Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Chris,

The problem with the 103 is that its design principles hark from the late 50s/early 60s where system-building methodology was very different, and also the partnering equipment and ancillaries. Therefore different rules apply.

If you want to hear the 103 at its best, as was originally intended by the manufacturer, then you have to adopt the methodologies of its era. As I've said before, you can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

The DL-103 is a device for enthusiasts - people who are willing and able to go the extra mile to optimise it. It is not for the faint-hearted who just want a 'plug & play' quick fix.

If that puts people off then fair enough; I can't control their thoughts, but you either do the job right or not - it's really as simple as that.

Marco.

I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!

[Marco]

For those with solid state amplifiers does the A23 outperform the FET A.N.T. Kora I wonder?

Why don't we find out sometime then, Dave? Much would depend on the phono stage the A23 was partnered with, but I'd be very interested to hear the results

You see, we can all waffle on forums all day, spouting our biases, but the proof of the pudding is always in the listening. How many are willing to put their money where their mouth is? Incidentally, I'm not referring here to you.

I suspect that some of the more vociferous amongst us are more confident of their opinions than others, and thus aren't shy of exposing them to the harshest of scrutiny

Marco.

[Marco]

I knew you'd say that, & that's exactly why it would be so hard to make a valid review so soon after the last one!

Sorry, Chris, I don't get what you mean. We're talking about a review of the 103SA, not the Techy. The two are separate and not mutually exclusive.

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

What I meant was, for solid state guys, only the A.N.T. Kora set to load the 103 properly. No transformer, no valves, for those that would prefer it that way? How would it compare? Remember FET's are most excellent in the tuneful distortion stakes.................

If it worked it would widen the options for potential users?

Regards



Dave

[David Price]

Richard, I thought we were supposed to be talking about classic cartridges, yet suddenly the floodgates open! You write that,

"Why do people still bother to read magazines, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line."

Two points here. I don't know about "users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls" (what is all this jargon?), but everyday people don't live to polemicise on forums, they want to buy stuff to listen to music with - and they want the best possible sound and/or the gear that suits their pocket/room/tastes best. What with modern life being so hectic, they don't have time to endlessly search forums, blogs, the web, etc. for the received wisdom of people such as yourself - however neutral and impartial it may be. They want clearly presented reviews, backed up with technical measurements to demonstrate, at least in part, why they sound as they do. Obviously, you don't - but your situation is obviously different to most as you seem more interested in the politics of hi-fi journalism than hi-fi? (Well, certainly your decision to go off-topic on this thread suggests this). So don't confuse your own imperatives with those of the general buying public...

The second point is, the online/offline thing is a distinction that will become less and less important - you're right, most things are migrating online, but one thing you can't do online is compare two cartridges on your MacBook Pro. By and large, that requires dealers. Now, they may be very different to the established chains you see in the high street in five years, but they will still be there, and far more attuned to buyer's needs ('cos they'll have to be), and they'll be online (as a point of contact) and offline when demming kit. You seem to be trying to establish a false opposition here; dealers (and mags) will simply do some things online, others off. "The industry as a whole" will pick and choose which medium suits it far more astutely than it does now, and act accordingly, and that I think will be a combination of the two in ways that we haven't yet soon.

Then you write...

"It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions. Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur."

Once again, your mistake is to project your particular way of working to the industry/hi-fi scene as a whole. Nestle can't build their business around the fact that their founder likes Gold Blend and chocolate Hobnobs for breakfast; they have to recognise that they're in a big world with many different consumer imperatives. Of course it's great that enthusiasts have so much easier access to information than before, but still most magazine buyers don't have the time or the inclination to buy and sell everything online (often, if our mag's letters are anything to go by, buying stuff 'discount' online, finding it sounds awful in their system then selling it the next week on ebay and taking a 40% hit), it's simply not rational behaviour for the general public. Nor does everyone have time to trawl the forums for individual experience, or to wade through all the zealotry and plain rudeness that some posters display (the print mags wouldn't last a day with this behaviour). Instead, they turn to people who give them a shortcut to this information, and they always will. Of course, if those magazines who offer this service don't do it well, they deserve to fail and ultimately do. All of this is irrespective of whether it's online or in print, as all those defunct 1970s hi-fi mags show...

So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.

An interesting example of this constructive relationship between the two is The Telegraph newspaper's outing of MPs expenses - this was a serious piece of journalism that required 40 people working for 6 weeks (and a couple of million quid to acquire that CD-ROM) to expose what a rotten lot we currently have in Westminster. No forum or blog could have done that. And yet I don't think the Telegraph would have had the balls to do it if Damien McBride hadn't been forced to quit as Gordon Brown's arch spin doctor, by - guess who - the Guido Fawkes blog (www.order-order.com), which outed him as the purveyor of filthy lies attempting to smear the Tories. The result is that both the Telegraph's readership (online and print) has gone up dramatically, and so has Guido Fawkes.

So this comes down to the message, not the medium. The media can exist harmoniously on different platforms - it's what they actually say that counts. And before you get too gaseous about your beloved online scene (which I also like too - I was an 'Analogue Addicts' member as far back as 1998!), just remember it too has its darkside; let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great. So overall, I agree with you that things are changing quite dramatically, but I think your prediction smacks of wishful thinking on your part, coming from a position just as partisan as some (or all) of the magazines you decry.

David https://theartofsound.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

[WikiBoy]

Richard,

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. I know what sounds best to my ears from my experience so far, and that's all that matters to me. Obviously quite a few agree with the SUT method I recommend, as the fact is there are enough people here and elsewhere who've used their own ears to judge, and as a result are enjoying their 103s through SUTs, in some cases more so than through active MC stages

I'm not saying that ALL MC cartridges need an SUT to perform optimally, but if you do your research, quite clearly that's what Denon recommend, otherwise why would they design dedicated SUTs for the purpose? They could save themselves a lot of trouble and expense by not bothering. Are you saying that you know better than the manufacturer?

Anyway, I know you'll come back and pooh-pooh this as you always do, so let's put our respective methods to the test... I'll come to your forthcoming T/T bake-off, bring my Techy fitted with a 103SA, along with the A23 SUT, and we'll try the 103SA (or any other 103) in your system with and without the SUT, and see which sounds best. It'll also give me the opportunity to finally hear some NVA amps.

If you reckon that your 'load rejecting' phono stage makes it a level playing field, with SUTs being completely unnecessary or even a disadvantage, we'll soon find out, won't we? If that's the case, I'll then come on here, hold my hands up, and admit I was wrong. Or at least wrong as far as when using your amp and phono stage is concerned - it may well be different with my Croft.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me one iota how 'wrong' I am or not, as I'm open-minded and enjoy learning experiences. If it turns out the other way, however, and the SUT sounds better, then I'll expect you to be man enough and do the same!

So what do you say, are you a man or a mouse? Let's put this argument to bed once and for all!!

Marco.

Still nonsense. I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best! Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.

You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.

I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.

The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.

There is no room in my bake-off - it is full with a full subs bench as well, anyway why would you think I would welcome you into my house after your past behaviour and threats to people who dissagree with you at other forums? If you wish to hear NVA you can do the same as everyone else, buy it (with free shipping) and try it and if unhappy return it for full refund.

You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.

[Marco]

So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.

Hey, David, you obviously have read and understood our ethos. Spot on!

...let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great.

To be fair, I think that this particular view belonged only to some anti-Technics, LP-12/belt-drive/flat-earth 'fanboys'/'fanbois', rather than it being the view of the forum itself. In fact, knowing the sensibilities of the owner of said forum, I can categorically state that this is the case. Let's not tar everyone with the same brush

However, your general point is one I agree with wholeheartedly.

Before the subject gets lost in the undoubted ensuing diatribe from Richard regarding magazines and dealers, and how he sees their respective roles in the industry, can I ask what your thoughts are to what's been suggested regarding reviewing a 103SA?

Cheers!

Marco.

[WikiBoy]

Richard, I thought we were supposed to be talking about classic cartridges, yet suddenly the floodgates open! You write that,

"Why do people still bother to read magazines, what purpose do they serve any more, so who gives a sod what they think! Now the world is on-line there is far more information on *any* product, just search - users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls and maybe even some factual information. Forums, blogs, on-line mags, and this is just the beginning - the industry as a whole will end up on-line."

Two points here. I don't know about "users - abusers - sellers - fanbois - trolls" (what is all this jargon?), but everyday people don't live to polemicise on forums, they want to buy stuff to listen to music with - and they want the best possible sound and/or the gear that suits their pocket/room/tastes best. What with modern life being so hectic, they don't have time to endlessly search forums, blogs, the web, etc. for the received wisdom of people such as yourself - however neutral and impartial it may be. They want clearly presented reviews, backed up with technical measurements to demonstrate, at least in part, why they sound as they do. Obviously, you don't - but your situation is obviously different to most as you seem more interested in the politics of hi-fi journalism than hi-fi? (Well, certainly your decision to go off-topic on this thread suggests this). So don't confuse your own imperatives with those of the general buying public...

The second point is, the online/offline thing is a distinction that will become less and less important - you're right, most things are migrating online, but one thing you can't do online is compare two cartridges on your MacBook Pro. By and large, that requires dealers. Now, they may be very different to the established chains you see in the high street in five years, but they will still be there, and far more attuned to buyer's needs ('cos they'll have to be), and they'll be online (as a point of contact) and offline when demming kit. You seem to be trying to establish a false opposition here; dealers (and mags) will simply do some things online, others off. "The industry as a whole" will pick and choose which medium suits it far more astutely than it does now, and act accordingly, and that I think will be a combination of the two in ways that we haven't yet soon.

Then you write...

"It is no longer a main stream industry that can be supported by advertising, those days are gone and with it the people who wanted (and still want to) control the industry and control your decisions. Enthusiasts building things for enthusiasts, enthusiast writing about and reviewing things for enthusiasts, enthusiasts selling second hand things to enthusiasts, enthusiasts modding things for enthusiast, and where is the retailer and the magazine and the professional reviewer in this, well no where! dead as the Dinosaur."

Once again, your mistake is to project your particular way of working to the industry/hi-fi scene as a whole. Nestle can't build their business around the fact that their founder likes Gold Blend and chocolate Hobnobs for breakfast; they have to recognise that they're in a big world with many different consumer imperatives. Of course it's great that enthusiasts have so much easier access to information than before, but still most magazine buyers don't have the time or the inclination to buy and sell everything online (often, if our mag's letters are anything to go by, buying stuff 'discount' online, finding it sounds awful in their system then selling it the next week on ebay and taking a 40% hit), it's simply not rational behaviour for the general public. Nor does everyone have time to trawl the forums for individual experience, or to wade through all the zealotry and plain rudeness that some posters display (the print mags wouldn't last a day with this behaviour). Instead, they turn to people who give them a shortcut to this information, and they always will. Of course, if those magazines who offer this service don't do it well, they deserve to fail and ultimately do. All of this is irrespective of whether it's online or in print, as all those defunct 1970s hi-fi mags show...

So I think the future will be a little more nuanced, and a little more diverse than you suggest. And practicising the "art of sound" is surely to intelligently combine new and old media, forums and magazines, productively and in a way that gets us all closer to the truth. In this brave new world, the zealots and idealogues - online and off - will soon be exposed.

An interesting example of this constructive relationship between the two is The Telegraph newspaper's outing of MPs expenses - this was a serious piece of journalism that required 40 people working for 6 weeks (and a couple of million quid to acquire that CD-ROM) to expose what a rotten lot we currently have in Westminster. No forum or blog could have done that. And yet I don't think the Telegraph would have had the balls to do it if Damien McBride hadn't been forced to quit as Gordon Brown's arch spin doctor, by - guess who - the Guido Fawkes blog (www.order-order.com), which outed him as the purveyor of filthy lies attempting to smear the Tories. The result is that both the Telegraph's readership (online and print) has gone up dramatically, and so has Guido Fawkes.

So this comes down to the message, not the medium. The media can exist harmoniously on different platforms - it's what they actually say that counts. And before you get too gaseous about your beloved online scene (which I also like too - I was an 'Analogue Addicts' member as far back as 1998!), just remember it too has its darkside; let's not forget that certain online forums seem to think Rega P2s are better than Technics SL1200s - and it takes magazines to nail these myths, providing empirical evidence for why the latter sounds so great. So overall, I agree with you that things are changing quite dramatically, but I think your prediction smacks of wishful thinking on your part, coming from a position just as partisan as some (or all) of the magazines you decry.

David https://theartofsound.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

An extrordinary piece of self justification, my post must have worried you! Many factual errors, but I will point out a big one - BY LAW - anything bought on line can be returned for full refund, so anyone selling it a week later for 40% loss on ebay is just plain stupid.

Oh and by the the way, forums are outing magazine behaviour as well as with the old editor at Hi-Fi Plus (I think) Roy Gregory and his Nordost connection.

[Marco]

Richard,

I have no problem at all with anyone making a choice with their ears, but it is the pedantic statements that if you haven't heard it or experienced it then it doesn't exist or is rubbish, or more to the point *you* always know best!

Bollocks. Where have I ever said that "I know best"? Show me some direct quotes please of me using that particular terminology.

Until that is you do a about face and forget all the pedantic statements you made in the past. A perfect case to point is the Tannoy speakers you are now converted to.

Bollocks again. Show me an example of this supposed "about face". Where have I ever said that I didn't rate Tannoys before I bought them and therefore had to back track? Direct quotes please, otherwise it's yet again a figment of your overactive imagination.

You stated *the only way* to listen to a DL103 is with a transformer, so how come I listen to one with an active phono stage, how come it will be used at next weekends turntable bake-off (mostly with an SPU), how come many people have heard it and admired it.

It's "the only way" IN MY OPINION (let that bit sink in!) if you want to hear it at its best. Am I not allowed to have an opinion, Richard?

I have no problem with you prefering anything, but why do your comments have to be so pedantic and ego based.

That's merely your opinion of the situation; how you interpret it, and you're entitled to it, but I'm afraid it's far from being fact. You've got a bloody cheek though calling anyone pedantic and egotisitc!!!!!!! Oh FFS, the irony of it all

The manufacturers comments were written a long time ago when there were no active stages quiet enough, things have changed. You have not heard the phono stage I use, where as I have have heard many transformers.

Some things are just 'right' from the beginning, Richard. Anyway, I'm up for doing the comparison but it appears you're chickening out

You still deliberately missinterpret my post and point. I am happy that you are happy with what you have. I am unhappy with pedantic statements that - *because you prefer it them everyone else hasn't a bloody clue 'cos the great Marco has spoken*. You don't have an open mind otherwise you would not have made that statement in the post that initiated this.

You're a very mixed-up cookie, Richard. Again that's bullshit.

Have you ever thought for a second that it could just possibly perhaps (stay with me here), in actual reality, be YOU who is misinterpreting my posts and points, and doing the exact same thing elsewhere (on the likes of pfm) with examples from other people?

Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that it's only YOU who is constantly embroiled in disputes on various forums and no-one else?

THINK ABOUT THAT ONE VERY CAREFULLY...

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

And there was I thinking a FET versus SUT thing would prick everyone's ears up......................



Dave