View Full Version : Wasn't gonna post this...
MODERATOR SAFETY NOTE
During this thread it was 'suggested' that removing equipment fuses and effectively 'shorting' the fuse holder terminals either by the use of a copper rod or by soldering the connection is hereby NOT advisable.
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS.
-----------------------
But then I sat down to listen... :eek:
Colour me skeptical, but took a punt and put one of these in my digital source, a Logitech Transporter.
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq61/gazjamster/20170111_123301_zpsdksrgefn.jpg
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq61/gazjamster/20170111_195654_zps8o7iqzf3.jpg
Component change level upgrade.
Yup.
So much better sounding, bigger upgrade than any interconnect or even speaker cable change I've done...
something fundamentals going on here...
Over time I'm kitting out the rest of my system with them, both internal and IEC socket.
All but one bits of my kit are fed power from my balanced mains, so just the one 13A to get.
No shades of grey "well...its a different flavour I guess?" self justification or expectation bias - it's a significant upgrade.
Have a pretty resolving system, think I'm now just getting the best out of it. YMMV of course.
Theres definately something to this clean power feeding your hifi lark...
How much was it, daftee - more than the cost of a fish supper? ;)
Marco.
£90? :eek:
I hope is does not go pop, as that is one way of easily blowing money.
I would need two for my amp alone. :scratch:
brian2957
11-01-2017, 21:59
Oooh .. :uhho: :lol:
Aye....a wee bit salty, helps if I think of it as a sound upgrade rather than 'just a fuse' :)
I've spent a lot more on upgrades and had much less improvement in the past?
the power regulation on my kits pretty good, so no massive current swings and hopefully nothing goes bang.
Was sceptical, but a few 'common sense' guys I respect the opinions of on some of the American high end forums were raving about them.
A 30 day return period made me take a punt.
As always I dont pretend to know everything and just let my ears be the judge.
Helluva upgrade peeps.
Audio Al
12-01-2017, 05:41
Is it filled with snake oil ?
Light Dependant Resistor
12-01-2017, 06:08
Is it directional, ie is there any change inserting the other way round ? :)
Aye....a wee bit salty, helps if I think of it as a sound upgrade rather than 'just a fuse' :)
I've spent a lot more on upgrades and had much less improvement in the past?
the power regulation on my kits pretty good, so no massive current swings and hopefully nothing goes bang.
Was sceptical, but a few 'common sense' guys I respect the opinions of on some of the American high end forums were raving about them.
A 30 day return period made me take a punt.
As always I dont pretend to know everything and just let my ears be the judge.
Helluva upgrade peeps.
I have been down this road Gaz and scratched the itch. I am a believer!:)
RobbieGong
12-01-2017, 09:24
Might be snake oil to some but I couldnt find a bad review http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fuses#shopify-product-reviews
Clifford.T Ward
12-01-2017, 09:35
If there is a scientific effect I'd be interested to see what members thought it might be
for example
better electrical conductivity
some phenominia conected with the transmission of frequency
an indirect effect on other components?
farflungstar
12-01-2017, 09:45
I am more than a little sceptical about this. Whilst I can understand the effects of long (0.5m >) cables, having a dedicated spur for each component etc, I fail to see how one 10mm length of fine wire can have any impact on sound compared to another 10mm bit of wire.
Hmmm...
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Sovereign
12-01-2017, 10:10
As you know Gaz I also use a BPS, which I leave on permenantly unless I go away for a few days. I went away recently, when I returned I turned on my BPS then immediately my Class A amp the internal fuses blew in the amp, that's six fuses. However, I have not had this problem before or since.
Glad to found a good upgrade, take care of that fuse that is designed to burn (blow) :mad:
Firebottle
12-01-2017, 10:20
Gaz, would you indulge me?
As you are technical and know what you are doing I propose a little experiment.
Would you care to remove the fuse, solder a thick length of copper wire to the outside of the fuse clips and see if there is any difference to the sound.
Before anyone jumps on me to say this is risky, yes I know, but for the short time this will take the risk is minimal.
The pcb tracks only look to be rated at about 2A anyway :doh:
Over to you .....
:)
If there is a scientific effect I'd be interested to see what members thought it might be
for example
better electrical conductivity
some phenomena connected with the transmission of frequency
an indirect effect on other components?
Know that the fuse element is made from graphene, which has different electrical conductivity than normal metal in fuses?
Could that make a difference?
As always with me, its down to what I hear and this was a significant jump. more than any cable change as I said.
Just putting it out there, works for me. :)
As you know Gaz I also use a BPS, which I leave on permenantly unless I go away for a few days. I went away recently, when I returned I turned on my BPS then immediately my Class A amp the internal fuses blew in the amp, that's six fuses. However, I have not had this problem before or since.
Glad to found a good upgrade, take care of that fuse that is designed to burn (blow) :mad:
Crikey...thats bad!
Glad its not happened again.
What might have been the cause of that, isn't the BPS regulated for inrush current?
Love to indulge you Alan, but the Transporters my only digital source and wouldn't want anything to go ka-ka!
I would expect a difference though?
All but my power amp is hard wired from the Balanced mains and I know how true "the best fuse is no fuse" is.
(All equipment internally fused and protected of course.)
Sorry mate!
Gaz, would you indulge me?
As you are technical and know what you are doing I propose a little experiment.
Would you care to remove the fuse, solder a thick length of copper wire to the outside of the fuse clips and see if there is any difference to the sound.
Before anyone jumps on me to say this is risky, yes I know, but for the short time this will take the risk is minimal.
The pcb tracks only look to be rated at about 2A anyway :doh:
Over to you .....
:)
Might be snake oil to some but I couldnt find a bad review http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fuses#shopify-product-reviews
Yup,
Always this 63 page Thread too, folk like 'em.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
Clifford.T Ward
12-01-2017, 10:48
https://www.plymouth.ac.uk/news/study-confirms-electricity-can-flow-through-graphene-at-high-frequencies-without-energy-loss
The above article might shed a little light...........:)
Do you need better mains cables to see the benefit?
I am thinking that if I were to try one, the pre amp would be the place I would think it would have the most benefit.
Where did you get the fuse from, as the 30 day return would be most useful.
Do you need better mains cables to see the benefit?
I am thinking that if I were to try one, the pre amp would be the place I would think it would have the most benefit.
Where did you get the fuse from, as the 30 day return would be most useful.
Not sure to be honest, best way is to listen to one in your system probably.
Got mine here:
http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-699/synergistic-research-black-sr-quantum-reference-20x5mm-fuse.html
Ordering another for my Preamp myself later today.
RothwellAudio
12-01-2017, 11:57
I believe fuses should be used only as a prevention against fires - they won't blow fast enough to save transistors. If you accept that they're there as a safety feature to to prevent fires and do not behave like an ordinary piece of wire, it should be possible to mitigate the effects of any odd/non-audiophile behaviour at the design stage.
I suppose I'm saying that any audible effects will depend on the way the amp or whatever has been designed in the first place.
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 13:41
I will of course say that a fuse can have no effect and this is a complete waste of time and money... and no I don't "trust anyone's ears" on this... If 1000 people all said it was a huge upgrade I'd still say your all imagining it!
The only time a fuse can have an effect on sound is if it is between the output of an amp and a speaker, where they should not be used but sometimes are.
Impossible trumps opinion every time.... No matter whose opinion or how many agree with it... The world remains round even if you're in a room full of hundreds of people yelling at you that it is obviously flat!!
Does no one think it rather suspicious that all "incredible" (literally) after market tweaks come in the form of something that can be simply unplugged/disconnected and then be replaced by the new one by non technical people and without any soldering? Non of the hundreds of other parts in a piece of kit which are soldered in just happen to be the magic tweak?
Now whilst it should be bloody obvious why not anyway, I could write a long technical piece here explaining precisely how and why it's impossible for a fuse to have any effect... but I'll save myself the bother as believers in foo are like any religious believer, in that no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to shake their "faith".
I will of course say that a fuse can have no effect and this is a complete waste of time and money... and no I don't "trust anyone's ears" on this... If 1000 people all said it was a huge upgrade I'd still say your all imagining it!
The only time a fuse can have an effect on sound is if it is between the output of an amp and a speaker, where they should not be used but sometimes are.
Impossible trumps opinion every time.... No matter whose opinion or how many agree with it... The world remains round even if you're in a room full of hundreds of people yelling at you that it is obviously flat!!
Does no one think it rather suspicious that all "incredible" (literally) after market tweaks come in the form of something that can be simply unplugged/disconnected and then be replaced by the new one by non technical people and without any soldering? Non of the hundreds of other parts in a piece of kit which are soldered in just happen to be the magic tweak?
Now whilst it should be bloody obvious why not anyway, I could write a long technical piece here explaining precisely how and why it's impossible for a fuse to have any effect... but I'll save myself the bother as believers in foo are like any religious believer, in that no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to shake their "faith".
Hey Jez,
No faith-based purchase or kool-aid drank here, just what my ears tell me. :ner:
Nothing to sell here, no dog in the race...just passing on direct experience of listening in my system to folks.
I find it a bit of a puzzler as well, know the theory so its a surprise the level of improvement.
Genuinely interested in what you think of this from an EE's point of view:
Could the use of graphene as the fuse element rather than normal fuse metal have any effect electrically?
Doesn't necessarily follow that its audible of course, but could that affect how the fuse passes current through it before it gets converted to audio signal?
We know how important a good clean power supply is to reproduction, could this be the first part of the chain and its removing a choke point before current flows into the equipment?
Happy to look at any evidence you have to say that the fuse has no direct effect on any electrical property of current flowing through it and entering the equipment.
And what does the fuse do when its between amp and speaker, how does this have an effect?
Ta.
RothwellAudio
12-01-2017, 13:58
Jez, that's pretty much what I'm saying - I just don't dare put it as bluntly as that :lol:
RothwellAudio
12-01-2017, 14:04
Could the use of graphene as the fuse element rather than normal fuse metal have any effect electrically?
I've known plenty of fuse holders to be a loose fit and/or have tarnished contacts. Simply pulling out one fuse and replacing it with another could clean up the contacts. Just a thought.
Me too, its definitely noticeable.
That in fact was what got me interested in at least trying one of these SR Fuses. Last week I cleaned up all the stock fuses and holders in my system and noticed the improvement.
So comparing to that, I put the SR fuse in and genuinely taken back with the level of improvement.
It's not subtle.
Sovereign
12-01-2017, 14:44
Crikey...thats bad!
Glad its not happened again.
What might have been the cause of that, isn't the BPS regulated for inrush current?
I think it was my fault, it should have given the BPS time to at least come to life before i pulled a load of current from it.
I've got no inrush protection on my BPS I try and run it as streamlined as I can. The ones I have sold on have protection on the secondaries and most have inrush protection.
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 14:53
Jez, that's pretty much what I'm saying - I just don't dare put it as bluntly as that :lol:
It's a dirty job but (especially in this so called "post truth" world) someone has to do it:)
I will of course say that a fuse can have no effect and this is a complete waste of time and money... and no I don't "trust anyone's ears" on this... ".
Would you trust your own ears, then? I'm as sceptical as you are but if Gaz is saying there is a big difference then I'm inclined to think something is going on. I'd be happier if I knew for certain that he has not changed anything else that may be a more rational reason for an improvement.
The fact is that if the fuse alone affects sound quality all bets are off about pretty much everything and that is just a little bit scary.
I had some fuses blow on my power amp and replaced them with like for like fuses a while back and I heard a significant Increase in dynamics after. This got me investigating fuses myself as I had personal experience of something happening.
However my journey was a bit short as I discovered that after trying a few specialist fuses the cheap Maplin ones sounded better. The Hi-Fi tuning fuse actually made my system sound flatter! So although I totally agree they can make a difference it maybe not always for the better!
I too was somewhat a sceptic until I actually tried ( free of charge ergo no purchaser expectation ) an SR Red on the power input to my ARC Ref preamp, replacing the original factory fuse was laughable.
i now run SR Black's in several locations.
Beware people who decry anything they dont understand. ;). Do understand it and am sceptical myself but others say they do hear improvements, as they do with mains cables which are just another bit of wire. Thus i am open to the idea at least, even if not convinced.
Just my take, so there :D
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 15:30
Hey Jez,
No faith-based purchase or kool-aid drank here, just what my ears tell me. :ner:
Nothing to sell here, no dog in the race...just passing on direct experience of listening in my system to folks.
I find it a bit of a puzzler as well, know the theory so its a surprise the level of improvement.
Genuinely interested in what you think of this mate, from an EE's point of view:
Could the use of graphene as the fuse element rather than normal fuse metal have any effect electrically?
Doesn't necessarily follow that its audible of course, but could that affect how the fuse passes current through it before it gets converted to audio signal?
We know how important a good clean power supply is to reproduction, could this be the first part of the chain and its removing a choke point before current flows into the equipment?
Happy to look at any evidence you have to say that the fuse has no direct effect on any electrical property of current flowing through it and entering the equipment.
And what does the fuse do when its between amp and speaker, how does this have an effect?
Ta.
Ok I'll take the bait.. for now.
First of all I don't believe what your ears tell you... I wouldn't believe it if MY ears told me it neither! Impossible is invariant so "maybe it really does have an effect somehow" is not an option. It doesn't.
What a fuse may or may not do to electricity passing through it is irrelevant. It easy to design a power supply (most fuses are obviously in power supplies) in which even if you deliberately fed 10 Volts of the most manky interference etc into the power supply, less than 1PPM would be measurable at the output of the supply. A fuse is in effect a resistor of very low value, say 0.01R, even 10Amps flowing through this will generate only 0.1V across it. By the time the mains voltage has passed through transformer, rectifiers, smoothing caps, probably RC filtration and then usually a voltage regulator, any variations in the output due to the fuse will be less than the random movement of electrons in a piece of wire!
Graphene is the best conductor known but why would you want the best conductor as a resistor? Unless a fuse is a resistor it cannot dissipate power and cannot blow! This kind of messes with the whole point of having a fuse... If it is graphene, the conductor must be incredibly thin, or mixed with other things, to create resistance...
In the case of a speaker fuse, or one at the output of an amplifier and not within the negative feedback loop, the fuse passes the whole AC signal current and if rated low enough to have any chance of blowing and saving the speaker will vary in resistance over each cycle of low frequency and thereby generate distortion, mainly third harmonic in nature.
Know a guy over on the Wam who trusts his ears less than what he can measure.
Has actually said it sounds better to him but doesn't want it, as it measures worse! :scratch:
Different strokes I guess..and thats ok.
Martin,
Literally, only thing I'd changed was the fuse.
Not a believer in foo personally, (gave it up with the green pen on CDs!) but there seemed to be sound scientific reasons for at least the POSSIBILITY of something here with these fuses?
(The hundreds of extremely positive comments and the 30 day trial didn't do any harm either.)
I dont really do Dogma of any kind, so try to keep an open mind but always always need to near things for myself.
i cant explain it rationally either, it just gave my Transporter a huge kick up the arse and I've never heard my digital sound anywhere near as good as this before.
One coming for the preamp too.
Would you trust your own ears, then? I'm as sceptical as you are but if Gaz is saying there is a big difference then I'm inclined to think something is going on. I'd be happier if I knew for certain that he has not changed anything else that may be a more rational reason for an improvement.
The fact is that if the fuse alone affects sound quality all bets are off about pretty much everything and that is just a little bit scary.
Sovereign
12-01-2017, 15:48
Thanks for your last comment Jez, I appreciate it when you spell things out and not just bugger off. I helps me on my learning curve mate, cheers.
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 15:48
Would you trust your own ears, then? I'm as sceptical as you are but if Gaz is saying there is a big difference then I'm inclined to think something is going on. I'd be happier if I knew for certain that he has not changed anything else that may be a more rational reason for an improvement.
The fact is that if the fuse alone affects sound quality all bets are off about pretty much everything and that is just a little bit scary.
It's a big IF... and I say that even if 1000 people say they hear a huge difference they are still all imagining it and that the power of expectation bias is responsible for SO much of what people "hear" in hi fi..... but yes, all bets would be off about pretty much everything and it would be fucking scary!!!
However, I don't believe for one second that after mankind harnessing the power of electricity for over 150 years, inventing radio, TV, the computers we are using right now, putting man on the moon, the CAT scanner etc etc and all the scientific research that produced all this by some of the best brains ever to exist in the likes of NASA, MIT, Bell Labs, the research depts of companies like Philips, Hitachi, Sony, Lockheed-Martin, BAE etc etc, that there are still matters to do with the simple flow of electricity through a fuse, or mains lead, that have eluded all of mankind's investigative powers for 150 years but which have been discovered by audiophiles...
And on that bombshell... I'll bow out of a certain-to-be-circular argument in which we've "all been there before" :) Carry on...
Good info Jez, but be careful with the name calling eh? :)
No bait to take mate.
I believe my ears and Im cool with that.
Wouldn't be putting this forward if I didn't know for a fact my kit sounds much better.
Know both sides of the argument, the issue being that measurement only folks come from the viewpoint that everything is understood...your 'impossible is invariant' seems to demonstrate this?
Good scientific method comes down to testing after making a hypothesis, not dismissing things out of hand due to established models of belief.
Fair point?
And as you say its a fuse that uses graphene in its construction, it will have other mechanisms going on.
s'all good.
Ok I'll take the bait.. for now.
First of all I don't believe what your ears tell you... I wouldn't believe it if MY ears told me it neither! Impossible is invariant so "maybe it really does have an effect somehow" is not an option. It doesn't.
What a fuse may or may not do to electricity passing through it is irrelevant. It easy to design a power supply (most fuses are obviously in power supplies) in which even if you deliberately fed 10 Volts of the most manky interference etc into the power supply, less than 1PPM would be measurable at the output of the supply. A fuse is in effect a resistor of very low value, say 0.01R, even 10Amps flowing through this will generate only 0.1V across it. By the time the mains voltage has passed through transformer, rectifiers, smoothing caps, probably RC filtration and then usually a voltage regulator, any variations in the output due to the fuse will be less than the random movement of electrons in a piece of wire!
Graphene is the best conductor known but why would you want the best conductor as a resistor? Unless a fuse is a resistor it cannot dissipate power and cannot blow! This kind of messes with the whole point of having a fuse... If it is graphene, the conductor must be incredibly thin, or mixed with other things, to create resistance...
In the case of a speaker fuse, or one at the output of an amplifier and not within the negative feedback loop, the fuse passes the whole AC signal current and if rated low enough to have any chance of blowing and saving the speaker will vary in resistance over each cycle of low frequency and thereby generate distortion, mainly third harmonic in nature.
anthonyTD
12-01-2017, 16:25
Jez,
I too have comented on this in past threads relating to upgrade fuses.
And I agree with most of what you have written here, the only reason a fuse could posibly have any affect over another is due to its resistance, or posible bottle neck affect to large instantaneous current swings.
Now, as you quite rightly stated; a fuse is designed to be the weakest link in the chain, it is meant to go before anything else; ie; tracks, wiring etc.
My own personal findings with these fuses; to have any affect, is; that they cannot be the same rating as a standard like for like fuse, and therefore have lower resistance, which inturn in some equipment would relate similarly to what Alan [Firebottle] was sugesting, ie; removing the fuse all together, and replacing it temporarily with a thick piece of wire, and I am with alan on this, as I am sure it would have the same desired affect.
Unfortunetly though, in both cases, ie; the upgraded fuse, and the piece of wire, the equipment in question would no longer posses the same level of safety, as it had with the original standard fuse fitted [of this I am certain going on past experience]
I have witnessed this first hand, and have seen with my own eyes the damage these types of fuses can cause in certain types of equipment, when they failed to do their job!
Yes, as with many things Audio, I do believe that such things can have a sonic affect, THIS IS THE PART WHERE Jez and I will mostly always disagree, but we are both grown ups, and I am sure we will always have the respect for each other to agree to disagree on such matters.
All I am saying is; be careful where you fit these things, and if they are in bits of kit that you tend to leave on 24/7, my advice would be ; turn the kit off when not in use!
Ok I'll take the bait.. for now.
First of all I don't believe what your ears tell you... I wouldn't believe it if MY ears told me it neither! Impossible is invariant so "maybe it really does have an effect somehow" is not an option. It doesn't.
What a fuse may or may not do to electricity passing through it is irrelevant. It easy to design a power supply (most fuses are obviously in power supplies) in which even if you deliberately fed 10 Volts of the most manky interference etc into the power supply, less than 1PPM would be measurable at the output of the supply. A fuse is in effect a resistor of very low value, say 0.01R, even 10Amps flowing through this will generate only 0.1V across it. By the time the mains voltage has passed through transformer, rectifiers, smoothing caps, probably RC filtration and then usually a voltage regulator, any variations in the output due to the fuse will be less than the random movement of electrons in a piece of wire!
Graphene is the best conductor known but why would you want the best conductor as a resistor? Unless a fuse is a resistor it cannot dissipate power and cannot blow! This kind of messes with the whole point of having a fuse... If it is graphene, the conductor must be incredibly thin, or mixed with other things, to create resistance...
In the case of a speaker fuse, or one at the output of an amplifier and not within the negative feedback loop, the fuse passes the whole AC signal current and if rated low enough to have any chance of blowing and saving the speaker will vary in resistance over each cycle of low frequency and thereby generate distortion, mainly third harmonic in nature.
narabdela
12-01-2017, 17:02
"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."
— Carl Sagan
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 17:17
Good info Jez, but be careful with the name calling eh? :)
No bait to take mate.
I believe my ears and Im cool with that.
Wouldn't be putting this forward if I didn't know for a fact my kit sounds much better.
Know both sides of the argument, the issue being that measurement only folks come from the viewpoint that everything is understood...your 'impossible is invariant' seems to demonstrate this?
Good scientific method comes down to testing after making a hypothesis, not dismissing things out of hand due to established models of belief.
Fair point?
And as you say its a fuse that uses graphene in its construction, it will have other mechanisms going on.
s'all good.
What name calling? Just in case "audiophool" is considered more than banter I've changed it for ya:)
My take on subjectivism V measurement is that they are both important but I only "allow" myself a subjective opinion on those matters which are known to, likely to or may cause a difference... IE if something goes against the laws of physics, common sense and all known scientific knowledge I will not even bother considering it... and, yes, nor will I believe it, take it seriously or give it any credence if coming from someone else...
If someone tells me they've found a new species of worm at the bottom of their garden then, whilst I would consider it very unlikely, I would have to concede that it is a possibility and would be willing to go check it out with them. If on the other hand they tell me there are fairies at the bottom of their garden...... or that the world is flat, or the sun revolves around the earth....
I could describe the full path of the mains from switchboard to becoming DC in the amplifier/DAC/whatever, all the crimped connections, the riveted connections between different type of metal, the other fuses in the path, the screw connections, the soldered joints etc etc and then ask "and you really think that 1CM or so of wire in one particular fuse can make a difference?"... but you "believe" and have "faith" that it does so nothing I say will make any difference....
You could try Andrews idea of temporarily soldering a thick piece of wire across the fuse-holder to remove the fuse from the question of course:)
Would your measurist mate from the wam be Serge by any chance? :eyebrows:
And I'm really outta here now before the discussion becomes even more polo shaped :D
Edit: Several posts since I left mine half completed until I came back for a fag... It may have been Alan's suggestion and not Andrews to rule out the fuse by soldering a wire across it... and as Anthony says (and Happy Birthday mate! :)) be very careful when fecking with the mains:eek:
I'll see your Sagan quote and raise it with another!
“People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons. The last way for skeptics to get the attention of bright, curious, intelligent people is to belittle or condescend or to show arrogance toward their beliefs"
:)
All good mate, its ok to agree to disagree as Andrew said.
Leave me to my fairys (hang on, that didnt come out right....)
And about the Wam, you may say that I couldnt possibly comment :D
Big one for mains safety here Jez, all good.
What name calling? Just in case "audiophool" is considered more than banter I've changed it for ya:)
My take on subjectivism V measurement is that they are both important but I only "allow" myself a subjective opinion on those matters which are known to, likely to or may cause a difference... IE if something goes against the laws of physics, common sense and all known scientific knowledge I will not even bother considering it... and, yes, nor will I believe it, take it seriously or give it any credence if coming from someone else...
If someone tells me they've found a new species of worm at the bottom of their garden then, whilst I would consider it very unlikely, I would have to concede that it is a possibility and would be willing to go check it out with them. If on the other hand they tell me there are fairies at the bottom of their garden...... or that the world is flat, or the sun revolves around the earth....
I could describe the full path of the mains from switchboard to becoming DC in the amplifier/DAC/whatever, all the crimped connections, the riveted connections between different type of metal, the other fuses in the path, the screw connections, the soldered joints etc etc and then ask "and you really think that 1CM or so of wire in one particular fuse can make a difference?"... but you "believe" and have "faith" that it does so nothing I say will make any difference....
You could try Andrews idea of temporarily soldering a thick piece of wire across the fuse-holder to remove the fuse from the question of course:)
Would your measurist mate from the wam be Serge by any chance? :eyebrows:
And I'm really outta here now before the discussion becomes even more polo shaped :D
Edit: Several posts since I left mine half completed until I came back for a fag... It may have been Alan's suggestion and not Andrews to rule out the fuse by soldering a wire across it... and as Anthony says (and Happy Birthday mate! :)) be very careful when fecking with the mains:eek:
I guess its going to be expensive to find out if it would blow either way. And thats possibly one of my probs with these. ....but on other hand, how can anyone say if any individual fuse is ok to use until it aint ;)
Good luck with it Gaz, and if you hear a difference then why not.
I'll see your Sagan quote and raise it with another!
“People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons. The last way for skeptics to get the attention of bright, curious, intelligent people is to belittle or condescend or to show arrogance toward their beliefs"
:)
I'm sure we all recall the thing with the stomach ulcers being caused by bacteria. The blokes who proposed that were laughed out of the room by the medical profession, but they turned out to be right. Fact is we don't know everything about how electricity actually works and even less about the point were it intersects with our appreciation of recorded music. To be sceptical is healthy, to be an absolutist is not. Especially if you have stomach ulcers caused by bacteria.
wee tee cee
12-01-2017, 18:11
Interesting Gary.
If you fancy a try of my Phonosophie fuses in your set up let me know. Ive had them a few years now and regard them as a solid infrastructure upgrade.
Bought them when I had my Naim kit-sat my wife and son down and just changed the fuse....they both heard a change in the sound( loud and clear in Glasgow let me try it with no obligation to buy)
Well worth experimentation IMHO if you trust your ears.
Yup,
Always this 63 page Thread too, folk like 'em.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
Post 4 and already burn in time is mentioned. My credulousness may be elastic but it only stretches so far; nevertheless I will read on. I might just try one in the CD player since it is small and not a big deal to post back if I hear no change. Preamp has no fuse as it's passive and the power amp has to be used with its supplied cable.
Post 4 and already burn in time is mentioned. My credulousness may be elastic but it only stretches so far; nevertheless I will read on. I might just try one in the CD player since it is small and not a big deal to post back if I hear no change. Preamp has no fuse as it's passive and the power amp has to be used with its supplied cable.
I was the same Martin, not readimg too much into anyones enthusiasm about something they just spent their hard earned on...but there was a overall pattern forming, enough to make me curious.
as I said too, couple of voices and pairs of ears on there I'd trust not to be making it up.
Id say to anyone its really worth trying.
Multi £££ bits of kit, £90 is bonkers for 'just a fuse' but small potatoes for the sound for pound improvement you get...especially in e context of expensive equipment with a 4p fuse fitted.
Built to a price of course.
Hi Anthony,
Could you expand on this:
My own personal findings with these fuses; to have any affect, is; that they cannot be the same rating as a standard like for like fuse, and therefore have lower resistance
In terms of the bit in bold, why not? :)
Basically, I don't understand why, say, a 5A 'audiophile fuse' can't be the same rating as a 5A standard fuse? Is it to do with their respective internal constructions or what? :scratch:
In terms of Gaz's revelations, I can completely relate to what he's experienced, as out with of my Copper amp, all my gear is fitted with 'audiophile fuses', from Hi-Fi Tuning, simply because I heard the same [genuine] sonic improvements he did with the SR Blacks, albeit at less cost.
Whilst engineers like Jez are perfectly entitled to question and/or disagree with the views expressed on threads like this, I think it's very important that it's done in such a way so as not to stifle the desire of people to relate their valid audio experiences to fellow enthusiasts, in the hope that whatever it is they're recommending may be of use to others, as that's fundamentally what hi-fi forums, especially this one, are about: the sharing of experiences.
Therefore, sceptics should always play the ball, not the man, or in other words criticise/attack the opinion expressed, not the person behind it.
Now whether those experiences/opinions being shared align with our own or not, or whether or not they fit with our 'world view' or scientific sensibilities, is moot, as is the requirement of those relating them to 'prove' anything other than, to their ears, differences/sonic gains were heard. No-one here, after all, is submitting a scientific thesis for formal appraisal! ;)
It's simply about telling others in an informal way how you improved the sound of your stereo, and therefore afterwards up to others to decide for themselves whether they consider there's some mileage in what's being recommended or not.
One thing I'll *never* allow here is people being scared to share those experiences for fear of being ridiculed by some blinkered dogmatist, scientific or otherwise, convinced that he or she knows it all and is always right, no matter if the laws of physics appear to be on their side.
Long live the free-thinkers on this earth, with genuinely open and inquisitive minds. *That* will always be the AoS way! :cool:
Marco.
I would highly recommend moving from the HiFi tuning fuses to SR Black's, if anywhere on source, pre and mains master 13 amp .
The SR Blacks are supposed o be a big step up Marco, worth a punt mate.
Fair enough, and I wouldn't doubt it. For me, it's simply about whether I want to 'go there' or not, as that's not where my head is at these days. I've pretty much done all the experimenting/tweaking I want to do in my system, so for me now it's all about the music: it's a contented mindset that takes a while to achieve :)
The thing you have to remember with this type of tweaking, is where does it all end?
There *must* be an end goal, and then when reached, the ability to stick with and enjoy what you have, otherwise you'll always be chasing the next 'best thing', as you can guarantee that they'll be some other fuses out there even better than the SRs....
So if you can justify £90 for the SRs, then £150 isn't so much more for something better, and then before you know it, you'll be 'rationalising' spending £300 on some 'uber fuse', fitted with a solid-silver filament and diamond-encrusted end caps! ;)
Can you see where I'm going here?
Marco.
The Black Adder
12-01-2017, 19:46
So they are good, but are they really worth £90?
If I wanted to replace all my fuses I'd have to shell out around £1000. :eek:
I know...
bonkers pricing for what it is, but great sound per pound value (imo) for what it does.
I'd much rather be going to gigs with the money (or trying out new single malts :)) but theres something fundamental going on with these.
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 19:50
Hi Anthony,
Could you expand on this:
In terms of the bit in bold, why not? :)
Basically, I don't understand why, say, a 5A 'audiophile fuse' can't be the same rating as a 5A standard fuse? Is it to do with their respective internal constructions or what? :scratch:
In terms of Gaz's revelations, I can completely relate to what he's experienced, as out with of my Copper amp, all my gear is fitted with 'audiophile fuses', from Hi-Fi Tuning, simply because I heard the same [genuine] sonic improvements he did with the SR Blacks, albeit at less cost.
Whilst engineers like Jez are perfectly entitled to question and/or disagree with the views expressed on threads like this, I think it's very important that it's done in such a way so as not to stifle the desire of people to relate their valid audio experiences to fellow enthusiasts, in the hope that whatever it is they're recommending may be of use to others, as that's fundamentally what hi-fi forums, especially this one, are about: the sharing of experiences.
Therefore, sceptics should always play the ball, not the man, or in other words criticise/attack the opinion expressed, not the person behind it.
Now whether those experiences/opinions being shared align with our own or not, or whether or not they fit with our 'world view' or scientific sensibilities, is moot, as is the requirement of those relating them to 'prove' anything other than, to their ears, differences/sonic gains were heard. No-one here, after all, is submitting a scientific thesis for formal appraisal! ;)
It's simply about telling others in an informal way how you improved the sound of your stereo, and therefore afterwards up to others to decide for themselves whether they consider there's some mileage in what's being recommended or not.
One thing I'll *never* allow here is people being scared to share those experiences for fear of being ridiculed by some blinkered dogmatist, scientific or otherwise, convinced that he or she knows it all and is always right, no matter if the laws of physics appear to be on their side.
Long live the free-thinkers on this earth, with genuinely open and inquisitive minds. *That* will always be the AoS way! :cool:
Marco.
I have been very careful to do just that and to avoid causing any offence, but please do allow me, and others of similar views, an even playing field in such arguments. It seems at times that someone could claim even something like that hanging small cotton bags of guano about their living room improves the sound... and they would still be treated seriously!:eek: BUT if someone like myself says "well that's patently obviously a load of bollocks" (or maybe a pile of shite... distributed around the listening room in this case:D) we are the bad guys for questioning something which.. well... is indeed ridiculous!
Maybe its a sign of the "post truth" thing again but it seems, on here at times that, to use a medical metaphor, the consultant surgeon of decades experience is disbelieved and even mocked whilst the crowd gathers around the guy peddling healing crystals and murmurs "do tell us more"....
If it is not permissible for me to tell the truth that eg such a thing as fuses making a difference is simply impossible, ergo it cannot happen, ergo if one believes it does happen the only remaining explanation is expectation bias.... then I cannot participate in such threads I'm afraid. Indeed I carefully considered not joining this one for just those reasons.... before deciding that I couldn't let such an impossibility go unchallenged and so joining, but with the intention that indeed I attack only the ball and not the man. As I hope I have done.
The Black Adder
12-01-2017, 20:00
Thing is, Jez. These fuses (other makes) have been around for a long time now so if they didn't make a difference would they still be around and let's face it, selling?
Just a thought.
I admit, I'm dubious about fuses.... but if they were £25 rather than £90 (which I believe is a more realistic price) I'd try them.
Yet you have no real world practical experience in this field have you Jez ?
I too was highly sceptical , I do not throw money down down the pan lightly , neither do I deny what my ears tell me, regardless of my technical sensibilities. would I rather have spent the monies involved in this venture on purchasing more 1970's GE 6550 A 's for my equipment than the new production 2D sounding Sovtek's as factory supplied with my equipment? Of course I would !
The Black Adder
12-01-2017, 20:04
I know...
bonkers pricing for what it is, but great sound per pound value (imo) for what it does.
I'd much rather be going to gigs with the money (or trying out new single malts :)) but theres something fundamental going on with these.
It is very interesting. It's just the pricetag that puts one owf!
Jez, you keep going on about that (the same old thing), yet no-one is stopping you from expressing your views or saying what you think, as long as you do it in a friendly and respectful manner, which to your credit you have done recently (albeit along with some acceptable banter), so you're concerning yourself with something that simply doesn't exist :)
If you think a tweak being reported is "ridiculous", then say so, *but*, and this is the important bit, if the person you're accusing that of disagrees, then having said your piece, leave it there (and for others to decide whether it's "ridiculous" or not to them), and walk away agreeing to disagree, rather than attempting to browbeat them into submission, simply because you're convinced you're right.
That just isn't cool and liable to get people's backs up, rather than educating them in any way, so it achieves nothing constructive, other than winning a points scoring contest.
The fact is, no matter how right you may be, for very good reasons, people are still allowed to believe what they want to believe [perhaps justifiably so], without being made to feel like fools, simply because what they're reporting appears contrary to currently accepted wisdom.
Marco.
Fair enough, and I wouldn't doubt it. For me, it's simply about whether I want to 'go there' or not, as that's not where my head is at these days. I've pretty much done all the experimenting/tweaking I want to do in my system, so for me now it's all about the music: it's a contented mindset that takes a while to achieve :)
The thing you have to remember with this type of tweaking, is where does it all end?
There *must* be an end goal, and then when reached, the ability to stick with and enjoy what you have, otherwise you'll always be chasing the next 'best thing', as you can guarantee that they'll be some other fuses out there even better than the SRs....
So if you can justify £90 for the SRs, then £150 isn't so much more for something better, and then before you know it, you'll be 'rationalising' spending £300 on some 'uber fuse', fitted with a solid-silver filament and diamond-encrusted end caps! ;)
Can you see where I'm going here?
Marco.
I can, and fair point well made.
But these are a bit special, fit n forget.
Just 5 more percent then call it quits? :)
I know...
bonkers pricing for what it is, but great sound per pound value (imo) for what it does.
I'd much rather be going to gigs with the money (or trying out new single malts :)) but theres something fundamental going on with these.
I'll stick to the single malts. :cool:
I can, and fair point well made.
But these are a bit special, fit n forget.
Just 5 more percent then call it quits? :)
Lol - why not? That last 5% of system satisfaction is often the hardest to achieve!
However, I'm glad you can see my point. It's the exact same thing with cables. Experiment away, but eventually find something that *hits the spot*, and stick with it, otherwise either you or your bank balance will eventually lose the plot - often both simultaneously... ;)
Marco.
You have Jez, not to worry.
Just a guy reporting in what hes found in his own system. No point to push, just genuine surprise and enthusiasm.
My point is that (and pardon the phrase, blame Mr Sircom...) Measurebators imo operate under the scope of the limits of a set framework (and no, I'm not talking about the laws of physics, no-one can lay claim to know them cos they havent all been discovered yet!)....its that scientific curiosity vs established thought thing thats the dragging point.
On both sides of the argument I'd always say be wary of absolutist statements, aside the low hanging fruit examples you mention because thats patently bollocks as you say.
Our expectations are challenged all the time, and thats a good thing.
Historically old established ways tend to be rewritten.
(obvious bollocks aside of course) :)
I have been very careful to do just that and to avoid causing any offence, but please do allow me, and others of similar views, an even playing field in such arguments. It seems at times that someone could claim even something like that hanging small cotton bags of guano about their living room improves the sound... and they would still be treated seriously!:eek: BUT if someone like myself says "well that's patently obviously a load of bollocks" (or maybe a pile of shite... distributed around the listening room in this case:D) we are the bad guys for questioning something which.. well... is indeed ridiculous!
Maybe its a sign of the "post truth" thing again but it seems, on here at times that, to use a medical metaphor, the consultant surgeon of decades experience is disbelieved and even mocked whilst the crowd gathers around the guy peddling healing crystals and murmurs "do tell us more"....
If it is not permissible for me to tell the truth that eg such a thing as fuses making a difference is simply impossible, ergo it cannot happen, ergo if one believes it does happen the only remaining explanation is expectation bias.... then I cannot participate in such threads I'm afraid. Indeed I carefully considered not joining this one for just those reasons.... before deciding that I couldn't let such an impossibility go unchallenged and so joining, but with the intention that indeed I attack only the ball and not the man. As I hope I have done.
Lol - why not? That last 5% of system satisfaction is often the hardest to achieve!
However, I'm glad you can see my point. It's the exact same thing with cables. Experiment away, but eventually find something that *hits the spot*, and stick with it, otherwise either you or your bank balance will eventually lose the plot - often both simultaneously... ;)
Marco.
I near ya, and this is it.
I'm all about making the most of what I have nowadays.
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 20:29
Jez, you keep going on about that (the same old thing), yet no-one is stopping you from expressing your views or saying what you think, as long as you do it in a friendly and respectful manner, which to your credit you have done recently (albeit along with some acceptable banter), so you're concerning yourself with something that simply doesn't exist :)
If you think a tweak being reported is "ridiculous", then say so, *but*, and this is the important bit, if the person you're accusing that of disagrees, then having said your piece, leave it there (and for others to decide whether it's "ridiculous" or not to them), and walk away agreeing to disagree, rather than attempting to browbeat them into submission, simply because you're convinced you're right.
That just isn't cool and liable to get people's backs up, rather than educating them in any way, so it achieves nothing constructive, other than winning a points scoring contest.
The fact is, no matter how right you are, for very good reasons, people are still allowed to believe what they want to believe [perhaps justifiably so], without being made to feel like fools, simply because what they're reporting appears contrary to currently accepted wisdom.
Marco.
Yeah... we're going round in the old old circles on this :) I guess where we HUGELY differ is that to me, if, for example, someone claims the earth to be flat then I feel fully justified in saying "The world is DEFINITELY round, you ARE wrong. That is a certainty"... Whereas you are happy to say "if you think the world is flat then maybe it is, who knows, maybe every geography book is wrong and all the shots of the earth from space have been doctored, it's not impossible" :D
One can prove one but not the other
narabdela
12-01-2017, 20:39
I'll see your Sagan quote and raise it with another!
“People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons...
:)
Indeed they do! Expectation bias is a powerful influence. If it sounds better to you though, that's got to be the bottom line. Who am I to quibble? :peace:
Yeah... we're going round in the old old circles on this :) I guess where we HUGELY differ is that to me, if, for example, someone claims the earth to be flat then I feel fully justified in saying "The world is DEFINITELY round, you ARE wrong. That is a certainty"... Whereas you are happy to say "if you think the world is flat then maybe it is, who knows, maybe every geography book is wrong and all the shots of the earth from space have been doctored, it's not impossible" :D
Lol - something like that!
But more importantly, I've been posting on forums since late 1999 and so very 'old in the tooth', and one very important thing I've learned during that time is that *nothing* kills forums quicker than endless, circular arguments between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists'...
Therefore, with that in mind, always know at what point, in a 'battle with your opponent', to back off and agree to disagree, before you not only piss off him or her, but everyone else looking in who's tired of reading the same old arguments ;)
The greater good of AoS and maintaining the community spirit we've successfully built here is always going to be far more important than scoring points in an argument to pacify my ego or belief system, and with respect, that also applies to you :)
Marco.
pgarrish
12-01-2017, 20:48
Yeah... we're going round in the old old circles on this :) I guess where we HUGELY differ is that to me, if, for example, someone claims the earth to be flat then I feel fully justified in saying "The world is DEFINITELY round, you ARE wrong. That is a certainty"... Whereas you are happy to say "if you think the world is flat then maybe it is, who knows, maybe every geography book is wrong and all the shots of the earth from space have been doctored, it's not impossible" :D
Actually, the earth IS a little bit flat..... it's not perfectly round you know :lol:
And don't even get onto the mathematicians... if you measure a small enough bit of the earth it is flat enough to be considered flat.... that's the trick that makes Integration work after all....
I too have a real problem with a fuse (a) making any difference and (b) being sold for £90..... my gut reaction is simply that the fuse holders have been stretched and the new fuse is a tighter fit, plus removing the old one and swapping has cleaned the connectors. However, given that we're still finding out about (I'll say the word) quantum effects that we've never been able to observe before, who knows what may be going on in there that we cannot measure with a multi-meter but produces an audible effect? Unless you have a spare LHC lying around to prove there are no sub-atomic particles, quantum effects, magnetic interference or radiation being changed by the new fuse, I think it's understandable to claim it's impossible, but not provable.
walpurgis
12-01-2017, 20:53
I don't think I can express my views on a £90 'wonder fuse' without upsetting somebody. So all I'll say is that Jez can probably guess what I'm thinking!
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 20:54
You have Jez, not to worry.
Just a guy reporting in what hes found in his own system. No point to push, just genuine surprise and enthusiasm.
My point is that (and pardon the phrase, blame Mr Sircom...) Measurebators imo operate under the scope of the limits of a set framework (and no, I'm not talking about the laws of physics, no-one can lay claim to know them cos they havent all been discovered yet!)....its that scientific curiosity vs established thought thing thats the dragging point.
On both sides of the argument I'd always say be wary of absolutist statements, aside the low hanging fruit examples you mention because thats patently bollocks as you say.
Our expectations are challenged all the time, and thats a good thing.
Historically old established ways tend to be rewritten.
(obvious bollocks aside of course) :)
I guess I just wish that you had the same decades of experience in electronics that I have in order that you could instantly see the fuse thing to be patently as much "obvious bollocks" as the cotton bags of guano or the earth being flat! If you are right on this and I'm wrong then every book on electronics and /or physics is also wrong, as is all my decades of practical experience and tricks of the trade. It certainly seems bizarre, to me anyway, (and please don't take this the wrong way) that the purely subjective report from a lay man in this field is given far more credence than the professional opinion of an expert in the field amongst our peers.... yet the majority of those agreeing with you and planning on trying these magic fuses would probably turn to me on a different day saying " ee I know nowt about all this technical stuff and electricity Jez, can you give me some advice on what could be wrong with my amp please?" or some such...
Anyhow, at the end of the day it's just a stereo and not worth any falling out or bad blood over it so I hope you'll take the above in the spirit intended :)
I too have a real problem with a fuse (a) making any difference and (b) being sold for £90..... my gut reaction is simply that the fuse holders have been stretched and the new fuse is a tighter fit, plus removing the old one and swapping has cleaned the connectors. However, given that we're still finding out about (I'll say the word) quantum effects that we've never been able to observe before, who knows what may be going on in there that we cannot measure with a multi-meter but produces an audible effect? Unless you have a spare LHC lying around to prove there are no sub-atomic particles, quantum effects, magnetic interference or radiation being changed by the new fuse, I think it's understandable to claim it's impossible, but not provable.
Great post... Hear, hear! :thumbsup:
Not every effect we can *genuinely* hear in audio is currently scientifically provable. The question is, which is genuine and which is imagined, and who or what acts as the final arbiter for such....
Marco.
Indeed they do! Expectation bias is a powerful influence. If it sounds better to you though, that's got to be the bottom line. Who am I to quibble? :peace:
OK, you win.
(and where the rest of my quote? ;))
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 20:59
Lol - something like that!
But more importantly, I've been posting on forums since late 1999 and so very 'old in the tooth', and one very important thing I've learned during that time is that *nothing* kills forums quicker than endless, circular arguments between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists'...
Therefore, with that in mind, always know at what point, in a 'battle with your opponent', to back off and agree to disagree, before you not only piss off him or her, but everyone else looking in who's tired of reading the same old arguments ;)
The greater good of AoS and maintaining the community spirit we've successfully built here is always going to be far more important than scoring points in an argument to pacify my ego or belief system, and with respect, that also applies to you :)
Marco.
On your last point I, with a little reluctance, have to agree :) And so to not risk any further circular argument I'll bow out of this....
Absolutely. :)
And you can return that pint I bought you before at the next NEBO!
For the record, my names Gaz and I am a Subjectivist (with a little common sense thrown in too in my defence)
I guess I just wish that you had the same decades of experience in electronics that I have in order that you could instantly see the fuse thing to be patently as much "obvious bollocks" as the cotton bags of guano or the earth being flat! If you are right on this and I'm wrong then every book on electronics and /or physics is also wrong, as is all my decades of practical experience and tricks of the trade. It certainly seems bizarre, to me anyway, (and please don't take this the wrong way) that the purely subjective report from a lay man in this field is given far more credence than the professional opinion of an expert in the field amongst our peers.... yet the majority of those agreeing with you and planning on trying these magic fuses would probably turn to me on a different day saying " ee I know nowt about all this technical stuff and electricity Jez, can you give me some advice on what could be wrong with my amp please?" or some such...
Anyhow, at the end of the day it's just a stereo and not worth any falling out or bad blood over it so I hope you'll take the above in the spirit intended :)
Arkless Electronics
12-01-2017, 21:08
Absolutely. :)
And you can return that pint I bought you before at the next NEBO!
:) Will do!
It certainly seems bizarre, to me anyway, (and please don't take this the wrong way) that the purely subjective report from a lay man in this field is given far more credence than the professional opinion of an expert in the field amongst our peers....
Where has that happened? I must've missed it... All I've seen is people disagreeing with your professional opinion, in this instance, which they're perfectly entitled to do. simply because it contradicts (in some cases) MANY YEARS of listening experience! That's a rather different thing from giving one view more credence than another.
What you have to understand, mate, is that no amount of 'Jez says so, therefore it is', simply because you're an expert in your field, is necessarily going to override someone's own personal listening experience, accumulated and tested over a very long period of time.
Ultimately they're going to trust their ears and experiences first, before what some bloke says on a forum, whom they don't know from Adam, even though he's an expert - and that's the top and bottom of it.
To change that, you'll have to PROVE TO THEM that they're wrong, and this is the crucial bit, in a way that satisfies THEIR judgement criteria, and thus gain their respect, before you've got any chance of altering their well-established opinions and findings in audio.
Words or so-called 'indisputable facts' posted on a forum, no matter by whom, even if seemingly backed up by science, aren't always going to be enough. That's just how it is with human nature :)
Marco.
On your last point I, with a little reluctance, have to agree :) And so to not risk any further circular argument I'll bow out of this....
Cool. No need to bow out, but rather simply accept that not everyone on this earth will think the same as you do, no matter how much supposed 'evidence' you throw at them to show that they're wrong. The human mind doesn't work in such a 'black or white' way, like a computer ;)
Marco.
The greater good...and maintaining the community spirit we've successfully built here is always going to be far more important than scoring points in an argument to pacify my ego or belief system...
Marco.
:exactly:
We recently had a bereavement in the family and you know what it's like when emotions get the better of us, we're tired and upset, fall-outs can happen so easily and in circumstances like this can last a lifetime. I decided that no matter what happened or was said in the days ahead I was NOT going to ruin the bond between family for something stupid. I shared this with my siblings and it was the best thing ever. It kept us grounded and put things in perspective and kept us close rather than falling out.
Good relationships are worth more than anything...even on AoS :)
brian2957
12-01-2017, 21:30
I've have heard the positive effect of fuses in my own system , although not these particular ones .
Gary's not in the habit of hearing improvements which are not there and I know his system pretty well .
I'm hoping to get over to his place some time next week so I'll reserve any comments until I've heard for myself :)
brian2957
12-01-2017, 21:32
:exactly:
We recently had a bereavement in the family and you know what it's like when emotions get the better of us, we're tired and upset, fall-outs can happen so easily and in circumstances like this can last a lifetime. I decided that no matter what happened or was said in the days ahead I was NOT going to ruin the bond between family for something stupid. I shared this with my siblings and it was the best thing ever. It kept us grounded and put things in perspective and kept us close rather than falling out.
Good relationships are worth more than anything...even on AoS :)
John , sorry to hear about your loss . These are very wise words indeed .
John , sorry to hear about your loss . These are very wise words indeed .
+1. The problem with a lot of these debates is pigheaded stubbornness (worrying about 'losing face'), and folk being selfish, concerning themselves more about 'winning' an argument, than on the effect their behaviour is having/has had on others. A well-known serial 'banee' from forums, elsewhere is guilty of this, and is the reason why he's been banned from everywhere else other than his own place, but he never sees it! :doh:
Time to STOP AND THINK sometimes, folks, rather than carrying on belligerently trying to prove a point. Often the latter is completely forgotten, or not even recognised amongst the grief caused in order to get there, but the distress inflicted on others in the process hasn't.....
Marco.
.
Gary's not in the habit of hearing improvements which are not there and I know his system pretty well .
I'm hoping to get over to his place some time next week so I'll reserve any comments until I've heard for myself :)
That is where I am at too. I think I will have to order one just to satisfy my curiosity. For the money asked I will be expecting to hear an obvious improvement from the off or it will be going straight back.
Well I can say that for me a fancy fuse wouldn't be on my shopping list but then it would be out of proportion to what is currently a pretty modest system (but one that gives me enjoyment).
Maybe though in the context of Gaz's gear it might be a worthwhile investment, if he understands expectation bias (which I'm sure he does having been around this sport for a while) and hears an improvement then fair enough.
As for others whinging about the dealer markup etc, it's not as if anyone's forcing their arms to buy one is it? Some folk never happy unless complaining.
As for others whinging about the dealer markup etc, it's not as if anyone's forcing their arms to buy one is it? Some folk never happy unless complaining.
Ha - how true is that... Oh how I hate the depressing, miserable grumps of this world!
Marco.
jandl100
12-01-2017, 22:23
I lost the will to live about the end of page 2 of this thread and didn't read further.
But gaz is a sensible guy with good ears, and the Noo Year replenished my hifi budget -- so I've ordered one of those fuses.
I'll post my experience with it for anyone who is interested.
Basically, I don't understand why, say, a 5A 'audiophile fuse' can't be the same rating as a 5A standard fuse? Is it to do with their respective internal constructions or what? :scratch:
Marco.
Hi Marco, fuses react specifically to a given current flowing through them. They will allow their nominal rating to pass indefinitely but if the current increases beyond a certain level then the conductor inside the fuse will melt (blow). A very high current will cause the fuse to blow quickly, a current say just 100% above the fuse rating will take some time to blow the fuse. This relationship of current versus time is defined in a series of British Standards that fuse manufacturers *should* adhere to so that equipment designers can calculate how much energy a fuse will let through before blowing. They can then design the equipment to withstand this amount of energy so that minimum damage is caused before the fuse blows. For fuses in our standard 13A plugs this is BS1362.
*I think* what Anthony is saying is that if the fuse is made from a different conductor material it is unlikely to adhere to the same time/current curve as a BS1362 compliant fuse and so the protection level offered may be different.
Here's the curves for 3A and 13A BS1362 fuses. It's logarithmic scale. These are max and min values, likely dependent on ambient temperature, hotter = faster.
http://www.aboutelectricity.co.uk/images/photoalbum/bs1362fusingtime.png
Cheers for that, John! I now know where Anthony is coming from. Therefore, if that's right, and subsequently the resistance of these 'audiophile' fuses is lower, and the sonic effect of that is clearly audible (which it is to me, Gaz and countless others who've tried them), then I can't see why said lower resistance (if it can be measured) can't act as proof for what we're hearing :)
Marco.
Is it that there may be a safety issue? The fuse will not perform as a standard one in the event of a fault?
Spectral Morn
12-01-2017, 23:24
John , sorry to hear about your loss . These are very wise words indeed .
+ 2
Hard times :(
Yes, the safety issue is a possible problem. For that reason, I wouldn't use them in any high-current consuming components, such as a valve amp or large power amp. The ones I use are in the off-board PSU for my preamp, T/T, and CDP and DAC.
Oh, and just to get a little bit more 'mentalist', the fuses are directional, so listen to them both ways round before forming an opinion. That goes for the SRs, too... Gaz, was anything mentioned in the blurb about them being directional?
The Hi-Fi Tuning ones are clearly marked for directionality, and sound subtly different when fitted one way round or the other.
Marco.
Is it that there may be a safety issue? The fuse will not perform as a standard one in the event of a fault?
Fuse is rated at a certain rating, would have thought it illegal to advertise as otherwise?
QC in this company seems "beyond worry", they seem a pretty high end established manufacturer and lots of positive reviews from around the world on quality.
Yes, the safety issue is a possible problem. For that reason, I wouldn't use them in any high-current consuming components, such as a valve amp or large power amp. The ones I use are in the off-board PSU for my preamp, T/T, and CDP and DAC.
Oh, and just to get a little bit more 'mentalist', the fuses are directional, so listen to them both ways round before forming an opinion. That goes for the SRs, too... Gaz, was anything mentioned in the blurb about them being directional?
The Hi-Fi Tuning ones are clearly marked for directionality, and sound subtly different when fitted one way round or the other.
Marco.
From those that have used used the SR's, Ive read directionality is a factor yeah.
Fair point on using with valve amps.
Stratmangler
13-01-2017, 00:57
Fuse is rated at a certain rating, would have thought it illegal to advertise as otherwise?
QC in this company seems "beyond worry", they seem a pretty high end established manufacturer and lots of positive reviews from around the world on quality.
Do they have the relevant certifications is what your first question should be.
It's the first thing your insurers will be looking at should worst come to worst and a substantial payout be looming.
Your cheap as chips fuses all have kite marks and what have you.
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 04:40
Jerry. Which one did you order? Was it an internal fuse or a mains plug fuse.
So, what's best, mains socket fuse and internal fuses too? Or just one or the other?
I didn't know that you used them in the Croft, Marco. I may give them a go someday. Which type do you use?
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 04:43
Do they have the relevant certifications is what your first question should be.
It's the first thing your insurers will be looking at should worst come to worst and a substantial payout be looming.
Your cheap as chips fuses all have kite marks and what have you.
+1 - Very true I'd imagine... if an insurance company finds something that's not written in their very own book of sod, then wave goodbye to a payout.
jandl100
13-01-2017, 06:10
Jerry. Which one did you order? Was it an internal fuse or a mains plug fuse.
So, what's best, mains socket fuse and internal fuses too? Or just one or the other?
Just a standard 13A mains fuse http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-699/synergistic-research-black-sr-quantum-reference-13a-uk-plug-fuse.html
Not sure where I'm going to put it.
I'm tempted to place it in the plug that takes the juice from the wall and leads to a ProJect Connect-It mains block and feeds all the kit, but I await further comments on safety and insurance issues! :popcorn:
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 06:15
Well, the fuse in the mains plug is to protect the cable only so that fuse might be the best one to try first. So long as the cable is in good condition I'm sure it will be okay.
jandl100
13-01-2017, 06:28
Right. Thanks for that.
I can't imagine me replacing fuses internal to equipment.
pgarrish
13-01-2017, 07:56
Right. Thanks for that.
I can't imagine me replacing fuses internal to equipment.
Make sure to swap back after a while just in case it was the removal/insertion cleaning the contacts that actually made the difference
Ali Tait
13-01-2017, 08:16
Try removing and replacing the original fuse first, see if you can hear a difference.
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 08:22
Right. Thanks for that.
I can't imagine me replacing fuses internal to equipment.
me neither... well, not at £90 each. But there are others which are cheaper, so it might be good to try one of those first.
Wonder if anywhere do a home trial?
Hope it works for you, Jerry.
me neither... well, not at £90 each. But there are others which are cheaper, so it might be good to try one of those first.
Wonder if anywhere do a home trial?
Hope it works for you, Jerry.
Jo, I have a HIFI Tuning Fuse you can try - think its a 3.15a fuse if that's any good?
That is where I am at too. I think I will have to order one just to satisfy my curiosity. For the money asked I will be expecting to hear an obvious improvement from the off or it will be going straight back.
Give it a week or so Martin, in for a penny?
Manufacturer reccy (and user experiences) say 70 hours or so, I noticed the difference right away.
Might as well?
If it gets any better...great.
Re: safety/insurance...all valid comments.
My £0.02 and this is only my own thoughts pertaining to my system and choices...
As always with things electrical I'd say its down to the individual's choice.
Insurance companies will jump on anything rather than pay out, its how they make their money after all.
Anything at all they will use, should the worst happen.
Will it though?
Theres a popular Furutech foo plug thats technically doesnt meet UK 'insurance spec' but none have blown up.
People using elecrical mains products (used competantly of course) in their hifi's for many years without incident.
Caution in this area is valid and fair enough, but when you think about it not necessarily a direct comment on electrical safety, more about 'worse case scenario' choices for insurance purposes you make for own system.
I'm only advocating the sound quality improvement peeps, everything else is down to personal choice.
If you do swap out any fuses double check its the correct rating and is either slow or fast blow.
Then check again!
Some food for thought:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?8801-Audiophile-Mains-Fuses-Boon-or-Boooom(!)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?18988-Furutech-1363G-plug
jandl100
13-01-2017, 08:38
Wonder if anywhere do a home trial?d to try
These guys do http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-699/synergistic-research-black-sr-quantum-reference-13a-uk-plug-fuse.html
Well, you have to pay up front, but I've used them lots and they are happy to refund if you want to return an item for any reason.
tubehunter
13-01-2017, 08:40
This reminds me of when I switched energy supplier.
My old supplier got its electricity from an old coal based power station were as my new supplier receives it's energy from a new gas powered jobby.
I could of sworn my hifi sounded much cleaner.
Happy Days
There seems very little detail about this fuse on the Synergistic Research web pages.
Interesting:
NOTE: The “blow characteristics” will differ slightly (due to the different metallurgy of the fuse elements) between commercial grade and audio grade fuses. We can't guarantee that your audiophile grade fuse, won’t blow at a different in-rush current threshold, that your stock commercial fuse.
I didn't know that you used them in the Croft, Marco. I may give them a go someday. Which type do you use?
Ones from Hi-Fi Tuning, mate, like these: http://www.analogueseduction.net/hi-fi-tuning-fuses.html
They certainly improve the sound, compared with that from a standard fuse, but can't comment on how they compare with the SRs Gaz uses. Somewhat cheaper, though! ;)
Marco.
Right. Thanks for that.
I can't imagine me replacing fuses internal to equipment.
Shame, as in my experience, that's where they often have the most effect, as that's where the biggest 'bottleneck' is! ;)
Think about it... A big chunky 13A fuse inside a mains plug has a thicker filament inside it (and therefore lower resistance) than the thinner variety found inside a, much lower-amperage, equipment case fuse.
Often the latter are easily accessible, and found in a 'pop open' plastic holder next to the mains IEC inlet on the back of equipment, so not a major ball-ache to change.
Marco.
Does a short fuse make any difference ?
😁
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 09:39
Jo, I have a HIFI Tuning Fuse you can try - think its a 3.15a fuse if that's any good?
Hi James.
Many thanks. I've just checked my pre and my fuse is rated higher. Many thanks for the kind offer! :)
Try removing and replacing the original fuse first, see if you can hear a difference.
Good advice, Ali.
Also, if you're sceptical and worried that the improvement you're hearing with 'audiophile' fuses is due to expectation bias, or can't get your head around technically why they should be any different, sonically, from a standard fuse, then buy some new standard fuses of the same amperage rating as those originally fitted to the equipment, and test them against the expensive 'audiophile' fuses.
If you can't hear much difference, then chances are the improvement gained has been as a result of simply renewing the existing (heavily used) stock fuse, the performance of which will have deteriorated over time [lets face it, some of these fuses could've been inside equipment for YEARS, and few of us even will even think about it], together with the fact that the 'audiophile' fuse will have brand new, often polished gold end-caps fitted, and the fact that the internal contacts in the equipment will have been cleaned during the process of pulling fuses in and out...
Therefore, for those who can't afford to, or are unwilling to shell out for expensive 'audiophile' fuses, simply try replacing all the existing fuses in your equipment with identical standard ones, and while you're at it, polish the end caps up to a fine shine, along with cleaning the internal contacts in the fuse holders, and I *guarantee* you'll obtain 85-90% of the improvement gained by fitting 'audiophile' fuses ;)
Then if you hear an improvement with that, and want to go the extra mile and gain that last 10%, or so, then invest in some Hi-Fi Tuning fuses or SRs! :cool:
Quite simply, the exercise is all about reducing resistance and the effect of electrical 'bottlenecks' - and the results gained will vary from system to system and where the changes are applied.
Marco.
Interesting: NOTE: The “blow characteristics” will differ slightly (due to the different metallurgy of the fuse elements) between commercial grade and audio grade fuses. We can't guarantee that your audiophile grade fuse, won’t blow at a different in-rush current threshold, that your stock commercial fuse.
Interesting, and precisely what Anthony was on about earlier! That's definitely something you should consider *very seriously* before using these fuses, which is why I only use them in low current-drawing equipment, such as CDPs and preamps - and NEVER on something potentially electrically volatile, such as a valve power amp.
The bottom line is that only YOU can decide how safe they are to use and whether you want to take the risk, in terms of faults occurring and subsequently damaged equipment, from the use of 'audiophile' fuses, and the result of any insurance claim afterwards.
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 10:01
All I will say further on the subject is this; just be careful where you fit them, and try not to leave equipment fitted with them on when not in use!
Be safe.
A...
Interesting, and precisely what Anthony was on about earlier! That's definitely something you should consider *very seriously* before using these fuses, which is why I only use them in low current-drawing equipment, such as CDPs and preamps - and NEVER on something potentially electrically volatile, such as a valve amp.
The bottom line is that only YOU can decide how safe they are to use and whether you want to take the risk, in terms of faults occurring and subsequently damaged equipment, from the use of 'audiophile' fuses, and the result of any insurance claim afterwards.
Marco.
farflungstar
13-01-2017, 10:05
Marco, I pm'd you about something..
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
I should be okay. I don't leave the kit powered on when not listening to it and I don't have any insurance to invalidate :)
Not sure how an existing fuse can 'deteriorate' though. I mean it is just a piece of wire and it isn't exposed to the elements?
Light Dependant Resistor
13-01-2017, 10:05
Good advice, Ali.
Also, if you're sceptical and worried that the improvement you're hearing with 'audiophile' fuses is due to expectation bias, or can't get your head around technically why they should be any different, sonically, from a standard fuse, then buy some new standard fuses of the same amperage rating as those originally fitted to the equipment, and test them against the expensive 'audiophile' fuses.
If you can't hear much difference, then chances are the improvement gained has been as a result of simply renewing the existing (heavily used) stock fuse, the performance of which will have deteriorated over time [lets face it, some of these fuses could've been inside equipment for YEARS, and few of us even will even think about it], together with the fact that the 'audiophile' fuse will have brand new, often polished gold end-caps, and the fact that the internal contacts will have been cleaned during the process of pulling fuses in and out...
Therefore, for those who can't afford to, or are unwilling to shell out for expensive 'audiophile' fuses, simply try replacing all the existing fuses in your equipment with identical standard ones, and while you're at it, polish the end caps up to a fine shine, along with cleaning the internal contacts in the fuse holders, and I *guarantee* you'll obtain 85-90% of the improvement gained by fitting 'audiophile' fuses ;)
Marco.
If it has not already been stated , Never open casework with power connected . ** Always pull the power cord out of either the IEC socket or at the wall fitting
before opening casework *** . Place casework back ON and tighten screws before power is applied.
Spot on, Chris, and very sensible advice indeed!! :thumbsup:
Marco.
+ 2
Hard times :(
Brian, Neil,
thanks, trying to look forward.
OK to look back but not good to stay there!
Agree with Marco about cleaning up existing fuses and fuse holders, potentially make a good improvement.
I did that first and noticed the improvement, thats what got me curious about looking into alternative fuses.
The SR Black kept coming up as the one to get, not cheap but a 30 day trial meant I could take a punt, hear one for myself.
Not sure about tbe other fuses. but the SR's were a big jump over even cleaned up and Deoxit'd fuses.
Not sure how an existing fuse can 'deteriorate' though. I mean it is just a piece of wire and it isn't exposed to the elements?
Well, every time you switch your equipment on and off, it stresses the filament inside the fuse, eventually causing it to sag, and to my ears, the effect of that physical deterioration is audible. This (the sagging) is clearly evident with case fuses constructed from clear glass.
If you're got some, and compare the old ones in your equipment with new fuses, you should clearly see the difference in the condition of the respective filaments :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
13-01-2017, 11:21
Brian, Neil,
thanks, trying to look forward.
OK to look back but not good to stay there!
It will get a bit less sharp in time, the type of grief changes. It softens.
Normally the idiocy from 'over the road' [those in the know will be familiar with what I'm referring to] is ignored here, as the sheer level of nonsense spewed by the resident inmates is such that it doesn't warrant a response. However, the following comments from Mr Qwim are so farcically hypocritical that a response could only be considered as mandatory:
It is telling that none of the major members of AOS are able to sustain a membership at other less gullible forums, this is because AOS is the natural home of uncritical thinking and stupidity .
After a while , you can pick up points for style and along come flatppoopy with what he thinks is a clever comment. Alas , it is not unusual for flatpoopy to think his comments are clever when they are inane .
As I have said many times , I care not one jot for who you are I comment only on what you write with the pompous aim of trying to tease out the truth in a world full of bullshit and bollocks . And I said gazgam had lost all credibility upon the basis of what he had written .
Here we are again, another unqualified, arrogant, self-appointed judge of 'all that's wrong in hi-fi'. Just who do you think *you* are to feel justified in appointing yourself as the definitive arbiter of "bullshit and bollocks'?
You're a solicitor, FFS, and clearly an illiterate one at that, not a scientist or electronics engineer, so the reality is you're in no position whatsoever to judge anyone on the 'bullshit level' of their forum postings, on the subject of hi-fi, especially when your own output in that area is so frequently full of excrement, and shows scant evidence of acknowledging the hypocrisy of what leaves your keyboard and poses as an intelligent response.
Hang on, scratch that, you're an expert on changing nappies, so I guess you encounter lots of SHIT on a daily basis! Sorry, I couldn't resist, and after all, it's all that you're really good for... :D
In terms of credibility, when it comes to hi-fi, you have NONE, zero, hee-haw.. The King of No Credibility has more credibility than you.
All you do is copy what your master from NVA tells you to do, much like Jamrag and the rest of the painfully obsequious Disciples of Dunce, resident on HFS, who possess little ability to think for themselves, and need taken by the hand on every stage of their audio journey [excluding the likes of Slinger and Lindsayt, who appear to have resisted the brainwash and possess the ability to think freely as individuals].
Therefore, criticise Gazjam all you want , but at least he has the confidence and ability to trust his ears, think for himself and build a system based on his own judgement criteria, unlike you. All you can do is copy and follow your 'leader', like a sheep!
As for Andrew (flatpopely's) highly astute, far from inane, observation below:
Just wonder how the coments against the fuse square with this?
Welcome to Hi-Fi Subjectivist - a hifi discussion group
The world of Hi-Fi is plagued by people trying to stop you commenting on what you hear and making decisions from it. This forum is different - here we do not allow people to challenge what people hear, and we can discuss the musical ability of our systems
...and your master's ridiculous response, clearly outraged at how Andrew had exposed the sheer hypocrisy of the 'HFS mission statement', where despite claiming you don't challenge what people hear, there you were openly ridiculing Gazjam for that *very thing*, simply because what he's heard (and reported) on AoS trips your blinkered bullshit filter.
So what does your master do in order to prevent Andrew from further exposing the hypocrisy of the 'HFS mission statement'? He gags him, of course, by banning him, under the guise of making "daft comments" - and this from somewhere that claims to be free from censorship?? Honestly, you couldn't make it up!! :lol::lol:
So, Lindsay, you won't get an answer to the questions you've asked Andrew because your 'boss', in his infinite wisdom, to prevent him being made to look like a tit, has banned him!
However, it's too late, as Dicky's farcical behaviour has already been 'caught on camera' for all to see and laugh at how, on one hand, others and him refer to AoS as "censorship central", and on the other he's gagging and banning folk for simply telling it as it is!! Free speech on HFS, eh? ;)
Anyway, Qwim, my thanks to your master and you for providing some hilarity on an otherwise dull day. For the very definition of [I]inane and that which totally lacks any credibility, sweetheart, look in the mirror.
Oh and FYI, as a statement of fact, a sizeable number of AoS members are also regular contributors on pfm and Wigwam, and they manage to exist there quite happily, unlike your 'leader' who's unwelcome anywhere else other than where he can censor and exercise his control.
Over and out! :)
Marco.
RothwellAudio
13-01-2017, 12:41
My point is that (and pardon the phrase, blame Mr Sircom...) Measurebators imo operate under the scope of the limits of a set framework (and no, I'm not talking about the laws of physics, no-one can lay claim to know them cos they havent all been discovered yet!)....its that scientific curiosity vs established thought thing thats the dragging point.
I think this is interesting and worth a comment. How does it become a "fact" that certain things are inaudible? As far as I know the researchers who established the "facts" asked subjects for their subjective observations. For example, a subject may be asked which is the louder of two test tones at the same frequency but different amplitudes. The subject answers based on their subjective appraisal of the two tones. After testing many subjects the minimum audible change in amplitude is established. Then it becomes a "scientific fact". I would love to know a lot more about the methods used to establish the "facts" about what the human hearing/perception system is capable of, but I've been unsuccessful so far in finding much detail online.
I remain open minded about what anyone "cannot possibly hear".
Anyhow, at the end of the day it's just a stereo and not worth any falling out or bad blood over it...
Absolutely. It's only a device for listening to a bit of music after all.
For me, it's simply about whether I want to 'go there' or not, as that's not where my head is at these days. I've pretty much done all the experimenting/tweaking I want to do in my system, so for me now it's all about the music: it's a contented mindset that takes a while to achieve :)
Yes, at some point enough is enough. For many people a cheap piece of crap is good enough and they're happy. I sometimes wonder if they're the ignorant fools or the enlightened ones.
Oh, and just to get a little bit more 'mentalist', the fuses are directional
Eh? A fuse passing DC, maybe. What about a fuse passing AC?
Arkless Electronics
13-01-2017, 12:53
Cool. No need to bow out, but rather simply accept that not everyone on this earth will think the same as you do, no matter how much supposed 'evidence' you throw at them to show that they're wrong. The human mind doesn't work in such a 'black or white' way, like a computer ;)
Marco.
Well that's a great pity because everyone is indeed wrong on these and all other matters about fuses, which of course never effect sound under any circumstances.
To me this is a matter of deep concern as yet again we see people running round like headless chickens in pursuit of a wholly mythical "potential upgrade".
There is as much chance of these having an effect as there is of there being an actual pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.... the sad thing is one doesn't usually find oneself having to explain to adults that there isn't really a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
There are clever marketing people out there who exploit the fact that to the non technical electricity is "magic" and many people seem to want to believe in these things... so long as it is a simple unplug one thing and plug in another. This is something I keep going on about as I think it says it all: Take the lid off your pre amp DAC whatever and look how many parts there are. Now, why should it be the only part which you can simply unplug and then plug a new one in, without soldering, which should be so important to the sound? You've been had!
10+ pages now of chasing rainbows.... and if I started a thread, again concerning the quality of the power, but this time pertaining to areas that actually matter and are important, lets say the output impedance versus frequency of the voltage regulation, it would be lucky to get a page of comments because people find it too technical and so don't want to know!:doh:
I've used this analogy before but it's worth repeating. This is like watching a group of enthusiastic but non technical petrol heads discussing whether go faster stripes really make the car faster... and seeing many of them agreeing that they do (:eek:), and then when a real automotive engineer turns up and explains that go faster stripes cannot possibly actually make it faster, and to do that you need to re-map the fuel injection and fit higher lift camshafts, they all stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la la we don't want to know, too technical and we're not going to listen to you so go away"
Have fun gluing them stripes on folks, I'll be expecting 0 - 60 times next week... :lol:
Beobloke
13-01-2017, 13:01
Well that's a great pity because everyone is indeed wrong on these and all other matters about fuses, which of course never effect sound under any circumstances.
Ah, the reassuring sound of a firm nail/head interface, although I would caveat this with "mains fuses". I remember an old pair of speakers with a seriously corroded inline tweeter fuse that removed a fair chunk of treble!
Normally the idiocy from 'over the road' etc. etc. etc.
Forgive me, Marco, but haven't you just broken your own forum's rules? Will you be banning yourself for a week?! :D
I thought you were bowing out of this discussion, Jez, for reasons you seemed to accept last night? :rolleyes:
You always say that, but never keep your promise, so kindly give it a rest before you and I fall out again over insisting on telling people they are "wrong" and preaching on how 'deluded' they are if they refuse to conform to the tenets of your scientific belief system.
If you've got nothing to offer other than ridicule, thinly-disguised as 'expert input', then say nothing - and I *mean* that. This is your very LAST warning!
Marco.
Forgive me, Marco, but haven't you just broken your own forum's rules? Will you be banning yourself for a week?! :D
There's a clause I occasionally invoke, which entitles me to respond to the most ludicrous of the hilariously hypocritical bullshite spewed over there! ;)
Marco.
Hi Andrew,
I think this is interesting and worth a comment. How does it become a "fact" that certain things are inaudible? As far as I know the researchers who established the "facts" asked subjects for their subjective observations. For example, a subject may be asked which is the louder of two test tones at the same frequency but different amplitudes. The subject answers based on their subjective appraisal of the two tones. After testing many subjects the minimum audible change in amplitude is established. Then it becomes a "scientific fact". I would love to know a lot more about the methods used to establish the "facts" about what the human hearing/perception system is capable of, but I've been unsuccessful so far in finding much detail online.
I remain open minded about what anyone "cannot possibly hear".
Exactly!! That's the REAL scientific process outlined in a nutshell.
The problem is, you're dealing in some cases with years of ingrained dogma and extremely closed minds, and folk (often reductionists) who would no sooner entertain the notion that their deeply-ingrained and absolutist scientific belief system is flawed, than join a society of creationists! :D
Yes, at some point enough is enough. For many people a cheap piece of crap is good enough and they're happy. I sometimes wonder if they're the ignorant fools or the enlightened ones.
Indeed!!
Eh? A fuse passing DC, maybe. What about a fuse passing AC?
Dunno, mate. I just listen and observe, as a free-thinker and music lover with an open mind, blissfully unburdened by what is considered as 'correct' or not by established scientific wisdom. It's rather liberating having such an uncomplicated approach to music appreciation and hi-fi! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
13-01-2017, 13:44
Ah, the reassuring sound of a firm nail/head interface, although I would caveat this with "mains fuses". I remember an old pair of speakers with a seriously corroded inline tweeter fuse that removed a fair chunk of treble!
Forgive me, Marco, but haven't you just broken your own forum's rules? Will you be banning yourself for a week?! :D
I did say in an earlier post "apart from speaker fuses"
Arkless Electronics
13-01-2017, 13:45
I thought you were bowing out of this discussion, Jez, for reasons you seemed to accept last night? :rolleyes:
You always say that, but never keep your promise, so kindly give it a rest before you and I fall out again over insisting on telling people they are "wrong" and preaching on how 'deluded' they are if they refuse to conform to the tenets of your scientific belief system.
If you've got nothing to offer other than ridicule, thinly-disguised as 'expert input', then say nothing - and I *mean* that. This is your very LAST warning!
Marco.
You said don't bow out Marco! Based on your post here and the warning in the PM you just sent me I have no choice.....
Bye.
You said don't bow out Marco!
Yes, but what I expected was an acknowledgment that the argument was (yet again) becoming circular, and perhaps some appreciation and understanding for how others who don't think like you feel with regard to this topic, other than being bludgeoned by yet more of your incredibly arrogant, rude and patronising so-called 'truths'!
I did qualify your continued input to the discussion by adding the proviso: "as long as you do it in a friendly and respectful manner", which quite clearly, the contents of your post (#125) weren't. Instead, they were patronising in the extreme.
You never seem to learn and *get* when it's appropriate to STFU and back down, before you start pissing people off, many of whom here will be your customers, or potential ones. As usual, you possess an innate ability for spectacularly shooting yourself in the foot - and that's why you were warned.
Now please heed that warning and learn from it in future. No other EE or trade member here causes me the grief you do!
Marco.
Sovereign
13-01-2017, 13:59
It simply baffles me how kids are tought theories in school as if they are fact. I could give a load of examples. I always believe that there is FAR more that we don't know than what we know, for me that's a correct perspective as it keeps you leaning forward scientificly.
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 14:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBtP0m6qmqU
Yeah... we're going round in the old old circles on this :) I guess where we HUGELY differ is that to me, if, for example, someone claims the earth to be flat then I feel fully justified in saying "The world is DEFINITELY round, you ARE wrong. That is a certainty"... Whereas you are happy to say "if you think the world is flat then maybe it is, who knows, maybe every geography book is wrong and all the shots of the earth from space have been doctored, it's not impossible" :D
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 15:00
It simply baffles me how kids are tought theories in school as if they are fact. I could give a load of examples. I always believe that there is FAR more that we don't know than what we know, for me that's a correct perspective as it keeps you leaning forward scientificly.
+1 it also keeps things interesting/entertaining so long as it's safe.
Some things work for some and not for others. It's no big deal. This is what keeps this forum groovin' :)
+1 it also keeps things interesting/entertaining so long as it's safe.
Some things work for some and not for others. It's no big deal. This is what keeps this forum groovin' :)
:thumbsup:
RothwellAudio
13-01-2017, 15:07
There exists the possibility of another explanation here. I'm with Jez that the fuse cannot made an audible difference, however I believe Gaz when he says he heard a difference. How can the two be reconciled? The first possibility is expectation bias. The second possibility is an overlooked variable. Let me digress slightly for a moment.
I once heard a tale about a miraculous horse that could do maths. The horse was asked to do some simple arithmetic and it would give the answer by stomping its hoof a number of times. It was correct with nearly every question! How could it do it? It turned out that there was no deception on the part of the horse's owner, but there was an overlooked variable - the reaction of the observers. When the horse had stamped its hoof the correct number of times the observers would subtly change their body posture and facial expressions and the horse would pick up on that and stop stamping. When this overlooked variable was spotted the horse's miraculous ability was shown to be something else entirely.
So how does that relate to the "magic fuse"? Well, it would be entirely understandable that before replacing a fuse the equipment is turned off and disconnected from the mains. Maybe the volume control was turned down too. Without taking some measures to ensure the system was played at exactly the same volume after the fuse was replaced it would be quite possible for the playback volume to be a smidge louder. A smidge louder often leads to a better sound. So the observer does detect a real improvement, but it isn't due to the replaced fuse. It's just an overlooked variable.
Anyway, that's just something to ponder.
narabdela
13-01-2017, 15:08
It simply baffles me how kids are tought theories in school as if they are fact.
Are they? Facts are facts. Theories are theories. I don't know of any curriculum that deviates from that path.
RothwellAudio
13-01-2017, 15:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBtP0m6qmqU
I know we're not supposed to be abusive on the forum but the guy in that video is a nob.
There exists the possibility of another explanation here. I'm with Jez that the fuse cannot made an audible difference, however I believe Gaz when he says he heard a difference. How can the two be reconciled? The first possibility is expectation bias. The second possibility is an overlooked variable. Let me digress slightly for a moment.
I once heard a tale about a miraculous horse that could do maths. The horse was asked to do some simple arithmetic and it would give the answer by stomping its hoof a number of times. It was correct with nearly every question! How could it do it? It turned out that there was no deception on the part of the horse's owner, but there was an overlooked variable - the reaction of the observers. When the horse had stamped its hoof the correct number of times the observers would subtly change their body posture and facial expressions and the horse would pick up on that and stop stamping. When this overlooked variable was spotted the horse's miraculous ability was shown to be something else entirely.
So how does that relate to the "magic fuse"? Well, it would be entirely understandable that before replacing a fuse the equipment is turned off and disconnected from the mains. Maybe the volume control was turned down too. Without taking some measures to ensure the system was played at exactly the same volume after the fuse was replaced it would be quite possible for the playback volume to be a smidge louder. A smidge louder often leads to a better sound. So the observer does detect a real improvement, but it isn't due to the replaced fuse. It's just an overlooked variable.
Anyway, that's just something to ponder.
Interesting about the horse, and unquestionably what you're inferring, especially in your last paragraph, is relevant to the discussion. That indeed could've happened, and without the knowledge of the listener.
However, how about a simpler explanation, in terms of 'audiophile' fuses having lower electrical resistance, due to how they're constructed internally and the materials used, compared with standard ones, which is perhaps why using them in a revealing, well-sorted system, results in both an audible sonic improvement and a reduction in safety! ;)
In the absence of what you've suggested happening, I'm happy to go with that - especially as I know first-hand, from many years of experimenting with how hi-fi systems react, sonically, to receiving power from the mains supply, just how significant it can be removing a major 'bottleneck' from that chain.
Marco (who hard-wires his system, for that very reason, as far as is practically possible).
RothwellAudio
13-01-2017, 15:36
However, how about a simpler explanation, in terms of 'audiophile' fuses having lower electrical resistance, due to how they're constructed internally and the materials used, compared with standard ones, which is perhaps why using them in a revealing, well-sorted system, results in both an audible sonic improvement and a reduction in safety! ;)
That would seem extremely unlikely to me, if not impossible. As Jez has pointed out, after the fuse comes a whole load of stuff - transformer, rectifiers, capacitors, regulators - and there would seem to be a lot more possible explanations to eliminate before that one is the only one left.
I know we're not supposed to be abusive on the forum but the guy in that video is a nob.
He makes a very good case :D. His camera shots not observing the curvature is great print. Unfortunately he fails to grasp that its extremely difficult to do that at anything under 35,000 feet, while having a 65 degree view unobstructed. If he looked through binoculars at a ship on horizon he would probably notice it, and that indeed was how man first found it. Alas that doesnt sell so well in the sticks....much better a conspiracy
That would seem extremely unlikely to me, if not impossible. As Jez has pointed out, after the fuse comes a whole load of stuff - transformer, rectifiers, capacitors, regulators - and there would seem to be a lot more possible explanations to eliminate before that one is the only one left.
Sure, yet, it was the only variable altered, during the experiment, with everything else remaining the same? That was certainly the case when I tried it and concluded, after much testing, subjectively, that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses were effecting a notable sonic improvement, over standard fuses, in all equipment fitted with them.
Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree, as I've heard the effect many times of reducing resistance (and also lowering impedance) in the mains supply, powering hi-fi systems, and the nature of the sonic effects gained with the use of the above fuses aligns with what I've heard before, when I've achieved the same improvements by introducing mains upgrades elsewhere in the chain.
Marco.
Standard fuses my induce noise into system that the fancier ones dont. Its after the main transformer supply that youve maybe cleaned with your fancy doodas, and may reintroduce it. Maybe why some folk dont use fuses in their designs... just a thought
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 15:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8m1u2ORXmE
He makes a very good case :D. His camera shots not observing the curvature is great print. Unfortunately he fails to grasp that its extremely difficult to do that at anything under 35,000 feet, while having a 65 degree view unobstructed. If he looked through binoculars at a ship on horizon he would probably notice it, and that indeed was how man first found it. Alas that doesnt sell so well in the sticks....much better a conspiracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8m1u2ORXmE
Was of course the Greeks that first noticed it.... damn splitters;)
It simply baffles me how kids are tought theories in school as if they are fact. I could give a load of examples. I always believe that there is FAR more that we don't know than what we know, for me that's a correct perspective as it keeps you leaning forward scientificly.
Yeah. I reckon that instead of kids just being told sulphuric acid is poisonous, they should be given some to drink.
Probably won't be much worse than them drinking Coca-Cola! ;)
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 16:04
And then, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDhVoWSrMg
Standard fuses my induce noise into system that the fancier ones dont. Its after the main transformer supply that youve maybe cleaned with your fancy doodas, and may reintroduce it. Maybe why some folk dont use fuses in their designs... just a thought
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 16:09
But then,,,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfbvwqjITLg
Was of course the Greeks that first noticed it.... damn splitters;)
And then, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDhVoWSrMg
Thats not binocculars tho, and i bet the viewer aint an aincient Greek. Its also a damn big boat without sails
Wee Update.
Taking the comments on board here, I swapped the stock fuse back in to sanity check what I was hearing.
What works for me is whenever I do a change I live with it a while and revert back to how it was before.
This 'sanity check' lets me hear directly the change.
So after a wee while I swapped back to the stock fuse and sat down to listen.
£90 is two good bottles of malt so wouldnt be unhappy to return it!
However,
A very noticable dip in sound quality...Soundstage collapsed, loss of detail and air at the top end...lots of other hifi wordy bollocks just not as good.
Re-deoxited the stock fuse and 'dry wiped' it a couple of times...no improvement to the sound.
SR fuse back in...thats better.
Not really so much the hifi stuff, which it does a lot better, but more the timing and musical stuff?
Listening to Zeppelin Live BBC Sessions and its things like how John Paul Jones is timing his bass runs to Jimmy Page's solo's makes it feel more like a live performance.
That kinda thing and its not an in your face thing, its just there.
John Peel introduces 'Immigrant Song' and his voice sounds really in the room, but is quietly spoken and to the background.
When the track starts proper the drums kick in it just crashes right over the top of you.
In comparison between the two theres a sense of 'Life' and realism thats just not there with the stock fuse.
Swapped back and forth enough times and yup, its repeatable and noticable enough to satisfy me.
*sigh*
Soft drinks for me for a while, ah well. :)
Yeah. I reckon that instead of kids just being told sulphuric acid is poisonous, they should be given some to drink.
Can think of a few to try that on
:lol:
He makes a very good case :D. His camera shots not observing the curvature is great print. Unfortunately he fails to grasp that its extremely difficult to do that at anything under 35,000 feet, while having a 65 degree view unobstructed. If he looked through binoculars at a ship on horizon he would probably notice it, and that indeed was how man first found it. Alas that doesnt sell so well in the sticks....much better a conspiracy
Yeah. I reckon that instead of kids just being told sulphuric acid is poisonous, they should be given some to drink.
Seeing some of the yobs pouring out of schools... would be a good education!
(gawd, how old did I sound there...'Youth of Today' etc etc)
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 16:36
:lol:
My point is; if we cannot, or will not provide absolute proof, then we must allow, and therefore accept that there will be those with diffrent opinions, and beliefs to our own, and embrace them, until such times when unquestionable proof' either way becomes available.:)
Thats not binocculars tho, and i bet the viewer aint an aincient Greek. Its also a damn big boat without sails
RobbieGong
13-01-2017, 16:38
Wee Update.
Taking the comments on board here, I swapped the stock fuse back in to sanity check what I was hearing.
What works for me is whenever I do a change I live with it a while and revert back to how it was before.
This 'sanity check' lets me hear directly the change.
So after a wee while I swapped back to the stock fuse and sat down to listen.
£90 is two good bottles of malt so wouldnt be unhappy to return it!
However,
A very noticable dip in sound quality...Soundstage collapsed, loss of detail and air at the top end...lots of other hifi wordy bollocks just not as good.
Re-deoxited the stock fuse and 'dry wiped' it a couple of times...no improvement to the sound.
SR fuse back in...thats better.
Not really so much the hifi stuff, which it does a lot better, but more the timing and musical stuff?
Listening to Zeppelin Live BBC Sessions and its things like how John Paul Jones is timing his bass runs to Jimmy Page's solo's makes it feel more like a live performance.
That kinda thing and its not an in your face thing, its just there.
John Peel introduces 'Immigrant Song' and his voice sounds really in the room, but is quietly spoken and to the background.
When the track starts proper the drums kick in it just crashes right over the top of you.
In comparison between the two theres a sense of 'Life' and realism thats just not there with the stock fuse.
Swapped back and forth enough times and yup, its repeatable and noticable enough to satisfy me.
*sigh*
Soft drinks for me for a while, ah well. :)
All that sounds good enough for me Gaz - well worth a try I'd say :)
That would seem extremely unlikely to me, if not impossible. As Jez has pointed out, after the fuse comes a whole load of stuff - transformer, rectifiers, capacitors, regulators - and there would seem to be a lot more possible explanations to eliminate before that one is the only one left.
Fair point Andrew,
But if the fuse is the first step in the chain, everything is filtered through that?
Some assumptions just for thought:
If that first step (fuse) restricts things at all, and for talkings sake say a 'better' fuse restricts it less...the improvement might be carried downstream in the chain?
RothwellAudio
13-01-2017, 16:48
Fair point Andrew,
But if the fuse is the first step in the chain, everything is filtered through that?
Some assumptions just for thought:
If that first step (fuse) restricts things at all, and for talkings sake say a 'better' fuse restricts it less...the improvement might be carried downstream in the chain?
That would be the case if the fuse was somewhere in the chain of a simple power supply with no voltage regulator, but a regulator's job is to deliver a stable voltage with a low output impedance regardless of what is upstream of the regulator.
brian2957
13-01-2017, 16:51
Fair point Andrew,
But if the fuse is the first step in the chain, everything is filtered through that?
Some assumptions just for thought:
If that first step (fuse) restricts things at all, and for talkings sake say a 'better' fuse restricts it less...the improvement might be carried downstream in the chain?
Can you repeat this test for me bud.
Well Lindsay and others were right, Marco was waiting for the Flatty boot to play the hypocrite card. He has a point, and yes it is the steady drip of disruption <snip>... but the need to create conflict finally pulled my chain.
You mean precisely like your cronies and you have done on any forum you've been a member of, and why you've ended up being banned, for eventually trying the patience of a saint! :doh:
Creating conflict is your speciality! But sometimes you don't realise how you've created it, and it's often as a result of the aggressive/abrasive way you communicate with people, which you seem to consider as 'normal', that prompts said conflict. Here's something for you to read (and hopefully digest): https://uniquedevelopment.com/blog/dealing-with-abrasive-personalities/
You had THREE chances on AoS to behave (and so were unbanned and given more opportunities to fit in than anyone else to date), and blew them all, simply because you were more interested in winning arguments, and wanting your perceived 'guru status' acknowledged to your satisfaction, including insulting everyone you disagreed with, than fitting in harmoniously within a small on-line audio community, and respecting how things here were done.
At one stage, it even got so bad that I received an ultimatum from my (then) co-administrator (Fliterlab), that I had to choose between him and you, as you'd wound him up so much with your belligerent/argumentative and abrasive style of posting, that he couldn't take it anymore! Given the circumstances, it wasn't a difficult choice to make.
That was the last and final time you got anywhere near AoS. And it's been a similar story on the other forums you've been banned from, where it's always someone else's fault, not yours. You need to learn to take responsibility for your actions.
Until you grasp the concept that forums, such as AoS, don't operate under the rules of a professional debating society, and certainly are not your personal playground on which to rant as you please, and learn to curb your abrasive/confrontational personality and think of others, not just yourself, you won't be welcome anywhere else either. *That* I can assure you.
The fact that you can't see how you've reacted to flatty as being IDENTICAL to how people here reacted to your presence, and the unwelcome disturbance and stress it caused to many members and admin/mods alike, is ample evidence of how blinkered and divorced you are from any semblance of reality.
Look in the mirror for once, Richard, and see that you're often guilty of committing precisely the same behaviour yourself, which you accuse others of.
There... That's me said my piece - for now! ;)
Marco.
Cool,
Thats the case, sure, but just looking for a causal effect (like the rest of us!) for what I'm hearing.?
Question from a Layman...Regulated voltage and impedance might not be the only factors?
Know what?
I'm going to email Synergystic Reserach and ask the question.
Sure theres IP issues and they wont give too much away, but if they give us anything it'd be a shed load more than I know.
So lets see if they shed any light.
Probably won't be much worse than them drinking Coca-Cola! ;)
Marco.
Pretty deadly stuff .. corrosive as hell . Its surprisingly in quite a few cleaners, or was. If you survived it, youd likely wish you hadn't. Then there is sulfuric acid ;)
Joking aside, never muck about with that stuff. Its viscious
:lol:
My point is; if we cannot, or will not provide absolute proof, then we must allow, and therefore accept that there will be those with diffrent opinions, and beliefs to our own, and embrace them, until such times when unquestionable proof' either way becomes available.:)
Hear, hear! If only some folk, too caught up in their egos and scientific belief systems, would acknowledge and embrace the above......
Marco.
Wee Update.
Taking the comments on board here, I swapped the stock fuse back in to sanity check what I was hearing.
What works for me is whenever I do a change I live with it a while and revert back to how it was before.
This 'sanity check' lets me hear directly the change.
So after a wee while I swapped back to the stock fuse and sat down to listen.
£90 is two good bottles of malt so wouldnt be unhappy to return it!
However,
A very noticable dip in sound quality...Soundstage collapsed, loss of detail and air at the top end...lots of other hifi wordy bollocks just not as good.
Re-deoxited the stock fuse and 'dry wiped' it a couple of times...no improvement to the sound.
SR fuse back in...thats better.
Not really so much the hifi stuff, which it does a lot better, but more the timing and musical stuff?
Listening to Zeppelin Live BBC Sessions and its things like how John Paul Jones is timing his bass runs to Jimmy Page's solo's makes it feel more like a live performance.
That kinda thing and its not an in your face thing, its just there.
John Peel introduces 'Immigrant Song' and his voice sounds really in the room, but is quietly spoken and to the background.
When the track starts proper the drums kick in it just crashes right over the top of you.
In comparison between the two theres a sense of 'Life' and realism thats just not there with the stock fuse.
Swapped back and forth enough times and yup, its repeatable and noticable enough to satisfy me.
*sigh*
Soft drinks for me for a while, ah well. :)
I have a bone to pick with your post above.
£90 won't buy you two good bottles of single malt. It will only buy you two reasonable bottles. :ner:
:lol:
My point is; if we cannot, or will not provide absolute proof, then we must allow, and therefore accept that there will be those with diffrent opinions, and beliefs to our own, and embrace them, until such times when unquestionable proof' either way becomes available.:)
Hey, i always do. ..Within reason ;)
Pretty deadly stuff .. corrosive as hell . Its surprisingly in quite a few cleaners, or was. If you survived it, youd likely wish you hadn't. Then there is sulfuric acid ;)
Joking aside, never muck about with that stuff. Its viscious
Good for cleaning valve pins!
(Cola not sulphuric acid...saying that I've never actually tried it?) :)
I have a bone to pick with your post above.
£90 won't buy you two good bottles of single malt. It will only buy you two reasonable bottles. :ner:
This...may be an insurmountable fact. :)
I have a bone to pick with your post above.
£90 won't buy you two good bottles of single malt. It will only buy you two reasonable bottles. :ner:
Itll buy a dozen bottles of Buckie, with plenty change for beer, crisps and rollies :D
Itll buy a dozen bottles of Buckie, with plenty change for beer, crisps and rollies :D
Ya Dancer!
Firebottle
13-01-2017, 17:51
I though I'd put the results of a bit of testing into the thread .
I took all the 'slow blow' 3.15A fuses out of my draw and tested the resistance of each one. (sod all comes to mind :eyebrows:)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050897_1.jpg
There are five different types, these I have called 'Spot', Thin spiral, Thick spiral, 'wire and spring' and Ceramic.
The test meter showed 0.016 ohms when the test clips were shorted together, i. e. no fuse, so subtract this from the following for the actual resistance of each fuse.
Spot. 0.047, 0,047, 0.042, 0.043, 0.039 ohms.
Thin Spiral. 0.039, 0.049 ohms.
Thick spiral. 0.045, 0.047, 0.043 ohms.
Wire and spring. 0.047 ohms.
Ceramic. 0.047 ohms.
Make of this as you will but they seem fairly consistent.
wee tee cee
13-01-2017, 17:56
Cant help but think with stuff like this a few members getting together and trying the array of whats being compared is invaluable.
If its pish its pish!!!
However If you all hear similar things but not necessarily agree on what is best, it gives great insight.
I would love for some of the contributors in this great thread to actually get some different fuses together and try them.
Jez if its nonsense get a few members together shawcase your products and simply swap the fuses.
A few cakes some decent tea and coffee( or Scottish version red/white or malt) makes it a great get together with some tunes and like minded folk.
Cant help but think with stuff like this a few members getting together and trying the array of whats being compared is invaluable.
If its pish its pish!!!
However If you all hear similar things but not necessarily agree on what is best, it gives great insight.
I would love for some of the contributors in this great thread to actually get some different fuses together and try them.
Jez if its nonsense get a few members together shawcase your products and simply swap the fuses.
A few cakes some decent tea and coffee( or Scottish version red/white or malt) makes it a great get together with some tunes and like minded folk.
Tony...
Reassuring sound of nail hitting head.
Would really like you to bring your fuses sitting downstairs to mine and we can compare.
What's to lose...I have no ego to bruise.
Been a while buddy and the systems changed a fair bit.
JM sounds a lot better!
I though I'd put the results of a bit of testing into the thread .
I took all the 'slow blow' 3.15A fuses out of my draw and tested the resistance of each one. (sod all comes to mind :eyebrows:)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050897_1.jpg
There are five different types, these I have called 'Spot', Thin spiral, Thick spiral, 'wire and spring' and Ceramic.
The test meter showed 0.016 ohms when the test clips were shorted together, i. e. no fuse, so subtract this from the following for the actual resistance of each fuse.
Spot. 0.047, 0,047, 0.042, 0.043, 0.039 ohms.
Thin Spiral. 0.039, 0.049 ohms.
Thick spiral. 0.045, 0.047, 0.043 ohms.
Wire and spring. 0.047 ohms.
Ceramic. 0.047 ohms.
Make of this as you will but they seem fairly consistent.
No fuse has it, but there aint much in it?
And is it audable?
brian2957
13-01-2017, 18:12
Tony...
Reassuring sound of nail hitting head.
Would really like you to bring your fuses sitting downstairs to mine and we can compare.
What's to lose...I have no ego to bruise.
Been a while buddy and the systems changed a fair bit.
JM sounds a lot better!
Count me in :)
I though I'd put the results of a bit of testing into the thread .
I took all the 'slow blow' 3.15A fuses out of my draw and tested the resistance of each one. (sod all comes to mind :eyebrows:)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050897_1.jpg
There are five different types, these I have called 'Spot', Thin spiral, Thick spiral, 'wire and spring' and Ceramic.
The test meter showed 0.016 ohms when the test clips were shorted together, i. e. no fuse, so subtract this from the following for the actual resistance of each fuse.
Spot. 0.047, 0,047, 0.042, 0.043, 0.039 ohms.
Thin Spiral. 0.039, 0.049 ohms.
Thick spiral. 0.045, 0.047, 0.043 ohms.
Wire and spring. 0.047 ohms.
Ceramic. 0.047 ohms.
Make of this as you will but they seem fairly consistent.
Sounds about what id expect. In hundreths. Of course that will change with current.
The Black Adder
13-01-2017, 18:23
I have a bone to pick with your post above.
£90 won't buy you two good bottles of single malt. It will only buy you two reasonable bottles. :ner:
...or 20 bottles of Teachers including a brown bag... lol :)
anthonyTD
13-01-2017, 18:23
Thanks for taking the time to do that Alan,
I was actualy thinking of doing the same thing, but you beat me to it.:D
There is a diffrence, and i supose it is posible that even this small diffrence could have an affect once presented with a load!
A...
I though I'd put the results of a bit of testing into the thread .
I took all the 'slow blow' 3.15A fuses out of my draw and tested the resistance of each one. (sod all comes to mind :eyebrows:)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050897_1.jpg
There are five different types, these I have called 'Spot', Thin spiral, Thick spiral, 'wire and spring' and Ceramic.
The test meter showed 0.016 ohms when the test clips were shorted together, i. e. no fuse, so subtract this from the following for the actual resistance of each fuse.
Spot. 0.047, 0,047, 0.042, 0.043, 0.039 ohms.
Thin Spiral. 0.039, 0.049 ohms.
Thick spiral. 0.045, 0.047, 0.043 ohms.
Wire and spring. 0.047 ohms.
Ceramic. 0.047 ohms.
Make of this as you will but they seem fairly consistent.
...or 20 bottles of Teachers including a brown bag... lol :)
Teacher's Highland Cream . A very famous blended whisky, a rather good blend too. Jim Murray awarded Teacher's Highland Cream 90 points in his Whisky Bible.
ps I think he might have been a tad tipsy ;)
I though I'd put the results of a bit of testing into the thread .
I took all the 'slow blow' 3.15A fuses out of my draw and tested the resistance of each one. (sod all comes to mind :eyebrows:)
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1050897_1.jpg
There are five different types, these I have called 'Spot', Thin spiral, Thick spiral, 'wire and spring' and Ceramic.
The test meter showed 0.016 ohms when the test clips were shorted together, i. e. no fuse, so subtract this from the following for the actual resistance of each fuse.
Spot. 0.047, 0,047, 0.042, 0.043, 0.039 ohms.
Thin Spiral. 0.039, 0.049 ohms.
Thick spiral. 0.045, 0.047, 0.043 ohms.
Wire and spring. 0.047 ohms.
Ceramic. 0.047 ohms.
Make of this as you will but they seem fairly consistent.
Thanks for doing that, Alan. Interesting... Now all you need to do is obtain an 'audiophile fuse', measure that, and see how it compares! ;)
Btw, observe the sagging of the filament inside the fuse, third down on the R/H side. A classic case of physical deterioration, IME, from having been used/'stressed' over a long period of time inside equipment constantly being switched on and off.
That's what I was referring to earlier. The filament would've been nice and straight, when new, and thus able to perform at its maximum electrical potential.
Here's a thought: how about measuring the resistance of what you know to be an old, well-used fuse, versus a brand new one of the same type/value (and from the same manufacturer), and see if there's a notable difference in their measured resistance?
Then we might obtain some evidence as to whether or not fuses do deteriorate after a period of use :)
Marco.
wee tee cee
13-01-2017, 18:30
Bussman/russ andrews/ phonosphie fuses thrown into a bourboun and vino maelstrom(with some meat products so I dont get mangled).
Shit...we did it with co-ax/opticals sesh and suffered the slings and arrows of the ones and zeros brigade-couldnt give flying monkeys fuck TBH.
Im still interested enough to try stuff and have a bit of a laugh doing it.
PM me ( saddened the usual cyclic devisive argument occurs-try for yourself s fellas then come to the table with your personal experience)
Good music/company/booze/grub and maybe the odd fuse change-right up my street!!!
Aye, and some 'male bonding' afterwards, in the classic Glasgow tradition? :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
13-01-2017, 18:38
Aye, and some 'male bonding' afterwards, in the classic Glasgow tradition? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Doesn't involve sheep does it?.............Nah, I'm thinking of something else I think. :D
wee tee cee
13-01-2017, 18:42
Yup...taps aff....who the fuck are you growling at (then realising you had been for a pee and you are looking into the bathroom mirror)!!
Yup...taps aff....who the fuck are you growling at (then realising you had been for a pee and you are looking into the bathroom mirror)!!
Been there...:lol:
:lolsign:
Or worse, waking up and seeing a manky, hairy-chested growler lying next to you, and feeling an ache in your arse! :D
Marco.
You said that, not me Marco!
Wot? You're normally in there if there's a frock and a bag of Smarties on offer! :eyebrows:;)
Marco.
Tis true, but that's a different conversation... :)
tubehunter
13-01-2017, 21:35
Interesting
http://www.graphene.manchester.ac.uk/explore/what-can-graphene-do/
Oldpinkman
14-01-2017, 07:40
I have a bone to pick with your post above.
£90 won't buy you two good bottles of single malt. It will only buy you two reasonable bottles. :ner:
Oh f***. I looked in to see if you were over here cos you weren't over there, and worse, much worse, they were talking fuses over there.
And I find you here talking fuses. Thank Evans for tax returns
farflungstar
14-01-2017, 09:03
This thread has been soooo interesting. I think I'll take a look at the fuses in my Cary's today - they've been in there years!
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
Is it that there may be a safety issue? The fuse will not perform as a standard one in the event of a fault?
Yes, that's more than possible. Probably not an issue with the fuse in the plug as it's only really protecting the primary winding of the mains transformer. If IT goes then chances are the transformer had developed a fault and was scrap anyway. I'd be more worried about replacing the little fast blow ones in the DC circuits with slower acting fuses. Probably wreck the PCB in the event of a fault.
That seems to be what Anthony TD is driving at with his comments. I've no problem with experimenting with the fuse in the plug. Not personally so keen on swapping internal fuses out.
I run my amp and CD player from a short 2 gang extension lead. I intend to replace the fuse in it tonight with some copper wire and see what I hear, or don't hear, just for my own interest (each piece of equipment has its own fuse in their plugs anyway). From an engineering POV I'm with Jez on this one but I also been around long enough to realise not everything is explainable so keeping an open mind. :)
**However** I'm off to collect a new amp to try out so I may not get round to the fuse business if it's a good 'un. :D
In the days when I was majorly into the whole mains malarkey, around 10 years ago, one of the chief 'protagonists' then, a Mr Roy K Riches, made up some 'copper blanks', which essentially were solid-copper blocks he'd machined into the dimensions of a 13A fuse, with rounded edges and all, so it just clipped into the plug nicely! :eyebrows:
Made a nice difference too, and I used them for a while, before I discovered the joys of hard-wiring... ;)
Marco.
Oh f***. I looked in to see if you were over here cos you weren't over there, and worse, much worse, they were talking fuses over there.
And I find you here talking fuses. Thank Evans for tax returns
:wave:
I didn't mention fuses in that post...
I did ask a question over there, which they have all neglected to answer.
Stratmangler
14-01-2017, 11:27
:wave:
I didn't mention fuses in that post...
I did ask a question over there, which they have all neglected to answer.
You won't get an answer here either.
I suspect that these fuses don't have any testing certification, which means that they don't meet electrical regs.
Certainly no BS Kitemark anywhere.
In that long thread I linked to on AudioGon, guys had been using Synergystic fuses for years though so thats at least encouraging!
Stratmangler
14-01-2017, 12:10
Definitely don't meet electrical regs then :eek:
Well, not officially. I guess its a question of sound v safety. A question indeed. Do the other hifi fuses have kite marks?
Well, not officially. I guess its a question of sound v safety. A question indeed. Do the other hifi fuses have kite marks?
Good point Grant, hadn't even thought of that.
The internal glass ones dont.
And thats what Im swapping out.
It is only the 1" long fuses that fit into the 13A plugs that need to conform to BS1362 and be marked as such, along with the BS safety 'kitemark'.
Thought panel ones do have kite marks on. . ? Maybe its not mandatory on those.
It is only the 1" long fuses that fit into the 13A plugs that need to conform to BS1362 and be marked as such, along with the BS safety 'kitemark'.
Ah ha...
Didn't know that.
As I'm only fitting internal ones, feel better about using them now.
Stratmangler
14-01-2017, 14:22
Why is there a kite mark on this then?
http://i960.photobucket.com/albums/ae88/Stratmangler/fuses_zpsotfwhee7.jpg (http://s960.photobucket.com/user/Stratmangler/media/fuses_zpsotfwhee7.jpg.html)
5 x 20mm fuses are made to a different standard from plug top fuses.
Here's a data sheet for fast blow(F), the ones in the photo are time delay(T) type.
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1363/0900766b81363fce.pdf
Piccy no worky......
Marco.
Piccy no worky......
Marco.
Displaying on my iPad.
Here's the link.
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/1363/0900766b81363fce.pdf
Dat's better... The link works, but the pic doesn't, using Chrome, as a browser.
Marco.
09mike69
14-01-2017, 20:53
There exists the possibility of another explanation here. I'm with Jez that the fuse cannot made an audible difference, however I believe Gaz when he says he heard a difference. How can the two be reconciled? The first possibility is expectation bias. The second possibility is an overlooked variable. Let me digress slightly for a moment.
I once heard a tale about a miraculous horse that could do maths. The horse was asked to do some simple arithmetic and it would give the answer by stomping its hoof a number of times. It was correct with nearly every question! How could it do it? It turned out that there was no deception on the part of the horse's owner, but there was an overlooked variable - the reaction of the observers. When the horse had stamped its hoof the correct number of times the observers would subtly change their body posture and facial expressions and the horse would pick up on that and stop stamping. When this overlooked variable was spotted the horse's miraculous ability was shown to be something else entirely.
So how does that relate to the "magic fuse"? Well, it would be entirely understandable that before replacing a fuse the equipment is turned off and disconnected from the mains. Maybe the volume control was turned down too. Without taking some measures to ensure the system was played at exactly the same volume after the fuse was replaced it would be quite possible for the playback volume to be a smidge louder. A smidge louder often leads to a better sound. So the observer does detect a real improvement, but it isn't due to the replaced fuse. It's just an overlooked variable.
Anyway, that's just something to ponder.
those horses where trained with food,, same as the pavlovs dog experiment.
09mike69
14-01-2017, 22:06
Well that's a great pity because everyone is indeed wrong on these and all other matters about fuses, which of course never effect sound under any circumstances.
To me this is a matter of deep concern as yet again we see people running round like headless chickens in pursuit of a wholly mythical "potential upgrade".
There is as much chance of these having an effect as there is of there being an actual pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.... the sad thing is one doesn't usually find oneself having to explain to adults that there isn't really a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
There are clever marketing people out there who exploit the fact that to the non technical electricity is "magic" and many people seem to want to believe in these things... so long as it is a simple unplug one thing and plug in another. This is something I keep going on about as I think it says it all: Take the lid off your pre amp DAC whatever and look how many parts there are. Now, why should it be the only part which you can simply unplug and then plug a new one in, without soldering, which should be so important to the sound? You've been had!
10+ pages now of chasing rainbows.... and if I started a thread, again concerning the quality of the power, but this time pertaining to areas that actually matter and are important, lets say the output impedance versus frequency of the voltage regulation, it would be lucky to get a page of comments because people find it too technical and so don't want to know!:doh:
I've used this analogy before but it's worth repeating. This is like watching a group of enthusiastic but non technical petrol heads discussing whether go faster stripes really make the car faster... and seeing many of them agreeing that they do (:eek:), and then when a real automotive engineer turns up and explains that go faster stripes cannot possibly actually make it faster, and to do that you need to re-map the fuel injection and fit higher lift camshafts, they all stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la la la we don't want to know, too technical and we're not going to listen to you so go away"
Have fun gluing them stripes on folks, I'll be expecting 0 - 60 times next week... :lol:
the OP clearly heard a difference....to HIS ears, as he said....we dont have his ears. i am not claiming there is no benefit to these fuses....just simply this.... i appreciate arkless electronics educated input on matters such as these...level_headed ?...yes... insulting ?.. i didnt think so... agreeable ?...no...
diplomatic ? lol, fuck no..... relevant ? YES definitely.. theres too much snake oil in this game..an it can be expensive...
i really appreciate his opinion
keep it coming, buddy.
p.s. great thread,,,got us all talkin eh :cool:
I run my amp and CD player from a short 2 gang extension lead. I intend to replace the fuse in it tonight with some copper wire and see what I hear, or don't hear, just for my own interest (each piece of equipment has its own fuse in their plugs anyway). From an engineering POV I'm with Jez on this one but I also been around long enough to realise not everything is explainable so keeping an open mind. :)
Well, this is interesting :)
Stripped a bit of tri-rated (read flexible multi strand) 1.5mm2 single copper cable and wrapped it around the two fuse posts in the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper in place. EVERYTHING is better sounding. Had it in and out a few times but you'd be deaf not to hear the difference. Spurred on by this I then wired this copper straight into the live terminal along with the live cable and just wrapped it around the live pin of the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper to the pin.
There's a refinement (removal of distortion), and a silence to backgrounds that has improved the soundstage in all directions. Sounds are much better placed and detail is just popping out. There's increased emotional conveyance too I think due to the improved dynamics.
I am hearing further into the mix for sure and you can appreciate the musicians' skills more.
My preconceptions were that this was a waste of time but I was wrong. All I can think is that this has lowered the impedance of the mains supply.
Oh, volume control wasn't touched during comparisons.
Thanks Gaz for posting.
:thumbsup:
Well, this is interesting :)
Stripped a bit of tri-rated (read flexible multi strand) 1.5mm2 single copper cable and wrapped it around the two fuse posts in the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper in place. EVERYTHING is better sounding. Had it in and out a few times but you'd be deaf not to hear the difference. Spurred on by this I then wired this copper straight into the live terminal along with the live cable and just wrapped it around the live pin of the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper to the pin.
There's a refinement (removal of distortion), and a silence to backgrounds that has improved the soundstage in all directions. Sounds are much better placed and detail is just popping out. There's increased emotional conveyance too I think due to the improved dynamics.
I am hearing further into the mix for sure and you can appreciate the musicians skills more.
My preconceptions were that this was a waste of time but I was wrong. All I can think is that this has lowered the impedance of the mains supply.
Oh, volume control wasn't touched during comparisons.
Thanks Gaz for posting.
the OP clearly heard a difference....to HIS ears, as he said....we dont have his ears. i am not claiming there is no benefit to these fuses....just simply this.... i appreciate arkless electronics educated input on matters such as these...level_headed ?...yes... insulting ?.. i didnt think so... agreeable ?...no...
diplomatic ? lol, fuck no..... relevant ? YES definitely.. theres too much snake oil in this game..an it can be expensive...
i really appreciate his opinion
keep it coming, buddy.
p.s. great thread,,,got us all talkin eh :cool:
Fair comment, and Jez is a good guy with knowledge most of us dont have.
Everyones default position should be to call out bullshit when we see it.
Well, this is interesting :)
Stripped a bit of tri-rated (read flexible multi strand) 1.5mm2 single copper cable and wrapped it around the two fuse posts in the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper in place. EVERYTHING is better sounding. Had it in and out a few times but you'd be deaf not to hear the difference. Spurred on by this I then wired this copper straight into the live terminal along with the live cable and just wrapped it around the live pin of the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper to the pin.
There's a refinement (removal of distortion), and a silence to backgrounds that has improved the soundstage in all directions. Sounds are much better placed and detail is just popping out. There's increased emotional conveyance too I think due to the improved dynamics.
I am hearing further into the mix for sure and you can appreciate the musicians skills more.
My preconceptions were that this was a waste of time but I was wrong. All I can think is that this has lowered the impedance of the mains supply.
Oh, volume control wasn't touched during comparisons.
Thanks Gaz for posting.
Let's assume the fuse was one of 3A rating. As such it consists of a piece of copper wire 0.15mm diameter, 25.4mm long. At 50Hz this will have an impedance of 0.025 + j4.10-7Ohm.
Adding your piece of 1.5mm2 copper wire in parallel with the fuse will reduce this impedance to 0.0003 + j2.10-7Ohm.
A reduction in impedance certainly, but the typical source impedance of the UK mains (measured at the socket) is 0.25 + j0.23Ohm, so the reduction in overall source impedance is negligable. That is, you have gone from a source impedance of:
0.2750 + j0.2300004 Ohm
to
0.2503 + j0.2300002 Ohm.
You clearly heard what you heard, but I find it difficult to understand that it was down to reduced mains source impedance. :scratch:
The really interesting thing then Barry is working out what it was that caused the improvement that John heard.
Assuming improvement...what do you think might be a factor?
The really interesting thing then Barry is working out what it was that caused the improvement that John heard.
Assuming improvement...what do you think might be a factor?
To be honest I don't know. All I can surmise is the fuse clips and/or the fuse end caps must have been heavily tarnished, and/or the pins of the plug must also have been tarnished/dirty. In removing the plug to 'modify' the fuse these contacts were cleaned. But even so, I find it hard to believe that alone could account for what John heard.
I have at least 12 mains plug/socket interfaces in my system. I'm reluctant to de-mate and re-mate them all, to hear if there is a difference. I once tried an audiophile fuse given to me at an audio show I attended. Can't say it made any difference whatsoever to my ears, but obviously it could/would to some.
09mike69
15-01-2017, 00:58
Well, this is interesting :)
Stripped a bit of tri-rated (read flexible multi strand) 1.5mm2 single copper cable and wrapped it around the two fuse posts in the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper in place. EVERYTHING is better sounding. Had it in and out a few times but you'd be deaf not to hear the difference. Spurred on by this I then wired this copper straight into the live terminal along with the live cable and just wrapped it around the live pin of the plug and popped the fuse back in to hold the copper to the pin.
There's a refinement (removal of distortion), and a silence to backgrounds that has improved the soundstage in all directions. Sounds are much better placed and detail is just popping out. There's increased emotional conveyance too I think due to the improved dynamics.
I am hearing further into the mix for sure and you can appreciate the musicians' skills more.
My preconceptions were that this was a waste of time but I was wrong. All I can think is that this has lowered the impedance of the mains supply.
Oh, volume control wasn't touched during comparisons.
Thanks Gaz for posting.
did same thing and didnt notice any difference.
Firebottle
15-01-2017, 07:43
I think it is going to be system/gear dependent on whether a difference is heard.
I can appreciate Jez's stance on this but I must add a disclaimer to it. It will be down to how well the power supply/rectifiers/regulators are doing their job of removing mains related perturbations from the equation.
I think Jez is looking/assuming at a perfect power supply section, but not all are perfect.
:)
the OP clearly heard a difference....to HIS ears, as he said....we dont have his ears. i am not claiming there is no benefit to these fuses....just simply this.... i appreciate arkless electronics educated input on matters such as these...level_headed ?...yes... insulting ?.. i didnt think so... agreeable ?...no...
diplomatic ? lol, fuck no..... relevant ? YES definitely.. theres too much snake oil in this game..an it can be expensive...
i really appreciate his opinion
keep it coming, buddy.
p.s. great thread,,,got us all talkin eh :cool:
Fair do's, Mike, and I would add a '+1' to that.
Essentially, Jez just needs to brush up on his people skills a bit, and most importantly understand and accept that not everyone thinks the same as he does, and to make allowances for that in future. We've had a chat about that, and he understands.
I like Jez (he knows that), and consider him an asset to the forum, simply because of his technical knowledge and straight talking. I also know he's happy to be here. He just needs to rein-in his 'excesses' a little, that's all :)
Marco.
I think it is going to be system/gear dependent on whether a difference is heard.
I can appreciate Jez's stance on this but I must add a disclaimer to it. It will be down to how well the power supply/rectifiers/regulators are doing their job of removing mains related perturbations from the equation.
I think Jez is looking/assuming at a perfect power supply section, but not all are perfect.
:)
Have you done that fuse test yet I asked you to do earlier, daftee? ;)
Marco.
Firebottle
15-01-2017, 10:43
I haven't got an 'audiophile' fuse Marco :eek: ..
..so it would be a bit difficult to test.
Not that bit... I was referring to the testing of an old, well-used standard fuse, versus a brand new standard one (or a group of both, especially including ones with visible 'sagging filaments'), to see if there's any evidence that fuses 'deteriorate' over time, by measuring a higher resistance than they would've done when new....
Go on, give it a go and report back :)
Marco.
P.S Try and do 'like for like' comparisons, by ensuring that the fuse value and manufacturer, as well as type (clear glass or ceramic-bodied, etc), are the same, in order to keep variables to a minimum.
To be honest I don't know. All I can surmise is the fuse clips and/or the fuse end caps must have been heavily tarnished, and/or the pins of the plug must also have been tarnished/dirty. In removing the plug to 'modify' the fuse these contacts were cleaned. But even so, I find it hard to believe that alone could account for what John heard.
I recently had a 2db to 3db imbalance in my system. The culprit was a slighly tarnished anode cap connection to the driver valve of one channel. I can believe that tarnished fuse contacts could have significant sonic influence.
And then a bit of copper wire in place of
How can you see if a ceramic fuse has a sagging filament?
How can you see if a ceramic fuse has a sagging filament?
You take it apart silly:eek:
How can you see if a ceramic fuse has a sagging filament?
Precisely, so with those you won't know if the sagging filament thing is an issue (unless you take them apart), but their resistance, new or old, can still be measured. The sagging filament consideration would only apply, as being instantly visible, with the clear glass-type fuses :)
Marco.
And the auidiophile fuse, that is not clear glass?
The Black Adder
15-01-2017, 11:35
Maybe round pin fuse free plugs are the answer.. :)
I believe these are still considered safe under BS regulation... but could be wrong.
Maybe round pin fuse free plugs are the answer.. :)
I believe these are still considered safe under BS regulation... but could be wrong.
Dunno about that. My mums house had to be rewired when she died by buyer as it didnt come up to regs. Bar the kitchen it was all round plugged. 5 amp and big 15 amp. They were a much better fit, and you rarely ever saw any pitting on the pins that you often get on 13 amp ones.
I recently had a 2db to 3db imbalance in my system. The culprit was a slighly tarnished anode cap connection to the driver valve of one channel. I can believe that tarnished fuse contacts could have significant sonic influence.
In a high-resolution, top-quality system, Clive, *everything* matters: it's like maintaing the peak performance of a highly-tuned engine! ;)
Seriously though, it's easy to get blasé about this sort of stuff and have the attitude of 'it's all bollocks', but for me that encourages lazy thinking. And if you allow that state of mind to develop, then pretty soon anything other than a major component change in your system is relegated to the status of 'unimportance', and unlikely to do anything significant - and *that* is when you lose focus, systems eventually sound 'off song', and you find yourself becoming disinterested in using them or listening to music...
Electronic components, just like car engines, need 'serviced' occasionally, if they're to perform at their best, and also a little lateral thinking applied, in order to get the most out of them, which is precisely where this fuse thing comes in, along with cleaning all your contacts occasionally, etc.
In my experience, it's those who pay proper attention to all those things, rather than lazily plug their gear in, switch it on and expect it all to function fantastically forever, who have not only the best sounding systems, but the happiest and most rewarding relationship with audio - and most importantly with listening to music.
Paying attention to detail, with set-up and component optimisation, can be the difference between owning a good system and a great one! The devil truly *is* in the details :exactly:
Marco.
And the auidiophile fuse, that is not clear glass?
Interestingly, IME, most aren't... Not sure what that says about anything. Apparently ceramic is less resonant.
Marco.
And the auidiophile fuse, that is not clear glass?
You need to buy an audiophile X-ray machine to check for sagging filaments.
Don't let the wife catch you with a sagging filament!
Marco.
RobbieGong
15-01-2017, 14:32
Don't let the wife catch you with a sagging filament!
Marco.
:eek: :lol:
Don't let the wife catch you with a sagging filament!
Marco.
Better a saggy one than none at all mate ;)
....they only last so long ya know, then gravity takes over
Better a saggy one than none at all mate...
Heh-heh... Aye, and the ability and desire to use it! They say that when you get to a certain age, you lose the urge... ;)
Marco.
Heh-heh... Aye, and the ability and desire to use it! They say that when you get to a certain age, you lose the urge... ;)
Marco.
You do when your on the drugs im on.... usually get your kicks out of a pish
Aye, and the only 'excitement' you get is if you can manage it without dribbling! ;)
Never mind, we shouldn't joke about these things...
Marco.
Jac Hawk
15-01-2017, 15:17
Hi Marco, fuses react specifically to a given current flowing through them. They will allow their nominal rating to pass indefinitely but if the current increases beyond a certain level then the conductor inside the fuse will melt (blow). A very high current will cause the fuse to blow quickly, a current say just 100% above the fuse rating will take some time to blow the fuse. This relationship of current versus time is defined in a series of British Standards that fuse manufacturers *should* adhere to so that equipment designers can calculate how much energy a fuse will let through before blowing. They can then design the equipment to withstand this amount of energy so that minimum damage is caused before the fuse blows. For fuses in our standard 13A plugs this is BS1362.
*I think* what Anthony is saying is that if the fuse is made from a different conductor material it is unlikely to adhere to the same time/current curve as a BS1362 compliant fuse and so the protection level offered may be different.
I'd agree, there must be a difference in the speed / current required to blow the SR fuses, i'd be interested to hear from anyone who have had one blow on them and if their equipment it was protecting was unaffected, also i'd be interested to find out if the manufacturer of these fuses gave any guarantees for the equipment covered by them.
Everyone that has them say their equipment sounds better, but do they offer the same level of protection? at the end of the day, that's why a fuse is in the circuit in the 1st place and if they don't i wonder how many people would continue using them on the understanding that they maybe not offer the exact same level of protection?
Until someone tests some to destruction i guess its just a question mark. Doubt id use them as my system is probably not at the top end, and neither are my ears i guess these days. Im happy enough with what im hearing...more than happy actually.
Jac Hawk
15-01-2017, 15:35
Until someone tests some to destruction i guess its just a question mark. Doubt id use them as my system is probably not at the top end, and neither are my ears i guess these days. Im happy enough with what im hearing...more than happy actually.
+1:)
And the auidiophile fuse, that is not clear glass?
Looks like 'dis:
http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1183403-synergistic-research-sr-quantum-fuse-black.jpg
Remember its internal case fuses I'm swapping over, not the ones in the plug.
May do at some point though, just the one 13A plug in my system nowadays, all else hardwired from the balanced mains.
You do when your on the drugs im on.... usually get your kicks out of a pish
:lol:
Grant, you saucy knave...
Maybe round pin fuse free plugs are the answer.. :)
I believe these are still considered safe under BS regulation... but could be wrong.
UK round pin mains connectors (i.e the 5A and 15A round pin system to BS 546) are still safe to use (and do not infringe any regulations0 provided they are not used as part of a ring main. That is you cannot mix BS1363 connectors (the 13A rectangular pin style) with BS 546 round pin connectors.
BS 546 connectors can only be used on a radial system, where each socker must have its own feed back to the consumer unit and use a 15A (or 16A) rated circuit breaker.
You might have dificulty persuading an electrician to do it for you though.
The Black Adder
15-01-2017, 19:48
Ah... So they are only good for a separate radial circuit. Good for hifi I suppose.
Why wouldn't a sparky want to do that if it's all above board etc?
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