Caiman passive output mod revealed [Archive] - Page 3

Gazjam

17-08-2010, 19:14

What no Sanyo Os-cons? :eek: Actually i'm being serious, Os-cons should sound better than the above as they have a solid electrolyte rather than liquid. Super low ESR over a really wide bandwidth & though it's not relevant a massive ripple current capability.

By the way, don't bother checking out the 47uf 25V KZ 2457 Go straight for the 50V version as this will give you better performance due to lower losses :)

Hey Mark,
your comment about the voltage got me thinking...

As there didn't seem to be any concensus about voltages (as opposed to uf) for the caps for this application, and believe me I checked(!), I guess I tried a variety of values as they were just a few pence to buy.

Your comment though about 50v giving better performance due to lower losses...does this apply across the board with all opamps in this case or just the Sanyo solid electrolyte ones you spoke of?

Always keen to learn about this stuff! :)...:scratch:

Going by the different choices of cap made here, I guess like most hifi stuff it comes down to the individuals ears!
Is there a general concensus though about "best voltage" for caps for the passive output mod for the dac?

ta.

Gazjam

17-08-2010, 19:16

Reid Malenfant

17-08-2010, 19:26

Hi Gaz, it applies to all electrolytics & to a certain extent non electrolytic capacitors ;) The higher the voltage rating of the capacitor the less losses you'll get, less DC leakage current & you'll find that 99% of the time that capacitor ESR (equivalent series resistance) is lower as well.

In a way it's pretty obvious, a capacitor that is designed to have a maximum of say 25V accross it is manufactured to have a leakage current within certain limits. If you substituted one of lets say 4 times the voltage rating but kept the maximum voltage accross it at 25V or less then you'll get much less current leakage as that cap should have been designed to leak about the same as the 25V cap but at 100V ;)

Give it 25V & the leakage current should be 1/4 of the 25V cap...

I'd like to point out that all capacitors should be "formed" or in the case of an older cap, "reformed". This involves something as simple as a regulated power supply set at the maximum voltage of the capacitor & a high value resistor or current regulation to gradually charge the capacitor up before you ever use it. Obviously discharge through another resistor before fitting it into a circuit :doh:

Doing this should give you maximum capacitor performance by reducing leakage currents :)

Ali Tait

17-08-2010, 19:28

Easily the best I've tried,but then I'm enjoying the Audio Note coppers in the AN dac too.

leo

17-08-2010, 23:25

How much worse are they than any standard wet electrolyte electrolytic? I mean they all leak to a certain extent though we should be talking micro Amperes in reality.

Do you happen to know how much worse the solid electrolytics (SEP) are by chance? 10%? 100%? Sorry, i gots to know :eyebrows:

Cheers in advance Leo :)

The leakage was enough in one case it set off an amplifiers DC protection on the output.

I've repaired quite a few item belonging to friends mostly what they'd modded themselves , Sanyo Oscons they fitted caused majority of problems ranging from DC leakage when used as coupling caps or used in the FB to high frequency instability when used on the output of LM317 based regulation caused by the low ESR.

Oscons are good caps but after previous experience I feel care is needed if using them, they can in some cases cause the inexperienced tweakers headaches :)

Reid Malenfant

18-08-2010, 14:27

Cheers Leo, a pretty comprehensive answer ;)

A good bit of thought obviously needs to be put into if it's wise to use them then under certain circumstances :eyebrows:

Gazjam

18-08-2010, 16:50

too rich for my blood! :)

BryanP

20-08-2010, 02:22

Greetings All
I have read this mod. with using caps only and removing the OP board.
I have a 7250 which has 826 installed. I have a pair of REL caps from my Atma-Sphere MP3 pre amp. I have a pair of .10uf and .47uf 400V. Can I use either of these caps as coupling caps in my 7250.
Thanks
Bryan

Ali Tait

20-08-2010, 07:08

Depends on the input impedance of you preamp/amp.Do you know what the value is?

AndrewR

20-08-2010, 09:12

Hi BryanP,

Ali is correct about checking the input impedance of your amplifier, but it is most likely that those capacitance values are too small and would end up filter out a noticeable amount of bass.

Andrew

Clive

20-08-2010, 09:20

The 0.47uF should be fine for a preamp with a 50k input impedance.

Ali Tait

20-08-2010, 09:38

Agreed Clive,I'm using 0.47uF with my WAD Pre 2,which has an input impedance of 100k.

BryanP

25-08-2010, 16:38

Greetings All
I installed the REL-Caps .47uf 400 volt. The improvement to the sound is wounderful. I am a believer!!
Much more open and detailed bass.
Works great into my PS Audio PCA-2 pre-amp
Thanks for the info.

RoboCopper

31-08-2010, 12:05

HI,
As I got carried away with success and good SQ with MLC5/6 mod I also wanted to try passive output mod as it seems quite simple and I had some spare caps.
Anyway, it was not that simple as after doing this fiddly job only one channel was working (right) and I also did not like the sound as much as with opamps hence I wanted to return to normal opamp mode.
After de soldering the caps and bridging the RCA sockets, there is not sound anymore coming either from fixed, variable and headphone outputs.What could be the problem?
Thanks

StanleyB

31-08-2010, 13:04

Which implementation of the passive mod did you carry out? There are several versions that do the same job. A couple of pictures might be most helpful.

Puffin

31-08-2010, 20:41

Can anyone tell me what this mod does to the standard 7510 with PCM 1716 chip?

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/saxonsex/7510wiremod.jpg

StanleyB

31-08-2010, 21:07

Try it and see :eyebrows:.
I thought I had an updated picture that showed the soldering away from the DAC chip pins. It's best not to solder the wire directly to the DAC pin. If I can't find my other picture, Use a multi meter to trace a better spot from the wire on pin 15 of the PCM1716.

RoboCopper

31-08-2010, 22:00

Which implementation of the passive mod did you carry out? There are several versions that do the same job. A couple of pictures might be most helpful.

I did the mod from the post 1 of this thread.

Shall I send photos too?
Regards

StanleyB

01-09-2010, 08:54

I can't see any reason why the sound should be dead if you reversed the mod. Was the DAC unplugged from the mains when you were working on it?

RoboCopper

01-09-2010, 19:36

I can't see any reason why the sound should be dead if you reversed the mod. Was the DAC unplugged from the mains when you were working on it?

Hi,
Yes, I also can not see the reason for DAC not working after reversing the mod.
DAC was definitely unplugged from the mains when working with it.
The DAC lights come on, and work fine, as well as tiny popping noises when switching inputs (when volume is at max).

leo

01-09-2010, 20:03

RoboCopper

01-09-2010, 20:31

Are ALL the pins on the daughter board/audioboard inserted into all the socket holes?

TBH it would have been easier for you to try inserting the caps into the dacs onboard sockets (post 117) http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6910&page=12 when trying the passive mod, I'd then do the cutting sockets etc if you wanted to keep this mod permanent

What are the daughter/audioboard pins? Is the daughter board one where the opamps are placed?

I just realised that would be definitely easier if I have read post 117 earlier and tried passive mode that way.
With passive mod from post 117, do you need to cut RCA connectors?
But the main problem remains, there is no sound:scratch: coming out of Beresford :(
Only the blue lights and popping noise when switching the inputs (at max volume only).
Could it be that main DAC chip can not stand the hot temperatures from soldering iron (it wasn't touched by iron, it was in close proximity).
Any help, please?

leo

01-09-2010, 21:15

What are the daughter/audioboard pins? Is the daughter board one where the opamps are placed?

I just realised that would be definitely easier if I have read post 117 earlier and tried passive mode that way.
With passive mod from post 117, do you need to cut RCA connectors?
But the main problem remains, there is no sound:scratch: coming out of Beresford :(
Only the blue lights and popping noise when switching the inputs (at max volume only).
Could it be that main DAC chip can not stand the hot temperatures from soldering iron (it wasn't touched by iron, it was in close proximity).
Any help, please?

The audioboard is the credit card sized pcb containing the op-amps etc seen in this first pic http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3058 , its plugged into a multi pin plug/socket. Its just an idea to be sure its plugged in properly elliminating the possibility its been knocked loose when you was trying the mods.

If you did the passive mod correctly the dac should work so we'll need to see some detailed pics to help us diagnose your problem, it could be a number of things causing it.
Are you sure you didn't short any of the signal tracks out when doing the mod ?

RoboCopper

01-09-2010, 21:34

The audioboard is the credit card sized pcb containing the op-amps etc seen in this first pic http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3058 , its plugged into a multi pin plug/socket. Its just an idea to be sure its plugged in properly elliminating the possibility its been knocked loose when you was trying the mods.

If you did the passive mod correctly the dac should work so we'll need to see some detailed pics to help us diagnose your problem, it could be a number of things causing it.
Are you sure you didn't short any of the signal tracks out when doing the mod ?

I checked the audioboard with opamps and it seems to be correctly fitted. Pictures will follow tomorrow at the daylight for better quality :)
I think I did not short any of the signal tracks.
If I short two signal track where I was soldering, there wouldn't be no sound coming through, would it?
But at the highest volume I can hear slight popping noise when switching inputs, especially from USB to coax1.
Is the chip DAC to blame? I guess that signal goes from digital inputs to DAC chip, thank via those cables to other front bigger board, than to opamp audio board, than back to front bigger board and back to rear board and then to RCA outputs?

RoboCopper

01-09-2010, 22:08

I just checked by touching the connectors where I have soldered the capacitors for the mod from the post 1 of this thread and when touching with small screwdriver the speakers are producing the crackling sound, meaning that there is some signal coming from that point, also when touching the opamps board, same sound is coming out.
Could something be wrong with input stage of the 7520? Static?
p.s. I also used can spray for blowing air in order to clean all possible shortcuts (e.g. under the DAC 1716 chip).

RoboCopper

02-09-2010, 07:38

Here are some photos.

StanleyB

02-09-2010, 09:14

Can you provide a picture of the back of the fixed RCA socket? It is not clear whether you have soldered them back correctly.

Puffin

02-09-2010, 10:36

RoboCopper

02-09-2010, 10:43

Can you provide a picture of the back of the fixed RCA socket? It is not clear whether you have soldered them back correctly.

Hi, I think they are, but here are more photos.
Regards

Alex_UK

02-09-2010, 15:48

I've finally decided to do my first ever mod! I hadn't realised I could do this without soldering anything, so ordered some Rubycon Bi-polar 47uF caps from Tirna, (4, just in case, I know what I'm like...) and then I can see what the fuss is all about by taking the op-amp board out. The only slight downside is losing the Headphones, but I only use them rarely anyway, and I can always get brave and do the other method if the headphone out on the Creek is awful...

Should be fun, can't wait to see how the mod sounds.

Clive

02-09-2010, 15:51

Hi, I think they are, but here are more photos.
Regards
Are you sure the phono socket is making a good connection with the phono plug? One looks rather fried.

MartinT

02-09-2010, 16:27

Alex - allow a full week for the capacitors to settle down. Rubycons are a good choice. You should hear a sizeable improvement over the op-amps provided your preamp/amp's inputs are high impedance.

Alex_UK

02-09-2010, 17:53

Thanks Martin - I'll do what you do I think, and leave it running 24/7 with Sky - if they should make it here tomorrow that would be great as we are away for a few days. I'm actually also hoping the output will be a bit lower because the Phono board I've fitted is noticeably lower than the Caiman currently, so might even things up a bit and stop me waking the neighbours when I switch from the turntable! No idea what the impedance is on my Creek amp as it doesn't say in the manual, although all line-level inputs are said to be the same 415mv sensitivity.

RoboCopper

02-09-2010, 19:35

Are you sure the phono socket is making a good connection with the phono plug? One looks rather fried.

I wish that was the problem, but there is no sound coming out on variable RCA outputs (and fixted) where I did not touch them at all.
In fact there is popping sound coming out of fixed ouputs, but only when volume is at max volume and when switching the inputs.
Thanks for suggestion though.

StanleyB

02-09-2010, 19:52

It looks very much that the DAC chip might have succumbed to static electricity failure.

RoboCopper

02-09-2010, 19:59

It looks very much that the DAC chip might have succumbed to static electricity failure.

Although I did not touch the chip DAC with big soldering iron, static electricity could be to blame.
But I thought of upgrading this chip anyway, hence if I find good technician with soldering skill this could cure my lovely 7520 (which is becoming a Caiman)

:)

StanleyB

03-09-2010, 09:51

So this takes power straight to the +5v IN. I suppose you could make a separate PS for it?
Sorry, my mistake. The Caiman does not have any such modification. It is for the TC-7510 and details can be found in the TC-7510 mod thread.

Puffin

03-09-2010, 10:14

Sorry, my mistake. The Caiman does not have any such modification. It is for the TC-7510 and details can be found in the TC-7510 mod thread.

Sorry Stan you have lost me:scratch:

Mine is a 7510. So is a separate 5v supply to that pin reccommended? I assume the wire mod picks the +5v off the tant?

Rob.

StanleyB

03-09-2010, 10:46

Sorry Stan you have lost me:scratch:

Mine is a 7510. So is a separate 5v supply to that pin reccommended? I assume the wire mod picks the +5v off the tant?

This is the Caiman thread :eyebrows:. In order to comply with AoS rules, you should be posting the question in the appropriate thread. Otherwise some readers of the thread are likely to get confused and start to think that the mod is also related to the Caiman, which it is not.

Puffin

03-09-2010, 14:25

Yes Stan, I completely forgot. Same question different thread. See you over there.

Rob.

goody

03-09-2010, 16:29

Hello All,
Have any of us try the passive mod with 2 series bipolar capacitors per channel? I tried it and felt that the sound is better. Not sure if it is just me and suggest you try it and share your experiences.

This idea came about from an article I read about having 2 bipolar caps in series lowers the distortion by 5 to 10 times...wow. Try it to see if it works for you.

:band:

AndrewR

03-09-2010, 20:47

Hi all,

Just wondering whether anyone is considering using a Lundahl line output transformer instead of caps? E.g. http://www.lundahl.se/pdfs/datash/1585.pdf

If so, can anyone advise me whether the centre connection in PIN3B could be used as a ground?

Andrew

StanleyB

04-09-2010, 07:58

There is a 2.5V DC component on the output of the DAC chip. So without the cap you are going to short the DAC chip to ground.

StanleyB

04-09-2010, 08:09

Some time ago I designed a discrete stage. Leo built a copy of it on stripboard and he had good results with it. My version has the headphone section using an opamp for convenience, but the line out is discrete.

http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/discrete.jpg

AndrewR

04-09-2010, 08:31

There is a 2.5V DC component on the output of the DAC chip. So without the cap you are going to short the DAC chip to ground.

Doh [to me]!

I've been getting carried away with coupling transformers using my Passive Caimanised 7520 with an interstage valve amp I designed and built a little while ago (no caps in signal path). More on that later (will post on the DIY board here).

http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/View2.jpg

Andrew

Alex_UK

06-09-2010, 14:25

Silly question alert: Got my Caps from Tirna today - the legs are not the same length, so presume I just trim them the same length? (yet to open the Caiman, best unload the car and help with the unpacking first!)

[EDIT] All sorted, and even better, sound is coming out of both channels so I haven't cocked it up! It was dead easy, a 5 minute job. If anyone wants a pair of the Tirna-supplied Rubycon Bi-polar 47uF caps FOC then PM me, and I'll pop them in the post tomorrow. Leaving it with Sky HD running them in for 4 or 5 hours or so before I have a proper first listen.

Puffin

06-09-2010, 17:25

Silly question alert: Got my Caps from Tirna today - the legs are not the same length, so presume I just trim them the same length? (yet to open the Caiman)

Are they polarised or non-polar. If the former the longest leg is positive, you can cut to desired length. If the latter the same applies, but you do not have to observe polarity.

OK, I am going in!!...........Wear bicycle clips. brown slippers are a bit smelly!

Alex_UK

06-09-2010, 17:30

Thanks Puffin - see edited post! :)

Alex_UK

06-09-2010, 17:40

Rubycon caps now spoken for. :)

Alex_UK

06-09-2010, 21:49

All sorted, and even better, sound is coming out of both channels so I haven't cocked it up! <snip> Leaving it with Sky HD running them in for 4 or 5 hours or so before I have a proper first listen.

Quick first impressions: The soundstage has opened a little, (wider) and the midrange seems emphasised compared to the standard Caiman. Bass is lighter, I feel - but it does appear that the sound is clearer. I wan't my bass back, though! No noticeable problem with female vocals as some have expressed. I think this mod will make the Caiman more critical of bad recordings, based on a couple of tracks that sound a bit ropey as standard, bloody awful now!

Some more burning in to do before drawing any conclusions* (never believed in it making a big difference before, until I bought the Caiman...) One thing's for sure, though - if it takes a fair few hours to achieve optimum sound then I doubt I will be trying many more (any more) caps, as life is too short not to be just listening to the music!

(*Cautiously optimistic, though, based on the sounds of the piano and glockenspiel in addition to her vocals on Charlotte Gainsbourg's 5:55)

Stratmangler

06-09-2010, 22:37

Quick first impressions: The soundstage has opened a little, (wider) and the midrange seems emphasised compared to the standard Caiman. Bass is lighter, I feel - but it does appear that the sound is clearer. I wan't my bass back, though! No noticeable problem with female vocals as some have expressed. I think this mod will make the Caiman more critical of bad recordings, based on a couple of tracks that sound a bit ropey as standard, bloody awful now!

Some more burning in to do before drawing any conclusions* (never believed in it making a big difference before, until I bought the Caiman...) One thing's for sure, though - if it takes a fair few hours to achieve optimum sound then I doubt I will be trying many more (any more) caps, as life is too short not to be just listening to the music!

(*Cautiously optimistic, though, based on the sounds of the piano and glockenspiel in addition to her vocals on Charlotte Gainsbourg's 5:55)

The caps take a while to settle in.

My son decided tonight that he'd watch the Wallace & Gromit movies (A Grand Day Out/The Wrong Trousers/A Close Shave), and I was gobsmacked at the amount of low end grunt coming off the brass band with the W&G theme tune - that and the clarity of the dialogue/sound effects.

I've got some Silmics in there ATM, and I like them a lot.
Nichicon Muse bi-polars were the last in, and I liked those too.

MartinT

07-09-2010, 05:32

I wan't my bass back, though!

It'll come back, don't worry :)

Ali Tait

07-09-2010, 09:10

Alex,if you can find out the input impedance of your amp,you may be able to try a film cap in there for a reasonable price,which should be better than any electrolytic.

Alex_UK

07-09-2010, 09:14

Thanks Martin - it has! Oooh my, needed double-figure hours, but the bass is back and the wholesound seems to be getting better. Biggest difference so far is definitely the wider soundstage and the word Chris (Stratmangler) used - "Clarity" is very appropriate. Noticed some splashy cymbals on a couple of tracks, which is the only negative I've heard so far, though hopefully that will improve. Not much time to listen today I suspect, but looking forward to trying some well known CDs later tonight. :)

Alex_UK

07-09-2010, 09:16

Thanks Ali - I'll do a bit more digging for specs then, as not in the manual.

Alex_UK

07-09-2010, 09:40

Alex,if you can find out the input impedance of your amp,you may be able to try a film cap in there for a reasonable price,which should be better than any electrolytic.

According to this review (http://www.epoz.com.au/Review%20Evolution%20Amp%20Hi%20Fi%20Critic%202008 .pdf) by Hifi Critic - "The line input impedance, measuring 9.5kohm, loads sources more than average" - being a techno (as well as vinyl!) numpty, that doesn't mean very much to me - does that mean I could try some film caps, and any suggestions where to start if I can?

Reid Malenfant

07-09-2010, 16:40

According to this review (http://www.epoz.com.au/Review%20Evolution%20Amp%20Hi%20Fi%20Critic%202008 .pdf) by Hifi Critic - "The line input impedance, measuring 9.5kohm, loads sources mofe than average" - being a techno (as well as vinyl!) numpty, that doesn't mean very much to me - does that mean I could try some film caps, and any suggestions where to start if I can?
What it means is you'll need to fit a larger value capacitor than a pre amp with say 50K or 100K input impedance to get the same -3Db point in the bass.

As an example you'll need an 8uf capacitor to get a -3Db point at approximately 5Hz with a 9500 ohm input impedance. Normally you'd want to make the -3Db point somewhere near 1Hz so you get the least amount of phase shift in the audio spectrum & also the least distortion.

If you wanted to go to 1Hz -3Db you'll need a 40uf capacitor which is close to what you are using now. A 40uf film cap will be rather big to say the least, you might get away with 10uf though ;)

Alex_UK

07-09-2010, 16:57

Thanks for that Mark, makes sense.

Stratmangler

09-09-2010, 13:23

Caps arrived today Alex - many thanks.
Initial impressions are that they're a little bit brighter than the Elna Silmics that I've had in for a while now.
I'll leave 'em running in for a few days and see how they settle down.

RoboCopper

09-09-2010, 13:38

Stratmangler

09-09-2010, 13:49

rubycon bp 47uF

Alex_UK

09-09-2010, 14:04

Glad they got there safe Chris. (Albeit Mr Postie should have got them there yesterday as they went 1st class early Tuesday.) Look forward to hearing what you think compared to the others you've tried in due course. I'm very happy with them compared to the Opamp board, but they are the only ones I've tried. I must say this mod is doing the business though - piano especially just sounds so amazingly real. Best £1.08 I've ever spent! Still going to try Stan's new board if it comes out, though, as would be nice to have headphones for the odd time I listen that way.

Jason P

10-09-2010, 09:59

Well, I've just done the passive mod, and whilst I appreciate AOS isn't the 'wam...

F****** HELL!!

What a difference, at least in my system. Soundstage has become so wide and deep I almost thought I'd got something out of phase, but that's not possible. So initial (and I mean initial - less than 2 hours) impressions are increased separation, more 'air' and ambience (thanks to cleaner HF?), leaner bass (but not less - just not as rounded, if that makes sense) and much more detail overall.

A/B ing between the CDs analogue outs and the Caiman is a bit tricky as the levels are different, but there is a very different presentation now, whereas there wasn't before.

Think I'll try the board when it's released!!

Jason

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 10:55

If you think it's good now,try it with some good film caps.

StanleyB

10-09-2010, 12:47

Well, I've just done the passive mod, and whilst I appreciate AOS isn't the 'wam...
We don't hide in a tent, but are a lot more open minded ;).

chrism

10-09-2010, 14:05

Hi Stan,

Any chance of doing a limited run of "passive" Caiman's as I am thinking of one for my tele system. Stripped down lean and hungry version without a PS and with the Murata's would do!

Regards

Chris

StanleyB

10-09-2010, 14:15

Hi Chris, I have a couple of caps from Tirna. I can possibly afford to let you have two pieces and fit them for you. PM or email me.

Covenant

10-09-2010, 14:26

If you think it's good now,try it with some good film caps.

Ali, do you think Stan or Leo should experiment a bit with these to see if they are better in the discrete board (if they are suitable)?

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 14:43

Stan's the man to answer that,but I've found a good film cap sounds better with the passive mod than anything else I've tried.Mind you,I am using SCR teflons,which cost more than the dac!

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 14:44

Saying that though,you could try Clarity Caps,quite cheap and very good,will give most of the sound of the SCR for a fraction of the price IMO.

MartinT

10-09-2010, 14:47

Ali - I have yet to try my Clarity Caps as I'm so enjoying the sound with the Rubycon electrolytics. I'll swap them in soon.

Covenant

10-09-2010, 14:47

Stan's the man to answer that,but I've found a good film cap sounds better with the passive mod than anything else I've tried.Mind you,I am using SCR teflons,which cost more than the dac!

Eeeek!:eek:

Gazjam

10-09-2010, 14:48

RoboCopper

10-09-2010, 15:20

Think I'll try the board when it's released!!

Jason

Can someone shed some light about this board which is about to be released, please?
Any links?
Regards

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 15:29

Ali - I have yet to try my Clarity Caps as I'm so enjoying the sound with the Rubycon electrolytics. I'll swap them in soon.

Give them a go,you won't be disappointed Martin.

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 15:32

Best 'litic caps I've tried (by far actually) are the Nicheon KZ ones..
Tried Slimic II's, Rubicons, Nicheon FG.

Still the Green Nicheon ES type to try...a few guys swear by these so should be interesting.

THEN, I'll try a suitable (i.e. sensibly priced!) film cap.

Ali, remember the improvement we heard with your linear PSU on your 7510?
Good jump with my Caiman usng the Maplin CBR Linear psu...wasn;t sure if it would be as I had the Mutara regs fitted?
and Im sure the PSU internals couild be improved upon as well..

Good stuff mate,I'll have to come across sometime soon.I'll bring the MLTL's and the AN dac.I've also just done the shunt mod on the volume pot in the Pre 2.This has made a real improvement,about the same step up as the passive mod,so well worthwhile.

Alex_UK

10-09-2010, 15:39

Can someone shed some light about this board which is about to be released, please?
Any links?
Regards

Here you go: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7623

Alex_UK

10-09-2010, 16:33

I thought I'd give another quick update - if you haven't tried this mod - DO IT! I don't think it an exaggeration to say this is the biggest improvement I've made to my (digital side of the) system in the last 18 months. Bear in mind that includes changing amps, adding the Caiman in the first place, Mark Grant Speaker cables and G1000HD from Caiman to amp.

I've been listening to some well-known CDs today - whenever I read the cliché "rediscovering my record collection" I always wince a little (sorry to those who've used it!) and I'm not quite going to go that far, but as Jason P has posted above and I mentioned earlier, the improvements to the soundstage are amazing! (Jason - £20 says your bass will be much much fuller after 20-50 hours running in...) Clarity and separation are greatly improved as well. The slightly harsh treble on some cymbals has gone, and all in all, I'm a happy bunny. The other cliché I'm not fond of is "night and day" - so I can't use that one, but it is definitely a quite astonishing improvement.

So, then - film caps could be even better? Any suggestions on reasonably priced oness - my amp has an input impedence of 9.5 k ohms so Mark (Reid Malenfant) said above "If you wanted to go to 1Hz -3Db you'll need a 40uf capacitor which is close to what you are using now. A 40uf film cap will be rather big to say the least, you might get away with 10uf though" so something around that that won't break the bank and will fit in the Caiman would be great, please. :)

Gazjam

10-09-2010, 16:43

+1
Its a great improvement doing this mod.

Alex, try using a linear PSU with your Dac...even more improvement.
I use the Maplin CB Radio one Stan recommended...big jump over the standard one...and even my old Maplin variable switching one set to 15v.

Try it, think you'll be surprised.
Also try different Capacitors with your Passive mod - they all sound different.
Nicheon KZ 50v best for me by a country mile.

The film caps are my next move I think.

Gaz.

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 16:53

Sorry Alex,I didn't get back to you on this,I've been looking for something at 10uF that will fit,and I've been struggling TBH.Anyone any ideas?

Puffin

10-09-2010, 17:17

+1
Its a great improvement doing this mod.

Ales, try using a linear PSU with your Dac...even more improvement.
I use the Maplin CB Radio one Stan recommended...Try it, think you'll be surprised.

Stick a "Ripple Eater" between the PS and Dac and then see what you think :eek:

http://www.gt6.co.uk/JLHPSRR/John%20Linsley%20Hood%20ripple%20Eater%20-%20Rock%20Grotto%20Charity%20Edition.html

Alex_UK

10-09-2010, 17:20

Sorry Alex,I didn't get back to you on this,I've been looking for something at 10uF that will fit,and I've been struggling TBH.Anyone any ideas?

No worries Ali. I found these - but not sure how big the 10uF would be, or if they would be worth trying: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sonicap-Film-Capacitor-10uf-220V-your-crossover-/320289182819?pt=Componenti_elettronici_passivi&hash=item4a92b91463#ht_650wt_911

Alex_UK

10-09-2010, 17:25

Is the PSU the XM20W Gaz (Stan's original link not working any more) - and does it work ok with just the Passive Output mod?

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 17:30

Aye that's the problem Alex,no bother finding 10uF film caps,it's finding one that will fit inside the dac.

Jason P

10-09-2010, 18:20

Ales, try using a linear PSU with your Dac...even more improvement.
I use the Maplin CB Radio one Stan recommended...big jump over the standard one...and even my old Maplin variable switching one set to 15v.

Better than the standard Caiman PSU? The upgraded one Stan sent out with the Caiman?

Jason

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 18:22

Yes.

Jason P

10-09-2010, 18:40

Yes.

Oh god, I feel a slippery slope coming on!!

J

StanleyB

10-09-2010, 18:42

Oh god, I feel a slippery slope coming on!!
Let me guess: it's a caiman hide leather wallet:lolsign:.

Ali Tait

10-09-2010, 18:50

:lolsign:

leo

10-09-2010, 19:46

There was some green jacket Nichicon BP caps that came with the Legato stage for the BII dac, I didn't really rate them tbh in that dac and found cheap 10uf Wima MKT's to be a lot better. I've now tried the Nichicons in the Caiman passive out and Stans new discrete stage and didn't get on with them there either :doh: The high's sound quite dirty to my ears, maybe need more running in :scratch: I've ordered some 10uf 100v MKP2000 to try in the BII dac after another members recommendation so will try them with the Caiman too

Gazjam

11-09-2010, 08:13

Is the PSU the XM20W Gaz (Stan's original link not working any more) - and does it work ok with just the Passive Output mod?

Yup, its that one Alex.
Costs around £25

no probs with the passive output mod, thats how I run mine.

StanleyB

11-09-2010, 08:52

Stick a "Ripple Eater" between the PS and Dac and then see what you think :eek:

http://www.gt6.co.uk/JLHPSRR/John%20Linsley%20Hood%20ripple%20Eater%20-%20Rock%20Grotto%20Charity%20Edition.html
I designed a DC power supply noise and ripply filter, which both Leo and me have been trying out. It's a fraction of the price as well ;). Something for the future I guess.

Ali Tait

11-09-2010, 09:32

I'd say you'd get a fair bit of interest in that Stan.Could be a good seller.

Alex_UK

11-09-2010, 10:46

Yup, its that one Alex.
Costs around £25

no probs with the passive output mod, thats how I run mine.

Cheers mate!

Gazjam

11-09-2010, 10:48

Having heard the improvments paying attention to the power side of things can make (and it being important enough a consideration enough for the likes of Naim etc.. :)), I'd be interested in this one Stan.

...like the "fraction of the price" comment too..
(Typical Scotsman :lol:)

ta.
Gary.

Gazjam

11-09-2010, 11:02

Cheers mate!

IF you get it -course you will :)- be good to know what you think.
I'd take a look at diffrent caps for the passive mod too Alex, quite a bit of scope for tailoring the sound to your tastes..

Covenant

11-09-2010, 16:13

Here is my power supply now fitted with a Ripple Eater circuit courtesy of a well respected gentleman of this parish. I would say if you have gone to the trouble of a 15v supply for the Standac then the RE is a must.

MartinT

11-09-2010, 16:52

Unless you're already using a SuperTeddy PSU in which case 'ripple eating' is already incorporated :)

Tony G

12-09-2010, 11:33

Sorry Alex,I didn't get back to you on this,I've been looking for something at 10uF that will fit,and I've been struggling TBH.Anyone any ideas?
This (http://www.diyhifisupply.com/node/367) looks to me like it might be a go.

Ali Tait

12-09-2010, 11:37

Yep well spotted Tony.That would do the job nicely.

Alex_UK

12-09-2010, 11:46

Thanks Tony - that does look like it would squeeze in, I'll give them a try. Cheers again. (And Ali.)

Tony G

12-09-2010, 11:56

UR both Velcome,
Hope it sounds OK Alex.
Ali is it 0.47uF Teflon you are using ? - not sure I want to go that exxy but my amp is 100K in so if 0.47 works for you it will for me even if something a little cheaper.
ciao
T

Ali Tait

12-09-2010, 12:30

Yes it is Tony.Try the Clarity Cap ESA's from Hi-Fi Collective,cheap and very good IMO.I've used them before and thy give most of the performance of the SCR at a fraction of the price.Don't think you can better them for a fiver apiece.

Tony G

12-09-2010, 13:45

Thanks for the recommendation Ali, the price is rather more acceptable :)

Ali Tait

12-09-2010, 14:09

Let us know what you think.

Tony G

12-09-2010, 15:35

I will, but don't hold your breath - it might be a month yet. :)
The gator is on holiday ATM and a rather nice lady is filling in for him with a rather stunning performance of her own.

fmzip

21-09-2010, 02:42

Just put a pair of Clarity Caps 1uf @630v in the Caiman.......
Sounds nice, going to give them a week to burn in.

Then I will try the Clarity Cap 4.7uf @ 250v.....

lemon

22-09-2010, 08:38

Clive

22-09-2010, 08:42

Sorry for my english (it is not my native language).

I have confused my friends.
What is the relationship of the capacity in the analog output signal on passive output?
The datasheet of WM8716 (section passive output), refer to the use 10uF electrolytic coupling capacitor (with the addition of RC low pass filter).
I understand that the installation of this coupling capacitor is to remove the DC voltage from the signal of analogue output. But this can be achieved for example with a 2.2uF capacitor.
So, what recommend capacity 10-47uF with electrolytic capacitor and not a good MKP with capacity 1-3uF about?

(Note = Ι use the passive output on my adapted 7520 for about 1.5 year).
People have been using 47uF to be sure that DC will be fully blocked even into low impedance inputs (10K?). This is mostly totally unnecessary. I'm using 1uF but I'm lucky enough to have a preamp with 100k input impedance. You are of course totally totally correct, an MKP will beat any electrolytic

lemon

22-09-2010, 09:08

Thanks for the quick respond, "Clive".

RoboCopper

22-09-2010, 09:20

While I am waiting for my 7520 to get repaired, I wonder what are the range of values of Capacitors to be used with passive mod?
I can see that members use almost all sort of uF and voltages?
Is there any specifics and above SAFE recommendation to be used with passive mod?
Thank you
p.s. I do not want to ruin my Beresford with the wrong capacitor.

Ali Tait

22-09-2010, 09:30

You won't damage the dac,but using an unsuitable value will give you an uneven frequency response.Clive and myself are using 0.47uF as our preamps are 100k input impedance,so using this low value is fine.It also means we can use a good quality film cap which will beat an electrolytic any day in the SQ stakes.If you know the input impedance of your amp/preamp,let us know and we can advise on a suitable value.Otherwise,just use an electrlytic of 47uF and the dac will be fine with any piece of kit.

MartinT

22-09-2010, 09:32

The function of this capacitor is to block the approx. 2.5V DC and pass through audio frequencies down to deep bass. Values of between 1uF and 47uF are fine with a working voltage of at least 6V. The exact value is not that important but if you will be running the Caiman into a preamp input with less than 100k input impedance then you should stick to the higher values.

You are unlikely to ruin your Caiman with an incorrect value. Watch out for switch-on thumps with the higher values - turn the volume down or change inputs before switching on the Caiman.

Marco

22-09-2010, 09:40

Hi "Robocopper"

Could you please add your basic geographic location, and first name to the signature on your profile? This is a requirement of all members on AoS.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

While I am waiting for my 7520 to get repaired, I wonder what are the range of values of Capacitors to be used with passive mod?
I can see that members use almost all sort of uF and voltages?
Is there any specifics and above SAFE recommendation to be used with passive mod?
Thank you
p.s. I do not want to ruin my Beresford with the wrong capacitor.

Clive

22-09-2010, 09:45

RoboCopper

22-09-2010, 09:58

Thanks for the tips and the calculator. I am happy to hear that even the wrong value can not damage 7520 :)
Any tips for the best capacitor with fast sound, tight bass, open mids and sweet highs?
Rob

Marco

22-09-2010, 10:18

Thank you, Roberto! :)

Marco.

RoboCopper

22-09-2010, 10:21

You are welcome Marco,
FYI, I found this forum to have most helpful and knowledgeable members when compared to other forums.

Thank you

Clive

22-09-2010, 10:30

Thanks for the tips and the calculator. I am happy to hear that even the wrong value can not damage 7520 :)
Any tips for the best capacitor with fast sound, tight bass, open mids and sweet highs?
Rob
When you're looking at MKP / polypropylene caps then as Delboy would say, the world is your lobster.

Exotic Teflons will be good but expensive. For MKP there are ClarityCap, Obbligato (I'm using these), MCap, Jupiter Condenser......many, many more.

Ali Tait

22-09-2010, 11:13

Clarity Cap are very good for the money IMO.

Canetoad

22-09-2010, 13:45

My NAD amp has imput impedance of 50K, so it recommends 1.59 uF. Is this correct?

MartinT

22-09-2010, 14:11

In standardised values, that means 2.2uF or higher.

OLED

23-09-2010, 12:42

My NAD amp has imput impedance of 50K, so it recommends 1.59 uF. Is this correct?

This can be perfectly matched to Clarity caps ESA which offer 1.6 uF, and they fit inside the Caiman box! I'll post a picture when I have time. You can get them from Hi-Fi Collective. And they do sound much better than electrolytics!

Cheers

Canetoad

23-09-2010, 13:50

Just ordered 2 to try.:)

Gazjam

23-09-2010, 15:27

This can be perfectly matched to Clarity caps ESA which offer 1.6 uF, and they fit inside the Caiman box! I'll post a picture when I have time. You can get them from Hi-Fi Collective. And they do sound much better than electrolytics!

Cheers

My Cambridge 640a amp is 47k Ohms impedance...pretty close to 50?
Would the 1.6uF Calrity ESA be ideal for me too?

Also,
I notice from the Claritycap Specs, the termination wire is 1mm diameter.
I noticed a problem fitting some 'lytic caps that the wire was too thick to slot into the holes in the opamp board socket on the Caiman board, and I had to file them back a bit to get them to fit.
With the ESA film caps, would this be a problem?
Or Would it be better (in sound quality/practicality terms) to solder some thinner hookup wire into the Clarity cap Termination wire and feed the thinner wire into the small opamp board socket holes?

Or would it not matter - just file them thinner so they fit?

thanks, ready to pull the trigger in this one if the film caps are better than 'lytics. :)

Gazjam

23-09-2010, 15:30

Just ordered 2 to try.:)

What have you got in there at the moment Bernie?
I'm using Nicheon Muse ES (the green ones..)

Canetoad

23-09-2010, 17:51

Just a pair of 47uF Rubycons from Tirna. Haven't had them in for long but they sound OK. Thought I might as well try some nice film caps to see if the sound improves.:)

Ali Tait

23-09-2010, 19:05

They do sound better IMO.I have some SCR Teflon in my 7510 at the moment.Very good indeed,though they cost more than the dac!

Gary,I'd say the same value should be ok,and yes,just file the leads.

Gazjam

23-09-2010, 19:38

They do sound better IMO.I have some SCR Teflon in my 7510 at the moment.Very good indeed,though they cost more than the dac!

Gary,I'd say the same value should be ok,and yes,just file the leads.

Thanks Ali, top man as usual!
Sounds like a go-er then (like my ex...but thats ANOTHER story...):)

Oh Ali, I just realised that my Caiman is a fair bit different to how it was when we had that "Dac off" with your 7510..

Its now had the passive mod done and had a linear supply fitted. Both these things have made good improvements over what you heard before..

even without that foo mains lead I had!

I'd be thinking about the Caiman again....:eyebrows:
Next up, after trying film caps, is upgrading components in my linear PSU.
Its the Maplin CB radio one tweaked to 15v HERE: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5893&highlight=linear+caiman

any pointers to what I should be looking for?

Ali Tait

23-09-2010, 19:57

Cool,maybe I could come over sometime.I could bring the AN dac and my linear supply for the Standac to compare.I could bring the MLTL's too if you like? Oh,and the Pre 2 if you like?

OLED

24-09-2010, 13:15

Sorry to all for not replying sooner, just not enough hours in each day at the moment....

Here's a photo of the Caiman with it's ESA's etc. Cheers.

RoboCopper

24-09-2010, 13:17

Looks good :) Well done.
What are the values of the caps?
Can you describe the sound?

OLED

24-09-2010, 13:30

Thank you RobboCopper. The Coupling caps are 1.6 uF (Clarity Cap ESA). The power input cap is an Mundorf MKP 10uF. In terms of sound, all most all harshness has gone from the high frequency (compared to electrolytics, previously I used black gates). The sound is just bigger, much more natural such that you can start to forget about the electronics and listen to the music (better mid range I think). They take a good half hour of actual playing to really come to life, I leave something playing in the background for a while before really listening. They have been in for two weeks and more and more I am getting 'spookey' 3D on certain tracks, that's when it gets really good. One slight draw back, my system now really shows up poor recordings or rather bad production.

Cheers Andy

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 14:26

Seems a good description of what a decent film cap does.I can relate to that.

OLED

24-09-2010, 16:02

Cheers Ali;)

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 16:23

I do like the SCR's,but I recently put some AN coppers into my Zero dac and thought they were even better,hence why the SCR's ended up in the 7510.Maybe should try the coppers in there sometime,too big to fit in the case though!

Clive

24-09-2010, 16:28

I've just put some AN Silvers (0.15uF) in my power amps. I'm sure these would be wonderful in the 7520 but at over £1,000 for a pair of 1uF I don't think it's a good idea.....

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 17:50

Yikes! Better things to spend £1000 on methinks.

Clive

24-09-2010, 19:39

Yikes! Better things to spend £1000 on methinks.
Yes £1k on 2 caps would be crazy. Having said that....the ones I have in my amps, if they don't change with more hours on them, are the aural equivalent of 1080p or better! They sound even better as they were free, not their list price, which is around £430.

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 20:02

Never heard any Clive,I would like to sometime.The coppers are very good IMO,are the silvers that much better?

Clive

24-09-2010, 20:05

Never heard any Clive,I would like to sometime.The coppers are very good IMO,are the silvers that much better?
I have both, the coppers are great, the silvers are in a different universe. Maybe V-Caps are similar, I but I've not heard V-caps in my system.

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 20:26

Thanks Clive,maybe worth saving up for then!

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 20:30

...Or you could tell me how to get some free! :eyebrows:

MartinT

24-09-2010, 20:34

I must try my 1uF ClarityCap ESAs. I'm just being lazy because I'll have to extend the legs to make them fit. Perhaps tomorrow.

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 20:50

They are very good IMO Martin,get your finger out!

Clive

24-09-2010, 21:17

...Or you could tell me how to get some free! :eyebrows:
Ahh well now.....I mustn't give away all my secrets.

MartinT

24-09-2010, 21:17

Ok - doing it now!

MartinT

24-09-2010, 21:52

Done it and it's running-in on MTV HD. Will give it a proper listen tomorrow.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8480/8223567594_9e3d97318c_b.jpg

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 22:11

Think you will be pleasantly surprised Martin,they do take a while to run in though.

Ali Tait

24-09-2010, 22:12

Ahh well now.....I mustn't give away all my secrets.

Ok,PM me then! :lol:

OLED

25-09-2010, 12:16

About time you got those ESA's in Martin:lol: Give them a couple of days worth of background playing and then prepare all you favourite CD's to be reappraised all over again. I also just got my Abbey Road Reference speaker cable which together with the new caps has made a really tangible improvement, even with 15 year old speakers!

Cheers Andy

MartinT

25-09-2010, 20:34

Ali Tait

25-09-2010, 20:39

It will.May take a while though.

sum1

27-09-2010, 01:14

http://www.hifiwatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Modified-7520.jpg

From back to front of PIN3A (actually called "PIN3B" on the lower board) the connections are:

o Cap A +ve
o Cap A -ve
o no connection
o Cap B -ve
o Cap B +ve

Andrew

Hi guys,

I am quite interested in doing this mod however i like to ask some questions before i attempt to do it.

1. Andrew's method is the only option if i were to do it without soldering right?
2. i am a bit confused on how the caps would actually slot into the PIN3A. I am assuming its not soldered but if i just shove it down to the pin would the caps make a firm enough contact to the slot (i'm just thinking about it since i would assume those cap legs are not usually meant to be used that way unlike the opamps dip8 legs)

3. Also if i do it Andrew's way i understand i would lose the headphone out but do i also lose the variable output (or does it become a 2nd fixed output)?
4. Since i am in Aus i would guess the best place is to buy the caps that are sold from Tirna right?

Cheers,
Sonny

chrism

27-09-2010, 07:18

Hi Sonny,

The solution does not need any soldering just board pulling (cutting or melting the glue). The new caps should just push into the slots but larger caps with thick legs may need a bit of filing down. I used the grey Rubycon caps and they fitted in easily. You will lose the headphone capability but not the variable output. I still use mine as a preamp as well.

Regards

Chris

OLED

27-09-2010, 08:15

Sonni,

If you mean that you want to replace all the capacitors with Elnas' etc, the hard part is desoldering the originals. If you just want to go passive output, as Chris says, that's much easier.

Good luck, Andy

sum1

27-09-2010, 08:55

Yeah i just wanted to try the passive output mod so i guess it should be pretty easy.

Just wondering what to look for when shopping for the capacitor.

If i know the compatible specs for it then i might even try asking some shops around to see if they have some exotic caps like claritycaps and such.
I'm trying to see if i can get some from the local farnell shop instead of importing from Tirna but i am perplexed by the options. Will all of these work??? I cant seem to find one that look like the one from Tirna

http://au.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=1000095+5437637+1520&No=0&locale=en_AU&appliedparametrics=true&getResults=true&catalogId=&prevNValues=1000095+5437637+314107&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN% 3D1000095%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedpa rametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Den_AU%26catalogId%3D%2 6prevNValues%3D1000095

Ali Tait

27-09-2010, 09:23

If you are planning to use film caps,be aware that you will struggle to find any at 47uF that will fit in the case.However,if you know the input impedance of your amp/preamp,a smaller value can be used,allowing them to fit.They do sound better than electrolytics IMO.

OLED

27-09-2010, 12:35

Sonni,

If your (pre) amp has an input impedance of 50k ohm (standardish), then Clarity Caps at 1, 1.5 or 1.6 uF are fine. The 1.6uF fit in the case nicely as well. You can get them mail order if you can not find a local supplier. Other links on this thread will direct you to a calculator to get a good idea of what you might need if your amp has a vastly different input impedance.

Cheers Andy

OLED

27-09-2010, 12:40

First impressions of the ClarityCaps are good: highly transparent, extended treble, good soundstage. I'm hoping that the bass will extend out as it is a little light at the moment compared with the Rubycons.

Hi Martin,

Hows the bass? Mine has grown a lot but in a nice controlled fashion. The 'native' drums on Belakis Queen of Sheeba really sound spot on now, you can almost picture a bit of skin being hit by something;)!

Cheers Andy

Ali Tait

27-09-2010, 13:11

Clarity Caps can be bought from Hi-Fi Collective.

Clive

27-09-2010, 13:28

Take a look at the calculators on this page: http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php

If you take a couple of minutes to read the text and understand the 2 calculators you'll see why the values can vary depending for your situation. There is no "right" value as such, just a range as Martin said.

For me with 100k input impedance 0.8uF is recommended (I have 1uF in there). For a 10k input impedance you need more like 8uF.

Running the more typical amp input impedances through the calculator gives:

for 10k use 8uF
for 20k use 4uF
for 50k use 1.6uF
for 100k use 0.8uF

Simply use the value that corresponds to you amp's input impedance, where the capacitor is not available in the correct value then increase the value, eg 1uF in for 0.8uF.

Large values such as 47uF are used to ensure compatibility with any amp but such values are way over the top.

What's really scary is how much sonic damage a well executed opamp does vs a capacitor.....and capacitors are not exactly straightwire perfect in the first place!

Ali Tait

27-09-2010, 13:57

Though I am using 0.47uF into 100k and it sounds fine.

Clive

27-09-2010, 14:04

Though I am using 0.47uF into 100k and it sounds fine.
Ali, I know you're aware this fairly approximate stuff anyway.

Your 0.47uF seems to give a -3db frequency of 7Hz with possible ringing occurring up to 70Hz. It may be the ringing only goes up to say 30Hz, which for most people would be totally acceptable. The values are really just a best guess starting point. Experimenting with capacitors you already have that aren't miles out in value is a good way to go.

Cheers,

Clive

Ali Tait

27-09-2010, 14:18

It's not used for critical listening anyway
Clive,just to play the Sky box through.Does sound very good doing this though.

apmusson

28-09-2010, 10:54

Wow.

I have been absent from the forum for a few months (distracted by holidays / work / kids - no excuse - i'm sorry) and have been enjoying my caiman (murata regs/ linear Maplin PSU / DAC and Opamp Board cap upgrades) very much. It was a bit of a shock to see this thread with so many posts in it from you guys.

Anyway I read every page of the thread and was very intrigued by the positive comments on this mod by nearly everyone so yesterday I ordered some Nichelon KZ caps to try it for myself. They arrived about 2 hours ago, I fitted them, plugged my Caiman in and stuck a CD playing on repeat. I know I should be waiting before listening etc etc but I had to have a sneak peak.

Wow. The Caiman is an amazing DAC in stock form (performing well above its price point), it improves with the regs, DAC caps and linear PSU. It has jumped again with this mod. I think that it may be the one that provides the biggest improvement???

Ade

Ali Tait

28-09-2010, 11:05

Yep,agreed,it really lifts the performance IMO.

MartinT

28-09-2010, 18:59

Now that I've put 48+ hours on them I gave the ClarityCap 1uF coupling caps a proper listen. I used my Sony Blu-ray player as a CD transport with co-ax into the Caiman, comparing with my Ayre C-5xe MP universal player. This is a massively unfair comparison!

The Caiman does very well indeed, especially in the midrange where it almost has the fine detail and transparency of the Ayre and in the treble where it has a similar level of non-harshness. Only in the bass is it a little light in comparison, although the ClarityCaps are better at bass resolution than the Rubycons, if not weight. Overall, this combination transport and DAC at around £500 punches well above its weight and is not at all embarrassed. I'm not about to sell my Ayre but I could certainly live with the sound the Caiman makes. For Sky HD and Blu-ray duties it is superb.

I may buy a pair of 2.2uF ClarityCaps and see if I can fit them in the case. I will probably solder them in rather than use the sockets in the end. That could be my final configuration.

StanleyB

28-09-2010, 19:22

That could be my final configuration.
Are those your famous last words;)?

RoboCopper

28-09-2010, 19:29

Now that I've put 48+ hours on them I gave the ClarityCap 1uF coupling caps a proper listen.

Hi MartinT,
What is the voltage rating of the cap ?
Where did you get it from?

Regards
Rob

Ali Tait

28-09-2010, 19:33

Give them longer Martin,I found they take quite a while to settle down.

MartinT

28-09-2010, 19:45

What is the voltage rating of the cap ?
Where did you get it from?

ClarityCap ESA 1uF 630V £5.10 each from http://www.hificollective.co.uk/

MartinT

28-09-2010, 19:46

Give them longer Martin,I found they take quite a while to settle down.

I certainly will - they're getting a diet of Sky MTV HD every night when I go to bed.

MartinT

28-09-2010, 19:47

Are those your famous last words;)?

I just know I'll regret typing that :)

OLED

29-09-2010, 12:46

Is that your final statement Martin?

MartinT

29-09-2010, 12:53

;)

RoboCopper

30-09-2010, 08:02

I did the mod from the post 1 of this thread.

After messing up 7520 with my bad soldering skills and killing it, I got lucky as my friend (experienced DIY electrician) found what the problem was with the 7520 board. He solder it back. (picture 1, circled).
Not just that, he also replaced and upgraded the DAC chip from Burr Brown PCM1716 DAC chip to a Wolfson WM8716 (he needed only 7 minutes :mex: for that job, pic 2)!!! ;)
Thanks to all who helped with advices.

Now I am in a hunt for perfect capacitor as I can do the passive mod the easy way as suggested in post 117 (thanks AndrewR)http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=135736&postcount=117.

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 08:19

hey Roberto,

I've tried quite a few different capacitors for the passive mod, all rated at 47uF but with differing voltages;

Nicheon Muse FG 10v
Nicheon Muse ES 6.3v
Elna Skimic II 10v
Nicheon Muse KZ 25v
Nicheon Muse KZ 50v

I gave each one a couple of weeks "burn in" where I noticed that the sound changed over time till it finally settled down.

Best one for me was the Nicheon Muse KZ 50v, great all rounder but the kicker for me was it made music sound "alive", with it the music just seems to make a direct connection to your ears...and the good hifi stuff didnt matter.

Only thing with the KZ is that the metal legs are slightly thicker than the other caps, and have to be filed back a bit to fit in the socket holes on the Dac pcb.
5 minute job not a problem, and NO soldering involved! ;)

A few of the other guys have tried different caps too, but its system dependant I suppose, so its worth trying different ones to see what suits you and your system.

I'm looking at Film capacitors, apparently a big step up from electrolytic ones.
The ClarityCaps ESA range is what Im looking at.

Maybe thats the "ultimate" capacitor for the passive mod?

RoboCopper

30-09-2010, 08:32

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 08:52

Thanks for the suggestions Gazjam,
As I decided to read all this LOOOONG but important thread I am also coming to conclusion that Clarity ESA Caps are the most mentioned as most suitable for this mod. It seems that voltage and uF value is of importance too in relation to SQ and different systems? Too many choices :)

Aye..too many choices,
BUT..with the Clarity Caps your limited by the physical SIZE of the things, unless you want the caps to sit outside your dac.
You dont. :)

The 1.6Uf ones fit in the case quite well, but need some hookup wire soldered on to the metal legs for them to fit into the Dac properly.

Check back, theres a couple of photos posted in this thread showing what needs to be done.

Gaz.

MartinT

30-09-2010, 09:27

See my photo here, Roberto, even the 1uF ClarityCaps are big!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=152346&postcount=654

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 09:49

There are better caps than the Clarity Caps IMO,but they will cost significantly more.I am using some SCR teflons,as I had them spare,but these cost more than the dac.The CC's are very hard to beat for the money I think.

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 10:52

See my photo here, Roberto, even the 1uF ClarityCaps are big!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=152346&postcount=654

looking good Martin!

Are the 1.6's MUCH bigger than these?
As long as they fit inside the case! :)

thanks.

OLED

30-09-2010, 11:02

looking good!
Are the 1.6's MUCH bigger than these?
As long as they fit inside the case! :)

thanks.

No, if anything they are very slightly smaller in diameter, they fit nicely (see the photo a couple of pages back in the thread)

Cheers Andy

OLED

30-09-2010, 11:04

Are those your famous last words;)?

Hi Stan, sent you a PM

Cheers Andy

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 12:13

No, if anything they are very slightly smaller in diameter, they fit nicely (see the photo a couple of pages back in the thread)

Cheers Andy

Cheers Andy!

A question for those in the know? :)

I know theres a function between bass level, input impedance on your amp and the uF value of the caps....?
will the 1.6uF give a different bass response to the 1uF?

ta.

OLED

30-09-2010, 12:23

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 12:24

1.6uF should be fine if your amp's input impedance is 50k Gary.

HighFidelityGuy

30-09-2010, 12:27

Cheers Andy!

A question for those in the know? :)

I know theres a function between bass level, input impedance on your am and the uF value of the caps....?
will the 1.6uF give a different bass response to the 1uF?

ta.

Yes, 1.6 will give a slightly lower roll-off frequency but what that frequency is will be dependant on the input impedance of your amp. There's a link to a website that does the calculation for you on a previous page. You're probably only talking a difference of less than 1Hz though, so probably not an audible difference but you'd have to do the calculations tobe sure.

MartinT

30-09-2010, 13:24

From the Hi-Fi Collective website, the ClarityCap ESA 1uF is 20 x 38 mm and the 1.6uF is 22 x 38 mm. In fact, I'll abandon my idea to use the 2.2uF because it's just too big to fit the case (28 x 38), so I'll be buying a pair of 1.6uF too.

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 13:26

Yes, 1.6 will give a slightly lower roll-off frequency but what that frequency is will be dependant on the input impedance of your amp. There's a link to a website that does the calculation for you on a previous page. You're probably only talking a difference of less than 1Hz though, so probably not an audible difference but you'd have to do the calculations tobe sure.

Thanks for that Dave, my amp impedance is 47k Ohms.
Just concerned that the sound would be a bit bass light with the 1.6.....but a lower roll off freq. means the oppsosite?

excuse my ignornace! :)

apmusson

30-09-2010, 14:19

Gaz / Martin / Dave / Ali / Andy / All

I am waiting for two ClarityCap ESA 1.6uf to arrive from hificollective. I love the sound of the Nichelon KZ 47uf caps that have been running in for the last few days (the bass has extended into the floor) but am keen to try the ClarityCaps as a comparison.

I might even use the soldering iron that my wife bought me for Christmas last year to solder some bridging wire to the claritycaps so that i can insert them into the socket.... This will be the 1st time i've used it.... Scary. I think the clarity caps have tinned ends to help with soldering. Any tips/warnings appreciated. I am a complete novice!

Ade

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 14:22

Is it a Caiman you have?

apmusson

30-09-2010, 14:25

Is it a Caiman you have?

Yes. I have a Caiman with DAC cap and Murata Reg upgrades installed powered with a modded Maplins linear CB Radio PSU. All mods performed by Mr Jimmy Dripps.

Ade

MartinT

30-09-2010, 14:27

I think the clarity caps have tinned ends to help with soldering

Actually they have bare copper ends but I found that not all the enamel had been scraped off properly. I suggest you give the wire ends a little rub with sandpaper and then they will solder nicely.

apmusson

30-09-2010, 14:33

Actually they have bare copper ends but I found that not all the enamel had been scraped off properly. I suggest you give the wire ends a little rub with sandpaper and then they will solder nicely.

Thanks Martin

I will certainly do that. To tell you the truth I have been putting off messing with the caiman circuit board and the fact that I can do this soldering separately (where the only damage I could do is limited to the claritycaps) is giving me the confidence to attempt it.

Ade

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 14:45

Yes. I have a Caiman with DAC cap and Murata Reg upgrades installed powered with a modded Maplins linear CB Radio PSU. All mods performed by Mr Jimmy Dripps.

Ade

Hi Ade,

I've one of those Maplin CBR supply's, and are looking into improving the components in it...
Wouldn't mind some info on what you did to it, and a comment on the improvments?

Our Dacs seem to be at the same stage..

Reid Malenfant

30-09-2010, 15:03

Thanks for that Dave, my amp impedance is 47k Ohms.
Just concerned that the sound would be a bit bass light with the 1.6.....but a lower roll off freq. means the oppsosite?

excuse my ignornace! :)
You are highly unlikely to get any difference in audible bass level from changing a 1uf cap to 1.6uf ;) All you'll be doing is shifting the -3Db frequency lower & it'll already be sub 10Hz.

There is a very good reason for possibly doing this though & not a lot of people tend to think about it. The phase of the waveform will still be shifted slightly at audible frequencies (20Hz & higher) & this along with phase shifts caused by loudspeakers can be heard :doh:

What's even worse is that nearly every (if not all) bit/s of kit in the audio chain will also likely have a high pass filter due to capacitors at about the same frequency. The consequencies of this will definately be heard in the audio band :eek: In reality if all these DC blocking filters were at 0.1Hz or lower, there would be a definate increase in fidelity in the lower bass range due to vastly less equipment induced phase shift :)

Moral is to keep the -3Db frequency as low as possible except on a warp filter for a record deck :eyebrows:

chrism

30-09-2010, 15:32

Anyone tried 10uf caps in the Caiman (my amp is 20k ohm impedance)? Interested in the type of cap tried and benefits/disadvantages.

I think Leo tried some 10uf MKP2000 but not sure if he thought they bettered the good old "benchmark" 47uf non polar Rubycons.

Regards

Chris

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 15:53

I think he's still running them in,but I'd say any half decent film cap should better an electrolytic.

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 15:54

OMartin,how are you getting on with the CC's? Any further improvements?

apmusson

30-09-2010, 16:07

Gaz,

Sorry if I misled you - the mod I did was adjusting the output voltage as stan indicated in his post. I would love to be able to claim otherwise - but it just aint true. :doh:

I will definitely give an update on the ClarityCaps once I've soldered and installed them and given them 24 hours (?) burnin time.

Ade

Hi Ade,

I've one of those Maplin CBR supply's, and are looking into improving the components in it...
Wouldn't mind some info on what you did to it, and a comment on the improvments?

Our Dacs seem to be at the same stage..

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 16:31

MartinT

30-09-2010, 17:19

OMartin,how are you getting on with the CC's? Any further improvements?

They're improving nicely, Ali, but I don't quite have the subterranean bass of the Rubycons. My preamp's single-ended input impedance is 47k ohms. I'm going to order a couple of 1.6uF Clarity ESAs (the MRs are too big). I'll properly wrap them in foam to prevent vibration against the PCB rather than just use the foam pads I've stuck to the current ones.

MartinT

30-09-2010, 17:28

<later>
Damn, Hi-Fi Collective only have a single 1.6uF ESA in stock and won't let you backorder.

Has anyone tried AuriCaps? Their 2.2uF 200V is sized 23 x 20mm and cost £12.43 each.

RoboCopper

30-09-2010, 17:29

See my photo here, Roberto, even the 1uF ClarityCaps are big!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=152346&postcount=654

I personally DO NOT MIND small or HUGE capacitors. I DO NOT mind if I have to place them out of case as long as I am able to find perfect Sound Quality (for my ears and my system).
So any suggestions are welcome as long as the cost of caps is not silly.
Since I got my 7520 from repair I have not been closing case of my lovely Mr Beresford :lolsign: as well as burning in all those caps.

@MartinT
I love the way your Beresford is looking especially the passive Caps. What is your model of Beresford DAC? With what caps you have replaced the biggest power supply cap and is the SQ any better?

My present state of DAC :stalks:(just some random home found caps)

MartinT

30-09-2010, 17:44

What is your model of Beresford DAC? With what caps you have replaced the biggest power supply cap and is the SQ any better?

It's a Caiman. I replaced the big electrolytic with a pair of 2.2uF Panasonic film caps, which fit nicely. My power supply is a SuperTeddy set for exactly 16V. SQ with the ST and film caps is really excellent, very low noise floor and fine detail with no harshness.

(for completion, the regulators are Dexa and all electrolytics are Elna Silmic II).

Ali Tait

30-09-2010, 18:41

<later>
Damn, Hi-Fi Collective only have a single 1.6uF ESA in stock and won't let you backorder.

Has anyone tried AuriCaps? Their 2.2uF 200V is sized 23 x 20mm and cost £12.43 each.

Martin,look here.AFAIK these are rebranded CC's.

Oops! Forgot link-

http://world-designs.co.uk/sax.htm

Gentle Giant

30-09-2010, 18:46

The legs on my Rubycon 47uF 50V seems to thin. is it a problem?

OLED

30-09-2010, 19:11

They're improving nicely, Ali, but I don't quite have the subterranean bass of the Rubycons. My preamp's single-ended input impedance is 47k ohms. I'm going to order a couple of 1.6uF Clarity ESAs (the MRs are too big). I'll properly wrap them in foam to prevent vibration against the PCB rather than just use the foam pads I've stuck to the current ones.

Martin

Do you think the electrolytics sound bigger in the bass as it's less controlled and a bit boomy whereas the ESA's are a lot tighter and controlled so they sound smaller, you have the best bass extension to really tell. I think this to be the case though.

Cheers Andy

MartinT

30-09-2010, 19:38

I do find the ClarityCaps very tight and tuneful in the bass, it's true, but the Rubycons were no slouches and also had good quality, but fuller bass.

I sense a slight increase in value may do it, so I'm looking out for 1.6uF or 2.2uF that will fit.

MartinT

30-09-2010, 19:49

Martin,look here.AFAIK these are rebranded CC's.

Thanks, Ali. Meanwhile, I have ordered a pair of 2.2uF AuriCaps as they will fit and I can compare them with the ClarityCaps. I would still like, ultimately, to desolder the 5-way op-amp board socket and solder the caps permanently in place.

OLED

30-09-2010, 20:03

RoboCopper

30-09-2010, 20:56

As I just started to enjoy my passive mod and already ordered some caps for it, I think I will leave my Beresford in passive mode for good.

Now I want to upgrade regs for MuRata regs and need info which ones I should order?
I also understand that I only need one to upgrade if I do want to keep the passive mod in place.
So which one should be upgraded?
I know that this mod is somewhere on the forum, but I just want confirmation as which one to upgrade if I want only passive mod without opamp boards.
Or it is best to upgrade both MuRata regs if not too expensive?
Thank you

HighFidelityGuy

30-09-2010, 21:32

I personally DO NOT MIND small or HUGE capacitors. I DO NOT mind if I have to place them out of case as long as I am able to find perfect Sound Quality (for my ears and my system).
So any suggestions are welcome as long as the cost of caps is not silly.
Since I got my 7520 from repair I have not been closing case of my lovely Mr Beresford :lolsign: as well as burning in all those caps.

@MartinT
I love the way your Beresford is looking especially the passive Caps. What is your model of Beresford DAC? With what caps you have replaced the biggest power supply cap and is the SQ any better?

My present state of DAC :stalks:(just some random home found caps)

If you fancy trying something a bit different then Mundorf RXF (http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_rxf.html) are worth a try. I ran a pair of 22uF for a couple of weeks and found them quite good. Nice big sound stage and somehow made big stadium rock music sound especially good. They're rather big and difficult to use due to their shape and connection type, so that makes them a challenge. :eyebrows:

Clive

30-09-2010, 22:02

There's always V-Caps, most teflon caps will be great, but with very extended burn-in.

AN Silver should be great, quite large but HUGE price

Gazjam

30-09-2010, 22:42

Another Supplier?

http://sidekick-audio.com/gatoshop_uk/clarity-cap/esa-range.html?SID=b8618d58d89844f5875f265b410d601b&mode=list

fiver delivery up to a kg in weight though...
maybe another group buy chaps?

MartinT

01-10-2010, 06:36

Martin, have you compared the same 16 bit CD via the Caiman to the SACD disc playing via your Ayre to gauge the differences in detail etc? I'd be interested to know what up scaling and interpolation really does to the sound.

Bear in mind that the Caiman sounds very close to the Ayre (not quite the soundstage or fine detail but close) for CD replay. This in itself is a very good result as my Ayre has the latest MP (Minimum Phase) filter upgrade.

SACDs and DVD-As sound different. Hi-res DVD-As sound exactly as you would imagine a hi-res CD to sound: more extension in the treble, lack of harshness, incredible dynamic clout, better spatial acoustic.

SACDs sound more like analogue. They also have the sweet, extended treble and great dynamics but their strength is in spatial positioning and a heightened sense of reality.

There is no upscaling or interpolation going on with hi-res discs.

Gazjam

01-10-2010, 09:39

Bear in mind that the Caiman sounds very close to the Ayre (not quite the soundstage or fine detail but close) for CD replay. This in itself is a very good result as my Ayre has the latest MP (Minimum Phase) filter upgrade.

SACDs and DVD-As sound different. Hi-res DVD-As sound exactly as you would imagine a hi-res CD to sound: more extension in the treble, lack of harshness, incredible dynamic clout, better spatial acoustic.

SACDs sound more like analogue. They also have the sweet, extended treble and great dynamics but their strength is in spatial positioning and a heightened sense of reality.

There is no upscaling or interpolation going on with hi-res discs.

SACD does sound better than redbook, for exactly the reasons Martin has mentioned here.
Interesting aside here, I got reading about upscaling 16/44 to 24/96 and got curious about it. Cant hurt to try right? :scratch:

I could tell a difference quite easily. An improvement.
Again, for the reasons Martin has stated.
Theres no night and day, "veils being lifted" and all that hifi nonsense going on, but the soundstage is bigger and more focussed, and it sounds more "solid" sounding?

I'm not sure if I want to convert all my Flacs (waay to many and besides, life's too short - just enjoy the music! :)), but of the odd wet Sunday, I might do a few of my favourite albums.

Martin, regarding Upscaling and Interpolation of 16/44 material, whats your take on the benefits/other of it?
Of course a SACD or DVD-A is better, but maybe using something like Foobar(*) or a commercial product to convert 16/44 to 24/96 could be a good thing?

(*) For those curious to try, I scoured various computeraudio and music production forums getting opinions on this, and and the best method of upsampling based on general opinion that I could see(subjectively to my ears of course..:)) was using Foobar with the SOX plug-in at default settings.

Cant hurt to try, its free and you might even like it?

StanleyB

01-10-2010, 09:58

What are the benefits of upupscaling? Is there any additional information in an audio file that cannot be decoded by the DAC in the original playback, but would be decoded in the upscaled version:scratch:?

Gazjam

01-10-2010, 10:26

What are the benefits up upscaling? Is there any additional information in an audio file that cannot be decoded by the DAC in the original playback, but would be decoded in the upscaled version:scratch:?

Good question Stan, I wonder if the benefits of some things though aren't always measurable?
I know how it looks on paper...

Maybe its just a subjective thing?

From what I can gather though (and its maybe a case of a little knowledge being a dagerous thing!) is that interpolation of the digital waveform smooths it out and brings it closer to the analogue one?
Its worth a try...is all I'm saying.
At the end of the day numbers dont matter, other folks opinions dont matter..its all about how it sounds to YOU with your ears.

Would it be interesting enough Topic to set up a Poll on AOS about this?
A lot of us like to improve our Dacs, roll opamps etc, so we're all looking to improve our hardware.
What if we could improve the SOFTware too...?
Would this be a valid contribution to the "big picture" of what makes our stereo's sound good?

Maybe its bollocks, I can accept that :), but maybe like other potential work/dont work tweaks, its worth at least trying?

What about even proposing an experiment: :)
...the same tracks, one in 16/44 the other upsampled to 24/96.
perhaps 2 or 3 tracks, different genres I dunno....just some well recorded tracks.
We download the tracks, test them in our own system and report back our findings.

Get some opinions from the AOS guys?

Of course, the only thing that matters is how it works in the real world, in practical terms...I mean the numbers dont make up what makes the music.
I'd much rather be listening to the music and not watching waveforms..:)

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 10:32

I cetainly find the well recorded 24/96 stuff I have betters red book.

Clive

01-10-2010, 10:34

I find upscaling sounds unnatural, especially when it's to 192. Multiples of 44.1 seems so much more logical and sounds better. 88.2 or 176.4 please.....why do extra mathematical estimating for 192.

StanleyB

01-10-2010, 10:52

I certainly find the well recorded 24/96 stuff I have betters red book.
That's a different ball game though.
Based on my own experiments, an upscaled 44.1KHz version of the album "Hotel California" sounded worse then the original 44.1KHz version.
But the official 24/96KHz release sounded better than the 16/44.1KHz and 16/96KHz upscaled version.

Please note that upscalng appears to affect only the frequency, not the bit depth according to my findings. If anyone else got the bits to also upscale from 16 to 24, I'll be interested to know what the equipment was that you used.

Gazjam

01-10-2010, 11:01

That's a different ball game though.
Based on my own experiments, an upscaled 44.1KHz version of the album "Hotel California" sounded worse then the original 44.1KHz version.
But the official 24/96KHz release sounded better than the 16/44.1KHz and 16/96KHz upscaled version.

Please note that upscalng appears to affect only the frequency, not the bit depth according to my findings. If anyone else got the bits to also upscale from 16 to 24, I'll be interested to know what the equipment was that you used.

Foobar lets you up the bitrate to 24bit.

..at least the setting SAYS you can.
cant you?

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 11:17

That's a different ball game though.
Based on my own experiments, an upscaled 44.1KHz version of the album "Hotel California" sounded worse then the original 44.1KHz version.
But the official 24/96KHz release sounded better than the 16/44.1KHz and 16/96KHz upscaled version.

Please note that upscalng appears to affect only the frequency, not the bit depth according to my findings. If anyone else got the bits to also upscale from 16 to 24, I'll be interested to know what the equipment was that you used.
Yes indeed Stan.I haven't yet heard an upsampling dac,but most of what I have read concurs with your findings

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 11:20

Agree about the Hotel California 24/96 also.I have it,and it's definately superior to the red book IMO.

MartinT

01-10-2010, 12:06

Gazjam

01-10-2010, 12:12

The only benefit to upscaling is that it pushes the brickwall filtering further up the frequency spectrum and reduces high frequency hash close to the theoretical 22.05kHz maximum. As Stan says, it cannot add information that was not there in the first place.

Thanks for that Martin,
If it moves the digital hash towards being outwith the range of hearing...its a good thing I guess...
maybe akin to making the best of the 16/44 information you already have then?
Can you hear it though? :)

Stratmangler

01-10-2010, 12:45

Agree about the Hotel California 24/96 also.I have it,and it's definately superior to the red book IMO.

The files are actually 24/192.
The red book CD is very poor in comparison.

RoboCopper

01-10-2010, 12:49

You are highly unlikely to get any difference in audible bass level from changing a 1uf cap to 1.6uf ;) All you'll be doing is shifting the -3Db frequency lower & it'll already be sub 10Hz.

As I am new to the world of DIY HiFi electronics I wonder what would be a difference in bass or overall sound quality when compared 1uF cap with 47uF capacitor?

I want to compare it higher values as the sound difference from 1uF and 1.6uF is minor (from this post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=153265&postcount=692)

I know I can insert the caps and hear it for myself, but want to know about theory too.
Thanks

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 13:23

The files are actually 24/192.
The red book CD is very poor in comparison.

Ah yes,had forgotten Chris.The Touch won't play192 though.

Stratmangler

01-10-2010, 13:54

Ah yes,had forgotten Chris.The Touch won't play192 though.

That's because you're running it from the tinySC (internal server).
If you're running it from a computer or intelligent NAS you should be able to get the serving machine to downsample on the fly.

Actually, the NAS thing may not necessarily work.
It all depends on how you are serving the music files, and whether the device carrying the server client is up to the job in hand - downsampling is quite processor intensive

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 14:05

Just got the Guruplug,finally! Will be fiddling this weekend to see if I can get it running. Don't have a clue about linux though,so should be fun!

gr0001

01-10-2010, 14:42

I am using a Behringer SRC 2496 for upsampling the signal to 24/96 before sending it to my Caiman. The differences I heard with upsampling were greater separation between instruments, greater depth and a more focused image. In some recordings the differences are much more obvious than others. I would say that it is worth trying. I also did upsampling via foobar but the results were worse than the original 16/44 track...

I also have a question regarding the passive mod. If I remove the opamp board and put the capacitors in, does this make both variable and fixed output passive or just only the variable one??

Thanks!

Gazjam

01-10-2010, 15:05

Stratmangler

01-10-2010, 15:14

Just got the Guruplug,finally! Will be fiddling this weekend to see if I can get it running. Don't have a clue about linux though,so should be fun!

I wish you the very best of luck - you might need it.
OTOH if you're following a step by step instal guide from the Slim forum then it might just work.

I'm keeping my fingers and all idle apendages crossed for you mate.:eyebrows:

Reid Malenfant

01-10-2010, 15:28

As I am new to the world of DIY HiFi electronics I wonder what would be a difference in bass or overall sound quality when compared 1uF cap with 47uF capacitor?

I want to compare it higher values as the sound difference from 1uF and 1.6uF is minor (from this post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=153265&postcount=692)

I know I can insert the caps and hear it for myself, but want to know about theory too.
Thanks
Ok, let me first refer you to this post i made here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=153296&postcount=704) :)

Depending on the input impedance of the amplifier you are driving with the passive mod output will determine the -3Db frequency that the bass response of the DAC/Amp combination rolls off. This is due to what is known as capacitive reactance.

This can be calculated with the following formula:-

Xc = 1/2 x pi x f x C in plain english that's Xc (the reactance) = 1 divided by 2 x pi (3.1415926545) x f (frequency) x C (capacitance).

The reactance would be it's resistance at the frequency (f).

You can also calculate the given capacitor you'd need to have a certain reactance at frequency (f) of your choice:-

C = 1/2 x pi x f x Xc

Now all these capacitors on a 50Kohm input impedance will have a turnover frequency (-3Db frequency) of well below 20Hz, so in theory you'd hardly expect them to make much difference. But capacitors & the combined input impedance of the following amp create this low pass filter & it's not just the signal getting attenuated below the cutoff. Way before it gets to -3Db the phase of the waveform (if it's pretty close to the cutoff point) will start to shift in phase with regards to other higher frequencies. If i remember correctly this become noticeable a whole decade above the cutoff point (10 x the cutoff frequency).

Assuming you have a -3Db point of say 5Hz it means that the musical signal will start shifting in phase at 50Hz & it'll be gradually be going more out of phase the lower the reproduced frequency is.

It might not be much of a big deal with a single stage, but in an audio chain there are quite a few stages. If each adds it's own phase shift then things can soon add up & bass can sound rather disjointed because it's well out of phase with the stuff being produced in the midrange which isn't subjected to anywhere near as much phase shifting.

I'm sure there is loads more that could be said, right now it's eluding me though :eyebrows:

Hope this helps a tad :)

Clive

01-10-2010, 15:33

It's explained here: http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php

Ali Tait

01-10-2010, 15:42

I wish you the very best of luck - you might need it.
OTOH if you're following a step by step instal guide from the Slim forum then it might just work.

I'm keeping my fingers and all idle apendages crossed for you mate.:eyebrows:

Ha! cheers mate.Yes I have the wiki downloaded.Some of it might as well be in Swahili though! Still,nothing ventured,nothing gained...

I can always ask Nick to sort out the mess afterwards. :lol:

Anyone live near me with linux knowledge?

Reid Malenfant

01-10-2010, 15:45

It's explained here: http://www.v-cap.com/coupling-capacitor-calculator.php
That's handy, however i'd hardly call it an explanation ;)

Clive

01-10-2010, 15:49

That's handy, however i'd hardly call it an explanation ;)
I think it's the best way to get to understand the issue, reading the text and playing with the calculators is illuminating. I think it helps understanding for those of us with little technical knowledge (but at least a little too)....at least for those who learn by doing, rather than reading a long technical paper with equations.

Reid Malenfant

01-10-2010, 16:03

I know I can insert the caps and hear it for myself, but want to know about theory too.
Thanks

I think it's the best way to get to understand the issue, reading the text and playing with the calculators is illuminating. I think it helps understanding for those of us with little technical knowledge (but at least a little too)....at least for those who learn by doing, rather than reading a long technical paper with equations.
Ok & yes :) Please note that it was mentioned by RoboCopper that he wanted to know about the "theory". This is why i put up those rather simple equations, not to make things difficult, but to show the theory rather than just the results.

Yes the calculator is a very useful tool indeed, but it doesn't show the equations, it does it all for you. Thus no theory...

Anyway, back to the topic in question :)

Clive

01-10-2010, 16:07

Ok & yes :) Please note that it was mentioned by RoboCopper that he wanted to know about the "theory". This is why i put up those rather simple equations, not to make things difficult, but to show the theory rather than just the results.

Yes the calculator is a very useful tool indeed, but it doesn't show the equations, it does it all for you. Thus no theory...

Anyway, back to the topic in question :)

To some people theory is equations, to others it's the conceptual theory. Some people will want equations and some won't so a combination of the v-cap page and your post covers it all!