It wasn't aimed at Richard specifically. Maybe I should have written "No worse than stating one's point of view on a forum."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
:)
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It wasn't aimed at Richard specifically. Maybe I should have written "No worse than stating one's point of view on a forum."Quote:
Originally Posted by Shian7
:)
Now reopened, but I'm keeping an eye on the direction the discussion takes ;)Quote:
...especially as the thread has been locked and there's no chance of reply.
Marco.
Thread tidied at Richard's request.
LOL. Keen, aren't you?
Do your job properly though and clear up the leftovers! ;)
Marco.
Marco, I can only 'soft delete' mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Ah, ok... We might have to look at that :)
I'll rub out the rest, then.
Marco.
I've just swept up the last two. Only Administrators can hard delete.
Do you have to be a pervert to be admin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Filterlab
All this hard or soft wankinhg and magazines. AND now you want to pervert my poor little apprentice.:eek::o
All I want to do is put a mains plug in his ear, but you two tut tut tut!!!
Not sure I follow, but hey ho. :)
Tee hee...
Rob,
Can Super Mods not 'hard' delete? :)
Marco.
Not a clue, possibly but I haven't looked into that, only the permissions for normal mods.
There seems to be a generalisation in this thread that internet retailers/manufacturers can or do offer almost no service at all, this being the main reason why this (not yet fully fledged) revolution in Hifi retail won't succeed. Not my experience at all:
I will get no thanks for bringing these examples up, but Stan's service from Homehifi was excellent, even recommending and sourcing a BNC/phono adaptor for my Cambridge CD6 last year (it should have had phono fitted). You may laugh, but I hadn't seen a BNC connection before - why should I have done? - But Stan didn't make me feel awkward about my ignorance at all. Nor did he charge me. I cannot give any endorsements of similar nature to a dealer near me, who seemed to disdain anyone without their knowledge(?) of this seasons gear. I am a happy Beresford 6/3 owner, and I heard about it in Forums.:)
I have to say that Richard with NVA also has gone far and beyond the bounds of mere 'service', even bailing me out of a serious mis-judgement on my part with a second hand purchase gone wrong. I cannot imagine recieving such attention at 90% of dealers (or anyone else) as it took time, hassle and left him out of pocket. It is along story, Which I will not recount as it may open floodgates for Richard, but it culminated in a very happy listener indeed. Yet the dealer I mentioned charged a fortune for some terminations a while back and left me feeling I had been taken for a ride.:steam::
So as far as certain dealers 'add' value with good service, certain manufacturers do also, and without the extra cost.:)
I'm not saying one way is better than the other, I don't have the experience for that; but as a music lover (with an interest in hifi) on a budget, I welcome this new approach, and not just as an angry, overcharged punter or a professional who seeks to influence a change for the better, but as a newcomer.:wave:
It really does (and will) work.:cool:
Good post, Alan.
The thing is, as long as you're dealing with genuine people like Stan and Richard you won't go wrong. Whether they're running their businesses on-line or from a retail premises, their values remain the same.
However this also applies to many good dealers up and down the country who operate from a high street shop. Unfortunately you don't seem to have encountered them.
Marco.
But then they charge twice as much for doing it - you cannot get over this fact Marco, no matter how you try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
You keep going on about price.
Price isn't the be-all-and-end-all of everything, Richard.
You're just on a 'crusade' and can't admit there are *some* knowledgeable and genuine dealers out there, but I'm not going to get into another argument with you about it :)
Marco.
I might go on a "crucade" if I knew what it was, but I definitely wouldn't be on a crook-ade which it seems most hi-fi retailers are on :lolsign:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
LOGIC - same service and no disadvantages, as Allan stresses, but twice the price - there is *no* saving argument from this fact.
Sorry, typo!
Whatever keeps you happy. As I said, I won't be arguing with you round and round in circles about it.
I think you need a new 'ranting' subject though, as this one has been done to death and most people are bored with it now. You might wish to bear this in mind ;)
Marco.
I shall never get over ranting about this one until like the dinosaurs they are consigned to bones in museums. Anyway you keep feeding me lines, so I have to respond. :mental:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Anyway basic misconception, I am not here to entertain others - but to entertain myself. :ner:
Here's another 'line' for you to chew on, Richard, and it's my last on this subject.
From this month's Hi-fi News magazine in the 'Hi-fi @ Home' article, where a reader's system is featured every month:
The reader, John, says about his dealer (Trevor Martin from Guildford Audio - someone I have also dealt with on a regular basis; and a member of this forum):
Hear, hear!Quote:
With hi-fi it's not so much what's good and bad, it's about what synergises. There's lots of good kit about, but it has to be properly matched. And that's where a really good dealer will help, by going to some lengths to get it right. Trevor is very good at that.
Well done, Trevor - and he's not alone ;)
Marco.
So one part of the mafia is telling you how brilliant another part of the mafia is. "Now where is my advertising" slurp slurp!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
This is the major problem in the industry - people who set themselves up as experts with minimal knowledge, next to no technical savvy, but a good line in marketing bullshit. That is the motivation in becoming a retailer - to sell. Everything else about themselves and their abilities is *marketing*.
Anyone apart from a total newby has the basics of what is needed to match equipment and if they haven't then they have two strange things on the sides of their heads to help them. Why do you think punters should rely on proxy strange things on the sides of someone elses head who has a good line in bullshit and whos only motivation is to make money from you!!!! :confused: :mental:
For newbys, retailers used to be essential, and also they became cannon fodder for the NLP (they have been the food and fodder for the hi-fi mafia ever since). Now they have on-line help from experienced users - #1 loss of purpose for a retailer.
Experienced users - what the F' do they need a retailer for, apart from to buy a product that is controlled and only sold through retail. So I am trying to get people to see they don't need them and then more and more manufacturers will go direct. And now also there is *community* for the propogation of information not just the marketing NLP - #2 loss of purpose for a retailer.
There ain't a #3 so bye-bye! not so good knowing you, close the door and switch the lights off on the way out of the industry. :gig:
the dealer actually has the stuff available to allow you to use those strange things on the side of your head, just to check out how it works, with a range of other stuff, unlike the cottage industry builder. This guy wants you to pay his distribution, and returns costs so that you can hear it. A new entrant into this silly game had better hope retail holds up, can you imagine the carrier costs just to compare a few cd players, amps and speakers properly. Yes Richard, dealers are in it to make money, just the same as you, well unless you are so well endowed with spare time you build for free, in which case more fool you.
The Internet may well change the face of retail, just not yet, and we are not all only price aware, some still value a little extra service. Some retailers give it, some do not, the bad ones should and will go. You also seem to have forgot that to a number of Hi-Fi fans the badge is half the product, it gives willy brandishing rights, and they will pay for the rights.
Don't be fooled, he sells you what he wants to sell you. Hi-end needs warm up, hi-end requires suitable positioning and cabling, hi-end requires the foot to be tapped at the appropriate moments, ok the last one is just one of the dealer NLP cons, but you know what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Now think of an on-line community where forums are linked and there is a data base of product and who owns it and which area. Plus people who are willing to let you listen, maybe even for a consideration from the manufacturer (I don't like this but it could be a little grease as long as not sale dependent). Plus access to talk to a large database of people who own the product you are interested in. Think of regular organised local bake-offs where an evening can be spent discovering new music and new equipment you hadn't even considered. We are not there yet but we are on our way. The dealer is not dead yet, but the replacement is in transition, as the industry is in transistion. How long, well this recession will help it with a pretty big shove.
Then why would the dealer I use get stuff in for me to hear that he does not normally stock. Sit you in in the dem room, supply a coffee and sod off and let you listen. Why does he not come in and tap his feet, sit looking glum until he changed power cables, then smile and tap his feet. Neither does he tell you how important set up and placement is, other than for speakers, and I assume you accept speaker placement matters.
You also seem to have forgotten that many forums have flavour of the month, that is listed for sale 3 months after. Every one has an agenda, either for personal gain, personal satisfaction or even pecking order on forums.
If you are genuinely pleased that we are going into, or are in, a recession that may see thousands suffer real financial hardship so that the few remaing hi-fi dealers suffer then you have less respect for humanity than I would have thought possible.
Now you are being silly, and getting upset at a rant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Recession is just the natural other side of the coin, you cannot create a bubble unless it bursts at some time, law of nature.
If you have a good dealer be happy, I very much quote worst case, but there are a hell of a lot of worst cases. But does it make you happy to pay twice as much as the product is worth, just for time in his dem room and coffee. If you think so then you are with Marco in this.
Just because I rant do you really think I expect everyone to agree with me? If it makes you think and maybe challenge the status quo, then the rant has worked.
Not in the least upset, just amazed me that rant mode on or off a recession should be a cause for celebration.
Do I think its worth paying double for something, as per my previous post, double what, and what does your ''half price offer'' cover. Certainly not my time waiting for delivery/collection of packages, use of credit or cash to cover the costs of turning my listening room into a shop, and from your own post your prices will have to rise when you hit the VAT threshold, thats a third of the price difference gone.
The status quo may need a coat of looking at- how about something radical, instead of paying more for the goods, or paying for transport/returns, we pay the dealer for his time, purchase made or not. how about something around the same hourly rate as Ford charge for a mechanic to service you car should do it.
Why are you bringing this back to nva. What I say only coincidently has anything to do with nva.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Do you know how the industry prices, obviously not. Go into the archive it is explained there, I cannot be arsed to do your work for you if you want to know. It is not just nva it is every product. Look at what Sensi said, read his post if you don't believe me. A usual hi-end hi-fi retailers mark up is 100% or if looked at as profit margin then 50%. But it gets worse as Sensi said. If your product is new they want 150% and they want to pay for it when they sell it (if then). Come on this is just taking the piss and that is what they do.
It is up to you if you wish to be one of their apologists, but they really don't need it. They were essential for the market to function, now far less so, and that continuing process with eventually see their demise. Which if you have any sense will be a time for celebration.
I do not accept any of your arguments about turning you home into a dem room, that is what it is anyway in some ways. It makes no difference how you buy you will have that same process to go through. All your other arguments have been made and countered before, just view the archive, if you dissagree well too bad, you dissagree. I do not *expect* your agreement. But what I present is a possibility, a potential, a likelyhood of a dealer less world (in all things not just hi-fi) and as long as the manufacturers don't get greedy and just take the profit for themselves a considerably less outgoings world as well.
Our creation of the bubble in the last 10 years has been built largely off the Chinese expansion and production. It wont last, it couldn't last, it was a one off, nothing to do with Gordon Brown's expertise as a chancelor. The bubble is bursting, I celebrate the function of balance, of the interaction of yin and yang, the natural way of things. If you think it is a bad thing then you have no sense of reality. It is no worse than night having to follow day.
That's an interesting idea, but you find it falls on deaf ears as far as Richard is concerned. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
He seems hell bent on his little rant against the industry. Maybe it's because he's still pee'd off that he couldn't get dealers to take his product, or that his attempts to sell direct by doing home dems didn't work out. Who knows, and more to the point really who cares? Now he's selling through Ebay he seems happy enough, though I think he's selling mostly low priced cables looking at the Ebay history for the last qtr. Ebay will work for him until something goes wrong. Then it will be public enemy number #1
:lolsign:
Don't bring me into this again, Richard. I actually agree with about 90% of what you're saying. If you would alter your argument to acknowledge that there are *some* good, worthwhile, dealers around instead of rubbishing every one of them completely unfairly and illogically, whilst exposing the shysters (which are many) then we would be in 100% agreement :)Quote:
If you think so then you are with Marco in this.
But of course your stubborn head won't entertain that notion. However, it is your ranting thread so I guess we can't expect too much sense or logic ;)
Now please keep me out of this one. I'll comment on your loudspeaker rant later.
Marco.
Still looking for angles :confused: the industry is going in the right direction, I am just pushing a little. Changes are on the way and they are not created by me. As I keep saying I am just the finger pointing at it not the moon itself, so don't confuse it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
None of what you think you find holds water though.
I have been pee'd off with dealers from the moment I had to use them. I have been looking for ways to replace them for 30 years. Now at last we have a viable one. So a previous necessary evil is no longer necessary - my point.
Ebay has its problems but it doesn't pee me off, it irritates me occassionaly. Nothing is perfect, not even me :smoking:, so I will live with it.
What I sell, well your cursory check seems somewhat wrong to me, so I have just looked at my summary.
I hold records of four catagories - Electronics, Loudspeaker Cables, Interconnects, P&P. Leaving out P&P as irrelevent we get since 1st Jan :-
Electronics 40 items £13k
Loudspeaker Cable 45 items £3k
Interconnect 65 items £2k
total £18k - so seeing as I do not want to vat register I need to get that back down to £16k per qtr, or go on a long holiday. Probably the latter.
So come on this is small beer, it is the equivalent of Naims petty cash account. I am just a flea irritating the skin of the industry, or if you remember the old song "an ant pushing at a rubber tree plant".
Once again nothing you say holds any water or has any relevence.
Hi Richard, as I've said previously (and you conveniently ignored) I support some of what you are saying. The bad dealers should be outed; but equally the good dealers should be praised. This is something you seem unwilling to consider. Hey ho, it's your rant.
Oh, and according to Ebay history for Jan 25th - Mar 25th, 2008, you had 120 transactions of which 96 were cables and 28 were electronics of which a sizable chunk were s/h items.
So for every 1 piece of new or used electronics sold you shipped out 3 cable sets. I'm not knocking it, but it does look to me like you're selling mostly cables and at a rate of 3:1 for that particular period. So what I said does "hold water" based on the information available. :smoking:
Regards
That's a most succinct synopsis of my position too, Chris.Quote:
Hi Richard, as I've said previously (and you conveniently ignored) I support some of what you are saying. The bad dealers should be outed; but equally the good dealers should be praised. This is something you seem unwilling to consider. Hey ho, it's your rant.
Great minds or, erm, whatever, think alike! :lolsign:
Marco.
Are you calling me a liar!!!! you obnoxious rude prat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Frost
I have *nothing* to prove to you and no need to give any information. The information I gave is from my quickbooks not ebay. Ebay information you read is only feedback, and a lot don't leave it.
You are knocking it and me, and you had better get your facts right sunshine as at the rate you are going your heading for litigation.
You are absolutely determined to get into conflict with me and you have finally succeeded. You will be contacted.
You're crossing the line here, Richard.
I would advise you to delete that last response otherwise I will remove it. Come on, guys, you can be controversial and argue robustly, but keep it from getting personal!
Marco.
Richard, I would respond with a justification but I'm afraid that you just wouldn't take any notice.
If you want to try ringing me again for a calm rational discussion then please feel free. I stand by what I've said. But I give you fair warning, be careful threatening people with physical violence over the telephone. You never know if the conversation is being recorded.
Regards
Ok, thread closed until the situation has calmed down.
I will re-open it later. But no more threats from anyone!
Marco.
Hmmm.... Looks like I've missed something here? What's been.....
No, on second thoughts, I think I'd rather NOT know....
:scratch:
I'll fill you in later, Mike.
Marco.
Ok - thread now reopened.
Let the nonsense continue... and please try not to issue death threats to each other! :lolsign:
Marco.
I'm gonna have you for that comment! :steam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
:D
LOL Filterlab, very good !!!!
P.
From the Grave
It's amusing/interesting/troubling that the first two posters on this thread are now banned from the forum.
Let’s keep posts strictly on-topic and about the subject matter, rather than personalities, please.
So, do folks here believe that there exists a “Rip off British Hi-Fi Industry”? :)
Marco.
I don't think it's so much rip-off as full of chancers, shills and spivs. But nor is this specifically a British thing - there are plenty in all English speaking countries. Does it affect the continent as much? I have no experience there, so cannot say.
'Hi-fi industry' is a very broad term. I'd say that some elements are rip-off (mark-up on fancy cables, for example) and some are less so. But the growth of direct selling, the gradual loss of the baby-boomer generation, and the move to smaller properties means that the 'specialist' hi-fi dealer is a dying breed anyway, in the same way that bookshops have all but vanished from our high streets.
Was this thread really started SIX YEARS ago?
The answer isn't now as clear cut as it may have been back then IMO. The 'mass market new product' specialist industry has all but disappeared from UK retail at any rate, replaced by a lucrative used market, often bolstered by forums like this one and the only serious new product market now being the 'oligach' one I think. If you were seen to be a bad dealer, you'd have gone under long ago and many once good dealers have just had to close their doors due to lack of interest.
The model for many small manufacturers now seems to be online and as long as products are sold at proper trade prices (and not full retail so an online seller makes double the profit!), we all gain in a way, although obviously, nobody can listen and compare first. Cables aside (a necessary cash cow for survival IMO), dealers do allow you to compare things, hopefully fairly, so you can reach a decision.
By the way, I'm speaking as an ex-hifi dealer of more than thirty years' standing and with a literally lifelong passion about music and the means of reproducing it. I cringe at the UK industry of the 80's and my place in it, although it paid me spectacularly well for a 'shop worker!' and it's now an indelible part of an earlier life for me.
Apologies. I'm rambling again, but there are still a few good long-standing dealers out there, often working from facilities at home, trying to make a living and even cash-cow Naim dealers aren't having it all their own way these days...
And the purpose of digging up this thread was what, exactly? :scratch:
A business who rips-off customers (let alone an industry) is always going to end in tears. No I don't think the HiFi industry rips off its customers, the trade is far too competitive.
However, accessories do have an element of very high prices, similar to how the motor industry work regarding spare parts and while customers flock in then this is not going to change anytime soon. It's interesting that the boutique companies seem to come and go.
Clive
Hi Adam,
Here's the answer to your question….
As it’s been such a long time since the matter was discussed, we wanted to hear what the views were of our current members, which reflect the state of the industry as it is now, six years on, and to analyse any change that has taken place in that respect since the question was first posed :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
Marco.
You can't be 'ripped off' on purchase prices. One only pays what one chooses to!
No doubt poor after sales service occurs, warranties, etc. That may be the rip off!