View Full Version : Grounding boxes - The real deal
walpurgis
07-02-2019, 09:49
I keep hearing about "open minds". I sense the term is being used almost dismissively to sideline anybody who has doubts about 'grounding boxes'. I have a very dubious view of these, simply because there is no logical basis that I can see for them having any real beneficial effect. Descriptions of what they actually do are to me at least specious. The mystery surounding the box contents is enough to immediately raise my suspicions and doubts. There are no 'magic crystals' out there, so why the coyness?
I reserve the right to not have to believe in these things! Or feel obliged to try one!!
I can say that, despite research over many decades, no proof, or even evidence of a sixth sense has emerged. Plenty of anecdotal reports, but nothing that has withstood rigorous testing in laboratory conditions. 'Believers' will say that this is because such powers are impaired by the 'stress' of test situations. Curiously, the same claim is made of perceived/claimed differences between audio components such as cables, which cannot be verified under blind testing.
Says who? Plenty of folk, including me (as indeed I outlined to Macca on another thread, only recently), have successfully identified differences in cables , under blind conditions.
Plus, in terms of "rigorous testing in laboratory conditions" [whatever that means to you], no-one so far, as far as I know, has commissioned and paid for a peer-reviewed scientific study, into ascertaining whether cables make a difference, which is what that means to me. The costs would be considerable. And of course, given the nature of what's being tested for, it wouldn't be *automatically guaranteed* to produce conclusive results.
You're being guilty of the same type of superficial thinking, as Martin was before: namely applying as fact (to situations where you believe it acts as proof) that which only your experience [or our currently learning] dictates as true.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it *is* true (at least in the context in which you're applying it); perhaps simply as yet unproven differently - unless you consider that we know [B]everything about the world we live in, how we function as humans, and therefore there is nothing further to learn...?
Clive's right. There's a lot of closed-mindedness starting to creep into this discussion, or rather the automatic stating as fact, that which simply best fits with our belief system.
Marco.
I keep hearing about "open minds". I sense the term is being used almost dismissively to sideline anybody who has doubts about 'grounding boxes'. I have a very dubious view of these, simply because there is no logical basis that I can see for them having any real beneficial effect. Descriptions of what they actually do are to me at least specious. The mystery surounding the box contents is enough to immediately raise my suspicions and doubts. There are no 'magic crystals' out there, so why the coyness?
I reserve the right to not have to believe in these things! Or feel obliged to try one!!
Let me state what prompted me to start talking about open minds. Dismissive comments continued to be made about perception above 20kHz after the link was posted to the paper where it showed there some response to said frequencies. Sure this is not proof that there's an impact for the audio world but I got the feeling that folks had not opened the link or found it to hard to read so dismissed it. I might be wrong about this as of course as I can't know what people have actually done.
As I alluded previously, I find it frustrating that some of these things have a positive benefit, in my head & heart I don't believe in them (or is that want to believe in them?) but when I hear a difference for myself then reluctantly I have to. That's me trying my best to be open minded...also I try not to totally diss something I've not heard - I might be dubious but I usually leave room to be convinced by my own ears.
not sure a lab is the right conditions to conduct such a test anyway. Im not really into mains cable differences either, as ive not heard any, nor do i see much good reason for there to be any, BUT, that doesnt mean i would belittle anyone who does. They may hear things i dont, i've no idea. it may have a loose connection to grounding boxes too for all i know, or anyone else here for that matter.
nobody is insisting naysayers believe, but they shouldnt take the piss either.
I keep hearing about "open minds". I sense the term is being used almost dismissively to sideline anybody who has doubts about 'grounding boxes'. I have a very dubious view of these, simply because there is no logical basis that I can see for them having any real beneficial effect. Descriptions of what they actually do are to me at least specious. The mystery surounding the box contents is enough to immediately raise my suspicions and doubts. There are no 'magic crystals' out there, so why the coyness?
I reserve the right to not have to believe in these things! Or feel obliged to try one!!
I am with you here for the most part. I don’t doubt the testimony of those who have tried these things and say they work. But, the lack of reasoning does bother me. I do not believe in Magic, and I do not see why an accurate account of why it works should give away anyone’s secrets. Too often I hear of these “Night and Day”, results, only to find that these huge differences amount to .01%. Better? Yes, but ever so slight, and if you never heard it, you could live your life fully without it.
Whenever a component is reviewed, photos of the inside are almost always part of the reviewer’s work. And if I had just bought an expensive box of magic parts, the very first thing I would do is open that sucker up and look inside! So, it’s only a matter of time before someone shows a photo of the inside of this box. How long do they think it can be kept a secret? OK, it’s not snake oil, I believe you, but why the snake oil sales tactics? As in, “we have no idea why this really works, but we offer up some pseudo science theories that may explain it, and the product stands on testimony alone.”, I’ve heard it too many times before.
And with that I’ll add that if you have one and it works then I think that’s great. If I had that kind of money laying around, I might own one myself. I learned long ago, when it comes to audio, never say never.
Russell
Whenever a component is reviewed, photos of the inside are almost always part of the reviewer’s work. And if I had just bought an expensive box of magic parts, the very first thing I would do is open that sucker up and look inside! So, it’s only a matter of time before someone shows a photo of the inside of this box. How long do they think it can be kept a secret?
Indeed... In terms of the latter, the only problem is that said box will almost certainly be securely sealed, thus attempting to gain access to the internals, will also almost certainly result in significant damage - and would you want to damage something that has just cost £800 (or more), and subsequently turn it pretty much into an ornament?
Therefore, what you're suggesting, would require someone to buy one of these boxes, who's willing to spunk £800 (or more) in the process, simply for curiosity purposes....
OK, it’s not snake oil, I believe you, but why the snake oil sales tactics? As in, “we have no idea why this really works, but we offer up some pseudo science theories that may explain it, and the product stands on testimony alone.”, I’ve heard it too many times before.
+1. However, that's not to *dismiss* [constructively challenge, yes, but rudely pooh-pooh, no] someone's valid experiences who owns one of these products, outlining their perceived efficacy in the context of their system.
The fact is, however. products such as these, which have (as yet) no clearly defined and proven purpose, or indeed effect, are always going to be heavily scrutinised by those who are naturally inquisitive, in terms of discovering how things work (such is human nature), and in that process they may also come under heavy criticism.
Therefore, as the owner of one such product, you can't come here simply expecting a 'group hug' or pat on the back, because you've just discovered a new toy which you think does something wonderful... That might happen anyway, and I'd be pleased if it did, but your views are also entitled to be (constructively) challenged by those who choose to question them.
That, muchachos, is the nature of the beast. Therefore, if you buy one of these products, and report your experiences of using it on a hi-fi forum [ANY hi-fi forum, which allows *constructive* free speech], then be prepared for them to be subjected to such scrutiny. The difference here, is that we'll ensure that it's done nicely!;)
Marco.
I am with you here for the most part. I don’t doubt the testimony of those who have tried these things and say they work. But, the lack of reasoning does bother me. I do not believe in Magic, and I do not see why an accurate account of why it works should give away anyone’s secrets. Too often I hear of these “Night and Day”, results, only to find that these huge differences amount to .01%. Better? Yes, but ever so slight, and if you never heard it, you could live your life fully without it.
Whenever a component is reviewed, photos of the inside are almost always part of the reviewer’s work. And if I had just bought an expensive box of magic parts, the very first thing I would do is open that sucker up and look inside! So, it’s only a matter of time before someone shows a photo of the inside of this box. How long do they think it can be kept a secret? OK, it’s not snake oil, I believe you, but why the snake oil sales tactics? As in, “we have no idea why this really works, but we offer up some pseudo science theories that may explain it, and the product stands on testimony alone.”, I’ve heard it too many times before.
And with that I’ll add that if you have one and it works then I think that’s great. If I had that kind of money laying around, I might own one myself. I learned long ago, when it comes to audio, never say never.
Russell
I think what happens when we hear a change in our systems which we know very well, the change can seem significant. In a system that you are new to it's much harder to hear differences or the differences seem less significant.
Which is "correct" or "more valid" and what is the impact of this on blind testing using systems the listener is not familiar with?
willbewill
07-02-2019, 10:49
Please bear with me if what I ask has already been covered...but I'm trying to make sense of it.
I assume the cables are only connected to the 'grounds' of the rca connections on each piece of equipment?
I also assume it is assumed that most, if not all, of the interference noise is to be found on the ground planes, either from external RFI, mains noise and internal circuit/power noise. It would, I assume, be difficult to differentiate between signal and noise on the signal side of the circuits?
Therefore the 'ground box' 'drains' this interference noise from the ground planes thus 'freeing up' the signal, giving greater clarity/transparency which manifests itself in increased soundstage etc? I have experienced this in the past with 'dirty' mains supplies, even down to a Lenco turntable having its power supply being provided by a speed controller instead of directly from a mains supply where everybody in a room jawdropped when they heard the difference...most of them did not even know it had been changed but heard it.Nobody care to make a comment?
Nobody care to make a comment?
Presumably the cleaning up is of signals at very high frequency, way above say 100kHz so when this if "drained" it would not remove any of the musical signal. That's the logic I apply here, whether it's correct I can't say.
I think what happens when we hear a change in our systems which we know very well, the change can seem significant. In a system that you are new to it's much harder to hear differences or the differences seem less significant.
Which is "correct" or "more valid" and what is the impact of this on blind testing using systems the listener is not familiar with?
Spot on, Clive. And therein lays the fundamental flaw in such blind testing!
That's the reason why I will *only* blind-test products in a familiar system, simply because you must start from the position of a known (sonic) benchmark, in order to accurately identify any change in such, and therefore, difference, from the use of whatever it is being tested.
It's not that blind testing, as a procedure in itself, is intrinsically flawed, but rather the methodology applied to test for the phenomenon in question - and therefore the results achieved can only ever be as accurate as allowed for by that methodology.
Marco.
Spot on, Clive. And therein lays the fundamental flaw in such blind testing!
That's the reason why I will *only* blind-test products in a familiar system, simply because you must start from the position of a known (sonic) benchmark, in order to accurately identify any change in such, and therefore, difference, from the use of whatever it is being tested.
It's not that blind testing, as a procedure in itself, is intrinsically flawed, but rather the methodology applied to test for the phenomenon in question - and therefore the results achieved can only ever be as accurate as allowed for by that methodology.
Marco.
Absolutely Marco and it applies to rooms as well.....the room being part of the system.
For sure... ALL known and applicable variables *must* be taken into consideration, and effectively addressed, in order for the test results to be as accurate as possible. That applies when testing anything!:)
Marco.
A thought crossed my tired mind, has anybody tried Russ Andrews shorties? Some of the reviews seem to suggest similar improvements to grounding boxes... https://www.russandrews.com/shorties-57359990000/#reviews
They stop all nasties getting inside, but look a bit expensive for what they are.
A thought crossed my tired mind, has anybody tried Russ Andrews shorties? Some of the reviews seem to suggest similar improvements to grounding boxes... https://www.russandrews.com/shorties-57359990000/#reviews
Yes, I've been using them for years, and with good success...
I meant to mention this much earlier in the thread, but forgot. Furthermore, I've always been able to hear the (subtle, not massive) detrimental sonic effect of having more than one piece of equipment plugged into my preamp, when listening to music, which is why for 'serious' listening sessions, I always disconnect whatever kit isn't being used, and fill the empty inputs with 'Shorties'.
Therefore, if that is what this grounding box (and others like it) are doing, but on a larger scale, then I can safely say that *for me* it works!:cool:
Marco.
RobbieGong
07-02-2019, 16:11
A thought crossed my tired mind, has anybody tried Russ Andrews shorties? Some of the reviews seem to suggest similar improvements to grounding boxes... https://www.russandrews.com/shorties-57359990000/#reviews
Shorties are an intriguing one.
They idea kind of comes across as foo. However and on the other hand, they do seem to make a difference to a lot of users ears
RobbieGong
07-02-2019, 16:18
Yes, I've been using them for years, and with good success...
I meant to mention this much earlier in the thread, but forgot. Furthermore, I've always been able to hear the (subtle, not massive) detrimental sonic effect of having more than one piece of equipment plugged into my preamp, when listening to music, which is why for 'serious' listening sessions, I always disconnect whatever kit isn't being used, and plug the empty inputs with 'Shorties'.
Therefore, if that is what this grounding box (and others like it) are doing, but on a larger scale, then I can safely say that *for me* it works!:cool:
Marco.
There you go, every little helps.
They've been around a few years now but must admit I was initially a tad sceptical when they first came on the scene.
I'll be plugging up with these myself one day at some point :)
But shorties can’t be any good as they are not expensive enough? ;)
They are extortionate. £18 a pop.. Cheaper using tinfoil
Yes. You could make your own much cheaper.
willbewill
07-02-2019, 17:45
Yes. You could make your own much cheaper.Use those freebie interconnect, cut the cable near the plug and twist the wires together.
A preamp should short unselected inputs to ground....but few do.
blackmetalboon
07-02-2019, 18:20
A thought crossed my tired mind, has anybody tried Russ Andrews shorties? Some of the reviews seem to suggest similar improvements to grounding boxes... https://www.russandrews.com/shorties-57359990000/#reviews
A second hand piece of equipment I bought had them fitted, took them out after a month, made no difference so I flogged them on a certain internat auction site.
Snoopdog
07-02-2019, 18:27
They are extortionate. £18 a pop.. Cheaper using tinfoil
According to RA's website, when they are available, that is the price for 12!
Spectral Morn
07-02-2019, 21:49
Marantz CD players once came with them as standard for shorting the digital outputs. That did improve the sound quality.
Firebottle
08-02-2019, 08:39
I have put my hand in my pocket and I have had an RTZ box plus a couple of cables for a few days now.
http://i63.tinypic.com/ivkdmv.jpg
Excellent gains were achieved to the digital playback soundstage, equipment being Philips CD610 mk2 as transport and Bel Canto DAC3 with VBS and external linear psu.
Previously some posters were asking if this would work in a fully analogue system, the answer is yes. So get your thought processes around this (yes I know it is magic really :rolleyes:).
All digital kit switched OFF. Analogue system as follows:
Lyra Clavis cartridge> Denon AU320 SUT>MM input on KIN preamp (hybrid)>Dual mono hybrid power amp.
The RTZ was connected to a spare input on the KIN with good result but the best result was when the two leads were connected to the L and R loading sockets, that is the same connection as the output leads from the SUT. Signal ground connection only remember.
Again the improvement was not subtle, a definite jump in SQ.
Yello never sounded so good. It is like I have upgraded the cartridge by a big margin.
Listening to an Annie lennox album, previously it could sound a bit screechy it was just drawing me into the performance.
The bass takes on another dimension, so clean and tight. Everything is better defined and in its own space.
Well chuffed.
Isn't Annie Lennox supposed to sound screechy? :D
AJSki2fly
08-02-2019, 09:17
I have put my hand in my pocket and I have had an RTZ box plus a couple of cables for a few days now.
http://i63.tinypic.com/ivkdmv.jpg
Excellent gains were achieved to the digital playback soundstage, equipment being Philips CD610 mk2 as transport and Bel Canto DAC3 with VBS and external linear psu.
Previously some posters were asking if this would work in a fully analogue system, the answer is yes. So get your thought processes around this (yes I know it is magic really :rolleyes:).
All digital kit switched OFF. Analogue system as follows:
Lyra Clavis cartridge> Denon AU320 SUT>MM input on KIN preamp (hybrid)>Dual mono hybrid power amp.
The RTZ was connected to a spare input on the KIN with good result but the best result was when the two leads were connected to the L and R loading sockets, that is the same connection as the output leads from the SUT. Signal ground connection only remember.
Again the improvement was not subtle, a definite jump in SQ.
Yello never sounded so good. It is like I have upgraded the cartridge by a big margin.
Listening to an Annie lennox album, previously it could sound a bit screechy it was just drawing me into the performance.
The bass takes on another dimension, so clean and tight. Everything is better defined and in its own space.
Well chuffed.
Well nice to hear you decided to find out for yourself and pleased that it works for you. Interesting!
Lee Henley
08-02-2019, 20:12
I have put my hand in my pocket and I have had an RTZ box plus a couple of cables for a few days now.
http://i63.tinypic.com/ivkdmv.jpg
Excellent gains were achieved to the digital playback soundstage, equipment being Philips CD610 mk2 as transport and Bel Canto DAC3 with VBS and external linear psu.
Previously some posters were asking if this would work in a fully analogue system, the answer is yes. So get your thought processes around this (yes I know it is magic really :rolleyes:).
All digital kit switched OFF. Analogue system as follows:
Lyra Clavis cartridge> Denon AU320 SUT>MM input on KIN preamp (hybrid)>Dual mono hybrid power amp.
The RTZ was connected to a spare input on the KIN with good result but the best result was when the two leads were connected to the L and R loading sockets, that is the same connection as the output leads from the SUT. Signal ground connection only remember.
Again the improvement was not subtle, a definite jump in SQ.
Yello never sounded so good. It is like I have upgraded the cartridge by a big margin.
Listening to an Annie lennox album, previously it could sound a bit screechy it was just drawing me into the performance.
The bass takes on another dimension, so clean and tight. Everything is better defined and in its own space.
Well chuffed.
Curiosity got the better of me so popped into Alan’s today, rude not to as he only lives about 100 yards from me. Anyway Alan spun a record I took with me, yet another LA4 album, and another I’ve got to find for Alan. So we played the track for a few minutes without the grounding box present, then with 1 of the inputs intimate the pre amp and then with the second input into the Pre amp, all I can say is that these work that’s for sure, definitely more space between the notes, more fluidity, texture and improved bass.
Not much else to say really, it’s a very good product and one I’m looking forward to hearing in my system soon
Lee
Bigman80
08-02-2019, 20:20
Curiosity got the better of me so popped into Alan’s today, rude not to as he only lives about 100 yards from me. Anyway Alan spun a record I took with me, yet another LA4 album, and another I’ve got to find for Alan. So we played the track for a few minutes without the grounding box present, then with 1 of the inputs intimate the pre amp and then with the second input into the Pre amp, all I can say is that these work that’s for sure, definitely more space between the notes, more fluidity, texture and improved bass.
Not much else to say really, it’s a very good product and one I’m looking forward to hearing in my system soon
LeeYup, Alan doesn't spend if he can help it so if he's pulled out the funds, he must be convinced.
I hope to get a listen soon in my system and will report any findings. I'll do it blind though.
Lee Henley
08-02-2019, 20:32
Yup, Alan doesn't spend if he can help it so if he's pulled out the funds, he must be convinced.
I hope to get a listen soon in my system and will report any findings. I'll do it blind though.
Mate it won’t taking much working out which demo has the plugs in
Bigman80
08-02-2019, 20:39
Mate it won’t taking much working out which demo has the plugs inWas it that obvious?
Oli in some systems it is more than obvious from just one lead, others take a couple to come up to speed
Obsolutely no cat litter, iron filings, minerals, capacitors or small men with Napoleon syndrome hiding away inside mind you not sure even the big version could house Marco's ego!
Best results are achieved with an even handed system imho
Obsolutely no cat litter, iron filings, minerals, capacitors or small men with Napoleon syndrome hiding away inside mind you not sure even the big version could house Marco's ego!
Certainly not, after housing yours!:D:ner:
Can your bestest box make Annie squeal like biatch?
Marco.
How to get Annie to squeal humm maybe a sheeps heart and a tin of vim 😇 (really showing my age now)
Mind you even your ego pales into insignificance compare to Paul Miller who's ego is the size of Jupiter and I have never met a person who manages to exceed his own stands of self pre occupation! Even M Collom's ego doesn't match up to that particular gargantuan!
Bigman80
08-02-2019, 23:35
Oli in some systems it is more than obvious from just one lead, others take a couple to come up to speed
Obsolutely no cat litter, iron filings, minerals, capacitors or small men with Napoleon syndrome hiding away inside mind you not sure even the big version could house Marco's ego!
Best results are achieved with an even handed system imhoWell I'll find out!
If it works, I'll say so.
The system has today been independently verified as 'Superb" so I'm sure if there is something to hear, it'll happen. [emoji6]
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 00:19
http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf
This contains a bit if information that may explain a little.
Firebottle
09-02-2019, 08:13
Very well written article, explaining the theory behind why these ground boxes are needed.
I was put off the author by the inclusion of 'pace rhythm and timing' as that expression is one of my bete noire's, but that is a different discussion.
Apart from saying the RF energy is converted to heat it doesn't really say how they work though.
Lee Henley
09-02-2019, 08:50
Was it that obvious?
Yes mate
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 08:51
Yes mateShit.
Apologies in advance if I’ve missed the relevant info as I’ve only been following the thread in parts... Am I to understand that the manufacturer/ seller is not providing any info as to the internal components of the grounding box??:scratch:
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 09:02
Apologies in advance if I’ve missed the relevant info as I’ve only been following the thread in parts... Am I to understand that the manufacturer/ seller is not providing any info as to the internal components of the grounding box??:scratch:Yes, which he is not obligated to so. Unfortunate, as no one understands how the things work!
Here is a little more to add to the confusion Oli, the various models also increase in performance (all round) as you progress through the range. Which again is pretty much straight away in the majority of systems they are attached to. We did try the various models at Alan's as while we were tinkering about with RF measurement the other day.
The internal components of the RTZ 'box' are CS intellectual property, exactly the same as the recipe for Coke a Cola and Lee and Perrings are those companies IP, it is exactly the same if you like either of those products you purchase them, if they do nothing for you, then you will not purchase them, very straightforward.
Here is a little more to add to the confusion Oli, the various models also increase in performance (all round) as you progress through the range. Which again is pretty much straight away in the majority of systems they are attached to. We did try the various models at Alan's as while we were tinkering about with
The internal components of the RTZ 'box' are CS intellectual property, exactly the same as the recipe for Coke a Cola and Lee and Perrings are those companies IP, it is exactly the same if you like either of those products you purchase them, if they do nothing for you, then you will not purchase them, very straightforward.
Not exactly the same as Coca Cola et al where the basic ingredients are listed. If you buy coke and don’t like it there is no real financial dent, in this case however...
Not exactly the same as Coca Cola al where the basic, principal ingredients are listed. If you buy coke and don’t like it there is no real financial dent, in this case however...
You can always try it before you buy it. I don't think any of the owners we have heard from so far bought one without having had a demo first.
Firebottle
09-02-2019, 09:54
Financial dent = increased performance.
Seriously it is almost like you have doubled the price of the system, if not more. In fact if you did double the price of all your gear you wouldn't necessarily get a much better result than before.
You can always try it before you buy it. I don't think any of the owners we have heard from so far bought one without having had a demo first.
Cheers, I wasn’t aware of that
However I’d still like a general idea of the internals as is customary when buying an amp, tt or other kit. Knowing it doesn’t contain shortbread isn’t much help...
willbewill
09-02-2019, 10:00
Has anyone listened to the results via a headphone system?
Financial dent = increased performance.
Seriously it is almost like you have doubled the price of the system, if not more. In fact if you did double the price of all your gear you wouldn't necessarily get a much better result than before.
It must be good if you bought one.
As you are a retired EE, and as someone who used to dabble in Radio etc. I am patiently waiting for your explanation of how it works.
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 10:11
http://www.computeraudiodesign.com/CAD_Ground_Control.pdf
This contains a bit if information that may explain a little.
I have just had a quick read and this didn’t explain much. In fact there are some technically inaccurate statements in it, I’ll let them slide as it does say it has been written for people with little or no background knowledge.
Financial dent = increased performance.
Seriously it is almost like you have doubled the price of the system, if not more. In fact if you did double the price of all your gear you wouldn't necessarily get a much better result than before.
This is quickly approaching the realms of “hyperbole”!
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 10:13
I have just had a quick read and this didn’t explain much. In fact there are some technically inaccurate statements in it, I’ll let them slide as it does say it has been written for people with little or no background knowledge.
This is quickly approaching the realms of “hyperbole”!Feel free to enlighten us!
Based on the fact there is little known about this type of item, I thought it was worth a share.
Sorry to disappoint!! [emoji1787]
willbewill
09-02-2019, 10:26
One man's take on it
https://youtu.be/zgqYdq0VgKg
Snoopdog
09-02-2019, 10:31
One man's take on it
https://youtu.be/zgqYdq0VgKg
He'll come around, when he figures out how to make one and bring it to market under the PS Audio name!
willbewill
09-02-2019, 10:31
He'll come around, when he figures out how to make one and bring it to market under the PS Audio name!Hahaha
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 10:32
Feel free to enlighten us!
Based on the fact there is little known about this type of item, I thought it was worth a share.
Sorry to disappoint!! [emoji1787]
“For safety reasons, any electrical device in a conductive (metal) casing must legally have an earth connection. Most audio components have metal housings that must be earthed - the exact same earth connection as those noisy domestic devices are connected to.”
Class II equipment that doesn’t require a mains earth connection can be housed in a metal case/housing/enclosure.
“One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth.”
Electrical current will flow through various paths in inverse proportion to its resistance.
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 10:35
“For safety reasons, any electrical device in a conductive (metal) casing must legally have an earth connection. Most audio components have metal housings that must be earthed - the exact same earth connection as those noisy domestic devices are connected to.”
Class II equipment that doesn’t require a mains earth connection can be housed in a metal case/housing/enclosure.
“One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth.”
Electrical current will flow through various paths in inverse proportion to its resistance.Ok, so what are you highlighting?
The class II Bit?
Snoopdog
09-02-2019, 10:45
“For safety reasons, any electrical device in a conductive (metal) casing must legally have an earth connection. Most audio components have metal housings that must be earthed - the exact same earth connection as those noisy domestic devices are connected to.”
Class II equipment that doesn’t require a mains earth connection can be housed in a metal case/housing/enclosure.
“One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth.”
Electrical current will flow through various paths in inverse proportion to its resistance.
Jason
With respect, I think you're missing the point of grounding boxes!
They do not connect a piece of equipment to the mains protective earth. The boxes are passive, in that they do not plug into the wall.
The grounding cables are only connected to the outer ground (in the case of an RCA phono) and the centre pin is just there to aid the connection. The cables "drain" RFI/EMI/spurious high frequency currents from the ground plane of the circuit boards and these are dealt with (don't know how) in the box and dissipated as heat!
I am a layman, so if anyone technical can explain it better, please chip in!
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 10:45
Ok, so what are you highlighting?
The class II Bit?
Both sections in the quotation marks.
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 10:46
Jason
With respect, I think you're missing the point of grounding boxes!
They do not connect a piece of equipment to the mains protective earth. The boxes are passive, in that they do not plug into the wall.
The grounding cables are only connected to the outer ground (in the case of an RCA phono) and the centre pin is just there to aid the connection. The cables "drain" RFI/EMI/spurious high frequency currents from the ground plane of the circuit boards and these are dealt with (don't know how) in the box and dissipated as heat!
I am a layman, so if anyone technical can explain it better, please chip in!Hence my confusion
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 10:59
Jason
With respect, I think you're missing the point of grounding boxes!
They do not connect a piece of equipment to the mains protective earth. The boxes are passive, in that they do not plug into the wall.
The grounding cables are only connected to the outer ground (in the case of an RCA phono) and the centre pin is just there to aid the connection. The cables "drain" RFI/EMI/spurious high frequency currents from the ground plane of the circuit boards and these are dealt with (don't know how) in the box and dissipated as heat!
I am a layman, so if anyone technical can explain it better, please chip in!
I am not missing the point, I pointed out some inaccuracies in the CAD link. Some ground boxes are designed to connect to mains earth, the RTZ is not one of these designs.
I cannot work out how these grounding boxes work as it is just a single conductor (apparently if multiple cables are used they are still separate as they have no shared connection internally). If they are used to drain these “RFI/EMI/spurious high frequency currents” then surely there should be a return path?
As we have some EE’s & HiFi designers/manufacturers here perhaps they could point out other uses where just a single conductor is used in isolation in electrical/electronic design.
Duckworp
09-02-2019, 11:00
Very well written article, explaining the theory behind why these ground boxes are needed.
I was put off the author by the inclusion of 'pace rhythm and timing' as that expression is one of my bete noire's, but that is a different discussion.
Apart from saying the RF energy is converted to heat it doesn't really say how they work though.
Yes the article is good. The CAD grounding boxes are extraordinary in the effect they have, and their DAC is one of the finest I have heard so the designer clearly knows what he is doing. The fact he is an electronics engineer by training and trade would indicate that too. And the point he makes about the difference between using the box for grounding the signal ground or the mains Earth is important as to do both you need a box for each. I messed around with some of the CAD GC boxes and I definitely get separate improvements for attaching a box to the CD player's spare RCA input, and a further box to the mains earth via the earth connection on the distribution block. But if you try and do both on the one grounding box (signal ground and mains earth) the effect is negated, and the sound is actually worse. The article explains why that happens which is interesting.
The effect on the music for the signal ground using a CAD GC1 I found as providing more coherence and space to the music, more depth. Adding a second GC1 and daisy chaining it made this even more effective.
Adding a GC3 to the mains earth connection on the distribution block and attaching a cable each to the case of the amp and CD player was different: this improved what I would define as the structure of the music, the timing of it. It was interesting how the effect was so different to the signal grounding, but equally impressive.
But as mentioned, running signal and mains earth grounding through the same box didn’t work.
For those of you with a grounding box I’d say it is worth demoing the CAD method of using a second separate one on the mains earth via a link to the earth socket on a distribution box. If there is no earth socket on that device, or you plug your components directly into the wall, CAD actually make a cable with a plug on one end which is designed to run from an unused electrical socket next to one you use for your devices. I guess the plug only connects to the grounding pin. Before I got a distribution box this was how I demoed the GC3 linking to mains earth, and the effects were as substantial as using the input on the distribution block.
willbewill
09-02-2019, 12:01
A glowing review from Paul Rigby
https://theaudiophileman.com/cad-ground-control-review/
AJSki2fly
09-02-2019, 12:24
A glowing review from Paul Rigby
https://theaudiophileman.com/cad-ground-control-review/
An interesting review.
A glowing review from Paul Rigby
https://theaudiophileman.com/cad-ground-control-review/
Yes an interesting read for sure.
And he awards it 10 out of 10! That’s some pretty high praise.
So, after being beat over the head with the idea that 24 bit recordings cannot make a difference, no human can hear the high frequencies, etc, etc, (ad nasium), now we are being told that noise in the megahertz (and even gigahertz) is being heard from all sources?
Personally I don’t doubt it, but we can’t have it both ways, we can’t say humans can’t hear the improvements at 24K but we can hear a difference at 1M, one side or the other must concede.
My cable TV and internet run in the same wire, and one has no effect on the other. Turning off the internet does not improve picture quality. So, how are frequencies in the megahertz having an effect on frequencies from 20 to 20KHz.?
We live in a sea of high frequency noise, so many radio signals all around us at all times, from old AM stations to cell phones and remote control devices, surely the conductive parts of our own bodies are humming with noise at these frequencies, how is it possible to drain them off? If we hold onto a ground wire while listening will it improve SQ?
I have no doubt these things work, but how they work I do not believe is fully understood, there has to be more going on here than draining ultra high frequencies. These high frequencies are 50 times higher than the audio band, their lowest point is a mile away from the highest frequency we are concerned with, so how are they messing up these much, much lower frequencies? Our speakers cannot even respond to frequencies higher than 22KHz, so how is it reaching our ears? There has to be more to it than they are offering.
Russell
Yes an interesting read for sure.
And he awards it 10 out of 10! That’s some pretty high praise.
So, after being beat over the head with the idea that 24 bit recordings cannot make a difference, no human can hear the high frequencies, etc, etc, (ad nasium), now we are being told that noise in the megahertz (and even gigahertz) is being heard from all sources?
Personally I don’t doubt it, but we can’t have it both ways, we can’t say humans can’t hear the improvements at 24K but we can hear a difference at 1M, one side or the other must concede.
ll
No, I think that the way they manifest themselves is in intermodulation distortion. Obviously we can't hear 5 Megahz. That would be an uncomfortable world.
An interesting review.
Interesting option at a 10th of the price https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/
Interesting option at a 10th of the price https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/
Pros - 10th of the price
Cons - you need a garden
and be prepared to run a cable all the way to it... not many would im guessing
Would not seem to be the same thing as the boxes anyway since even PR says the effect was subtle whereas testimony for the boxes says it is obvious.
willbewill
09-02-2019, 15:12
Interesting option at a 10th of the price https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/
http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Ground-Master-PDF.pdf
Interesting option at a 10th of the price https://theaudiophileman.com/ground-master-puritan-review/
Are there any safety issues with providing a 2nd route to earth? I think that's what the box takes care of or at least I see you don't disconnected the mains earth.
Discopants
09-02-2019, 15:45
http://www.data-connect.com/Patton_570_580.htm
Ive just used one of these to galvanically isolate my hifi network from the modem and in power extenders and the sound quality improvements are significant. Comparable to some of benefits described by people using grounding solutions potentially.
i have essentially eliminated a ground loop in the communication network.
My soundstage is wider, taller and most noticeably much deeper. Music is also more relaxed , open and natural sounding.
I borrowed this from a friend and I grounded the strap to my power hub earth point with 1m of 5 strand solid silver litz that i initially bought for a DIY entreq style ground box.
willbewill
09-02-2019, 15:53
Are there any safety issues with providing a 2nd route to earth? I think that's what the box takes care of or at least I see you don't disconnected the mains earth.
Yes the box takes care of it, would be dangerous and illegal otherwise, details are in the pdf I linked to
Pros - 10th of the price
Cons - you need a garden
Lol... I've had something similar for YEARS! Old hat, guys... And I've got 5 x 6ft copper earth rods, plunged about 10ft into the ground, but crucially, not vertically, horizontally, to substantially increase surface area [and the effectiveness of the earth], all submerged in conductive concrete!:eyebrows:
And yes, it was BIG hole (now long since covered with grass)!!:eek::D
Marco [when he does a job, he does it right].
P.S Only the lower orders don't have a garden;)
Did it make an audible difference Sir Marco?
Snoopdog
09-02-2019, 18:18
I'm guessing that the Puritan box reviewed by Paul Rigby is similar in design and execution to Russ Andrews (Ben Duncan designed) RF Router.
https://www.russandrews.com/the-rf-router-mk-2/#reviews
I purchased one of these a few years ago, when RA first introduced them and installed a chunky 4' copper spike (courtesy of Tool Station) into the ground outside of my house. I purchased some of RA's Kimber woven cable to connect spike through the house wall, to a termination on the inside of my lounge. A further length of RA's woven cable connects to the RF Router (which is essential to stay within the latest IEE regulations) and I have two further cables attached to my hifi system. One length connects to the ground connector on my Aletheia PSU2 (vertex AQ) balanced power supply. The other cable from the RF Router is connected to the ground connector on my Melco server/digital music library.
Over the past couple of days I have experimented connecting the Entreq Silver Tellus ground box (which has been loaned to me), firstly to just the Melco server (with nothing else connected to the Entreq box. I felt that there was a subtle, but not substantial improvement in sound quality.
Next, I connected the Enter Silver Tellus just to the ground connector on the balanced power supply/mains distribution box.
This was a different story and IMHO a retrograde step in system sound quality.
Reconnecting the Aletheia PSU2 ground connector to the Russ Andrews RF Router, restored the system performance.
Tony from Coherent Systems visited today with the CR range of ground connecting cables I had ordered with my purchase of the RTZ3 ground box.
Connecting first the BD cable to the RCA digital output of my CD transport, upped the listening pleasure and this was further enhanced by the other six cables being connected in pairs, firstly the LR vacant XLR analogue outputs on the DAC, followed by the two digital SPDIF inputs to tie these two ground planes together on the DAC.
The final pair of CR cables were connected to a pair of vacant LR inputs on my preamp.
The result - A substantial improvement in imaging, presence, palpability and detail retrieval from the system.
Did it make an audible difference Sir Marco?
Lol... Erm, just a tad! Probably one of the single biggest differences I've ever made to my system. It's all about lowering impedance and reducing noise, as far as possible!
The good thing too, is that I can connect and disconnect the dedicated earth, just behind my system, at the point where it meets the CU, so can easily demonstrate the difference it makes to anyone visiting for a music sesh:)
Marco.
Lol... Erm, just a tad! Probably one of the single biggest differences I've ever made to my system. It's all about lowering impedance and reducing noise, as far as possible!
The good thing too, is that I can connect and disconnect the dedicated earth, just behind my system, at the point where it meets the CU, so can easily demonstrate the difference it makes to anyone visiting for a music sesh:)
Marco.Cool. Good to hear.
I'll take your post as an open invite for me to come over and have a listen whilst being fed, watered and sipping your finest claret (grapes grown on the correct side of the river BTW). Lol.
§
Anytime, old chap. Just let me know when, and I'll have the butler collect you at the station:cool:
Marco.
Lol... I've had something similar for YEARS! Old hat, guys... And I've got 5 x 6ft copper earth rods, plunged about 10ft into the ground, but crucially, not vertically, horizontally, to substantially increase surface area [and the effectiveness of the earth], all submerged in conductive concrete!:eyebrows:
And yes, it was BIG hole (now long since covered with grass)!!:eek::D
Marco [when he does a job, he does it right].
P.S Only the lower orders don't have a garden;)
Surely if they are horizontal or vertical, the surface area will be the same? ;)
P.S. Only the lower orders don’t have a garden - of at least an acre. :ner:
Nope, if you lie them down on the ground horizontally (flat), and star-earth them together that way, then cover the whole area with conductive concrete, you get a more effective earth than simply ramming rods down lengthwise into the ground. Trust me, I've tested (and even measured) it both ways! Well, the electrician did...:)
That's why in professional installations, they use what's called an earth lattice mat: https://churchillsc.co.uk/earth-mat-lattice-copper
From link above: "Lattice copper earth plates are usually used in situations where its very difficult to knock earth rods into the ground. The plates are usually placed a meter in the ground and because of the surface area will usually generate good readings".
I've done a similar thing with rods, creating a square, and with the final rod running diagonally from corner to corner:cool:
I should've really used another one and created a cross in the middle, but at the time didn't think of that until it was too late!
Marco.
hmm,conductive concrete,i wonder if thats in the boxes,either dry or in powder form???
https://www.powerandcables.com/marconite-earthing/
willbewill
09-02-2019, 19:24
Now all you need is a good catenary protection system and you're totally covered ;-)
willbewill
09-02-2019, 19:25
hmm,conductive concrete,i wonder if thats in the boxes,either dry or in powder form???
https://www.powerandcables.com/marconite-earthing/That thought struck me as well.
Nope, if you lie them down on the ground horizontally (flat), and star-earth them together that way, then cover the whole area with conductive concrete, you get a more effective earth than simply ramming rods down lengthwise into the ground. Trust me, I've tested (and even measured) it both ways! Well, the electrician did...:)
That's why in professional installations, they use what's called an earth lattice mat: https://churchillsc.co.uk/earth-mat-lattice-copper
From link above: "Lattice copper earth plates are usually used in situations where its very difficult to knock earth rods into the ground. The plates are usually placed a meter in the ground and because of the surface area will usually generate good readings".
I've done a similar thing with rods, creating a square, and with the final rod running diagonally from corner to corner:cool:
I should've really used another one and created a cross in the middle, but at the time didn't think of that until it was too late!
Marco.
Trust me, horizontal or vertical orientation makes no difference to surface area.
Your chosen installation method did that. You could have done the same thing vertically, but it would have been much harder, and more expensive.
hmm,conductive concrete,i wonder if thats in the boxes,either dry or in powder form???
https://www.powerandcables.com/marconite-earthing/
Don't know, Jamie, but I used stuff called 'Conducrete': http://www.ukearthingservices.co.uk/index.php/conducrete
Got it from a mate who works in the industry. Basically, it allows an earthing system to achieve maximum conductivity/least resistance at all times:)
The downside otherwise is that the earth will only function optimally when the soil is wet, which of course means continually keeping it so! Or simply accepting that your system's performance will vary depending on whether or not it rains (as mains impedance lowers with a more conductive earth)..... And yes, I've tested for that too!:doh::o
Marco [major mains geek].
Be very difficult to do it vertically and you do t benefit from the weight of soil atop you get with a horizontal install.
Also at depth your more likely to be in or around the water table
Trust me, horizontal or vertical orientation makes no difference to surface area.
Your chosen installation method did that. You could have done the same thing vertically, but it would have been much harder, and more expensive
Yes that's the point, and what I meant!:)
Marco.
walpurgis
09-02-2019, 19:36
Be very difficult to do it vertically and you do t benefit from the weight of soil atop you get with a horizontal install.
Also at depth your more likely to be in or around the water table
Yes. There's something reassuring about a good burial! :D
Be very difficult to do it vertically and you do t benefit from the weight of soil atop you get with a horizontal install.
Also at depth your more likely to be in or around the water table
Yes, that's also a good point. If I did it again, I'd use one of those copper earth latices I linked to above:)
Marco.
Yes. There's something reassuring about a good burial! :D
Tee-hee... The 'added minerals' from a rotting cadaver do wonders for ensuring maximum conductivity!!:eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
09-02-2019, 19:41
Tee-hee... The 'added minerals' from a rotting cadaver do wonders for ensuring maximum conductivity!!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Copper band round the ankle before interment. Job done! ;)
Snoopdog
09-02-2019, 19:43
The "Rockwell Incavulator" would appear to describe the phenomena and is definitely the direction in which we should all be heading! :)
https://www.facebook.com/ozzymanreviews/videos/1282757758426755/?fref=mentions&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAZxE3Qnh739fqKAS85kF43WFW0oK_L QuE0KLrDSAXZMOP0_u2KlWucuDRY-YuB-GXeCIioUWnBUBmxQ_97sR3kK40yeA7SZVjQGhLmOKi_Dvf3N9L lGxNw-r_o6eiLckyGQRPWYRVDjWWeJc2M4MtWvdAb6rHH9LudPVqktes q--nDbpea4xvNe_H43MKrZLmdi7mXSQehyXB1ir61DgayvpWddoZq Ib5T1RDtg7L42O9DzCsMRM5KFIB8UijbLKgPPAM8LtwKt4GEt9 6Judpx4VaGh3-RkulzfRoDYdDq2_9fF5CjN8S7yrkExyS6Zx4mRyAZSWME3Pgg9 5ejLED0LmtZhv4aF0v0wBI&__tn__=K-R
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 19:44
The downside otherwise is that the earth will only function optimally when the soil is wet, which of course means continually keeping it so! Or simply accepting that your system's performance will vary depending on whether or not it rains (as mains impedance lowers with a more conductive earth)..... And yes, I've tested for that too!:doh::o
Marco [major mains geek].
I think your confusing Earth Fault Loop Impedance with mains impedance here.
Hi Jason,
You tell me, mate... When it rains and the soil is at its wettest, the impedance on the dedicated mains radial for my system [which the earth is connected to] goes down (as measured by my electrician), and conversely goes up when the soil is dry - and my system noticeably sounds best when the soil is soaking wet.
So what's happening there then?:)
Marco.
Firebottle
09-02-2019, 19:55
If they are used to drain these “RFI/EMI/spurious high frequency currents” then surely there should be a return path?
The return path is the 'ether' to use an old fashioned word.
Imagine how radio communications work on an aircraft for example. No 'return path' there.
The "Rockwell Incavulator" would appear to describe the phenomena and is definitely the direction in which we should all be heading! :)
https://www.facebook.com/ozzymanreviews/videos/1282757758426755/?fref=mentions&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAZxE3Qnh739fqKAS85kF43WFW0oK_L QuE0KLrDSAXZMOP0_u2KlWucuDRY-YuB-GXeCIioUWnBUBmxQ_97sR3kK40yeA7SZVjQGhLmOKi_Dvf3N9L lGxNw-r_o6eiLckyGQRPWYRVDjWWeJc2M4MtWvdAb6rHH9LudPVqktes q--nDbpea4xvNe_H43MKrZLmdi7mXSQehyXB1ir61DgayvpWddoZq Ib5T1RDtg7L42O9DzCsMRM5KFIB8UijbLKgPPAM8LtwKt4GEt9 6Judpx4VaGh3-RkulzfRoDYdDq2_9fF5CjN8S7yrkExyS6Zx4mRyAZSWME3Pgg9 5ejLED0LmtZhv4aF0v0wBI&__tn__=K-R
Don't use Facebook, so that link's of no use;)
Marco.
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 20:02
Hi Jason,
You tell me, mate... When it rains and the soil is at its wettest, the impedance on the dedicated mains radial for my system goes down (as measured by my electrician), and conversely goes up when the soil is dry - and my system noticeably sounds best when the soil is soaking wet.
So what's happening there then?:)
Marco.
Hi Marco, your electrician will be measuring the earth fault loop impedance, on a TT earthing system (where safety earth is provided by a ground rod) the better the soil conductivity the lower the impedance. This test is conducted between Live and Earth. Mains impedance is tested between Live and Neutral, this will not be altered by soil conditions.
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 20:08
The return path is the 'ether' to use an old fashioned word.
Imagine how radio communications work on an aircraft for example. No 'return path' there.
Hi Alan, thanks for the reply.
So are we back to thinking that these grounding boxes and cables are acting as an aerial/antenna? But somehow instead of feeding the “signal” into the Hifi there is something in the box providing a better path?
Bigman80
09-02-2019, 20:10
hmm,conductive concrete,i wonder if thats in the boxes,either dry or in powder form???
https://www.powerandcables.com/marconite-earthing/How many bags can we order lol
Hi Marco, your electrician will be measuring the earth fault loop impedance, on a TT earthing system (where safety earth is provided by a ground rod) the better the soil conductivity the lower the impedance. This test is conducted between Live and Earth. Mains impedance is tested between Live and Neutral, this will not be altered by soil conditions.
Ok, no worries. Thanks for the correction! All I know, is that *however achieved* lower impedance ALWAYS results in better sound quality:cool:
Marco.
willbewill
09-02-2019, 20:22
How many bags can we order lol
Cat litter (bentonite) works as well, so just need a copper coil in a litter tray and the helpful kitty keeps the impedance low by using it.
I used to have an additional earth in my previous house where the listening room was right next to the garden. I keep meaning to fit one at this house but the listening room is two floors up and I just haven’t got round to it.
Cat litter (bentonite) works as well, so just need a copper coil in a litter tray and the helpful kitty keeps the impedance low by using it.
Ha - I used to 'train' my cats to piss on the earth rods, for that very purpose!;)
The conductivity of their piss, also used to vary, depending on the type of food that they were fed... Felix was usually best:D
Marco.
willbewill
09-02-2019, 20:43
And the ammonia helps clear the wax in your ears :eyebrows:
I used to have an additional earth in my previous house where the listening room was right next to the garden. I keep meaning to fit one at this house but the listening room is two floors up and I just haven’t got round to it.
You should make the effort, Mark, and do it [but do it *right* and don't cut any corners, as I know you tend to anyway with your projects]. In conjunction with a dedicated mains radial, it just cleans everything up nicely and really allows your system to release its full sonic potential:)
Marco.
Yeah, I had a dedicated mains radial fitted when I moved in. I feel I should do it myself but I can’t be doing with crawling in roof spaces these days.
Some food for thought think of an RF amplifier in reverse, not a transmitter but the exact opposite, an ultra low impedance sink, RF frequencies are a law unto them themselves normal service does not apply these higher bandwidths. Also think of very low signal levels both current and voltage.
blackmetalboon
09-02-2019, 22:32
Some food for thought think of an RF amplifier in reverse, not a transmitter but the exact opposite, an ultra low impedance sink, RF frequencies are a law unto them themselves normal service does not apply these higher bandwidths. Also think of very low signal levels both current and voltage.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that high frequency currents, assuming that these are the ones we are trying to minimise, follow the lowest inductive(?) impedance path.
I’m a little hazy on this (and might be barking up the wrong tree) as it’s been a fair few years since I had any dealings with this!
Hi Jason
RF as Alan mentioned is very pervasive and particulaly elusive if you are trying to locate / pin down a particular issue you know is relevant.
Snoopdog
10-02-2019, 12:08
What's in the box?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ILnWpi8XY&list=RDpbsmHnsjJZk&index=2
MikeMusic
10-02-2019, 12:32
http://www.data-connect.com/Patton_570_580.htm
Ive just used one of these to galvanically isolate my hifi network from the modem and in power extenders and the sound quality improvements are significant. Comparable to some of benefits described by people using grounding solutions potentially.
i have essentially eliminated a ground loop in the communication network.
My soundstage is wider, taller and most noticeably much deeper. Music is also more relaxed , open and natural sounding.
I borrowed this from a friend and I grounded the strap to my power hub earth point with 1m of 5 strand solid silver litz that i initially bought for a DIY entreq style ground box.
Good stuff Martin
Seems to be US centric
How much did you pay and where did you get it ?
Do you have any other mains devices around like ferrite chokes, filters or other ?
willbewill
10-02-2019, 13:56
What's in the box?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ILnWpi8XY&list=RDpbsmHnsjJZk&index=2Hahaha
walpurgis
10-02-2019, 14:13
What's in the box?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ILnWpi8XY&list=RDpbsmHnsjJZk&index=2
Yes. The original principles were laid down by Professor Stanley Unwin in the late nineteen fiftes. Every subsequent interpretation has been based on his model.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P1EVuiFEfs
good old Stan. He was in one of the Carry ons
Discopants
10-02-2019, 15:40
Mike
The network transformer is likely to be 10 years old , they have been sat in a control systems engineers drawer for 10 years at work. The model i have is the 570 but i see some 580 ones on US ebay with starting from 10$.
The guy on the AV forum who put me on to this linked this offering from RS https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/signal-conditioning/7511392/
Discopants
10-02-2019, 15:50
I didnt want to splash out £150 on the off chance , however with the results ive got I absolutely would spend 150 on this, its probably raised my systems performance by at least 10%
I dont run any ferrites , i picked up an old Russ Andrews ultrapurifier about 6 months ago that sits in the same power strip, passively.
I have a few upgraded power cables in the system, all picked up second hand , a couple of which I can see components in the plugs but ive no idea what they are or if they even still work.
Trust me, horizontal or vertical orientation makes no difference to surface area.
Your chosen installation method did that. You could have done the same thing vertically, but it would have been much harder, and more expensive.
Obviously there will no change to the contact surface area between the rods and the soil, but the efficacy of the earthing system will depend on orientation, depending of the variation of soil conductivity with depth. It cannot be assumed that the conductivity will automatically increase with depth: it depends on the composition of the soil, whether there is a rock layer under a shallow depth of soil, etc.
I worked in radar and microwave research for thirty years and can tell you that there are a whole variety of earth electrode geometries and configurations that can be used depending on the environment where the system will be installed, and each have different and frequency dependant complex impedance. At ultra high frequencies often the inductance of the earth system is more important than the resistance.
Discopants
10-02-2019, 16:16
https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/analog/dirty_ac_power_where_to_lay_the_blame_for_noise_pr oblems/
This article was useful in explaining ground loop noise and other bits.
Snoopdog
10-02-2019, 16:31
Nope, if you lie them down on the ground horizontally (flat), and star-earth them together that way, then cover the whole area with conductive concrete, you get a more effective earth than simply ramming rods down lengthwise into the ground. Trust me, I've tested (and even measured) it both ways! Well, the electrician did...:)
That's why in professional installations, they use what's called an earth lattice mat: https://churchillsc.co.uk/earth-mat-lattice-copper
From link above: "Lattice copper earth plates are usually used in situations where its very difficult to knock earth rods into the ground. The plates are usually placed a meter in the ground and because of the surface area will usually generate good readings".
I've done a similar thing with rods, creating a square, and with the final rod running diagonally from corner to corner:cool:
I should've really used another one and created a cross in the middle, but at the time didn't think of that until it was too late!
Marco.
Ahh! Yes. I recall when Marco excavated the garden around his house to accommodate his modest grounding scheme! ;)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7891/46998140322_afa8be475f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eB4KJb)MAC29_PHOTO ESSAY_NAIL HOUSES (https://flic.kr/p/2eB4KJb) by Steve Coward (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152650984@N05/), on Flickr
MikeMusic
10-02-2019, 16:34
Mike
The network transformer is likely to be 10 years old , they have been sat in a control systems engineers drawer for 10 years at work. The model i have is the 570 but i see some 580 ones on US ebay with starting from 10$.
The guy on the AV forum who put me on to this linked this offering from RS https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/signal-conditioning/7511392/
Thanks Martin
Will keep an eye out for one
Ethernet is inherently isolated. If you need greater surge protection say 5kv+ as in medical instruments then an isolator will provide it. The issues arise when you start using STP cable which will connect the ground planes of both end point devices together.
Ahh! Yes. I recall when Marco excavated the garden around his house to accommodate his modest grounding scheme! ;)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7891/46998140322_afa8be475f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2eB4KJb)MAC29_PHOTO ESSAY_NAIL HOUSES (https://flic.kr/p/2eB4KJb) by Steve Coward (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152650984@N05/), on Flickr
You may laugh but the size of the 'earth mat' system used in over-the-horizon radars (which operate in the 10s of MHz) are of that size, if not larger.
63 pages, and not many people are more aware of how these things work. :ner:
63 pages, and not many people are more aware of how these things work. :ner:
True, but some very useful and informative links have been discovered.
These 'grounding boxes' just didn't happen by accident. Their designers must have some idea of how and why they work - or was it a case of give enough designers enough bits of metal, gravel, broken glass, crystals, and someone will come up with a grounding box?
I worked in a laboratory where microwave absorbing materials were developed. They were, IMO, developed using 5% theory and 95% trial and error!
At the prices they sell for, there is enough room for trial and error. :eyebrows:
ianlenco
10-02-2019, 19:05
The chat about perception reminded me of an incident that took place when I was a student doing night watchman duties in a large metal plating factory. I'd got used to the place clunking away as the vats cooled over several nights but on this particular night I was walking along the central path through the warehouse when i got a very peculiar feeling to the extent that the hairs on the back of my neck stood on end. Wondering what was going on I suddenly saw a barn owl fly over my head! I'm pretty sure I can't have heard it approaching but I did sort of sense it coming. I don't actually think this is relevant to listening to music :) but I do believe we can sense stuff other than the obvious. I was at a meeting on Saturday where Alan plugged in his box of tricks. Although I pulled his leg a bit the first time he switched it in and out I had a "feeling" something had changed. With subsequent swaps I couldn't hear a difference - go figure :scratch:
Discopants
10-02-2019, 19:15
Ethernet is inherently isolated. If you need greater surge protection say 5kv+ as in medical instruments then an isolator will provide it. The issues arise when you start using STP cable which will connect the ground planes of both end point devices together.
Neal im not qualified remotely in electronics however;
Before i put this transformer in, a few weeks ago I did an experiment as i thought that my through the power network extender was was potentially an issue holding back my system. My network is router in the hall, network in power extender in the hall, network power extender in the hifi wall socket, netgear 5 port switch feeding apple Tv and TDAI3400.
My hifi network cables are chord c stream which is shielded per conducter and a sheat shield, but the router end is UTP. I took a 15m UTP cat 6 cable and ran it directly from my router to the Network switch. Played 4 tracks i knew well, then took it out and played them again with the in power network extender. Sat with my wife i thought i heard a very small improvement to the high end with cymbals etc. My wife said i was imagining it and it certainly wasnt enough to motivate me to put in a direct hard line.
Now with the transformer in between the hifi in power extender and the network switch seriously big improvements. I still have netgear switch on an smps but i keep it on a seperate power strip to the rest of the hifi with the cd player that i dont really use. The only other thing i changed was re organising the cables in the netgear so i used 1 in 3 apple tv and 5 tdai. Previously i was using 123.
I was at a meeting on Saturday where Alan plugged in his box of tricks. Although I pulled his leg a bit the first time he switched it in and out I had a "feeling" something had changed. With subsequent swaps I couldn't hear a difference - go figure :scratch:
So not the night and day difference that some have reported?
Discopants
10-02-2019, 19:24
63 pages, and not many people are more aware of how these things work. :ner:
We might not know how they work but they do work in the right circumstances and they do make the music significantly better. Whats useful is getting an understanding of how this noise enters our systems in the first place and how we can target root causes. Some of these fixes are much more affordable to all
So, build a faraday cage around your HiFi and you don’t need a grounding box?
walpurgis
10-02-2019, 19:40
So, build a faraday cage around your HiFi and you don’t need a grounding box?
Ha. I thought about saying that myself.
ianlenco
10-02-2019, 20:42
So not the night and day difference that some have reported?
For me no, but then I may not be tuned in to this sort of thing. I start sceptic and maybe this influences my judgement. A proper blind test would be interesting.
Well that's a turn up for the books. I was getting the impression that the differences were so obvious that it wasn't worth the bother of doing a blind test. Now you've got to be 'tuned in' to hear them?
Puts a different perspective on things I think.
Neal im not qualified remotely in electronics however;
Before i put this transformer in, a few weeks ago I did an experiment as i thought that my through the power network extender was was potentially an issue holding back my system. My network is router in the hall, network in power extender in the hall, network power extender in the hifi wall socket, netgear 5 port switch feeding apple Tv and TDAI3400.
My hifi network cables are chord c stream which is shielded per conducter and a sheat shield, but the router end is UTP. I took a 15m UTP cat 6 cable and ran it directly from my router to the Network switch. Played 4 tracks i knew well, then took it out and played them again with the in power network extender. Sat with my wife i thought i heard a very small improvement to the high end with cymbals etc. My wife said i was imagining it and it certainly wasnt enough to motivate me to put in a direct hard line.
Now with the transformer in between the hifi in power extender and the network switch seriously big improvements. I still have netgear switch on an smps but i keep it on a seperate power strip to the rest of the hifi with the cd player that i dont really use. The only other thing i changed was re organising the cables in the netgear so i used 1 in 3 apple tv and 5 tdai. Previously i was using 123.
Hi Martin, if I’ve read your post correctly, it looks like the isolator has removed the ground connection of the cord (overall shield) between the powerline extender and the switch. If you have a spare UTP cable try that instead of the cord cable. Not saying it would improve things but maybe also try a UTP cable instead of the isolator and also a UTP from the switch to your HiFi.
ianlenco
11-02-2019, 09:13
Well that's a turn up for the books. I was getting the impression that the differences were so obvious that it wasn't worth the bother of doing a blind test. Now you've got to be 'tuned in' to hear them?
Puts a different perspective on things I think.
Put it this way, some in the room heard no difference, others heard an obvious difference and some weren't sure.
Put it this way, some in the room heard no difference, others heard an obvious difference and some weren't sure.
I bet they all had differently-shaped ears.
If I was in your position I would be asking the very same questions. There were no flaws. Let me try to put some description to it, though very simplified to show differences in scale.
The system sounded very good to start with, as you might expect with the equipment used. Lets say the image was between and behind the speakers.
Step 1 gave a 50% increase in image width and depth.
Step 2 gave another 50% increase in image width and depth. Plus I was thinking 'where has all that bass come from?' It was there in the first place but now sounds that much more tangible. I was told this is a common reaction.
Step 3 and you are suddenly in the Albert Hall. It's not that the players have suddenly moved it is just that the ambience is there.
This is simplified, the snap, the attack and decay, the sheer fluidity of the performance just jumps out at you.
Once heard it is difficult to believe that it all comes from Red Book.
Put it this way, some in the room heard no difference, others heard an obvious difference and some weren't sure.
hmmm something stinks to me :lol:
Firebottle
11-02-2019, 09:42
hmmm something stinks to me :lol:
Perspective: The improvements are dependent on the system, you wouldn't expect to hear a difference on an Aiwa separates system. OK that is a bit flippant but the greatest benefit is heard on a balanced system, by that is meant one that has 'equal' performance to all the individual parts.
It's no good putting a top of the range amp into an otherwise average system.
Secondly we all hear differently. Experience and better kit will open up your perception of changes. Don't you find that once you have an improvement to your sound you can never go back?
It is the same with everything in HiFi.
Some people hear a difference, and some don’t.
If you do, buy it.... If you don’t spend your money elsewhere.
folk here things i dont thats for sure. but im not good at it ... i here what i hear. you here what you hear. expectation of a huge difference where only a small one really exists can set people back i guess
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 15:27
Just got back from Alan's (Firebottle) after hearing the Coherent RTZ grounding box.* ***Edit: No BMU, DC Blocker or ferrites are in use as far as i know***
Unfortunately, it does work lol.*
I tested it blind, and I got it right every time. About 4 goes of A/B.*
Night and day? No. obvious? Well I wasn't guessing so I have to say.....yes.*
The effect was an improvement in resolution. Without the RTZ in, there was a loss of leading edge and clarity. Almost smudged.*
With it in, it sharpened the sound and created a more definite soundstage. Everything felt a fair bit more defined.*
Was it enough for me to consider buying one? No. Not yet at least. I need to hear it here, in my own system and there needs to be a few more things happening first. Let me explain,
Alan's invested £1k+ at a guess, in the RTZ box and cables, which although I now see why, still gives me heart palpitations.*
Alan is highly unlikely to change any aspect of his system so as I said before, what else to you do to get an increase in performance when you have settled on your rig? It makes sense in the context of his future aspirations and his system that this is now part of his system.*
However for me, I'd take that £1k+ and use it towards new speakers or an Ortofon Winfeld.*
What I will say in its favour is that it does improve the entire system rather than just one bit. Digital side is improved on the same scale as the analogue, which disproved my "digital only" theory.*
I'm left rather perplexed at what I've heard Vs the price. Whilst I'm now happy to stand my ground on its effectiveness, I neither understand how it works or whether there is £1k worth of product in the package.*
To me it looks like a £15 Chinese aluminium box with fancy terminals on the back, Black Ravioli feet and nothing more. It's hard to see exactly where the price comes from.*
The material inside the box CAN NOT be a new Material, it MUST already exist.
Whatever it is, its heavy and while Tony can keep the materials identity a secret, he'll sell a lot of these boxes.*
This is an accessory for the time when you're as far up the food chain of your equipment as you're likely to go and then you stick one of these in to put the cherry on top.*
Your experience mirrors mine Oli. Not night/day black/white difference but a definite improvement in clarity, focus and sharpness (to borrow terms from photography).
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 15:41
Your experience mirrors mine Oli. Not night/day black/white difference but a definite improvement in clarity, focus and sharpness (to borrow terms from photography).
I rang Tony about a couple of hours ago and he said he was busy with a client - did not realise it was you that he was with. [emoji38]Ha, no Tony wasn't there mate. Just Alan and I.
Yep, I can't dispute the effectiveness of the unit.
Discopants
12-02-2019, 16:04
Neal
Mrs went to bed at 10, then I had a play around but was a bit tired and now I'm unsure of what I'm hearing. I went direct utp to the back of the amp from the router and heard no significant differences so then spent an hour switching cables and putting 1 or 2 transformers in and putting my Netgear cables back to 123 instead of 135 and went to bed thoroughly confused.
Soundstage is now narrower and system has lost a little something but it still sounds better than last week I think. However some tracks I was listening to test the soundstage is totally different. Was getting loads of width to the left on some percussion but now that has moved centre. Bang centre. I did move the amp to cable and undoubtedly moved cables.
Ha, no Tony wasn't there mate. Just Alan and I.
Yep, I can't dispute the effectiveness of the unit.
Ha, I realised my error and edited my post within a minute but you were far to quick for me Oli. I'll just spend a few mins in the naughty corner so I can repent. :lol:
Snoopdog
12-02-2019, 17:01
Just got back from Alan's (Firebottle) after hearing the Coherent RTZ grounding box.*
Unfortunately, it does work lol.*
I tested it blind, and I got it right every time. About 4 goes of A/B.*
Night and day? No. obvious? Well I wasn't guessing so I have to say.....yes.*
The effect was an improvement in resolution. Without the RTZ in, there was a loss of leading edge and clarity. Almost smudged.*
With it in, it sharpened the sound and created a more definite soundstage. Everything felt a fair bit more defined.*
Was it enough for me to consider buying one? No. Not yet at least. I need to hear it here, in my own system and there needs to be a few more things happening first. Let me explain,
Alan's invested £1k+ at a guess, in the RTZ box and cables, which although I now see why, still gives me heart palpitations.*
Alan is highly unlikely to change any aspect of his system so as I said before, what else to you do to get an increase in performance when you have settled on your rig? It makes sense in the context of his future aspirations and his system that this is now part of his system.*
However for me, I'd take that £1k+ and use it towards new speakers or an Ortofon Winfeld.*
What I will say in its favour is that it does improve the entire system rather than just one bit. Digital side is improved on the same scale as the analogue, which disproved my "digital only" theory.*
I'm left rather perplexed at what I've heard Vs the price. Whilst I'm now happy to stand my ground on its effectiveness, I neither understand how it works or whether there is £1k worth of product in the package.*
To me it looks like a £15 Chinese aluminium box with fancy terminals on the back, Black Ravioli feet and nothing more. It's hard to see exactly where the price comes from.*
The material inside the box CAN NOT be a new Material, it MUST already exist.
Whatever it is, its heavy and while Tony can keep the materials identity a secret, he'll sell a lot of these boxes.*
This is an accessory for the time when you're as far up the food chain of your equipment as you're likely to go and then you stick one of these in to put the cherry on top.*
Nice write up Oli
I still have a big smile on my face, following Tony's visit last Saturday, with the Coherent cables I had ordered to go with the RTZ3.
I can sum up the improvement in my system as more palpability, deeper bass, the removal of smearing on fine detail and a greater 3D soundstage!
If this is due to the removal of RFI/EMI and stray small electrical currents on the ground plane, then this is most definitely a very good thing!
It's black, heavy and just sits there, doing it's thing! Wondering just how it works or what's inside the box, doesn't keep me awake at night!
oli,was it heavy enough to go with the conductive concrete theory?:eyebrows:
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 17:19
oli,was it heavy enough to go with the conductive concrete theory?:eyebrows:Yes. Maybe a bit over 1kg. Could certainly have been concrete but not sure how that would collect RF
aluminium metal strips connected by solid bare copper wire,like the picture posted on pfm,fill the box with the conductive concrete perhaps?
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 17:29
aluminium metal strips connected by solid bare copper wire,like the picture posted on pfm,fill the box with the conductive concrete perhaps?
Got a link? I haven't looked over on PFM
the whole thread was deleted after the photo of the entrige (is thats what its called) one cut open was posted
It's black, heavy and just sits there, doing it's thing!
It's Barry White!
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 17:43
the whole thread was deleted after the photo of the entrige (is thats what its called) one cut open was posted
Oh, did anyone save the picture?
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 17:45
the whole thread was deleted after the photo of the entrige (is thats what its called) one cut open was posted
Nothing is gone forever ;D
http://longkft.hu/audioblog/entreq-virtualis-fold-ground-box/
Snoopdog
12-02-2019, 18:00
It's Barry White!
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Snoopdog
12-02-2019, 18:01
Yes. Maybe a bit over 1kg. Could certainly have been concrete but not sure how that would collect RF
Come to think of it, Tony has been on a high-fibre diet recently! ;)
Nothing is gone forever ;D
http://longkft.hu/audioblog/entreq-virtualis-fold-ground-box/
sweet as! the one im talking about is bottom left,off to google translate :D
Nothing is gone forever ;D
http://longkft.hu/audioblog/entreq-virtualis-fold-ground-box/
How are you getting along with your bigbottle grounding boxes Oli? Ready to take orders yet? :lol:
No seriously, have you received the bits yet?
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 18:42
How are you getting along with your bigbottle grounding boxes Oli? Ready to take orders yet? [emoji38]
No seriously, have you received the bits yet?[emoji23][emoji23] Just awaiting the traffo mate. Oh, and the cast to come off my arm lol
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 18:42
sweet as! the one im talking about is bottom left,off to google translate :DLol yup. Not as much information as I'd like but certainly more than I had earlier.
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 18:43
Come to think of it, Tony has been on a high-fibre diet recently! ;)[emoji23][emoji23]
walpurgis
12-02-2019, 18:45
I'm working on developing an ungrounding box. :)
I'm working on developing an ungrounding box. :)
That's easy - just put the grounding box and the associated cables on cable 'lifters'. The secret is to choose the right cable lifters.
Surely there are screws on the box???? If not what are they trying to hide? Conductive concrete may not be far off the mark... Someone crack it open, it's only a grand's worth after all ;-)
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 19:05
Surely there are screws on the box???? If not what are they trying to hide? Conductive concrete may not be far off the mark... Someone crack it open, it's only a grand's worth after all ;-)
Its potted to prevent prying eyes, You would have to destroy it to get in. I'd do it but it aint mine lol
I’ve looked at that conductive concrete,65 quid a pop,bit expensive to just take a potshot
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 19:16
I’ve looked at that conductive concrete,65 quid a pop,bit expensive to just take a potshotHmmmm. That's a pain.
You can get a 25kg bag for £100. Someone could buy one and divvy it up to those interested in making one of these "electrickery" devices (as Catweazle would say)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marconite-pre-mixed-with-concrete/183676094630?hash=item2ac3f2c8a6:g:xQ8AAOxyjxlTL-gQ:rk:1:pf:0
Leeken, where did you find it cheaper?
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 20:16
Isn't it strange that the dry mix of marconite looks almost exactly like the filling in the Entreq unit.
I wonder.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190212/3946f963334f87d8fb8a2bb71c63160f.jpg
sweet as,if it is id just like to say it was ME who first mentioned it :lol:
No takers to open the box....What about a good shake then??
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 20:45
sweet as,if it is id just like to say it was ME who first mentioned it [emoji38]Lmao. Yes you did.
MARCOnite. Really?
It was developed and marketed by the Marconi Company, for use with the foundations of telecom masts and lightning conductors.
MARCOnite. Really?
On tonight's edition of 'You Couldn't Make It Up'....
willbewill
12-02-2019, 21:41
You can get a 25kg bag for £100. Someone could buy one and divvy it up to those interested in making one of these "electrickery" devices (as Catweazle would say)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marconite-pre-mixed-with-concrete/183676094630?hash=item2ac3f2c8a6:g:xQ8AAOxyjxlTL-gQ:rk:1:pf:0
Leeken, where did you find it cheaper?You'll need a safety shirt and tie to handle that Furse stuff.
25 kg bag for £40.
https://www.telkominternational.com/marconite
walpurgis
12-02-2019, 22:03
Conductive graded chippings as shown in the photo won't necessarily produce conductive concrete.
25 kg bag for £40.
https://www.telkominternational.com/marconite
The box material is obviously special stuff. Timber from the Banyan Tree perhaps?
Conductive graded chippings as shown in the photo won't necessarily produce conductive concrete.
According to the marketing 'blurb', raw (dry) Marconite has a resistivity of 0.001 Ohm.m, the Marconite-cement mix produces a concrete with a resistivity of 0.19 Ohm.m .
walpurgis
12-02-2019, 22:29
In concrete, larger aggregate granules tend to be separated by finer particles and obviously whatever medium is the actual cement. That suggests to me that there have to be finer conductive materials in the mix as well as the shown chippings which appeared to be of a particular sized grade.
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 22:30
According to the marketing 'blurb', raw (dry) Marconite has a resistivity of 0.001 Ohm.m, the Marconite-cement mix produces a concrete with a resistivity of 0.19 Ohm.m .Yes, I think I'll have to buy a bag lol
montesquieu
12-02-2019, 23:30
25 kg bag for £40.
https://www.telkominternational.com/marconite
Does it double as cat litter?
willbewill
12-02-2019, 23:31
Does it double as cat litter?No but a bag of bentonite will
walpurgis
12-02-2019, 23:33
No but a bag of bentonite will
I see somebody else has been googling. :)
Bigman80
12-02-2019, 23:36
[emoji23][emoji23]
As a scientist, I am intrigued by the idea of a material that can absorb RFI. I believe this is different from materials that shield against RFI - there are many of those about.
As energy can neither be created nor destroyed the RFI will probably converted to a (small amount) of heat, hence no circuit is required. The RFI absorbing material is merely a sump.
Can we try and capture possibilities here.
My suggestions are graphite and tourmaline chippings or crystals
Bigman80
13-02-2019, 08:10
As a scientist, I am intrigued by the idea of a material that can absorb RFI.
Can we try and capture possibilities here.
My suggestions are graphite and tourmaline chippings or crystalsThat's the material used in the Chinese boxes.
ianlenco
13-02-2019, 11:57
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TAOtTAO-Tourmaline-Tumbled-Crushed-Decoration/dp/B07H2S5P51/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550058888&sr=8-1&keywords=tourmaline+chips
If it doesn't work as a grounding box you can always use it for other purposes:
Carrying a Black Tourmaline keeps one's auric field clear of imbalances, promoting a positive attitude regardless of the circumstances stemming from negative influences
Maybe it would get rid of scepticism :)
There's a Nigerian witch doctor down the road from me, might get him to come in and bless my system, see if I can detect an improvement.
I bet that's one tweak Mike Music hasn't tried yet :D
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TAOtTAO-Tourmaline-Tumbled-Crushed-Decoration/dp/B07H2S5P51/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550058888&sr=8-1&keywords=tourmaline+chips
If it doesn't work as a grounding box you can always use it for other purposes:
Maybe it would get rid of scepticism :)
the wife carried tourmaline with here all the time
willbewill
13-02-2019, 12:59
Here's what I use
https://cdn3.volusion.com/rgdka.aczkj/v/vspfiles/photos/Pyramid_copper-2T.jpg?1526820234
As a scientist, I am intrigued by the idea of a material that can absorb RFI. I believe this is different from materials that shield against RFI - there are many of those about.
As energy can neither be created nor destroyed the RFI will probably converted to a (small amount) of heat, hence no circuit is required. The RFI absorbing material is merely a sump.
Can we try and capture possibilities here.
My suggestions are graphite and tourmaline chippings or crystals
Yes - obviously the electromagnetic energy is being converted into heat within the absorbing material. To do this the absorbing material needs to have a poor loss tangent. Many RF absorbing materials use carbon loaded foam rubber. RF anechoic chambers are lined with this material and accidents can happen - some parts may absorb so much energy they catch fire!
However one still needs to match the absorbing material to the radiation - that is a more complicated matter if you want the absorption to be efficient, and then it will only work over a limited range of frequencies.
Where I worked, one department made, inter alia microwave absorbing rubber sheets which used a 'carbonyl iron' matrix in silicone rubber.
walpurgis
13-02-2019, 14:16
Maybe it would get rid of scepticism :)
I've always taken scepticism with a pinch of salt!
I already have a grounds box.
It is one of these, but I bought it in Black (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grindenstein-knock-off-container-coffee-grounds/dp/B000WHC89M).
It makes Sunday morning listening much more enjoyable.
montesquieu
13-02-2019, 17:35
I already have a grounds box.
It is one of these, but I bought it in Black (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grindenstein-knock-off-container-coffee-grounds/dp/B000WHC89M).
It makes Sunday morning listening much more enjoyable.
If that's the price of a knock-off I wonder what the genuine one costs :D
If that's the price of a knock-off I wonder what the genuine one costs :D
BOOM, Tish....
Yes. Maybe a bit over 1kg. Could certainly have been concrete but not sure how that would collect RF
Hello Oli
Just read your feedback on the unit, thank you for putting your words on the forum appreciate that :)
I would also agree with you, it is not a sticking plaster for a system that needs to brought back into balance, which I have always suggested it works best on an even handed system.
For you personally I would maybe look at speakers to give a good all round improvement to the system imho.
Will clear up a few points for you chaps, absolutely no concrete are in the RTZ boxes what so ever of ANY description.
The weight of the RTZ1 is 2.7Kg, the material inside is *new* (Clarifying:- the constituent formulation of said material is new, in that it does not appear in any patent search in relation to the effect it generates or any other effect that could be considered to be related to how the box functions. That may or may not exist within the formulated material itself)
The boxes are fabricated in the UK Oli, however I understand your suggestion relating to them.
The binding posts are stripped down, ultrasonically cleaned, the pickled in acid to remove the stock plating, again thoroughly cleaned, then plated with our own material we fabricate the cables from. Cryogenically treated before assembly, then the whole unit is cryo'd after manufacturer, lastly the O.E. BR pads are fitted
Bigman80
14-02-2019, 16:08
Hello Oli
Just read your feedback on the unit, thank you for putting your words on the forum appreciate that :)
I would also agree with you, it is not a sticking plaster for a system that needs to brought back into balance, which I have always suggested it works best on an even handed system.
For you personally I would maybe look at speakers to give a good all round improvement to the system imho.
Will clear up a few points for you chaps, absolutely no concrete are in the RTZ boxes what so ever of ANY description.
The weight of the RTZ1 is 2.7Kg, the material inside is *new* (Clarifying:- the constituent formulation of said material is new, in that it does not appear in any patent search in relation to the effect it generates or any other effect that could be considered to be related to how the box functions. That may or may not exist within the formulated material itself)
The boxes are fabricated in the UK Oli, however I understand your suggestion relating to them.
The binding posts are stripped down, ultrasonically cleaned, the pickled in acid to remove the stock plating, again thoroughly cleaned, then plated with our own material we fabricate the cables from. Cryogenically treated before assembly, then the whole unit is cryo'd after manufacturer, lastly the O.E. BR pads are fittedHi Tony,
I wasn't aware that the posts were stripped and replated.
I think there's a lot of us who aren't "against' your RTZ working but the mystique coupled with the price is going to cause some "curiosity" about VFM. It's up to the prospective customer to decide where that £1k + is best spent. I understand it in Al's system.
I did hear an improvement throughout Alan's system and am happy to defend that position in conversation. I'd like to hear one in my own. I believe Alan is going to bring it over. If it works here, I'll say so.
I'll be auditioning speakers but whether I actually need to make a change remains to be seen.
I bought a copper grounding rod years ago from what was then called RATA (Russ Andrews Turntable Accessories) which I never used as I was shit scared of banging it into the ground and bursting a pipe or hitting 240vac. Went to stay with my long term audio lunatic last weekend and we were discussing these grounding boxes. What did he then produce......but his DIY version. Filled with several different kinds of stuff and other bits attached to a 4mm post. I will have to wait to hear from him as to what this does in his system, but I mentioned my copper rod (keep it clean) and my fear of busting something and he said that they can be laid flat.....FLAT! I never knew that.
So over the last couple of days I have been digging a trench, laying a rod with 16mm2 earth cable and inserting through an orifice (I said keep it clean) into my dog kennel.
Today I wired it in and had a listen. It has been a really busy week physically, lots of walks and cycling, so I was knackered. I just wanted to listen to some choons and chillax, so I had no intention of adopting the "critical listening" mode.
I have read that those boxes seem to tighten and deepen the bass (my mate told me that an earth rod works in the same way) and I think there may be something in that. As I say I was in full relaxed mode, but played a known track and noticed a discordant finger cymbal that I hadn't heard before. It is early days....about 60 mins of air time for the earth rod. Watch this space.
AJSki2fly
24-02-2019, 18:18
I bought a copper grounding rod years ago from what was then called RATA (Russ Andrews Turntable Accessories) which I never used as I was shit scared of banging it into the ground and bursting a pipe or hitting 240vac. Went to stay with my long term audio lunatic last weekend and we were discussing these grounding boxes. What did he then produce......but his DIY version. Filled with several different kinds of stuff and other bits attached to a 4mm post. I will have to wait to hear from him as to what this does in his system, but I mentioned my copper rod (keep it clean) and my fear of busting something and he said that they can be laid flat.....FLAT! I never knew that.
So over the last couple of days I have been digging a trench, laying a rod with 16mm2 earth cable and inserting through an orifice (I said keep it clean) into my dog kennel.
Today I wired it in and had a listen. It has been a really busy week physically, lots of walks and cycling, so I was knackered. I just wanted to listen to some choons and chillax, so I had no intention of adopting the "critical listening" mode.
I have read that those boxes seem to tighten and deepen the bass (my mate told me that an earth rod works in the same way) and I think there may be something in that. As I say I was in full relaxed mode, but played a known track and noticed a discordant finger cymbal that I hadn't heard before. It is early days....about 60 mins of air time for the earth rod. Watch this space.
Hi Rob,
I have not investigated the statements in here yet, but you need to read this http://www.puritanaudiolabs.com/products/ground-master/ download the pdf and have a read the important section states, as quoted below. I came across it when reading another thread about grounding boxes. I can't see a manufacturer of such equipment making up rubbish but you never know.
"Long before the problem of high frequency interference on the Earth Line became as serious as it is today, audiophiles in the know were utilising additional Ground Rods to provide an independent Earth to their HiFi installations.
Elegant as this solution may seem, this is a colossally dangerous practice for the vast majority of current installations*. This is because it risks the potentially massive current from any fault between your HiFi and your local substation finding the easiest path to Earth through your HiFi with expensive, and possibly tragic, results! This is why the practice of introducing directly connected supplementary or dedicated HiFi Ground Rods is specifically prohibited by current UK Wiring Regulations. (Except in very specific circumstances)."
"* For the past 50 years houses have normally been connected using the Protective Multiple Earth (PME) system, whereby the Neutral Line is bonded to Earth at the substation and at other points along the way and with Neutral and Earth circuits separated at the point of entry to the building. This style of installation provides the greatest dangers if using additional ground rods without connecting though the Ground Master whilst other styles of household Earth connection will still benefit greatly with increased safety and performance by using the Ground Master."
Hi Adrian, Thanks for that. I am aware of the 2008 regs regarding the use of grounding rods and that they should not be connected to PE. I am confident that grounding signal earth only is not an infrigement of any regs, nor a safety issue.
Wakefield Turntables
24-02-2019, 18:35
Just found this https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/akiko4/ might be of some interest to the discussion, or maybe not!
Just found this https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/akiko4/ might be of some interest to the discussion, or maybe not!
Interesting. I had assumed that this was an old 6moons review as it was succinct and to the point. I used to like reading 6moons reviews , but lately (IMO of course) they are just drivel and rarely give you any sense of what is being reviewed. I would assume that this unit contains similar to the others doing the rounds.
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