Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else.

[Lawrence001]

I have struggled with some Tannoys in the past (the cheaper plastic ones like in the 6 series rather than the better paper ones) in the same frequency range as you, and lots of people seem to like them. I think it's just a matter of sensitivity of our hearing in certain ranges or preferences (I like a slight V shaped response if anything).

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[Mikeandvan]

Forgive me if I've missed it but what is wrong with the room in which you listen?

I use a Series 500 in my humble system and it plays great with rock and jazz. Bags of fun.

Well, I've had issues with stridency using a few different systems, so I figured room was making things difficult.

[Mikeandvan]

Aha, I think we may be getting closer to the issue you are experiencing.

If you would advise me of a pieces of music that you experience this, specific Artists and Tracks and I will have a listen, don't tell me what or where it is you hear any issues, it would be best if it is on CD or digital and then I can source it, but you never know I may have a copy on LP anyway. I will listen very carefully on my system and try and be as analytical and critical as possible, and see if I find any issues, I know it is a bit subjective but at least you would have a view, if I hear distortion or harshness of any sorts I will honestly report it to you. My Wilson Benesch speaker are very revealing of dodgy recordings or mixes, I have a few that I find annoying.

Just for info I looked up the frequency ranges of wind instruments:- see https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/9781119164746.app2

The AN J's employ a 8" driver that does the mid-range and bass, I believe it is generally considered quite a hard ask for such a driver to cope with both low-mid and upper mid at the same time. I believe the tweeters will be dealing with much higher frequencies. Most reviews actually say that the mid-range from AN J's is pretty good, so it would be interesting to know exactly what and when you experience the harshness you describe. Certain instruments are notoriously difficult to reproduce accurately so maybe that has something to do with it.

Thinking about it, it could be that you could have golden ears, in other words you detect pitch and its accuracy very naturally so anything reproduced slightly off becomes annoying or dissonant to you, it is not unknown. Some people and musicians have what is called natural pitch perception, that is they instinctively know when something is in tune or slightly out of tune, others have to develop this ability with time singing, playing instruments and listening to others.

Cheers

Adrian]

I find it hard to imagine anyone else not being irritated by the aspects of my hifi which irritate me, my girlfriend certainly complains about it! Once my TT is set up I'll see whether its any better with vinyl. I changed my room around today, what a relief, hifi now much easier to access, speakers tidy in the corners, fair bit of space around them. I may get rid of those drawers to create more space around the hifi as I've yet to fit the TT shelf, and don't want it too close to the speaker. Much neater than before though and sounding a bit better, a cleaner sound, with slightly better resolution.

Tracks which cause issues? John colranes favourite things can grate at times, at the highest notes, Parts of Cape verdean blues (H Silver) sound a bit strident, not the first track though. Our man in Paris - That fantastic lp by Dexter Gordon - a few tracks off that. Some 70s jazz which is more dissonant anyway like Cannonball Adderly - Pyramid, and especially Eddie hendricks - Sunburst, Donald Byrd - street lady, these might be difficult one's to get sounding right on any system on CD anyway, I don't know.


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[Macca]

A lot of hard surfaces but I don't think that's causing your issue.

Not a purist approach but I reckon some EQ would solve your problem. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Klark-Teknik-DN27-Graphic-Equaliser/174174601679?hash=item288d9d81cf:g:yT4AAOSwv~dd1GD n

Just dial back the mids by 1 or 2 db,

[AJSki2fly]

Mike, a difficult room!

Try moving the speakers out so that you get the front as near to 85cm from the wall behind them.

I realise you are very limited having them further from the side walls, with them close to the side walls the upper mid frequencies and above will be re-enforce and cause weird distortions at higher volumes ( stridency ). So a possible solution to try out, get two reasonably thick towels and hang them immediately on the walls next to each speaker, this will dampen the reflection affect, I would be surprised if this does not have a dramatic impact, hopefully for the better.

If it works you can get some wall hangings, tapestry, Turkish carpet etc.

If you find after doing the above you find the bass reduced then move the speakers back towards the wall behind only 1-2cm at a time, and re-listen, I would suggest something like Miles Davis - kind of blue, just bass, drums, piano and trumpet so easier to pick out changes to sound. Ensure that you keep the towels at the side of the speakers if you move them back.

I think the above should help. All the best, Adrian[emoji6]

[Pharos]

My immediate reaction to your setup from your pictures, is that your speakers are too close to the side walls. Even with the central layout you have you could move them in a little, and more particularly toe them in to avoid reflections from the side walls.

If your bass is weak and thus you are placing them in the corners, this will increase bass - 3dB for every surface but this will be a trade-off with side wall reflections of mid and top.

I appreciate, being in a similar position myself, that having speakers against the back wall is really necessary in order not to disrupt one's living, and personally I do not find it problematical, and never have, and this will give some bass boost.

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks all, the room is slightly wider than it appears in the photo, anyway I think I am going to have to get rid of that chest of drawers, shame I didn't want just a bare hifi look to my room, but may'be get a smaller drawers. I'll then have more room to move speakers away from the wall. As it is they are toed in slightly, may'be hard to see from pic. I have a little room to play about with anyway as it is.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50516052231_66419a7793_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jXVYnM)

Just moved speakers so that the front are 65cm away from back wall and have moved them away slightly from side walls, will see how it sounds now.


IMG_20201022_112314590 (https://flic.kr/p/2jXVYnM) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/

[Macca]

Audionote UK speakers are supposed to be in the corners - all the Audionote dems I have been to have them in the corners. It's a terrible idea but that's how they are supposed to be used.

In any case it won't matter what where you put them it won't cure strident mid-range, neither will room treatment. It's a distortion issue, whether from amp, source or speakers. Probably not the speakers.

I'd sack the lot off personally and start again but failing that I'd start with the source, get rid of the Mission CD and get something smoother - a Yamaha might do it, they're pretty mellow house sound.

[walpurgis]

In any case it won't matter what where you put them it won't cure strident mid-range, neither will room treatment

I think so too. You could take them out in the garden and the mid/top will still sound much the same.

[walpurgis]

I'm wondering if it's just the natural stridency of some instruments that is the issue. Not much that can be done about that as it's on the recording.

[Mikeandvan]

Audionote UK speakers are supposed to be in the corners - all the Audionote dems I have been to have them in the corners. It's a terrible idea but that's how they are supposed to be used.

In any case it won't matter what where you put them it won't cure strident mid-range, neither will room treatment. It's a distortion issue, whether from amp, source or speakers. Probably not the speakers.

I'd sack the lot off personally and start again but failing that I'd start with the source, get rid of the Mission CD and get something smoother - a Yamaha might do it, they're pretty mellow house sound.

Yes true, they are supposed to be ok in corners, I just thought I'd play around with positioning a bit, its much easier now that I've swapped the room around, they used to be on the other wall, but now I have a bit more space around them, it sounds better overall before I'd even started repositioning, they may well end up going back in the corners. The mission cd player is actually quite smooth, it has a decent chip - the classic one - tda whatever..... I quite like it, could may;be do with a service. If its a distortion issue then its probably not the amp, as it sounds the same with the Soro amp, I am looking into getting the speakers checked, I'll also plug in my other speakers some time soon to compare.

[Mikeandvan]

I'm wondering if it's just the natural stridency of some instruments that is the issue. Not much that can be done about that as it's on the recording.

Yes, I'm trying to track down decent vinyl pressings of some of my fave jazz cds to see whether that cures it, they are not cheap or that easy to find though.

[Macca]

I'm wondering if it's just the natural stridency of some instruments that is the issue. Not much that can be done about that as it's on the recording.

Could be but IME it is very rarely the recording to blame. I don't have the albums Mike mentions but do have Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme' and there's no stridency on that.

[AJSki2fly]

Audionote UK speakers are supposed to be in the corners - all the Audionote dems I have been to have them in the corners. It's a terrible idea but that's how they are supposed to be used.

In any case it won't matter what where you put them it won't cure strident mid-range, neither will room treatment. It's a distortion issue, whether from amp, source or speakers. Probably not the speakers.

I'd sack the lot off personally and start again but failing that I'd start with the source, get rid of the Mission CD and get something smoother - a Yamaha might do it, they're pretty mellow house sound.

I am not sure that is quite correct with the AN J's, I think it took 2-3 years of Peter Qvortrup experimenting with a different size and length baffle pipe before he was happy with them for corner positioning. So I expect the earlier AN J's were still based on Snell J design, in which case corner positioning probably would not be a great idea. So it could depend upon when Mike's AN J's were made. Also I don't recall the Mission PCM 7000 CDP being reported as harsh sounding at he time, maybe because of its age some electronics are getting past their best and causing issues.

[jahsavage]

30 years back I had the AN S500 with some large DIY (Davis) speakers. I used to drive it via an early Tom Evans phono stage.

I do remember rock being fantastic especially Live In Japan, I suggest you checkout ebay for a phono stage.

[Macca]

I am not sure that is quite correct with the AN J's, I think it took 2-3 years of Peter Qvortrup experimenting with a different size and length baffle pipe before he was happy with them for corner positioning. So I expect the earlier AN J's were still based on Snell J design, in which case corner positioning probably would not be a great idea. So it could depend upon when Mike's AN J's were made. Also I don't recall the Mission PCM 7000 CDP being reported as harsh sounding at he time, maybe because of its age some electronics are getting past their best and causing issues.

You may well be right about the J but corner placement isn't going to cause the stridency.

I mention the Mission cd player because there's not many other possible causes left and I'm clutching at straws :) - and last time I heard one (1990 I think) it was in an all-Mission system that was very strident. That could have been the Cyrus 1 amp though.

[AJSki2fly]

You may well be right about the J but corner placement isn't going to cause the stridency.

I mention the Mission cd player because there's not many other possible causes left and I'm clutching at straws :) - and last time I heard one (1990 I think) it was in an all-Mission system that was very strident. That could have been the Cyrus 1 amp though.

I think it’s CDP or speakers, swapping out the CDP for another newer one or even a dvd/blue ray player may answer that one.

Speakers close to side walls will re-enforce higher frequencies and can cause distortion so imo it is worth trying to optimise speaker position, and seating position, and minimising side wall near speaker reflections. If it’s not the CDP and playing around with speakers in Tom does not do it then, it has to be the speakers. So would be time to try something else[emoji846]


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[Macca]

I think it’s CDP or speakers, swapping out the CDP for another newer one or even a dvd/blue ray player may answer that one.

Speakers close to side walls will re-enforce higher frequencies and can cause distortion so imo it is worth trying to optimise speaker position, and seating position, and minimising side wall near speaker reflections. If it’s not the CDP and playing around with speakers in Tom does not do it then, it has to be the speakers. So would be time to try something else[emoji846]


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It will reinforce low frequencies, all it will do with higher frequencies is bounce them about, that's a form of distortion I suppose, but it won't cause the break-up on horns like Mike describes.

It could be clipping distortion, even though the amps are valve jobs. Or could be the CD player clipping the input of the amplifiers. Neither seems that likely though.

[Lawrence001]

It doesn't have to be distortion, it could just be a higher response in those regions or just a sensitivity/dislike.

At some point I'd ditch the amp or speakers. Personally as I like a good valve amp I'd try some other sensitive speakers first. No horns though!

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[Mikeandvan]

I am not sure that is quite correct with the AN J's, I think it took 2-3 years of Peter Qvortrup experimenting with a different size and length baffle pipe before he was happy with them for corner positioning. So I expect the earlier AN J's were still based on Snell J design, in which case corner positioning probably would not be a great idea. So it could depend upon when Mike's AN J's were made. Also I don't recall the Mission PCM 7000 CDP being reported as harsh sounding at he time, maybe because of its age some electronics are getting past their best and causing issues.

Model is J type B, serial number 223/224, so only about 200 in, quite early I'd guess, they are in lovely condition though.

[anthonyTD]

Mike,
This may sound a bit odd, but have you had your hearing tested properly recently ? I ask this because a reduction in high frequency can in some cases cause a similar iritation with certain frequencies, i have had a few elderly customers over the years, and one in paticular could not listen to digital at all for a very similar reason to what your experiencing, hence he only listend to vinyl, which for him was much more tolerable.
Hope this helps.
A...

Model is J type B, serial number 223/224, so only about 200 in, quite early I'd guess, they are in lovely condition though.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike,
This may sound a bit odd, but have you had your hearing tested properly recently ? I ask this because a reduction in high frequency can in some cases cause a similar iritation with certain frequencies, i have had a few elderly customers over the years, and one in paticular could not listen to digital at all for a very similar reason to what your experiencing, hence he only listend to vinyl, which for him was much more tolerable.
Hope this helps.
A...

Sorry? :lol:

[Pharos]

Actually that is a very good point from antonyD,

I was speaking to an audiologist friend yesterday about failing hearing, and he stated that as HF goes so appear problems lower down. I have lost a lot in the right ear above 5 to 6k, and now my right hand channel sounds screechy, but with the good ear it does not.

[AJSki2fly]

Actually that is a very good point from antonyD,

I was speaking to an audiologist friend yesterday about failing hearing, and he stated that as HF goes so appear problems lower down. I have lost a lot in the right ear above 5 to 6k, and now my right hand channel sounds screechy, but with the good ear it does not.

That’s because around the frequency range you have lost, you still have some frequencies you hear, so tonally you only hear bits of it and thus it can be harsh.


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[anthonyTD]

Indeed,
And i wasnt refering to Mike being elderly, :eek: people suffer hearing loss at all ages, depending on the enviroment, and type of work they have done, etc, etc.
Actually that is a very good point from antonyD,

I was speaking to an audiologist friend yesterday about failing hearing, and he stated that as HF goes so appear problems lower down. I have lost a lot in the right ear above 5 to 6k, and now my right hand channel sounds screechy, but with the good ear it does not.

[Macca]

can be genetically induced too.

Could be that some sort of hearing loss or damage has left Mike hyper sensitive to certain frequencies.

I still think it is more likely to be the equipment, stridency on some recordings is a trademark of fake hi-fi.

[anthonyTD]

Again i agree!
Hearing infections, sinus issues, etc, etc.
can be genetically induced too.

Could be that some sort of hearing loss or damage has left Mike hyper sensitive to certain frequencies.

[AJSki2fly]

Again i agree!
Hearing infections, sinus issues, etc, etc.

I am very familiar with hearing impairment my mother suffered with Meniere's disease from when I was about 3, she gradually lost her hearing, and also suffered with tinitus as a result. She ended up with a 25% hearing in left ear and 30% in the right, and had to where hearing aids, because we are talking over 50 years ago the hearing aids were quite basic and just raised all frequencies, she hated being in restaurants as a result because all she could hear was cutlery and loud high pitched noises, she had lost most of her middle range frequencies. Mens voices that were lower were not too bad for her, but a normal woman voice was lost on her. Music became very irritating as a large amount was unheard, it was not until digital hearing aids came along and were tuned to her hearing did she cope better, but sadly towards the end of her life, but it was never great.

[anthonyTD]

:)
I am very familiar with hearing impairment my mother suffered with Meniere's disease from when I was about 3, she gradually lost her hearing, and also suffered with tinitus as a result. She ended up with a 25% hearing in left ear and 30% in the right, and had to where hearing aids, because we are talking over 50 years ago the hearing aids were quite basic and just raised all frequencies, she hated being in restaurants as a result because all she could hear was cutlery and loud high pitched noises, she had lost most of her middle range frequencies. Mens voices that were lower were not too bad for her, but a normal woman voice was lost on her. Music became very irritating as a large amount was unheard, it was not until digital hearing aids came along and were tuned to her hearing did she cope better, but sadly towards the end of her life, but it was never great.

[Mikeandvan]

Well, my girlfriend finds the high notes in jazz even more annoying than I do, so I think my hearings ok. Put my Chario syntars back in today, thought they were better initially but after a few hours playing jazz realised the high notes were still sharp, so I reckon no system will get rid of this problem in this listening room, so its either move flat or try room acoustic treatment. I've already moved the sofa away from the back wall by 2 ft which has helped with slight bass boom. Other than that the Js sound fine in corners, as they are meant to, in fact very little difference with positioning. I've had a few systems in this flat, Naim, Quad, Rega, the best one is the current one - with jazz anyway, I can;t comment on rock etc as my vinyl system hasn;t been set up for a while.

[KnuckleDragger]

Going back to the original post. I believe the issue is the Audio Innovations s500. It's a budget integrated amp. I agree with Macca when he said "I still think it is more likely to be the equipment"
For Jazz I can understand it sounds good. But for modern music or classical which has a lot of bass response, then this amp will struggle at only 25W per channel. At anything above low to moderate listening levels this amp will begin to distort. It will sound like it is struggling.

[Barry]

The Audio Innovations S500 amplifier driving horn-loaded speakers, such as the Impulse H2 will produce deep and well-controlled bass, be it classical, jazz or rock music.

[KnuckleDragger]

The Audio Innovations S500 amplifier driving horn-loaded speakers, such as the Impulse H2 will produce deep and well-controlled bass, be it classical, jazz or rock music.


However the issue still persists according to the OP. I have read people saying it's ears, etc.
I believe the issue is still the S500. Be it under powered or valve degradation/ Miss match. etc.
Or simply not up to the expectations of the user.

[Barry]

25W is plenty - just listen to a Radford STA25, or Lowther LL26. Even 15W is sufficient for many listeners, witness the Radford STA15 or Quad II. And the 10W/channel Leak Stereo 20 will happily drive speakers of reasonable efficiency (and even those of low efficiency such as the Quad 57s).

[KnuckleDragger]

25W is plenty - just listen to a Radford STA25, or Lowther LL26. Even 15W is sufficient for many listeners, witness the Radford STA15 or Quad II. And the 10W/channel Leak Stereo 20 will happily drive speakers of reasonable efficiency (and even those of low efficiency such as the Quad 57s).


And again. The issue still persists. The S500 is a good "get yourself going with valves" type amp. It is good for the price. However it most certainly is not perfect. If it was that good, then ask yourself why do many more expensive valve amps exist? It is an entry level valve integrated amp.
I believe the owner is expecting to much of it.

[Macca]

It also has high distortion even when not clipping - and the problem is distorted sound - coincidence?

[AJSki2fly]

Going back to the original post. I believe the issue is the Audio Innovations s500. It's a budget integrated amp. I agree with Macca when he said "I still think it is more likely to be the equipment"
For Jazz I can understand it sounds good. But for modern music or classical which has a lot of bass response, then this amp will struggle at only 25W per channel. At anything above low to moderate listening levels this amp will begin to distort. It will sound like it is struggling.

No it is NOT, the issue occurs with both the S500 and Soro amp that Mike has, and the issue also occurs not only with the AN J's but also his other speakers, He has various CDPs and swapped them around as well and still the issue persists, the best sounding CDP overall is the Mission, according to Mike.

The S500 actually is not a "budget" integrated amplifier as you describe it, when originally sold from 1986 it was market for £600-650 and at that time this was a significant amount of money for any hifi amplifier, it had several reviews at the time and was considered very good value for money and gave a good natural and neutral reproduction. I actually purchased one in 1988 and a pair of Snell type J's, I had it triode wired by the maker, I upgraded the valves to Golden Lions at the time, and the result was very, very good, and I kept the S500 for 18 years. I regretted selling it and purchased another 5 years later and used that for 6 years and got the same enjoyment. I used this combination in 3 difference houses and 4 rooms and it performed well, I replaced the J's with KEF Ref Model 3.2's in the third house as the J's were unable to fill a 24' by 15' room with low end bass.

If you tried to purchase a similar amplifier today it would cost at least 3-4 times, so £2K to £2.8K just based on inflation and production costs, so not a cheap option. Like all amplifiers it has some design constraints, if there wasn't then some manufacturers would be building the best sounding amps ever and charging not much for them and destroying the competition. There are in fact some very good amps out there that very good value for money, spending a fortune does not guarantee a good acoustic result.


Mike has a very difficult and challenging room acoustically as it is nearly square, with a kitchen off of one end. We have discussed this and to get the best from any system in his room will require careful placement of the speakers and sitting positioning furnishings, to get the best from it, whatever the system may be. He will need to address mid to high frequency echoes induced by the room. Mike has highlighted that one channel is worse that the other, this will be due to the room shape where one side of the room is re-enforcing the mid to high frequencies with echoes. This will require identifying walls and corners that are causing reflections/reverb in the mid-high frequencies, by placing blankets/towels on the hard surface walls and cushions/foam in the corners. He should be able to deaden the room right down, in fact if he does this well it should sound acoustically very flat and dull. He can then remove one sound deadening object at a time and see if the echoes/edgyness start to return, by experimentation he should reach the point where he minimises the room acoustics influence to the mid to high end causing the stridency. The critical areas are likely to be at 1/3, and 2/3 along the side wall(s) and in the corners nearest the listening position. Due to the near square room shape the ceiling may also need to be addressed, especially if it is smooth painted plaster, simple deflection panels hung appropriately will help if need, balloons or hung sheets can be used to find out. Once he knows what works where then aesthetically pleasing panels, art, or furniture can be used.

Some of you may consider the above rubbish, but I can assure you it certainly is not! I worked for 18 months in the Wolfson Unit sound and vibration laboratory at Southampton University, where we set up and performed a variety of tests in the anechoic chamber and 2 echo chambers(imperfect cubes) and out at various sites. We recorded and analysed the sounds/vibrations and then engineered and applied fixes to rectify the acoustic problems. What I learnt very quickly was that the environment in which sound or vibration is produced has a very big impact upon it. In the arena of reproduced music a poorly set up room and/or hifi system in it can and will have a detrimental impact on the end result. for example just go to a hifi show in a hotel or conference centre and walk into what was a bedroom or what was an empty room apart from able and chairs, and listen to some high end very expensive amplifier and speakers only to be disappointed, in fact often it will sound awful. This is because the system has been dumped into a poor acoustic setting, plain walls, probably a wall of glass on one wall, door left open, speakers plonked down where they look good but not necessarily good for acoustics, and to top it all nobody can actually get a good listening position, an utter waste of time, apart from looking at some nice gear.

[tapid]

I d be surprised if the 500 was a budget amp when it first appeared ?. Could be wrong. Well, as a previous 500/ border patrol owner I was always happy with the sound combined with Decca cart / malware arm.
However compared with Farlowe era exposure pre / power stuff as a direct comparison on cd the 500 sound quite dirty to my ears, though I might just prefer cleaner SS amps. Be interesting how vinyl sounds when
you get the mayware going Mike. 29 pages on this and not much further forward ?. Thats audio lol

[tapid]

Argh, Adrian just beat me to that and confirms it was not a budget amp.

[Macca]

£650 in 1986 is £1900 today.

Which is not a high price for a valve amp if you ignore the made in China stuff.

Also the price is not a guide to quality. They could just have had a large mark up and large dealer and distributor margins.

The Audionote is also a high distortion amplifier.

if the sound is distorted by the equipment no amount of room correction or room treatment is going to solve the problem. Better equipment is needed.

[AJSki2fly]

£650 in 1986 is £1900 today.

Which is not a high price for a valve amp if you ignore the made in China stuff.

Also the price is not a guide to quality. They could just have had a large mark up and large dealer and distributor margins.

The Audionote is also a high distortion amplifier.

if the sound is distorted by the equipment no amount of room correction or room treatment is going to solve the problem. Better equipment is needed.

You are not factoring in the increased costs of components, using similar quality available today, or increased manufacturing costs.

The S500 is a good amp IMO paired with suitable speakers it makes very good noises[emoji1]

I don’t know the Soro but I believe Mike said he considers the S500 is better.

As I said the room is very awkward and just plonking more expensive gear in there is not going to fix the issue, based on what we know to date. As I said before anyone who under-estimates the impact of room layout, furnishings, speaker position and so on and how it impacts the end result of a sound system is fooling themselves.


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[Macca]

I agree the room has a big influence. Over the years I've had set ups in 11 different rooms. But the room and furnishing won't be the cause of the sort of distortion that Mike describes.

[fatmarley]

Sounds like room treatment or EQ is the only thing left to try.

[Mikeandvan]

I agree the room has a big influence. Over the years I've had set ups in 11 different rooms. But the room and furnishing won't be the cause of the sort of distortion that Mike describes.

All those other amps I've owned whilst at this flat must be dodgy too then, including JVC AX 1010, Naim, Quad........

[AJSki2fly]

All those other amps I've owned whilst at this flat must be dodgy too then, including JVC AX 1010, Naim, Quad........

I doubt that, I just think your dodgy:lol:, only joking I am sure it can be resolved :eyebrows:

[jahsavage]

Low output is a problem with many valve amps.

I have heard AN/Es with a lot of very high priced Audio Note UK amps.

But when I plugged my 80 Watt 211 monos into a pair they just blew me away. Never heard them sound so good. Those monos can peak at 170 Watts.

The best AN amp I have heard on AN/Es was a 211 design. I documented it on this forum.

In all honesty I really think a lot more power is required than many of the AN amps actually provide for their own loudspeakers. Though the 211 AN amp was very good, even more power brings things even that very high priced item could not manage.

Hi Justin
Do the lights dim when you switch your amps on? They do sound scary from your description, you must have at least 4x211 per mono. As regards the AN/E, the S500 with a decent set of tubes should fill a small room with sound. Mine certainly did 30 years ago before they burnt out.

[Pharos]

If the problem is on one side only, swapping components is a useful way to eliminate.

[Mikeandvan]

However the issue still persists according to the OP. I have read people saying it's ears, etc.
I believe the issue is still the S500. Be it under powered or valve degradation/ Miss match. etc.
Or simply not up to the expectations of the user.

And you've taken into account the fact that I'm only driving AN J speakers? Hello.

[fatmarley]

Mike, Am I right in thinking you've replaced every piece of kit in your system (some multiple times), and the problem persists? Not only that, but your partner hears the same problem.

Surely It's got to be either the recordings or the room.

[AJSki2fly]

Mike, Am I right in thinking you've replaced every piece of kit in your system (some multiple times), and the problem persists? Not only that, but your partner hears the same problem.

Surely It's got to be either the recordings or the room.

If you read through the thread, long as may be, you will see virtually every aspect has been considered. Mike is in the process of moving room and hifi around and trying out some simple sound treatment to address probable mid to high frequency reflections. It is a very difficult room acoustically being nearly square, and complicated by a 50% opening to a kitchen at one end.

I believe he is getting it better, bit by bit.

[Macca]

And you've taken into account the fact that I'm only driving AN J speakers? Hello.

ANJ are not that sensitive and the amps real world power is probably less than quoted, You could easily be clipping it on peaks, such as a trumpet blast.

[AJSki2fly]

ANJ are not that sensitive and the amps real world power is probably less than quoted, You could easily be clipping it on peaks, such as a trumpet blast.

Martin, they are supposed to be 93dB rated nominal 6ohms which is reasonably sensitive by most people’s standards. It’s very similar to the Snell Js they are based on, and these are easy to drive with an S500. Mike is unlikely to be driving either of his valve amps hard as his room is not large, I doubt he has got its wick turned up more than 1/3 on the volume pot. I rarely drove mine over 40% as it all got pretty loud above that, although at one 50th party it held its own at about 60% with no noticeable distortion.

I have noticed on a couple of reviews from individuals the odd comment along the line that “some coloration in lower treble”, so maybe this along with the difficult room is what Mike is experiencing.

[Bourney]

That Soro SE drove my AN Ks which are less easy to drive than the Js with no problems, sounded meaty and tight and tidy at the top. No strain at all.

[Lawrence001]

Something's not quite right here but whether it's the room, the system or Mike's ears is hard to know without someone going over and giving a second opinion (maybe taking some alternative smoother sounding cables with them to have a play with).

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Macca]

I find it hard to imagine anyone else not being irritated by the aspects of my hifi which irritate me, my girlfriend certainly complains about it! Once my TT is set up I'll see whether its any better with vinyl. I changed my room around today, what a relief, hifi now much easier to access, speakers tidy in the corners, fair bit of space around them. I may get rid of those drawers to create more space around the hifi as I've yet to fit the TT shelf, and don't want it too close to the speaker. Much neater than before though and sounding a bit better, a cleaner sound, with slightly better resolution.

Tracks which cause issues? John colranes favourite things can grate at times, at the highest notes, Parts of Cape verdean blues (H Silver) sound a bit strident, not the first track though. Our man in Paris - That fantastic lp by Dexter Gordon - a few tracks off that. Some 70s jazz which is more dissonant anyway like Cannonball Adderly - Pyramid, and especially Eddie hendricks - Sunburst, Donald Byrd - street lady, these might be difficult one's to get sounding right on any system on CD anyway, I don't know.
/

Just ordered a cd of Donald Byrd Street Lady, see if it is the recording that's the problem. Should be here tomorrow.

[AJSki2fly]

Something's not quite right here but whether it's the room, the system or Mike's ears is hard to know without someone going over and giving a second opinion (maybe taking some alternative smoother sounding cables with them to have a play with).

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

Well as Mike says his girlfriend hears the same issue as he does it doesn't seem likely it is his hearing. He is using QED XT40's, es a budget cable but a highly respected one, and known for not colouring anything across the frequencies, they are also low impedance so should be helpful with driving the J's from his S500 or Soro.

Perhaps some other cables might be worth trying I thought about Duelund Dual DCA16GA tinned copper multistrand or perhaps try these pure copper and bi-wire, not expensive either https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/006-0085-jantzen-bi-wire-speaker-cable.html 2 * 3m runs would only cost £30, so well worth a try to see if they make any improvement/degredation over the QED's. The Duelands would be a bit more of an investment needing 4 *3m at £8.20/m +VAT so £118.08.

[AJSki2fly]

Just ordered a cd of Donald Byrd Street Lady, see if it is the recording that's the problem. Should be here tomorrow.

Good idea, well done Martin.:)

[anthonyTD]

The other aspect that i don't think anyone has mentioned is Mains, is there anything that has been added to the mains system either in your place, or to the whole building that might be a factor, if you think this may be worth considering, try and get hold of a known good design mains filter block, and run your whole system from it first to see if it makes a diffrence.
And for the record [excuse the punn] i think Adrian's asumption on the room playing a part has merit, so a re-arrange, and some carefuly placed room correction material may well be a big help.
A...

[Mikeandvan]

The other aspect that i don't think anyone has mentioned is Mains, is there anything that has been added to the mains system either in your place, or to the whole building that might be a factor, if you think this may be worth considering, try and get hold of a known good design mains filter block, and run your whole system from it first to see if it makes a diffrence.
And for the record [excuse the punn] i think Adrian's asumption on the room playing a part has merit, so a re-arrange, and some carefuly placed room correction material may well be a big help.
A...

Yes, I've had 2 amps blow on me here, so I now use a mains regenerator, the AG 1500 (power inspired).

[anthonyTD]

Ahh, ok, so have you tried just plugging back into the mains for a short time, to see if infact it may be down to the mains regenerator as far as the sound issue ?
Yes, I've had 2 amps blow on me here, so I now use a mains regenerator, the AG 1500 (power inspired).

[Mikeandvan]

Ahh, ok, so have you tried just plugging back into the mains for a short time, to see if infact it may be down to the mains regenerator as far as the sound issue ?

No, I'm scared of blowing another amp, but I do not some cheap 4 way socket with surge protection, the regenerator just puts out a very steady 230v, how would that degrade the sound?

[anthonyTD]

If its a true regenerator, then its just a big power amp in itself, hence it will impose its own character on the system!
No, I'm scared of blowing another amp, but I do not some cheap 4 way socket with surge protection, the regenerator just puts out a very steady 230v, how would that degrade the sound?

[Marco]

If its a true regenerator, then its just a big power amp in itself, hence it will impose its own character on the system!

Indeed, hence why I don't use them, even though I've maxed out the mains supply, powering my system, in *every* other conceivable way!:eek::D

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

Indeed, hence why I don't use them, even though I've maxed out the mains supply, powering my system, in *every* other conceivable way!:eek::D

Marco.

Being interested I had a read of https://www.powerinspired.com/brochures/hi-fi-world-ag1500s-review-sep-2018.pdf and according to them it is actually quite a good product outputting mains distortion of less than 1% under full load, standard mains across the UK is around 3% distortion without and crap added from the house circuit.

[Marco]

Yeah I'm sure it's fine, mate. Regen units just aren't part of my 'mains philosophy', which centers around a hard-wired, minimalist, fuse-less (where possible) approach, and lowest possible impedance.

I don't like 'unnecessary boxes' or complication in my mains set-up:)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Its full of switch mode supplies, and class D circuitry, hence the reason i asked if Mike could remove it, and try the system on its own.
But if he's not willing to entertain doing that, then i don't know what else to sugest, we need to eliminate all potential avenues, and this i am sure may be one that needs addressing before completely dismising its posible affect.
Being interested I had a read of https://www.powerinspired.com/brochures/hi-fi-world-ag1500s-review-sep-2018.pdf and according to them it is actually quite a good product outputting mains distortion of less than 1% under full load, standard mains across the UK is around 3% distortion without and crap added from the house circuit.

[Mikeandvan]

Its full of switch mode supplies, and class D circuitry, hence the reason i asked if Mike could remove it, and try the system on its own.
But if he's not willing to entertain doing that, then i don't know what else to sugest, we need to eliminate all potential avenues, and this i am sure may be one that needs addressing before completely dismising its posible affect.

Hi anthony, I will try the amp through regular mains with 4 way plug with surge protection which I guess will stop anything blowing, as I said I've had both an old JVC and a mint Roksan integrated that I just had to write off due to dodgy mains. Not quite as bad as my experiment with high end carts, a £400+ Audio technica which I broke in the first few days of use due to drowsiness brought on by hay fever, not a good day that one. After Adrian's and others suggestion on here I bough new Gold lion tubes for the S500 - both el34 (thanks to SPeedyJ) and ec88 and other 2 at the front, and it is sounding pretty sweet, can only hope they get better after run in, as they've only been in a few hours, mind you they do come 'burned in' already from Hotrox. Listening more carefully to my system now there seems to be some slight hiss with some parts of music coming from the tweeter, so I swapped speakers around it persists - but only with certain sounds - not persistent at all, so I've now inferred that it is down to the AN Js being quite a revealing speaker, like the raspy sound you sometimes get with wind instruments, when you hear the performer breathing into the instrument.

[AJSki2fly]

Yes i have experienced something similar, I put on Cd1 of Hawkwind Soace Ritual through Mission 508 CDp, AI S500 and Snell Js and after a few minutes I could hear Earth him. So I spent several hours investing, swapping cables etc, then I put on cd2 of the same, guess what no earth hum. Then I switched back and hey there was the hum, yes you’ve guessed it, the earth hum is on the recording, by the way my back up cdp did not retrieve it, not good enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KnuckleDragger]

And you've taken into account the fact that I'm only driving AN J speakers? Hello.


Yes, I have taken that into account. It is not an accurate amp.

[Pharos]

Indeed, hence why I don't use them, even though I've maxed out the mains supply, powering my system, in *every* other conceivable way!:eek::D

Marco.

Exactly my approach.

It should be OK to try without the mains generator briefly, and can be done at non extreme levels.

[Mikeandvan]

Yes, I have taken that into account. It is not an accurate amp.

And neither is the AN Soro se either I take it?

[Mikeandvan]

Have taken the AG1500 mains regenerator out of my system, no difference at all. Upper treble is still quite hard, will persevere!

[AJSki2fly]

Yes, I have taken that into account. It is not an accurate amp.

This is rubbish, the S500 Is a very good amp. The issue Mike is experiencing is there with several amps he has used.


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[fatmarley]

This is rubbish, the S500 Is a very good amp. The issue Mike is experiencing is there with several amps he has used.


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One being the Quad 306. The only complaint I've ever heard about that amp Is being a bit dull or overly smooth (sounds fine to me though).

[Marco]

Me too.. I've just bought one, as a second amp, and 'dull or overly smooth' it fundamentally isn't. If it sounds that way, blame something else in the partnering system creating that effect!:)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

One being the Quad 306. The only complaint I've ever heard about that amp Is being a bit dull or overly smooth (sounds fine to me though).

I can only think that anybody saying this has not heard one and is basing their comments on the character of the rather different sounding 6, 7 and 9 series power amps (which are good, but more laid back).

[AJSki2fly]

I can only think that anybody saying this has not heard one and is basing their comments on the character of the rather different sounding 6, 7 and 9 series power amps (which are good, but more laid back).

By laid back do you mean they tend to make you nod off?[emoji6]

[anthonyTD]

Good that you have at least eliminated that Mike!
A...
Have taken the AG1500 mains regenerator out of my system, no difference at all. Upper treble is still quite hard, will persevere!

[Macca]

Just ordered a cd of Donald Byrd Street Lady, see if it is the recording that's the problem. Should be here tomorrow.

CD is here so will try it on both of my systems later (after The Professionals and The Sweeny obvs), and see what the deal is.

[AJSki2fly]

So having got my digital shit sorted today I decided to have a listen to some of the tracks Mike has raised as having issues, and here are my findings.

Firstly all the tracks I listened to were either at CD SQ or higher so I should be getting at least the same or the full monty compared to your CD's

John Coltranes - 'favourite things', a very interesting one this, on QOBUZ there are 32 different albums with it on:-

Coolnote release sounds quite laid back and Coltrane was back in the mix, not nice overall
music manager 2011 was very odd to say the least, Coltrane sounded like he was in another room(horrible),
release 2010 by Pheonix USA was weird - in fact horrible
release 2012 by Black Sheep Music was certainly the best so far all instruments sounded natural, Coltrane though had moved from centre stage to right speaker, even on the very high notes his sax were not harsh
Release 1998 Rhino Atlantic (hi-res) this was virtually same as above, same mix I would say this is from the master tape, mixed to Stereo and sympathetically done. Very nice.Even at 7:40 for about 30 secs the high notes in the solo are clear, slightl edge, but I think this is the way it is.
Release 1960 BNF Mono - this is the original mix(I think)!. The detail is not as good as above and slightly edgy on the high notes, interesting.
Release 2014 AVID Entertainment - Remastered, this has had some quite serious sound processing to clean up the recording and get the best from it, it is the most open sound of all so far, Sax is very clear, 7:40 very high pitch notes are clear, no noticeable harshness
Sinetone AMR 2011 this is a clear mix, the sax is clear and they have obviously tried to get it how it sounded originally, at 7:40 the very high pitched do have some edginess

So the above is a can of WORMS IMO, the original recording I would say is rather dull and sounds a bit lifeless, which is why there are so many re-releases trying to clean it up. The Sinetome AMR and Black Sheep Music were my favourites, but I would say there is some edginess in places, but having played in a few amateur jazz bands I recognise it as just how a sax can sound when on the edge of control, so I think it is how it is.

Horace Silver - 'Pretty Eyes' some lovely trumpet on this, beautiful control, there is the odd bit of edginess at 3:15 to 3:32, but I think it is natural. By the way I have played that one.

Horace Silver - 'Bonita' interesting one this, at the beginning I think that there are two trumpets, or brass instruments, which are deliberately causing harmonic dissonance which sound right, it's deliberate, and very hard to do. At 4:30 the sax solo up and down the scale has some end note edge which is how it is IMO.

Eddie hendricks - Sunburst, there are some very high trumpet notes on this and some challenging synth at 38 to 45+ secs, at times you could say because of the mix the high pitched notes are in your ears big time, not exactly harsh but getting towards piercing on the ear. I think it is how it is!

Donald Byrd - street lady, get on down and boogie to this, a very up front mix, at times the riffing guitar and the horns harmonically sound slightly off pitch with each other, in places there are a lot of high notes from different instruments together, the flute in particular sounds as if it has been very closely mic'd up, and can sound a little harsh at points. the trumpet solo immediately after the flute has some very forward in the mix parts, its either the mix or the player got too close to the mic. Actually I can now hear the in the second solo he/she sounds too close, I think he/she may have been pushing the mic to its limits, or the recording was clipping.

Donald Byrd - Miss Kane, now this does have some very high and squelly cymbals, this mix has lots of high stuff all together so sounds a bit strident overall.

So there you have it, I enjoyed listening to them although I became bored with JC and 'Favourite Things"

IMHO I think the tracks do have some quite challenging high end content, some more than others, I have tried to be as objective as possible when listening. My Allnic 300B amp is pretty neutral IMO, and the Wilson Benesch Vectors are considered to be very accurate in the mid to top end, and they produce some good bass. So I think it was worth listening and letting you have my thoughts.

So I think the bottom line is that nearly any system will be challenged with these tracks, and actually some will never sound smooth or without some edge to them, purely due to the recording, musical content and/or mixing.

[fatmarley]

It will be interesting to hear what others think of the recordings. I suppose it could be a combination of the recordings and the room.

[Macca]

Just had a listen to the Donald Byrd album. It's a good quality recording with good dynamic range. After the first couple of tunes I couldn't detect any issues at all so I cranked the level right up beyond what I would normally listen at and played the rest of the album like that.

I used an Oppo universal player into a Soncoz SGD1 DAC into a Krell KSA100 Mk2 into JM Lab Electra 926' - volume controlled via the DAC.

But I couldn't hear any issues, it did not sound 'up front'. There was no break up on any instruments at any time.

Have to say I would not expect to hear any break up on a professional recording like this. It's a multitrack, they are not live takes so if there was a problem with overload on one track they'd just re-take, they wouldn't use it. Bear in mind if there was any overload then it would sound even worse on direct playback in the studio than it does playing the finished product at home.

I d be interested if anyone else who has this album or access to it would try and see if they can hear the flute issue.

Anyway - Caveats - The power amp is on the smooth/warm side of neutral, and my room is well damped with some treatment in one corner. There were a couple of occasions with the trumpet where I could imagine that in an underdamped room with a lot of hard surfaces, it might be too much and there'd be some ringing.

[Mikeandvan]

Good that you have at least eliminated that Mike!
A...

Yeah, and put it in the attic.:lol:

[Mikeandvan]

So having got my digital shit sorted today I decided to have a listen to some of the tracks Mike has raised as having issues, and here are my findings.

Firstly all the tracks I listened to were either at CD SQ or higher so I should be getting at least the same or the full monty compared to your CD's

John Coltranes - 'favourite things', a very interesting one this, on QOBUZ there are 32 different albums with it on:-

Coolnote release sounds quite laid back and Coltrane was back in the mix, not nice overall
music manager 2011 was very odd to say the least, Coltrane sounded like he was in another room(horrible),
release 2010 by Pheonix USA was weird - in fact horrible
release 2012 by Black Sheep Music was certainly the best so far all instruments sounded natural, Coltrane though had moved from centre stage to right speaker, even on the very high notes his sax were not harsh
Release 1998 Rhino Atlantic (hi-res) this was virtually same as above, same mix I would say this is from the master tape, mixed to Stereo and sympathetically done. Very nice.Even at 7:40 for about 30 secs the high notes in the solo are clear, slightl edge, but I think this is the way it is.
Release 1960 BNF Mono - this is the original mix(I think)!. The detail is not as good as above and slightly edgy on the high notes, interesting.
Release 2014 AVID Entertainment - Remastered, this has had some quite serious sound processing to clean up the recording and get the best from it, it is the most open sound of all so far, Sax is very clear, 7:40 very high pitch notes are clear, no noticeable harshness
Sinetone AMR 2011 this is a clear mix, the sax is clear and they have obviously tried to get it how it sounded originally, at 7:40 the very high pitched do have some edginess

So the above is a can of WORMS IMO, the original recording I would say is rather dull and sounds a bit lifeless, which is why there are so many re-releases trying to clean it up. The Sinetome AMR and Black Sheep Music were my favourites, but I would say there is some edginess in places, but having played in a few amateur jazz bands I recognise it as just how a sax can sound when on the edge of control, so I think it is how it is.

Horace Silver - 'Pretty Eyes' some lovely trumpet on this, beautiful control, there is the odd bit of edginess at 3:15 to 3:32, but I think it is natural. By the way I have played that one.

Horace Silver - 'Bonita' interesting one this, at the beginning I think that there are two trumpets, or brass instruments, which are deliberately causing harmonic dissonance which sound right, it's deliberate, and very hard to do. At 4:30 the sax solo up and down the scale has some end note edge which is how it is IMO.

Eddie hendricks - Sunburst, there are some very high trumpet notes on this and some challenging synth at 38 to 45+ secs, at times you could say because of the mix the high pitched notes are in your ears big time, not exactly harsh but getting towards piercing on the ear. I think it is how it is!

Donald Byrd - street lady, get on down and boogie to this, a very up front mix, at times the riffing guitar and the horns harmonically sound slightly off pitch with each other, in places there are a lot of high notes from different instruments together, the flute in particular sounds as if it has been very closely mic'd up, and can sound a little harsh at points. the trumpet solo immediately after the flute has some very forward in the mix parts, its either the mix or the player got too close to the mic. Actually I can now hear the in the second solo he/she sounds too close, I think he/she may have been pushing the mic to its limits, or the recording was clipping.

Donald Byrd - Miss Kane, now this does have some very high and squelly cymbals, this mix has lots of high stuff all together so sounds a bit strident overall.

So there you have it, I enjoyed listening to them although I became bored with JC and 'Favourite Things"

IMHO I think the tracks do have some quite challenging high end content, some more than others, I have tried to be as objective as possible when listening. My Allnic 300B amp is pretty neutral IMO, and the Wilson Benesch Vectors are considered to be very accurate in the mid to top end, and they produce some good bass. So I think it was worth listening and letting you have my thoughts.

So I think the bottom line is that nearly any system will be challenged with these tracks, and actually some will never sound smooth or without some edge to them, purely due to the recording, musical content and/or mixing.

I have an Atlantic cd issue of favourite things, I love Coltranes version, but agree its a bit tonally grey.

[Mikeandvan]

It will be interesting to hear what others think of the recordings. I suppose it could be a combination of the recordings and the room.

Must be my room, I should move flats.

[Mikeandvan]

Just had a listen to the Donald Byrd album. It's a good quality recording with good dynamic range. After the first couple of tunes I couldn't detect any issues at all so I cranked the level right up beyond what I would normally listen at and played the rest of the album like that.

I used an Oppo universal player into a Soncoz SGD1 DAC into a Krell KSA100 Mk2 into JM Lab Electra 926' - volume controlled via the DAC.

But I couldn't hear any issues, it did not sound 'up front'. There was no break up on any instruments at any time.

Have to say I would not expect to hear any break up on a professional recording like this. It's a multitrack, they are not live takes so if there was a problem with overload on one track they'd just re-take, they wouldn't use it. Bear in mind if there was any overload then it would sound even worse on direct playback in the studio than it does playing the finished product at home.

I d be interested if anyone else who has this album or access to it would try and see if they can hear the flute issue.

Anyway - Caveats - The power amp is on the smooth/warm side of neutral, and my room is well damped with some treatment in one corner. There were a couple of occasions with the trumpet where I could imagine that in an underdamped room with a lot of hard surfaces, it might be too much and there'd be some ringing.
I just played it as well, sounding better in my system now, still a few passages with spiky treble though. Since I changed all the valves to Gold Lion and put the speakers right back in the corners, more bass balances out the harsh treble I was getting, although with some music sounding a bit too warm/syrupy, leading to a sound which could be clearer. Overall though with jazz its better. I'll experiment with finer adjustments with speaker positioning and cable. What size is your listening room? I would consider moving flats, but where I live I have a lot of freedom to play music as much as I like at decent volume as I have so few neighbours.

[KnuckleDragger]

Must be my room, I should move flats.


I feel I must remind you why you started this thread:-
Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything elseYou have acknowledged the issue is your room. I just want to be clear that this whole exercise has been a wast of time. Do you think possibly that you should adjust the title to "room acoustics can really suck"

[Mikeandvan]

To recap, all valves in S500 now Gold Lion, mains regenerator in the attic, soon to be seen in the classifieds ('makes a huge difference'!). Audionote confirmed the old versions of the AN J I have are fine in corners, so I shoved them reet back in there, along with the spiders, and its great to get them out the way. Sofa - which I've always - silly me - had reet back up against the wall, now out about 2 feet into the room, this was a slight improvement, i could tell the moment I did it, bass less boomy. As usual it will take a few weeks to see whether I really like these changes, as I haven't had my TT set up for a while, don't know how that will sound, most of my rock is vinyl based too, so see how that sounds as opposed to just jazz (90% of my cds). In time I can see myself trying other speakers, and keeping the valves, but who knows.

[Mikeandvan]

I feel I must remind you why you started this thread:-
Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything elseYou have acknowledged the issue is your room. I just want to be clear that this whole exercise has been a wast of time. Do you think possibly that you should adjust the title to "room acoustics can really suck"

I'll tell you when I've played some rock, haven't any on cd, and my TTs have been out of action for a few weeks. I'm an amateur by the way, this is my first valve amp. I know naffffing.

[Marco]

Never mind this bollox, have you fitted that SC35C and NOS stylus yet?:ner:;)

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Never mind this bollox, have you fitted that SC35C and NOS stylus yet?:ner:;)

Marco.

No I have to bolt my TT shelf to the wall first, after moving my room around, basically swapping everything 180 degrees. These are big steps for me!

[Lawrence001]

Actually I blame the speakers now. Coincidentally I've just listed a pair that rock and would match the amp perfectly [emoji38]

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[AJSki2fly]

I feel I must remind you why you started this thread:-
Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything elseYou have acknowledged the issue is your room. I just want to be clear that this whole exercise has been a wast of time. Do you think possibly that you should adjust the title to "room acoustics can really suck"

It certainly is not a waste of time! If someone is struggling for whatever reason and any of us can help to improve the result, then that is great. I think Mike is on his way to a better sounding system and has a good understanding of how to approach so that’s great.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pharos]

Three things keep coming to mind, perspicacity, incisiveness, and penetrative thinking.

[Barry]

It certainly is not a waste of time! If someone is struggling for whatever reason and any of us can help to improve the result, then that is great. I think Mike is on his way to a better sounding system and has a good understanding of how to approach so that’s great.



Good post Adrian!

[AJSki2fly]

Good post Adrian!

Thank you[emoji8]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Three things keep coming to mind, perspicacity, incisiveness, and penetrative thinking.

Emmmm........

[Mikeandvan]

I feel I must remind you why you started this thread:-
Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything elseYou have acknowledged the issue is your room. I just want to be clear that this whole exercise has been a wast of time. Do you think possibly that you should adjust the title to "room acoustics can really suck"

Can we see a photo of your lovely Quad amps mate, with valves a-glowing.

[Marco]

No I have to bolt my TT shelf to the wall first, after moving my room around, basically swapping everything 180 degrees. These are big steps for me!

OKies, keep us posted:)

Oh, and Mr KnuckleDragger, cheer up! Less terse, rather negative posts, please. This is a smiley happy forum, for smiley happy people, so embrace that vibe and fit in, my man:thumbsup:

Marco.

[KnuckleDragger]

Can we see a photo of your lovely Quad amps mate, with valves a-glowing.


Certainly. I'm happy to post a piccy here if you would like. Are you doubting me?, lol. I apologies if I misjudge but people often doubt.
But if that is what you want, I'm happy to oblige. The weekend is now here. Please watch this space chap.

[KnuckleDragger]

OKies, keep us posted:)

Oh, and Mr KnuckleDragger, cheer up! Less terse, rather negative posts, please. This is a smiley happy forum, for smiley happy people, so embrace that vibe and fit in, my man:thumbsup:

Marco.

Hi Marco. I don't believe my posts have been negative or terse. I believe I have been giving honest responses. That is all I can do. If you feel my posts have been negative than please point it out. I have given a reasoned reply to all evidence of issues described.

This is an edit as I feel it is required. My intention is not to fit in. People may not like my honest replies. However my replies are honest, nothing more or less. Also with 20 years of experience designing cad software for loudspeaker design. I am looking shortly at releasing my work as open source. I feel that people may be interested in my views...or not.
I try not to bring emotion into my answers. I feel that maybe that is why you are incorrectly viewing my responses as negative or terse. However they are not.
My best regards.

[Pharos]

I think your stated stance KnuckleDragger is one I share.

I strive for objectivity, not only as a philosophical approach to Hi-Fi, but also with regard to interpersonal relationships, and I try to avoid off-topic innuendo.

There is of course the need for diplomacy, if one respects others' feelings that is, and sometimes truth can be hurtful to receive if it conflicts with a comfort zone based on illusion, and if someone is to receive bad news, it is best done with gentleness and care, despite our current zeitgeist.

[Macca]

There is of course the need for diplomacy, if one respects others' feelings that is, and sometimes truth can be hurtful to receive if it conflicts with a comfort zone based on illusion, and if someone is to receive bad news, it is best done with gentleness and care, despite our current zeitgeist.

Depends on the nature of the bad news. Bad news about illness and death or something similar needs to be conveyed with tact and empathy. I'm not sure that bad news about audio playback need to be treated with the same care and attention.

[Marco]

Hi Marco. I don't believe my posts have been negative or terse. I believe I have been giving honest responses. That is all I can do. If you feel my posts have been negative than please point it out. I have given a reasoned reply to all evidence of issues described.

This is an edit as I feel it is required. My intention is not to fit in. People may not like my honest replies. However my replies are honest, nothing more or less. Also with 20 years of experience designing cad software for loudspeaker design. I am looking shortly at releasing my work as open source. I feel that people may be interested in my views...or not.
I try not to bring emotion into my answers. I feel that maybe that is why you are incorrectly viewing my responses as negative or terse. However they are not.
My best regards.

Thanks for your response, Stephen, which is appreciated. You've shown rather more diplomacy in what you've written above, than in your other posts to date, so I thank you for that. Ok, so if not terse, then a bit abrupt.

I have no problem with frankness and honesty, indeed very much welcome it, but it must also be tempered with the realisation that you're addressing a fellow human being, with emotions and feelings, not simply posting replies to a 'bulletin board' - and on AoS we're very focussed on maintaining harmony and a sense of community spirit.

In that respect, AoS is very much a community of real people, not simply an 'Internet forum', so I would ask you to bear that in mind in future. As they say, it's not so much *what* you say, but HOW you say it, and if you wish to remain here, as indeed I'd like to see happen, because I think you have something positive to offer, then you must embrace that aspect of how we like our members to communicate with each other.

Here's a small tip: one of the reasons why we insist on people providing their real first names, and putting them on their profiles, is so we can address them by them, thus making subsequent communication friendlier and more real (like we're chatting as friends in real life). In that respect, you replied earlier with 'Hi Marco', which made what you wrote after it come across as polite and reasonable.

I'd suggest therefore that in future, when you contribute to threads such as this and want to be as honest as possible, that you start off by addressing the OP by his or her first name, before 'diving in' and telling it as you see it, as it were, as that will make them more receptive towards what your saying, and avoid discussions like this in future. It's been helpful that Mike is a rather laidback guy and not easily provoked or annoyed, but not everyone is like that.

Anyway, I hope you've taken what I've said in the spirit it was intended, and we can move on positively from this:)

Marco.

[the_bat]

a stringency still exists in the high notes of sax/trumpet solos, which is hard to bear

Assuming you meant stridency, I thought that was the way they sounded live:)

[Marco]

Depends on the nature of the bad news. Bad news about illness and death or something similar needs to be conveyed with tact and empathy. I'm not sure that bad news about audio playback need to be treated with the same care and attention.

I agree, but it's also worth bearing in mind that everyone is different and won't necessarily react to situations in the same way. Therefore, it's usually best to adopt a 'default position' of friendly and non-confrontational/non-antagonistic, than anything that could be remotely construed as the opposite:)

Marco.

[fatmarley]

Assuming you meant stridency, I thought that was the way they sounded live:)

With certain recordings it's a fine line.

When voicing my own diy speakers I have a Christina Aguilera track that I play (don't laugh). If it doesn't sound almost ear bleeding when she's belting out a cetain part, I know something's wrong. If it is ear bleeding, then I've gone too far the other way.

[Macca]

Assuming you meant stridency, I thought that was the way they sounded live:)

Depends on the recording process but a recorded trumpet is never going to sound identical to a live one. Mics, used, mic placement and the recording space.

Then there's probably compression, eq, limiting, reverb and a whole lot of other stuff than can be done afterwards (or while you're recording) so you get a sound that compliments the sort of music you're making and that is going to sound good to the punter who buys the recording and plays it back in his living room for fun.

[Pharos]

Depends on the nature of the bad news. Bad news about illness and death or something similar needs to be conveyed with tact and empathy. I'm not sure that bad news about audio playback need to be treated with the same care and attention.

Of course the approach should be dependant on the situation, but there are some audio folk who invest a great deal of their self worth on the quality of their system, and they may be extremely hurt even with the most sensitively delivered criticism.

[AJSki2fly]

Of course the approach should be dependant on the situation, but there are some audio folk who invest a great deal of their self worth on the quality of their system, and they may be extremely hurt even with the most sensitively delivered criticism.

I agree, and also it should be remembered that most people on AoS have put time, effort and money into their hifi of whatever stature it may be in audiophile terms, and most are justifiably proud of what they have, whether others like it or not. So for someone to come along and say some of their gear or system is poor or should be replaced then it very likely to cause upset, especially if an individual has asked for advice on issues they are having. Also we should not forget, as we hopefully all appreciate, getting an audio system to sound great is not the easiest thing in the world to do, there are a great many variables involved, not just the kit and its synergy with each other, but how it is installed, the room layout and how it interacts with it.

There are certain pieces of equipment that I have learnt from personal experience I would not recommend, I try and observe caution before giving my opinions to owners of them unless they ask for it specifically if they know I experience of it. I might offer genuine advice on what might gain improvements but resist direct criticism. In the past my wife has often pulled me up for just saying it the way it is without any real tact or diplomacy, and I have learnt that it is best to consider what I do and say first, rather than regret the result after and possibly loose a friendship or unnecessarily upset someone. This does not mean I do not put my views across but rather do so in a fitting and appropriate manner.

Like Marco said, in my view its not what you say but how you say it that is important.

[Mikeandvan]

Certainly. I'm happy to post a piccy here if you would like. Are you doubting me?, lol. I apologies if I misjudge but people often doubt.
But if that is what you want, I'm happy to oblige. The weekend is now here. Please watch this space chap.

I thought you might have been a figment of some other members imagination, or may'be from a Russian troll farm? I suppose with a moniker like Knuckledragger what does one expect! Good day to you sir.

[anthonyTD]

:)
I agree, and also it should be remembered that most people on AoS have put time, effort and money into their hifi of whatever stature it may be in audiophile terms, and most are justifiably proud of what they have, whether others like it or not. So for someone to come along and say some of their gear or system is poor or should be replaced then it very likely to cause upset, especially if an individual has asked for advice on issues they are having. Also we should not forget, as we hopefully all appreciate, getting an audio system to sound great is not the easiest thing in the world to do, there are a great many variables involved, not just the kit and its synergy with each other, but how it is installed, the room layout and how it interacts with it.

There are certain pieces of equipment that I have learnt from personal experience I would not recommend, I try and observe caution before giving my opinions to owners of them unless they ask for it specifically if they know I experience of it. I might offer genuine advice on what might gain improvements but resist direct criticism. In the past my wife has often pulled me up for just saying it the way it is without any real tact or diplomacy, and I have learnt that it is best to consider what I do and say first, rather than regret the result after and possibly loose a friendship or unnecessarily upset someone. This does not mean I do not put my views across but rather do so in a fitting and appropriate manner.

Like Marco said, in my view its not what you say but how you say it that is important.

[Mikeandvan]

How long do valve amps normally take to come on song after switch on? Once mine is on there are days - when its raining! Where I'll leave it on for like 5 hours. I don't mind too much having to replace valves say once a year if I have to.

[Marco]

In the past my wife has often pulled me up for just saying it the way it is without any real tact or diplomacy, and I have learnt that it is best to consider what I do and say first, rather than regret the result after and possibly loose a friendship or unnecessarily upset someone. This does not mean I do not put my views across but rather do so in a fitting and appropriate manner.


Hey, Adrian, respect to your good lady for keeping you in line, lol!:respect:;)

Seriously though, you (and she) are spot on. Tact and diplomacy, along indeed with showing respect for your fellow man, regardless of what you think of his or her system or hi-fi views, is something that we will always INSIST upon here. It is a fundamental part of what makes AoS, AoS, and the sense of community that has been generated by everyone since the site's inception.

So if someone refuses to 'fit in', in that respect, and comply with how we do things here, then they can simply go elsewhere for their 'hi-fi kicks', as we only want people here who are willing to behave in the required manner. It's really as simple as that:cool:

Marco.

[AJSki2fly]

How long do valve amps normally take to come on song after switch on? Once mine is on there are days - when its raining! Where I'll leave it on for like 5 hours. I don't mind too much having to replace valves say once a year if I have to.

The more you use them the better imo, mine takes about 30 minutes to hit the sweet spot. TBH I don’t worry about it to much just enjoy the music , once your new valves have settled down it will be on song just the same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Just one thing I was thinking of Mike, have tried returning to the EL34 output valves that the amp (and its transformers) was originally designed to be used with, instead of the 5881/6L6s?

Try some nice NOS Mullards... I'm almost certain that would cheer things up!:)

Marco.

[Pharos]

How long do valve amps normally take to come on song after switch on? Once mine is on there are days - when its raining! Where I'll leave it on for like 5 hours. I don't mind too much having to replace valves say once a year if I have to.

This raises an issue for me which really bothers me. My happiness, or not, with my system, is so dependant on how I am affected by the weather.
I despair and tell myself to grow up when it is raining and windy outside with dark clouds here, the sea splashing all over the beach in the near distance - Wrath of God feeling, which undermines all of my activity. The speakers are either side of a large window and the rain a day ago was so loud that I had to turn the sound up to quite high levels, with water pouring down the pains in high volumes. In fact I also watched a film on which was similarly intense rain on windows, and it was virtually indistinguishable from the reality of that on my own.

This should not affect my perception of sound, but when the sun is out and a light breeze blowing through my open front door, the sound appears to be better, and often to the point of joy.

I conclude that to be entirely objective in this situation is impossible, and that it is futile to try to overcome this, because our brains are wired to be concerned with potential survival threats above all else.

[Pigmy Pony]

This raises an issue for me which really bothers me. My happiness, or not, with my system, is so dependant on how I am affected by the weather.
I despair and tell myself to grow up when it is raining and windy outside with dark clouds here, the sea splashing all over the beach in the near distance - Wrath of God feeling, which undermines all of my activity. The speakers are either side of a large window and the rain a day ago was so loud that I had to turn the sound up to quite high levels, with water pouring down the pains in high volumes. In fact I also watched a film on which was similarly intense rain on windows, and it was virtually indistinguishable from the reality of that on my own.

This should not affect my perception of sound, but when the sun is out and a light breeze blowing through my open front door, the sound appears to be better, and often to the point of joy.

I conclude that to be entirely objective in this situation is impossible, and that it is futile to try to overcome this, because our brains are wired to be concerned with potential survival threats above all else.

Good morning Dennis,

I sympathise with you mate, the time, money and effort that goes into your enjoyment, only to have it scuppered frequently by forces outside your control (the weather). But I suppose it's part and parcel of where you live.

A couple of suggestions: replacing your large window with a new, better performing one, or if it is already modern, you could replace the double glazed units with triple glazed ones. Both options would lower the noise floor to some degree. Can't do much about the rainy view apart from closing the curtains, but it occurs to me that a bit if SAD might be at play here too. Vitamin D is supposed to help.

Also, if you live in a bungalow or your listening room is upstairs (basically have you got a roof directly above your ceiling), "light tunnels" can be very good at bringing natural light into a room. Look at me spending all your money like there's no tomorrow! :eek: Apologies if you have already considered and rejected these ideas :)

Objective ideas to deal with a largely subjective problem as we're all different - Mrs. P likes being in her dad's conservatory (polycarbonate roof) when it's raining. The sound takes her back to her childhood caravan holidays, and she finds it cosy and comforting. I on the other hand can't hear myself think...

[Marco]

This should not affect my perception of sound, but when the sun is out and a light breeze blowing through my open front door, the sound appears to be better, and often to the point of joy.


Understandable, Dennis. It'll naturally be a psychological effect, when your spirits are lifted. As Steve's said, it appears you're suffering from the effects of SAD, which I presume isn't something that's new to you? Sorry to hear that, and there are treatments for it.

Interestingly, for me, in terms of how my system sounds, it's the opposite, as when the earth rods plunged into my lawn are 'well watered', it lowers the impedance of my mains supply [yes a sparky and me were sad enough to measure it:eek:], and consequently my system sounds better when it's raining!

Anyway, I hope you can take some effective steps to combat your gloomy mood in the bad weather and feel better about things soon:)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

:)
Understandable, Dennis.

Anyway, I hope you can take some effective steps to combat your gloomy mood in the bad weather and feel better about things soon:)

Marco.

[Pharos]

I think that I've not presented the right emphasis on my situation in my description; it is not the facts of the environmental imposition which I am troubled by so much as the deeper psychological effects, and I am not seeking your much appreciated help so much as expressing my plight, which also calls into question ability to be objective.

Surely the SQ is not in reality affected by swathing dark clouds and high winds and flying past tree branches which should not objectively be affecting the sound quality, with the exception f course that the very loud rain is really there.

As an extra, my bedroom is in a corner with a window behind my head and another to my left, which is facing the sea. When we have thunder storms at night it is really like the Wrath of God, or Armageddon, when being woken up in the middle of the night. It is contextual, the storms are frequently photographed and featured elsewhere, whereas when I am wakened I'm wondering what evil I've committed against the universe.

I think it is the imposition troubling me, and this response rooted in our survival mechanisms, a provoked instinctual response, and we are in reality vulnerable to the vagaries of nature, as is shown with the Greek earthquake amongst many other examples recently.

However my complaint/critique is in the context of being brought up in our culture as 'mature intellectual beings, (far above animals'), especially in education, and it being implied that we should not be rattled by loud rain, or our mood affected by lovely sun and soft air, so internally I am saying to myself, "Pull yourself together lad, it is less pleasant, and it may be uncomfortable, but it is unlikely to kill us."

I agree that there is comfort in hearing the loud rain and having a warm shelter.

The SPL of the horizontal rain is often around 65dB, and the cat is very alarmed by it also, maybe we all would find it a little disturbing.

I don't think I am suffering with SAD, and I do take about 20 vitamins and supplements every morning, and it is not a temporary mood related aspect of life, but a hard wired internal response IMO.

[Macca]

All sound has to go through the brain, which both filters and adds, so quite normal for our mood to affect what we 'hear.' We're not the consistent monitoring devices some seem to think we are.

I used to live right on top of a steep hill on the edge of town and we'd get similar violent weather effects there. I loved it, but I was a lot younger then. I also used to enjoy being on ships in stormy weather. Maybe I'd feel differently about it now.

[walpurgis]

All sound has to go through the brain, which both filters and adds, so quite normal for our mood to affect what we 'hear.' We're not the consistent monitoring devices some seem to think we are.

People don't even hear similarly in both ears as a rule.

[Lawrence001]

So as this thread is about the issue with Mike's system, are we coming to the conclusion that he is in a permanent bad mood and he needs to do something to make himself happy to enjoy his system?

Maybe some uppers or a bottle of whisky are the solution then. Forget what I said about trying some different cables [emoji23]

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Macca]

Booze is the most cost-effective upgrade you can do ;)

[Mikeandvan]

Just one thing I was thinking of Mike, have tried returning to the EL34 output valves that the amp (and its transformers) was originally designed to be used with, instead of the 5881/6L6s?

Try some nice NOS Mullards... I'm almost certain that would cheer things up!:)

Marco.

You mean with the Soro? I was using the S500 for the past week with all new gold lion valves, but have just today put the SOro back in, haven;t changed any of these valves yet, but I could of course try the Gold lion el34 with the soro. With the new Gold lion valves I was finding the S500 a bit on the warm side, the Soro is sounding better in that respect with just the valves that came with it.

[AJSki2fly]

You mean with the Soro? I was using the S500 for the past week with all new gold lion valves, but have just today put the SOro back in, haven;t changed any of these valves yet, but I could of course try the Gold lion el34 with the soro. With the new Gold lion valves I was finding the S500 a bit on the warm side, the Soro is sounding better in that respect with just the valves that came with it.

Hi Mike,

The Golden Lions will take some time to bed in and will change a bit during the process, so I would give them at least 100 hour of use before deciding it sounds rich or not. Also you may have become very accustomed to a slightly harder sound due the you previous set up. you mentioned you have move the speakers back towards the wall, this will absolutely definitely enhance the bass, so bring them out a little, try 2cm at a time until you you like what you hear, use the same track each time to listen, you should find the sweet spot.

Also if they are near the sidewalls toe them in so that the centre line from the each speaker just passes your ears and crosses just behind your head when you are sat directly in the centre of the speakers on your sofa. Because you are only a few feet from the wall behind you, slightly more toe in may improve the sound for you, just make a little change a a time.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Adrian

[Marco]

You mean with the Soro? I was using the S500 for the past week with all new gold lion valves, but have just today put the SOro back in, haven;t changed any of these valves yet, but I could of course try the Gold lion el34 with the soro.

Yes, try it and report back:)

Marco.

[KnuckleDragger]

I think your stated stance KnuckleDragger is one I share.

I strive for objectivity, not only as a philosophical approach to Hi-Fi, but also with regard to interpersonal relationships, and I try to avoid off-topic innuendo.

Thank you, This is my intention, however:-


There is of course the need for diplomacy, if one respects others' feelings that is, and sometimes truth can be hurtful to receive if it conflicts with a comfort zone based on illusion, and if someone is to receive bad news, it is best done with gentleness and care, despite our current zeitgeist.

I do not think that being a diplomat is anyone job. As stated by Macca:-


Depends on the nature of the bad news. Bad news about illness and death or something similar needs to be conveyed with tact and empathy. I'm not sure that bad news about audio playback need to be treated with the same care and attention.

My free time is limited. I am not offensive nor do I mock or deride people. I try to stay on point giving what I believe to be accurate information. I am taking it for granted that we are all adults and not "safe space, snowflakes". As stated previously, I do not intend to be controversial.


I have no problem with frankness and honesty, indeed very much welcome it, but it must also be tempered with the realisation that you're addressing a fellow human being, with emotions and feelings

Yes Marco, I am aware of that. Being one myself. However I am unable to give an honest reply if I am taking an adults "feelings" into consideration. Again, I am not in anyway confrontational. All I can do is give what I believe to be an honest reply.
I always treat the person I am responding to like an adult, nothing less. If I took a persons feelings into consideration when discussing such topics, then I would be treating them as inferior. Which they are not. It is not for me to judge from on high what someone may "feel" I do not hold that superior position.
I do hope that I have provided clarification. Also I would like to remain here, giving and taking others advice when required.
My best regards.

[Pharos]

In post 379 there are errors of thinking.

"I do not think that being a diplomat is anyone job. As stated by Macca"
I think that we all should attempt diplomacy because humans differ in sensitivity, and as a humanist I feel that hurting others' feelings is best avoided, the one exception being if they are being deliberately nasty.

"I am taking it for granted that we are all adults and not "safe space, snowflakes"".

I do not see sensitivity as in any way childish or infantile, but I do see deliberate indifference to others' feelings as just that.

"However I am unable to give an honest reply if I am taking an adults "feelings" into consideration"

The most obvious exception to this is in giving praise, but also one can also be honest in a concerned and sensitive way when giving a necessarily negative opinion to others in order to comply with honesty.

[KnuckleDragger]

In post 379 there are errors of thinking.

"I do not think that being a diplomat is anyone job. As stated by Macca"

Incorrect. It was stated by me.


I think that we all should attempt diplomacy because humans differ in sensitivity, and as a humanist I feel that hurting others' feelings is best avoided, the one exception being if they are being deliberately nasty.

I am also a humanist. I also agree deliberately hurting peoples feelings should be avoided. However I do not attempt to deliberately hurt peoples feelings. You are creating a strawman argument.


I do not see sensitivity as in any way childish or infantile, but I do see deliberate indifference to others' feelings as just that.

You are entitled to your opinion. However I believe you are incorrect. With your comment about giving praise.
Praise should be earned. Not just given as a consolation prize for not coming first. I am not indifferent to peoples feelings. Your assertion about being indifferent to others feelings is just way off the mark. May I ask you where you got "childish or infantile" from. As it was not from me.

This is just getting bloody well out of hand. I cannot believe what I am being forced to respond to. Please, just get back on subject.

[Barry]

Please, just get back on subject.

I agree, this thread drift is not helping to solve Mike's problems with his system.

[Pharos]

I think that our own inaccurate thinking should be addressed by each of us, and that it is fairly evident when it occurs, but I agree strongly that Mike's concerns must have primacy. I apologise Mike.

[walpurgis]

For a now rather long thread, no real direction seems to have been established, things appear as they were at the start. Unresolved.

(although there has in my opinion been entertaining input, if unintentional)

[Pharos]

Let's all pile round to Mike's!

[Mikeandvan]

Let's all pile round to Mike's!

Hifi rescue? Could we make this fly with the BBC?

[Mikeandvan]

For a now rather long thread, no real direction seems to have been established, things appear as they were at the start. Unresolved.

(although there has in my opinion been entertaining input, if unintentional)

I wouldn't say that, at the least I've learnt a bit about valves, sound is improving bit by bit, although I wouldn't rule out a change of direction, currently trying to decide which amp to keep, then I may try some other speakers in time.

[fatmarley]

If you could play with EQ and find out the problem frequency that could help with possible speaker choices.

[Mikeandvan]

If you could play with EQ and find out the problem frequency that could help with possible speaker choices.

Yes I keep meaning to get one of those room measurements thingys!

[AJSki2fly]

If you could play with EQ and find out the problem frequency that could help with possible speaker choices.

Good suggestion Matt, gave me thought.

Mike, if you have a laptop, then you could download REW onto it, https://www.roomeqwizard.com, it is free, then all you need is a simple microphone(possibly) to plug into your laptop. You place the microphone exactly where your head would be, best on top of a stack of cushions. You also need a 3.5mm jack to two RCA's to connect form the headphone output to your amp, so it needs to be long enough to do this and have the microphone where you sit.

REW enables you to run a frequency sweep through your system from 20hz to 20Khz or more if you choose, (it is configurable), as it does so the microphone feeds the out put into the software which then plots the dB measurement across the range. This is very useful as it will clearly show peaks and troughs at different frequencies. So for example if you are actually getting enhanced high frequencies these would show in sudden peaks. Obviously initially you will not know it it is speaker design or positioning, or amplifier, or siting position. So you choose one of these and modify it, for example move the speakers away from the walls and take another sweep, you then compare that with the previous one and see if there is any major change, good to bad, if bad move them back to be nearer the walls, and redo, check if good or bad, and then decide whether to move them back to original or towards it. You keep doing so until you minimise peaks and troughs. Once you have the back and forward position optimised, repeat with moving them in and out, try and avoid shifting them forward of back when you do this. Once again take repeated measurements until you minimise peaks and troughs.

Before your the first sweep turn the volume output down on the laptop, and the volume on the amp down to a low level first, if it is very quiet then increase the amp volume to about 1/3. You can then use the REW calibration feature to ensure the output levels are right and the microphone is recording at the right level.

Once you have calibrate and done your speaker position sweeps as above then I would suggest swapping the amplifier, leaving the speakers where you have the best response across the frequencies, do a sweep measurement and then you can compare, I suspect you will not see much difference here, but I could be wrong. Stick with the amp that looks best for now.

Now to find the optimum listening spot so you can now move the microphone forward, say initially 3', and measure, run the frequency sweep and see if it is better(flatter) or worse) peaks and troughs) increase. if it is worse then move it back 1' 6", and try again. You repeat going back and forward until you find the optimum position, it should only take 3 or 4 goes.

Once you have done the above, you could try re-checking the speaker position but only will small movements not more than 3" back or forward, at a time and similarly in or out form the sidewalls. This may make a subtle improvement.

I know the above sounds a bit tedious, but it is the one way of physically seeing how equipment and its position will affect the sound. When you take the first measurement I would expect you to have peaks and troughs all over the place, do not panic over this, it is to be expected. Remember you are just using this as a tool to try and minimise those peaks and troughs, you will never achieve a flat frequency response across 20-20Khz, and it would probably sound awful if you did. You definitely can expect to see a roll off at the lower frequencies(dB drop), probably around 45-50hz, that's to be expected. Higher up the frequency range I would expect a drop in dB at around 13-14Khz. It is best to focus on peaks and troughs from 45hz to about 5Khz, and any obvious
high peaks above, which may be your harshness issues, "The midrange frequencies, also referred to as the midrange, is typically the frequency range between 300Hz and 5,000Hz. This is the range where the majority of audio content is in most music, movies and TV shows.".

If you get to find the best combination, you could try some subtle room treatments as suggest before, cushions in the corners(stop high end reflections, echo), blankets at the side of speakers on walls. As you do so measure and compare with you final frequency sweep, you will see the impact of these and what works and what does not.

If cannot or you do not want to spend time with the REW software, then you can do the same process but using your ears and listening to one or two very familiar tracks, Pick something that musically does not have too much going on and is well recorded, the test listening track I sent you would be a good place to start.

[Mikeandvan]

Good suggestion Matt, gave me thought.

Mike, if you have a laptop, then you could download REW onto it, https://www.roomeqwizard.com, it is free, then all you need is a simple microphone(possibly) to plug into your laptop. You place the microphone exactly where your head would be, best on top of a stack of cushions. You also need a 3.5mm jack to two RCA's to connect form the headphone output to your amp, so it needs to be long enough to do this and have the microphone where you sit.

REW enables you to run a frequency sweep through your system from 20hz to 20Khz or more if you choose, (it is configurable), as it does so the microphone feeds the out put into the software which then plots the dB measurement across the range. This is very useful as it will clearly show peaks and troughs at different frequencies. So for example if you are actually getting enhanced high frequencies these would show in sudden peaks. Obviously initially you will not know it it is speaker design or positioning, or amplifier, or siting position. So you choose one of these and modify it, for example move the speakers away from the walls and take another sweep, you then compare that with the previous one and see if there is any major change, good to bad, if bad move them back to be nearer the walls, and redo, check if good or bad, and then decide whether to move them back to original or towards it. You keep doing so until you minimise peaks and troughs. Once you have the back and forward position optimised, repeat with moving them in and out, try and avoid shifting them forward of back when you do this. Once again take repeated measurements until you minimise peaks and troughs.

Before your the first sweep turn the volume output down on the laptop, and the volume on the amp down to a low level first, if it is very quiet then increase the amp volume to about 1/3. You can then use the REW calibration feature to ensure the output levels are right and the microphone is recording at the right level.

Once you have calibrate and done your speaker position sweeps as above then I would suggest swapping the amplifier, leaving the speakers where you have the best response across the frequencies, do a sweep measurement and then you can compare, I suspect you will not see much difference here, but I could be wrong. Stick with the amp that looks best for now.

Now to find the optimum listening spot so you can now move the microphone forward, say initially 3', and measure, run the frequency sweep and see if it is better(flatter) or worse) peaks and troughs) increase. if it is worse then move it back 1' 6", and try again. You repeat going back and forward until you find the optimum position, it should only take 3 or 4 goes.

Once you have done the above, you could try re-checking the speaker position but only will small movements not more than 3" back or forward, at a time and similarly in or out form the sidewalls. This may make a subtle improvement.

I know the above sounds a bit tedious, but it is the one way of physically seeing how equipment and its position will affect the sound. When you take the first measurement I would expect you to have peaks and troughs all over the place, do not panic over this, it is to be expected. Remember you are just using this as a tool to try and minimise those peaks and troughs, you will never achieve a flat frequency response across 20-20Khz, and it would probably sound awful if you did. You definitely can expect to see a roll off at the lower frequencies(dB drop), probably around 45-50hz, that's to be expected. Higher up the frequency range I would expect a drop in dB at around 13-14Khz. It is best to focus on peaks and troughs from 45hz to about 5Khz, and any obvious
high peaks above, which may be your harshness issues, "The midrange frequencies, also referred to as the midrange, is typically the frequency range between 300Hz and 5,000Hz. This is the range where the majority of audio content is in most music, movies and TV shows.".

If you get to find the best combination, you could try some subtle room treatments as suggest before, cushions in the corners(stop high end reflections, echo), blankets at the side of speakers on walls. As you do so measure and compare with you final frequency sweep, you will see the impact of these and what works and what does not.

If cannot or you do not want to spend time with the REW software, then you can do the same process but using your ears and listening to one or two very familiar tracks, Pick something that musically does not have too much going on and is well recorded, the test listening track I sent you would be a good place to start.

Thanks Adrian, it does sound tedious, think I'll just use my ears! Where do I put the cushions? In the ceiling or the floor or both?

[Pharos]

You could purchase a 33 band graphic, (which is what I am considering, partly to educate my ears, but also tweek), and then sell it when your done.

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks Adrian, it does sound tedious, think I'll just use my ears! Where do I put the cushions? In the ceiling or the floor or both?

Try placing a pillows up in the corners, behind you first. You can check the effect before and after by clapping your hands to hear the echo. Do the same with blanket/towels hung on walls next to speakers. When it’s deadened a bit have a listen to some music to decide what you do or don’t like about the change.


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[Mikeandvan]

Try placing a pillows up in the corners, behind you first. You can check the effect before and after by clapping your hands to hear the echo. Do the same with blanket/towels hung on walls next to speakers. When it’s deadened a bit have a listen to some music to decide what you do or don’t like about the change.


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Any tips for keeping pillows in the corners?

[AJSki2fly]

Any tips for keeping pillows in the corners?

Nails :eek:, only joking as you are trying it out temporarily how about getting a broom and a stool so you can wedged the broom under the pillow, or you could try using some drawing pins.

Instead of pillows you could get some scrap material and cut it into roughly 3' * 3' * 3' equilateral triangles and then pin these up in the corners like a drape, this should stop the high end reflections as well.

Be interesting to know how you find it. :)

[Mikeandvan]

Got a turntable connected now, not the best set up, but enough to hear that The Buzzcocks probably never featured in any of the reviews of either these amps or the ANJs:lol:

[AJSki2fly]

I think acoustically the Buzzcocks were more about raw noise and feeling rather than tonal supremacy[emoji23]


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[Pharos]

I wouldn't rate any punk era for SQ, they were rebelling against the prog rock finesse.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I wouldn't rate any punk era for SQ, they were rebelling against the prog rock finesse.

Although other music in the punk era still occurred, and some has good SQ. ie Dire straits first album.

[AJSki2fly]

Although other music in the punk era still occurred, and some has good SQ. ie Dire straits first album.

Try some XTC or Comsat Angels albums��

[Mikeandvan]

And also stuff like the Rolling Stones, that's not so great with this set up too, which brings me back to my original premise :lol: Although I possibly/probably should have stated Audio Note Js, rather than valve amps. Was reading a similar thread over on Pink fish fainting ladies the other day about Living voice speakers, great with simple music, shit with everything else.

[Pharos]

Yes I misstated my intention, not "punk era" but "Punk genre".

Dire Straits first, very good.

[anthonyTD]

:)
Although other music in the punk era still occurred, and some has good SQ. ie Dire straits first album.

[AJSki2fly]

And also stuff like the Rolling Stones, that's not so great with this set up too, which brings me back to my original premise :lol: Although I possibly/probably should have stated Audio Note Js, rather than valve amps. Was reading a similar thread over on Pink fish fainting ladies the other day about Living voice speakers, great with simple music, shit with everything else.

I have a number of Rolling Stones records and CDs and to be honest I would question the SQ or care put into some of them. Sine tracks sound great and then there can be quite thin and top ends, not sure why but I find some of what I have of theirs irritating to listen to, it’s not the musical content but the production/mix.


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[Barry]

The original Decca recordings are very good. Some of the CD remasters are questionable and some of them are re-mixes.

[Macca]

The original Decca recordings are very good. Some of the CD remasters are questionable and some of them are re-mixes.

The SACDs are all re-mixed and re-mastered, they sound good, they are hybrids so you don't need a SACD capable player. I tend to listen to the original CD releases though. More authentic.

The original recordings were not state of the art even for back then and SQ varies from song to song sometimes. But none of them sound 'nasty' or hard to listen to.

I'm talking Beggar's Banquet onwards here, I don't have any of their earlier albums.

[Pigmy Pony]

Try some XTC or Comsat Angels albums��

Like The Big Express or The Black Sea, both pretty good productions imv.

Or how about a nice 180gm pressing of Slaughter and the Dogs' "Cranked up Really High" :eek: Maybe not

[Barry]

The SACDs are all re-mixed and re-mastered, they sound good, they are hybrids so you don't need a SACD capable player. I tend to listen to the original CD releases though. More authentic.

The original recordings were not state of the art even for back then and SQ varies from song to song sometimes. But none of them sound 'nasty' or hard to listen to.

I'm talking Beggar's Banquet onwards here, I don't have any of their earlier albums.

I too prefer the original CD releases. The CD collection of their hits sound exactly like my 7" singles of the time.

Had the Decca engineers had their way the sound would have been very good: as good as that for Decca's classical recordings. But when the Stones were informed that they were playing too close to the microphones and too loudly, overloading them and distorting, they replied that was exactly what they wanted - a "dirty sound".

[Haselsh1]

I've always found a lot the Stones albums to be quite severe in the treble whether CD or vinyl.

[Jac Hawk]

I have a number of Rolling Stones records and CDs and to be honest I would question the SQ or care put into some of them. Sine tracks sound great and then there can be quite thin and top ends, not sure why but I find some of what I have of theirs irritating to listen to, it’s not the musical content but the production/mix.


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There's nothing more disappointing than a poorly produced / mixed album and of course the reverse is true that when you get a well produced recording it makes you smile every time you put it on, what rubs my rhubarb with a poor sounding album is that someone has listened to it when being mastered and thought it was ok:doh::steam::steam:

[Haselsh1]

So true Mike. It makes me wonder what sort of system was used for production.

[Idlewithnodrive]

I'm jumping in really late to this thread (and haven't trawled through 40+ pages, so hope this is relevant :) ) and am also a recent returner to valve amplification.

Valve amps most certainly can do Rock / Punk / Psych / EDM / Dub etc well; it's pretty much all I listen to. As with all things though, it has to be the right valve amp; certain brands, topologies, speakers etc are more suited to certain genres and, having owned AN, it is not a brand I would associate with Rock music.

I now have a 35W EL-34 based Amp (had never got on with EL-34's before this Amp) and a pair of fairly insensitive (87dB, 6 Ohm) speakers and am in Rock Nirvana. I also listen to left-field Jazz and some Girl and Gittar stuff, which also sounds good.

I guess it all just boils down to component selection and matching.

[fatmarley]

what rubs my rhubarb with a poor sounding album is that someone has listened to it when being mastered and thought it was ok:doh::steam::steam:

Perhaps the speakers used for mastering had rolled-off highs?

[walpurgis]

Perhaps the speakers used for mastering had rolled-off highs?

More likely the engineer had rolled off hearing after years of abuse. :)

[KnuckleDragger]

Mike, if you have a laptop, then you could download REW onto it, https://www.roomeqwizard.com, it is free, then all you need is a simple microphone(possibly) to plug into your laptop.
I wish it was that simple. Unfortunately the instrument of measurement needs to be as "perfect" as possible. A laptop with a mic will not do unfortunately.
The reason is that the mic needs to be high end so that is does not "colour" the input signal. Also the receiving equipment needs to be of studio quality so that it does not "colour" the sound.
I am sure you are aware there are many AtD converters on the market. To get an accurate one costs lots of money.
Indeed to set oneself up with such accurate equipment would probably cost more than his hifi.
I wish I had better news on this front.

[Pharos]

I've been very much of that view also Stephen, and on some forums there is an abundance of wonderful coloured graphs, but I'm suspicious that they are not accurate, and that members have bought not a non specialist 'everyone can do it' culture.

However Alan Shaw did a couple of years ago show measurements with really expensive kit, and also with cheap stuff and the correlation was really good, and he recommended a particular mic. Arthur Khoubessarian gave me a cheap mic but I'm not happy doing it into a PC, knowing just how poorly built they are in comparison with professional measuring equipment, and how flakey Windows is.

[KnuckleDragger]

I've been very much of that view also Stephen, and on some forums there is an abundance of wonderful coloured graphs, but I'm suspicious that they are not accurate, and that members have bought not a non specialist 'everyone can do it' culture.

However Alan Shaw did a couple of years ago show measurements with really expensive kit, and also with cheap stuff and the correlation was really good, and he recommended a particular mic. Arthur Khoubessarian gave me a cheap mic but I'm not happy doing it into a PC, knowing just how poorly built they are in comparison with professional measuring equipment, and how flakey Windows is.

I very much agree. If you cannot fully trust the equipment you have for testing, then don't bother.
I trust my ears, as I feel do most others. It has to sound right to me. I don't really care if it is 100% accurate. For example I'm in my 50s. I am fully aware that my high frequency sensitivity has declined. So if I push up the highs a bit, then that sounds right to me as when I first heard that music in my 20s. As long as you are not introducing a lot of distortion, then music purity is subjective not objective.

[AJSki2fly]

I wish it was that simple. Unfortunately the instrument of measurement needs to be as "perfect" as possible. A laptop with a mic will not do unfortunately.
The reason is that the mic needs to be high end so that is does not "colour" the input signal. Also the receiving equipment needs to be of studio quality so that it does not "colour" the sound.
I am sure you are aware there are many AtD converters on the market. To get an accurate one costs lots of money.
Indeed to set oneself up with such accurate equipment would probably cost more than his hifi.
I wish I had better news on this front.

Actually I was not coming at it purely from an accuracy perspective, more from a reasonably good indicator point of view. You can buy a pretty good and accurate usb microphone for just this purpose for about £50, which will be more than adequate. As for rubbishing PC, Laptops etc being incapable of doing a good job, where on earth do you get this view, one modern computer has enough power to run several Apollo mission simultaneously, in fact programmed correctly you could do it on a mobile phone.

I think if you go into most modern recording studios you will find Laptops/desktops used with recording software to record all types of music and edit it.

I actually used to work at the Wolfson Sound and Vibration laboratory in Southampton university and have setup sound and vibration measurement tests using Bruel and Kjaer equipment, all very expensive and highly accurate, but not absolutely necessary to achieve simple frequency sweeps in a home situation.

I think if you look into it properly a laptop with a reasonable microphone running REW will be at least within 0.5dB of the aforementioned across 20hz- 20khz.


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[Macca]

So true Mike. It makes me wonder what sort of system was used for production.

A very good one. Blaming the recording (unless it is an amateur effort) is going down a dead-end. The problems described are not flaws in the recordings. The room might be playing a part but this is a problem with the replay electronics. Once you introduce distortion there it is going to result in some recordings sounding rough (but probably not on super-polished audiophile recordings which will sound enhanced and 'more real'). It's a common problem which is why you see so many people complaining about recording quality despite the recordings they complain about being made by experienced professionals on hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of equipment.

[Pharos]

I have recently had several examples of my PC producing errors, I don't doubt its capacity, but have more doubt about the resolution of software, it being not thoroughly developed, and soon becoming obsolete.

[Ali Tait]

Actually I was not coming at it purely from an accuracy perspective, more from a reasonably good indicator point of view. You can buy a pretty good and accurate usb microphone for just this purpose for about £50, which will be more than adequate. As for rubbishing PC, Laptops etc being incapable of doing a good job, where on earth do you get this view, one modern computer has enough power to run several Apollo mission simultaneously, in fact programmed correctly you could do it on a mobile phone.

I think if you go into most modern recording studios you will find Laptops/desktops used with recording software to record all types of music and edit it.

I actually used to work at the Wolfson Sound and Vibration laboratory in Southampton university and have setup sound and vibration measurement tests using Bruel and Kjaer equipment, all very expensive and highly accurate, but not absolutely necessary to achieve simple frequency sweeps in a home situation.

I think if you look into it properly a laptop with a reasonable microphone running REW will be at least within 0.5dB of the aforementioned across 20hz- 20khz.


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Agreed. Something like this will work just fine-

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

Maybe not 100% accurate but it won't be far off.

[anthonyTD]

One of these works very well too, and can be picked up quite reasonably on the secondhand market :)

[AJSki2fly]

One of these works very well too, and can be picked up quite reasonably on the secondhand market :)

Like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Behringer-Ultra-Curve-Pro-DSP8024-31-Band-EQ-Equaliser-Digital-24-Bit-Dual-DSP/224064851539?hash=item342b4e4e53:g:7BUAAOSw~CRe~HZ 7 looks like a good price

[anthonyTD]

Exactly! :)
Although i am not sure that model has the room correction facility and of course you need the calibrated mic to go with it too!
Like this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Behringer-Ultra-Curve-Pro-DSP8024-31-Band-EQ-Equaliser-Digital-24-Bit-Dual-DSP/224064851539?hash=item342b4e4e53:g:7BUAAOSw~CRe~HZ 7 looks like a good price

[KnuckleDragger]

As for rubbishing PC, Laptops etc being incapable of doing a good job, where on earth do you get this view,

I do not rubbish PC's or laptops. To accurately measure the input they are receiving a £50 usb mic and a basic laptop will only give a very rough and inaccurate measurement. Not to be trusted. You require extremely accurate and expensive equipment and listening environment to trust the results. You do not find these in a basic PC or laptop. What I point out is that the equipment required will be out of the price range of the average user that is wanting to quiz their few thousand pound system as a one off.


I think if you go into most modern recording studios you will find Laptops/desktops used with recording software to record all types of music and edit it.

Yes, but that is not what we are talking about. We are discussing analyzing a systems response. Not recording material.


I actually used to work at the Wolfson Sound and Vibration laboratory in Southampton university and have setup sound and vibration measurement tests using Bruel and Kjaer equipment, all very expensive and highly accurate, but not absolutely necessary to achieve simple frequency sweeps in a home situation.

I am very pleased for you. However, we are not talking about basic frequency sweeps like you would do for a home theater system.


I think if you look into it properly

Believe me or not as the case may be. I have over the last few decades looked into it properly.


a laptop with a reasonable microphone running REW will be at least within 0.5dB of the aforementioned across 20hz- 20khz.

Again. We are not talking basic frequency sweeps. You will not be able to trust a cheap mic and a basic laptop in a lounge.
What is the problem?
Is it the mic? yes
is it the hardware in the laptop? Yes.
Is it the room. Yes.
And on top of all that they are trying to find the issue with their audio equipment. As I mentioned earlier. It is not that simple as getting some cheap hardware and software to sort out the issue. Good enough for a home theater when realism is not the goal, but immersion is. Not good enough for Hifi though.

[fatmarley]

Does anyone ever read a post and wonder if it's written by a troll?

[AJSki2fly]

Does anyone ever read a post and wonder if it's written by a troll?

The reason I have not bothered responding, all I am interested in is helping Mike in a pragmatic and sensible manner, it seems some others are not. :)

[Macca]

This is a bit unfair as Stephen does make a valid point. All you are going to determine with a mic and a laptop is if there are gross frequency errors in the bass. Useful if you do have problems with bass response, not so much if you don't.

Recording with a microphone is not at all the same as a human listening for a variety of reasons.

[AJSki2fly]

This is a bit unfair as Stephen does make a valid point. All you are going to determine with a mic and a laptop is if there are gross frequency errors in the bass. Useful if you do have problems with bass response, not so much if you don't.

Recording with a microphone is not at all the same as a human listening for a variety of reasons.

Why just the bass(low frequencies)?

I think some people have missed the point all I was suggesting was method of making a frequency sweep from 20Hz-20Khz in Mike's room using his system and looking to see if there was any obvious drop outs, or peaks across the range. REW is more than able to do this. If there were glaring anomalies then Mike could try a variety of things to see if he could improve matters or not, whether this was speaker positioning, seating position, or using some acoustic deadening if necessary. He could even swap speakers and do some direct comparisons to see if that made much difference or not. Having done this myself, in a methodical and logical manner I know it works and can help to identify issues, that is as much as I will say on the subject.

[fatmarley]

Any errors within the results of a cheap, calibrated mic and laptop will be down to the user and not the equipment.

[Ali Tait]

Agreed, I'd have thought them more than adequate for this purpose.

[Pigmy Pony]

Certainly in the context of Mike's system/room, Adrian's suggestions are a cost effective approach, and worth trying out I would have thought.

[Mikeandvan]

I'm now thinking the Audio Note Js tend towards a boxy and constrained sound, somehow something is missing, not a fully fleshed out sound. The treble is also killing my ears, time to try something else me thinks.

[Mikeandvan]

Tried putting El34s in the AN Soro but they didnae fit! Wot is happening?? They are taller than the 6551s in there already. They touch the screw on case of the amp.

[AJSki2fly]

Tried putting El34s in the AN Soro but they didnae fit! Wot is happening?? They are taller than the 6551s in there already. They touch the screw on case of the amp.

Are you sure 6551’s can be changed for EL34’s? I am not familiar with them and cannot find anything about then on the net!

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise?


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[Mikeandvan]

Are you sure 6551’s can be changed for EL34’s? I am not familiar with them and cannot find anything about then on the net!

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can advise?


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Nope! In fact after reading a bit on teh internet I think it needs only 6551s! I'll just leave alone..........

[Bourney]

Mike, that is not my experience with Js, you're so close to AN, I think I'd ask them to give them a check over and I think they calibrate the crossover if there is some drift. Gotta be worth the cost of an hours labour.

[mik_rik]

Are you confusing 6551 with 6550 and 5881.You can sub an EL34 with a 6p3S-E.Sound very good and can take lot of stick.I've used them in my Radford for a good few years without any problems and a lot of guitarists use and recommend them.

[Mikeandvan]

Mike, that is not my experience with Js, you're so close to AN, I think I'd ask them to give them a check over and I think they calibrate the crossover if there is some drift. Gotta be worth the cost of an hours labour.

I contacted them, they swear they'll be fine, or may'be they're not interested in small jobs post lockdown? Might be able to take them somewhere else though.

[Lawrence001]

Mate if they're that out of spec from what you say get someone round to see if they think the same as you. Borrow another valve amp if you can.

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[Mikeandvan]

Mate if they're that out of spec from what you say get someone round to see if they think the same as you. Borrow another valve amp if you can.

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I don't know if they're out of spec, I have 2 valve amps already, s500 with el34s and AN Soro with 6551s.

[Bourney]

Having used that Soro for a long time, I know exactly how it sounds and its none of the things you've described. The Js are old and whilst their condition is excellent, given what you're saying, I'd get them checked. It might be a small crossover adjustment that pulls them together and balances them out.

[AJSki2fly]

Having used that Soro for a long time, I know exactly how it sounds and its none of the things you've described. The Js are old and whilst their condition is excellent, given what you're saying, I'd get them checked. It might be a small crossover adjustment that pulls them together and balances them out.

I agree, I suspect that x over components are old and failing, it has the be as this is the one thing not checked out so far


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[Mikeandvan]

Having used that Soro for a long time, I know exactly how it sounds and its none of the things you've described. The Js are old and whilst their condition is excellent, given what you're saying, I'd get them checked. It might be a small crossover adjustment that pulls them together and balances them out.

Will do, Audionote don't seem to want to know, have to find someone else.

[Bourney]

I'm really suprised, I've always found them so helpful.

[Lawrence001]

Just a thought, I've heard a pair of speakers with low output from the tweeters and quite a high crossover point and they sounded a bit like what you describe, the mids are shouty when you have to crank the volume up, because the detail's missing. Silly question but are the tweeters definitely working?



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[KnuckleDragger]

Does anyone ever read a post and wonder if it's written by a troll?
No I am not a troll, I am doing my best to assist Mike. I am being realistic.

The reason I have not bothered responding, all I am interested in is helping Mike in a pragmatic and sensible manner, it seems some others are not. https://theartofsound.net/images/smilies/smile.gif
As am I. You may not like my reply. I'd rather you answer it rather than you assume that you are correct and deride my reply.

This is a bit unfair as Stephen does make a valid point.
Thanks Martin. I am seriously trying to help.

Here is the point. Not only is Mike trying to get to the bottom of the problem he is having with his system. He does not want to add to the issues with a simple frequency sweep from cheap equipment. For example his amp is now getting on a bit, which is cool if the equipment is maintained. However older resistors, capacitors and valves tend to drift off tolerance after a number of years. This will introduce distortion. As previously stated a frequency sweep from even the most high end test equipment will not point him in the right direction. Mike would require a whole host of test and measurement equipment to isolate the cause.
I would friendly suggest to one or two people in future that when you receive a reply that you do not like ask why rather than dismissing it. To dismiss me as a troll is quite unacceptable.

A quick edit here. I may be new to this forum, however I most certainly am not new to audio.

[AJSki2fly]

No I am not a troll, I am doing my best to assist Mike. I am being realistic.

As am I. You may not like my reply. I'd rather you answer it rather than you assume that you are correct and deride my reply.

Thanks Martin. I am seriously trying to help.

Here is the point. Not only is Mike trying to get to the bottom of the problem he is having with his system. He does not want to add to the issues with a simple frequency sweep from cheap equipment. For example his amp is now getting on a bit, which is cool if the equipment is maintained. However older resistors, capacitors and valves tend to drift off tolerance after a number of years. This will introduce distortion. As previously stated a frequency sweep from even the most high end test equipment will not point him in the right direction. Mike would require a whole host of test and measurement equipment to isolate the cause.
I would friendly suggest to one or two people in future that when you receive a reply that you do not like ask why rather than dismissing it. To dismiss me as a troll is quite unacceptable.

A quick edit here. I may be new to this forum, however I most certainly am not new to audio.

Unfortunately your posting history does not support that. There are 3 posts where you effectively rubbished the AI S500, then you called the thread a waste of time. Hardly what I would call constructive or particularly nice!

Perhaps you could use your experience in audio in a more constructive manner in future!


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[Marco]

No I am not a troll, I am doing my best to assist Mike. I am being realistic.


Does he appreciate your 'assistance' though, that's the point? Mike, perhaps you would clarify? Then we can move forward, as being "realistic" isn't necessarily helpful.


I would friendly suggest to one or two people in future that when you receive a reply that you do not like ask why rather than dismissing it. To dismiss me as a troll is quite unacceptable.

A quick edit here. I may be new to this forum, however I most certainly am not new to audio.

I would "friendly suggest" that you ensure your assistance is welcomed first, before carrying on giving it regardless, otherwise it's simply annoyance, not assistance.

Yes, you are new to this forum. You stated earlier that your intention [B]wasn't to fit in, which didn't seem like the behaviour of someone who genuinely wants to be constructive, so now I'm TELLING you to fit in, and alter how you communicate with people, or you'l simply be removed.

Your choice, amigo: shape up or ship out. End of. This is your last chance.

Marco.

[Mikeandvan]

Does he appreciate your 'assistance' though, that's the point? Mike, perhaps you would clarify? Then we can move forward, as being "realistic" [based on your criteria for such] isn't necessarily helpful.

Marco.

Its all good, with a moniker like Knuckledragger, that acts as a kind of trigger warning, so I just retreat into my safe space........

[Marco]

Yes, but are you finding his assistance in any way helpful? Doesn't sound like it to me, and he's certainly pissing off others.

Marco.

[KnuckleDragger]

Unfortunately your posting history does not support that. There are 3 posts where you effectively rubbished the AI S500
I have never rubbished this amp. I simply stated that it is not high end and that Mike may be asking to much of it. Also bearing in mind what I said about component drift over years that introduces distortion.


then you called the thread a waste of time. Hardly what I would call constructive or particularly nice!
Bearing in mind that the thread was titled " Valve amps, great with Jazz, shit with everything else. (https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70092-Valve-amps-great-with-Jazz-shit-with-everything-else)" Then Mike goes on to say that he does not believe the amp is the issue but rather the room. Then yes, my comment was constructive. If it was friendly or not is of no bearing. My comment was honest.


Perhaps you could use your experience in audio in a more constructive manner in future!
I am being constructive. You have not yet addressed the comment I made concerning distortion introduced by old out of spec components. Frequency sweeps will not fix this. I believe this to be very constructive.


Does he appreciate your 'assistance' though, that's the point?
I am sorry Marco but that is not the point. I may suggest something that someone may not like. However it does not make the suggestion incorrect.


I would "friendly suggest" that you ensure your assistance is welcomed first, before carrying on giving it regardless, otherwise it's simply annoyance, not assistance.
The whole point of starting a thread on a forum is to hear what anyone has to say. Nobody asks if they should be aloud to speak. It is for the person who started the thread to decide who he/she should listen to based on what they say.


You stated earlier that your intention wasn't to fit in, which didn't seem like the behaviour of someone who genuinely wants to be constructive
Incorrect Marco. My intention is not to fit in. My intention is however to give an accurate opinion as possible, if that means I fit in or not.


so now I'm TELLING you to fit in, and alter how you communicate with people, or you'l simply be removed.
Your choice, amigo: shape up or ship out. End of. This is your last chance.
So there we have it. There has been no answers to the legitimate points I raised about the issues Mike is facing with his system. No answer about how to negate distortion induced by aging components. Which, btw I may have been able to help with.
I have spent decades communicating with others in a succinct to the point manner in order to accurately isolate issues.
I have never insulted anyone here. However I have been called a troll with no justification. That is okay though. There is a double standard here.
If you wish to ban me then go ahead.

[Marco]

No, I'm telling you to moderate how you communicate with people, as quite clearly your rather curt and abrupt manner isn't going down well with some, and only an arrogant and insensitive person would continue in the same vein regardless. Also, in the interests of accuracy, you weren't called a troll; the post you're referring to simply posed a question:

"Does anyone ever read a post and wonder if it's written by a troll?" That's quite different. Do recognise yourself in that description, then?

Therefore, it's now up to you to comply with my warning or not (and show your true colours). If not, then I'm sorry, but you're not welcome here. You also don't seem to have grasped that this is a staunchly subjectivist forum, and your rather pro-objectivist stance doesn't sit very well with 'Our Ethos'.

Did you read the following section of the forum before joining (including this rather pertinent post): https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17-The-basics-of-Ethos&p=857999#post857999

If not, you would do well to heed its content, as it's relevant to how you've conducted yourself here so far.

Marco.

[KnuckleDragger]

Many thanks for clarifying Marco.
I am very much objective. I stick to facts not feelings.
As you have clearly stated, this forum is subjective. By definition, about feelings not facts. Therefore there is no way anyone can reach a conclusion here. As you stated it is a subjective forum. Feeling count more than facts.
I really, truly, really do not belong on such a forum.
I should have realized this is a such a place with your comment of :-

Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

Complete and absolute paranoia.
You can ban me should you wish. However I will no longer return unless it is requested. This is clearly not the place to be.
I wish you all well. I hope you sort out your issues Mike. However this being a subjective forum I very much doubt it unfortunately.

[fatmarley]

Many thanks for clarifying Marco.
I am very much objective. I stick to facts not feelings.
As you have clearly stated, this forum is subjective. By definition, about feelings not facts. Therefore there is no way anyone can reach a conclusion here. As you stated it is a subjective forum. Feeling count more than facts.
I really, truly, really do not belong on such a forum.
I should have realized this is a such a place with your comment of :-

Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

Complete and absolute paranoia.
You can ban me should you wish. However I will no longer return unless it is requested. This is clearly not the place to be.
I wish you all well. I hope you sort out your issues Mike. However this being a subjective forum I very much doubt it unfortunately.


I'm part objectivist and also part subjectivist. I build my own speakers, and I've got to be honest and say it didn't take me long to realise it's pretty much impossible to guess how well the phase tracks through the crossover without measurements. But, I also use my ears to fine tune my speakers (using software to guide me, but sometimes using nothing but my ears (only when the software isn't showing me any difference)). I've been in the diy game for years and I'd argue that the best designers use a combination of measurements and ears. Like a lot of things in life, it's finding the right balance (something that can only be learnt through experience IMO).

I've been told off more than once by Marco for my blunt rudeness (objectivist views with no compassion for the subjectivist opinion), and being perfectly honest, he may have had a point (I say "may" because there's no way I'm fully admiting I'm wrong :)). Who want's to admit they're wrong?.

I admire polite forum users and wish I could be a bit more like that. I guess we we should all make a little more effort to be nice... I wise man once said, if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[AJSki2fly]

Exactly Matt, very well put, much the approach I try to take myself. Hifi and audio is very much subjective, IMO as has often been said on AoS we all have different ears, aural experiences and preferences, by definition this means that one persons system that sounds wonderful to them may not to another.

My wife is good case in point, she just doe not care whether it’s my hifi, the tv sound bar or the Apple speaker she listens to. She does hear a difference but the subtleties of differences are lost on her, Sue’s words not mine.

With respect to measurement of sound in rooms and of the output from systems, my experience is that they can be used as a guide to see how something may be performing across the frequency range. I remember at the Wolfson Sound and Vibration Lab spending 3 days in the aneachoic chamber measuring some speakers from a quite well known manufacturer, at their request. We were quite exited because they measured very well. We then put them in our lab system put on some music and they sounded quite uninspiring, flat and dull, we were shocked. One of the sound engineers took them home and tried them, they came back and confirmed the same. It turned out the manufacturer had set out to design a speaker with as flat response as they could which they hoped would be even handed across all frequencies, when they came to get the results and speakers they said we had confirmed their thoughts, they had produced a speaker without character. In contrast the measurements I have taken in my listening room, have often shown highs and lows across the frequency range, some are inherently due to the room and listening room, which I can modify by changing furnishings and/or position, and some are down to the speakers themselves and there design. So where it’s the speaker once position and listening point is optimised for the room then IME it really is down to whether you as and individual like what you hear or not.

So as you say a subjective and pragmatic mix of listening and measurement is my approach.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Many thanks for clarifying Marco.
I am very much objective. I stick to facts not feelings.
As you have clearly stated, this forum is subjective. By definition, about feelings not facts. Therefore there is no way anyone can reach a conclusion here. As you stated it is a subjective forum. Feeling count more than facts.
I really, truly, really do not belong on such a forum.
I should have realized this is a such a place with your comment of :-

Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

Complete and absolute paranoia.
You can ban me should you wish. However I will no longer return unless it is requested. This is clearly not the place to be.
I wish you all well. I hope you sort out your issues Mike. However this being a subjective forum I very much doubt it unfortunately.


The trouble with over use of a objective outlook when discussing hifi , it guides with lovely distraction away, from what is in abundance within music.

Measurements cannot measure what we hear. as example has anyone seen a measurement showing us the ambience of a live recording venue? Yet we easily hear the ambience and location of musicians in good recordings. So is best I think, to certainly use some measurements as a guide, but a subjective outlook is always far more valid.

[AJSki2fly]

The trouble with over use of a objective outlook when discussing hifi , it guides with lovely distraction away, from what is in abundance within music.

Measurements cannot measure what we hear. as example has anyone seen a measurement showing us the ambience of a live recording venue? Yet we easily hear the ambience and location of musicians in good recordings. So is best I think, to certainly use some measurements as a guide, but a subjective outlook is always far more valid.

���� Yes very true

[paulf-2007]

Being interested I had a read of https://www.powerinspired.com/brochures/hi-fi-world-ag1500s-review-sep-2018.pdf and according to them it is actually quite a good product outputting mains distortion of less than 1% under full load, standard mains across the UK is around 3% distortion without and crap added from the house circuit.
Can you explain what is distorting on the mains

[Marco]

Many thanks for clarifying Marco.
I am very much objective. I stick to facts not feelings.
As you have clearly stated, this forum is subjective. By definition, about feelings not facts. Therefore there is no way anyone can reach a conclusion here. As you stated it is a subjective forum. Feeling count more than facts.
I really, truly, really do not belong on such a forum.
I should have realized this is a such a place with your comment of :-

Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

Complete and absolute paranoia.
You can ban me should you wish. However I will no longer return unless it is requested. This is clearly not the place to be.
I wish you all well. I hope you sort out your issues Mike. However this being a subjective forum I very much doubt it unfortunately.


Well, Stephen, firstly if you don't wish to encounter the same issues on another forum that shares similar principles to this one (and there are many), you need to grasp the FACT that a) facts are not necessarily applied by everyone to the same subjects, in the same way, and that actually some of your 'facts' are only opinion, and b) most importantly, regardless of that, when you're communicating with PEOPLE, on ANY platform, online or otherwise, feelings are always going to come into it, as you're interacting with other sentient human beings, not robots.

Secondly, if you don't wish to encounter the same issues elsewhere, you also need to grasp the fact that forums are not your personal playground in which to 'educate' others or show how clever you are, in such an arrogant way as to always consider that you're right, or derive some sort of smug satisfaction from that.

They exist as a platform for sharing information with others with a mutual interest, with a view to helping the assembled COMMUNITY (a concept you don't seem able to grasp) learn in way that THEY (not just you) enjoy and find beneficial. Therefore, when you contribute to a thread that someone has started and proceed to give advice, in a style that isn't appreciated by either the OP or others reading, then the decent thing to do is moderate YOUR behaviour, not insist that everyone else simply accepts 'how you are'.

As I've said, it's about fitting in and respecting the fact that you're a guest on someone else's webspace, rather than considering that you've got a God-given right to do what you like. That is how we insist people here conduct themselves. We want 'team players', not arrogant individuals who are only interested in self gain. You say you're trying to help, but then show little appreciation of how that so called help is received by those concerned.

We do care about facts, and there are many knowledgeable folks here who are quite capable of providing them on many different subjects, but who also possess a certain level of people skills and self-awareness, in order to successfully impart their knowledge in a non-confrontational way, which will be both understood and appreciated by the recipient. You don't just steamroller through discussions, regardless, with a total disregard for the negative impact your advice is having on others.

Lastly, you would do well to remember that audio is largely a subjectivist hobby, thus enjoyed largely by subjectivists, as the vast majority of people are happy to use their ears and other senses to make their decisions, without needing to rely on science. Therefore, the FACT (since you like facts) is that as a staunch objectivist, YOU are in the minority, not us or others like us, and you'll find that out unless you join a forum that caters solely for your type of mindset. Try Hydrogen Audio, for instance: https://hydrogenaud.io/

That said, I won't ban you, as you've done nothing to warrant such action, but quite clearly this isn't the place for you, and I wish you well for the future:cool:

Marco.

[Macca]

Unfortunately your posting history does not support that. There are 3 posts where you effectively rubbished the AI S500, then you called the thread a waste of time. Hardly what I would call constructive or particularly nice!

Perhaps you could use your experience in audio in a more constructive manner in future!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it is someone's subjective opinion that the AI500 is not a good amplifier can they not say so? In my subjective opinion neither of the amplifiers Mike has right now are any good and neither are the speakers. I've already given the advice to sell the lot and start again. It's also my subjective opinion that that's the most constructive advice that has been offered so far. :D

Other's subjective opinion may vary. But that's subjective opinion for you.

[walpurgis]

Is there any middle ground between subjectivity and objectivity? :)

[Macca]

Of course.

[mikeyb]

Snowflakes are out early this year I see, world is turning to shit cos society is too worried about someone’s feelings. I saw nothing wrong in KDs posts

Another member lost by the looks of it, pity really he made some good points.

I don’t think the issue mentioned in the op will ever be resolved unless someone gets in there and has a listen themselves and let’s Mike hear some different amps/valves/speakers. Looking at mikes various posts over several forums it would appear that he’s been hunting for a cure for a while and so far hasn’t heard what’s he’s after, I hit a similar trail over the last few years and it wasn’t until I went from small stand mount PMC speakers to large floor standing tannoys that I realised I’d been looking in the wrong place, I changed amps, sources, cartridges, cables etc and in the end it was the speakers. So I bought the tannoys on a whim in the hope that they were what I was after, they were, lost a fortune selling the PMCs and never looked back.

I too suffered from a bit of sizzle in the treble but it’s my right ear that causes most of that, however it was also worse on my vinyl setup and I was convinced it was the cabling in the Fidelity arm as that was silver, I’d heard a Tisbury passive pre amp that’s was silver wired and it screeched like a Banshee, so I had Phonomac service and rewire the arm with his best non silver cable, guess what sizzle on vinyl gone.

So if I hear a bit of sizzle/screech/brightness or whatever you want to call it I just lightly press on the right ear drum to block some of the sound out and right away I can tell if it’s my ear causing it or if it’s on the recording.

Check out the post on Wigwam regarding a set of Harbeth speakers that are generally touted as being smooth and sublime, guess what, owner is complaining of screeching when pushed, not something you’d associate with Harbeth speakers I’m sure, but it’s been reported before when they are driven hard, so just because a set of speakers sounds great in one system doesn’t mean it’ll sound good in them all.

How many times have you read or been told speakers first then work from there, I’ve heard a set of ANs vs my PMC 21s vs Flugalhorns vs Open Baffle giants and I’ll be honest I thought the ANs we’re about as good as my old speakers I bought from Comet warehouse in the 70s, in other words, shit!

I’d start there.

[walpurgis]

Funny how many serious listeners end up with (proper) Tannoys. They were my choice for fifty years and I heard most other decent makes and even owned a few examples, but always reverted back to the dual concentrics. I have none now.

[Mikeandvan]

If it is someone's subjective opinion that the AI500 is not a good amplifier can they not say so? In my subjective opinion neither of the amplifiers Mike has right now are any good and neither are the speakers. I've already given the advice to sell the lot and start again. It's also my subjective opinion that that's the most constructive advice that has been offered so far. :D

Other's subjective opinion may vary. But that's subjective opinion for you.

I'm sure that tens of thousands of Audio Note/Audio Innovations owners will disagree with you.

[Macca]

I'm sure that tens of thousands of Audio Note/Audio Innovations owners will disagree with you.

I'm sure they would but they're probably somewhere else complaining about poor quality recordings.

[walpurgis]

I'm sure that tens of thousands of Audio Note/Audio Innovations owners will disagree with you.

Are there that many?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Is there any middle ground between subjectivity and objectivity? :)

Yes , and very wise too, if any such middle ground, is using each outlook.

Measurements though IMO cannot approach what we hear, so used in moderation can provide just vague outlines, if vague outline is what might on rare occasion be needed... but to relish just in vague outlines is not a great outlook, when there is that thing we call music ... so subjectivity always comes first ... IMO ... now back to the music.

To explore this a little more , here is a objective view of a piece of music, can anyone tell what instruments are playing ? Does the objectivist even care ? or is the visual treat enough cause for celebration, The objective outlook therefore is just a vague alien experience ... as usual IMO

[Pigmy Pony]

Is there any middle ground between subjectivity and objectivity? :)

I have a coffee table in that space, with a couple of magazines and a brew on it :)

[Mikeandvan]

Snowflakes are out early this year I see, world is turning to shit cos society is too worried about someone’s feelings. I saw nothing wrong in KDs posts

Another member lost by the looks of it, pity really he made some good points.

I don’t think the issue mentioned in the op will ever be resolved unless someone gets in there and has a listen themselves and let’s Mike hear some different amps/valves/speakers. Looking at mikes various posts over several forums it would appear that he’s been hunting for a cure for a while and so far hasn’t heard what’s he’s after, I hit a similar trail over the last few years and it wasn’t until I went from small stand mount PMC speakers to large floor standing tannoys that I realised I’d been looking in the wrong place, I changed amps, sources, cartridges, cables etc and in the end it was the speakers. So I bought the tannoys on a whim in the hope that they were what I was after, they were, lost a fortune selling the PMCs and never looked back.

I too suffered from a bit of sizzle in the treble but it’s my right ear that causes most of that, however it was also worse on my vinyl setup and I was convinced it was the cabling in the Fidelity arm as that was silver, I’d heard a Tisbury passive pre amp that’s was silver wired and it screeched like a Banshee, so I had Phonomac service and rewire the arm with his best non silver cable, guess what sizzle on vinyl gone.

So if I hear a bit of sizzle/screech/brightness or whatever you want to call it I just lightly press on the right ear drum to block some of the sound out and right away I can tell if it’s my ear causing it or if it’s on the recording.

Check out the post on Wigwam regarding a set of Harbeth speakers that are generally touted as being smooth and sublime, guess what, owner is complaining of screeching when pushed, not something you’d associate with Harbeth speakers I’m sure, but it’s been reported before when they are driven hard, so just because a set of speakers sounds great in one system doesn’t mean it’ll sound good in them all.

How many times have you read or been told speakers first then work from there, I’ve heard a set of ANs vs my PMC 21s vs Flugalhorns vs Open Baffle giants and I’ll be honest I thought the ANs we’re about as good as my old speakers I bought from Comet warehouse in the 70s, in other words, shit!

I’d start there.

Yes exactly, been through, Naim, Quad, a Roksan integrated that lasted a day cos it blew up, the renowned JVC AX 1010 monster. Various speakers too, Epos, Naim, Ruark,all had the same issues. Almost bought a pair of Tannoys a few weeks back, the legacy series, standmounts, the Eatons. But they were £3K, and I didn't wanna buy them and be disappointed again, as I did read over on Fainting ladies PFM that one or two users found them bright, with one even saying the modulator thing on the front made little difference.

[Mikeandvan]

Are there that many?

There must be, old and new users, 100s of 1000s even.

[Pharos]

We can respect each others' feelings without that correlating with us being weak, and I di not feel that KD's posts were offensive.

I too have problems in my right ear, the speakers seeming to screech, but they are praised in the main for their top end, and I know that I have top loss with hyperacusis.

[Pigmy Pony]

Yes exactly, been through, Naim, Quad, a Roksan integrated that lasted a day cos it blew up, the renowned JVC AX 1010 monster. Various speakers too, Epos, Naim, Ruark,all had the same issues. Almost bought a pair of Tannoys a few weeks back, the legacy series, standmounts, the Eatons. But they were £3K, and I didn't wanna buy them and be disappointed again, as I did read over on Fainting ladies PFM that one or two users found them bright, with one even saying the modulator thing on the front made little difference.

:eek: That is some list Mike! Based on all of that, may I suggest that your room is just a right pig acoustically. If you are a renter, it might be easier to move to a gaff more 'music friendly'! :) Even if your rent goes up it still may work out cheaper than all that box swapping...

[Mikeandvan]

I find myself in a well of audio despair, but none of this matters, because DES O'CONNER IS DEAD.

[mikeyb]

Yes exactly, been through, Naim, Quad, a Roksan integrated that lasted a day cos it blew up, the renowned JVC AX 1010 monster. Various speakers too, Epos, Naim, Ruark,all had the same issues. Almost bought a pair of Tannoys a few weeks back, the legacy series, standmounts, the Eatons. But they were £3K, and I didn't wanna buy them and be disappointed again, as I did read over on Fainting ladies PFM that one or two users found them bright, with one even saying the modulator thing on the front made little difference.

It's difficult that's for sure, hard to try at home and even harder these days.

Really what we need is a van man with a stack of amps and speakers in the back going around helping the bewildered [emoji23]

[Macca]

It's all about combinations though, not individual components. An amp might sound poor with some speakers and good with others. Add the source and the speaker cables and even the interconnects to the equation and you have many different permutations. A methodical approach is required and yes, it may mean trying a lot of different pieces of equipment and combinations thereof before you hit the jackpot.

As you work through all the combinations though you can start to get an idea of where to go and what will work with what.

It took me 30 years of box-swapping to get there, and then two of the components failed shortly thereafter. It took 30 years because I didn't know then what I know now so used the same scattergun approach you are currently.



If you were closer to me I'd come over with a van-load of speakers, amps, cables and we could spend a day working through all the various permutations to see if we could get something that worked, or at least an idea of what was wrong. But you are too far away.

[Macca]

I find myself in a well of audio despair, but none of this matters, because DES O'CONNER IS DEAD.

I thought he died years ago but that could have been Val Doonican. I always got them mixed up.

[enrae8]

as I did read over on Fainting ladies PFM.

Class

[enrae8]

I find myself in a well of audio despair, but none of this matters, because DES O'CONNER IS DEAD.

It puts it all into perspective

[mikeyb]

It's all about combinations though, not individual components. An amp might sound poor with some speakers and good with others. Add the source and the speaker cables and even the interconnects to the equation and you have many different permutations. A methodical approach is required and yes, it may mean trying a lot of different pieces of equipment and combinations thereof before you hit the jackpot.

As you work through all the combinations though you can start to get an idea of where to go and what will work with what.

It took me 30 years of box-swapping to get there, and then two of the components failed shortly thereafter. It took 30 years because I didn't know then what I know now so used the same scattergun approach you are currently.



If you were closer to me I'd come over with a van-load of speakers, amps, cables and we could spend a day working through all the various permutations to see if we could get something that worked, or at least an idea of what was wrong. But you are too far away.I was exactly the same, took me about 6 years and £1000s lost to get to where my system is now.

If only I'd bought my Tannoys earlier!

Thing is I always knew what I wanted but took a lot of persuasion and tears from me to convince my wife that the Tannoys were the ones, once bought she loved them doh!

It was her that picked the little PMCs, they were very good but didn't rock like the 15" drivers in the Tannoys, but then again why would they with 5.5" drivers.

[Macca]

I was exactly the same, took me about 6 years and £1000s lost to get to where my system is now.

If only I'd bought my Tannoys earlier!

Thing is I always knew what I wanted but took a lot of persuasion and tears from me to convince my wife that the Tannoys were the ones, once bought she loved them doh!

It was her that picked the little PMCs, they were very good but didn't rock like the 15" drivers in the Tannoys, but then again why would they with 5.5" drivers.

Over ten years I spent about ten grand, still have a lot of the equipment I bought. Was only in the last couple of years I started to get close to what I wanted. Once that happened though the way ahead became more obvious. This isn't an easy hobby! I see a few people who go out and buy an amp and speakers and they are well happy right from the off, Bastards! But in general if you look round the forums almost everyone else has gone through a ton of kit looking for satisfaction. It's just the way it is.

I don't like those little PMCs either btw but their big studio jobs are killer good.

[mikeyb]

Over ten years I spent about ten grand, still have a lot of the equipment I bought. Was only in the last couple of years I started to get close to what I wanted. Once that happened though the way ahead became more obvious. This isn't an easy hobby! I see a few people who go out and buy an amp and speakers and they are well happy right from the off, Bastards! But in general if you look round the forums almost everyone else has gone through a ton of kit looking for satisfaction. It's just the way it is.

I don't like those little PMCs either btw but their big studio jobs are killer good.I feel your pain, I've had it too, to be fair the PMCs were excellent and all that heard them liked them too, just didn't do it for me on rock and electronic music.

[Pigmy Pony]

If you were closer to me I'd come over with a van-load of speakers, amps, cables and we could spend a day working through all the various permutations to see if we could get something that worked, or at least an idea of what was wrong. But you are too far away.

Another reason for Mike to move house. His set up might sound better in Stoke anyway.

Maybe when the Covid-crap is over you can bless me with your consultancy service Martin. I live a lot nearer, and I can provide the van :)

[walpurgis]

Another reason for Mike to move house. His set up might sound better in Stoke anyway.

I believe acoustics are better in Stoke. Something to do with atmospheric density and the all year round dampness. :D

[Pigmy Pony]

I find myself in a well of audio despair, but none of this matters, because DES O'CONNER IS DEAD.

Des is dead? :eek: As if this Christmas wasn't already going to be crap :( At least we still have Michael Buble.

[walpurgis]

At least we still have Michael Buble.

And don't forget Aled Jones, who I gather is teaming up with Brian Blessed for a Xmas Special. (Scary thought! :eek:)

[Macca]

Another reason for Mike to move house. His set up might sound better in Stoke anyway.

Maybe when the Covid-crap is over you can bless me with your consultancy service Martin. I live a lot nearer, and I can provide the van :)

If you like :) You can do all the loading and unloading :D

[Mikeandvan]

Des is dead? :eek: As if this Christmas wasn't already going to be crap :( At least we still have Michael Buble.

elbum leahcim elbum leahcim elbum leahcim

Luckily I live right next to a church, off to get some holy water.

[tapid]

Another reason for Mike to move house. His set up might sound better in Stoke anyway.

Maybe when the Covid-crap is over you can bless me with your consultancy service Martin. I live a lot nearer, and I can provide the van :)

Yeah, and also where s all these speakers, amps, and cables he s gonna bring over coming from? won the pools or something :lol:
Nice offer though :)

[walpurgis]

Yeah, and also where s all these speakers, amps, and cables he s gonna bring over coming from? won the pools or something :lol:
Nice offer though :)

He may have a scheme organised with Audio Al. :)

(Where is Al? Not seen him for a while, hope he's OK)

[Mikeandvan]

I'm tempted by these Tannoys now, but I don't want to buy them and then come back on here moanin'.........

[walpurgis]

I'm tempted by these Tannoys now, but I don't want to buy them and then come back on here moanin'.........

Then be very selective, should you want some. They don't all get it right, in fact most don't.

[anthonyTD]

Air density/presure does play its part in what we hear from day to day, i found that using a de-humidifier in my listening space helps in maintaining some consistency.:)

[tapid]

He may have a scheme organised with Audio Al. :)

(Where is Al? Not seen him for a while, hope he's OK)

He is appearing elsewhere it seems... if you know what I mean. Gone to the other side one might say

[Macca]

Yeah, and also where s all these speakers, amps, and cables he s gonna bring over coming from? won the pools or something :lol:


My living room mostly although there are some shelves full and various piles of kit in the front bedrooom too. The cable collection also got way out of hand a long time ago.

[tapid]

My living room mostly although there are some shelves full and various piles of kit in the front bedrooom too. The cable collection also got way out of hand a long time ago.

Oh so now its coming out ! you gonna ditch all the rejected stuff on him :lol: .... joke

[Macca]

Oh so now its coming out ! you gonna ditch all the rejected stuff on him :lol: .... joke

Shush!

[AJSki2fly]

If it is someone's subjective opinion that the AI500 is not a good amplifier can they not say so? In my subjective opinion neither of the amplifiers Mike has right now are any good and neither are the speakers. I've already given the advice to sell the lot and start again. It's also my subjective opinion that that's the most constructive advice that has been offered so far. :D

Other's subjective opinion may vary. But that's subjective opinion for you.

Hi Martin, have you owned an S500 or listened to one for any period of time? If you have then maybe your view is a bit more than purely subjective. :D

My view on the AI S500 comes from owning two of them for 15+ years and use with 3 different pairs of speakers. I agree with some points raised that an AI S500 is not a perfect high end tube amplifier, whatever that may mean, but it does not mean it it not very good, it does produce a very musical and sonically good rendition IMO(subjective or otherwise) and is quite neutral, for want of a better description.

My personal experience with HiFi, certainly in the last 5 years has been that a major obstacle to get a good "sound" which you like as an individual is primarily down to the speakers, the room placement and the room itself. I learnt this the hard way going through 6 different pairs, and 5 amplifiers(one lent to me) ranging in cost new from £500 to £8K, three SS and two valve, until I came to realise that ultimately the item on the end of them, the speakers and how it interacted with the room had the biggest impact. Yes it is definitely true that if you put a very inefficient speaker on a low powered amplifier with a poor damping capability then you are at risk of getting distortion, especially as higher listening levels are used.

During this 5 year experience trying to resolve how my system sounded and get a more balanced sound, in my "subjective" hearing view, I also swapped out 3 very good amplifiers. Initially I started with a Meridian 557 power amp, and to be absolutely honest I now believe I could have easily stayed with it and would have just as good an experience using it with my current speakers as I do with the far more expensive Allnic amp. I had a pair of very nice 300B mono blocks, which actually were as easily as good as the Allnic, but these I moved on for other reasons. The Vincent SS amp lent to me by a very good friend taught me the lesson once and for all, I was totally shocked that it easily performed as well as my other amps and I could have actually purchase it for £1K used, to late I had already done a deal for the new Allnic amp.:doh: Not that I regret the Alllnic it is lovely sonically but was it true VFM, no not really.

So my subjective point is this, Mike has spent good money getting the AI S500 amp checked over and fettled to a good level I believe, he has now replaced all the valves with Golden Lions, recommended by many for it, including the manufacture, so it is probably as good as it gets. Based on my personal previous experience the amp should produce a good result with a reasonably efficient loudspeaker, the AN Js are just that, I used Snell Js, KEF ref model 3.2's and Dali Ikon 6's all to good effect, none of which sounded harsh, and all could be driven very loud without distortion by the S500. So taking a subjective and somewhat objective view it is most likely to be an issue with the speakers, the room, or Mike's hearing or perhaps a combination of those.

I have thought long and hard about this and personally I think there are several approaches that could and should be taken if possible, before spending more hard earn dosh.

1. It might be very worthwhile for another audiophile who can take a sensible and helpful approach to go to Mike's and listen to his system. Not to criticise but to listen subjectively and objectively to determine if they confer with Mike's view, if they confer then to explore what the cause of the issue is.

2. If at all possible for the person above to take one or more known good speakers for example Tannoys, JBL's, KEF and to try them out for Mike to hear if there is any improvement or not, as far as he is concerned.

3. If 2 fails then if possible swap out the amplifier and initially try with the AN J's, then other available speakers. Once again I would suggest a known good amplifier(s) that are not overtly expensive but perform well, I am sure that their are many to choose from, SS design(s) might give the biggest choice to consider.

Hopefully at the end of the above Mike would have a very good idea of how to get to where he wants to be with his hifi system sonically, and without going through too much pain and expense of equipment swapping.

If I lived nearer to Mike and had some suitable equipment to try I would offer to go and be of assistance (covid rules allowing), unfortunately I can only offer my ears, using my gear would be a bit unrealistic I think.

[tapid]

Shush!

:lol: