View Full Version : Jimbos Audio ramblings
Roger Nichols on the 3M: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nichols_(recording_engineer)
''3M Digital Mastering System:
The Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop album was the first digitally recorded pop album. It was recorded on the 3M 32-track digital recorder at Amigo studios in North Hollywood California. We booked the Village Recorder in 1981 to cut tracks for Nightfly and decided to try the 3M digital machine.
We ran a Studer A-80 24-track analog machine in parallel with the 3M for the test. After the band laid down a take we performed an a-b-c listening test. The analog and digital machines were played back in sync while the band played along live. We could compare the analog machine, the digital machine, and the live band.
The closest sound to the live band was the 3M digital machine. We re-aligned the Studer and gave it one more chance. The 3M was the clear winner. We rolled the Studer out into the street, (just kidding) and did the rest of the recording on the 3M 32-track machine. When it came time to mix, we mixed to the 3M 4-track machine.
The 3M 32-track used 1” digital tape and the 4-track used 1/2” digital tape. They both ran at 45 ips. I guess 3M wanted to sell you lots of tape. The digital audio was recorded at 50kHz 16bits. There were no 16bit converters in 1981, so the 3M system used a 12 bit Burr-Brown converter and 4bits of an 8bit converter as gain-ranging to produce the 16bit results.
The “brick wall” analog filters on the 3M machine hand-wound coils and took up most of a circuit board. They sounded good.
The biggest drawback to the 3M system was the minimal error correction. After a couple of months working on the same piece of tape, the error count started to rise above the correctable level. There were adjustments on the front of the machine to fine tune the decoding of the data recorded on tape.
You could adjust each track for the least amount of correctable errors and then transfer the tape digitally to another 3M machine. You now had a clean error-free tape to work on for a couple of months.''
https://web.archive.org/web/20021020102042/http://rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2001_08.html
But the point is there is something 'wrong' with the recording. That is true: exactly why is another matter.
But the point is there is something 'wrong' with the recording. That is true: exactly why is another matter.
I'm going to have to get a copy of this I suppose.
sure there is an 180gm version vinyl; dunno if it was remastered or not or if its different. a lot of folk seem to like original one anyway so who knows..
sure there is an 180gm version vinyl; dunno if it was remastered or not or if its different. a lot of folk seem to like original one anyway so who knows..
looks like there is only one remaster - Japanese release 2007
All others are the original including the 180 gm vinyl
https://www.discogs.com/master/65222-Ry-Cooder-Bop-Till-You-Drop
loads of the original around cheap on Discogs - yep £5 on discogs take your pick - 1382 copies available!
If you're not a fan of Ry Cooder then I would trouble.
I would however be interested to know what was the first vinyl release recorded using digital techniques.
In the twilight hours.......
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53399149778_232deedf5b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pmGAQb)A48F3CD0-74A3-48F3-8EB8-F1D7275D0E1A (https://flic.kr/p/2pmGAQb) by , on Flickr
Strange thing room acoustics, just when you think you know what you are doing and you think you have got the best out of your room something happens and you question what you know and what you have been recommended. Through trial and error and work with the acoustic panels I have improved the sound of my system marginally but getting your system to play nicely with your acoustic space ( room ) is not an exact science and tonight I have surprised myself yet again.
As it is closely approaching Christmas I have had to reconfigure my furniture placement and the room in general to accommodate the obligatory Christmas tree. This year we decided to buy a real one - ah that must be it I thought, real trees have a different acoustic signature to artificial - just kidding. No what happened was this. I moved my listening position two feet backwards and moved another sofa further in front between my speakers and bang the balance of my system changed unexpectedly for the better.
I know furniture can have a big difference but this was a surprise because if you were sitting where I am now you would say it shouldn't work but then I remembered Bass is omnidirectional and therefore not as critical as treble and midrange for positioning. Case in point many folk put subwoofers in very unusual places and they work.
So with the room furniture repositioned a few feet back and forward depending on its previous position I have now gained a very significant improvement and may well keep the room the same as a consequence. What I am talking about is a better general balance of sound across the audio spectrum and better sense of space and depth/positioning/imaging in the recording. In fact on a few tracks the whole ambience of the sound stage sounded way better than before.
So for a free upgrade all I did was move a few bits of furniture! Amazing how influential room acoustics etc can be on what you hear. And as I have said before considerably more effective than many upgrades I have made with electronics or cables.
Wakefield Turntables
17-12-2023, 20:04
Well done Jim! I'm still at "bodger" level when it comes to room treatment. I have a thick rug sitting in front of my ported Tannoy 15" MG cabinets and two large accoustic panels sitting directly opposite the main driver in the Tannoy cabinets. I also have two very very rough corner traps. I've not moved things around, as I can't! I don't have the space. Any new accoustic treatment would probably be on the ceiling, behind the speakers or maybe more side panels. Things sound very good already but I suppose things could always sound better. ;)
Well done Jim! I'm still at "bodger" level when it comes to room treatment. I have a thick rug sitting in front of my ported Tannoy 15" MG cabinets and two large accoustic panels sitting directly opposite the main driver in the Tannoy cabinets. I also have two very very rough corner traps. I've not moved things around, as I can't! I don't have the space. Any new accoustic treatment would probably be on the ceiling, behind the speakers or maybe more side panels. Things sound very good already but I suppose things could always sound better. ;)
I am always surprised how much improvement there is to be had still with room acoustics.
I am still trying to figure out what happened when I changed the layout of my room recently and its subsequent effect of SQ. I know room acoustics and how your own gear interacts with your room is a very complex subject and indeed many folk have tried to apply measurements and a technical approach to understand what is going on.
Room EQ wizard is the favoured software used by many "measurement" guys out there and indeed I have a mate who uses it to understand his room acoustics but analysing frequency response and subsequent room nodes in regarding to speaker positioning will only get you so far. Yes it will tell you about problem areas at different frequencies ie "Bass humps" etc but what it does not tell you is real life listener experience and impressions. This is where a technical approach runs out of steam in my book. There is nothing like trial and error evaluation done with your own ears that will give you a more accurate understanding of your own system and the sound you are looking for in your own room.
Hence I have gone down the theoretical route a little and implemented some recommended treatments / room / speaker set ups but I have found using my own ears as a tool for telling me what sounds right and what I like is far more effective. This is where it gets tricky as sometimes you don't know how good your system can sound until you try as many combinations of set ups as possible. This can be time consuming and frustrating and with my speakers that why 30+ kilos each, it can be back breaking.
So the other night I left the speakers where they were and moved the other large items in the room instead!:doh:
My initial analysis I posted Sunday but since then I have tried to get my head round what has and is happening which is probably far more complex than I could ever image. Every frequency and its interaction with everything else in the room and the room itself must indeed be unbelievably difficult to map. Move an ornament on the mantelpiece and the sound changes??? - just kidding.:)
However trying to rationalise the implications for the sound difference I am getting is difficult but I will have a go.
My impression is that each frequency carries a certain amount of information the we are uniquely susceptible to and which lights up our brain/hearing. I think this differs for each person and so what sounds great or engaging for one person is different to another hence we all have different gear and different set ups. But I also think what we look for in sound is different. Some folk are turned on by Bass some are turned on by HF detail and so forth.
I know from years of listening my aural perception is turned on by the midrange information and so I have chosen equipment that plays best in this area, after all the human voice operates mainly in this spectrum and this is how our hearing evolved in the first place.
So going back to what I heard. I think the information carried in the midband of frequencies was effected most. I did not hear any more detail as such but what I heard was like opening out a concertina. Everything was there before but now it had room to expand and develop more fully so vocals became more dimensional and the tonal quality of everything in the mix became richer. In short the expansion of the sound opened up the recording. The flatter dimensionality I heard before became more 3D and expansive. This also benefitted the whole soundstage which became more open and as I have mentioned allowed for greater ambience in the room.
To put this very simply it was like I had taken my system out of a smaller room and put it into a larger one!
So whatever I had done to the room acoustics / my listening position / aural perception etc had all changed. As I said to try and unravel all this with measurement and technicalities would probably be very difficult but it is very easy from the end user point of view to hear the effect, at least it was too me.
I got a UMIK-1 measurement mic the other day, intending to see if I can use it over the holidays along with the REW software to find out what is happening in my room.
I don't have any issues with the sound but I got in an argument with some youths who insisted that unless you're using DRC below the Schroeder frequency you can't possibly get a good sound and you will have 15db peaks in the bass.
Okay now when we were starting out a computer with 128K of RAM was a big deal so we had to learn how to treat a room and choose suitable speakers, these kids don't have to do that, they just twiddle a few knobs and hey presto
So my intention is to prove them wrong by showing I get good measured response without all that tech, just using the old skills and experience :)
Ofc I could be wrong and it will measure terribly - but it doesn't sound like it does.
Anyway you're welcome to have a borrow of the mic when I'm done.
I got a UMIK-1 measurement mic the other day, intending to see if I can use it over the holidays along with the REW software to find out what is happening in my room.
I don't have any issues with the sound but I got in an argument with some youths who insisted that unless you're using DRC below the Schroeder frequency you can't possibly get a good sound and you will have 15db peaks in the bass.
Okay now when we were starting out a computer with 128K of RAM was a big deal so we had to learn how to treat a room and choose suitable speakers, these kids don't have to do that, they just twiddle a few knobs and hey presto
So my intention is to prove them wrong by showing I get good measured response without all that tech, just using the old skills and experience :)
Ofc I could be wrong and it will measure terribly - but it doesn't sound like it does.
Anyway you're welcome to have a borrow of the mic when I'm done.
That sounds like an interesting Christmas project regardless and may either confirm you have you system set up well or maybe not �� Thanks for the offer to borrow the microphone. I have RW downloaded already from a previous investigation by my mate but I would like another play myself with a mic.
A little more fine tuning with the new room layout and a big surprise. I was listening to a live radio 3 broadcast and decided to just adjust the speaker toe in a little and it turned out to have a more significant impact on the sound than I imagined.
Speaker toe in from my experience is very much dependent on the speaker design with some speakers requiring negligible amount where as others require a fair bit of toe in. I was not sure what my Heco GT 702 speakers were designed to achieve regarding toe in positioning but tonight I found out. Now I must quantify this might be room dependent but I found they definitely sounded way better with minimum toe in. In this position not only was the soundstage and imaging great, the tonal quality was also a lot better. Again something is going on here with the speaker / room interaction.
Tonal quality and layering of the soundstage had already improved with the new room /furniture layout but with this final fine tune everything became that bit sharper into focus. Very obvious when I messed around going back and forth between lots of toe in and almost none. I had always presumed this was a minor function of speaker set up but surprisingly not in my case. Yes its a bit of pain going back and forth toeing in and out but it was certainly very significant and had a much greater impact than I would have imagined.
I will probably have more thoughts on what is going on here when I reflect and process what is happening.
Good result James, nice one.
Played with toe-in with my own setup a couple of Sundays ago James, had similar results.
My speakers have an AMT tweeter/soft dome midrange setup, and can be quite ‘beamy’ in that moving off axis can noticable affect the top end?
Playing with toe-in, like yourself something I hadn’t really looked into, and sound is better in my listening seat.
just dialled in speaker positioning in my room better I guess.
worth spending the time to do definitely.
Good result James, nice one.
Played with toe-in with my own setup a couple of Sundays ago James, had similar results.
My speakers have an AMT tweeter/soft dome midrange setup, and can be quite ‘beamy’ in that moving off axis can noticable affect the top end?
Playing with toe-in, like yourself something I hadn’t really looked into, and sound is better in my listening seat.
just dialled in speaker positioning in my room better I guess.
worth spending the time to do definitely.
Good to know I am not the only one who has experimented with toe- in Gary. I have done this before in the past but never focussed on it until the other night where I found the new room configurations affected the sound set up considerably.
I have soft dome tweeters which are also a tad beamy so I think we have probably had similar issues.
My speakers are now set up with very little toe-in. Is this where you ended up?
walpurgis
23-12-2023, 12:24
Half a lifetime of living with Tannoy dual concentrics taught me to listen virtually on axis to each speaker. I no longer have Tannoys, but still feel most comfortable with speakers toed in this way.
Half a lifetime of living with Tannoy dual concentrics taught me to listen virtually on axis to each speaker. I no longer have Tannoys, but still feel most comfortable with speakers toed in this way.
Never had Tannoys Geoff but heard them at a few shows, always wondered what the best set up was for them.
Good to know I am not the only one who has experimented with toe- in Gary. I have done this before in the past but never focussed on it until the other night where I found the new room configurations affected the sound set up considerably.
I have soft dome tweeters which are also a tad beamy so I think we have probably had similar issues.
My speakers are now set up with very little toe-in. Is this where you ended up?
My speakers, my room?
Quite a difference from before actually, speakers were pretty much parallel to the back wall before, after some back and forth now pointed in a fair bit more.
Speaker cable change soon, so moving the speakers again a possibility, but for now sounding great.
Pointed inwards a fair bit, I'd say at a point behind my head when I'm at the sweet spot.
Never paid attention to this stuff before, definitely an improvement.
brian2957
24-12-2023, 22:15
Merry Christmas guys, hope santa brings you some room measurement gear ;)
No need - I already have a good pair of ears.
But Merry Christmas nonetheless. :)
Merry Christmas to you all.:santa:
Good to know I am not the only one who has experimented with toe- in Gary. I have done this before in the past but never focussed on it until the other night where I found the new room configurations affected the sound set up considerably.
I have soft dome tweeters which are also a tad beamy so I think we have probably had similar issues.
My speakers are now set up with very little toe-in. Is this where you ended up?
Actually,
that’s where my speakers started off!
Realised I was losing some treble definition and imaging with the midrange dome and AMT tweeter pretty much parallel with the back wall.
Lived with that since I first installed the speakers, never gave it a thought.
It was when I did the old trick of cupping my hands around my ears, (more directly focussing the sound) I heard improved treble and sound staging.
Put that down to the narrowness of focus of the AMT tweeter and midrange dome of the speakers?
Playing with toe-in, pointing the speakers at a point just behind my head made the sound snap into life.
Theres a trade off though, too much toe-in and I lost soundstage depth, so the trick was to find the sweet spot.
Possible speaker cable change coming, will revisit dialling in the speakers then, but very happy with the music just from angling in the speakers a bit.
https://i.imgur.com/MUviGIr_d.webp?maxwidth=1520&fidelity=grand
Actually,
that’s where my speakers started off!
Realised I was losing some treble definition and imaging with the midrange dome and AMT tweeter pretty much parallel with the back wall.
Lived with that since I first installed the speakers, never gave it a thought.
It was when I did the old trick of cupping my hands around my ears, (more directly focussing the sound) I heard improved treble and sound staging.
Put that down to the narrowness of focus of the AMT tweeter and midrange dome of the speakers?
Playing with toe-in, pointing the speakers at a point just behind my head made the sound snap into life.
Theres a trade off though, too much toe-in and I lost soundstage depth, so the trick was to find the sweet spot.
Possible speaker cable change coming, will revisit dialling in the speakers then, but very happy with the music just from angling in the speakers a bit.
https://i.imgur.com/MUviGIr_d.webp?maxwidth=1520&fidelity=grand
Great to get your experiences with toe-in . I will post picture of the angle mine ended up at later.
Speakers now at very shallow angle.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53421178397_04f2fc033b_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2poDvaX)1A5F45E3-8241-4E59-8910-678FF463A4BD (https://flic.kr/p/2poDvaX) by , on Flickr
After last few nights toe -in shenanigans I had a good think about what was going on regarding speaker placement and toe-in and I have now come to a few conclusions which may or may not be correct but I like to try and analyse what and how something happens.
I know that a speakers response to toe in is mainly determined with tweeter positioning and high frequencies. Some speakers have a wide dispersion tweeter where as others are more focussed and need to be in line with the listeners ear to produce their best in terms of detail and stereo imaging. This accounts for why some speakers don’t need much if any toe in and others require more. Bass and midrange are also affected but not too the same degree as the treble regarding acoustic information.
Tweeters HF information is affected by reflection, dispersion and direct sound. This subsequently means the information produced by a tweeter is received by the ear from a multitude of directions. So just moving the speaker a little will effect what you hear significantly depending on what is being reflected and what is hitting your ear directly. The materials the HF hits will also change the speed and nature of the sound hitting your ear.
Out of all this reflected, dispersed and direct frequency chaos you are then presented with critical sound clues in regards imaging and detail and from this you build a sonic picture of what you are listening to. But part of this information wanders into more subtle areas such as tonal quality and shading and soundstage ambience and positioning of vocalists and instruments.
What I believe was happening as I toe in and out my speakers was very much like a camera focussing in on a subject where you had choices of what you focussed on and to a minor extend what became Bokeh? Smearing of certain frequencies brought about different results. Either a more detailed but narrower picture and less tonal quality or where I finished last night with wide, deep transparent soundstage and lovely tonal quality and layering and not least great imaging and detail.
All of this I think is fairly haphazard as it would be very difficult to remove everything from your room and then bring piece by piece back in and evaluate its effect on the sound as you did it. You have to make the best of what you have in terms of your room / acoustic environment and try and fit all of the pieces of the puzzle together to get the best sound.
Moving an ornament on the mantelpiece could make a difference!:)
Analysing the frequency range and its effects in a room will tell you what those frequencies are hitting the microphone and what is being accentuated or lost but I don’t believe this is good enough to replicate what your own hearing perceives from the position you sit in.
Does RW tell you about tonal shading, acoustic ambience, imaging and so forth. NO. It tells you about bass frequency response, room nodes and general FR. Your ears will tell you if it sounds right.:)
REW is really only useful for seeing what is going on in the low frequencies it won't give you much clue as to the rest.
Wakefield Turntables
26-12-2023, 20:43
I suppose using REW is useful for some things but I'm afraid I agree with Jim. I'm happy just to bodge along (not that Jim does), it actually makes the hobby fun and I've learned never to trust measurements anyway. I'm afraid it's whatever sounds best to my ears "is best", irrespective of measurements.
I find them useful for avoiding paying over the odds for stuff.
And for choosing loudspeakers - although the final judgement is listening.
The only trouble with using measurements to evaluate your room and subsequently position your speakers is that you may find them in the middle of the room which maybe ideal for sound quality but impractical for domestic living!
Compromises always have to be made and this is where the fun starts although a little room treatment can go a long way to addressing problems and allow you to position speakers where you would like them.
AJSki2fly
26-12-2023, 22:54
The only trouble with using measurements to evaluate your room and subsequently position your speakers is that you may find them in the middle of the room which maybe ideal for sound quality but impractical for domestic living!
Compromises always have to be made and this is where the fun starts although a little room treatment can go a long way to addressing problems and allow you to position speakers where you would like them.
In general I have found if you use rule of 1/3rds for speaker position or as close as possible or have front face at least 1.2m out from the rear wall(if you can1.5m) and try and keep centre of speakers at least 60cm from side walls. Then sit in a triangle position no more than 1.2 times how far the speakers are apart, then listen to and tweak toe in until you hit the sweet spot.
The above can be challenging in a lounge and with limited space so compromise is often needed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I found this video quite useful.
https://youtu.be/CyTkwkK8ON0?si=62TKRwygUI9dMVkx
Now Christmas has gone a little bit quiet I had chance to get back to the vinyl again last night and assess further the speaker / room set up again using some well known tracks.
Just to recap for anyone who is interested, I left my speakers in their original position which was 90cm (3 feet)from front wall to speaker front baffle and 75cm(2.4 feet) from side wall to tweeter. Speakers were 2.10m (6.8 feet) apart and listening position is now 3m(9.8 feet) from speakers. Toe-in is very shallow angle. Listening position was previously 2.6m (8.5 feet)
Room dimensions are 6.5m(21.4 feet) x 3.6m.( 12 feet) So listening position is approx I/3 into the room with rear wall 2m( 6.5 feet) behind listening position.
I had to take a couple of minutes to consider the new listening experience having had a few days away but once again the improvement was there. Trying to analyse in words what you hear is always difficult especially when we are talking about sound but I will have another go.
Apart from all the observations I made in my previous post and I won't repeat them, I now found other subtle aspects to the sound that were truly amazing. I have mentioned that the soundstage and everything within had become deeper but not just in one direction, it had in fact stretched out towards me too so I was listening to a much more 3D type of soundstage. I would imagine this would be similar to using a VR headset to watch a film rather than simply watching in 2D. I use this analogy as it simply the best way I could describe the soundstage overall. However there were other aspects in the sound which were also fascinating.
Listening to Agnes Obel Philharmonics album was revelatory. I know this album intimately and some of the improvements I heard were stunning. Not only could I heard very clearly what she was singing ie the words but also her voice was fuller and even more ethereal. Her construction of her recording playing the piano and her voice are quite something. She is obsessed with sound herself so I know she labours over getting the sound of everything perfect. Her vocals almost take on an outer body experience and this became even more pronounced with the vocals stretching far right through the wall and completely free of the speakers. Her piano became even more vivid and the harmonics of each key and the weight of each note was more definite. The whole recording seemed to have more body, more flesh and blood.
Again I have tried to work out why this improvement has happened since adjusting toe-in and moving listening position further back and all I can come up with is that the whole frequency range from the speakers is now being reconstructed much more accurately without too much negative room interaction.
What I had uncovered by accident was the Sweet Spot for my speaker/room set up.:)
I wish you would give dimensions in feet and inches - I have to translate to be able to visualise!
I wish you would give dimensions in feet and inches - I have to translate to be able to visualise!
I forgot most of us are from the prehistoric world I will pop the translation to feet and inches onto my post.:lol:
I wish you would give dimensions in feet and inches - I have to translate to be able to visualise!
Ah… an Imperialist.
down with that sort of ‘ting!
I forgot most of us are from the prehistoric world I will pop the translation to feet and inches onto my post.:lol:
Thanks!
I wish you would give dimensions in feet and inches - I have to translate to be able to visualise!
im same. was educated in imperial and although i worked in metric a lot i always had to convert so i could see it in my mind and was happy that the size wasnt an error
Your both right I actually still think in feet and inches as it does let me visualise things better.
From now on I will only use Imperial on this site!:lol:
I prefer reading the American reviews of speakers because they give the driver sizes in inches unlike here where that insist on only giving driver size in metric even though in real life no-one here of any age uses metric for cone size.
'It's an 11.5 centimetre cone' - It's what now mate? Try again.
Pretty poor when the Yanks can get it right but we can't.
Your both right I actually still think in feet and inches as it does let me visualise things better.
From now on I will only use Imperial on this site!:lol:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would be proud of you. :rolleyes:
Jacob Rees-Mogg would be proud of you. :rolleyes:
:doh:
Should be metric for science and imperial for everyday use. Just makes more sense. All ages use imperial for that.
Ask a teenager how tall they are I bet they don't give the answer in metric. Or for weight. They won't give you speeds or distances in Km either.
Now we're out the EU there's no excuse for sticking with it.
We weren't obliged to use metric measures when we were in the EU.
We weren't obliged to use metric measures when we were in the EU.
I know. It was encouraged though.
Lawrence001
31-12-2023, 01:24
Should be metric for science and imperial for everyday use. Just makes more sense. All ages use imperial for that.
Ask a teenager how tall they are I bet they don't give the answer in metric. Or for weight. They won't give you speeds or distances in Km either.
Now we're out the EU there's no excuse for sticking with it.Hear hear!
I know. It was encouraged though.
Some people just want to go back to the Dark Ages.
But you buy petrol in litres, and work out fuel economy in MPG :scratch:
But you buy petrol in litres, and work out fuel economy in MPG :scratch:
Do the French do that?
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 08:51
I mostly use metric when working, I find it easier to work with whole numbers. eg 630mm + 415mm, whereas calculating in imperial with the attendant fractions (eg 14 and 3/8 + 7 and 1/4) a pain.
But for most other things imperial for me.
Trip meter on the bike is odd, fuel consumption is in miles/litre. That does my head in.
Metric does have other handy properties though for calculating - one litre of water = one kg, and a cubic metre of water = one metric tonne. Again makes calculations easier, though of course not everyone wants a cubic metre of water - if for example you want a floor in your garage, concrete is better :)
I worked with manufacturing food products and we certainly did not use imperial measurements in the factory or when I was developing products. Product information was converted afterwards sometimes into both metric and imperial or public use.
I think schools nowadays mainly use metric units as do the science and industrial/ manufacturing industries.
Do the French do that?
No, they use Litres/100km
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 09:54
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/01/news/mn-17288
I worked with manufacturing food products and we certainly did not use imperial measurements in the factory or when I was developing products. Product information was converted afterwards sometimes into both metric and imperial or public use.
I think schools nowadays mainly use metric units as do the science and industrial/ manufacturing industries.
this is why I said metric for science and imperial for everyday. Production processes would count as 'science'.
Schools have not taught imperial measurements for decades but youngsters still use them in everyday situations.
I still use imperial units at work. Most fasteners we use are imperial, but with metric equivalence tables in all reference documents.
Switching between the two is relatively easy.
However, when I do DIY with the family, I have to be careful which tape measure I give them, as a combined metric/imperial version confuses them.
To get back to Hi-fi - UK magazines and sites quoting loudspeaker cab size and driver size only in metric is them being wilfully obtuse.
I think this is a partly political, and partly 'I'm a science person so I use metric even when it's totally inappropriate and fuck you.'
If this wasn't so they would give the measurements in both systems.
What's extra laughable is that the review wlll likely be full of absurd poetic rambling and no science at all.
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 10:23
I think the manufacturers only include imperial measurements as a courtesy to the US, Myanmar and Liberia, the only three countries left who can't or won't understand metric.
Imv the only reason America isn't using metric is because it wasn't their idea.
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 10:26
And to get an idea of the mindset of the average American, forget the science programmes on Discovery, and watch Jerry Springer instead :sofa: The exception being our American AoS members of course :)
.
Imv the only reason America isn't using metric is because it wasn't their idea.
this video explains why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 10:50
:lol: Funny because it's true.
Many years ago the US seriously considered going metric. They abandoned the idea because it would have been too expensive to implement.
Many years ago the US seriously considered going metric. They abandoned the idea because it would have been too expensive to implement.
And massively unpopular.
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 13:18
Many years ago the US seriously considered going metric. They abandoned the idea because it would have been too expensive to implement.
Think it was Jimmy Carter. Early 70s I'd say.
Pigmy Pony
31-12-2023, 13:20
It wouldn't have cost much to go metric with petrol. They don't do proper gallons anyway.
I have just been reading an article about Dolby Atmos, Sony 360 reality audio and Apple spatial audio and interestingly there was a nugget of information how the technology works and how I think this may apply to what I am experiencing with my room / speaker and listening position evaluation.
Apparently the spatial audio works by adjusting the audio frequencies so each ear experiences variation in the position of the sound. This can pinpoint sounds and precise placement of audio effects in a 360 degrees arrangement. This got me thinking that in effect what I am doing with speaker toe-in, acoustic treatment, speaker position and seating position is to basically alter the frequencies I receive by moving various aspects of the sound. Obviously this alters the timing those frequencies hit my ear but also affect the actual frequency that reaches me.
Messing about with the frequencies results in me hearing a different perspective of the sound and therefore everything contained in it. Spatial awareness ie soundstage ambience and imaging are therefore manipulated to sound quite different as is the information that is contained in the frequency hitting my ear. It is a complex thing as every part of the sound is generated not only by the speaker and its position but also by everything else it interacts with in the room and ultimately where you are sitting. Now I know some of this may sound obvious but its implications are big as quite radical changes can be made to what and how you hear your system just by moving things around and applying room treatment, soft furnishings or simply moving your listening position as this determines the position of the frequencies hitting you ear.
But the trick is to get all those parts that influence the sound to work in the best way to achieve or get the best out of your system. I am still surprised as to the degree of change I have achieved over the last week or so and it has meant running through a long list of recordings I know well in order to discover what these effects have done to the recording. In many cases information in the recordings especially ambience around performers and instruments has been revealed to a much greater degree and tonal frequencies have become more complex and much richer.
I am genuinely excited by this as it has allowed me to upgrade my system at no extra cost. What I don't know however is if this is very specific to the room and equipment I have or if I insert another piece of equipment it would mean starting all over again?
That's my problem having a hard core of about 3 or 4 amps and several others if I could be arsed and a few Dacs I could swap in an out of if I wanted to, ensuring free entry to the local asylum:eek:
Pigmy Pony
03-01-2024, 10:30
I have a theory James.
The way we hear music is dependant on three things: The quality of the audio equipment at one end, the space between the equipment and our ears, and the part of our brain that processes the sounds that reach our ears. Perhaps the processor in your brain is of "dolby atmos" quality, as opposed to mine which is probably 70s Amstrad quality. The importance of the part this processor plays cannot be understated, it affects the way we perceive and enjoy music more than any other part of the audio chain.
And so you're able to pick up on the tiny nuances of sound, which can be affected by altering the timing of direct and reflected sounds as they reach your ears, enabling you to perceive differing 'acoustics'.
This has nothing to do with how good our hearing is, but rather to do with how our brains interpret what reaches them. And so a visitor may not hear what you hear. Just means you're more sensitive to those changes.
How's that for audio rambling? Reading it back I think perhaps much of what I said is cack, but it took so long to type with two fingers I'm going to post it anyway :)
I have a theory James.
The way we hear music is dependant on three things: The quality of the audio equipment at one end, the space between the equipment and our ears, and the part of our brain that processes the sounds that reach our ears. Perhaps the processor in your brain is of "dolby atmos" quality, as opposed to mine which is probably 70s Amstrad quality. The importance of the part this processor plays cannot be understated, it affects the way we perceive and enjoy music more than any other part of the audio chain.
And so you're able to pick up on the tiny nuances of sound, which can be affected by altering the timing of direct and reflected sounds as they reach your ears, enabling you to perceive differing 'acoustics'.
This has nothing to do with how good our hearing is, but rather to do with how our brains interpret what reaches them. And so a visitor may not hear what you hear. Just means you're more sensitive to those changes.
How's that for audio rambling? Reading it back I think perhaps much of what I said is cack, but it took so long to type with two fingers I'm going to post it anyway :)
No Steve, every opinion is a valid one as you have identified we all reconstruct sound in our brains differently and therefore you are absolutely correct. I am sure if someone else where to listen to my system they would have a completely different experience to me and there is the truth. All we hear and all the gear we use is specific to ourselves and what we enjoy so there are never any right or wrongs just individual choice based on individual listening preferences. Hence that's why we all have different gear and like different music. Ok sometimes paths will cross and we end up with some stuff the same but I bet no two audiofools have exactly the same system.
But there again no two audio fools will ever have exactly the same room with the same furnishings and the same system. The chances are very remote!
I like to just ramble on on my experiences and hope they may get some folk to either try something with their room /system they may have not done before or just contemplate what is happening and put some thought process to how and what we hear based on the equipment we listen to and the room /set up we have.
Personally my main objective is just to try and get my thoughts down in some sort of coherent order before they vanish and I become a jibbering old fool....but maybe that is what I am already?:)
Pigmy Pony
03-01-2024, 12:36
No Steve, every opinion is a valid one as you have identified we all reconstruct sound in our brains differently and therefore you are absolutely correct. I am sure if someone else where to listen to my system they would have a completely different experience to me and there is the truth. All we hear and all the gear we use is specific to ourselves and what we enjoy so there are never any right or wrongs just individual choice based on individual listening preferences. Hence that's why we all have different gear and like different music. Ok sometimes paths will cross and we end up with some stuff the same but I bet no two audiofools have exactly the same system.
But there again no two audio fools will ever have exactly the same room with the same furnishings and the same system. The chances are very remote!
I like to just ramble on on my experiences and hope they may get some folk to either try something with their room /system they may have not done before or just contemplate what is happening and put some thought process to how and what we hear based on the equipment we listen to and the room /set up we have.
Personally my main objective is just to try and get my thoughts down in some sort of coherent order before they vanish and I become a jibbering old fool....but maybe that is what I am already?:)
Good idea to document all the changes to your system/room and how they did or didn't improve things, so that you may refer to it if you need to "go back" with some aspect.
Especially if your memory is as poor as mine - I've forgotten more than I'll ever know :)
AJSki2fly
03-01-2024, 12:39
I have a theory James.
The way we hear music is dependant on three things: The quality of the audio equipment at one end, the space between the equipment and our ears, and the part of our brain that processes the sounds that reach our ears. Perhaps the processor in your brain is of "dolby atmos" quality, as opposed to mine which is probably 70s Amstrad quality. The importance of the part this processor plays cannot be understated, it affects the way we perceive and enjoy music more than any other part of the audio chain.
And so you're able to pick up on the tiny nuances of sound, which can be affected by altering the timing of direct and reflected sounds as they reach your ears, enabling you to perceive differing 'acoustics'.
This has nothing to do with how good our hearing is, but rather to do with how our brains interpret what reaches them. And so a visitor may not hear what you hear. Just means you're more sensitive to those changes.
How's that for audio rambling? Reading it back I think perhaps much of what I said is cack, but it took so long to type with two fingers I'm going to post it anyway :)
A very valid point Steve, we are after all different but very similar at the same time.
Our brains as you say are all wired differently and probably experience music differently based on a vast number number of criteria. However in my musical experience when I used to play(try) guitar in several amateur bands, playing pop/rock, rock and jazz I did discover several interesting things. Firstly certain aspects of music can be learnt and improvement can result in a better appreciation or felling of what you are listening to, one very important aspect is tempo. My ability to keep time and recognise signature times (4/4, 3/4, 5/4. 6/8 etc) initially was appalling but with training and playing music with others this became easier and more natural. Of course one critical aspect is tuning or perception of it, I believe it has been said that one man's middle C is not another, I personally believe that is plain rubbish, middle C is 278.4375 Hz (if the instrument is correctly tuned. Once again I thought I had a good ear when it came to recognising when an instrument was in or out of tune, well the answer was yes and no, originally I could hear when my guitar was in tune but if another in the bad was out of tune to mine who was right and who was wrong. this can cause all sorts of issues when band member tune their instruments to another which is intrinsically our of tune. I won't go into the maths of music but tuning to a high or low frequency instrument like a bass or alto sax is fraught with issues, the band may very well sound in tune with each other but can sound odd when listened to as a whole. With time and lots of playing with others I became more adapt at tuning my own instrument and recognising when others were wrong.
So what is the point of my ramble, over about 6 years my brain became more able to hear different tempos and rhythms, and scale, and I was better able to hear a tune and how the notes/chords related to each through improvisation, basically my musical appreciation improved. My wife is a very good example of a person who says she does not appreciate music or my system, how often have we heard that? She says she cannot hear any difference musically between my system or say our Apple Home Pod, but if I put the same piece of much on both she can hear the audible difference an SQ. She says she is tone deaf, which is rubbish as she knows when she is off pitch when she attempts to sing, and says her singing is awful. Her issue with singing is she was not taught as a child how to sing the basic Do Ra Me Fa So La Ti Do scale in any key and control her voice box to do so. We all can do so with different levels of success, this is a basic starting point musically for an individual to be able to appreciate what it is hearing musically, the brain needs a term of reference to make sense of musical structure.
Ultimately I think this may be why one person can hear subtle differences in one system to another and another will not.
Perhaps the processor in your brain is of "dolby atmos" quality, as opposed to mine which is probably 70s Amstrad quality.
If your brain was 1970s Amstrad it would have already have failed - probably catastrophically - by about June 1980.
Pigmy Pony
03-01-2024, 18:42
If your brain was 1970s Amstrad it would have already have failed - probably catastrophically - by about June 1980.
It did. Thank God Dr Steepletone was on shift that day :)
I have opened a can of worms when I thought TT oil would be a fairly straight forward simple job but as in all things hifi this appears not to be the case. I must admit it is something I have rarely done - probably only once with my VPI although I have done some cleaning and restoration on a Lenco GL75 bearing and spindle. But TT bearing oil seems to be another strangely bizarre aspect of performance I took for granted and thought it was not that important. I must confess I am not an expert on all areas of hifi and learn by trial and error and lots of research. However my investigation into TT bearing oil was brief and half hearted. I simply took for granted that a motor oil could be used as recommended by the TT manufacturer although I used a 30W rather than 40W.
This has had implications and challenged my knowledge and thinking. TT oil is as I am beginning to realise is another influence on sound. Now that I have looked into it further I have opened pandoras box! The possibilities maybe endless as I do have a wide range of oils I could experiment with. I would have left well alone if I had not experienced a negative aspect to my listening last night which can only be accounted for by the changes I made to the oil. I did not want to really believe it could be so but after hearing some issues I went away and researched a little and that is when I realised some of what I experienced could indeed be attributed to the change of oil!:doh:
I have found that bearing oil can lower the noise floor and therefore allow a greater audible dynamic range. Surface noise on the record can also reduce allow for greater detail to be observed. This chimes exactly with what I heard last night but as in all things hifi it was not a massive night and day difference. During Christmas I had experienced a big uplift in the SQ from my system due to some of the changes I had made to speaker toe-in and listening position. These were not so apparent after I had changed the TT oil!
As I mentioned on my "Turntable Lube" post I had lost some air and ambient information which was also critical to the impressions I was getting from the soundstage which had been significantly enhanced due to messing with listening room. There were certain vocals that had previously had great ambience and space around them and indeed greater presence in the room. These were knocked back by the change of oil! At first I did not want to believe or acknowledge it but as I have now listened more there has definitely been a negative effect.
Also the soundstage has shrunk and become flatter and there is less openness to the sound. These are subtle cues in the listening experience and were not apparent when I first changed the oil but as I went through more well known material they became obvious. So I have decided to go through the whole oil replacement procedure again and this time return to some Audio Origami bearing oil which indeed I had used before. But I may go off piste and try something else in the meantime and do a little experimentation as I have a hunch something else may work!:scratch:
brian2957
08-01-2024, 16:24
Interesting post James. I bought a used Planar 3 as a Christmas present to myself recently and wasn't sure when the bearing was last serviced. Firstly, I tried some Audio Origami oil, however, I thought the sound was a bit thin and weedy. I then used some gear oil and have been happy with the SQ. I know every turntable/bearing is different but I look forward to your findings here.
Interesting post James. I bought a used Planar 3 as a Christmas present to myself recently and wasn't sure when the bearing was last services. Firstly, I tried some Audio Origami oil, however, I thought the sound was a bit thin and weedy. I then used some gear oil and have been happy with the SQ. I know every turntable/bearing is different but I look forward to your findings here.
Thanks Brian, I was not really aware bearing oil could make such a difference, at least audible difference. But it is unmistakable now I know what I am looking for.
I think you are right in that each Turntable will be influenced differently by changing to do different types of oil.
As I have found, oil is not simply for making the platter go round smoothly and stopping wear on the metal parts!!:doh::lol:
Pigmy Pony
08-01-2024, 17:04
Thanks Brian, I was not really aware bearing oil could make such a difference, at least audible difference. But it is unmistakable now I know what I am looking for.
I think you are right in that each Turntable will be influenced differently by changing to do different types of oil.
As I have found, oil is not simply for making the platter go round smoothly and stopping wear on the metal parts!!:doh::lol:
I'd have thought that would be exactly what it was for, but then maybe it's not a case of oil is oil is oil. Varying engineering tolerances and motor torque between turntables may call for different viscosities. Maybe your choice of engine oil is simply too thick.
Anyway, it's good that we have someone with 'golden ears' and the patience and determination to keep plugging away (yes that's you James) :)
I'd have thought that would be exactly what it was for, but then maybe it's not a case of oil is oil is oil. Varying engineering tolerances and motor torque between turntables may call for different viscosities. Maybe your choice of engine oil is simply too thick.
Anyway, it's good that we have someone with 'golden ears' and the patience and determination to keep plugging away (yes that's you James) :)
I wish I hadn't started on this one Steve, its not like I am looking for things to do!:) I am alarmed to find someone else on another forum used the exact same oil as myself and then changed to a more suitable oil and had dramatic results. This just sends my audiophile nervosa into overdrive!:lol:
If the oils too thick I suppose it could retard the platter speed slightly
I've always thought that the popularity of the cheaper Rega decks was at least partly down to the fact that they run slightly too fast.
If the oils too thick I suppose it could retard the platter speed slightly
I've always thought that the popularity of the cheaper Rega decks was at least partly down to the fact that they run slightly too fast.
Not sure if its all to do with speed or transfer of vibration through the bearing and plinth? Different oils certainly have different properties and thus maybe difference effects on the turntable sound?
If the oil is too thick, you could have drag affecting the speed stability. If it is too thin, you could have increased vibrations.
The only issue with the AO Booster is that it does not specify what grade it is. They also do a thick version.
Finding a fully synthetic mono grade SAE 30 or 40 could mean looking at garden machinery oils, as they usually are only run in the summer.
The other thing to look at is the API rating. It has two letters for Petrol engine oil, starting with S. As a rough guide, the higher the 2nd letter, the higher the quality of the oil. But remember, this is a turntable bearing, so a good quality mineral or synthetic oil should be fine, as it is not exposed to heat or contamination.
I have some lawn mower oil so I will check that out too. I also have a range of specialist cycle oils, some of which maybe suitable. I have a feeling it maybe only through experimentation will I know what works. Knowing the viscosity of an oil is one thing but translating that into how it affects turntable performance and thus SQ is another.
It is fairly easy for me to change the oil in my VPI TT so I think it will end up being a new venture for 2024 although it was not one I had planned. I will post up my findings as they maybe useful for other users although I am not sure how my results with different oils will necessarily translate to other types of turntable?
Listening to the system this evening and as I approached 9.00pm there was a noticeable up tick in sound quality. I know this has been discussed before but I am sure what is happening is a reduction in noise floor. Background to the music became inky black and there was a marked increase in clarity and dare I say musicality. You just get drawn into the music more.
Less electrical mush on the line as demand is reduced later at night, yup, it’s a thing.
Annoyed me to the point I went down the balanced mains route to power my gear.
Get that 2am sound quality all of the day.
I've experienced the exact same thing but it had nothing to do with the mains supply, which is always noisy and distorted any time of day or night.
I've experienced the exact same thing but it had nothing to do with the mains supply, which is always noisy and distorted any time of day or night.
What was the cause of your noise Martin?
What was the cause of your noise Martin?
car journey home from work, during a heatwave, with the windows open.
Funny thing was my ears would open up again around the same time every night - about 1930 - and I'd go from thinking 'I really need to upgrade this system' to 'My God this sounds amazing.'
I also assumed it was the mains quality (there is fairly heavy industry nearby) until I did some reading up and started looking for another more likely cause. It was only when the warm weather ended - and so did the problem - that I twigged it.
It was same time every night give or take five minutes.
The turntable oiling session continues with some Audio origami Oil. I don't think I have had this before. I have a feeling I used some Origin Live Oil previously. As you can see the Audio Origami Oil is a menacing green potion. I am just letting the platter spin for a few thousand revolutions before I have a listen. interestingly the platter spins freely for a very long time compared to the 5W-30 synthetic engine oil. Obviously viscosity and friction lower but does this sound better...?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53462921706_03b0631e46_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2psks1b)2605DA3E-4731-4E2F-AB9F-D716561679BC (https://flic.kr/p/2psks1b) by J (https://www.flickr.com/photos/162281319@N03/), on Flickr
brian2957
14-01-2024, 12:05
:popcorn:
I have had a fair few hours and run through a wide range of vinyl with the Audio Origami oil in situ. So how did this green elixir perform in the VPI bearing? Well before I reveal my listening experience I was just thinking about turntable bearings and motors, belt driven turntables, idlers and direct drive and I know from experience and reading countless articles the whole point of the turntable bearing apart from its functionality is to try and remove any sonic trace that it may impart to the turntable.
Direct Drive turntables have gone to many lengths to reduce cogging or any transfer of noise from the drive systems into the bearing. Belt driven turntables obviously don’t have this issue as their whole design removes any motor interference from the drive / bearing. Idlers are in my opinion a half way house but obviously great attention and care is needed to stop any interference of the system getting into the platter.
The whole beauty of belt driven turntables is the lack of inherent noise from the motor/drive but they still do need to have a very quiet bearing and therefore the better machined and designed the bearing the less noise transferred to the platter.
Because noise can be such an issue I can see why turntable manufacturers have gone to great lengths to try and mitigate bearing noise. But it seems incredible to me that noise and vibration can be further reduced with the type of oil used on the bearing.
For some time now I have been considering oils and their potential especially as there are manufacturers now concentrating on all aspects of an oils performance and not simply lubrication. I have found this recently with a company called Park Tool who manufacture a range of lubricants for bikes and they have proven better oils can indeed reduce friction and therefore result in less effort being used to ride. This adds up over a long ride in the amount of watts/energy needed to be expended.
Going back to the Audio Origami oil I was reminded of this once I lubed up the bearing and simply spun the platter. It took forever to slow down and just kept spinning. I thought this looked promising. Friction was obviously reduced compared to the engine oil but how did this translate into performance and more importantly could I hear a difference?
Well I certainly could hear the difference straight off the bat. Immediately there was a much lower noise floor and blacker background to the sound. Transparency to the recording was significantly better and strangely the dynamic nature to the sound was far more evident. It was if some grunge had been removed from the system and a greater sense of clarity and openness allowed the sound in the room to become that bit more detached from the speakers. On a few track I was not aware I was listening to a mechanically / electrically produced sound wave! The sound seem to just float there in front of me.
Obviously this sounds quite profound but that is what I heard and to tell you the truth I was astonished that the Audio Origami oil allowed my turntable to perform so differently. I do not understand what and how it works but there must be some physics behind it probably to do with reducing the impact of the bearing on the stylus ability to pick up background sound / noise or maybe the fluidity of the ultra smooth much reduced friction just translates into a better performance/ sound?
Whatever the reason I am totally amazed at the transformation and up lift in sound quality.
Pigmy Pony
15-01-2024, 11:56
It sounds like you've hit the spot with the Audio Origami oil, well done James. For somebody as cloth-eared as me, the platter taking longer to come to a stop would be all the 'proof' I'd need that friction has been reduced.
It sounds like you've hit the spot with the Audio Origami oil, well done James. For somebody as cloth-eared as me, the platter taking longer to come to a stop would be all the 'proof' I'd need that friction has been reduced.
There are such a wide range of oils out there aimed at turntable bearings, you just need to avoid the ones that are derived from snakes!:lol:
brian2957
15-01-2024, 14:04
Good post James. I recently bought a second hand Rega Planar 3 and listened for a few days. I wasn't sure if it needed a service so changed the oil in the bearing using gear oil, which seems to be the recommended replacement. On listening I thought I had lost some 'air' from the sound and wasn't entirely happy. I did have some Audio Origami oil left from a previous project so decided to try that instead. TBH I was a bit worried that it might affect the speed stability of the T/T. However, my concern appears to have been unfounded and my experience seems to mirror yours. Yes, I'm a bit surprised that different oils could have such a profound effect on SQ like you, but remember this is hifi after all ;)
Good post James. I recently bought a second hand Rega Planar 3 and listened for a few days. I wasn't sure if it needed a service so changed the oil in the bearing using gear oil, which seems to be the recommended replacement. On listening I thought I had lost some 'air' from the sound and wasn't entirely happy. I did have some Audio Origami oil left from a previous project so decided to try that instead. TBH I was a bit worried that it might affect the speed stability of the T/T. However, my concern appears to have been unfounded and my experience seems to mirror yours. Yes, I'm a bit surprised that different oils could have such a profound effect on SQ like you, but remember this is hifi after all ;)
It is such a strange hobby this with unexpected avenues to travel. Who would have thought Oil would make such a difference. It never crossed my mind in the past to investigate this "part" of my system set up as I thought it was just something that was needed like a plug and could not make much difference. But as I have found out in the past even plugs can make a difference.
Its the old maxim "Everything Matters"!
Listened to Gerry Mulligan and Johnny Hodges last night, nice bit of mellow saxophone Jazz from the Classic era. The album is on the Verve record label and is very well recorded in the sense that you get the absolute differences between Gerrys sax and Johnnys and all the huge nuances a saxophone has in its sonic character. If you like hearing the full spectrum from the rasp of lips on the mouth piece through to the full honk of a big tenor sax this is the recording for you. Great mellow swing sound but unfortunately the recording is panned from extreme left and right with Gerry in the left speakers and Johnny in the right and all the percussion either left or right. There seems to be a hole in the middle!
Anyhow the reason I write all this is to give a bit of background to the whole sound of the recording and I must say with the new oil lubricating there was once again that floaty transparent feeling to the sound. Nothing missing but total luxurious lush analogue sound. But after a while I started to wonder had the soundstage now become too extreme, too vast certainly in width. I dunno. But it went way beyond the reaches of the room and was a little disconcerting.
Have to have another listen and think about that one. On all other material the soundstage does sound a wee bit enlarged but totally convincing. Maybe its just those weird 60s -70s recording that were panned to the extreme that sound a bit odd and the oil has accentuated this?
I have another recording that I use as a killer system analyser :) It is Ry Cooder - 13 question method. This is up there with my very top Audiophile recordings and I play it only to test the system and evaluate new gear. This track was used ultimately when I was evaluating a Neurochrome 686 against my humble Croft 7 power amp and it told me everything I needed to know about both amps and hence why I never went for a 686 even though it was a very good amp. I felt the Croft sounded more flesh and blood where as the 686 sounded more bone and sinew.
Listening last night with the Audio Origami oil everything I love about this recording was there. Massive dynamic range, totally convincing 3D vocals and a guitar that is recorded so well it is in the room! My partner is sick to death of it but I marvel at this recording every time I play it. The new bearing oil just lowered the noise floor and allowed a spine tingling very vivid performance. Crazy stuff!
I am glad you have got your oil sorted. One less thing to worry about.
I am glad you have got your oil sorted. One less thing to worry about.
Yeah I don't think I need to go any further with the oil as the TT sounds so good now. In fact probably performing better than at any time since I bought it!
Sometime back I was looking at replacing the Croft 7 power amplifier with a few alternatives in order to gain some more power and indeed I tried using Croft Series 7R monos but they didn't do the trick. I also tried a Neurochrome 686 but preferred my Croft 7. The Neurochrome was quoted with way more power but certainly didn't sound it in practice? I did borrow an old SS amp off a friend but that was a bit slow and veiled so I had thought I may try a Class D and the only amp I really thought might sound great and not just give me lots of power was the Purifi Eigentakt Power amplifier. I have been interested in this amp for a long time as indeed it does seem to have had a great reputation from its inception.
There are a number of different manufacturers who build the Eigentakt power modules into an amplifier and to be fair it hard to do it cheaper yourself!
But for anyone interested in building their own Purifi amplifier here is an excellent video tutorial. No soldering needed so very straight forward build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMmkK8jisDg
These chaps also do some great videos comparing class D amps including the purifi which are quite interesting.
The 686 power will depend on the build, and what the input voltage is.
If it is a “safe and sane” build, you are looking at about 120w into 8ohms. You need to up the input voltage to get the max power output. I wanted mine to run relatively cool, so went for a reasonably “safe and sane” build.
the Krell amp I use lights up an LED if it outputs more than 0.75 of a watt for more than two seconds
You've really got to cane it to get it to light up (with large 90dB speakers in a large-ish room).
Voltage regulation matters more - if the speaker load is demanding - unless using insensitive speakers.
Never hurts to have more watts but usually not necessary. Plus double the watts power is only 3dB 'louder' which is noticeable but not a lot.
There's watts and there's watts. In my experience the quoted output for an amplifier does not always translate into what you hear and how it drives your speakers. I have heard some low powered valve amps that sounded way more powerful than they were and I have heard SS amps that had a huge quoted power output but you would not have guessed when you listened to them.
I have heard some Monster power amps - 750W monos and they certainly gripped the drive units and thumped your chest. Bizarrely I heard some Croft low powered OTL mono power amps and they gripped and controlled the speakers unbelievably and they were only 10W each!
Martin my experience of Krell amps is they do what they say on the tin!:)
well it's all about the combination of speaker impedance curve/phase angle and sensitivity and efficiency of the loudspeaker - it's a complex relationship - in the real world you have to just try it and see (or hear) how good it works, paper specs only a guideline.
with a valve amp using output transformers it's even more of a lottery since you can get frequency response variations as it interacts with speaker impedance. This could make a valve amp seem more powerful depending on that interaction.
I'm personally not much for valve power amps (unless OTL) since you really do need to choose the speaker very carefully to get an accurate response and for me that's the tail wagging the dog. I rather choose speaker then get an amp to drive them.
Heard too many systems with valve power amps and you get that bloat or even boom in the bass which ruins the whole sound - although some seem to like 1950s radiogram bass.
Most speakers have a typical efficiency of about 5%. Thus if you want to achieve an SPL of 99dBm at 1m distance from the speakers, then you need about 1W of power.
Horn loaded speakers are much more efficient, which is why they can be used with amps offering single figure output power.
Whereas electrostatic speakers are much less efficient and need correspondingly greater amplifier power to achieve the same SPL.
I tend to agree with you there regarding power amps. In general I would say that most of the all valve power amps I have heard are a bit "uncontrolled" in the bass. My power amp is not really a valve power amp. It is an OTL hybrid with MOSFETS doing the work of the output valves so it behaves a little more like a SS with only one valve on the input stage.
I have heard so many SS power amps over the years and so I have a good handle on what they can and cannot do. Everything from Ultra linear, total control, neutral sounding to Warm, fat almost tube like sound. There are many chocolates in the box to pick from depending on what you want to achieve but for me it has to be foremost an engaging sound that is not fatiguing and provides plenty of detail and warmth. I don't like neutral, flat sounding amps that are supposedly truthful. I put the Krell amps in the warmer end of my category and they are certainly engaging and have plenty of drive.
I initially dismissed Class D amps as a possible replacement for the Croft as they had so many aspects about them I would instantly dislike but I heard a conversation about the Purifi amps that suggested they had some aspects about them that were similar to valve amps but without the valve amp negatives and indeed they have the ability to control and drive larger speakers with great control especially the bass which is why they have been used for many years in active speakers plus their size and limited heat output. The only question would be would a Purifi sound as live and engaging and dare I say as musical as my Croft?
The purifi amplifier can be had for very little money and this would where I would start. Try and build that yourself for that price?
https://nordacoustics.co.uk/product-category/purifi-1et400a/ I am looking at the Nord 3 stereo power amp at £1099!
Pigmy Pony
21-01-2024, 10:32
IIRC Gordon Halftree had some Nord multi-channel amplifier powering his Linkwitz speakers at NEBO a couple of years ago, Sounded fantastic, which may have been down to the speakers, but obviously the amp wasn't letting the side down. And Gordon knows his stuff...
IIRC Gordon Halftree had some Nord multi-channel amplifier powering his Linkwitz speakers at NEBO a couple of years ago, Sounded fantastic, which may have been down to the speakers, but obviously the amp wasn't letting the side down. And Gordon knows his stuff...
I have heard Gordons system Steve and it is stunning. His multi amp approach and system set up is something else as is the sound.
well it's all about the combination of speaker impedance curve/phase angle and sensitivity and efficiency of the loudspeaker - it's a complex relationship - in the real world you have to just try it and see (or hear) how good it works, paper specs only a guideline.
with a valve amp using output transformers it's even more of a lottery since you can get frequency response variations as it interacts with speaker impedance. This could make a valve amp seem more powerful depending on that interaction.
I'm personally not much for valve power amps (unless OTL) since you really do need to choose the speaker very carefully to get an accurate response and for me that's the tail wagging the dog. I rather choose speaker then get an amp to drive them.
Heard too many systems with valve power amps and you get that bloat or even boom in the bass which ruins the whole sound - although some seem to like 1950s radiogram bass.
Yeah the technical aspects of hooking up amps to speakers regarding impedance curve/phase angle, sensitivity/efficiency etc is very complex when trying to find the perfect amp combination and relying on technical measurements alone simply does not work. Suck it and see is really the only way you are going to know.
Throw in room interaction and your into another whole level of pain.
Back to the room acoustics and I found this very good video from New Record Day that demonstrates very well the effects of treating a room. He uses a binaural dummy and headphones to record what he hears and it is very impressive if you listen to this through headphones. You can certainly tell the difference the room treatment makes. This is an ongoing project he is doing so more to come. But some of it reflects my own experiences and is definitely worth listening too.
Today just listening to my own acoustics in my listening room I can tell there is a bit more to go but I am not far off a very nice balanced sound somewhere between live and dead. Think I need to get on with those few more panels I need and I recon I am done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiALw5Qjw7Y
It is worth listening to his whole series on room acoustics. No one has done a demonstration of room acoustics as effectively as he has.
This video further demonstrates amazingly well the difference diffusion does or doesn't make. Very interesting conclusions and it confirms much of what has been happening in my own listening room even though I did not know exactly what I was doing?:)
Some aspects of the sound I experienced including imaging and more precision delayering information in a recording to sound more coherent have definitely been as a result of some of the room treatment I have used. I likened it to improving the focus of everything in the recording. I am even more enthusiastic about further investigation after watching and listening to this brilliant set of videos by New Record Day. I fabulous demonstration and tool for anyone interested in room treatment and its consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSMgp0wK8Uo
AJSki2fly
30-01-2024, 12:07
I am even more enthusiastic about further investigation after watching and listening to this brilliant set of videos by New Record Day. I fabulous demonstration and tool for anyone interested in room treatment and its consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSMgp0wK8Uo
Hi James,
I just watched this and one of his other videos on Reverb and Room EQ generally, he demonstrates very well how a room has a major influence on what and how we hear music from how HiFi systems. Stopping reflections at critical nodes of a room can and usually does make a clear difference to clarity and detail, the echo muddle being removed allows for a clearer aural soundstage.
Like you I started from simple experiments using strategically placed materials and objects to stop reflections and bass enhancement, and taking REW measurements as I went. What I did find interesting was that small improvement in the EQ curve could have big improvements on the perceived SQ. As with most of us I had to compromise in the living room where the HiFi is, If I want to do some serious listening I use temporary velvet side curtains at the 1st reflection points, slug up on temporary rods clipped into hooks on the walls, and cover the 55" flat TV over with a dense fleece blanket. I took measurements of this set up and I get a flatter frequency sweep and reverb is down below 300ms across the spectrum, which I think is recommended.
I will be interested to see how you address diffusion and if you make some diffusers yourself.
Cheers Adrian
Hi James,
I just watched this and one of his other videos on Reverb and Room EQ generally, he demonstrates very well how a room has a major influence on what and how we hear music from how HiFi systems. Stopping reflections at critical nodes of a room can and usually does make a clear difference to clarity and detail, the echo muddle being removed allows for a clearer aural soundstage.
Like you I started from simple experiments using strategically placed materials and objects to stop reflections and bass enhancement, and taking REW measurements as I went. What I did find interesting was that small improvement in the EQ curve could have big improvements on the perceived SQ. As with most of us I had to compromise in the living room where the HiFi is, If I want to do some serious listening I use temporary velvet side curtains at the 1st reflection points, slug up on temporary rods clipped into hooks on the walls, and cover the 55" flat TV over with a dense fleece blanket. I took measurements of this set up and I get a flatter frequency sweep and reverb is down below 300ms across the spectrum, which I think is recommended.
I will be interested to see how you address diffusion and if you make some diffusers yourself.
Cheers Adrian
Not tried any diffusers yet but lots of interesting designs on the market. Might look at making some myself. However I need to address some more reverb and excessive reflections first! Not worried about bass but clearing up the midrange and top end seems to bring about big rewards the more I do.
AJSki2fly
30-01-2024, 18:23
Not tried any diffusers yet but lots of interesting designs on the market. Might look at making some myself. However I need to address some more reverb and excessive reflections first! Not worried about bass but clearing up the midrange and top end seems to bring about big rewards the more I do.
Stick some big plants in the corners, or similar, I have a 5’ tall sheaf of ornamental Reed in one of ours, made a difference to bass reverb. Shelves with randomly placed books and objects behind where you sit helps as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just recreate a 1970s room:
Shag pile carpets, with rugs on top ('So the carpet doesn't get marked')
Heavy curtains (double glazing rare back then)
Bookshelves full of books, with ornaments and other tat scattered on top
Pictures all over the walls along with other tat like a dagger from Morocco or one of those drinking horns hanging up
Heavily padded, fabric covered chairs and couch
Big rubber plants in big pots
No comparison with your modern faux-Danish style rooms for sound quality, they are always way too bright.
A 1970s room yesterday
https://i.ibb.co/M817VYn/1970.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
Modern glare factory (earlier today)
https://i.ibb.co/prbwTC3/cont.jpg (https://ibb.co/Fqm31GB)
upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
A 1970s room yesterday
https://i.ibb.co/M817VYn/1970.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
Modern glare factory (earlier today)
https://i.ibb.co/prbwTC3/cont.jpg (https://ibb.co/Fqm31GB)
upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
Brilliant. That's why music and hifi sounded better in the 70's!:lol:
Just recreate a 1970s room:
Shag pile carpets, with rugs on top ('So the carpet doesn't get marked')
Heavy curtains (double glazing rare back then)
Bookshelves full of books, with ornaments and other tat scattered on top
Pictures all over the walls along with other tat like a dagger from Morocco or one of those drinking horns hanging up
Heavily padded, fabric covered chairs and couch
Big rubber plants in big pots
No comparison with your modern faux-Danish style rooms for sound quality, they are always way too bright.
Sounds like my room, except for the rubber plants. Certainly there are shelves of books and LPs, and heavy curtains.
I think if you take a look at my room I am somewhere in the middle?:)
Out of interest, what are the dimensions of your listening room?
Out of interest, what are the dimensions of your listening room?
23 x 9 x 12.5
But I can open doors out at back of room to add another 15 feet behind listening position.
That's roughly the same size as mine (but in mine there is a change in width halfway down the length of the room).
Given the position of two doors to the room, and the fact that over most of frequency response the speakers have a dipole polar pattern, there really is only one location where the speakers can be placed.
Add to that there are patio doors at the speaker end, and a full width window at the listening end.
That's roughly the same size as mine (but in mine there is a change in width halfway down the length of the room).
Given the position of two doors to the room, and the fact that over most of frequency response the speakers have a dipole polar pattern, there really is only one location where the speakers can be placed.
Add to that there are patio doors at the speaker end, and a full width window at the listening end.
I sometimes think my room does tend to concentrate the sound because of the relatively narrow width, however using acoustic treatment here and there does tend to change things somewhat. Weirdly I get a wider soundstage using first reflection panels but I suppose what is happening is that I am receiving a more direct and accurate construction of the top end frequencies which are mainly responsible for "painting the picture".
The more accurate and symmetrical you can get the timing of the top end frequencies the more layering, and sound stage information/imaging is revealed.
Calculation for my room without treatment gives a RT60 time of 0.6, however with the treatment I have currently I am at about 0.4. I need to get down RT60 value to about 0.3 so more treatment definitely needed. Having just looked at a whole load of new material I really need to get some panels on the ceiling and also increase the number and size of some of my other panels.
I will have to step carefully in order to achieve this or else I will fall foul of the domestic control police! :uhho:
0.4 is within the acceptable range I wouldn't worry too much about it.
A large room will naturally have a longer reverberation time, that's not necessarily bad for sound quality. Like in a church you might get RT60 over six seconds but it actually makes the organ and choir sound better, not worse.
Nothing is simple in acoustics!
0.4 is within the acceptable range I wouldn't worry too much about it.
A large room will naturally have a longer reverberation time, that's not necessarily bad for sound quality. Like in a church you might get RT60 over six seconds but it actually makes the organ and choir sound better, not worse.
Nothing is simple in acoustics!
Yeah you're right and I do think it is a matter of taste too. It is a personal listening space and should suit the listener however I am fascinated by what changes can be made altering the acoustics. Simple enough to add stuff and then take it away!:)
Yeah you're right and I do think it is a matter of taste too. It is a personal listening space and should suit the listener however I am fascinated by what changes can be made altering the acoustics. Simple enough to add stuff and then take it away!:)
It's certainly a matter of taste - plus the specific speakers and room acoustic. No one size fits all with this stuff.
Personally I've only used specific treatments on problem areas - where I was getting obvious slap and flutter echo that was distracting.
Then I had one panel left so put that on the wall by the speaker that's nearest the wall. No idea what I expected that to do but it doesn't seem to be much :) So I've left it there.
The sound seems to come totally from the end of the room with the speakers in, I don't perceive it as bouncing about so I think that's about right. I think I'd start killing it if I did more. But like you say, you can always rip it down again.
Useful tool/site for room acoustic measurements. Just plug your room dimensions in and you will get an estimated evaluation.
https://amcoustics.com
Useful tool/site for room acoustic measurements. Just plug your room dimensions in and you will get an estimated evaluation.
https://amcoustics.com
Do you have to enter the materials used to build the room?
It all depends on the type of sound. For the intellegibility of speech, the size of the venue is quite different to that for music:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1705/6717/files/REVERBERATION_TIME_STANDARDS_-_reverberation_time_chart_rt60_t60_for_different_r ooms_and_venues_grande.jpg?v=1566926361
The reverberation time (RT60) is proportional to the volume of the venue, that is, your listening room:
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/3-s2.0-B9780123982582000210-f21-09-9780123982582.jpg?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwib9-7ZmZCEAxXc8QIHHQOaAdMQ_B16BAgAEAI
So in your case with a total volume of 2,587.5 cu ft, 300ms is about right. But these figures depend strongly on the absorption coeficients of the wall, floor and ceiling of the room, as well as those of the room's contents; and the coefficients are often frequency dependent.
Have you ever wondered why in cinemas, theatres and concert halls the seats are usually cushioned? It's partly for the comfort of the sitter, but it is also to mimic the sound absorption of a human body when the seat is unoccupied.
It's all a bit of a 'mine field' - so don't go overboard with it all!
I appreciate how the RT60 figure is also affected by room furnishings, never mind additional room treatment. Your mention of cushioned seats in a cinema is a good example of subtle acoustic manipulation.
I have three heavy padded sofas in my listening room plus thermal lined heavy curtains and carpet so taking those into account requires only small amounts of room treatment and it is only reflection points that I am trying to eliminate. I seriously need to get something on the ceiling but feel this could be a battle Royale with my listening partner!:lol:
AJSki2fly
04-02-2024, 09:36
Calculation for my room without treatment gives a RT60 time of 0.6, however with the treatment I have currently I am at about 0.4. I need to get down RT60 value to about 0.3 so more treatment definitely needed. Having just looked at a whole load of new material I really need to get some panels on the ceiling and also increase the number and size of some of my other panels.
I will have to step carefully in order to achieve this or else I will fall foul of the domestic control police! :uhho:
Buy her some expensive luxury scatter cushions and some lovely soft wall hangings and tell her it’s to create a romantic atmosphere[emoji23]
Buy her some expensive luxury scatter cushions and some lovely soft wall hangings and tell her it’s to create a romantic atmosphere[emoji23]
The absorption panels are "soft wall hangings":)
a panel on the ceiling needn't look bad and how often do we look at the ceiling anyway? Keep it the same colour as the rest of the ceiling and it won't be noticeable.
I've thought about it but getting one up there and keeping it up there seems like a logistical nightmare.
Ceiling is 9.5 feet high anyway so I've convinced myself it doesn't matter.
Whether it does matter depends on the vertical dispersion of the speaker in use. I don't have that measurement for my speakers so ignorance is bliss.
a panel on the ceiling needn't look bad and how often do we look at the ceiling anyway? Keep it the same colour as the rest of the ceiling and it won't be noticeable.
I've thought about it but getting one up there and keeping it up there seems like a logistical nightmare.
Ceiling is 9.5 feet high anyway so I've convinced myself it doesn't matter.
Whether it does matter depends on the vertical dispersion of the speaker in use. I don't have that measurement for my speakers so ignorance is bliss.
If you have a ceiling over 15 feet high its effect on the sound from you speakers disappears so no treatment needed. I have been listening to the New Record Day videos and his demonstration using binaural sound in headphones gives an astonishing insight into exactly what room treatment does. As he proceeds through different parts of the treatment from bass traps to first reflection etc and dispersion you can very easily hear the differences before and after.
Ceiling treatment is essential in my book once you have heard it. Whether out happens or not is another thing!:)
Pigmy Pony
04-02-2024, 10:15
Buy her some expensive luxury scatter cushions and some lovely soft wall hangings and tell her it’s to create a romantic atmosphere[emoji23]
That could work, but I'd stop short of putting mirrors on the ceiling - that would just ruin what you're trying to achieve :doh:
Having messed around with room acoustics for over a year now I am convinced this is the most fundamental aspects for getting the best out of my system as it profoundly affects what you hear. Way more than changing pieces of kit....apart from loudspeakers which determine more of what you hear than any other part of your system.
For the last 40 years I have tinkered with my system on and off like a demented audio fool but have found by a process of subjective analysis that some things work and some don't and more importantly I have found what works for me and the sound I like. This gets you near the bulls eye, say 90% there in terms of system satisfaction but it is the last 5-10% that makes the real difference and I have found a rich seam of exploration in system set up and room acoustics which has moved everything to the next level without having to change boxes etc.
I have made huge gains from room acoustics that I never experienced by box swapping and it has effectively opened up the full potential of the equipment I currently have and made listening to music and much more rewarding experience. Room treatment has always been the elephant in the room and the final frontier as far as I am concerned and has been and still is the most exciting and rewarding aspect of my hifi journey.
That could work, but I'd stop short of putting mirrors on the ceiling - that would just ruin what you're trying to achieve :doh:
That's for the bedroom surely?:lol:
If you have a ceiling over 15 feet high its effect on the sound from you speakers disappears so no treatment needed. I have been listening to the New Record Day videos and his demonstration using binaural sound in headphones gives an astonishing insight into exactly what room treatment does. As he proceeds through different parts of the treatment from bass traps to first reflection etc and dispersion you can very easily hear the differences before and after.
Ceiling treatment is essential in my book once you have heard it. Whether out happens or not is another thing!:)
well it certainly makes a difference but we want a positive difference not just a difference and that's the tricky bit.
Have to say I am not much for the Youtube videos on the subject - either they are made by people selling room treatment products, so their advice amounts to 'You can never have enough' or they don't even understand the basics of what they are talking about.
Pigmy Pony
04-02-2024, 11:28
That's for the bedroom surely?:lol:
Where's your sense of adventure? :)
Have to say I am not much for the Youtube videos on the subject - either they are made by people selling room treatment products, so their advice amounts to 'You can never have enough' or they don't even understand the basics of what they are talking about.
My thoughts exactly.
Not sure which to choose from - Youtube video or someone talking Boll*cks on a forum?:lol:
Personally I go with my own evaluation and assessment because really that's all that matters as its my cash and my ears.:) However having said all that its good to get a confirmation sometimes from folk who have been down the same path and experienced the same thing.
Not sure which to choose from - Youtube video or someone talking Boll*cks on a forum?:lol:
.
I like to go to the source - the research papers and textbooks. But that's not for everyone.
I like to go to the source - the research papers and textbooks. But that's not for everyone.
Yeah I do plenty of that too but sometimes you have to be careful who is funding the research and who is writing the conclusions.
Yeah I do plenty of that too but sometimes you have to be careful who is funding the research and who is writing the conclusions.
Absolutely.
Yeah I do plenty of that too but sometimes you have to be careful who is funding the research and who is writing the conclusions.
So do whenever possible.
But theory isn't everything, or even guaranteed. It is salutary to note that some of the best concert venues were built long before the science of acoustics was started: the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, and the Musikvereinssaal in Vienna, amongst others; whereas some of the poorest-sounding venues were designed following acoustical theories: The Royal Festival Hall on the South Bank, and the Barbican, both in London.
I ought to add that active echo cancellation has been installed at the South Bank, and that at the Barbican, the best seats where the acoustics are good are just in front of the control booth and upper tier seats.
I pop into a major concert Hall quite regularly in Birmingham which is meant to be one of the best sounding concert halls in Europe and I must say I have heard some great stuff there Jazz, classical and rock music. But occasional you get a muppet on the mixing desk with cloth ears and it all goes horribly wrong and I have heard some dreadful poorly mixed stuff which have completely ruined my experience and that was usually with fantastic artists I had been waiting years to hear!
Best ever sound was Kraftwerk a few years back and it was utterly spellbinding and magnificent but I am sure they had absolutely everything under very tight control.
So even concert halls with great acoustics can sound terrible if you have amplified sound that is out of control. Not even the acoustic design of the hall can save you from thunderous amplified bass that swamps everything.
So do whenever possible.
But theory isn't everything, or even guaranteed. It is salutary to note that some of the best concert venues were built long before the science of acoustics was started: the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, and the Musikvereinssaal in Vienna, amongst others; whereas some of the poorest-sounding venues were designed following acoustical theories: The Royal Festival Hall on the South Bank, and the Barbican, both in London.
I ought to add that active echo cancellation has been installed at the South Bank, and that at the Barbican, the best seats where the acoustics are good are just in front of the control booth and upper tier seats.
RFH was designed in the 1940s so modern research has come some distance since then both for auditoriums and domestic rooms. Only to discover that the ancient Greeks and later the Muslims pretty much knew it all already.
The problem with the RFH was they made it too absorbent. there was not enough reverb. Allegedly because it wasn't built exactly to spec.
The ancient Greeks certainly knew how to build open-air auditoriums. I have visited several in Europe and North Africa. If you stand in the right spot (the acoustic focal point) you can be heard clearly anywhere in the tiered seats.
I pop into a major concert Hall quite regularly in Birmingham which is meant to be one of the best sounding concert halls in Europe and I must say I have heard some great stuff there Jazz, classical and rock music. But occasional you get a muppet on the mixing desk with cloth ears and it all goes horribly wrong and I have heard some dreadful poorly mixed stuff which have completely ruined my experience and that was usually with fantastic artists I had been waiting years to hear!
Best ever sound was Kraftwerk a few years back and it was utterly spellbinding and magnificent but I am sure they had absolutely everything under very tight control.
So even concert halls with great acoustics can sound terrible if you have amplified sound that is out of control. Not even the acoustic design of the hall can save you from thunderous amplified bass that swamps everything.
The Symphony Hall was opened in 1991, so by they had learnt a lot about acoustic by then. I haven’t been there, but I can believe it does have world standard acoustics.
A neat idea used is to 'alcoves' which can be opened or closed to suit the required acoustic appropriate to the size of the performing group.
As I need to increase my panel size and quantity for the room acoustic treatment I have decided to go with some manufactured panels from a local company. They do a wide range of sizes, material infill and material cloth finishes in about 200 colours. I think their price is very good indeed a I would be hard pressed to build one myself for the price they are knocking them out for!
So if you are interested in some very nicely finished, well manufactured panels for a reasonable price I have attached a link here:
https://acousticpanels.co.uk/product/square-echo-acoustic-wall-panels/
Further fine tuning of the system has bought about a significant change to the overall sound . I have concentrated over the last year or so on room acoustics and system set up in particular speaker positioning placement and gained huge rewards. These have far out weighed any gains I have made in controlling vibration, tube rolling, cable changes or indeed equipment changes! I know I have been banging on about this for a good while but I am now more convinced more than ever that the interaction of your system with the room is the biggest fundamental factor in what you hear. Through my evaluation of acoustic treatment and system set up I have gained so much but it has been painstaking and may not be over yet.
I know for many it is a ball ache to swap and install acoustic material or even move speakers around but through trial and evaluation I have been amazed at the difference and a small changes can have a large impact . But room acoustics are a complex thing with so much to take into consideration and each step that you make has consequences as I found out last week. As I have written before the areas I have had the most improvement in were soundstage, imaging, ambient acoustics, transparency, tonal quality and layering of harmonic information. All subtle stuff and highly subjective but It is what I observed.
One area that was not really on my radar was detail. I know for some folk this is everything and it drives their motivation to buy gear that forensically throws more and more detail. For me I prefer the bigger picture and all the other aspects of sound quality I have listed too, but in the last few days I was shocked at another small change I made which has had a huge impact on everything. To quantify this I must just say that with controlling room acoustics although it improves many aspects of the sound quality it does have some negative aspects mainly detail retrieval . Obviously most detail is found in the higher frequencies and this is where the room treatment can adversely affect detail retrieval. Controlling everything else can scrub off some of the detail but I found a way of bringing it back without adding any brightness or harshness what so ever!
My Heco speakers have an option to lift the treble by 2db on the crossover which they recommend using in acoustic environments probably like my own. Now before the room treatment I found this option too bright and it sounded harsh but with the room acoustic treatment is has simply elevated the high end frequency information to another level and I am shocked at how much! Even some of my poorer recordings now sound superb and the really great recordings are now off the scale!
This has now tipped the balance of the sound in all areas as the uplift in detail accentuates so many other aspects of the sound quality and makes everything sound more live. It is really hard to describe the sound now but it is extremely vivid, live sounding, very transparent and holographic. Hard to put into words but sitting there last week listening I could close my eyes and there was nothing obvious there between me and the performer but an uncanny presence in the room. This was also witnessed by audiophile buddy who sits off axis and was also gobsmacked by the uplift.
Everything is a culmination of small factors that add to the listening experience. My step by step approach to room acoustics and system set up has now given me a truly outstanding level of performance that I would not have believed could be gained from the tinkering I have done. I would say to anyone who really wants the best from their system to pursue this area of their hifi as I have found more gains from room acoustics/system set up than from anything else I have done in my 40 years messing about with this hobby!:)
it is amazing how small adjustments in the FR can change the whole sound. I think if more people realised this there would be less focus on things like cables and doorstops on top of DACs and a bit more on the things that really do make a difference.
BTW did you know that according to Amazon your speakers will only take 20 watts - and are waterproof? :)
https://i.ibb.co/BBks8m0/heco.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
it is amazing how small adjustments in the FR can change the whole sound. I think if more people realised this there would be less focus on things like cables and doorstops on top of DACs and a bit more on the things that really do make a difference.
BTW did you know that according to Amazon your speakers will only take 20 watts - and are waterproof? :)
https://i.ibb.co/BBks8m0/heco.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
So I can use my speakers outside?!:lol:
You're absolutely right Martin. I found adjusting the FR really has a huge impact on the sound and sometimes in ways you don't expect.
AJSki2fly
11-02-2024, 07:35
So I can use my speakers outside?!:lol:
You're absolutely right Martin. I found adjusting the FR really has a huge impact on the sound and sometimes in ways you don't expect.
Yes, I completely agree, I have said much the same myself but not as eloquently as yourself.
Unfortunately my better half has put a stop to further room treatments, so I am forced to use temporary ones easily removed. So for near perfect listening sessions[emoji23] it’s curtains at side walls, TV covered with a fleece throw and Venetian blinds over windows at odd angles, it is amazing how a quick change that takes 5 minutes can bring focus, detail and depth. I know it works as I measured it with REW but my ears are my prime judge of it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I completely agree, I have said much the same myself but not as eloquently as yourself.
Unfortunately my better half has put a stop to further room treatments, so I am forced to use temporary ones easily removed. So for near perfect listening sessions[emoji23] it’s curtains at side walls, TV covered with a fleece throw and Venetian blinds over windows at odd angles, it is amazing how a quick change that takes 5 minutes can bring focus, detail and depth. I know it works as I measured it with REW but my ears are my prime judge of it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At least you can do something even if it's only temporary as I know how difficult it is to incorporate room treatment into a "domestic" environment in a harmonious way. Unless we are single or have a "man cave" no one can really get away with the full acoustic treatment in place and have good relations with the other half!:lol:
But being aware of the differences and what room acoustic treatment can do to improve aspects of your system is certainly the first step. Even temporary solving problem areas is a good move.
I have some temporary acoustic treatment as well as permanent but my plan is to slowly creep the permanent stuff in more and more!:sofa:
AJSki2fly
12-02-2024, 07:15
.
I have some temporary acoustic treatment as well as permanent but my plan is to slowly creep the permanent stuff in more and more!:sofa:
My boss, wife, say “you must have a big pair of pants if you think you’re going to get away with that!” [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
hornucopia
13-02-2024, 22:12
Darko on his channel is expounding on room treatment,as essential.
Your comment on a hall (philharmonic?) having alcoves reminds me of a chapel in Spain that has open ceramic pots embedded
in the walls that must add ambience, I guess.
Not sure I can replicate that concept in my living area!
Over the last few weeks I have been doing a bit of work on the old Lenco GL75 and trying to sort out a few issues I have with it. One area that has always been a concern was the fact it sits on its original springs which have seen better days and sag at different heights which cause an issue with levelling the turntable. I am not a great believer in the technical merits of these springs as I know the intentions of Lenco to design some sort of isolation from footfall and the like and prevent unwanted vibration reaching the table.
However I don't think they are anywhere near their original compliance and effectiveness after sitting for the best part of 50 years with a massive platter / motor weight weighing them down. So my options are to remove altogether or replace with something better or at least closer to the original spring performance. The jury is out on this one? I know so many of these turntables have gone on to become "projects" and I am very tempted myself but I would like to keep this one original as it is a true classic and it doesn't sound bad!:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53557691741_8340a14372_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pAHaQi)IMG_0671 (https://flic.kr/p/2pAHaQi) by , on Flickr
Wakefield Turntables
28-02-2024, 19:46
Keep them if your happy with the way the TT sounds.
Keep them if your happy with the way the TT sounds.
The Lenco may sound great but it is popped up on a pile of drinks coasters!:doh:
The Lenco may sound great but it is popped up on a pile of drinks coasters!:doh:
Replace them with audiophile versions and the deck will sound even better. :D
Wakefield Turntables
28-02-2024, 20:33
Replace them with audiophile versions and the deck will sound even better. :D
Yeah +1!
Out last night to see a cover band called Darkside. They were resident for the whole weekend at a local venue playing Pink Floyds back catalogue, however last nights performance included the whole of Dark Side of the Moon plus a few choice tracks, Wish You Were Here, Comfortably Numb! To be fair they did a very good job and when they were on it they were very good. The girl who was backing singer was really the star of the show. Her rendition of "The great gig in the sky" was magnificent and probably as good as the original! This is a very difficult piece to sing and she was stunning.
Anyway great night out and very entertaining. Good to see some live stuff although it was a tiny venue. When you hear amplified bass etc you realise your own system sounds like a tiny tranny radio!:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53565865497_2f94aa80e1_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pBr4B8)IMG_0699 (https://flic.kr/p/2pBr4B8) by , on Flickr
There are several Pink Floyd appreciation cover bands around the world. One of the most amusing is the Welsh 'Pync Ffloyd', who I presume cover Floyd's work in the Welsh language.
Looks like the cover group you saw did a very good job, and you had a good time. :)
There are several Pink Floyd appreciation cover bands around the world. One of the most amusing is the Welsh 'Pynk Ffloyd', who I presume cover Floyd's work in the Welsh language.
Looks like the cover group you saw did a very good job, and you had a good time. :)
The lead guitarist was very good indeed. Great night out and only £22 a ticket!
Pigmy Pony
04-03-2024, 12:56
There are several Pink Floyd appreciation cover bands around the world. One of the most amusing is the Welsh 'Pynk Ffloyd', who I presume cover Floyd's work in the Welsh language.
Looks like the cover group you saw did a very good job, and you had a good time. :)
I bet they did a storming version of "Careful with that Acs Eugene" :)
I saw The Australian Pink Floyd show in Liverpool a few years ago - they were great, and their efforts sounded closer to the original songs than Pink Floyd themselves did when I saw them 25 years earlier.
I bet they did a storming version of "Careful with that Acs Eugene" :)
I saw The Australian Pink Floyd show in Liverpool a few years ago - they were great, and their efforts sounded closer to the original songs than Pink Floyd themselves did when I saw them 25 years earlier.
They did a mash up of Careful with that axe Eugene and Interstellar Overdrive. Great stuff. Even did Arnold Layne!
I heard the Pink Floyd play 'Arnold Layne' in Bristol, way back in1968. Syd Barrett was on stage, but it is entirely possible that Dave Gilmour was 'covering' for him in the wings.
Good lightshow though. :)
I heard the Pink Floyd play 'Arnold Layne' in Bristol, way back in1968. Syd Barrett was on stage, but it is entirely possible that Dave Gilmour was 'covering' for him in the wings.
Good lightshow though. :)
Yeah bet those early days were great. I saw them in 1980 at Earls Court playing The Wall for the first time. The experience has never diminished. No one in all the intervening years has come anywhere near close to that experience.
Wakefield Turntables
05-03-2024, 18:30
You two are really lucky! I once managed to catch Live from Pompeii on Channel 4 once. :eek:
You two are really lucky! I once managed to catch Live from Pompeii on Channel 4 once. :eek:
Did you see this photo of me standing outside Earls Court waiting to go in. I am the one in the denim jacket!
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53259052546_1d35bac30d_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2p9jyNE)A6B59C56-E4E9-4AD1-9800-900394765EB1 (https://flic.kr/p/2p9jyNE) by , on Flickr
Lawrence001
05-03-2024, 22:34
Out last night to see a cover band called Darkside. They were resident for the whole weekend at a local venue playing Pink Floyds back catalogue, however last nights performance included the whole of Dark Side of the Moon plus a few choice tracks, Wish You Were Here, Comfortably Numb! To be fair they did a very good job and when they were on it they were very good. The girl who was backing singer was really the star of the show. Her rendition of "The great gig in the sky" was magnificent and probably as good as the original! This is a very difficult piece to sing and she was stunning.
Anyway great night out and very entertaining. Good to see some live stuff although it was a tiny venue. When you hear amplified bass etc you realise your own system sounds like a tiny tranny radio!:)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53565865497_2f94aa80e1_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2pBr4B8)IMG_0699 (https://flic.kr/p/2pBr4B8) by , on FlickrI'd rather see them in a small venue than the proper Pink Floyd in a large venue. Can't stand big gigs.
I prefer listening to the CD than going to a stadium gig.
I went to see Iron Maiden (my fave band) at Twickenham once, watched about 5 mins and spent the rest of the gig in the bar. It wasn't quite the Ruskin Arms.
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I'd rather see them in a small venue than the proper Pink Floyd in a large venue. Can't stand big gigs.
I prefer listening to the CD than going to a stadium gig.
I went to see Iron Maiden (my fave band) at Twickenham once, watched about 5 mins and spent the rest of the gig in the bar. It wasn't quite the Ruskin Arms.
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I saw Iron Maiden as a support band to AC/DC back in 1976 on their Highway to Hell tour at Bingley Hall Stafford. Didn't know who Iron Maiden were and don't think I made much effort to listen to them but certainly listened to Bon Scott and Mr Young do their stuff. Bingley Hall was not a particularly large venue and watching one of the worlds soon to be mega rock bands before their move to massive stadiums was a fantastic experience.
I think for me AC/DC were at their height as a band then although I am sure others may disagree but then I am not sure that many folk who became fans of the band saw them perform at a small venue and with Bon Scott. They only know them as the stadium mega rock band?
I think for me AC/DC were at their height as a band then although I am sure others may disagree but then
Not me. Johnson is a great but no-one's ever been a better rock vocalist than Bon Scott.
First three albums are the best and nothing they did after 'Back In Black' ever really grabbed me.
Not me. Johnson is a great but no-one's ever been a better rock vocalist than Bon Scott.
First three albums are the best and nothing they did after 'Back In Black' ever really grabbed me.
Spot on Martin. Back in Black was their high point. Bon Scott had so much energy and charisma and a way better voice than Johnson!
Spot on Martin. Back in Black was their high point. Bon Scott had so much energy and charisma and a way better voice than Johnson!
'Back In Black' was with Johnson on vocals, but musically I think it was the last really good one.
'High Voltage' is my favourite.
'Back In Black' was with Johnson on vocals, but musically I think it was the last really good one.
'High Voltage' is my favourite.
yes of course it was the album they came back with after Bon Scotts death. The two Young brothers were really inspired to write something memorable as a tribute and they came up with an album which is one of the best selling records of all time. I think it was No 5?
I have not been very active on my Audio Ramblings blog recently but I have been working on a new project which has been extremely time consuming.
It is certainly hifi related and hopefully it should be finished and I can share it here on Friday.:)
Wakefield Turntables
10-04-2024, 21:34
:popcorn:
brian2957
11-04-2024, 04:11
:uhho::popcorn:
:uhho::popcorn:
That is the perfect emoji mate.
Pigmy Pony
12-04-2024, 06:33
I hear you needed some help...
https://i2-prod.lancs.live/incoming/article28406736.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_JS253253929.jpg
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/crafts-in-the-barn-6529032e4cc92.jpg?resize=1200:*
Link not working Steve?
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/crafts-in-the-barn-6529032e4cc92.jpg
You may have posted in jest Steve, but The Repair Shop is one of my favourite programmes on TV. I'm always amazed by the skill and dogged determination of the restorers/repairers to do the best job they can.
My new project will definitely be posted up a little later today as the first part is now complete.
Don't make it too short James; Andrew's (Wakefield Turntables) restoration of his Garrard 301 is now running to 48 pages. ;)
Don't make it too short James; Andrew's (Wakefield Turntables) restoration of his Garrard 301 is now running to 48 pages. ;)
Don't worry Barry this one will run and run!:)
Pigmy Pony
12-04-2024, 12:31
Link not working Steve?
No. Hopefully you'll have more success with your latest project :)
No. Hopefully you'll have more success with your latest project :)
:lol:
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2024, 12:45
Don't make it too short James; Andrew's (Wakefield Turntables) restoration of his Garrard 301 is now running to 48 pages. ;)
And it's still on going! More upgrades and updates to follow :eek:.
Pigmy Pony
12-04-2024, 12:46
https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/crafts-in-the-barn-6529032e4cc92.jpg
You may have posted in jest Steve, but The Repair Shop is one of my favourite programmes on TV. I'm always amazed by the skill and dogged determination of the restorers/repairers to do the best job they can.
You're quite right Barry, and some of the stories are really moving. Though there was an episode recently where they 'did up' an ironing board which had no story, the previous owner had left it out for the binmen iirc.
One of my favourites was the 'mechanical' Christmas cake, how the repairer made sense of that I don't know :)
Jimbos Audio Ramblings is now on Youtube. The new channel is called Audio Ramblings.:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVHBBKwCGg
The Black Adder
12-04-2024, 13:42
Hi James, thats cool.... I like it.
Informative too... I've often wondered about trying Ortofon Black, it seems to be a good all rounder cart. I've always been a fan of Ortofon.
Hi James, thats cool.... I like it.
Informative too... I've often wondered about trying Ortofon Black, it seems to be a good all rounder cart. I've always been a fan of Ortofon.
Thanks Josie. It really was a trial video to get my Youtube channel set up. I have been working on others which I will upload over the next few weeks and months.
brian2957
12-04-2024, 15:44
Really enjoyed this mate. well done :)
Really enjoyed this mate. well done :)
Cheers Brian.
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2024, 17:25
Well done! Nice video. Enjoyable, also good see the old M55E war horse!
Great video James, nicely done, very informative and (even) entertaining. :)
More please.
Great video James, nicely done, very informative and (even) entertaining. :)
More please.
Thanks Gary, lots more in the pipeline :)
Well done! Nice video. Enjoyable, also good see the old M55E war horse!
Thanks Andy.
Subscribed, liked and waiting for more .....
Subscribed, liked and waiting for more .....
:thumbsup:
More Rambling....bigger tub of popcorn required this week?:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nqePiF9Vw
brian2957
19-04-2024, 15:35
Another great video mate. Makes me wish I hadn't sold my GL75 :)
Another great video mate. Makes me wish I hadn't sold my GL75 :)
They are very nice machines and sound great as you know. :)
Wakefield Turntables
19-04-2024, 16:56
Nice well done mate!
Nice well done mate!
:thumbsup:
Good video James. Well done, but why no mention of the vertical idler wheel, its wear and possible replacement?
Good video James. Well done, but why no mention of the vertical idler wheel, its wear and possible replacement?
Thanks and good point Barry. I might have to make a part 2!:).
brian2957
19-04-2024, 17:43
:popcorn:
Wakefield Turntables
19-04-2024, 17:46
:popcorn:
Hah! Yes +1
Need to schedule that in.:)
Lots going on at the moment and hope to get to hear some monumental speakers soon and maybe some other interesting gear so will pop something up when I have more to say. I have stopped messing around with the system for the time being - difficult to improve anything really unless I spend a ton of cash and I have other projects I am ear marking that for.
YouTube filming ongoing and just editing next video currently so hope to pop something up next week.
Wakefield Turntables
04-05-2024, 12:25
Jim. Just a quick ‘Un. I’ve been using the JICO n44-7 SAS/B on the m55e and it’s a cracker. JICO also do ruby and sapphire variants should your wallet be sufficiently stuffed with some of the folding stuff! ��
Jim. Just a quick ‘Un. I’ve been using the JICO n44-7 SAS/B on the m55e and it’s a cracker. JICO also do ruby and sapphire variants should your wallet be sufficiently stuffed with some of the folding stuff! ��
That sure is a temptation and is on my radar since Jico mentioned that you could use the N44-7 in the M55e. Maybe that why they don't manufacture a M55e SAS anymore?
Wakefield Turntables
04-05-2024, 16:22
That sure is a temptation and is on my radar since Jico mentioned that you could use the N44-7 in the M55e. Maybe that why they don't manufacture a M55e SAS anymore?
Makes sense, I've had the SAS/S before, never a SAS/R. The Boron is very good, I've had no urge to listen to my Silver Meister SPU II which cost many times more!
Makes sense, I've had the SAS/S before, never a SAS/R. The Boron is very good, I've had no urge to listen to my Silver Meister SPU II which cost many times more!
Must be very good indeed!
https://youtu.be/m-rtpCSgSpk
brian2957
10-05-2024, 11:42
Well done mate. Another great review :)
Wakefield Turntables
10-05-2024, 18:01
Very very good, getting better every review!
Very very good, getting better every review!
Thanks Andy, you do tend to learn stuff along the way and hopefully get better? My YouTube interest is really a retirement hobby to keep the brain active as there are so many skills to learn and perfect. For me it is all about the journey and not the destination. I enjoy making them and with better equipment I hope I can do a better job. Studying most YouTubers this is the path they have trodden.
I have a huge variety of stuff to film and hopefully one day and with an AI make over I might even appear myself!?:lol:
Great video there James, looks like a bit of a bargain and then some!
Great video there James, looks like a bit of a bargain and then some!
It is certainly great value for money!:)
Have to confess I didn't watch your previous two as - well, it's turntable stuff. But this one was really good - no rambling, not too long, great camera work. All the things most of the Youtube hi-fi people don't seem to be able to manage!
I am subscribed.
Have to confess I didn't watch your previous two as - well, it's turntable stuff. But this one was really good - no rambling, not too long, great camera work. All the things most of the Youtube hi-fi people don't seem to be able to manage!
I am subscribed.
Cheers Martin.
brian2957
11-05-2024, 10:42
Come on guys, a few more 'likes' and 'subscribes' to James' Youtube channel in appreciation of his excellent efforts :)
AJSki2fly
11-05-2024, 12:31
https://youtu.be/m-rtpCSgSpk
Great review James[emoji106] would be interesting if you re-visited and used it with a dedicated streamer to see how that sounded.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Come on guys, a few more 'likes' and 'subscribes' to James' Youtube channel in appreciation of his excellent efforts :)
and hit that Notification Bell (as the YouTube kids like to say…)
Great review James[emoji106] would be interesting if you re-visited and used it with a dedicated streamer to see how that sounded.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ah, that is one thing I haven't got round too yet.
Wakefield Turntables
12-05-2024, 18:07
There we are Jim lad. I subscribed.
There we are Jim lad. I subscribed.
:thumbsup:
More ramblings...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So6IUCt5KO4
Wakefield Turntables
07-06-2024, 12:33
I will save this for tonight
brian2957
07-06-2024, 15:45
Good video again James. Interesting use of materials :)
Good video again James. Interesting use of materials :)
Yes works for me. Strange combo for sure but does the trick. Compact laminate is strange stuff as it contains many constrained layers of material.
Great video James, your getting good at this!
Good observations on vibration control,
Been in that space myself of late and found myself nodding my head a lot of the time watching your video.
Great video James, your getting good at this!
Good observations on vibration control,
Been in that space myself of late and found myself nodding my head a lot of the time watching your video.
Cheers Gary, sometimes easier to show it in a video than describing it but the proof of the pudding is in the listening.
Sometimes you have to take a look at strange combinations and just see if they work and this combo definitely does with my TT. Every step I have taken in vibration control has unveiled great benefits in the listening experience and this is especially the case for turntables as you know.:)
100%
Similar stuff works for digital too.
Everything matters.
Look forward to your next upload!
Cheers Gary, sometimes easier to show it in a video than describing it but the proof of the pudding is in the listening.
Sometimes you have to take a look at strange combinations and just see if they work and this combo definitely does with my TT. Every step I have taken in vibration control has unveiled great benefits in the listening experience and this is especially the case for turntables as you know.:)
100%
Similar stuff works for digital too.
Everything matters.
Look forward to your next upload!
Working on the next one currently - it will be an Ancient meets modern mash up!:)
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EsQ-R6Lv8Sw/maxresdefault.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSEYlm01POETDRAxxoJxlE363YB6VucS VFAlw&s (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEs Q-R6Lv8Sw&psig=AOvVaw2e7eh7X0o75X_347z3U5Oa&ust=1717879166555000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBAQjRxqFwoTCPDTseCsyoYDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE)
The ramblings continue ... Ancient meets modern.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9m31UX-_zk
Wakefield Turntables
21-06-2024, 17:50
One for tonight Jim when the bairn's in bed. ;)
One for tonight Jim when the bairn's in bed. ;)
:thumbsup:
brian2957
21-06-2024, 18:20
Great vid again James. That Meridian CD player looks like a lovely bit of kit. Interesting that the SMSL SU-1 only marginally improves on the Philips chip when used as a transport. TBH the Meridian seems to be quite rare these days and they seem to hold their price on Ebay, testament to the quality of what was an expensive piece of kit back in the day :)
Great vid again James. That Meridian CD player looks like a lovely bit of kit. Interesting that the SMSL SU-1 only marginally improves on the Philips chip when used as a transport. TBH the Meridian seems to be quite rare these days and hold their price on Ebay, testament to the quality of what was an expensive piece of kit :)
I was amazed at the performance of the Meridian 206. Who would have thought that an ancient CD player could sound so good?
Wakefield Turntables
21-06-2024, 18:36
Jim, are you going down the route of vintage silver disc spinners?
I was amazed at the performance of the Meridian 206. Who would have thought that an ancient CD player could sound so good?
Me.
I've got a copy of 'Hi-Fi Review' from 1990 that has a review of the 206.
Impossibly expensive high end to me back then. I'd bought the mag so I had something to read in the DHSS while they sorted out my claim :)
There's one on eBay right now on a £350 BIN if anyone fancies a punt on one.
Another good video, James.
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