000000001 THD its not worth considering.:lol:
Good points there Martin but although measurements are used to design a piece of kit there is a difference between measuring in order to make something function or designing a product just so it measures well.
My point was that just because some people prefer the skewed frequency response of a phono stage with inaccurate RIAA it doesn't follow that designing for good sound quality and designing for good measurements are mutually exclusive. It wouldn't be hard to find a lot of people who prefer the sound of the accurate one, and then where are we?
(I'm not 100% sure that was what you were saying but that was the gist I got).
My point was that just because some people prefer the skewed frequency response of a phono stage with inaccurate RIAA it doesn't follow that designing for good sound quality and designing for good measurements are mutually exclusive. It wouldn't be hard to find a lot of people who prefer the sound of the accurate one, and then where are we?
(I'm not 100% sure that was what you were saying but that was the gist I got).
I agree you should try for both but designing for good SQ should be the first consideration and not so it just ticks the measurement boxes. I should say RIAA implementation should be as accurate as possible but I don't think my phono stage is and it sounds great.:)
Regarding RIAA curve, I wonder how many phono stages out there either have deviated from correct RIAA or have wandered out of spec due to ageing components?
Absolutely Kevin.
Unfortunately some folk seem to be deaf to this idea.:) If it doesn't measure well it can't be good and if it has any distortion above 0.000000001 THD its not worth considering.:lol:
You quoted the measured performance of the phono in your post about it. And now you get upset when people talk of measurements? Who is saying things are not worth considering? I am not. The iFi is a phono preamp with measured performance in level to it's price. Why do you get upset and rude? It is you that is deaf to the scientific evidence between performance and measurements. Putting smiley faces on posts is not disguising your intent to be rude.
You quoted the measured performance of the phono in your post about it. And now you get upset when people talk of measurements? Who is saying things are not worth considering? I am not. The iFi is a phono preamp with measured performance in level to it's price. Why do you get upset and rude? It is you that is deaf to the scientific evidence between performance and measurements. Putting smiley faces on posts is not disguising your intent to be rude.
I am not upset at all. You are reading far too much into these posts especially ones that are not directed at you. I think some of your accusations regarding me being deaf to scientific evidence are very rude and miss the point. Technical performance and measurements are one thing, whether something sounds good because it measures well is another.
You quoted the measured performance of the phono in your post about it. And now you get upset when people talk of measurements? Who is saying things are not worth considering? I am not. The iFi is a phono preamp with measured performance in level to it's price. Why do you get upset and rude? It is you that is deaf to the scientific evidence between performance and measurements. Putting smiley faces on posts is not disguising your intent to be rude.
zander, he was not being rude; you are! now get back to polite discussion please...
I am not upset at all. You are reading far too much into these posts especially ones that are not directed at you. I think some of your accusations regarding me being deaf to scientific evidence are very rude and miss the point. Technical performance and measurements are one thing, whether something sounds good because it measures well is another.
If i have the wrong context, i accept it. Speaking and reading English is not my first language, so i accept it.
I look at Croft measurements and they do not look good. https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier-measurements
The iFi is better in the tests so i am interested in what you think of it. Khz extend on iFi and may be too much after listening to Croft for a long time.
Absolutely Kevin.
Unfortunately some folk seem to be deaf to this idea.:) If it doesn't measure well it can't be good and if it has any distortion above 0.000000001 THD its not worth considering.:lol:
I don't think anyone with any understanding thinks that. There's a threshold to the point where measurements matter. If someone has 'good measurements' as one of their buying criteria then they might well buy the device with the best measurements (assuming all else is equal, like price) instead of the poorer measuring one even though they know it won't matter in real terms.
They do tend to totally avoid equipment with measured performance so poor it is audible or potentially audible. Ironically that tends to be some of the really expensive stuff as well as lots of the really cheap stuff.
Wakefield Turntables
11-03-2023, 19:13
Synergy is your friend. Measurements are bollocks. It's what you hear and how it make you feel that really counts.
Synergy is your friend. Measurements are bollocks. It's what you hear and how it make you feel that really counts.
well personally I find them useful to narrow down the field into what I might or might not like.
When I bought my current speakers I compared their measurements to those of speakers I had already heard and liked. Consequently I'm happy with them and have no intention of changing them for something else - job done.
If I had only considered measurements as a prerequisite for purchasing a piece of kit I would never have considered buying my Croft. A few years back measurements were never really considered that much by folk in the audio fraternity but with the internet and certain sites that specialise in this area they have bought about a new rational for buying hifi that is so powerful some manufacturers have taken notice and built some of their gear in order that it measures well even though they feel that some of it sounds better when it doesn't measure as well.
well personally I find them useful to narrow down the field into what I might or might not like.
When I bought my current speakers I compared their measurements to those of speakers I had already heard and liked. Consequently I'm happy with them and have no intention of changing them for something else - job done.
Now Martin I know you like audio psychology. Are you sure you are not just buying gear that measures well and then telling yourself because it measure well it must sound good! :)
I fell into this trap when I first heard and bought into CD. It measured very well indeed compared to vinyl but sounded utter crap.:lol:
Now Martin I know you like audio psychology. Are you sure you are not just buying gear that measures well and then telling yourself because it measure well it must sound good! :)
I fell into this trap when I first heard and bought into CD. It measured very well indeed compared to vinyl but sounded utter crap.:lol:
:lol:
Like everyone else I have a listen and if I like it I keep it. I don't overthink it, what's the point? If something about the sound irritates me, then it goes. If not, then it's fine.
I'm not into all this 'Is the soundstage a bit wider?' sort of subjective comparisons. I've done that in the past and concluded it just doesn't matter to me.
I had the same experience as you in the early days of CD, I thought it sounded crap.
If and when you come over I will see if I can get my Marantz CD54 playing for you - you'll know then it was not the early CD players - or the medium - that was the problem :D
Those Croft power amps you use measure fine, I had one for a while but it kept blowing fuses when used with Celestion A2. Couldn't handle the low impedance.
:lol:
Like everyone else I have a listen and if I like it I keep it. I don't overthink it, what's the point? If something about the sound irritates me, then it goes. If not, then it's fine.
I'm not into all this 'Is the soundstage a bit wider?' sort of subjective comparisons. I've done that in the past and concluded it just doesn't matter to me.
I had the same experience as you in the early days of CD, I thought it sounded crap.
If and when you come over I will see if I can get my Marantz CD54 playing for you - you'll know then it was not the early CD players - or the medium - that was the problem :D
Those Croft power amps you use measure fine, I had one for a while but it kept blowing fuses when used with Celestion A2. Couldn't handle the low impedance.
Yes must sort a date out to pop up. I will PM you with some dates soon.
After a trip round the mulberry bush regarding measurements yesterday:rolleyes: I did some more extensive listening with the ifi phono stage and these are the conclusions I came to
1. It was very very quiet on hook up. I used a linear PSU rather than SMPS so maybe this also helped. ( I missed the slight sound of tube rush��)
2. The very low noise floor made for a super quiet background. Inky black and allowed the recording to be heard very clearly.
3. Soundstage and transparency were very good with clear imaging and great detail.
4. Presentation was almost laid back and I would say neutral, balanced and very clean but not as engaging as I am used too.
Comparison with Croft phono stage
The ifi phono sounded less three dimensional than the Croft and the sound stage was a tad smaller both in width and depth. The Croft sounded faster and more incisive, the sound stage was deeper and wider and more 3D. There was more space around the instruments and performers with the valve phono stage.
But the biggest difference was the vivid, natural and live sound the Croft rendered to recordings. They were more dynamic, powerful and you felt a much better engaged and a closer connection to the music,The IFI phono was more detached and opaque where as the Croft felt closer to the music. It rendered the music with a much greater sense of the performer being in the room with you.
I think the ifi phono can be found for £150 or so and at that price it is an absolute bargain. It certainly has a lot of great attributes and sounds superb even with MM. I am looking forward to hearing what it can do with a good MC in the near future.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52738408319_1a65be1cbf_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2omj8q4)3F0DCB3C-E7E9-425D-9186-D439BB7BE3DC_1_201_a (https://flic.kr/p/2omj8q4) by , on Flickr
As you can see from the photo this thing is tiny!
brian2957
12-03-2023, 10:04
Morning James, great review again. I was reading about the Ifi phono stage in Hifi Choice last month and the reviewer said more or less the the same things as you. In his conclusion he said the Ifi phono stage was 'curiously reluctant to boogie'. Again more or less what you have said above.
IMO just shows what a great designer Glenn Croft was :)
James, I think you need try a decent MM stage for a fair comparison.
Sure, the price will not be the same as the iFi (that is almost pronounced Iffy in France :lol:) but it will show you what a good stage is capable of. There are some very good stages out there, and some companies run loan schemes without obligations to putprchase.
I still use my BB3, as in my eyes, there is no better phono stage on the planet, because I built mine.
There is strictly no bias at all in that statement. No, honestly ;).
i was quite impressed with my pro ject phono box ds3 (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AJOqlzUadXN7j3SlLt_E_itmRZemAlVhwA:167861645 7150&q=pro+ject+phono+box+ds3&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisypHNldb9AhXMS0EAHZwDAXQQkeECKAB6BAgKE AE).. it was dearer when i bought but its still over 500. perhaps not at the highest end but its ability to connect to a pc and record, plus adjustable from front was a big selling point at time. it sounded pretty good too. still got it somewhere as i thought at some stage i might get back to a system
James, I think you need try a decent MM stage for a fair comparison.
Sure, the price will not be the same as the iFi (that is almost pronounced Iffy in France :lol:) but it will show you what a good stage is capable of. There are some very good stages out there, and some companies run loan schemes without obligations to putprchase.
I still use my BB3, as in my eyes, there is no better phono stage on the planet, because I built mine.
There is strictly no bias at all in that statement. No, honestly ;).
At the phono stage bake off we did the Croft MM stage (with a SUT since we were using an MC cartridge) was my second-favourite of all those tested (which was a lot).
Pigmy Pony
12-03-2023, 10:47
At the phono stage bake off we did the Croft MM stage (with a SUT since we were using an MC cartridge) was my second-favourite of all those tested (which was a lot).
Ok I have to ask...
At the phono stage bake off we did the Croft MM stage (with a SUT since we were using an MC cartridge) was my second-favourite of all those tested (which was a lot).
I think the point was that valves are getting stupidly expensive, so a good MM phono stage could make sense.
I have never heard a Croft phono stage, but I have no doubt that it will be good.
Ok I have to ask...
AQVOX - it wasn't anyone else's favourite except perhaps the bloke who brought it along (might have been Ken of this parish I don't recall now).
AQVOX - it wasn't anyone else's favourite except perhaps the bloke who brought it along (might have been Ken of this parish I don't recall now).
remember some talk here on the aqvox mc cart...
James, I think you need try a decent MM stage for a fair comparison.
Sure, the price will not be the same as the iFi (that is almost pronounced Iffy in France :lol:) but it will show you what a good stage is capable of. There are some very good stages out there, and some companies run loan schemes without obligations to putprchase.
I still use my BB3, as in my eyes, there is no better phono stage on the planet, because I built mine.
There is strictly no bias at all in that statement. No, honestly ;).
Brilliant:lol:
At the phono stage bake off we did the Croft MM stage (with a SUT since we were using an MC cartridge) was my second-favourite of all those tested (which was a lot).
Yes a SUT maybe another good option for me and then hopefully get the best of both worlds.
i was quite impressed with my pro ject phono box ds3 (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AJOqlzUadXN7j3SlLt_E_itmRZemAlVhwA:167861645 7150&q=pro+ject+phono+box+ds3&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisypHNldb9AhXMS0EAHZwDAXQQkeECKAB6BAgKE AE).. it was dearer when i bought but its still over 500. perhaps not at the highest end but its ability to connect to a pc and record, plus adjustable from front was a big selling point at time. it sounded pretty good too. still got it somewhere as i thought at some stage i might get back to a system
I have read some great things about the project phono stage. I think they can be picked up fairly cheaply second hand?
I have read some great things about the project phono stage. I think they can be picked up fairly cheaply second hand?
no idea re second hand prices.. i looked there, and they are 520 new. there is a dearer one over double the price too. great kit if you want to record off your records, tapes etc
I am just keeping my eye on this big phono stage shoot out on Twittering machines. Could be something interesting coming out of this pile of phono stages?
https://twitteringmachines.com/the-tm-phono-stage-survey-rules-regulations/
Back to the acoustic reflection panels. I wanted to increase the amount of panels in my listening room having had so much success with just a couple and decided to try and incorporate some Wall Art. The main objective was to ensure they didn't look like I had just thrown in a load of typical slabs of acoustic control panels as this also my living room and it had to be WAF approved!:eek:
Knocked this up today, it is nearly 1 metre in length by about 60cm and 5cm thick. Every panel that goes into the room certainly can be heard altering the room acoustics but I am not sure how far to go with at least 6-8 scheduled to go in. We will see or should I say hear!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52742973363_34a8717cf0_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2omHwrH)85B582B1-62D2-45DF-930F-5944B04E331C (https://flic.kr/p/2omHwrH) by [/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52742483511_d779833b99_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)2DE5096F-8803-4E33-962C-748B6A41C085 (https://flic.kr/p/2omF1PZ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
This is behind my listening position.
karma1967
12-03-2023, 15:34
i like that mate,what is the covering?
i like that mate,what is the covering?
Cheers Jamie, The covering is a mid century modern print on pure cotton fabric. It is acoustically invisible. The filling is multi layered wadding which works great. The best part is you can add or subtract layers depending on the final product you want and potentially which frequencies you want to attenuate.
You can use rock wool of course but this is a bit broadband where as I can achieve finer control with this design. I am only concerned with first reflections so only need about 4cm thick acoustic panels.
AJSki2fly
12-03-2023, 16:45
....
Knocked this up today, it is nearly 1 metre in length by about 60cm and 5cm thick. Every panel that goes into the room certainly can be heard altering the room acoustics but I am not sure how far to go with at least 6-8 scheduled to go in. We will see or should I say hear!
.......
If you go too far with the acoustic panels the acoustics will become quite dead and flat, like someone has sucked all the energy out of the music you are listening too.
If you go too far with the acoustic panels the acoustics will become quite dead and flat, like someone has sucked all the energy out of the music you are listening too.
Your right Adrian so I will be listening out for that.
So back too the Pioneer SX590. What a beauty until it starts playing up. I decided I was going to look at replacing the caps and maybe transistors in the phono stage and have seen a good few restoration projects where this has been done. Just replace with same value and hopefully better quality so I was going to get the board out and check with a multimeter which caps were an issue.
JUST before I tore it apart I though I would make sure it was not another issue so I disconnected everything and re routed wiring and changed power cables etc. Now the Pioneer only creates mischief when using the phono stage. No problems with the line stages or indeed when using the receiver. But as soon as I switched to the phono stage I was getting humming and buzzing. A thought struck me it may be an earthing issue or ground issue relating to either the power cable (unlikely) or the captive phono lead which I had soldered into the GL75.
I think my hunch was correct as I have "messed" with this cable and made sure earth leads attached and viola hum has gone. Maybe the tiniest buzz when turning up full volume but nothing like before. So hopefully I have cured the problem and prevented myself going to a whole heap of trouble and spending hours on the mouser website!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52744475672_8d21fe7c54_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2omRe2A)3CA7A634-470D-44C0-B328-E928346EB30D (https://flic.kr/p/2omRe2A) by [/url], on Flickr
Playing very sweet this afternoon with my fully reconditioned GL75. They got some thing very right back then.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52745464980_56edd850b9_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)2BC89112-CAE5-4930-BDE3-3063D3FAD177 (https://flic.kr/p/2omWi7C) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
brian2957
13-03-2023, 16:34
Lovely receiver James. Yes I do believe they got a lot right in those days :)
Lovely receiver James. Yes I do believe they got a lot right in those days :)
They sound great and the phono stage is very good indeed. Back in the 1970s there was way more competition so stuff had to sound good. They had very useful tone controls back then too which I really like. You can EQ your system in your room with them and saves a whole bunch of box swapping or room acoustic treatment.
Schitt audio have a lovely little device called the Loki which is an all analogue EQ which would be great for this?:)
https://www.schiit.com/products/loki-mini-3
brian2957
13-03-2023, 17:34
The Marantz amp I have here has tone controls. Never had a play with them (yet) :)
Pigmy Pony
13-03-2023, 18:13
They sound great and the phono stage is very good indeed. Back in the 1970s there was way more competition so stuff had to sound good. They had very useful tone controls back then too which I really like. You can EQ your system in your room with them and saves a whole bunch of box swapping or room acoustic treatment.
Schitt audio have a lovely little device called the Loki which is an all analogue EQ which would be great for this?:)
https://www.schiit.com/products/loki-mini-3
That Loki stuff looks interesting, but (and forgive my ignorance) where would it sit in a simple set up with 2 sources (vinyl and CD) into an integrated amp?
That Loki stuff looks interesting, but (and forgive my ignorance) where would it sit in a simple set up with 2 sources (vinyl and CD) into an integrated amp?
Tricky one that Steve because it would usually go between pre and power. It can be connected between your source and preamp so I would take that as any preamp even one in an integrated?
The Marantz amp I have here has tone controls. Never had a play with them (yet) :)
Hey mate I only put the pic of the GL75 up to get you going!:lol:
I think it was a bad decision by the industry to get rid of tone controls as folk have had to buy and swap sooo much gear to get the bass or treble or clarity they are looking for.
Can you believe it that some folk actually use cables to increase treble top end performance and gain clarity in their system. :lol:
brian2957
13-03-2023, 19:01
hahaha....ya dirty dog :ner:
Yup. I have cables here to do lotsa things with my system. Maybe a slight adjustment with my tone controls will have the desired effect. Watch this space :)
hahaha....ya dirty dog :ner:
Yup. I have cables here to do lotsa things with my system. Maybe a slight adjustment with my tone controls will have the desired effect. Watch this space :)
Acoustic panels are also tone controls.:lol:
brian2957
13-03-2023, 22:10
Yup, be havin a play again soon :)
Pigmy Pony
14-03-2023, 00:06
Tricky one that Steve because it would usually go between pre and power. It can be connected between your source and preamp so I would take that as any preamp even one in an integrated?
Thanks James, I thought that might be the case. I suppose I could either swap between inputs as required (a faff) or some kind of input selector (more boxes)
I'm sure the best solution would come from experiments with room treatment as you've outlined earlier, unfortunately I'd be working against a weirdly shaped room and a missus with very fixed views about room decor. Oh well, new speakers it is then :D
Thanks James, I thought that might be the case. I suppose I could either swap between inputs as required (a faff) or some kind of input selector (more boxes)
I'm sure the best solution would come from experiments with room treatment as you've outlined earlier, unfortunately I'd be working against a weirdly shaped room and a missus with very fixed views about room decor. Oh well, new speakers it is then :D
I understand your problem:)
Lovely morning here so decided to take a walk out from my home into the countryside and back. Captured a few photos on the way.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52746363387_360c57a7a0_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2on1Ubp)A7463CA4-DA6E-4BF4-9335-2095B8107466 (https://flic.kr/p/2on1Ubp) by
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on6HsP]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52747302895_e3a8e5d188_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)CEDE413C-E392-475E-8746-A7D03DD87E09 (https://flic.kr/p/2on6HsP) by
Out into the countryside
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on1U9F]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52746363287_684e6a2b07_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)2EC4E699-3141-4FE5-AB85-F8AB8B504C65 (https://flic.kr/p/2on1U9F) by
Decided to stop here for coffee.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on79EA]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52747387678_0f5f595a6e_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)AB2CE6E4-41FF-4D23-B2CF-764344799DD6 (https://flic.kr/p/2on79EA) by
Coffee
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on1U7w]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52746363162_f71af62447_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)68C8E082-7761-4053-9F9B-597424E53541 (https://flic.kr/p/2on1U7w) by (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52746889201_394011b451_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2on4Aua)5C4A357E-C397-41F9-8A3A-ED9ECCEA6DA4 (https://flic.kr/p/2on4Aua) by
A very sunny morning and just leaving with my listening partner
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on79BQ]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52747387518_e7a57d84a6_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)85B31A28-A9FB-49F7-8F7E-DF70ECCEA426 (https://flic.kr/p/2on79BQ) by
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2on6Hno]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52747302580_8b4e43f1f3_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)FA9B0184-30B8-45A7-AE46-2E6C7FFEDF0D (https://flic.kr/p/2on6Hno) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/]
whats all the, dare i say "crap" on the roof of pub for :D good pics and a nicer day than here where weve had snow again
whats all the, dare i say "crap" on the roof of pub for :D good pics and a nicer day than here where weve had snow again
Its Wisteria growing on the pub roof. We had a storm over last day or so and heavy rain so been desperate to get out.
Its Wisteria growing on the pub roof. We had a storm over last day or so and heavy rain so been desperate to get out.
ah, someone not been pruning and its become a feature now ... can cause a lot of damage i believe.
ah, someone not been pruning and its become a feature now ... can cause a lot of damage i believe.
Yes to both but it does look beautiful when it's out. I don't like anything growing on the house as it eats into the brickwork and eventually cause damage as you say.
Doesn't look like any part of Birmingham I've ever been to!
only bit of brum ive been to was solihul(spelling?)it was quite pleasent but that was a long time ago. could be a dump now. stayed overnight in a house of a family aquaintance before flying from airport
I am a good way from centre of Birmingham on the far West side. Only a short distance from the countryside.
only bit of brum ive been to was solihul(spelling?)it was quite pleasent but that was a long time ago. could be a dump now. stayed overnight in a house of a family aquaintance before flying from airport
Solihull is still very nice Grant and very expensive. :eek:
Solihull is still very nice Grant and very expensive. :eek:
it was a nice house and area looked good but that was 50 yrs ago so lots could have happened... still got a friend who lives in that general area.
it was a nice house and area looked good but that was 50 yrs ago so lots could have happened... still got a friend who lives in that general area.
I pop over there every now and again as they have a `John Lewis which is quite useful and town is very nice but it is really expensive place, London Prices for property and very good place to live because of access to the M40 to London.
First two pages of Rightmove property search and there is nothing under £1000,000!:eek:
Nice piccies.
I try to get out of the house most days, if not to drip-feed my sbopping but to commume with my fellow (wo)man.
Thanks Barry,
We walk most days during the colder weather and these were taken on one of our usual walks. The light was good so great for photography.
I use this when I want a reality check. Can my system sound anything like this in the room?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52749624703_783396be37_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oniBDZ)DB6E757B-D51E-4203-9A31-C93920EFA8AA (https://flic.kr/p/2oniBDZ) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
The answer is nowhere near!:doh:
Sadly true!
Have you ever recorded yourself playing guitar in the same room and played it back?
the guitar in the room has a spherical sound field, stereo playback doesn't. So it's never going to sound the same.
the guitar in the room has a spherical sound field, stereo playback doesn't. So it's never going to sound the same.
agreed
the guitar in the room has a spherical sound field, stereo playback doesn't. So it's never going to sound the same.
The player's body will distort the sound field from being spherical to something more 'cardoid' in nature. A properly miked up guitar (say using a Calrec Soundfield microphone) will correctly replicate the sound field on a two-channel system, provided there is minimal phase shift with frequency.
I have heard plenty if acoustic guitars live in concerts both miked and un miked.
I have always pondered how the sound of a guitar miked and played through a simple PA system sounds as you would expect it to live but a guitar recorded and mastered onto either a digital or vinyl format and played back through a hifi system no matter how good still does not sound like the real instrument in front of you when you do an A-B comparison. It almost gets there on big rigs but somehow even with the very best recording systems something gets lost in the electronics?
I have heard plenty if acoustic guitars live in concerts both miked and un miked.
I have always pondered how the sound of a guitar miked and played through a simple PA system sounds as you would expect it to live but a guitar recorded and mastered onto either a digital or vinyl format and played back through a hifi system no matter how good still does not sound like the real instrument in front of you when you do an A-B comparison. It almost gets there on big rigs but somehow even with the very best recording systems something gets lost in the electronics?
unless the venue is large and you are stood way back some of what you hear will still be the sound from the guitar body.
Otherwise it would depend on what is done to the sound in production (compression, limiting, reverb etc).
The intention of the producer of a recording is not necessarily to have the instruments sound as real as possible but to create a soundscape.
This is one reason why 'The sound of real instruments' is an unreliable benchmark for assessing playback quality.
If you record the PA amplified guitar and keep the recording 'raw', I'd say the loudspeaker used for playback would be the limiting factor in the comparison. Plus the added effects of your room acoustic. Even then the recording will still sound like it was made in a room other than your own.
Pigmy Pony
16-03-2023, 07:54
I have been to plenty of gigs where while the sound, though obviously 'real', had me thinking "If my stereo at home sounded like that, I'd sell it and start again". So now I'm not bothered about it sounding real, just pleasing to my ears.
I have been to plenty of gigs where while the sound, though obviously 'real', had me thinking "If my stereo at home sounded like that, I'd sell it and start again". So now I'm not bothered about it sounding real, just pleasing to my ears.
Very rare have I been to a gig and thought I would like that sound at home. Most artists especially at large venues have poor sound usually screwed up by the mixing desk/ acoustic nature of the venue. Small pub size venues with un amplified instruments can sound far better in my book.
The only gig I thought - WOW they got that right and I would like my system to sound like that were Kraftwerk at Symphony Hall Birmingham. Stunning unbelievable controlled sound, like a huge HIFI system!:)
But most of the time I much prefer to listen to my system at home and often feel it is more satisfying to listen to than the actual artist playing live!
walpurgis
16-03-2023, 08:05
The player's body will distort the sound field from being spherical to something more 'cardoid' in nature.
It wasn't something I'd considered before, but that crossed my mind too. Similar perhaps to the rear dispersion characteristics of a conventional loudspeaker.
Now had nearly a week with the new panel sitting on the rear wall behind my head. It is actually quite deep 5-6cm although difficult to see from the photos. I was a bit sceptical as to the efficacy of a rear panel especially as my sitting position is nearly 6-8 feet away from the rear wall. But I decided that if this was one of the main reflection points it must be fairly critical.
I was very surprised by how much this acoustic panel has made to the sound of the system. OK I understand and can comprehend the aural effects of the first reflection panels on the side walls but the rear wall seemed unimportant in my mind. This proved to be very wrong and just shows you don't know how something is going to work until you try it which is really the case for the whole of my acoustic panel adventures.:)
Translating this into what I heard again is fairly tricky. I have previously described the big differences with the front two panels namely soundstage, clarity and imaging and once again the rear panel contributed to these acoustic effects but it also did quite a bit more!
I held back writing anything for a week before I was clear and sure what I was hearing but the one two areas the rear panel excelled in were tonal quality and depth/layering of soundstage. Bearing in mind the timing alterations a room can contribute to the sound you hear I am now convinced the more you can reduce these the better. Your ears are simply picking up less reflections and therefore less timing issues especially with the critical top end information. This means your hearing/brain is working less hard to pick out what is going on in the mix. Subtleties in complex recordings are much easier to comprehend especially in vocal arrangements. multi miked and multi layering of vocals in the mix are untangled and far easier to follow.
The other main area I perceived greater benefit is tonal quality. Take an instrument like a cello and there is a lot going on with its complex sound both from the vibrating strings, bow and wooden body. This interplay of harmonics and tonal complexity is made far clearer with the acoustic panels in place. Before it was all bunched up together almost as one sound but with the panels in place I could now hear far more information going on with the instrument. Magnify this across all aspects of the recording and you can understand what excellent benefits the acoustic panels are making to the listening experience.
I literally sat there every evening enthralled at the new sound I was getting trying to comprehend what was going on, fascinating experience and one I would definitely recommend. Best thing is that it has cost relatively little compared to buying equipment and I would say it has been one of the biggest improvements I have had for years. If you like the system you have then you may like it even more with a little room treatment.
There again you might not!;)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52755222423_ce91206682_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2onNiEp)6DC95D52-67E6-46AB-A7A9-A75DC32BB753 (https://flic.kr/p/2onNiEp) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Pigmy Pony
18-03-2023, 11:30
Actually I'd have thought that the wall behind you would have a major effect on the sound, which would reach your ears directly from the speakers but also bounce back at you from behind.
As an example of what I'm saying (though rather extreme), was when I saw Happy Mondays at Manchester's G-Mex. Where we were stood we had the direct sound followed a split second later by the sound bouncing back from the rear of the venue. Very strange. And I'm thinking that similar could happen to a lesser degree in a listening room.
Actually I'd have thought that the wall behind you would have a major effect on the sound, which would reach your ears directly from the speakers but also bounce back at you from behind.
As an example of what I'm saying (though rather extreme), was when I saw Happy Mondays at Manchester's G-Mex. Where we were stood we had the direct sound followed a split second later by the sound bouncing back from the rear of the venue. Very strange. And I'm thinking that similar could happen to a lesser degree in a listening room.
Your absolutely right Steve the back wall had more effect on the sound than I imagined. :eek:
Your absolutely right Steve the back wall had more effect on the sound than I imagined. :eek:
I discovered some years back that just closing the curtain on the window behind me was the equivalent of an entire system upgrade.
Really no exaggeration and that's just a curtain (albeit a quite thick thermal one).
Prior to that I always wondered why my system sounded better in the winter (when it was dark when I got in so curtain closed all the time).
This is why I am always saying you don't need to use expensive and possibly low WAF 'dedicated treatments' to get big gains.
I discovered some years back that just closing the curtain on the window behind me was the equivalent of an entire system upgrade.
Really no exaggeration and that's just a curtain (albeit a quite thick thermal one).
Prior to that I always wondered why my system sounded better in the winter (when it was dark when I got in so curtain closed all the time).
This is why I am always saying you don't need to use expensive and possibly low WAF 'dedicated treatments' to get big gains.
Great observation Martin and I agree you can go a long way using heavy curtains and furniture to help with room acoustics.
I wonder if the occasionally reported phenomena of 'digital glare' is not down to an overly lively acoustic, especially if the first reflection points and the wall/window behind the listening position (if it is quite close which it usually is) are flat, hard surfaces?
You see that a lot in pics of people's rooms.
I wonder if the occasionally reported phenomena of 'digital glare' is not down to an overly lively acoustic, especially if the first reflection points and the wall/window behind the listening position (if it is quite close which it usually is) are flat, hard surfaces?
You see that a lot in pics of people's rooms.
Very interesting point. I have a lot of thoughts going round my head as a result of the room acoustic evaluation and if you go back to the article I posted up there has been a fair bit of work done to measure room acoustics and their influence on timing especially top end frequencies. If all the reflections reach your ears at different timings ( which they do in an untreated room) then you get lots of things happening, one of which maybe digital glare. I am not so sure but it does not help with digital recordings which suffer from timing issues anyway. But none the less I think digital glare can be accentuated by poor acoustics.
The greatest area of interest for me and this is from my own observations/listening is that the better the acoustics the better the recorded information reaches your ears giving a more accurate reflection of what the recording actually should sound like. It is also known that timing issues also reflect tonal information as they are not reconstructed by the brain sufficiently accurately to give a true representation of what was recorded. This is what I have perceived in the last week with the last panel coming into effect on the rear wall.
Speaker manufacturers also go to quite some lengths to ensure the drive units also work compensating for timing issues which is great but probably undone
with poor room acoustics.
I am going slowly with the panels as I don't want to introduce too much at once as I think there will be a tipping point where the room becomes unbalanced between live and acoustically damped. I am fascinated by what I have heard so far and wonder where it will all end.
PS . I have heard some rooms that have gone to the extreme with room acoustics and either a) they have gone too far or b) they show up the weaknesses of the electronics and speakers being used!
walpurgis
18-03-2023, 16:15
I discovered some years back that just closing the curtain on the window behind me was the equivalent of an entire system upgrade.
When I was decorating the bathroom and it was empty, I tried clapping my hands to listen to the reverb and it was very noticeable. I hung only one thick bath towel on a rail and clapped again and the reverb was gone. Illustrates the principle.
Pigmy Pony
18-03-2023, 16:58
When I was decorating the bathroom and it was empty, I tried clapping my hands to listen to the reverb and it was very noticeable. I hung only one thick bath towel on a rail and clapped again and the reverb was gone. Illustrates the principle.
Used to call it 'flutter echoes', probably still do. Many of my jobs involved working in bare empty rooms, where conversation was more difficult sometimes to follow when the radio was on, the sounds all bled into each other.
My kitchen is terrible for conversation as it is all hard surfaces and really bad acoustics. Putting the glasses and plates away in the cupboard can be painful because of the noise. Walk into the lounge though and its got a hushed silence.
The greatest area of interest for me and this is from my own observations/listening is that the better the acoustics the better the recorded information reaches your ears giving a more accurate reflection of what the recording actually should sound like. It is also known that timing issues also reflect tonal information as they are not reconstructed by the brain sufficiently accurately to give a true representation of what was recorded. This is what I have perceived in the last week with the last panel coming into effect on the rear wall.
Speaker manufacturers also go to quite some lengths to ensure the drive units also work compensating for timing issues which is great but probably undone
with poor room acoustics.
Tonal balance is a function of frequency response, and time domain is just the flip-side of frequency response so I suppose there is going to be some inter-relationship there.
I discovered some years back that just closing the curtain on the window behind me was the equivalent of an entire system upgrade.
Really no exaggeration and that's just a curtain (albeit a quite thick thermal one).
Prior to that I always wondered why my system sounded better in the winter (when it was dark when I got in so curtain closed all the time).
This is why I am always saying you don't need to use expensive and possibly low WAF 'dedicated treatments' to get big gains.
Agreed!
After mucking about with room acoustics over the last few months I am now rationalising where I have got too. Although I have put up pictures of the finished panels I have also used other temporary incomplete panels to assess further where I should go. These will be forthcoming in the next few weeks or so but I just thought I would stop for a while and take stock where I have got too and how the system and the room sounds now.
So tonight I will evaluate my efforts using some well chosen records and over the weekend put down my thoughts and write up a review of my own system as of March 2023. This will give me a line in the sand so I can refer back when I make any more changes going forward.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52767033422_3a1c5b3a01_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ooQQEj)7961D2D5-4889-4701-A409-09450658FB0A (https://flic.kr/p/2ooQQEj) by [/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52767823354_6f159bc7a2_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)112E0D53-A76C-4D97-B134-DF6B6379BDDC (https://flic.kr/p/2ooUTtQ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
Pigmy Pony
24-03-2023, 09:18
After mucking about with room acoustics over the last few months I am now rationalising where I have got too. Although I have put up pictures of the finished panels I have also used other temporary incomplete panels to assess further where I should go. These will be forthcoming in the next few weeks or so but I just thought I would stop for a while and take stock where I have got too and how the system and the room sounds now.
So tonight I will evaluate my efforts using some well chosen records and over the weekend put down my thoughts and write up a review of my own system as of March 2023. This will give me a line in the sand so I can refer back when I make any more changes going forward.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52767033422_3a1c5b3a01_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ooQQEj)7961D2D5-4889-4701-A409-09450658FB0A (https://flic.kr/p/2ooQQEj) by [/url], on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52767823354_6f159bc7a2_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)112E0D53-A76C-4D97-B134-DF6B6379BDDC (https://flic.kr/p/2ooUTtQ) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/], on Flickr
Sounds like a good plan James - doing to much too soon you can end up losing your way, and struggle to find exactly where it started to go wrong.
brian2957
24-03-2023, 09:56
My word you're well organised James. I wish my mind worked like that. I was always able to evaluate one or two sets of interconnects or digital cables, but always on a small scale. Ma heid would be all over the place with a project this size :)
I look forward to your report :)
My word you're well organised James. I wish my mind worked like that. I was always able to evaluate one or two sets of interconnects or digital cables, but always on a small scale. Ma heid would be all over the place with a project this size :)
I look forward to your report :)
I learnt from you mate:lol: Don't change too much at once and always leave the option to go back to what you had before!
I learnt from you mate:lol: Don't change too much at once and always leave the option to go back to what you had before!
Agreed! IMO, one should make a change, listen to it and stick with it for a couple of weeks or so, whilst playing as broad a range of music as possible. After this time, go back to what you had before, and listen again. If the newly-wrought improvement(s) disappear, then you know you have made a genuine improvement; but sometimes the previous arrangement may sound better.
I heard an industry reviewer on a Podcast recently and he said he preferred to have equipment with him for many weeks or a few months to evaluate as it took this long for him to really know what its strengths and weaknesses were especially when evaluating with alternative equipment and speakers. Its a complex business and I feel a judgment on anything needs time and lengthy consideration.
Also important to go back to where you were with your system to see if your were really imagining an improvement or whether a piece of equipment turns out to be just different and a sideways move. The more I work on my system and room acoustics the more I realise the whole process is so personal and unique to your own environment and listening preferences.
AJSki2fly
24-03-2023, 17:27
Also important to go back to where you were with your system to see if your were really imagining an improvement or whether a piece of equipment turns out to be just different and a sideways move.
I have been trying to do that now for couple of months with two phono stages and am no further forward. :doh::scratch:
Wakefield Turntables
24-03-2023, 17:33
My philosophy has been to keep the same kit for many years and recognise it's strengths and weaknesses. It becomes very very very easy to discern positive or negative changes to your sound once you start tinkering. I remember instantly disliking Melz 6SL7 valves when I was going through my valve rolling adventures, to my surprise the RCA coin base 6SL7 were a complete stunner. It only took a few seconds of Kind of Blue for me to discern the changes. Simple changes one step changes can be very quickly evaluated.
I have been trying to do that now for couple of months with two phono stages and am no further forward. :doh::scratch:
Great isn't Adrian!:lol:
Last night was spent listening to some great music and critically appraising where have now got to with the system and the room acoustics. My system has not changed for a good while because I am very happy with it and feel it plays and presents music much to my liking. I do like to try new things but my continuous "box swapping " days are over. I learnt many years ago that you can convince yourself that every shiny new thing that comes along sounds better but in actual fact it usually just sounds different and it is those differences that torment the mind and lead to dissatisfaction with ones own system.
It is great when you get to a point where you really like how your system plays music and you can sit back and enjoy it rather than continuously analysing the sound and whether it is resolving detail enough etc. This is like photography enthusiasts who do pixel peeking, they are more concerned with the tiny details rather than the bigger picture and I fall into the later camp. For me the Big picture is what matters.
So my system is pretty much a fixed point but over the last few months I investigated the last area I think any of us consider in our hifi journey, room acoustics. I have spent 40 years buying and listening to hifi equipment and I never did anything in those years to change or consciously control my room acoustics. Ok I may have drawn the curtains but that was about it. I went through tonnes of equipment seeking the best set up I could and tried everything from polishing fuses to mad cable swapping in order to get a better sound. I have had numerous amplifiers, speakers, turntables and cartridges and a few DACS;) and it was always about how these items sound and how they changed the sound but never about the room. I think I have always known the room was an influence but it is only in recent years I realised how much it was responsible for what you hear. I consider it as influential as any of the equipment you put into your listening room.
After drawing a line in the sand with the equipment I decided hesitantly to just see what could be done to my room to change the sound for hopefully better. I have written a fair bit about how it has changed the sound of my system on previous posts so these are just a few thoughts on how I consider it has influenced the music and performance I am now hearing off the record.
My first choice is a jazz album I use regularly with Duke Ellington on piano and Ray Brown on double bass. It is a very simple set up and miked in the studio with a very clean and realistic presentation. When you listen to the album "This ones for Blanton" it is as if you have the two performers playing intimately for you in your own room. Clever and thoughtful recording. So the track I listened too is called 'do nothing until you hear from me". Recorded in 1975 so pure analogue if you get the original pressing.
Playing this record before and after the room acoustic work is interesting and I will try and describe the differences before and after. So before the room was treated it was a very live and immediate sound but almost too forward verging on a bit of harshness on some notes. A few piano keys jarred a bit as if the recording was a bit too hot. But as I was to find out it was not the recording but the room that accentuated this and over egged the recording. With the room treatment not only did all harshness disappear the whole weight and tonal quality of the piano improved. Also the acoustic space and dimensionality of the piano improved. It appears in the left of the recording and with the acoustic treatment there is a lovely palpability and richness to the harmonics from the instrument. It is almost a few octaves lower than before.
This also had a bearing on the double bass which is positioned in the centre of the recording. The bass now sounds deeper and more woody/ resonant. The harmonics are more vibrant and untangled so the singular complexity of the instrument is revealed in a more believable realistic way. Nothing is lost in the recording and in fact small details I heard before are still there but it as if the whole recording has been fleshed out in a more natural and wholesome way. There is a touch more richness to the whole sound that is expressed through improved tonality.
This was the first of the recordings I have ear marked to assess the work I have done on the room acoustics and I will listen pop down my thoughts on others later. But that is probably enough to bore you on this post.:)
So often it is the recording that gets blamed. Totally overlooks the fact that the recording was made by experienced professionals and monitored and mastered on high quality equipment in an acoustically treated space. Then it is played back on a system of boutique tat chosen and set up by an amateur in a poor acoustic. And he blames 'cloth-eared engineers' because the top end takes his head off.
It's a funny old game.
So often it is the recording that gets blamed. Totally overlooks the fact that the recording was made by experienced professionals and monitored and mastered on high quality equipment in an acoustically treated space. Then it is played back on a system of boutique tat chosen and set up by an amateur in a poor acoustic. And he blames 'cloth-eared engineers' because the top end takes his head off.
It's a funny old game.
Very true Martin. I wonder how many other recordings I have dismissed after hearing them on poor equipment and in tragic acoustic environments?
Very true Martin. I wonder how many other recordings I have dismissed after hearing them on poor equipment and in tragic acoustic environments?
I know I have a fair few, like Aretha Franklin 'Soul 69' where her voice overloads the mic on occasion and I wondered for years why they didn't do another take.
In reality it was my set-up introducing the distortion - probably clipping - the recording is clean.
or one meet I went to where some prototype speakers were being demoed, at first with a Sony CD player. Not a great sound, the CD player was blamed (digital - tool of the devil) so a reel to reel was wheeled out.
First tune played sounded even worse - 'Poor recording' said everyone. I mean this is R2R - analogue gold - so it couldn't be that.
In reality the speakers just needed more work on the crossover.
How many audio hifi meet ups have you been too or indeed hifi shows in hotel rooms where it is obvious the acoustics are not here best and you hear something and you thing ahh that sounds terrible. May not be the fault of the equipment or the recording but the room.
How many audio hifi meet ups have you been too or indeed hifi shows in hotel rooms where it is obvious the acoustics are not here best and you hear something and you thing ahh that sounds terrible. May not be the fault of the equipment or the recording but the room.
certainly must have happened. Although when the rooms are identical and one room has great sound and the next doesn't, that variable is sort of eliminated.
Surprised at last year's NW Audio show how many exhibitors were using room treatments. That's not been the case on previous years.
Very few poor sounding systems last year*, that's not been the case previously either. Some connection?
* does take the fun out of it a bit, nothing more entertaining than a ludicrously expensive system, choc full of foo, sounding harsh and hard. Or just bland.
certainly must have happened. Although when the rooms are identical and one room has great sound and the next doesn't, that variable is sort of eliminated.
Surprised at last year's NW Audio show how many exhibitors were using room treatments. That's not been the case on previous years.
Very few poor sounding systems last year*, that's not been the case previously either. Some connection?
* does take the fun out of it a bit, nothing more entertaining than a ludicrously expensive system, choc full of foo, sounding harsh and hard. Or just bland.
:lol:
I heard an industry reviewer on a Podcast recently and he said he preferred to have equipment with him for many weeks or a few months to evaluate as it took this long for him to really know what its strengths and weaknesses were especially when evaluating with alternative equipment and speakers. Its a complex business and I feel a judgment on anything needs time and lengthy consideration.
Also important to go back to where you were with your system to see if your were really imagining an improvement or whether a piece of equipment turns out to be just different and a sideways move. The more I work on my system and room acoustics the more I realise the whole process is so personal and unique to your own environment and listening preferences.
Isn't that what I said in the previous post?
Not much new happening in the music room at the moment but I did have a session listening to a range of 2M Black stylus after my new 2M suspension collapsed.
I went back to my FGS 2M Black stylus and to be frank I was underwhelmed, it did not have any verve or dynamic impact and sounded a bit dull compared to the standard stylus. I have a worn (800-1000 Hour) stylus which I use as a back up and it sounds very good indeed still with plenty of detail and no discernible distortion or wear evident. Actually sounded great.
I had a play with the digital set up and a small HRT DAC which actually sounded very good until my digital boredom threshold kicked in. Always interesting to try something new though.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52806633165_c3fb97ec70_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oskNhv)234EE649-EED4-4FBA-865B-9BDCD24FE8FB (https://flic.kr/p/2oskNhv) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
I have not really been listening to the system that much in recent weeks as I have a new toy to play with. Recently my beautiful SONY OLED TV decided to throw up a screen malfunction where a row of pixels turned bright green and were permanently displayed on the screen. John Lewis sent out an engineer and the TV was condemned as it would have required screen replacement which was 90% cost of the TV so that was the end of my SONY. I have always bought SONY TVs as they have always been great up until now. This TV failed after 20 months! I have other TVs from SONY that are still going after 15years!
So decided to make a change and bought an LG OLED TV which has turned out to be a great choice. I would say the picture is actually better than the SONY now I have calibrated it and the sound is very close. I believe LG supply the OLED screens to SONY so not surprised they make a good job of their own technology. Anyway I am very chuffed with it and it was £500 cheaper than the equivalent SONY!
Music is therefore taking a bit of a back seat at the moment whilst I play with the new toy!
Pigmy Pony
10-04-2023, 10:21
Not much new happening in the music room at the moment but I did have a session listening to a range of 2M Black stylus after my new 2M suspension collapsed.
I went back to my FGS 2M Black stylus and to be frank I was underwhelmed, it did not have any verve or dynamic impact and sounded a bit dull compared to the standard stylus. I have a worn (800-1000 Hour) stylus which I use as a back up and it sounds very good indeed still with plenty of detail and no discernible distortion or wear evident. Actually sounded great.
I had a play with the digital set up and a small HRT DAC which actually sounded very good until my digital boredom threshold kicked in. Always interesting to try something new though.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52806633165_c3fb97ec70_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oskNhv)234EE649-EED4-4FBA-865B-9BDCD24FE8FB (https://flic.kr/p/2oskNhv) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
I have not really been listening to the system that much in recent weeks as I have a new toy to play with. Recently my beautiful SONY OLED TV decided to throw up a screen malfunction where a row of pixels turned bright green and were permanently displayed on the screen. John Lewis sent out an engineer and the TV was condemned as it would have required screen replacement which was 90% cost of the TV so that was the end of my SONY. I have always bought SONY TVs as they have always been great up until now. This TV failed after 20 months! I have other TVs from SONY that are still going after 15years!
So decided to make a change and bought an LG OLED TV which has turned out to be a great choice. I would say the picture is actually better than the SONY now I have calibrated it and the sound is very close. I believe LG supply the OLED screens to SONY so not surprised they make a good job of their own technology. Anyway I am very chuffed with it and it was £500 cheaper than the equivalent SONY!
Music is therefore taking a bit of a back seat at the moment whilst I play with the new toy!
I'm betting you were just unlucky with your Sony telly. 20 months is piss poor. But I'm glad the LG is doing it for you. We have one, a 'C' series 55". We bought it used, 12 months old for a third of the list price, and 3 years later still as good as new.
I'm a bit curious about your comment re. the FGS 2MB, I thought they were meant to be the dog's danglies - my 2M Black needs a new stylus soon and I had considered the FGS re-tip. Maybe I should just replace with standard, which I know and like. If it ain't broke... :)
my 55'' LG is coming up to 5 years old not had any issues with it.
If it fails will move up to 65'' I think. Will mean removing a shelf so I can fit it in the alcove but no big deal.
Previous set was a Sony, it did 11 years before the HDMI sockets both failed. Turned out it was just a blown fuse. It still soldiers on in a mate's son's bedroom.
Got a Sony Trinitron CRT computer monitor, still works perfectly. No idea how old that is since I bought it used but I would guess thirty years at least. I've had it more than 20.
All this is 'Made in Japan' Sony ofc, none of this Malaysia or China stuff.
Pigmy Pony
10-04-2023, 11:05
If it fails will move up to 65'' I think. Will mean removing a shelf so I can fit it in the alcove but no big deal.
Or just buy next door, knock through and get one of these.
https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/incoming/article24989352.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200d/0_Screen-Shot-2021-09-15-at-110148.jpg
That will always be the dream.
Would need to remove the first floor too though. I suppose I could do without that, it only gets used for sleeping.
Interesting that Disney and most of Hollywood film studies are now moving away from SONY and replacing everything with LG!
Take a look at this 10 mins into the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbiVpjWAKwg&t=721s
I'm betting you were just unlucky with your Sony telly. 20 months is piss poor. But I'm glad the LG is doing it for you. We have one, a 'C' series 55". We bought it used, 12 months old for a third of the list price, and 3 years later still as good as new.
I'm a bit curious about your comment re. the FGS 2MB, I thought they were meant to be the dog's danglies - my 2M Black needs a new stylus soon and I had considered the FGS re-tip. Maybe I should just replace with standard, which I know and like. If it ain't broke... :)
Hi Steve,
I did like the FGS 2M retip which had a wider soundstage and a bit more going on in the lower frequencies but the standard 2M stylus runs rings round it in extracting detail/resolution and pin point imaging. As I am getting older I am appreciating what the 2M does in the higher frequencies as this is where alll the detail occurs but this is sometimes at the expense of some tonal qualities which is where the FGS wins!
Pigmy Pony
10-04-2023, 21:27
Thanks for the info James. All things considered, including my almost non-existent HF hearing, the standard 2MB is probably the best fit for me. And at about £370 for a replacement stylus I think that's pretty good VFM.
Thanks for the info James. All things considered, including my almost non-existent HF hearing, the standard 2MB is probably the best fit for me. And at about £370 for a replacement stylus I think that's pretty good VFM.
I think this would be the best way to go.:thumbsup:
I am spending the day ensuring the system is up to scratch and set up just so as I have another guest visiting tomorrow. He usually listens to digital and is a massive live gig fan so he often listens to the raw real thing rather than a recording. This will be a very tough act to follow but I have a few choice recordings that may live up to expectation.
Most concerning is that I can get all my digital gear to talk to each other nicely as last time I had a guest it did not want to play ball for 30 mins as the DDC has internal switching which is activated when connecting a DAC and can get knocked off easily which means all I get is music from the laptop.
Vinyl is so much more straightforward. Pull a record out, pop it on and lower the stylus. Which has me pondering the state of digital playback currently. I was reading an amusing ding dong regarding the ever convoluted shenanigans of some digital set ups which consist no longer of a CD player straight into an amp but rather a music server connected to a string of gear....DAC + linear PSU, DDC + Linear PSU etc and then I realised that was my set up!:doh:
Are we forever thinking that there is some way around digital in order to make it more listenable by adding yet more and more boxes and complications. Looking back at the direction digital audio has taken and lessons supposedly learned there have been so many ways to try an extract those bits perfectly without loosing any to produce audio nirvana.:)
Alas I feel there will yet another miraculous discovery that until now has not been found which will result in us getting closer to the recording and closer to the original analogue sound. But it will need some computational trickery similar to what has happened in digital photography where once the image has been captured by the sensor the computer algorithms take over and the image is given a digital (computational photography) make over which produces a fantastic picture which you would be hard pressed to achieve with just a camera. This is the approach phones are taking and will soon make camera photography a small niche hobby practised by a tiny few.
How many times have we heard in reviews and on forums folk messing with digital equipment and they mention the words "it sounds more like analogue". I will only be convinced when it does sound like analogue and not "more" like analogue. I feel this is still someway off and I think it will be achieved by some added computer wizardry rather than galvanic isolation, re clocking and bit perfect files?
Already on the market, just download the software to your laptop:
https://i.ibb.co/ch70mQd/vinyl-1336044361.webp (https://ibb.co/fdPfcH7)
Pigmy Pony
12-04-2023, 17:24
Even if I could understand how all these boxes containing the next new thing in digital playback worked, and knew what to do when some part of it all decides to play silly buggers, I still don't want my lounge looking like a 70s Tandy storeroom.
A decent vinyl spinner and a competent CD player. That'll do for me :)
i enjoyed my vinyl more than anything, although digital probably sounds better; but the hands on with vinyl is so much part of the appreciation of sounds, it cannot be dissed.
but, lack of movement meant it had to go and i have to say im pretty pleased with my digital stuff; my latest pick up of dap and balanced phones has, sonically surpassed where i was by a margin, and its portable too if i wish it..
Even if I could understand how all these boxes containing the next new thing in digital playback worked, and knew what to do when some part of it all decides to play silly buggers, I still don't want my lounge looking like a 70s Tandy storeroom.
A decent vinyl spinner and a competent CD player. That'll do for me :)
Keep it simple I say.
i enjoyed my vinyl more than anything, although digital probably sounds better; but the hands on with vinyl is so much part of the appreciation of sounds, it cannot be dissed.
but, lack of movement meant it had to go and i have to say im pretty pleased with my digital stuff; my latest pick up of dap and balanced phones has, sonically surpassed where i was by a margin, and its portable too if i wish it..
What DAP are you using Grant and can you use it in your system aswell?
Already on the market, just download the software to your laptop:
https://i.ibb.co/ch70mQd/vinyl-1336044361.webp (https://ibb.co/fdPfcH7)
Brilliant Martin - just the ticket!
Brilliant Martin - just the ticket!
you can get non-comedy ones too I think. Just a download. I don't think it will do what you want to do to digital (I'm really not sure what you want to do :D) but might be worth a try if only out of interest?
you can get non-comedy ones too I think. Just a download. I don't think it will do what you want to do to digital (I'm really not sure what you want to do :D) but might be worth a try if only out of interest?
You never know, folk are doing allsorts of bonkers things nowadays to get the most out of digital!:lol:
Even if I could understand how all these boxes containing the next new thing in digital playback worked, and knew what to do when some part of it all decides to play silly buggers, I still don't want my lounge looking like a 70s Tandy storeroom.
A decent vinyl spinner and a competent CD player. That'll do for me :)
I have eight 'boxes' next to my TT (SUT; RIAA equalisation amp; tuner; preamp; CD player; DAC, balanced/unbalanced converter, plus necessary power supplies). So whilst it doesn't look like a Tandy store, it does look a bit like the corner of a laboratory.
And if I were to include the graphic equaliser and a tape machine, then it would look more like the corner of a recording studio. :doh:
Whilst setting up my system yesterday I decided to look at removing the bass suck out that occurs in the room in my usual seating position. I know its there as the Heco speakers sound bass lite in my listening position and I know they are capable of 20Hz in the low end so I decided to follow the advice from the Real Traps site information which suggests sitting 38% away from the front or rear wall to the speaker position which avoids bass nodes. So I moved my listening position 2-3 feet forward and the transformation was remarkable, a bit like moving your chair out of the shade and into the sun. It was that dramatic.
Now I know this was possibly the case as I have evaluated my room and moved myself or the speakers before but the positioning requires me to leave the speakers 50cm from the front wall where they sound best but it does mean I have had to move quite a distance forward to reach this optimum position. Not only is the bass massively improved , almost like switching it off and then on, so too is the whole dynamic soundstage and imaging characteristics. The room treatment is still doing its thing but I have found the listening position which eliminates bass suck out. Fantastic .
BUT it is not really practical for everyday set up of the room as it positions my sofa adjacent to my wood burner so yes I can now enjoy the full range and dynamic nature of the Heco speakers at the expense of going up in flames! So really it is only suitable when I don't light the burner which is about 8 months of the year.
Tonights listening session should be fun with my guest. Planning to do a digital session then swap to vinyl. I wonder which he is going to prefer especially as I have bigged up my vinyl set up for ages now and he is coming to hear the truth.:eek:
Good fun the other evening with my music guest. Always refreshing to get the perspective from a fresh pair of ears, especially someone who has a very wide and deep appreciation of music. His preferred listening is usually to the live thing and so a HIFI system is almost a second best. Also good to get someone here listening who is not a Forum keyboard warrior like myself or an Audiofool (like myself) but just someone with a great understanding and huge experience of music. His preferred route is now digital and indeed he uses a bluenode 2 and has a fairly decent system but his interest is 99% music and 1% audio equipment which is a ratio that many of us would be uncomfortable with??:)
So we kicked off with some digital music or should I say we tried too but alas the digital gremlins struck again and trying to get my phone to talk to my laptop to talk to my DDC and then to my DAC failed - AGAIN! Funny since I had been listening to the system all afternoon! After half an hour of fiddling sound came out of the speakers. Having had this issue a number of times now and other digital hiccups I have now identified and resolved the problem. It was a poor USB C - USB B cable. Who says cables don't matter!?:). I have purchased something much better and the digital gremlins have been banished!
Back to the music and we proceeded with a range of material chosen to highlight the best digital can do. To be honest the system sounded great and my guest commented. "WHY would you need anything else". After an hour of great music and some decent sound I felt nervous, only for a second, to move onto some vinyl.
I played one track and it was game over. My friends face said it all but he couldn't speak. His head was shaking in disbelief which reminded me of my own experience going back to vinyl in 2015.
glad you enjoyed it and good youve hopfully found said gremlin and ousted him/her/it ;)
glad you enjoyed it and good youve hopfully found said gremlin and ousted him/her/it ;)
Thanks Grant, I have suspected for sometime my USB cable was a problem. Think the connectors were poor quality and caused drop outs on the digital data stream which turned off the DDC.
Pigmy Pony
16-04-2023, 14:14
So we kicked off with some digital music or should I say we tried too but alas the digital gremlins struck again and trying to get my phone to talk to my laptop to talk to my DDC and then to my DAC failed - AGAIN! Funny since I had been listening to the system all afternoon! After half an hour of fiddling sound came out of the speakers. Having had this issue a number of times now and other digital hiccups I have now identified and resolved the problem. It was a poor USB C - USB B cable. Who says cables don't matter!?:). I have purchased something much better and the digital gremlins have been banished!
I just wanted to play some music, but...
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP._XNoGR7mS2UXX48E6B4lNwAAAA?pid=ImgDet&rs=1
I like what you've done with your hair James :)
I just wanted to play some music, but...
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP._XNoGR7mS2UXX48E6B4lNwAAAA?pid=ImgDet&rs=1
I like what you've done with your hair James :)
:lol:
Wakefield Turntables
17-04-2023, 18:49
Jim, here's a link to experiments with aluminium and panzerholz, might be useful to bung under your deck?
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=42172.0;topicseen
Jim, here's a link to experiments with aluminium and panzerholz, might be useful to bung under your deck?
https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=42172.0;topicseen
Cheers Andy.
Had this cable made up by a friend. It uses some unbelievably pure copper manufactured for top secret military applications. The process is also new and involves some sort of extruding process that has just been developed. The copper used has never been used before in a cable and is so pure and the atomic alignment of the molecules is so perfect it cannot be measured.
I am going to wire up my whole system with this stuff including my amplifiers, speakers, plug sockets. lamps and the hoover.
Once heard never forgotten, in fact it is so transparent it cannot be heard and makes all the rest of your components in the system almost visible. You would not believe the potential your system has until you try this stuff.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52826841774_6ce5ff5199_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ou8nAN)A829D9DE-8FDA-4BB8-8C9D-6CCB1DC1410D (https://flic.kr/p/2ou8nAN) by J (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Wakefield Turntables
18-04-2023, 14:43
Wind up!!??!!
Had me at hoover... :D
turns your hoover into a hovercraft:eyebrows:
Also reduces the noise from the hoover!:)
Also reduces the noise from the hoover!:)
stealth hoovering??
Gutted - I could do with improving the performance of my hoover.
Hoover now rewired and my system sounds so much better!
On a serious note I did purchase this cable for my digital system and have been evaluating its contribution over the past few nights and it has had quite a profound effect. Not only do I not get total loss of connection anymore, I don't have any glitches or drop outs in sound. Well that's a start.
On further listening I have found I don't need to attenuate the volume control as much ? Strange. But the most noticeable difference is the removal of a glare and haze that was cast over the whole sound which made it sound very harsh and processed. Everything now sounds way better and less synthetic with no glare at all. So it appears I have been nobbling my digital system for some time now without knowing.:doh:
The cable is from UGreen and cost about £8. The connectors fit very tight and snug and it appears to be very well made indeed. So if you are looking for a cheap USB B - USB -C cable or USB A- USB C check out what UGreen have to offer as it has proven to work beyond expectation in my system and makes digital almost listenable!:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52827665531_5422f488c4_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oucAtv)84B7FBAF-981A-4162-924A-21E28E984837 (https://flic.kr/p/2oucAtv) by , on Flickr
Embassy World Hoovering Championship,
Live from the Crucible Theatre.
Sponsored by Jimbo Cables
https://i.imgur.com/VdwP69G.jpeg
Always looking for possible Isolation improvements for my turntable and I came across these.
https://www.ginkgoaudio.com/product-category/vcs/cloud22/.
The reviews of them are very good and very convincing so rather than purchase these exact balls I have once again asked for my partner to help as she has lots of experience with Wool and can spin wool balls with a ball winder. No smutty jokes and this is not a wind up!:lol:
I need to purchase the wool and my other half has kindly agreed to manufacture something very similar. As soon as I have something available I will evaluate under the VPI turntable. Take a look at this chaps review.
https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/gingko-audio-vibration-control-solution-vcs-toolkit-part-2/
The white paper makes interesting reading compared to spikes used under speakers!
https://www.ginkgoaudio.com/cloud22-whitepaper/
Could you really wind a ball of wool tight enough so it wouldn't completely squash flat under the weight?
Could you really wind a ball of wool tight enough so it wouldn't completely squash flat under the weight?
I am not sure if there is something else at the core of the Cloud 22 balls but you can wind wool very tight on a machine. I had a look at one last night and it was very firm and difficult to squash, almost same as a tennis ball. The wool is then felted which gives that finished appearance to the Cloud 22 balls.
I will have a go and evaluate.
Pigmy Pony
22-04-2023, 15:59
Could you really wind a ball of wool tight enough so it wouldn't completely squash flat under the weight?
Probably be ok if it has a sheep inside it :)
Probably be ok if it has a sheep inside it :)
would need to be a lamb otherwise the speaker will sit too high.
Pigmy Pony
22-04-2023, 16:44
Amazing the things you can learn watching Ewe Tube.
Probably be ok if it has a sheep inside it :)Or some sheep purl. I'll get my coat
So before I start my Wool Ball project I decided to investigate another Wool based material - Felt!
Felt is manufactured from Wool and the fibres are rearranged via a water agitation method. This is 100% Wool but in a different and probably more usable form.
I have decided to use double layers of felt under the turntable motor and turntable feet in order to reduce/remove vibration bing transferred from the motor and into the turntable via the feet. This is very audible if I turn up the volume but previously I had mitigated this issue using sorbothane. Tonight I will evaluate the Felt and its effect on vibration transfer.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52842680158_fdf142b30c_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ovwxNo)31B4BC4A-C54B-42F3-9BD2-4DC8D7F46E95 (https://flic.kr/p/2ovwxNo) by [/url], on Flickr
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ovrkkG]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52841662682_bc13504be0_k.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/)D890426C-CB79-4609-B30A-FE144FE5B078 (https://flic.kr/p/2ovrkkG) by y (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
Well very quickly as soon as I had all the system powered up it was obvious the Felt failed to achieve what I wanted, in fact it made things worse!:doh:
Ah well you got to try these things.
Lets hear what the giant wool balls can do when I get them sorted!
at least you didnt type felt giant balls:D
at least you didnt type felt giant balls:D
Yes I must be careful writing up some of these experiments as some folk may get confused as to what is going on!:lol:
walpurgis
25-04-2023, 07:40
I think it was Eric Morecambe who used to say he had "a long felt want", but we never did get to see it! :D
brian2957
25-04-2023, 08:07
Some you win etc. Worth a try and it didn't cost anything. The best experiments :)
Wakefield Turntables
25-04-2023, 08:17
Keep experimenting it what helps make things fun! :)
Yeah your both right. You don't know until you try.
I have reverted back to small sorbathane discs under the motor feet (Not the turntable) and this by far has produced the best and most dramatic results. Lowers the vibration considerably but I think I could do better. This however would involve a cut out for the motor to sit on which is easier said than done as the compact laminate board is like glass/granite to cut!
Just a boring very dull update on the hum and buzz I was getting from the Pioneer SX590 when using phono stage. This has now been completely eliminated and the real culprit found. I thought it was to do with a cable which in one way is true. I found that the phono cable from the GL75 when moved into a different position stopped the noise but it the actual cause of the noise was from an LED light plug. This was in the same socket as the Pioneer receiver and once I switched it off all noise was eliminated.
So if you have any noise issues or potential poor digital performance remove any LED light plugged into or near your system and hopeful things will improve. Had the same issue in my main system at Christmas with the lights plugged into the same ring main. This just goes to show how much these type of unfiltered devices can dump large amounts of noise into your system.
I am now off to try and find something that may quieten down my normal lamps plugged into the ring main or I could just sit in the dark with candles!?:lol:
brian2957
27-04-2023, 18:35
Good you got it sorted mate. That old Pioneer is a lovely looking amp from the days when vinyl was king and I'm sure the built in phono stage is very good indeed :)
Good you got it sorted mate. That old Pioneer is a lovely looking amp from the days when vinyl was king and I'm sure the built in phono stage is very good indeed :)
Sounds great and always seems just right. There is definitely a synergy with the GL75 and AT95e. Radio isn't too bad either.
Another guest round last night to listen to the system. He had a look through my record collection and was surprisingly knowledgeable about many of the LPs I spin quite regularly. He had abandoned vinyl many many years ago and had only listened to some digital formats for the past 40 years but still had a considerable record collection - more of which later!:eek:
So we kicked off with some Ry Cooder and his first reaction was "those are fantastic speakers". I agreed they were OK but of course it is the sum of all the parts that creates the finished SQ. He thought valves were a bit anachronistic and was surprised it was a modern amp but with NOS valves - fair enough. However his biggest surprise was how great vinyl sounded. He had not heard a record since 1980 and was stunned at what could be dragged out of those grooves. He reminded me of myself back in 2015 when I listened to vinyl again after a 25 year absence.
So although we were only going to have a casual listening session it turned out to be quite intense as I upped the anti with ever increasing sonic spectaculars. 4 hours later we eventually had to call it a day but before my guest left we had a quick chat about some of his record collection. Now he had been collecting records from the late 60's onwards till he stopped in 1981 but even a casual recollection of what was in storage had him staying for another hour as I introduced him to Discogs and the first album he wanted to look at was King Crimson - In the court of the Crimson king. So he had a near mint copy £550. He had original pressings of Beatles stuff and other unimaginable treasures - ZEP! So you can imagine the disbelief he had when he saw some of the prices. He muttered about original Floyd pressings including DSOTM.
I bet he didn't sleep last night, I certainly didn't as this record collection could be coming my way for a perusal!:eek:
Pigmy Pony
03-05-2023, 13:31
Another guest round last night to listen to the system. He had a look through my record collection and was surprisingly knowledgeable about many of the LPs I spin quite regularly. He had abandoned vinyl many many years ago and had only listened to some digital formats for the past 40 years but still had a considerable record collection - more of which later!:eek:
So we kicked off with some Ry Cooder and his first reaction was "those are fantastic speakers". I agreed they were OK but of course it is the sum of all the parts that creates the finished SQ. He thought valves were a bit anachronistic and was surprised it was a modern amp but with NOS valves - fair enough. However his biggest surprise was how great vinyl sounded. He had not heard a record since 1980 and was stunned at what could be dragged out of those grooves. He reminded me of myself back in 2015 when I listened to vinyl again after a 25 year absence.
So although we were only going to have a casual listening session it turned out to be quite intense as I upped the anti with ever increasing sonic spectaculars. 4 hours later we eventually had to call it a day but before my guest left we had a quick chat about some of his record collection. Now he had been collecting records from the late 60's onwards till he stopped in 1981 but even a casual recollection of what was in storage had him staying for another hour as I introduced him to Discogs and the first album he wanted to look at was King Crimson - In the court of the Crimson king. So he had a near mint copy £550. He had original pressings of Beatles stuff and other unimaginable treasures - ZEP! So you can imagine the disbelief he had when he saw some of the prices. He muttered about original Floyd pressings including DSOTM.
I bet he didn't sleep last night, I certainly didn't as this record collection could be coming my way for a perusal!:eek:
Oh dear. The correct order would be:
1. Perusal
2. Purchase
3. Introduce him to Discogs so he can get values of the ones you didn't want anyway :D
I didn't think that one through did I Steve ?:lol:
Got me thinking about vinyl and the escalating price that now seems to be happening on the back of Greedflation. Obviously 10 years ago or so you could buy bucket fulls of vinyl records second hand for absolutely peanuts. I used to go to a local indoor market where there were two record stores and the owner would price up the LPs at ridiculously low prices usual around £4 an album and that was for the good stuff. I would grab 10-15 records and instead of adding up their price the owner would just sell it as a job lot usually about £20..for about 10 records. And I was buying the classic stuff which now fetches eye watering prices.
If I had know then what I know now I could have hoovered up huge amounts of the really great releases and sold on for a fortune but hey ho didn't have a crystal ball. But now most of the really good stuff and classic recordings are priced way above what I would call reasonable and now the newly released stuff is starting to escalate in price. Most new vinyl a few years back rarely exceeded £20 but now it is priced up at £30-£40.
So with most of the worlds population streaming everything for nothing what does the record industry think will happen when young folk who are already strapped for cash are then being asked to stump up £30 for a record which is not guaranteed to be perfectly produced. I have bought so much stuff that has had to go back for various reasons and simple gave up trying to get a nice clean copy of Pink Floyd Endless River. The industry is in danger I feel of killing off its sales with high pricing of records as folk will simply buy fewer or none at all.
But it still has a long way to catch up with Mint or Near mint classic albums available via Discogs looking at some of the prices so maybe new stuff is actually good value?
Got me thinking about vinyl and the escalating price that now seems to be happening on the back of Greedflation. Obviously 10 years ago or so you could buy bucket fulls of vinyl records second hand for absolutely peanuts. I used to go to a local indoor market where there were two record stores and the owner would price up the LPs at ridiculously low prices usual around £4 an album and that was for the good stuff. I would grab 10-15 records and instead of adding up their price the owner would just sell it as a job lot usually about £20..for about 10 records. And I was buying the classic stuff which now fetches eye watering prices.
If I had know then what I know now I could have hoovered up huge amounts of the really great releases and sold on for a fortune but hey ho didn't have a crystal ball. But now most of the really good stuff and classic recordings are priced way above what I would call reasonable and now the newly released stuff is starting to escalate in price. Most new vinyl a few years back rarely exceeded £20 but now it is priced up at £30-£40.
So with most of the worlds population streaming everything for nothing what does the record industry think will happen when young folk who are already strapped for cash are then being asked to stump up £30 for a record which is not guaranteed to be perfectly produced. I have bought so much stuff that has had to go back for various reasons and simple gave up trying to get a nice clean copy of Pink Floyd Endless River. The industry is in danger I feel of killing off its sales with high pricing of records as folk will simply buy fewer or none at all.
But it still has a long way to catch up with Mint or Near mint classic albums available via Discogs looking at some of the prices so maybe new stuff is actually good value?
50% of new vinyl never gets played, and that figure rises with the young.
AJSki2fly
04-05-2023, 07:21
Got me thinking about vinyl and the escalating price that now seems to be happening on the back of Greedflation. Obviously 10 years ago or so you could buy bucket fulls of vinyl records second hand for absolutely peanuts. I used to go to a local indoor market where there were two record stores and the owner would price up the LPs at ridiculously low prices usual around £4 an album and that was for the good stuff. I would grab 10-15 records and instead of adding up their price the owner would just sell it as a job lot usually about £20..for about 10 records. And I was buying the classic stuff which now fetches eye watering prices.
If I had know then what I know now I could have hoovered up huge amounts of the really great releases and sold on for a fortune but hey ho didn't have a crystal ball. But now most of the really good stuff and classic recordings are priced way above what I would call reasonable and now the newly released stuff is starting to escalate in price. Most new vinyl a few years back rarely exceeded £20 but now it is priced up at £30-£40.
So with most of the worlds population streaming everything for nothing what does the record industry think will happen when young folk who are already strapped for cash are then being asked to stump up £30 for a record which is not guaranteed to be perfectly produced. I have bought so much stuff that has had to go back for various reasons and simple gave up trying to get a nice clean copy of Pink Floyd Endless River. The industry is in danger I feel of killing off its sales with high pricing of records as folk will simply buy fewer or none at all.
But it still has a long way to catch up with Mint or Near mint classic albums available via Discogs looking at some of the prices so maybe new stuff is actually good value?
Well I think you need to put new LP record prices into perspective. When I was buying new LPs in the early 80’s good ones were £4 to £5 and an average weekly pay was about £125, so about 4% of weekly income.
The average weekly wage in 2023 is reported as £630 and LPs are around £20-30; so taking a £25 average that’s around 4%.
So in reality the price of a LP has not gone up relatively, it’s just us old duffers feel they have as we still think of the £5 LP.
Used or older vinyl values IMO are affected by various factors, in no particular order, condition, rarity, when pressed(1st pressings generally cost more), collectibility(worldwide popularity of an artist eg. The Beatles). Another factor is a lot of older records 50-80s we’re not generally available across the world in their day, but now it is a world market with a much bigger population/market place, so what we might think of as an easily purchased record back in the day may no longer fit that as lots more people want a great copy, so market demand pushes prices up. However I do think some records on Discogs are ridiculously priced.
I can understand us old duffers moaning about prices but I wonder what the younger "Free" music generation think?
AJSki2fly
04-05-2023, 08:46
I can understand us old duffers moaning about prices but I wonder what the younger "Free" music generation think?
I suspect they do not think much, if they buy a record they probably just accept the price as it is, much like most do with mobile phones, they pay whatever it is for what they want, after all they have loads of credit available which we didn't back in the 70-80s, well not many did.
rmcin626
04-05-2023, 08:52
Well I think you need to put new LP record prices into perspective. When I was buying new LPs in the early 80’s good ones were £4 to £5 and an average weekly pay was about £125, so about 4% of weekly income.
The average weekly wage in 2023 is reported as £630 and LPs are around £20-30; so taking a £25 average that’s around 4%.
So in reality the price of a LP has not gone up relatively, it’s just us old duffers feel they have as we still think of the £5 LP.
Used or older vinyl values IMO are affected by various factors, in no particular order, condition, rarity, when pressed(1st pressings generally cost more), collectibility(worldwide popularity of an artist eg. The Beatles). Another factor is a lot of older records 50-80s we’re not generally available across the world in their day, but now it is a world market with a much bigger population/market place, so what we might think of as an easily purchased record back in the day may no longer fit that as lots more people want a great copy, so market demand pushes prices up. However I do think some records on Discogs are ridiculously priced.
I think you are correct new vinyl is priced at roughly 4% of an average weekly wage, prices do vary quite a bit depending of where you buy your new records.
Personally I don’t purchase a huge amount of new music, most of my purchases are replacing existing copies some of which are not in the best condition due to multiple moves I made in my 20’s, a long time ago.
I will try and obtain an original pressing or if there is an audiophile version I might go for that depending on price, especially if one the top guys has done the mastering.
After a break of about 20 years we now have someone in the town selling used records, nothing new is stocked, yet to buy anything as his prices are a bit high, looks like he is using Discogs as guide , using the highest price regardless of condition.
I think you are correct new vinyl is priced at roughly 4% of an average weekly wage, prices do vary quite a bit depending of where you buy your new records.
Personally I don’t purchase a huge amount of new music, most of my purchases are replacing existing copies some of which are not in the best condition due to multiple moves I made in my 20’s, a long time ago.
I will try and obtain an original pressing or if there is an audiophile version I might go for that depending on price, especially if one the top guys has done the mastering.
After a break of about 20 years we now have someone in the town selling used records, nothing new is stocked, yet to buy anything as his prices are a bit high, looks like he is using Discogs as guide , using the highest price regardless of condition.
its too much of a temptation for many; the disportionate variations from condition is alarming so folk tend to up classify,
rmcin626
04-05-2023, 09:10
its too much of a temptation for many; the disportionate variations from condition is alarming so folk tend to up classify,
The shop doubles up as a music store selling guitar spares etc., but some of his pricing is way off with regard to condition, one that amused me last week was £40 for a well battered copy of Argos, a record i have my version most be worth £80 as I would class mine as VG+ and his poor at best
The shop doubles up as a music store selling guitar spares etc., but some of his pricing is way off with regard to condition, one that amused me last week was £40 for a well battered copy of Argos, a record i have my version most be worth £80 as I would class mine as VG+ and his poor at best
probably added a zero. .. in fact in that nick its unlikely to make 4 quid(assuming its Argus)
rmcin626
04-05-2023, 09:48
probably added a zero. .. in fact in that nick its unlikely to make 4 quid(assuming its Argus)
Good spot I will blame the spell checker , there is a 50th Anniversary version coming out, might even be out, which you would better buying.
1985 I was on a tenner a day and an album was a fiver. A CD was £12
At £25 they are about the same price they always were.
If you look at the sales figures it's all streaming there's only a tiny minority of youngsters buying vinyl. Even CD shifts more units than vinyl although it's less revenue.
I bought a lot of used records when they were still cheap, as little as a quid a go even for first pressings. Wasn't intentional but best investment I ever made.
Now doing the same with CD.
1985 I was on a tenner a day and an album was a fiver. A CD was £12
At £25 they are about the same price they always were.
If you look at the sales figures it's all streaming there's only a tiny minority of youngsters buying vinyl. Even CD shifts more units than vinyl although it's less revenue.
I bought a lot of used records when they were still cheap, as little as a quid a go even for first pressings. Wasn't intentional but best investment I ever made.
Now doing the same with CD.
Same here.
MusicMagpie's a great source for building up the CD library again.
Similar to my vinyl days,
History repeats and its costing a fortune to get back the rarer CDs I sold went I went to streaming.
Selling Jack shit media wise now, including my Bluray collection.
Streamings cool,
But now back to vinyl and CD, go figure.
1985 I was on a tenner a day and an album was a fiver. A CD was £12
At £25 they are about the same price they always were.
If you look at the sales figures it's all streaming there's only a tiny minority of youngsters buying vinyl. Even CD shifts more units than vinyl although it's less revenue.
I bought a lot of used records when they were still cheap, as little as a quid a go even for first pressings. Wasn't intentional but best investment I ever made.
Now doing the same with CD.
I wonder why I never thought records were expensive at £10 in 1980?:scratch:
Same here.
MusicMagpie's a great source for building up the CD library again.
Similar to my vinyl days,
History repeats and its costing a fortune to get back the rarer CDs I sold went I went to streaming.
Selling Jack shit media wise now, including my Bluray collection.
Streamings cool,
But now back to vinyl and CD, go figure.
vinyl record is a precious artefact again, for a long time it was old hat. Before streaming you'd buy an album and show your mates 'Look what I got', like a caveman showing off an antelope he'd hunted down. Streaming just commoditised it all, took away that intrinsic worth. But like they say in 'Starship Troopers' - 'Something given has no value.'
When you had to stack shelves for half a day to get the music you wanted to hear - and travel somewhere and back to get it - then it all meant a lot more. I think that is coming back at least to some degree.
walpurgis
05-05-2023, 07:09
Yeah, having a download list isn't quite the same as admiring a record collection :).
boy, you do have a supr download list, and all in mint condition:ner:
Pigmy Pony
05-05-2023, 07:21
Streamings cool,
But now back to vinyl and CD, go figure.
Because that's how we are, we see what's cool and go off in the opposite direction :doh:
Pigmy Pony
05-05-2023, 07:25
Yeah, having a download list isn't quite the same as admiring a record collection :).
The exact opposite of porn. Better to have on laptop than a shelf full of mucky vids, I'm told :)
The exact opposite of porn. Better to have on laptop than a shelf full of mucky vids, I'm told :)
i, em, wouldnt, em... know:D
vinyl record is a precious artefact again, for a long time it was old hat. Before streaming you'd buy an album and show your mates 'Look what I got', like a caveman showing off an antelope he'd hunted down. Streaming just commoditised it all, took away that intrinsic worth. But like they say in 'Starship Troopers' - 'Something given has no value.'
When you had to stack shelves for half a day to get the music you wanted to hear - and travel somewhere and back to get it - then it all meant a lot more. I think that is coming back at least to some degree.
Good points there Martin, never thought about it like that.
I buy very small amounts of vinyl nowadays as I have so much already and really don't need anymore.
But if I do buy something it has to be great music, no fillers, good production and not just a listen once or twice type of record. I use Spotify for that!:lol:
Pigmy Pony
05-05-2023, 10:26
Alt-J An Awesome Wave
https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/5u0AAOSwN3xkTkTB/s-l300.webp
Damn, put this in the wrong place :doh: Sorry about that
I think I have found my next amplifier with 400 watt output so should drive the Heco speakers with very little effort. Amazing price which makes me think some of us audio nuts have been paying over the odds for our gear?
Not sure what the echo button will do to my room acoustics however...??:doh:
https://electromarket.co.uk/fenton-av440-hifi-amplifier-with-bluetooth-media-player-400w
The review is pure 80s “it goes LOUD”
Good points there Martin, never thought about it like that.
I buy very small amounts of vinyl nowadays as I have so much already and really don't need anymore.
But if I do buy something it has to be great music, no fillers, good production and not just a listen once or twice type of record. I use Spotify for that!:lol:
I use Youtube to check stuff out. Have to say don't find much these days, only bought one new release in the past 12 months.
When I was in sixth form had a mate who was youngest of nine. All his siblings had moved out but left their record collections so he had almost every classic from about 1970 onwards. Original pressings. We were pretty jealous of that. He had a pool table too, which was a bonus.
Lots of Friday nights drinking cheap wine, shooting pool and discovering bands we never heard of like Tull, Creedence, all that sort of thing. At the time the charts were full of really anodyne stuff like Pet Shop Boys and Duran Duran. I remember a youth pulling out 'Axis Bold As Love' and saying 'Who are deese?' (This was in Liverpool).
None of us had even heard of Hendrix. He stuck it on the old 'Sharp' music centre and we were all totally blown away.
I still listen to all that 70s stuff now. Tastes have expanded into jazz, soul, funk but the core hasn't changed.
There is so much great stuff from the 70s. I remember growing up hearing all that music around me constantly as the radio was the only way you could really hear new music.
Tommy vance - Friday rock show was a must!
Wakefield Turntables
05-05-2023, 19:44
I've got to admit to discovering more new "old" music than buying and discovering new "new" music. Does that make sense?
I've got to admit to discovering more new "old" music than buying and discovering new "new" music. Does that make sense?
A lot of my record collection is discovered "old" music. I do keep an interest in what it going on now across the music scene but much of it is woeful!
Wakefield Turntables
06-05-2023, 11:11
I do keep an interest in what it going on now across the music scene but much of it is woeful!
I hear yeah brah (or whatever the parlance is nowadays)! I've found myself migrating to old DECCA classical recordings and snapping these up whenever I see them rather than buying new stuff, weird but it honestly sounds exactly the same to me. I wonder if they said the same thing several hundred years ago when Bach was originally doing the rounds on the music charts in 17xx !!??!! :scratch:
I spoke yesterday to the chap who has a large collection of vinyl he is trying to dispose of and it got me thinking about how much fabulous stuff must be out there still to find its way onto the market. 60 -80 year olds still alive across the globe must still hold most of the worlds greatest treasures in their lofts, garages and in storage and many of them who are not into hifi or indeed vinyl maybe unaware of what value they are holding.
I recon only a fraction of what has come up for sale in the last 10 years is representative of the tip of the iceberg. I was looking at near mint 1st pressings of DSOTM this morning going for £2000-£3000. Led Zeppelin and loads of the classic rock stuff is fetching eye watering prices and I am sure there is plenty of it out there still to make its way onto the market. I just need to find a way of getting to it before the dealers and house clearance folk!
I can understand the high prices because these first pressings and stuff from analog tape may never be reproduced again and so will probably remain the best available copy of that music available for us to listen too. You can forget any digital copies in whatever format as they will never sound as good as as these original analog recordings. If they were recorded originally digitally that is a different matter but High Rez copies of analog do not cut it. The main problem being the mastering from these High Rez copies usually f&*ks around with the recording so it ends up sometimes sounding way different from the original.
Anyone offering a first pressing of Led Zeppelin 4 they no longer use up for sale? I can offer you a tenner!:lol:
I can understand the high prices because these first pressings and stuff from analog tape may never be reproduced again and so will probably remain the best available copy of that music available for us to listen too. You can forget any digital copies in whatever format as they will never sound as good as as these original analog recordings. If they were recorded originally digitally that is a different matter but High Rez copies of analog do not cut it. The main problem being the mastering from these High Rez copies usually f&*ks around with the recording so it ends up sometimes sounding way different from the original.
Nothing to do with the digital transfer and 16/44.1 is more than enough to completely capture any analogue recording from any era
I think the difference is what generation of master tape was used to make that digital copy.
original UK vinyl pressing of something like DSOTM is probably not many generations away from the production master, with later pressings they could be ten or twenty generations away. Each transfer doubles the noise. Who knows what these 'hi res' (lol) digital versions are being made from? They never say, which says it all.
Having said that I have a 1990s CD of DSOTM and sounds absolutely fine so I suspect the silly prices for vinyl are bumped up by sheer mysticism about their sound quality. Just because people have the money to buy these things doesn't mean they have any clue about what they are buying.
Plus just being transferred to vinyl from tape buggers up the sound enormously. Now if you could get your hands on an early generation master tape, that might really be worth the money.
Back in the "Tape era" before the Big "D" how did they reproduce so many albums from the original master tapes? Were there many copies which they then made stampers from and then produced lots of stampers?
There must be some copies of the original Master Tape around but these are probably in a fragile condition?
Back in the "Tape era" before the Big "D" how did they reproduce so many albums from the original master tapes? Were there many copies which they then made stampers from and then produced lots of stampers?
There must be some copies of the original Master Tape around but these are probably in a fragile condition?
There's a studio master from which they make a production master, then they make copies of the production master and use those to make the stampers.
But then they will copy the copies if it's a big selling album. So there could be dozens or even hundreds of master tapes for any given album.
Depending on the tape used these will deteriorate to various degrees with age. I note that despite the high price of re-issues they don't ever seem to declare the progeny of them. Possibly because they don't know or possibly because they used an archived digital copy of a master taken years ago (hello Mofi) and don't want the punters to know -although in terms of sound quality this will often be the best option available.
I got a few represses that I was able to replace with first pressings (bought used). In most cases I must admit the first pressing does sound noticeably superior. Although could be other reasons for that besides what generation of master tape was used.
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