I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
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I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Why don't we find out sometime then, Dave? Much would depend on the phono stage the A23 was partnered with, but I'd be very interested to hear the results :)Quote:
For those with solid state amplifiers does the A23 outperform the FET A.N.T. Kora I wonder?
You see, we can all waffle on forums all day, spouting our biases, but the proof of the pudding is always in the listening. How many are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Incidentally, I'm not referring here to you.
I suspect that some of the more vociferous amongst us are more confident of their opinions than others, and thus aren't shy of exposing them to the harshest of scrutiny ;)
Marco.
Sorry, Chris, I don't get what you mean. We're talking about a review of the 103SA, not the Techy. The two are separate and not mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grand Wazoo
Marco.
Hi Marco
What I meant was, for solid state guys, only the A.N.T. Kora set to load the 103 properly. No transformer, no valves, for those that would prefer it that way? How would it compare? :kiss: Remember FET's are most excellent in the tuneful distortion stakes.................
If it worked it would widen the options for potential users?
Regards
:bag:
Dave
Richard, I thought we were supposed to be talking about classic cartridges, yet suddenly the floodgates open! You write that,
"Why do people still bother to read magazines, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line."
Two points here. I don't know about "users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls" (what is all this jargon?), but everyday people don't live to polemicise on forums, they want to buy stuff to listen to music with - and they want the best possible sound and/or the gear that suits their pocket/room/tastes best. What with modern life being so hectic, they don't have time to endlessly search forums, blogs, the web, etc. for the received wisdom of people such as yourself - however neutral and impartial it may be. They want clearly presented reviews, backed up with technical measurements to demonstrate, at least in part, why they sound as they do. Obviously, you don't - but your situation is obviously different to most as you seem more interested in the politics of hi-fi journalism than hi-fi? (Well, certainly your decision to go off-topic on this thread suggests this). So don't confuse your own imperatives with those of the general buying public...
The second point is, the online/offline thing is a distinction that will become less and less important - you're right, most things are migrating online, but one thing you can't do online is compare two cartridges on your MacBook Pro. By and large, that requires dealers. Now, they may be very different to the established chains you see in the high street in five years, but they will still be there, and far more attuned to buyer's needs ('cos they'll have to be), and they'll be online (as a point of contact) and offline when demming kit. You seem to be trying to establish a false opposition here; dealers (and mags) will simply do some things online, others off. "The industry as a whole" will pick and choose which medium suits it far more astutely than it does now, and act accordingly, and that I think will be a combination of the two in ways that we haven't yet soon.
Then you write...
"It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions. Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur."
Once again, your mistake is to project your particular way of working to the industry/hi-fi scene as a whole. Nestle can't build their business around the fact that their founder likes Gold Blend and chocolate Hobnobs for breakfast; they have to recognise that they're in a big world with many different consumer imperatives. Of course it's great that enthusiasts have so much easier access to information than before, but still most magazine buyers don't have the time or the inclination to buy and sell everything online (often, if our mag's letters are anything to go by, buying stuff 'discount' online, finding it sounds awful in their system then selling it the next week on ebay and taking a 40% hit), it's simply not rational behaviour for the general public. Nor does everyone have time to trawl the forums for individual experience, or to wade through all the zealotry and plain rudeness that some posters display (the print mags wouldn't last a day with this behaviour). Instead, they turn to people who give them a shortcut to this information, and they always will. Of course, if those magazines who offer this service don't do it well, they deserve to fail and ultimately do. All of this is irrespective of whether it's online or in print, as all those defunct 1970s hi-fi mags show...
So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.
An interesting example of this constructive relationship between the two is The Telegraph newspaper's outing of MPs expenses - this was a serious piece of journalism that required 40 people working for 6 weeks (and a couple of million quid to acquire that CD-ROM) to expose what a rotten lot we currently have in Westminster. No forum or blog could have done that. And yet I don't think the Telegraph would have had the balls to do it if Damien McBride hadn't been forced to quit as Gordon Brown's arch spin doctor, by - guess who - the Guido Fawkes blog (www.order-order.com), which outed him as the purveyor of filthy lies attempting to smear the Tories. The result is that both the Telegraph's readership (online and print) has gone up dramatically, and so has Guido Fawkes.
So this comes down to the message, not the medium. The media can exist harmoniously on different platforms - it's what they actually say that counts. And before you get too gaseous about your beloved online scene (which I also like too - I was an 'Analogue Addicts' member as far back as 1998!), just remember it too has its darkside; let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great. So overall, I agree with you that things are changing quite dramatically, but I think your prediction smacks of wishful thinking on your part, coming from a position just as partisan as some (or all) of the magazines you decry.
David https://theartofsound.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Still nonsense. I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best! Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.
You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.
I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.
The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.
There is no room in my bake-off - it is full with a full subs bench as well, anyway why would you think I would welcome you into my house after your past behaviour and threats to people who dissagree with you at other forums? If you wish to hear NVA you can do the same as everyone else, buy it (with free shipping) and try it and if unhappy return it for full refund.
You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.
Hey, David, you obviously have read and understood our ethos. Spot on! :cool:Quote:
So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.
To be fair, I think that this particular view belonged only to some anti-Technics, LP-12/belt-drive/flat-earth 'fanboys'/'fanbois', rather than it being the view of the forum itself. In fact, knowing the sensibilities of the owner of said forum, I can categorically state that this is the case. Let's not tar everyone with the same brush ;)Quote:
...let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great.
However, your general point is one I agree with wholeheartedly.
Before the subject gets lost in the undoubted ensuing diatribe from Richard regarding magazines and dealers, and how he sees their respective roles in the industry, can I ask what your thoughts are to what's been suggested regarding reviewing a 103SA? :)
Cheers!
Marco.
An extrordinary piece of self justification, my post must have worried you! Many factual errors, but I will point out a big one - BY LAW - anything bought on line can be returned for full refund, so anyone selling it a week later for 40% loss on ebay is just plain stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by David Price
Oh and by the the way, forums are outing magazine behaviour as well as with the old editor at Hi-Fi Plus (I think) Roy Gregory and his Nordost connection.
Richard,
Bollocks. Where have I ever said that "I know best"? Show me some direct quotes please of me using that particular terminology.Quote:
I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best!
Bollocks again. Show me an example of this supposed "about face". Where have I ever said that I didn't rate Tannoys before I bought them and therefore had to back track? Direct quotes please, otherwise it's yet again a figment of your overactive imagination.Quote:
Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.
It's "the only way" IN MY OPINION (let that bit sink in!) if you want to hear it at its best. Am I not allowed to have an opinion, Richard?Quote:
You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.
That's merely your opinion of the situation; how you interpret it, and you're entitled to it, but I'm afraid it's far from being fact. You've got a bloody cheek though calling anyone pedantic and egotisitc!!!!!!! Oh FFS, the irony of it all :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.
Some things are just 'right' from the beginning, Richard. Anyway, I'm up for doing the comparison but it appears you're chickening out :eyebrows:Quote:
The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.
You're a very mixed-up cookie, Richard. Again that's bullshit.Quote:
You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.
Have you ever thought for a second that it could just possibly perhaps (stay with me here), in actual reality, be YOU who is misinterpreting my posts and points, and doing the exact same thing elsewhere (on the likes of pfm) with examples from other people?
Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that it's only YOU who is constantly embroiled in disputes on various forums and no-one else?
THINK ABOUT THAT ONE VERY CAREFULLY...
Marco.
And there was I thinking a FET versus SUT thing would prick everyone's ears up......................
:uhho:
Dave
I quote your post again, and highlight the relative points. Nuf sed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
It's ok, Dave. Richard's got some serious demons he needs to exorcise, so he uses forums such as this for the purpose ;)
We enjoy the entertainment (sometimes)! :lol:
Marco.
Yes, but anything I write on here is only ever my opinion - I don't have to spell it out in black & white. It doesn't matter the language used. How could it be anything else? Have I submitted empirical evidence to affirm my opinion? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Everyone's posts on any forum, unless specifically stated otherwise, should always be read as "IMHO".
This is basic common sense, Richard!
Marco.
It pricked my ear (possibly a painfull experience).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
I have used FETs and they do some things very well. There are also a couple of musical very low noise op-amps around, but sadly not the ones recomended on most DIY forums I have seen. There is also loads of crap.
My point is just to point out there are other ways to amplify and match a DL103 apart from the one *dictated* by Marco. I have DL103 and I and many others, including forum member Gromit, who use the same phono stage with the DL103.
BTW it is very difficult to mod to improve on the PL-71 which is why it is such a star. In many ways it looks ordinary, but it is a synergy at a level that is very rare. I have built external supply for it and it doesn't really justify it, even a larger VA transformer on the existing circuit is only very marginal in benefit, and not cost effective. The full circuit diagram is on line.
Marco, your opinion is empirical insofar as it is based on your own personal experience. The purpose of AOS is to share such experience.
Is the purpose to *tell* people that is the only way to do it or they are wasting their time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy
Richard,
And your ways are perfectly valid and have equal merit to mine. It's all about context. Let people listen, if they wish, to what is said by the likes of you and me on any given subject, and then let them find their own way. I have no problem with that. Clearly, that's what is happening anyway.Quote:
My point is just to point out there are other ways to amplify and match a DL103 apart from the one *dictated* by Marco.
The problem, Richard, is that you interpret my (admittedly) very robust style of posting/expressing my opinion as "dictating", and of course you're entitled to do so, but don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone else sees it that way. Not everyone views the world from your jaundiced perspective.
You expect people to like your (equally) robust style of posting/expressing yourself or lump it - well it's exactly the same with me! I am who I am, you are who you are. This is something you need to take on board if your intention is to be part of this community in the long term and to harmoniously co-exist with others :)
Marco.
Yep, I'm all for that Dave. Sounds like a viable option and one we can test if you like next time I'm down :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Cawley
Marco.
Well you are obviously not a complete idiot, which at one time I was having my doubts on. For example it was not until your waffling that I tried a M3D, it is not an SPU but it really is fun, a bit heavy handed but on some music that is perfect. My one though has developed a hiss on both channels, weird!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I think you should note that I have never said, and would not say, that my way of doing things is the only way, that is the difference in our styles. The only thing I say is choose with your ears and this is what I have chosen. So we are not the same, I would never dictate to people the way you do, hectoring them from your balcony. Though you do seem a little milder now compared with the start of the forum, perhaps your mind is opening more.
No it isn't, Richard.Quote:
Is the purpose to *tell* people that is the only way to do it or they are wasting their time?
However, whilst most of us do accept that there are a number of ways to skin a cat, Marco has through due process come up with a combination that works well.
AOS is about this very due process. Forget the ideology, the brand loyalties, the factions and the agendas. As the maths teacher keeps saying,
"I want to see your working towards your final answer not just the right answer. There are five marks for each algebra question and only one for the answer."
A lot of Linnies/Naimies etc (or anyone who is a marketing sucker with a sheep-like approach to hi-fi) will score only 1/5 at best.
Marco has given us his working and that gives him at least 4/5.
This is what subjectivism is about - using your ears, hearing alternatives and and exercising sound judgement to get the most informative, involving and enjoyable reproduction of your recorded music collection for your money.
All we do is lead by example. We do not expect others simply to select blindly the same 'right' answer without undergoing the same thorough process.
The process is what counts more than the final result.
You need to look in the mirror and examine your own behaviour and what people might think of you. I can assure you that for the vast majority it won't be complimentary.Quote:
Well you are obviously not a complete idiot, which at one time I was having my doubts on.
You reacted angrily because someone said that you needed medical help, and I removed those comments because they were unacceptable. Kindly show others and me the same respect. You need to learn how to speak to people properly with due grace and courtesy.
So, Richard, let me spell it out for you once and once only...
If you EVER again refer to me or anyone else on this forum as an idiot, you will be gone - just like that. And it will be permanent this time.
Do I make myself absolutely clear???
Marco.
You two are closer than you think, but it is not acceptable to refer to anyone as an idiot however obliquely.
Back to your other post, yes I understand the ethos behind this but experience can either open your mind or close it. The latter is ego based. I have had 46 years of playing with this from getting my first soldering iron and bread board kit. To working in the industry from 1969 in retail, for a manufacturer / distributor, to my own companies, both in the pro and domestic markets. I have designed amps, cd players, dacs, turntables, speakers, stands, cables. I have used just about all the alternatives that are possible including MC cartridge matching transformers, I know how they work, I know how they need to be designed, I know their limitations. So to suddenly be told that the *only* acceptable way of using a cartridge that *I* own is contra to my experience, having used and designed both by someone who hasn't even used what I am using is galling to say the least.
EDIT - Something suddenly went missing - mice?
And you don't think that you've got any ego, Richard? Come on, get real!! The problem is that you only see things through your own eyes and no-one else's. If you start looking at the bigger picture then you might end up with a more complete version of reality.Quote:
Back to your other post, yes I understand the ethos behind this but experience can either open your mind or close it. The latter is ego based.
But how many times do I have to say it before it penetrates through the concrete?Quote:
I have had 46 years of playing with this from getting my first soldering iron and bread board kit. To working in the industry from 1969 in retail, for a manufacturer / distributor, to my own companies, both in the pro and domestic markets. I have designed amps, cd players, dacs, turntables, speakers, stands, cables. I have used just about all the alternatives that are possible including MC cartridge matching transformers, I know how they work, I know how they need to be designed, I know their limitations. So to suddenly be told that the *only* acceptable way of using a cartridge that *I* own is contra to my experience, having used and designed both by someone who hasn't even used what I am using is galling to say the least.
No-one is dismissing your experience or TELLING you anything - that's just how you interpret it. This is why you get into so much trouble on forums because as I've said already, you've got tunnel vision and only see things through the world of Richard Dunn.
The fact is my equally valid experience is contrary to yours, so I'm just as entitled to express it on any aspect of hi-fi however vociferously or forcefully I choose. Now.............
Please listen up once and for all:
WHATEVER I SAY IS ONLY MY OPINION, BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. It is not fact.
The sooner you grasp that simple truth, Richard, the sooner we can engage in meaningful discussion about hi-fi without arguing like petulant children.
Marco.
Get real Marco. This started because of one thing and I can repeat the post again if you want. There was no mention of alternative, there was a statement that if you did it any other way you were wasting your time and that your experience was the only valid one, if that is not ego based I don't know what is. That is what I objected to, that is the cause of you now trying to defend it with ad hominem insults against me for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Where as I have never once said your method is invalid or a waste of time, that is the difference!
OMG, someone open the door to the gas oven and put me out of my misery!! The guy just doesn't get it :lolsign:
Show me one DIRECT QUOTE where I have said in exactly those words that your method is invalid or a waste of time.
Go on, let's see if you can.
Marco.
P.S I haven't insulted you. I've not refrerred to anyone as an "idiot", unlike you.
You have already asked me this and I answered, see post #61. You stated quite clearly then if anyone (which I presume includes me) did different to you they should "otherwise forget about it - it's as simple as that".Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
You have made constant referal to me personally - that is ad hominem, mostly refering to other forums. I just happened to say I used to think you were completely misguided until I actually tried one of your recomendations in the M3D and loved the ballsy little thing, so thanks for that - but don't let it go to your head, one swallow doesn't make a summer.
EDIT - someone is editing my posts without a referal - I did not say misguided at all I refered to you comment about me calling you an idiot, so this is what I refered to.
Sorry, Richard, read my request again. I don't see the words "Richard Dunn's method is invalid or a waste of time" anywhere in post #61.
So try again. I’m looking for direct quotes. I presume that you know what a direct quote is? All that’s there is my opinion.
You don't seem to understand that in the absence of indisputable facts all anyone is able to do on any forum, no matter what language is used, is offer an opinion. You're an intelligent man, so I can't understand how you can't grasp this.
Because your behaviour/attitude on this thread makes it relevant. I am simply stating facts. Facts are not "ad hominem".Quote:
You have made constant referal to me personally - that is ad hominem, mostly refering to other forums.
You are welcome. Some things I get right, some I get wrong - none of us are perfect, and that includes you ;)Quote:
I just happened to say I used to think you were completely misguided until I actually tried one of your recomendations in the M3D and loved the ballsy little thing, so thanks for that - but don't let it go to your head, one swallow doesn't make a summer.
Marco.
Your agenda and desires again - me me me. I have no quotes apart from the one I have given, that is the post I am refering to, have been continually refering to through this thread, no other, no other quotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
To any logical take on the matter that should be enough.
I object to being told (your post was for the forum members I presume, which it seems I am temporarily one of) that there was *no other* way to do it, and all other ways were a waste of time - poetic licence, I paraphrase.
That is the matter in a nutshell, and I must have said it at least five times now, so if you don't mind I wont say it again as it is wearing out my keyboard.
You're entitled to object to what you like, but proving something that I actually haven't done is a different ball game altogether.Quote:
I object to being told (your post was for the forum members I presume, which it seems I am temporarily one of) that there was *no other* way to do it, and all other ways were a waste of time - poetic licence, I paraphrase.
Then in the absence of direct quotes showing me using specific language which categorically proves I think that your methods are "invalid or a waste of time", you have no conclusive evidence to support your assertion. Therefore, it is simply your opinion of what I have written: your interpretation of fact, rather than actual fact itself. Subject closed.Quote:
I have no quotes apart from the one I have given, that is the post I am refering to, have been continually refering to through this thread, no other, no other quotes.
Thank God! Can we now talk about hi-fi? :)
Marco.
You know Marco, your posting language can come on a bit strong. I can deal with it - just about - :), as I spent over thirty years trying to "speak the other guys language" in the hope of meeting somewhere around half way and getting a sale, thereby justifying my existance, but I can also understand this manner putting some people's backs up. I've done it too, but it was Neil primarily that I upset, hopefully momentarily, from recounting some of the situations I've found myself in - many wonderful, but one or two still hurt many years on.....
I wish I had some disposeable income to try some of the things mentioned on here. Richard's load-resistant phono stage really appeals as a "fit-and-forget" style of product. The ANT units with their slightly bright RIAA eq look great in their way as well, as so many cartridges have a treble droop (Naim phono stages are slightly bright in measurable sound too as I recall from reviews).
I just wish that we could all use more smilies to justify or enhance what we post ;) The emotions behind the posts may just be better understood.
In a boring invigilation session recently (exam "Clash Supervision" of some A level students) I speed-read an excellent book on introducing Psychology. I found it fascinating...
Returning to sanity now, Richard, on the subject of hi-fi, I'd like to refer to something you said earlier about SUTs:
No doubt, and I'm sure that a 103 through your phono stage produces very acceptable results.Quote:
The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed.
However, if Denon didn't consider that SUTs were still (even today) a viable way of amplifying the output of their MC cartridges, then why would they go to the trouble and expense of including these excellent devices (both of which I've heard) in their current product portfolio:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Den...ng_Trance.html
http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Den...ansformer.html
Are you telling me that both of these units are simply anachronisms and have no relevance in today's marketplace?
No, and I’ve already said as much. But I would like to. May I ask which Denon SUTs have you heard and in what context?Quote:
You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have heard many transformers.
Marco.
Richard, I only edited your quote of something I wrote and subsequently deleted at the same time you posted. The rest of your message remains intact.
Hi Dave,
LOL. No doubt you're right, but none of our posting styles are perfect, are they?Quote:
You know Marco, your posting language can come on a bit strong. I can deal with it - just about - :) , as I spent over thirty years trying to "speak the other guys language" in the hope of meeting somewhere around half way and getting a sale, thereby justifying my existance, but I can also understand this manner putting some people's backs up.
I'm glad you can deal with it because I ain't changing it now for no bugger! :lol: :ner: ;)
I am who I am, and I tell it as I see it. I'm outspoken, confident and opinionated - and so what I write is often controversial. I make no apologies for that. However, one thing you'll NEVER see me do is deliberately insult someone by using invective where there is no evidence of any provocation.
I always show people respect and courtesy no matter how much I disagree with their viewpoint. This is a basic human right, and a policy that should automatically be adopted by everyone in all aspects of life, not just on forums.
If everyone did this then there would be much less arguments and bad blood, but arguably life might also be a little boring :eyebrows:
Marco.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
God you really talk bolloocks when you want to, especially when your back is up. You made a load of presumptions in your last post and I cannot be bothered to rise to them. Basically you take advantage of your position here to *bully* and push your point of veiw through by running rough shod over eveyone you think is in your way.
I couldn't give toss what Denon say, they try to sell their product, like everyone else apart from me. There are now a growing number of good transistor, fet or op-amp based MC phono stages on the market. There is now only two logical reasons for owning a SUT 1/ you prefer the limitation they put on the signal (I know you will now fly off the handle again but it is fact! unless you are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands on one they are a distinct and sub standard compromise). 2/ you want to use a valve phono stage for what ever reason, so you then need a SUT as valves have as much chance of amplifying an MC with acceptable noise levels as you have flying to the moon with a feather up your arse. So SUT became the excuse for the bottleheads - as I said before, marketing, turn a liability into and asset.
I have never once said SUTs are an anachronism, once more you invent for effect. I have said clearly on many occassions, if people use their ears and not others or others bullshit to buy product then they have bought the best for them. If I dissagree with their decision it is *my* choice, but I don't bully them or force my point of view on them like you do.
What makes you think the Denon transformers are any different to other transformers. I don't think you even know how a transformer functions. All the nonsense of matching will come out again, BUT ask yourself why does it become so important, because it is *really* struggling to do the job, and I have explained why many times before. Once again marketing, turning a deficiency into an asset by convincing people of the bullshit. If there is headroom then it becomes a very minor problem.
You have set yourself up as some sort of oracle who can never be wrong, but your knowledge is extremely limited and is the knowledge of a user, who can never understand how and why only what they have experienced. So unless you are omnipotent (perhaps you think you are) you cannot have heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter, so you are talking from a very shallow lake of knowledge, which if you were an honest man to yourself or others you would admit to.
How's about splitting this thread off into Critics Corner? The last post about vintage cartridges was at least 2 days ago!
Oh dear, isn't this fun? Ok, Richard, once more unto the breach. I really am a glutton for punishment! :lol:
Bullshit - again that's just your jaundiced way of looking at things. If it suits your agenda, think what you like :)Quote:
Basically you take advantage of your position here to *bully* and push your point of veiw through by running rough shod over eveyone you think is in your way.
Now that's not arrogant or closed-minded in any way is it? Of course not!Quote:
I couldn't give toss what Denon say...
Of course, but that doesn't make it bad or 'technically wrong', does it?Quote:
...they try to sell their product, like everyone else apart from me.
I completely agree, and quite a few people on this forum and elsewhere use them.Quote:
There are now a growing number of good transistor, fet or op-amp based MC phono stages on the market.
I'm not disputing it, but here's another fact... Hi-fi is all about choosing your compromises. I prefer the compromises of an SUT and valve MM stage, and you prefer the compromises of an active MC stage. Neither approach is unquestionably 'superior' to the other.Quote:
There is now only two logical reasons for owning a SUT 1/ you prefer the limitation they put on the signal (I know you will now fly off the handle again but it is fact!
The true arbiter of anything in hi-fi are the ears of the listener, and also system context. In that respect, measurements or 'scientific proof' do not matter much, so I'm afraid that given this fact, whatever method you consider for amplifying the output of an MC cartridge as being 'technically superior' is completely irrelevant. You cannot dictate to someone what compromises they should choose.
"Sub standard" maybe, in terms of your technical opinion, but not necessarily "sub standard" if the compromises someone wants to choose differ from yours.Quote:
unless you are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands on one they are a distinct and sub standard compromise).
Such as because it's better than any other SS stage you've heard so far, perhaps?Quote:
2/ you want to use a valve phono stage for what ever reason...
More jaundiced, blinkered bullshit, I'm afraid. I use a valve MM phono stage with an SUT because it sounds absolutely fantastic, and better than any active SS MC phono I've heard so far. Why can't you accept that simple fact instead of insisting on putting rather crass (and inaccurate) labels on people?Quote:
...so you then need a SUT as valves have as much chance of amplifying an MC with acceptable noise levels as you have flying to the moon with a feather up your arse. So SUT became the excuse for the bottleheads - as I said before, marketing, turn a liability into and asset.
The reason I asked you the question was not to "invent" anything, but to clarify the point you were making.Quote:
I have never once said SUTs are an anachronism, once more you invent for effect.
I think you're clearly lacking introspection. If you honestly believe that then why can't you extend this courtesy to those who use and enjoy equipment that is derived from a different technology to that which you use, manufacture, and deem as being 'superior', instead of rather disrespectfully labelling them with some crass terminology or description that you've invented in your head?Quote:
I have said clearly on many occassions, if people use their ears and not others or others bullshit to buy product then they have bought the best for them.
Oh, and I'd like an answer to that one please!!
Really??? Do you HONESTLY believe that?? Have you actually tried re-reading your posts on forums???? My God, you are so detached from reality it's untrue. One day you might come out of that tunnel of yours and wake up and smell the coffee, but as they say, I suspect pigs will fly first.Quote:
If I dissagree with their decision it is *my* choice, but I don't bully them or force my point of view on them like you do.
Experience tells me that Denon transformers (and the A23) optimise the sound of the DL-103 better than any other transformers I've heard so far, and way better than any active MC stage I've heard *so far* - it's as simple as that. However, I'm up for being convinced differently as a result of something better being demonstrated to me. Show me how much better an NVA MC stage is and I'll gladly acknowledge it! :cool:Quote:
What makes you think the Denon transformers are any different to other transformers. I don't think you even know how a transformer functions. All the nonsense of matching will come out again, BUT ask yourself why does it become so important, because it is *really* struggling to do the job, and I have explained why many times before.
What a load of utter pish (as they say in the city of my birth)! Again, that's just your blinkered view of things. However, how many people do you think would say that about you?Quote:
You have set yourself up as some sort of oracle who can never be wrong...
What difference does that make? I use my ears to judge hi-fi equipment just like you do. I don't have to "understand" anything. If I think something sounds better then it is better, and if others try what I recommend and agree, then who cares what people like you think?Quote:
...but your knowledge is extremely limited and is the knowledge of a user, who can never understand how and why only what they have experienced.
What utter rot. Of course I haven't heard everything. Are you telling me then that you're the "omnipotent" one who's heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter? That's how your rather jaundiced and blinkered opinions about valves and SUTs come across!Quote:
So unless you are omnipotent (perhaps you think you are) you cannot have heard all the possibilities in any subject or parameter...
Lake of knowledge? WTF are you on about? I only offer my opinions based on my available experience - nothing more. You undoubtedly have more experience than me in a number of areas (for starters you're much older than I am and have been at the sharp end of the industry), but in the specific areas where I do have lots of experience and knowledge (modified SL-1210s and 103s), it is by no means a forgone conclusion that you know more than I do on the subject.Quote:
...so you are talking from a very shallow lake of knowledge, which if you were an honest man to yourself or others you would admit to.
Marco.
I'm not sure it really belongs there, Nick. This is simply extended thread drift because Richard feels like ranting and insisting on being confrontational. It'll be over when he feels that he wants to stop playing ;)Quote:
How's about splitting this thread off into Critics Corner? The last post about vintage cartridges was at least 2 days ago!
If we have to move stuff later we can do it then :)
Marco.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeawn
:lol: ;)
Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaart
Family guy is on soon, "don't make me huurrrt you".
Giving up then? Quite right - you were losing royally anyway! :lol: :lolsign: :ner:
;)
Enjoy 'Family Guy', whatever that is!
Marco.
No, it is very tedious and should stop immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Please !!!!!
Chris:(
Err... well, it was, for a while...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
No worries, Chris.
As we always listen to what our members think I will not contribute anymore to the off-topic nature of this thread and will insist that Richard does the same.
From now on all posts not related to HFW and their "bias" against vintage cartridges will be deleted.
Man we're bloody considerate, eh? :lol:
Marco.
More bullying tactics!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Err no, I'm simply fulfilling the requests of our (quieter and less boisterous) members. I'm imposing the same restrictions on myself as you.
Go and watch Family Guy and come back later! :smoking:
Marco.
hi all,
well i think its time to get [vaugely] back on track now, richard, can i ask you, are your phono-stages directly coupled on the front end to the cartridge? my reason for asking, you mentioned the cartridge your using had gone noisey, could it be that there is a small amount of DC on the front end of your phono-stage, this can in some cases lead to the noise problem you relate to.
obviously transformers dont pass DC so you dont get this potential problem using MC step up transformers.
just a thought.
anthony,TD...
SUTs are fine.
I have several phono stages but the one I prefer by a small margin uses tubes and a pair of Sowter SUTs.
There are no significant drawbacks to using SUTs, despite what has been said and they are particularly good with very low output MCs - Audio Notes spring to mind.
Just try a variety of option with the chosen cartridge and choose whichever sounds best.
I have been swopping cartridges around as I have built two Phono2s for the bake-off, one MM one MC. I was testing the MM one first with the SPU, full volume no noise unless ear to speaker. So I swapped the headshells to the M3D one and it is noisy as hell, it sounds like a valve MC stage :). Now it wasn't noisy the last time I listen to it a few days ago, so I swapped it out for an Audio Technica AT52E and that was silent, so it is a bit of a mystery at the moment. I am sure there is a simple explanation when I get time to look for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyTD
The stage speced out OK on test, just a couple of mv dc on the output. The input is direct coupled to the first gain stage which is just there really to provide the headroom and that is also where the gain of the unit is set, the RIAA is hung around the second stage.