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Hi KurtQuote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbuech
Yes YBA is nice kit. I used to work for the company who first brought YBA to the UK back in the early 90's and I liked the CDP (though the business of it sounding better with its lid partly open was a bit strange). I have never heard the amps. I will keep an open mind. So far the best type of SS I have heard tends to be class A and Mosfet based, but still I think they lack that natural magic of tubes.
Regards D S D L---Neil :)
hi neil,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalek Supreme D L
yes, very odd that, but i tend to agree about the best sounding SS amps being class A.
anthony,TD...
I have always been interested in valve amps after listening to the same turntable hooked up to solid state then a valve amp. the latter dropped my lower jaw to the floor . The cost always scarred me but recently these chinese types are opening up the market to budgeteers like myself. Should I go for something used or a chinese like the one below or even a yakin pre amp as an option. ? :scratch:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ming-Da-MC84-C...1%7C240%3A1318
HI kalozois100Quote:
Originally Posted by kalozois100
Not sure about that, it might be Ming Da but yet again not. Anybody know for sure ? Looks poor to my eyes, case works not very good - Ming Da is better.
With Chinese amps I would be very careful. there are a lot of very poor ones out there. Set for 220 volts and barely capable of handling that, they over heat, burn through valves or blow up. If you want cheapish but good quality and with a UK warranty I would look at Fat man (Clones of/re badged/ re-worked Dared amps), David Shaw's (reworked/re-designed, same case work as Ming Da amplifiers) Icon Audio or Pure Sound bit dearer but best of the lot IMHO.
A Pure Sound ex demo or S/H, if it suits your speakers (must be reasonably easy to drive and as close to 8 ohms as possible) would be your best option. Try and find a dealer who has one (that falls into the options I mentioned) and have a listen. S/H Icon Audio Stereo 40 also a good option.
Regards D S D L---Neil :)
Anyone tried the German/Chinese amps from Cayin ?
Some questions...
Do people who use valve equipment describe how their system handles the reproduction of music using terminology related to 'sound' or 'music'?
For example, do 'bottle heads' (a rather quaint expression) value the presentational aspects of reproduction more (tone, timbre, soundstaging, etc) than that which 'communicates the musical message' (pace, rhythm, timing, etc)?
As a 'bottle head', is the 'sound' of music more important to you than emotional communication? Are you prone to describing 'sound differences' rather than 'musical differences' when analysing how your valve amp or system handles music?
This post over on pfm is what prompted me to ask these questions:
I will add my views in more detail later, but regarding what is written above I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...Quote:
I have always puzzled about the enthusiasm for Hi-Fi valve amps. For me I just don't see it, they lack so much musical information, even more so with the older type 300B type designs. Yes they sound nice, yes they are easy to listen to, but!
Well I have come to a conclusion - bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music. Now this is obviously going to be controversial, but bare with me. Get the two types of hi-fi enthusiast to describe their preferences and see the language they use, and invariably the bottle heads use sound words. Do the same with sandheads and you get music words. Both are intangables that are very open to interpretation, but it is there consistantly. The whole flat earth BS was built on music words, pace rythme and timing being the most obvious and the typical flat earth amp accentuates those characteristics. Where as the bottleheads nearly always describe the experience in sound words like smooth, silk like, softer more laid back (just used in a post to me) a singer described by his / her tonal characteristics as opposed to inflection and note structure and tonal *information* and structure.
I also find it fascinating that bottleheads use the argument that musos use valves mostly in amplification, but this is a red herring and for me it is obvious why. I muso is looking for a sound, it is his instrument, he is creating the music with that instrument sound. For Hi-Fi it is different, we are not creating a sound we are reproducing that persons music!
Now both of these choices are are in all of us, it is just some go off one way and some go the other, it is an intellectual decision. But once established as the things we look for to be taken the other way is difficult, it takes a leap or change of perspective / faith, this is why converts are usually the most vocal and adamant as they have an agenda to support.
There is crossover over or compromise between the two as with hybrids and more (so called) solid state sounding valve amps, but note the word "sounding", then we are looking at solid state as sound and not music.
Controversial I know but it is a conclusion I have come to.
Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...
I thought as there are plenty of 'bottle heads' here on AOS that it would be intriguing to pose these questions to you :)
<Discuss>
Here’s a challenge:
Select a piece of music and tell us what it is, then listen to it through your system and describe your experience. It should then indicate if you value 'musical differences' or 'sound differences'.
Marco.
I suggest everybody reads the PFM thread first. IMHO I think it's baloney, it's too black and white and ultimately pointless, my 2p worth.
Indeed, Neal. Like I said:
The latter is of course bollocks.Quote:
Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...
I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...
Who's to say that someone, for example, who values tone and timbre in the presentation of his or her valve equipment when listening to music isn't as much of a music lover as someone who values 'PRAT' with music on their ss amp?? The insinuation to the contrary is a massive generalisation and an acute example of grossly simplistic thinking.
It doesn't matter one iota how you describe listening to music on your valve or ss-based system - what matters is that you're listening to and enjoying music, period.
I think that a certain 'sand amp' manufacturer has an agenda all of his own ;)
Still like to know what people's thoughts are, though!
Marco.
I moved from a valve-based system to a transistor-based system some years ago. I didn't care about the technology and the things I listen for in music have stayed the same. There just isn't a black-and-white recipe mix for valves or transistors and I could quote valve equipment that sounds like trannies and solid-state equipment that definitely sounds like valves. It's all about circuit design and implementation.
I believe you can get great performance from valve or SS and also downright awful from both systems.
As for that guy's comment 'well it reminds me of a certain Chris Frankland who was forever banging on about why Linn and Naim systems are for genuine music lovers and if you liked valve amps and the like ' you were an imagery freak or soundstage fanatic.
I believe you can get great performance from valve or SS and also downright awful from both systems.
As for that guy's comment 'well it reminds me of a certain Chris Frankland who was forever banging on about why Linn and Naim systems are for genuine music lovers and if you liked valve amps and the like ' you were an imagery freak or soundstage fanatic.
agreed!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinT
A...
Indeed, Chris. Perhaps we should set our membership the question:
Define what is considered as a "genuine music lover"? That should keep folk going for a few weeks!!
Martin gets it spot on here, as others and myself have said many times:
I moved from Naim NAC52/NAP135s and ECS 200W ss monoblocks to my current TD 30W Class A Copper P/P valve amp and Croft Charisma-X valve preamp, and it does 'PRAT' every bit as well as the former did, and everything else better! I'm sure that anyone who heard the AOS system at the Scalford Hall show would say that 'pace rhythm & timing' wasn't exactly missing! :eyebrows:Quote:
It's all about circuit design and implementation.
All of which simply means that I can access more of the 'music' in my music collection, if you see my meaning, and also be in the position where *I* choose what's played and not my system...
Thing is, there are a lot of shit valve amps out there which give 'the side' a bad name - and many of them represent expensive shit, too! That's the problem. The fact is, outside of the D.I.Y arena and some Chinese imports it costs serious money to buy a genuinely good, musically capable, valve amp. Aside from circuit design and implementation, high quality mains and output transformers, often hand-wound in the best examples (and other bespoke components), which are central to achieving the above, don't come cheap!!
For that reason, not that many people (out with of D.I.Yers) who are used to buying 'mainstream' hi-fi have been exposed to what a great valve amp can do, and so often arrive at false conclusions based on limited experience. Indeed, I would conclude that anyone who thinks valve amps "lack so much musical information" have never heard a really good one! ;)
Marco.
Well my current system is not my my best or most expensive but i enjoy listening to it and i find it hard to walk away from sometimes especially the turntable ' so the techie must be doing it for me, i listen to it and i just lose myself and float off somewhere.
Does that mean i am a music lover or imagery freak' ohh by the way the snell's are not great imaging sort of speakers anyway.
You're a genuine music lover with a good stereo....
I can't go more than a couple of days without music of some sort. Lack of funds and time prevents me buying any or much more new music to enjoy, but my music collection is vast enough to find a fair bit of variety.
I answered on the PFM question. It matters not what technology is used if the implentation is right. A good amp shouldn't have a "sound" anyway (as much as possible) but there is something very comforting about the appearance of a valve amp I found and I regret that the Croft is in a cabinet so I can't see through the mesh top...
I am in the unfortunate position to never have heard a really good valve amp. But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!Quote:
For that reason, not that many people (out with of D.I.Yers) who are used to buying 'mainstream' hi-fi have been exposed to what a great valve amp can do, and so often arrive at false conclusions based on limited experience. I would conclude that anyone who thinks that valve amps "lack so much musical information" have never heard a really good one!
Hahaha... Priceless! :lolsign:Quote:
But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!
Marco.
Amen Brother Kalozosis...Quote:
Originally Posted by kalozois100
I will take part in this thread properly when I am back up and running valve wise. Interestingly for the last week and a bit I have been using my Chapter Audio Signature pre and Cuplet power amplifier and,.... well its not half bad(but is it half good or better ?).... I may well do a full write up comparison of Valve and Solid State in my set up, when I bring my RM200 amp back into the downstairs system.
I read the full thread on PFM and well....Richard's question is an interesting one. To my mind its about how we listen and how we describe listening. In away you could say that it is impossible or very difficult to describe how music sounds on either a valve amplifier or solid state one, without falling back on the tried and tested terms we all have used to try and describe the sound of how those item and how they reproduce the music played on them.
I don't believe that those who listen to valve based systems do so for a sound and those who listen to solid state don't, but listen to music :confused:how can that be stated ? There is nothing to say that many choose SS instead of valves because wait for it....THEY prefer the sound of SS amplification.
The neutrality question.....vs flavour something Marco asked about a while ago is an interesting aspect of this. Should a system reproduce without adding anything to the recording being played. Maybe and maybe not. The difficult question is...unless you where there, how do you know, that what you are hearing isn't the way the recording is supposed to sound;or not as the case maybe. If its live this may be possible but if not, well what about the way the band/musicians and producer want it to sound. How do you know ? Its not as simple as such and such sounds that way or so and so sounds that way when singing...there are lots of variables in this just as there are in putting an audio system together.
What is the truth...? How should instruments and singer sound like ? Even if you are very knowledgeable about the sound signature of an instrument the place where it is played recorded will have an effect on the final sound, as to will the state of your ears or if you have a cold or not. So that sound signature may be altered by the acoustic it is in.
All audio systems fail to reproduce the sound of music in some way, a perfect beast does not exist that I know of and our listening rooms will always have the final say. So should we not bother...of course we should. If its your passion like mine you will care about getting the system that suits you (should it ?) and your room (it must do this to work right). Its a journey and it is different and similar for some of us but should be fun at the end of the day.
I love music..I have thousands of recordings on vinyl, cd and tapes (plus I go to concerts when interesting ones come up) does this make me any more into listening to MUSIC than the guy or gal who only has a few hundred....I would say No.
I don't think it is possible to describe MUSIC without referring to SOUND, after all music is sound...and all those terms have to be used to provide points of reference. Can it be possible to describe music on valve or ss kit...without it falling into describing the characteristics of that kit....we shall see.
Regards D S D L
Glad you all liked my comment - it was totally spontaneous:lol:Quote:
But then again i wasn't around for Jesus's resurrection either but i strongly believe it happened!!
Yeah valve owners admire valves optically as well as audioably from what i've read. Personally i have never got over how good valves looked in re runs of Flash Gordan back in late seventies when i was a youngster. the sets where loaded with them. Even on a black and white tv with the room lights off they looked awesome!! Ah yes and what about all those friday night horror black and white films. Full of valves too. In Black and white frankenstein films he needed loads of them valves to come back from the dead!!
It wasn't electricity that resurrected him but listening to valve music.:lol: its the movie industries most guarded secret!
I think am on a roll and i havent even got valve gear:eyebrows:
One interesting comparison i did way back in 1997 , i had just bought a pair of 2nd audio mon's with 2a3 triodes and a/b it against my Concordant Exemplar 100 SS amp built for Doug Dunlop by Les Wolstenholm none other.
The difference was quite simply dramatic 'forget about tone/timbre/soundstage and the like ,there was a guy with me who was buying the Concordant.
He put it so perfectly ,we listened to Beethoven i think and his reaction to the 2nd audio's was OMG the orchestra's there ,it was like pulling the curtains away from the speakers or moving from the back of the theater to the front row.
Reading the lastest on pfm, I couldn't help but giggle (rather uncontrolably) at this from 'Bourney', an ex-customer of Mr Dunn's and the person whose comments he was referring to when starting the thread:
Hahahaha... Et Voilà! The agenda, exposed in all its glory... Priceless! :lol:Quote:
I am sure you can see i dont take things personal and i dont take hifi that serious either.its just for fun.i only listen to music for fun and to make me sing along and to lighten my mood, distract or relax me, i have no deeper technical interest in music I am afraid. i dont care about interaction wth musicians, the sound of the cleaner in the next studio or the acoustics of the hall it was recorded in, i only care if i like the song and if my stereo can play it without it interfering with me hearing it how i like to hear it, coloured or not.
However as an afterthought to the above, you made it personally directed at me by saying that ` i dont get it' and it is my posts that initiated you starting the thread....and thats fine. i do however recall you saying very recently that you liked my attitude to music and hifi, whereas you dont seem to feel the same way since i chose to stick with my valve amps ;)
I don't think any further comment on the subject is needed. One wonders why Tony allows it the bandwidth. Incidentally, I totally agree with Bourney's remarks here:
That pretty much sums me up, too, and why I rarely engage in lengthy and often painfully dull 'intellectual dissertations' about music, seemingly popular and considered de rigueur by the cognoscenti before being officially labelled as a 'genuine music lover'. I would never claim to have the diverse musical knowledge of, say, Beechy, Chris, John or Snapper, but I bet that I enjoy listening to it and derive as much pleasure from it as they do!Quote:
i only listen to music for fun and to make me sing along and to lighten my mood, distract or relax me, i have no deeper technical interest in music I am afraid.
Perhaps *that* is why some of us ('bottle heads', or 'sandboys') don't always describe differences in music when using hi-fi equipment with the panache of a musician or 'music geek', despite listening to it and enjoying it daily. And for those of you who consider yourself as a "music geek", I use the term with no offence intended - far from it, I would love to have your knowledge :)
Why does everything have to be so 'black and white' for some people? Absolutism is the root cause of so much that is wrong with hi-fi and the enjoyment of music, and as such has much to answer for!
Enjoying recorded music has got bugger all to do with the type equipment we use or how much we love music or 'sound', but rather *how* we listen to music, what we derive from it in an emotive sense, and what stimulates our brain. How 'seriously' we take the analysing and deconstructing of it - or indeed whether we're interested in doing that at all, or obtaining a historic and encyclopaedic knowledge of a multitude of artists and genres, has no bearing on our 'status' as a music lover. Human behaviour isn't that simple!
I suspect that for many of us, what Bourney describes above is all that's needed for our choice of music to hit the spot nicely, without some futile attempt at analysing the performance of our amplifiers (valve or 'sand') with the predilections of a trained musician.
In summary, Mr Dunn wants to neatly pidgeonhole valve and ss users into categories which suit his (commercial) preferences as a designer of 'sand amps' in order to justfy his beliefs and convince himself that he is 'right', which sadly demonstrates more than a little insecurity to accompany his already narcissistic tendencies.
Marco.
Marco,Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
You should reach unheard of pleasure levels when listen to the albums that are currently ambling their way to you (faster than a speeding pullet courtesy of the Royal Mail). This will be the case whether you listen to them through valves or solid state - guaranteed!!
PS Still waiting to read your reply to: Analysis Paralysis http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2739
Nice one, Chris. I look forward to their arrival and will report in the music room after listening.
I can't promise that it will all be 'musical' observations, though!! According to the 'cognoscenti', as a valve amp user I'm not allowed to be into music......... :lol: ;)
Sorry; I had forgotten all about that. I promise I'll get to it later :smoking:Quote:
PS Still waiting to read your reply to: Analysis Paralysis http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2739
Marco.
Valve amps ROOL!!! :lolsign:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Marco
I remember a salesman & a group of his acolytes pouring scourn & derision in a very vicious way, and in public, upon me because I had the temerity to make the observation that I didn't think the gear he was demonstrating conveyed much of a sense of a soundstage.
I walked away vowing never to put a penny in certain people's pockets (dealers & manufacturers), leaving them tittering to themselves - they no doubt went back to tapping their feet in a highly rhythmic manner. Now that is SALESMANSHIP!!
I can't help wondering why certain manufacturers bother to sell speakers in pairs if "a soundstage is irrelevant" - their words...........ho hum
It has been said that talking [writing] about music is like dancing about architechture.
Enough said, although talking about music is fine in the section allocated to this particular purpose.
Specific references to music programme in hi-fi reviewing are useful but not essential.
Specific references are only meaningful when they are used to elaborate a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Alternatively, it is of course very useful when the reader intimately knows the recording being used and their system has the same shortcomings as the writer's system had before. (I don't know...........something like a hump in the mid-bass perhaps............? .....ahem!)
That's all fine as far as it goes, but it leads to things like every exhibitor in a show using the same album - Dark Side of the Moon, anyone.....Dire Straits, for God's sake............
The ultimate conclusion is that you only listen to what makes your system sound 'good' and that's not what a hi-fi is for is it?
A few quotes from Frank Zappa are called for here.....
'Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, uses that something to support their own existence'.
'One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds'.
And this, I feel is kind of relavent to digital music -
'The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows'.
I like that - how true! I think that Mr Dunn should acknowledge that he comes into this category with regard to his choice of hi-fi equipment the same as anyone else! ;)Quote:
Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, uses that something to support their own existence
I completely agree, Chris. In that context they can be extremely meaningful, but *only* if someone else knows the piece of music being referred to as intimately as the person making the reference - and that is far from always the case. Otherwise, they are virtually meaningless.Quote:
Specific references are only meaningful when they are used to elaborate a point.
I find this particularly true when people use Classical music as a reference, which is something I rarely listen to. My eyes glaze over, as they may as well be talking about Champagne than Chopin.
I think all we can do when describing equipment in relation to music or 'sound' is write what's genuine and comes from the heart - and hope that someone else relates to it in the way we do, rather than attempting to analyse the relationship between music and hi-fi through the eyes of Karajan.
Marco.
There's another quotation that I love which is particularly apt here. It goes something like:
'If the only tool that you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail'
(Abraham Maslow).
I used to use it quite a lot in reference to the foreign policies of a certain Mr Bush!
Yours open mindedly
Chris
I agree only to a point. If you describe to me the sound of a system using, say, big band music my eyes may well glaze over too, but you could still impart useful information about the acoustic, dynamics, stereo staging etc. that I could understand. When I describe my system using classical music as a reference, I do try to confer a general idea of performance rather than just wax lyrical over the music, which I understand has minority interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
By the way, when a friend wants to listen to my system I usually suggest they bring their own music. However, I will always play them one classical piece as I believe it brings more understanding about performance but, more importantly, it often generates a surprising interest in what I'm playing. Classical just doesn't register on people's horizons but it doesn't mean there isn't latent interest waiting to be piqued.
Hi Martin,
I think that's very true, and indeed is something I try to do when describing equipment, as no doubt you'll have noticed :)Quote:
I agree only to a point. If you describe to me the sound of a system using, say, big band music my eyes may well glaze over too, but you could still impart useful information about the acoustic, dynamics, stereo staging etc. that I could understand.
I don't think that you can ever include too much information in such circumstances, but I also don't think that it's appropriate or meritorious to gauge someone's 'status' as a music lover depending on how they relate to music through the performance of their equipment, which is effectively what the infamous Mr Dunn is attempting to do in order to classify solid-state amplifiers as the de facto choice of music lovers.
All you achieve then is to make people feel paranoid and question themselves (am I a 'genuine' music lover or just a 'hi-fi freak'?) and in return stifle any interest they may have had in expressing their choice of equipment in musical terms - in fact, for the more easily influenced amongst us, you could stop people contributing altogether! People 'get' what they get when listening to their systems, and so should be left alone to get on with it.
What's important is that you stay true to yourself and that what is written is genuine and heart-felt, and not some contrived 'epistle' designed to impress or appease the sensibilities of the 'cognoscenti' in an attempt to appear as 'knowledgeable' amongst one's peers.
Good point, and how very true.Quote:
By the way, when a friend wants to listen to my system I usually suggest they bring their own music. However, I will always play them one classical piece as I believe it brings more understanding about performance but, more importantly, it often generates a surprising interest in what I'm playing. Classical just doesn't register on people's horizons but it doesn't mean there isn't latent interest waiting to be piqued.
Don't get me wrong, I like Classical music - just not sitting listening to it at home. It's a different ball game when my wife and I sometimes attend a ballet or go to see the BBC National Orchestra of Wales play live at one of the local halls, where there is some form of 'visual stimulus' to accompany the undoubtedly beautiful music.
Without the visual stimulus of dancing or watching an orchestra in full flow, Classical music struggles to hold my attention, which is why I can't 'get into' it at home. I enjoy mostly music that's 'funky', rhythmic and beat-driven, and preferably with vocals present - something you can tap your feet to. 'Instrumentals', therefore, aren't really my thing, although I enjoy Jazz music - for me it's got more 'soul', and I mean in the 'black' sense of the word. It isn't 'po-faced' in the way of Classical, if you see what I mean. I also love listening to talented or interesting/unusual vocalists, but find Opera, for example, somewhat 'heavy', so Rock and Pop, etc, suits my tastes much better - that's just me :smoking:
One thing I do dislike immensely is the snobbery and pretentiousness which often perpetrates the following of Classical music, such that one can almost sense the snooty disdain of aficionados when declaring a relative non-interest in the genre; and this is sadly quite prevalent in the music section of some other forums.
Marco.
Hear hear! I come across snootiness in both the Festival Hall and the Hammersmith Apollo, it seems to occur whenever people have narrow-minded views about music instead of enjoying a wide range of genres. For me, a Joan Armatrading song can be as emotional and direct as Mozart's Requiem. There is no need to choose, just to acknowledge the creativity of such masters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
There are few things that make me as frustrated as musical snobbery does. I also detest the term 'Serious Music' as is often applied to it - the most serious piece of music I know is 'Man of the World' by Fleetwood Mac - why is it less worthy than say, Haydn's Violin Concerto No. 2 in D major for example?Quote:
One thing I do dislike immensely is the snobbery which often perpetrates the following of Classical music, such that one can almost sense the snooty disdain of aficionados when declaring a relative non-interest in the genre, and this is sadly quite prevalent in the music section of some other forums.
I love Classical music, but it's not my main interest. The body of 'Classical' work was produced between 1750 to 1825, and by a handful of composers, usually commissioned by the aristocracy in order to boost their already over-inflated egos. Most of the rest of music was made by and for real people with real lives - I know which I think is the more serious!
However, my life is richer for having a wider ranging taste in music than the bigots - those with that attitude are the ones who are losing out - let them get on with it.
Chris
Hear Hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
All styles of music are important because they have been written/composed for enjoyment by a wider audience. Just because a particular type of music is personally disliked doesn't diminish its importance. For example, I happen to dislike rap music and hip-hop, however I recognise the skill and talent involved and the fact that a lot of people out there do like it; it is no way less important than any other form of music.
It also follows that music reproduction systems, regardless of the technology used, are there to serve anything that's put through them, whether that might be music composed in the 13th century, heavy metal, jazz, the spoken word, opera, birdsong, etc. ..........(oh! and rap and hip-hop)
Regards
Barry
I absolutely adore valves and would dearly love a pair of Icon Audio monoblock KT88 power amps but I have now found a system that is real music to my ears and so on that basis, I am sticking with what I have. My main issue with valve amplifiers is the cost per unit pleasure. How this would be measurable I do not know but as they are just so expensive, I'll have to give them a miss from now on.
I recently bought a pair of Audiolab 8000M monoblocks for 490 pounds all in that are two years old. Where oh were could I find a pair of mono valve power amps for the same money...??? As stated, I now have a system that produces for me, 'That sound'. I'm hoping I don't get the upgrade bug just for the sake of it as I really do want to expand my vinyl collection from now on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Sums it up beautifully. Well said sir!
"Man Of The World" was my anthem for years - a wonderful song!
There is another aspect to this debate which has nothing to do with the sound or musical qualities of audio gear but everything to do with the psychological make up of the listener. I find it enough of a PITA sometimes being into vinyl and constantly worrying about scratches/fingerprints/dust/worn or (horror) chipped styli but to add in another set of variables in the form of toobs would freak me out no end. I know I'm being neurotic but I just couldn't live with a valve amp forever fretting over such things as has the bias drifted, was that valve glowing that bright yesterday, did it take this long to warm up etc etc.
Obviously if none of this bothers you then fine but the major trauma I've just been through having to get my pre amp recapped (it's 11 years old) no sir not for me I'd be a jibbering wreck within a week of owning a valve amp.:eek::eek:
Cheers
Mr. Sandman, sorry, Ralph
Hi RalphQuote:
Originally Posted by REM
It goes with the territory...but I can appreciate where you are coming from. For me most of the time the quality I get from the valve products I use out weigh the issues.....until they happen and then I ask my self long hard question like you ask. I shake my head and smile at the years of listening pleasure given via glowing glass and I just get on with it.
It is worth it IMHO.
Regards D S D L
The tweakiness of valve amps is one of the things I love about them.It's very satisfying substantially improving the sound by changing a coupling cap or trying some new valves.
Talking the merits of tube vs SS is fun, and can go on for days, months, years. Even within the tube community, you can debate endlessly over SET vs Push Pull...hell, you can even debate which 300B is better in a SET design.
But at the end of the day, audio is about listening. And luckily, we all come equipped with the best testing devices ever invented...our ears.
When I want to convince someone about the merits of tube (SET to be precise), I don't say anything...I invite them over for a nice cocktail and a listen.
The procedure is very simple...
1. Sit them in a comfortable listening chair (mine happens to be a vintage Karuselli chair designed by Yrjö Kukkapuro)
2. Put on Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed
3. Listen
Assimilation complete.
Only on your third post and I can see you will fit in here brilliantly..... Great music (love Holly Cole...Temptation particularly), designer furniture, and taste in gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Flicker
"We will get most of them in the end...oh yes we will" ;)Resistance is futile...
http://www.e-potpourri.com/index.php...h-bond-appeal/
The chair mentioned..
I like this one http://www.e-potpourri.com/wp-conten...hair-white.jpghttp://www.e-potpourri.com/wp-conten...hair-black.jpg
Regards D S D L
Mine is a vintage one in nicely aged/caramelized leather, and a slightly altered model to the "ususal" one. Very comfy. An essential, but often overlooked key component of any hi-fi set up.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8921/11189221.jpg
I love all her stuff, except the latest left me a little wanting for some reason. Or perhaps it was that her local jazz diva rival (Molly Johnson) just seems a bit better these days.Quote:
love Holly Cole...Temptation particularly
If you like Holly, you might like the recording her band (Pitch & Davis) put out back in the 90's called Feast.
Female jazz voices and 300B tubes is a combo few can resist. 300B midrange magic is usually what clinches the deal regardless of what the plus-minus columns look like.Quote:
We will get most of them in the end...oh yes we will" Resistance is futile...
Ah thats a nice chair. I will have to look out for Feast. I agree about 300B tubes but to my taste I prefer 6c33c's or 845...more power and most of the subtlety of a 300B...though not all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Flicker
Regards D S D L
I was a little concerned about lacking power when I put the 300B SET in my system with the existing speakers. They are apparently 91db, which is borderline speaker efficiency if you want decent spls when required.
I was pleasantly surprised how powerful my 1005DT is (as opposed to an earlier 300B SET it replaced), and can produce serious volume levels without ever having to go beyond 12 O'clock regardless of the recording I'm listening to. Clipping isn't a major problem with tubes anyway, but I think it's rarely even mildly clipping.
I seriously considered the 845 for the extra power, and the 6c33c wasn't even on my radar at the time, but I guess I have become a bit of a die-hard 300B fan, and I'm glad/lucky I don't suffer from power envy on my current set up.
But I am a bit fickle, so who knows what the future will bring.
Back to Holly...I hear her stuff is out on 200g virgin vinyl (not sure if vinyl is your thing), and cut from the original master on Bernie Grundman's all-tube cutting system.
Yes vinyl is my thing....Holly on vinyl, that would be excellent. Thanks for the info I will check it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Flicker
Regards D S D L
Our ears may be fairly adequate, but the thing that processes the info given - our brain - is the most temperamental and easily fooled device of all, so there!!!!!!!!!
Amazing how many audible "differences" disappear when sight is taken away from the equation.
If you think I'm having a go again, I'm not. I can't wait to get the Quad II's running again and rue the fact I have my Croft pre in a cabinet, when I want to look inside and see the warm orangey glow from within (mine has a thick "mesh" top)..
All good fun and I do envy those who can afford something that sounds wonderful and also looks the part :)
hi, there, all,
just finished reading the previous pages - great discussion :)
to join up, i myself am a valve afficionado for ~25 years - with some derailment towards sand amps...
and why converted back? for MUSIC, in capitals, so simple the reason is.
in details, first i used ss amps (of course) since they were the only equipment produced for listening to music available here. i live in hungary, and all hi-fi madness came from the west, in the '80s, in the form of, first, the quad 405, then, in home-made sand amps (rather, replicas of western related gear), and later hungarian-designed and made real hi-fi equipment. in the late '80s the first audio dealers appeared carrying creek, ion, cambridge audio, musical fidelity, cyrus - and Audio Innovations and Audio Note. and that was something that made a real change...
i remember a show held in a relatively big city hall, where all the AI line was presented as building up from the smallest to the most competitive firing in the end via AN E speakers and backed by the Voyd TT range, using only 'normal press' LPs. it was then when i got perfectly obsessed with the valve thing, and have remained so up till now.
in the meantime i switched for some ss amps including various creek amps, and our truly outstanding Etalon gear, finally even the YBA and its variants, but none could convey the musical expression that tubes are capable of.
however, here i must emphasise, just as some other mates have done before, i am speaking about 'correctly designed and built' tube amps.
the model i lived the most with was not a pricey make: AI's Series 400 MK I (at ebay, when it extremely rarely appears, price is below 400 pounds). but this pp used class a and applied no feedback at all, thus, produced MUSIC with PRaT, emotion, air, transparency - everything i was and still am after when deciding on taking an amp home. the design was actually the same as that of the AN Oto Phono, mr. Qvortrup when switched for AN after his AI period, just re-cased and re-named it as that...
BUT now i 'evolved' to be a convert. why?, you may ask, with a good reason. which may sound even more silly when explained, even knowing that when i decided to go tranny i had an YBA Integré DT Delta at home for a week to make the decision well-founded - and the little AI S400 performed over the 5-times costlier YBA in all aspects of MUSIC and hi-fi...
then why? i can not determine whether it is laziness or truly financial considerations mixed with reliability issues... but the reason is the valves themselves. simply put, i got a bit tired of changing the power tubes in every 2nd year, and the others in 3-4 years, and when a n.o.s. tube goes down before it's due, to replace it in the pair or the quad for the best sonics... that's what made me step the change.
however, what i was after in terms of 'valve sound' i managed to find in only one manufacturer's gear: Croft's. no other sand-make could come that close to tube sound that the Croft Integrated (and the other Crofts may as well be also capable of) can. there is only one minor caveat that i am not truly in terms with it, if you're interested you can read it in the accordingly titled topic here, but this Croft is by far the best ss amp with a true valve voicing i ever heard. thus, if anyone is for a sand make, do not miss it - provided you're happy enough to grab one for its being discontinued...
... and never to return..
Never fear, the new pre/power combo may well be even better and not that expensive at £1400 or so...
hi, may i ask you, please, to elaborate what d'ya mean by this note? i believe it must do a lot with what was just hinted at at the croft topic, but the point was not truly discussed there, and as an outsider from hungary, i learnt only that there something went pretty wrong between mr. Croft and that Amar guy... so? :scratch: thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DSJR
hi some lovely seats there ,but you would be a little nervous letting me sitting on them at over 20 stone ,
i havent read all posts, but a little on my findings on 300b using a arion 300b single ended we had access to jj tesla , cetron, kron, western electric, output valves ,
a beautiful wife friendly sound ,very nice ,very warm and kind ,and the bass which initially sounded big, is an exagerated one . there was a slight veil which im not sure if other amplifier designs could remove , i am not being critical it is still a very fine sound,top class , some other issues these 300bs are now being auctioned so nos is to expensive , a lot of the 300b users have converted to type 50s which are mostly rca and western electric sylvania in bulbous shape and standard coke bottle shape both the 50 and 300b valves were used in a western electric cinema amp
so the type 50s are still quite available and 300b amps can be converted a little less power so ill read more of the posts and contribute my bit later