Richard's hi-fi ranting 'Room 101'

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Originally Posted by Richard

The big squeeze is on, fun and bargains for everyone.

For those non ebay watchers who haven't noticed, the retailers are jumping on ebay to try and shift stock, and prices are plummeting. If you pay full retailer whack for something at the moment you are daft, 30% discount will become the norm as they steadily go bust.

Linn dealers are trying to offload stock, which is very interesting, as it is known the company has problems. Even some Naim dealers are panicking.

But it is trade ins and old stock that is mostly being put up and is also mostly going up with no reserve, and going prices are 50% less (equivelent) than last year I estimate.

So the process starts, I will enjoy watching it.

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Anyway we have had our fun kiddies, now back to topic.

Now we have a burgioning community of Hi-Fi - AV - DIY forums it leaves a couple of questions.

What do we need magazines and reviewers for now - we can do it ourselves. Hi-Fi masturbation, you know what Marco does to make his valve amps sticky. OK some awkward gits like Marco and me get banned from some forums but so what! everyone has a home. Who can give you the best knowledge about product - the users? the manufacturers? the retailers? or the marketers? it really is a no brainer isn't it!

Everyone in between you and the guy who designs and makes your gear is an on cost - you pay for it, and in this industry that accounts for at least a doubling of the price you pay.

Look at ebay for the changing world. It wont always stay on ebay, monopolies always out think themselves, and manufacturers websites will be good too. But we are getting near to an internet re think and re invent which I am sure will give other possibilities. Still though very few who sell through their own websites are passing the saving to you, must are still keeping a retail price the same as if it was retailed to you. I sell at ebay at 50% off the prices I would use if I went through retail or wanted to keep those margins.

Who can stop it - well you - stand up for yourself. If you want a product approach the *manufacturer* and ask to buy it, refuse to go through a retailer, demand a trade price. Most manufacturers will tell you to sod off, but so what, if they get a hundred calls like that a day and their product is not selling in the shops what do you think will happen :scratch:

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Originally Posted by Richard

Anyway we have had our fun kiddies, now back to topic.

Now we have a burgioning community of Hi-Fi - AV - DIY forums it leaves a couple of questions.

What do we need magazines and reviewers for now - we can do it ourselves. Hi-Fi masturbation, you know what Marco does to make his valve amps sticky. OK some awkward gits like Marco and me get banned from some forums but so what! everyone has a home. Who can give you the best knowledge about product - the users? the manufacturers? the retailers? or the marketers? it really is a no brainer isn't it!

Everyone in between you and the guy who designs and makes your gear is an on cost - you pay for it, and in this industry that accounts for at least a doubling of the price you pay.

Look at ebay for the changing world. It wont always stay on ebay, monopolies always out think themselves, and manufacturers websites will be good too. But we are getting near to an internet re think and re invent which I am sure will give other possibilities. Still though very few who sell through their own websites are passing the saving to you, must are still keeping a retail price the same as if it was retailed to you. I sell at ebay at 50% off the prices I would use if I went through retail or wanted to keep those margins.

Who can stop it - well you - stand up for yourself. If you want a product approach the *manufacturer* and ask to buy it, refuse to go through a retailer, demand a trade price. Most manufacturers will tell you to sod off, but so what, if they get a hundred calls like that a day and their product is not selling in the shops what do you think will happen :scratch:

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richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)

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Originally Posted by anthonyTD

richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)

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No matter what Marx (not Groucho sadly) said revolutions do not happen in a day. Old think dominates, new ideas take time to propogate, some people are more open to change than others.

Community potentially can provide everything you need and take over from the on cost slurpers. I recommend all here to join Wigwam (even though I am banned, which some might say will be a relief) if not a member and look at the bake-off and meetings forum and threads. Users listening to each others kit, borrowing, selling to each other surplus gear, and a lot more of it is happening one to one and not being talked about there.

Come on Marco and other admins start a Bake-off sub forum and establish who is near to each other and encourage meetings and listening evenings. I have said before and will say again if any genuine bake-off wants an NVA product to listen to, what ever it is, if I have it spare you can borrow it for the event.

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Originally Posted by Richard

No matter what Marx (not Groucho sadly) said revolutions do not happen in a day. Old think dominates, new ideas take time to propogate, some people are more open to change than others.

Community potentially can provide everything you need and take over from the on cost slurpers. I recommend all here to join Wigwam (even though I am banned, which some might say will be a relief) if not a member and look at the bake-off and meetings forum and threads. Users listening to each others kit, borrowing, selling to each other surplus gear, and a lot more of it is happening one to one and not being talked about there.

Come on Marco and other admins start a Bake-off sub forum and establish who is near to each other and encourage meetings and listening evenings. I have said before and will say again if any genuine bake-off wants an NVA product to listen to, what ever it is, if I have it spare you can borrow it for the event.

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richard,
i think thats a good idea... i used to be a part of a company that had [has ?]a big influence over what some reviewers and dealers would promote and sell, i never felt comfortable in that inviroment, or the person i was in business with for that matter [but thats a diffrent story] eventually i had to make a decision, i got out! i knew from that moment on that what i had decided to do was not likely to make me a millionaire, but it was never all about the money for me anyway, [although i do apriciate it] now, i do pretty much what i like, i take on work that i want to do, and i promote genuinely good products of my own creation and others. i have found that people with any sense will see through all the crap that was related to the type of products and people i used to be involved with, and once you have enlightend them and demonstrated what small bespoke manufactures are capable of, they stick with you, and learn to trust you, that is just as satisfying to me as the money aspect of it....;)

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Originally Posted by anthonyTD

richard,
i think thats a good idea... i used to be a part of a company that had [has ?]a big influence over what some reviewers and dealers would promote and sell, i never felt comfortable in that inviroment, or the person i was in business with for that matter [but thats a diffrent story] eventually i had to make a decision, i got out! i knew from that moment on that what i had decided to do was not likely to make me a millionaire, but it was never all about the money for me anyway, [although i do apriciate it] now, i do pretty much what i like, i take on work that i want to do, and i promote genuinely good products of my own creation and others. i have found that people with any sense will see through all the crap that was related to the type of products and people i used to be involved with, and once you have enlightend them and demonstrated what small bespoke manufactures are capable of, they stick with you, and learn to trust you, that is just as satisfying to me as the money aspect of it....;)

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Imagine a world where all the techys throw off the shackles of the accountants and money men, the marketing men, the reviewers, the magazine editors and advertising depts and finally the retailers, and joined forums with you lot. And everyone automatically looked at the net for information and community to find where like product was being used and had friends to learn from instead of vultures circling around their wallets. Most techys are banned from forums by the companies they work for in case they mess up the company line in bullshit or show up the marketing men for what they are with some real information for a change.

I am beginning to sound like John Lennon and "imagine" :)

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Originally Posted by Richard

Imagine a world where all the techys throw off the shackles of the accountants and money men, the marketing men, the reviewers, the magazine editors and advertising depts and finally the retailers, and joined forums with you lot. And everyone automatically looked at the net for information and community to find where like product was being used and had friends to learn from instead of vultures circling around their wallets. Most techys are banned from forums by the companies they work for in case they mess up the company line in bullshit or show up the marketing men for what they are with some real information for a change.

I am beginning to sound like John Lennon and "imagine" :)

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imagine that!
ohh there i go as well, we will have to be carefull they dont program someone to shoot us too!!!;):):lol:

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Originally Posted by anthonyTD

richard,
the problem [IMHO] thats holding people back from doing exactly what you have said here is, they are afraid to put their money down before some [and in most cases] know-all reviewer, or sales man has put his two penneth in and assured them that its the best thing since sliced bread, in other words they dont have enough back bone to judge things for themselves basically!!!!;):)

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Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.

I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.

Two different strands of apathy here.

One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.

The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.

Just my .02

Nick

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Originally Posted by Nick

Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.

I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.

Two different strands of apathy here.

One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.

The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.

Just my .02

Nick

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If you want to do something then do it. If it was in Europe how far was it to go to get a dem and make a purchase. £10k is a lot of money to worry about a trip to Europe to listen, and have a break and a look around. British are just sooooo parochial.

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Originally Posted by Richard

If you want to do something then do it. If it was in Europe how far was it to go to get a dem and make a purchase. £10k is a lot of money to worry about a trip to Europe to listen, and have a break and a look around. British are just sooooo parochial.

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That's an incredible answer !!

So you think that I as a buyer spending a fair amount of money should travel to Europe just to audition something which has distributorship over here ?

Surely this is the job of a distributor. Coupled to which why would I invest my hard earned buying a product from a company that obviously didn't give a flying fig ?

Then we also come across the warranty issues, in the event of a problem I'm going to have to stump up for shipping to Europe instead of local (UK) support ?

It's not a question of wanting to do something more akin to having a dog and wagging it's tail for it.

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Originally Posted by Nick

That's an incredible answer !!

So you think that I as a buyer spending a fair amount of money should travel to Europe just to audition something which has distributorship over here ?

Surely this is the job of a distributor. Coupled to which why would I invest my hard earned buying a product from a company that obviously didn't give a flying fig ?

Then we also come across the warranty issues, in the event of a problem I'm going to have to stump up for shipping to Europe instead of local (UK) support ?

It's not a question of wanting to do something more akin to having a dog and wagging it's tail for it.

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Do as you wish it is none of my business. It just seemed it was important to hear them so I made a suggestion. The Hi-Fi industry owes you nothing and doesn't have to perform and wag its tail to your whims. There are many things we can't buy for one reason or another, it is not the end of the world.

Anyway I hope you enjoy what you have now, if they don't get your business it is their loss.

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Originally Posted by Nick

Anthony, I think that is part of the problem for sure but not the whole enchilada. I am certainly one of the people with backbone enough to make my own decisions but at times this can be difficult. Sometimes the manufacturers and/or distributors manage to shoot themselves firmly in the foot. A recent personal experience when I was looking to change speakers brought this home to me. I will not mention the names for fear of retribution but a little lateral thinking based on what I did end up buying will probably get you the answer.

I wanted to listen to a pair of speakers by maker X. I contacted the distributor only to be told that he only currently had a much smaller model in the country. So I said that I would certainly like to hear that but was really looking further up the range than that. He then said he would arrange for the manufacturer to send a pair of the more upmarket speakers for my evaluation. Two weeks passed with no word, bear in mind the manufacturer is European based, so I again contacted the distributor and basically I got an "I really can't be bothered response". This infuriated me a little and so I grabbed the bull by the horns and directly contacted the manufacturer. I told them what I was trying to do and the difficulties I'd encountered. Their response was even more amazing, along the lines of we don't do enough business in the UK to bother. Needless to say at this point I decided to not pursue the quest any further.

Two different strands of apathy here.

One a distributor who didn't want to put himself out on a maybe purchaser, this I can almost understand as from what I understand most demo models have to be paid for by the distributor.

The manufacturer response just baffled me. They have distribution here that you would have thought indicated a desire to build their market over here. At the time they had an interested customer with £10K burning a hole in his pocket they just shuffled off shrugging their shoulders.

Just my .02

Nick

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nick,
thats terible! just goes to show that nothing is clear cut, and that on times manufacturers can also be just as bad [worse in your case] than their distributors...:(

Also somewhat surprising considering many overseas manufactures seem to regard the UK as 'Treasure Island' is so much as they can seemingly charge more or less whatever they like. Including the usual ridiculous markup for their distributor/dealers.

I wonder if the same speakers would have been quite so expensive 'over there' ??? :scratch:

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Originally Posted by Shian7

Also somewhat surprising considering many overseas manufactures seem to regard the UK as 'Treasure Island' is so much as they can seemingly charge more or less whatever they like. Including the usual ridiculous markup for their distributor/dealers.

I wonder if the same speakers would have been quite so expensive 'over there' ??? :scratch:

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Germany France and Italy are just as bad as us, best bargains are in Holland and Belgium.

Take a trip to the Far East and in Singapore and Hong Kong you will pay 30% less for UK manufactured product than you do here :mental:

Take a trip to the US and you will pay 30 to 40% less than you do here for UK manufactured product and 50% less for US manufactured product :mental:

They say voters get the government they deserve, and I am afraid Hi-Fi enthusiast get the Hi-Fi industry they deserve, so vote with your feet, that is the only thing that will change it.

I've never actually voted for any of our so called governments!

Well.... there was that time when I voted for the Green Party, but I was young and stoned in those days.... :confused: :mental:

As for voting with my feet, well I'd like to think that I'm doing that in some small way by sticking mostly to the DIY side of things these days, or using the second hand market when possible.
Of course I do need to buy new components (as in resistors, valves etc) from time to time, and I'm not up to making a DVD player or TV from scratch!

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Originally Posted by Richard

Do as you wish it is none of my business. It just seemed it was important to hear them so I made a suggestion. The Hi-Fi industry owes you nothing and doesn't have to perform and wag its tail to your whims. There are many things we can't buy for one reason or another, it is not the end of the world.

Anyway I hope you enjoy what you have now, if they don't get your business it is their loss.

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You're right, it is my business.

The hi-fi industry owes me something as a prospective purchaser and that is simply consideration. I really wasn't asking anyone to do anything other than the job they put themselves forward to do, in normal business that is expected and doesn't constitute some kind of favour. Yes, at the time it was in my list to hear the items but after considerable effort on my part it seemed no one was interested. At that point I wonder about all the other things like customer service in the event of problems etc;

You are aware of the requirement of some kind of service for a customer ?

You have at least helped me in one area, with the pompous attitude you have displayed I certainly wouldn't be buying any of your products, period. With that I'm out of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Nick

You're right, it is my business.

The hi-fi industry owes me something as a prospective purchaser and that is simply consideration. I really wasn't asking anyone to do anything other than the job they put themselves forward to do, in normal business that is expected and doesn't constitute some kind of favour. Yes, at the time it was in my list to hear the items but after considerable effort on my part it seemed no one was interested. At that point I wonder about all the other things like customer service in the event of problems etc;

You are aware of the requirement of some kind of service for a customer ?

You have at least helped me in one area, with the pompous attitude you have displayed I certainly wouldn't be buying any of your products, period. With that I'm out of this thread.

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Oh dear, thats sad!

All I did was offer you a solution, but if you went at them like you are now doing at me when you can't get your own way, can you blame them. Most high end distributors have an attitude, it goes with the job so it seems. Something to do with making themselves as superior as their products, perhaps to justify their ridiculous mark-ups. Anyway anyone who is willing to pay £10k for a couple of lumps of wood with some drivers in them is just labelling themselves as a patsy, no matter what is in it they cannot justify that price, you can get a new car for that for heaven sake and that has massive mark up as well. You are probably paying under £1000 for the speaker and the rest for nothing but to keep the fat gits in fat gits toys.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Oh dear, thats sad!

All I did was offer you a solution, but if you went at them like you are now doing at me when you can't get your own way, can you blame them. Most high end distributors have an attitude, it goes with the job so it seems. Something to do with making themselves as superior as their products, perhaps to justify their ridiculous mark-ups. Anyway anyone who is willing to pay £10k for a couple of lumps of wood with some drivers in them is just labelling themselves as a patsy, no matter what is in it they cannot justify that price, you can get a new car for that for heaven sake and that has massive mark up as well. You are probably paying under £1000 for the speaker and the rest for nothing but to keep the fat gits in fat gits toys.

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Oh dear indeed, this is sad !!

I did say I'd be leaving this thread but when someone calls me a "patsy" I feel I have to respond.

You offered a solution ?? All you offered was that I should chase around half the world to audition a product supposedly supported in my country of residence.

My response to you was not at all about "not getting my own way". It was all about the arrogant attitude you seem to have towards customers. Spending a deal of money, whatever it's being spent on, does bring with it some expectation of customer service. All I pointed out in my original post was that in some cases this service was severely lacking.

My original post merely described a situation which I feel illustrates part of the reason for the decline of the hi-fi industry. Some how you managed to turn it into a personal attack where everything was my fault and down to my attitude.

You really need to look at your attitude, I feel. You have a very confrontational style and quickly resort to personal remarks rather than attempt to empathise with a point of view. This to my mind isn't constructive discussion more like "neener neener" school bully tactics. This might intimidate some people, it doesn't work with me.

How dare you call me a "patsy" !! I have conducted my posts, incidentally not really directly aimed at you, without resorting to name calling. It seems that if someone comes along who doesn't agree with you the toys come flying out of your pram. I "went at you", again without resorting to name calling, because your initial response to my post was to tell me I was to blame :scratch:

As it turned I came in well under my £10k budget and am very happy with the product I bought and the service of both distributor and manufacturer.

Anything else you'd like to call me ?

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Originally Posted by Nick

Oh dear indeed, this is sad !!

I did say I'd be leaving this thread but when someone calls me a "patsy" I feel I have to respond.

You offered a solution ?? All you offered was that I should chase around half the world to audition a product supposedly supported in my country of residence.

My response to you was not at all about "not getting my own way". It was all about the arrogant attitude you seem to have towards customers. Spending a deal of money, whatever it's being spent on, does bring with it some expectation of customer service. All I pointed out in my original post was that in some cases this service was severely lacking.

My original post merely described a situation which I feel illustrates part of the reason for the decline of the hi-fi industry. Some how you managed to turn it into a personal attack where everything was my fault and down to my attitude.

You really need to look at your attitude, I feel. You have a very confrontational style and quickly resort to personal remarks rather than attempt to empathise with a point of view. This to my mind isn't constructive discussion more like "neener neener" school bully tactics. This might intimidate some people, it doesn't work with me.

How dare you call me a "patsy" !! I have conducted my posts, incidentally not really directly aimed at you, without resorting to name calling. It seems that if someone comes along who doesn't agree with you the toys come flying out of your pram. I "went at you", again without resorting to name calling, because your initial response to my post was to tell me I was to blame :scratch:

As it turned I came in well under my £10k budget and am very happy with the product I bought and the service of both distributor and manufacturer.

Anything else you'd like to call me ?

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It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:

I reiterate - *anyone* who spends £10k on a pair of speakers is a patsy as far as I am concerned, you paid less, good for you. £10k was *your* figure not mine.

As to attitude I say what I think, you don't like it which is fine by me. I have not been hot under the collar in any of these posts with you, but you seem to have a propensity for hotness and anger, I would say watch the blood pressure if you react this strongly to simple conversation, but I am sure you would get angry at this as well.

If anything, buy second-hand. At least then someone else has paid for the profit, well to a degree anyway.

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Originally Posted by Richard

It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:

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This is another example of how the slurpers get you, they want their exclusive patches, be that town for a retailer, or country for a distributor. It is all a con and against both UK and EU trading laws. *No* EU manufacturer can refuse to service product within a three year period from new if you are an original purchaser and if they cannot service it then you are entitled under EU law to get a replacement of same or similar specs and of similar or less age.

So you can buy in the EU with the same protection and warranty as you have in the UK. OK shipping costs are higher but with the likes of DHL as booked through Interparcel being nearly as cheap to EU as UK what is the problem. We are in a single market, which is why I said the Brits are so parochial, also VAT is paid at country of purchase and VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.

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Originally Posted by Richard

It cost less and takes less time now-a-days to get to Western Europe than going up and down the UK. But *you* see it as going half way around the world :confused:

I reiterate - *anyone* who spends £10k on a pair of speakers is a patsy as far as I am concerned, you paid less, good for you. £10k was *your* figure not mine.

As to attitude I say what I think, you don't like it which is fine by me. I have not been hot under the collar in any of these posts with you, but you seem to have a propensity for hotness and anger, I would say watch the blood pressure if you react this strongly to simple conversation, but I am sure you would get angry at this as well.

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OK let me deal with each point one at a time.

Granted it takes less money and time to travel to Europe these days. I do *know* this as I've travelled extensively on business. This wasn't my original point. I was merely pointing out that one wouldn't expect to have to travel outside the country when distributorship was available internally.

You make the blanket *patsy* statement with no reference. Your inference is some kind of mental deficiency is required for that kind of expenditure. Of course that's your *opinion* and you're entitled to it. I feel I got value for my money in the purchase I made and that's really what counts in this case. In my original post I didn't request comment on whether my intended expenditure was sensible you put forward that, rather blanket, opinion without request.

Finally you don't know me at all so let's dispense with the online psycho-analysis. I don't have a propensity for hotness or anger. What I do object to is the way you turned my anecdotal evidence of a less than satisfactory, *my view*, transaction with a section of the hi-fi industry into a personal dissection. I haven't got angry by what you've said just mildly irritated. By the way my blood pressure is fine, thanks for your concern. Although this little snipe is really not relevant to the discussion.

I appreciate you haven't been hot under the collar but your style is confrontational to me and, I have noted in other exchanges, to others. Often this kind of directness appears rude in flat type even when not intended.

Saying what you think isn't always as admirable as you seem to think. It's sometimes more conducive to reasonable conversation to hold back an opinion which isn't actually relevant to the discussion in hand.

Cheers

Nick

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Originally Posted by Nick

OK let me deal with each point one at a time.

Granted it takes less money and time to travel to Europe these days. I do *know* this as I've travelled extensively on business. This wasn't my original point. I was merely pointing out that one wouldn't expect to have to travel outside the country when distributorship was available internally.

You make the blanket *patsy* statement with no reference. Your inference is some kind of mental deficiency is required for that kind of expenditure. Of course that's your *opinion* and you're entitled to it. I feel I got value for my money in the purchase I made and that's really what counts in this case. In my original post I didn't request comment on whether my intended expenditure was sensible you put forward that, rather blanket, opinion without request.

Finally you don't know me at all so let's dispense with the online psycho-analysis. I don't have a propensity for hotness or anger. What I do object to is the way you turned my anecdotal evidence of a less than satisfactory, *my view*, transaction with a section of the hi-fi industry into a personal dissection. I haven't got angry by what you've said just mildly irritated. By the way my blood pressure is fine, thanks for your concern. Although this little snipe is really not relevant to the discussion.

I appreciate you haven't been hot under the collar but your style is confrontational to me and, I have noted in other exchanges, to others. Often this kind of directness appears rude in flat type even when not intended.

Saying what you think isn't always as admirable as you seem to think. It's sometimes more conducive to reasonable conversation to hold back an opinion which isn't actually relevant to the discussion in hand.

Cheers

Nick

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quite right;):)

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Originally Posted by Richard

VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.

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Actually, out of the 27 member countries of the EU, the UK has the 4th lowest rate of VAT.

Only Cyprus (15%), Spain (16%) and Luxembourg (15%) are lower than our paltry 17.5%.

http://www.scopulus.co.uk/taxsheets/..._vat_rates.htm

Still, don't let hard facts get in the way of a good rant!

Ed.

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Originally Posted by Mr Ed

Actually, out of the 27 member countries of the EU, the UK has the 4th lowest rate of VAT.

Only Cyprus (15%), Spain (16%) and Luxembourg (15%) are lower than our paltry 17.5%.

http://www.scopulus.co.uk/taxsheets/..._vat_rates.htm

Still, don't let hard facts get in the way of a good rant!

Ed.

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Whoops!! well you must be right. The last time I think I looked about 2 to 3 years ago I am sure we were about the most expensive. Things must have changed.

France 19.7%

A couple of things,

Richard, cut the insults. There is a pattern emerging here that I don't like where some individuals think that, by softening the tone of the insult a little, we admin will think it softens the impact so as not to cause offence when the intent is to do just that. Dodging around some notion of an AUP that doesn't actually exist really isn't going to cut it here - we have an ethos instead of which we expect everyone to embrace the spirit not follow to the letter. Your views, much of which I respect even if I don't agree with, would carry more weight if you could temper the bitter, twisted and angry aspect to your posting.

Nick,

One of the harsh realities of life I guess is that as much as you are free to buy or not to buy, the guy from whom you may wish to purchase is as free to sell or not to sell. In my line of work I often refuse business because it is either uneconomical or just not worth the hassle and I'm not talking about any risk of getting my head kicked in either.

Most large companies have a customer services operation that aims to keep customers happy on their behalf. If you are not happy with the service you receive from any given manufacturer as a prospective customer you can opt to escalate matters to someone more senior on the basic assumption that those above will want your business. If you've spoken to the big boss and he's clearely not interested then too bad. You'll just have to take your money elsewhere.

Making you, the customer feel special is a means to an end not an end in itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

Nick,

One of the harsh realities of life I guess is that as much as you are free to buy or not to buy, the guy from whom you may wish to purchase is as free to sell or not to sell. In my line of work I often refuse business because it is either uneconomical or just not worth the hassle and I'm not talking about any risk of getting my head kicked in either.

Most large companies have a customer services operation that aims to keep customers happy on their behalf. If you are not happy with the service you receive from any given manufacturer as a prospective customer you can opt to escalate matters to someone more senior on the basic assumption that those above will want your business. If you've spoken to the big boss and he's clearely not interested then too bad. You'll just have to take your money elsewhere.

Making you, the customer feel special is a means to an end not an end in itself.

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Hi Steve

I understand all you say and in fact I did take my money elsewhere when I realised I was flogging a dead horse (no offence intended Mr Ed :)).

I wasn't expecting to be made to feel special just to be helped to listen to the product they were selling. End of the day I'm happy with where I went and they lost a sale.

Now I'll just wait for the company concerned to start whining about how poor the demand for their product appears to be !! ;)

Cheers

Nick

Quote:

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Now I'll just wait for the company concerned to start whining about how poor the demand for their product appears to be !!

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Hopefully yes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

A couple of things,

Richard, cut the insults. There is a pattern emerging here that I don't like where some individuals think that, by softening the tone of the insult a little, we admin will think it softens the impact so as not to cause offence when the intent is to do just that. Dodging around some notion of an AUP that doesn't actually exist really isn't going to cut it here - we have an ethos instead of which we expect everyone to embrace the spirit not follow to the letter. Your views, much of which I respect even if I don't agree with, would carry more weight if you could temper the bitter, twisted and angry aspect to your posting.

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Completely dissagree, there was nothing insulting veiled or otherwise in what I wrote, in fact you paraphrased it in the latter part of this post, are you insulting him? There have been more insult in his replies than my post, but whatever. If you look for something you want to find I am sure you will find it. He over reacted - full stop, with anger and agression which *was not* reflected in *my* post. Seems strange for me to be defending a distributor, but you if see the behaviour of some (very few) customers who are just up their **** regarding what they think are their rights and your duties you would see what I mean. Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.

Quote:

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Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.

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Richard,

I agree with the above 100%. All I ask is that you do your bit to relieve us all of the confrontation element existing on both sides of any given heated debate.

As for the future of dealers the golden age of hi-fi is definitely over and many dealers will find it tough trading as a result. As fuel, taxes and food go up and earnings don't, people will have less to spend. This is precipitating the decline that began in the nineties as hi-fi became stigmatised in a brave new world of glossy lifestyle magazines, style over substance as well as more other new things like computers, AV and games consoles to tempt us to part with any disposable income we may yet still have left.

The situation is no different in France where I spoke to the son of the owner of Amplitude in Tours. I was surprised to find even one hi-fi shop but aparently back in the late 80s there were 17 of them in a city roughly the size of Derby. Perhaps the decline in the number of dealers is both inevitable and serves as a form of natural justice.

However, there are one or two dealers out there that genuinely do add value to your purchases in making the whole of your system greater than the sum of the parts. As these few dealers continue to prosper - and they are, others may follow and build on their good practice within a few years. These things tend to go in cycles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

Completely dissagree, there was nothing insulting veiled or otherwise in what I wrote, in fact you paraphrased it in the latter part of this post, are you insulting him? There have been more insult in his replies than my post, but whatever. If you look for something you want to find I am sure you will find it. He over reacted - full stop, with anger and agression which *was not* reflected in *my* post. Seems strange for me to be defending a distributor, but you if see the behaviour of some (very few) customers who are just up their **** regarding what they think are their rights and your duties you would see what I mean. Problem is until you actually buy something you have no rights and they have no duties, and sometimes you just get so much demand for attention and continual questioning as though you are dealing with a child it is much simpler to say sorry but I just do not want your business. Like all relationships a little common sense is required which is all I was trying to convey.

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Ok Richard, I'd really like to draw a line under this for good and then I'm going to leave you to your view of the world.

Your reply to my initial post was condescending and patronising in the extreme. From there on you just let it get more personal in my view.

At no point in our exchanges did I resort to name calling, for example, the term *patsy*. I did say I thought you had a pompous tone to your replies and I still stand by that.

As a customer I'm certainly not up my own rear end. I didn't mention my *rights* or their *duty*, I merely detailed my interaction with company(s) who were supposedly in business to sell product but were seemingly disinterested in doing so. Those terms have all been introduced into the exchange by yourself. Of course they are entitled not to sell me anything but the efforts made by them were minimal.

I certainly didn't demand in a child like way and in fact all my communications with both parties were cordial and civil, even at the point where I expressed that I wasn't going to consider the product further.

I know about demanding clients in my line of work but I'm always as positive and helpful as I can be in those kind of situations. Perhaps you might want to try and view things from the other side of the fence now and again.

I want to bring this to a reasonably happy end but every time I do you have to prod one more time. I hope this now explains my reason for the initial post and the ones following.

Cheers

Nick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nick

Ok Richard, I'd really like to draw a line under this for good and then I'm going to leave you to your view of the world.

Your reply to my initial post was condescending and patronising in the extreme. From there on you just let it get more personal in my view.

At no point in our exchanges did I resort to name calling, for example, the term *patsy*. I did say I thought you had a pompous tone to your replies and I still stand by that.

As a customer I'm certainly not up my own rear end. I didn't mention my *rights* or their *duty*, I merely detailed my interaction with company(s) who were supposedly in business to sell product but were seemingly disinterested in doing so. Those terms have all been introduced into the exchange by yourself. Of course they are entitled not to sell me anything but the efforts made by them were minimal.

I certainly didn't demand in a child like way and in fact all my communications with both parties were cordial and civil, even at the point where I expressed that I wasn't going to consider the product further.

I know about demanding clients in my line of work but I'm always as positive and helpful as I can be in those kind of situations. Perhaps you might want to try and view things from the other side of the fence now and again.

I want to bring this to a reasonably happy end but every time I do you have to prod one more time. I hope this now explains my reason for the initial post and the ones following.

Cheers

Nick

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You have a problem sir! everytime I make a generalisation or reply to someone elses post you take it as aimed at you. This is not a personal letter (and nor were the others) sent to *you* it is a reply to a forum post, which means it is addressed to the *whole* forum. So "patsy" referred to anyone willing to pay 10 grand for a speaker *in my opinion* and "up your ****" or child like behaviour wasn't even connected to you in any way or even as a reply to your remarks, it was a reply to another poster.

You are reacting and getting angry out of context. The whole world is not on your back there are others out there you know. Why do you have take it all so personally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Toy

Richard,

I agree with the above 100%. All I ask is that you do your bit to relieve us all of the confrontation element existing on both sides of any given heated debate.

As for the future of dealers the golden age of hi-fi is definitely over and many dealers will find it tough trading as a result. As fuel, taxes and food go up and earnings don't, people will have less to spend. This is precipitating the decline that began in the nineties as hi-fi became stigmatised in a brave new world of glossy lifestyle magazines, style over substance as well as more other new things like computers, AV and games consoles to tempt us to part with any disposable income we may yet still have left.

The situation is no different in France where I spoke to the son of the owner of Amplitude in Tours. I was surprised to find even one hi-fi shop but aparently back in the late 80s there were 17 of them in a city roughly the size of Derby. Perhaps the decline in the number of dealers is both inevitable and serves as a form of natural justice.

However, there are one or two dealers out there that genuinely do add value to your purchases in making the whole of your system greater than the sum of the parts. As these few dealers continue to prosper - and they are, others may follow and build on their good practice within a few years. These things tend to go in cycles.

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Sorry mate but I have to dissagree again :eyebrows:

The two system - direct or through retail are mutually incompatible unless the retail point just becomes an extension of direct sale like PC direct. The reatiler know perfectly well that unless they stop any direct sale from being successfull then they have lost the game. In the past they could do it and the cartel could kill any company stepping out of line and killing the slurp. Now, thank goodness in my opinion, they cannot stop it and it will progressively happen over the next 5 years and the recession we are going into, which in my opinion will be a big one will change buying habits for ever. Most is made in China now and the uk retailers and distributors are making over 70% of the profit in those sales, if you really saw the price you can buy in bulk from China you would be shocked. That manufacturing base (with India coming on line as well) will dominate mainstream products from cars downwards. Manufacture for us will be bespoke and *direct*, the future is the likes of Beresford and sorry to be rude but I cannot remember his name and I cannot look while writting this, the guy who makes Marcos amp, the new moderator, and myself. Bespoke supplies hobby and quality, different market to AVI and their like, they still think they can have the best of all worlds, sorry no way, if you are really good and create a market you will be copied and China and India will copy with no conscience. Bespoke and direct is the only future for this industry as it declines (in my opinion grows) into its core, its enthusiast, its real purpose, it should never have been a mainstream market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

You have a problem sir! everytime I make a generalisation or reply to someone elses post you take it as aimed at you. This is not a personal letter (and nor were the others) sent to *you* it is a reply to a forum post, which means it is addressed to the *whole* forum. So "patsy" referred to anyone willing to pay 10 grand for a speaker *in my opinion* and "up your ****" or child like behaviour wasn't even connected to you in any way or even as a reply to your remarks, it was a reply to another poster.

You are reacting and getting angry out of context. The whole world is not on your back there are others out there you know. Why do you have take it all so personally?

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Hells teeth why can you not resist the temptation to always have the last word ?

Your clarification of the use of the term *patsy* does nothing to defend your assertion that it wasn't aimed at least partly at me. Until I mentioned my budget £10K hadn't come up in this thread. So as a person willing to spend £10K on a speaker I'm lumped in with your definition and I object to being called it either directly or in your veiled manner.

Once again I must correct you, I'm not angry nor do I think the whole world is on my back. I do think however you have issues with actually taking the time to consider a point of view contrary to your own.

It was clear to me in the context of the post I made that your remarks were at least partly aimed at me. I draw this conclusion from your judgement of me in previous posts and the fact that the reply you mention was in response to Steve's rebuke regarding your treatment of me. Your referral to me as "him", I have a name clearly displayed, indicates the level of disadain you apparently have for me.

To say your replies were not addressed personally to me is also bogus as they were all based around my anecdotal post.

It's pretty easy to see through the posts you make and I don't think you are doing yourself any favours with your line of "discussion".

Cheers

Nick

Nick,

I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)

When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.

It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.

Richard,

Would you like me to resurrect your old ranting thread and re-establish it as a sticky? I could then merge this thread into it so you've got one area in which to do your 'ranting'?

Or are you happy with things as they are? Just let me know what you'd prefer :smoking:

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Nick,

I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)

When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.

It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.

Marco.

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Hi Marco

Thank you for the compliment and the advice.

I will make sure to have large quantities of salt nearby when reading Richard's rants :)

Cheers

Nick

Trust me, it's definitely recommended! :)

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

Nick,

I must congratulate you on the quality of your writing in recent posts, and also some of the excellent points you've made :)

When it comes to Richard, you must remember that when he's in 'rant mode' he's making general observations that aren't directed at any one person in particular, even though it may seem that way. He's just 'going off on one' about what annoys him.

It's best to read Richard's posts with that in mind and not take them too seriously.

Richard,

Would you like me to resurrect your old ranting thread and re-establish it as a sticky? I could then merge this thread into it so you've got one area in which to do your 'ranting'?

Or are you happy with things as they are? Just let me know what you'd prefer :smoking:

Marco.

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Yeah! ok sonny, why not! do your bit for papa :smoking:

Done :)

Don't say I'm not good to you!

Marco.

I find the total disconnect between Richard in "Forum Rant Mode" and how he comes over when dealing with him as a seller of his excellent hifi goodies hugely amusing ! ;)

IME as a hifi seller he is the epitome of polite, understated, non-pushy helpfulness. As a Forum Ranter, :doh: errr .... well, you know the rest! :lol:

I don't doubt that, Jerry; hence why I said to Nick not to take him too seriously on here.

In 'rant mode' I view Richard as an amusing cartoon character, in the nicest possible sense, much like the picture in his avatar :lolsign:

How's the cold now - are your ears 'un-bunged' now? :)

Marco.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

How's the cold now - are your ears 'un-bunged' now? :)

Marco.

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Yes, thanks. :) Cold gone, Ears syringed/washed-out (ye gods, the gunk that came out! :() - and I can hear again! It was a bad few days when I wasn't able to listen to music.

Nice one. Too much info, though! :bog:

Did you get round to reviewing Jim's baffles? I haven't checked yet.

Marco.

Yes, it was awful having clogged up ears - like listening thru ADM9s :lol:. Oops, sorry. ;)

Yep, I've put some 2nd Impressions up in the diffraction thread. Still waiting for the next "Slow Boat From Texas" to arrive though, with Woolly Widgets to go specifically with my new Bowers Active speakers. Here they are ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...0/DSCF3814.jpg

These are real active hifi speakers - big muthas with 300W amps on board, not some lifestyle wonder for soap watchers!

OK, OK, I'll leave now. :wave:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandl100

...not some lifestyle wonder for soap watchers!

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:lol:

Beautifully put Jerry. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard

.... and VAT in *every* EU country is cheaper than ours - rip off UK again.

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Actualy that's not correct. Belgian VAT is 21%. I know this because I buy projection screens from a Belgian manufacturer.

:laser: :lol::popcorn::sofa:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point.

Ashley

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Do you have a link to that quote?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashley James

...Someone wrote suggesting that AOS was like a seventies time warp and the may have a point.

Ashley

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That's odd, I've just been approached by a hi-fi magazine wishing to publish my post on Mac audiophile output settings. Somehow I don't think that's seventies at all.

No offence Ashley, but you've lost it completely now. :mental:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandl100

IME as a hifi seller he is the epitome of polite, understated, non-pushy helpfulness. As a Forum Ranter, :doh: errr .... well, you know the rest! :lol:

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The trouble is my only experience of him has been as the latter :lolsign: