Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

[Mikeandvan]

Post heading should really read valve amp and audio note speakers to be fair. So finally got my Audio Innovations s500 up and running with the AN Js I got from another forum member, and after an initial 'meh' period, now realise the combo is fantastic with jazz, a main reason why I got them. Before jazz sounded a bit dull, now instruments feel extremely 'live', the bass on the AN Js is tuneful and just deep enough without being over bearing, I am having quite few wow moments, the most realistic I have ever heard music before. Downside is this combo can be quite awful with alot of other music, but that;s fine, i listen to a lot of jazz and want to listen to more, possibly even something more sedate, I'm 50 this year after all.......... So I would like another integrated amp and speaker set up, what is the best to make 60s rock/pop like scratchy early/mid period Beatles, stones, kinks sound at its best? I also listen to some other stuff like US garage rock, UK punk, techno, and other 'poorly recorded music'. Something you will often read in reviews of audiophile brands is that they will make poorly recorded music sound worse, so i need something to make it sound better ! Was thinking early Exposure integrated or perhaps a Nait 1 to 'make it boogie'!

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Post heading should really read valve amp and audio note speakers to be fair. So finally got my Audio Innovations s500 up and running with the AN Js I got from another forum member, and after an initial 'meh' period, now realise the combo is fantastic with jazz, a main reason why I got them. Before jazz sounded a bit dull, now instruments feel extremely 'live', the bass on the AN Js is tuneful and just deep enough without being over bearing, I am having quite few wow moments, the most realistic I have ever heard music before. Downside is this combo can be quite awful with alot of other music, but that;s fine, i listen to a lot of jazz and want to listen to more, possibly even something more sedate, I'm 50 this year after all.......... So I would like another integrated amp and speaker set up, what is the best to make 60s rock/pop like scratchy early/mid period Beatles, stones, kinks sound at its best? I also listen to some other stuff like US garage rock, UK punk, techno, and other 'poorly recorded music'. Something you will often read in reviews of audiophile brands is that they will make poorly recorded music sound worse, so i need something to make it sound better ! Was thinking early Exposure integrated or perhaps a Nait 1 to 'make it boogie'!

6 ohm loudspeakers are usually best with solid state amps, whereas valve amps suit speakers usually 10 ohms upward.
The science behind this is revealed here: http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html

But great there is some good result & you are enjoying some jazz with the s500 and j's , my favorite music too.

[Macca]

The problem is both the valve amp and the speakers are not very good. That's why only plinky-plonk sounds any good through them. Plinky plonk will sound good on an Amstrad.

[walpurgis]

I don't think I'd be looking at Exposure or Naim to get the best from recordings of limited quality.

A serviced Cambridge A60 or Audiolab 8000A would probably suit, but if you can get away from the idea of an integrated, a Quad 909 with a passive pre-amp would be just the job, offering oodles of refined power! A 606 Mk.II does the same.

[scotty38]

The problem is both the valve amp and the speakers are not very good.

Hope Peter Kay doesn't read this, he'll fear for his livelihood.....

[WESTLOWER]

Scrap the System and start again, it should should good whatever the genre.
Something isn't right....

[Pharos]

I cannot understand the liking for AN products.

Many years ago I went for an interview there to be a construction worker on amplifiers. The owner's wife was running the interviews, and was immediately very rude to me and factually incorrect in her assertions about me.

I sat and did a wiring test on a valve, and she said "You think you are too good for us don't you?". I declined to agree but did notice the whole culture there, one of a 1950s factory, complete with tea trolley and aluminium sugar basin, and the associated culture.

I completed the test before others, and my soldering was better, and I observed earthing polarity when others did not.
I left afterwards and never heard from them again.

IMO there designs are primitive and lacking in many areas, and they are well behind in development, but they have a following.
Subsequently a guy joined my gym, and told me he was a constructor there; he had no training or qualifications in electronics or audio.

[WESTLOWER]

I cannot understand the liking for AN products.

Many years ago I went for an interview there to be a construction worker on amplifiers. The owner's wife was running the interviews, and was immediately very rude to me and factually incorrect in her assertions about me.

I sat and did a wiring test on a valve, and she said "You think you are too good for us don't you?". I declined to agree but did notice the whole culture there, one of a 1950s factory, complete with tea trolley and aluminium sugar basin, and the associated culture.

I completed the test before others, and my soldering was better, and I observed earthing polarity when others did not.
I left afterwards and never heard from them again.

IMO there designs are primitive and lacking in many areas, and they are well behind in development, but they have a following.
Subsequently a guy joined my gym, and told me he was a constructor there; he had no training or qualifications in electronics or audio.


OOH! Disappointing experience indeed.
Whilst others will testify to AN being one of the most helpful, friendliest and informative people in the industry.
Their quality speaks for itself. The Story of the 'Guy in the Gym' really doesn't sit right with the level of quality they produce :scratch:
Anyway, as you say their products have their following, and very very many at that!

Peter Qvortrup hasn't become one of the most respected figures in Audio by accident... :rolleyes:

[oldius]

Each time I have listened to AN speakers, they have sounded fabulous with simple recordings and poor with more driven, complex material. Living Voice are the same, in my experience.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Macca]

More likely to be the amplifier than the speakers. Lots of harmonic distortion to give that 'better than real life' sound but once the mix gets busy the associated intermodulation distortion kicks in and it all starts to sound nasty.

[AJSki2fly]

More likely to be the amplifier than the speakers. Lots of harmonic distortion to give that 'better than real life' sound but once the mix gets busy the associated intermodulation distortion kicks in and it all starts to sound nasty.

I am finding this all a bit ODD to say the least.

I purchased new and owned for many years an Audio Innovations S500 mk1 and it was extremely good, I had it tri-wired by them and I replaced the valves with Genelux Golden Lions as recommended by a dealer, and it sounded superb. Initially driving Snell type Js, (I cannot comment on similarities to ANs Js), and later with KEF Reference model 3.2's (not the easiest of speakers to drive) but it worked fine. I would hasten to add that it sounded good on all genres on both. I actually had one of those silly moments and sold the S500 and other gear which I went onto regret, so much so that a 3 years later I purchased another S500 but pre-owned this time, once again I upgraded the valves with Golden Lions, but this time drove Dali Ikon 6's, and again it sounded very good, however the one area of failing with this combo was restricted placement of the speakers because if not positioned correctly then they over-emphasised the bass.

I am not sure how long you have been listening to it Mike but I would give it several days to a week on other genres before you write the combination off, sometimes it takes time to adjust to a new set, up. If you are still not happy then it might be well worth trying a different speaker, if you want easy to drive then maybe a suitable Tannoy or Impulse H2's, you certainly should get bass from either of those combos IMO.

[Barry]

There is nothing wrong with the Audio Innovations 500 amplifier - it's a very good amplifier.

I don't know about Audio Note loudspeakers or how the driver(s) is(are) loaded, but the AI 500 (factory upgraded to the latest specification) works wonderfully well with horn-loaded speakers (a good example in my experience being the Impulse H2s).

[Thetiminator]

I have 106db horns that are perfect for low powered valve amps. After demo’ing loads from £2k-£40k I’ve found the thread title to be spot on. Wouldn’t have one given...

[Jazid]

My experience is different, but I value timbre, tonality, and image density over forensic ability to tease apart complex music. I like Audio Note and accept their failings because their stuff plays enjoyable sounds that meets my needs. I enjoy lots of other stuff including class d amps, but haven't yet found speakers better for my room and tastes than AN-E.
With 106dB horns I'd be staggered if you could tolerate anything other than class a amps and valve above sand, but maybe Pass labs fits the bill?

Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

The problem is both the valve amp and the speakers are not very good. That's why only plinky-plonk sounds any good through them. Plinky plonk will sound good on an Amstrad.

Haha, that's nonsense. I know cos I've tried both, and this combo with jazz is superb

[Mikeandvan]

I don't think I'd be looking at Exposure or Naim to get the best from recordings of limited quality.

A serviced Cambridge A60 or Audiolab 8000A would probably suit, but if you can get away from the idea of an integrated, a Quad 909 with a passive pre-amp would be just the job, offering oodles of refined power! A 606 Mk.II does the same.

Had the 909, found it a bit sedate. I often read that the early Naits 'could really boogie', so thought they might be good, similar with exposure.

[Macca]

Haha, that's nonsense. I know cos I've tried both, and this combo with jazz is superb

You say it is good with jazz but a good amp and speakers will be good with everything.

[Mikeandvan]

I am finding this all a bit ODD to say the least.

I purchased new and owned for many years an Audio Innovations S500 mk1 and it was extremely good, I had it tri-wired by them and I replaced the valves with Genelux Golden Lions as recommended by a dealer, and it sounded superb. Initially driving Snell type Js, (I cannot comment on similarities to ANs Js), and later with KEF Reference model 3.2's (not the easiest of speakers to drive) but it worked fine. I would hasten to add that it sounded good on all genres on both. I actually had one of those silly moments and sold the S500 and other gear which I went onto regret, so much so that a 3 years later I purchased another S500 but pre-owned this time, once again I upgraded the valves with Golden Lions, but this time drove Dali Ikon 6's, and again it sounded very good, however the one area of failing with this combo was restricted placement of the speakers because if not positioned correctly then they over-emphasised the bass.

I am not sure how long you have been listening to it Mike but I would give it several days to a week on other genres before you right the combination off, sometimes it takes time to adjust to a new set, up. If you are still not happy then it might be well worth trying a different speaker, if you want easy to drive then maybe a suitable Tannoy or Impulse H2's, you certainly should get bass from either of those combos IMO.

I'm happy with the system, but as I said, its quite limited in what it can relay, but with jazz its spot on, and quite addictive. So I'll happily keep it, and am just gonna buy another integrated amp and smallish standmounts for the other genres I like. I've room for 2 amps on my rack, the other speakers will just have to sit in a cupboard till I need them.

[AJSki2fly]

I'm happy with the system, but as I said, its quite limited in what it can relay, but with jazz its spot on, and quite addictive. So I'll happily keep it, and am just gonna buy another integrated amp and smallish standmounts for the other genres I like. I've room for 2 amps on my rack, the other speakers will just have to sit in a cupboard till I need them.

I now am completely confused Mike, how can smallish stand mounts possibly give you the bass you describe you want I cannot fathom. Also whether it’s a valve or integrated amp with such speakers is not going to make much difference imo. It really does sound as if the AN Js are the issue here! Has anyone else any other ideas?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Opti-cal]

Mike, I get what you are saying re valve amps but I think your issue with them has been compounded by the Audio Note's shortcomings, not the amps.

With the right speakers valve amps can give a powerful, dynamic sound with plenty of bass although admittedly it can be tricky to get right though. The speakers you have are considered superb for acoustic reproduction and indeed Jazz (as you have eluded to). They do place texture and timbre above nearly all else sonic-wise so other important (although less to some people) characteristics of a speakers 'signature' are missing, even compared to a lot of far less expensive examples.

For a lot of people this is okay as they may only listen to the kind of music that the speakers excel with but it does limit your musical genres somewhat.

As with a lot of things hifi its horses for courses due to the limitations of speaker design. I would say the AN's are more 'compromised' than most in the pursuit of convincingly reproducing one or two particular types of music extremely well (maybe better than nearly all others).

As you say if you're willing to swap the speakers out when you feel like it then that's fine but the amp is not the problem here. Get some more well rounded and less 'compromised' speakers and a lot of things missing from the AN's should return, plus, if you choose carefully you might just get a large dose of what the AN's offer too!

[Macca]

Mike, I get what you are saying re valve amps but I think your issue with them has been compounded by the Audio Note's shortcomings, not the amps.

With the right speakers valve amps can give a powerful, dynamic sound with plenty of bass although admittedly it can be tricky to get right though. The speakers you have are considered superb for acoustic reproduction and indeed Jazz (as you have eluded to). They do place texture and timbre above nearly all else sonic-wise so other important (although less to some people) characteristics of a speakers 'signature' are missing, even compared to a lot of far less expensive examples.

For a lot of people this is okay as they may only listen to the kind of music that the speakers excel with but it does limit your musical genres somewhat.
!

They just have a midrange hump, that's all. There's nothing else about them that would mean they are placing 'texture and timbre above all else.' That's just a function of frequency response, you could achieve it with pretty much any speaker just by using EQ. Of course whilst that might sound great with some recordings most stuff will just sound wrong.

AN-E Lexus Signature - https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements - these speakers cost 12000 dollar back in 2008!

Have to say on the several occasions I have heard Audionote speakers I've been astonished at how lo-fi they sound, especially in the bass. Like an old-timey radiogram. Obviously jamming them up into the corners won't help but as pointed out in the link, without that twin boundary reinforcement they have no bass at all.

[Opti-cal]

They just have a midrange hump, that's all. There's nothing else about them that would mean they are placing 'texture and timbre above all else.' That's just a function of frequency response, you could achieve it with pretty much any speaker just by using EQ. . Obviously jamming them up into the corners won't help but as pointed out in the link, without that twin boundary reinforcement they have no bass at all.

To an extent, the cabinet design is such as to 'flatter' those humps. Simply boosting the EQ on 'any speaker' will likely sound pretty naff actually. The AN's do have a charm.

Agreed on the bass though.

[scotty38]

I get different folk like different things and that's great but what I struggle with is this concept of something is great with this tune but crap with that one. Subtle differences I can handle but such polar opposites and I'm struggling.

Mike, I know you've had room/positioning issues before now and also issues with your deck and the arm being set up correctly so what's the score right now and any updated pictures of the setup?

[walpurgis]

Being realistic, a well balanced system should present any kind of music adequately.

[Firebottle]

AN-E Lexus Signature - https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements - these speakers cost 12000 dollar back in 2008!


Bejaysus, that's crap.

[Floyddroid]

I wouls agree with Adam in that something isn't right. It is a common view that there is a synergy between the AA and AN products. Have you ever had the amp serviced or replaced any of the valves? Have you tried a different source? I suspect a mechanical problem as unlike Macca i have heard the ANJ's working with AA amps and they sounded divine.

[SPS]

Had a read through all of the replys.. there's nothing wrong with valves.. It just the amplifier the're put in.

A common issue with all amplifiers but more noticable on valves is the ability to muddy up the sound when the music get more complex, it's down to the power supply, a single power supply on amp it not enough. Monoblocks would be better, or seperate supplies for each stage, or regulators for each stage.

I'm afraid cheap or not cheap, but poorly designed valve amps all do this to a point, with complex music the dynamics disappear and the sound collapses, leaving a muddy sound.

I run 2 to 4watt amps through 7ohm 100db+speakers and they play anything and everything well so don't blame the valves please... But do use decent valves.

I'm no fan of an speakers. But from my experience they are not as dynamic as I would expect and the bass coloured ( increases with volume), but if your listening in isolation you would probably need to put a better pair speakers next to them to tell. My advice is sort the amp, which is no simple task now you know whats wrong.. then see how the speakers respond.
Cheers steve

[anthonyTD]

:)
Had a read through all of the replys.. there's nothing wrong with valves.. It just the amplifier the're put in.

A common issue with all amplifiers but more noticable on valves is the ability to muddy up the sound when the music get more complex, it's down to the power supply, a single power supply on amp it not enough. Monoblocks would be better, or seperate supplies for each stage, or regulators for each stage.

I'm afraid cheap or not cheap, but poorly designed valve amps all do this to a point, with complex music the dynamics disappear and the sound collapses, leaving a muddy sound.

[Macca]

Had a read through all of the replys.. there's nothing wrong with valves.. It just the amplifier the're put in.

A common issue with all amplifiers but more noticable on valves is the ability to muddy up the sound when the music get more complex, it's down to the power supply, a single power supply on amp it not enough. Monoblocks would be better, or seperate supplies for each stage, or regulators for each stage.

I'm afraid cheap or not cheap, but poorly designed valve amps all do this to a point, with complex music the dynamics disappear and the sound collapses, leaving a muddy sound.

I run 2 to 4watt amps through 7ohm 100db+speakers and they play anything and everything well so don't blame the valves please... But do use decent valves.

I'm no fan of an speakers. But from my experience they are not as dynamic as I would expect and the bass coloured ( increases with volume), but if your listening in isolation you would probably need to put a better pair speakers next to them to tell. My advice is sort the amp, which is no simple task now you know whats wrong.. then see how the speakers respond.
Cheers steve

Yes, there is no problem at all with quality valve amps although they tend to sound indistinguishable from quality solid state amps IME which isn't what some people are looking for.

But in this case the amplifier is a budget effort, the speakers have an FR that is all over the shop, it's no mystery why the performance is not consistent across all types of music.

[SPS]

Yes, there is no problem at all with quality valve amps although they tend to sound indistinguishable from quality solid state amps IME which isn't what some people are looking for.

But in this case the amplifier is a budget effort, the speakers have an FR that is all over the shop, it's no mystery why the performance is not consistent across all types of music.

Yes I realise that, I was just explaining the reasons..
To be fair many valve amps are the same.. the fact that the speakers are good with jazz proves to me they are better than most, sort the amp and they will more than lightly be better at more complex music

[Macca]

Yes I realise that, I was just explaining the reasons..
To be fair many valve amps are the same.. the fact that the speakers are good with jazz proves to me they are better than most, sort the amp and they will more than lightly be better at more complex music

I don't know, if they measure anything like the Lexus Signature I linked to earlier I wouldn't have them if they were being given away free at petrol stations. But there are a lot of terrible speakers out there so they may well be better than most.

Jazz is a big genre and some of it will demand high standard of reproduction so it depends what sort of jazz we are talking about. Three or four instruments, playing acoustically, well recorded, that's not difficult to get sounding 'good' on pretty much anything, hence the popularity of it for show demos. A complex mix is a different matter.

[Haselsh1]

Gotta agree with the OP on this one. Back around 2003 I was using an Audion 300B SE amp with Audio Note AZ-2's the source being an Arcam CD player and an Alphason Sonata. I realised quite quickly that jazz, female vocal and acoustic music sounded bloody wonderful. In fact it was probably the best I'd heard up to that point. The big problem I had was that I listened mainly, as now, to heavy electronic music and Prog Rock. So once again I dumped the lot and re-invented the bloody wheel for the nth time. Does it ever end...? :doh:

[AJSki2fly]

Yes, there is no problem at all with quality valve amps although they tend to sound indistinguishable from quality solid state amps IME which isn't what some people are looking for.

But in this case the amplifier is a budget effort, the speakers have an FR that is all over the shop, it's no mystery why the performance is not consistent across all types of music.

Martin, I do not understand your view that an S500is a budget effort, it certainly was not considered so in its day, I purchased mine in late 80’s for £650 and at the time was considered quite a bit for an amp and had good reviews and well thought of, in fact if you allowed for inflation it would probably be in the £4K area if built and sold today.

This is quite an interesting and informative view of it http://www.trioda.com/index.php/en/equipment/4167-amplifier-audio-innovations-series-500

[Lawrence001]

Mike did you ever try the Kef 104/2? The "conjugate load" crossover means they are a reasonable load for a 40wpc EL34 amp and they are not laid back like the Model 2s you had.

I used them with my opera valve amp and they rocked with Deep purple and the like as well as jazz. I'd try that first before getting a SS amp. Hopefully you could still keep them if you still didn't like the valve sound, they work well with Class A SS too.

Just watch out for the foam rot in the woofers. If you can't find one already sorted, the single wire version is much easier to fix as just the doughnuts are foam, the surrounds are rubber in those, but they are both foam in the biwire version.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Macca]

Martin, I do not understand your view that an S500is a budget effort, it certainly was not considered so in its day, I purchased mine in late 80’s for £650 and at the time was considered quite a bit for an amp and had good reviews and well thought of, in fact if you allowed for inflation it would probably be in the £4K area if built and sold today.

This is quite an interesting and informative view of it http://www.trioda.com/index.php/en/equipment/4167-amplifier-audio-innovations-series-500

Although £650 in 1989 is only £1850 in today's money, not £4k, I do take your point. They weren't giving them away. For comparison a Radford Revival STA25, which I would suggest is superior to the AI in every respect, is currently £2800.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike, I get what you are saying re valve amps but I think your issue with them has been compounded by the Audio Note's shortcomings, not the amps.

With the right speakers valve amps can give a powerful, dynamic sound with plenty of bass although admittedly it can be tricky to get right though. The speakers you have are considered superb for acoustic reproduction and indeed Jazz (as you have eluded to). They do place texture and timbre above nearly all else sonic-wise so other important (although less to some people) characteristics of a speakers 'signature' are missing, even compared to a lot of far less expensive examples.

For a lot of people this is okay as they may only listen to the kind of music that the speakers excel with but it does limit your musical genres somewhat.

As with a lot of things hifi its horses for courses due to the limitations of speaker design. I would say the AN's are more 'compromised' than most in the pursuit of convincingly reproducing one or two particular types of music extremely well (maybe better than nearly all others).

As you say if you're willing to swap the speakers out when you feel like it then that's fine but the amp is not the problem here. Get some more well rounded and less 'compromised' speakers and a lot of things missing from the AN's should return, plus, if you choose carefully you might just get a large dose of what the AN's offer too!

Thanks Chris, might be worth trying another speaker in good time then.

[Mikeandvan]

I get different folk like different things and that's great but what I struggle with is this concept of something is great with this tune but crap with that one. Subtle differences I can handle but such polar opposites and I'm struggling.

Mike, I know you've had room/positioning issues before now and also issues with your deck and the arm being set up correctly so what's the score right now and any updated pictures of the setup?

Hi Scotty, been using my CDP mostly, Mission pcm 7000, but of an antique, lol! Should get it serviced or get a something newer! The speakers are close ish to the corners of the room, which is great cos they're out of the way! I like this design! I shoul probably do some roon treatment too, my kitchen adjoins my listinening (living) room, so a lot of flat kitchen units to bounce off.

[Mikeandvan]

I wouls agree with Adam in that something isn't right. It is a common view that there is a synergy between the AA and AN products. Have you ever had the amp serviced or replaced any of the valves? Have you tried a different source? I suspect a mechanical problem as unlike Macca i have heard the ANJ's working with AA amps and they sounded divine.

Serviced recently, may'be it needs a second opinion?

[Mikeandvan]

I don't know, if they measure anything like the Lexus Signature I linked to earlier I wouldn't have them if they were being given away free at petrol stations. But there are a lot of terrible speakers out there so they may well be better than most.

Jazz is a big genre and some of it will demand high standard of reproduction so it depends what sort of jazz we are talking about. Three or four instruments, playing acoustically, well recorded, that's not difficult to get sounding 'good' on pretty much anything, hence the popularity of it for show demos. A complex mix is a different matter.

I see where you're coming from, but I had a big expensive amp once, a minty JVC AX1010, I found it rather sterile, though I'm sure some folk will be able to get better out of it.

[Mikeandvan]

Gotta agree with the OP on this one. Back around 2003 I was using an Audion 300B SE amp with Audio Note AZ-2's the source being an Arcam CD player and an Alphason Sonata. I realised quite quickly that jazz, female vocal and acoustic music sounded bloody wonderful. In fact it was probably the best I'd heard up to that point. The big problem I had was that I listened mainly, as now, to heavy electronic music and Prog Rock. So once again I dumped the lot and re-invented the bloody wheel for the nth time. Does it ever end...? :doh:
LOL, I'm only to listening to more Jazz music now that I'm getting on a bit.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike did you ever try the Kef 104/2? The "conjugate load" crossover means they are a reasonable load for a 40wpc EL34 amp and they are not laid back like the Model 2s you had.

I used them with my opera valve amp and they rocked with Deep purple and the like as well as jazz. I'd try that first before getting a SS amp. Hopefully you could still keep them if you still didn't like the valve sound, they work well with Class A SS too.

Just watch out for the foam rot in the woofers. If you can't find one already sorted, the single wire version is much easier to fix as just the doughnuts are foam, the surrounds are rubber in those, but they are both foam in the biwire version.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Great, they're cheap! Will keep my eyes peeled.

[Mikeandvan]

Although £650 in 1989 is only £1850 in today's money, not £4k, I do take your point. They weren't giving them away. For comparison a Radford Revival STA25, which I would suggest is superior to the AI in every respect, is currently £2800.

Stop it, I ain't got three grand to spare!

[Mikeandvan]

I want my dinner now, but I also want to finish the cd of Horace silver 'Cape verdean blues'! This set up is doing something seriously right, but not everything.

[Pharos]

IMO if a speaker 'does some things right', this is a result of; oddities of a speaker, in which resultantly they are not having great demands placed on them, and the personal subjective education.

I agree that a good speaker should do all genres, by definition, and think that jazz places only certain demands on a speaker; it is very tympanic, plinky plonk piano, drums, and sax bursts, other genres, classical with sustained strings place quite other demands on a speaker.

[WESTLOWER]

IMO if a speaker 'does some things right', this is a result of; oddities of a speaker, in which resultantly they are not having great demands placed on them, and the personal subjective education.

I agree that a good speaker should do all genres, by definition, and think that jazz places only certain demands on a speaker; it is very tympanic, plinky plonk piano, drums, and sax bursts, other genres, classical with sustained strings place quite other demands on a speaker.

Hilarious
I dunno what sort of Jazz you listen to but it sounds Bloody horrid to Me!
Lots of generalisations in this thread, very amusing.

If a speaker and amp combo only does 1 type of music well then something is very wrong.
Imho Dump the system and buy something that’s going to give you satisfaction across many musical styles (even the horror show of plinky plonk described!)

The title of the thread is surely not even To be taken seriously?
Mike, Get out and listen to some proper matched systems with valve amps, when you hear
What’s possible then ask the question (Thread title) again..

[Macca]

I want my dinner now, but I also want to finish the cd of Horace silver 'Cape verdean blues'! This set up is doing something seriously right, but not everything.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gt7QXwYpZo


This sounds good and 'hi-fi' through my laptop speakers, which are toppy and have absolutely no bass. It's no test of anything. You'd have to try to put a system together that made a mess of it.

I understand what you are saying about the big JVC sounding 'sterile' but the job of the amp is to amplify, not change the sound. The room and the loudspeakers will do enough of that already.

I don't know the JVC, never had one, never heard one, so no point in me getting into specifics on that particular amp. But you don't need valves to get good results from all types if music, likewise you don't need solid state to do that either, There are just good and bad amplifiers, the amplifying device doesn't matter, unless for some reason (very big room, very insensitive speakers) you need hundreds of watts.

No-one wants 'sterile' but the idea that valves are some sort of universal solution to that is just wrong. No-one makes music to sound sterile, no-one listens to their newly finished album album in the studio and says 'This sounds sterile but fuck it, let's put it out anyway.' But studios use very good speakers for making that assessment.

If I were you I'd go back to square one, start with the speakers as- assuming a digital source - the speakers far and away have the most influence on the sound quality. Don't piss about in the shallow end, get absolutely the best speakers (and yes, I'm talking measurements here since they do matter a lot as this thread demonstrates) you can afford, then sort out the amplifier.

[Mikeandvan]

Hilarious
I dunno what sort of Jazz you listen to but it sounds Bloody horrid to Me!
Lots of generalisations in this thread, very amusing.

If a speaker and amp combo only does 1 type of music well then something is very wrong.
Imho Dump the system and buy something that’s going to give you satisfaction across many musical styles (even the horror show of plinky plonk described!)

The title of the thread is surely not even To be taken seriously?
Mike, Get out and listen to some proper matched systems with valve amps, when you hear
What’s possible then ask the question (Thread title) again..

"Newly serviced S500 for sale, sounds divine, but just spotted something rather special and can't resist". :lol::lol:

[walpurgis]

Bin it all and get Bose! :D

[AJSki2fly]

Bin it all and get Bose! :D

Personally I’d go for a pair of Apple Homepods and stream to them, you can put where you want as they optimise their output by taking room measurements and you can feed the vinyl/TT to it via an RPI, simples less boxes and lots and lots of bass.:D:lol: Other benefits are sell all the other gear and subscribe to lifelong streaming service And have money over, and have more room in the lounge.:D

[anthonyTD]

Just listening to this in my workshop, on a pair of full range Jordan drivers, in sealed boxes, [around 85db] driven by a Mullard 3 watt per channel single ended valve amp, sounds great! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gt7QXwYpZo


This sounds good and 'hi-fi' through my laptop speakers, which are toppy and have absolutely no bass. It's no test of anything. You'd have to try to put a system together that made a mess of it.

I understand what you are saying about the big JVC sounding 'sterile' but the job of the amp is to amplify, not change the sound. The room and the loudspeakers will do enough of that already.

I don't know the JVC, never had one, never heard one, so no point in me getting into specifics on that particular amp. But you don't need valves to get good results from all types if music, likewise you don't need solid state to do that either, There are just good and bad amplifiers, the amplifying device doesn't matter, unless for some reason (very big room, very insensitive speakers) you need hundreds of watts.

No-one wants 'sterile' but the idea that valves are some sort of universal solution to that is just wrong. No-one makes music to sound sterile, no-one listens to their newly finished album album in the studio and says 'This sounds sterile but fuck it, let's put it out anyway.' But studios use very good speakers for making that assessment.

If I were you I'd go back to square one, start with the speakers as- assuming a digital source - the speakers far and away have the most influence on the sound quality. Don't piss about in the shallow end, get absolutely the best speakers (and yes, I'm talking measurements here since they do matter a lot as this thread demonstrates) you can afford, then sort out the amplifier.

[Haselsh1]

LOL, I'm only to listening to more Jazz music now that I'm getting on a bit.

LOL, understand Mike. At least you haven't 'turned' classical ;)

[Haselsh1]

Don't get me wrong though, I do love modern jazz and the system I outlined had the most incredible 'air' and 'space'. My problem was that, as with recently, it had no excess power and grunt. I think I need to learn now that I just don't suit valves.

[Pharos]

Hilarious
I dunno what sort of Jazz you listen to but it sounds Bloody horrid to Me!
Lots of generalisations in this thread, very amusing.

If a speaker and amp combo only does 1 type of music well then something is very wrong.
Imho Dump the system and buy something that’s going to give you satisfaction across many musical styles (even the horror show of plinky plonk described!)

The title of the thread is surely not even To be taken seriously?
Mike, Get out and listen to some proper matched systems with valve amps, when you hear
What’s possible then ask the question (Thread title) again..

What in particular do you find hilarious Adam?

I think that in general jazz players do it for each other, and they compete, more than to communicate with an audience.

There are exceptions.

[anthonyTD]

I dont think Adam was refering to Jazz itself!
What in particular do you find hilarious Adam?

I think that in general jazz players do it for each other, and they compete, more than to communicate with an audience.

There are exceptions.

[Haselsh1]

I think that in general jazz players do it for each other, and they compete, more than to communicate with an audience.

I have certainly found this to be true when they play live.

[AJSki2fly]

I think that in general jazz players do it for each other, and they compete, more than to communicate with an audience.


I have certainly found this to be true when they play live.

Personally having played in a few minor amateur jazz bands and seen a few live, amateur and famous, I think either statement is far from the truth. In my experience playing in a jazz group requires a clear understanding of what each other is doing and complimenting each other to get a successful presentation of what they are performing and trying to achieve. If one member tries to out do another or goes of on a completely random tack it will result in a breakdown in the musical form and any fluidity, unless that is actually what the group of players want to achieve.

[Pharos]

I do not see the two as mutually exclusive.

[Mikeandvan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gt7QXwYpZo


This sounds good and 'hi-fi' through my laptop speakers, which are toppy and have absolutely no bass. It's no test of anything. You'd have to try to put a system together that made a mess of it.

I understand what you are saying about the big JVC sounding 'sterile' but the job of the amp is to amplify, not change the sound. The room and the loudspeakers will do enough of that already.

I don't know the JVC, never had one, never heard one, so no point in me getting into specifics on that particular amp. But you don't need valves to get good results from all types if music, likewise you don't need solid state to do that either, There are just good and bad amplifiers, the amplifying device doesn't matter, unless for some reason (very big room, very insensitive speakers) you need hundreds of watts.

No-one wants 'sterile' but the idea that valves are some sort of universal solution to that is just wrong. No-one makes music to sound sterile, no-one listens to their newly finished album album in the studio and says 'This sounds sterile but fuck it, let's put it out anyway.' But studios use very good speakers for making that assessment.

If I were you I'd go back to square one, start with the speakers as- assuming a digital source - the speakers far and away have the most influence on the sound quality. Don't piss about in the shallow end, get absolutely the best speakers (and yes, I'm talking measurements here since they do matter a lot as this thread demonstrates) you can afford, then sort out the amplifier.

I had some serious hifi speakers once, Kef reference 2 I think, they sounded lifeless, may'be I'm just a lofi sorta guy. It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol.

[Mikeandvan]

Just listening to this in my workshop, on a pair of full range Jordan drivers, in sealed boxes, [around 85db] driven by a Mullard 3 watt per channel single ended valve amp, sounds great! :)

I'm sure it is!:champagne:

[Mikeandvan]

LOL, understand Mike. At least you haven't 'turned' classical ;)

Classical is only the start, Classic Fm follows 24/7, you can't face anything more challenging, next step care home then the grave.

[Macca]

I had some serious hifi speakers once, Kef reference 2 I think, they sounded lifeless, may'be I'm just a lofi sorta guy. It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol.

I think you're oversimplifying something that is quite complex i.e amplifier-speaker- room combination. The KEF Reference 2 isn't inherently 'lifeless' but like any speaker it can be got to sound that way due to the other factors involved. Specifically with the KEF they are a very awkward load, the only time I have heard that particular speaker they were being driven by some POS boutique valve amp that wasn't up to the job and the sound was shrill and hard. But you could still tell that they were inherently a 'good' speaker.

if we take as the starting point a speaker that measures well then there is at least something to work with. It might sound poor or lifeless or whatever to begin with but since we know that is not an inherent issue with the speaker itself we can then move on to addressing the problem with a logical approach. Whereas with a heavily coloured speaker like the Audionotes we're starting on the back foot and will probably never be able to correct their issues so they sound good with all genres.

The 'measures well but sounds poor' is a good soundbite, problem is that despite what people claim there are not really any speakers (or amplifiers) that fall into that category. You might find a poorly measuring speaker or amp enhances some types of (simple) music like acoustic jazz over its well-measuring competitor, but then, as you've also found, that enhancement with simple music then becomes a drawback to enjoying something more difficult to reproduce - like 1960s rock music.

[anthonyTD]

IMHO, one of the reasons a lot of speakers from the 1970, 80,90, were deemed awful compared to speakers from say the 1950's 60, was down to the transistor, now don't get me wrong, i am not about to bash the transistor as without it, many of the things we take for granted now would not be possible.
Its down to a change of design approach that came about with the introduction of the transistor into audio, i.e.; when mainstream Audio was all valve, speaker designer/manufacturers concentrated more on the design element of the driver itself, making it as linear as possible, while maintaining a good sensitivity, that made it useable by most well designed valve amplification that was being produced at the time.
The introduction of the transistor eventually made it possible to make high output amplifier designs relatively cheap in comparison to the regular valve amps that had been the norm for decades before, therefore; the care and attention to the speaker drive unit parameters that had been the norm, started to slip, with less time spent on making decent but expensive drive units, as it was now possible to make drive units much cheaper, and on a much larger scale, sometimes using different, stiffer, heavier materials, as there was plenty of power available to drive inefficient, non linear drivers, and get them to work, by fitting over-complicated cross-over’s to tidy everything up afterwards, this i think is a much bigger problem than we realise, especially when you start to study the design parameters of the drivers used in some of these designs, some aspects of their frequency response, and linearity over a set bandwidth is truly terrible, hence the need for complicated cross-over’s in an attempt to make a usable completed speaker out what is in essence junk!
Some of these designs are from Manufacturers with very high provenance.
One such speaker comes to mind, i will not name the company, but lets just say, after speaking with one of the designers, we both agreed that this particular speaker would most probably only work to a satisfactory level with the accompanying electronics they also produced!
Just my ramblings. :)
A...

[Macca]

I agree, most speakers range from quite poor to absolutely terrible. But I'd also blame that on the predominance of the wholly subjective review. if you can get away with producing tat and it still gets rave reviews - and therefore sells well - why make the effort to do better?

[walpurgis]

One such speaker comes to mind, i will not name the company, but lets just say, after speaking with one of the designers, we both agreed that this particular speaker would most probably only work to a satisfactory level with the accompanying electronics they also produced!
Just my ramblings. :)
A...

I'd love to know who that may have been :).

[Pharos]

"It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol. "

Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.

Does anyone know at what time the Thiele-Small breakthrough research was done?

[anthonyTD]

:)


Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.

[anthonyTD]

:)
I agree, most speakers range from quite poor to absolutely terrible. But I'd also blame that on the predominance of the wholly subjective review. if you can get away with producing tat and it still gets rave reviews - and therefore sells well - why make the effort to do better?

[Macca]

"It sounds shit but it measures good is not my way of choosing hifi btw, lol. "

Look at what measures well, and then choose from that what sounds best, according to your budget.

Does anyone know at what time the Thiele-Small breakthrough research was done?

Thiele was 1960s, Small was 1970s.

[Barry]

I'm reminded of what Peter Walker once said when asked if he thought his speakers (the Quad 57s) were 'very good': "No we don't think they are good, but then we don't think anyone else's are either."

[anthonyTD]

Yes, peter had a way with words! :D
I'm reminded of what Peter Walker once said when asked if he thought his speakers (the Quad 57s) were 'very good': "No we don't think they are good, but then we don't think anyone else's are either."

[Mikeandvan]

I think you're oversimplifying something that is quite complex i.e amplifier-speaker- room combination. The KEF Reference 2 isn't inherently 'lifeless' but like any speaker it can be got to sound that way due to the other factors involved. Specifically with the KEF they are a very awkward load, the only time I have heard that particular speaker they were being driven by some POS boutique valve amp that wasn't up to the job and the sound was shrill and hard. But you could still tell that they were inherently a 'good' speaker.

if we take as the starting point a speaker that measures well then there is at least something to work with. It might sound poor or lifeless or whatever to begin with but since we know that is not an inherent issue with the speaker itself we can then move on to addressing the problem with a logical approach. Whereas with a heavily coloured speaker like the Audionotes we're starting on the back foot and will probably never be able to correct their issues so they sound good with all genres.

The 'measures well but sounds poor' is a good soundbite, problem is that despite what people claim there are not really any speakers (or amplifiers) that fall into that category. You might find a poorly measuring speaker or amp enhances some types of (simple) music like acoustic jazz over its well-measuring competitor, but then, as you've also found, that enhancement with simple music then becomes a drawback to enjoying something more difficult to reproduce - like 1960s rock music.

Well, I might find a speaker that does all that one day, its all a bit trial and error for me, but then every time I read 'what hi fi have you owned' threads, I can see I'm in no way alone! For now I'm loving these with jazz, not perfect, but there are a few things to check and sort out in my system, like my cdp for a start. Incidentally my impressions of the Kefs were bang on according to a dealer on here, remember posting about them at the time.

[chris@panteg]

I think it's more to do with valve amplifier design, a lot of single ended amps sound good with simple music, anything really dense and complex, not so good.

As for sounding good with jazz? Nice... Really Nice. Great!

[philv]

Mike did you ever try the Kef 104/2? The "conjugate load" crossover means they are a reasonable load for a 40wpc EL34 amp and they are not laid back like the Model 2s you had.

I used them with my opera valve amp and they rocked with Deep purple and the like as well as jazz. I'd try that first before getting a SS amp. Hopefully you could still keep them if you still didn't like the valve sound, they work well with Class A SS too.

Just watch out for the foam rot in the woofers. If you can't find one already sorted, the single wire version is much easier to fix as just the doughnuts are foam, the surrounds are rubber in those, but they are both foam in the biwire version.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

I'd agree with kef 104/2.

They were lovely on the end of an audio innovations 700 integrared.

My favorite pairing to date.
Same wpc as the 500.

The donuts are a doddle to replace.
A cheap socket set from argos, screwdriver, and some crimp connectors if you can't solder.
The donuts are easy to glue, unlike surrounds where alignment can be tricky.

They can be had very chaaply.

[AJSki2fly]

I think it's more to do with valve amplifier design, a lot of single ended amps sound good with simple music, anything really dense and complex, not so good.

As for sounding good with jazz? Nice... Really Nice. Great!

I have to disagree having owned two S500s and driven Snell Js, KEF 3.2’s and Dali Ikon 6’s all worked well across all genres, Snells slightly down in Bass and more pure/clinical, if the S500 is working as it should, and it’s just been serviced, the it will be the speakers, the AN Js that is.


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[Mikeandvan]

I have to disagree having owned two S500s and driven Snell Js, KEF 3.2’s and Dali Ikon 6’s all worked well across all genres, Snells slightly down in Bass and more pure/clinical, if the S500 is working as it should, and it’s just been serviced, the it will be the speakers, the AN Js that is.


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Any idea where I can get the J's checked out? I'm close to Audio note but don;t wanna pay AN prices!

[AJSki2fly]

Any idea where I can get the J's checked out? I'm close to Audio note but don;t wanna pay AN prices!

Mike, try John at http://www.loudspeaker-design-restoration.co.uk he is very knowledgable and has some me good test facilities included a small anechoic chamber. I know him through Impulse H2s but he works on many historic speakers.

He can at least check the cross overs and that they are matched.


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[chris@panteg]

I have to disagree having owned two S500s and driven Snell Js, KEF 3.2’s and Dali Ikon 6’s all worked well across all genres, Snells slightly down in Bass and more pure/clinical, if the S500 is working as it should, and it’s just been serviced, the it will be the speakers, the AN Js that is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Series 500 is a push pull design and is as you say a good all rounder.
But even so it can be improved with a border patrol psu, I once heard a comparison of the S500 with and without the BP at the penta show 1997 by Gary Dews.
The difference was not subtle!

[Sixty2]

As the thread title is a statement and not a question, I completely disagree. My AN system, using ANJ’s, plays all genres of music with a truly engaging musical presentation. Of course, as we are all different, some folks might well think it sounds shit!’

[AJSki2fly]

As the thread title is a statement and not a question, I completely disagree. My AN system, using ANJ’s, plays all genres of music with a truly engaging musical presentation. Of course, as we are all different, some folks might well think it sounds shit!’

I think part of the problem for Mike is he himself admits he has a challenging listening room. An observation also is he has been through many changes in gear over the last year or so trying to achieve his audio nirvana, something I was also guilty of about a year ago. In my personal experience at one point I found myself very confused and quite frustrated, was it amp, speakers or front end that was lacking. Eventually I realised it was what was making the sound that was the main protagonist, speakers, how they worked with the amp and in the room. The TT did have issues but imo looking back not as influential as the speakers.

[Pharos]

I know a lot of people here are not 'figures guys', but on the basis of those alone it is obvious that electromagnetic devices are far more susceptible to erroneous by products than electronics

[enrae8]

I think it's more to do with valve amplifier design, a lot of single ended amps sound good with simple music, anything really dense and complex, not so good.

As for sounding good with jazz? Nice... Really Nice. Great!
I get what you’re saying :smoking:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCpxCFzwLQw

[User211]

Low output is a problem with many valve amps.

I have heard AN/Es with a lot of very high priced Audio Note UK amps.

But when I plugged my 80 Watt 211 monos into a pair they just blew me away. Never heard them sound so good. Those monos can peak at 170 Watts.

The best AN amp I have heard on AN/Es was a 211 design. I documented it on this forum.

In all honesty I really think a lot more power is required than many of the AN amps actually provide for their own loudspeakers. Though the 211 AN amp was very good, even more power brings things even that very high priced item could not manage.

[chris@panteg]

Not sure if I can agree with that?
With the 211 there is a trade off, you get much more power but the mids are not as good.
But horses for courses.

Nik nack no! Yes.!

[AJSki2fly]

Just to wade in my 2 penny worth, there is imho a load of Bollox talked about power and valve amps. If the valve amp has good design and good transformers it will give a good result. Most people in normal listening conditions are unlikely to demand more than 1-2watts from their amp, with occasional higher demands. So most good valve amps can meet what is called for, obviously if you pair one up with poorly designed inefficient speakers then it will be an issue.

I am sure a few others can confer.


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[Gazjam]

Just seen this thread.

From direct experience,
Hand on heart, I can’t agree that valve amps are shit for anything except “Jazz...or girl with a Guitar” type music?
Word to the wise...That’s just something you read on the Internet.

Had a SET 300B poweramp that volume wise I couldn’t get past 10 o’clock on different preamps, any more and the picture frames in the room started rumbling.
And that put out 8 or 9 watts depending on how you measured it.

All about power supply regulation and the iron used.
Best power amp I’d ever heard never mind owned, and I’ve been to a few high end shows, only sold because cost of ownership at 1K+ a year for glass over time was above my pay grade.

Another Word to the wise...Like all things in Hifi...”it depends”.

[User211]

Not sure if I can agree with that?
With the 211 there is a trade off, you get much more power but the mids are not as good.
But horses for courses.

Nik nack no! Yes.!Hm.

Much depends on which brand of 211s and which brand of 300B or 2A3 or whatever tubes you are using with said amps.

Put it this way, the owner had been through loads of expensive AN amps and stopped on the 211s.

Also uses a Pass solid state class A amp last time I heard, which was a few months ago.

[chris@panteg]

Hm.

Much depends on which brand of 211s and which brand of 300B or 2A3 or whatever tubes you are using with said amps.

Put it this way, the owner had been through loads of expensive AN amps and stopped on the 211s.

Also uses a Pass solid state class A amp last time I heard, which was a few months ago.


Well that's one person's choice and taste! And if I could afford to experiment like that?
I use a Puresound 2a3 amplifier with a maximum power output of 18w and it's entirely adequate with my Living voice Avatars with plenty of grunt.
Sounds great with jazz, classical, acoustic music and hard rock, prog rock in fact just about anything sounds good.
Only amplifier I'd swap it for is one of the the Border Patrol amp's.

[Bourney]

I get where you're at Mike, ive gone back and forth with typical valve and SS combos. I dont listen very loud and I've found every SS set up (with the exception of sugden a21) sounds more controlled, tidier and able to play louder more comfortably but something is always missing, particularly at the levels i listen at, and I cant even describe what it is! Once I go back to the valve set up, everything feels more right. I have an AN amp and speakers. However I do get why people wouldn't like this sound. All set ups are compromised, its just which set of compromises you can live with I guess.
I'm due to punish myself trying to convince myself i like a SS set up soon : D

[Mikeandvan]

I get where you're at Mike, ive gone back and forth with typical valve and SS combos. I dont listen very loud and I've found every SS set up (with the exception of sugden a21) sounds more controlled, tidier and able to play louder more comfortably but something is always missing, particularly at the levels i listen at, and I cant even describe what it is! Once I go back to the valve set up, everything feels more right. I have an AN amp and speakers. However I do get why people wouldn't like this sound. All set ups are compromised, its just which set of compromises you can live with I guess.
I'm due to punish myself trying to convince myself i like a SS set up soon : D

Indeed, I'm having to switch between SS and valve at the moment, wish I had two listening rooms!

[Mikeandvan]

Been listening to the Audio note Soro for a few weeks now, from memory not much difference between it and the AI S500, though will have to plug that back in to check. Perhaps the Soro is more of an all rounder, but anyway its sounding great, and I definitely love valves/AN J/ Snell type speakers with jazz, depending on the CD or recording it almost sounds as if there is a jazz combo in my living room. Pretty good with some pop stuff as well like Dusty, Scott walker. Not tried it too much with vinyl as I still haven't got around to getting a new cart.

[Marco]

Hilarious
I dunno what sort of Jazz you listen to but it sounds Bloody horrid to Me!
Lots of generalisations in this thread, very amusing.

If a speaker and amp combo only does 1 type of music well then something is very wrong.
Imho Dump the system and buy something that’s going to give you satisfaction across many musical styles (even the horror show of plinky plonk described!)

The title of the thread is surely not even To be taken seriously?
Mike, Get out and listen to some proper matched systems with valve amps, when you hear
What’s possible then ask the question (Thread title) again..

^^ This ^^

Adam is *unquestionably spot on*.. 'Nuff said! Sorry, Mike.

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

Been listening to the Audio note Soro for a few weeks now, from memory not much difference between it and the AI S500, though will have to plug that back in to check. Perhaps the Soro is more of an all rounder, but anyway its sounding great, and I definitely love valves/AN J/ Snell type speakers with jazz, depending on the CD or recording it almost sounds as if there is a jazz combo in my living room. Pretty good with some pop stuff as well like Dusty, Scott walker. Not tried it too much with vinyl as I still haven't got around to getting a new cart.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, and I went through the same, it’s the speakers not the amp, and if your room is difficult, as you say, then this is even more likely.

Demo or borrow some other speakers until it works.


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[Pharos]

I get where you're at Mike, ive gone back and forth with typical valve and SS combos. I dont listen very loud and I've found every SS set up (with the exception of sugden a21) sounds more controlled, tidier and able to play louder more comfortably but something is always missing, particularly at the levels i listen at, and I cant even describe what it is! Once I go back to the valve set up, everything feels more right. I have an AN amp and speakers. However I do get why people wouldn't like this sound. All set ups are compromised, its just which set of compromises you can live with I guess.
I'm due to punish myself trying to convince myself i like a SS set up soon : D

When you get a difference as you have described, how do you validate them and decide which is right?
Most of us were conditioned in our formative years to the sound of valves - it is hard to defeat the bias of early years imprinting.

I am punishing myself with a SS amp setup currently, it had reduced the amount of music which is listenable. But I am becoming increasingly sure that this is because the system is so revealing that I am forensically hearing faults not audible previously.

You may respond; "So what good does that do?". I answer I am closer than ever to the reality; seeing the flaws stops me being deluded.

[Macca]

Some solid state amps have 'it' and some don't. The Sugden A21 is one of them that has 'it'. I reckon it is something to do with the distortion harmonics.

Trying various power amps in my collection recently, Krell KSA50S and Krell KSA100 Mk 2 have 'it' as does the Philips 'Black Tulip' 380. Others, like the Linn LK100 and the XTZ A100 don't. They aren't unpleasant to listen to, but there's something missing/wrong with the harmonics compared to the others, you can hear it most obviously with acoustic guitar but it affects everything.

Some valve amps have 'it' (Radford, Tube Distinctions, Leak Stereo 20) some don't. Poor quality valve amps are IMO the worst of all worlds, I'd rather have a poor solid state amp than listen to soft, compressed mush no matter how easy it is on the ear. All amp sound the same unless clipping? No. That's bollocks.

[walpurgis]

Is it due to 'crossover distortion'. Class A amplifiers or amps well biased into Class A, certainly solid state ones tend to seem easier on the ear to me. They (whoever 'they' are) say you can't hear it on a good A/B amp, but I'm not so sure.

[Macca]

Is it due to 'crossover distortion'. Class A amplifiers or amps well biased into Class A, certainly solid state ones tend to seem easier on the ear to me. They (whoever 'they' are) say you can't hear it on a good A/B amp, but I'm not so sure.

No I don't think so. The XTZ can be switched in to Class A but still doesn't have it, and the Philips is an A/B and does have 'it'. Plus none of the Radford, Leak or TD amps are class A but all have 'it.'

I'd guess some amp designers know exactly what gives 'it' but they're not likely to give away their trade secrets.

[walpurgis]

I own two unlikely candidates for 'it'. The cheapo ProArt integrated/monoblock juke-box amps, which sound remarkable and my tiny Technics SU-C04 'New Class A' micro-integrated, which sounds way, way, better than the three quid I paid for it at a boot sale might suggest :).

[Pharos]

The 'first watt' concern may be a factor.

In my studies we were taught that class A reduced the4 eve harmonics, those which are less unpleasant. I asked Robin at ATC about Xover distortion and he ran a test which showed that class A does produce odd harmonics.

[spendorman]

Probably the best amplifier that I have is a Williamson, built by my uncle in the early days of Rogers at the Rogers's factory. Possibly next is the Radford STA25 III.

[spendorman]

I own two unlikely candidates for 'it'. The cheapo ProArt integrated/monoblock juke-box amps, which sound remarkable and my tiny Technics SU-C04 'New Class A' micro-integrated, which sounds way, way, better than the three quid I paid for it at a boot sale might suggest :).

Yes, I have a Technics SU V303 (New Class A)!!!!!!!! Pretty good too.

[anthonyTD]

TD Copper and Soul amps are indeed class A,however; its not just about the class of operation that makes one amp sound more right in the way it portrays music over another, which can sound sterile and lifeless untill pushed, and then everything becomes too loud and in your face, there are familiar misconceptions creeping in to this thread that threaten to bias one topology over the other which have no founding, i have said this many times before, there are good and bad designs from both camps, and it is mostly down to the way the devices are implimented, and choosing the right configuration and type of device for the best outcome, without having to nobble the end result with huge amounts of feedback and other types of frequency restrictions in an effort to make a bad design stable, the saying; "shutting the gate after the horse has bolted" is very apt in this paticular explanation.

There are other aspects to take into account when comparing Solid state with valves too, valves are inherently very linear devices,but with reletively low gain compared with transistors,hence they do not need huge amounts of feedback around them to control their gain, or linarity, this is one very important aspect when comparing valves and Solid state, another very important aspect is the type of harmonics that each topology has the ability to produce, valves tend to produce low order harmonics, ie; 2nd's and 3rd's, but not much else, we can tolerate quite large amounts of 2nd harmonics, [even orders of 10% is not objectionable] however; when we start getting into the realms of odd harmonics, especialy higher order odd harmonics, [3rd's 5th's 7th' s 9th's etc, etc] that's when things can get ugly sounding,even small amounts of higher order odd harmonics can be quite intolerable for many listeners, its one of the reasons we used to see the adverts from the early Japanese amp produces stating rediculously low harmonic distortion figures, but even then these figures were usualy only quoted at very small wattage figures!

Going back to valves, Pentodes, and Tetrodes produce even and odd order harmonics, [again mainy 2nd and 3rd] so if you use them in a single ended configuration they can produce even and odd harmonics, now if you put them in a push-pull design, the evens get canceled, and you are left with the odd order [again mainly 3rd harmonics that can be significantly reduced by correct biasing and sometimes negative feedback] triodes produce predominently even order harmonics [mainly 2nd] so in a single ended configuration, you will get mainly 2nd order, if you put them in a push-pull design, in theory you will end up with very little of any, due to the push-pull configuration. All of this is a bit simplified, but i hope it goes some way in helping those interested in uderstanding the basics of one topolgy over the other, when you start using feedback correctly, you can use it to make a well designed circuit perform even better.
No I don't think so. The XTZ can be switched in to Class A but still doesn't have it, and the Philips is an A/B and does have 'it'. Plus none of the Radford, Leak or TD amps are class A but all have 'it.'

I'd guess some amp designers know exactly what gives 'it' but they're not likely to give away their trade secrets.

[Mikeandvan]

^^ This ^^

Adam is *unquestionably spot on*.. 'Nuff said! Sorry, Mike.

Marco.

Really? Yeh cos Audio note speakers and valve amps are never matched are they.

[Mikeandvan]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, and I went through the same, it’s the speakers not the amp, and if your room is difficult, as you say, then this is even more likely.

Demo or borrow some other speakers until it works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but my update was meant on a positive note, listening again to jazz last night it was tremendous, never heard anything like it, literally as if there is a jazz combo in my living room! Trouble is I now have to go out and score some heroin for Charlie, and whatever else John and Miles are into, shouldn't be too hard in Brighton. I would like to try some other speakers in future though, there may be more suitable ones out there for me, not sure, something about the J's which accentuates small band music really well I think. I've not listened to much rock stuff mind, like the Stones, kinks etc the kind of music I was having trouble with, as my mp200 cart broke, and I 've yet to source a new one, been using a very old Denon dl110 with alot of use, over 1500 hrs, so can't rely on that.

[Macca]

Really? Yeh cos Audio note speakers and valve amps are never matched are they.

lol - agree that was an odd comment. Audionote amp with Audionote speakers, how can that not be a good match?

[Macca]

TD Copper and Soul amps are indeed class A,however; its not just about the class of operation that makes one amp sound more right in the way it portrays music over another, which can sound sterile and lifeless untill pushed, and then everything becomes too loud and in your face, there are familiar misconceptions creeping in to this thread that threaten to bias one topology over the other which have no founding, i have said this many times before, there are good and bad designs from both camps, and it is mostly down to the way the devices are implimented, and choosing the right configuration and type of device for the best outcome, without having to nobble the end result with huge amounts of feedback and other types of frequency restrictions in an effort to make a bad design stable, the saying; "shutting the gate after the horse has bolted" is very apt in this paticular explanation.

There are other aspects to take into account when comparing Solid state with valves too, valves are inherently very linear devices,but with reletively low gain compared with transistors,hence they do not need huge amounts of feedback around them to control their gain, or linarity, this is one very important aspect when comparing valves and Solid state, another very important aspect is the type of harmonics that each topology has the ability to produce, valves tend to produce low order harmonics, ie; 2nd's and 3rd's, but not much else, we can tolerate quite large amounts of 2nd harmonics, [even orders of 10% is not objectionable] however; when we start getting into the realms of odd harmonics, especialy higher order odd harmonics, [3rd's 5th's 7th' s 9th's etc, etc] that's when things can get ugly sounding,even small amounts of higher order odd harmonics can be quite intolerable for many listeners, its one of the reasons we used to see the adverts from the early Japanese amp produces stating rediculously low harmonic distortion figures, but even then these figures were usualy only quoted at very small wattage figures!

Going back to valves, Pentodes, and Tetrodes produce even and odd order harmonics, [again mainy 2nd and 3rd] so if you use them in a single ended configuration they can produce even and odd harmonics, now if you put them in a push-pull design, the evens get canceled, and you are left with the odd order [again mainly 3rd harmonics that can be significantly reduced by correct biasing and sometimes negative feedback] triodes produce predominently even order harmonics [mainly 2nd] so in a single ended configuration, you will get mainly 2nd order, if you put them in a push-pull design, in theory you will end up with very little of any, due to the push-pull configuration. All of this is a bit simplified, but i hope it goes some way in helping those interested in uderstanding the basics of one topolgy over the other, when you start using feedback correctly, you can use it to make a well designed circuit perform even better.

Have you ever designed any solid state amps, Anthony? (probably a stupid question I know).

[Marco]

Really? Yeh cos Audio note speakers and valve amps are never matched are they.

That's not what I meant, mate. What I meant was that ANY *properly designed* amplifier (valve or SS) and speakers should play ANY type of music well. It should NOT be a one-trick pony, in the way you describe, so don't settle for that unless you're happy just listening to jazz all the time.

If not, sell what you've got and start again, perhaps taking advantage of the knowledge and experience on this forum to help guide you in the right direction. I would say though, that if you want a valve amp to 'do it all', music wise, to a high standard, then as Steve said earlier, you need one fitted with serious attention paid to the PSUs, and which doesn't come cheap. And, unless you're using high-efficiency speakers, one with a goodly dose of watts up its ass!

There's nothing worse than the sound of a flea-powered valve amp clipping into a pair of (not efficient enough) speakers.... In that respect, always ensure that there's sufficient 'headroom' to allow the amp and speakers to faithfully and cleanly reproduce musical transients.

In that respect, I wouldn't entertain any new, commercially produced, valve amp costing less than £3K (probably nearer £5k to be sure), as you simply can't do really good valve amps on the cheap. Plus, as you've also discovered, it's *imperative* that you use the right speakers, which are an optimal electrical (and sonic) match for the partnering amp, therefore BOTH should be considered as a pairing, not as individual entities, and be auditioned and purchased on that basis.

That last bit is VERY important!:exactly:

Marco.

P.S Oh, and I'd also avoid buying said amps from 'badge-fi' brands, such as AN, or anything else where what you're largely paying for is the 'cachet' of the name, not what's under the hood, and which matters most. Go instead for respected small specialist companies, or employ the services of a good DIY-er who knows what he's doing. That way you'll achieve the highest SPPV, and likely have something that will last you a lifetime.

[Mikeandvan]

That's not what I meant, mate. What I meant was that ANY *properly designed* amplifier (valve or SS) and speakers should play ANY type of music well. It should NOT be a one-trick pony, in the way you describe, so don't settle for that unless you're happy just listening to jazz all the time.

If not, sell what you've got and start again, perhaps taking advantage of the knowledge and experience on this forum to help guide you in the right direction. I would say though, that if you want a valve amp to 'do it all', music wise, to a high standard, then as Steve said earlier, you need one fitted with serious attention paid to the PSUs, and which doesn't come cheap. And, unless you're using high-efficiency speakers, one with a goodly dose of watts up its ass!

There's nothing worse than the sound of a flea-powered valve amp clipping into a pair of (not efficient enough) speakers.... In that respect, always ensure that there's sufficient 'headroom' to allow the amp and speakers to faithfully and cleanly reproduce musical transients

In that respect, I wouldn't entertain any new, commercially produced, valve amp costing less than £3K (probably nearer £5k to be sure), as you simply can't do good valve amps on the cheap. Plus, as you've also discovered, it's *imperative* that you use the right speakers, which are an optimal electrical (and sonic) match for the partnering amp, so BOTH should be considered as a pairing, not as individual entities, and be auditioned and purchased in that that way.

That last bit is VERY important!:exactly:

Marco.

Sorry but I've heard many people claim so and so small wattage valve amp drive their low efficiency beefy floor standers with ease to take this as gospel.

[Marco]

Sorry, could you reword that please, as I'm not sure exactly what you're saying:scratch:

If you're saying that low-wattage valve amps can drive low-efficiency speakers (of any description) with ease, then I'm sorry, that is a total fallacy.

Marco.

[Lawrence001]

Sorry but I've heard many people claim {so and so small wattage valve amp} drive their {low efficiency beefy floor standers} with ease to take this as gospel.

Does this help? [emoji3]

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[AJSki2fly]

OK, lets try and try and get some common sense into this, and look at what Mike has.

A standard Audio Inovations S500 manufacturers specification is Total harmonic distortion (THD) <0,15% in the frequency range 80Hz-15kHz/1W, which is pretty low.

If you have a read of http://wuwuwu.trioda.com/index.php/en/equipment/4167-amplifier-audio-innovations-series-500 the last para is quite interesting "Usually, each audio description ends with the opinion of the sonic impressions of the device. Such opinions are characterized by a unique accumulation of metaphors with which the author is trying to convey to others what he subjectively feels, in other words, what if basically impossible to explain to the others. Not wanting to go this way, let me just say that in my opinion the amplifier plays really well. On a scale of "Radford" I would give it 8 points out of 10."

Considering Radford amps are generally well up there in the ranks and widely accepted as giving a great listening experience then a score of 8/10 from a lowly EL34 amp, and I am not saying their is anything wrong with EL34 amps, I in fact loved both my S500's.

So now we have the Audio Note Soro (currently there are several configurations of it from AN), basically PP - push push or SE Single Ended. From my limited amplifier design knowledge in SE it is not that far removed from the AI S500, maybe someone else can clarify this for us. If Mike's AN Soro is an SE then as he reports it does not sound that different from the AN S500, which personally I would expect.

http://www.audioreview.com/product/amplification/integrated-amplifiers/audio-note/soro-se.html

https://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Amplifier-Tube/Audio-Note/Soro-SE/set/18318.html

Looking at the various reviews I can find for the Soro and based on my personal experience of the S500 as Mike say I would expect them to be similar sounding amps.

Now for the solid state amp, I am not sure is it is a Rega Mira or Brio that Mike has, or both, but in either case these have reasonable power outputs. An interesting review for the Brio https://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/rega-brio-integrated-amplifier and the comment "Listening commenced with a pair of PMC twenty5.23 floor standing speaker, this is an expensive speaker for the amp and one that proved a little too difficult to control in the bass for the Brio. Moving over to the standmount twenty5.22 proved a far more rewarding experience, this delivered highly coherent tabla playing, lots of low level detail and inspired some ‘air bass’ playing when that instrument joined the mix, always a good sign in my book. With this speaker you get bass weight and excellent timing, it isn’t fat bass it's tuneful melodic bass that makes the music swing."

A few other comments I came across for the Rega's was the could sound a little warm down in the low end, which may explain why Mike prefers them for Rock music.

The speakers I believe Mike generally uses are AN J's and these are efficient, sensitivity of 93dB, so the valve amps should be able to drive them reasonably easily, and the Rega should find them easy.

My experience with AN S500's was with Snell type J's and KEF Reference 3.2's, as you no doubt will recognise very different speaker designs. So I originally has Snell J's and had them for at least 5-6 years, and enjoyed them greatly, during that period due to the limitation of the 3 rooms that I had the hifi in I was forced into a close listening set up and bass was not particularly an issue, although some times on heavy rock I felt that I would have liked a bit more oomph. So we moved house again and this had a reasonably large lounge, I had the option of 2 listening positions, close field about 9' from them and a least twice that distance. What became quickly apparent was that the J's were reasonably fine at close listening but if I went away from this then I needed to crank the amp up several notches and drive the speakers harder, this did not cause any noticeable distortion at all, but comments from SWMBO. I then got the KEF's and immediately it was obvious I was getting the desired bass impact but at lower volumes, this was due to speaker type/design.

So what is my point, well if I recall correctly from previous threads of Mike's where he lives means he cannot turn things up too loud without risking complaints, also his listening room is limiting on speaker and listening position. So if this is the case then he is probably forced to listen at lower volumes and in which case will not necessarily get the oomph he is looking for in certain music, certainly with the J's. In my personal experience if you want to get a good sounding bass at lower levels then you need to shift more air, in other words bigger drivers to push more volume, much less that 10" won't do it IMO. So here is the rub, as most of us know reasonably well along with bigger drivers comes the issue of the damping factor and the ability of the amp to not get overrun by the feedback from the speaker drive (in simple terms). But in my experience you need to start driving a speaker quite hard for this to happen even with a SET. Apart from that we enter into the bigger box issue and how that works in a room. Another option is to go for the floor stander with multiple drivers, the more you have the more air you will shift at the low end.

This actually holds true with my personal recent experience as well, I have a SET 300B amp putting out a max of 12w. I previously had a pair of Tannoy Legacy Arden's and they sounded very nice indeed, lots of low end bass and even at volumes. However there was a big but, and that was the aesthetics and the impact on the lounge, my wife was not that happy with this at all. So I found a compromise, a pair if Wilson Benesch Vectors, a well designed floor stander, they sound great across the frequency range, but the compromise is that they only go down to about 36hz, whereas the Tannoys were down at 20hz, I have measured both. I still get a very similar listening experience, in anything the mid/top is slightly better, but if I want to feel the low end then I have to turn it up and little, what am I missing some very low organ notes and very large drums, which are not on that many recordings, so to change that then a sub-woofer would be the next step.

So what I am trying to get across is that before Mike goes amp swapping, unless he wants to, his best course of action IMO would be to try some speakers with larger drivers in his room with his amps and see if he likes what he hears. 12" Tannoys, JBLs and I am sure there are many others that many can recommend. As long as they have a sensitivity of 89dB or more they should be fine with the amps. One speaker for Mike to consider is a pair of Impulse H2's, different again as they are horns, but very efficient, musical and great bass, but quite large boxes, yes I have had a pair but SWMBO got me to move them on.

I did not intend to write quite so much but hope that this may be of some help to Mike in working out what to do .

[Marco]

Good post, Adrian (lots of useful info there for Mike to consider), but just one point... Personally, I wouldn't use a valve amp with any speakers under 90db efficiency, and crucially, which are also an easy load.

Marco.

[Macca]

Sorry but I've heard many people claim so and so small wattage valve amp drive their low efficiency beefy floor standers with ease to take this as gospel.

Big floorstanders tend to be efficient, much more so than small speakers. Although there's the odd exception both ways.

Plus valve amps tend to clip softly so you can listen to them while they are clipping without the sound getting hard or harsh. It will get a bit mushy though.

[Marco]

Yup, but for me that 'mushiness' is as offensive to the ears as any hard-clipping from an SS amp. Dreadful!!:spew:

That's why I always like having sufficient headroom, in a system in order to prevent any clipping, and so that you don't have to listen loudly in order for music to have palpable weight and scale, and therefore realism.

And the best way to achieve that is to have 'more watts than you need' (much like bhp in a car), to provide that headroom and create a sense of 'effortlessness' when reproducing even the most demanding types of music, plus easy to drive, efficient speakers:)

TBH, one of the major ways audio has lost its way in modern times is the dearth of such of designs and the abundant creation of the opposite [goodness knows why you'd want to make the job of an amplifier difficult], simply because 'watts are cheap' (at least SS ones), but it takes a lot of money and/or engineering prowess, plus the use of quality materials, to design genuinely high quality, high-efficiency loudspeakers.

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

Good post, Adrian (lots of useful info there for Mike to consider), but just one point... Personally, I wouldn't use a valve amp with any speakers under 90db efficient, and crucially, which are also an easy load.

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Yes in general I would tend to agree, with my 12w SET the Tannoy Legacy Arden's worked fine 93 dB (1 W @ 1 m), as did the Sensitivity 96dB/W, 8ohms. The KEF Model 3.2's had sensitivity of 91dB at 1m/2.83V (anechoic conditions), and they worked well with the AI S500. The JLB Century 100's also worked very well, when on paper they might not Nominal Impedance: 8 ohm Efficiency: 78 dB Sound pressure Level at distance of 15', 1 watt input, this roughly equates to 91dB at 1m (there is a calculation to work this out), and are reported to be fine with amps down to 10w.

The WB Vectors are sensitivity: 89dB spl at 1metre on axis. 2.83V input, impedance: 6 Ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum. You would think this would not work that well but in fact they will put out some very high volumes without distorting, so that probably says something about the Allnic T1500 amp design, which is a rather more expensive amp. They say "Natural negative feedback. The T-1500 applies about -6dB of negative feedback. This is a very complimentary amount of negative feedback that differentiates the Allnic 300B single ended amplifier from the standard, which has a very coloured and weak speaker driving force. With this natural feedback, the T-1500 has a relatively high “damping factor’, very low distortion, and a higher S/N ratio, without losing the signature single ended natural sound quality."

I cannot find the damping factor for the AI S500, but recall the manufacturer said it was reasonable when I visited them in Brighton.

I have a rough understanding of load on an amp, but from what I have read I do not believe it is quite that straight forward.

"Impedance curves and phase angles tell you more. There are speakers that have 84db sensitivity that are easy to drive and speakers rated at 96db that are tricky to drive.

Speakers being easy to drive having generally high sensitivity is correlation not cause.

Because impedence curves and phase angles are rarely available and you might not understand them if they were, your absolute best guage of easy to drive is:

The advice of a good dealer.
Speaker manufacturer’s minimum power rating.
Voxative, Decware, Klipsh (naff), Omega all make speakers to be driven by valve amps of as little as 2 watts. JBL, have sensitivity below 90db yet are also fairly fleapower friendly from 10w and up."

[Barry]

I once had a 12.5W SS amp that struggled to drive 83dB/W speakers to anything like a realistic level. Yet a 15W (EL34s) or a 10W (EL84s) valve amplifier are/were more than sufficient.

[AJSki2fly]

I once had a 12.5W SS amp that struggled to drive 83dB/W speakers to anything like a realistic level. Yet a 15W (EL34s) or a 10W (EL84s) valve amplifier are/were more than sufficient.

:thumbsup::)

[Marco]

I once had a 12.5W SS amp that struggled to drive 83dB/W speakers to anything like a realistic level. Yet a 15W (EL34s) or a 10W (EL84s) valve amplifier are/were more than sufficient.

I suspect we may have to agree to differ on what is considered as 'sufficient'...;)

I like to know that, should I choose, I can crank up the volume with some hard-hitting metallica, and KNOW that the sound won't fall apart (but instead remain visceral and fully controlled) - just like I like to KNOW that when I'm cruising along the motorway at 65mph, in my 3.5L Merc, that one blip of the throttle will take me considerably faster, totally effortlessly, should I feel the urge!:eyebrows:

Audio is the same. I hate being subjected to any forms of 'restriction', with indeed anything else in life, so that's why I always like having 'plenty in reserve'... I wouldn't use 83db speakers on principle for that reason (unless driven by a 500w amp) as it simply goes against the grain.

Marco.

[Barry]

I have no option - that is the sensitivity of Quad 57s.

I did say "more than sufficient": at the moment with my current amplification (50W or less), I can rattle the pictures on the wall and 'make the earth move'!

[Marco]

Ah, so it was your Quads... They're a bit different though, in terms of how they're designed and present music. I certainly wouldn't use any box speakers though that were so painfully inefficient.

The efficiency thing though has been hammered home to me recently, simply through going from 87db Ditton XRs, in the downstairs system, to 90db older Dittons.

The HUGE positive effect, in terms of the sound, and therefore my listening pleasure, that 3db has made is quite incredible. I just always prefer having speakers that are easy to drive, as for me with any sort of decent amp, there's no downside.

Marco.

[Macca]

Yup, but for me that 'mushiness' is as offensive to the ears as any hard-clipping from an SS amp. Dreadful!!:spew:

That's why I always like having sufficient headroom, in a system in order to prevent any clipping, and so that you don't have to listen loudly in order for music to have palpable weight and scale, and therefore realism.

And the best way to achieve that is to have 'more watts than you need' (much like bhp in a car), to provide that headroom and create a sense of 'effortlessness' when reproducing even the most demanding types of music, plus easy to drive, highly efficient speakers:)

TBH, one of the major ways audio has lost its way in modern times is the dearth of such of designs and the abundant creation of the opposite [goodness knows why you'd want to make the job of an amplifier difficult], simply because 'watts are cheap' (at least when it comes to SS ones), but it takes a lot of money and/or engineering prowess, plus the use of quality materials, to design genuinely high quality, high-efficiency loudspeakers.

Marco.

I don't like the mush either which is why I don't use low power valve amps. I've tried but can't get the levels I like without the mushiness. But it's a big room and I don't like to listen right up close to the speakers.

[Marco]

Indeed, and in your room I can understand why... With valve amps, I can't stress enough how important having sufficient 'iron' is (heft, in terms of transformers), *if* you really want the best sound, and be able to reproduce any kind of music convincingly.

Therefore, if you can lift your valve amp, and not visibly grimace or grunt when doing so, then it doesn't have ENOUGH IRON! Simples:)

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

At risk of us taking over Mike's thread here is an interesting article https://audioxpress.com/article/differences-in-amp-sound-whats-the-truth, al though you may already have read it, the test at the bottom is quite interesting as well.

[Lawrence001]

Ah, so it was your Quads... They're a bit different though, in terms of how they're designed and present music. I certainly wouldn't use any box speakers though that were so painfully inefficient.

The efficiency thing though has been hammered home to me recently, simply through going from 87db Ditton XRs, in the downstairs system, to 90db older Dittons.

The HUGE positive effect, in terms of the sound, and therefore my listening pleasure, that 3db has made is quite incredible. I just always prefer having speakers that are easy to drive, as for me with any sort of decent amp, there's no downside.

Marco.I think the downside of sensitivity comes to speaker designers trying to build small speakers for modern tastes (small rooms or non hifi types who want them to be discrete) with a half decent bass response.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Yeah, but that's the owner's fault for living somewhere like that in the first place, or being a hapless 'WAF pussy'!:ner::eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

P.S My 90db 1960s Ditton 15s aren't exactly huge! And you could ably drive them with a 3W SET amp.

[anthonyTD]

I have a single ended design that i have been working on for a couple of years now, all directly coupled,up to 40 watts depending on the devices used, with a flat power bandwidth from a couple of hertz to over 250k, just don't seem to get the time these days to finaly finnish it!
Have you ever designed any solid state amps, Anthony? (probably a stupid question I know).

[Macca]

I think the downside of sensitivity comes to speaker designers trying to build small speakers for modern tastes (small rooms or non hifi types who want them to be discrete) with a half decent bass response.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Yes. It's Hoffman's Iron Law:

Hoffman’s Iron Laws of Speaker Building

1) Bass Extension

2) Efficiency

3) Small Enclosure

The law is that you can only have two of these three attributes in speaker building. Ideally we would want all three, we want speakers with good bass, can play really loud, and are small. Unfortunately we cannot have all these.

[spendorman]

Yeah, but that's the user's fault for living somewhere like that in the first place, or being a hapless 'WAF pussy'!:ner::eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

P.S My 90db 1960s Ditton 15s aren't exactly huge! And you could ably drive them with a 3W SET amp.

I thought, but could be wrong, that your Ditton 15's are the XR version, more like late 70's?

[Marco]

I have a single ended design that i have been working on for a couple of years now, all directly coupled,up to 40 watts depending on the devices used, with a flat power bandwidth from a couple of hertz to over 250k, just don't seem to get the time these days to finaly finnish it!

And don't forget your stunning Soulmate preamp, mate, in terms of the question Martin asked you;)

Marco.

[Marco]

I thought, but could be wrong, that your Ditton 15's are the XR version, more like late 70's?

Yes, that's my other pair, Alex. I've since bought a pair of 1967 originals, with Celestion HF1300 tweeters, etc, see from here onwards: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70424-The-Marco-boy-main-system-as-of-August-2020&p=1223379#post1223379

They blow away the XRs!:)

I still use an XR as a centre speaker in my home-cinema system to great effect, though.

Marco.

[spendorman]

Yes, that's my other pair, Alex. I've since bought a pair of 1967 originals, with Celestion HF1300 tweeters, etc, see from here onwards: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70424-The-Marco-boy-main-system-as-of-August-2020&p=1223379#post1223379

They blow away the XRs!:)

Marco.

I have three pairs of the original Ditton 15's, yes, the treble is good (lack of a supertweeter though, so limited very top end response), however, I find the midrange too coloured for my liking. I have two pairs of Ditton 10's, one very old 15 Ohm, pair and a later 8 Ohm pair, find them better in the mid then the 15, same HF1300 tweeter. It should be noted that the Ditton 10, County and Ditton 15 use a cheaper version of the HF1300, smaller magnet than in the Spendor BC1, LS3/6, Export Monitor, B&W DM1, DM2 and DM4.

[Marco]

Fair enough, Alex. I have no problem whatsoever with the top-end or midrange of the 15s in my system, and don't find the midrange coloured at all - quite the opposite in fact!:)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed, but i don't want to detract from mike's original thread, and so folk interested in anything i have been involved with Audio related over the last 25 years or so, can go to my site :)
And don't forget your stunning Soulmate preamp, mate, in terms of the question Martin asked you;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Sure, and you really should have a link to it on your signature!;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Here, I'll blow your trumpet for you, lol: https://tubedistinctions.co.uk/

Looking good, btw! Been considerably revamped since I last seen it:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Yes. It's Hoffman's Iron Law:

Hoffman’s Iron Laws of Speaker Building

1) Bass Extension

2) Efficiency

3) Small Enclosure


Indeed... I thought you were going to say something else though, in reference to 'iron' and valve amps, thus...

It's Hoffman's Iron Law:

1) Think your transformers are big enough, rude boy?

2) Think again.

3) ADD MORE IRON!

4) Repeat until you can't wipe the smile from your face.

:eyebrows::eyebrows:

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

I really don't think the issues I've been having are down to a lack of power as the soro is beefy enough, and the ANJs are very easy to drive. I reckon a lot of valve users never go anywhere near rock music, so never get the cause to complain. The s500 I have too has been modded with a power supply added, so there we go. Doing a lot of changing recently, with TTs and the like so hopefully can tweak sound more to my liking in that department. End of the day though, I still reckon I'll have to buy a an SS amp if I wanna rock out, I think a £1000 or just over is the most I'll pay for each component, so that rules out £3K for a valve amp that can do rock re Marcos reccomendation. Thanks for your reply Ade, the Rega amps I briefly tried didn;t work out for me, I found the Brio too brash and the Mira too smooth, even more so than Quad. I wanted something with bite to change to when listening to certain rock music, and the regas were too extreme in either direction. I could have played around different speakers etc but they fell at the first hurdle, so I thought just leave it, they're now on ebay. I'll be changing my living room around soon and the AN Js will have more freedom positioning wise, so I hope they'll sound a bit better then. With all this in mind, I wonder what carts I should buy next, one for the Garrard with a Mayware tonearm, and one for the 1210 GR with 750D, might aim cheap and have more choice, old Shures etc.

[Pharos]

I think that it was from the late 70s on that the concept of making amplifiers characterless became a clear objective, facilitated by O/P devices like the 2N3055 making greater power O/P possible.

In about '73 my Nelson Jones 10+10 failed in one channel and I borrowed a very good Lowther design with EL84s, it was clearly muffled in comparison and the bass sloppy.

The fault was a BC 107 with an intermittent manufactured fault, and once replaced the return of the NJ was a relief. I used to run it into Gold 15s at max, near clipping, and think that as long as one is below clipping it is OK, but since the advent of digital we have greater dynamic range.

I think that as long as the power supplies are of sufficient current capability, and that capacitors large enough, the iron is not that important, transients are taken care of by those caps. Typically amps can take seconds for their power supplies to discharge.

[Marco]

I think that as long as the power supplies are of sufficient current capability, and that capacitors large enough, the iron is not that important, transients are taken care of by those caps.

Not in my experience, Dennis, where the 'bigger the better' has always proved true, in terms of giving the partnering amp the 'headroom' it needs to reproduce the most demanding aspects of music - and not just with valve amps either - all my gear uses significantly 'overspecced' PSUs, some hugely so, such as the PSU for my turntable, which is big enough to power a large amplifier, same with the PSUs in my Sony DAC, which is the reason it weighs 38kg!

Perhaps Anthony could comment on this matter?:)

In the meantime, have a read of this article: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/power-supplies-are-equal-in-importance-to-amplifier-circuits/

My favourite quote:

"Knowledge and hubris are powerful cocktails that keep us from learning. I needed to pull my head out of the expert’s books and venture into the wild unknown where discovery and progress are made."

So true.... That message needs drumming into every arrogant, stubborn-headed objectivist, who believes that everything that there is to know about audio is already known... Get yer heads out of yer freakin' text books, and LEARN more by living in the real world and applying some LATERAL THINKING!

:exactly:

Marco.

[Barry]

Physically small output transformers (that is, ones using a small core) will tend to saturate at low frequencies, so the amp will have a curtailed bass response.

For a good bass response you need big output transformers with plenty of iron in them.

[AJSki2fly]

Not in my experience, Dennis, where the 'bigger the better' has always proved true, in terms of giving the partnering amp the 'headroom' it needs to reproduce the most demanding aspects of music - and not just with valve amps either - all my gear uses significantly 'overspecced' PSUs, some hugely so, such as the PSU for my turntable, which is big enough to power a large amplifier, same with the PSUs in my Sony DAC, which is the reason it weighs 38kg!

Perhaps Anthony could comment on this matter?:)

In the meantime, have a read of this article: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/power-supplies-are-equal-in-importance-to-amplifier-circuits/

My favourite quote:

"Knowledge and hubris are powerful cocktails that keep us from learning. I needed to pull my head out of the expert’s books and venture into the wild unknown where discovery and progress are made."

So true.... That message needs drumming into every arrogant, stubborn-headed objectivist, who believes that everything that there is to know about audio is already known... Get yer heads out of yer freakin' text books, and LEARN more by living in the real world and applying some LATERAL THINKING!

:exactly:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

I find your post a bit odd for you, you argue at the start that big is best for transformer for all amps and other gear, but then at the end you state that you should try other things and not assume all done before in audio and presumably other areas is correct, are you arguing with yourself? [emoji6]

Also in an earlier post you referred to big is better and your 3.2 l Merc (very nice by the way), however I would point you to a bottom of the range Tesla which I think would leave your dead from any speed, so a case of new is probably better, and of course if you want smaller aspirated then I thing a current F1 1600cc even with electric boost off might have a bit more oomph!

I am just glad we are still not living with mobile phones from the 80’s, under the auspices of bigger is better.[emoji3]

Cheers

Adrian

[Macca]

Thankfully someone in the comments section spells it out (my bold). Pretty much anything Paul at PD Audio says is thinly disguised marketing for PS Audio. You can't blame him, that's his job, but probably not the best person to quote to back up an argument, especially when it is a bit of a strawman in the first place.

''Paul, while I agree with your idea that power supplies are just as important as the circuit they are powering, I do not agree with your use of the word “engineer” in you comments.

Take the word “engineer” and replace that with “weekend electronics hobbyist” or ” service technician” and it will then be an accurate representation of today’s subject.

An educated EE most certainly understands the importance or lack there of in some cases of the power supply. That schematic you show is from a service manual. It does not show all the current nodes for one example which a competent EE would take into consideration with the design.

Please don’t assume because you found the importance of power supplies by accident at 25 years into your career, that formal training does not teach this within the first four years. This is the whole point of formal education, be it self researched or by instruction. Where doesn’t really matter much anymore. In fact today with the internet anyone can become a pretty good EE just from self study if so motivated. But 30 years ago we didn’t have that option.

To summarize, today’s post once again suggests the professional engineering community is lacking competence in certain areas but PS Audio knows better. That is not the case. Again the I said the EE community as a whole. There is incompetence in any field and electrical engineering is no exception either.''

[Jac Hawk]

I really don't think the issues I've been having are down to a lack of power as the soro is beefy enough, and the ANJs are very easy to drive. I reckon a lot of valve users never go anywhere near rock music, so never get the cause to complain. The s500 I have too has been modded with a power supply added, so there we go. Doing a lot of changing recently, with TTs and the like so hopefully can tweak sound more to my liking in that department. End of the day though, I still reckon I'll have to buy a an SS amp if I wanna rock out, I think a £1000 or just over is the most I'll pay for each component, so that rules out £3K for a valve amp that can do rock re Marcos reccomendation. Thanks for your reply Ade, the Rega amps I briefly tried didn;t work out for me, I found the Brio too brash and the Mira too smooth, even more so than Quad. I wanted something with bite to change to when listening to certain rock music, and the regas were too extreme in either direction. I could have played around different speakers etc but they fell at the first hurdle, so I thought just leave it, they're now on ebay. I'll be changing my living room around soon and the AN Js will have more freedom positioning wise, so I hope they'll sound a bit better then. With all this in mind, I wonder what carts I should buy next, one for the Garrard with a Mayware tonearm, and one for the 1210 GR with 750D, might aim cheap and have more choice, old Shures etc.

I must disagree, i've recently moved over to valves and am currently running a Primaluna Evo 400 integrated with EL34's through Kralk Audio TDB12's, anyone who has heard my system will agree that it doesn't lack in the "gut wrenching bass" department, music like the propeller heads decks and drums and rock and roll is delivered in spades with fantastic deep well controlled bass.

[Ali Tait]

I really don't think the issues I've been having are down to a lack of power as the soro is beefy enough, and the ANJs are very easy to drive. I reckon a lot of valve users never go anywhere near rock music, so never get the cause to complain. The s500 I have too has been modded with a power supply added, so there we go. Doing a lot of changing recently, with TTs and the like so hopefully can tweak sound more to my liking in that department. End of the day though, I still reckon I'll have to buy a an SS amp if I wanna rock out, I think a £1000 or just over is the most I'll pay for each component, so that rules out £3K for a valve amp that can do rock re Marcos reccomendation. Thanks for your reply Ade, the Rega amps I briefly tried didn;t work out for me, I found the Brio too brash and the Mira too smooth, even more so than Quad. I wanted something with bite to change to when listening to certain rock music, and the regas were too extreme in either direction. I could have played around different speakers etc but they fell at the first hurdle, so I thought just leave it, they're now on ebay. I'll be changing my living room around soon and the AN Js will have more freedom positioning wise, so I hope they'll sound a bit better then. With all this in mind, I wonder what carts I should buy next, one for the Garrard with a Mayware tonearm, and one for the 1210 GR with 750D, might aim cheap and have more choice, old Shures etc.

I've used quite a few different valve amps, as well as SS, but the fastest amp with the best bass I've used at home was a 4w single ended OTL.

[Marco]

Hi Adrian.


I find your post a bit odd for you, you argue at the start that big is best for transformer for all amps and other gear, but then at the end you state that you should try other things and not assume all done before in audio and presumably other areas is correct, are you arguing with yourself?


Lol - not at all, and I'm surprised you find it odd. In hi-fi, I judge things using the God-given senses I was born with, and ultimately trust them most, not science, as that's the route that has taken me to owning a truly superb system, and one that I'm delighted with, and can live with and will use for years.

This is often in sharp contrast to the 'science first' folk, who are often never satisfied for more than 5 mins and constantly box-swapping! :ner:

I'm exaggerating a little, of course, but my basic point remains: in the final analysis, TRUST YOUR EARS above ALL else!

Therefore, what I'm saying is that if to your ears something clearly works, and the science backs it up, as with the case of using large mains transformers in amps, then cool, but if not, and you're still convinced that what you're hearing is right, then go with your gut instincts [trust your senses], because there's still plenty to learn in audio that science hasn't yet proved!

And that is the point that Paul was making in the article I linked to, and I agree with every word (and his sentiments), simply because experience bears it out!


Also in an earlier post you referred to big is better and your 3.2 l Merc (very nice by the way), however I would point you to a bottom of the range Tesla which I think would leave your dead from any speed, so a case of new is probably better, and of course if you want smaller aspirated then I thing a current F1 1600cc even with electric boost off might have a bit more oomph!


Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully-regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'. There of course are other variables to consider, but more often than not, it holds true.

So despite what the science may say to the contrary (if indeed it does), that's just what my experience tells me - and THAT is ultimately all I care about!!:cool:

Marco.

P.S I wouldn't touch a homogenised, soulless electric car if you paid me. I'll be a 'petrolhead' to the death!!;)

[Marco]

Thankfully someone in the comments section spells it out (my bold). Pretty much anything Paul at PD Audio says is thinly disguised marketing for PS Audio. You can't blame him, that's his job, but probably not the best person to quote to back up an argument, especially when it is a bit of a strawman in the first place.

''Paul, while I agree with your idea that power supplies are just as important as the circuit they are powering, I do not agree with your use of the word “engineer” in you comments.

Take the word “engineer” and replace that with “weekend electronics hobbyist” or ” service technician” and it will then be an accurate representation of today’s subject.

An educated EE most certainly understands the importance or lack there of in some cases of the power supply. That schematic you show is from a service manual. It does not show all the current nodes for one example which a competent EE would take into consideration with the design.

Please don’t assume because you found the importance of power supplies by accident at 25 years into your career, that formal training does not teach this within the first four years. This is the whole point of formal education, be it self researched or by instruction. Where doesn’t really matter much anymore. In fact today with the internet anyone can become a pretty good EE just from self study if so motivated. But 30 years ago we didn’t have that option.

To summarize, today’s post once again suggests the professional engineering community is lacking competence in certain areas but PS Audio knows better. That is not the case. Again the I said the EE community as a whole. There is incompetence in any field and electrical engineering is no exception either.''

In your humble opinion, of course. I fully agree with Paul's sentiments, simply because experience bears it out! And I've said, that's ultimately all I care about. Fuck yer text books. The more you fret over specs and measurements, the less satisfied or contented you are - that's MY experience.

Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!:)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully-regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'. There of course are other variables to consider, but more often than not, it holds true.

Makes a helluva lot of sense. Not just amplifiers and cars but motorcycles as well. Gob's full of reserve power and grunt.

[Marco]

Indeed - that for me is what it's all about, both with engines and hi-fi!:hairmetal:

I don't do 'weedy' - EVER!

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Indeed - that for me is what it's all about, both with engines and hi-fi!:hairmetal:

I don't do 'weedy' - EVER!

Marco.

I did up to my latest power amp. There is no looking back now though. I firmly believe that low powered units are no longer for me. Once again, live and learn.

[Macca]

In your humble opinion, of course. I fully agree with Paul's sentiments, simply because experience bears it out! And I've said, that's ultimately all I care about. Fuck yer text books. The more you fret over specs and measurements, the less satisfied or contented you are - that's MY experience.

Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!:)

Marco.

I think you've missed the point.

Paul of PS audio makes his original post with the purpose of suggesting to less well-informed punters that most manufacturers neglect to provide adequate power supplies whereas PS Audio do not.


The reply to Paul of PS Audio that I quoted simply points out to him that electronic engineers are well-aware of the importance of power supplies and this does not contravene anything in 'the textbooks.'

In other words the whole thing is a strawman that Paul sets up and knocks down as a sales tactic. He does that a lot and he's far from the only one.

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Adrian.



Lol - not at all, and I'm surprised you find it odd. In hi-fi I judge things using the God-given senses I was born with, and ultimately trust them most, not science, as that's the route that has taken me to owning a truly superb system, and one that I'm delighted with and can live with and will use for years.

This is often in sharp contrast to the 'science first' folk, who are often never satisfied for more than 5 mins and constantly box-swapping! :ner:

I'm exaggerating a little, of course, but my basic point remains: in the final analysis, TRUST YOUR EARS above ALL else!



Yes I quite agree, if what you hear you like then stick with it, unfortunately I went through a confused phase of box swapping as was I was hearing did not satisfy me fully, some aspects were good others poor, unfortunately at the time there were several areas of my system causing different issues. Eventually I got to the bottom of it and my ears now hear nice sounds, but it was a bit painful getting there. :)





Firstly, my point was about headroom, and in that respect a big engine will feel more effortless and comfortable to drive at high speeds than a smaller engine, ditto the same with an amplifier fitted with an over-specced fully regulated linear PSU, reproducing music, especially with demanding stuff, compared with one fitted with something 'punier'.

Despite what the science says, that's just what my experience tells me - and THAT is ultimately all I care about!!:cool:

Marco.

P.S I wouldn't touch a homogenised, soulless electric car if you paid me. I'll be a 'petrolhead' to the death!!;)

This is quite and interesting article on transformers, https://www.hifinews.com/content/know-your-transformers

My understanding is that the higher the damping factor that an amplifier has then the better its ability to managed higher feedback from transducers(speakers) effectively damping the induced current as a result of the speaker returning to its resting position, simplistic explaination I know. So it this why big is better?

With respect to cars, I personally have had quite a few high powered and large engined beasts, several 4ltr V8's, a 3.6L V6, a 5L flat 12, a couple of 3.2-3.6l flat 6's, all with a variety of power outputs, BHP/Torque, so know where you are coming from. If you have not been in a Tesla I think you would find it quite interesting. :eek:

[Macca]

Leave such things to the EEs and builders of equipment. End users should simply judge using their ears: that's the subjectivist approach, and indeed the AoS one!:)

Marco.

So I'm going to have a demo of every (for example) amplifier in existence before I make my choice of which one to buy? It isn't practical to select hi-fi by listening alone.

You have to narrow it down to a point where it is practical to test them using your ears. So what is the best way to compile that shortlist? Look at the engineering quality and the measured performance and use it to rule out the tat.

You may have a good system but how do you know you couldn't have had a better system and maybe for less money? You can't listen to everything that's available, let alone every combination of everything that's available. You'd have to live to be a million years old.

[Marco]

So I'm going to have a demo of every (for example) amplifier in existence before I make my choice of which one to buy? It isn't practical to select hi-fi by listening alone.

You have to narrow it down to a point where it is practical to test them using your ears. So what is the best way to compile that shortlist? Look at the engineering quality and the measured performance and use it to rule out the tat.

You may have a good system but how do you know you couldn't have had a better system and maybe for less money? You can't listen to everything that's available, let alone every combination of everything that's available. You'd have to live to be a million years old.

You just do some research on whatever you're intending to buy (and in that respect I largely use user feedback, not specs, for validation of its potential efficacy), then make a judgement call on it, and trust your gut instincts.

I haven't 'auditioned' anything, or been near a dealer's premises in YEARS, yet I frequently manage to buy gear using the above process with no problems whatsoever, and usually end up totally satisfied with my purchases - that's WHY I don't need to box-swap!

Look at my Gallery thread, and the amount of stuff I've been buying recently, from cartridges, stylii and SUTs, to speakers, cables, headphones and headphone amps - much of it from the other end of the world, and NONE of it was auditioned or chosen from specs! Just simply through thorough research, and ultimately having the balls to trust my instincts.

Fortunately, all of it was a success, therefore I'll be owing and enjoying those items for many years. And I've adopted the same system-building process too, for YEARS, long before AoS was born, and made VERY few mistakes along the way. Every single part of both of my current systems was chosen using that methodology.

Do you honestly think that's just pure luck?;)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

trust your gut instincts.

Marco.

Mine tell me I'd be having a chat with Colin Wonfor if I had the dosh.

[Marco]

Yeah, Colin's as sound as a pound - and an 'expert' who TRULY deserves the title, when so many don't!:)

Marco.

[Macca]

You just do some research on whatever you're intending to buy (and in that respect I largely use user feedback, not specs, for validation of its potential efficacy), then make a judgement call on it, and trust your gut instincts.

I haven't 'auditioned' anything, or been near a dealer's premises in YEARS, yet I frequently manage to buy gear using the above process with no problems whatsoever, and end up totally satisfied with my purchases - that's WHY I don't need to box-swap!

Look at my Gallery thread, and the amount of stuff I've been buying recently, from cartridges, stylii and SUTs, to speakers, headphones and headphone amps - much of it from the other end of the world, and NONE of it was auditioned or chosen from specs! Just simply through thorough research, and ultimately having the balls to trust my instincts.

Fortunately, all of it was a success, therefore I'll be owing and enjoying those items for many years. And I've adopted the same system-building process too, for YEARS, long before AoS was born, and made VERY few mistakes along the way. Every single part of both of my current systems was chosen using that methodology.

Do you honestly think that's just pure luck?;)

Marco.

I never said that. Obviously experience helps, likewise a decent budget to spend in the first place. If you buy equipment that has solid engineering chops behind it you're not likely to go far wrong. Whether you do that through experience and gut instinct or by studying form makes no difference to the outcome.

I don't tend to put much, if any, faith in subjective reviews because I know - from experience - that personal taste and, to an extent, expectations, differ wildly.

As far as this forum is concerned I know my personal taste in presentation differs substantially from the bulk of the membership. This, by extension, can be applied across the hobby as a whole. So I prefer to look at specs and measurements to decide if something is well-engineered and worth a punt, as opposed to just relying on the 'what someone thought when they listened to it' method.

Shortlist so derived, I take a punt, then I have an extensive listen, usually with various combinations of other kit that I already have.

It's not infallible but then neither is your method or you would still be settled with your old Naim/Spendor system.

[Mr. C]

Valves amps can rock really well *if you have the right ones* no question, just think what are the Marshal 4 x 40 cabs powered by? :D

[anthonyTD]

I think you mean 4 x 12 ? ;)
Valves amps can rock really well *if you have the right ones* no question, just think what are the Marshal 4 x 40 cabs powered by? :D

[Marco]

I never said that. Obviously experience helps, likewise a decent budget to spend in the first place. If you buy equipment that has solid engineering chops behind it you're not likely to go far wrong. Whether you do that through experience and gut instinct or by studying form makes no difference to the outcome.

I don't tend to put much, if any, faith in subjective reviews because I know - from experience - that personal taste and, to an extent, expectations, differ wildly.

As far as this forum is concerned I know my personal taste in presentation differs substantially from the bulk of the membership. This, by extension, can be applied across the hobby as a whole. So I prefer to look at specs and measurements to decide if something is well-engineered and worth a punt, as opposed to just relying on the 'what someone thought when they listened to it' method.

Shortlist so derived, I take a punt, then I have an extensive listen, usually with various combinations of other kit that I already have.

It's not infallible but then neither is your method or you would still be settled with your old Naim/Spendor system.

Yes, but I've learned SO much since then, particularly about achieving the highest SPPV, and have stuck with largely the same system since - and that was 2009! How many systems or different bits of kit have you gone through in that time - and where are you now?;)

And here's the thing.... In REAL terms, how much progress have you made?

I know, beyond question, that if I were to return to my previous Naim/Spendor system, it would be a massive downgrade on what I've got now - and crucially - assembled at lower cost. Back in my Naim days, I was dropping £8k on the likes of a brand new NAC52 and Supercap PSU and not batting an eyelid, or £6k on a CDSII/XPSII.

But I learned from my mistakes, and how to spend that money FAR more wisely!

One of the telling tests for me, in terms of ascertaining if someone's on the right path or not, or if they really know what they're doing, easily facilitated if they're a friend you see regularly for example, is assessing whether the sound that they had going on, as it were, say 10 years ago is notably improved by the sound they've got going on now.

Often, however, that isn't the case and its usually only different, or often worse, and so in real terms they've gone BACKWARDS more than forwards, and subsequently so has their bank balance, with all the swapping and changing!:doh:

Quite simply, if you *really* know what you're doing and have good ears, then EVERY new system you own, or change of component, should effect a GENUINE no-brainer sonic improvement, acknowledged and heard by others listening to it, who also have good ears and had heard the sound that preceded it.

THAT is how you move forward and make genuine progress, so if your system of 2020 doesn't sound markedly better than the one you had in 2010, despite being able to chuck the same amount of time and money at it, then unfortunately you've failed. That's the brutal truth. Now I'm not saying that applies to you, but judging by the evidence I see so often on forums, sadly it applies to countless others.

And yes, no judgement criteria or approach is perfect, and that includes mine and yours, but at the end of the day for END USERS of gear, not builders or EEs, this *should* be a subjectivist hobby, and therefore ultimately our ears should always be the ones to decide, not what's contained in any text journals, Johnny's book on the laws of physics, or otherwise, or some erroneous quest for 'accuracy', as for me that road, for most, will ultimately lead to frustration and disappointment.

Marco.

[Macca]

Yes, but I've learned SO much since then, particularly about achieving the highest SPPV, and have stuck with largely the same system system since - and that was 2009! How many systems or different bits of kit have you gone through in that time - and where are you now?;)

And here's the thing.... In REAL terms, how much progress have you made?
.

All the progress I needed to. I was done and dusted, had a superb sound, exactly what I'd been after all these years. Then the amp went faulty. Try finding another Krell KSA50S for sale in Europe. If you can I'll buy it. There's just not that many and the owners hang onto them like their balls.

Also don't forget that I have the separate hobby of being into the equipment. I also buy kit just to see what it is like, or to revisit stuff I had years ago, or because I just like the looks of it.

Your suggestion that it is only 'objectivists' who are chopping and changing all the time is well wide of the mark. I'd say they are less likely to go chasing rainbows myself. You may say that their systems are not that good but that's just one man's subjective opinion.

[Mr. C]

Sorry Tony

I was getting all Ritchie Blackmore'd for a moment there mine starts at 11 :lol:

Have a few of those cabs kicking about Celeston drivers??? he had an extra driver stage giving around 270Watts from each cab I believe.

You want to buy another KSA50 Martin? I have at least two that are serviceable easily put back to correct condition

[anthonyTD]

:eek::D
Sorry Tony

I was getting all Ritchie Blackmore'd for a moment there mine starts at 11 :lol:

[Macca]

Sorry Tony

I was getting all Ritchie Blackmore'd for a moment there mine starts at 11 :lol:

Have a few of those cabs kicking about Celeston drivers??? he had an extra driver stage giving around 270Watts from each cab I believe.

You want to buy another KSA50 Martin? I have at least two that are serviceable easily put back to correct condition

Hi Tony - I'm after a KSA50S - I have a KSA100 but prefer the 50S. If you have one of those available we can definitely talk.

[Barry]

Changes of equipment? Well I'm:

Still using my first pickup arm (though I have others),

Still have my second, fourth and fifth pickup cartridges (as well as several others),

Still using my third turntable,

Now using my third, fourth and fifth CDPs,

Now using my second tuner (though I still have my first),

Still have my first, second and third preamp, although I now use my fourth and fifth (!),

Now using my fourth and fifth power amplifier (though I still have the third, as well as others),

And I'm still using my second set of speakers, which I have done for the last 45 years.


All chosen by reputation for good SQ, through reading reviews, looking at the build quality and the reliability - and virtually all of it is second hand. :)

Like Martin, I'm interested in audio equipment from a technical point of view as well as using it to enjoy music. Curiously the same does not apply to vision - I only have one TV (my third) and one DVD/Blu-ray player. Yet I have a fairly large collection of 35mm film cameras and lenses. :mental:

[Marco]

Hi Tony - I'm after a KSA50S - I have a KSA100 but prefer the 50S. If you have one of those available we can definitely talk.

See... Some good might've come out of me gently 'poking' you!:D;)

Hope you can get sorted out with another Krell.

Marco.

[Macca]

See... Some good might've come out of me gently 'poking' you!:D;)

Hope you can get sorted out with another Krell.

Marco.

Needs to be a 50S though, not a 50. Been looking for a year. Closest I got was a 100S in Germany.

[Marco]

Hopefully then Tony's got a 50S:)

Marco.

[Marco]

Or you could always buy the boards, here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-pair-KRELL-KSA50-Class-A-Power-amplifier-board-50W-50W-with-Angle-aluminum/112410375474?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item1a2c2e3532:g:oGgAAOSwrhBZHEs7&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252 Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkAgU0umhwUTmgTFbE5cu7zfrnNZo aWAeQcdiZ2QqHe0DvXFWcW1H6jKbtdqrzyIBg001ayVZCsxTIb NrLHWEVkLfIlaCeGEOY24c16CMrNPLEATvMqo7sYeL5IIOZypk Bnrrqi27hvJwPH2h%252FvSDWonVkQpSS%252BYIXqgc2g%252 BruHLY7sr2Xi36Q0QiHSgBsyvpiZgAvhLDKXrb%252FmeU6sNT lGg0FEgRCu4ec6CGi8z0u%252Fuv0wN%252BIzHXdwL8kzephZ RgYXrmQb9CsMT16XCbcPIy2U4J9DYkVidfVQb3xVLxp4b9QrG7 zTLSG9PurNspjGaoUjIQKME3Ipya7NS5%252BpD5mwtnxvIfj3 vD4CQYdhYuDuLGU0UkGWfD5nqeQTmRGkCvWyTboDx5cBUga%25 2FnNOgeRjwbtDXXkwpzNMEp%252BHUnaXYAyMU8%252B4nVuhS NM5snicxi0N4OVTquTaeoUUT5AnSJm5fMMkK3h8tM3a3AG7mxy QfomkMyeePQdAe%252FEbghyD1T03kyluO6s5EJObxMrJS71x9 k1Ie6H6nuuZWB5O2JakPxXPVcjHmOXkrJ%252Fc9%252F%252F O8SJXJ55NYuv48rWr%252BfoP6oUUg1za0s6Bdz5KjMC5Y2fxn V8TtD89SIWY8Hj0rWLqHCyTjnFhNU7AETa7Y7hH4psrkHQQpFA LABZsvEOB1rx09OoR%252Bh7u8xngPCTwswDNeMFUS1c43Xc2f NnYRRIHUo3aTQyuGVxoEUSqn6Rk1eCCVbq8EX0w6fIQO44GCCv Ijs6D%7Ccksum%3A1124103754742a7ff1b9f0e444e1a27c80 0ad5bdd98d%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

...and get one of the knowledgeable folks on AoS to finish and case it up for you:)

Marco.

[Macca]

Or you could always buy the boards, here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-pair-KRELL-KSA50-Class-A-Power-amplifier-board-50W-50W-with-Angle-aluminum/112410375474?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item1a2c2e3532:g:oGgAAOSwrhBZHEs7&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252 Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkAgU0umhwUTmgTFbE5cu7zfrnNZo aWAeQcdiZ2QqHe0DvXFWcW1H6jKbtdqrzyIBg001ayVZCsxTIb NrLHWEVkLfIlaCeGEOY24c16CMrNPLEATvMqo7sYeL5IIOZypk Bnrrqi27hvJwPH2h%252FvSDWonVkQpSS%252BYIXqgc2g%252 BruHLY7sr2Xi36Q0QiHSgBsyvpiZgAvhLDKXrb%252FmeU6sNT lGg0FEgRCu4ec6CGi8z0u%252Fuv0wN%252BIzHXdwL8kzephZ RgYXrmQb9CsMT16XCbcPIy2U4J9DYkVidfVQb3xVLxp4b9QrG7 zTLSG9PurNspjGaoUjIQKME3Ipya7NS5%252BpD5mwtnxvIfj3 vD4CQYdhYuDuLGU0UkGWfD5nqeQTmRGkCvWyTboDx5cBUga%25 2FnNOgeRjwbtDXXkwpzNMEp%252BHUnaXYAyMU8%252B4nVuhS NM5snicxi0N4OVTquTaeoUUT5AnSJm5fMMkK3h8tM3a3AG7mxy QfomkMyeePQdAe%252FEbghyD1T03kyluO6s5EJObxMrJS71x9 k1Ie6H6nuuZWB5O2JakPxXPVcjHmOXkrJ%252Fc9%252F%252F O8SJXJ55NYuv48rWr%252BfoP6oUUg1za0s6Bdz5KjMC5Y2fxn V8TtD89SIWY8Hj0rWLqHCyTjnFhNU7AETa7Y7hH4psrkHQQpFA LABZsvEOB1rx09OoR%252Bh7u8xngPCTwswDNeMFUS1c43Xc2f NnYRRIHUo3aTQyuGVxoEUSqn6Rk1eCCVbq8EX0w6fIQO44GCCv Ijs6D%7Ccksum%3A1124103754742a7ff1b9f0e444e1a27c80 0ad5bdd98d%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

...and get one of the knowledgeable folks on AoS to finish and case it up for you:)

Marco.

they are for the 50 not the 50S - they are not at all the same amplifier. You can pick up a 50 practically anywhere, the 50S is rare.

Alan has said he will fix the one I have so it will get done at some point. I'd like to have two so I've always got a spare though.

[Mikeandvan]

Listening to some jazz now, the spaciousness and live feel is great, but a stringency still exists in the high notes of sax/trumpet solos, which is hard to bear. My never ever ending gripe, no matter what system I have! Gonna try to get some vinyl versions of a few of my jazz cds, see if it helps.

[Marco]

they are for the 50 not the 50S - they are not at all the same amplifier. You can pick up a 50 practically anywhere, the 50S is rare.

Alan has said he will fix the one I have so it will get done at some point. I'd like to have two so I've always got a spare though.

Ah I see, I know nothing about Krells. If the one you've got can be fixed, then cool:)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Have you tried any other speaker cables recently Mike? They could be a source of brightness. It won't be the interconnects, Straight Wire stuff is well behaved.

[Marco]

Listening to some jazz now, the spaciousness and live feel is great, but a stringency still exists in the high notes of sax/trumpet solos, which is hard to bear. My never ever ending gripe, no matter what system I have! Gonna try to get some vinyl versions of a few of my jazz cds, see if it helps.

Have you tried any mains treatments, Mike? Or experimented with cables? Also, what kind of valves are you using in your amp - modern production or NOS?

All of the above, IME, could potentially contribute towards the "stringency" you mention.

Marco.

[Marco]

Have you tried any other speaker cables recently Mike? They could be a source of brightness. It won't be the interconnects, Straight Wire stuff is well behaved.

Great minds...;)

Also, IME, poor mains and cheap modern production valves can be a source of brightness.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Have you tried any mains treatments, Mike? Or experimented with cables? Also, what kind of valves are you using in your amp - modern production or NOS?

All of the above, IME, could potentially contribute towards the "stringency" you mention.

Marco.

Speaker cable is Van Damme LC-OFC, supposed to be on the warm side I believe. I also use a Power inspired mains regenerator. Not sure on the valves in the Soro, I'll plug the S500 back in tomorrow and see how that sounds.

[Mikeandvan]

Have you tried any other speaker cables recently Mike? They could be a source of brightness. It won't be the interconnects, Straight Wire stuff is well behaved.

Use Van damme lc-ofc.

[Marco]

Speaker cable is Van Damme LC-OFC, supposed to be on the warm side I believe. I also use a Power inspired mains regenerator. Not sure on the valves in the Soro, I'll plug the S500 back in tomorrow and see how that sounds.

It certainly won't be the Van Dammes - not sure about warm sounding, but they're not bright that's for sure. More neutral, I'd say. Mains regenerator sounds fine, what about mains leads - are you using anything decent there (I don't mean expensive), or just standard 'kettle leads'?

Defo check the valves, as IME a lot of modern production ones, especially Chinese and Russian varieties, can sound a little 'edgy'.

Marco.

[Pharos]

Not in my experience, Dennis, where the 'bigger the better' has always proved true, in terms of giving the partnering amp the 'headroom' it needs to reproduce the most demanding aspects of music - and not just with valve amps either - all my gear uses significantly 'overspecced' PSUs, some hugely so, such as the PSU for my turntable, which is big enough to power a large amplifier, same with the PSUs in my Sony DAC, which is the reason it weighs 38kg!

Perhaps Anthony could comment on this matter?:)

In the meantime, have a read of this article: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/power-supplies-are-equal-in-importance-to-amplifier-circuits/

My favourite quote:

"Knowledge and hubris are powerful cocktails that keep us from learning. I needed to pull my head out of the expert’s books and venture into the wild unknown where discovery and progress are made."

So true.... That message needs drumming into every arrogant, stubborn-headed objectivist, who believes that everything that there is to know about audio is already known... Get yer heads out of yer freakin' text books, and LEARN more by living in the real world and applying some LATERAL THINKING!

:exactly:

Marco.

If these rather forceful comments are directed specifically at me, I am offended by their tone, and find the post rather rude.

[Marco]

You can rest assured that they were not. I was making a general point aimed at folk with that type of blinkered, staunchly objectivist mentality, so unless you think that you qualify, then please be blissfully unoffended;)

Marco.

[Pharos]

I don't think that I qualify as an objectivist blind to truth, that would be an oxymoron. I do however think that the ear is an overrated instrument, it only transmits an electrical correlate of what it is receiving. The rest is done in the brain and this is very much 'software' (brain) effected, and so dependant on the individual's development.

My friend calls me deaf, and instructs me to get my ear trumpet, but I can hear the HD on my PVR at ten feet away, and he cannot with better hearing technically.

I have also designed and built power supplies, and I think I understand the relationship between 'iron', rectification and storage capacitance.

[Marco]

Well, I'm in no position to dispute any of that, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the importance of 'iron' in valve amps. For me, it's a LOT more significant than you think.

IME, there's no such a thing as 'too big' a power supply in ANY piece of audio equipment. As long as it's well designed and compliments the partnering circuit, bigger, in that respect with greater capacity (and heavier), will almost certainly mean better!:)

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

It certainly won't be the Van Dammes - not sure about warm sounding, but they're not bright that's for sure. More neutral, I'd say. Mains regenerator sounds fine, what about mains leads - are you using anything decent there (I don't mean expensive), or just standard 'kettle leads'?

Defo check the valves, as IME a lot of modern production ones, especially Chinese and Russian varieties, can sound a little 'edgy'.

Marco.

Mains leads? Well, just the standard one that came with the 1210 gr, the Mission cd player has a captive lead, the Soro looks like it has a decent thick lead, 'Rendar' brand. I got the amp from Steve - Bourney, pretty sure he said valves were changed, obvs to better ones.

[Marco]

Ok, I don't think your mains cables are an issue, and the Mission is noted for being quite a smooth sounding player. I'd defo check the valves in your amp, and note what make they are, and also what type?

You really want quality NOS valves in any decent valve amp, not currently produced stuff, as the difference can significant. Do me a favour and take some pics of what you've got, so I can see what we're dealing with:)

Marco.

[Pharos]

I certainly agree with you Marco re capacity, but of course economics is a factor.

[Marco]

Absolutely, however often expensive amps don't have the money spent *where it matters most*, and that's 'under the hood', as it were, or in the case of valve amps, over the hood. Instead, it's wasted on superfluous fripperies, such as ridiculously lavish [I'd say bling] casings, or control knobs constructed from solid billets of brass, in order to provide 'badge-snob' users with the comforting feeling of knowing that they own something 'reassuringly expensive'...:doh::rolleyes:

Therefore, the 'economics' side of things, in many instances, could ably be addressed, if some manufacturers focused on what ultimately matters, and spent more on making their products SOUND as good as possible, within the available budget, than pandering to the superficial snobs who obsess over bling, and would rather own a piece of vulgar 'jewellery', than an effective tool for reproducing music!

<Rant over>;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

There is of course sound advice in your ramblings,;) Unfortunetly in many instances manufacturers are torn between producing the equipment they want and know they should be making, and pandering to those who can actualy afford the kit, therefore, and more often than not, many manufacturers end up producing products that are a far cry from what they intended, something i have to say i too became very uncomfortable with a long time ago, hence i decided to try and stay true to myself, and just produce equipment that i Felt people would want to own for the right reason, i can tell you though staying true to yourself comes at a hefty cost, which is why many originaly enthusiastic and talented designers, and engineers end up taking as you quite rightly point out; the bling route :(


Therefore, the 'economics' side of things, in many instances, could ably be addressed, if some manufacturers focused more on what ultimately matters most and spent the money on making their products SOUND as good as possible, within the available budget, rather than pandering to the superficial idiots who obsess over bling and would rather own a piece of vulgar 'jewellery', than an effective tool for reproducing music!

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

The best valves for me over the years I've been involved with them were 300B's in PP mode. I then left valves behind only to return again to reinvent the wheel. In 2016 I returned to valves yet again with a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium power which lasted until maybe six months ago when I ditched valves yet again. That power amp was equipped with EL34's; it just didn't cut it with my main choice of music. So here I am with an Usher R1.5 power that gives amazing guts and punch but nowhere near the warmth of the Prima Luna. I now have amazing bass definition and superb stereo imagery but a thinner, less warm sound. I may have to consider a swap of preamp. Reinventing the wheel again..? Maybe.

;)

Valve amps from the past include: Audion Sterling ETSE, Audion 300B SE, Icon Audio Stereo 20PP, World Audio Design 300B PP, Yarland 300B SE.

The best valve make I have ever encountered were Gold Lion Genalex.

All my own findings of course.

[Mikeandvan]

Got the Audio Innovations S500 back in now, sounding good so far.

[Pharos]

There is of course sound advice in your ramblings,;) Unfortunetly in many instances manufacturers are torn between producing the equipment they want and know they should be making, and pandering to those who can actualy afford the kit, therefore, and more often than not, many manufacturers end up producing products that are a far cry from what they intended, something i have to say i too became very uncomfortable with a long time ago, hence i decided to try and stay true to myself, and just produce equipment that i Felt people would want to own for the right reason, i can tell you though staying true to yourself comes at a hefty cost, which is why many originaly enthusiastic and talented designers, and engineers end up taking as you quite rightly point out; the bling route :(

The problem extends beyond Hi-Fi, it is a malaise of capitalism.

We have an increasingly divided society, between the extremely rich and the poor. I argue that the former do not have to perceive with any great intensity, and probably live in a comfort zone.

The working classes - those who work for a living, including designers, and especially in industrial design and more so in Hi-Fi, spend hours scrutinising their designs. You must have been with people who work in the Hi-Fi industry and are constantly and obsessively trying to perceive differences, and improvements. I bet Lawrence Dickie is such, and I know T. de P. is.

Their raison d'etre is the move forward, and this takes hours of devotion and pain to get even an incremental move forward.

This, I guess, is an entirely different mindset from that of the extremely wealthy, and so, having designed and improved it, the marketeers now have to persuade people to buy it, but the improvement is probably only minimal. The marketeers then, along with the production guys, work out how to sell it. Hence often bling.

Dry subdued and subtle realism is not eye catching/attention grabbing in any area of life, people want excitement and sexy bang. Look at the currency of commodities amongst celebrities.

[anthonyTD]

:)
The problem extends beyond Hi-Fi, it is a malaise of capitalism.

We have an increasingly divided society, between the extremely rich and the poor. I argue that the former do not have to perceive with any great intensity, and probably live in a comfort zone.

The working classes - those who work for a living, including designers, and especially in industrial design and more so in Hi-Fi, spend hours scrutinising their designs. You must have been with people who work in the Hi-Fi industry and are constantly and obsessively trying to perceive differences, and improvements. I bet Lawrence Dickie is such, and I know T. de P. is.

Their raison d'etre is the move forward, and this takes hours of devotion and pain to get even an incremental move forward.

This, I guess, is an entirely different mindset from that of the extremely wealthy, and so, having designed and improved it, the marketeers now have to persuade people to buy it, but the improvement is probably only minimal. The marketeers then, along with the production guys, work out how to sell it. Hence often bling.

Dry subdued and subtle realism is not eye catching/attention grabbing in any area of life, people want excitement and sexy bang. Look at the currency of commodities amongst celebrities.

[Jac Hawk]

Absolutely, however often expensive amps don't have the money spent *where it matters most*, and that's 'under the hood', as it were, or in the case of valve amps, over the hood. Instead, it's wasted on superfluous fripperies, such as ridiculously lavish [I'd say bling] casings, or control knobs constructed from solid billets of brass, in order to provide 'badge-snob' users with the comforting feeling of knowing that they own something 'reassuringly expensive'...:doh::rolleyes:

Therefore, the 'economics' side of things, in many instances, could ably be addressed, if some manufacturers focused on what ultimately matters, and spent more on making their products SOUND as good as possible, within the available budget, than pandering to the superficial snobs who obsess over bling, and would rather own a piece of vulgar 'jewellery', than an effective tool for reproducing music!

<Rant over>;)

Marco.

One of the reasons i ended up buying a PrimaLuna, they don't seem scared to have you look under the hood as it were.

[AJSki2fly]

Got the Audio Innovations S500 back in now, sounding good so far.

Hi Mike, Good that it is sounding good, what valves are in it?

I used:-

https://www.hotroxuk.com/12ax7-ecc83-genalex-gold-lion.html *3

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-6922-e88cc.html *2

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-kt77.html (EL34 straight substitute)

Prior to the above it came with Electro Harmonix valves, they sounded good but the above gave more detail, definition and feeling of depth.

If you want more grunt then instead of EL34's or the KT77's you could try 6CA7 pentode, https://www.hotroxuk.com/electro-harmonix-6ca7eh.html

This might help as a guide on the EL34 output valves front, bear in mind the discussion is talking from a guitar amp perspective.

You need 2 matched pairs of the EL34's or equivalents.

[Macca]

The problem extends beyond Hi-Fi, it is a malaise of capitalism.

We have an increasingly divided society, between the extremely rich and the poor. I argue that the former do not have to perceive with any great intensity, and probably live in a comfort zone.

The working classes - those who work for a living, including designers, and especially in industrial design and more so in Hi-Fi, spend hours scrutinising their designs. You must have been with people who work in the Hi-Fi industry and are constantly and obsessively trying to perceive differences, and improvements. I bet Lawrence Dickie is such, and I know T. de P. is.

Their raison d'etre is the move forward, and this takes hours of devotion and pain to get even an incremental move forward.

This, I guess, is an entirely different mindset from that of the extremely wealthy, and so, having designed and improved it, the marketeers now have to persuade people to buy it, but the improvement is probably only minimal. The marketeers then, along with the production guys, work out how to sell it. Hence often bling.

Dry subdued and subtle realism is not eye catching/attention grabbing in any area of life, people want excitement and sexy bang. Look at the currency of commodities amongst celebrities.

Maybe if it wasn't for all the reviewers pushing the idea that expensive equals better sound quality then the market for the silly priced stuff would disappear. You don't have to go far to see reviewers advising that 'You really need to move up to a DAC in the £5K price range to hear an improvement' or some such nonsense. You even see punters on the forums repeating this.

Not that I think it matters any. I'd hardly describe it as a 'malaise of capitalism'. Rich people need to offload some of that surplus cash somewhere and it keeps people in jobs.

[Opti-cal]

If sticking with the S500 it might be worth considering trying some 6L6 valves. They do require a slightly higher voltage compared to the EL34 (I'm told for optimum performance) but in various EL34 amplifiers I have tried it was always an improvement.

I've also tried Gold Lion KT77's which gave a slightly more powerful SS signature grunt but didn't have the harmonics of EL34's or 6L6's in my experience.

Sylvania 6L6's were absolutely sublime for me.

[Jac Hawk]

Maybe if it wasn't for all the reviewers pushing the idea that expensive equals better sound quality then the market for the silly priced stuff would disappear. You don't have to go far to see reviewers advising that 'You really need to move up to a DAC in the £5K price range to hear an improvement' or some such nonsense. You even see punters on the forums repeating this.

Not that I think it matters any. I'd hardly describe it as a 'malaise of capitalism'. Rich people need to offload some of that surplus cash somewhere and it keeps people in jobs.

100% mate, the problem with a lot of HiFi is it lasts a very long time, i have a turntable for instance that is almost 50 years old, it's in great condition and performs a Stirling job and i'm sure there are many more out there with even older gear, my point is HiFi equipment in the main doesn't go wrong often and more importantly can be fixed, this means that the manufacturers can't wait for your gear to give up the ghost and have to rely on the clever marketing people to convince you that the new shinier more powerful model is what's missing in your life, if they didn't then like many have already done they would close up shop as less and less people need what they are selling, a sad but true fact.

[AJSki2fly]

If sticking with the S500 it might be worth considering trying some 6L6 valves. They do require a slightly higher voltage compared to the EL34 (I'm told for optimum performance) but in various EL34 amplifiers I have tried it was always an improvement.

I've also tried Gold Lion KT77's which gave a slightly more powerful SS signature grunt but didn't have the harmonics of EL34's or 6L6's in my experience.

Sylvania 6L6's were absolutely sublime for me.

I would not advise replacing the EL34's with 6L6's, from my understanding the plate voltages would need adjusting (bias I think) and from memory this is not user adjustable on an S500. I am not sure if fitting 6L6's in it without adjustment would cause issues with the amp. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise.

[Opti-cal]

I would not advise replacing the EL34's with 6L6's, from my understanding the plate voltages would need adjusting (bias I think) and from memory this is not user adjustable on an S500. I am not sure if fitting 6L6's in it without adjustment would cause issues with the amp. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise.

Fair enough, I did say it requires different voltages but I have done it with two or three EL34 amplifiers, which were not adjusted or auto bias, and never had an issue. Obviously best to seek more advice from those more knowledgeable than I, but it did always result in audible improvement.

[Opti-cal]

Fair enough, I did say it requires different voltages but I have done it with two or three EL34 amplifiers, which were not adjusted or auto bias, and never had an issue. Obviously best to seek more advice from those more knowledgeable than I, but it did always result in audible improvement.

Actually now I've given it more than two seconds thought, I was told by an experienced amp builder that as long as the bias was set correctly for an EL34 a 6L6 would always be fine to at least try and wouldn't cause any issue. . . . as a caveat though, he was Italian . . . and rather flamboyant . . .

However, I do still have a lovely amplifier built by him which has never missed a beat in 5 years and runs cool and sounds great, so I do trust his advice. However, as always better safe than sorry.

[anthonyTD]

6L6 Require higher negative bias voltage for the same current draw as EL34, hence it is posible to fit EL34 in place of 6L6, it would just mean that the EL34 would be running at less than optimum current, but not the other way around ie; do not fit 6L6 in place of EL34, unless you can up the negative bias voltage on the grid, or in the case of cathode bias amps, a change in cathode bias resistor would be needed.
Also' many EL34 amps use higher plate voltages than most 6L6 valves will tolerate reliably, so again just use caution, a good replacement for EL34, especialy in Primaluna amps is the KT120.
Hope this helps.
A...

A bit more before i forget [again] EL34 being a pentode, has a suppresor grid, and 6L6 being a Tetrode, has beam plates, now inside a 6L6 normaly the Beam plates are already connected to the Cathode [pin 8] and therefore pin 1 is not used, However; inside an EL34 the suppresor grid is often only connected to pin 1, therefore; if pin 1 and pin 8 are not connected on the valve base in the amp, the EL34 valve will have no Suppresor grid connection to the cathode, another important consideration to take into account when thinking of swapping one valve for the other!

[Marco]

Hi mate,


There is of course sound advice in your ramblings,;) Unfortunetly in many instances manufacturers are torn between producing the equipment they want and know they should be making, and pandering to those who can actualy afford the kit...


Indeed. It's just a pity that so many of those who can afford it are crass assholes with more money than sense, instead of genuinely discerning audiophiles, in the game for the right reasons. I'm not exactly poor, but would NEVER EVER buy an expensive piece of audio equipment that wasn't expensive for the RIGHT reasons!


...therefore, and more often than not, many manufacturers end up producing products that are a far cry from what they intended, something i have to say i too became very uncomfortable with a long time ago, hence i decided to try and stay true to myself, and just produce equipment that i Felt people would want to own for the right reason, i can tell you though staying true to yourself comes at a hefty cost, which is why many originaly enthusiastic and talented designers, and engineers end up taking as you quite rightly point out; the bling route :(

Yup, you're absolutely right, and it's a sad state of affairs. TBH, you shouldn't get into producing or selling hi-fi equipment in a quest just to make money, not only because it'll be a bloody hard slog, and therefore there are far easier ways of doing so, but because your *primary* motive/focus should be to make a positive contribution to the industry and hi-fi community.

Therefore, if you're an electronics designer, then you design products that you're PASSIONATE about and believe in, and which in your opinion are better (or different) than anything else of their type, not just creating 'cash cows' for a captive audience.

And if you're a dealer, then your primary focus should be on providing your customers with a carefully selected product range, which you believe offers excellent SPPV and equipment that they will go onto own and treasure for the RIGHT reasons, whilst offering them impeccable levels of advice and service, for the duration of the time you're trading.

However, in the real world, how often does that happen? Increasingly rarely, which is why the high-end audio industry is in the state it's in, with both manufacturers and dealers pandering to the lowest common denominator, in order to make a living, rather than striving for genuine excellence.

However, it takes a desire for BOTH to WANT to improve matters, in order for things to change and improve - and that simply won't happen when, as you say, the majority of folk who can afford to indulge in the purchase of high-end audio equipment are more interested in its 'show-off factor', to their peers on forums or in real life, than in its sonic ability.

Marco.

[Marco]

Got the Audio Innovations S500 back in now, sounding good so far.

Nice one, mate. Hope that can allow you to enjoy other music than just jazz!;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Maybe if it wasn't for all the reviewers pushing the idea that expensive equals better sound quality then the market for the silly priced stuff would disappear. You don't have to go far to see reviewers advising that 'You really need to move up to a DAC in the £5K price range to hear an improvement' or some such nonsense. You even see punters on the forums repeating this.


Indeed (on all counts), the latter because they're simply ignorant and don't know any better, or too superficially/materialistically minded, and so believe that newest or 'most expensive' is always best:doh:

But that's not all the fault of reviewers or dealers, but instead a notion that appears to be ingrained into the psyche of those who are either too lazy to think differently, or have more money than sense, and so are simply accustomed to taking the 'path of least resistance', towards obtaining a good sound (for them), whilst applying minimal effort.

However, folk like that are most unlikely ever to own the truly best systems, as assembled by people who genuinely know what they're doing, put in the required effort, and don't just throw their wallets at it!


Not that I think it matters any. I'd hardly describe it as a 'malaise of capitalism'. Rich people need to offload some of that surplus cash somewhere and it keeps people in jobs.

To an extent, yes.

It's just a pity that they didn't apply more thought or intelligence to how they disposed of their surplus cash, and actually bought things that were truly worth buying, rather than glorified trinkets, supposedly signalling to the world how 'important and successful' they are, when in reality all they're signalling is their gross insecurity and (not insignificant) stupidity!;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed,
And i have some sympathy for those who eventualy ended up going down the route of least resistance ie; Building Bling, once you witness first hand a certain type of mentality that will not allow one to appreciate something that is genuinely good, unless one has dumped a rediculous amount of money on it, you can eventualy get to the point where you just get fed up of banging your head against the wall!:doh:
Don't get me wrong, you can improve on things no end by knowing where money is best spent, and there are absolutely fantastic systems out there costing more than most folk pay for their houses,however; i would like to think that many of those lucky enough to own such systems didnt acheive their audio nirvana just by throwing money at it!
Hi mate,



Indeed. It's just a pity that so many of those who can afford it are crass assholes with more money than sense, instead of genuinely discerning audiophiles, in the game for the right reason. I'm not exactly poor, but would NEVER EVER buy any expensive piece of audio equipment that wasn't expensive for the RIGHT reasons!



Yup, you're absolutely right, and it's a sad state of affairs. TBH, you shouldn't get into producing or selling hi-fi equipment in a quest to make money, not only because it'll be a bloody hard slog, and therefore there are far easier ways of doing so, but because your *primary* motive/focus should be to make a positive contribution to the industry.

Therefore, if you're a electronics designer, then you design something that you're PASSIONATE about and believe in, which in your opinion is better (or different) than anything else of its type, not just creating a 'cash cow' for a captive audience, and if you're a dealer, then your primary focus should be on providing your customers with a product range that you believe offers excellent SPPV and something that they will go onto own and treasure for the RIGHT reasons, whilst offering them impeccable levels of advice and service, for the duration of the time you're trading.

However, in the real world, how often does that happen? Increasingly rarely, which is why the high-end audio industry is in the state it's in, with both manufacturers and dealers pandering to the lowest common denominator, in order to make a living, rather than striving for genuine excellence.

However, it takes a desire for BOTH to WANT to improve matters, in order for things to change and improve - and that simply won't happen when, as you say, the majority of folk who can afford to indulge in the purchase of high-end audio equipment are more interested in its 'show-off factor', to their peers on forums or in real life, than in its sonic ability.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Ok, I don't think your mains cables are an issue, and the Mission is noted for being quite a smooth sounding player. I'd defo check the valves in your amp, and note what make they are, and also what type?

You really want quality NOS valves in any decent valve amp, not currently produced stuff, as the difference can significant. Do me a favour and take some pics of what you've got, so I can see what we're dealing with:)

Marco.

Here we gp, 5881's I believe?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50473084228_bc03f5cd2c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jU8Ku9)IMG_20201013_200139638 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU8Ku9) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50471999517_9337fb61cf_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c3e)IMG_20201013_162853993 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c3e) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50471999487_0bca250c93_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c2H)IMG_20201013_162843738 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c2H) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

The Soro has 4 transformers, its heavy!

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike, Good that it is sounding good, what valves are in it?

I used:-

https://www.hotroxuk.com/12ax7-ecc83-genalex-gold-lion.html *3

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-6922-e88cc.html *2

https://www.hotroxuk.com/genalex-gold-lion-kt77.html (EL34 straight substitute)

Prior to the above it came with Electro Harmonix valves, they sounded good but the above gave more detail, definition and feeling of depth.

If you want more grunt then instead of EL34's or the KT77's you could try 6CA7 pentode, https://www.hotroxuk.com/electro-harmonix-6ca7eh.html

This might help as a guide on the EL34 output valves front, bear in mind the discussion is talking from a guitar amp perspective.

You need 2 matched pairs of the EL34's or equivalents.

These fellows.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50342381406_2f60ed0cb2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jGzS6d)IMG_20200914_184254928 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGzS6d) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50341704773_7531fa1f75_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/


Then the EL34s ' JJ tesla


[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoX8)IMG_20200914_184249374 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoX8) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50341704448_53a2e2be8a_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoRw)IMG_20200914_184302885 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoRw) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

Playing Robert Wyatt earlier, Sea song, was pretty good. Jazz still hurts a bit in the high notes on cd anyway, really need to sort my vinyl rig out, so I can get some sort of sweet spot for that.

[Pharos]

"Building Bling, once you witness first hand a certain type of mentality that will not allow one to appreciate something that is genuinely good"

IMO this is a problem in many areas of life, and is possibly a reflection on people's reactions to the pressures they are under, laziness, or a preoccupation with style over substance.
Making clear decisions requires the time, effort, and a devotion to any subject, and many would rather not become that involved, often to their own detriment of course.

I see so many people of my age whom it seems have bought into the marketing around cars, and have SUVs to pop down to the shops a mile or so every day. Lovely style, but appropriate?

[anthonyTD]

:)

"Building Bling, once you witness first hand a certain type of mentality that will not allow one to appreciate something that is genuinely good"

IMO this is a problem in many areas of life, and is possibly a reflection on people's reactions to the pressures they are under, laziness, or a preoccupation with style over substance.
Making clear decisions requires the time, effort, and a devotion to any subject, and many would rather not become that involved, often to their own detriment of course.

I see so many people of my age whom it seems have bought into the marketing around cars, and have SUVs to pop down to the shops a mile or so every day. Lovely style, but appropriate?

[AJSki2fly]

These fellows.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50342381406_2f60ed0cb2_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jGzS6d)IMG_20200914_184254928 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGzS6d) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50341704773_7531fa1f75_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/


Then the EL34s ' JJ tesla


[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoX8)IMG_20200914_184249374 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoX8) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50341704448_53a2e2be8a_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoRw)IMG_20200914_184302885 (https://flic.kr/p/2jGwoRw) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

Playing Robert Wyatt earlier, Sea song, was pretty good. Jazz still hurts a bit in the high notes on cd anyway, really need to sort my vinyl rig out, so I can get some sort of sweet spot for that.

Hi Mike,

So here are some views not just mine but mainly from the dealer I auditioned an S500 from in Farnham and where I purchased my Snell J's in 1986/7 and the owner, Peter Qvortrup, of Audio Innovations in Brighton where I purchased my first S500 from directly. I did so because money was tight at the time and buying from AI meant I saved £200, the dealer knew but was fine about it. So about the dealer it was two chaps who were primarily audio fans and were just interested in getting a good musical sound, all they sold were Audio Innovations, Luxman, Snell and I think may also sold certain Tannoy speakers and some expensive large horn speakers, they were very selective and knowledgeable, I cannot remember what TT's they offered but only 2 or 3.

There are several design issues with the S500 detailed on the net, mainly some quality issues on some resistors, switches and the volume pot, but I suspect you have had these sorted as your S500 has recently be fettled. So based on the my suspicion is the valves will be holding it back.

If I recall correctly the S500 came supplied with Tung-Sol valves at the time, but I could be wrong. The dealer said that they were fine but more could be achieved with Electro-Harmonix, or the main recommendation for a purer tone and better control across the frequency range and bass was Golden Lion valves, they offered these as an upgrade at the time. I asked Peter Qvortrup about this when I purchased my S500 and he confirmed that the Golden Lions were very good in the S500, he also said that in his opinion running it in triode mode gave best results, and the drop of 6-7watts was worth it, he did this at no cost whilst I waited. He said Mullards offered a different tonality but some people did not like the richer tone and musical presentation, and were quite expensive anyway. So I purchased the amp with its standard valves, saved up and about 6 months later plugged in a full set on Golden Lions, these made quite a difference IMO as already stated. When I stupidly sold the amp I kept the Golden Lions and years later when I purchase another S500 they wen in it straight away.

So let's talk about the JJ Tesla EL34s. These are Chinese valves and are an attempt to copy the original Tesla EL34(Russian) no longer made, and NOS are very expensive, if you look on ebay 2 x EL-34 TESLA MATCHED PAIR BROWN BASE TUBES! NOS! 1960s are anything form $120-200. See https://jacmusic.com/tesla/tesla-jj.html and if you read elsewhere the JJ Tesla's are generally considered to sound a bit harsh, can be unreliable and go out of spec quickly, so these may be hindering your S500. The same would apply to the E88CC's JJs. Real TESLA's are are different baby!

I cannot definitely tell from the picture what the 3xECC83s are, but possibly Tung-Sol Re-Issue 12AX7, if so then these are ok but can be bettered, if JJs then "While not as harmonically rich as others I tested, they do provide high gain without the usual noise and microphonic problems you would expect." and http://6streetbridge.blogspot.com/2011/09/review-of-jj-ecc83s-vacuum-tube.html as apposed to Golden Lion ECC83 "It is very smooth and pleasing to the ear. I attribute this to the broad midrange response. In audio or guitar equipment, grating highs and booming lows will give you listening fatigue or make you think your amp just sucks. The Gold Lion’s voicing is such that the midrange response seems full, while the highs and lows are nicely controlled. This tube would be great if you are retubing one of those classic old radio consoles." see https://blog.thetubestore.com/review-gold-lion-ecc83-b759/

A full set of Golden Lion for the S500 will set you back £330 from Hotrox

and Electro-Harmonix (3*Electro Harmonix 12AX7 Gold Pin = ECC83) £66, 2* EL34EH £80 and 2 * Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin - ECC88 £48 totalling £194

Personally I would go for the Golden Lion.

I hope this helps I have put the references to back up what I am saying, and so you know I am not talking out of my hat. I have also sent you a PM.:)

[anthonyTD]

I agree as far as the Gold lion re-issue re; being good sonicaly etc, As for your coments as to JJ being Chinese, jj electronic
A. Hlinku 3, 022 01 ČADCA, Slovak Republic
Phone: +421/41/4304120 Fax: +421/41/4304130

I also did a lot of re-work, and modifications on the S500, and can say that the output transformers leave a lot to be desired, hence the reason i went down the route of getting my own made.
All a long time ago now.

Hi Mike,

So here are some views not just mine but mainly from the dealer I auditioned an S500 from in Farnham and where I purchased my Snell J's in 1986/7 and the owner, Peter Qvortrup, of Audio Innovations in Brighton where I purchased my first S500 from directly. I did so because money was tight at the time and buying from AI meant I saved £200, the dealer knew but was fine about it. So about the dealer it was two chaps who were primarily audio fans and were just interested in getting a good musical sound, all they sold were Audio Innovations, Luxman, Snell and I think may also sold certain Tannoy speakers and some expensive large horn speakers, they were very selective and knowledgeable, I cannot remember what TT's they offered but only 2 or 3.

There are several design issues with the S500 detailed on the net, mainly some quality issues on some resistors, switches and the volume pot, but I suspect you have had these sorted as your S500 has recently be fettled. So based on the my suspicion is the valves will be holding it back.

If I recall correctly the S500 came supplied with Tung-Sol valves at the time, but I could be wrong. The dealer said that they were fine but more could be achieved with Electro-Harmonix, or the main recommendation for a purer tone and better control across the frequency range and bass was Golden Lion valves, they offered these as an upgrade at the time. I asked Peter Qvortrup about this when I purchased my S500 and he confirmed that the Golden Lions were very good in the S500, he also said that in his opinion running it in triode mode gave best results, and the drop of 6-7watts was worth it, he did this at no cost whilst I waited. He said Mullards offered a different tonality but some people did not like the richer tone and musical presentation, and were quite expensive anyway. So I purchased the amp with its standard valves, saved up and about 6 months later plugged in a full set on Golden Lions, these made quite a difference IMO as already stated. When I stupidly sold the amp I kept the Golden Lions and years later when I purchase another S500 they wen in it straight away.

So let's talk about the JJ Tesla EL34s. These are Chinese valves and are an attempt to copy the original Tesla EL34(Russian) no longer made, and NOS are very expensive, if you look on ebay 2 x EL-34 TESLA MATCHED PAIR BROWN BASE TUBES! NOS! 1960s are anything form $120-200. See https://jacmusic.com/tesla/tesla-jj.html and if you read elsewhere the JJ Tesla's are generally considered to sound a bit harsh, can be unreliable and go out of spec quickly, so these may be hindering your S500. The same would apply to the E88CC's JJs. Real TESLA's are are different baby!

I cannot definitely tell from the picture what the 3xECC83s are, but possibly Tung-Sol Re-Issue 12AX7, if so then these are ok but can be bettered, if JJs then "While not as harmonically rich as others I tested, they do provide high gain without the usual noise and microphonic problems you would expect." and http://6streetbridge.blogspot.com/2011/09/review-of-jj-ecc83s-vacuum-tube.html as apposed to Golden Lion ECC83 "It is very smooth and pleasing to the ear. I attribute this to the broad midrange response. In audio or guitar equipment, grating highs and booming lows will give you listening fatigue or make you think your amp just sucks. The Gold Lion’s voicing is such that the midrange response seems full, while the highs and lows are nicely controlled. This tube would be great if you are retubing one of those classic old radio consoles." see https://blog.thetubestore.com/review-gold-lion-ecc83-b759/

A full set of Golden Lion for the S500 will set you back £330 from Hotrox

and Electro-Harmonix (3*Electro Harmonix 12AX7 Gold Pin = ECC83) £66, 2* EL34EH £80 and 2 * Electro Harmonix 6922 Gold Pin - ECC88 £48 totalling £194

Personally I would go for the Golden Lion.

I hope this helps I have put the references to back up what I am saying, and so you know I am not talking out of my hat. I have also sent you a PM.:)

[Marco]

Here we gp, 5881's I believe?

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50473084228_bc03f5cd2c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jU8Ku9)IMG_20201013_200139638 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU8Ku9) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50471999517_9337fb61cf_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c3e)IMG_20201013_162853993 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c3e) by https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50471999487_0bca250c93_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c2H)IMG_20201013_162843738 (https://flic.kr/p/2jU3c2H) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

The Soro has 4 transformers, its heavy!.

What's the full list of valves, Mike. The output valves, which you showed, look like 6V6s (Anthony could you confirm?) so what are the smaller driver valves in front - 6SN7s? And also the even smaller valve right at the front - a 12AX7/ECC83?

Regardless, I think, should you wish to spend the money, you can defo do better in terms of the valves.

If it were my amp, I'd replace the lot with (properly tested and measured) matched pairs/quads of NOS varieties. It might cost you a couple of hundred quid, but it would likely transform the sound and remove the strident edge you've said it currently has with certain kinds of music:)

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

I agree as far as the Gold lion re-issue re; being good sonicaly etc, As for your coments as to JJ being Chinese, jj electronic
A. Hlinku 3, 022 01 ČADCA, Slovak Republic
Phone: +421/41/4304120 Fax: +421/41/4304130

I also did a lot of re-work, and modifications on the S500, and can say that the output transformers leave a lot to be desired, hence the reason i went down the route of getting my own made.
All a long time ago now.

Hi, yes silly mistake as my source was also talking about Chinese made EL34's which confused me.

"The Russians sold NOS EL84 for 200$ per 1000, and from China you could buy good EL34 and ECC83 for incredible low prices, if you knew the way. It was by that time that TESLA decided to sell off their line of Audio tubes to JJ. In the last years, the TESLA ECC83 was sold for only 2 € in OEM quantities, by company in Austria, who claimed to be their exclusive distributor. From this you can see that the factory price must have been very low. After selling off the audio line, TESLA went on making transmitter tubes, and other devices like vacuum capacitors, and military devices, which they considered more profitable.

So the TESLA tubes like ECC83, EL34, and KT88 were out of production now. The machines were moved out of the building and reinstalled at a factory of a man called Jan Jorgo, better known as JJ." from https://jacmusic.com/tesla/tesla-jj.html

[anthonyTD]

The output valves are 5881, which are a military grade 6L6GC, nothing realy wrong with those as far as being a good workhorse, the next one down look like JJ 6SN7, which can easily be upgraded by either NOS versions, Brimar's for instance may suit your pallet in this instance Mike, as for modern equivilents the Tungsol's are ok, as are some from Shuguang [chinese] first valve, if you can make do with a bit less gain, and there is already an ECC83/12AX7 fitted, then you could try a Military spec ECC81 CV4024 in there, or a 5751, hope this helps.
A...

[anthonyTD]

:)
Hi, yes silly mistake as my source was also talking about Chinese made EL34's which confused me.

"The Russians sold NOS EL84 for 200$ per 1000, and from China you could buy good EL34 and ECC83 for incredible low prices, if you knew the way. It was by that time that TESLA decided to sell off their line of Audio tubes to JJ. In the last years, the TESLA ECC83 was sold for only 2 € in OEM quantities, by company in Austria, who claimed to be their exclusive distributor. From this you can see that the factory price must have been very low. After selling off the audio line, TESLA went on making transmitter tubes, and other devices like vacuum capacitors, and military devices, which they considered more profitable.

So the TESLA tubes like ECC83, EL34, and KT88 were out of production now. The machines were moved out of the building and reinstalled at a factory of a man called Jan Jorgo, better known as JJ." from https://jacmusic.com/tesla/tesla-jj.html

[Marco]

The output valves are 5881, which are a military grade 6L6GC, nothing realy wrong with those as far as being a good workhorse, the next one down look like JJ 6SN7, which can easily be upgraded by either NOS versions, Brimar's for instance may suit your pallet in this instance Mike, as for modern equivilents the Tungsol's are ok, as are some from Shuguang [chinese] first valve, if you can make do with a bit less gain, and there is already an ECC83/12AX7 fitted, then you could try a Military spec ECC81 CV4024 in there, or a 5751, hope this helps.
A...

Ok, so essentially leave the output valves alone and upgrade the rest to NOS?:)

I reckon then that the main source of the 'strident' sound Mike's getting will be the currently fitted 6SN7s and 12AX7, as in my experience JJs can sound a little 'zingy'. And like you say, if he can afford to lose a little gain, then popping in a CV4024 or 5751 instead of the 12AX7 would defo help smooth things out.

If not, a nice NOS Mullard CV4004/ECC83 would do the biz!:cool:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Yes, i think by changing all the small signal valves for something better, that should make a considerable diffrence, the Sovtek 5881's don't tend to have anything really objectionable about them sonicaly, infact, i would say they can be a bit polite in some fitment, [i use lots of them in Guitar amps ie; Fender's etc] so i would defo start with the small valves first.
A...
Ok, so essentially leave the output valves alone and upgrade the rest to NOS?:)

I reckon then that the main source of the 'strident' sound Mike's getting will be the currently fitted 6SN7s and 12AX7, as in my experience JJs can sound a little 'zingy'. And like you say, if he can afford to lose a little gain, then popping in a CV4024 or 5751 instead of the 12AX7 would defo help smooth things out.

If not, a nice NOS Mullard CV4004/ECC83 would do the biz!:cool:

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Just one example from a recent customer who was a bit sceptical about the diffrence Valve's make:


Hi Anthony,

Just to give you a bit of feedback on the Mullard M8137 tubes I picked up from you today .

First they sound nothing like the CV4004 I have been using in the Croft for the last few days which is a good thing gone is the slight top end glare that I told you the above valve exhibited.

I’m the cat that’s got the cream I cannot believe the sound these valves produce there is no aspect of the sound that I could possibly say I dislike in fact the complete opposite the bass was the first thing that hit me so solid and pronounced, the top end is also everything I could want nothing glaring just so right on every type of music I have played . I don’t normally take much store in reviews but on this occasion I have to agree it stated the best Ecc83 by a mile and from what I am hearing I cannot dispute this and although the price is high worth every penny .

[Marco]

Cool... I might have a 5751 in my spares box Mike could have for nowt, so will have a look later - at least that would be one less thing for him to buy:)

And yeah, M8137s are lovely! Not cheap, however. They're a 12XA7/ECC83 equivalent though, aren't they, or am I thinking of something else?

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Correct!

And yeah, M8137s are lovely! Not cheap, however. They're a 12XA7 equivalent though, aren't they, or am I thinking of something else?

Marco.

[Marco]

Ok, so it depends then if Mike can afford to lose some gain or not then, in terms of fitting a 5751, and also whether he can afford the ticket price of an M8137.. What are you talking about, £100?

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

For those who have stock of genuine new Box anode type, around £150-00, £170-00 now!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=M8137&_sacat=0
Ok, so it depends then if Mike can afford to lose some gain or not then, in terms of fitting a 5751, and also whether he can afford the ticket price of an M8137.. What are you talking about, £100?

Marco.

[Marco]

:eek::eek:

Just goes to prove though how much better the best NOS types are compared with the pish (in comparison) that they make today!

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed,
I think from my point of view; Mike should take a bit of time now to mull over all the contributions in this thread, and hopefuly he can find enough useful info that may help him decide where he wants to go with it.
:eek::eek:

Just goes to prove though how much better the best NOS types are compared with the pish (in comparison) that they make today!

Marco.

[StingRay]

The problem is both the valve amp and the speakers are not very good. That's why only plinky-plonk sounds any good through them. Plinky plonk will sound good on an Amstrad.

Depends what Jazz you are playing, not all Jazz is plinky-plonk, what I might call lounge jazz.

[Mikeandvan]

Shit, these light bulbs are damn expensive! How can you tell they're not all used up? I got a box of tubes with the S500 I bought, with their original boxes, shall I stick 'em on ebay and call them NOS!

[Marco]

Lol@lightbulbs...:eyebrows:

Seriously though, that smallest lightbulb at the front I think is potentially the biggest cause of the 'strident' effect you're hearing, so would strongly recommend that you upgrade it, as outlined.

I'll have a shufty and see if I can find that 5751 I had... Would you be able to do without a little gain? Just means that you'd have to turn the volume up a bit more that's all. Most amps these days, receiving a digital signal, have too much gain.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Gosh, got the Soro back in now, playing the same Robert Wyatt album I was playing last night, the S500 seems to handle it better, vinyl set up far from perfect though! Using a Denon dl110 with 1500 +hrs on it and a bent cantilever!

[Floyddroid]

My Prima Luna's play plinky plonk and rock. They certainly boogie so not all valve amps are just for jazz. Audio Innovations from memory have always been a little on the lean side. There seems to be a natural assumption that they are a good match for the AN speakers? However, i once took my Beard P100 to a colleague's house and hooked it up to his type K's and he was nearly in tears when he heard just how much better they sounded on my battered and bruised old Beard compared to hos AI mono's.

[AJSki2fly]

My Prima Luna's play plinky plonk and rock. They certainly boogie so not all valve amps are just for jazz. Audio Innovations from memory have always been a little on the lean side. There seems to be a natural assumption that they are a good match for the AN speakers? However, i once took my Beard P100 to a colleague's house and hooked it up to his type K's and he was nearly in tears when he heard just how much better they sounded on my battered and bruised old Beard compared to hos AI mono's.

Yes but Mike’s looks as if he has valve issues, and possibly your friends. Both S500s I had with the right valves in worked with good bass from Snell Js and Kef model 3.2s


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Happy to experiment with different valves, but I doubt whether they will make enough of a change to tame the strident top end coming out of the Js, with jazz wind instruments anyway, the bass is quite lovely as it is. I do like the J's, but I may search for something else in time. The sound of the S500 is also, to me anyway, very close to the Soro.

[walpurgis]

I can't see anything in your choice of equipment that suggests a mismatch that would result in the upper range stridency you experience. I'm wondering if you find that particular tweeter unsuited to your own listening. I found the same thing with Dynaudio speakers that I owned and listened to. Others saying they sounded great, but me finding them brash at the top. Strangely, the same has been said of some Tannoys, but I've always liked their treble quality (apart from the IIILZ model).

[Marco]

Happy to experiment with different valves, but I doubt whether they will make enough of a change to tame the strident top end coming out of the Js, with jazz wind instruments anyway, the bass is quite lovely as it is. I do like the J's, but I may search for something else in time. The sound of the S500 is also, to me anyway, very close to the Soro.

Has your Shure cartridge arrived yet, Mike?:)

Marco.

[StingRay]

I can't see anything in your choice of equipment that suggests a mismatch that would result in the upper range stridency you experience. I'm wondering if you find that particular tweeter unsuited to your own listening. I found the same thing with Dynaudio speakers that I owned and listened to. Others saying they sounded great, but me finding them brash at the top. Strangely, the same has been said of some Tannoys, but I've always liked their treble quality (apart from the IIILZ model).

I had a demo with some Dyns, could not get on with them at all with Jazz, the cymbals just got irritating after a few minutes.

[Mikeandvan]

Has your Shure cartridge arrived yet, Mike?:)

Marco.
It's in sorting office, can't face that on a saturday!

[Marco]

Ok matey, no worries. Let me know when it's landed safely:)

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

I can't see anything in your choice of equipment that suggests a mismatch that would result in the upper range stridency you experience. I'm wondering if you find that particular tweeter unsuited to your own listening. I found the same thing with Dynaudio speakers that I owned and listened to. Others saying they sounded great, but me finding them brash at the top. Strangely, the same has been said of some Tannoys, but I've always liked their treble quality (apart from the IIILZ model).

I'm quite sensitive to sound in general, I cannot stand it when I'm in say a cafe and somebody starts playing their tinny phone, a video or music, the dissonance really rattles me. Its either that or my listening room is a bit pants, not much to do about that. Somebody suggested the new Tannoy Eaton legacy, as they're on offer for £3K, slightly used, definitely way more than I'm used to spending.......

[Nigel]

Forgive me if I've missed it but what is wrong with the room in which you listen?

I use a Series 500 in my humble system and it plays great with rock and jazz. Bags of fun.

[Mikeandvan]

Forgive me if I've missed it but what is wrong with the room in which you listen?

I use a Series 500 in my humble system and it plays great with rock and jazz. Bags of fun.

It adjoins with the kitchen, too many hard flat surfaces?

[AJSki2fly]

It adjoins with the kitchen, too many hard flat surfaces?

Mike, is it open plan to the kitchen or is there a door? If open plan then have you considered putting a roller type blind or something similar, possibly heavier that you can let down to obstruct the opening, you could have a separate one if there is a doorway opening. Hopefully this would help greatly acoustically.

[Haselsh1]

Audio Innovations ? Wasn't that David Chessel, the man behind Audion ?

Loved Audion's amplifiers.

[AJSki2fly]

Audio Innovations ? Wasn't that David Chessel, the man behind Audion ?

Loved Audion's amplifiers.

"Audio Innovations was founded by Peter Qvortrup and Erik Andersson in 1984" I met Peter in 1987 when I purchased mine, very nice chap and helpful.

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-innovations-first-audio/

[Nigel]

I would imagine too many hard, reflective surfaces would result in a bright, fatiguing sound.

I would try and move the loudspeakers to see if any improvement is possible. Place some big soft cushions inside the room. Heavy curtains etc. Just try to get rid of some of the hard reflective surfaces. Assuming this is possible of course.

Are you able to have a listening position where there is nothing between the speakers and nothing between you and the speakers?

How far apart are the loudspeakers and how far away are you siting from them?

[Haselsh1]

"Audio Innovations was founded by Peter Qvortrup and Erik Andersson in 1984" I met Peter in 1987 when I purchased mine, very nice chap and helpful.

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-innovations-first-audio/

http://tubeamps.co.uk/history

I knew there was a connection somewhere.

[Marco]

It's in sorting office, can't face that on a saturday!

Have you got it now, Mike?:)

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Its really kitchen and lounge in one big room, I'll post a pic tomorrow. New valves haven't gotten rid of the stridency in upper treble, may'be I should try other speakers.

[Lawrence001]

Saw all this discussion about trying different valves, it sounds to me like the issue goes beyond that. Whether it's the room or just the sound you like is hard to say without being there and having a play.

If you could get someone round with a selection of cables it may be a good start as I've tuned many systems that way. What are you using? Sorry if it's already been discussed above.

Little trick if you use the grilles on, I have taped a single sheet of toilet paper over the tweeters (as in separate a single layer of paper off a single sheet) and it can take the edge off. Not a permanent solution but it can show you what a bit of treble attenuation can achieve. It can turn out to be the high mids rather than the treble that really grate though on horns/guitars etc.

If you're playing them with the grilles off just putting them back on can help. Some speakers are voiced with the grilles on.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Saw all this discussion about trying different valves, it sounds to me like the issue goes beyond that. Whether it's the room or just the sound you like is hard to say without being there and having a play.

If you could get someone round with a selection of cables it may be a good start as I've tuned many systems that way. What are you using? Sorry if it's already been discussed above.

Little trick if you use the grilles on, I have taped a single sheet of toilet paper over the tweeters (as in separate a single layer of paper off a single sheet) and it can take the edge off. Not a permanent solution but it can show you what a bit of treble attenuation can achieve. It can turn out to be the high mids rather than the treble that really grate though on horns/guitars etc.

If you're playing them with the grilles off just putting them back on can help. Some speakers are voiced with the grilles on.

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Yeh I'm thinking speakers now, next step get them checked I reckon, I'm close to Audio note, but their communication puts me off, I've a feeling I'll be left with a large bill and being pushed towards buying stupidly priced cables. Cables are Van damme oc-ofc, known for being quite warm I think. I'll try the tissue thing thanks! Should add that I also tried the Audio note Ks before the Js and they were even worse with the treble.

[AJSki2fly]

Yeh I'm thinking speakers now, next step get them checked I reckon, I'm close to Audio note, but their communication puts me off, I've a feeling I'll be left with a large bill and being pushed towards buying stupidly priced cables. Cables are Van damme oc-ofc, known for being quite warm I think. I'll try the tissue thing thanks! Should add that I also tried the Audio note Ks before the Js and they were even worse with the treble.

Hi Mike, don’t know if you have read this review, it is long but there is some VERY interesting info on the AN Js in comparison the the original Snell Js, they are NOT the same beast! Peter Qvortrup, of AN brought the rights to Snell designs, and early one changed the rear port design and tune them for corner positioning in the room, the article explains why. As most will concur this goes against what is considered right for loudspeaker design.

So if they are critical on room placement to get them to sound right then this may be the issue you are facing in your room. Have a read and see how it affects your current placement.

Sorry to have to say this but the other valves will and can have direct impact on the sound, in fact possibly more so as the are effectively the first stage amplification, so any issues in these(top end harshness) will be amplified even further by the EL34s. I would replace them with Golden Lions, you will then have a known good base to experience the with speakers of any type.

By the way do you get the same top end stridency you describe (I take this to mean harsh top end, crashy/splashy cymbals for instance?) with the Soro. If it is there with both amps then the issue is with the AN Js.

It a shame we don’t live closer, then you could pop over and we could try them with my amp and yours in my lounge, we could probably get to the bottom of it then.

If you fancy a trip to Seaton to find out it’s only about, 150 miles, you are more than welcome[emoji2]

[tapid]

Have you thought about room treatment Mike ?. Just recently bought absorber/ diffuser panel myself ( gik ) gonna probably get some more.
Very helpful effort Adrian btw

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike, don’t know if you have read this review, it is long but there is some VERY interesting info on the AN Js in comparison the the original Snell Js, they are NOT the same beast! Peter Qvortrup, of AN brought the rights to Snell designs, and early one changed the rear port design and tune them for corner positioning in the room, the article explains why. As most will concur this goes against what is considered right for loudspeaker design.

So if they are critical on room placement to get them to sound right then this may be the issue you are facing in your room. Have a read and see how it affects your current placement.

Sorry to have to say this but the other valves will and can have direct impact on the sound, in fact possibly more so as the are effectively the first stage amplification, so any issues in these(top end harshness) will be amplified even further by the EL34s. I would replace them with Golden Lions, you will then have a known good base to experience the with speakers of any type.

By the way do you get the same top end stridency you describe (I take this to mean harsh top end, crashy/splashy cymbals for instance?) with the Soro. If it is there with both amps then the issue is with the AN Js.

It a shame we don’t live closer, then you could pop over and we could try them with my amp and yours in my lounge, we could probably get to the bottom of it then.

If you fancy a trip to Seaton to find out it’s only about, 150 miles, you are more than welcome[emoji2]

Thanks Adrian, the issue with both the Soro and S500, already changed the valves in the S500 to Gold lions, a bit of a difference, a general warmer sound. I am about to change my room around so I have more flexibility with positioning the Js, might do it today if it keeps on raining like this! I've never really thought about cymbals too much, its always been the wind instruments in jazz which have been a real pain for me, on the high notes of course.

[Mikeandvan]

Have you thought about room treatment Mike ?. Just recently bought absorber/ diffuser panel myself ( gik ) gonna probably get some more.
Very helpful effort Adrian btw

I'm sceptical that they'd make much of a difference! Have yours? My sofa is right up against the wall, can't really have it any other way.

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks Adrian, the issue with both the Soro and S500, already changed the valves in the S500 to Gold lions, a bit of a difference, a general warmer sound. I am about to change my room around so I have more flexibility with positioning the Js, might do it today if it keeps on raining like this! I've never really thought about cymbals too much, its always been the wind instruments in jazz which have been a real pain for me, on the high notes of course.

Aha, I think we may be getting closer to the issue you are experiencing.

If you would advise me of a pieces of music that you experience this, specific Artists and Tracks and I will have a listen, don't tell me what or where it is you hear any issues, it would be best if it is on CD or digital and then I can source it, but you never know I may have a copy on LP anyway. I will listen very carefully on my system and try and be as analytical and critical as possible, and see if I find any issues, I know it is a bit subjective but at least you would have a view, if I hear distortion or harshness of any sorts I will honestly report it to you. My Wilson Benesch speaker are very revealing of dodgy recordings or mixes, I have a few that I find annoying.

Just for info I looked up the frequency ranges of wind instruments:- see https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/9781119164746.app2

The AN J's employ a 8" driver that does the mid-range and bass, I believe it is generally considered quite a hard ask for such a driver to cope with both low-mid and upper mid at the same time. I believe the tweeters will be dealing with much higher frequencies. Most reviews actually say that the mid-range from AN J's is pretty good, so it would be interesting to know exactly what and when you experience the harshness you describe. Certain instruments are notoriously difficult to reproduce accurately so maybe that has something to do with it.

Thinking about it, it could be that you could have golden ears, in other words you detect pitch and its accuracy very naturally so anything reproduced slightly off becomes annoying or dissonant to you, it is not unknown. Some people and musicians have what is called natural pitch perception, that is they instinctively know when something is in tune or slightly out of tune, others have to develop this ability with time singing, playing instruments and listening to others.

Cheers

Adrian

Also someone else posted this, I watched this afternoon, there was a couple of things I was not fully aware of, and you may find it really helpful
https://youtu.be/VHOYXjVJKKY