Valve sound versus solid state...

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil,

If you have not heard it already, you may want to listen to the YBA Integre integrated amp or it's less expensive brother, the Audio Refinement Complete integrated amplifier (which I own). Both were designed by Yves-Bernard André of YBA, a French electronics firm widely admired for their rigorously, if sometimes unconventionally, applied engineering. Both amps sound tube-like with no harshness or grain. Yet both are VERY detailed with excellent soundstaging and a realistic presentation of the musicians/vocalists.

Cheers,

Kurt

Hi Kurt

Yes YBA is nice kit. I used to work for the company who first brought YBA to the UK back in the early 90's and I liked the CDP (though the business of it sounding better with its lid partly open was a bit strange). I have never heard the amps. I will keep an open mind. So far the best type of SS I have heard tends to be class A and Mosfet based, but still I think they lack that natural magic of tubes.

Regards D S D L---Neil

[anthonyTD]

Hi Kurt

Yes YBA is nice kit. I used to work for the company who first brought YBA to the UK back in the early 90's and I liked the CDP (though the business of it

sounding better with its lid partly open was a bit strange

. I have never heard the amps. I will keep an open mind. So far the best type of SS I have heard tends to be class A and Mosfet based, but still I think they lack that natural magic of tubes.

Regards D S D L---Neil

hi neil,
yes, very odd that, but i tend to agree about the best sounding SS amps being class A.
anthony,TD...

[kalozois100]

I have always been interested in valve amps after listening to the same turntable hooked up to solid state then a valve amp. the latter dropped my lower jaw to the floor . The cost always scarred me but recently these chinese types are opening up the market to budgeteers like myself. Should I go for something used or a chinese like the one below or even a yakin pre amp as an option. ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ming-Da-MC84-C...1%7C240%3A1318

[Spectral Morn]

I have always been interested in valve amps after listening to the same turntable hooked up to solid state then a valve amp. the latter dropped my lower jaw to the floor . The cost always scarred me but recently these chinese types are opening up the market to budgeteers like myself. Should I go for something used or a chinese like the one below or even a yakin pre amp as an option. ?

HI kalozois100

Not sure about that, it might be Ming Da but yet again not. Anybody know for sure ? Looks poor to my eyes, case works not very good - Ming Da is better.

With Chinese amps I would be very careful. there are a lot of very poor ones out there. Set for 220 volts and barely capable of handling that, they over heat, burn through valves or blow up. If you want cheapish but good quality and with a UK warranty I would look at Fat man (Clones of/re badged/ re-worked Dared amps), David Shaw's (reworked/re-designed, same case work as Ming Da amplifiers) Icon Audio or Pure Sound bit dearer but best of the lot IMHO.

A Pure Sound ex demo or S/H, if it suits your speakers (must be reasonably easy to drive and as close to 8 ohms as possible) would be your best option. Try and find a dealer who has one (that falls into the options I mentioned) and have a listen. S/H Icon Audio Stereo 40 also a good option.


Regards D S D L---Neil

[Togil]

Anyone tried the German/Chinese amps from Cayin ?

[Marco]

Some questions...

Do people who use valve equipment describe how their system handles the reproduction of music using terminology related to 'sound' or 'music'?

For example, do 'bottle heads' (a rather quaint expression) value the presentational aspects of reproduction more (tone, timbre, soundstaging, etc) than that which 'communicates the musical message' (pace, rhythm, timing, etc)?

As a 'bottle head', is the 'sound' of music more important to you than emotional communication? Are you prone to describing 'sound differences' rather than 'musical differences' when analysing how your valve amp or system handles music?

This post over on pfm is what prompted me to ask these questions:

I have always puzzled about the enthusiasm for Hi-Fi valve amps. For me I just don't see it, they lack so much musical information, even more so with the older type 300B type designs. Yes they sound nice, yes they are easy to listen to, but!

Well I have come to a conclusion - bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music. Now this is obviously going to be controversial, but bare with me. Get the two types of hi-fi enthusiast to describe their preferences and see the language they use, and invariably the bottle heads use sound words. Do the same with sandheads and you get music words. Both are intangables that are very open to interpretation, but it is there consistantly. The whole flat earth BS was built on music words, pace rythme and timing being the most obvious and the typical flat earth amp accentuates those characteristics. Where as the bottleheads nearly always describe the experience in sound words like smooth, silk like, softer more laid back (just used in a post to me) a singer described by his / her tonal characteristics as opposed to inflection and note structure and tonal *information* and structure.

I also find it fascinating that bottleheads use the argument that musos use valves mostly in amplification, but this is a red herring and for me it is obvious why. I muso is looking for a sound, it is his instrument, he is creating the music with that instrument sound. For Hi-Fi it is different, we are not creating a sound we are reproducing that persons music!

Now both of these choices are are in all of us, it is just some go off one way and some go the other, it is an intellectual decision. But once established as the things we look for to be taken the other way is difficult, it takes a leap or change of perspective / faith, this is why converts are usually the most vocal and adamant as they have an agenda to support.

There is crossover over or compromise between the two as with hybrids and more (so called) solid state sounding valve amps, but note the word "sounding", then we are looking at solid state as sound and not music.

Controversial I know but it is a conclusion I have come to.

I will add my views in more detail later, but regarding what is written above I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...

Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...

I thought as there are plenty of 'bottle heads' here on AOS that it would be intriguing to pose these questions to you

<Discuss>

Here’s a challenge:

Select a piece of music and tell us what it is, then listen to it through your system and describe your experience. It should then indicate if you value 'musical differences' or 'sound differences'.

Marco.

[NRG]

I suggest everybody reads the PFM thread first. IMHO I think it's baloney, it's too black and white and ultimately pointless, my 2p worth.

[Marco]

Indeed, Neal. Like I said:

Surely everyone derives something different from enjoying reproduced music on a hi-fi system? After all, people 'connect' with music in different ways. It matters not which 'sound' or 'musical' aspects of your equipment draw you into the music, as long as you're listening to music in the first place...

I would say that the notion that "bottle heads are looking for sound - sand heads are looking for music" implies that there is only one true, 'correct', way of appreciating music: that which is preferred and deemed as 'correct' by the author of the above, and thus everything else is 'wrong', or perhaps more accurately, 'not as right'...

The latter is of course bollocks.

Who's to say that someone, for example, who values tone and timbre in the presentation of his or her valve equipment when listening to music isn't as much of a music lover as someone who values 'PRAT' with music on their ss amp?? The insinuation to the contrary is a massive generalisation and an acute example of grossly simplistic thinking.

It doesn't matter one iota how you describe listening to music on your valve or ss-based system - what matters is that you're listening to and enjoying music, period.

I think that a certain 'sand amp' manufacturer has an agenda all of his own

Still like to know what people's thoughts are, though!

Marco.

[MartinT]

I moved from a valve-based system to a transistor-based system some years ago. I didn't care about the technology and the things I listen for in music have stayed the same. There just isn't a black-and-white recipe mix for valves or transistors and I could quote valve equipment that sounds like trannies and solid-state equipment that definitely sounds like valves. It's all about circuit design and implementation.

[chris@panteg]

I believe you can get great performance from valve or SS and also downright awful from both systems.

As for that guy's comment 'well it reminds me of a certain Chris Frankland who was forever banging on about why Linn and Naim systems are for genuine music lovers and if you liked valve amps and the like ' you were an imagery freak or soundstage fanatic.