View Full Version : Caiman passive output mod revealed
StanleyB
03-07-2010, 21:09
I have mentioned the passive output mod a few times, and here it is.
Please note that the Wm8716 DAC analogue output is only digitally filtered. The passive mod bypasses the analogue filter circuit based around the line output opamp in the Caiman. The MUTE circuit is also bypassed. So the DAC output can be a bit noisy in between tracks. This should not be a problem in most cases and on anything other than near full volume level. The mod is however easily reversible in case the results don't go with your system setup.
Now, after the disclaimer, what does this mod do? Well, if you ever wanted to know what PRaT is all about, this is a good way to get an idea. On drum kits you'll very likely to feel a kick in the floorboards on decent volume levels. The back rest of your sofa should also produce a kick in your back. Guitar and piano will sound snappier. The effects are more noticeable on a responsive amp/speaker combination. If your system is more laid back, then the passive mod might be hard to distinguish from an unmodded DAC.
The first thing to do is to identify those two tiny holes in between the ribbon cable. Use a PCB scraper of some sort to remove the track insulation so that the copper track is exposed around each of the two holes.
Next, cut the signal pin on the left and right Fixed Output socket. Use a fine snipe electronic nose set of pliers so that you don't make a mess. Make sure that you cut the right pins! The pictures are not very clear, but an experience modder would know exactly which pins are visibly cut in the picture.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/cut.jpg
StanleyB
03-07-2010, 21:15
The next thing is to fit a 47uF non-polarized capacitor between the point on the PCB that was scraped off, and the top side of the Fixed output socket. Make sure that you don't accidentally also solder back the cut pieces of the connector when you solder the cap to the connector!
Do the above for both left and right channel.
I advise the use of some sort of insulation over each leg of the caps. That will avoid any bare wire shorting against another part of the DAC. I left out the insulation in the picture so that the soldering locations are a bit better to see.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/cap.jpg
StanleyB
03-07-2010, 21:25
This mod only works on the fixed output. The variable output and headphone amp are not affected by the mod.
I have tried a number of different caps, both polarized and non-polarized. If you use polarized caps ( in case you want to try the mod but don't have any non-polarized caps) the negative end of the cap should be soldered to the Fixed output socket, and the positive end to the scrape on the PCB. A cap of 16V rating is the optimum. If you are rich enough, you can o exotic with one of the audio grade polypropylene etc. type of caps. 10uF/63V is the most I could afford to try. Maplin sells a 10uF/630V for £9.00 odd. If anyone tries them let us know if they are worth the cost...
How does this mod alter the sound?
StanleyB
04-07-2010, 09:13
It doesn't alter the sound. It's the raw unexpurgated sound directly from the horse's mouth ( read: digital to analogue conversion process) so to speak.
Nice! I'm sure some will be interested in giving this a go, its reversible incase you prefer it with the output op-amps.
I'll have a scrounge to see what caps I have
I'll stick the link to this thread in the collection of mods :)
StanleyB
04-07-2010, 10:00
Cheers Leo.
I wanted to add a 100nF cap across the 47uF in order to bring up any attenuated highs from variations in HF damping from the 47uF. But because the mod has no HF roll off filter in circuit, I decided to let the 47uF act as a bare bone HF filter without the 100nF. Others might disagree with that approach, so I mention it in case anyone wishes to try the 100nF in parallel with the 47uF.
Important addition!
The fixed output signal from the RCA sockets should be plugged into an AUX input on your amp. That's because the passive mod has a lower output by about 3dB compared to the opamp boosted output. You can use the signal in the CD input, but you'll have to turn your amp a bit higher in order to get the same average level as obtainable with the opamp in circuit.
I have my 7510 running like this. I did at first change the surface mounted op-amps on the board, but this was MUCH MUCH better.
Looks like it's time to do the Caiman too now it has the official seal of approval ;).
Cheers Stan.
StanleyB
04-07-2010, 10:37
Just be careful with the neighbours :lol:. The raw energy that is coming directly from the WM8716 analogue pins output can make the earth move. Almost every time I use my passive modded Caiman the next door neighbour comes knocking on my door. I am not making it up. It's the honest truth.
I have my 7510 running like this. I did at first change the surface mounted op-amps on the board, but this was MUCH MUCH better.
Cheers Stan.
Can you describe how it is MUCH MUCH better?
Ali Tait
04-07-2010, 12:23
Bought some of these to try this-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_bipolar.html
Got some 100nf bypass caps from epay too.
Shanedudddy2
04-07-2010, 12:23
I can describe that the most noticable aspect of the mod for me is the following:
- Less grain on bright tracks (this was a really annoying aspect before)
- Tighter Bass
- More detail on instruments.
I have huge crossover Mundorf caps lol a bit overkill and far from pretty, but does a good job =)
Can you describe how it is MUCH MUCH better?
It's going back a while since I did this mod, but as I remember it: Detail retrieval went through the roof, instrument texture and decay is breathtaking, timing is massively improved, bass goes lower, is more tuneful and better controlled (I had a bit of boom before doing this mod, partially down to my room, but this seemed to sort it out), treble is natural and airy. Oh and vocals - well they just become completely free of the speakers and project right out in front of you.
Now I've remembered all of that, I'm definitely doing the Caiman this week :lol:
Ali Tait
04-07-2010, 12:50
What caps did you use?
It has occurred to me that you could use the variable output (cut the connectors) and then you could swap between the two?
What caps did you use?
Just some Nichicon Muse electrolytics, non-bipolar ones as I happened to have them lying around. I have some bipolar ones for doing the Caiman mod though. Not sure how much difference that will make.
Ali Tait
04-07-2010, 18:09
Ok ta.
It has occurred to me that you could use the variable output (cut the connectors) and then you could swap between the two?
:)
Ali Tait
04-07-2010, 21:43
Good idea!
StanB. Is there any reason not to use the variable outputs for this mod if you don't use them?
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 07:05
It can be done.
It has occurred to me that you could use the variable output (cut the connectors) and then you could swap between the two?
Puffin,
Looking for clarity on your proposed variation to this mod that SB has documented in this thread.
Can you describe how your idea of using the variable outputs would work in practice. i.e would you just cut the signal pin on the left and right Variable Output socket and solder in the bi-polar caps to those pins, and do you need to do anything to the other pin on each Variable Output socket, and/or do you need to turn the Volume Control to full, given you are proposing to use the Variable Outputs as though they were the Fixed Output sockets.
Cheers
Frizzup:scratch:
HighFidelityGuy
05-07-2010, 09:25
I like the sound of this mod and it's along the lines of the valve buffered output mod I've recently been thinking about trying.
If this passive output mod was applied and I didn't need the variable or headphone outputs, could I remove the opamp board all together?
Also, are there any type of caps that should theoretically sound best in this application? Quite a few types have been mentioned.
Thanks. :)
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 09:37
If this passive output mod was applied and I didn't need the variable or headphone outputs, could I remove the opamp board all together?
Be the guinea pig and let us know :lol:.
Puffin,
Looking for clarity on your proposed variation to this mod that SB has documented in this thread.
Can you describe how your idea of using the variable outputs would work in practice. i.e would you just cut the signal pin on the left and right Variable Output socket and solder in the bi-polar caps to those pins, and do you need to do anything to the other pin on each Variable Output socket, and/or do you need to turn the Volume Control to full, given you are proposing to use the Variable Outputs as though they were the Fixed Output sockets.
Cheers
Frizzup:scratch:
I like your user name you can have a bad hair day everyday!:lolsign:
I will do it later today. I assume that it disables the variable output completely as I will be cutting the phono connection to the board.
I have looked inside at the PCB. on my 7510 there are 2 what look like jumpered holes in between the two ribbon cables. Do I remove the jumper on the right hand one (next to the right ribbon cable) and solder to each hole/pad/area or whatever that is left after removal of the jumper?
OR do I use the other jumpered area near the left ribbon cable for L and the right for R channel?
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 10:33
I have looked inside at the PCB. on my 7510 there are 2 what look like jumpered holes in between the two ribbon cables. Do I remove the jumper on the right hand one (next to the right ribbon cable) and solder to each hole/pad/area or whatever that is left after removal of the jumper?
OR do I use the other jumpered area near the left ribbon cable for L and the right for R channel?
:worthless:
Unfortunately I don't have my camera at present. I assumed you would know what I was talking about.
I will have to see if there are any 7510 pcb pics on here or anywhere.
HighFidelityGuy
05-07-2010, 10:42
Does this show what you mean? :):
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/7510/M2S.jpg
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 10:49
Unfortunately I don't have my camera at present. I assumed you would know what I was talking about.
Do you realize that the TC-7510 had 8 revisions? Not all of them have the same connections, and I am terrible when it comes to remembering every link on them...
But yes, thus links are the ones.
Thats OK. I have found this which may not come up that well. I could email it to and then you may be able to enlarge it. The pic shows the right hand jumper. There is another one just to it's left next to the left ribbon cable.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/Jumpers.jpg
So do I connect L to one set of links and R to the other OR
use both holes/areas on the R jumper for L&R?
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 11:00
Just go by the picture above it, which shows the two links between the ribbon cables.
But why have you not done the wire mods yet? You don't have to solder to the IC pins directly like I did.
Ali Tait
05-07-2010, 11:02
To which wire mods do you refer please Stan?
Sorry, but I am really thick. The picture shows one jumperover two holes. Do I just use this for L & R, or when you say
Just go by the picture above it, which shows the two links between the ribbon cables.
do you mean I remove the jumper that can't be seen in the pic as well?
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 11:07
Just solder the 47uF cap from each of the links to the cut pin on the fixed RAC output. No need to remove the pins.
Aaah I see. Excellent. I ought to compile a guide for idiots!
HFG. Sorry I missed your post. Yes, that was what I was referring to.
StanB. I have done the mod but it clearly doesn't like the impedance of my Pre-Amp. I remember I read somewhere that the impedance had to be a certain Ohmage. Can you let me know and I can some resistors tied to Grd. Thanks.
Rob.
StanleyB
05-07-2010, 13:21
Both Wlfson and TI recommend 10K between the RCA connector and ground. It's a starting point for the PCM1716. But without the wire mod on the TC-7510 you are not loading the analogue stage in the DAC chip correctly.
HighFidelityGuy
05-07-2010, 13:34
HFG. Sorry I missed your post. Yes, that was what I was referring to.
No probs. :)
Both Wlfson and TI recommend 10K between the RCA connector and ground. It's a starting point for the PCM1716. But without the wire mod on the TC-7510 you are not loading the analogue stage in the DAC chip correctly.
So is this 10k resistor not required in the Caiman for this passive output mod? I'm assuming it's not as you didn't mention it in the guide but I thought I better double check. :)
Thanks.
Ali Tait
05-07-2010, 17:05
Can somebody tell me what the wire mod is please?
I have done the passsive mod. I started with 47k resistors as I use a Lightspeed Attenuator and thought it might take more than 10k to get a good match. with 47k I still got some distortion and tried 100k. Bingo! spot on. It has only had a couple of hours but I can tell already that I like it. It retains the same sonic signature of the "original" i.e op-amped output, and whilst being just as detailed is less "in yer face". I find I can increase the volume without it getting too edgy. Well worth a couple of quid and if you use the variable phonos, you can switch between the two.
Can somebody tell me what the wire mod is please?
If you mean for the 7510 its maybe this? http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
Threads on mods as we know can become very, very long, with so much interest in the subject.
This thread now reads to be a mix of 7510, 7520 and Caiman mods. Getting confusing to understand which question and which reply relates to which DAC, particularly if the response does not quote the original question.
Can we please, please, help newbies like me.....can we either keep to the subject of the Caiman mod in this thread and start seperate 7510/20 threads or at least reference the particular DAC in that question and subsequent reply.
Newbie not wishing to speak out of turn to more senior members ;)
Humbly yours....::rolleyes:
Frizzup
If you mean for the 7510 its maybe this? http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
You can do this mod for just the basic PCM1716 as well.
What does it do?
The Vinyl Adventure
05-07-2010, 20:21
i have no bloody idea what im talking about so please excuse my ignorance....
instead of messing with the current outputs... couldnt you just add an extra pair?
im not thinking of doing this, im to fat handed... im just wondering for the benefit of others...
Ali Tait
05-07-2010, 20:36
If you mean for the 7510 its maybe this? http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
Yes for the 7510.Thanks Leo!
Frizzup,I think this passive mod can be done on all of Stan's dacs,hence all the questions.
i have no bloody idea what im talking about so please excuse my ignorance....
instead of messing with the current outputs... couldnt you just add an extra pair?
im not thinking of doing this, im to fat handed... im just wondering for the benefit of others...
Yes, if there is room.
Stan, you can get Elna II's rated 47uF16V, would they be a likely candidates for the passive mod or do you need big brutal polyprops http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/3750.gif . Once I get my regulators in etc I'll try the Elna's.
Cheers Andy
The Vinyl Adventure
05-07-2010, 21:34
Yes, if there is room.
Does that count as my first vaguely useful bit of input into a diy thread?
Does that count as my first vaguely useful bit of input into a diy thread?
No.
Does this count for mine?
;)
The Vinyl Adventure
05-07-2010, 22:50
Cheeky fecker ;)
I was quite proud of my self there... Well kinda :lol:
Yes for the 7510.Thanks Leo!
Frizzup,I think this passive mod can be done on all of Stan's dacs,hence all the questions.
Cheers Ali Tait,
Newbie that I am I can honestly say that doing a modification is easier than working out if the modification being discussed can be applied to my Caiman :eyebrows:
Frizzup
StanleyB
06-07-2010, 07:07
I try to follow the KISS principle when devising most mods. I am fully aware that at this stage in life most people just want to buy a DAC and not touch a soldering iron afterwards. But it is clear that I have been encouraging a lot of people to do a bit of hobbyist soldering and getting them to enjoy their own handy work. Which other company offers such an after market satisfaction service:lolsign:.
Ali Tait
06-07-2010, 07:20
Very true Stan.There are some of us though,that just can't help fiddlin' !
Ali Tait
06-07-2010, 07:23
Cheers Ali Tait,
Newbie that I am I can honestly say that doing a modification is easier than working out if the modification being discussed can be applied to my Caiman :eyebrows:
Frizzup
Aye,the threads get very convoluted and confusing after a while.Best just to send the dac to Tirna if you don't want to die of old age trying to read through all the threads!
I try to follow the KISS principle when devising most mods. I am fully aware that at this stage in life most people just want to buy a DAC and not touch a soldering iron afterwards. But it is clear that I have been encouraging a lot of people to do a bit of hobbyist soldering and getting them to enjoy their own handy work. Which other company offers such an after market satisfaction service:lolsign:.
With you all the way Stanley. Self taught to solder after acquiring a Caiman and following this forum, now been doing mods on other equipment such as my Rega Mira 3. I've learnt a new skill, started a new hobby, and enjoying my music even more for minimal cost. Its a great product....plus....
Now just need try this passive output mod this weekend, done everything else, still prefer TH4032 as my main op amp over 826, 4562, 2132 etc. Line-out op amp rolling is then a thing of the past
Frizzup
I try to follow the KISS principle when devising most mods. I am fully aware that at this stage in life most people just want to buy a DAC and not touch a soldering iron afterwards. But it is clear that I have been encouraging a lot of people to do a bit of hobbyist soldering and getting them to enjoy their own handy work. Which other company offers such an after market satisfaction service:lolsign:.
You, Leo, and your TC-7510 got me started Stan. Shame on you! :lolsign:
Now I'm addicted to it. If my wife knew you were responsible I'm sure you'd be getting a nasty email. :spank:
I'm just kidding. You do more than just your customers a service. :youtheman:
I guess there are worse hobbies I could have, like chronic drug use or something. :lol:
Does that count as my first vaguely useful bit of input into a diy thread?
Don't sell yourself short, Hamish. There's always the blue Techie... :)
Can somebody tell me what the wire mod is please?
I keep asking but no answer :(
Would I be right in saying that it shortens the signal path?
I keep asking but no answer :(
Would I be right in saying that it shortens the signal path?
Is this the one?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=126498&postcount=450
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 10:45
I keep asking but no answer :(
Would I be right in saying that it shortens the signal path?
I think this "wire mod" stuff is one of the things that's been confused by the addition of 7510 details in this thread. From what I remember Stan asked a 7510 owner why he hadn't done the wire mod, so that might not be relevant to the 7520 or Caiman. There are lots of mods for the 7510 that don't apply to the 7520 or Caiman.
There is however a wire mod for the 7520 and Caiman that shortens the path between the DAC chip and opamp board. This wouldn't really apply if you were doing the passive output mod though, as the opamps aren't in the circuit in that case. However, the opamps would still be in use for the headphone and variable output, so I guess it could be possible to apply both mods if you still wanted to use either of these outputs with the benefit of the shortened signal path.
That probably hasn't helped much but at least I tried. :cool:
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 10:48
Is this the one?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=126498&postcount=450
Sadly, No.
The wire mod that James linked to is the only one for the 7520 or Caiman at this time. So you must be thinking of one for the 7510. I can't remember which DAC you have but if you have a 7510 then perhaps this is what you're after:
http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
This is the one I was referring to..
http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
For the 7510
I was wondering what it did?
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 10:50
This is the one I was referring to..
http://www.beresford.me/others/7510mods.html
For the 7510
I was wondering what it did?
Lol, I beat you to it^^ :ner: :)
StanleyB
06-07-2010, 10:51
It's absolutely correct :). Have you thought of spending less time on AoS reading about mods, than to actually power up your system and listening to them:eyebrows:? I have discovered a lot of things lately. Like the fact that one of the tunes from Gabrielle was recorded in mono. Or that one of the tracks on the Marvin Gaye Symphony album was not his voice at all.
Lol, I beat you to it^^ :ner: :)
:eek:
It's absolutely correct :). Have you thought of spending less time on AoS reading about mods, than to actually power up your system and listening to them:eyebrows:? I have discovered a lot of things lately. Like the fact that one of the tunes from Gabrielle was recorded in mono. Or that one of the tracks on the Marvin Gaye Symphony album was not his voice at all.
I will rush off and listen once I know what this mod is designed to do.
I am starting to lose the will to mod! :lolsign:
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 12:10
It's absolutely correct :). Have you thought of spending less time on AoS reading about mods, than to actually power up your system and listening to them:eyebrows:? I have discovered a lot of things lately. Like the fact that one of the tunes from Gabrielle was recorded in mono. Or that one of the tracks on the Marvin Gaye Symphony album was not his voice at all.
Ah but perhaps some of us have the forum narrated to us by our computers through our Caiman's. I bet you didn't think of that. ;) :lol:
You do make a good point though. I'm quite lucky in that I can keep the forum open most of the day while I'm at work. I also do most of my modding at work during lunch. I tend not to use the forum during the evenings so much, that's listening and viewing time. It's important to keep a healthy balance. :)
Ali Tait
06-07-2010, 12:19
Ok,glad that's been cleared up! Caps should be waiting when I get home,so the dac will get the wire mods and the passive mods in one go.
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 12:25
I've just taken delivery of some Nichicon Muse caps, so hopefully I'll be able to try this out some time this week. I've also ordered a fiberglass pen which I'm hoping will do the job of removing the PCB coating. Hopefully that will arrive soon.
How has I missed this thread? :scratch:
I am going to, right now, dig out my soldering iron and some spare caps and give this mod a go.
Just have to decide which caps to go with.
Bi-polar Rubycon ones or Elna Silmic II ones? Time to rumage through my parts bins I think. :eek:
Knock yourself out guys, use whatever caps you have, they'll all sound different ;)maybe worth comparing some too, Just be sure to insert polarised types in the right way
I've got a pair of Arcotronics MKP's which I'm going to try, bloody things are not exactly small though :lol:
Ali Tait
06-07-2010, 18:29
There Mundorfs are huge,not sure if they are going to fit!
You're right Leo,it'll be like coupling caps in a valve amp,they'll all sound different.
My passive mod with 47uf Nichicon Muse and 100k resistors
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/Mugshots2014.jpg
Just finished the mod, as seem below:
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4917/p1030189u.jpg
I have used the variable output as the chosen output.
Have yet to listen to the difference it has made, but hope to have a good old listen soon.
Hi James,
How's the new case for the Caiman doing? Unless I've missed it, I don't believe you've posted any pictures of it completed :)
Marco.
Thinking about it (not tried the mod yet), it seems that the results should sound a lot better with the left op-amp removed from the board. Otherwise would there would be a combination of active and passive output?
Andrew
Hi James,
How's the new case for the Caiman doing? Unless I've missed it, I don't believe you've posted any pictures of it completed :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Unfortunately I have not been able to progress any more on the case yet. I have 90% of the parts sitting here waiting to be assembled.
All I really need to get going is the front and rear panels for the case. Am just waiting for enough spare money in the kitty to get these made as they are likely to be the most expensive parts of the build by quite some distance.
Am also thinking of holding back a little longer so I can perform another mod at the same time the Caiman is transplanted across, but this mod will likely cost ~£100-£150 so am waiting a tad longer so I can do it all in one go.
Am off on holiday in August so priorities are elsewhere at the moment, after that though things will progress. :eyebrows:
Will keep you posted.
Ali Tait
06-07-2010, 20:38
Thinking about it (not tried the mod yet), it seems that the results should sound a lot better with the left op-amp removed from the board. Otherwise would there would be a combination of active and passive output?
Andrew
No,because the pins connecting board to rca's are cut.
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 20:45
I've just finished my passive mod with some Nichicon Muse caps. They were a bit tricky to fit around the Elna's but I got there in the end. I must say it was worth the effort. I'm hearing improvements across the board. Most notably in the clarity/detail and dynamics which have both improved but also in the stereo image. I'm finding I can hear the leading and trailing ends of notes and beats more clearly, with drums having noticeably more attack and punch. Bass also drops lower. It was a real struggle to tear myself away. :eek:
The best bit of all though is that I've got the day off tomorrow and Thu, so guess what I'll be doing. :eyebrows:
I can also confirm that with this mod in place (providing you don't need the variable or headphone outputs) you can remove the entire opamp board. So that's a whole bunch of components removed.
The only downsides I've found are that I've now got a little harshness in the treble and the fixed output level hasn't been reduced by quite as much as I'd hoped. The harshness is similar to what I found after I'd first installed the Elna caps but this gradually subsided over a couple of weeks, so hopefully the same will happen here. As for the output level, I think I need to reduce this by about 3dB, so has anyone got any suggestions on how to achieve this with an internal mod?
Hi James,
Am off on holiday in August so priorities are elsewhere at the moment, after that though things will progress.
Will keep you posted.
Please do, as I am very interested in this, and so should Stan be, as I've always said that the Caiman should have a quality case to match its quality internals! ;)
Enjoy your holiday when it comes :cool:
Marco.
I can also confirm that with this mod in place (providing you don't need the variable or headphone outputs) you can remove the entire opamp board. So that's a whole bunch of components removed.
Does this mean the 12V reg is not required any more or are there chips on the main board that need it?
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 21:58
Does this mean the 12V reg is not required any more or are there chips on the main board that need it?
I wondered that as well. I honestly don't know. Perhaps Stan could shed some light on this?
StanleyB
06-07-2010, 22:19
Does this mean the 12V reg is not required any more or are there chips on the main board that need it?
Are you suggesting there are no other ICs on the various PCBs that need power?
Are you suggesting there are no other ICs on the various PCBs that need power?
Well.....now that I think about it the 12V presumably feeds the 5V so it will be needed. What I was thinking was that all the remaining chips may just need 5V but of course the cascaded regs will remove a lot of noise so even if only 5V is needed the 12V will improve noise performance.
StanleyB
06-07-2010, 22:41
Which inputs are you guys using on your amp? The CD or an AUX? And how is the mod affecting the turn on the volume dial compared to the unmodded volume level?
HighFidelityGuy
06-07-2010, 23:06
Which inputs are you guys using on your amp? The CD or an AUX? And how is the mod affecting the turn on the volume dial compared to the unmodded volume level?
I use a passive "preamp" so all it's inputs are the same. I've found that I can turn the volume dial up a bit higher with the passive output mod. But not as high as I could when I used the active output in combination with a 10dB attenuator. So at my usual listening level my volume control is now at about 11 o'clock. With the active output and attenuator it was at 12 o'clock. So I could do with loosing a few dB to get back to that optimum setting.
Shanedudddy2
06-07-2010, 23:21
Just wondering..what is the normal output impedance of the Beresford caiman and does this mod change the output impedance? Please let me know, cheers.
I've just finished my passive mod with some Nichicon Muse caps. They were a bit tricky to fit around the Elna's but I got there in the end. I must say it was worth the effort. I'm hearing improvements across the board. Most notably in the clarity/detail and dynamics which have both improved but also in the stereo image. I'm finding I can hear the leading and trailing ends of notes and beats more clearly, with drums having noticeably more attack and punch. Bass also drops lower. It was a real struggle to tear myself away. :eek:
The best bit of all though is that I've got the day off tomorrow and Thu, so guess what I'll be doing. :eyebrows:
I can also confirm that with this mod in place (providing you don't need the variable or headphone outputs) you can remove the entire opamp board. So that's a whole bunch of components removed.
The only downsides I've found are that I've now got a little harshness in the treble and the fixed output level hasn't been reduced by quite as much as I'd hoped. The harshness is similar to what I found after I'd first installed the Elna caps but this gradually subsided over a couple of weeks, so hopefully the same will happen here. As for the output level, I think I need to reduce this by about 3dB, so has anyone got any suggestions on how to achieve this with an internal mod?
I'm curious to hear your impressions when trying this with a film cap (not a crazy Mundorf). What are those ugly yellow ones from China? They are cheaper than Muse and I bet they would do better for this type application.
StanleyB
07-07-2010, 07:21
The harshness in the treble is an obvious sign that that cap needs burning in. You can speed up the process by swapping them over with to on the aedio PCB that are already burnt in. It will also give you a chance to experience right away why I recommend that the DAC undergoes a burn in period from new. Few believe in burn in, but my DACs are possibly prime examples that demonstrate the process.
Anyone with a high end DAC or CD player and who have done this mod on the Ciaman? It might be worth your while doing a side by side comparison. I doubt you can get better from any opamp or discrete output stage based DAC or CDP in a direct shoot out with the Caiman.
Ali Tait
07-07-2010, 07:21
Crazy Mundorf? They were only about £3.70 each.
StanleyB
07-07-2010, 07:37
I hope to start work on a mod that will go directly from the passive output to the headphone amp chip, and that I can use to get even more out of the headamp section. I have tried it on my externally mounted headamp PCB with some seriously amazing results. My Sennheiser HD800 and Denon AH-D7000 are really singing now. The HD650 and K701 are now beyond recognition. Unfortunately my lab has been knocked down and the builders are busy building me a new and bigger office and lab. So I am reduced to using a bit of space in a corner of the warehouse. What a way to treat nearly £3K of headphones just to find the latest burning hot mod :lolsign:.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/testing.jpg
Can anyone who has done the "wire" mod tell me what they think of having the 5v direct to the chip pin.
Just wondering..what is the normal output impedance of the Beresford caiman and does this mod change the output impedance? Please let me know, cheers.
I'm bumping this for you because I reckon it's important too. Not so much with the 47K+ available on many valve input impedances, but many modern ss aux/CD inputs with only 10 - 25K available.
I've a sneaky suspicion the output impedance may actually be lower, but await Stan's reply please....
StanleyB
07-07-2010, 12:02
1K. Yes. Don't install the mod if you are concerned about the impedance change.
Shanedudddy2
07-07-2010, 12:09
A bit more information would be great. What does it change it to? a rough figure would be great, is there anyway to lower this...I am guessing not?
StanleyB
07-07-2010, 13:14
A bit more information would be great. What does it change it to? a rough figure would be great, is there anyway to lower this...I am guessing not?
I haven't got a clue mate. If you are unhappy about the lack of more information, don't attempt the mod. Stick to what is known.
Ali Tait
07-07-2010, 14:07
Just try it and see what happens.If you don't like the results it's easy to reverse.
Can anything like the passive output mod be added to parts of the variable circuit to gain some of the advantages. I use the Caiman as a preamp so unfortunately cannot go with the fixed outputs. I have done the wire mod and resistor already though.
Regards
Chris
Ali Tait
07-07-2010, 14:24
Resistor?
Best see the Caiman Mod thread for the resistor mod. Shame to repeat it here.
Regards
Ali Tait
07-07-2010, 15:08
I have a 7510,so don't know if it's relevant.
I decided to make a test jig which just plugs in instead of the active audio board, I did it like this mainly as temporary to allow easy and quick swapping of the caps, it also goes through the onboard relay same as the active board
I also refitted the stock tans etc around the dac until I can get the smaller Silmic II's. the ones I fitted was a little big
The passive mod will have varying results depending on your kit mainly what the dac see's on the output, things like capacitive loads , long interconnects etc may influence things more than with the active audioboard Watch out for things like distortion or clipping.
The blue caps in the pic are Epcos polyester , the polypropylenes I tried first are just huge :mental:
I'm going to have a scrounge to see what others I have, the sound so far is smoother, less forward . Bass seems deeper
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1070433.jpg
I decided to make a test jig which just plugs in instead of the active audio board, I did it like this mainly as temporary to allow easy and quick swapping of the caps, it also goes through the onboard relay same as the active board
I also refitted the stock tans etc around the dac until I can get the smaller Silmic II's. the ones I fitted was a little big
The passive mod will have varying results depending on your kit mainly what the dac see's on the output, things like capacitive loads , long interconnects etc may influence things more than with the active audioboard Watch out for things like distortion or clipping.
The blue caps in the pic are Epcos polyester , the polypropylenes I tried first are just huge :mental:
I'm going to have a scrounge to see what others I have, the sound so far is smoother, less forward . Bass seems deeper
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/P1070433.jpg
Are these the two 10uf caps you are playing with ?
Those blue ones in the picture are 10uf polyester , I've a few other types to try yet, some electrolytics etc
Polypropylene sounded better than the blue polyesters but their 40mm diameter
What difference have you found from replacing the original caps?
What difference have you found from replacing the original caps?
you mean the tants around the dac ? I found the Silmics a little coloured and over warm sounding for my taste .The Silmics I fitted had brown and gold sleeve where as the lower voltage ones seen on this forum are white and brown . They may be exactly the same :scratch: I want to try some lower voltage brown and white just to be sure.
No Sorry I meant the 10uf's
No Sorry I meant the 10uf's
Sorry I must be confused :lol: Its hard to explain things by text so you'll have to let me know if I'm not very clear:o
For the passive output mod I have only tried two different types of caps so far, first was big polypropylenes and the second was those blue polyester types.
10-47uf should be ok to use
The next thing is to fit a 47uF non-polarized capacitor between the point on the PCB that was scraped off, and the top side of the Fixed output socket. Make sure that you don't accidentally also solder back the cut pieces of the connector when you solder the cap to the connector!
Do the above for both left and right channel.
I advise the use of some sort of insulation over each leg of the caps. That will avoid any bare wire shorting against another part of the DAC. I left out the insulation in the picture so that the soldering locations are a bit better to see.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/cap.jpg
So Leo, are the blue caps your version of the passive mod as described by Stan here?
So Leo, are the blue caps your version of the passive mod as described by Stan here?
Yes, same mod I just implemented it a little differently to Stan, my version is just temporary for easy comparing of various caps.
I've not tried those 47uf grey caps in the passive mod yet
Thanks.
No probs :)
I've now fitted some Blackgate NX Hi-Q, these sound a lot different
Okay guys, before you get your soldering irons out, leo's post (number 106) inspired me to remove the op-amp board and directly insert the 47uF caps into the PIN3A socket in the board underneath.
http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Modified-7520.jpg
From back to front of PIN3A (actually called "PIN3B" on the lower board) the connections are:
o Cap A +ve
o Cap A -ve
o no connection
o Cap B -ve
o Cap B +ve
I happened to find I had some spare 16V Blackgate 47uF (FK Series) - while I've previously had a rough time breaking in BGs in valve amps in the past, these are starting to improve quite rapidly (15 mins now).
The great thing about doing it this way is that I can swap in/out caps to find my favourite - probably a better final result than sticking with the first or second iteration that's been soldered in. Also better for the resale value when upgrading to any lovely future recipe exiting Stan's front door :)
Just using headphones, but the sound is already more "direct" and far better bass. Also starting to get some more texture to the sound. The volume setting on my amp had to be adjusted from 73/100 to 90/100.
Might consider making a standalone headphone board. Anyone know the name of the PIN3A and PIN4A connectors?
Andrew
Nice one Andrew, I was going to do the same , its certainly easier for normal sized caps
Infact I got a pair of 47uf 16v BG FK's which I'll try next.
Nice one Andrew, I was going to do the same , its certainly easier for normal sized caps
Infact I got a pair of 47uf 16v BG FK's which I'll try next.
I'm still listening and an hour-in, drums are really now sounding like drums - some heft, body and weight. Rhythm Guitar on Freebird now sounds a lot like it does when ploughing a diamond through a black disk - it didn't get anywhere close before, even with just the fantastic tirna mods (which are still very much relevant).
Andrew
I just put the FK's in :lol: Didn't like the NX Hi Q's, very soft so we'll see how the FK's go.
I am betting that leo's eyes are bulging right now with how good it is ;)
Right now I am in awe - the BGs are still improving. On top of the earlier improvements I'm hearing more natural detailed reverb on Magical Mystery Tour and a complex and more juicy tone.
Andrew
Crazy Mundorf? They were only about £3.70 each.
Haha, sorry. When I hear the name I automatically think about those Silver/Gold ones. I forget they have a wide range. ;)
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 06:43
I had some of those as coupling caps in one of my valve amps.They were good in some ways,but you could accuse them of being all top and bottom with little in between.
I had some of those as coupling caps in one of my valve amps.They were good in some ways,but you could accuse them of being all top and bottom with little in between.
Wow Ali, you sure seemed to have tried every cap out there. That must mean I think you're crazy! :lol:
Just kidding!! Of course! You're just doing what I wish I could do: open all frontiers. To boldly go where no man has gone before... Hopefully before I'm 60. :lolsign:
Well, like I said before, if any of you cap collectors want to get rid of some surplus let me know. I don't care that they are used. Just be honest and fair!
Currently looking for oilers or oil-like; .22 - .68uF, 400v or more.
I found the Silmics a little coloured and over warm sounding for my taste .The Silmics I fitted had brown and gold sleeve where as the lower voltage ones seen on this forum are white and brown .
Interesting, Leo. Mine are all the brown/gold variety and I don't find them overly warm except with the AD826. This is probably why I now prefer the LM4562 as it seems to have the ideal balance.
I may try the DAC direct output mod next, although I'm slightly concerned about the lack of muting relay giving strange sounds through my system. I tend to run at high levels and don't need a woofer in the face.
I am betting that leo's eyes are bulging right now with how good it is ;)
Right now I am in awe - the BGs are still improving. On top of the earlier improvements I'm hearing more natural detailed reverb on Magical Mystery Tour and a complex and more juicy tone.
Andrew
I've not had chance to have a good listen yet, I'll leave them running in when I go to work
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 07:55
Wow Ali, you sure seemed to have tried every cap out there. That must mean I think you're crazy! :lol:
Just kidding!! Of course! You're just doing what I wish I could do: open all frontiers. To boldly go where no man has gone before... Hopefully before I'm 60. :lolsign:
Well, like I said before, if any of you cap collectors want to get rid of some surplus let me know. I don't care that they are used. Just be honest and fair!
Currently looking for oilers or oil-like; .22 - .68uF, 400v or more.
Mad? Oh yes,we're all mad here,didn't you know? Some more than others of course....
I've by no means tried them all,but by far the best I've come across are SCR teflons.They are seriously pricy though.
Interesting, Leo. Mine are all the brown/gold variety and I don't find them overly warm except with the AD826. This is probably why I now prefer the LM4562 as it seems to have the ideal balance.
I may try the DAC direct output mod next, although I'm slightly concerned about the lack of muting relay giving strange sounds through my system. I tend to run at high levels and don't need a woofer in the face.
Yes, I guess its why we have to try these things out isn't it :) Could be because we use different regulation or something or maybe because my Silmics was much higher voltage, dunno yet tbh, I'm willing to try the lower voltage ones just to be sure
I don't think the passive mod will suite everybody but its easy to try and put back .
BTW if you try it the same as me or easier still the same as Andrew you get the muting relay in the circuit , you can just pull the audioboard out and stick the caps in the socket. If you look you'll see the relay, its wired to the output of that socket , if you do it the same as stans pic your bypassing the relay altogether .
Mad? Oh yes,we're all mad here,didn't you know? Some more than others of course....
I've by no means tried them all,but by far the best I've come across are SCR teflons.They are seriously pricy though.
I've been posting quite a lot here lately. Perhaps I'm going mad too. :lol:
I often wonder what my wife thinks when she comes home to find me hunched over a pcb with a trail of smoke coming up. Sometimes while I'm at work I think about what I'm going to do to my audio, then just as soon I get home I get started on it. If that's not mad I don't know what is. :mental:
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 08:10
Yep.You've got it bad.
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 08:14
Yes, I guess its why we have to try these things out isn't it :) Could be because we use different regulation or something or maybe because my Silmics was much higher voltage, dunno yet tbh, I'm willing to try the lower voltage ones just to be sure
I don't think the passive mod will suite everybody but its easy to try and put back .
BTW if you try it the same as me or easier still the same as Andrew you get the muting relay in the circuit , you can just pull the audioboard out and stick the caps in the socket. If you look you'll see the relay, its wired to the output of that socket , if you do it the same as stans pic your bypassing the relay altogether .
Leo,a friend on another forum tried various caps in a diy dac he'd built,the upshot of which was that the high voltage caps did not sound good at all used at the low voltages in the dac,so your assuption may be correct.I'll be interested in your findings.
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 08:17
If you do the mod like James or Leo and remove or replace the audio PCB, then the muting circuit will operate as normal, and the variable output will also be passive.
I've been posting quite a lot here lately. Perhaps I'm going mad too. :lol:
I often wonder what my wife thinks when she comes home to find me hunched over a pcb with a trail of smoke coming up. Sometimes while I'm at work I think about what I'm going to do to my audio, then just as soon I get home I get started on it. If that's not mad I don't know what is. :mental:
Welcome to the madness club :eyebrows:
egarding using too high a cap voltage. I'm sure I read somewhere recently that you shouldn't go more than a third higher the regular voltage, so if the rail is 15V, then 25V is the absolute limit for correct working.
On the other hand, running a continuous flat out 37V rail with 40V caps may not be a long-term reliable thing to do either. My Crowns had (then) computer grade supply 40V caps running in a circuit which was locally regulated at 30V (max raw DC voltage is around 33V) and after 35 years these caps were still well within spec, albeit around +5% tops by then.
BTW if you try it the same as me or easier still the same as Andrew you get the muting relay in the circuit , you can just pull the audioboard out and stick the caps in the socket. If you look you'll see the relay, its wired to the output of that socket , if you do it the same as stans pic your bypassing the relay altogether .
Yes, I saw that and will try it as it is easy to put the Caiman back to original spec when required. Now where did I put those spare caps...
I often wonder what my wife thinks when she comes home to find me hunched over a pcb with a trail of smoke coming up. Sometimes while I'm at work I think about what I'm going to do to my audio, then just as soon I get home I get started on it. If that's not mad I don't know what is. :mental:
I can relate to that... you're normal :lol:
Andrew
Yep.You've got it bad.
My worst fears confirmed by the experts! :D
Welcome to the madness club :eyebrows:
Actually I'm quite honored to hear that, whether you are serious or not. Like I said before, there's a hell of a lot of other hobbies one could have, and not learn a damn thing other than piss money away. Which my wife is well aware of. And I know she enjoys good sound too, just not quite as fanatical about it as I am, which is part of my personality anyways.
CHEERS! :champagne:
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 09:42
Yep,I could be down the pub every night,drinking and chasing women.There are worse hobbies than this!
Tripmaster
08-07-2010, 10:20
Yep,I could be down the pub every night,drinking and chasing women.There are worse hobbies than this!
That does sound appealing though :cool: :)
Got to say, with this mod and using the Black Gate FKs I was seriously in danger of getting to sleep too late for my 6:30am start this morning.
The effect of this mod is not to be underestimated. The resulting sound is stratospheric - maybe (with its Tirna mods included) reaching Akurate DS territory (going by audio memory).
Andrew
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 12:20
The resulting sound is stratospheric - maybe (with its Tirna mods included) reaching Akurate DS territory (going by audio memory)
Don't give Hamish a heart attack;).
Got to say, with this mod and using the Black Gate FKs I was seriously in danger of getting to sleep too late for my 6:30am start this morning.
The effect of this mod is not to be underestimated. The resulting sound is stratospheric - maybe (with its Tirna mods included) reaching Akurate DS territory (going by audio memory).
Andrew
And I thought once my Caiman arrives next week I would be leaving it alone......
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 13:10
And I thought once my Caiman arrives next week I would be leaving it alone......
Leave it alone. The mod is only reasonably suitable for those who want high-end sound on a shoestring budget, and know which end to hold a soldering iron. You fail on the soldering iron test:lol:.
And I thought once my Caiman arrives next week I would be leaving it alone......
Stanley please step in if I am off the mark, but if my memory serves me correctly the Beresford house sound could be described as on the "stratospheric" side to begin with, right?
I'd give it at least 2 weeks run-in time before even considering it. ;)
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 13:34
This only applies to the modded Caiman. If you add the Murata regs and a good linear PSU I very much doubt you find a better sounding DAC below a couple of grands. No amount of opamp swapping (including discrete opamps) will ever better the raw audio out of a decent voltage output DAC.
The new mods appear to do away with the variable out and if so is a stand alone preamp the way to go now? I thought that we all thought that the Caiman as a pre/DAC was best directly into a power amp.
Getting a bit lost with the latest mods I am afraid.
Regards
Chris
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 14:20
I guess it would depend on your setup.I use a WAD Pre2,and find my Beresford sounds better through this than driving the amp direct.
Thanks to Stan for brining another interesting mod to the forum.
I implemented the output mod earlier today using a pair of 16v 47uF Blackgates, I noted there's only 2.5v DC across these caps so a 6.3v cap would be sufficient.
The results are interesting and a bit of a mixed bag for me...the good news is I'm liking the increased clarity and detail, I didn't think it was possible to get more from this great little DAC or 16bit/44.1Khz for that matter so it just goes to show what's on those silver disks. The improvement is across the board, top to bottom, Bass is no deeper though just more controlled and tuneful.
One other improvement is dynamics, listening to some well known tracks where I would be reaching for the volume control to turns things up to get the highs has become a dangerous exercise! I'm having to back off the volume somewhat as the contrast between high and low seems to be greater, Hem - The Fire Thief is one such track as is Angel by Sarah McLachlan...
The downside is I've detected on some tracks and with some female vocals a hardening of tone and a slight edge, this could be the new mod opening the window on the recording more coupled with the caps needing more hours on them.....another thought is I'm using Stan's upgraded Caiman PSU and maybe this mod calls out for a good linear supply.....something I'll look into.
Overall I'm happy but I have some concerns on some material that was OK before...
HighFidelityGuy
08-07-2010, 16:15
The new mods appear to do away with the variable out and if so is a stand alone preamp the way to go now? I thought that we all thought that the Caiman as a pre/DAC was best directly into a power amp.
Getting a bit lost with the latest mods I am afraid.
Regards
Chris
It is possible to implement the passive output mod while still maintaining the variable output. Look back a page or two to see how.
I'd give it at least 2 weeks run-in time before even considering it. ;)
I'd definitely agree with this. The Elna caps take at least two weeks to run in. They cause some harshness in the top end before that. The caps used in the passive mod will also go through the same process. So it's best to let mods run in before trying something new to make sure you like the results of each mod.
The downside is I've detected on some tracks and with some female vocals a hardening of tone and a slight edge, this could be the new mod opening the window on the recording more coupled with the caps needing more hours on them.....another thought is I'm using Stan's upgraded Caiman PSU and maybe this mod calls out for a good linear supply.....something I'll look into.
I've also noticed this on some female vocals. I think it's partly to do with the passive mod allowing you to hear the recording more faithfully but also due to the caps not being run in yet. I think you'll find the sound will get smoother over the next week or two. Swapping to a good linear supply will also help as I found doing this removed some harshness.
Covenant
08-07-2010, 17:03
Is there any benefit for choosing a more upmarket capacitor? I am thinking of the one Marco recommended-Clarity I think it was called.
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 17:27
We are in unchartered territory here Jerry. I myself have just ordered two of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10UF-160V-DC-CAPACITOR-/360012654775?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item53d26d28b7) in order to try out a solid cap instead of an electrolytic. I expect a loss in bass though with the drop in capacitance from 47uF.
I have a couple of Sanyo Os-Con polymer electrolytics and Wima MKS2 film capacitors on their way, will evaluate them and report my findings.
Clarity Caps are made by ICW. You can get free samples. I got some (although it was a few years ago) and they had my name printed on them!
They are very good IMO
I think that the Soniqs sold by World Designs are the same.
I expect a loss in bass though with the drop in capacitance from 47uF.
It depends on the input impedance of your preamp. Mine is 47k so a drop to 22uF for the WIMAs should be fine, and even your 10uF polypropylenes (I assume, that's what they look like) would be ok. Are you driving a significantly lower input impedance?
f = 1 / (2 * Pi * R * C) to calculate the corner frequency, assuming low output impedance of the DAC chip.
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 17:38
One problem with using film caps here is size,there's not a lot of room,but yes,it's like coupling caps in valve amps,they all sound different.There's a lot of scope here for tuning the sound of the dac to suit your own taste.The Clarity Caps are very good-as coupling caps in a valve amp-but they are rated at 630v,and from what I've heard,high voltage caps don't work very well at the voltages in the dac.I've bought some of these to try-
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_bipolar.html
These are quite large at 25 by 38mm.Haven't fitted them yet as I'm waiting for some 100nF caps to bypass these with.
But really,there are lots of different caps you could try here.Buy a few different ones and experiment.
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 17:41
I suspect film caps of some type will be best,but good ones of this value would not be cheap.
StanleyB
08-07-2010, 18:12
It's weird how the Caiman defies the law of diminishing returns. I can't think of a cheaper 'bangs for bucks' mod on any DAC right now.
Ali Tait
08-07-2010, 18:35
You could send me a free Caiman! :lolsign:
I have a couple of Sanyo Os-Con polymer electrolytics and Wima MKS2 film capacitors on their way, will evaluate them and report my findings.
Oscons work well in digital supply decoupling applications but in the signal path I've always without exception found them poor, dull and grey sounding, never coming on song, this coming from bitter experience! YMMV but I think you'll waste a lot of burn in hours....
Ooh, I found a spare pair of Nichicon MUSE bipolar caps. They're inserted now, having a listen and letting them burn in.
Neal - I've had great results with Os-Cons in the past, must admit not as coupling caps. I thought it was worth the punt.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8070/8223563594_1ce605aa3b_b.jpg
Well for me so far the 47uf FK's are the ones ;) Their fast, detailed and have the lowest distortion out of the ones I've tried , in comparison the polypropylenes and polyester sounded quite strained , excuse the description but they sounded plasticy in comparison to the FK's :rolleyes: The BG NX Hi-Q's was too soft. I tried a couple of polarised Nichicon FG's but these was sharp almost glassy in the high's . I've not tried the non polar Nichicons or Rubycons here yet
A note of warning, be very cautious with polymer based caps, these do tend to be electrically leaky so can give some unpleasant results used as coupling
BTW, the caps (TC1,TC4) going to pins 11 and 18 of the dac chip internal bias have quite an influence on the sound especially with the passive out mod, folks with the stock tants finding the sound a little bright can try changing those to something like Silmics , BG's, Nichicons etc if they wish.
I've now fitted a pair of used 10uf BG N's here and will have a good listen when its had chance to settle down, oh I had one spare used 100uf 25v BG FK so decided to stick that on part of the dacs decoupling (replacing the stock electrolytic TC1 ) I can go back to the stock caps easy enough if they don't suit
Hi Stan,
Just out of curiosity, did this new mod come to you by chance, or from experiments towards a more streamlined DAC only project with minimal components in the path?
Well for me so far the 47uf FK's are the ones ;) Their fast, detailed and have the lowest distortion out of the ones I've tried , in comparison the polypropylenes and polyester sounded quite strained , excuse the description but they sounded plasticy in comparison to the FK's :rolleyes: The BG NX Hi-Q's was too soft. I tried a couple of polarised Nichicon FG's but these was sharp almost glassy in the high's . I've not tried the non polar Nichicons or Rubycons here yet
Hi leo,
Glad to see you are having at least as much success out of the FKs as I am - I just love their bass, gorgeous texture and amazing levels of ambient info. Quality is fluctuating and generally improving as they are breaking in - will probably take two weeks. I'd be keen to read your thoughts on the Rubycon Bipolars - which might lead to another order from Tirna. Silmics or Cerafines on the outputs might be worth a try as well.
Andrew
Okay guys, before you get your soldering irons out, leo's post (number 106) inspired me to remove the op-amp board and directly insert the 47uF caps into the PIN3A socket in the board underneath.
http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Modified-7520.jpg
From back to front of PIN3A (actually called "PIN3B" on the lower board) the connections are:
o Cap A +ve
o Cap A -ve
o no connection
o Cap B -ve
o Cap B +ve
I happened to find I had some spare 16V Blackgate 47uF (FK Series) - while I've previously had a rough time breaking in BGs in valve amps in the past, these are starting to improve quite rapidly (15 mins now).
The great thing about doing it this way is that I can swap in/out caps to find my favourite - probably a better final result than sticking with the first or second iteration that's been soldered in. Also better for the resale value when upgrading to any lovely future recipe exiting Stan's front door :)
Just using headphones, but the sound is already more "direct" and far better bass. Also starting to get some more texture to the sound. The volume setting on my amp had to be adjusted from 73/100 to 90/100.
Might consider making a standalone headphone board. Anyone know the name of the PIN3A and PIN4A connectors?
Andrew
Sorry to be thick - does this mod improve the variable out and retain use of the volume control (i.e. Caiman used as a preamp). I only ask because I have no way of testing first (only have a multimeter) and really like my speakers and am scared to try it!
Regards
Chris
Covenant
09-07-2010, 07:59
It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 08:33
Sorry to be thick - does this mod improve the variable out and retain use of the volume control (i.e. Caiman used as a preamp).
Yes it does, but bear in mind that the volume level is at least 3dB less without the line opamp.
Peter Galbavy
09-07-2010, 08:33
OK guys, help an ignorant tool out. I am at work, there are a couple of Maplin's branches within walking distance and I would love to try the non-destructuve version of this mod over the weekend.
Given Maplin's typical stock, what should I go for - happy to get a few different pairs. Can anyone take the time to look at what they do and point me at the right spec in their catalogue ? From the thread I don't want anything too high in voltage specs and never lower (than 15V).
Would grwatly appreciate it. A quick search gets me 8 types: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=47uF
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 08:47
Hi Peter, I can't see anything useful on their site. I have a couple of non-polarized 47uF/16V to try. You can pass by after work and have a pair if you wish:). I have one Rubycon you can have as well. Dunno if I can find another one though.
OK guys, help an ignorant tool out. I am at work, there are a couple of Maplin's branches within walking distance and I would love to try the non-destructuve version of this mod over the weekend.
Given Maplin's typical stock, what should I go for - happy to get a few different pairs. Can anyone take the time to look at what they do and point me at the right spec in their catalogue ? From the thread I don't want anything too high in voltage specs and never lower (than 15V).
Would grwatly appreciate it. A quick search gets me 8 types: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=47uF
Trouble is those Maplins caps are all pretty crap TBH, the SE looks like it may be the best of them, the AT96E or AU01B. There's only 2.5v across the cap in cct so a 6.3v would work OK.....
It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?
Try the standard ones if Nick has them, there's not a huge difference between them TBH
I'm going to continue to use the standards for now and try the replacing the two caps Leo mentioned above, if that doesn't improve the vocal presentation then I'll knock up a linear supply and try that...
Tripmaster
09-07-2010, 09:29
It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?
Hi Jerry
I've ordered several items from Parts Connection, good service.
It appears they have some in stock. I don't own a Beresford but others here may like to make up an order.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_blackgate_f.html
Peter Galbavy
09-07-2010, 10:09
Hi Peter, I can't see anything useful on their site. I have a couple of non-polarized 47uF/16V to try. You can pass by after work and have a pair if you wish:). I have one Rubycon you can have as well. Dunno if I can find another one though.
Thanks Stan, I may well do that - but over the w/e if it's OK ? Supposed to be social tonight :)
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 10:11
Thanks Stan, I may well do that - but over the w/e if it's OK ? Supposed to be social tonight :)
OK:).
Oh wow. Don't you just love cap burn in.....the china in the cabinet is now dancing around to the bass notes :eek:
Close miked female vocals are much better, still some hardness but it's improved, I don't think it will improve much more....time for some more cap Rollin' and tweakin'
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 10:47
Oh wow. Don't you just love cap burn in.....the china in the cabinet is now dancing around to the bass notes :eek:'
I did mention it in my opening statement of this mod ;). Anyone wishing to pit their CDP or DAC against the Caiman with passive mod :)?
HighFidelityGuy
09-07-2010, 11:17
Could someone please explain what difference putting a 100nF cap across the main cap used in the passive output mod will make to the sound? Also, what type of cap should be used for this? Electrolytic, polyester, polystyrene, silver mica etc etc?
Also, my power amps have a 50K input impedance, so what are the maximum and minimum capacitance ratings suitable for the main cap?
Thanks. :)
Yes it does, but bear in mind that the volume level is at least 3dB less without the line opamp.
Thanks Stan,
Does the mod stop use of the headphones? I only ask as I tried non polar caps into the Pin 3B socket and no sound - was trying this before feeding it into my power amp (still scared to have full vol into my speakers).
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 11:37
If you take out the audio PCB you won't have any headphone output.
Thanks again Stan, Will just have to go for it and be ready to pull the plug - fast! Now where are my old Kinn Keilidhs to use as a sacrificial lamb.
Regards
Chris
Thanks Stan,
Got is going (no mishaps) and it sounds good. Volume control needs to be up at around 1 oclock to get a nice vol level - is there a mod that helps this?
Gone for the non-polar Rubycons 47/16v initially.
Regards
Chris
I'm waiting for most of mine to arrive and will then conduct a little 'coupling cap bake-off'. The Nichicon MUSE caps are burning in at home right now, will have a proper listen tonight via CD rather than Sky HD.
Leaving the lid off and using the socket means that caps can be swapped around very quickly.
Could someone please explain what difference putting a 100nF cap across the main cap used in the passive output mod will make to the sound? Also, what type of cap should be used for this? Electrolytic, polyester, polystyrene, silver mica etc etc?
Also, my power amps have a 50K input impedance, so what are the maximum and minimum capacitance ratings suitable for the main cap?
Thanks. :)
Small bypass caps are usually good quality metal film plastic ones, avoid ceramic in the signal path IMHO. The idea is normally used on 'lytics to improve HF performance where nearly always 'lytics have poor performance. However, this tends not to apply IME to good quality caps like BlackGates who's HF performance is very good if not better than some plastic caps, so unless you are using cheapo 'lytics just stick to a single good quality cap.
With your 50K input a 22uF in the signal path will form a high pass filter with the knee (-3db) at 0.14 Hz! That means all signals above 0.14Hz are said to pass unattenuated....47uF halves that to 0.07Hz...essentially everything will get through!
If we aim for around 1Hz then your cap can shrink easily to 4.7uF or 2.2uF meaning it may be possible to avoid a 'lytic completely and go for a quality film n foil cap like the Mudorf's etc.
HighFidelityGuy
09-07-2010, 12:25
Small bypass caps are usually good quality metal film plastic ones, avoid ceramic in the signal path IMHO. The idea is normally used on 'lytics to improve HF performance where nearly always 'lytics have poor performance. However, this tends not to apply IME to good quality caps like BlackGates who's HF performance is very good if not better than some plastic caps, so unless you are using cheapo 'lytics just stick to a single good quality cap.
With your 50K input a 22uF in the signal path will form a high pass filter with the knee (-3db) at 0.14 Hz! That means all signals above 0.14Hz are said to pass unattenuated....47uF halves that to 0.07Hz...essentially everything will get through!
If we aim for around 1Hz then your cap can shrink easily to 4.7uF or 2.2uF meaning it may be possible to avoid a 'lytic completely and go for a quality film n foil cap like the Mudorf's etc.
Awesome, thanks for taking the time to explain all that. It all makes sense now. :cool:
It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?
I had the same response from HiFi collective too, I put an order into HiFi connections though and it seems they have them so with a bit of luck you should be able to get some too.
Cheers Andy
Covenant
09-07-2010, 20:52
I had the same response from HiFi collective too, I put an order into HiFi connections though and it seems they have them so with a bit of luck you should be able to get some too.
Cheers Andy
Could you give a link to them please Andy?
Try this http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_blackgate_f.html
Covenant
09-07-2010, 21:12
Thanks Leo but they have a minimum order value.
Tripmaster
09-07-2010, 21:19
Try this http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_blackgate_f.html
Two minds but a single thought :eyebrows:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=136026&postcount=171
I've tried more caps and still yet to find anything to better the FK's :doh: The idea is try and find something as good and in current production . Still not tried the non polar Rubycons or Nichicons.
Its funny because I've never been a huge fan of BG's, they seem to work well in this application though :)
Two minds but a single thought :eyebrows:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=136026&postcount=171
:lolsign:
I've tried more caps and still yet to find anything to better the FK's
I have polar Elna Silmic II and Nichicon KZ coming, as well as Sanyo Os-Con polymer and Wima film caps. The Nichicon MUSE bipolars I'm running at the moment are clean, distortion-free with a lovely midrange and tight bass, but perhaps just a touch light in the latter.
More next week.
Tripmaster
09-07-2010, 21:30
Thanks Leo but they have a minimum order value.
MINIMUM ORDER:
There is no minimum order, but ALL ORDERS UNDER $25 (before shipping is calculated) are subject to a $5 HANDLING FEE in addition to the shipping fee.
Its only a £3.20 handling charge
Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.
Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....
Covenant
09-07-2010, 21:36
Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.
Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....
You are right-I will just get a couple of muse.
StanleyB
09-07-2010, 21:38
Somehow I get the feeling that there's a lot of listening to the passive Caiman going on;). Dispatches from the battle front on the state of play are few and far between:cool:.
Oh boy, :rolleyes: don't get hung up on must have FK's...try the standard ones if they are available, the FK's are not better just different, the standard may suit your system better.
Edit: I have some FK's I'll try 'em tomorrow and report back....
That would be good Neal, I don't have any standards so can't compare myself, the thing is I think its because the FK's I tried are just way infront of everything else I have so if the standards are as good or maybe better that'll be great :cool:
Going with the linear psu, better 5v reg, BG's for the coupling and decoupling of the dacs 5v and its internal bias , I must say this is the best (to my ears) I've heard this dac .
I have polar Elna Silmic II and Nichicon KZ coming, as well as Sanyo Os-Con polymer and Wima film caps. The Nichicon MUSE bipolars I'm running at the moment are clean, distortion-free with a lovely midrange and tight bass, but perhaps just a touch light in the latter.
More next week.
Just be very careful with those Polymers mate, they can be leaky electrically . I knew a guy who used Sanyo SEP's as coupling in his linestage , he started noticing weird cone movements on one of his speakers , long story short it was DC offset caused from one of the SEP's .
Not wanting to scaremonger and they could of course be fine, just wanted to let you know:)
Somehow I get the feeling that there's a lot of listening to the passive Caiman going on;). Dispatches from the battle front on the state of play are few and far between:cool:.
I'm finding the passive output to have more finesse so far, not had any sharpness and no loss of detail :cool:
Its a real nice mod if its suited to the rest of your kit
It doen't look like Hifi Collective have the Black Gate 47uf FK's in stock. Anywhere else they are available?
I just found that the links for Nichicon and Black Gate are mixed-up on the Hi-Fi Collective website. Just click the Nichicon link and you'll find the Black Gates.
Andrew
I just found that the links for Nichicon and Black Gate are mixed-up on the Hi-Fi Collective website. Just click the Nichicon link and you'll find the Black Gates.
But they appear to have no useful values left of the standard, C or N types.
Just be very careful with those Polymers mate, they can be leaky electrically
Will do, thanks for the warning.
Have the Nichicon KZ in now, keeping the lid off the DAC to make for quick changes. These are nice and have at least the bass quality of the Nichicon bipolars before being properly run in. Lovely mid and sweet top. They're staying in for a while.
I have eliminated the Elna Silmic II as have too light a bass balance for coupling use.
I wonder, Leo, if you could draw up a table and populate it with our findings for each cap?
StanleyB
10-07-2010, 11:16
Hi Stan,
Just out of curiosity, did this new mod come to you by chance, or from experiments towards a more streamlined DAC only project with minimal components in the path?
Sorry for missing your question James :doh:.
It was a combination of luck and planning that caused me to try out the mod. I used to offer it by special order on the TC-7510, but the output was only suitable for AUX input on an amp. The Caiman output is a bit higher. The passive mod is about -3dB down on the normal CD input on an amp.
I was busy testing some non-polarised caps with the intention of finding out if they are good enough to use. The one method I use to judge the sonic qualities of a capacitor is by connecting it between a DAC output and a preamp. Not very scientific, but it works for me. As the findings of others have shown, it's an extremely rewarding method :).
Note for Black Gate users. Performance of my Black Gates are really fluctuating quite a bit. Last night they were quite bass light - so I recommend sticking with then for a couple of weeks to fully assess before changing for anything else.
Andrew
The thing about running in is that you must keep music flowing through the DAC otherwise the relay is in the mute position and the caps won't have a charge across them.
I run Sky HD on MTV during the day while I'm at work.
Buggleskelly
10-07-2010, 14:04
Hi guys.
been reading the posts with great interest and having been trying out the passive mod on both of my 7510's - Mk6/3 & Mk6/4.
The Mk6/4 also has had the Mod21 pt1 /1 done, both have lower noise 5V regs - National LNM3405T5 stuffwed in too. Both run on a 12V lead acid battery.
I've got the M6/3 running Silmic's and MK6/4 with Nichicon Muse. The Mk6/4 did have Nichicon FGs but I swopped out when I got the Muse.
Findings so far - first impressions:
Silmic: I haven't found them to have a light weight bass yet. I'm listening while I'm writing this and they sound good, top end needs to settle a tad on some more brighter recordings - need more soaking in. I used these for the 7510 MOD21 pt1/2 and did like them there at all - they made it too creamy the crispness on cymbals went and vocals seemed to lose there edge. But in this mod they sound very good.
Nichicon FGs : Top end can seem a bit too hard but they do give the music a bit of snap. As noted female vocals seemed more effected by this slight hardness. Most prolly need soaking in like most of these high end caps.
Nichicon Muse : haven't really listened to the much. Intiall impression was these are good and more towards the Silmic with the FG snap. Needs a lot more listining :-)
I've got some Black Gates on Parts Connexion - thanksto the modder who gave the tip on where to get them , nice one :) So when I get these I'll give them a spin.
I've just changed over amps to really get the benifits of this mod. I'm now using the class A 20W toob amp and it knocked my socks off how good this simple mod is. Bang for buck or what! so gawd knows what you guys are getting with the Caimen - must sound really top draw.
I don't have problem with the reduced output as my passive pre TVC has got boost switches which lifts the gain by about 6dB so that's helped.
I can tell you it's nice to do these cheap mods as toob rolling gets pretty expensive.
Cheers guys for great postings and pointers.
Cheers / Stevie :cool:
StanleyB
10-07-2010, 15:09
Now that the dust has settled a little I have had time to rethink the mod wiring.
The latest suggestion for trying out the mod requires only two pieces of wires. That means that you can try the mod out before deciding if you want to invest in two expensive caps.
Remove the line output opamp.
Solder two pieces of wires to the outer pins on the connector on the left side of the PCB (looking at the DAC from the front).
Push the bare ends of the left wire into pin 1 of the empty IC socket.
Push the bare ends of the rightt wire into pin 7 of the empty IC socket.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/f1.jpg
This way of doing it allows you to also add some improvements to the headphone section. The muting circuit is also fully functional, and there is a bit of HF filtering to remove some of any HF noise.
If you add the 68nF caps mod ( reddish caps in the picture) by replacing the 100nF ones (blue or yellow on the original PCB), the headphone amp performance will be almost indistinguishable from the original layout. With the THS4032, and some non-polarised caps I am trying out, my HD800 and D7000 have not pulled away significantly from my K701 and HD650 in terms of musicality, detail, and clarity. So for headphone users this alternative way of adding the mod is well worth a go.
Peter Galbavy
10-07-2010, 16:41
Thanks to Stan for both the mod and those caps I just picked up earlier. I can't doa proper comparison since only earlier this morning did I put a pack of five heavy floor tiles under each speaker (sep. by blutak) and the bass resonances vanished. Now the bass (with this mod) is back so I need to do more appreciating before coming to a conclusion.
Have the Nichicon KZ in now, keeping the lid off the DAC to make for quick changes. These are nice and have at least the bass quality of the Nichicon bipolars before being properly run in. Lovely mid and sweet top. They're staying in for a while.
I have eliminated the Elna Silmic II as have too light a bass balance for coupling use.
I wonder, Leo, if you could draw up a table and populate it with our findings for each cap?
What about a new thread or maybe doing it as a poll ? Thats if I can work out how to do one, never done a poll before
The thing about running in is that you must keep music flowing through the DAC otherwise the relay is in the mute position and the caps won't have a charge across them.
I run Sky HD on MTV during the day while I'm at work.
Exactly! This is one reason why I'd like to find a good alternative to the BG's, I don't like the fact their performance goes up and down and tend to sound better when they've had constant voltage across them for a while.
Indeed Leo but its reassuring that you've woken up to Black Gates at long last :D :D :D ;)
Update: True to form from past experience the standard BG's came on song after about 50hrs of use.
Female vocals are now better balanced and less fatiguing(!) so they did change a bit more. Rally enjoyed my session this afternoon without the family distraction ;)
The FK's are now in place and its early days as yet...diffuse presentation, smooth and detailed though as I'd expect, this will change but the FK's take more than the standards to run in up to 200hrs however they give a good indication after a few, so I expect a smooth, rich but detailed presentation that ultimately will lack a little bit of balls for rock.....we'll see!
Has anyone tried the Rubycon ZL/ZLG in this mod?
Indeed Leo but its reassuring that you've woken up to Black Gates at long last :D :D :D ;)
Update: True to form from past experience the standard BG's came on song after about 50hrs of use.
Female vocals are now better balanced and less fatiguing(!) so they did change a bit more. Rally enjoyed my session this afternoon without the family distraction ;)
The FK's are now in place and its early days as yet...diffuse presentation, smooth and detailed though as I'd expect, this will change but the FK's take more than the standards to run in up to 200hrs however they give a good indication after a few, so I expect a smooth, rich but detailed presentation that ultimately will lack a little bit of balls for rock.....we'll see!
Yes, I was suprised with them this time and don't mind admitting the BG's work very well in this dac, not always had success with them in the past though :)
Oh, got a couple of used 47uf 16v standards on the way too now
Has anyone tried the Rubycon ZL/ZLG in this mod?
Not for coupling (I have tried them for decoupling supply rails) their steel leads and low ESR may make them a little sharp in the high's used for coupling. Worth a try though seeing as though their cheap.
What about a new thread or maybe doing it as a poll ? Thats if I can work out how to do one, never done a poll before
A new thread with the root message being updated with additions to it. A header for each capacitor and a bullet point for every comment made about it, plus the contributor's name should do it. The exact name, value and voltage of the capacitor would be helpful.
Peter Galbavy
12-07-2010, 10:58
Just a bit of feedback on this mod. I picked up a couple of pairs of caps from Stan and tried a pair of Capxon (?) ones. I have also made changes to the speakers by putting them on 20kg of slate-effect porcelain floor tiles sandwiched with some blutak, so this is not a fair or scientific comparison.
Initial impressions are that the sound is "grittier" and "raw" but not as unpleasant as those adjectives would make it out to be. The removal of bass resonances with the wooden floor under the carpet by the new positioning of the speakers makes it hard to judge the low end at all. At first I had the fixed level output going through the Audiolab 8000C but after initial testing I went with a variable output direct into the Rotel 1572 power amp. All good.
I did the remove-opamp-board and push caps in version of the mod since I am not really set-up for or confident in my soldering abilities.
This is another pair of changes to my system that I can say help to seperate out good and bad mastering - Rodrigo Y Gabriella's 11:11 track 1 came through as stunning with little fear of the compression that must be there (it's a new loud recording after all) while some older stuff came through muted and muffled by comparison.
Now that I am not constrainted by the Audiolab's groundloop annoyances, when using the Caiman as the preamp, I can more easily leave the lid unscrewed (no ground wire) and then try with and without opamp board and also finally try the AD826s too.
I have taken out the opamp board and fitted Rubycon non-polars into the pins as shown in the pictures (the same ones we put in the opamp board mod). I had already done the Murata's and top qulaity linear supply a few months back. This feeds into an Avondale A260 and then into JM Labs 926 speakers using the variable outputs.
Well, I don't like the sound changes - I love them!
I cannot detect any harshness etc as some have found. The sound is smooth, powerfull and very enjoyable compared to the AD826 opamp setup I tried before with the wire and resistor mods (and I liked that).
Thanks Stan and everyone for a great upgrade at very little cost.
Regards
Chris
Has anyone tried the Rubycon ZL/ZLG in this mod?
A quick look on the Internet seems to suggest that ZA is better. However they'll all cheap enough to consider trying the lot.
Andrew
HighFidelityGuy
12-07-2010, 13:02
Is there an upper limit to the capacitor rating that can be used for this mod?
For example, would using a 220uF 6.3V cap be a bad idea for any reason?
Thanks.
Is there an upper limit to the capacitor rating that can be used for this mod?
For example, would using a 220uF 6.3V cap be a bad idea for any reason?
Since the circuit is completed via your preamp's input circuit you could leave yourself open to large thumps when you play music and the muting relay disengages, charging the capacitors all of a sudden.
This happened to me with some Elna Silmics (which I suspect are leaky) and my power amp went into protection shutdown!
In any case, you shouldn't need such a large value as the corner frequency will be unnecessarily low.
HighFidelityGuy
12-07-2010, 13:21
Since the circuit is completed via your preamp's input circuit you could leave yourself open to large thumps when you play music and the muting relay disengages, charging the capacitors all of a sudden.
This happened to me with some Elna Silmics (which I suspect are leaky) and my power amp went into protection shutdown!
In any case, you shouldn't need such a large value as the corner frequency will be unnecessarily low.
Ok thanks, I'll stay away from values above 47uF in that case. I just noticed that Parts Connexion had some BG NX series at 6.3V at a reasonable price but the lowest value is 220uF, so I thought I'd double check before I wasted my money. I'm glad I did.
Cheers. :)
My passive mod with Superreg in place of 7805.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/Fog003.jpg
Hi!
As I'm not a pro in electronics and try to avoid mistakes ... I have three questions to the experts here:
-
1)
As it is not always possible to supply caps with 47µf, is it better to go for caps with smaller values (33µf, 22µf, ...) of higher ones ( 100µf)?
Where would you say is the highest/lowest possible value?
-
2)
Someone already mentioned in the thread that any type capable of handling more than 2,5v would be ok. Can this be confirmed?
-
3)
When using the passive output mod, does it still make sense to upgrade BOTH regs (eg. with muratas)? Or is the replacement of one of the regs 'obsolete' as there is no output opamp to supply?
Thanks, cheers and happy cap-hunting!
cz
StanleyB
12-07-2010, 15:44
1. - 33uF or 22uF will do. The lower you go, the less bass will be had.
2. - 6.3V minimum.
3. - just upgrade the 5V reg.
Thanks Stan, now I know what to hunt for ... ;-)
Cheers, cz
Elna Silmic II - 47uF 10V
Clean, low distortion. Not the most transparent. Light bass. Leaky - caused power amp to go into protection!
Nichicon Muse bipolar - 47uF 16V
Nice clean mid, very clean, slightly light bass
Nichicon Muse KZ - 47uF 25V
Very promising, delicate and clean midrange, extended detailed treble, extended but neutral bass
Rubycon CE bipolar 47uF 16V
Good clean midrange, less forward than KZ, full bass but not quite as extended
So far it's between the KZ and the Rubycon so I'll put more hours on them both. More caps to come...
Is it really neccessary to use 47uf. In other passive mods I have done I have used nothing bigger than 4.7uf?
It all depends on the input impedance of the next stage, be that preamp or integrated.
tried a pair of Capxon (?) ones
Capxon are nasty Chinese capacitors with a poor reputation for leaking and blowing their safety vents. Avoid.
StanleyB
12-07-2010, 19:59
Is it really neccessary to use 47uf. In other passive mods I have done I have used nothing bigger than 4.7uf?
In the Caiman 10uF is the lowest I recommend.
Elna Silmic II - 47uF 10V
Clean, low distortion. Not the most transparent. Light bass. Leaky - caused power amp to go into protection!
Nichicon Muse bipolar - 47uF 16V
Nice clean mid, very clean, slightly light bass
Nichicon Muse KZ - 47uF 25V
Very promising, delicate and clean midrange, extended detailed treble, extended but neutral bass
Rubycon CE bipolar 47uF 16V
Good clean midrange, less forward than KZ, full bass but not quite as extended
So far it's between the KZ and the Rubycon so I'll put more hours on them both. More caps to come...
Nice one but the caps will need a week or so running time as they will change quite a bit especially on the transparancy front.
Regards
Chris
Nice one but the caps will need a week or so running time as they will change quite a bit especially on the transparancy front.
Agreed, Chris. I wanted to do a quick elimination and am now putting hours on the Rubycons having already put hours on the KZs. I will then compare them more thoroughly.
I next have Sanyo Os-Con polymers and Wima film caps due to arrive. I'll publish an updated table when done.
HighFidelityGuy
13-07-2010, 11:42
I'm still really enjoying the Nichicon Muse bipolar caps in my setup. I haven't compared them against anything other than the active output yet but they are quite a bit more transparrent and clean sounding than that and the slight harshness I detected in the beginning has gone now that they are run in more. They've had about a week of heavy use now and have really opened up. The dynamics are simply breathtaking. I listened to my favourite band Explosions In The Sky (http://open.spotify.com/artist/1uQWmt1OhuHGRKmZ2ZcL6p) last night who specialise in sudden dynamic changes and even thought I knew it was going to sound good I was still blown away by the sheer power and emotion. :eek: It's the closest I've ever got to a live performance by this band. I simply cannot express how happy I am with the sound I'm now getting from my system. It's very nearly perfect to my taste. I'm going to try a few more caps soon but these Muse bipolars are going to take some beating. If the Muse KZ and Blackgates are as good as some people are saying then I may be pleasently supprised.
Thank you very much for this mod Stan, I'm a very happy man indeed. :cool:
PS. If you've never heard Explosion In the Sky (http://open.spotify.com/artist/1uQWmt1OhuHGRKmZ2ZcL6p), get on Spotify and listen to Yasmin The Light. If you've done the passive output mod and you have big speakers and amps then prepare for a big smile. It's breathtaking stuff. :eyebrows:
The FK's have had sufficient time on them now to start forming an opinion.
Their presentation is smooth and detailed in comparison to the standards(STD). The STD ones are more 'raw' and seem to lack the same amount of detail but after careful listening I think its the way its presented that differs.
The STD ones suit rock music better, there's an edge to electric guitar and vocals, these are pushed towards you away from the 'speakers...the presentation is very solid between the 'speakers and has more bounce, more drive...
The FK's on the other hand have a more diffuse presentation, very smooth, detailed and sweet bordering on polite IMHO, the same rock music played on them lacks the same drive and vocal intimacy the sound stage seems flattened and spread wider.
However, they gain on female vocals and simple recordings where their more delicate presentation is more suited, their ability to convey vocal emotion is really good, hairs standing up on the back of the neck stuff...
So its a tough one to choose at the moment, I'll give the FK's more hours to see if they develop more....or I may just fit a switch so I can flick depending on my mood! ;)
The mod is fantastic, but I reckon I can do better (for my tastes) than the FKs - which are not really ideal when I am still using the relays and would have to have the PC up and running continuously to keep the FKs warmed up.
I have on order a surprise choice of capacitors and will only say that they are used by two of my favourite brands - Linn (their LK series amps) and Heed Audio. They are not designer and have even seen other forum posts recommending that they are swapped out of the Musical Fidelity X-Cans, but they should give me more body to the bass and less in the way of warm-up issues.
Also they'll be going into my Maplin CB radio supply (uprating the 2200uF to 4400uF) along with some better diodes (as used by 47 Labs in their Gaincard). This is a good supply, but feel that my original 7520 supply was better (more solid and responsive sounding) even with my MuRatas. Hopefully these changes will nose the power supply ahead.
I may later try some Rubycon ZAs, Panasonic FCs and Nichicons.
Andrew
I have on order a surprise choice of capacitors
Do tell!
The Rubycon CE bipolars are really coming on song now. They have the best soundstage depth and the bass has filled out and extended very well. They are good at bringing to my attention subliminal detail. Nice.
I removed a pair of 47uf 16v grey Rubycons from the op-amp board and currently have them in use for the passive mod, tbh these are doing a good job so far imo . Do they better the BG FK's ? dunno yet but so far so good
I can say I think the Rubycons are better than the 10uf plastic films, 47uf Nichicon FG , 47uf Axial Tants, 10uf dipped tant, 33uf Panny FC's I've tried.
so far
BTW all these caps had been well used before
I've seen cheap Jamicons used in a lot of Heeds products
The FK's have had sufficient time on them now to start forming an opinion.
Their presentation is smooth and detailed in comparison to the standards(STD). The STD ones are more 'raw' and seem to lack the same amount of detail but after careful listening I think its the way its presented that differs.
The STD ones suit rock music better, there's an edge to electric guitar and vocals, these are pushed towards you away from the 'speakers...the presentation is very solid between the 'speakers and has more bounce, more drive...
The FK's on the other hand have a more diffuse presentation, very smooth, detailed and sweet bordering on polite IMHO, the same rock music played on them lacks the same drive and vocal intimacy the sound stage seems flattened and spread wider.
However, they gain on female vocals and simple recordings where their more delicate presentation is more suited, their ability to convey vocal emotion is really good, hairs standing up on the back of the neck stuff...
So its a tough one to choose at the moment, I'll give the FK's more hours to see if they develop more....or I may just fit a switch so I can flick depending on my mood! ;)
Thats great Neal ta! I should have the used Blackgate standards tomorrow (hopefully) so look forward to trying them
StanleyB
13-07-2010, 20:48
Has anyone managed to compare the Caiman with the latest mod against anything else? Or is the mod so gripping that you nobody has bothered to even attempt a comparison? I need the research data for long term R&D purposes :rolleyes:.
Stan can I just check - this mod is suitable for 7520 yes?
Also during my experiments with op amps I found that I actually liked the sound with no op amps in at all (!!) as it sounded as if it had more energy, definatly more kick and vibration coming out of the speakers. Clearly my method is not the reccomended (or safe??) for the DAC I will have to try your mod Stan with the two wires in the op amp sockets (what does that actually do compared to just removing the op amps?) but this mod in its various incarnations looks to be an extension of what I found by removing op amps, and I am gagging to give it a go!!!
Gotta order some suitable caps does any have a sugestion for decent caps that are not silly money??
Butuz
StanleyB
13-07-2010, 21:11
The mod will work on the TC-7520, but output will be down by about 6dB compared to the opamp. I mentioned this already in this thread and won't keep repeating nmyself:rolleyes:.
You can get two pieces of the Rubycon 47uF from Jimmy at http://tirnaelectronics.co.uk for £2.00, or there abouts, posted if you email or phone him and mentioned I sent you. His are fresh stock, which means the electrolyte inside the caps is not contaminated from lying idle on a shelf for years. So performance will be better than the BG I reckon.
Sorry stan please bear in mind this thread is 25 pages long I only had time to skim read clearly not the best way of gleaning information but it's all I got before I hit the sack! :)
Ps. i noted the drop in output during op amp removal but it's not a problem as I don't usually listen at more than 1/4 volume anyway. Find myself maxing out at about 1/2 volume with op amp removal.
Cheers for the help.
Butuz
I've seen cheap Jamicons used in a lot of Heeds products
Hi leo, you've got it! They're used in the Heed Obelisk and my LK140 amplifier. So I thought it might be worth trying out as I really dig those amps, particularly with regards to their quick warm-up period and really beefy bass. Its just a hunch that the Jamicons may be the commonality there, but over the next few days (when I receive them) I could be proven wrong.
Anyway if I don't like them I've not lost much and can readily swap them for something else (probably try Nichicons).
Andrew
Has anyone managed to compare the Caiman with the latest mod against anything else? Or is the mod so gripping that you nobody has bothered to even attempt a comparison? I need the research data for long term R&D purposes :rolleyes:.
I can do a comparison of my Passived 7510 against the New DacMagic, LiTe Dac Ah and a Chinese CS4397 Dac?
I've got nothing else to compare it against Stan, just with the regulator and cap mod on the audio board it had already pushed past my TDA1541 and MF A3.24, I can try the MF again as it's not been used for a while so memory may be a little dim......
I don't really have anything commercial to hand at the moment to compare against, only thing I have is diy so not really helpful
Hi leo, you've got it! They're used in the Heed Obelisk and my LK140 amplifier. So I thought it might be worth trying out as I really dig those amps, particularly with regards to their quick warm-up period and really beefy bass. Its just a hunch that the Jamicons may be the commonality there, but over the next few days (when I receive them) I could be proven wrong.
Anyway if I don't like them I've not lost much and can readily swap them for something else (probably try Nichicons).
Andrew
Thats the nice thing with this mod, its cheap and easy to compare caps :)
drumlins4ever
14-07-2010, 00:38
I'm waiting for most of mine to arrive and will then conduct a little 'coupling cap bake-off'. The Nichicon MUSE caps are burning in at home right now, will have a proper listen tonight via CD rather than Sky HD.
Leaving the lid off and using the socket means that caps can be swapped around very quickly.
Any precautions to adhere to when swapping caps ?, don't they hold an electrical charge for a while ?
Any precautions to adhere to when swapping caps ?, don't they hold an electrical charge for a while ?
The charge they hold is tiny, so no safety requirements. As for thumps through the system, switch the Caiman off while changing caps. Then play a few seconds of music with your preamp/power amp in mute before listening. Any charging thump will have been and gone.
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