View Full Version : Caiman passive output mod revealed
The files are actually 24/192.
The red book CD is very poor in comparison.
I don't have either, just an unloved LP, but the original CD mastering may have been sh*te for all we know. Any attempt at "remastering" would hopefully have re-set the levels, eq and maybe a bit of sonic "seasoning" to make the old analogue master sound more "impressive." Look what was done to the Beatles masters to get the current sound - what we hear is certainly not a "flat" transfer, judging by what I've read on various interviews - Audiophools would be speechless in horror......
Canetoad
01-10-2010, 17:17
Well, I've put the 1.6uF Clarity Caps into my Caiman to replace the Tirna supplies Rubycons and the sound is a lot better. Bass punch is still apparent but tighter. Treble is so much smoother with these caps. They really sound good!
I've turned up the volume and listening at higher levels is a lot less fatiguing than it used to be with the Rubycons. The extra clarity is still there and there's real punch to the music. Honestly, this is the best I've heard music through my system. Hopefully they'll improve even more over the next few days. :stalks:
One thing I do miss with this mod is the use of the headphone output. Once I have one of Stan's new output boards I'll be fitting these caps and installing it. :)
Covenant
01-10-2010, 17:48
Well, I've put the 1.6uF Clarity Caps into my Caiman to replace the Tirna supplies Rubycons and the sound is a lot better. Bass punch is still apparent but tighter. Treble is so much smoother with these caps. They really sound good!
I've turned up the volume and listening at higher levels is a lot less fatiguing than it used to be with the Rubycons. The extra clarity is still there and there's real punch to the music. Honestly, this is the best I've heard music through my system. Hopefully they'll improve even more over the next few days. :stalks:
One thing I do miss with this mod is the use of the headphone output. Once I have one of Stan's new output boards I'll be fitting these caps and installing it. :)
Bernie, just be careful with the value of the capacitors. According to Stan the discrete board uses 47uf caps and I think you will be shocked when you see how much Clarity Caps are..........
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 18:03
It may be that Stan has used that value as that is what he suggested initially,that value allowing use with pretty much any piece of kit.47uF CC's wouldn't fit inside the Beresford case anyway.
Bernie, since you're in the same town,if you fancy listening to some choons and a few beers sometime,let me know!
I wish you the very best of luck - you might need it.
OTOH if you're following a step by step instal guide from the Slim forum then it might just work.
I'm keeping my fingers and all idle apendages crossed for you mate.:eyebrows:
ditto! :)
Ha! cheers mate.Yes I have the wiki downloaded.Some of it might as well be in Swahili though! Still,nothing ventured,nothing gained...
I can always ask Nick to sort out the mess afterwards. :lol:
Anyone live near me with linux knowledge?
haven't the foggiest....I'm an old DOS'ser turned windows guy
TopBalcony
01-10-2010, 18:27
The Caiman/7520 sounds so much better with the passive mod...a couple of questions...can other cdps/dacs benefit from this, and if so, why don't other manufacturers do this? Well, I did promise some daft questions when I joined !
The Caiman/7520 sounds so much better with the passive mod...a couple of questions...can other cdps/dacs benefit from this, and if so, why don't other manufacturers do this? Well, I did promise some daft questions when I joined !
I have done this to 3 Dacs now. In my 3 I have just wired direct from the analogue out pins of the Dac chip. I also add some small value caps (2.2uf - 4.7uf) and if neccessary for impedance matching, a resistor on each channel tied to ground (by the way I was criticised on here for impedance matching to the pre-amp in this way. can't remember why now) It works for me ok.
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 18:48
ditto! :)
Cheers mate!
Glad to see others are trying out different caps :) I'm still finding the bass from the 10uf MKP2000 to be lacking, its warm sounding but light, gives a hint of being glazed over.
I gave a pair of well run in 1uf Multicap RTX's a try, those seemed quite promising after a warm up, very detailed with a hint of warmth, quite fast sounding but can lack body
I also have some 2.2uf copper Obligato's to try as well as some 2uf PIO Obligato's
The film caps are obviously a better cap than the electrolytics although funny thing is the films also have different signatures, you just got to try as many as you can guys until you find your preferred flavour :eyebrows: I'm still on the hunt for the cap which adds least amount of flavour so if anybody has any idea's let us know :)
Reid Malenfant
01-10-2010, 19:12
This may be a daft question, but has anyone considered paralleling a film & electrolytic to attempt to get the best of both worlds?
Common thing in PSUs ;)
This may be a daft question, but has anyone considered paralleling a film & electrolytic to attempt to get the best of both worlds?
Common thing in PSUs ;)
Not so common in coupling positions but a cheapish (eg clarity or obliggato) film with a silver mica bypass or teflon bypass could be really worth trying.
Ali Tait
01-10-2010, 19:18
Glad to see others are trying out different caps :) I'm still finding the bass from the 10uf MKP2000 to be lacking, its warm sounding but light, gives a hint of being glazed over.
I gave a pair of well run in 1uf Multicap RTX's a try, those seemed quite promising after a warm up, very detailed with a hint of warmth, quite fast sounding but can lack body
I also have some 2.2uf copper Obligato's to try as well as some 2uf PIO Obligato's
The film caps are obviously a better cap than the electrolytics although funny thing is the films also have different signatures, you just got to try as many as you can guys until you find your preferred flavour :eyebrows: I'm still on the hunt for the cap which adds least amount of flavour so if anybody has any idea's let us know :)
SCR teflons! Buut,they are not cheap...
Reid Malenfant
01-10-2010, 19:32
Not so common in coupling positions but a cheapish (eg clarity or obliggato) film with a silver mica bypass or teflon bypass could be really worth trying.
Agreed, though it's more often done on single rail amplifier outputs that need the DC isolation.
It just occured to me as some members mentioned a difference in the bass end that they felt a little lacking.
Perhaps someone might try it some time & report back what the hear :)
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 20:09
.can other cdps/dacs benefit from this, and if so, why don't other manufacturers do this?
It won't work in every design. As to why others don't do it? Well I like to experiment beyond the theory and established convention. History tells us that British engineers are good at that;).
RoboCopper
01-10-2010, 21:43
It's explained here: http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php
Thank you Mark.
Thank you Clive.
So many things to read, calculate, listen and learn :)
Agreed, though it's more often done on single rail amplifier outputs that need the DC isolation.
It just occured to me as some members mentioned a difference in the bass end that they felt a little lacking.
Perhaps someone might try it some time & report back what the hear :)
It's worth trying, synergy is sometimes hard to predict!
ClarityCaps: was just watching James Taylor & Carole King in concert on BBC4 and the sound was superb, a real sense of you-are-there with audience noise and realistic instruments. These caps are coming on strong now.
I also have a question regarding the passive mod. If I remove the opamp board and put the capacitors in, does this make both variable and fixed output passive or just only the variable one??
Any hints regarding this?
StanleyB
01-10-2010, 22:58
Both would be passive of course. You would have removed the amplification stage after all ;).
As Stan says :)
BTW gr0001 , can you please pop into the welcome section of the forum before the site owners get you ;)
Afternoon all, sorry I missed out on the threads on upscaling etc, since I asked the question. However, some very good replies in there. I do agree that if it was recorded in 16 bit you can't magic 2 to the 8 extra voltages levels from it, but listening to the Genesis remasters, it does help if things are remastered for the CD format and not so heretical if it is a band member that does it! From this and some of the Creedance Clearwater remasters, seems that there is still a lot of life left in the 16 bit formate.
Cheers Andy
ClarityCaps: was just watching James Taylor & Carole King in concert on BBC4 and the sound was superb, a real sense of you-are-there with audience noise and realistic instruments. These caps are coming on strong now.
That's a very encouraging report Martin!
I have now put in the 2.2uF 200V AuriCaps this morning, and they're sounding mighty impressive already. Bass is superb - tight and extended. The best I've yet heard from a film cap. Fabulous midrange, too.
I'm getting fed up with the 5-way socket and will be looking to remove it and solder my favourite caps in place soon. ClarityCaps or AuriCaps? Hmm.
I'm getting fed up with the 5-way socket and will be looking to remove it and solder my favourite caps in place soon. ClarityCaps or AuriCaps? Hmm.
...or that third (or fourth) film cap that someone else tries and your curious about?;)
From the spec sheet on the 2.2 Auricap, the diameter looks similar to the Clarity Cap and it looks as though it'll fit inside the Dac case ok?
Any problems here Martin?
Ta.
StanleyB
03-10-2010, 08:40
I have been trying THIS ONE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10UF-160V-DC-CAPACITOR-/360012654775?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item53d26d28b7)
I might buy a few more before he runs out ;).
Stan, you're going to have to do a Gator model both with the discrete line stage and with the passive output too on the second set of output sockets.
As an aside, WHY did Sony/Philips settle on a 2V output? I mean, with a passive style of output level, this is about the same as vintage tuners and tape decks.......
Stratmangler
03-10-2010, 09:40
As an aside, WHY did Sony/Philips settle on a 2V output? I mean, with a passive style of output level, this is about the same as vintage tuners and tape decks.......
Higher voltage = higher output = more apparent detail in the music.
It's the reason why you have to be so fastidious about level matching when comparing source A with source B - the louder source will always seem to have greater detail retrieval.
...or that third (or fourth) film cap that someone else tries and your curious about?
Nope, I'll know when I've researched enough and am satisfied. It's been a fun experiment, but I want to close the Caiman up and leave it be.
From the spec sheet on the 2.2 Auricap, the diameter looks similar to the Clarity Cap and it looks as though it'll fit inside the Dac case ok? Any problems here Martin?
Actually they're smaller than the ClarityCaps (23 x 20mm) and fit in easily, especially as they have longer leads. I did have to prune the ends, though, to fit in that damned socket. When I remove the socket I should be able to solder my cap choice in without problems. If I have to slightly open up the PCB holes, I'll destroy the through-hole plating and will have to be careful to solder them both sided.
StanleyB
03-10-2010, 10:09
Stan, you're going to have to do a Gator model both with the discrete line stage and with the passive output too on the second set of output sockets.
The idea is that those who need a 2V output with the passive mod performance would be interested in the Caiman. If only the passive mod is required then forking out for the Gator would not be financially sound.
I have been trying THIS ONE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10UF-160V-DC-CAPACITOR-/360012654775?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item53d26d28b7)
I might buy a few more before he runs out ;).
Is this a film cap Stan?
Sounds good huh?
StanleyB
03-10-2010, 10:15
Looks like polyester to me, looking at the yellow colour. It's rare to get them in 10uF size at this price. Worth a punt.
Actually they're smaller than the ClarityCaps (23 x 20mm) and fit in easily, especially as they have longer leads. I did have to prune the ends, though, to fit in that damned socket. When I remove the socket I should be able to solder my cap choice in without problems. If I have to slightly open up the PCB holes, I'll destroy the through-hole plating and will have to be careful to solder them both sided.
Martin, the problem with loosing the plating holes is a bit taxing, theres not a lot of track to solder too if it all goes.
Cheers Andy
Martin, the problem with loosing the plating holes is a bit taxing, theres not a lot of track to solder too if it all goes.
I'll take a look at it later, Andy. The alternative would be to solder some thinner wire to the ends of the cap cables and then solder those into the PCB, or to thin out the cap cables (stranded) and solder only half in. I think I prefer the latter.
Looks like polyester to me, looking at the yellow colour. It's rare to get them in 10uF size at this price. Worth a punt.
Certainly worth trying, the only other compact films I've seen are these http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2-XL-10-50-10/?qs=QkNLLRillGkm8IK5PCzWaA==
StanleyB
03-10-2010, 12:26
I wouldn't call the one on eBay compact;). But thanks for that Mouser info. I saw a couple of genuine compact ones worth trying.
Looks like polyester to me, looking at the yellow colour. It's rare to get them in 10uF size at this price. Worth a punt.
Thanks Stan, ordered two, worth a punt as you say.
(I see someone else has bought 16....hmnnn :))
Thanks Stan, ordered two, worth a punt as you say.
Me too...! :)
The AuriCaps won the day. I've now soldered in the 2.2uF 200V AuriCaps in place of the 5-way socket. I did it this way as I wanted to retain the protection of the muting relay. I took care to have the signal input flow into the black leads and output from the red leads, as advised in the Audience application notes.
The PCB holes had to be opened up and I did this with a needle file as I didn't have the correct diameter drill. No worries about through-hole plating as this (front) PCB is single-sided. the caps are held lightly in place with small foam sticky pads to prevent them from vibrating.
The AuriCaps sound fantastic: highly transparent, deep and tight bass, wide soundstage. I am well pleased with my Caiman and use it every day with Sky HD and Blu-ray inputs. I don't intend opening it up again for a long time :)
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8489/8223572048_51e9052a61_b.jpg
StanleyB
03-10-2010, 19:18
I don't intend opening it up again for a long time
Aren't you going to try the wire link instead of the resistor behind the 5V murata reg then?
Looks very nice indeed Martin. Just found out that Plinius use AuriCaps in their Amplifiers and I am very happy with mine. Looks like an order tomorrow will be required to do the same comparison.
Cheers Andy
Aren't you going to try the wire link instead of the resistor behind the 5V murata reg then?
Already done! My regs are Dexa, by the way.
The AuriCaps won the day. I've now soldered in the 2.2uF 200V AuriCaps in place of the 5-way socket. I did it this way as I wanted to retain the protection of the muting relay. I took care to have the signal input flow into the black leads and output from the red leads, as advised in the Audience application notes.
The PCB holes had to be opened up and I did this with a needle file as I didn't have the correct diameter drill. No worries about through-hole plating as this (front) PCB is single-sided. the caps are held lightly in place with small foam sticky pads to prevent them from vibrating.
The AuriCaps sound fantastic: highly transparent, deep and tight bass, wide soundstage. I am well pleased with my Caiman and use it every day with Sky HD and Blu-ray inputs. I don't intend opening it up again for a long time :)
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Caiman AuriCap.jpg
Fantastic reference pic. Martin...especially with regards to placing the red and the black wire from the Caps, that one had me wondering.
Looking good.
The wire from the caps, was it stranded as you said? I'd like to try these with the five hole socket at first...and wonder about the guage of the wire.?
Ta.
Ali Tait
03-10-2010, 20:52
Doesn't matter which way round they go mate.
Ali - according to Audience (maker of AuriCaps), it does matter. I followed their guideline of black-in and red-out.
Gaz - the wires are stranded and thick. You will either have to thin them down and poke a few strands in or solder thinner wires to them.
Ali Tait
03-10-2010, 21:23
Yes some manufacturers seem to say that.Never heard any difference myself.
Sometimes rolled caps have the outer foil connected to one of the leads so running them a certain direction can have a small effect, I think its running the foil end to the lowest voltage potential is usually the preferred way.
I got a couple of Auricaps, not tried them yet in the Caiman
Nice job BTW Martin
Probably a question for Stan or Leo;
If you do not use the USB input on the Caiman, would there be anything to gain (thinking of noise back through the earth side) of removing the USB board? I am guessing not, but no one seems to have asked.
Cheers Andy
Canetoad
04-10-2010, 10:03
I'd be interested in knowing how much better the Auricaps sound compared with the ClarityCaps before buying a couple. I'm wondering if it's worth the effort?
I'd be interested in knowing how much better the Auricaps sound compared with the ClarityCaps before buying a couple. I'm wondering if it's worth the effort?
There's only one way to find out :)
Seriously, it's no good taking my word for it. The ClarityCaps are excellent, the AuriCaps only just pip them - but that's in my system with my (47k input) preamp. Your findings may be different. The AuriCaps are about £12 each so worth taking a punt if you can stand the outlay.
Probably a question for Stan or Leo;
If you do not use the USB input on the Caiman, would there be anything to gain (thinking of noise back through the earth side) of removing the USB board? I am guessing not, but no one seems to have asked.
Cheers Andy
Hmnn, good question...?
Oh...I noticed Hificollective have the 1UF ClarityCaps back in stock.
HighFidelityGuy
04-10-2010, 11:07
Probably a question for Stan or Leo;
If you do not use the USB input on the Caiman, would there be anything to gain (thinking of noise back through the earth side) of removing the USB board? I am guessing not, but no one seems to have asked.
Cheers Andy
From the looks of it the USB board is powered by the computer, so I doubt it will cause any interference if it's not connected to a computer. That's what I'd put my money on anyway. Saying that I've removed my USB board as I'm planning on swapping it for a toslink socket. The Caiman+ wasn't available when I bought my Caiman. :doh:
The AuriCaps won the day. I've now soldered in the 2.2uF 200V AuriCaps in place of the 5-way socket. I did it this way as I wanted to retain the protection of the muting relay. I took care to have the signal input flow into the black leads and output from the red leads, as advised in the Audience application notes.
The PCB holes had to be opened up and I did this with a needle file as I didn't have the correct diameter drill. No worries about through-hole plating as this (front) PCB is single-sided. the caps are held lightly in place with small foam sticky pads to prevent them from vibrating.
The AuriCaps sound fantastic: highly transparent, deep and tight bass, wide soundstage. I am well pleased with my Caiman and use it every day with Sky HD and Blu-ray inputs. I don't intend opening it up again for a long time :)
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Caiman AuriCap.jpg
Something Martin included in his 'final';) iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music? I am pretty sure that's not the case but I'm wondering if Stan's very first post might be the best way to do the passive mode, taking the output from as close to the DAC as possible, via the coupling capacitors straight into the output pin of the RCAs. Using Auri's or Clarity caps will make this quite straight forward.
Like a Dornier pilot over London, I await to be shot down :doh:
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 09:05
I would also like to read short description/review of the sound difference between Clarity ESA and Auricap, please?
Now I am perplexed which one should I go for? :scratch:
Thank you
I would also like to read short description/review of the sound difference between Clarity ESA and Auricap, please?
Now I am perplexed which one should I go for? :scratch:
Thank you
Didn't Martin say the Auricap "pipped" the Clarity ESA? :scratch:
The Auricaps more than twice the price, so if the ESA gets close and its good (and by all accounts its great) then either one would be a safe bet?
Is it twice as good as the ESA though? ;)
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 09:48
Didn't Martin say the Auricap "pipped" the Clarity ESA? :scratch:
The Auricaps more than twice the price, so if the ESA gets close and its good (and by all accounts its great) then either one would be a safe bet?
Is it twice as good as the ESA though? ;)
Yes, I did read and I did check in the web thesaurus and dictionary, but English is not my first language, hence I wanted to read more detailed review which I could understand easily.
Even checking in dictionary word "pipped" does not do much for me as I never heard/used it although I made a conclusion that Auricap won big time.
Even if I have read all the books from Shakespeare or was Ali G brother :), I think I would prefer more "audiophile" approach in comparison of both caps as I used to reading those typical reviews.
Only wanted two sentences :) e.g.(highs are extended and sweeter, bass is more defined and tighter, 3d stage is bigger, mids are more real and "magical"). This could be all correct in fact, so no comparison needed :)
Hope you understand. I was just about to order Clarity ESA ,then I read new post about Auricap which I think I will order.:)
Thank you:help:
These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!
The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.
The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.
Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!
Yes, I did read and I did check in the web thesaurus and dictionary, but English is not my first language, hence I wanted to read more detailed review which I could understand easily.
Even checking in dictionary word "pipped" does not do much for me as I never heard/used it although I made a conclusion that Auricap won big time.
Even if I have read all the books from Shakespeare or was Ali G brother :), I think I would prefer more "audiophile" approach in comparison of both caps as I used to reading those typical reviews.
Only wanted two sentences :) e.g.(highs are extended and sweeter, bass is more defined and tighter, 3d stage is bigger, mids are more real and "magical"). This could be all correct in fact, so no comparison needed :)
Hope you understand. I was just about to order Clarity ESA ,then I read new post about Auricap which I think I will order.:)
Thank you:help:
hey Roberto, :)
Martins your man for the review then, for me though the fact he picked the Auricap over the ESA would suggest he preferred it.
You might not though, depending on your system and your tastes....and thats the problem innit! :)
Booyakasha!
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 10:05
Thanks Martin,
I have a feeling that I will order both caps :) ,as sometimes I do feel need for lighter bass.
:champagne: 4u
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 10:08
hey Roberto, :)
Martins your man for the review then, for me though the fact he picked the Auricap over the ESA would suggest he preferred it.
You might not though, depending on your system and your tastes....and thats the problem innit! :)
Booyakasha!
Peace brother :) :rave:
Hi
You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors
http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0
Hi 'u070125',
Welcome to AOS :)
Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographic location, system details and music tastes, as this is the requirement for all new members joining AOS.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Hi
You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors
http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0
Great links! :)
the first one doesnt work though?
Hi
Ive updated the first link. I hope it works ok
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Hi
Ive updated the first link. I hope it works ok
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Wha-hey!
Great first post by the way :cool:
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 12:54
These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!
The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.
The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.
Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!
Martin,
Thanks for this, but the little :scratch: one in me can not resist but to ask you if you have compared your Ayre C-5xe MP universal player with Caiman in passive mode with Auricaps?
I remember that Ayre was better against Clarity caps, but is the difference smaller now?
Thanks
squeezethatbuffalo
05-10-2010, 13:28
Hi
You might want to try the following that have reviewed various capacitors
http://http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0
Another good read:
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm#A
RoboCopper
05-10-2010, 13:39
All excellent links, but I prefer this last one as the photo from the top (burning in) page, reminds me of burning/testing of passive mod of Beresford :)
Thanks for this, but the little :scratch: one in me can not resist but to ask you if you have compared your Ayre C-5xe MP universal player with Caiman in passive mode with Auricaps?
I remember that Ayre was better against Clarity caps, but is the difference smaller now?
The difference is still there, but ever diminishing! The Caiman+AuriCaps is doing an extremely fine job and, if I were looking for a CD solution now, it would be a definite purchase with a decent transport (say, a CEC or Teac). Do bear in mind, though, that my Caiman is extensively modified with Elna Silmic II caps and a SuperTeddy power supply, so add this into the cost. Nevertheless, it creates a killer CD player for very much less than a thousand Pounds.
The Ayre C-5xe MP is a bit special; where it gains is in the sheer structural solidity of the soundstage and the extremely extended bass, not to mention shades of fine detail and resolution of harmonics (I love choral music and this is important as the CD format is not good for massed choral vocals). It's also very non-harsh and this is where the MP upgrade made gains. Without MP, the Caiman+AuriCaps would be pretty much its equal. However, the Ayre is not inexpensive and so you pay a lot of money for a small gain, as ever in hi-fi.
I cannot praise the Caiman highly enough; it represents STUNNING value for money as well as having been a very pleasant upgrading project.
(Sorry for my english…it is not my native language)
I was very curious to see any frequency response differences (passive mode) with resistance load vs capacitors values to my lab.
Three preamp input resistance: 10K, 20K, 47K
vs
Three Capacitor Values: 2.2/10/47uF
Equipment: Caiman, emu 0404 usb 2.0 sound card
Software: RightMarkAudio Analyser Pro.
Bit/Resolution of Measures: 24bit/96KHz.
Comparative Table with Capacitor of 10uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2750&stc=1&d=1286301185
Frequency Response with Capacitor of 10uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2751&stc=1&d=1286301308
Comparative Table with Capacitor of 47uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2752&stc=1&d=1286301545
Frequency Response with with Capacitor of 47uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2753&stc=1&d=1286301571
(continued...)
Comparative Table with Capacitor of 2.2uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2755&stc=1&d=1286301866
Frequency Response with Capacitor of 2.2uF
http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2756&stc=1&d=1286301897
Τhe data tell the truth ... we must have enough attention to the selection of the capacitance whith a low input impedance preamplifier.
HighFidelityGuy
05-10-2010, 18:23
Excellent work Manolis! :cool:
That illustrates the relationship very clearly and should help people choose what capacitance value to aim for. Thanks.
But watch the vertical scale: -1dB is a very small amount, barely discernible, and how many active preamps do you know with an input impedance of less than 47k ohms? Coupling caps are not for passive preamps anyway.
HighFidelityGuy
05-10-2010, 18:54
But watch the vertical scale: -1dB is a very small amount, barely discernible, and how many active preamps do you know with an input impedance of less than 47k ohms? Coupling caps are not for passive preamps anyway.
Could you explain a bit more about why coupling caps are not for passive preamps? I have a passive preamp and I've been told that because it uses a 10K Alps potentiometer the input impedance is 10K, so surely that would make using a higher value coupling cap (in the DAC output) rather important. Or am I missing the point you're trying to make. That's quite possible. :lol: Cheers. :)
Yes, you could use a higher value coupling cap into a 10k ohm pot, but you might start hitting the drive limits of the DAC chip and your gain remains low. I personally far prefer an active preamp that doesn't have so many gain/noise/frequency compromises.
Reid Malenfant
05-10-2010, 19:08
I have a passive preamp and I've been told that because it uses a 10K Alps potentiometer the input impedance is 10K, so surely that would make using a higher value coupling cap (in the DAC output) rather important. Or am I missing the point you're trying to make. That's quite possible. :lol: Cheers. :)
Yes, you'd need a capacitor approximately 5 times the value of one that'd produce the same low frequency rolloff as with a 47 or 50K potentiometer ;)
I have just had a thought, i'm not sure whether you'd like to try this but i think a PM to the Caiman designer might well get you more information. In theory the Caiman will output zero volts with no signal, the only reason DC blocking caps are used is because of the op amp output which can & often indeed does have a DC offset. No op amp is perfect so you'll get a bit of DC which will cause a bit of noise if it's allowed to conduct through the volume pot.
You might be able to get away with doing away with the coupling cap altogether if using the passive mod. Again i'd suggest a PM to the man himself. Assuming the DAC output to be zero with zero input i see no need for the cap at all, it might be able to be replaced with a bit of wire :eyebrows:
Just a thought :)
You might be able to get away with doing away with the coupling cap altogether if using the passive mod. Again i'd suggest a PM to the man himself. Assuming the DAC output to be zero with zero input i see no need for the cap at all, it might be able to be replaced with a bit of wire
You can't. As I remember it, the Wolfson DAC chip has about 2.6V on its output, which is why you need a coupling cap.
Reid Malenfant
05-10-2010, 19:27
Ah, yes indeed you'd need a coupling cap. Sounds like it uses a 5V & ground rather than +/- supplies :doh:
Sounds like it uses a 5V & ground rather than +/- supplies
Yep, thus the favourite mod of replacing the +5V standard 7805 regulator with something better.
These are subtle differences, guys, not night and day!
The ClarityCap ESA sounded very clean with transparent midrange, extended highs and a non-harsh overall sound but slightly light in the bass. Note that I was using 1uF 600V but into a 47k load so plenty of bass extension. They were better than the Rubycons but not by so much that the Rubycons are embarrassed.
The AuriCaps better the ClarityCaps by a small amount of midrange transparency and liquidity (female voice is truly beautiful), very wide soundstage and a very tight but extended and slightly weightier bass. Note that mine are 2.2uF 200V but I don't think the value differences account for the difference in quality of the bass.
Does that help? I say again, SUBTLE differences. All of these caps are good!
Thanks for your breakdown Martin, thats helped me a lot
I'm going to give it a go with some non polar caps i have had given to me and go from there
Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...
They only JUST fit in the case. and that's lying flat on the pcb.
Also, the connecting wire is quite short- so a permanent install in the Dac would need some hookup wire soldered on to increase the length.
I've got them in with the case off...too early for a final idea of sound quality but out the box they are better than the Nicheon Muse I had in before...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)
Can I expect the sound to change over time the way the electrolytic caps did?
Ta.
Yes, the midrange becomes even more transparent and the bass fills out a little.
Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...
They only JUST fit in the case. and that's lying flat on the pcb.
Also, the connecting wire is quite short- so a permanent install in the Dac would need some hookup wire soldered on to increase the length.
I've got them in with the case off...too early for a final idea of sound quality but out the box they are better than the Nicheon Muse I had in before...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)
Can I expect the sound to change over time the way the electrolytic caps did?
Ta.
Oohh, Mr. Postie delivered mine today, they're BIG! I shall install later and see how they sound. Are they bipolar or whatever it's called - i.e. does it matter which leg gets plugged into the +/- hole? (Sorry for getting really technical! :lol:)
Hey Alex,
Naa, doesn't matter which way they go in...
simples!
Hey Alex,
Naa, doesn't matter which way they go in...
simples!
Cheers buddy, going to get my screwdrivers now! :eyebrows:
I'll give this one another go to see if anyone can shed light on this;
Something Martin included in his 'final' iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music? I am pretty sure that's not the case but I'm wondering if Stan's very first post might be the best way to do the passive mode, taking the output from as close to the DAC as possible, via the coupling capacitors straight into the output pin of the RCAs. Using Auri's or Clarity caps will make this quite straight forward.
Like a Dornier pilot over London, I await to be shot down
Cheers Andy
p.s. not sure why I came up with that one, unless it's because I'm off to Dresden next week:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
All done, the case is a little bowed but its screwed down (I have to worry about little fingers) and there is sound coming from both channels... Let the burn-in commence!
Something Martin included in his 'final' iteration raised a question for me. How exactly does the muting relay work and when does it take effect? Can it introduce artificial silences into the music?
Hi Andy
As I understand it, the muting relay only kicks in when there is no signal lock into the DAC and ensures that no spurious noise emerges from the DAC in an unlocked condition. I don't think the relay enables between tracks as far as I can tell.
Stratmangler
06-10-2010, 22:11
There may not be spurious electrical noise coming out of the Caiman, but I have noticed mechanical noise - ie. the muting relay opening & closing.
It can occasionally be annoying.
Any suggestions for a more mechanically quiet relay ?
All done, the case is a little bowed but its screwed down (I have to worry about little fingers) and there is sound coming from both channels... Let the burn-in commence!
How did you get them in Alex...?
I tried and gave up figured I'd need to solder extra wire onto them
Also, where abouts in the Dac did you put them
An help Appreciated...no little fingers here, but two yellow "candles" sticking out under my tellys VERY annoying! :)
Ta.
I just laid them flat as best I could - I suspect they are in danger of blowing the thing up as the legs are unshielded and touching all sorts of bits, but not each other, and nothing else metal... I would take a picture but I fear if I open the case again they'll fly out like a jack-in-a-box! :lol:
Been running in for about 12 hours now, having a "Daddy Day Care" day today so will try and have a listen when she has her nap in an hour or two.
I temporarily used some hook up wire to lengthen the legs - twisted and soldered(insulated stuff). One fits at the side of the USB point and the other near the pot. I can close the lid easily.
I suspect that they will be a temporary project and I will eventually end up with something that fits better, does not need extension wires and sounds better than the benchmark grey Rubbies (if it exists).
Regards
Chris
Hi Andy
As I understand it, the muting relay only kicks in when there is no signal lock into the DAC and ensures that no spurious noise emerges from the DAC in an unlocked condition. I don't think the relay enables between tracks as far as I can tell.
Thanks MArtin, that makes sense. Do you know where in the signal path the relay sits?
heers Andy
Thanks MArtin, that makes sense. Do you know where in the signal path the relay sits?
Only a guess: just before the op-amp board sockets, i.e. in series with the coupling caps.
OK, if that's the case, we'll have to get Stan's definitive, then at least we could connect the output of the caps straight onto the RCA's.
SteveTheShadow
07-10-2010, 14:50
Hmmm
been following this thread with interest.
I have a 7510 mk6 DAC and have carried out the wire mod and the passive output mod.
Agreed, it gives a massive leap upwards in sound quality.
Strangely enough the caps I have found to give the best sound in my system
are the humble little red, rectangular 0.47uF, 100V WIMA mkp I bought from Maplin, a couple of years ago for about 50p each.
I've tried Jensens, Mundorfs and clarity caps of the same value, but none were as good as the little WIMAs.
With my 100K amplifier input impedance, they give -3dB point of 3.4Hz, which is low enough for me. :)
Steve
Canetoad
07-10-2010, 18:48
I ordered some 2.2uF auricaps and received an e-mail today to say they're out of stock. Doh! :doh:
Bernie - did you order from AudioCap? Bad luck, I must have had the last two :)
They're worth waiting for. The best caps I've used as coupling caps.
Canetoad
07-10-2010, 20:24
Yep, they should have some more at the end of the month. My ClarityCaps are sounding pretty damned good so I won't exactly be missing not having them. You're comments just made me a bit curious about trying them.:scratch:
Just intalled Stans eBay recommendation 10uF film cap...
<snip>...a fair bit better actually in transparency and solidity in the soundstage?
Because of this you get drawn into the music with hardly any effort, regardless of what it is.
Also, the bass is awesome. My amp is 50k Ohms and it's a 10uF cap...it goes L O O W..
Good stuff, film caps are better... :)
<snip>
Doesn't it indeed! Listening to The Prodigy - Fat of The Land (which I'll admit isn't a bass shy recording in the first place...) but things are rattling and shaking in my room which didn't before, including the sofa and me! (I didn't realise my speakers were capable of doing that!)
I'll try some more subtle recordings later (making the most of having the house to myself for an hour or two :eyebrows:) but they do seem something of a bargain - thanks Stan (again!)
StanleyB
08-10-2010, 12:09
Am I giving away too many of my secret tweaks;)? You guys seem to having a great time with each component I recommend :guitar:.
Am I giving away too many of my secret tweaks;)? You guys seem to having a great time with each component I recommend :guitar:.
It would be rude not to try them after your generosity in passing them on, Stan! ;)
Am I giving away too many of my secret tweaks;)? You guys seem to having a great time with each component I recommend :guitar:.
Well...when they are good they are good!
The question I suppose is how GOOD are these Poly film caps in comparison to the likes of the AudiCap/ClarityCap etc...
One thing for sure, you can tell that film caps are better then 'lytics.
Ali Tait
08-10-2010, 19:44
Told ya! :)
Ali Tait
08-10-2010, 19:45
Am I giving away too many of my secret tweaks;)? You guys seem to having a great time with each component I recommend :guitar:.
It's OK Stan, we won't tell anyone!
Told ya! :)
I really SHOULD start listening to you Ali... :)
Ali Tait
08-10-2010, 20:05
Well it's not me,I've just learned some stuff from other folk that know a lot more than I do!
Well it's not me,I've just learned some stuff from other folk that know a lot more than I do!
every days a schoolday!
one of these days i MIGHT even feel up to buying a soldering iron.... :)
every days a schoolday!
one of these days i MIGHT even feel up to buying a soldering iron.... :)
Don't bother matey, I did - it's still in the packaging! :lol:
Ali Tait
08-10-2010, 20:50
C'mon guys,give them a go! Good way to start is making some i/c's.Buy some cheap wire and plugs from fleabay. There's a lot of good stuff there for not a lot of dosh.
StanleyB
09-10-2010, 08:25
Saying that, some might be waiting for the Gator instead. It's a pity these caps are so big. You would need 4 of them in the Gator for the line out stage, which would be a real Houdini trick if you want to close the case afterwards...
Yes, I will be in a quandary when the Gator boards are released... will have to see how the 2 compare and then decide or else build a bigger case... I wonder if Carson (I think it was) is getting anywhere with his...?
Ali Tait
09-10-2010, 11:29
Lots of cases on ebay Alex, you'd just need to drill the front plate to suit.
Ali Tait
09-10-2010, 11:31
Or get a chassis built to order from modushop. Their stuff looks very good. They will be making the chassis for my direct coupled amps Nick is building for me.
StanleyB
09-10-2010, 12:06
I started on a drawing for a front panel that could fit in a bigger case, but after switching to a new laptop I haven't taken the time to install the relevant software to complete the job. I better get back on the case ( no pun intended. Honest...).
Anyone know where I can get those blue finned mains transformers that are often found in other DACs?
Ali Tait
09-10-2010, 12:24
This what you're looking for Stan?
http://www.nuvotem.com/en/products/std_pcb2x115v.shtml
StanleyB
09-10-2010, 12:48
Cheers Ali. That's the one. I want to take the size of the PSU section into account in case anyone on AoS comes up with a design for a linear PSU that can fit inside the project case.
I'll concentrate on the front panel. We now need possible sources and suggestions for the main case.
any thoughts Stan on the "Gator" board as compared to Passive Mod?
(For us non headphone users that is...)
Mega happy with improvements with the Passive Mod "raw" signal coming from the Dac chip here.
No wish to change except for Red Sea parting/Veils lifted kinda thing ;):)
StanleyB
09-10-2010, 16:37
The passive mod is sufficient for those who are happy with the 1Vrms or so unbuffered output and don't need the headphone out. So you can quite happily continue with your passive mod. I only have enough Rubycon caps to make 200 Gators anyhow. So anyone who is happy with their passive mod should allow those who need the Gator to have a first pick of the cherries :).
Never been fond of cherries but ready to pick never the less...
Good thing that I never got around to modifying anything else than the voltage regs.
The passive mod is sufficient for those who are happy with the 1Vrms or so unbuffered output and don't need the headphone out. So you can quite happily continue with your passive mod. I only have enough Rubycon caps to make 200 Gators anyhow. So anyone who is happy with their passive mod should allow those who need the Gator to have a first pick of the cherries :).
Happy to take a back seat on this one. :)
Film Caps rock!
Graybags
09-10-2010, 23:11
I have been trying THIS ONE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10UF-160V-DC-CAPACITOR-/360012654775?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item53d26d28b7)
I might buy a few more before he runs out ;).
Thanks Stan - Been curious about this thread for weeks now wondering what to go for. I might go for one of the expensive caps later (Clarity / Auricaps) but in the meantime found this one by the same seller (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360012654865). As it's from the same company that's in my Heybrook crossovers I thought it worth a punt.
Got some caps for the passive mod yesterday at the Tonbridge Audiojumble.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/Ampohm001.jpg
Bit of a squeeze at nearly 4" and 1 3/4"!
Sound quite special though.
Covenant
11-10-2010, 16:28
I want to see a photo with those installed!
StanleyB
11-10-2010, 17:05
:eek:. The first name that springs to mind for that job is Frankenmod.
I am going to make a gallery page on my site.
Look like cans of Special Brew....
methinks a recase project is in the works... ;)
:eek:. The first name that springs to mind for that job is Frankenmod.
I am going to make a gallery page on my site.
Haha. Frankenmod:lol::lol::lol:
You can see the Elma Slimic's that I replaced on the left. look like Ants in comparison.
Gazjam. You could well be right. These caps are very very good.
Ali Tait
11-10-2010, 18:54
If you like those,you'll love Audio Note copper in oils.
:eek:. The first name that springs to mind for that job is Frankenmod.
I am going to make a gallery page on my site.
What about the Beresford Beast!
Regards
Chris
Just running the 2.2uf Auricaps in using the HD+ as a source, these caps seem pretty nice so far in the Caiman.
A simple yet extremely good idea with the separate audioboard Stan , it makes trying things like passive mod and alternative active audioboards much more convenient :)
Got some caps for the passive mod yesterday at the Tonbridge Audiojumble.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/Ampohm001.jpg
Bit of a squeeze at nearly 4" and 1 3/4"!
Sound quite special though.
Wow we those are big, at last some pictures
we want more pictures please
apmusson
13-10-2010, 22:20
Gaz,
Having tried ClarityCaps 1.6uf and these yellow beauties ......
The ClarityCaps sound very slightly clearer in the upper ranges but, the yellow caps have it in the bass stakes. They are my favourites overall.
I wondered whether you had any luck squeezing them inside the case? I am going to extend the wires and try and place one next to the USB input, but i'm not sure where the other one will go?
Ade
Well...when they are good they are good!
The question I suppose is how GOOD are these Poly film caps in comparison to the likes of the AudiCap/ClarityCap etc...
One thing for sure, you can tell that film caps are better then 'lytics.
The ClarityCaps sound very slightly clearer in the upper ranges but, the yellow caps have it in the bass stakes. They are my favourites overall.
Ade
Ade, what's the input impedance of your preamp? Just wondering whether that's a factor re the bass.
StanleyB
14-10-2010, 08:02
The ClarityCaps sound very slightly clearer in the upper ranges but, the yellow caps have it in the bass stakes.
Put a 100nF cap across the 10uF yellow cap.
Put a 100nF cap across the 10uF yellow cap.
could you translate that one for us non soldering types? :)
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 11:04
Hi Gary,
It means solder an 0.1uF cap in parallel to your coupling cap.0.1uF =100nF.
Hi Gary,
It means solder an 0.1uF cap in parallel to your coupling cap.0.1uF =100nF.
Thanks Ali!
learning slowly...::scratch:
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 14:35
It's a bypass cap that should give you a better frequency response.
Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 14:41
It's a bypass cap that should give you a better frequency response.
I really doubt it'll make any difference at all as the 10uf cap (if it's a film type) will already have a very low esr right the way up to hundreds of KHz. If it was an electrolytic then it might well be worth a punt :)
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 14:44
Best to try it and see.
Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 14:44
If you say so :eyebrows:
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:13
I do!
Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:23
I do!
:lol:
I tell you what could well be worthwhile Ali. I know there are some very expensive capacitors that you guys are going on about. Now if someone couldn't afford to fit one of these large (say 2.2uf or bigger) expensive caps then it may very likely be worthwhile bypassing an MKT with something like a 100nf (which should be vastly cheaper) of the super expensive variety ;)
That way you'll get the best of both worlds with strong bass & the upper registers taking on more of the expensive caps characteristics :)
I suggest silver mica for the 100nF, RS do them, also hificollective.
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 17:43
:lol:
I tell you what could well be worthwhile Ali. I know there are some very expensive capacitors that you guys are going on about. Now if someone couldn't afford to fit one of these large (say 2.2uf or bigger) expensive caps then it may very likely be worthwhile bypassing an MKT with something like a 100nf (which should be vastly cheaper) of the super expensive variety ;)
That way you'll get the best of both worlds with strong bass & the upper registers taking on more of the expensive caps characteristics :)
Yes agreed,it's often done so a cheaper 'lytic can be used but you still get film cap performance.Some folk say it still improves a film cap though.
Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 17:52
Yes agreed,it's often done so a cheaper 'lytic can be used but you still get film cap performance.Some folk say it still improves a film cap though.
No doubt it'll improve if used as a bypass for an electrolytic, but what i'm saying is that if you can only afford to buy a 10uf MKT & not some Teflon wonder cap it'd definately be worth bypassing the MKT with something smaller than you'd normally use (such as a 100nf) but of vastly superior quality (as these will be much more affordable).
Silvered Mica (as Clive suggested) or Polystyrene spring to mind ;) Or Teflon if you can find them.
I have no doubt it would improve things, what i was trying to say earlier is there is very little point in bypassing say a 10uf MKT with a 100nf MKT ;)
I am going to get my ears cleaned out tomorrow:eek: so if you can all wait I will add some to my "super expensive:stalks:" caps NOT (£20something each) down to a £Fiver at the 'Jumble:ner:
I will let you know. I have some old 0.1 KimberKaps to try.
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 18:10
Be interesting what the outcome will be.I have some tantalums somewhere,must look them out and give it a try.
StanleyB
14-10-2010, 18:18
If I had accepted other people's theory, I would never have tried some of the mods that have resulted in some great results.
Reid Malenfant
14-10-2010, 18:25
If I had accepted other people's theory, I would never have tried some of the mods that have resulted in some great results.
Oh i agree with that :) I'm sure most audio engineers would laugh if i said i could make a 190W RMS (4ohm) single ended class A power amp with a quiescent dissipation of about 150W & 13Amp quiescent current :eyebrows:
You just need to think out of the box :)
Ali Tait
14-10-2010, 18:25
Eggsackerly!
apmusson
14-10-2010, 18:53
2840
Here is my Caiman.... With those lovely yellow ebay caps. I have managed to get the case to close. One Cap by the USB input, the other in the same position but nearer the front of the Caiman. You have to hook the caps under the case indents, but they don't get crushed and they sound great.
I am going to get a couple of 0.1uf caps just to see the difference they make, but for now I'm going to do some serious listening with this lovely setup.
Ade
HighFidelityGuy
18-10-2010, 15:44
2840
Here is my Caiman.... With those lovely yellow ebay caps. I have managed to get the case to close. One Cap by the USB input, the other in the same position but nearer the front of the Caiman. You have to hook the caps under the case indents, but they don't get crushed and they sound great.
I am going to get a couple of 0.1uf caps just to see the difference they make, but for now I'm going to do some serious listening with this lovely setup.
Ade
Nicely done Ade. I picked up a pair of those caps too and I've been running them for the past week. So far they seem very good good. Nice and smooth but detailed with good sound stage. They're probably about the best I've tried so far but I've tried that many I'm starting to struggle to remember what some sounded like. I think I'm going to have to go back through them all now that they're all run in.
I also fancy trying adding extra bypass caps to mix and match the sound. Is there any reason I shouldn't try running a pair of high value (up to 47uF) caps in parallel with the Italian 10uF ones? I'm thinking this could allow me to get the best characteristics from a couple of different types of caps. Or is that just madness? :scratch:
HighFidelityGuy
20-10-2010, 15:54
Well I decided to try strapping a couple of different film caps together to see what difference it made to the sound. I bypassed a pair of Mundorf RXF (http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_rxf.html) 22uF with the Italian 10uF caps off ebay. I ended up with a massive bulk sticking out the the top of the poor little Caiman but it works (with the aid of some insulating tape for stability). :lol: I'll try and post a picture soon, it looks quite comical.
Anyway, at first I was a bit dissapointed with the results as I was hearing some harshness in the trebble but that died down after a day of running in. I'm now quite happy with the overall sound. I do seem to have got some traits from both. The Italians have provided the smoothness and the Mundorfs have added some air and lightness and some extra width to the stereo image. I also seem to be getting deeper bass now, probably due to the Mundorf's adding an extra 22uF. So my bass roll off frequency will be a fair bit lower than before.
So overall the experiment has been successful but I feel it could be improved upon. I've ordered some 0.05uF silver mica and 0.1uF teflon caps from ebay to try as bypass caps. They may take a while to come from Moscow though. :eyebrows:
apmusson
20-10-2010, 20:40
Dave
I'd love to see the pictures... Somewhere in this capacitive collection there is audio perfection. :eyebrows: I love the 10uf ebay caps and am going to keep those as my base capacitance and try a few different values as bypass caps too.
Ade
Well I decided to try strapping a couple of different film caps together to see what difference it made to the sound. I bypassed a pair of Mundorf RXF (http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_rxf.html) 22uF with the Italian 10uF caps off ebay. I ended up with a massive bulk sticking out the the top of the poor little Caiman but it works (with the aid of some insulating tape for stability). :lol: I'll try and post a picture soon, it looks quite comical.
Anyway, at first I was a bit dissapointed with the results as I was hearing some harshness in the trebble but that died down after a day of running in. I'm now quite happy with the overall sound. I do seem to have got some traits from both. The Italians have provided the smoothness and the Mundorfs have added some air and lightness and some extra width to the stereo image. I also seem to be getting deeper bass now, probably due to the Mundorf's adding an extra 22uF. So my bass roll off frequency will be a fair bit lower than before.
So overall the experiment has been successful but I feel it could be improved upon. I've ordered some 0.05uF silver mica and 0.1uF teflon caps from ebay to try as bypass caps. They may take a while to come from Moscow though. :eyebrows:
HighFidelityGuy
20-10-2010, 22:27
Dave
I'd love to see the pictures... Somewhere in this capacitive collection there is audio perfection. :eyebrows: I love the 10uf ebay caps and am going to keep those as my base capacitance and try a few different values as bypass caps too.
Ade
As promised ;):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Beresford%20DACs/Bigcaps.jpg
They protrude by about 3 inches at the moment. I could get them to fit better but it was just a quick experiment, so I'm not bothered about neatness.
I really want to try some higher end film caps but my current setup requires high value caps, so that means spending lots. I've heard the standard Mundorf Supremes are good value for money so I'm going to try the highest value of those I can get next month. I should have my silver mica and teflon bypass caps to play with by then too, so I'm looking forward to further experimentation.
I think one of the tricky things is going to be that what works for one person might not work for another due to different setups being used. So we're only going to be able to roughly guide each other based on what changes different caps make to the sound. Hopefully we'll all stumble across our own favourite caps soon. :)
Got around last night to fitting 0.1uF bypass caps onto the yellow ebay film cap?
Stan B had mentioned it as a good thing to do...in his usual understated way of course...
flippin 'eck!
:eek:
I noticed a difference right away, the mid and treble had "changed" somehow...it was a different kind of presentation?
More "texture" is how I would try to describe it?
Theres detail coming through I hadn't heard..really subtle stuff, for instance the WAY a guitar note is being strummed...sustain, harmonics, amplifier noise, all of that.
At first I thought I had lost a bit of bass depth - and I had - and there was less "impact", particulalrly with the big classical stuff.
But the detail was all there, much more so than before. Room ambience, mike noises...very distracting.
I left the Dac playing the telly overnight, I had noticed cap burn in before and whilst I hadnt expected anything (dont know why) with the wee 0.1uF caps I thought I'd give it a go anyway.
This morning the bass was back, big time.
A lot tighter and with more depth..the kind of bass you feel in your trouserlegs!
If you have done the passive mod..get some film caps.
If you have film caps...fit a bypass cap.
..dont ask why, just do it :)
As promised ;):
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Beresford%20DACs/Bigcaps.jpg
They protrude by about 3 inches at the moment. I could get them to fit better but it was just a quick experiment, so I'm not bothered about neatness.
I really want to try some higher end film caps but my current setup requires high value caps, so that means spending lots. I've heard the standard Mundorf Supremes are good value for money so I'm going to try the highest value of those I can get next month. I should have my silver mica and teflon bypass caps to play with by then too, so I'm looking forward to further experimentation.
I think one of the tricky things is going to be that what works for one person might not work for another due to different setups being used. So we're only going to be able to roughly guide each other based on what changes different caps make to the sound. Hopefully we'll all stumble across our own favourite caps soon. :)
Dave,
I'm in the same boat as you, looking at better film caps.
I started a thread over on the 'Wam, some good links/responses from the guys over there.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?46608-Film-Caps...-Opinions-on-the-best-sounding-REALISTICALLY-priced-type
StanleyB
22-10-2010, 17:48
Got around last night to fitting 0.1uF bypass caps onto the yellow ebay film cap?
Stan B had mentioned it as a good thing to do...in his usual understated way of course...
flippin 'eck!
:eek:
I noticed a difference right away, the mid and treble had "changed" somehow...it was a different kind of presentation?
More "texture" is how I would try to describe it?
Theres detail coming through I hadn't heard..really subtle stuff, for instance the WAY a guitar note is being strummed...sustain, harmonics, amplifier noise, all of that.
Some said it would never work;). But I am accustomed to the theory getting in the way of tangible evidence:).
Got around last night to fitting 0.1uF bypass caps onto the yellow ebay film cap?
Stan B had mentioned it as a good thing to do...in his usual understated way of course...
flippin 'eck!
:eek:
I noticed a difference right away, the mid and treble had "changed" somehow...it was a different kind of presentation?
More "texture" is how I would try to describe it?
Theres detail coming through I hadn't heard..really subtle stuff, for instance the WAY a guitar note is being strummed...sustain, harmonics, amplifier noise, all of that.
At first I thought I had lost a bit of bass depth - and I had - and there was less "impact", particulalrly with the big classical stuff.
But the detail was all there, much more so than before. Room ambience, mike noises...very distracting.
I left the Dac playing the telly overnight, I had noticed cap burn in before and whilst I hadnt expected anything (dont know why) with the wee 0.1uF caps I thought I'd give it a go anyway.
This morning the bass was back, big time.
A lot tighter and with more depth..the kind of bass you feel in your trouserlegs!
If you have done the passive mod..get some film caps.
If you have film caps...fit a bypass cap.
..dont ask why, just do it :)
Gazjam,
Done the passive mod with those 10uf Italian film caps so.....
What brand/type of 0.1uf bypass cap did you use please?
Cheers
Frizup
Surreydocker
22-10-2010, 19:22
Dave,
I'm in the same boat as you, looking at better film caps.
I started a thread over on the 'Wam, some good links/responses from the guys over there.
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?46608-Film-Caps...-Opinions-on-the-best-sounding-REALISTICALLY-priced-type
Hi,
I've just looked at the Hifiwigwam thread (but can't post) and I notice that Ansar Supersound get an honourable mention. I was wondering if you guys knew you can buy the top of the range Ansar SPA caps with solid silver leads direct from the manufacturers (they even take paypal). I emailed them for a quote and the prices pleasantly surprised me (less than 10GBP each inc p&p for 8uF). I'm a big fan of silver as I use solid silver interconnects and a silver wired passive pre so these fit in well and I love the smooth, articulate sound. To be honest I was rather underwhelmed by the Rubycon 47uF bipolars and I even reverted back to listening through the opamp but these Ansars are a whole new ballgame. (maybe not a fair comparison as I hadn't at that stage employed a linear PS but they do say don't put 'lytics in the signal path ;) )
Here's a link - http://www.suppression-devices.com/ansar/spa-audio-capacitors.html
Ian
HighFidelityGuy
22-10-2010, 19:42
Thanks for the links guys. :)
It's also good to know that the 0.1uF bypass caps seem to work well. I can't wait for mine to arrive now. :cool:
Gazjam,
Done the passive mod with those 10uf Italian film caps so.....
What brand/type of 0.1uf bypass cap did you use please?
Cheers
Frizup
Good news Frizzup, a friend of mine can post a couple out for you to try. They are the same as the ones I'm using.
Can organise it over PM.
Gaz.
Anyone swapped out the large input cap in the Caiman when using the output mod and also using a linear p.s?
I already have a Kendeil 10,000uf cap in my ps in front of double regulation and would like to try removing (or changing) the 16v cap in the Caiman.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Chris
Anyone swapped out the large input cap in the Caiman when using the output mod and also using a linear p.s?
I already have a Kendeil 10,000uf cap in my ps in front of double regulation and would like to try removing (or changing) the 16v cap in the Caiman.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Chris
Thats my next mod to the Dac, await this one with interest :)
Couple of guys have done it, with improved results I think?
HighFidelityGuy
27-10-2010, 14:16
Anyone swapped out the large input cap in the Caiman when using the output mod and also using a linear p.s?
I already have a Kendeil 10,000uf cap in my ps in front of double regulation and would like to try removing (or changing) the 16v cap in the Caiman.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Chris
This subject came up in one of the linear supply threads a few months ago. For people running a high end linear supply based around something like the SuperTeddyReg the 10,000uF resevoir cap should be replaced with a smaller film or tant cap as this type of supply isn't designed to charge large caps. If the cable length between your supply and DAC is anything more than a few CM then you should use 10uF (some people have used 20uF). 1uF can be used if the cable is only a few CM, but that's unlikely unless you've put the supply in the same case as the DAC.
I tried a 10uF film cap but didn't notice any difference in the sound. I don't think it's something that's likely to make much of an audible difference, it just makes sure that the supply isn't being strained. I ordered a few other caps to try out but never got round to it. Maybe one day. :)
EDIT: If you do swap the resevoir cap you may as well get one with a higher voltage rating to make sure that you don't damage it with 15-16V supply.
StanleyB
27-10-2010, 18:21
The reservoir caps in my DACs are before the regulators.
The reservoir caps in my DACs are before the regulators.
Thanks Stan,
I already have a nice 10,000 uf cap in my PS and am looking to try taking out the one in the Caiman as I don't think that I need it now. A 10uf film cap has been suggested instead but I wonder if I need anything at all as the PS is very well regulated.
Regards
Chris
Reid Malenfant
27-10-2010, 18:57
A 10uf film cap has been suggested instead but I wonder if I need anything at all as the PS is very well regulated.
Hi Chris, it's always best to have something local to the circuit for decoupling purposes ;) Nothing like a nice low impedance near where the current is being drawn to prevent any oscillations :)
Chris
Both I and MartinT have done this, see the photos about a million pages back in this or the power supply thread, I've lost track1
Cheers Andy
Hi Andy,
What was your opinion to the sound changes (if any) achieved and what cap did you end up with. I have one of those big yellow 10uf caps I could try as they are spare.
Regards
Chris
Hi Andy,
What was your opinion to the sound changes (if any) achieved and what cap did you end up with. I have one of those big yellow 10uf caps I could try as they are spare.
Regards
Chris
Hi Chris
I put in a Mundorf which I got from PartsConnexions as it just fits in the gap. I cannot say what part this plays in the overall improvements as I did a lot of up grades at the same time. It just makes sense not to have a very large cap across an already very large cap in the external power supply!
Cheers Andy
ps I think MartinT did this mod separately so he might have a better answer for you.
sparky68
29-10-2010, 17:15
:stalks::stalks::stalks:
im upto page 7 of this thread can someone be kind enough to shorthand me to this page before i go blind :lolsign:
StanleyB
29-10-2010, 17:28
:stalks::stalks::stalks:
im upto page 7 of this thread can someone be kind enough to shorthand me to this page before i go blind :lolsign:
We don't do shorthand:ner:.
sparky68
29-10-2010, 17:34
lol ok back to page 7 it is then :lol:
you manage to post my caiman today Stan ?
Mark
StanleyB
29-10-2010, 17:49
lol ok back to page 7 it is then :lol:
you manage to post my caiman today Stan ?
Mark
We don't discuss unrelated business in the Drawing Board either;).
Thanks Andy,
Decided to go for it and swapped out the Hitano 10,000uf cap for one of those yellow polyester 10uf's I had going spare. My linear PS has a 10,000uf Kendeil in it before the regs and I figured 20,000uf smoothing is a little OTT.
I begged a couple of EAO MKC1862 10uf's from Les W of Avondale for the passive mod previously hence why the yellows were redundant.
I will give it a few days left on and have a listen.
Regards
Chris
Have used the Italian 10uF capacitors on my 7520 with Wolfson DAC, and was hoping for a recommendation on the best type and value (0.1uF?) of by-pass capacitor.
Have loved the discussions and mods suggested for the Beresord so thanks to all the innovators and experimenters amongst you. Got the Silmic and regulators to replace as well and I fancy building a PSU.
Thanks Andy,
Decided to go for it and swapped out the Hitano 10,000uf cap for one of those yellow polyester 10uf's I had going spare. My linear PS has a 10,000uf Kendeil in it before the regs and I figured 20,000uf smoothing is a little OTT.
I begged a couple of EAO MKC1862 10uf's from Les W of Avondale for the passive mod previously hence why the yellows were redundant.
I will give it a few days left on and have a listen.
Regards
Chris
I like it!
Certainly cleaner sounding now that the Hitano cap has gone and replaced by the big yellow 10uf. Sounds much more bouncy and alive so I suspect that the 2 No. 10,000uf caps were deadening things a bit.
I will have a look at taking the doide out and wire linking next as I don't really need it now that my PS has double regulation.
Next step is to take out the Murata's and feed 5v and 12v dedicated supplies straight into the Caiman (my PS has already been built with 2 No. traffos in it).
Regards
Chris
Hi, I put a couple of 10uF Panasonic film caps in place of the 10,000uF reservoir cap. I did detect a slightly improved level of fine detail. My cable from the SuperTeddy PSU is only about 20cm long. There is a photo way back in these pages.
EDIT: there's a photo here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=154064&postcount=789
I like it!
Certainly cleaner sounding now that the Hitano cap has gone and replaced by the big yellow 10uf. Sounds much more bouncy and alive so I suspect that the 2 No. 10,000uf caps were deadening things a bit.
I will have a look at taking the doide out and wire linking next as I don't really need it now that my PS has double regulation.
Next step is to take out the Murata's and feed 5v and 12v dedicated supplies straight into the Caiman (my PS has already been built with 2 No. traffos in it).
Regards
Chris
Hi Chris,
Glad to here on another small improvement. I am planning to put in two high quality RCA sockets and dedicated earth wires back to power input rail I can then connect the output caps straight into the RCA's.
Cheers Andy
sparky68
07-11-2010, 18:38
hey guys
wanting to do the passive mod but need some advise on caps please,
My preamp (booklet) says
Input and sensitivity for 775mV output
phono MC :250uV
Phono MM :3.5mV
CD :150mV
Tuner :150mV
AUX :150mV
Tape :150mV
RIAA Equalization :30Hz to 20kHz +/- 0.5dB
OUTPUT
via phono connectors
output impedance less than 100 Ohms
Bandwidth 10Hz - 50kHz +/- 3dB
which ones do you recommend please ?
at the moment ive swapped the opamp for the LME49720HA DUAL OPAMP which imo is fantastic as my setup is very bass'y this one lightens it up a bit instead of music sounding like a movie soundtrack.
MONOBLOKS says Input And Sensitivity 1.4V
cheers
Mark
Reid Malenfant
07-11-2010, 18:51
CD input ;)
sparky68
07-11-2010, 18:52
que ? :)
Reid Malenfant
07-11-2010, 18:56
Sorry, it's capacitor values you want innit :doh:
If film caps go for a minimum of 2.2uf, better off with 10uf but it's finding them & ones that'll fit :lol: I'm sure someone linked to some decent 10uf film caps on here at a reasonable price ;)
sparky68
07-11-2010, 19:17
thanks Mark, yeh ive seen lots of different ones in the thread but was just wandering if with the impedance of my preamp i should consider a particular one, sorry but im not so clued up on this and after 90 odd pages im still spinning.
So if i go for 2.2uf which voltage please ?
Mark
Reid Malenfant
07-11-2010, 19:29
Actually you haven't specified the input impedance of any of the inputs :eyebrows: Not your fault as you probably don't have that information, we'll assume it's pretty standard at about 47,000K ohm ;)
The higher the voltage capacitor that you fit the less distortion there will be is all i can say in reality :) You should be able to find 2.2uf 400V caps that will fit, but if you go for 10uf then you will probably be restricted to 100-150V or so.
In reality the distortion will be miniscule as we are talking about a signal of less than 2V RMS & it'll only manifest itself near the cutoff frequency which will likely be less than 10Hz anyway ;)
If it was me i'd go for the biggest (highest voltage rating) 10uf caps i could find as this will lower the -3Db frequency which shifts the distortion lower, but it'll reduce the phase shift caused by the capacitor in the audio band, specifically in the lower bass registers..
Try bypassing it with a 100nf (0.1uf) even higher quality capacitor like a silvered mica or polystyrene for even better results ;)
That's just what i'd do though :cool: Others might not be of the same opinion..
sparky68
07-11-2010, 20:46
Cheers Mark
Thanks for taking the time to explain what i need its appreciated :cool:
i know ebay china stuff is not rated to buy but found THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350313590927&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT) ?
cant seem to find any in stock anywhere else.
and also a nice idiots guide on capacitors HERE (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/capacitor.htm)
Mark
Reid Malenfant
07-11-2010, 20:53
You won't fit them in the case, trust me ;) They'll be humungous :eyebrows:
Take your pick (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313&_nkw=10uf+mkt&_sacat=See-All-Categories)
Metalised Polyester (MKT) is a reasonable film capacitor, if you bypass them with something better but smaller you should be laughing :)
Canetoad
09-11-2010, 11:55
I've just received the 2.2uF Auricaps I ordered about a month ago. I'll be replacing the 1.6Uf Clarity caps currently in my Caiman with these on the weekend. Wonder if they'll sound any better?
On a similar note, my other amp has input impedance of 25K, so requires a higher capacitance. Can anybody suggest poly caps that would fit inside the Caiman that would be at least 4.7uF?
let us know how the Auricaps work out for you, Bernie. I love mine but give them a week of running-in.
Surreydocker
09-11-2010, 20:37
I like it!
Certainly cleaner sounding now that the Hitano cap has gone and replaced by the big yellow 10uf. Sounds much more bouncy and alive so I suspect that the 2 No. 10,000uf caps were deadening things a bit.
I have just removed the 2 x 2200uF smoothing caps from my 7510 to make room for the 8uF Ansar SPA output caps as I've been running with the lid off for a few weeks. Despite not putting anything in place of the smoothing caps there has been a noticeable improvement in midrange clarity (and I can now get the lid on :) )
Ian
Graybags
11-11-2010, 23:35
A few weeks ago I got around to installing Murta regs. It was a bit of a tortuous exercise, as I'd cut off the 12v reg's pins too close to the board and they were a pig and a half to get out :brickwall:, did the wire link replacement of R1. Anyway here's the pic.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3EJ2JsDjZY/TNxu-4colVI/AAAAAAAAAlo/O5h9JlQ-ObA/PassiveMod.jpg
As you can see I melted the line socket. :rolleyes:
Nice one, Graham. If you decide to settle on those coupling caps you may want to desolder the multi-way socket and solder the caps in place as I have done. This keeps the muting relay in circuit.
... did the wire link replacement of R1.
Help, I'm getting lost in this thread ... Can you tell me what this wire link is or point me to the right post ... Thanks!
-
cz
This is my Caiman with Obbligato Premium 15uF/250V (bypassed with Vishay MKP1837 0.1uF).
The new capacitor are huge, for this reason (+ a linear PSU) I make a new case for the dac.
http://www.avclub.gr/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61348&stc=1&d=1290186437
StanleyB
19-11-2010, 18:14
Help, I'm getting lost in this thread ... Can you tell me what this wire link is or point me to the right post ... Thanks!
-
cz
It's the resistor behind the Murata 5V regulator. If you haven't fitted a Murata regulator then you have nothing to worry about.
...ah, thanks Stan. So much mods around here ...
Cheers, cz
Canetoad
24-11-2010, 10:38
Well, I've been listening to the 2.2 uF Auricaps in my Caiman and can say that I'm not sure if I like them more than the 1.6uF ClarityCaps. I agree that there is better bass weight and plenty of clarity across the board but they sound a bit too bright in my system. I'm thinking they may be exaggerating the harshness I sometimes here from the tweeters in my speakers. Maybe they need a bit more running in.
Overall, I think I'd probably stick with the ClarityCaps for the time being. Maybe the Auricaps will sound better after I've installed the Silmic II caps, Murata regulators and linear PSU. I've received the bits and pieces and hope to install them this weekend.
I'm also waiting on delivery of a Gator board so will be trying that as well when it arrives.
Bernie - if you've not yet installed the Silmics, regs and linear PSU then I would hold judgement as all these mods improve detail while removing harshness. I don't find the Auricaps in any way bright, but the detail is marvellous.
Canetoad
24-11-2010, 14:10
Will do Martin. I've probably put the cart before the horse in this instance. I don't mean to be critical of the Auricaps. They do sound very good. On some songs the bass is thunderous!
If you proceed with a linear PSU, then will you need a new case.
Also, have you in your mind the 10 or 15uF MKP Obbligato Premium capacitors. They fit in a new case perfect and produce a marvellous sound!
If you proceed with a linear PSU, then will you need a new case.
Why? I and several others have built an external linear PSU, merely replacing the switched mode one that comes with the Caiman.
Rare Bird
26-11-2010, 20:45
Why? I and several others have built an external linear PSU, merely replacing the switched mode one that comes with the Caiman.
Seperate boxes all over the place are a thing of the past imho..
Reid Malenfant
26-11-2010, 20:58
If you proceed with a linear PSU, then will you need a new case.
I think what this chap is saying is you'll need a seperate case to house the linear PSU inside of. Best not to have a 230V transformer exposed for all to touch :eek:
On that note i agree & i somehow very much doubt anyone could fit a linear PSU in the standard case along with the DAC itself :lol:
So it does make some kind of sense at the end of the day... Unless you feel like putting the Caiman in a bigger case & fitting a suitable PSU in there as well ;)
Seperate boxes all over the place are a thing of the past imho..
Yep, my wife has a £50.00 Sanyo one boxer in the Kitchen and says "why do I need more"! :eek:
Chris
Hello,
I'm Sorry but writing in English is difficult for me, anyway I would like to give fedback regarding the mod suggested.
I'm living in a small studio and the acoustics of the room is quite complicated, currently my system consists of: PC »» TC7520 »» Marantz PM7003 »» ELAC BS244.
I was having the following problems:
- The bass was loose and exaggerated compared with the midrange.
- The midrange seemed unfocused, without detail and separation of instruments.
Even with my old speakers and amplifier it was the same problem, I tried several op-amp's but I was never completely satisfied with the sound, since I replaced my old amp and my DYI open-bafels by the Marantz and the ELAC speakers the problem became even more evident.
I was considering buying a new DAC, because I was convinced it was the weakest link of my chain (on the room acoustics I can't do anything yet).
A few days ago I decided to try this mod, I used a pair of Mundorf M-cap 0.1uf to bypass some ordinary 4.7uf electrolytics (Used parts from other projects) and I must say that the change is huge.
Now I have detailed and tight bass, the mid-range is focused and three-dimensional, alive and with excellent detail and separation of instruments.
The only problem is that before attempting this mod I had ordered some "M-Cap ZN" (some say it is one of the most neutral cap regardless of cost) but now I'm so fond of the sound that I do not know if I want to reopen the DAC:lolsign:.
This mod has saved me a lot of money, but more than that is allowing me to hear music again with pleasure and without being obsessed with the failures of quality when playing back and thinking about changing equipment:).
Thank you all for this excellent forum
StanleyB
01-12-2010, 07:09
Hi Alexandre, nice to see you on AoS :). I am glad that the passive mod has once again shown how great a mod it is for very little money.
hi,
I had the passive mod done and is sounding very very good indeed.
I noticed that with no music playing into the DAC and the volume of my integrated amp is turn to the max, I can hear quite a lot of hiss from my speaker for both channel. But when I switch to another input of the amp, there is no hiss anymore. Could you please advise is the hiss coming from the DAC passive mod or not? :scratch: Before the mod I think with the Opamp board there wasn't hissing...if I recalled correctly.
Hi goody
The passive mod gives the Caiman higher output impedance, which will not suppress input noise in your preamp as well as with the op-amps in place. Unless you can hear hiss during music playback (unlikely), it is of no consequence.
Thanks Martin. The hiss could not be heard during music playback and had no consequence during playback.
While most time we check the quietness of the system by setting the volume to max with no music playback...Is there a way we could get rid of those hissing at all? :rolleyes:
Only by using larger capacitors, which probably won't fit unless you want to use electrolytics. Also don't forget that the gain is lower so you are having to use a higher position on the volume control.
In my case, the sound quality is so much better with the passive mod that I'm not bothered, and I get no hiss anyway :)
Hi, I m using 15uF bypass with 0.47uF caps. What are your values?
You mean to say that during no playback and the volume is set to max, you don't have any hiss at all...dead quiet? Is this your case?
Then something could be wrong with my dac, right? please let me know how to get rid of that hiss if you know..what's contributing it.
StanleyB
11-12-2010, 11:41
While most time we check the quietness of the system by setting the volume to max with no music playback...Is there a way we could get rid of those hissing at all? :rolleyes:
Realistically speaking, you need the Gator upgrade board for your particular situation.
Let me explain why I say that. The WM8716 DAC chip does not have an inbuilt analogue filter, unlike say its nearest direct equivalent, the PCM1716 as used in the TC-7520. Wolfson recommends an external low pass analogue filter after the output of the WM8716. Both the standard as well as the Gator audio board have such a filter.
The passive mod breaks all the established rules as far as filtering the audio sampling residues is concerned. The payback of that is that you'll get a near unadulterated digital to analogue output. But it has a low level unfiltered sampling noise residue. The noise is at about -80dB level, so if you turn your volume control to max you are likely to pick it up.
Thanks Stan. By adding the low pass filter after the Wolfson, would the unadulterated sound be significantly impacted or not?
StanleyB
11-12-2010, 12:08
Thanks Stan. By adding the low pass filter after the Wolfson, would the unadulterated sound be significantly impacted or not?
If you mean the active low pass filter as fitted on the Gator, then the answer is that the jury is still out on that. Existing Gator owners are in the whole still grinning from ear to ear and most have been unable to tear themselves away from the music to come and give a detailed before-and-after update.
If you mean adding a passive filter that you yourself knock up, then I would have to say that it is very likely to impact on the sound.
It's like fitting a racing exhaust on a car. You can't hide the noise, but boy do you get some extra performance or what ;).
You know, I think a little added "clean" noise can actually enhance our listening, smoothing over any slight non-linearities down at minus 80 and lower. I wonder if this is what many valve output stages/buffers do?
You mean to say that during no playback and the volume is set to max, you don't have any hiss at all...dead quiet? Is this your case?
Yes.
I have spent about 2 hours reading this whole thread. It starts off with electrolytic capacitor ($) and end with polypropylenes capacitor ($$$$$). =D Here is my very entry level setup.
Laptop>TC-7520(Fixed)>CA 340A>PSB Alpha B1
My TC-7520 used to have THS4032 for the fixed. After reading this thread, I remove the active board and inserted two 2.2uf electrolytic capacitors. It is just a normal cap. I was surprise on how this mod changes the sound. I am poor at describe sound but I love my current mod. I decided to purchase polypropylenes capacitor. Input impedance of 100k is recommended to use 0.8uf, my a340 is 40k so will be 2uf. The cap in my mind was the Claritycap ESA 2uf 630V. Is there other alternative for the brand and value I should consider?
Hi Larry,
Just a quickie, mate - when you get a minute could you add your basic location details to your proflle? This is now the requirement for all members of AoS.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I apologise. I have update my profile.
Hi Larry
2-2.2uF seems to be a good value and should suit your input impedance. We have had good results from ClarityCaps and AuriCaps so take your pick.
robyonekenoby
16-12-2010, 20:38
I wanna add my experience with passive mod on the caiman
removed the analog section and connected wm8716 exit to the rca via two big MKP film foil cap, Audyn Mcap Plus 3.3uF
Dramatic improvement in clarity, definition, smothness, 3D... every aspect improved noticeably
but
the bass became too light for my taste
With this combination the bass is stronger, better defined, rock solid, tigth, but lack that depth in the very low frequency, that was present with the opamp stage
so just for fun I bypassed those two big caps with two small rubycon 47u
the bass is back !!!
but
midrange and high are messed up :rolleyes:
in Italy we say "you can't have the bottle full and the wife drunk" .... ;)
ok
so I replaced everything with two MKP film foil, always Audyn Mcap plus, but 6.8u (I had them on another DAC)
ok, this seem a reasonable compromise
mid and high seem loosing nothing, and bass quite a bit deeper, probably 10u
would be better, but when you speak about resolution on coupling cap, less is more, I mean, the bigger the cap, the greater the attenuation and phase shift due to dielectric absorption
But what I really can't understand is why I need such a big cap value when the math tell me that 3.3u should be more than enough (my amp has a MEASURED input impedance of 44k)
a fellow here in another thread told me it could be just a matter of dac output impedance
hmm, good explanation, but a lot of people in this thread affirmed they had good result with lower capacity, 2.2 or even 1.6u
this puzzle my mind
HighFidelityGuy
17-12-2010, 17:43
hi,
I had the passive mod done and is sounding very very good indeed.
I noticed that with no music playing into the DAC and the volume of my integrated amp is turn to the max, I can hear quite a lot of hiss from my speaker for both channel. But when I switch to another input of the amp, there is no hiss anymore. Could you please advise is the hiss coming from the DAC passive mod or not? :scratch: Before the mod I think with the Opamp board there wasn't hissing...if I recalled correctly.
Hi Goody. What method of passive mod did you have done? If you've had caps wired directly between the DAC chip output and the RCA sockets then you've bypassed the Caiman's onboard muting relay. If the caps are inserted into the sockets where the opamp board used to be then you've not bypassed the muting relay. The muting relay turns off the audio output when the music is stopped and therefore prevents any hiss from getting to your amp. This could explain the hiss you're now hearing. :)
Hi Goody. What method of passive mod did you have done? If you've had caps wired directly between the DAC chip output and the RCA sockets then you've bypassed the Caiman's onboard muting relay. If the caps are inserted into the sockets where the opamp board used to be then you've not bypassed the muting relay. The muting relay turns off the audio output when the music is stopped and therefore prevents any hiss from getting to your amp. This could explain the hiss you're now hearing. :)
Hi, Thanks for your inputs. I had the passive mod without bypassing the muting relay (with caps inserted into sockets).
Hi Goody, that is really strange. With the DAC in mute mode, you shouldn't get any noise at all. It suggests that your preamp has a lot of self-noise when not loaded down with an input. If you unplug the DAC and turn the volume up (careful), do you get the same noise?
Hi Goody, that is really strange. With the DAC in mute mode, you shouldn't get any noise at all. It suggests that your preamp has a lot of self-noise when not loaded down with an input. If you unplug the DAC and turn the volume up (careful), do you get the same noise?
Hi Martin,
Yea, without the DAC at the input of the integrated amp and the volume turn up to max, there is no hissing (it's quiet).
According to Stan's response, the Wolfson WM8716 DAC chip does not have a internal filter before its output (raw output) so about -80dB sampling noise get through into my integrated amplifier when I turn the volume max without music playback.
btw does sampling noises translate to audible hissing to our ears? please advise.
Could you maybe try a different set of interconnects with different shielding? Perhaps RFI is getting in and causing noise? There should be no sampling noise from the DAC when in mute mode, i.e. no disc is playing.
StanleyB
19-12-2010, 20:38
Hi Martin,
Yea, without the DAC at the input of the integrated amp and the volume turn up to max, there is no hissing (it's quiet).
According to Stan's response, the Wolfson WM8716 DAC chip does not have a internal filter before its output (raw output) so about -80dB sampling noise get through into my integrated amplifier when I turn the volume max without music playback.
btw does sampling noises translate to audible hissing to our ears? please advise.
My response was based on the assumption that you had bypassed the mute circuit. But if you have not bypassed the mute circuit then my previous response is not valid. The DAC sampling noise etc. cannot bypass the relay when the relay is open.
I think that what you are experiencing is an impedance mismatch, which can produce a noise.
The passive mod is obviously causing you a problem, so revert back to the original board.
Could you maybe try a different set of interconnects with different shielding? Perhaps RFI is getting in and causing noise? There should be no sampling noise from the DAC when in mute mode, i.e. no disc is playing.
Hi Martin, I tried with a different set of interconnects and the noise is gone. It's quiet now.
Thank you all for helping. I am glad I can continue enjoying the passive mod. :)
Excellent, glad you're sorted.
I have tried many different caps on the passive mod :-
Black Gates 10uf
Polypropylene (Clarity Caps 1uf) (ICW 2.2uf, 3.3uf 4.7uf)
Ampohm 2.2 (monster depth charge stylee - about £20 each retail)
Nichicon Muse 47uf
Elna Silmic 2.2uf, 10uf,
Today I found the best cap for my system by a loooooong way.
Price 21p each......Jamicon 2.2uf 16v. A pathetic looking excuse for a capacitor. Looks like a Rabbit dropping. And they say you can't polish a turd.
Crazy thing this audio lark!
Tripmaster
20-12-2010, 20:42
I have tried many different caps on the passive mod :-
Black Gates 10uf
Polypropylene (Clarity Caps 1uf) (ICW 2.2uf, 3.3uf 4.7uf)
Ampohm 2.2 (monster depth charge stylee - about £20 each retail)
Nichicon Muse 47uf
Elna Silmic 2.2uf, 10uf,
Today I found the best cap for my system by a loooooong way.
Price 21p each......Jamicon 2.2uf 16v. A pathetic looking excuse for a capacitor. Looks like a Rabbit dropping. And they say you can't polish a turd.
Crazy thing this audio lark!
How much! I'm not made of money (slugs and snails and little puppies dogs tails)
robyonekenoby
20-12-2010, 22:17
Today I found the best cap for my system by a loooooong way.
Price 21p each......Jamicon 2.2uf 16v. A pathetic looking excuse for a capacitor. Looks like a Rabbit dropping. And they say you can't polish a turd.
Crazy thing this audio lark!
Very interesting...
I'm now convinced that those Audyn cap plus 6.8uF are not the best for my system, amazing details for classical, but bass, while fast and well controlled, still lack of depth, for jazz and blues I feel an overall lack of energy and warmth
also they tend to the bright side, in the end quite fatiguing listening after a while
I'm wondering if going for a bigger film & foil, like Obbligato (10-22uF) or some 'lytics
Stan stated he had best results between 22u and 47u, but I can't accept the idea of a 'lytic in the signal path
maybe that beloved reverberating bass is just a kind of distortion introduced by electrolytic caps...... :scratch:
I'm curious to read more comparison between passive mods and gator, could be my next move after Christmas holidays :eyebrows:
Hi, I wonder whether there will be any significant improvement by upgrading the clock of the digital circuit of dac? Is it feasible to do this? Has any of us tried before? Please advise.
Reid Malenfant
21-12-2010, 19:40
I don't see why a more accurate clock couldn't be fitted, there are enough of them out there after all ;) The only problem might be the power supply as the Caiman appears to only run off of a single rail DC supply & i'm not sure about aftermarket clocks :scratch: I'd have thought 5V DC would be the order of the day though.
____________________________
Just bought a Caiman + today so i'll see what all the fuss is about when it gets here ;) It'll be interesting to see how it compares to my Monarchy Audio dual 20 bit DAC when running as standard & when subtly modified :eyebrows: One or the other will find it consigned to duty of the arse end of a Theta Data Basic transport, it'll be nice to get that spinning again.
Someone will be getting some feedback in the private exhibitions section shortly :)
Caiman 2 beckons I reckon... Bigger, wider case, option to split and isolate the supplies and plenty of room for upgrading later. Could this be done economically Stan?
StanleyB
22-12-2010, 11:13
Well I am still staring at the final drawing, with various components from different suppliers under reliability test, or waiting to be tested. Only after that is completed can I begin with the first production PCB layout and see what is possible. So realistically speaking, we are still ages away from a beta sample, let alone production.
I am not going to increase the case size by more than a millimeter here or there. Empty space still cost money to create. I am mainly doing a Caiman upgrade, so I don't want to burden the final price with senseless add ons that would shock my customers with a sudden price jump. Everything has to fit inside £300, and that includes delivery.
That reminds me that I also want to upgrade the TC-7510. I used to be accused of upgrading that every week, so the last upgrade was in 2008. Enough time to allow for the next upgrade I reckon :).
Too early for details Stan, but good luck with it. :)
StanleyB
22-12-2010, 12:22
Far too early indeed. But hopefully it will be in many stockings next Christmas :).
Reid Malenfant
22-12-2010, 14:05
I don't see why a more accurate clock couldn't be fitted, there are enough of them out there after all ;) The only problem might be the power supply as the Caiman appears to only run off of a single rail DC supply & i'm not sure about aftermarket clocks :scratch: I'd have thought 5V DC would be the order of the day though.
Something tells me this is probably a no go :eyebrows: Just took a look inside & unless i missed something (though i didn't look underneath the PCBs) it looks like the clock is on board one of the ICs & probably can't be bypassed :scratch:
Time to check out the specs on the chips :doh: Not until i can be bothered though :eyebrows:
HighFidelityGuy
22-12-2010, 15:16
I wondered about the possibility of upgrading the clock a while ago but couldn't see one on the main PCB's. There's nothing under the PCB's either. Perhaps we should move discussion of this to the main 7520 mods section HERE (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3058) to avoid confusion, or create a new thread. :)
EDIT: I've made a new thread on this subject HERE (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=172455).
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3EJ2JsDjZY/TNxu-4colVI/AAAAAAAAAlo/O5h9JlQ-ObA/PassiveMod.jpg
Hi there....
I want to install this passive mod to my caiman.
my rotel RA 1062 specs are:
Preamplifier
Frequency response: 10 - 100kHz at +-3dB
Signal to noise ratio: Line level: 95dB
Input impedance: Line in: 33 kohms +/-5%
Input sensitivity: Line level: 160mV
Preamplifier output: Nominal output level: 1000mV
which caps would be useful? 47u rubycon or other?
thank´s a lot :-)
greets
vid
Hi Vid,
Start with the 47uf Rubycon bipolars and work from there (they are not bad)! Those big yellow ones were from eBay and I can sell you mine if you want to try them.
You can spend some serious dosh on different caps if you wish.
Regards
Chris
HighFidelityGuy
09-02-2011, 13:00
You could use any capacitor value between about 2.4uF and 47uF. The exact choice will depend on your budget and whether or not you care if the caps are too big to fit in the case. Some people don't mind running the DAC with the lid off and massive caps sticking out the top. There's a good calculator HERE (http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php) for working out the values. You need to put 33000 in the Ohms box and then pick a -3db Frequency based on what the info on the page says. Personally I choose much lower values of around 1Hz to ensure phase anomalies are kept well away from the audio range of 20Hz-20KHz.
If you want to spend as little as possible and still be able to put the lid on I'd recommend THESE (http://eshop.tirnaelectronics.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46&products_id=183). They have been proven to be some of the best sounding bipolar electrolytic caps that are easy to get hold of. Many people believe polypropylene or polyester film caps sound better but these are bigger and more expensive. The ClarityCap SA (http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_sa.html)range seems to get a lot of praise for being excellent value for money. So they could be a good entry into poly caps. If you want to try the ClarityCaps I would check the dimensions of the 2.6uF version and see if you think that will fit, then work your way up the uF range until you find the highest value that will fit or that you can afford.
If you fit them as shown in the photo you attached then the mod is easily reversible.
Make sure you discharge your self on something earthed at regular intervals while working in the DAC as the Wolfson DAC chips are very susceptible to static electricity damage. Also if you use bigger caps make sure the cap's legs don't short against anything else inside the DAC. Some insulating tape will prevent that.
Good luck. :)
StanleyB
09-02-2011, 14:06
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Z3EJ2JsDjZY/TNxu-4colVI/AAAAAAAAAlo/O5h9JlQ-ObA/PassiveMod.jpg
I want to install this passive mod to my caiman.
which caps would be useful? 47u rubycon or other?
thank´s a lot :-)
I recommend the yellow caps as in the picture. I have a few spare that you can have at cost if you email or PM me.
well...
thank you very much! I will test some of my mundorf´s and the rubycon.
greets from austria :-)
vid
Hi!
I am not sure how to connect the caps into the caiman
would it work´s with this parts?
http://www.conrad.at/medias/global/ce/5000_5999/5200/5260/5261/526164_BB_00_FB.EPS_250.jpg
thank you ;)
greets
vid
HighFidelityGuy
10-02-2011, 11:52
If you're just going to connect them as the yellow ones are above then you can just push the capacitor leads into the holes. You don't need any special connectors or anything.
This image explains better:
http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/capacitor.gif
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