Why is HFW so biased against vintage cartridges?

[WikiBoy]

Hi Chris,


However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it
Marco.

That is complete nonsense, and sort of pedantic statement that so pollutes this forum. There is a complete missunderstanding about step up transformers and their function and limitations v load rejecting active phono stages.

Transformers are on the border of what is possible as all they do is exchange current for voltage, and there is bugger all current coming of a low output moving coil of any ilk. That is why carefull matching with a transformer pays dividends as it is like pushing a swing door, if there is no strength then they need to play together, if there is strength (voltage headroom) it pushes through anyway.

This nonsense about transformers is like trying to turn a liability into an asset. They were necessary when gain stages were too noisy, but now - with understanding - it is possible (and in my terms - simple) to design gain stages that have little to no noise and circumvent the matching problems of transformers.

[Mike]

But some people prefer, and enjoy, the sound of step-up transformers with valve phono stages, Richard...

[The Grand Wazoo]

Marco,
Maybe this.............

However, the fact is the other items mentioned are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it

........is one reason why 103's are so easy to dismiss. If such a vociferous advocate as yourself points out that this is the only way to see the potential of a cartridge, it might well put people off.

[WikiBoy]

But some people prefer, and enjoy, the sound of step-up transformers with valve phono stages, Richard...

Why post that - is it justification?

Where have I said people shouldn't buy what they enjoy to listen to. BUT how many of you have an open mind enough to try what others say instead of just being embedded in ego!

My post is aimed at this comment "are all essential in order to optimise the DL-103SA (or any 103), particularly the A23 SUT, otherwise forget about it". Where does it say that he *just* enjoys it - it says "essential - otherwise forget it".

[Mike]

is it justification?

Yes... kind of!

If Marco thinks the best way to enjoy said cartridge then, in his opinion, the stated ancillaries are essential to hear it at it's best. What more 'justification' is needed?

Personally it's not the way I'd go, but there are plenty who would....

[WikiBoy]

Yes... kind of!

If Marco thinks the best way to enjoy said cartridge then, in his opinion, the stated ancillaries are essential to hear it at it's best. What more 'justification' is needed?

Personally it's not the way I'd go, but there are plenty who would....

Is this moderation? as this post has no relativity to what I wrote. If you don't want to understand me then read The Grand Wazzoo's post.

[Mike]

Is this moderation?

Don't be ridiculous.

Just an opinion about... oh, forget it!

[Marco]

Richard,

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. I know what sounds best to my ears from my experience so far, and that's all that matters to me. Obviously quite a few agree with the SUT method I recommend, as the fact is there are enough people here and elsewhere who've used their own ears to judge, and as a result are enjoying their 103s through SUTs, in some cases more so than through active MC stages

I'm not saying that ALL MC cartridges need an SUT to perform optimally, but if you do your research, quite clearly that's what Denon recommend, otherwise why would they design dedicated SUTs for the purpose? They could save themselves a lot of trouble and expense by not bothering. Are you saying that you know better than the manufacturer?

Anyway, I know you'll come back and pooh-pooh this as you always do, so let's put our respective methods to the test... I'll come to your forthcoming T/T bake-off, bring my Techy fitted with a 103SA, along with the A23 SUT, and we'll try the 103SA (or any other 103) in your system with and without the SUT, and see which sounds best. It'll also give me the opportunity to finally hear some NVA amps.

If you reckon that your 'load rejecting' phono stage makes it a level playing field, with SUTs being completely unnecessary or even a disadvantage, we'll soon find out, won't we? If that's the case, I'll then come on here, hold my hands up, and admit I was wrong. Or at least wrong as far as when using your amp and phono stage is concerned - it may well be different with my Croft.

Anyway, it doesn't bother me one iota how 'wrong' I am or not, as I'm open-minded and enjoy learning experiences. If it turns out the other way, however, and the SUT sounds better, then I'll expect you to be man enough and do the same!

So what do you say, are you a man or a mouse? Let's put this argument to bed once and for all!!

Marco.

[Marco]

Chris,

The problem with the 103 is that its design principles hark from the late 50s/early 60s where system-building methodology was very different, and also the partnering equipment and ancillaries. Therefore different rules apply.

If you want to hear the 103 at its best, as was originally intended by the manufacturer, then you have to adopt the methodologies of its era. As I've said before, you can't fit a square peg into a round hole.

The DL-103 is a device for enthusiasts - people who are willing and able to go the extra mile to optimise it. It is not for the faint-hearted who just want a 'plug & play' quick fix.

If that puts people off then fair enough; I can't control their thoughts, but you either do the job right or not - it's really as simple as that.

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

But you can fit a round peg into a square hole?

For those with solid state amplifiers does the A23 outperform the FET A.N.T. Kora I wonder?



Regards



Dave