View Full Version : Grounding boxes - The real deal
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 10:19
For all you nay sayers out there all I can say is go and listen to what one can do.
Tony of Coherent Systems graciously responded to my desire to 'hear' one, so I paid him a visit.
They work. Period.
The transformation was astounding, more of everything positive, nothing negative.
More later.
Hi Alan
interesting , which brand/s did you listen to?
Does this mean a Firebottle prototype grounding box on the way? :)
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 12:30
It was the Coherent Systems grounding box, a lot of time (and money) has gone into its development.
Materials are key, needless to say Tony isn't spilling the beans.
The important thing is to have a balanced system, that means equally good pieces of kit without a bottleneck in the system. This of course rather helps to make the system perform well before anything is added to it.
The whole object of a 'grounding' box is to remove all the low level noise and interference that will be present in any piece of kit, no matter how well designed or expensive. The ground referred to is the 'common' connection or 'zero' volts or 'signal' ground.
They really should be called crap collectors.
More later.
Wakefield Turntables
22-01-2019, 12:38
Firebox?
Firebottle Crap Collector! :D
Bigman80
22-01-2019, 12:40
Firebox?Oh, I like that lol
For all you nay sayers out there all I can say is go and listen to what one can do.
Tony of Coherent Systems graciously responded to my desire to 'hear' one, so I paid him a visit.
They work. Period.
The transformation was astounding, more of everything positive, nothing negative.
More later.
What were the details of the comparison? Was it blind and level matched? (I'll settle for level matched).
sq225917
22-01-2019, 12:56
Maybe there's some new form of unknown science at work here. Maybe not
I feel the ASA will have a field day with this little lot from Tony "The RTZ is extremely effective with mains earth noise due to a zero impedance increase, zero impact on electrical design and workings of the equipment as well as the great reduction in HF noise from all of the signal grounds attached."
That's my emphasis. One would hope you have the measurements to back up that claim.
Wakefield Turntables
22-01-2019, 14:47
I've book marked this thread :popcorn: I would assume that Tony would need to provide evidence of his design philosophy and construction in defence of his claims if the ASA got involved. Could be interesting :scratch:.
The ASA is a self regulatory organisation i.e it is run by the advertisers in the same way as the Press Complaints Commission is run by the newspapers. It has no statutory powers.
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 16:03
To answer Martin first, the kit was as follows:
Nova x50d streamer, Tad d1000 dac, Coherent Systems Pre-amp, Coherent Systems digital (switching) power amp.
Most of the music listened to was Red Book (44.1/16 bit) quality on the Nova.
When assessing the grounding box influence the volume setting was untouched. The demonstrated improvements were done in 3 steps. The ONLY thing that was altered was the number of cables from the grounding box connected to the pre-amp and dac. No connections were made to the streamer or power amp.
Step 1. Connect one cable to the pre-amp, an unused input, left channel - totally irrelevant.
Step 2. Connect one more cable to the pre-amp, an unused input, right channel.
Step 3. Connect the other 8 cables to other inputs/tape loop (unused) and a spare SPDIF input on the dac. I don't know the exact connections for all 8.
On each step the improvement was NOT subtle. If I had been blindfolded that wouldn't have made a scrap of difference, in fact I could have been standing outside the room in the hallway and still noticed the difference.
Now to Simon.
There is no 'unknown' science here, it is just reducing the electrical pollutants that mask the soundstage that is already there in the music.
No changes were made to the file, delivery method or volume level.
The difficulty that anyone has, myself included, is how can this work when all one is doing is adding a passive device into a system. The problem also is that you don't hear the 'pollutants', you just hear the depth in the music that was already there once the masking effect is removed.
The ASA would have nothing to investigate, the actual levels of 'pollutants' are completely irrelevant. The perceived difference is all you need to hear.
The 'HF noise' is nothing to do with audible noise, it is all the internal and external radio frequency pollutants that cover an extremely wide bandwidth.
I'm struggling with a couple of things here.
presumably the system sounded acceptable before any connections were made?
Then 1 connection is made and the improvement is so great that blind testing it would be nonsense.
Then a second connection is made and again the improvement is not subtle
Then a third....
I mean there is a limit to how much sound quality can be improved (in theory up to the limits of the quality of the recording). To have three 'not subtle' jumps up in quality seems unlikely - unless the starting system was badly flawed. Was it badly flawed?
jandl100
22-01-2019, 16:35
There is always room for improvement.
I'm also struggling Macca, a while ago a technical measurement showed a large increase in noise, and these previous posts are saying that the noise is reduced.
I'm also struggling Macca, a while ago a technical measurement showed a large increase in noise, and these previous posts are saying that the noise is reduced.
That measurement was of the Entreq grounding box, Alan is talking about the RTZ grounding box, they are different products so not necessarily identical in construction or operation.
walpurgis
22-01-2019, 17:00
I managed to remove all noise from my system. I turned it off! ;)
sq225917
22-01-2019, 17:33
Alan
Could your wife hear it in the back of the van as well?
I fear this thread is going to cost me a lot of money if what Alan says is true. :)
sq225917
22-01-2019, 17:37
Tony makes a claim for 'unspecified reduction' in noise in his web copy. He'll have to back that up with numbers and methodology or withdraw it if the ASA chose to investigate. That's how these things work.
I fear this thread is going to cost me a lot of money if what Alan says is true. :)
I don't think for a second he is making it up, on the other hand with products like this a lot of diligence is required. Someone elses' sighted listening experience , regardless of who it is, really isn't enough to hang a hat on as far as I'm concerned. Interesting that the effect was magnified by attaching more cables, this does fit in with the theory postulated regarding the Entreq box, and the measurements, that show an increase in noise the more length of cable is attached.
I've seen it theorised that the increased soundstage of a recording on vinyl over its digital counterpart is due to the relatively poor SNR of vinyl. We can't assume that technically better automatically means sounds better since psycho-acoustics does not always work that way. So in theory increasing noise may have the subjective effect of increasing soundstage and that could be what is occurring here.
I wonder if the same effect could be had by simply attaching long, unscreened cables to all unused inputs? They would not need to be attached to anything at the other end to act as aerials.
Agreed Martin. For all the reasons already mentioned I'm highly sceptical of this tech, the issue here now is that Alan is someone I value to be super objective and indeed sceptical but seems to be convinced. But I ain't gonna drop £800 (the cheapest option that Tony has) just yet. Would much prefer to have a demo unit first before forking out (or not) hard earned cash.
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 18:11
I'm struggling with a couple of things here.
presumably the system sounded acceptable before any connections were made?
Then 1 connection is made and the improvement is so great that blind testing it would be nonsense.
Then a second connection is made and again the improvement is not subtle
Then a third....
I mean there is a limit to how much sound quality can be improved (in theory up to the limits of the quality of the recording). To have three 'not subtle' jumps up in quality seems unlikely - unless the starting system was badly flawed. Was it badly flawed?
If I was in your position I would be asking the very same questions. There were no flaws. Let me try to put some description to it, though very simplified to show differences in scale.
The system sounded very good to start with, as you might expect with the equipment used. Lets say the image was between and behind the speakers.
Step 1 gave a 50% increase in image width and depth.
Step 2 gave another 50% increase in image width and depth. Plus I was thinking 'where has all that bass come from?' It was there in the first place but now sounds that much more tangible. I was told this is a common reaction.
Step 3 and you are suddenly in the Albert Hall. It's not that the players have suddenly moved it is just that the ambience is there.
This is simplified, the snap, the attack and decay, the sheer fluidity of the performance just jumps out at you.
Once heard it is difficult to believe that it all comes from Red Book.
Agreed Martin. For all the reasons already mentioned I'm highly skeptical of this tech, the issue here now is that Alan is someone I value to be super objective and indeed skeptical but seems to be convinced. But I ain't gonna drop £800 (the cheapest option that Tony has) just yet. Would much prefer to have a demo unit first before forking out (or not) hard earned cash.
Likewise I would be happy to trial it as intrigues me. But the cheapest one is £800. I have to pay for my new Tannoys yet which is consuming most of this year's hi-fi budget. So even if I did decide that it does what it claims I wouldn't be forking out for it this year. So wouldn't want to tie up demo stock, doesn't seem fair.
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 18:19
That measurement was of the Entreq grounding box, Alan is talking about the RTZ grounding box, they are different products so not necessarily identical in construction or operation.
The 'measurement' involved with Entreq box is a complete red herring. The only things involved were an analyser, a cable and the box. Having no audio system involved cannot be correlated to any effect on an audio system.
To my mind all that test showed was that the Entreq box was something that would absorb wideband noise. Substitute 'pick-up' for absorb if you wish.
That noise was coming from somewhere, perhaps the analyser?
Firebottle
22-01-2019, 18:26
I wonder if the same effect could be had by simply attaching long, unscreened cables to all unused inputs? They would not need to be attached to anything at the other end to act as aerials.
I believe you need the box to act as the waste bin for the pollutants. How does it work? I don't know, I wish I did.
Edward, I am convinced because I heard it. As I said in the OP use your own ears.
I agree the problem is the cost, you would need to hear what it does in your system before even contemplating purchase.
Recently I (and Adam of this parish) have been playing around with in-room response measurements. It would be interesting to see what differences (if any) such a grounding box would make - perhaps only measuring the speaker output and not the full in-room response.
I believe you need the box to act as the waste bin for the pollutants. How does it work? I don't know, I wish I did.
Edward, I am convinced because I heard it. As I said in the OP use your own ears.
I agree the problem is the cost, you would need to hear what it does in your system before even contemplating purchase.
Just to clarify Alan, I do believe you. It is because of this I'm paying close attention now. :cool:
Recently I (and Adam of this parish) have been playing around with in-room response measurements. It would be interesting to see what differences (if any) such a grounding box would make - perhaps only measuring the speaker output and not the full in-room response.
Not so easy to measure soundstage. But it would be interesting to see if the FR changed, the problem is that if it doesn't, it still doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
For me I like to know how things work before I buy them. That way I know I couldn't get the same thing any cheaper.
The 'measurement' involved with Entreq box is a complete red herring. The only things involved were an analyser, a cable and the box. Having no audio system involved cannot be correlated to any effect on an audio system.
To my mind all that test showed was that the Entreq box was something that would absorb wideband noise. Substitute 'pick-up' for absorb if you wish.
That noise was coming from somewhere, perhaps the analyser?
To be fair the analyser base noise floor was tested so the above is unlikely but I agree the results would have had more weight if an audio system where involved.
If Tony wants a real challenge he is welcome to bring his ‘grounding solution’ ( I hope that is the proper term?) to my system. If it works as suggested I am more than happy to sing it’s praises and also add it to my system. Please PM if interested Tony?
Wakefield Turntables
22-01-2019, 20:23
If Tony wants a real challenge he is welcome to bring his ‘grounding solution’ ( I hope that is the proper term?) to my system. If it works as suggested I am more than happy to sing it’s praises and also add it to my system. Please PM if interested Tony?
Yep I'll second that. I've two completely different systems. Could be interesting.
Have I got this right? There are different devices working in different ways. They are all described grounding solutions. At least one improves the sound of your system by adding ‘noise’ and at least one improves your system by removing ‘noise’.
Have I got this right? There are different devices working in different ways. They are all described grounding solutions. At least one improves the sound of your system by adding ‘noise’ and at least one improves your system by removing ‘noise’.
No. There's at least two devices, no-one who knows is letting on about how they work. But both claim to reduce noise. One was measured and found to pick up noise if a long enough cable was used.
Some have cast doubts on this measurement.
A few people have heard them/own them and testify they do work, but no-one has tested them blind. No-one on here who has heard one says it does not work, but trailing about the internet it is possible to find owners and previous owners (of the Entreq) who ultimately concluded they did nothing.
That's the story so far.
Bigman80
22-01-2019, 22:01
I've done A LOT of digging on this subject tonight. Alan is someone who's integrity has to be respected in my opinion. So I've decided to put a DIY dumpbox together.
I have found information on this to be quite scarce but what is out there all points to the same types of materials.
I'm not saying it'll work, I'm not saying it won't. I don't know how it can so I have invested a total of £10. Yep, £10 is what it cost to get the bits for a small dumpbox full minerals etc.
It's all coming from China, so it'll be a few weeks.
I wonder if you have to empty the box every so often. (No I'm not being serious....or I don't think I am)
Bigman80
23-01-2019, 00:19
I wonder you have to empty the box every so often. (No I'm not being serious....or I don't think I am)[emoji1787]
Some recommend shaking the box every now and then.
Can I get my name on the list to to try the first BigBox!?:)
No. There's at least two devices, no-one who knows is letting on about how they work. But both claim to reduce noise. One was measured and found to pick up noise if a long enough cable was used.
Some have cast doubts on this measurement.
A few people have heard them/own them and testify they do work, but no-one has tested them blind. No-one on here who has heard one says it does not work, but trailing about the internet it is possible to find owners and previous owners (of the Entreq) who ultimately concluded they did nothing.
That's the story so far.
I think my confusion comes from conjecture early on in the other thread ‘What constitutes a grounding box’ where there was talk of added noise, RFI or whatever possibly improving the sound. I don’t think the manafacturer claimed the device added noise but there was talk of more boxes and longer wires adding distortion that some felt was where the improvement came from. You where posting there Macca.
Bigman80
23-01-2019, 07:29
Can I get my name on the list to to try the first BigBox!?:)[emoji23][emoji23] bigbox !! I love it.
If I think it makes any difference, you're welcome to have a loan, as is anyone. Just for the sake of curiosity!!
Bigman80
23-01-2019, 08:48
Spend is up to £15 after a little discovery earlier.
walpurgis
23-01-2019, 08:54
Don't forget to put a lid on it or the cat may think it's a litter tray. :)
Bigman80
23-01-2019, 09:19
Don't forget to put a lid on it or the cat may think it's a litter tray. :)Yep,, that's what it might end up being lol
Spend is up to £15 after a little discovery earlier.
Oops. An extortionate 50% increase in cost! This hifi hobby can certainly be expensive.
Bigman80
23-01-2019, 09:28
Oops. An extortionate 50% increase in cost! This hifi hobby can certainly be expensive.Yes, a total farce start to finish [emoji38]
Snoopdog
23-01-2019, 16:36
If Tony wants a real challenge he is welcome to bring his ‘grounding solution’ ( I hope that is the proper term?) to my system. If it works as suggested I am more than happy to sing it’s praises and also add it to my system. Please PM if interested Tony?
I'm sure Tony will smile when/if he reads your invitation.
What possible incentive is there for him to travel to Yorkshire (with associated expense in time and fuel), when the benefits of his RTZ products can be readily demonstrated at Coherent Systems HQ?
For the record, I made the trip to Buckinghamshire three weeks ago and listened as Tony added his grounding cables to different inputs/outputs on his system and the improvement is not subtle as already described on this thread!
I know of one other satisfied customer in Chobham who has proceeded to purchase Tony's top RTZ system and Tony's present problem seems to be satisfying demand for his products!
Yes, they are expensive and not everyone can justify the expense, but if you have a system you are currently enjoying, then, believe me, prepare for that enjoyment level to be increased when the RTZ is added!
I have spent the last week or so with a loan Entreq Silver Tellus and four Entreq Apollo Eartha cables attached to my preamp, Transport and DAC and these boxes/cables do enhance the listening experience in all the areas described by the various manufacturers (lower system noise level, increase in dynamics, greater bass depth, soundstage improvement with more "space" around individual instruments/performers).
The effects are both cumulative (with the addition of more cables to unused RCA/XLR/BNC/USB etc inputs and outputs) and expensive!
My main gripe about Entreq products are their physical dimensions and weight! The Silver Tellus box weighs 22kg and is the size of an amplifier!
Tony's RTZ products are much more compact and the heaviest reference box, the RTZ3 is under 15kg in weight.
I shall be pursuing the Coherent Systems RTZ option further!
Tony makes a claim for 'unspecified reduction' in noise in his web copy. He'll have to back that up with numbers and methodology or withdraw it if the ASA chose to investigate. That's how these things work.
Give the guy a break. It's like you want him to get into trouble. If the ASA is anything like most of these quango type bodies they're clueless.
If Tony wants a real challenge he is welcome to bring his ‘grounding solution’ ( I hope that is the proper term?) to my system. If it works as suggested I am more than happy to sing it’s praises and also add it to my system. Please PM if interested Tony?
You're too kind.
MikeMusic
23-01-2019, 17:30
The only bad thing about the RTZ are these crap photos taken by this punter
https://i.imgur.com/74XHprN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Wza1zQY.jpg
Snoopdog
23-01-2019, 18:12
The only bad thing about the RTZ are these crap photos taken by this punter
https://i.imgur.com/74XHprN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Wza1zQY.jpg
And the silver front plate Mike! :)
sq225917
23-01-2019, 18:39
So it has no mains connection, so strictly it's not earthing anything.
Might be if the returns of the rcas are connected to earth. If you then did that connection again it might produce a loop. If returns aren't and box was then you might and something to a unit it isn't meant to have.
Not that I'm at all convinced but am open to it happening, I guess it's maybe like taking star earthing a bit into outer space.
sq225917
23-01-2019, 19:15
It's just adding extra lengths of ground wire to act as aerials or maybe it is sucking noise out of the system grounds and burying it like a cat poop in kitty litter!
Firebottle
23-01-2019, 20:26
..... maybe it is sucking noise out of the system grounds and burying it like a cat poop in kitty litter!
Exactly, you've got it. Fook knows how it does it though.
Exactly, you've got it. Fook knows how it does it though.
We don't know that is what it is doing. It's a very big conclusion to jump to.
Exactly, you've got it. Fook knows how it does it though.
But Alan as a professional EE can you hazard a guess how it works? When you visited Tony did he give any clues what the tech is?
walpurgis
23-01-2019, 21:01
What would happen if one grounding box maker took another to court for pinching his idea?
Firebottle
23-01-2019, 21:57
But Alan as a professional EE can you hazard a guess how it works? When you visited Tony did he give any clues what the tech is?
The tech is about cleaning the environment of (mainly) RF.
Anyone that has worked in RF design or compliance in EMC will know how pervasive RF can be, sometimes with unexpected problems.
Shielding and layout are extremely critical, layout being particularly problematical when considering the physical construction of audio system components.
Consider a printed circuit board, good engineering practice dictates a ground plane (look it up) and possible multiple power planes as well. The ideal is to make return paths for signals, supplies, clocks, control signals et al as low an impedance as possible to prevent spread and mixing of all these signals.
The sheer real estate required for all the component parts works against this ideal, giving rise to the fact that items of kit aren't 'perfect' to begin with.
The problem is exacerbated by the colossal bandwidth of pollutants that any piece of kit is subjected to in the modern world. Designing for broadband noise suppression is challenging in that the absorptive path needs to be a consistently broadband low impedance. This can be helped with educated material selection, both conductors and dielectrics.
Think about this : a piece of wire isn't a piece of wire at RF, it is an inductor. That's just the start of the problems, an enclosed (metal) box can act as a resonator so you may get an RF hot spot where you didn't expect it.
RF is such fun.
May then depend on two things then. Do you have a lot of rf etc around at freq, s that matter and is your equipment susceptible to it.
If you answer yes to both it works. If not it doesn't
MikeMusic
24-01-2019, 10:45
And the silver front plate Mike! :)
Quite !
I had to break my 'only black kit allowed in this house' rule.
Shows how good it is
:)
MikeMusic
24-01-2019, 10:47
So it has no mains connection, so strictly it's not farthing anything.
Not earthing, grounding
MikeMusic
24-01-2019, 10:48
Might be if the returns of the rcas are connected to earth. If you then did that connection again it might produce a loop. If returns aren't and box was then you might and something to a unit it isn't meant to have.
Not that I'm at all convinced but am open to it happening, I guess it's maybe like taking star earthing a bit into outer space.
RCAs and other sockets connect to the RTZ.
Live/signal *not* connected
This piece of equipment needs to be evaluated in someones system independent of the dealer.
This piece of equipment needs to be evaluated in someones system independent of the dealer.
Well we do have testimonials here from at least two people who have them in their own systems...
On the other hand lots of people make similar claims of improved sound quality for fancy mains cables, none of which are borne out when the listening is conducted blind.
Also concerns me that, as with mains cables, the claims tend to revolve around 'soundstage'. If you're listening attentively and with concentration (as you tend to do when you've just made a change) that is the main area you tend to feel has improved. When it could just be due to the increased attention you are paying enabling you to hear things that previously passed you by.
With anything as controversial as this (and with no real/credible technical explanation available) blind testing is the only way to verify that there is indeed a real difference.
Well we do have testimonials here from at least two people who have them in their own systems...
On the other hand lots of people make similar claims of improved sound quality for fancy mains cables, none of which are borne out when the listening is conducted blind.
Also concerns me that, as with mains cables, the claims tend to revolve around 'soundstage'. If you're listening attentively and with concentration (as you tend to do when you've just made a change) that is the main area you tend to feel has improved. When it could just be due to the increased attention you are paying enabling you to hear things that previously passed you by.
With anything as controversial as this (and with no real/credible technical explanation available) blind testing is the only way to verify that there is indeed a real difference.
Should have read the post a bit more closely:)
Firebottle
24-01-2019, 18:09
Well we do have testimonials here from at least two people who have them in their own systems...
On the other hand lots of people make similar claims of improved sound quality for fancy mains cables, ...
These claims are no where near similar to the effects of the RTZ box.
You disbeliever :p
Who has unused inputs? I sure don’t.
Russell
So what would happen if you connected all the “grounds” to a common point without a wooden box full of expensive proprietary minerals?
MikeMusic
24-01-2019, 18:58
This piece of equipment needs to be evaluated in someones system independent of the dealer.
I'm independent of the dealer
Costs me real money to buy
sq225917
24-01-2019, 19:40
So what would happen if you connected all the “grounds” to a common point without a wooden box full of expensive proprietary minerals?
Exactly the same thing.
I'd assume tonys isn't full of minerals though.
So he has replaced it with something else, either way I reckon there is a very healthy profit on these devices, which seem to be popular.
AJSki2fly
24-01-2019, 20:20
I have my feet firmly on the ground and not in a box, yet anyway.:lol:
https://www.smileysapp.com/emojis/wacky-smiley.png
MikeMusic
25-01-2019, 14:17
Who has unused inputs? I sure don’t.
Russell
Glad to say I do.
If you don't then you are stuck
MikeMusic
25-01-2019, 14:18
So what would happen if you connected all the “grounds” to a common point without a wooden box full of expensive proprietary minerals?
Not a lot I assume.
MikeMusic
25-01-2019, 14:22
Exactly the same thing.
I'd assume tonys isn't full of minerals though.
Why not try it and make some money.
Tony's material is his secret.
Very heavy
'Why is everything heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational field?'
if it wasn't heavy we might have a paradox;)
On the other hand lots of people make similar claims of improved sound quality for fancy mains cables, none of which are borne out when the listening is conducted blind.
I have no dog in this particular race, but the above simply isn't true, certainly in my position (where with the upstairs/downstairs system thing going on, it's very easy to accurately blind-test anything), or in the position of others I know, who've been equally as thorough with their testing, and subsequently concluded that "fancy mains cables" almost certainly *do* make a difference!;)
Marco.
Glad to say I do.
If you don't then you are stuck
Or subsequently have no 'problem' to fix, by investing in one of these boxes!;)
Happy days:)
Marco.
I have no dog in this particular race, but the above simply isn't true, certainly in my position (where with the upstairs/downstairs system thing going on, it's very easy to accurately blind-test anything), or in the position of others I know, who've been equally as thorough with their testing, and subsequently concluded that "fancy mains cables" almost certainly *do* make a difference!;)
Marco.
I'm taking about documented, controlled blind testing the results of which are in the public domain. Not the sort of ad hoc thing you or I might do just to satisfy ourselves (but nobody else).
In those cases no-one has ever been able to distinguish between mains cables. And yet some people say the improvements they bring are so dramatic that their systems sound 'broken' without them.
So something doesn't add up. The improvements being claimed here remind me very much of that scenario.
I would love to see you pass a blind test with mains cables. Seriously. That would make me a believer even if I never hear the difference myself.
montesquieu
25-01-2019, 15:42
Looking at the various threads including the manufacturer's one I'm none the wiser here.
What exactly is being grounded here? Component earths tied together? Signal earths? (some of which may be tied to component ground, some not). Power earths? Are special cables required? Does that mean existing power or RCA cables need thrown away? And won't the cables used have their own inductance and resitance that needs figuring into the mix?
Can anyone explain precisely what connects to this box, and what method of connection is used? And what's in the box (I guess this may be a source of conjecture) that makes it work?
Anyway I'd appreciate an idiots guide to what we are talking about.
I did once buy some kind of earthing system but it was essentially for component earths, I got it because of hum issues with a preamp, it didn't work and the easiest solution in the end after much faffing was to sell the preamp to someone in whose system it didn't hum. Presumably gross hum like that is not what this box is for.
walpurgis
25-01-2019, 15:49
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the grounding boxes contain Galena.
Looking at the various threads including the manufacturer's one I'm none the wiser here.
What exactly is being grounded here? Component earths tied together? Signal earths? (some of which may be tied to component ground, some not). Power earths? Are special cables required? Does that mean existing power or RCA cables need thrown away? And won't the cables used have their own inductance and resitance that needs figuring into the mix?
Can anyone explain precisely what connects to this box, and what method of connection is used? And what's in the box (I guess this may be a source of conjecture) that makes it work?
Anyway I'd appreciate an idiots guide to what we are talking about.
I did once buy some kind of earthing system but it was essentially for component earths, I got it because of hum issues with a preamp, it didn't work and the easiest solution in the end after much faffing was to sell the preamp to someone in whose system it didn't hum. Presumably gross hum like that is not what this box is for.
I don't think anything is being grounded/earthed. I think that's just marketing to make it sound to the layman like it is all perfectly logical and sensible.
Special cables are not required. You attach normal RCA interconnects to unused inputs on your pre-amp and the other end plugs into the box. Mains and mains cables are not involved at all.
The connecting cables are not passing a signal so their inductance etc is irrelevant.
You're probably still none the wiser, don't worry, neither is anyone. This is very much a suck it and see product.
thinking of making one, and send it out to folk, take orders and clean up:eyebrows:
thinking of making one, and send it out to folk, take orders and clean up:eyebrows:
You're to late, it's already a crowded market place. Check out the Nordost version, starts at $2.5K http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/nordost_qkore.htm
You're to late, it's already a crowded market place. Check out the Nordost version, starts at $2.5K http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/nordost_qkore.htm
ah but mine will be sensibly priced.
I'm taking about documented, controlled blind testing the results of which are in the public domain. Not the sort of ad hoc thing you or I might do just to satisfy ourselves (but nobody else).
Then you should've made that clear....
In those cases no-one has ever been able to distinguish between mains cables.
That doesn't mean *in actuality* there wasn't a real difference. It could simply be that the test undertaken failed to reveal it. We've discussed this subject many times before... I don't consider the results of such blind testing, when applied to audio, to be conclusive, unlike it often is when applied to other areas, such as cosmetics.
Audio is more complex, so the results of blind testing for differences in mains cables, apparently 'proving' that no differences exist, in my view, merely provides evidence that supports the placebo argument - not anything conclusive one way or the other.
Of course, that doesn't stop those who are predisposed to pooh-poohing such things *wanting* to believe that the results are conclusive, simply to pacify their sensibilities!;)
I would love to see you pass a blind test with mains cables. Seriously. That would make me a believer even if I never hear the difference myself.
I've already passed such a blind test, many times, and I care not two hoots whether that classes as 'official' or not. You know my set-up. I have a system upstairs, the contents of which you're familiar with, and two sets of speaker cables: one which I use to connect the Tannoys, and one I've fed downstairs to the Celestions.
Therefore, in order to listen to the sound of my system upstairs, whilst I'm downstairs in the lounge, it's simply a case of swapping speaker cables over on the Copper amp. So.... in order to blind test cables, all I do is plug the Celestions in, and get Del (or a friend) to swap cables upstairs on any relevant component, whilst I'm listening to the effect downstairs on the Celestions, completely oblivious as to which cables are being used....
That way, there is ZERO sighted bias, and I've no idea whether I'm listening to a bog-standard kettle lead or "fancy mains cable". And time after time I've successfully identified the "fancy mains cable", simply because, unprompted (and blind because I'm sitting in a different room when the changes are being made), I can clearly hear the difference!!:exactly:
Marco.
hifi_dave
25-01-2019, 16:13
So it's like multiroom for the cognoscenti..:)
think the idea is to have a large variable mass that collects and traps any stray emf etc in your system. black tourmaline and shungite are the best at this.
Then you should've made that clear....
That doesn't mean that *in actuality* there wasn't. We've discussed this subject many times before... I don't consider the results of such blind testing, when applied to audio, to be in any way conclusive, unlike it is when applied in other areas, such as cosmetics.
Audio is more complex, so the results of blind testing for differences in mains cables, apparently 'proving' that no differences exist, in my view, merely provides evidence that supports the placebo argument - not anything conclusive one way or the other.
.
I'm not suggesting that the results would be conclusive. The idea is to remove sighted bias (which is very real) and then see how easy it is to identify differences then. For a product like this I would consider blind listening essential, even if only to prove to myself that I was not mistaken in thinking it improved the sound.
The complexity of audio (although it isn't actually that complex) has nothing to do with it btw. The idea is to eliminate the imagination from the equation. Imagination is a factor in our appreciation of anything, wine, food, doesn't matter.
It doesn't make conclusions 100% sure but it does move them closer to that ideal.
Put it this way - even if I had one of these boxes, hooked it up and heard exactly what Alan heard, I would still not be confident that it was not my imagination until I'd passed a blind test with it.
sq225917
25-01-2019, 16:30
Tom, basically these boxes connect up the signal grounds of unused input/outputs via long cable runs and in doing so some people believe they achieve an improvement in the sound even though there's never been a single shred of evidence to show any lowering or any type of noise floor. To the contrary these devices (Entreq, not Tony's RTZ) have been shown to increase measurable RFI when connected to an audi0-precision unit directly. (not exactly how they are meant to be used)
Of course there's some sort of magic material in the box that soaks up/filters rfi even though its not connected to anything, it's just a black hole for RFI that magically filters out noise not signal.
I wonder how many of the people who've heard an improvement have relay switched ins/outs and or correctly terminated balanced connections with truly compliant chassis to earth bonding.
The idea is to remove sighted bias (which is very real) and then see how easy it is to identify differences then.
Precisely, and I presume you'd agree that's exactly what I achieved in the example I provided? Being in a different room, when changes are being made, is the same as wearing a blindfold.
Next time you're over, I'll subject you to the same test, with mains cables, and we'll see what happens!;)
The complexity of audio (although it isn't actually that complex) has nothing to do with it btw. The idea is to eliminate the imagination from the equation. Imagination is a factor in our appreciation of anything, wine, food, doesn't matter.
Yes I agree, and of course you can't imagine something you can't see, which was the case in the example I gave. As for the complexity of audio argument, we'll keep that for another day, but suffice to say that in my opinion ABX testing, for audio purposes, is deeply flawed.
Put it this way - even if I had one of these boxes, hooked it up and heard exactly what Alan heard, I would still not be confident that it was not my imagination until I'd passed a blind test with it.
What about if you were sat in my lounge, in front of the Celestions, which were connected to the system upstairs, and I was upstairs, taking the box in and out of said system, without you knowing which was which, and you (repeatedly) correctly identified when the box was in use - would you believe then what you heard was real?
Marco.
So it's like multiroom for the cognoscenti..:)
Indeed, lol. Trust me, it works very well!:cool:
Marco.
What about if you were sat in my lounge, in front of the Celestions, which were connected to the system upstairs, and I was upstairs, taking the box in and out of said system, without you knowing which was which, and you (repeatedly) correctly identified when the box was in use - would you believe then what you heard was real?
Marco.
Yes I would. That's the only situation in which I'd be happy to accept that a product such as this was doing something tangible.
Note that would only satisfy me and not the world at large. Some people would be satisfied with a sighted listen. I believe that is unwise.
Yes I would. That's the only situation in which I'd be happy to accept that a product such as this was doing something tangible.
And me. I now do so as a matter of course, when evaluating such items, and indeed was one of the reasons why I installed a secondary system in the lounge:)
What "the world at large" thinks, I have little interest in; I only care about my ears and personal satisfaction!
Marco.
Not a lot I assume.
Have you tried it? What difference does a box with binding posts make?
57charles
25-01-2019, 19:25
I have no dog in this particular race, but the above simply isn't true, certainly in my position (where with the upstairs/downstairs system thing going on, it's very easy to accurately blind-test anything), or in the position of others I know, who've been equally as thorough with their testing, and subsequently concluded that "fancy mains cables" almost certainly *do* make a difference!;)
Marco.
Total complete and utter lunacy - just like so called 'grounding boxes'. Give it a rest FFS.
Pardon? What exactly, in your humble opinion, is "complete and utter lunacy"? And I'll give no such thing a "rest FFS". I'm expressing a valid opinion, based on my experience.
Who do you think you're talking to? We don't address each other like that here. Kindly show some manners, and apologise, or you'll be banned with immediate effect.
Marco.
57charles
25-01-2019, 19:58
I apologise if I've come across as a tad terse - no insult intended - I do feel strongly about people attempting to listen to kettle leads and wooden boxes with shill inside them. Notwithstanding this, I will, in future, take into account other forum members own views and personal experiences and will not rubbish them. Once again, many apologies if my posting has caused offence and consternation.
Firebottle
25-01-2019, 20:18
Charles as I said at the beginning of this (now rather long) thread, just use your own ears.
:cool:
Bigman80
25-01-2019, 20:21
Total complete and utter lunacy - just like so called 'grounding boxes'. Give it a rest FFS.[emoji1787][emoji1787]
F@ck me, Charles. I am laughing my arse off. I'm not sure how that could read any other way.
Kind of like pulling a grenades pin out in your own pocket then fumbling to get it out [emoji1787][emoji1787]
Berni217
25-01-2019, 20:22
Marco,
I think that your comments are a bit tough on Charles...
If you go through this tread and others related to grounding box, you will see lots of jokes and laughters from some against others who are sharing their experiences ...
I don’t think it’s the way one should address another ... however, I have not seen any moderator comments about these!
We surely do not want this forum to become a gang of some against the others. Do we?
Just my view...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bigman80
25-01-2019, 20:24
Hi Marco, about those mains cables:
https://goo.gl/images/Qr1DzW
I apologise if I've come across as a tad terse - no insult intended - I do feel strongly about people attempting to listen to kettle leads and wooden boxes with shill inside them. Notwithstanding this, I will, in future, take into account other forum members own views and personal experiences and will not rubbish them. Once again, many apologies if my posting has caused offence and consternation.
Ok, that's fine, and I appreciate the apology. In future, please express your point of view without rubbishing that of others, as I'm sorry, that's how what you wrote came across. Also, I'm not very comfortable with your comment about "wooden boxes with shill inside them". That's not acceptable either, unless you have some actual proof to back up such an assertion?
Therefore, in future please stick to discussing the hi-fi aspects of a subject, without casting any such aspersions on manufacturers, or if these types of products aren't for you, ignore threads that involve them. You should bear in mind that this is a subjectivist forum, where ears will always come first before any supposed 'scientific facts'.
Marco.
Hi Bernard,
Marco,
I think that your comments are a bit tough on Charles...
If you go through this tread and others related to grounding box, you will see lots of jokes and laughters from some against others who are sharing their experiences ...
I don’t think it’s the way one should address another ... however, I have not seen any moderator comments about these!
I'm sorry, but I've no idea what you're referring to. Could you link me to it please, so I can take a look and offer my opinion?:)
We surely do not want this forum to become a gang of some against the others. Do we?
Again, I've no idea what you mean, so I'm afraid you'll have to explain yourself a little more clearly. I'm sorry you think my treatment of Charles was a bit tough, but he rightly apologised, as he understood that was out of order, so I stand by what I wrote.
One of the things we will moderate *very strictly* on here is when members start to get personal and don't show others the courtesy and respect that they deserve.
This is a friendly forum, so we insist that members address each other in a friendly/non-aggressive/confrontational manner *at all times*, regardless of whether they think someone is 'talking bollocks' or not - and that's how it will always be!:cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco, about those mains cables:
https://goo.gl/images/Qr1DzW
:lolsign:
Marco.
Berni217
25-01-2019, 21:00
Please read through this tread (from the beginning) ...
Then this one: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?62064-So-what-is-a-grounding-box
Lots of comments are far from being respectful of others' experiences or comments.
Hi Bernard,
I'm sorry, but I've no idea what you're referring to. Could you link me to it please, so I can take a look and offer my opinion?:)
Again, I've no idea what you mean, so I'm afraid you'll have to explain yourself a little more clearly. I'm sorry you think my treatment of Charles was a bit tough, but he rightly apologised, as he understood that was out of order, so I stand by what I wrote.
One of the things we will moderate *very strictly* on here is when members start to get personal and don't show others the courtesy and respect they deserve.
This is a friendly forum, so we insist that members address each other in a friendly/non-aggressive/confrontational manner *at all times*, regardless of whether they think someone is 'talking bollocks' or not - and that's how it will always be!:cool:
Marco.
I see nothing wrong with exposure of wrong arguments, and even a little jest, but direct ad hominem is not to me acceptable.
I've puzzled over my Thevenin and Norton, and superposition theories, and cannot for the life of me see what any of this can do.
Berni217
25-01-2019, 21:04
Wrong URL. I meant this one: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61919-What-constitutes-a-grounding-box
Please read through this tread (from the beginning) ...
Then this one: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?62064-So-what-is-a-grounding-box
Lots of comments are far from being respectful of others' experiences or comments.
I see nothing wrong with exposure of wrong arguments, and even a little jest, but direct ad hominem is not to me acceptable.
Exactly. It's completely unnecessary, easily avoidable and simply won't be tolerated.
Marco.
Wrong URL. I meant this one: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61919-What-constitutes-a-grounding-box
Thanks, but I don't have time to read through 22 pages on a subject that's of little personal interest... And if I haven't read it (as indeed is the case) then that might explain why I missed the claimed unsavoury behaviour!;)
Instead, could you read through it and quote the specific content you're referring to, and I'll comment accordingly? Ta!:)
Marco.
sq225917
25-01-2019, 21:20
Personally I think it's utter hocus pocus, but people are want to do whatever they like and enjoy it, it's just hifi, innit?
Berni217
25-01-2019, 21:30
Don't have time to re-read everything either Marco.
I raised my point. Up to you to decide what to do with it!
Nothing more to add on the topic.
Thanks, but I don't have time to read through 22 pages on a subject that's of little personal interest... And if I haven't read it (as indeed is the case) then that might explain why I missed the claimed unsavoury behaviour!;)
Instead, could you read through it and quote the specific content you're referring to, and I'll comment accordingly? Ta!:)
Marco.
Don't have time to re-read everything either Marco.
I raised my point. Up to you to decide what to do with it!
Nothing more to add on the topic.
No worries. I'll have a look when I get a chance and take the appropriate action:)
Marco.
Hilarious thread.
In what way?
Marco.
Firebottle
25-01-2019, 22:01
I think because it divides opinion.
Or rather attracts opinion based on supposition. :D
In what way?
Marco.
It has everything that is typical hifi fare; an outlandish product (on the face of it), factions for and against, opinions, angry retorts.
If an £800 box of crystals works for you, go for it. It doesn't hurt anyone else. Just as long as prospective buyers can trial this equipment without fear of spunking a lot of money that'll do nothing for them.
Personally I think it's utter hocus pocus, but people are want to do whatever they like and enjoy it, it's just hifi, innit?
Then in future, Simon, keep such thoughts to yourself, as comments like that offer nothing constructive to the discussion, as indeed neither did your remarks here about shit in boxes (on a similar thread), which I guess was the type of thing Bernard was referring to: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?61919-What-constitutes-a-grounding-box&p=1044740#post1044740
...as indeed was your later "FFS" remark, on post #30. That was totally out of order and should've been reported!
I'm afraid that your 'objectivist excesses' are rising to the surface again, which I've noticed for a while and meant to address. Kindly remember that this is, first and foremost, a subjectivist forum, so people will often experiment with stuff that doesn't meet with your 'scientific approval'.
If I see any more behaviour like that, you'll be out for a week without any further warning. I trust I've made myself clear! And that goes for anyone else who thinks they're being similarly 'smart'.
Marco.
great entertainment, probably more so than the grounding boxy thingy itself!:lol:
It has everything that is typical hifi fare; an outlandish product (on the face of it), factions for and against, opinions, angry retorts.
If an £800 box of crystals works for you, go for it. It doesn't hurt anyone else. Just as long as prospective buyers can trial this equipment without fear of spunking a lot of money that'll do nothing for them.
No idea, as the product in question is of no interest to me. Best ask Tony. However, that aside, glad you're enjoying the entertainment, as we aim to please!;)
Marco.
Glad to say I do.
If you don't then you are stuck
Perhaps an insert? Some fitting between the cable and the jack, with the ground wire attached? So it could be applied to a jack that’s in use.
Russell
I have no dog in this particular race, but the above simply isn't true, certainly in my position (where with the upstairs/downstairs system thing going on, it's very easy to accurately blind-test anything), or in the position of others I know, who've been equally as thorough with their testing, and subsequently concluded that "fancy mains cables" almost certainly *do* make a difference!;)
Marco.
A high end power cable compared to a stock power cable can make a noticeable difference. But what about a $500 cable compared to a $1500 cable? Will the difference be so pronounced then? So that anyone could tell them apart? The laws of diminishing returns may come into play?
Russell
The thing that gets me re these cables or other such is claims that you need a high resolving system to notice the improvements.
To me that's a cop out
A high end power cable compared to a stock power cable can make a noticeable difference. But what about a $500 cable compared to a $1500 cable? Will the difference be so pronounced then? So that anyone could tell them apart? The laws of diminishing returns may come into play?
Most definitely, Russell, as the biggest difference will come from initially upgrading from a cheap, mass-produced 'kettle lead', which simply hasn't been designed for hi-fi purposes, to something that has, and which is available from the likes of Belden, for about £40!
This seller supplies the same mains cable, fitted with an IEC plug, but only appears to have fig 8 currently listed: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fig-8-Belden-19364-mains-cable-for-SKY-HD-BLU-RAY-2-5m-Audiophile-High-End-Hifi/263403705322?hash=item3d541593ea:g:IsoAAMXQAF5Rg8P M:rk:3:pf:1&frcectupt=true
And that's as 'fancy' as it needs to get!
I use those cables virtually throughout my downstairs music/AV system, and they're superb. I have the fig 8 version on my Virgin V6 TV box. No need to spend 'silly money'. The important thing is using good quality, high-gauge shielded cable, which combined with quality plugs, is competently assembled, using best electrical practice. There is no 'magic' involved!
Marco.
The thing that gets me re these cables or other such is claims that you need a high resolving system to notice the improvements.
To me that's a cop out
Indeed it is. I can hear the difference (improvement) just as much on my downstairs, circa £3k (excluding TV) music/AV system, as I can on my main rig upstairs costing well in excess of ten times that.
It's not about "high resolving" or cost, but simply having a system that's well-matched [from source to speakers] and properly set up, to allow such differences to shine. If all you've done is thrown together a random selection of boxes and speakers, and taken little or no care in setting it all up, then don't expect to hear differences with mains leads, or many other things for that matter!;)
Marco.
Most definitely, Russell, as the biggest difference will come from initially upgrading from a cheap, mass-produced 'kettle lead', which simply hasn't been designed for hi-fi purposes, to something that has, and which is available from the likes of Belden, for about £40!
This seller supplies the same mains cable, fitted with an IEC plug, but only appears to have fig 8 currently listed: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fig-8-Belden-19364-mains-cable-for-SKY-HD-BLU-RAY-2-5m-Audiophile-High-End-Hifi/263403705322?hash=item3d541593ea:g:IsoAAMXQAF5Rg8P M:rk:3:pf:1&frcectupt=true
And that's as 'fancy' as it needs to get!
I use those cables virtually throughout my downstairs music/AV system, and they're superb. I have the fig 8 version on my Virgin V6 TV box. No need to spend 'silly money'. The important thing is using good quality, high-gauge shielded cable, which combined with quality plugs, is competently assembled, using best electrical practice. There is no 'magic' involved!
Marco.
That’s very much like my experience. I made a power cable for my preamp, I purchased some nicer parts from eBay, and assembled it myself for about $55. When I installed it, (I already have a nicer power cord on the amp), I wasn’t immediately convinced there was a difference. So I left it in for a few days, and when I removed it, I heard the difference. After restoring it I again heard the difference. Was it better? Yes! Was it night and day, make or break? No, it was just noticeable. But that’s how tweaks work, the small improvements add up.
Several months ago, my son in law loaned me a $500 PS Audio power cord. I swapped it into the same place, and can’t say I noticed any difference. After a few days I put the home made one back, and I do believe it sounded better, at least to my ears. But these differences were very slight, I could easily live with either one. And honestly I didn’t hate the sound before I tried the $55 cord, so while I like it, and think it makes a difference, if I had never tried it, I’d be just as happy in the long run.
Russell
Still don’t understand how you can comment on stuff you haven’t heard in your own system. Otherwise it’s just hot air. I might try a grounding box one day, meanwhile I’m enjoying a Chord Sarum T mains cable on the CD player.......
Bigman80
26-01-2019, 10:03
great entertainment, probably more so than the grounding boxy thingy itself![emoji38][emoji23][emoji23]
MikeMusic
26-01-2019, 10:30
Have you tried it? What difference does a box with binding posts make?
Might try that
Do I need witnesses ?
:)
The binding posts allow an extra cable with a spade to be connected to the one grounding box.
What for ?
In case not clear from before the sound quality improves the more cables you have connected.
My ears heard the improvement. My brain struggled to believe what I was hearing
Still don’t understand how you can comment on stuff you haven’t heard in your own system. ...
That's a specious argument. If I told you that putting bananas on top of my speakers gave me an extra octave of bass would you try it before telling me it is nonsense?
That's a specious argument. If I told you that putting bananas on top of my speakers gave me an extra octave of bass would you try it before telling me it is nonsense?
Just popping to the kitchen to grab the bananas. Hold on - do they need to be £800 bananas?
Stratmangler
26-01-2019, 11:09
Just popping to the kitchen to grab the bananas. Hold on - do they need to be £800 bananas?
I don't think it matters.
Just keep the bananas away from the speaker driver surrounds, because the bananas will gas off, and cause the surrounds to rot :)
Firebottle
26-01-2019, 12:31
... will gas off, and cause the surrounds to rot :)
I have that problem, good job I've got 'stats.
That's a specious argument. If I told you that putting bananas on top of my speakers gave me an extra octave of bass would you try it before telling me it is nonsense?
So is yours, as it's taking things to extremes!;)
The use of a grounding box, in theory, has a credible mechanism for creating some sort of real effect. Putting bananas on top of speakers doesn't.
The point is, Robin's right. No piece of hi-fi equipment or accessory, the effect of which is remotely credible, should be automatically dismissed as "foo", especially if you have no experience yourself of using it. And if I see anyone here guilty of that behaviour again, it'll be an instant month's ban for those responsible.
Marco.
So is yours, as it's taking things to extremes!;)
The use of a grounding box, in theory, has a credible mechanism for creating some sort of real effect. Putting bananas on top of speakers doesn't.
The point is, Robin's right. No piece of hi-fi equipment or accessory, the effect of which is remotely credible, should be automatically dismissed as "foo", especially if you have no experience yourself of using it. And if I see anyone here guilty of that behaviour again, it'll be an instant month's ban for those responsible.
Marco.
I was using absurdio ad reductum to illustrate the logical fallacy of the 'If you haven't tried it you can't comment' argument, that's all.
I was using absurdio ad reductum to illustrate the logical fallacy of the 'If you haven't tried it you can't comment' argument, that's all.
That's fine, but it doesn't further or add anything useful to the discussion, nor indeed dismiss the validity of the point Robin made.
Marco.
This is exactly the sort of product where dealers should offer a sale or return. I would be up for that.
Yup, if they've got confidence in the efficacy of their product, a test sample should be offered and distributed among interested forum members, for their subsequent appraisal. If the product is genuinely any good, and offers high SPPV, justifying its price tag, then it'll do well.
Certainly on AoS, the latter is imperative, as we're not a forum largely populated by people with more money than sense!
Marco.
tbh, companies in general dont do test ones. some dealers do but not all by any means. A bit sad as i might have bought things more often if they did.
Snoopdog
26-01-2019, 14:05
This is exactly the sort of product where dealers should offer a sale or return. I would be up for that.
This is exactly the reason why you should establish a relationship with a dealer!
I currently have an Entreq Silver Tellus and Apollo Eartha cables on extended home demonstration!
No cash has been parted with and there will be no problem with saying it's not for me!
Idlewithnodrive
26-01-2019, 14:08
This is exactly the sort of product where dealers should offer a sale or return. I would be up for that.
They probably will, purely because it makes perfect business sense.
They would initially sell many more, as it takes away the "risk" of buying a white elephant and, if the product really does as claimed, would have few, if any, returns.
As more and more of the product get out in the wild and receive good reviews, they will sell more product ....... Repeat ad infinitum.
Ah, an optimist finally :)
This is exactly the reason why you should establish a relationship with a dealer!
I currently have an Entreq Silver Tellus and Apollo Eartha cables on extended home demonstration!
No cash has been parted with and there will be no problem with saying it's not for me!
Hear hear, Steve! And how are you mate, btw? Long time no see:)
The problem is that the majority of folks on forums are tightfisted gits, some of whom also think they know it all, so dealers don't come into the equation. They'd far rather box-swap themselves to death, looking for 'bargains' on ebay, with little knowledge or direction, and suffer the consequences accordingly!;)
Marco.
I was using absurdio ad reductum to illustrate the logical fallacy of the 'If you haven't tried it you can't comment' argument, that's all.
'Reductum ad absurdio' surely Shirley?
dont think he was anywhere near shirley's rectum;)
tbh, companies in general dont do test ones. some dealers do but not all by any means. A bit sad as i might have bought things more often if they did.
Companies like Russ Andrews who are also often accused of selling Fairy Dust offer SOR so it shouldn't be an issue.
Add to this the fact that there are no electronics to be damaged by careless customers :)
Snoopdog
26-01-2019, 14:41
Hear hear, Steve! And how are you mate, btw? Long time no see:)
The problem is that the majority of folks on forums are tightfisted gits, some of whom also think they know it all, so dealers don't come into the equation. They'd far rather box-swap themselves to death, looking for 'bargains' on ebay, with little knowledge or direction, and suffer the consequences accordingly!;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Doing well, thanks mate. Hope all is well with you and yours?
We all have our own definitions of VFM and not everyone is fortunate to be able to allocate disposable income on hi fi equipment (new or used).
However, it does make me shake my head when I read comments about profit margins to be made in the hifi chain between manufacturer and dealer!
Everyone has to make a viable profit in order to survive in business. If you are fortunate to be able to purchase direct from the manufacturer, without adding in margins for distributor and dealer, then generally, the purchase price is easier on the wallet!
Entreq is manufactured in Sweden, has a UK distributor (Kong Audio) who in turn have a dealer network. Everyone in that chain has to remain in business and put food on the table for their families. This can result in some eye-watering prices for new products, but there are always "bargains" to be had in ex-dem and traded-in components.
It's all relative and if you try something in your system at home and perceive an improvement in listening pleasure (which, after all, is what our hobby/interest/obsession is all about!) then the expenditure can be justified, but please don't begrudge the people who bring these products to the market place, the opportunity to make a living!
AJSki2fly
26-01-2019, 15:18
I thought some of you might find this an interesting and informative read in relation to Ground/Earth loops, noise and inductance issues with all sorts of stuff, including video and hifi.
Page 56 for about 10 pages are useful info, 99-101 are quite informative, but it is all good stuff.
There is a load of information further on about noise elimination methods and what works and what does not.
It is from Bill Whitlock, President
Jensen Transformers, Inc.
Life Fellow, Audio Engineering Society
Life Senior Member, Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf
I am sure you can then make educated conclusions as to whether a grounding box will or won't work depending on what you find inside it.
'Reductum ad absurdio' surely Shirley?
I think it works either way round but it is thirty-four years since I was last in a Latin class (thank God) so maybe you're right.
Landloper
26-01-2019, 16:15
I think it works either way round but it is thirty-four years since I was last in a Latin class (thank God) so maybe you're right.
Well remembered, Martin: absurdum, governed by the preposition ad, and thus in the accusative.
AJSki2fly
26-01-2019, 16:22
absurdio ad reductum - unreasonable to extremes
reductum ad absurdio - reduced to the absurd
I am going to make a grounding box, but a themed version.
It’s going to be an indoor planter so it looks attractive and if it does not work, at least it will have a purpose.
:eyebrows:
hifi_dave
27-01-2019, 10:14
On PFM there is a pic of the internals of an Entreq (I believe). Notta lot inside.
Snoopdog
27-01-2019, 12:29
On PFM there is a pic of the internals of an Entreq (I believe). Notta lot inside.
I was just reading the Grounding Box thread on PFM and got as far as page 4 ......... It looks as though the entire thread has been pulled!
Must have been a controversial comment on page 7 or Entreq's lawyers have been watching!
On PFM there is a pic of the internals of an Entreq (I believe). Notta lot inside.
a plywood box,3 aluminium flat bars and some bare copper solid core wires,about £40 i reckon.
MikeMusic
27-01-2019, 14:04
Perhaps an insert? Some fitting between the cable and the jack, with the ground wire attached? So it could be applied to a jack that’s in use.
Russell
Might work
I'd take advice before trying it though.
anthonyTD
28-01-2019, 13:39
In theory, the old grounding rod we all used to have in our electricty system would work' as far as noise reduction in a very similar way, although it would depend on a few things; ie how good the electrical conectivity between the rod and ground was, how far away the rod was in the relation to your systems ring main, and also; if your equipment's 0 volt rail was actualy directly connected to the mains earth circuit from the power lead feeding it!
That is why many HI-FI enthusiasts used to fit a dedicated earth rod, as near in the ground to the system, and therefore connected to the system only!
Depending on where you live these days, most houses have the earth combined with the live and neutral in one cable, so how noisy the mains earth is will depend greatly on how far away your house is situated from the actuial grounding of that cable, which is usualy at the local distribution transformer.
Also; the noise that is present on the live and neutral has and will increase depending on how much equipment is connected to not only your house, but everybody elses house within the locality of that distribution transformer.
Switch mode power supplies, [which are in most consumer equipment these days] especialy badly designed one's and the noise they produce, are becoming a real problem these days, especialy for the power companies, having to deal with the added noise coming back down the cables!
Also; anything digital connected to your system, by the very nature of how it works has the potential to directly inject noise into your system.
A...
Excellent post, Anthony. It touches on a number of areas I can relate to, especially about dedicated earth rods, which I've had installed myself, the sonic benefits of which were immediately and *massively* obvious!
If the box in question succeeds in providing anything approaching that level of improvement, then the idea for this device (if not necessarily the price;)) is a very good one!!:cool:
Marco.
earsopen
28-01-2019, 14:50
Yes an excellent post - but what it shows is that where 'grounding boxes' are concerned, there is great difficulty with terminology.
Most grounding boxes are not to do with mains earthing and safety earthing.
Ground loops are not what is being removed either (ref an earlier post). That is not where they are having their effect.
There are explanations of what these boxes are doing on some of the manufacturers website, that can be accessed to try to understand the reason for their effectiveness.
Earth ground's very different issue, but as important especially if you live at the end of line, in a densely populated area or near industrial centers.
anthonyTD
28-01-2019, 14:59
Correct earthing is IMHO the main reason noise reduction IN RESPECT to "audio aplication" may or may not improve the sonics of said system.
Also please understand those of you interested in what I have written, I am not condoning changing, or modifying your existing, and therefore "safe" earthing system.
If you have a diffrent earth potential on one ring main to another, then this can become very dangerous in a fault situation, or when a person comes into contact with equipment connected to a mains earthed ring main, and one which is not!
I have my own thoughts and opinions as to if, or how these boxes may or may not work, but for the sake of the thread, and for those that find it interesting, I will keep them to myself. :)
A...
I was just reading the Grounding Box thread on PFM and got as far as page 4 ......... It looks as though the entire thread has been pulled!
Yup, unfortunately that's what happens when you allow some self-centred, arrogant and belligerent 'objectivists' free speech, especially those whose selfish purpose in life is to, I quote (one of which I've just banned): "do exactly what I chose to" [note the grammatical error, as engineers never were much good at English], with no consideration whatsoever for anyone else!:doh:
No wonder the world's in the state that it's in.........
Marco.
Yes an excellent post - but what it shows is that where 'grounding boxes' are concerned, there is great difficulty with terminology.
Most grounding boxes are not to do with mains earthing and safety earthing.
Ground loops are not what is being removed either (ref an earlier post). That is not where they are having their effect.
There are explanations of what these boxes are doing on some of the manufacturers website, that can be accessed to try to understand the reason for their effectiveness.
Hi Bob,
Could you quote from the websites concerned what you're referring to please? Cheers!:)
Marco.
I have my own thoughts and opinions as to if, or how these boxes may or may not work, but for the sake of the thread, and for those that find it interesting, I will keep them to myself.:)
Lol - well for me that's somewhat of a contradiction, as some of us who are reading this thread with interest, would find it rather more interesting if you revealed those thoughts!;)
Marco.
P.S Agree fully on the safety aspects of dedicated earth rods. I had mine installed by a qualified electrician, nearly 15 years ago, without issues. Yes, that's how long I've been at the hi-fi 'mains game'! [Actually since 1998].
anthonyTD
28-01-2019, 15:38
I will say one thing, as far as the experience Firebottle eluded to, and please understand I am not questioning his experience, it would have been more interesting if the test had been conducted with a few diffrent types of amplification; ie; non switching, and conventional, and analog front ends, instead of all digital!
Lol - well for me that's somewhat of a contradiction, as some of us who are reading this thread with interest, would find it rather more interesting if you revealed those thoughts!;)
Marco.
P.S Agree fully on the safety aspects of dedicated earth rods. I had mine installed by a qualified electrician, nearly 15 years ago, without issues. Yes, that's how long I've been at the hi-fi 'mains game'! [Actually since 1998].
MikeMusic
28-01-2019, 16:12
I will say one thing, as far as the experience Firebottle eluded to, and please understand I am not questioning his experience, it would have been more interesting if the test had been conducted with a few diffrent types of amplification; ie; non switching, and conventional, and analog front ends, instead of all digital!
My tests were first with
Rega Isis CD and Belles hybrid Pre. SS with a couple of valves
then
TAD CD/Pre/DAC
TAD Power Amp
nowt else
Grounding boxes are clearly the flavour of the day/week/month. But do we really need three separate threads about them?
Snoopdog
28-01-2019, 16:30
Yup, unfortunately that's what happens when you allow some self-centred, arrogant and belligerent 'objectivists' free speech, especially those whose selfish purpose in life is to, I quote (one of which I've just banned): "do exactly what I chose to" [note the grammatical error, as engineers never were much good at English], with no consideration whatsoever for anyone else!:doh:
No wonder the world's in the state that it's in.........
Marco.
I think you're spot-on there Marco!
The trouble with forums is there is so much useful and knowledgeable information buried in amongst arguments between posters!
In an effort to get a handle on the subject of grounding boxes and real consumer experience and feedback, I waded through nearly 150 pages of posts on one thread about "Entreq" on an American forum.
Just when it got really interesting, some idiot would chime in with an insulting post and the whole thing would become derailed for a couple of pages, before returning to actual customer experience!
God only knows what was said to result in the thread on PFM being taken down!
I will say one thing, as far as the experience Firebottle eluded to, and please understand I am not questioning his experience, it would have been more interesting if the test had been conducted with a few diffrent types of amplification; ie; non switching, and conventional, and analog front ends, instead of all digital!
A valid question and genuine Anthony.
Have tried these devices with all valves / analogue systems (both TT and R2R), Berni on here has a classic Valves / vinyl set up works just dandy on his system.
In fact only two systems that I know have these GB's have switching amps, the rest are classic a/b / valves with the odd class 'a' thrown in.
Snoopdog's system is digital / class a/b he uses Entreq (which we do not sell) seems happy with the results.
perhaps MR C for the ignorant like myself you could explain what these boxes are doing and why etc?
anthonyTD
28-01-2019, 17:35
:)
A valid question and genuine Anthony.
Have tried these devices with all valves / analogue systems (both TT and R2R), Berni on here has a classic Valves / vinyl set up works just dandy on his system.
In fact only two systems that I know have these GB's have switching amps, the rest are classic a/b / valves with the odd class 'a' thrown in.
Snoopdog's system is digital / class a/b he uses Entreq (which we do not sell) seems happy with the results.
Grounding boxes are clearly the flavour of the day/week/month. But do we really need three separate threads about them?
Why does it matter? Are we paying by the thread now?
Why does it matter? Are we paying by the thread now?
I'm paying nowt, meself, just it's a tad confusing. But hey, what do I know?
Snoopdog
28-01-2019, 19:28
A valid question and genuine Anthony.
Have tried these devices with all valves / analogue systems (both TT and R2R), Berni on here has a classic Valves / vinyl set up works just dandy on his system.
In fact only two systems that I know have these GB's have switching amps, the rest are classic a/b / valves with the odd class 'a' thrown in.
Snoopdog's system is digital / class a/b he uses Entreq (which we do not sell) seems happy with the results.
Currently assessing a loaned Entreq Silver Tellus with four Apollo Eartha cables (two XLR to DAC, one RCA phono to transport and one RCA phono to preamp).
Definitely something going on, with lower noise and ease of musical presentation.
Looking forward to Tony's RTZ box and cables! :)
The funny thing is Marco, those arrogant objectivists, are, with their arrogance, losing objectivity. :-)
The trouble with forums is there is so much useful and knowledgeable information buried in amongst arguments between posters!
Indeed. I don't mind arguments, as long as they stick to the subject being discussed and don't turn personal. Displaying a bit of controlled passion is good on subjects of interest. Sadly however, some folks are incapable of that, especially the irascible sorts who don't realise that things turn personal often as a *direct* result of their belligerence, and how aggressively they address people!:doh:
In an effort to get a handle on the subject of grounding boxes and real consumer experience and feedback, I waded through nearly 150 pages of posts on one thread about "Entreq" on an American forum.
Just when it got really interesting, some idiot would chime in with an insulting post and the whole thing would become derailed for a couple of pages, before returning to actual customer experience!
Yup, I had to ban someone yesterday exactly for that. Why do these arrogant clowns think that they're entitled to spew their bile over any subject that doesn't fit with their prejudices? That's the problem these days, though: ENTITLEMENT. Unjustified 'Entitlement Syndrome' is rife!!:rolleyes:
I blame how they've been brought up; as kids they should've been spoiled less and slapped more....... Thankfully however, we moderate *very strictly* here on the above behaviour, so very few threads are locked or deleted.
Marco.
The funny thing is Marco, those arrogant objectivists, are, with their arrogance, losing objectivity. :-)
Lol, you can't beat a bit of unintentional irony!
Marco.
Irony.. A bit like woody but thicker [emoji23]
I've got a nice thick woody. The nurse said you have, too!:D
Marco.
I've got a nice thick woody. The nurse said you have, too!:D
Marco.Aye but she was talking about my bonce
It’s not just the box though is it? Seems the cable(s) can cost almost as much as the box. This can add up to a significant amount of smackeroos!
It looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.
It looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.
The problem being possible gullibility.
The reason for arrogance is in essence, the inability to absorb and deal with the tensions and anxieties which occur in an individual whilst addressing the travails of life.
I have previously mentioned a book on this, in which the author describes various personality types, and the advantages of actually coping with the pressure of unresolved issues.
The arrogant response is really an attempt to 'dump' on someone else, his own discordance resulting from his anxiety.
The reason for arrogance is in essence, the inability to absorb and deal with the tensions and anxieties which occur in an individual whilst addressing the travails of life.
Ah, but which of us would agree we are arrogant?
Ah, but which of us would agree we are arrogant?
True enlightenment comes with an honest self-appraisal. So I heard.
Beobloke
29-01-2019, 12:52
Yup, I had to ban someone yesterday exactly for that. Why do these arrogant clowns think that they're entitled to spew their bile over any subject that doesn't fit with their prejudices?
Forgive me, Marco, but I'm not sure that introducing a bit of science can be construed as "prejudice"!
Frankly, as an engineer, many of the claims made for these units and the explanations for the alleged "engineering" behind them are somewhere between woefully misguided and downright hilarious. That said, if someone wants to buy one and thinks it makes a change to their system then I have no problem with that, and I would defend their right to do so.
However, I would hope in return that they would defend my right to point out that there is no scientific basis for any improvement to their system and that, if they are hearing a difference, it's most likely because of the increased noise and RF pickup on their system's ground connections!
Firebottle
29-01-2019, 13:14
Forgive me, Marco, but I'm not sure that introducing a bit of science can be construed as "prejudice"!
Frankly, as an engineer, many of the claims made for these units and the explanations for the alleged "engineering" behind them are somewhere between woefully misguided and downright hilarious.
He he, there will always be 'optimistic' marketing speak, some of the spiel I have read recently has been very amusing.
.......... it's most likely because of the increased noise and RF pickup on their system's ground connections!
Now I have to disagree with you there, I don't know how it works exactly but I am convinced there is a reduction in said noise and RF pickup.
perhaps MR C for the ignorant like myself you could explain what these boxes are doing and why etc?
No reply’s????
Spectral Morn
29-01-2019, 13:14
Thread starting to creep off topic, so keep it to topic not speculation about arrogance etc
Beobloke
29-01-2019, 14:59
Now I have to disagree with you there, I don't know how it works exactly but I am convinced there is a reduction in said noise and RF pickup.
Whilst I realise I’m putting my head in the lions mouth by mentioning the ‘m’ word, the measurements I’ve seen suggest that these boxes do little more than turn the interconnects plugged into them into handy RF antennae!
Now I have to disagree with you there, I don't know how it works exactly but I am convinced there is a reduction in said noise and RF pickup.
But I think that is the crux of the issue Alan. As Adam points out noise can be measured and the results used to back up the manufacturers claims...or not. How the unit reduces RF pickup is beyond me, It may do something with it but I can’t see how it reduces the pickup. It’s not a faraday cage after all.
The lack of measurements to prove that it does do what it is claimed to do is certainly a mark against it. If it does reduce noise then it would be possible to quantify that.
Conclusions are:
That the manufacturer has not attempted to measure the noise reduction - which would be odd as you would think that would be a routine part of the development and testing process for a device intended to reduce noise.
Or
That they have measured and found no reduction/an increase in noise and are therefore keeping quiet about it.
Can't see that there is a third alternative?
To measure what grounding boxes do would require multiple environments. I assume that a system with few or no RFI issues would not see a benefit. A system with horrible RFI issues may do and then we get to what sort of RFI issues exist and what can be alleviated. All pretty hard to test to be honest. A system with horrible RFI issues may respond to careful cable dressing so is the grounding box help, hard to say...I think we rapidly get into the "too hard or CBA" territory.
blackmetalboon
29-01-2019, 18:54
How does RFI and /or leakage currents audibly manifest itself in our systems?
Firebottle
29-01-2019, 19:10
It can mask very low level details that give the accuracy of note leading and trailing edges and spacial awareness.
You need to hear what standard 16/44.1 can achieve when there is no masking present.
blackmetalboon
29-01-2019, 19:17
So we are talking about a reduction in the noise floor? Would this still be apparent with the system switched on but no music playing?
You need to hear what standard 16/44.1 can achieve when there is no masking present.
As opposed to what? 16/44.1 captures the entire recording, it can't get any better than that.
Hi Adam,
Forgive me, Marco, but I'm not sure that introducing a bit of science can be construed as "prejudice"!
Frankly, as an engineer, many of the claims made for these units and the explanations for the alleged "engineering" behind them are somewhere between woefully misguided and downright hilarious. That said, if someone wants to buy one and thinks it makes a change to their system then I have no problem with that, and I would defend their right to do so.
However, I would hope in return that they would defend my right to point out that there is no scientific basis for any improvement to their system and that, if they are hearing a difference, it's most likely because of the increased noise and RF pickup on their system's ground connections!
There's nothing for me to forgive in that post mate, as I completely agree!
The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system, and how they turn what are simply their personal views, not fact, into a form of dogma. And incidentally, I don't include you in that.
I have nothing whatsoever against introducing a bit of science into subjects such as this, but only if it's done constructively, for the reason of providing helpful information, and that's helpful for the OP of the thread concerned, or others interested in the item being discussed, not for someone simply to feel better about themselves, because they've just rubbished a product that they consider as "foo"!;)
So please feel free to point out what you see fit (even measurements and shit, if you want:D), as you *always* express your views on ANY subject, politely, whilst being courteous towards those you disagree with. Unfortunately, that can't be said for many of the engineers I've met on forums [including the one I've just banned], who tend to be rather inconsiderate and self-centred, dogmatic types.
When you're communicating on forums with others of different beliefs and mindsets, it always boils down to this:
It's NOT what you say, but *HOW* you say it!
So before barging onto threads, with all the subtlety of an elephant, to ridicule or rubbish a product, consider what effect that will have on anyone who owns it.
Marco.
How does RFI and /or leakage currents audibly manifest itself in our systems?
I suppose it all depends on the frequencies involved. Certain cables eg older Nordost were wonderful aerials, the resulting sound was lean with a sparkly topend.
The performance of this equipment must be measurable (or immeasurable) in the correct environment.
So has anyone tried any of the multiple versions of these boxes yet and Decided there’s no difference or even its worse?
I'll just stick to my clip-on ferrites. There's a measurable reduction in rf through the cables when using them, they're very cheap and I 'thought' they made a slight audible difference, so still use them (the more you use the less the 'difference' one imagines). Some gear is very 'clean' up at those frequencies anyway (supply rejection and so on) so all this guff makes little to no difference at all and I've never found they make the sound 'worse' in the stereo's I've owned and used.
Beobloke
30-01-2019, 09:58
How does RFI and /or leakage currents audibly manifest itself in our systems?
If you’re using good quality equipment with properly designed power supplies and filtering, then it should have no audible effect at all!
I remember when noise in hifi systems really was noise; turntable rumble, cable hum, phono amps picking up radio signals, none of this namby-pamby 'inaudible noise' nonsense.
If you’re using good quality equipment with properly designed power supplies and filtering, then it should have no audible effect at all!
That's the theory, but unfortunately, IME, it doesn't often bear out in practice...
That's why (in my system and that of many others, featuring equipment with "properly designed power supplies"), a shielded mains lead, built for hi-fi purposes (doesn't need to be fancy, something from Belden would do for around £40) outperforms a basic 'kettle lead', and moreover, why installing a dedicated radial spur for a hi-fi system, depending on the area you live in and how badly the mains is polluted (particularly with DC from nearby industrial works, etc), and how many active SMPS units you have, switching away and generating noise, especially in household appliances, can make a *massive" difference!;)
No thoughts on post #200?:)
Marco.
I remember when noise in hifi systems really was noise; turntable rumble, cable hum, phono amps picking up radio signals, none of this namby-pamby 'inaudible noise' nonsense.
Ha - too true, but at least in those days the mains wasn't as polluted as it is now, from the cumulative use of all the cheap SMPS units everything electrical you buy now has, and with all the bloody mobile phones around, there's also more RFI than ever!:doh:
Marco.
"The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system"
What actually is gong on, is a corruption of the scientific method to provide comfort to the espouser; they are not usually entirely objective, and mask their lack of intellectual rigour with a stance of arrogant aggression.
In my time with Auntie, this was a cultural norm, the body language expressing contempt for anyone less qualified, as though they must implicitly be inferior in all they thought and did.
Stratmangler
30-01-2019, 12:05
Ha - too true, but at least in those days the mains wasn't as polluted as it is now, from the cumulative use of all the cheap SMPS units everything electrical you buy now has, and with all the bloody mobile phones around, there's also more RFI than ever!:doh:
Marco.
Weirdly enough it's the SMPS units that generate more RFI than the mobile phones.
RFI simply stands for radio frequency interference, and it isn't necessarily air borne.
All the SMPS units switch at radio frequencies.
"The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system"
What actually is gong on, is a corruption of the scientific method to provide comfort to the espouser; they are not usually entirely objective, and mask their lack of intellectual rigour with a stance of arrogant aggression.
In my time with Auntie, this was a cultural norm, the body language expressing contempt for anyone less qualified, as though they must implicitly be inferior in all they thought and did.
Brilliant, Dennis. We haven't had a 'Captain Insightful' post from you for ages! Needless to say, I think you're *spot on*. It certainly reflects my experience, and my view of what's happening.
You're last sentence, however, is especially revealing and rather interesting. Would you say that this "cultural norm" has bred the type of arrogant aggression and dogma, often displayed on forums by 'engineering types'/objectivists? Also, what caused this "cultural norm" to start with, and which also appears to have bred the (often unjustified) sense of superiority you've mentioned?
Now before someone jumps down my throat, I'm NOT saying that the above applies to all engineers, far from it [there are many on here who don't display such traits], but I have to say it certainly applies to a goodly dose of them I've encountered on forums, since I first stared posting on them - and it has caused no end of friction and fallouts, especially when people like me won't just put up with it.
Marco.
Weirdly enough it's the SMPS units that generate more RFI than the mobile phones.
RFI simply stands for radio frequency interference, and it isn't necessarily air borne.
All the SMPS units switch at radio frequencies.
Yup mate, I know, and your (valid) post simply backs up what I've been saying, and which is why you need to eradicate them wherever possible. With mains quality, we've never had it worse - and it's not going to improve anytime soon either!
Marco.
alas ive loads of smps; not a lot i can do about it really either.
Beobloke
30-01-2019, 12:43
No thoughts on post #200?:)
Marco.
All good! I shall continue to put my side of the case, then, but will of course refrain from going all Frank Drebin on anyone and calling them "Mr. Poopy-Pants". :D
Stratmangler
30-01-2019, 12:45
Yup mate, I know, and your (valid) post simply backs up what I've been saying, and which is why you need to eradicate them wherever possible. With mains quality, we've never had it worse - and it's not going to improve anytime soon either!
Marco.
Eradicating them altogether is not going to happen - they use something like 20% of the power a linear psu does.
If every manufacturer of electrical devices moved back to using linear PSUs the power requirements nationally would exceed generating capacity.
SMPS manufacturers should make them with a much higher standard of filtering, so that the use of SMPS has no effect at all on locally connected euipment, but that will in turn have a knock on effect on the cost per unit to manufacture.
So it won't happen.
Ferrite chokes are a relatively inexpensive way of significantly reducing mains borne RFI.
The
Honestly if the outside world read this post regarding the subject of a grounding box they would be amused and bemused like I am.:scratch:
AJSki2fly
30-01-2019, 12:51
I thought some of you might find this an interesting and informative read in relation to Ground/Earth loops, noise and inductance issues with all sorts of stuff, including video and hifi.
Page 56 for about 10 pages are useful info, 99-101 are quite informative, but it is all good stuff.
There is a load of information further on about noise elimination methods and what works and what does not.
It is from Bill Whitlock, President
Jensen Transformers, Inc.
Life Fellow, Audio Engineering Society
Life Senior Member, Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf
I am sure you can then make educated conclusions as to whether a grounding box will or won't work depending on what you find inside it.
Referring to the 2 previous posts from Marco and Pharos I would suggest people have a read of the above, it is lengthy but IMO deals with various aspects of Earth/ground and the issues of interference and noise floor, and from an engineer in the field so to speak.
alas ive loads of smps; not a lot i can do about it really either.
Course you can...
Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.
Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.
Both of my hard-drives and router are all powered from a dedicated linear PSU [designed and built by Duncan for less than £300], and their original cheap, shitty (noisy) SMPS ones chucked in the bin - and all of that has allowed my streaming system to perform better, sonically.
As they say, 'Where there's a will, there's a way'...;)
Marco.
Eradicating them altogether is not going to happen - they use something like 20% of the power a linear psu does.
If every manufacturer of electrical devices moved back to using linear PSUs the power requirements nationally would exceed generating capacity.
SMPS manufacturers should make them with a much higher standard of filtering, so that the use of SMPS has no effect at all on locally connected euipment, but that will in turn have a knock on effect on the cost per unit to manufacture.
So it won't happen.
Ferrite chokes are a relatively inexpensive way of significantly reducing mains borne RFI.
I agree with all of that, but it's still no excuse to be lazy or apathetic towards the situation, as I've just outlined, if you *truly* want the best sound!
The
The what? The chances of Man City winning a European trophy sometime soon are slim?:lol::D
Only kidding!!!
Marco.
I've only got the TV and cable box using smps - I did try disconnecting them entirely when listening (they would normally be in 'standby' mode - made no difference I could discern.
Also sometimes listen with the tv on and the sound down, again can't hear any difference.
Okay so I can't say for certain from that one instance that the whole SMPS thing is a none issue but I suspect it is. Maybe if you have loads of the things plugged in all over the house it might be more noticeable.
Referring to the 2 previous posts from Marco and Pharos I would suggest people have a read of the above, it is lengthy but IMO deals with various aspects of Earth/ground and the issues of interference and noise floor, and from an engineer in the field so to speak.
Cheers, Adrian. I'll have read that later. Lunch beckons now - and I have some rather nice home-made tortellini al ragu to devour!:cool:
Marco.
AJSki2fly
30-01-2019, 14:01
Cheers, Adrian. I'll have read that later. Lunch beckons now - and I have some rather nice home-made tortellini al ragu to devour!:cool:
Marco.
Buon appetito
I've only got the TV and cable box using smps - I did try disconnecting them entirely when listening (they would normally be in 'standby' mode - made no difference I could discern.
Also sometimes listen with the tv on and the sound down, again can't hear any difference.
Okay so I can't say for certain from that one instance that the whole SMPS thing is a none issue but I suspect it is. Maybe if you have loads of the things plugged in all over the house it might be more noticeable.
That's fair enough, Martin, as it's your experience so far. Mine is different. If you'd been there when I swapped out the SMPS units for the router and hard-drives, and installed Dunc's linear PSU, in my streaming set up, you'd easily have heard the difference with that alone, trust me:)
Marco.
Buon appetito
Grazie molto!:)
Marco.
That's fair enough, Martin, as it's your experience so far. Mine is different. If you'd been there when I swapped out the SMPS units for the router and hard-drives, and installed Dunc's linear PSU, in my streaming set up, you'd easily have heard the difference, trust me:)
Marco.
They were actually part of the music-making system though. I'm talking about devices with SMPS that have nothing to do with the hi-fi but are still plugged in and drawing power whilst you are listening.
I've no hi-fi kit that uses SMPS so I can't test that.
They were actually part of the music-making system though. I'm talking about devices with SMPS that have nothing to do with the hi-fi but are still plugged in and drawing power whilst you are listening.
Yes, but regardless, it proves that replacing them in that area with something better, works!
In terms of your other point, often with these things you don't notice any difference in quick-fire A/B comparisons, but only after a period of time, one way or the other... After all, it's the reason why our systems often sound better in the early hours of the morning, when there is less of a drain on the mains, and a lot of the noisy crap has been switched off for the night.
*That* is essentially what you're achieving on a smaller scale when you unplug all unnecessary noisy devices at home. However, it's most likely you're not hearing any difference because you don't have much of that shit in use in the first place:)
Right, time for pasta!!
Marco.
I've only got the TV and cable box using smps - I did try disconnecting them entirely when listening (they would normally be in 'standby' mode - made no difference I could discern.
Also sometimes listen with the tv on and the sound down, again can't hear any difference.
Okay so I can't say for certain from that one instance that the whole SMPS thing is a none issue but I suspect it is. Maybe if you have loads of the things plugged in all over the house it might be more noticeable.
I’ve been contemplating a test day where I switch off all WiFi devices, the router, cordless phones etc and unplug as many smps wall warts as possible to see if there is any affect. Maybe when we get snowed in tomorrow would be a good time!
I’ve just counted 25 smps wall warts ‘in use’ throughout the house :eek:
Stratmangler
30-01-2019, 14:49
I’ve just counted 25 smps wall warts ‘in use’ throughout the house :eek:
With the central heating boiler, washing machine, microwave, fridge/freezer, TV, BDP etc the tally goes up even higher on the SMPS count.
That's how all pervasive the problem is.
I’ve been contemplating a test day where I switch off all WiFi devices, the router, cordless phones etc and unplug as many smps wall warts as possible to see if there is any affect. Maybe when we get snowed in tomorrow would be a good time!
Nice one, Neal. I'd love to read the outcome of that!:)
Get to it then, lad.
Marco.
With the central heating boiler, washing machine, microwave, fridge/freezer, TV, BDP etc the tally goes up even higher on the SMPS count.
That's how all pervasive the problem is.
Got a gas boiler (and central heating, plus wood burner), washing machine is only plugged in and used at night when we're in bed, and the microwave is very rarely on. The only thing that stays on 24/7 is the fridge freezer, for obvious reasons.
In truth, we don't have that much SMPS shit going on, because we're not 'tech freaks'. We even use the batteries on our laptops, and put them on charge overnight (similarly with mobile phones), so they don't inject any crap either when we're around, and there are no other computers in the house.
If I could, I'd have the TV and Virgin V6 box powered by a linear PSU!
Marco.
I’ve just counted 25 smps wall warts ‘in use’ throughout the house :eek:
Jeez - what's all that pish for?:eek:
Marco.
earsopen
30-01-2019, 18:35
To get back to grounding boxes, first a quote from Nordost about their Q-Core -
The QKORE is a parallel grounding device, which provides an artificial, “clean” earth for hifi audio systems using both an electrical and mechanical approach. This unique product combines Nordost’s patented Mono-Filament technology with purpose-built, Low-Voltage Attractor Plates (LVAPs), constructed with a proprietary metal alloy and a passive electronic circuit, in order to draw stray high frequency noise and voltage-generated magnetic fields to a manufactured earth point, leaving a clean reference behind. This passive system is contained in a mechanically tuned housing, and outfitted with gold-plated, WBT binding posts, which easily connect each component to an artificial ground. By providing for a balanced and very “clean” ground point, by-products of electrical balance imperfections between voltage and ground are no longer added to other pollutants, dramatically increasing high quality audio circuit performances.
Next, a link to Hifi+ magazine test of the Vertex Pico -
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/vertex-aq-pico-grounding-blocks/
Both Nordost and Vertex units are to combat the same problem as the Entreq boxes, but are probably not filled with with similar materials.
blackmetalboon
30-01-2019, 18:39
Course you can...
Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.
Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.
Considering pretty much all my gear uses SMPS’s this would be highly impracticable. IME the SMPS v’s Linear PS is pretty much a non-issue, there are good and bad examples of both.
I agree, Jason, but only one generates switching noise, by the very nature of how it works;)
However, as you say, there are good and bad examples of both, and it's how things work, as a whole, that ultimately matters most:)
Marco.
Duckworp
31-01-2019, 05:02
Referring to the 2 previous posts from Marco and Pharos I would suggest people have a read of the above, it is lengthy but IMO deals with various aspects of Earth/ground and the issues of interference and noise floor, and from an engineer in the field so to speak.
I don't see where he is referring to the effect of signal grounding boxes? It seems to be about reducing hum from a system. Though it is very technical so I can’t be entirely sure.
Course you can...
Firstly, minimise the amount of gear you use with SMPS in the first place, and in terms of audio equipment, only use stuff that's fitted with a fully-regulated linear PSU. If you have to buy older gear to facilitate that, then so be it. Secondly, when not in use, disconnect all non-essential items with SMPS from the mains supply (computers, phone chargers, etc), during times when you're listening to music.
Thirdly, where possible in the audio chain, replace SMPS units with fully-regulated linear PSUs, such I've had done in my streaming set-up.
Both of my hard-drives and router are all powered from a dedicated linear PSU [designed and built by Duncan for less than £300], and their original cheap, shitty (noisy) SMPS ones chucked in the bin - and all of that has allowed my streaming system to perform better, sonically.
As they say, 'Where there's a will, there's a way'...;)
Marco.Would cost quite a lot. I've a few down back of Hifi that I can't reach so they stay on.
I agree it's not optimal but my system isn't either I guess. If I was changing them the first would likely be the router smps
Duckworp
31-01-2019, 05:45
Hi Adam,
There's nothing for me to forgive in that post mate, as I completely agree!
The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system, and how they turn what are simply their personal views, not fact, into a form of dogma. And incidentally, I don't include you in that.
I have nothing whatsoever against introducing a bit of science into subjects such as this, but only if it's done constructively, for the reason of providing helpful information, and that's helpful for the OP of the thread concerned, or others interested in the item being discussed, not for someone simply to feel better about themselves, because they've just rubbished a product that they consider as "foo"!;)
So please feel free to point out what you see fit (even measurements and shit, if you want:D), as you *always* express your views on ANY subject, politely, whilst being courteous towards those you disagree with. Unfortunately, that can't be said for many of the engineers I've met on forums [including the one I've just banned], who tend to be rather inconsiderate and self-centred, dogmatic types.
When you're communicating on forums with others of different beliefs and mindsets, it always boils down to this:
It's NOT what you say, but *HOW* you say it!
So before barging onto threads, with all the subtlety of an elephant, to ridicule or rubbish a product, consider what effect that will have on anyone who owns it.
Marco.
Brilliant, Dennis. We haven't had a 'Captain Insightful' post from you for ages! Needless to say, I think you're *spot on*. It certainly reflects my experience, and my view of what's happening.
You're last sentence, however, is especially revealing and rather interesting. Would you say that this "cultural norm" has bred the type of arrogant aggression and dogma, often displayed on forums by 'engineering types'/objectivists? Also, what caused this "cultural norm" to start with, and which also appears to have bred the (often unjustified) sense of superiority you've mentioned?
Now before someone jumps down my throat, I'm NOT saying that the above applies to all engineers, far from it [there are many on here who don't display such traits], but I have to say it certainly applies to a goodly dose of them I've encountered on forums, since I first stared posting on them - and it has caused no end of friction and fallouts, especially when people like me won't just put up with it.
Marco.
I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.
The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.
On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).
And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
AJSki2fly
31-01-2019, 06:40
I don't see where he is referring to the effect of signal grounding boxes? It seems to be about reducing hum from a system. Though it is very technical so I can’t be entirely sure.
He does not talk about grounding boxes but discusses at length the issues a grounding box tries to address, lowering noise floor, earth/grounding issues, and how hum is induced. He warms about interconnecting multiple units to the same ground if I recall correctly. So it is definitely worth reading imo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Firebottle
31-01-2019, 08:15
I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.
The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.
On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).
And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
Excellent post Peter :thumbsup:
jandl100
31-01-2019, 08:43
Yes, great post, Peter.
I avoid forums which allow such vitriol and pure nastiness.
My cheapo Chinese grounding box still hasn't arrived. :popcorn:
Stratmangler
31-01-2019, 08:51
My cheapo Chinese grounding box still hasn't arrived. :popcorn:
I wondered whether or not it had turned up.
Would cost quite a lot. I've a few down back of Hifi that I can't reach so they stay on.
I agree it's not optimal but my system isn't either I guess. If I was changing them the first would likely be the router smps
Just to be clear, the linear PSU I referred to powers my two hard-drives and the router, so it's not £300 per PSU, to replace each SMPS. I'm pretty sure he could build one big enough to replace all the SMPS units used in your streaming system, for not much more, although a lot would depend on the electrical requirements of the items concerned.
Highly recommended mate, as it will significantly improve the sound you get, not only from your streamer, but your whole system, as less noise will be injected into your supply - and it tidies things up, too! I could deliver it, next time I'm up your way, and help you connect it all up. Worth having a chat to him about it:)
Ok, time for breakfast and big mug of cappuccino! I'll reply to other recent posts shortly:cool:
Marco.
Stratmangler
31-01-2019, 09:16
The what? The chances of Man City winning a European trophy sometime soon are slim?:lol::D
Only kidding!!!
Marco.
It's a long time since we last won one, coz it was not all that long after your lot won the European Cup, ie a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, long time ago, almost outside of living memory :eyebrows:
remember both well. watched the celtic game. didnt see the city game tho...think it was one of my european fav teams of the time they beat in Gornik.
might add Gornik mugged us(gers) 3-1 home and away.:doh:
It's a long time since we last won one, coz it was not all that long after your lot won the European Cup, ie a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, long time ago, almost outside of living memory :eyebrows:
:lolsign:
Hahaha... At least we've won the European Cup, though - and all with Scottish players who lived within a 30 mile radius of each other! Can you see City ever winning the CL and equalling the achievements of your rivals across the city, in that area?
Don't get me wrong, I hope they do, as I enjoy it when any British club wins European trophies:)
Marco.
:lolsign:
Hahaha... At least we've won the European Cup, though - and all with Scottish players who lived within a 30 mile radius of each other! Can you see City ever winning the CL and equalling the achievements of your rivals across the city, in that area?
Don't get me wrong, I hope they do, as I enjoy it when any British club wins it:)
Marco.
:offtopic:
:offtopic:Is it off topic?
There's a ground, boxes and a copper link in there [emoji23]
Is it off topic?
There's a ground, boxes and a copper link in there [emoji23]
:lol:
I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.
Thanks, Peter. We simply wouldn't allow that to happen here; indeed it's the very reason AoS was created: as a safe haven from all the endless bun fights and aggression.
Before then, I'd suffered it for years on other forums and saw how destructive it was. People need to be able to express their views and relate their *valid* experiences (whether scientifically provable or not) in a friendly, non-confrontational environment, and should be shown the politeness and courtesy necessary for that to happen.
If you're incurably irascible [then you won't last long on any forum], arrogantly ignore the rules, thinking you can do what you like, and in general behave in a manner that is completely unacceptable, then you'll quickly be shown the door - and rightly so. We moderate *very strictly* here on that basis, in order to create a platform where no-one will feel harassed or intimidated - and that applies to both objectivists and subjectivists.
On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).
I haven't used a grounding box, but that's been generally my experience when trying a number of similar tweaks, which on the surface, might seem like 'snake oil'. If a system is any good to begin with, the differences these products make, if they work at all, should be subtle, not 'night & day'. And whether they work or not at all, can come down to a number of factors, which is why results are so often variable.
However, the bottom line in these matters is that being naturally sceptical and questioning things is good, but not if it promotes a closed mind! Scepticism is healthy. Pigheaded cynicism isn't.
And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
Indeed; that's it in a nutshell.
However, *even* if you were imagining a difference, as let's face it ALL of us possess the ability sometimes to be fooled by our senses, the fact is, *NO-ONE*, on any forum, is qualified to TELL someone, in no uncertain terms (which dogmatic objectivists often do), that they're deluded, simply because they don't have CONCLUSIVE proof of such; only what their scientific belief systems *appear to contradict*, based on current learning.
It's the arrogant and automatic dismissal of our valid experiences, instead of them being given due consideration, which makes one's blood boil more than anything else, because it then turns things personal. The fact is, even if it's true, telling someone that they're deluded, is unkind and insulting and unlikely to add any value to the discussion. Therefore, it's only natural to defend yourself and retaliate.
And when that happens, there's only one way the discussion will end, and which you saw on pfm. I've seen it happen 100s of times in the past, on many different forums. And if not effectively addressed/moderated, it's ultimately what kills them, as folks who just want to discuss hi-fi, without having their experiences rudely rubbished and dismissed, will just walk away.
That's why we won't allow it here! :cool:
Marco.
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