Vantage Audio Technics SL-1210 PCB upgrade & PSU

I have posted elsewhere on AoS my very favourable impressions of the VA bearing and platter upgrades for my SL-1210. I was thus very much looking forward to hearing how the PCB upgrade and bespoke PSU sounded. I was not disappointed. Doubly so since Richard and his son very kindly dropped in yesterday to install everything for me. Not because it isn't suitable for an owner upgrade but because that's the sort of customer service VA give :)

The PCB upgrade consists of replacing all the capacitors with modern tight spec versions and "re-working" the earth tracks on the underside of the board. The PSU is a sizeable box with a high quality flying DC lead with lockable 2.5mm plug and integral sensor. The lead plugs into a chassis socket in a bespoke plate that replaces the stock metal cable exit plate. The plate also carries a 4mm chassis socket connected to the PCB earth for optional connection to the preamp earth binding post.

We listened to a few tracks with the stock PCB and my TimeStep PSU and then while I looked the other way Richard dismembered the deck and dropped in and connected up the new board and PSU. The deck fired up on first switch on :thumbsup:

There was an instant and definite improvement (not just a difference). Bass was better defined and went down lower (actually "felt" some of the kick drum as opposed to just hearing it) and was tighter controlled but the biggest difference was with timing - notes started and particularly stopped with better definition - particularly noticeable with percussion where "double drum taps" became obvious whereas before it just sounded like a single stroke. This translated into better dynamics and range. Soundstage tightened up with much better focus of instruments and voices in space.

Reading back through my previous posts on the VA bearing and platter upgrades I note my comments are very similar so it seems the VA "philosophy" is step-wise process to improve platter rotation control and thereby improve information retrieval and timing.

IMHO Vantage Audio offer a very cost-effective upgrade path for the SL-1210 which delivers tangible improvements in sonic quality and musical enjoyment and superlative customer service.

Steve

Hi Steve

It looks like i may well be following your upgrade path :) Richard is visiting tommorow and weds for a listening sesh with the Black Beast" then fitting the platter .

But i just have to have a quick rant , Dave Cawley has stated over on his "Forum" that Richard like himself has an agenda ? Now some honesty from Dave is most welcome , but Richard having an agenda , well he's going to quite a bit of bother to help me out and i actually don't sense any hidden agenda at all ! Just a very helpful and genuine bloke who takes a bit of care to get it right .

I've just had a great idea where to put my Timestep psu when the time comes , but i must refrain.

Anyway rant over , well done Steve , pleased its working nicely for you :)

I spoke to Richard a while back Chris and he told me to take out the psu from the technics and put it in a external case which he assured me would improve the sound.
It wasnt until i got of the phone i realized the guy didnt try to sell me anything and gave me a free tip! Where as certain other individual on the phone told me get rid of my achromat as it was rubbish and buy his mat. Tell me who has the agenda?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colinB

I spoke to Richard a while back Chris and he told me to take out the psu from the technics and put it in a external case which he assured me would improve the sound.
It wasnt until i got of the phone i realized the guy didnt try to sell me anything and gave me a free tip! Where as certain other individual on the phone told me get rid of my achromat as it was rubbish and buy his mat. Tell me who has the agenda?

---

Hi Colin

Yes indeed ! I tried to remain calm when i read it , but i'm now in my local supping a nice pint and trying not to get wound up , anyway like i said I'm so pleased for Steve:)

:worthless:


...and maybe some technical evidence to back up the subjective impressions :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

:worthless:


...and maybe some technical evidence to back up the subjective impressions :)

---

Well it is subjective Dave , not sure what any technical stats would prove ? Linn have managed well enough without it ?

If Steve is very happy with these upgrades , then so what , are you looking to have a dig , perhaps your in cahoots with the prime minister of tech mr Cawley .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

:worthless:


...and maybe some technical evidence to back up the subjective impressions :)

---

From your lips to God's ear Dave :)

I did the post at work sans piccies so here we go now am back at home. Richard requested that the images of the underside of the board were a little out of focus so as to minimise plagiarism which given earlier posts is fully understandable I think.

Now the technical data I am going to struggle with I'm afraid but I'm sure Richard would oblige.

Steve

I think its interesting that in the last few years various psu`s for the technics have appeared, (the earliest ones i saw mentioned were the American Kabs and Blue circle models) but this guy has had a solution to the problem for a long time and nobody heard of him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colinB

but this guy has had a solution to the problem for a long time and nobody heard of him.

---

:exactly:

He avoids forums (including AoS) has little time for over-priced ear candy and it's devotees and just makes good kit at a very reasonable price. Was an avionics engineer by trade apparently. With the stuff I bought off him he could so easily have plugged the whole 9 yards from day 1 but wouldn't even tell me what upgrades were available never mind flog them to me until I'd installed and evaluated the previous bits.

Steve

Good to know some people are making a honest living in this world of sharks!
There is one psu out there that will set you back £450 but you have to pay an extra £200 for a decent transformer to replace the standard wall wart it comes with.
Im sorry but thats just wrong. Most people ( like me ) buy a technics because they dont have a lot of cash and dont really want to pay £ 650 to fix a weakness in their machine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chris@panteg

Well it is subjective Dave , not sure what any technical stats would prove ? Linn have managed well enough without it ?

If Steve is very happy with these upgrades , then so what , are you looking to have a dig , perhaps your in cahoots with the prime minister of tech mr Cawley .

---

Not at all, and he'd be the first to admit it ;)

Linn actually had their LP12 measured on many occasions and the wow figures and modest slowing under load were published for all to see. The choice of felt mat was often discussed too, as well as a typical Colloms "hint" that the slightly brash Ittok was a perfect match to the old "Fruitbox" at the time :)

It's just that there are many "me too" Techie upgrades available now, and surely there must be proper valid reasons for why they supposedly outperform the standard article. To DC's credit, he's provided reasoned arguments as to what his mods do, and I suspect the PH supplies really begin to make sense if the bearing and platter are so substantially changed by the drastically increased mass of the spinning platter that a significantly uprated supply is needed.

Now there's another UK suplier of Techie tweaks. Nowt at all wrong with that, but a purely subjective opinion is worthless to all but the person making the judgement IMO. I'm not having a go, but if so&so likes it, then so what? In what way is the deck altered, how does the new external supply compare with "just" taking the existing transformer out of the box and re-casing it? This new supply costs money. Surely (!) you wouldn't lash out hundreds of pounds on just an opinion, would you? Ooooops, I think most of us have done just that and lived to tell the tales :D

I'm really not having a go, but if a product is to stand or fall, "just" a personal opinion ain't enough IMO. OK, "Art of Sound" and all that, but I've done enough tweaks in the past to various audio items which have altered the basic recipe, but not actually taken the design forward, that's all. Forgive my seeming to be negative, I'm not, honest guv :)

I think the principle behind a stronger psu and an external one is simple isnt it?
The transformer is removed from the platter to eliminate vibration and beefier caps are fitted to cope with the high load demands. How that is executed might very from one engineer to another but a good subjective test would be to compare one psu to another and choose which one does the job best. End of story.:ner:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by colinB

I think the principle behind a stronger psu and an external one is simple isnt it?
The transformer is removed from the platter to eliminate vibration and beefier caps are fitted to cope with the high load demands. How that is executed might very from one engineer to another but a good subjective test would be to compare one psu to another and choose which one does the job best. End of story.:ner:

---

If only it was that simple! There have been rumblings about trying and comparing different power supplies for the last year and nothing has been done yet. :doh:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DSJR

Not at all, and he'd be the first to admit it ;)

Linn actually had their LP12 measured on many occasions and the wow figures and modest slowing under load were published for all to see. The choice of felt mat was often discussed too, as well as a typical Colloms "hint" that the slightly brash Ittok was a perfect match to the old "Fruitbox" at the time :)

It's just that there are many "me too" Techie upgrades available now, and surely there must be proper valid reasons for why they supposedly outperform the standard article. To DC's credit, he's provided reasoned arguments as to what his mods do, and I suspect the PH supplies really begin to make sense if the bearing and platter are so substantially changed by the drastically increased mass of the spinning platter that a significantly uprated supply is needed.

Now there's another UK suplier of Techie tweaks. Nowt at all wrong with that, but a purely subjective opinion is worthless to all but the person making the judgement IMO. I'm not having a go, but if so&so likes it, then so what? In what way is the deck altered, how does the new external supply compare with "just" taking the existing transformer out of the box and re-casing it? This new supply costs money. Surely (!) you wouldn't lash out hundreds of pounds on just an opinion, would you? Ooooops, I think most of us have done just that and lived to tell the tales :D

I'm really not having a go, but if a product is to stand or fall, "just" a personal opinion ain't enough IMO. OK, "Art of Sound" and all that, but I've done enough tweaks in the past to various audio items which have altered the basic recipe, but not actually taken the design forward, that's all. Forgive my seeming to be negative, I'm not, honest guv :)

---

No i quite agree , i shouldn't go by someone's opinion ? Though unfortunately and maybe to my cost i have done in the past ;) But that's my problem :) but i think the key point to make is that Richard is prepared to put his money where his mouth is and if I'm not satisfied , i can return the upgrade !

I will ask him tomorrow if perhaps he could provide some technical explanation or set of results , though i have a feeling he might say that their meaningless , dunno though .

Just put a test disc on, measure the speed and do an FM demodulation so you can see the spread. Then you'll know if the various power supplies 'improve' the 1210 or just alter it. Nothing wrong with 'tuning' your deck if that's what you want, I'm not interested in anyone else's idea of good sound, just my own.

DSJR,

The SR5-21 is not just for use with the high mass platter upgrades. It works very well on the standard platter versions too.

Paul

Thank you Paul and fellas :peace:

Dave,

I was not criticising, just clarifying. There is a lot more to the SL1200 power supply system than just the mass of the platter.

Regards
Paul

It is not just DDs which improve with a better PSU.

A real eye opener to me was years ago when my original Alphason Sonata was up graded by adding the later Hercules PSU (the one all the other manufactures copied!!!:stalks:). The difference was astounding, I just could not believe it.

Mike Knowles knew his stuff, and funnily enough as with his one piece tonearm, others copied immediately after.

I've known Richard VA) for years. He had the PSU upgrades before the Dartmouth operation had even discovered DDs, along with many other upgrades including EMT cartridges etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sq225917

Just put a test disc on, measure the speed and do an FM demodulation so you can see the spread. Then you'll know if the various power supplies 'improve' the 1210 or just alter it.

---

Or alternatively, pour a nice glass of wine, sit back and spin some of your favourite tunes, trust your senses and let your ears tell you whether the new PSU makes a genuine improvement or not (my method) ;)

F*ck the 'test disc'.... I'd demonstrate to anyone, in a relevant comparison, how good the Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU is that I use with my Techy. The stock PSU is but a toy in comparison. The SR5 annihilates it - and trust me, I *know* from experience what I'm talking about.

Quote:

---

Nothing wrong with 'tuning' your deck if that's what you want, I'm not interested in anyone else's idea of good sound, just my own.

---

Same here, but it doesn't hurt to relate your experiences to others in the hope that it may be of use them, such is the purpose of forums like this....

No doubt the Vantage Audio upgrades are excellent - I trust Richard's expertise, even though I've not used one of his products. Sometimes you just have a gut feeling when someone knows what they're doing. I'll go with that before I'll take any notice of what is freakin' 'test disc' tells me.

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Or alternatively, pour a nice glass of wine, sit back and spin some of your favourite tunes, trust your senses and let your ears tell you whether the new PSU makes a genuine improvement or not (my method) ;)

F*ck the 'test disc'.... I'd demonstrate to anyone, in a relevant comparison, how good the Paul Hynes SR5-21 PSU is that I use with my Techy. The stock PSU is but a toy in comparison. The SR5 annihilates it - and trust me, I *know* what I'm talking about.



Same here, but it doesn't hurt to relate your experiences to others in the hope that it may be of use them, such is the purpose of forums like this....

No doubt the Vantage Audio upgrades are excellent - I trust Richard's expertise, even though I've not used one of his products. Sometimes you just have a gut feeling when someone knows what they're doing. I'll go with that before I'll take any notice of what is freakin' 'test disc' tells me.

Marco.

---

Marco - good job getting this thread back on track - I'd begun to think I accidentally posted my totally subjective aural findings on a HiFi news site given all the brouhahas about test data and the like :lolsign:

Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by worrasf

Marco - good job getting this thread back on track - I'd begun to think I accidentally posted my totally subjective aural findings on a HiFi news site given all the brouhahas about test data and the like :lolsign:

---

Indeed, particularly as this is a staunchly SUBJECTIVIST site, so let's put the white lab coats in the bin where they belong! :laser:

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

F*ck the 'test disc'.....

---

With respect, Marco, unless you actually check that the improvement has actually made an improvement, all you can be sure of is that you're listening to a "difference you happen to like" rather than an improvement!

Just to clarify, I have no doubt that all (well, most anyway...;)) of these improved PSU arrangements do definitely improve the performance of the SL1200, it just never hurts to be completely sure.

Hi Adam,

On forums, I don't make indisputable 'factual' statements; I merely express my subjective opinion, based on the results I hear, and report my experiences to others accordingly for their consideration.

Therefore, I usually find my ears plenty good enough as an arbiter for that, without the need for 'test discs'.

The (superb) system I've assembled over many years is thus so with no 'test disc', or measurement apparatus, having ever graced it. The cumulative sonic signature of the assembled components in my system has been tuned solely by ear - and that state of affairs will remain so.

Do you honestly think that I'd bin using the Paul Hynes PSU for my T/T, when I've heard it clearly and indisputably transform my T/T's performance, during the time I've been using it (and discount all that I've genuinely heard in that respect), just because the results of a 'test disc' perhaps said otherwise? :mental: ;)

Marco.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beobloke

With respect, Marco, unless you actually check that the improvement has actually made an improvement, all you can be sure of is that you're listening to a "difference you happen to like" rather than an improvement!

---

How can a difference you happen to like not be an improvement. To say that is bonkers IMO, as all we are (or should be) looking for *individually* is improvement.

Quote:

---

How can a difference you happen to like not be an improvement.

---

Exactly. If it sounds better, to my ears, then it *is* better, to my ears - simples! :)

And the same applies in that situation to anyone else with faith in their human senses.

Marco.

While I'm generally in agreement with this entirely subjective approach, it is handy when something is obviously amiss (such as with those early 1210 needledrops) to be able to look at why there might be a problem. At least in that case the limiting was visible (on the traces) as well as audible. A good job, otherwise there may have been some who continued to assert that they were fine when they clearly weren't.

I think that if the means are there to explain phenomena they should, if possible, be made use of. That said, I'm not yet convinced that there is yet a reliable way of really closely examining speed constancy, dynamic slowing, even rumble/noise at very low levels. Much of the reason for this is in the fact that adequately quiet & accurately pressed test discs don't seem to be readily available. It's therefore difficult to express subjective improvements in these areas in terms of numbers.

With regard to Adam's comment about improvements, there are times when an improvement might be heard but only on some recordings. The SPU I've been experimenting with recently does some very nice things with some recordings but can sound very wrong with others. An improvement or just a change? I like it when its working well but not when it isn't!

Hi Guy,

I've no problem with any of that.

Thing is, I didn't need the waveforms to tell me that the needle-drops I'd done of my Techy were recorded too loudly. I could clearly hear it afterwards when playing them back (it wasn't me who was monitoring the recordings).

The 'objective proof', therefore, merely confirmed what my ears had already told me.

I'm afraid that, whilst what you say is applicable in some circumstances, I don't need a 'test disc' (which can merely test what it's been designed for, no more) to tell me conclusively what a power supply is doing, sonically (or not) to my T/T, in a system that I know inside out ;)

YMMV.

Marco.

No you would not have done, playing them back on your home system. But there were a few posters here whose subjective opinion was that they were good needledrops. I did find that a bit puzzling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dr Bunsen Honeydew

How can a difference you happen to like not be an improvement. To say that is bonkers IMO, as all we are (or should be) looking for *individually* is improvement.

---

Because in that case, it is an improvement to the sound of your system, and NOT an improvement to the design of the equipment in question - in this case, the SL1200.

That said, it is still perfectly valid in the personal context. The point I raised to Marco was that the suggested improvement to the design of the SL1200 cannot be confirmed without measuring it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beobloke

Because in that case, it is an improvement to the sound of your system, and NOT an improvement to the design of the equipment in question - in this case, the SL1200.

That said, it is still perfectly valid in the personal context. The point I raised to Marco was that the suggested improvement to the design of the SL1200 cannot be confirmed without measuring it.

---

And I put to you that it is impossible to measure it accurately, or more to the point correctly for us, as you cannot measure music or your perception of it.

IOM it is fatuous to say that test tones or test records tell you anything about the reproduction of music, they tell you about the reproduction of test tones.

There is nothing essential that any test equipment tells you that you ears cannot tell you, but their are masses of things your ears can tell you that test gear cannot. Also because the test gear is not set up in sympathy with human perception it often tells you differences that are completely (such as THD down to 3 zeros) unimportant because you can't hear it, but doesn't tell you other things that to the ears are musically just plain gross.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beobloke

Because in that case, it is an improvement to the sound of your system, and NOT an improvement to the design of the equipment in question - in this case, the SL1200.

---

:offtopic:

I've been dying to use this smilie

Seriously chaps - my post has spawned a thread that now seems to have degenerated into :argument: (sorry philosophical debate) about what we want from our systems which seems to have polarised into those of us who listen to music and the kit is just a means to make this as near to the live performance as possible in a domestic situation and those who listen to the kit and buy music to demonstrate how good their latest bit of kit is. Not a criticism of course - just a personal observation ;)

Anyway, for what it's worth the VA upgraded PCB and PSU has definitely enhanced my enjoyment of the music I have spent my hard earned dollar on.

Steve

I find it strange people don't trust their own ears The trouble with needle drops is that its music I do not know so I never boither with them and for me a test disc is just that a test disc
All my system has been built by using my ears I have never used a test disc.
The last time Howard came round he said it was one of the best systems he has heard in this country so I guess I must be doing something right.
I think measurements have thier place (and can see this in design around maintaining consitency of product etc) I am not against them but utlimatly I do not really care about how something is measured I care about how it sounds espically when I have to live with it in the context of my own system
Sorry Steve just seen your above post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by worrasf

:offtopic:

I've been dying to use this smilie

Seriously chaps - my post has spawned a thread that now seems to have degenerated into :argument:

---

You're right, Steve and my apologies. I have plenty more to say on the (off!) topic but I shall refrain from doing so here!

:spank:

Hi Guy,

Quote:

---

No you would not have done, playing them back on your home system. But there were a few posters here whose subjective opinion was that they were good needledrops. I did find that a bit puzzling.

---

I didn't, although I know exactly where you're coming from.

However, the fact that the levels were too high doesn't render the recordings *totally* broken. I guess that some people (including me) can listen through that and hear that there's a bloody good turntable (and partnering system) behind them, which I suppose is where the positive comments were coming from, particularly with the SRV track, which wasn't as saturated as the others :)

All that needs doing is the recording levels lowered, and the needle-drops will sound fab - not too difficult a job! ;)

Marco.

Hi Adam,

Quote:

---

Because in that case, it is an improvement to the sound of your system, and NOT an improvement to the design of the equipment in question - in this case, the SL1200.

---

How can you possibly say for sure? BOTH could in fact be the case!

Quote:

---

The point I raised to Marco was that the suggested improvement to the design of the SL1200 cannot be confirmed without measuring it.

---

Yes, but not everything we can genuinely hear with audio can currently be measured. And certainly, a poxy 'test disc' (with limited functionality) is not likely to act as a conclusive arbiter, anytime soon, for ALL that needs to be assessed sonically on a turntable, or the efficacy of its power supply.

The day that measurements tell the FULL story of how the human ears and brain process recorded music, via a hi-fi system, is the day I will treat what a 'test disc' tells me as conclusive! ;)

Quote:

---

I find it strange people don't trust their own ears The trouble with needle drops is that its music I do not know so I never boither with them and for me a test disc is just that a test disc
All my system has been built by using my ears I have never used a test disc.

---

Me neither, John, and none of my friends who've been into hi-fi and music for the same length of time as me, have either. I find it distinctly weird that some people need to test the buggery out of everything before they'll believe that it exists :scratch:

The only man-made measurement apparatus I'll likely ever use with my hi-fi system is a stylus pressure gauge and an alignment protractor - they're all I need!!

Anyway, folks, let's get back on-topic now, as this is supposed to be Steve's thread about his Vantage Audio upgrades - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

I would like to see scope tests on a psu just to see how it eliminates the ripple on the output voltage in comparison to the old one. It would be interesting. But if a new psu is an improvement on the old one the simple test is the noise floor will drop and it will become more pleasant to listen to.

Guys , i asked Richard tonight about providing test results for his bearing and psu , and he would be happy to do so ! In fact its intregal to his approach , it was a fascinating and enjoyable evening listening to a very nice SL10 , my good friend John came round and its got him hooked all over again , as a Voyd man he was very impressed with both my QL1 and Richard's hot rodded SL10 .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Yes, but not everything we can genuinely hear with audio can currently be measured. And certainly, a poxy 'test disc' (with limited functionality) is not likely to act as a conclusive arbiter, anytime soon, for ALL that needs to be assessed sonically on a turntable, or the efficacy of its power supply.

The day that measurements tell the FULL story of how the human ears and brain process recorded music, via a hi-fi system, is the day I will treat what a 'test disc' tells me as conclusive! ;)

Me neither, John, and none of my friends who've been into hi-fi and music for the same length of time as me, have either. I find it distinctly weird that some people need to test the buggery out of everything before they'll believe that it exists :scratch:

The only man-made measurement apparatus I'll likely ever use with my hi-fi system is a stylus pressure gauge and an alignment protractor - they're all I need!!


Marco.

---

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)

Sorry, couldn't resist...but it does seem to fit with the above! ;)

Cheers,

Its time to update this thread i feel , i now have no psu for my 1210 ! The Timestep has been sold and is in the post , going to be without my 1210 for probably a couple of months , the money from the TS has actually gone towards a new kitchen (must keep the wifey happy) but no big deal i can wait , i just have to decide on what configuration of psu as Richard has sent me a large number of options ? Perhaps Stephen can offer some more thoughts on why he went for the main board mods and how he feels its made a difference .

I've roped in the SL-Q21 , its ok , and i have the lovely little QL1 downstairs, performing very nicely.

I tried an interesting test the other day. I just switched off my turntable and turned the platter with my finger and listened. Obviously there was some pitch instability but I could get a good idea of the 'character' of the deck. Next I flicked the power on and did the same again, I could keep the speed more consistent by watching the strobe but otherwise the sound quality was unchanged. Next while I was turning the platter at 33 and a 1/3 I'd press the start button and, well, nothing much changed. Better pitch stability as expected and otherwise exactly the same sound character. I'm with the people who trust their ears so I'm not asking for measurements but when can someone post some before/after PSU-mod sound files? I can post some recordings I've made of my Technics with the stock PSU and the CD release of the same track for comparison and I reckon the vinyl recordings sound better. I'm not convinced an external PSU is going to add anything but I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary.