The purpose of a cable.

[Alex_UK]

Great post, Barry. I'm more in the sceptical camp with interconnects - as long as good quality wire, connectors and construction are present, I struggle to grade them appropriately, but probably my system is not good enough to reveal the differences.

Having said all that, having just tried some of the "off the reel" Belkin speaker cable, the difference compared to my current Belden/Mark Grant was immediately obvious to my cloth-ears, and IMHO not a good difference!

[Marco]

Like others have said, Barry, great post, and thanks for taking the time to write it. Perhaps it should be referenced in The Library?

Ok, I'd just like to tackle this:

Now as most members might know I am a cable sceptic and possibly a member of that most despised of groups: objectivists.

Obviously AoS is very much a subjectivist site, and those values form a core part of Our Ethos.

Although we understand the important and influential role science has in audio, we also know that it isn't the 'be all and end all'. There is still so much more to learn that science can't currently fully explain, and so ultimately the final arbiter is our ears.

However, I'd like to state quite categorically that on AoS we do not despise 'objectivists'. At least not the non-cynical ones!

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being an 'objectivist', providing that you're not cynical or dogmatic about it, and have the humility to respect opposing views, without the need to demean or ridicule the valid subjective experiences of others. We only 'poke' the bad guys.

There's also bugger all wrong with being a sceptic - scepticism is healthy!!

Barry, if you consider yourself as an 'objectivist', then you're a fabulous advert for the breed, as you're always open-minded, pragmatic, never dogmatic or cynical, knowledgeable and always willing to learn something new and acknowledge when someone else has greater expertise than you in certain areas.

I think that you simply remain true to your scientific background and teachings, and so epitomise the values of real scientists - people who deserve great respect, and not the pseudo types and technical 'jobsworths' who infect other forums with their blinkered bile and agendas.

As such, it's a pleasure to have you as part of our community - and never less than a delight to read your contributions. If only all 'objectivists' were like you mate, then the on-line audio community would be a far better place....

Let's hear it folks for Barry - a most respected and valued member of AoS!

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

Let's hear it folks for Barry - a most respected and valued member of AoS!

Marco.

I think you'd call it realism, maybe i'm wrong, but the gap between objectivist & subjectivist must be a little more "planted"

Oh, in the real world i mean

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

First of all, I don’t believe cables have any intrinsic sound of their own. If changes in sound are perceived, then this is entirely down to how the cable interacts with the equipment between which it connects, and how well it screens or shields the delicate musical signals, with all the subtle information contain within them, from corruption by external electrical interference (from whatever source). Even having accepted that the interaction can have acoustic effects, unless your system is quite unusual, these effects will be small. Lets examine this in more detail.

One can quite reasonably say that any audio cable can be characterised by LCR measurements (pace Frank). That is, the construction and quality of the materials used will be effectively summarised by these measurements. The resistance of the conductors used and that of the insulation used as well as any dielectric loss will be represented by R. Likewise the geometry of the interconnect will represented by both L and C. Shielding efficacy is a little more difficult to quantify and depends on both the construction of the shield and of the material from which it is made. Strictly speaking it is quantified by a parameter called the surface transfer impedance that can be both calculated and measured. Measurements at the interfering frequencies expected (those radiated by switched-mode power supplies as well as AM broadcasts), are almost impossible to make owing to the long wavelengths involved, but I will come to this later.

Simply considering the LCR values, for virtually all cables these are sufficiently good so that unless the interconnect is made of the most peculiar of materials or has a strange geometry, or it is used in an unusual system, there should be virtually no difference between sensibly designed interconnects. I’ll provide a few illustrative figures.

OK, so we’ve got the LCRs out of the way,

I produce 3 interconnect cables that measure identically according to the makers of the raw cable. They all sound different and progressively musically better, and I can prove it to anyone who wishes to hear it.

[Barry]

Like others have said, Barry, great post, and thanks for taking the time to write it. Perhaps it should be referenced in The Library?

Ok, I'd just like to tackle this:



Obviously AoS is very much a subjectivist site, and those values form a core part of Our Ethos.

Although we understand the important and influential role science has in audio, we also know that it isn't the 'be all and end all'. There is still so much more to learn that science can't currently fully explain, and so ultimately the final arbiter is our ears.

However, I'd like to state quite categorically that on AoS we do not despise 'objectivists'. At least not the non-cynical ones!

There's nothing wrong whatsoever with being an 'objectivist', providing that you're not cynical or dogmatic about it, and have the humility to respect opposing views, without the need to demean or ridicule the valid subjective experiences of others. We only 'poke' the bad guys.

There's also bugger all wrong with being a sceptic - scepticism is healthy!!

Barry, if you consider yourself as an 'objectivist', then you're a fabulous advert for the breed, as you're always open-minded, pragmatic, never dogmatic or cynical, knowledgeable and always willing to learn something new and acknowledge when someone else has greater expertise than you in certain areas.

I think that you simply remain true to your scientific background and teachings, and so epitomise the values of real scientists - people who deserve great respect, and not the pseudo types and technical 'jobsworths' who infect other forums with their blinkered bile.

As such it's a pleasure to have you as part of our community, and never less than a delight to read your contributions. If only all 'objectivists' were like you mate, then the on-line audio community would be a far better place....

Let's hear it folks for Barry - a most respected and valued member of AoS!

Marco.

Thank you Marco, and others, for your kind comments. Shucks, I'm

Even though I tried to be as objective and factual as possible, it is still my opinion and therefore not really suitable for the Library, well not according to my own very rigorous acceptance criterion as a Librarian. Perhaps later I'll rewrite it and offer it for proof reading by my fellow Librarians.

I might have also appeared to be unduly self deprecating in that, to my great surprise, I found during a blind testing session, I could repeatable and reliably hear differences between some interconnects. Again to my surprise and embarrassment, not only could I hear differences but along with other auditors, I preferred my own cables! But I must say the differences were not major.

One of the bête noirs I have is the obscene prices some interconnect manufactures ask for their wares and the scientific (and irrelevant) 'technobabble' they use to persuade the innocent that they know what they're talking about so as to justify the costs. (Hand on "heart" you know who I'm talking about. ) For this reason, and because I resent paying a lot for something I can make, I have always preferred to assemble my own interconnects.

Now some have neither the inclination nor perhaps the skills to make their own cables and have to buy them. Clearly it takes time to carefully prepare and assemble an interconnect: I find it takes me about half an hour per cable from start to finish. I don't know what the typical time rate is but let's say I spend £50 on materials (the majority of which will be for the connectors) and at £50/hour, a stereo pair of interconnects ought to cost not much more than say £120.

It must be said that are some very well respected cable manufacturers who offer quality products at reasonable prices (and we all know who they are ), but interconnect manufacture is becoming, to the detriment of these honest practitioners, an easy avenue by which to "make money for old rope".

Rant over (for the time being)

Regards

[Barry]

I produce 3 interconnect cables that measure identically according to the makers of the raw cable. They all sound different and progressively musically better, and I can prove it to anyone who wishes to hear it.

Hello Richard,

At no time did I say that audible difference cannot be heard, rather that such difference will be small and down to how the interconnect interacts with the equipment between which it connects.

One of the problems is gleaning sufficient electrical information about a cable from the manufacturer. They are all remarkably laconic in this regard.

Do your cables use the same quality connector on each of the three varieties? Are they wired in the same configuration? Is the shielding/screening/braiding the same for each cable? Any deviation can cause a change of quality.

I'm going to be off-line for the next week. This is is not a 'brush off'. Perhaps we can resume the discussion upon my return?

Regards

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I have also designed the interfaces that the cables are connected to. So they are all interacting with the same circuit and the differences are not small.

The problem is that some equipment resolves differences more than others, if yours doesn't then you don't hear it. IMO that is the root behind a most of these arguments.

Anyway I have yet to fail to show the differences to anyone blind or not, though I wont get involved in the contorted bollocks of double blind.

Within acceptable parameters connectors of the same type are of little importance, there is a lot of bullshit about some of the ridiculously expensive plugs. It is the cable that makes the sound of a cable. Now different types of connector fine yes they do make a difference. Din is a disaster, RCA phono is acceptable, XLR is good but too bulky for home audio and unnecessarily robust, BNC is very good but a bit bulky, SMA is by far the best in size strength and security of contact and sound yet next to no one has heard of them.

They have to be measured correctly because they are built to US military RG regulations. And they are sub groups used for wiring radar heads and data transmission in US military aircraft.