View Full Version : Grounding boxes - The real deal
MikeMusic
31-01-2019, 12:06
Offer still open here if you can pop over to North West Surrey.
Mentioned previously and worth repeating in case anyone missed it.
I went from sceptic to full ardent fan. Rarely I have heard such massive improvements from anything in my system.
Thx Mike,
I hope to take you up on that offer when i have a bit more free time.
Offer still open here if you can pop over to North West Surrey.
Mentioned previously and worth repeating in case anyone missed it.
I went from sceptic to full ardent fan. Rarely I have heard such massive improvements from anything in my system.
Sorry Mike but I cant wade through 26 pages, so could I get you to put in your 'signature' what cables you are using to connect to the RTZ box.
Thanks
I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.
The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.
On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).
And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
Which one made a difference?
What baffles me is that nobody can explain scientifically how they work.
Do they only work on systems in houses with a noisy environment, only in houses with a ring main fitted? What situation do do you need to be in to hear a difference using a grounding box?
ive asked twice in this thread and got no answers :scratch:
I must say, when I first heard about these grounding boxes on the forum here, I was skeptical. And, a large part of this skepticism is due to the manufacturers failing to provide a good reason as to why these things work, or not. Until I heard Alan and Marco say they have heard a difference, I had my doubts. Mainly because the sales pitch from some of these manufacturers sounded a lot like snake oil from products that don’t really work. However, the write up from Nordost I think comes closer to explaining it than others I have read.
From the testimonies of Alan and Marco, and what others have contributed here, it seems to me these products work by changing the, “Ground Potential”. And it’s as simple as that. I’m sure many here know how a laser printer works, while there is an absolute ground at the wall, the voltages inside the printer provide ground, and negative ground, the differences in voltages, and high voltages that are negative of ground make the positively charged toner particles attach to the lower than ground paper. I realize this is a very loose example and is not exactly how the grounding boxes work, but it illustrates that there can be differences in ground potential.
And this maybe why some makers are not forthcoming with the how and why of their products, they don’t want people knowing they can achieve the same results with less expensive parts? Such as, a grounding rod near the equipment. Or a resistor between signal ground and earth ground. Or whatever is causing the change in ground potential. Does the box of exotic materials on the end of the wire really matter? Or could the same results be achieved with a large block of iron? I don’t know. Or a box of wet sand? Or is it the cable that is causing the change? Simply increasing the mass of the signal ground could be affecting the ground potential.
In college I made an amplifier as my lab project. After building it, I had a pretty good hum going on. Increasing the size and number of grounds in the amp killed the hum. So why wouldn’t increasing it even more make it even quieter?
These are all just thoughts rolling around in my noggin, so please take it with a grain of salt. I have no personal experience with these products, and do not presume to know more than those with first hand experience. But being a scientific man, I need to have some idea of how something works to enjoy it. I don’t have to know for a fact this is how it works, but I at least need some plausible reasons why it could work. If there was a product that made absolutely no sense, but actually worked, I would have internal conflict, and I don’t think I could enjoy it’s benefits without at least a loose theory as to why it might work. If magic is the only plausible way something could work, I wouldn’t be able to accept that, and would probably be happier without it, no matter how great the improvement.
I suspect that once the mystery of how a Grounding Box works is out, people will be able to achieve these same results for much cheaper than they are charging for these new products. But time will tell!
Russell
blackmetalboon
31-01-2019, 19:01
Good post alphaGT.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that some equipment may have mains Earth and 0V connected together, in which case I cannot see how a grounding box could provide a lower impedance earth path. Surely this would increase the chances of a ground loop.
While there are pictures of the internals of grounding boxes on the internet, we have no idea how genuine they are, so how much insight we can gain from these is debatable.
I am really struggling myself to see how a passive box can act as a low impedance ground for 0V, unless it is designed to act as an equipotential reference point for 0V. But if this is true then the same results could be achieved for next to nothing cost.
Firebottle
31-01-2019, 19:10
Good post alphaGT.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that some equipment may have mains Earth and 0V connected together, in which case I cannot see how a grounding box could provide a lower impedance earth path.
..... unless it is designed to act as an equipotential reference point for 0V.
They don't provide an 'earth path', they are unconnected from earth. They don't act as an equipotential reference point either.
I have theories and will at some stage attempt to provide an answer (to myself at least), but at the moment it is still perplexing.
blackmetalboon
31-01-2019, 19:16
They don't provide an 'earth path', they are unconnected from earth. They don't act as an equipotential reference point either.
I have theories and will at some stage attempt to provide an answer (to myself at least), but at the moment it is still perplexing.
My point was that is, for example an amplifier, that has 0V referenced to mains earth (via the amplifiers classic/case) then it would be an earth path.
Accepting that these things work, and Firebottle has an inkling of how, would they work in a balanced system using xlr’s etc?
Berni217
31-01-2019, 20:35
I have to say what a pleasure it is reading this thread. The previously mentioned taken down thread on the pf forum was horrible to come across. The thread was started with a post about how wonderful a particular grounding box was and inviting anyone to his home to listen to the effect. This was followed by a torrent of piss-taking and abuse, some even by dealers and manufacturers, who you would think would not want to ridicule potential customers. Of course no one with a positive experience with grounding boxes dared chip in. It is refreshing on AoS that Marco you keep the discussion cordial and thereby encourage debate.
The arrogance and rudeness of some of the 'objectivists' remains a mystery to me. I simply cannot comprehend their motivation for expending so much energy on forums espousing negativity. And repeatedly telling people that they are not really hearing what they think they are hearing. It is such odd behaviour.
On Grounding Boxes - I have listened to a few manufacturer's versions: I heard no difference on one, a minor difference on another, and a major difference on a third. The differences were real, I was not experiencing 'expectation bias' (which would have applied to all three had it been in existence - though to be truthful I don't experience this so called 'expectation bias' since I have no preconceived expectation of what will or will not improve or detract from the sound, so there is no bias to fulfill).
And it is liberating to know I can post this without knowing someone will tell me I am a fraud for hearing the improvement a grounding box presents.
Great ... Must say that this thread was on the verge of becoming a similar experience to the PFM’s.
Glad that Marco put a stop to this heresy!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reading around this subject, and fully bearing in mind I'm not an electronic engineer or understand much about this subject, it does seem that (caveat: perhaps) the noise in the signal ground plane of audio equipment (noise from RFI etc) is somehow drained by the unique properties of ferroelectric materials (such as lead zirconate titanate, barium titanate) and other inorganic materials such as tourmaline. I'm guessing that some grounding boxes contain traces of such materials. If it is as simple as this then I can easily understand why grounding box manufacturers wish to keep their secret sauce secret.
But then again I may simply be a dog barking up the wrong tree here. :lol: It's been known before - ask my wife!
,
Duckworp
31-01-2019, 22:58
Which one made a difference?
What baffles me is that nobody can explain scientifically how they work.
Do they only work on systems in houses with a noisy environment, only in houses with a ring main fitted? What situation do do you need to be in to hear a difference using a grounding box?
The one that made the biggest difference was the CAD GC1 and GC3. CAD explain the science as follows:
CAD believes that one of the key reasons so many digital audio products “sound digital” is due to this high frequency noise. From the very beginning of CAD we have worked hard to reduce unwanted noise in all our products. Materials and technologies that are used in our 1543 MKII DAC, USB Cables and CAT are included in the GC1, GC3 and GC-R Ground Controls.
The Ground Control contains a mixture of materials that converts high frequency energy into heat. Our research has found that to achieve the best sound quality the GC1, GC3 & GC-R needed to be effective over a large frequency range. This was not easy to accomplish! The CAD Ground Controls will substantially reduce noise from very high KHz range up to over 10 GHz.
There are two independent voltage references in any audio system:
1) Signal Ground
2) Earth
Earth is what the third pin on your mains plug is connected to and what your copper pipes in your house are connected to. Earth is not typically (but occasionally is) connected to the Signal Ground in higher quality audio components.
Signal Ground is the negative side of an RCA, XLR, USB etc. connector.
Most audio engineers put a lot of effort into making sure the positive and negative rails of their DC power supplies have low ripple and noise, adequate bandwidth, etc. but typically not much thought is put into the signal ground plane.
CAD believes that reducing high frequency noise on Signal Ground and Earth improves sound quality.
Unfortunately there isn’t a common industry accepted technique for measuring noise levels on Signal Ground or Earth. A common measurement is Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio. S/N is the maximum output of a device (0dB) divided by the minimum output of a device (the noise). The reference for both of these measurements is Signal Ground. S/N measurement is not the whole story because it does not tell you anything about noise on the Signal Ground. You can have a very good S/N measurement and in reality the system can have considerable noise on the Ground side.
The CAD GC1, GC3 & GC-R Ground Controls can be connected to any audio product that has an unused output or input connection. If your DAC, streamer, computer, phone stage, preamplifier, amplifier, CD Player, NAS, etc. has a spare output/input connector like an RCA, XLR, Spade, USB or BNC you can connect the GC1 Ground Control to that. We supply a range of interconnects with various connectors. The other end of the connector has a single 4mm banana plug that attaches to the Ground Control.
There are two 4mm banana sockets on the back on the GC1 and six on the back of the GC3 and the GC-R.
The GC1, GC3 or GC-R Ground Control can also be attached to Earth. If you have any type of Earth connection on your audio system or power distribution CAD can supply you a cable with an appropriate connector that will fit. The outside case of any audio component that is made from metal by law must be connected to Earth for safety. So another option is to attach a Ground Control to the case directly by loosening a case screw and inserting a Ground Control cable with a spade connector.
We typically get the best results connecting the GC1 Ground Control to the device in your system that has the highest noise levels: components like computers, audio servers, DACs, CD players, NAS, routers etc. or by connecting the GC1 Ground Control to mains Earth. These are the best places to first try connecting the GC1 to. The GC3 & GC-R work exceptionally well connected to your mains Earth connection and directly to the cases of your amplification.
We also have had very good results connecting a Ground Control to phono preamplifiers. The gain on these devices is large and the reduction of noise that the Ground Control provides has brought some amazing results.
Note: Amplifiers
We do not recommend attaching Ground Controls to the output of audio amplifiers unless you completely understand the technical design, or the amplifier can be damaged
Our results have shown that better sonic results are typically obtained by connecting Ground Controls to source components, preamplifier or an unused input of an amplifier.
But, if this is not possible and you wish to connect a Ground Control to the output of an amplifier (especially a balanced design) you must follow these rules:
Never connect a Ground Control to a positive output.
If you connect a Ground Control to the negative output NEVER connect the Ground Control to anything else. It is safe if you connect a Ground Control to the negative output of your amplifier only if the Ground Control is NOT connected to anything else. If you also attached the Ground Control to another component or to Mains Earth you may short your amplifier and damage will result.
Paul Rigby aka TheAudiophileMan.com (online Hi-Fi magazine) gave the CAD units a very rare 10 out of 10. His summing up:
The Ground Control might not be the first product of its ilk, either, but it’s the first product to do it right. In this respect, it changes how we listen to sound and, hence, is fully deserving of an ultra-rare, full marks, 10/10, Golden Groovy. This is only the sixth time that I have ever awarded this accolade. The CAD Ground Control fully deserves it too.
The one that made the biggest difference was the CAD GC1 and GC3. CAD explain the science as follows:
CAD believes that one of the key reasons so many digital audio products “sound digital” is due to this high frequency noise. .
Since this is their starting point I think the first question to be asked is 'Is this really an issue?'
I've heard some CAD equipment on a couple of occasions and both times it has impressed me. Neither application was using one of their grounding boxes. So no argument with CAD, they produce good, albeit expensive, kit.
The issue I have is that I do not use any grounding products or in fact any accessories at all. Just CD player into pre-amp -power amp - speakers. No anti-vibration supports, special stands, mains conditioners, regenerators, balanced cables, balanced mains, cable lifters.... you name it I don't have it.
And yet the sound, even from a budget player that would maybe cost £500 new in today's money, does not sound 'digital' in the slightest. Of course you would need to define what 'sounding digital' means, which CAD don't do, but let's just assume they mean 'slightly unpleasant to listen to.' The usual criticisms - 'harsh', 'hard', 'glare', 'fatiguing' etc.
I don't get any of that in my system, although in the past I have had all of those issues with digital. Those problems went away gradually as I improved the amplification and I think that is where the real problem lies: Most amplifiers are rubbish. Either they are budget equipment and are consequently inherently compromised by limited build cost, or they are expensive but the bulk of the budget has been spent on blingy case and knobs and the glossy marketing brochure.
(Edit: There is a third possibility in that the amp has been designed to have harmonic distortion to spice up the sound - but if you introduce harmonic distortion you also introduce intermodulation distortion and that always sounds bad with anything except a very simple music signal).
Wheras vinyl - and analogue tape - is reasonably agnostic to this (my theory is that the analogue noise inherent to analogue sources and their replay actually ameliorates the problems of poor amplifiers) digital, in its near perfection, gives the amp nowhere to hide.
Using a grounding box and introducing a little noise into the system replicates this analogue noise and softens the sound out so it is no longer hard, harsh, glassy etc. From the listener's perspective this is heard as a cleaner sound, a more open sound. (Consider also that it is theorised that the superior soundstage of vinyl over digital is entirely a product of noise artefacts).
So yes, the box is subjectively improving sound quality but not in the way the manufacturers claim or users might want to think - but it is a sticking plaster solution. The real solution is to get better amplification.
Okay so this is a theory I am just chucking out there, but to me it makes a lot more sense than the given explanations about 'grounding superfluous high frequencies' or whatever since any EE will tell you this is nonsense from the get go. How would the box know to filter out the superfluous frequencies but keep all the frequencies that make up the music signal intact? How can it differentiate? Of course it can not do this.
I can see the logic. In certain situations. This video shows how to make one and he makes interesting observations towards the end.
http://www.youtube.com/v/NOVfFLTXB3k
jandl100
01-02-2019, 08:17
Awesome pontificating, Martin. :eek:
But I think it would help if you had actually heard one. :D
Awesome pontificating, Martin. :eek:
But I think it would help if you had actually heard one. :D
Theorising not pontificating. And how would hearing one help explain how it works? How it works is what interests me. Obviously I'm taking the testimonials that it does work at face value.
Theorising not pontificating. And how would hearing one help explain how it works? How it works is what interests me. Obviously I'm taking the testimonials that it does work at face value.
No-one with a vested interest will want to say though. Trusting your ears only means you are also trusting your ability not to be duped by soundbites and 'reviews', and a small improvement could easily be put down to that.
Thanks Peter for posting that.
full review here: https://theaudiophileman.com/cad-ground-control-review/
I'm no scientist, but at last i think i understand how these things can work. It seems to be a development of some of the Bybee / Oriton Black Bullet type things, well similar principle anyway.
If you lump these and isolation devices such as Black Ravioli feet, Harmonic Resolution Devices, even Hi-fi stands - as trying to reduce 'noise' - doesn't matter if it's RFI or vibration etc, then i can get my head around it.
No-one with a vested interest will want to say though. Trusting your ears only means you are also trusting your ability not to be duped by soundbites and 'reviews', and a small improvement could easily be put down to that.
It could but I'm happy to accept that there is something more than that occurring.
No-one with a vested interest will want to say though. Trusting your ears only means you are also trusting your ability not to be duped by soundbites and 'reviews', and a small improvement could easily be put down to that.
Absolutely, but surely anyone with a "vested interest", i.e. the manufacturer concerned or dealer selling the product, *if* they're confident in its efficacy, should be open and honest about how it works and welcome scrutiny from prospective buyers?
Quite simply, this device is either designed around genuine engineering/scientific principles that work, or on placebo - and if it's the former (which is my feeling) then it doesn't help when how it's been designed to function is cloaked in mystery.
Marco.
Quite simply, this device is either designed around genuine engineering/scientific principles that work, or on placebo - and if it's the former (which is my feeling) then it doesn't help when how it's been designed to work is cloaked in mystery.
Marco.
I don't think so. In fact I recall Entreq saying theirs was designed purely by trial and error. If there was any engineering research behind it we'd have some manufacturer measurements showing before and after noise levels. And we don't. After all showing some measurements of how effective it is at doing what it is claimed to do would not give away the 'secret recipe' so there would be no harm in doing it. They don't do it because they don't have any.
I don't think the effect is imaginary either btw.
The get-out clause for manufacturers is 'trade secrets'; ie if they explain how it works in too much detail, other manufacturers will quickly rush out knock-off versions and undercut them on price. I've often seen this trotted out in, for example, reviews of fancy/expensive cables.
Being a clueless n00b when it comes to technical stuff, I doubt I'd get very far trying to understand a detailed 'how it works' explanation, anyway. I certainly wouldn't be able to challenge any claims on science or engineering grounds (no pun intended).
I don't think so. In fact I recall Entreq saying theirs was designed purely by trial and error. If there was any engineering research behind it we'd have some manufacturer measurements showing before and after noise levels. And we don't. After all showing some measurements of how effective it is at doing what it is claimed to do would not give away the 'secret recipe' so there would be no harm in doing it. They don't do it because they don't have any.
There was a 'white paper' on the Entreq site but though it's still referred to elsewhere on the site, it seems to have vanished.
Beobloke
01-02-2019, 09:37
Quite simply, this device is either designed around genuine engineering/scientific principles that work....
Trust me, Marco - it isn’t!
I don't think so. In fact I recall Entreq saying theirs was designed purely by trial and error. If there was any engineering research behind it we'd have some manufacturer measurements showing before and after noise levels.
I'm talking about basic engineering or electrical principles. If this product's function is founded upon neither, then how can it genuinely work? And if it doesn't genuinely work, then quite simply it's snake oil. That's why more transparency is needed, in terms of how it's been designed and what it attempts to address.
You can only measure something, if you know *exactly* what to measure, and moreover, you can only show the subsequent measurements if what you've measured actually works!
The fact is, no-one's asking what the components are, which combine to produce this 'grounding box', or how to make one and copy it; merely its basic design principles and how it's intended to function. Therefore, that information should be more than forthcoming from the manufacturer concerned and/or the dealer(s) selling them (I'm not just talking about Tony's product here), in CLEAR and SIMPLE terms.
Otherwise the obvious question is: what is there to hide?:hmm:
Marco.
Trust me, Marco - it isn’t!
Well then, the jury's out. I'm not sufficiently interested in one of these boxes, especially at the price quoted, to try and find out how it works, if it can't be explained in clear and simple terms by those with a 'vested interest', as I'm not someone prone to throwing my money at something unless there's a damn good reason for doing so!
Even for a diehard subjectivist like me, 'come and have a listen to one' is not enough, as it doesn't get me passed the first hurdle of 'what is it actually designed to do?' Everything in my system *must* have a clearly defined and established purpose.
And why hasn't a loan sample of the product been offered, which interested parties could assess, prior to a potential purchase? Surely, in the long run, that would generate more sales, especially if the testimonials were good?
Marco.
jandl100
01-02-2019, 09:55
... then it doesn't help when how it's been designed to function is cloaked in mystery.
Marco.
Well, that's the basis of the patent system - the desire to protect your design from competitors who could take advantage of your insight, time and effort.
Absolutely, but surely anyone with a "vested interest", i.e. the manufacturer concerned or dealer selling the product, *if* they're confident in its efficacy, should be open and honest about how it works and welcome scrutiny from prospective buyers?
Quite simply, this device is either designed around genuine engineering/scientific principles that work, or on placebo - and if it's the former (which is my feeling) then it doesn't help when how it's been designed to function is cloaked in mystery.
Marco.
Issue being that when the science is revealed (if it even exists) then the true cost of making one of these up will be revealed. This is when the cloak of tomfoolery will be removed and the cashflow will end.
That's why no-one is forthcoming with the details. This game is all too common in the hifi lark, shamefully.
Stratmangler
01-02-2019, 10:04
Until I heard Alan and Marco say they have heard a difference
Marco hasn't said so - I've been following this thread quite closely, purely because of the comedy potential.
From the testimonies of Alan and Marco
See my comment above.
Well, that's the basis of the patent system - the desire to protect your design from competitors who could take advantage of your insight, time and effort.
Yes. but I'm not asking for a detailed blueprint on its design (obviously), just a basic description of its intended functionality, in clearly defined and unambiguous terms.
If the product's been designed for the right reasons, and has a genuine purpose, other than that of creating a placebo effect, or simply a 'cash cow' for its maker, or anyone else who stands to profit from sales, then there's no reason why that information shouldn't be forthcoming.
Marco.
Marco hasn't said so - I've been following this thread quite closely, purely because of the comedy potential.
Yes, just to be clear, I haven't used one of these grounding boxes, so there are no testimonials here from me. No idea how it was perceived differently:scratch:
Marco.
Marco hasn't said so - I've been following this thread quite closely, purely because of the comedy potential.
See my comment above.
I'm sure Marco hasn't heard one, going on this thread.
Issue being that when the science is revealed (if it even exists) then the true cost of making one of these up will be revealed. This is when the cloak of tomfoolery will be removed and the cashflow will end.
That's why no-one is forthcoming with the details. This game is all too common in the hifi lark, shamefully.
Then *IF* that is the case, and I'm not saying it is, the truth deserves to be outed, and I wouldn't want such devices promoted on AoS, as it's fundamentally against our ethos. The focus here is, and always will be, on genuine, high-quality equipment, delivering the highest SPPV.
Marco.
To go off topic for a moment....I spent a few hours off grid yesterday. I unplugged as many smps wall warts and devices with smps inbuilt as I could, turned off the WiFi, all phones and tablets / PC’s etc. I initially thought there was an improvement but later on as I started to plug stuff back in I had to be honest and note the sound was much the same as before.
If there was an improvement it must be very subtle to none existent as it eluded me. I can only draw the conclusion that my system seems to be immune from any major effects of smps and RFI...which is quite comforting as its one less thing to be concerned about. One positive is I’ve removed a number of unused wall wart PSUs and computers that I no longer require, going on the principle that even if I can’t detect an improvement less is more!
I'm talking about basic engineering or electrical principles. If this product's function is founded upon neither, then how can it genuinely work? And if it doesn't genuinely work, then quite simply it's snake oil. That's why more transparency is needed, in terms of how it's been designed and what it attempts to address.
You can only measure something, if you know *exactly* what to measure, and moreover, you can only show the subsequent measurements if what you've measured actually works!
The fact is, no-one's asking what the components are, which combine to produce this 'grounding box', or how to make one and copy it; merely its basic design principles and how it's intended to function. Therefore, that information should be more than forthcoming from the manufacturer concerned and/or the dealer(s) selling them (I'm not just talking about Tony's product here), in CLEAR and SIMPLE terms.
Otherwise the obvious question is: what is there to hide?:hmm:
Marco.
I’m impressed! Totally agree.
Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
"The prejudice I was referring to was in relation to the propensity of staunch objectivists to arrogantly dismiss everything that doesn't fit with their scientific belief system"
What actually is gong on, is a corruption of the scientific method to provide comfort to the espouser; they are not usually entirely objective, and mask their lack of intellectual rigour with a stance of arrogant aggression.
From Marco; You're last sentence, however, is especially revealing and rather interesting. Would you say that this "cultural norm" has bred the type of arrogant aggression and dogma, often displayed on forums by 'engineering types'/objectivists? Also, what caused this "cultural norm" to start with, and which also appears to have bred the (often unjustified) sense of superiority you've mentioned?
There was an arrogance and conceit expressed with the eyes from many of the 'engineers', much more so with the non graduate 'C course' people than with the university graduates who often had a knowledgable fresheness in their manner.
There was also a sense of being special by most Auntie employees, and this was just because of working for Auntie rather than being measurably performance related. The engineers often stood tall and stern, expressing purely with their eyes that they were looking at something the 'cat had brought in'.
But they only had the 'C' course, something which I subsequently exceeded. This behaviour no doubt was a part of their self perceived identity and validity, and became a social group norm; I have also recently experienced similar behaviour from their research dept.
This 'pure theatre' had its effects on others not party to that social norm, including me, and I attracted much scorn and derision for my own attempts at audio work.
However, my last manager, a decent honest and humble guy, and with whom I discussed the organisation after leaving, quoted his description of me to another employee as being "streets ahead of the rest", whilst earlier a middle aged, and described as a neurotic by a graduate, used to describe me as "dead wood".
This all underlines the techniques used by people to achieve self esteem, self deception, and probably is adopted by those who lack self esteem in the first place.
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 11:16
You can only measure something, if you know *exactly* what to measure, and moreover, you can only show the subsequent measurements if what you've measured actually works!.
Here is the nub of the problem. The levels of 'pollutants' (I will continue to use this term as it is not just RFI imo) is very small in terms of something to measure.
The ear is very sensitive and has been shown on may occasions can detect things that are not conventionally 'measurable'. When the masking effect of this small pollutant level is removed the ear can detect the change.
The level of said pollutants is very small and also very wide bandwidth. With measuring equipment getting the required sensitivity plus the necessary bandwidth is almost an impossible task as they are in many ways mutually exclusive.
Duckworp
01-02-2019, 11:18
Yes. but I'm not asking for a detailed blueprint on its design (obviously), just a basic description of its intended functionality, in unambiguous terms.
If the product's been designed for the right reasons, and has a genuine purpose, other than that of creating a placebo effect, or simply a 'cash cow' for its maker, or anyone else who stands to profit from sales, then there's no reason why that information shouldn't be forthcoming.
Marco.
I’m no electronic engineer but this from the CAD website gives a basic explanation. The man behind CAD is an electronic engineer (and CAD make one of the best sounding DACs I have ever heard so he knows his stuff).
The Ground Control contains a mixture of materials that converts high frequency energy into heat. Our research has found that to achieve the best sound quality the GC1, GC3 & GC-R needed to be effective over a large frequency range. This was not easy to accomplish! The CAD Ground Controls will substantially reduce noise from very high KHz range up to over 10 GHz.
There are two independent voltage references in any audio system:
1) Signal Ground
2) Earth
Earth is what the third pin on your mains plug is connected to and what your copper pipes in your house are connected to. Earth is not typically (but occasionally is) connected to the Signal Ground in higher quality audio components.
Signal Ground is the negative side of an RCA, XLR, USB etc. connector.
Most audio engineers put a lot of effort into making sure the positive and negative rails of their DC power supplies have low ripple and noise, adequate bandwidth, etc. but typically not much thought is put into the signal ground plane.
CAD believes that reducing high frequency noise on Signal Ground and Earth improves sound quality.
Here is the nub of the problem. The levels of 'pollutants' (I will continue to use this term as it is not just RFI imo) is very small in terms of something to measure.
The ear is very sensitive and has been shown on may occasions can detect things that are not conventionally 'measurable'. When the masking effect of this small pollutant level is removed the ear can detect the change.
The level of said pollutants is very small and also very wide bandwidth. With measuring equipment getting the required sensitivity plus the necessary bandwidth is almost an impossible task as they are in many ways mutually exclusive.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for that, so what exactly are these "pollutants", what generates them, and how, in your opinion, does this grounding box help eliminate them?
I agree with your point on ears being sensitive, and measuring apparatus sometimes being unable to measure all that we can hear, but of course there has to be something genuine to measure in the first place.
Marco.
Hi Peter,
Thanks for that. At last, a simple and concise explanation for what these boxes are purported to do! If this in fact is what's happening:
Most audio engineers put a lot of effort into making sure the positive and negative rails of their DC power supplies have low ripple and noise, adequate bandwidth, etc. but typically not much thought is put into the signal ground plane.
CAD believes that reducing high frequency noise on Signal Ground and Earth improves sound quality.
...*and*, crucially, this grounding box (and others like it) successfully address that issue [and I'd like to see evidence of how], then I could see why they'd work. However, why does it need to cost as much as £800 to produce?:hmm:
Marco.
P.S Dennis, another excellent post, on a subject that's dear to both of our hearts! I shall reply later:)
It might be simple and concise but not much use if it is meaningless.
Not seen anything so far to persuade me that subtraction, rather than addition, is what causes the effect. Addition is far more likely from a theoretical position.
Not for me. Sorry, I don't buy the notion of it adding noise, and that somehow this makes making things sound better, as it's counter-intuitive. For me, that's a dead end. If that's what it did, then chances are I'd hate it, as I dislike adding any unnecessary coloration.
That bit I've highlighted above makes perfect sense, given my considerable experience in other areas of eradicating similar types of noise, *if* it can be conclusively proven that what's stated is fact. However, it would be enough reason for me to investigate further, but it would have to be at considerably lower cost.
I might ask Duncan to knock one up for me, based upon the electrical principles stated, then report back!
Marco.
Not for me. Sorry, I don't buy the notion of it adding noise, and that somehow this makes making things sound better, as it's counter-intuitive. For me, that's a dead end. If that's what it did, then chances are I'd hate it, as I dislike adding any unnecessary coloration.
That bit I've highlighted above makes perfect sense, given my considerable experience in other areas of eradicating similar types of noise, *if* it can be conclusively proven that what's stated is fact. However, it would be enough reason for me to investigate further, but it would have to be at considerably lower cost.
I might ask Duncan to knock one up for me, based upon the electrical principles stated, then report back!
Marco.
I agree it is counter-intuitive but some things are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither
'Dither is an intentionally applied form of noise used to randomize quantization error, preventing large-scale patterns such as color banding in images. Dither is routinely used in processing of both digital audio and video data, and is often one of the last stages of mastering audio to a CD.'
Yup, but I wouldn't use anything in my system that didn't produce a beneficial effect on *music*, for the right reasons - and my ears would soon tell me, either instantly or through time, by using the device concerned, if any improvement perceived was genuine or not.
*Everything* I do in hi-fi, or for my system, is for the purpose of 'opening the window' as widely as possible, thus maximising resolution and realism, not the opposite!;)
Marco.
AJSki2fly
01-02-2019, 13:06
this explanation is quite interesting
https://youtu.be/zgqYdq0VgKg
MikeMusic
01-02-2019, 13:31
Accepting that these things work, and Firebottle has an inkling of how, would they work in a balanced system using xlr’s etc?
Yup.
TAD - TAD, see below
All wonderful
MikeMusic
01-02-2019, 13:40
Pressured by my lust to get more out of the music I got rid of my Coherent RTZ 2 yesterday.
Replaced by a Coherent RTZ 3
When I first heard what was going on a I said a rude Anglo Saxon word
The RTZ 3 is staying. The step up in sound quality was not subtle.
Black too so must be wonderful
First Grounding Box virgin visits me next week.
Be interesting to hear his thoughts
anthonyTD
01-02-2019, 13:45
So basicaly what your saying is; the box is attracting random frequencies from the air, and imposing them on the Ground, or 0 volt rail of the equipment its connected to ?
A bit like how a crystal set works, and powers a small ear piece, or headphones.
I am more inclined to think that it is more likely to be equaling the earth or 0 volt potential of each piece of kit that's connected to it.
I agree it is counter-intuitive but some things are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither
'Dither is an[B] intentionally applied form of noise used to randomize quantization error, preventing large-scale patterns such as color banding in images. Dither is routinely used in processing of both digital audio and video data, and is often one of the last stages of mastering audio to a CD.'
I agree it is counter-intuitive but some things are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither
'Dither is an intentionally applied form of noise used to randomize quantization error, preventing large-scale patterns such as color banding in images. Dither is routinely used in processing of both digital audio and video data, and is often one of the last stages of mastering audio to a CD.'
And this is the thing; you might not necessarily know if something is added or taken away within the signal, as demonstrated by Macca's link, unless it is truly detrimental to the sound and bloody obvious
So basicaly what your saying is; the box is attracting random frequencies from the air, and imposing them on the Ground, or 0 volt rail of the equipment its connected to ?
A bit like how a crystal set works, [basicaly a tuned circuit that plucks frequencies out of the air] and powers a small ear piece, or headphones.
I am more inclined to think that it is more likely to be equaling the earth or 0 volt potential of each piece of kit that's connected to it.
Yes I suppose I am.
I don't see how the box can act as an earth as it isn't big enough. Actually now I think about it we already had this discussion the other day...
And this is the thing; you might not necessarily know if something is added or taken away within the signal, as demonstrated by Macca's link, unless it is truly detrimental to the sound and bloody obvious
Agreed. For e.g vinyl adds quite a lot of things that are not supposed to be there but it either doesn't add enough of them to be a real issue or the things it adds are actually perceived as positives due to psychoacoustics.
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 13:57
Thanks for that, so what exactly are these "pollutants", what generates them, and how, in your opinion, does this grounding box help eliminate them?
All these 'grounding boxes' have a connection point, or points, in common, being the Ground Plane / Zero Volt rail / Signal earth or whatever you like to refer to it as.
Just because a large fill of copper on a pcb, for instance, is put there to act as the reference for signals and supply rails and is often referred to as the zero volt rail / plane, doesn't mean there are no currents (signals/pollutants) flowing in/across it.
One can surmise that these pollutants can come from many sources as we are talking about low levels. If the levels were high then I suggest they would be heard as hum or noise or smearing of the sound at normal listening levels.
These pollutants probably include clock or switching noise in digital equipment, residual power supply noise, protective earth conducted noise and a wide range of radio frequency interference in all equipment.
The big question for everyone is how is all this crud 'attracted' to a grounding box. I'm sorry to say but I don't have an explanation, but given the wide bandwidth I know that the materials used are very important.
If and when I can come up with a scientific explanation I will share it on here.
anthonyTD
01-02-2019, 14:06
So its affectively a bandpass filter, attracting specific groups of frequencies [noise] out of the 0 volt line, or groundplane of each piece of equipment, and then doing what with them ? releasing them into the air ??? or absorbing them within the secret mix of materials in the box ?
All these 'grounding boxes' have a connection point, or points, in common, being the Ground Plane / Zero Volt rail / Signal earth or whatever you like to refer to it as.
Just because a large fill of copper on a pcb, for instance, is put there to act as the reference for signals and supply rails and is often referred to as the zero volt rail / plane, doesn't mean there are no currents (signals/pollutants) flowing in/across it.
One can surmise that these pollutants can come from many sources as we are talking about low levels. If the levels were high then I suggest they would be heard as hum or noise or smearing of the sound at normal listening levels.
These pollutants probably include clock or switching noise in digital equipment, residual power supply noise, protective earth conducted noise and a wide range of radio frequency interference in all equipment.
The big question for everyone is how is all this crud 'attracted' to a grounding box. I'm sorry to say but I don't have an explanation, but given the wide bandwidth I know that the materials used are very important.
If and when I can come up with a scientific explanation I will share it on here.
And this is the thing; you might not necessarily know if something is added or taken away within the signal, as demonstrated by Macca's link, unless it is truly detrimental to the sound and bloody obvious
Trust me, if it has an insidiously negative effect on the music [and that doesn't mean an immediately noticeable detrimental one], and your ears are any good, it'll creep up on you through time and become obvious... Usually when you find yourself not listening to or enjoying music, as much as before the 'box' (or whatever) went in.
It's very easy, on first listening of anything you're told, or expect to give an improvement, to believe that's the case when you hear it [expectation bias]. That's why the *only* subjective way of properly assessing for these things is to install it and live with it for two weeks, or so, and get used to what it does in your system, musically.
Then take it out, and with a familiar piece of music, listen again and decide if what you're hearing at that point is better or worse. If something is producing a *genuine* (not imagined) beneficial effect, it will usually pass that crucial test;)
That's what I do with all these types of things, and cables.
Marco.
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 14:19
So its affectively a bandpass filter, attracting specific groups of frequencies [noise] out of the 0 volt line, or groundplane of each piece of equipment, and then doing what with them ? releasing them into the air ??? or absorbing them within the secret mix of materials in the box ?
Probably the latter, but as I say I don't know.
Hi Mike,
First Grounding Box virgin visits me next week.
Be interesting to hear his thoughts
Indeed, but for curiosity purposes only. What could it possibly prove, or would one be able to learn, other than the grounding box in question (arguably) works in your system? It won't prove that it's going to work in his, as the operating conditions will be different...
Is this chap near you, and if so, is there a possibility of taking the box round to his place, and installing it in his system afterwards, and having another listen there? That would make for a far more interesting [and valid] write-up:)
Marco.
anthonyTD
01-02-2019, 14:31
Thinking about it in a different way; if it works by frequency selection, then it could easily also be working as a frequency transmitter, which picks up RFI from the air [by acting as an aerial] and imposing those frequencies on the 0 volt line, causing some form of crude nulling of other frequencies present on the 0 volt line ?
Probably the latter, but as I say I don't know.
If you actually read the review - link posted in post 269 - it does mention converting the 'noise' into heat
Trust me, if it has an insidiously negative effect on the music [and that doesn't mean an immediately noticeable detrimental one], and your ears are any good, it'll creep up on you through time and become obvious... Usually when you find yourself not listening to or enjoying music, as much as before the 'box' (or whatever) went in.
It's very easy, on first listening of anything you're told, or expect to give an improvement, to believe that's the case when you hear it [expectation bias]. That's why the *only* subjective way of properly assessing for these things is to install it and live with it for two weeks, or so, and get used to what it does in your system, musically.
Then take it out, and with a familiar piece of music, listen again and decide if what you're hearing at that point is better or worse. If something is producing a *genuine* (not imagined) beneficial effect, it will usually pass that crucial test;)
That's what I do with all these types of things, and cables.
Marco.
What I'm saying is that if whatever it is that has been added is not unpleasant to the ear or below or above your hearing ability, then chances are you'll not know it's been added.
Probably the latter, but as I say I don't know.
Heat according to the review posted earlier...oops beaten to it....
What I'm saying is that if whatever it is that has been added is not unpleasant to the ear or below or above your hearing ability, then chances are you'll not know it's been added.
Yes, but what I'm saying is that you may not *truly discover* whether it's "unpleasant to the ear", or otherwise, until after having lived with it for some time, and then removing it and reverting back to what you had before!;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
01-02-2019, 15:02
Sorry, missed that.
A...
If you actually read the review - link posted in post 269 - it does mention converting the 'noise' into heat
Yes, but what I'm saying is that you may not *truly discover* whether it's "unpleasant to the ear", or otherwise, until after having lived with it for some time, and then removing it and reverting back to what you had before!;)
Marco.
And I'm saying that you might never know if something has been added or taken away, dependent on its subtlety or how pleasurable it is to the ear.
You may determine that something has been taken away from the sound you are hearing, but it could be quite the opposite. This is why measurement could be an eye opener in the case of these grounding boxes.
Agreed. For e.g vinyl adds quite a lot of things that are not supposed to be there but it either doesn't add enough of them to be a real issue...
So does digital; simply in a different way!;)
Both impart their own intrinsic forms of coloration, to varying degrees. You need to rid yourself of the erroneous notion that digital music reproduction is somehow 'transparent'... It isn't.
Marco.
I’m waiting with bated breath for comments from others who have tried one rather than discussing the theoretical reasons why they do or don’t alter the sound. I wonder if MikeMusic has a dedicated ring for his equipment or not. Seems like the money to be made comes from the recommended cables. Will a coat hanger wire suffice?
And I'm saying that you might never know if something has been added or taken away, dependent on its subtlety or how pleasurable it is to the ear.
You may determine that something has been taken away from the sound you are hearing, but it could be quite the opposite. This is why measurement could be an eye opener in the case of these grounding boxes.
Yes, I agree, but the point is that the effect has to be assessed for and analysed properly, over a period of time, not simply via a quick-fire A/B comparison, or even a lengthy A/B/A one, on the same day at a bake-off...
And measurements are only of any use if you're measuring for the *right* things, in order to correctly prove or disprove an effect, otherwise they're useless. We're not entirely sure how this device works yet, so how would you know what to successfully measure for?
Marco.
Marco,
You can asses and analyse till the cows come home, but on a piece of music you are familiar with if the differences are huge, then a short A/B should suffice ?
It's all about the music.
Yes, I agree, but the point is that the effect has to be assessed for and analysed properly, over a period of time, not simply via a quick-fire A/B comparison, or even a lengthy A/B/A one, on the same day at a bake-off...
And measurements are only of any use if you're measuring for the *right* things, in order to correctly prove or disprove an effect, otherwise they're useless. We're not entirely sure how this device works yet, so how would you know what to successfully measure for?
Marco.
Well, the claim is that the box removes RFI. We know now that RFI is across the spectrum so you can't measure all of it but if you can inject RFI into the environment in some band that is measurable, then you can measure it - or the lack of it after use of the grounding box.
You don't necessarily need to know how it works to prove it works, although it'd be nice to know.
Hi Julian.
Marco,
You can asses and analyse till the cows come home, but on a piece of music you are familiar with if the differences are huge, then a short A/B should suffice ?
Nope, you have to take some proper steps to (as far as possible) remove any expectation bias.
We're all susceptible to it, especially when in the company of enthusiastic users of the product in question, keen to show off their 'new toy' - and I wouldn't want to be paying £800 for *anything*, until I was 110% convinced that any benefit I heard was a) big enough to justify the outlay in the first place, and b) real:)
Marco.
Well, the claim is that the box removes RFI. We know now that RFI is across the spectrum so you can't measure all of it but if you can inject RFI into the environment in some band that is measurable, then you can measure it - or the lack of it after use of the grounding box.
Sorry, I'm afraid that's only your supposition, based on assumption, not fact. The key is in the word "claim".
You need to be *certain* how the product works, and that you're measuring for the right thing (i.e. the phenomenon you're attempting to prove exists, or the opposite), otherwise you can't use those measurements as proof of that, or of the efficacy of the device in question.
Marco.
Sorry, I'm afraid that's only your supposition, based on assumption, not fact. You need to be *certain* that you're measuring for the right thing (i.e. the phenomenon you're attempting to prove exists, or the opposite), otherwise you can't use those measurements as proof of that.
Marco.
No that's the claim. The noise is removed from the music by removal of the RFI. If you can measure it going in you can measure it being removed.
There is no supposition as to what the claim is - its creator(s) aren't saying 'it makes the music nicer'.
No that's the claim. The noise is removed from the music by removal of the RFI. If you can measure it going in you can measure it being removed.
There is no supposition as to what the claim is - its creator(s) aren't saying 'it makes the music nicer'.
Where does the manufacturer specifically say that - could you link to it please? I must've missed it.
Even so, it doesn't necessarily mean that's what this device is *actually* doing [after all, it's only their CLAIM] - and if you don't know exactly what it's doing, or adding/removing, (as evidenced by the previous discussion between two of our resident EEs, AnthonyTD and Firebottle), then how can you successfully measure for it?
Measure away, for the effects RFI, but that might not necessarily tell you what you need to know!;)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I think i understand where you're coming from, but i don't necessarily agree. We all like to understand how something works, i used to race motorcycles and tuned my own engines - gave me a lot of mechanical sympathy, and i was able to hear and feel what the engine was doing, change gear at the top of the torque curve etc etc. Didn't help me win races - too fat !
I've never been interested in spending money for money's sake, or keeping up with the Jones's, but i have been through 3 amplifiers in the last twelve months. Each time i auditioned them at the sellers house, took my 'old' amplifier and a bunch of very familiar cd's with me, then A/B'd them until i had made a decision, and i auditioned more than i bought.
Each one was an upgrade, and i wasn't concerned that single ended should have sounded better than push-pull, or 6L6 sounded better than 845...
I've never heard a grounding box, but having read quite a lot about them think that i've got a handle on how they 'might' work. That's good enough for me, but i don't have the spare coin to invest right now, so going to look at optimising my system, and balanced mains........Cue can of worms..
Hey, Julian, whatever works for you works. I wouldn't attempt to dispute your experiences, mate, so enjoy. I just do things a little differently:)
i used to race motorcycles and tuned my own engines - gave me a lot of mechanical sympathy, and i was able to hear and feel what the engine was doing, change gear at the top of the torque curve etc etc. Didn't help me win races - too fat !
Haha- that was bloody funny!:lol::D
Marco.
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 17:02
You need to be *certain* how the product works, and that you're measuring for the right thing (i.e. the phenomenon you're attempting to prove exists, or the opposite), otherwise you can't use those measurements as proof of that, or of the efficacy of the device in question.
Marco you seem to be needing to have measurements to give credence to these boxes working, or at least something from the manufacturers to confirm they work. Do you need to know how your amplifier works to enjoy it?
What's wrong with going back to ears, or at least the testimony of others?
I can understand most people are not going to fork out just to try these.
Where does the manufacturer specifically say that - could you link to it please? I must've missed it.
Even so, it doesn't necessarily mean that's what this device is *actually* doing [after all, it's only their CLAIM] - and if you don't know exactly what it's doing, or adding/removing, (as evidenced by the previous discussion between two of our resident EEs, AnthonyTD and Firebottle), then how can you successfully measure for it?
Measure away, for the effects RFI, but that might not necessarily tell you what you need to know!;)
Marco.
Our solution to this problem is the Coherent Systems RTZ (Return To Zero) passive grounding system which simply converts any unwanted (and undesired) high frequency energy to heat which can be dissipated through the case. The RTZ connects in to each of your audio devices, therefore it does not change/limit or effect the equipment it is attached to other than greatly lower the high frequency noises in the device.
So that's the definitive solution, eh... Ok, where do I sign?:eyebrows:;)
Marco.
Marco you seem to be needing to have measurements to give credence to these boxes working, or at least something from the manufacturers to confirm they work. Do you need to know how your amplifier works to enjoy it?
What's wrong with going back to ears, or at least the testimony of others?
Nothing whatsoever, Alan. That's not what I'm saying, so I'm surprised you've reached that conclusion, especially when you know how much of an 'ears first' person I am!
There's nothing wrong with drilling down into the details though, and applying some objectivity. I'm not disputing any testimonies. You hear what you hear:)
Marco.
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 17:19
No conclusion reached, that's why I said 'seem to be needing', just checking :D
AJSki2fly
01-02-2019, 17:33
Hi Julian.
Nope, you have to take some proper steps to (as far as possible) remove any expectation bias.
We're all susceptible to it, especially when in the company of enthusiastic users of the product in question, keen to show off their 'new toy' - and I wouldn't want to be paying £800 for *anything*, until I was 110% convinced that any benefit I heard was a) big enough to justify the outlay in the first place, and b) real:)
Marco.
Here you go Marco, this is what I am thinking of doing.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/11/interesting-ground-box-project.html
I have a 2 bottle wine box so will order a couple of good binding posts £6 approx, order some pure copper plate about £10-12 cut to size, and order some mixed natural ORE ( I am trying to find a source for this). Assemble and connect to the pieces of equipment you want to try it on to spare RCA inputs on the units, the connection is done to the negative only of the RCA plug (this is the outside that usually connected to the screening of a cable).
I take no responsibility for any weirdness that may occur or anyone wiring up cables incorrectly and damaging equipment.
No conclusion reached, that's why I said 'seem to be needing', just checking :D
Good, because you should know me by now!;)
My personal position is simply that, as with *anything* else in audio, cables, mains filters, stands, grounding boxes or whatever... Nothing gets used in my system unless *I* am 100% convinced it does something positive, which *I* consider as being worthwhile and beneficial.
Other people's testimonies on this device and others like it, whilst interesting to read and something I'd always encourage, mean nothing, in the context of *my* system. That's simply how it is:)
Marco.
Here you go Marco, this is what I am thinking of doing.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/11/interesting-ground-box-project.html
I have a 2 bottle wine box so will order a couple of good binding posts £6 approx, order some pure copper plate about £10-12 cut to size, and order some mixed natural ORE ( I am trying to find a source for this). Assemble and connect to the pieces of equipment you want to try it on to spare RCA inputs on the units, the connection is done to the negative only of the RCA plug (this is the outside that usually connected to the screening of a cable).
I take no responsibility for any weirdness that may occur or anyone wiring up cables incorrectly and damaging equipment.
Nice one, Adrian. I look forward to your write-up of the results. When it's ready, please post it in the DIY section.
Sorry, don't know what you're trying to link to, as all I got was the homepage of some hi-fi site, not to anything specific you're discussing...
Marco.
For all you nay sayers out there all I can say is go and listen to what one can do.
Tony of Coherent Systems graciously responded to my desire to 'hear' one, so I paid him a visit.
They work. Period.
The transformation was astounding, more of everything positive, nothing negative.
More later.
I paid Tony a visit today, mainly to have a listen to his PWM amps (more on that later in the relevant thread), but also to see/listen for myself what these grounding boxes can do. Essentially there is a step change/improvement in SQ. All what has been said applies - improved ability to 'see' into the music, greater definition, more space around the instruments/voices, widened soundstage. To paraphrase Sugden, the music was rescued.
Tony amply demonstrated the effect by disconnecting all cables from the ground box and, leaving preamp levels unchanged, slowly connected one-by-one the various cables (e.g. from the DAC, preamp etc) back to the grounding box. Each step there was an appreciable improvement to the SQ. My ears did not deceive me and even though there was no blind AB (or ABX) testing I feel I'm sufficiently confident of not letting expectation bias creep in.
I don't have sufficient technical knowledge to explain 'why' it is happening. I'll leave that to others to do. However I feel sure there is some good science underlying it and not simply foo.
Thanks Tony for being so generous with your time. :thumbsup:
Firebottle
01-02-2019, 18:12
Scroll down a bit Marco ....
Scroll down a bit Marco ....
Ah I see it now... Jeez, after witnessing that eyesore, anyone complaining about ads on here should wash their mouths out!:eek::doh:
Marco.
AJSki2fly
01-02-2019, 18:46
Sorry, don't know what you're trying to link to, as all I got was the homepage of some hi-fi site, not to anything specific you're discussing...
Marco.
I just tried it and it’s right, if you scroll down you will see pics of the diy grounding box
Yeah I know mate, you just have to plough through reams of shite to get there.
Marco.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVfFLTXB3k
AJSki2fly
01-02-2019, 19:04
Yeah I know mate, you just have to plough through reams of shite to get there.
Marco.
What on earth are you using, time for a
bigger screen, or perhaps you need to turn down the zoom or go to spec savers [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What on earth are you using, time for a
bigger screen, or perhaps you need to turn down the zoom or go to spec savers [emoji23]
LOL... Nope, I've got a Mac Pro laptop with a 15" screen, which is perfectly adequate for viewing most things. However, when I click on that link, about a quarter of the screen is full of ads, crammed into the middle of which (if you scroll down) are the words "Interesting ground box project", which details what you're referring to.
The page is extremely untidy looking, to the extent that I'd normally pay no attention to what was written of any importance, as the plethora of bullshit ads completely distracts from it!! Anyway, I'll read the article later:)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
01-02-2019, 20:24
Has anyone actually gone to the trouble of making one of these, Oli weren't you supposed to be having a go?
I paid Tony a visit today, mainly to have a listen to his PWM amps (more on that later in the relevant thread), but also to see/listen for myself what these grounding boxes can do. Essentially there is a step change/improvement in SQ. All what has been said applies - improved ability to 'see' into the music, greater definition, more space around the instruments/voices, widened soundstage. To paraphrase Sugden, the music was rescued.
Tony amply demonstrated the effect by disconnecting all cables from the ground box and, leaving preamp levels unchanged, slowly connected one-by-one the various cables (e.g. from the DAC, preamp etc) back to the grounding box. Each step there was an appreciable improvement to the SQ. My ears did not deceive me and even though there was no blind AB (or ABX) testing I feel I'm sufficiently confident of not letting expectation bias creep in.
I don't have sufficient technical knowledge to explain 'why' it is happening. I'll leave that to others to do. However I feel sure there is some good science underlying it and not simply foo.
Thanks Tony for being so generous with your time. :thumbsup:
Cool, it works in his system. Now take it to your system and try again.
Has anyone actually gone to the trouble of making one of these, Oli weren't you supposed to be having a go?
Maybe I’m a cynic....Oli found something on the internet that that could be the secret sauce. We may have a Bigbottle version soon.
Wakefield Turntables
01-02-2019, 20:33
It's not difficult to make one of these once you've had a look at the various "keywords".
montesquieu
01-02-2019, 20:33
I paid Tony a visit today, mainly to have a listen to his PWM amps (more on that later in the relevant thread), but also to see/listen for myself what these grounding boxes can do. Essentially there is a step change/improvement in SQ. All what has been said applies - improved ability to 'see' into the music, greater definition, more space around the instruments/voices, widened soundstage. To paraphrase Sugden, the music was rescued.
Tony amply demonstrated the effect by disconnecting all cables from the ground box and, leaving preamp levels unchanged, slowly connected one-by-one the various cables (e.g. from the DAC, preamp etc) back to the grounding box. Each step there was an appreciable improvement to the SQ. My ears did not deceive me and even though there was no blind AB (or ABX) testing I feel I'm sufficiently confident of not letting expectation bias creep in.
I don't have sufficient technical knowledge to explain 'why' it is happening. I'll leave that to others to do. However I feel sure there is some good science underlying it and not simply foo.
Thanks Tony for being so generous with your time. :thumbsup:
Looking forward to your Class D thoughts Edward.
Well that's Edward and Alan both convinced ... enough to suggest a home trial could be interesting.
Cool, it works in his system. Now take it to your system and try again.
Yeah Tony said he would lend me one, hopefully soon when he has one spare. He had several there but all spoken for. I need to drop off his amp in a week so hopefully then. But let's see.
I dunno. How would one ascertain that one 'needed' a grounding box? Surmise (based on extremely limited technical understanding) that all these SMPS thingies were injecting inaudible but deleterious 'noise' into the system? Vague discontent with how the system was sounding, and an associated guess that some sort of gizmo might cure this? (Even though other assorted gizmos have failed to do so).
It all seems a bit 'audiophilia nervosa' to me.
I dunno. How would one ascertain that one 'needed' a grounding box? Surmise (based on extremely limited technical understanding) that all these SMPS thingies were injecting inaudible but deleterious 'noise' into the system? Vague discontent with how the system was sounding, and an associated guess that some sort of gizmo might cure this? (Even though other assorted gizmos have failed to do so).
It all seems a bit 'audiophilia nervosa' to me.
People like to try to tune up their systems same as they might tune up their cars, seeing if they can get a few extra horsepower. It's part of the hobby. Don't see what the problem is with that.
People like to try to tune up their systems same as they might tune up their cars, seeing if they can get a few extra horsepower. It's part of the hobby. Don't see what the problem is with that.
I didn't say it was a problem. But if you want to tune up your car, presumably you'd have some idea where to start, and what your tuning up would achieve. Tuning up hifi systems often seems to consist of chucking money at accessories in the hope of eliminating problems that either don't actually exist, or which are caused by something that such accessories can't cure (eg room size/shape).
People like to try to tune up their systems same as they might tune up their cars, seeing if they can get a few extra horsepower. It's part of the hobby. Don't see what the problem is with that.
The big difference is that a car can be put on a dyno, or its performance accurately measured to prove that the tune up or modification has worked.
Most of the hifi foo is akin to a car being dyno'd and showing no difference in power or torque but the owner insisting it feels faster followed by saying the dyno must be faulty because his wife thinks it feels faster too.
Most of the hifi foo is akin to a car being dyno'd and showing no difference in power or torque but the owner insisting it feels faster followed by saying the dyno must be faulty because his wife thinks it feels faster too.
That sort of thing actually does happen though.
Cool, it works in his system. Now take it to your system and try again.
+1. That's the key with devices like this, as how well they might work in a particular system will down to many different factors. However, glad that Edward had a good day out at Tony's, and it'll be interesting to see what he thinks of the same item when he tries it at home:cool:
Marco.
That sort of thing actually does happen though.
Indeed it does, a classic case being drilled airboxes, they make a nice sporty induction roar so the driver thinks the car is faster, in reality it's sucking hot air in from the engine bay so is actually reducing performance in most cases, this doesn't stop the owner insisting his/her car is now faster.
AJSki2fly
02-02-2019, 07:04
The big difference is that a car can be put on a dyno, or its performance accurately measured to prove that the tune up or modification has worked.
Most of the hifi foo is akin to a car being dyno'd and showing no difference in power or torque but the owner insisting it feels faster followed by saying the dyno must be faulty because his wife thinks it feels faster too.
I think it actually is possible to measure changes, being for the better or worse. REW is free sound measurement software that will run on PC or MAC, and with a reasonable USB microphone it can quite accurately measure the output from a system. By taking a systematic approach and taking a series of sound analysis measurements it is then possible to make changes to the system or listening room and then repeat the measurements and compare the results with the originals.
The changes could be small or large, ie. swap speakers, put anti vibration feet under turntable, move soft furnishings etc. The key is to make one change at a time and re-measure, to see if the desired improvement happens. Obviously how it sounds is also of major importance, there is no point in it looking perfect on paper but not sounding how you like.
I and my friend have used the above to check the difference in speakers when upgrading and then tweaking their position to get the best out of them. This has lead to some interesting and occasionally unexpected results. However our ears agreed with what we found.
Yes, just to be clear, I haven't used one of these grounding boxes, so there are no testimonials here from me. No idea how it was perceived differently:scratch:
Marco.
My mistake, I must have been reading someone else’s testimony?
Russell
I think it actually is possible to measure changes, being for the better or worse. REW is free sound measurement software that will run on PC or MAC, and with a reasonable USB microphone it can quite accurately measure the output from a system. By taking a systematic approach and taking a series of sound analysis measurements it is then possible to make changes to the system or listening room and then repeat the measurements and compare the results with the originals.
The changes could be small or large, ie. swap speakers, put anti vibration feet under turntable, move soft furnishings etc. The key is to make one change at a time and re-measure, to see if the desired improvement happens. Obviously how it sounds is also of major importance, there is no point in it looking perfect on paper but not sounding how you like.
I and my friend have used the above to check the difference in speakers when upgrading and then tweaking their position to get the best out of them. This has lead to some interesting and occasionally unexpected results. However our ears agreed with what we found.
+1
Adam (Westlower) and I have been playing around with REW and a miniDSP usb mic and certainly found some interesting results after applying a convolution filter. For me a noticeable improvement in response (smoother, more open) and hence more enjoyable. Next step is to do what you have been doing - incrementally change things and see the response.
AJSki2fly
02-02-2019, 11:29
+1
Adam (Westlower) and I have been playing around with REW and a miniDSP usb mic and certainly found some interesting results. For me a noticeable improvement in response (smoother, more open) and hence more enjoyable. Next step is to do what you have been doing - incrementally change things and see the response.
Yes Edward, it is IMO the most sensible way to try and get some real measurements to assess changes. I used to work in Wolfson Sound and Vibration lab many years ago and it taught me to measure stuff and then listen make a change re-measure, listen again and then change again and repeat until the improvement wanted was found.
What I found very interesting is that sometimes what seem insignificant changes, like just moving a chair a few feet can have a big impact on the low end frequencies. I also used this method to find the best position for speakers and listening area, (in fact two places), when changing speakers these also changed subtly. Some would find it tedious to do but it do give good results IMO.
Just to respond to this:
To go off topic for a moment....I spent a few hours off grid yesterday. I unplugged as many smps wall warts and devices with smps inbuilt as I could, turned off the WiFi, all phones and tablets / PC’s etc. I initially thought there was an improvement but later on as I started to plug stuff back in I had to be honest and note the sound was much the same as before.
If there was an improvement it must be very subtle to none existent as it eluded me. I can only draw the conclusion that my system seems to be immune from any major effects of smps and RFI...which is quite comforting as its one less thing to be concerned about. One positive is I’ve removed a number of unused wall wart PSUs and computers that I no longer require, going on the principle that even if I can’t detect an improvement less is more!
Interesting, Neal, and thanks for trying that:)
In my experience though with these things, the best way to assess if there's any difference or not, is to live with it one way, for at least a week (so no wi-fi, or any of that other SMPS pish you've got plugged in;)), spending that time listening to a selection of tracks you know well, and which you will use to make the comparison later when you switch the wi-fi back on, and plug everything back in...
Then *at that point*, once the switch has been made, listen to the same music again and see whether you can detect a difference. Of course, I know it would unfortunately be completely impractical to do!:cool:
Marco.
P.S Dennis, I haven't forgotten about you. I shall comment on that excellent post of yours later.
I may not know how it works, but a few things that I don’t think it does. If it were actually routing extra RF into the ground plain, then a regular FM antenna attached to the same point should work even better! And I’m guessing it doesn’t.
And whatever is in that box, it isn’t ground. Not unless it’s as big as a planet. It merely attaches to ground, you can’t cut the ground pin off your power cord and remain safe.
And I’m no engineer, but there should be some way to measure if any electrons are moving in that ground cable to the box, while attached to a regular stereo, just as one would normally use it, if an electron moves in that wire, it should be measurable. And if no electrons are moving in that wire, then we have a huge problem.
The writeup from CAD says the rocks are quartz crystals that dissipate high frequencies into heat. Ok, I can get my head around that. But wouldn’t it be even better if you used quartz crystal components that have electronic leads made onto them? Like seen on clocks and radio transmitters.
The question is not does it work, the question is can it work for less than £800? The fact that it’s a single ended device attached to signal ground points toward simplicity. But that’s one thing about technology, one day you’re on top of the world and everyone wants your product! Until something better comes along, and you can’t give your stuff away. If these devices really work, how long before the mystery is solved, and preamp makers incorporate the technology into their preamps, so there is no more need for a Ground Box? Or, are there preamps in the world that already negate the need for it? I’m guessing that the effect will vary from preamp to preamp? If not, then does that mean that all preamps are fundamentally flawed? So many questions!
Russell
Back in the day when AVI designed 'separates' gear, the designer, being a bit of an rf expert, seemed to be able to design his preamps so they were pretty immune to rf issues on the mains, as witnessed in tests of his earlier Kelvin Labs amps as measured by Paul Miller yonks ago.
P.S. I still like what clip-on ferrites do. Very cheap to buy, easy to fit and remove and they do actually have a measurable difference when used. Just one on the master mains cable to a distribution block can be of audible benefit sometimes and adding more makes less and less of a difference I found. I still use these automatically on any supply cable to an smps and on the exit leads of the one or two wall warts we have here.
These 'grounding boxes' are frightningly expensive though and I don't think any proper objective tests are available to back up subjective findings, these latter feelings so easily influenced by external situations. Sometimes, I find it a damned good idea to do what the poster above did and that's to remove ALL of these expensive add-ons and listen again for a while, just to see if these things really do make a difference. Quite often they don't, and older audio peeps like me who've been around the audio block a few times have seen these fads come and go quite often over the last forty years or so since the modern 'Hi End' started - imo and ime.
You just reminded me to get some of those ferrite clips. Have ordered a pack of them, various sizes. Don't think I've got a problem that needs solving but for a tenner got to be worth a try.
Firebottle
02-02-2019, 16:03
...If it were actually routing extra RF into the ground plain, then a regular FM antenna attached to the same point should work even better!
....But wouldn’t it be even better if you used quartz crystal components that have electronic leads made onto them? Like seen on clocks and radio transmitters.
....If not, then does that mean that all preamps are fundamentally flawed?
You are somewhat wide of the mark here Russell.
A regular FM antenna is in this context a rather narrow band device, a very wideband solution is needed.
A quartz crystal with leads on is even more narrow band, they are usually made for one very specific frequency.
Nobody is saying any preamp is fundamentally flawed, just that they will likely sound better with all this low level crud removed>
MikeMusic
02-02-2019, 17:27
Ferrite chokes make a wonderful difference for almost nothing.
Cheapest upgrade around
Tony brought his grounding box to me.
Belles Pre, Rega Isis CD
The magic worked
Later
TAD CD/Pre/DAC, TAD Power Amp
The magic worked
Ferrite chokes make a wonderful difference for almost nothing.
Cheapest upgrade around
I'm anticipating a difference on a scale running from none whatsoever to barely perceptible. But if there is a wonderful difference I will certainly say so. They should arrive tomorrow with any luck.
I'm anticipating a difference on a scale running from none whatsoever to barely perceptible. But if there is a wonderful difference I will certainly say so. They should arrive tomorrow with any luck.
It will depend on where you fit them, and how clean the mains coming into your house is. Fit them to the source, i.e. on the output of any SMPSs (if you have any). One fitted on the input lead to a mains distribution block (again, if you use one for your system) is a good idea, as this will help remove the 'crud' introduced onto the mains from any neighbours who share the same phase as you and may also use a plethora of SMPSs.
The ferrite clamps are cheap, and if they don't prove to be of much help they won't do any harm either and can be removed.
To start with, one on any block feeding source components - or especially your vintage CD player.
Forgive any auto suggestion, but the bass is where you could start. If you have a large enough one, try the Krell. May be something, or nothing at all.. back in the day, my ATC 100A's *seemed* to be slightly better in the bass with one ferrite on each mains cable. The TDA1541 CD player with the usual rf/ultrasonic muck these chipset based machines exhibit, also beneffitted (I go one better and use either a Roxburgh 6A mains filter or a similar one Glenn Croft used to make rated at 4A - Ben Duncan in a HFN article suggested a 10x margin for such devices on the gear they're connected to I remember).
Ferrites DO make a measurable change, but obviously, this may not be necessary or even audible. For bigger money if you really want to spend serious dosh on such things, a balanced mains box from Airlink and others, can do some good to the music reproduction depending on where you are - at least it did for me, using the very same box that Macca here rejected as making a small difference, but not necessarily one he liked at the time I recall.
I forgot to say, the original Caiman supply Stan B kindly sent me for the second QED Digit supply (I think on the output chip) has a large ferrite on its mains cable wrapped around a couple of turns and also, an 'S-Booster' on its output, which I felt made a small positive difference. Mark Grant very kindly supplied one with size of the DC plug I wanted.
The differences these things make isn't huge at all and the more you fit, the less change each one makes, although some people like me have fitted them to most mains cables for no real rhyme or reason (more's better, right? :rolleyes: )
Martin, if you don't find any difference and want to shift 'em on for a tenner or so, I'll take them...
Wakefield Turntables
02-02-2019, 18:48
What happens if you use these grounding boxes with something like a PS audio P10 regenerator? How much can be attributed to the grounding box and how much to the P10?
MikeMusic
03-02-2019, 11:57
I'm anticipating a difference on a scale running from none whatsoever to barely perceptible. But if there is a wonderful difference I will certainly say so. They should arrive tomorrow with any luck.
I expected barely perceptible.
Very pleasantly surprised.
Only on non hifi kit like Broadband router, PSU for laptop etc
MikeMusic
03-02-2019, 11:59
What happens if you use these grounding boxes with something like a PS audio P10 regenerator? How much can be attributed to the grounding box and how much to the P10?
Dunno
Replaced my P10 with the Audio Magic conditioner
jandl100
03-02-2019, 12:04
I bought a bundle of those ferrite clamp doodads, didn't hear 1 single iota of difference. At all. Deaf as a post, me. :(
I do take all my hifi leccy from an Airlink 3KVA balanced transformer, maybe that makes a difference?
Stratmangler
03-02-2019, 12:17
I do take all my hifi leccy from an Airlink 3KVA balanced transformer, maybe that makes a difference?
The Airlink might well be the difference.
jandl100
03-02-2019, 12:23
.... so if any one wants a bundle of ferrite clamps, just PM me your name and address. :)
jandl100
03-02-2019, 13:36
.... so if any one wants a bundle of ferrite clamps, just PM me your name and address. :)
Whoosh!! - and they are taken. :)
Snoopdog
03-02-2019, 14:32
A big thanks to Tony of Coherent Systems for venturing out on our treacherous roads yesterday with his goodies-laden white van!
After visiting Mike (Mikemusic) and emptying his wallet, he proceeded on to Alresford, deepest Hampshire, to demo his RTZ3 box and various grades of cables (after Mike had severely depleted his stock) and make a comparison with the loan Entreq Silver Tellus box and four Entreq Eartha Apollo (silver) cables that has resided in my system for the past couple of weeks.
Initially, we listened to the system with the Entreq components still connected (two XLR cables from the Silver Tellus box to the Vivaldi DAC analogue outputs, one RCA phono to the Vivaldi transport SPDIF output and one RCA phono to a vacant CJ GAT2 preamp input).
Three well-known tracks were used for reference (1. After the Goldrush, from Natalie Merchant live in concert. 2. Vaughan Williams Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, a Nimbus recording by William Boughton/English String Orchestra. 3. The Blue - David Gilmour live in Gdansk).
The Enreq Silver Tellus and Apollo cables (£1750 + £540 per cable RRP) was then disconnected and we listened to the system again, concentrating on the Gilmour track.
This confirmed my evaluation over the course of the last fortnight, that I had struggled to hear an improvement in sound with the Enreq kit connected!
We both thought that the system was preferable without the Entreq.
Next up came the all-new silky-black Coherent RTZ3 box. 15Kgs on four Black Ravioli pads, nestling comfortably on one of the shelves of my rack, looking discrete and could even be mistaken for a power supply of some sort!
Using just the same David Gilmour track, Tony proceeded to connect one of his starter cables (£250 a pop) from the RTZ3 to the SPDIF output on the DAC.
Definitely an improvement in palpability, stereo image and reduced system noise floor!
Tony then added more cables, one at a time, until Transport, DAC, Upsampler and preamp were connected to the RTZ3.
I noticed an audible improvement each time a cable was added and the aspects of improvement that I mentioned, increased each time and also when the base model cables were swapped with Tony's CR range (£600 a pop) and finally when a BD cable (£900) was connected to the Vivaldi Transport SPDIF output!
At the end of our listening session (which began about midday and ended at 7pm) we returned to the Natalie Merchant track and wow! This was now sounding more vibrant, with deeper bass, clearer, more focused singing and lower noise - Very impressive for a live recording!
Tony then disconnected his cables, but I stopped him when he laid hands on the RTZ3 box, which I am keeping! Coherent CR grounding cables will follow in due course as soon as Tony has replenished his stock (I just hope he comes back to me without going via Mike, who is feverishly buying up Tony's cables as swiftly as he can make them!
Having heard the RTZ3 box (£2800) at Tony's about three weeks ago, I was impressed enough by what I had heard it do in his demo system to request a further home audition. I didn't expect Tony to give up his valuable time to visit me personally as I was quite prepared to collect the demo RTZ3 box and cables from Gerrards Cross.
However, Tony does provide valuable consultation and critical analysis of customers systems and this is all part of the Coherent package of ensuring which, if any RTZ box is right for you and which grade of Coherent cables will work best with your system.
My investigation of competing grounding boxes has proved to me that they work (some not as well as others) and that they are well-worth adding to one's system.
How do they work? I don't profess to know, nor do I crave an explanation or scientific measurements to support the manufacturers claims! I have used my own ears and what I have heard is a substantial improvement in sound quality and musical enjoyment which has persuaded me to part with my cash (as a pensioner on a fixed income, I will now be eating cat food for the rest of the winter)!
A solid "thumbs up" for Tony Sallis and his marvellous RTZ grounding box!
Snoopdog
03-02-2019, 14:35
At home in my system rack and looking ............. black!:)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4843/46245623614_6483b50cb7_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dsyUJb)fullsizeoutput_1580 (https://flic.kr/p/2dsyUJb) by Steve Coward (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152650984@N05/), on Flickr
Snoopdog
03-02-2019, 14:41
Looking discrete and for all the world like a power supply, my new silky black Coherent Systems RTZ3 grounding box.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4869/46918041592_c4f980bc9e_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2etZeaA)fullsizeoutput_1582 (https://flic.kr/p/2etZeaA) by Steve Coward (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152650984@N05/), on Flickr
Hi Steve
As you only bought the RTZ box, I guess you are running with your own 'earth' cables. What are they and how much does it compromise the overall performance of the RTZ?
Thanks
I bought a bundle of those ferrite clamp doodads, didn't hear 1 single iota of difference. At all. Deaf as a post, me. :(
I do take all my hifi leccy from an Airlink 3KVA balanced transformer, maybe that makes a difference?
You only needed one to start with Jerry. If your mains is great then fantastic and I can vouch for a BMU, although why you need a 3KVA one for a domestic stereo is beyond me (but if you can handle the size, cost, noise potential and weight of a fuggin' huge transformer, that's fine ;)).. When I started with all this in the early 90's, the mains in Luton was shit of the highest order and all this guff made an audible difference...
Bigman80
03-02-2019, 15:35
A big thanks to Tony of Coherent Systems for venturing out on our treacherous roads yesterday with his goodies-laden white van!
After visiting Mike (Mikemusic) and emptying his wallet, he proceeded on to Alresford, deepest Hampshire, to demo his RTZ3 box and various grades of cables (after Mike had severely depleted his stock) and make a comparison with the loan Entreq Silver Tellus box and four Entreq Eartha Apollo (silver) cables that has resided in my system for the past couple of weeks.
Initially, we listened to the system with the Entreq components still connected (two XLR cables from the Silver Tellus box to the Vivaldi DAC analogue outputs, one RCA phono to the Vivaldi transport SPDIF output and one RCA phono to a vacant CJ GAT2 preamp input).
Three well-known tracks were used for reference (1. After the Goldrush, from Natalie Merchant live in concert. 2. Vaughan Williams Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, a Nimbus recording by William Boughton/English String Orchestra. 3. The Blue - David Gilmour live in Gdansk).
The Enreq Silver Tellus and Apollo cables (£1750 + £540 per cable RRP) was then disconnected and we listened to the system again, concentrating on the Gilmour track.
This confirmed my evaluation over the course of the last fortnight, that I had struggled to hear an improvement in sound with the Enreq kit connected!
We both thought that the system was preferable without the Entreq.
Next up came the all-new silky-black Coherent RTZ3 box. 15Kgs on four Black Ravioli pads, nestling comfortably on one of the shelves of my rack, looking discrete and could even be mistaken for a power supply of some sort!
Using just the same David Gilmour track, Tony proceeded to connect one of his starter cables (£250 a pop) from the RTZ3 to the SPDIF output on the DAC.
Definitely an improvement in palpability, stereo image and reduced system noise floor!
Tony then added more cables, one at a time, until Transport, DAC, Upsampler and preamp were connected to the RTZ3.
I noticed an audible improvement each time a cable was added and the aspects of improvement that I mentioned, increased each time and also when the base model cables were swapped with Tony's CR range (£600 a pop) and finally when a BD cable (£900) was connected to the Vivaldi Transport SPDIF output!
At the end of our listening session (which began about midday and ended at 7pm) we returned to the Natalie Merchant track and wow! This was now sounding more vibrant, with deeper bass, clearer, more focused singing and lower noise - Very impressive for a live recording!
Tony then disconnected his cables, but I stopped him when he laid hands on the RTZ3 box, which I am keeping! Coherent CR grounding cables will follow in due course as soon as Tony has replenished his stock (I just hope he comes back to me without going via Mike, who is feverishly buying up Tony's cables as swiftly as he can make them!
Having heard the RTZ3 box (£2800) at Tony's about three weeks ago, I was impressed enough by what I had heard it do in his demo system to request a further home audition. I didn't expect Tony to give up his valuable time to visit me personally as I was quite prepared to collect the demo RTZ3 box and cables from Gerrards Cross.
However, Tony does provide valuable consultation and critical analysis of customers systems and this is all part of the Coherent package of ensuring which, if any RTZ box is right for you and which grade of Coherent cables will work best with your system.
My investigation of competing grounding boxes has proved to me that they work (some not as well as others) and that they are well-worth adding to one's system.
How do they work? I don't profess to know, nor do I crave an explanation or scientific measurements to support the manufacturers claims! I have used my own ears and what I have heard is a substantial improvement in sound quality and musical enjoyment which has persuaded me to part with my cash (as a pensioner on a fixed income, I will now be eating cat food for the rest of the winter)!
A solid "thumbs up" for Tony Sallis and his marvellous RTZ grounding box!Very interesting, however I seriously doubt the effect would be as great in an analogue system.
Did you try this?
Wakefield Turntables
03-02-2019, 15:49
I'm sure these work well with some people's systems but the cost is astronomical considering how easy and cheap they are to make. :rolleyes: Several thousand pounds for one box and then several cables costing many hundreds. I wonder if there is a direct correlation between the money spent and the positive perceived effect coming through your speakers.
I'm sure these work well with some people's systems but the cost is astronomical considering how easy and cheap they are to make. :rolleyes: Several thousand pounds for one box and then several cables costing many hundreds. I wonder if there is a direct correlation between the money spent and the positive perceived effect coming through your speakers.
We don't know that until we know how they work and that's not been established so far.
Plus there seems to be more than one type of design. Paul said the Entreq did nothing in his (quite tasty) system but reported the same thing with the Coherent box as everyone else so far, an immediate and obvious improvement.
montesquieu
03-02-2019, 16:12
We don't know that until we know how they work and that's not been established so far.
Plus there seems to be more than one type of design. Paul said the Entreq did nothing in his (quite tasty) system but reported the same thing with the Coherent box as everyone else so far, an immediate and obvious improvement.
Certainly got me intrigued. It's the kind of thing I've been leaving till I feel I'm 'finished' (which might never happen of course though I feel I'm getting close). I'm not sure it's worth the effort till you are pretty sure there aren't improvements to be had by changing major components. But this thread has certainly made me want to hear one.
We don't know that until we know how they work and that's not been established so far.
Plus there seems to be more than one type of design. Paul said the Entreq did nothing in his (quite tasty) system but reported the same thing with the Coherent box as everyone else so far, an immediate and obvious improvement.
You don't really need to know how it works in order to make a 'Chinese copy'. All you need to do is take one apart and copy the dimensions and shape of the internal metal plate(s), plus of course, knowing what the mineral filling is. The latter is the most difficult thing to determine: there is a lot of speculation on the web as to the composition of the mineral 'cocktail', with talk of ferroelectric and/or ferromagnetic materials being used.
Snoopdog
03-02-2019, 16:52
Bumpy,
To answer your question, I currently have the four Entreq Apollo Eartha cables plugged into the RTZ3. Two XLR to the LR analogue outputs from my DAC, one RCA phono to the vacant transport SPDIF output and one RCA phono connected to an unused preamp input.
The improvement in sound quality is easily discernible, using the RTZ3, which was not the case using these same cables and system connections into the Entreq Silver Tellus ground box. However, the sound I heard yesterday, employing the Coherent grades of cables, was far superior in the areas I have previously described. I am awaiting an email from Tony, setting out various options (cable-wise) together with suggestions for which connections (and I have many unused inputs/outputs - RCA, BNC, USB, RJ45, XLR) might offer the "best bang for my buck" with a minimum initial purchase of say, five cables.
Bigman80
Your question about analogue is valid and one for me to explore in time.
Vinyl replay is not my prime consideration, albeit I have a large record collection from the 70's, 80' and early 90's. I also inherited my brother's vinyl collection when he passed away in 2016.
Once I get the Coherent cables from Tony, I will definitely experiment with connecting different digital inputs/outputs on my system and ultimately, I will investigate connection options on my phono stage (I do have two XLR outputs available as I have a single-ended preamp) and report back my findings.
For now though, I am mightily impressed with what the Coherent RTZ3 box can do for my digital replay system (where intuition tells me, the greatest gains are to be made, spurient noise reduction wise)!
Anyone following this thread should be reminded that Tony's box deals with ground planes in audio equipment. It does not connect to the mains, has nothing to do with earthing or the Protective Earth in a domestic electrical mains system.
All cables are only connected to the ground sides of the plugs and the signal prong does nothing other than aid stability of the connection!
Before anyone asks, I do not know or really care how it works. I have not scientific data or measurements to support my assertion, that, in two systems now, Tony's and mine, I have heard the same solid performance increase and that is good enough for me (maybe not some others)!
Berni217
03-02-2019, 18:22
I have an all analog system and have had great results with the Entreq Silver Minimus + 2 cables from Tony.
It does not need to cost a lot of cash either!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hi Oli
A very fair and Valud question especially as vinyl has a far inferior signal to noise ratio around 78dB in the best decks available however it is purely about the results that customers are happy with.
Currently of the fifty+ units which are in the public domain I would suggest that a solid 40% are purely vinyl or R2R based systems, most of those are valve / vinyl systems ranging from modest to well tasty as Macca would to discibe them
Berni's system is all analogue and a very nice one it is as well the grounding system works well there to
Snoopdogs system has a solid state power amp with a valve hybrid pre amp not pwm in sight. With Steve's system we also started out with a subwoofer switched into the system after we had finished running through the demo the sub was not connected and producing a fair more cohesive and engaging sound imho
Barry
Having had equipment manufactued in China only to have a copy 'appear' with a couple of months as a cheap knock off is more common than you think!
Unlike the other grounding boxes that are on the market these use no minerals what so ever or pizeobelectro materials or tormalene etc, no bus bars either.
Creating and finding the exact materials used could be problematic however as with everything if people are determined enough they will attempt it. These units are designed and manufactured here in the UK 100% as are the cables nothing is outsourced. We have our own manufacturing facility here in the UK my background is in aerospace engineering.
However results can vary from system to system and using them in a well balanced system is an important consideration imho that does not mean expensive, it means well balanced and even handed.
Bigman80
03-02-2019, 19:00
Hi Oli
A very fair and Valud question especially as vinyl has a far inferior signal to noise ratio around 78dB in the best decks available however it is purely about the results that customers are happy with.
Currently of the fifty+ units which are in the public domain I would suggest that a solid 40% are purely vinyl or R2R based systems, most of those are valve / vinyl systems ranging from modest to well tasty as Macca would to discibe them
Berni's system is all analogue and a very nice one it is as well the grounding system works well there to
Snoopdogs system has a solid state power amp with a valve hybrid pre amp not pwm in sight. With Steve's system we also started out with a subwoofer switched into the system after we had finished running through the demo the sub was not connected and producing a fair more cohesive and engaging sound imho
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the reply. I am not doubting the findings of the owners and i agree, if the customer is happy, you've done all you set out to achieve. I do doubt that anyone would shell out £1k on this thing if they weren't convinced of what they heard.
If you get up to the West Midlands for any reason, let me know. I'd love a listen.
Oliver
Bigman80
03-02-2019, 19:03
Bumpy,
To answer your question, I currently have the four Entreq Apollo Eartha cables plugged into the RTZ3. Two XLR to the LR analogue outputs from my DAC, one RCA phono to the vacant transport SPDIF output and one RCA phono connected to an unused preamp input.
The improvement in sound quality is easily discernible, using the RTZ3, which was not the case using these same cables and system connections into the Entreq Silver Tellus ground box. However, the sound I heard yesterday, employing the Coherent grades of cables, was far superior in the areas I have previously described. I am awaiting an email from Tony, setting out various options (cable-wise) together with suggestions for which connections (and I have many unused inputs/outputs - RCA, BNC, USB, RJ45, XLR) might offer the "best bang for my buck" with a minimum initial purchase of say, five cables.
Bigman80
Your question about analogue is valid and one for me to explore in time.
Vinyl replay is not my prime consideration, albeit I have a large record collection from the 70's, 80' and early 90's. I also inherited my brother's vinyl collection when he passed away in 2016.
Once I get the Coherent cables from Tony, I will definitely experiment with connecting different digital inputs/outputs on my system and ultimately, I will investigate connection options on my phono stage (I do have two XLR outputs available as I have a single-ended preamp) and report back my findings.
For now though, I am mightily impressed with what the Coherent RTZ3 box can do for my digital replay system (where intuition tells me, the greatest gains are to be made, spurient noise reduction wise)!
Anyone following this thread should be reminded that Tony's box deals with ground planes in audio equipment. It does not connect to the mains, has nothing to do with earthing or the Protective Earth in a domestic electrical mains system.
All cables are only connected to the ground sides of the plugs and the signal prong does nothing other than aid stability of the connection!
Before anyone asks, I do not know or really care how it works. I have not scientific data or measurements to support my assertion, that, in two systems now, Tony's and mine, I have heard the same solid performance increase and that is good enough for me (maybe not some others)!
Hi Steve,
Ok, i'll await your findings :)
Bigman80
03-02-2019, 19:07
I have an all analog system and have had great results with the Entreq Silver Minimus + 2 cables from Tony.
It does not need to cost a lot of cash either!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Well, seeing as you have a Phonomac tonearm, i can only assume you have a good ear;)
I'm open to this idea but as analogue is my primary source, i felt it was a worthy question.
Stratmangler
03-02-2019, 20:07
Whoosh!! - and they are taken. :)
Where did you apply them?
On your audio kit?
You are somewhat wide of the mark here Russell.
A regular FM antenna is in this context a rather narrow band device, a very wideband solution is needed.
A quartz crystal with leads on is even more narrow band, they are usually made for one very specific frequency.
Nobody is saying any preamp is fundamentally flawed, just that they will likely sound better with all this low level crud removed>
As I’ve said, I’m not an engineer, but doesn’t RFI stand for radio frequency interference? So, the theory that these devises are somehow injecting RFI noise into the ground plain, would that not mean that an FM antenna would be tuned to pick those RFI noises up better than a box of rocks? In essence, I’m saying I do not believe injecting RFI is the reason these boxes work. As Marco has stated, injecting noise seems counter intuitive. Yes dither is introduced into digital signals, but that is in entirely different ball of wax. If injecting RFI was the reason these boxes work, it should be much easier to accomplish.
Perhaps the part about the quarts clock crystals might be far fetched, but if we knew what frequencies we were shooting for, then we would know which crystals to select. Just dumping a load of random crystals into a box seems rather unscientific, and the frequencies it absorbs could be random from sample to sample.
So, if you find how how these things work, and you could incorporate these findings into a preamp of your own design, that would render the external box irrelevant, would you not? And if you did, would it not make your preamp better than all others who do not observe these findings? And would that not make all other preamps inherently flawed? The fact that these boxes work, does it not indicate that there is a shortcoming in our understanding of how to design a preamp?
The thought that it doesn’t matter how they work! Just spend your £800 and enjoy! Is a very short sighted view. (And I’m not saying you or anyone here thinks this way) Finding out why it works, to quantify what is going on here, is important. It could change the way audio gear is designed from this moment forward. If I were a preamp designer, I would be very concerned about why these things work, and anxious to improve my designs with the knowledge. But that’s just me.
Russell
anthonyTD
04-02-2019, 12:11
From Tony's last post;
Unlike the other grounding boxes that are on the market these use no minerals what so ever or pizeobelectro materials or tormalene etc, no bus bars either.
As I’ve said, I’m not an engineer, but doesn’t RFI stand for radio frequency interference? So, the theory that these devises are somehow injecting RFI noise into the ground plain, would that not mean that an FM antenna would be tuned to pick those RFI noises up better than a box of rocks? In essence, I’m saying I do not believe injecting RFI is the reason these boxes work. As Marco has stated, injecting noise seems counter intuitive. Yes dither is introduced into digital signals, but that is in entirely different ball of wax. If injecting RFI was the reason these boxes work, it should be much easier to accomplish.
Perhaps the part about the quarts clock crystals might be far fetched, but if we knew what frequencies we were shooting for, then we would know which crystals to select. Just dumping a load of random crystals into a box seems rather unscientific, and the frequencies it absorbs could be random from sample to sample.
So, if you find how how these things work, and you could incorporate these findings into a preamp of your own design, that would render the external box irrelevant, would you not? And if you did, would it not make your preamp better than all others who do not observe these findings? And would that not make all other preamps inherently flawed? The fact that these boxes work, does it not indicate that there is a shortcoming in our understanding of how to design a preamp?
The thought that it doesn’t matter how they work! Just spend your £800 and enjoy! Is a very short sighted view. (And I’m not saying you or anyone here thinks this way) Finding out why it works, to quantify what is going on here, is important. It could change the way audio gear is designed from this moment forward. If I were a preamp designer, I would be very concerned about why these things work, and anxious to improve my designs with the knowledge. But that’s just me.
Russell
As I’ve said, I’m not an engineer, but doesn’t RFI stand for radio frequency interference? So, the theory that these devises are somehow injecting RFI noise into the ground plain, would that not mean that an FM antenna would be tuned to pick those RFI noises up better than a box of rocks? In essence, I’m saying I do not believe injecting RFI is the reason these boxes work. As Marco has stated, injecting noise seems counter intuitive. Yes dither is introduced into digital signals, but that is in entirely different ball of wax. If injecting RFI was the reason these boxes work, it should be much easier to accomplish.
Perhaps the part about the quarts clock crystals might be far fetched, but if we knew what frequencies we were shooting for, then we would know which crystals to select. Just dumping a load of random crystals into a box seems rather unscientific, and the frequencies it absorbs could be random from sample to sample.
So, if you find how how these things work, and you could incorporate these findings into a preamp of your own design, that would render the external box irrelevant, would you not? And if you did, would it not make your preamp better than all others who do not observe these findings? And would that not make all other preamps inherently flawed? The fact that these boxes work, does it not indicate that there is a shortcoming in our understanding of how to design a preamp?
The thought that it doesn’t matter how they work! Just spend your £800 and enjoy! Is a very short sighted view. (And I’m not saying you or anyone here thinks this way) Finding out why it works, to quantify what is going on here, is important. It could change the way audio gear is designed from this moment forward. If I were a preamp designer, I would be very concerned about why these things work, and anxious to improve my designs with the knowledge. But that’s just me.
Russell
I would like to take this thinking a stage further. I call it literally thinking out the box :)
I am the first to support the notion that normal interconnects and speaker wires appear to have sonic differences despite a lack of science to support it.
BUT I cant understand why simple 'earthing cables' make a difference to the performance of these grounding boxes. So let me propose the theory that all cables in your system contribute to changing/draining RFI (or whatever is causing the reduction in SQ). Some do it better than others and get a good reputation.
So, in the case of the grounding boxes, there is something going on in the box, but the cables are contributing as well. Perhaps this is why Entreq have so many (expensive) add-ons to their boxes.
Firebottle
04-02-2019, 13:30
^^^^ Yes.
IMO.
cyclopse
04-02-2019, 14:22
The audiophile community also like to upgrade the 'feet' on their Entreq boxes to something like Stillpoints. They say this also has an audio enhancement.
The audiophile community also like to upgrade the 'feet' on their Entreq boxes to something like Stillpoints. They say this also has an audio enhancement.
They use them everywhere.
I think it's what you do when you are in the enviable position where you have run out of hi-fi equipment to buy before you have run out of money to spend on it. For 99.9 % of us it's the other way round. :D
Snoopdog
04-02-2019, 15:31
I would like to take this thinking a stage further. I call it literally thinking out the box :)
I am the first to support the notion that normal interconnects and speaker wires appear to have sonic differences despite a lack of science to support it.
BUT I cant understand why simple 'earthing cables' make a difference to the performance of these grounding boxes. So let me propose the theory that all cables in your system contribute to changing/draining RFI (or whatever is causing the reduction in SQ). Some do it better than others and get a good reputation.
So, in the case of the grounding boxes, there is something going on in the box, but the cables are contributing as well. Perhaps this is why Entreq have so many (expensive) add-ons to their boxes.
Chris,
I too, found it difficult to get my head around this!
Having come to terms with the fact that grounding boxes from different manufacturers contribute to an improvement in sound quality (some better than others and I only really have personal experience of three - Entreq, Coherent Systems RTZ and SGS), I really struggled with the proposition that different grades of connecting cables, which are not carrying the musical signal, can have such a significant and differing effect when connected between the same system component and a grounding box!
As previously reported, I have had the long term home loan of an Entreq Silver Tellus with four of their quite serious (silver) cables and have played about with these, connecting to different digital and analogue separates. I consider myself familiar with the Entreq effect.
In two separate environments, Tony's system and mine I had demonstrated the superior, IMHO, qualities of the RTZ3 box. What I was not prepared for was the significant improvement in sound quality by moving through Tony's range of grounding cables. He stated that they were all of copper origin, but with different application of shielding and construction. He has made (at substantial expense) a silver version of his cable with high-end silver plugs, to prove a point. Employing this cable sounded louder in the bass, but the rest of the frequency range was not as coherent (no pun intended)! Another RTZ user who has purchased a box and cables, has reported a similar experience when auditioning the silver cable!
I found this quite confounding as silver is supposed to be a more efficient electrical conductor and one would suppose would be superior to copper in "draining" any RFI/EMI/spurious electrical currents from a piece of kit, into the grounding box!
So Tony has established to his and others that have heard it, that a silver cable does not improve on a copper cable in this particular application.
Entreq have base range cables of copper construction, moving up to silver at the top of their range. Price increases accordingly.
Chris,
I too, found it difficult to get my head around this!
Having come to terms with the fact that grounding boxes from different manufacturers contribute to an improvement in sound quality (some better than others and I only really have personal experience of three - Entreq, Coherent Systems RTZ and SGS), I really struggled with the proposition that different grades of connecting cables, which are not carrying the musical signal, can have such a significant and differing effect when connected between the same system component and a grounding box!
As previously reported, I have had the long term home loan of an Entreq Silver Tellus with four of their quite serious (silver) cables and have played about with these, connecting to different digital and analogue separates. I consider myself familiar with the Entreq effect.
In two separate environments, Tony's system and mine I had demonstrated the superior, IMHO, qualities of the RTZ3 box. What I was not prepared for was the significant improvement in sound quality by moving through Tony's range of grounding cables. He stated that they were all of copper origin, but with different application of shielding and construction. He has made (at substantial expense) a silver version of his cable with high-end silver plugs, to prove a point. Employing this cable sounded louder in the bass, but the rest of the frequency range was not as coherent (no pun intended)! Another RTZ user who has purchased a box and cables, has reported a similar experience when auditioning the silver cable!
I found this quite confounding as silver is supposed to be a more efficient electrical conductor and one would suppose would be superior to copper in "draining" any RFI/EMI/spurious electrical currents from a piece of kit, into the grounding box!
So Tony has established to his and others that have heard it, that a silver cable does not improve on a copper cable in this particular application.
Entreq have base range cables of copper construction, moving up to silver at the top of their range. Price increases accordingly.
Steve, could I get you to leave all the connecting cables in place but disconnect them where the enter the grounding box. Let us know what you find.
Snoopdog
04-02-2019, 18:03
Hmmm!
Interesting!
Everything that the grounding box brings to the table has disappeared (to be expected) but I can clearly hear French trawler men talking on their radios! :scratch:
Hmmm!
Interesting!
Everything that the grounding box brings to the table has disappeared (to be expected) but I can clearly hear French trawler men talking on their radios! :scratch:
So what is in the box? If not any of the aforementioned rocks or crystals or bus bars, then what is in it?
Quite interesting that differing cables have noticeably different effects, and the silver being uniquely different from copper. It’s hard to even imagine what’s going on here.
I too found that copper interconnects sounded better than silver ones, in my system. I’ve never tried silver speaker wires, for obvious reasons, (expensive). But, from what I’ve heard from silver in my interconnects and phono cables, it’s not for me. Perhaps this goes down to sub atomic levels? Perhaps copper electrons and silver electrons are made from different quarks? I’ll have the boys are CERN get right on that.
Russell
AJSki2fly
04-02-2019, 19:13
So what is in the box? If not any of the aforementioned rocks or crystals or bus bars, then what is in it?
Quite interesting that differing cables have noticeably different effects, and the silver being uniquely different from copper. It’s hard to even imagine what’s going on here.
I too found that copper interconnects sounded better than silver ones, in my system. I’ve never tried silver speaker wires, for obvious reasons, (expensive). But, from what I’ve heard from silver in my interconnects and phono cables, it’s not for me. Perhaps this goes down to sub atomic levels? Perhaps copper electrons and silver electrons are made from different quarks? I’ll have the boys are CERN get right on that.
Russell
I have no tv checked but I think you’ll find copper and silver have a different number of electrons, which I presume affects there conductivity properties(I no physicist, so presumably this causes a difference in electrical flow. Maybe a scientist can let us know?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
walpurgis
04-02-2019, 19:18
So what is in the box? If not any of the aforementioned rocks or crystals or bus bars, then what is in it?
Russell
Is it true that some use elephant toe nail clippings? Left foot ones I believe. The right feet have the wrong polarity. :)
Hi Russell
I am not getting into a debate as to whether silver is better sounding than copper here, the point Steve spoke about was that silver has a better conductivity rating than copper which is a known and accepted fact so would this produce a more desirable result?
The issue here is that in this particular application theory would suggest that silver would be the more preferable material to use, our trails have suggested otherwise, nothing more.
For the record a properly designed and constructed silver cables is not bright/hard or brittle, quite the opposite imho.
A guide to conductivity both electrical and thermal as well as other material properties can be seen in the link below.
Conductivity table (https://www.tibtech.com/conductivite.php?lang=en_US)
So what is in the box? If not any of the aforementioned rocks or crystals or bus bars, then what is in it?
Russell
For the price they sell, pure unobtanium, wrapped in angel wings with a sprinkling of unicorn horn powder.
Compared to Entreq I feel Tony’s offerings offer greater vfm. The guy has to make a profit and deserves a break from those constantly offended by what they perceive as ripoffs.
Without hearing the effect of these boxes, I have to say that the price for me is off putting.
£2800 for a box, and around £600 a cable. That is more than the majority of my boxes with electronics in the cost.
Sure I understand that he has to make money. It just won’t be mine....
I think the wife would divorce me if I bought a £2800 box and 5 cables at £600 a pop. Almost £6k for an improvement is sound quality? It would have to be massive to warrant that kind of expenditure.
Without hearing the effect of these boxes, I have to say that the price for me is off putting.
£2800 for a box, and around £600 a cable. That is more than the majority of my boxes with electronics in the cost.
Sure I understand that he has to make money. It just won’t be mine....
I think the wife would divorce me if I bought a £2800 box and 5 cables at £600 a pop. Almost £6k for an improvement is sound quality? It would have to be massive to warrant that kind of expenditure.
You could buy the cheapest box and use whatever cables you have lying around (god knows I have dozens of the damn things) on the grounds that some improvement is better than none. I suppose.
Or I could just continue in my blissfully ignorant way, enjoying what I already have?
Or I could just continue in my blissfully ignorant way, enjoying what I already have?
That's pretty much my plan too.
Snoopdog
04-02-2019, 20:41
Without hearing the effect of these boxes, I have to say that the price for me is off putting.
£2800 for a box, and around £600 a cable. That is more than the majority of my boxes with electronics in the cost.
Sure I understand that he has to make money. It just won’t be mine....
I think the wife would divorce me if I bought a £2800 box and 5 cables at £600 a pop. Almost £6k for an improvement is sound quality? It would have to be massive to warrant that kind of expenditure.
Kevin
The £2800 RTZ3 is the top of the range Coherent grounding box and can accept a total of eighteen cables.
This particular box is of interest to me and others who own systems with a large number of vacant connections (BNC, RCA, XLR, USB etc).
Believe me, there are a phenomenal amount of vacant connections on a four box dCS Vivaldi digital system that would benefit from having pairs of ground planes tied together.
Thos who own simpler systems, with say a streamer or CD player/DAC and an integrated amp, will likely choose a smaller RTZ box (£800 for six connections and £1600 for ten connections) The cables also start at £250, so no need to pitch in at the CR level (£600).
Tony has a clear upgrade path with generous trade-in for those seeking to upgrade at a later date.
I don't know.nor do I care whats in the box, or how it works. My ears tell me that there is a substantial improvement in sound quality.
Those who have posted that small "cottage industries" like Tony's, need to make a profit to survive and flourish are correct.
Coherent RTZ products are hand-fabricated and this takes a lot of time and effort, never mind the research and testing that goes to develop and bring a product to market.
The fit and finish of both boxes and cables are of a very high standard.
As long as you are happy, that is all that counts in my book.
Bigman80
04-02-2019, 20:59
So, objective think supplied here.
Tonys top box and cable would set me back £3k (FAS).
Judging the performance of my own system, and where I judiciously think improvements could be made.
Would I see a greater improvement in performance from
A) The TOTL grounding box
Or
B) A set of Quadral speakers (£3k worth)
I would bet heavily that the greater improvement would come from the speakers. However, if you are at that point already, I can see how buying a Grounding Box to improve things further would start to appeal.
I think the price is relative to your ability to spend at that level. Unfortunately a lot of us will be priced out of this market but that's just how it is.
julesd68
04-02-2019, 21:13
Unfortunately a lot of us will be priced out of this market but that's just how it is.
So you have the option of doing a home brew version or trying the Signal Ground Solutions boxes which start at £285.
Bigman80
04-02-2019, 21:14
So you have the option of doing a home brew version or trying the Signal Ground Solutions boxes which start at £285.Yup. Looks like that's what's left for us mortals lool
blackmetalboon
04-02-2019, 21:26
Unlike the other grounding boxes that are on the market these use no minerals what so ever or pizeobelectro materials or tormalene etc, no bus bars either.
Well, looks like we have slightly more to go on now. So it doesn’t follow the same path as Entreq’s products which appear to be filled with a mineral substance. You mention bus bars, I am assuming that your stating that the “grounding points” on your box are not connected/referenced to each other internally? Your product description states this;
“We advise strongly against connecting both signal ground of an audio component and mains earth together using the same Ground Control device would be to suggest against this directly connecting signal ground to earth could produce an increase in the very noise results you are trying to counteract. Our customer feedback has given mixed results on this method, as some equipment is manufactured with different philosophies regarding earthing and grounding techniques”
Would this be caused by a ground loop? If so, how? Surely this means that the grounding points on the RTZ box are connected/referenced internally?
So that leaves us with a passive box, which depending on the construction of the Hifi equipment it is connected to, may or may not be connected to mains earth via the “grounding cables”. I really am scratching my head as to how this would work. The description on your website states that signal grounding requires an extremely low impedance, how does a passive box connected by a single wire even achieve this?
It also goes on to say this...
“Drawing from our digital system integrations and aerospace backgrounds where electrical noise is sensitive to measuring and test equipment, these areas are actively and rigorously controlled to ensure accurate operation and correct measurement data integrity.”
With this background (plus the fact you are designing your own Class D amplifier) I’m sure you would be able to provide some measurements to back up some of the claims that the addition of your RTZ box provides.
montesquieu
04-02-2019, 23:41
I think it's what you do when you are in the enviable position where you have run out of hi-fi equipment to buy before you have run out of money to spend on it. For 99.9 % of us it's the other way round. :D
:D aint that so!
Discopants
05-02-2019, 00:18
Ive been following these grounding box threads with interest, saw some reviews on the entreq box months ago and it piqued my interest. Lots of positive reviews out there but also some that didnt notice any real gains like Steve here. I did buy a cigar box and a few other pieces a while back but i never got the minerals :ner:
Then there is this RTZ device which is targetting the same issues via different unknown mechanism with some very happy customers.
It should be noted that there are other options also out there as well as the nordost offering already mentioned. There is a company ive been reading review of on the audigon forum called perect path technologies that have 3 passive products that also target noise floor and getting rave reviews from many members over there.
Im convinced there is something in this but i need to rest my wallet for a bit after updating speakers, amp and subwoofer in the last 3 months. Then its working out the better options to try for your own system (im fully digital including the amp here) Interesting stuff though. Will continue to follow with keen interest.
Hmmm!
Interesting!
Everything that the grounding box brings to the table has disappeared (to be expected) but I can clearly hear French trawler men talking on their radios! :scratch:
:) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :)
Another fine theory bites the dust.
Firebottle
05-02-2019, 09:06
What fine theory?
All you are doing by just having the cables connected (without the box) is providing an aerial to pick up transmissions.
The length of cable is what will determine the most likely pick-up, in this case the marine band.
:) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :):) :) :) :) :)
Another fine theory bites the dust.
Not if all of the cables were not connected together when removed from the box.
I have a metallic equipment rack. I could “ground” every piece of equipment to it.
Would that do the same thing as they would all have a common ground plane?
I would suggest here that the big crowbar issue for a few contributors is 'Whats in the box and how does it work?' which a genuine question. Humans are inquisitive by our very nature especially with unknown parameters.
Let's take Coke a cola for an example, its been around for 125 years, and many companies still try and copy / replicate its formula, oddly (you may feel) is that Coke a cola has no patent attached to it (neither does Lee and Perrins Worcestershire sauce). Simply as in any patent you have to list the ingredients and method of manufacturing special processes, construction method-logy etc for the patent to be granted. Which is why both of these are locked away in very secure secrete locations.
So forgive me why I am not prepared to divulge the whole process to the public after much research/design/construction/material manufacturing and near misses, not to mention time and outlay.
There are quite a few grounding boxes which are on, or have been on the market for around six years now, it is not a new premise by any means. They are a few different methodologies that are circulating Piezo electric type of mineral absorption, capacitor networks, bus bar connectivity etc.
Having tried pretty much 90% of them, I feel that pretty much all do what they say on the tin to a greater or lesser degree. You pays you money and makes your choice if your choice is the grounding block route.
Oli's point is also a valid one, in which he cited for his system that speakers would be where I would be looking to update next absolutely agree 100%. As I have stated before these grounding boxes are not magic bullets, they can deliver the possibility of improving what you already have already, if the system is not balanced (By that I mean even handed, not balanced connections) which can be at any level, not just 'Well tasty'
Steve opted form the top of range version due to the amount connections he physically has in his systems, others will not require such connectivity therefore other products can be used whilst still giving the possibility of system improvement. Customers are very happily using the first model in the series with systems around the £5000 mark, which is if you think about is a realistic amount given that forum contributors buy/sell/swap their equipment over a period of time to build up their gains within their systems. IMHO
Now Jules made a valid point, the SGS box is decent enough to get you on the ladder product, it is very obtainable and for those wishing to explore this option also you can fabricate your own cables as well if you do not wish to choose a manufacturers product cabling. 'No cigar box filled with cat litter or similar' there.
It is also nice to see seasoned debate on this thread with it descending into the abyss of null point!
Snoopdog
05-02-2019, 10:37
What fine theory?
All you are doing by just having the cables connected (without the box) is providing an aerial to pick up transmissions.
The length of cable is what will determine the most likely pick-up, in this case the marine band.
I'm picking up a local taxi company now! Time to reconnect the cables to the RTZ3 box methinks! ;)
anthonyTD
05-02-2019, 10:49
I think most people who dislike silver over copper are getting confused with silver plated copper, rather than solid silver,,, solid silver cables when terminated properly do not IMHO sound course or bright etc.
The problem in my experience has always been when you mix the two metals, usualy silver over copper, if you understand how signals travel through the cable, it is quite easy to understand why you may experience this mismatch in frequency extremes.
So what is in the box? If not any of the aforementioned rocks or crystals or bus bars, then what is in it?
Quite interesting that differing cables have noticeably different effects, and the silver being uniquely different from copper. It’s hard to even imagine what’s going on here.
I too found that copper interconnects sounded better than silver ones, in my system. I’ve never tried silver speaker wires, for obvious reasons, (expensive). But, from what I’ve heard from silver in my interconnects and phono cables, it’s not for me. Perhaps this goes down to sub atomic levels? Perhaps copper electrons and silver electrons are made from different quarks? I’ll have the boys are CERN get right on that.
Russell
AJSki2fly
05-02-2019, 11:20
I think most people who dislike silver over copper are getting confused with silver plated copper, rather than solid silver,,, solid silver cables when terminated properly do not IMHO sound course or bright etc.
The problem in my experience has always been when you mix the two metals, usualy silver over copper, if you understand how signals travel through the cable, it is quite easy to understand why you may experience this mismatch in frequency extremes.
I have some of these bi-wire cables purchased about 20+ years ago, https://www.hifix.co.uk/monitor-audio-pureflow-biwire-speaker-cablethey are slightly different in that the center between the two wire is blue, but are essentially the same style. The ones I have are Monitor Power Silver 4mm multi-strand, I think they are no longer made. They were pretty expensive at the time 4 6m runs costing about £320, so you could probably at least double that now. Anyway they do work quite well, they give a detailed rendition, with a slight top end emphasis, so careful matching is needed with speakers.
anthonyTD
05-02-2019, 11:36
:)
I have some of these bi-wire cables purchased about 20+ years ago, https://www.hifix.co.uk/monitor-audio-pureflow-biwire-speaker-cablethey are slightly different in that the center between the two wire is blue, but are essentially the same style. The ones I have are Monitor Power Silver 4mm multi-strand, I think they are no longer made. They were pretty expensive at the time 4 6m runs costing about £320, so you could probably at least double that now. Anyway they do work quite well, they give a detailed rendition, with a slight top end emphasis, so careful matching is needed with speakers.
I would suggest here that the big crowbar issue for a few contributors is 'Whats in the box and how does it work?' which a genuine question. Humans are inquisitive by our very nature especially with unknown parameters.
Let's take Coke a cola for an example, its been around for 125 years, and many companies still try and copy / replicate its formula, oddly (you may feel) is that Coke a cola has no patent attached to it (neither does Lee and Perrins Worcestershire sauce). Simply as in any patent you have to list the ingredients and method of manufacturing special processes, construction method-logy etc for the patent to be granted. Which is why both of these are locked away in very secure secrete locations.
So forgive me why I am not prepared to divulge the whole process to the public after much research/design/construction/material manufacturing and near misses, not to mention time and outlay.
I agree it is unreasonable to ask for the secret formula. However I think it is reasonable to ask for some measurements though. That would not give anything away as to how it works but it would demonstrate that it does work to those of us who are aware that it can be unwise to place all our faith in sighted listening tests, whether they are our own or someone else's.
Yup, and notwithstanding Tony's amenable input and understandable position here on this matter, that's also how I see things - but *only* if any measurements taken are valid, and seek to prove (or disprove) the claimed beneficial effect of this grounding box, or for that matter, even help explain it.
I'm not into 'wanking over measurements', just for measurement's sake. Or simply to appease someone's scientific belief system. In that respect, a few meaningless graphs or numbers won't further the debate. The *right* measurements are required, so that they can help identify and explain the phenomenon.
So.... What do you propose is measured, and how? :popcorn:
Marco.
willbewill
05-02-2019, 15:41
Some measurements...previously referred to and thrown aside by those who know more than I
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/
Some measurements...previously referred to and thrown aside by those who know more than I
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/entreq-signal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/
They are not measurements of Tony's product though. That's the Entreq.
Also no-one here is saying that one actually does anything (unless I missed it) wheras the Tony box generates immediate and obvious improvements, according to the witnesses.
willbewill
05-02-2019, 16:42
They are not measurements of Tony's product though. That's the Entreq.
Also no-one here is saying that one actually does anything (unless I missed it) wheras the Tony box generates immediate and obvious improvements, according to the witnesses.
Exactly and I trust Alan's opinions...but I wish I could get my head around what is exactly happening.
MikeMusic
05-02-2019, 17:21
Beware. There is a danger of trying an RTZ in your system
The difference between my Rega Isis, Belles Pre, Monos set up and the TAD set up I now have became *much* greater and persuaded me to go all TAD. Left a very large dent in my savings.
:)
Snoopdog
05-02-2019, 17:24
C'mon Mike
You've lost more down the back of a sofa! :)
All I can comment on that particular set of results which are being used, the test was not valid!
"Wait, but you are bound to say that". you are a manufacturer of said devices.
Hold on for second, the test shows an INCREASE of +30dB on the noise floor :stalks:, now NO one in the right minds would put in ANY piece of equipment that would cause a sound quality derogation of that magnitude :rolleyes:
I'll expand, the signal to noise ration of a top notch CD player really is so close to 96dB, by the test results the resultant conclusion would indicate the SQ of the system it was plugged into would drop below cassette tape playback capability :rolleyes:
Some how I feel no one would wish to 'achieve' that sort of a 'upgrade'
The test is also floored for one particularly large reason, it bears no real ability to demonstrate what is happening in an actual working system that is being used in a domestic environment.
Now please do realise I do not retail Entreq, however I have listened to this product in many systems and many levels, and NOT once have I been party to that kind of sound quality degradation what so ever.
This is not a end run around the question for measurements just an observation. I would also further suggest that a number of products which have the similar results also partake said request as well. Currently this is being pointed squarely at our products I realise that is because they has been a lot discussed about them, though this is purely from customer feedback and various visits from a respected forum qualified engineer and others.
You could also apply the same ideals to all cables etc. The cables that attached to the GB's are of a very low, capacitance from 12-22 pf per m, inductance and resistance. Does any of this bear a quantifiable and REPEATABLE up grade in SQ when applied to audio system, the debate is long and wide and several miles deep with both sides intransigent (the irresistible force meets the immovable object)
So lets have some suggestions as what you wished to measured?
C'mon Mike
You've lost more down the back of a sofa! :)
I heard you've pissed more up against a wall:D;)
Marco.
So lets have some suggestions as what you wished to measured?
THD+N please.
All I can comment on that particular set of results which are being used, the test was not valid!
"Wait, but you are bound to say that". you are a manufacturer of said devices.
Hold on for second, the test shows an INCREASE of +30dB on the noise floor :stalks:, now NO one in the right minds would put in ANY piece of equipment that would cause a sound quality derogation of that magnitude :rolleyes:
I'll expand, the signal to noise ration of a top notch CD player really is so close to 96dB, by the test results the resultant conclusion would indicate the SQ of the system it was plugged into would drop below cassette tape playback capability :rolleyes:
It was 40db but still at -110db so not the level of degradation you allude to above, no need to roll the eyes.
Discopants
05-02-2019, 20:27
Surely you want to be measuring signal to noise in the system across a range of volumes with and without the grounding solution attached....?
willbewill
05-02-2019, 20:59
Please bear with me if what I ask has already been covered...but I'm trying to make sense of it.
I assume the cables are only connected to the 'grounds' of the rca connections on each piece of equipment?
I also assume it is assumed that most, if not all, of the interference noise is to be found on the ground planes, either from external RFI, mains noise and internal circuit/power noise. It would, I assume, be difficult to differentiate between signal and noise on the signal side of the circuits?
Therefore the 'ground box' 'drains' this interference noise from the ground planes thus 'freeing up' the signal, giving greater clarity/transparency which manifests itself in increased soundstage etc? I have experienced this in the past with 'dirty' mains supplies, even down to a Lenco turntable having its power supply being provided by a speed controller instead of directly from a mains supply where everybody in a room jawdropped when they heard the difference...most of them did not even know it had been changed but heard it.
Wakefield Turntables
05-02-2019, 21:16
That's pretty much my plan too.
+2
Beobloke
06-02-2019, 09:07
I'll expand, the signal to noise ration of a top notch CD player really is so close to 96dB, by the test results the resultant conclusion would indicate the SQ of the system it was plugged into would drop below cassette tape playback capability :rolleyes:
?
That’s not really a valid comparison. If you look at the measurement figures, you’ll see that the 40dB increase in noise took the figure from -150dB up to -110dB. These are not levels of noise that you hear in the same way as cassette hiss, but it will still potentially alter the sound.
That’s not really a valid comparison. If you look at the measurement figures, you’ll see that the 40dB increase in noise took the figure from -150dB up to -110dB. These are not levels of noise that you hear in the same way as cassette hiss, but it will still potentially alter the sound.
Morning Adam
I must admit I didn't really have a close look at the graph that was cited so my error there. :spank:
Human hearing has a dynamic range of around 140dB (though that does vary according to frequencies) so I would suggest that yes, it would be more than perceivable to most individual's hearing to that amount of 'induced noise' What is seen on the AP graph is pretty substantial (Though not connected to an audio system) and no one would wish to purposefully place that amount of noise into any audio system.
Perfectly logical rational behind the length of the cables and pick ability of said 'aerial' though if you inspect the leads that entreq use they are rather basic in terms of various rudiments of cable manufacturer imo. This in itself will not be solely responsible for the result I would suspect but it sure isn't going to help!
While were are on the subject of human hearing although we have a so called 20hz<>20Khz range (hence the Nyquest theorem in the red-book standard, which was 22.05Khz (half the 44.1Khz frequency range) the brick wall filter emerged early on 20-20Khz.
However we may not be able to physically 'hear' above those frequencies and lower as we get older, I am 52 and have me hearing checked every three months by a qualified audiologist (not spec savers lol) luckily I still have just on 15Khz available out of the 20Khz.
However we can perceive frequencies at a higher rate, although we may not actually 'hear' them yet we sense them. Many musical instruments have bandwidths which far exceed the 3rd harmonic. If these were recorded with a flat 20Khz microphone they genuinely would not sound as they we would normally associated. Recording studio's uses microphones which capture far higher frequencies to enable realistic presentation after being squeezed into red book format.
However we can perceive frequencies at a higher rate, although we may not actually 'hear' them yet we sense them. Many musical instruments have bandwidths which far exceed the 3rd harmonic. If these were recorded with a flat 20Khz microphone they genuinely would not sound as they we would normally associated. Recording studio's uses microphones which capture far higher frequencies to enable realistic presentation after being squeezed into red book format.
To my knowledge there is no evidence that we hear above 22Khz, I'd be interested in anything you can reference that documents that we can. Nothing recorded prior to about 2000 uses a mic that can capture over 22khz. Most mics in use now do not do that either.
All the great recordings in rock, pop. classical and jazz were made with recording equipment that struggled to capture 20Khz. Are we now saying that they do not portray instruments realistically?
Added to that, even with higher bandwidth mics available, many artists and producers favour vintage mics that again, cannot record frequencies over that level. You're really on a hiding to nothing with that line of argument Tony. It has zero credibility.
No to mention all the speakers that do not have any response over 22KHz. QUAD ESL? Tannoy DC...?
anthonyTD
06-02-2019, 14:05
One of the most well known Mic's in the business! https://en-de.neumann.com/u-87-ai#technical-data
walpurgis
06-02-2019, 14:14
Nothing recorded prior to about 2000 uses a mic that can capture over 22khz.
Check out the response of some of the old ribbon mics. Not so sure about any accompanying pre-amp/amp circuitry though.
Check out the response of some of the old ribbon mics. Not so sure about any accompanying pre-amp/amp circuitry though.
or the tape machines....
walpurgis
06-02-2019, 14:18
or the tape machines....
Some of those claimed responses up to 30 or 40 kHz. Dunno at what level limits though.
Even with 30kHz to 40kHz.....the numbers sound big but we're only talking about half to one octave higher than 20kHz.
One of the most well known Mic's in the business! https://en-de.neumann.com/u-87-ai#technical-data
And what's it powered by? Lovely glowing bottles [or at least the originals were] - best technology ever invented!:exactly:
Marco.
AJSki2fly
06-02-2019, 14:38
One of the most well known Mic's in the business! https://en-de.neumann.com/u-87-ai#technical-data
On a similar line Brüel & Kjear make some of the most widely used and accurate measuring microphones in the world and the one generally used for measurement of SPL is https://www.bksv.com/en/products/transducers/acoustic/microphones/microphone-cartridges/4145 Type 4145 which has a frequency range of 2.6hz to 18khz, and "designed for low-level and laboratory free-field measurements, it is also suitable for sound pressure measurements in accordance with IEC 61672 Class 1" which is the recognised standard range for testing for hearing damage.
They also make the 4194 which will go up to 40khz, however this mic tends to be used in industrial applications where extreme constant high frequencies are emitted at very high sound pressure levels.
The 4145 is the one that is generally used to record SPL's and assess environmental impacts generally, I believe this is because it is generally recognised that the majority of human hearing drops off rapidly beyond 18khz.
Martin
My credibility is just fine thank you.
I suspect you did not read the post clearly, what I said was 'perceived' not heard extra harmonic structures in reproduced music.
A great many speakers have bandwidth going way beyond 22Khz and more:- Focal (40Khz), Magico (50Khz), Sonus Faber (35Khz) YG (40Khz +), Quadral (65Khz),Verity audio (60Khz) Tad (100Khz) Rock-port technologies (35Khz), Audio Nec (45Khz), Wilson audio (35Khz) etc.
Those guys that use super-tweeters do not just 'perceive' extended upper frequencies, they also gain improved bottom end depth and details coupled with a more smoother and open mid ban presence. Even the beloved Tannoy's have they own version which has a 62Khz bandwidth going up to a 'Usable 100Khz' So is that a sales gimmick on their behalf?
Product information (https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Tannoy/PRESTIGE-GR/SUPERTWEETER-GO/p/P0DEW#googtrans(en|en))"
With regard to microphones, yes they are many very highly respected 20Khz phone's agree 100%, we actually use one of those mentioned in of the studio's, however we also use Sanken and Earthworks models which have 40Khz and 100khz bandwidths. Depending on what you are recording, female vocals, classical ensemble, folk, Rock or metal, each genre requires a different approach.
Interestingly we have one of these new mike designs on order, has been creating a lot of buzz in the pro industry for its superb handing of the whole soundscape.
Ehrlund EHR-M (https://ehrlund.se/product/ehr-m/)
Good to see lively debate again!
Firebottle
06-02-2019, 15:33
Ehrlund EHR-M (https://ehrlund.se/product/ehr-m/)
Incredible microphone, I've read about it's development before. Inspired shape for the pick-up element.
Martin
My credibility is just fine thank you.
I suspect you did not read the post clearly, what I said was 'perceived' not heard extra harmonic structures in reproduced music.
!
So 'perceived' is not the same as 'heard'? Assuming I accept that for a second can you show me the research that says that we 'perceive' sounds at a higher frequency than 22KHz?
Do that and I'll get off your back ;)
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5509 i did find that such studies have been done. not paying for the paper tho :D
I know the studies have been done that's why I'm pretty confident in what I'm saying.
So 'perceived' is not the same as 'heard'? Assuming I accept that for a second can you show me the research that says that we 'perceive' sounds at a higher frequency than 22KHz?
Do that and I'll get off your back ;)
Yes perceived doesn't necessarily mean hear. You perceive very deep bass, you don't hear it.
You feel deep bass. Not sure that you can feel 45Khz though.
You feel deep bass. Not sure that you can feel 45Khz though.
It's about sensing it. Can you define how you perceive 8Hz? I don't find it because my trousers are flapping. I may well be sensing pressure changes but that's only my supposition. 45kHz when it's a harmonic of a note we can hear may well be perceived in some way....I don't know for sure but I'm not ruling it out.
Oh I see the previously linked scientific paper supports some form of such sensing of high frequencies.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5509 i did find that such studies have been done. not paying for the paper tho :D
AES may be charging for it but it looks like the authors have put it in the public domain (https://www.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/jn.2000.83.6.3548).
anthonyTD
06-02-2019, 16:24
:)
It's about sensing it. 45kHz when it's a harmonic of a note we can hear may well be perceived in some way....I don't know for sure but I'm not ruling it out.
montesquieu
06-02-2019, 16:25
It's about sensing it. Can you define how you perceive 8Hz? I don't find it because my trousers are flapping. I may well be sensing pressure changes but that's only my supposition. 45kHz when it's a harmonic of a note we can hear may well be perceived in some way....I don't know for sure but I'm not ruling it out.
Not much in the Audio literature but quite a lot about ultrasonic perception in humans in the medical one.
AJSki2fly
06-02-2019, 16:25
Martin
My credibility is just fine thank you.
I suspect you did not read the post clearly, what I said was 'perceived' not heard extra harmonic structures in reproduced music.
A great many speakers have bandwidth going way beyond 22Khz and more:- Focal (40Khz), Magico (50Khz), Sonus Faber (35Khz) YG (40Khz +), Quadral (65Khz),Verity audio (60Khz) Tad (100Khz) Rock-port technologies (35Khz), Audio Nec (45Khz), Wilson audio (35Khz) etc.
Those guys that use super-tweeters do not just 'perceive' extended upper frequencies, they also gain improved bottom end depth and details coupled with a more smoother and open mid ban presence. Even the beloved Tannoy's have they own version which has a 62Khz bandwidth going up to a 'Usable 100Khz' So is that a sales gimmick on their behalf?
Product information (https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Tannoy/PRESTIGE-GR/SUPERTWEETER-GO/p/P0DEW#googtrans(en|en))"
With regard to microphones, yes they are many very highly respected 20Khz phone's agree 100%, we actually use one of those mentioned in of the studio's, however we also use Sanken and Earthworks models which have 40Khz and 100khz bandwidths. Depending on what you are recording, female vocals, classical ensemble, folk, Rock or metal, each genre requires a different approach.
Interestingly we have one of these new mike designs on order, has been creating a lot of buzz in the pro industry for its superb handing of the whole soundscape.
Ehrlund EHR-M (https://ehrlund.se/product/ehr-m/)
Good to see lively debate again!
I think you need to read this https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-physics/chapter/sound-intensity-and-level/
I worked in a sound and vibration lab and we would test for all sorts of sound emitting objects, including ships horns, loudspeakers, objects in industrial environments causing hi levels of noise and high frequency (ultrasound), low levels of vibration on building sites(infrasound) and so on. We also had a very rigorous environment and tests for humans. Human beings are physically unable to hear/perceive anything beyond 22khz max (and actually anything much above 18khz is a rarity). So unless you are morphing into a bat forget it.
Duckworp
06-02-2019, 16:44
I think you need to read this https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-physics/chapter/sound-intensity-and-level/
I worked in a sound and vibration lab and we would test for all sorts of sound emitting objects, including ships horns, loudspeakers, objects in industrial environments causing hi levels of noise and high frequency (ultrasound), low levels of vibration on building sites(infrasound) and so on. We also had a very rigorous environment and tests for humans. Human beings are physically unable to hear/perceive anything beyond 22khz max (and actually anything much above 18khz is a rarity). So unless you are morphing into a bat forget it.
My daughter is an audiologist. Apparently bone conduction happens up to 50khz. And this can bypass the middle ear and hit the inner ear. So although you cannot hear frequencies above 20khz (limited by the middle ear) via air conduction, it is conceivable that the brain perceives, though not through ‘hearing’, frequencies above 20khz. This would perhaps help to explain why super tweeters make a difference to the sound?
AJSki2fly
06-02-2019, 16:50
My daughter is an audiologist. Apparently bone conduction happens up to 50khz. And this can bypass the middle ear and hit the inner ear. So although you cannot hear frequencies above 20khz (limited by the middle ear) via air conduction, it is conceivable that the brain perceives, though not through ‘hearing’, frequencies above 20khz. This would perhaps help to explain why super tweeters make a difference to the sound?
If that is so then wouldn't the SPL of the high frequencies have to be pretty high for it to penetrate any soft tissue in its path? Have they done tests to show this?
walpurgis
06-02-2019, 17:38
My speakers go right down to zero hertz. In fact they are delivering 0Hz right at this minute.
My speakers go right down to zero hertz. In fact they are delivering 0Hz right at this minute.
Your brain goes down to zero hertz, not sure about your woofers. :D
This is good stuff gents keep it coming :)
Now someone mentioned infrasonic, which are sound waves below 20Hz, these have a seriously long wave length to fully form (20hz is pretty close on 18m not sure many of us have rooms that long :lol:), you would 'feel' these as opposed to hearing them.
A few years ago now I was have a tour around Cabasse's facility in Brittany, particularly the anechoic chamber by Bernard De Bail (sure that was his name!) their chief designer the we were discussing sample rates and frequency response of a project they were working at the point in time.
Anyway the upshot was he demonstrated a 16hz waveform in there, that caused your chest to behave in a very strange manner shall we say, the SPL on your body was pretty intense and boy you were really feeling it. NOT hearing it
May be of interest. (https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/27898/can-humans-perceive-sounds-above-20-khz)
Further reading (http://recordinghacks.com/articles/the-world-beyond-20khz/)
A drop more (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10848570)
Real world instrument frequency measurements (http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm)
I don't see what all the 'we actually hear like bats...maybe -' has to do with the grounding boxes anyway. Not discussing it anymore. I'm waiting for the THD+N measurements. Not that it proves anything either way but it is still interesting and relevant.
You miss the point, it's not hearing like bats, it's perceiving. It's really not the same thing. This perception probably adds to the overall experience.
Grounding boxes may free up clutter to allow this perception to take place. Or gounding boxes may be a device of Satan....hard to know.
You miss the point, it's not hearing like bats, it's perceiving. It's really not the same thing. This perception probably adds to the overall experience.
Grounding boxes may free up clutter to allow this perception to take place. Or gounding boxes may be a device of Satan....hard to know.
No I understand the difference that is being suggested. However I don't think that we can say it ' probably adds to the overall experience.' Even if it were demonstrated that we 'perceive' these frequencies that is still a long way from showing that this has a positive effect on the experience of listening to music. That part of the theory is at best just supposition.
Whether it's probably or possibly..... let's simply keep an open mind rather than split hairs.
Have you ever sensed someone behind you without hearing anything? There's more to perception than 20hz - 20kHz (or indeed 14kHz for many).
I’m struggling with the lower noise floor theory. Particularly with the incremental improvements being heard. More cables it gets, better, more expensive box, more improvements. I would imagine in most systems the noise floor is pretty low to begin with. To then hear incremental changes to this would require exceptional hearing capabilities I would imagine?
To then hear incremental changes to this would require exceptional hearing capabilities I would imagine?
Keep up! You don't need to hear it, only perceive it :)
Keep up! You don't need to hear it, only perceive it :)
OK, exceptional perception then.
What happens if you fit a fancy fuse in one of one cables going to the box?
Do you get the same improvement as people have reported when using them in mains cables?
OK, exceptional perception then.
I think you may well be right.
Was it CS Lewis who said, 'What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are' or was that Bruce Lee?
I think you may well be right.
Was it CS Lewis who said, 'What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are' or was that Bruce Lee?
Stan Lee.
If a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one there, can an audiophile still hear it?
AJSki2fly
06-02-2019, 21:51
I think you may well be right.
Was it CS Lewis who said, 'What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are' or was that Bruce Lee?
I always walk across rice paper to the turntable without leaving a mark on it before playing vinyl, it settles everything down and creates the right feng shui so I Can perceive all air movements properly, Grasshopper.
Firebottle
06-02-2019, 21:56
For some idea of the RF (radio frequency) environment we work within see
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?62604-RF-(radio-frequency)-tests-performed-on-my-system
:)
Being an ElectroNumpty don't understand any of the theories on here. At the end of the day if you can hear an improvement and you are happy to pay for it then who cares why it does what it does or what it measures? :scratch:
There's a lot of denial and closed thinking. Not what I'd expect at AOS, other forums maybe...
Have you ever sensed someone behind you without hearing anything?
Yup, I think we all have. Not sure what that's got to do with grounding boxes, though... I haven't been following this discussion recently, so could you summarise and explain what you're referring to. Clive?:)
Marco.
Yup, I think we all have. Not sure what that's got to do with grounding boxes, though... I haven't been following this discussion recently, so could you summarise and explain what you're referring to. Clive?:)
Marco.
Sure Marco. What I'm saying is that what we sense even when listening to music is not necessarily simply sound between 20hz and around 14kHz. There may well be stimulus outside traditional frequencies, these could be as Mr C suggests at frequencies above our normal hearing capabilities. It may nor be "hearing" but some form of perception, possibly aligned with the scientific paper linked to several posts ago.
There are aspects to perception we don't understand. Who knows what's going on?
Interesting.... I certainly wouldn't dismiss the notion.
Marco.
Whether it's probably or possibly..... let's simply keep an open mind rather than split hairs.
Have you ever sensed someone behind you without hearing anything?
Yeah, but only if they haven't washed for several days.
Sensed, not smelled, daftee...
Marco.
Yeah, but only if they haven't washed for several days.
C'mon that's no way to speak about your fellow forum members!
Snoopdog
06-02-2019, 23:17
What happens if you fit a fancy fuse in one of one cables going to the box?
Do you get the same improvement as people have reported when using them in mains cables?
Quite where you would fit a fuse of any kind in a grounding cable which is terminated on the box end by either a spade or banana and on the equipment end with an RCA phono plug, BNC, XLR, USB or RJ45 connector, is beyond me!
Remember too, that the terminations at the equipment end are only connected to ground!
Just thought I would mention this as it doesn't appear as though you have been following the discussion closely!
Sensed, not smelled, daftee...
Marco.
Smell is one of the senses, though. Are we talking about some sort of 'sixth sense', like what enables you to talk to dead people?
Smell is one of the senses, though. Are we talking about some sort of 'sixth sense', like what enables you to talk to dead people?
Let's not close our minds. The modern world makes us think in clinical or scientific ways. In much earlier times we might easily have been able to use parts of our brains are which are mostly unused today...hence perception. Eg maybe telepathy was practiced. It could be that some of us are influenced by senses that the scientists amongst us don't understand. Do some people have a 6th sense? Can you really say not?
Bigman80
06-02-2019, 23:53
If you'd like to indulge in the oddity of Grounding Boxes. Heres the stuff the Japanese think should go in:
https://i.ibb.co/B2znbPF/Screenshot-20190206-234936.jpg (https://ibb.co/YBR0mWw)
https://i.ibb.co/PWQN8T2/Screenshot-20190206-234926.jpg (https://ibb.co/M16sL8z)
https://i.ibb.co/yYCjm4t/Screenshot-20190206-234916.jpg (https://ibb.co/0FLbpsT)
Bigman80
07-02-2019, 00:00
Could be the Chinese. I'm drugged up again [emoji1786]
Quite where you would fit a fuse of any kind in a grounding cable which is terminated on the box end by either a spade or banana and on the equipment end with an RCA phono plug, BNC, XLR, USB or RJ45 connector, is beyond me!
Remember too, that the terminations at the equipment end are only connected to ground!
Just thought I would mention this as it doesn't appear as though you have been following the discussion closely!
My comment about the fuses was a bit tongue in cheek....
The terminations at the equipment end are only connected to ground?
Which ground? The main electrical ground in your house or the common ground plane created by the box?
AJSki2fly
07-02-2019, 06:50
Let's not close our minds. The modern world makes us think in clinical or scientific ways. In much earlier times we might easily have been able to use parts of our brains are which are mostly unused today...hence perception. Eg maybe telepathy was practiced. It could be that some of us are influenced by senses that the scientists amongst us don't understand. Do some people have a 6th sense? Can you really say not?
Personally I am not closing my mind to what a grounding box may or may not achieve, I am plannng to try and make ne and see if there is any difference to the sound.
As for the arguments relating to perceived sound above 20khz that we do not hear in the aural sense, then I am open to someone showing me tests and measurements that it occurs and our brains actually do physically receive ultra sound which affect how we perceive music. I and others on here are probably not in the position to spend large amounts of money on high end high costing equipment to conduct an experiment to determinine if it what is claimed is true, especially when we cannot physically see or hear the result, hence cautious n rather than dis-belief.
Let's not close our minds. The modern world makes us think in clinical or scientific ways. In much earlier times we might easily have been able to use parts of our brains are which are mostly unused today...hence perception. Eg maybe telepathy was practiced. It could be that some of us are influenced by senses that the scientists amongst us don't understand. Do some people have a 6th sense? Can you really say not?
Not having a closed mind means doing research and experimentation to see if the claims hold up as opposed to dismissing them out of hand. It doesn't mean just accepting them as fact because no-one has demonstrated they are not true.
It does seem that despite the painstaking R&D that has gone into this product not even a basic measurement of its effectiveness in reducing the noise floor has been made. Those two things don't sit well together.
Not having a closed mind means doing research and experimentation to see if the claims hold up as opposed to dismissing them out of hand. It doesn't mean just accepting them as fact because no-one has demonstrated they are not true.
Indeed, and neither does it mean just accepting that such claims aren't true, because currently there is no scientific explanation for them!;)
Marco.
Hopefully the open minds here (not hear...) have read the scientific paper linked to previously. It doesn't give a nice understandable graph proving anything in the audio realm but it does give us a strong pointer that frequencies above 20kHz produce some form of response. The paper is not the sort of science I find easy to follow but the conclusion is relatively straighforward:
In conclusion, our findings that showed an increase in alphaEEG potentials, activation of deep-seated brain structures, a correlation between alpha-EEG and rCBF in the thalamus, and a subjective preference toward FRS, give strong evidence supporting the existence of a previously unrecognized response to high-frequency sound beyond the audible range that might be distinct from more usual auditory phenomena. Additional support for this hypothesis could come from future noninvasive measurements of the biochemical markers in the brain such asmonoamines or opioid peptides.
To get back onto grounding boxes....
3 or 4 years ago Robert Bastani (Bastanis Speakers) sent me a passive mains gizmo (I can't call it a device). He refuses to tell me what's in it but does say the mains connection isn't broken. I know that he is into crystals and uses them in his cone treatments. I've a very strong idea that the inline mains gizmo has some crystals inside it. This gizmo makes a very noticeable positive
impact on the sound of my system and other systems I've tried it in. The gizmo is used infront of the mains for my entire system. This is not a grounding box as in a line level but it might be called a grounding box for mains power Here it is:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7917/46962879062_27fbe005fb_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2exX2Mq)mains (https://flic.kr/p/2exX2Mq) by Clive M (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132168588@N08/), on Flickr.
I can understand reticence to believe this stuff (ie grounding boxes) and as for myself they fall into the realm of bloody frustrating as I'd rather not have to mess with these things which do seem like voodoo but certainly in the case of the Bastani gizmo...it works.
Let's not close our minds. The modern world makes us think in clinical or scientific ways. In much earlier times we might easily have been able to use parts of our brains are which are mostly unused today...hence perception. Eg maybe telepathy was practiced. It could be that some of us are influenced by senses that the scientists amongst us don't understand. Do some people have a 6th sense? Can you really say not?
I can say that, despite research over many decades, no proof, or even evidence of a sixth sense has emerged. Plenty of anecdotal reports, but nothing that has withstood rigorous testing in laboratory conditions. 'Believers' will say that this is because such powers are impaired by the 'stress' of test situations. Curiously, the same claim is made of perceived/claimed differences between audio components such as cables, which cannot be verified under blind testing.
I can say that, despite research over many decades, no proof, or even evidence of a sixth sense has emerged. Plenty of anecdotal reports, but nothing that has withstood rigorous testing in laboratory conditions. 'Believers' will say that this is because such powers are impaired by the 'stress' of test situations. Curiously, the same claim is made of perceived/claimed differences between audio components such as cables, which cannot be verified under blind testing.
This all came out of it being said to be impossible to sense or perceive frequencies above 20kHz - 6th sense was purely my way of trying to find some way to describe it. Hopefully given the paper discussed in this thread there's at least some questioning in your mind.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.