View Full Version : Wasn't gonna post this...
Dunno about that. My mums house had to be rewired when she died by buyer as it didnt come up to regs. Bar the kitchen it was all round plugged. 5 amp and big 15 amp. They were a much better fit, and you rarely ever saw any pitting on the pins that you often get on 13 amp ones.
Most 13A plugs these days are cheap Chinese imports. The quality of BS1363 plugs and sockets is no longer what it was. Even MK now have some of their stuff made in China; the sockets are definitely value engineered, and the build standard is clearly inferior to what it was in the '60s and '70s.
Right, bit of an update. Put my system on this morning and that beautiful "hear through" quality seemed to be missing. I'm concvinced there's a lot of hash (RFI?) on our mains during the day which cleans up at night. I did repeat the fuse/wire swap and there is still a noticeable improvement with the fuse bypassed. The sound is "cleaner" for sure.
Barry, I have to agree with your argument regarding lowering mains impedance, it doesn't add up. Actually it was a 13 amp fuse so your argument is even stronger. The point you just made about plug quality is very valid. The plug I was playing with is a real piece of crap with really poor quality fuse grips. Never bothered me as I wasn't a believer in mains tweaking. I reckoned 240V would get through relatively anything unscathed. However opening an MK tough plug on one of my other leads showed what a good quality item should feel like - the fuse was SOLID.
After checking there was a fuse fitted to the IEC inlet of both my amp and CD player I have bypassed the fuses in their plugs too so have gone the full monty and bypassed all the plug fuses and the sound is definitely more clean, clear and defined. The extra definition in the bass is very noticeable and appreciated with the James Jamerson stuff I'm listening to at present. His old flat wound Fender has a new found texture.
Will leave things like this for a week or two and then go back to having the fuses in circuit and see what's what.
I think plug fuses are not made of glass because they have to interrupt higher fault currents than those inside equipment hence the ceramic body to withstand the force without shattering.
Most 13A plugs these days are cheap Chinese imports. The quality of BS1363 plugs and sockets is no longer what it was. Even MK now have some of their stuff made in China; the sockets are definitely value engineered, and the build standard is clearly inferior to what it was in the '60s and '70s.
Indeed, they're shit... The only 13A plugs I'd put near my system these days (and there are only two, plugged into my TD digital noise filter) are these, which feature solid-copper pins, plated with Rhodium. Pitting is a non-issue:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/jxAqjW.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pojxAqjWj)
Very high-engineering quality, and the best plug I've found that doesn't 'sound' like a plug (i.e. the closest to hard-wiring, simply because it acts LEAST like a bottleneck)... Only thing is they're £105 a pop!
Marco.
Yes, plug fuses (to BS1362) must have ceramic bodies for reasons you state. Even some 20mm long fuses use a sand-filled glass body.
Incidently 20mm x 5mm dia fuses ought to satisfy the relevant BS specification: BS EN 60127/2 for quick-acting types, and BS EN 60127/3 for time delay types.
walpurgis
15-01-2017, 20:31
I get mine from 'Poundland' ;).
Ha - you're such a tightwad! :eyebrows:
You know what I'm like, though... ;)
Marco.
Yikes, bit steep at a hundred odd quid but worth it I suppose.
My system has never created images like this before. Every instrument is clearly standing in its own space, chuffed :D
Even some 20mm long fuses use a sand-filled glass body.
Yes, they're the HBC variants -high breaking capacity.
Bit like myself on the wind front :D
Indeed, they're shit... The only 13A plugs I'd put near my system these days (and there are only two, into my TD digital noise filter) are these, which feature solid-copper pins, plated with Rhodium. Pitting is a non-issue:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/jxAqjW.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pojxAqjWj)
Very high-engineering quality, and the best plug I've found that doesn't 'sound' like a plug (i.e. the closest to hard-wiring, simply because it acts LEAST like a bottleneck)... Only thing is they're £105 a pop!
Marco.
What make of fuse do you use in them?
Yes, they're the HBC variants -high breaking capacity.
Bit like myself on the wind front :D
Hi John,
Yup, they're very good. You have to remember how much my system cost to put together, so £105 isn't really a hill of beans...
I totally 'get' where you're coming from with your current experiment, and the benefits you've heard. It's precisely why I do the same myself - and have done for years! ;)
Marco.
What make of fuse do you use in them?
Hi Barry,
Currently, those from Hi-Fi Tuning: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-FI-Tuning-13A-UK-Mains-Fuse-/391482863931?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
However, based on Gary's enthusiasm for the product, I'm considering trying some SRs. This is quite a leap for me now, as I'd considered my days of tweaking over!
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I'm already hatching a plan to get rid of those pesky fuses by using a 10A MCB and separate circuit from the consumer unit with a star joint to two leads, one to the CD player and one to the amp. That should improve the mains supply further :D
Few other jobs to see to first though
I still think the cheap fuses are creating noise in system as current flows across it exclusively. The wire being added is probably taking most of it away
so if i remove all the fuses in my system and replace with copper wire am i,
A. going to hear a big sonic difference
or
B going to get electrocuted ?
i dont mind B if its after A!
electrocuted ;) if your not careful. unplug everything.. leave overnight just in case then change, if you must.. just in case a cap gives you a belt
I should point out that AoS does not recommend overriding the fuses in any plug or electrical equipment, this could lead to a catastrophic failure of the equipment and start a fire. The people you read about here are trained professionals. Or drunk. Or both. Please do not try this at home.
exactly... do at own risk, and I personally recommend not doing it; not that thats gonna stop anyone. If folk must then be double careful as mains electricity often doesnt give you a second chance
Yes, in all seriousness don't mess with this stuff if you are not sure what you're doing. There are personal and equipment risks if you get it wrong. :)
Jamie,
as I said across the Pond not recommended.
Clean your fuses up though, you might get a nice surprise. :)
Hi Barry,
Currently, those from Hi-Fi Tuning: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hi-FI-Tuning-13A-UK-Mains-Fuse-/391482863931?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
However, based on Gary's enthusiasm for the product, I'm considering trying some SRs. This is quite a leap for me now, as I'd considered my days of tweaking over!
Marco.
That is the same as the one given out at the Whittlebury show for free. So they cost £35 apiece? - just as well then that I found no difference when I tried it out in my system! ;)
I'm not sure if one should take any notice of the symbol printed on the body of the fuse, but the depiction of the fuse as a diode in parallel with a capacitor did not inspire me!
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kGgAAOSwepJXX~-w/s-l400.jpg
Lol - are you sure they weren't these ones, from AMR, as that's one of the rooms we were in, listening to their equipment (they also make CDPs and amps, etc), and the rep was handing them out:
http://www.analogueseduction.net/amr-fuses.html
I agree that the AMRs were pretty ineffectual. I didn't hear much difference with those either. Fair enough if you don't rate the design of the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, or couldn't hear any difference if you tried one of those, too.
I certainly could, although the effect (improvement) was subtle - no 'night and day' transformations were experienced in that instance, but one of those 'icings on the cake' things, which was worthwhile. Anyway, feel free to give me yours if you don't want it (unless it's an AMR) ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-01-2017, 12:14
Lol - are you sure they weren't these ones, from AMR, as that's one of the rooms we were in, listening to their equipment (they also make CDPs and amps, etc), and the rep was handing them out:
http://www.analogueseduction.net/amr-fuses.html
I agree that the AMRs were pretty ineffectual. I didn't hear much difference with those either. Fair enough if you don't rate the design of the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, or couldn't hear any difference if you tried one of those, too.
I certainly could, although the effect (improvement) was subtle - no 'night and day' transformations were experienced in that instance, but one of those 'icings on the cake' things, which was worthwhile. Anyway, feel free to give me yours if you don't want it (unless it's an AMR) ;)
Marco.
It was AMR ones. I was given a few to do a write up but life circumstances got in the way and the cold hard reality of swapping fuses in and out of mains plugs killed me doing it.
No it was definitely a 'Hi Fi Tuning' fuse; I recognise the printing on the cartridge body. I mentioned the fuses to Mark Dolbear of the Highend Workshop a few years ago and he let me have a copy of a lab report commisioned by Hi Fi Tuning which was a set of comparative meaasurements of the fuse, along with other 'audiophile' types as well as standard ones.
I'll see if I can find it - I'm sure Jez would find it interesting! ;) (IMO it is a very poor report with no statistical analysis and not surprisingly heavily biased towards the Hi Fi Tuning product.)
The Black Adder
16-01-2017, 12:55
If anyone has any of the plug tuning fuses knocking around not doing anything, I'd like to try them. :)
Ah ok, no worries. I think you'd also have been given some AMR ones at the show, as a freebie. I certainly was, so you might have some knocking about your spares box. They come in little black pouches.
Regardless of the measurements/report, or whatever, I'm happy that the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses are doing a good job in my system :)
Marco.
I'll probably come in for a lot of stick for this, but here goes anyway:
Fuses exist to protect the CABLE and NOT your kit. In the event of a major fault, they limit the number of Ampere's that can be drawn through your cable which might otherwise over-load it and cause a fire, by causing the fuse to blow instead. That's why it is NEVER recommended that you remove any fuses from any cable connected to the mains, and should there be a fire and you have tampered with them, I'm sure that most insurance companies would want to know why and would probably refuse to pay out should your house burn down (yes, they do check the fire officer's reports on these things and yes, a tampered with or bypassed fuse can be identified);
To the big elephant in the room, which has been quietly sat in the corner with no one noticing: The fuses mentioned in the last link to the Ebay "tuning fuses" contains claims which are barely credible, such as "...these cheap, glass-body fuses are a "weak link" in your signal path...". Mains fuses ARE NOT IN THE SIGNAL PATH. Claims that they somehow magically "filter" the mains are frankly incredible. Where is this filtering circuit? Is it in miniature within the fuse? What is this "mains resonance" they speak of? (granted that some circuits can be electrically resonant but that points more often to a specific set of electrical issues which can be described within a signal circuit. The use of the term here serves only to reinforce the technical pseudo-science babble nonsense being spouted....oh....imho ;)). The cheap glass bodied fuses are cheap for a reason. They cost peanuts to produce and do a perfectly good job. They're the one's protecting your kit by the way, not the ones in the mains plug. They are also designed around a set down set of criteria and all do essentially the same job, whether slow blow (time dependant) or quick blow. the "T" fuses are designed to sustain a high inrush current for a prescribed time after which they'll blow. They will eventually pop anyway, so it's sensible to replace them every year or two;
In relation to "T" fuses, perhaps some of the perceived issues are around comparisons of a "worn" T fuse which may have waisted a little through heat over a number of cycles, so by changing old ones for nice shiny new ones for about 40p each or whatever, you'll probably get the exact same result as putting a shiny new "tuning" fuse in and paying £30 upwards for the privilege. Out of interest, has anyone tried this comparison?
How can a fuse cure "mains noise" when this is actually the job of your connected kit's power supply, which, by the way, has been engineered (in most cases) by competent and capable audio engineers to filter things like spurious mains noise and RFI out from the incoming supply?
Here, yet again, we see the mythical qualities of Silver being used. Can anyone answer just why silver makes a better fuse than copper, or pig iron, or steel, or tungston, or.....Surely the only qualities that matter are that if sustaining an overcurrent for a prescribed period of time, the fuse must melt and "blow". Yes, there is a clearly prescribed period defined in legislation.
I'd like to say that whilst I do have a very open mind when it comes to hifi in general, I draw the line at mains fuses.
I am not decrying the experiences of others, as suggestion is a powerful (and actually quite an understood) phenomena, so if people feel better about being relieved of their hard earned for some of these trinkets, then so be it, and enjoy. Most cases, the perceived improvements could probably be obtained by cleaning your plug/fuse contacts and re-assembling, or by renewing your "T" fuses every so often as, just like light bulbs, they have a finite lifespan.
Spectral Morn
16-01-2017, 13:18
I'll probably come in for a lot of stick for this, but here goes anyway:
Fuses exist to protect the CABLE and NOT your kit. In the event of a major fault, they limit the number of Ampere's that can be drawn through your cable which might otherwise over-load it and cause a fire, by causing the fuse to blow instead. That's why it is NEVER recommended that you remove any fuses from any cable connected to the mains, and should there be a fire and you have tampered with them, I'm sure that most insurance companies would want to know why and would probably refuse to pay out should your house burn down (yes, they do check the fire officer's reports on these things and yes, a tampered with or bypassed fuse can be identified);
To the big elephant in the room, which has been quietly sat in the corner with no one noticing: The fuses mentioned in the last link to the Ebay "tuning fuses" contains claims which are barely credible, such as "...these cheap, glass-body fuses are a "weak link" in your signal path...". Mains fuses ARE NOT IN THE SIGNAL PATH. Claims that they somehow magically "filter" the mains are frankly incredible. Where is this filtering circuit? Is in in miniature within the fuse? What is this "mains resonance" they speak of? (granted that some circuits can be electrically resonant but that points more often to a specific set of electrical issues which can be described within a circuit. The use of the term here serves only to reinforce the technichal psuedo-science babble nonsense being spouted....oh....imho ;))
How can a fuse cure "mains noise" when this is actually the job of your connected kit's power supply, which, by the way, has been engineered (in most cases) by competent and capable audio engineers to filter things like spurious mains noise and RFI out from the incoming supply?
Here, yet again, we see the mythical qualities of Silver being used. Can anyone answer just why silver makes a better fuse than copper, or pig iron, or steel, or tungston, or.....Surely the only qualities that matter are that if sustaining an overcurrent for a prescribed period of time, the fuse must melt and "blow". Yes, there is a clearly prescribed period defined in legislation.
I'd like to say that whilst I do have a very open mind when it comes to hifi in general, I draw the line at mains fuses.
I am not decrying the experiences of others, as suggestion is a powerful (and actually quite an understood) phenomena, so if people feel better about being relieved of their hard earned for some of these trinkets, then so be it, and enjoy. Most cases, the perceived improvements could probably be obtained by cleaning your plug/fuse contacts and re-assembling, no?
See there you go, placebo again :(. If folks approach this and are sceptical, hostile even then their expectation bias is to the negative not the positive. What about when they hear improvements. Folks using words like placebo, etc gets me rather irritated. They were not in the room and didn't hear what folks like Gary have, so how dare they ridicule folks genuine listening experiences.
Most cases, the perceived improvements could probably be obtained by cleaning your plug/fuse contacts and re-assembling, or by renewing your "T" fuses every so often as, just like light bulbs, they have a finite lifespan.
That's already been done by most of us, Paul, and improvements were heard, as one would expect. However, some of the 'audiophile fuses' we've tried take things a step further again, sonically. All fair points you've made above though, and it's always good for someone to add some balance, critically, but in a polite and constructive way.
When I tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses some years ago, I tested them thoroughly, over a period of weeks of using them, then taking them out and going back to standard fuses (returning to a known reference, IME, always reveals when something 'works' or not) - and every time I returned to using standard fuses, the sound quality of my system took a dip, simply in terms of a *slight* graininess/opaque quality being superimposed over proceedings, which was absent with the HFT fuses in circuit.
I would stress that the improvement was of the subtle variety, and certainly not 'earth shattering', but once you'd heard it, it was significant enough that you wouldn't want to go back to how things were before.
After the results of testing the HFT fuses were (for me) conclusive, it was enough to make me buy some more to use elsewhere, and I've been using them happily in my system ever since. Whilst I appreciate that the science behind these fuses is dodgy, and wouldn't attempt to make any claims to the contrary, in the final analysis I'm happy to trust my ears, after satisfying my own judgment criteria, as indeed I do with everything else I choose to use in my system :cool:
Marco.
See there you go, placebo again :(. If folks approach this and are sceptical, hostile even then their expectation bias is to the negative not the positive. What about when they hear improvements. Folks using words like placebo, etc gets me rather irritated. They were not in the room and didn't hear what folks like Gary have, so how dare they ridicule folks genuine listening experiences.
I believe that I have answered that, and have been anything but hostile Neil. Get irritated if you wish, but one opinion is just as valid as another and I haven't decried anyone's listening experiences at all ;) it is just this type of arrogant response that gets me irritated, when there can be no tolerance at all of a rational and enquiring approach based on something more than a belief system. With that, I'll bow out of this one straight away. (ok, after addressing Marco's response) You may wish to re-read what my edited posting actually says rather than jumping in with such hostility so quickly. It's only hifi for goodness sake! There's more important things going on in the world at present to get angry over.
That's already been done by most of us, Paul, and improvements were heard, as one would expect. However, some of the 'audiophile fuses' we've tried take things a step further sonically.
All fair point you've made above, and it's always good for someone to add some balance, in a polite and constructive way.
However, when I tried the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses some years ago, I tested them thoroughly, over a period of weeks, using them, then taking them out and going back standard fuses (returning to a known reference, IME, always reveals when something 'works' or not - and every time I returned to using standard fuses, the sound quality of my system took a dip, simply in terms of a *slight* graininess/opaque quality being superimposed over proceedings, which was absent with the HFT fuses in circuit.
After the results of said testing were (for me) conclusive, it was enough to make me buy some more to use elsewhere, and I've been using them happily in my system ever since. Whilst I appreciate that the science behind these fuses is dodgy, and wouldn't attempt to make any claims to the contrary, in the final analysis I'm happy to trust my ears, after satisfying my own judgment criteria, as indeed I do with everything else I choose to use in my system :cool:
Marco.
That's fair enough Marco. As I said in my first post, I am not decrying the experiences of others, just trying to approach with a more enquiring mind than some would allow.
I have to say Marco, and this is definitely not aimed at you or what you've posted, but it is noticed by a few of us and a little objectionable how recently, if anyone from the engineering community who has a stake in actually designing or making things posts, even in a polite way, they are instantly slapped down by some with unpleasantness as if we are to be kept in a box under control.
This isn't George Orwell's 1984, so if such people would like to take their aggression out somewhere else, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I can assure you, there will be some trades people on here walking away or just not contributing any more. Andrew, Jez, and myself have come in for more than enough stick lately, but between us, we do have a smattering of knowledge. It seems that when we try and share any of it, or offer our own opinions based on experience, someone stamps on it rather quickly.
I do try being empathetic and polite with posts, but I'm wired up to approach things differently than many on AoS. Now we are all tying to arrive that the same place, but often our paths are blocked so a different route is called for. All I (and the others) try to do is to offer that other route, if that makes sense?
jandl100
16-01-2017, 13:43
Whoosh.
My £90 SR Black fuse has arrived.
Blimey, the improvement is not subtle.
Putting the old fuse back and the improvements in image focus and presence, resolution, and the sheer improved organisation of the soundstage went away.
SR Black back in - and improvements back as well.
This is one refund option that will most certainly not be taken up!
It's supposed to 'run in', well maybe, I'll see.
I've placed the fuse in the wall plug that feeds a mains block that feeds the whole system.
Where next for my next one .... ?
Thanks Gaz, good spot. :thumbsup:
Firebottle
16-01-2017, 13:44
This ^^^^^
Good post Paul.
Spectral Morn
16-01-2017, 13:46
I believe that I have answered that, and have been anything but hostile Neil. Get irritated if you wish, but one opinion is just as valid as another and I haven't decried anyone's listening experiences at all ;) it is just this type of arrogant response that gets me irritated, when there can be no tolerance at all of a rational and enquiring approach based on something more than a belief system. With that, I'll bow out of this one straight away. (ok, after addressing Marco's response) You may wish to re-read what my edited posting actually says rather than jumping in with such hostility so quickly. It's only hifi for goodness sake! There's more important things going on in the world at present to get angry over.
Sorry Paul but I have a zero tolerance attitude towards anyone using placebo, which you did, though you didn't use that word. I wasn't rude or hostile I simply said it irritated me, which it does. Your post was fine until you wrote that bit, you are entitled to express your opinion and I am entitled to say I dislike intensely people writing about placebo, as it questions their listening ability etc.
I recognise designers and measurements but too many dismiss valid listening experiences and sweep them under the placebo catch all, basically that we are self deluded and what is heard is dismissed as being such. I really don't like that.
That's fair enough Marco. As I said in my first post, I am not decrying the experiences of others, just trying to approach with a more enquiring mind than some would allow.
I have to say Marco, and this is definitely not aimed at you or what you've posted, but it is noticed by a few of us and a little objectionable how recently, if anyone from the engineering community who has a stake in actually designing or making things posts, even in a polite way, they are instantly slapped down by some with unpleasantness as if we are to be kept in a box under control.
This isn't George Orwell's 1984, so if such people would like to take their aggression out somewhere else, that would be appreciated. Otherwise, I can assure you, there will be some trades people on here walking away or just not contributing any more. Andrew, Jez, and myself have come in for more than enough stick lately, but between us, we do have a smattering of knowledge. It seems that when we try and share any of it, or offer our own opinions based on experience, someone stamps on it rather quickly.
I do try being empathetic and polite with posts, but I'm wired up to approach things differently than many on AoS. Now we are all tying to arrive that the same place, but often our paths are blocked so a different route is called for. All I (and the others) try to do is to offer that other route, if that makes sense?
That's fine, Paul, and I appreciate where you're coming from.
Andrew and I had a perfectly amicable exchange of views earlier, and in some areas we simply agreed to disagree, which is fine. He didn't try and press the point or make out that I was automatically 'imagining' what I was hearing, or told me in no uncertain terms that I was 'wrong', which with respect to Jez, is something he does (or rather did do) that others and I find deeply objectionable. And he accepts that now.
As long as no-one arrogantly or dogmatically tries to TELL me what I'm hearing or not (as that sends me to the ceiling and back), as they weren't there when I heard it, I'm happy to entertain any POV contrary to my own stance on this matter. At the end of the day, even if we disagree, it's about having the interpersonal skills and manners to respect someone else's right to think differently from you - and that applies to both the scientific and non-scientific fraternity.
Heaven help us if we ever get to the stage here, as on some forums, that folks are too scared to open their mouths, and relate their (valid) audio experiences, for fear of being rudely shouted down by some blinkered idiot, whose only desire is to defend his 'world view' and 'win' arguments, no matter how many folk (on his own site and elsewhere) he upsets and makes enemies of in the process, making a mockery of the supposed subjectivist ethos of his site in the process, and who's too stupid to see that by doing so he's scaring folks off and killing his own forum!
Not to worry, that suits is all here fine, as we'll only profit from his blinkered belligerence ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-01-2017, 13:51
Yep good post Paul.
Interesting Jerry has the same findings as Gaz.
This ^^^^^
Good post Paul.
Oi daftee - have you carried out that fuse test yet I asked you to do? I'm genuinely interested in the results! :)
Marco.
Whoosh.
My £90 SR Black fuse has arrived.
Blimey, the improvement is not subtle.
Putting the old fuse back and the improvements in image focus and presence, resolution, and the sheer improved organisation of the soundstage went away.
SR Black back in - and improvements back as well.
This is one refund option that will most certainly not be taken up!
It's supposed to 'run in', well maybe, I'll see.
I've placed the fuse in the wall plug that feeds a mains block that feeds the whole system.
Where next for my next one .... ?
Thanks Gaz, good spot. :thumbsup:
How many other fus s do you need?
Are fancy mains cables involved?
jandl100
16-01-2017, 14:00
How many other fus s do you need?
Are fancy mains cables involved?
Fancy mains cables? yes. The cable / plug concerned is a Missing Link Cryo Reference.
How many other fuses? - well, I am now looking askance at cables feeding pre & power amps and DAC. Those being the main components in my system.
Firebottle
16-01-2017, 14:07
OK daftee, keep your keks on. I have just been doing the test whilst you were posting the last couple.
My CD player, of quite a number of years use, has never had the fuse changed. It is a T1A.
On opening the little slide fuse carrier I found that the manufacturer had included a spare in the second 'chamber'.
So I have two fuses of the same vintage, one having been used and the other not.
Resistance test results:
USED 0.138 ohms
NEW 0.132 ohms
I then got all the new/unused T1A fuse out of my spares draw and tested them:
0.086
0.132
0.089
0.116
0.134
0.138
0.089
0.140
0.158
0.093
0.147
0.092
0.112
So in this instance I would say no degradation from use. The CD player is a Naim with quite a large toroidal mains transformer in it.
:)
Okay dokes, I was just curious on what the numbers would be. Thanks for taking the time to do that :thumbsup:
Marco.
Sovereign
16-01-2017, 14:30
Really interesting findings Jerry, I know your not into DIY as such but would you be willing to solder a copper bar in place where the fancy fuse is? I understand Garry not wanting to do this for fear of trashing his equipment, but as your new fuse is only in a wall plug which isn't actually directly attached to your equipment there is no risk as such? I would do it myself but I don't have any fuses in my mains .
Yep good post Paul.
Interesting Jerry has the same findings as Gaz.
Ali,
There's a fancy fuse in that MCRU Linear PSU you bought from me, or there should be, it was sold to me supposedly with one already fitted although I never checked.
Might be an idea for you to try it in something else, see if it does anything for your system.
Fancy mains cables? yes. The cable / plug concerned is a Missing Link Cryo Reference.
How many other fuses? - well, I am now looking askance at cables feeding pre & power amps and DAC. Those being the main components in my system.
How about the internal fuses?
This is going to cost a packet....
Whoosh.
My £90 SR Black fuse has arrived.
Blimey, the improvement is not subtle.
Putting the old fuse back and the improvements in image focus and presence, resolution, and the sheer improved organisation of the soundstage went away.
SR Black back in - and improvements back as well.
This is one refund option that will most certainly not be taken up!
It's supposed to 'run in', well maybe, I'll see.
I've placed the fuse in the wall plug that feeds a mains block that feeds the whole system.
Where next for my next one .... ?
Thanks Gaz, good spot. :thumbsup:
Good stuff Jerry, glad it works for you.
Hear similar across the board improvement here too, moreso the one my Preamp, which is interesting.
I've only fitted internal case fuses to my Transporter and my Densen Pre, only the one external 13A plug used nowadays.
Good to know it works in that application too, maybe one for the future.
Always internal case fuses Jerry if you take a punt?
Be interested in what you think once they have a few days on them. :)
How about the internal fuses?
This is going to cost a packet....
Thats what I've done.
Only 4 more to go!! :mental::eek:
OK daftee, keep your keks on. I have just been doing the test whilst you were posting the last couple.
My CD player, of quite a number of years use, has never had the fuse changed. It is a T1A.
On opening the little slide fuse carrier I found that the manufacturer had included a spare in the second 'chamber'.
So I have two fuses of the same vintage, one having been used and the other not.
Resistance test results:
USED 0.138 ohms
NEW 0.132 ohms
I then got all the new/unused T1A fuse out of my spares draw and tested them:
0.086
0.132
0.089
0.116
0.134
0.138
0.089
0.140
0.158
0.093
0.147
0.092
0.112
So in this instance I would say no degradation from use. The CD player is a Naim with quite a large toroidal mains transformer in it.
:)
Does it sound better with a lower resistance fuse fitted?
Well, I'm not going to arse around with fuses, but the problem with the "I took out the fancy fuse and replaced it with the bog-standard one and it sounded shite" approach is that you know which fuse is which. The only way of knowing if you're actually hearing a difference is for someone else to do the swapping without telling you which fuse they're putting in.
Well, I'm not going to arse around with fuses, but the problem with the "I took out the fancy fuse and replaced it with the bog-standard one and it sounded shite" approach is that you know which fuse is which. The only way of knowing if you're actually hearing a difference is for someone else to do the swapping without telling you which fuse they're putting in.
All very well but why is this test required if the difference is not subtle? Should we do this for everything? Do I need to do a blind test between my JM Lab speakers and my Akai speakers just in case they actually sound identical and I am just imagining a difference? Should I blind test my Technics deck against my plasticky old Phillips effort? Where do we draw the line?
Simple rule to negate that hassle: If you make the change and are sat there thinking 'hmm, is that better?' whilst listening intently, then it is no better. When it is better you don't ponder about it or have to listen out for it.
All very well but why is this test required if the difference is not subtle? Should we do this for everything? Do I need to do a blind test between my JM Lab speakers and my Akai speakers just in case they actually sound identical and I am just imagining a difference? Should I blind test my Technics deck against my plasticky old Phillips effort? Where do we draw the line?
Simple rule to negate that hassle: If you make the change and are sat there thinking 'hmm, is that better?' whilst listening intently, then it is no better. When it is better you don't ponder about it or have to listen out for it.
It's just that people say 'I know the difference was real because I swapped out new for old and everything was ruined', as if that 'proved' anything. It doesn't. (I should add that I don't do any of this swapping about malarkey myself being a lazy-arsed slacker).
jandl100
16-01-2017, 15:06
Well, I'm not at all keen on flushing £90 down the pan for no good reason if it would just cost me a few £ in postage to return for a refund.
I was quite keen to get the "no difference" or "made it worse " result.
Sadly, it was not to be.
Internal fuses ... hmm. Trouble is the fuse type is often specific to the kit, and for a box swapper like me that doesn't make a lot of sense.
And no, James/sov, no soldering of copper bars for me.
It's just that people say 'I know the difference was real because I swapped out new for old and everything was ruined', as if that 'proved' anything. It doesn't. (I should add that I don't do any of this swapping about malarkey myself being a lazy-arsed slacker).
It proves it for them, even if they didn't need convincing to begin with. There is far too much bollocks talked about expectation bias and placebo in hi-fi. It is the lazy man's answer to everything. I'm not saying they do not apply at all but their influence is way overstated.
It's just that people say 'I know the difference was real because I swapped out new for old and everything was ruined', as if that 'proved' anything. It doesn't. (I should add that I don't do any of this swapping about malarkey myself being a lazy-arsed slacker).
Used to drink with a guy that liked a splash of lemonade in his lager.not much. If they got mixed i could try one then other then back to the first and get it right every time. Or am i just being gullible as the one i picked had more in it ;)
It proves it for them, even if they didn't need convincing to begin with. There is far too much bollocks talked about expectation bias and placebo in hi-fi. It is the lazy man's answer to everything. I'm not saying they do not apply at all but their influence is way overstated.
And if they just want it 'proved for them', no probs. But if someone with a great deal of technical knowledge/experience of building stuff says 'that can't work, it's just not possible' then a bit of evidence by way of blind-testing goes a lot further than 'I heard it - are you calling me a liar' as a response in terms of moving the discussion along.
Ali Tait
16-01-2017, 15:22
Ali,
There's a fancy fuse in that MCRU Linear PSU you bought from me, or there should be, it was sold to me supposedly with one already fitted although I never checked.
Might be an idea for you to try it in something else, see if it does anything for your system.
Ok cheers, will give it a try at the weekend if I get time.
And if they just want it 'proved for them', no probs. But if someone with a great deal of technical knowledge/experience of building stuff says 'that can't work, it's just not possible' then a bit of evidence by way of blind-testing goes a lot further than 'I heard it - are you calling me a liar' as a response in terms of moving the discussion along.
No it doesn't, because if they can identify a difference in the test then the test methodology is called into question. You read PFM, you know how it goes.
That's why this is a subjectivist forum. So we don't have to go there. On the other hand I think that if someone posts that a ninety quid fuse gives a good uplift in sound quality then it is fair that questions are asked, if only because some people with 'a great deal of technical knowledge/experience of building stuff' says it can't be happening. Asking questions is not the same as calling someone a liar or claiming placebo. I'd be happier if the engineers had a listen for themselves and satisfied themselves there was no subjective difference. If they hear there is a difference then who better to look for the reason?
And if they just want it 'proved for them', no probs. But if someone with a great deal of technical knowledge/experience of building stuff says 'that can't work, it's just not possible' then a bit of evidence by way of blind-testing goes a lot further than 'I heard it - are you calling me a liar' as a response in terms of moving the discussion along.
Yes I guess that's fine, if you feel so inclined.
However, as long as no-one is saying what they've heard is FACT, but merely offering their subjective opinion (which is all I've seen here from the 'fuse believers', as it were), then there's no need for proof/evidence of anything, other than someone's word, which you can choose to believe or not - and least of all any expert coming along, psychoanalysing them and writing an essay on the gullibility of man! :doh:
It's that last bit that raises the heckles and is completely unnecessary and unwelcome.
I've said it before here many times, when commenting on what we've done with our hi-fi systems: we're not submitting a formal thesis for critical appraisal or entering a competition in a debating society; we're chatting informally amongst ourselves in a chilled-out and relaxed environment, much as if we were all together chewing the fat over a few beers in a pub. That's the vibe we have here on AoS.
So no-one gets any special Brownie Points for being right or wrong!
Marco.
Asking questions is not the same as calling someone a liar or claiming placebo.
Precisely, it's almost as if they take challenging their 'world view' or not accepting their scientific belief system as 'gospel', worse than someone insulting their mother! I simply *won't* have that here, as it's precisely why AoS was born in the first place: to create a safe haven away from that sort of divisive shit and ill-feeling.
If you enjoy that, and have a penchant for an endless circular argument, there's plenty of it on almost every other forum, so fill your boots.
Marco.
Questions are good, and always welcome.
other stuff...not so much.
Questions are good, and always welcome.
other stuff...not so much.
The problem is, Gary, some folk are so ignorant and divorced from social interaction with normal people, and more interested in winning arguments, scoring points and trying to be smart, that they completely lose sight of the fact that their behaviour spoils it for everyone else :rolleyes:
And that's why the forums these folk run or are members of will never amount to anything worthwhile, much like them.
Also, what gets me is the arrogant and abrasive tone with which they address people, and obviously consider as normal. It just beggars belief, evidenced by the shocking treatment you were given on the midden, simply for relating to them what you'd discovered with a fuse... It doesn't matter how wrong you are about what you said (should that be the case), there is simply no need for such nastiness.
You wonder if they speak to their friends or partners that way, and if so, how they put up with it. I can tell you if anyone spoke to me like that in real life, with such patent rudeness and disrespect, regardless of anything else, they'd get a well deserved slap!!
I was brought up in an environment where people, by default, were treated with kindness and civility, no matter whether you disagreed with them on certain matters or not, and that's how I insist on living my life now. I have zero tolerance for those who, in that respect, appear to live on a different planet.
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-01-2017, 17:24
You can guarantee they would not dare to be so abrasive face to face..
No harm done Marco, water off a ducks back.
Wasn't even going to go back on tbh, but I was invited by a long term member over there (in good humour) to share my opinions on my SR fuse.
No harm done why not I thought.
That same guy...was booted by the Forum owner Saturday night for coming to my defence in giving my opinion when asked for it.
His posts were edited/deleted to suit. Says it all really
I went to the bother of testing something and giving my opinion for Forum owner RE: the fuse.
Not my idea was reluctant but did it as a favour to him.
As a favour (cos he asked nice) as I didnt want to potentially damage my kit was reluctant...but he insisted.
Not so much a thankyou...sheesh. Guess he didn't approve?
I was a liar, a scam, shilling for God knows who, having a breakdown...all different flavours of silly.
Pretty personal no? :)
Despite attempting civilised connersation in the face of that, even my patience has limits.
I'm pretty sure the Gov'ner over there might be a bit less bolshy face to face...
Anyway, moving on, haters gonna hate as they say.
I don't know why you guys waste time caring about what that lot think?
Life is too short.
Sadly it is akin to peeing in the wind....
The Black Adder
16-01-2017, 19:03
So to sum it up then, Gary & Jerry. (You will be making Ice-Cream next :) )
For £90 per fuse... would you say it's definitely worth the outlay? I've tried IC's in the past which cost more and yet never really yielded decent SPPV so this is why I'm picking your brains. :)
And Jerry, will you be ordering more for your other plugs?
I'd be interested to know if the mains fuse in the plugs are the best place to start, it's certainly the easiest.
IMO I must say the picture painted looks solid enough to give at least one a go. I use Mark Grant DSP 2.5 leads which are great, would these be ok to pop in a 13A fuse?
So to sum it up then, Gary & Jerry. (You will be making Ice-Cream next :) )
For £90 per fuse... would you say it's definitely worth the outlay? I've tried IC's in the past which cost more and yet never really yielded decent SPPV so this is why I'm picking your brains. :)
And Jerry, will you be ordering more for your other plugs?
I'd be interested to know if the mains fuse in the plugs are the best place to start, it's certainly the easiest.
IMO I must say the picture painted looks solid enough to give at least one a go. I use Mark Grant DSP 2.5 leads which are great, would these be ok to pop in a 13A fuse?
Definately worth it, I have replaced two internal fuses and as Jerry said...whoosh.
I've squite a lot more and got less improvement...dont think of it as a fuse, it helps! :)
The SRs come in different ratings, just get one the same as what you want to replace Jo.
Assuming 13A in MGs cable?
The Black Adder
16-01-2017, 19:41
Definately worth it, I have replaced two internal fuses and as Jerry said...whoosh.
I've squite a lot more and got less improvement...dont think of it as a fuse, it helps! :)
The SRs come in different ratings, just get one the same as what you want to replace Jo.
Assuming 13A in MGs cable?
Cool, thanks.
:)
Squite?
Pesky autocorrect..
jandl100
16-01-2017, 22:22
So to sum it up then, Gary & Jerry. (You will be making Ice-Cream next :) )
For £90 per fuse... would you say it's definitely worth the outlay? I've tried IC's in the past which cost more and yet never really yielded decent SPPV so this is why I'm picking your brains. :)
And Jerry, will you be ordering more for your other plugs?
I'd be interested to know if the mains fuse in the plugs are the best place to start, it's certainly the easiest.
IMO I must say the picture painted looks solid enough to give at least one a go. I use Mark Grant DSP 2.5 leads which are great, would these be ok to pop in a 13A fuse?
I previously posted my immediate reaction.
I've now had a few hours of play (and so has the fuse) and I am even more enamoured with it than before.
It's quite striking listening to old music faves anew - it really is like a pukka component upgrade.
Stupid money for a fuse, but very good vfm for a system upgrade!
So yes, I will be getting more.
But not straight away - I'll enjoy the current fuse upgrade (pun intended ;)) for a while, then get another when I fancy squeezing a bit more music out of the system.
Beobloke
16-01-2017, 23:41
Chaps, mention was made earlier in the thread about replacing a fuse with a piece of copper bar. If this wasn't said in jest (and I sincerely hope it was), may I implore you all not to go down this route? Whether you think different fuses make a difference or not, the fact is they are there for a reason. To bypass them in this manner is foolish at best and downright dangerous at worst.
walpurgis
16-01-2017, 23:45
Glad somebody said that! :thumbsup:
Chaps, mention was made earlier in the thread about replacing a fuse with a piece of copper bar. If this wasn't said in jest (and I sincerely hope it was), may I implore you all not to go down this route? Whether you think different fuses make a difference or not, the fact is they are there for a reason. To bypass them in this manner is foolish at best and downright dangerous at worst.
I was stoopid enough to be cajoled into trying it (in the name of science) against my better judgement for a couple of tracks to compare...and was fortunate enough not to blow anything.
But yeah...extremely stupid.
jandl100
17-01-2017, 06:44
Chaps, mention was made earlier in the thread about replacing a fuse with a piece of copper bar. If this wasn't said in jest (and I sincerely hope it was), may I implore you all not to go down this route? Whether you think different fuses make a difference or not, the fact is they are there for a reason. To bypass them in this manner is foolish at best and downright dangerous at worst.
Yep +1
I gave a firm refusal to that request.
Interestingly, on another hifi forum the rule used to be (and possibly still is) a zero tolerance permanent ban for such postings.
It's only hifi - that extra 5% sound quality is not worth you and your family and possibly neighbours and fire fighters dying for. ;)
+1 (again)
At the time I encouraged that it was 'ok' to replace fuse with copper bar as I wasn't soldering anything in, what I was doing was easily reversable.
My choice though at the end of the day.
In hindsight though...:doh:
PUBLIC SERVICE / SAFETY BROADCAST
Some sagely wisdom from someone I trusted with electrical advice on my own kit..
What makes it worse, was asked to run my kit without a fuse with no concern for my kit blowing up, but as a "test" to find out re: the SR fuse if I was a liar, shilling for God knows who..or deluded.
Speaking about my specifc piece of kit:
Even if there is no protection, no CU trip, no fuse, then the coil winding of the transformer becomes the fuse and it would open circuit very quickly, but would get very hot in the process but not enough to flame or damage anything just some smell and maybe a little smoke looking at the transformer spec. It would have to be replaced anyway so no difference.
Sure,
no bother I'll do that, dont mind a little smoke here and there!
And I'll buy my used car somewhere else thanks.
:mental:
farflungstar
17-01-2017, 09:42
In Spain there are NO fuses in plugs and all my gear is wired direct to separate spurs. Most appliances here aren't even earthed - though all of mine are.
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
RothwellAudio
17-01-2017, 09:53
I was stoopid enough to be cajoled into trying it (in the name of science) against my better judgement for a couple of tracks to compare...and was fortunate enough not to blow anything.
But yeah...extremely stupid.
Not really stupid, just a calculated risk. Ok, more of an estimated risk, but I'd estimate the risk at 1000 - 1. If a piece of kit has been working fine for years, there's no reason for it to suddenly develop a fault in the five minutes after a fuse swap.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that it's safe to leave the fuse bypassed long term, but it's a low risk experiment for five minutes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm advocating that it's safe to leave the fuse bypassed long term, but it's a low risk experiment for five minutes.
Indeed, and whilst the warnings are 100% justified (and welcome), one wonders, statistically, how many fires every year are caused by hi-fis, as opposed to, say, Christmas tree lights, washing machines, chip pans, cigarettes, etc...? ;)
I suppose that everyone's risk assessment is calculated differently, and of course if in doubt, play it safe :)
Marco.
Felt it was an acceptable risk at the time, but in hindsight not so much.
Indeed, and whilst the warnings are 100% justified (and welcome), one wonders, statistically, how many fires every year are caused by hi-fis, as opposed to, say, Christmas tree lights, washing machines, chip pans, cigarettes, etc...? ;)
I suppose that everyone's risk assessment is calculated differently, and of course if in doubt, play it safe :)
Marco.
Fair point, not really heard of any hifi kit going on or causing a fire.
Not really stupid, just a calculated risk. Ok, more of an estimated risk, but I'd estimate the risk at 1000 - 1. If a piece of kit has been working fine for years, there's no reason for it to suddenly develop a fault in the five minutes after a fuse swap.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that it's safe to leave the fuse bypassed long term, but it's a low risk experiment for five minutes.
Risk would have been a lot less than that tbh. Long term, would be asking for trouble. There has to be something give in the event of a short for instance or you will get flames eventually as things heat up . Its probably true that our electrical codes are somewhat over protective, but there are good reasons why they are. I prefer the safety fuse to a potential of some sightly better sounding stereo. If however its done as a short term observed test by someone who knows what he is doing and has taken precautions then the risks would be acceptable.
I understand why folk do it though as like many things in life, forbidden fruits taste best
What makes it worse, was asked to run my kit without a fuse with no concern for my kit blowing up, but as a "test" to find out re: the SR fuse if I was a liar, shilling for God knows who..or deluded.
Standard lack of concern from the man in question, who's own equipment contains no fuses or safety protection circuitry whatsoever, the design of which he ridiculously tries to justify. The whole "shilling" thing is a joke, and part of the sufferer's deluded mental condition. He has an inexplicable mania for "shilling"! :mental:
There is/was no shilling or "scam" on your part... You were simply tempted to try an 'audiophile fuse', entirely of your own accord, and when you did, and found it improved the performance of your hi-fi system, proceeded to tell others, which is normal and perfectly natural practice on an enthusiast-orientated audio forum, such as this, in case they might be interested in doing the same.
You were then subjected to a tirade of abuse, and treated disgracefully by the forum owner and his arse-lickers, simply because part of what you were reporting didn't fit with their world view or 'belief system', and most importantly, because they consider ridiculing people that they don't like or agree with as 'entertainment'. How sad. But then when you don't have much of a life, I guess you have to get your 'kicks' when you can.... :rolleyes:
The proof that there is/was no "shilling" will become patently obvious when discussion of this particular tweak runs its course and dies a natural death, which will happen sooner rather than later... As indeed is the case with 95% of such tweaks, with probably no more than half a dozen people in total having been tempted to buy one of the fuses in question [hardly the basis of successful shill or scam], leaving the accuser of such looking once again like a deluded and demented tit!
Marco.
Ali Tait
17-01-2017, 10:42
Fair point, not really heard of any hifi kit going on or causing a fire.
You mean apart from a certain amp setting a member of this forums' speakers on fire..
Ha - best not go there! :eyebrows:
The other thing that the man doesn't seem to get, indeed neither him nor his arse-licking illiterate solicitor, is that what's being objected to/disagreed with is NOT the subject of the 'Gaz fuse fiasco', or the points put forward within that, such as anything about him not believing a fuse can sound better than other fuses, but rather the aggressive tone, complete lack of civility and patronising way in which Gaz was being treated by both of them during the whole episode!!
Why on earth neither of them seem capable of discussing the subject of hi-fi, calmly and civilly, without getting personal with people, is something you'd have to assess with how (seemingly) ignorantly these folk were brought up by their parents! Both badly need taught some manners, and I feel certain that day will come.
The deep-rooted hostility in evidence is certainly the reason why the forum in question is (and always will be) of the 'no-mark' variety, populated in the main by small-minded trolls and keyboard warriors, all too keen to insult and vilify others, from the safety of their keyboards, but who aren't quite so keen to reveal their real names and/or locations... HFS: a 'no-mark' forum for life's angry inadequates and cowardly trolls... :exactly:
Anyway, enough has been said on this now, so let's move on and return to the thread topic.
Marco.
It Cost How Much!?!
17-01-2017, 12:07
So to sum it up then, Gary & Jerry. (You will be making Ice-Cream next :) )
For £90 per fuse... would you say it's definitely worth the outlay? I've tried IC's in the past which cost more and yet never really yielded decent SPPV so this is why I'm picking your brains. :)
And Jerry, will you be ordering more for your other plugs?
I'd be interested to know if the mains fuse in the plugs are the best place to start, it's certainly the easiest.
IMO I must say the picture painted looks solid enough to give at least one a go. I use Mark Grant DSP 2.5 leads which are great, would these be ok to pop in a 13A fuse?
Get some fine emery paper and clean your existing fuse and fuse holder, replace the original fuse back in. Hey presto, an improvement if there is one and it cost £1. So that is £89 less than the foo fuse.
I own a lot of foo stuff, but not foo fuses. As usual, just regularily clean the contacts and that is the same as an "upgrade". Far to sensible, but LPs are quite expensive now and £89 buy's about 4 - 5.
Beobloke
17-01-2017, 12:36
Fair point, not really heard of any hifi kit going on or causing a fire.
A little story for you.
A few years back, I was reviewing a turntable – I set it running in my upstairs listening room to warm up and went downstairs to write the review introduction. About 20 minutes later, the power went off and I found that the RCD for the house sockets that included my listening room had tripped.
I reset it and went upstairs, assuming the review turntable had failed but it was fine and running happily still. However, through the thick fog of smoke in the room I noticed that the power LED on the phono stage I was using at the time was out. I went to remove it from the rack, burning my hand on the lid in the process, which was red hot, and took it downstairs to cool off!
To cut a long story short, one of the rectifier diodes had gone short circuit, overloading the transformer. There was no fusing on the transformer’s outputs so it just sat there cooking itself until its moulded enclosure melted and the windings made contact with the earthed case, tripping the breaker. Had a fuse been fitted on the output side, however, it would have blown.
Even ignoring the potential fire hazard due to the lack of fusing, instead of a repair bill of about £4 for 4 diodes and one fuse, it actually cost me around £50 to fix - 4 diodes, two nearby melted capacitors and one transformer, plus two fuses and fuseholders that I added to the transformer outputs to prevent such future events. Funnily enough, this left the sound completely unaffected! ;)
Worst of all, my flippin’ listening room stank for weeks as well...
Pal of mine had an Audiolab 8000a which he left on all the time despite me saying this was a bad idea. Eventually it did fail while he was out of work. No fire but it did melt all over his tuner, ruining that as well. I leant him a tidy little Marantz amp (with VU meters) as a stop gap.
Clearly that was at least as good as the Audiolab as he still has it more than 20 years later.
The French distributor of these fuses actually recommends fitting the next size up as far as ratings go. This seems a bit daft to me.
Get some fine emery paper and clean your existing fuse and fuse holder, replace the original fuse back in. Hey presto, an improvement if there is one and it cost £1. So that is £89 less than the foo fuse.
I own a lot of foo stuff, but not foo fuses. As usual, just regularily clean the contacts and that is the same as an "upgrade". Far to sensible, but LPs are quite expensive now and £89 buy's about 4 - 5.
Yup, agree with this.
I did something similar in the first instance not knowing what to expect.
I used Aurosol metal polish and industrial degreaser though..hardcore!
The improvement I got made me curious about if I could take it any further.
The French distributor of these fuses actually recommends fitting the next size up as far as ratings go. This seems a bit daft to me.
I noticed a few people on the Audiogon thread had them blow whilst they were 'burning them in'. Which would imply they are not as robust as the fuse they replaced.
I used Aurosol metal polish and industrial degreaser though..hardcore!
I'm sorry to lower the tone, but I keep reading that as Anusol.
Pal of mine had an Audiolab 8000a which he left on all the time despite me saying this was a bad idea. Eventually it did fail while he was out of work. No fire but it did melt all over his tuner, ruining that as well. I leant him a tidy little Marantz amp (with VU meters) as a stop gap.
Clearly that was at least as good as the Audiolab as he still has it more than 20 years later.
I've never had an amp blow up or catch fire (though an old Nytech I'd given away to a friend did go up in smoke when being used at 'party' volumes for several hours) but a laptop did emit foul-smelling smoke when its power supply developed a fault. Fortunately I was in the room when it happened, and chucked it into the garden before it did any real damage.
I'm sorry to lower the tone, but I keep reading that as Anusol.
Thats good stuff too;)
As an engineer from way back i can say ive seen plenty bits of equipment go on fire, although more tvs than anything else. They can go up pretty damn quick too. Had a few things sent in in cardboard boxes too lol. Such things are less likely now of course but do happen.
I'm sorry to lower the tone, but I keep reading that as Anusol.
You rectum, we fix 'em! :)
The French distributor of these fuses actually recommends fitting the next size up as far as ratings go. This seems a bit daft to me.
Bad advice I'd say...
Before buying my second fuse I asked Densen (maker of my Pre) about this specific thing having read those few posts on that thread.
They did say that there wouldn't be any risk of inrush current (which they suggested that as a possibility of fuses blowing) as that is regulated as part of the design and anyway, it's a slow blow fuse so can take more current momentarily.
Fast blow fuses maybe more of a risk, i dunno.
Mass produced fuse may or may not have lesser QC than a more expensive bespoke one?
Would probably have more confidence in one that didn't cost 10p/1000 tbh.
I noticed a few people on the Audiogon thread had them blow whilst they were 'burning them in'. Which would imply they are not as robust as the fuse they replaced.
If I paid £90 for a fuse and it went pop whilst burned by in, I would be a tad annoyed when my bog standard fuse has be n fine.
If I paid £90 for a fuse and it went pop whilst burned by in, I would be a tad annoyed when my bog standard fuse has be n fine.
I'd be feckin' furious!
Crikey, not good!
A little story for you.
A few years back, I was reviewing a turntable – I set it running in my upstairs listening room to warm up and went downstairs to write the review introduction. About 20 minutes later, the power went off and I found that the RCD for the house sockets that included my listening room had tripped.
I reset it and went upstairs, assuming the review turntable had failed but it was fine and running happily still. However, through the thick fog of smoke in the room I noticed that the power LED on the phono stage I was using at the time was out. I went to remove it from the rack, burning my hand on the lid in the process, which was red hot, and took it downstairs to cool off!
To cut a long story short, one of the rectifier diodes had gone short circuit, overloading the transformer. There was no fusing on the transformer’s outputs so it just sat there cooking itself until its moulded enclosure melted and the windings made contact with the earthed case, tripping the breaker. Had a fuse been fitted on the output side, however, it would have blown.
Even ignoring the potential fire hazard due to the lack of fusing, instead of a repair bill of about £4 for 4 diodes and one fuse, it actually cost me around £50 to fix - 4 diodes, two nearby melted capacitors and one transformer, plus two fuses and fuseholders that I added to the transformer outputs to prevent such future events. Funnily enough, this left the sound completely unaffected! ;)
Worst of all, my flippin’ listening room stank for weeks as well...
I'd be feckin' furious!
It'd depend on how the supplier in question handled the matter. Fuses (and indeed valves) can go at any time. As long as any faulty fuse was replaced F.O.C, during the trial period, I'd be fine with it. If not, and after paying for it in advance, I was left with a faulty fuse, I wouldn't.
Marco.
It'd depend on how the supplier in question handled the matter. Fuses (and indeed valves) can go at any time. As long as any faulty fuse was replaced F.O.C, during the trial period, I'd be fine with it. If not, I wouldn't.
Marco.
Aye, fair point.
BilliumB
17-01-2017, 15:25
Has anyone got a theory to explain firstly why these SR Black fuses are better than 'normal stock fuses' but more importantly how they can be better than a big copper bar as reported by Gaz? I'm intrigued - I'm not doubting Gaz's experience in any way, I just like to get a bit of understanding as to why something might be better before upgrading kit.
Just as an aside, my amp (Conrad Johnson CA200) has 8 fuses (and that doesn't include a plug fuse) so if persuaded it would be a very expensive business! [from the manual: "There are 8 fuses in the CA200. One is the ac power line (mains) fuse. It is located in a fuse holder built into the IEC main power cord receptacle on the back of the amplifier. There are four fuses for the main DC power supplies (two for each channel). These are located on the back of the chassis and are labeled B+ and B-. At the front edge of the main printed circuit board there are two fuses to protect the high-voltage power supplies. Finally, on a small pc board mounted on the front right corner of the chassis (near the main power transformer) is a fuse to protect the control circuit power transformer."] - and that's just the amp!
Cheers. Bill
Has anyone got a theory to explain firstly why these SR Black fuses are better than 'normal stock fuses' but more importantly how they can be better than a big copper bar as reported by Gaz? I'm intrigued - I'm not doubting Gaz's experience in any way, I just like to get a bit of understanding as to why something might be better before upgrading kit.
Just as an aside, my amp (Conrad Johnson CA200) has 8 fuses (and that doesn't include a plug fuse) so if persuaded it would be a very expensive business! [from the manual: "There are 8 fuses in the CA200. One is the ac power line (mains) fuse. It is located in a fuse holder built into the IEC main power cord receptacle on the back of the amplifier. There are four fuses for the main DC power supplies (two for each channel). These are located on the back of the chassis and are labeled B+ and B-. At the front edge of the main printed circuit board there are two fuses to protect the high-voltage power supplies. Finally, on a small pc board mounted on the front right corner of the chassis (near the main power transformer) is a fuse to protect the control circuit power transformer."] - and that's just the amp!
Cheers. Bill
Bill,
Have a go at cleaning your fuses and fuse holders see what you think? :)
I'd like to know myself about the fuse and what it does, but I'm not stressing about it happy to accept what I'm hearing.
The copper bar thing Im not hung up on, was interesting enough though.
No expert but a couple of thoughts about it I posted elsewhere:
*Sorry 'bout 'dat chaps*
ell-tell
17-01-2017, 16:46
A fuse will of course Ristrict current, whereas the copper bar, will not! How then could the fuse sound better, this doesn't make any sense.
montesquieu
17-01-2017, 16:54
The proof that there is/was no "shilling" will become patently obvious when discussion of this particular tweak runs its course and dies a natural death, which will happen sooner rather than later... As indeed is the case with 95% of such tweaks, with probably no more than half a dozen people in total having been tempted to buy one of the fuses in question [hardly the basis of successful shill or scam], leaving the accuser of such looking once again like a deluded and demented tit!
Marco.
LOL. I guess Marco you were never tempted to start any of these fads yourself of course not ..... :uhho:
I'll get my coat.:whistle:
Sovereign
17-01-2017, 17:05
Chaps, mention was made earlier in the thread about replacing a fuse with a piece of copper bar. If this wasn't said in jest (and I sincerely hope it was), may I implore you all not to go down this route? Whether you think different fuses make a difference or not, the fact is they are there for a reason. To bypass them in this manner is foolish at best and downright dangerous at worst.
Blimey I'm surprised this thread is still going.
I wouldn't ever recommend someone change out the fuse in their equipment for a copper bar especially as some of us run some pretty expensive equipment and none of us would want to see that damaged.
I asked Jerry if he fancied changing the fuse in the mains plug which wasn't even connected to his hi-fi for a copper bar, which is relatively safe unless you have an insatiable need to cut your mains cable and you have a pair of garden shears to hand .
A fuse will of course Ristrict current, whereas the copper bar, will not! How then could the fuse sound better, this doesn't make any sense.
Lots of things don't to be fair?
No expert opinion, just some thoughts of a layman who trusts his ears...
Trying to think about my (subjective) results , if I'm reading the discussion correctly the assumption seems to hinge on the copper bar being a 100% conductor (i.e. 'No fuse'?)...so obviously better?
Couple of thoughts...
There certainly wasn't a lot in it for me when I compared the two, but I did have a preference for the fuse, but as I said elsewhere more of a preference than an absolute better/worse.
Maybe on paper it should have been a 'KO'...but given than things dont happen on paper usually could there be other factors?
I'd expected the bar to sound better so genuinely no expectation bias from me.
Scratching my head for possible reasons - what about the copper bar itself?
It had been sitting in a bucket for ages and wasn't in great shape, even after cleaning it.
Trying to offer up an idea...in reality, could the fact that the bar wasn't in perfect condition have made it ACTUALLY act as more of a fuse than the 'no fuse' idea on paper?
I know that just because it's copper doesn't mean its necessarily a 100% perfect conductor?
https://www.properzi.com/literature/category/4-copper-rod-and-wire?download=10:factors-affecting-electrical-conductivity-of-cu
If not a perfect conductor, with impurities and resistive factors...could this have an audible effect?
Someone has also said somewhere that the fuse 'could' give better results than a copper bar, depending on how it was used and where it was in the circuit.
Just a thought, I'm no expert and definitely go by what I my ears tell me nowadays.
The Black Adder
17-01-2017, 17:16
This is one of those strange things in hifi.
Let's just say that in some systems I'd imagine these type of tweaks won't work for some.
What can I say apart from 'Shakti' :eyebrows: of which I have no experience with, or even Bybee's. Both of those things seem more 'far out' than a fuse for some reason. But... I'd give them a go or at least hear what other people say.
To believe is to try it for yourself.
Now... where's my wand. ;)
BTW... I'm currently running my system through a Nick Gorham DC Blocker... sounds superb.
anthonyTD
17-01-2017, 17:25
Bump.
Jez,
I too have comented on this in past threads relating to upgrade fuses.
And I agree with most of what you have written here, the only reason a fuse could posibly have any affect over another is due to its resistance, or posible bottle neck affect to large instantaneous current swings.
Now, as you quite rightly stated; a fuse is designed to be the weakest link in the chain, it is meant to go before anything else; ie; tracks, wiring etc.
My own personal findings with these fuses; to have any affect, is; that they cannot be the same rating as a standard like for like fuse, and therefore have lower resistance, which inturn in some equipment would relate similarly to what Alan [Firebottle] was sugesting, ie; removing the fuse all together, and replacing it temporarily with a thick piece of wire, and I am with alan on this, as I am sure it would have the same desired affect.
Unfortunetly though, in both cases, ie; the upgraded fuse, and the piece of wire, the equipment in question would no longer posses the same level of safety, as it had with the original standard fuse fitted [of this I am certain going on past experience]
I have witnessed this first hand, and have seen with my own eyes the damage these types of fuses can cause in certain types of equipment, when they failed to do their job!
Yes, as with many things Audio, I do believe that such things can have a sonic affect, THIS IS THE PART WHERE Jez and I will mostly always disagree, but we are both grown ups, and I am sure we will always have the respect for each other to agree to disagree on such matters.
All I am saying is; be careful where you fit these things, and if they are in bits of kit that you tend to leave on 24/7, my advice would be ; turn the kit off when not in use!
This is one of those strange things in hifi.
Let's just say that in some systems I'd imagine these type of tweaks won't work for some.
What can I say apart from 'Shakti' :eyebrows: of which I have no experience with, or even Bybee's. Both of those things seem more 'far out' than a fuse for some reason. But... I'd give them a go or at least hear what other people say.
To believe is to try it for yourself.
Now... where's my wand. ;)
BTW... I'm currently running my system through a Nick Gorham DC Blocker... sounds superb.
Sorcery!
The Black Adder
17-01-2017, 17:32
Sorcery!
LOL... Well, everyone knows Nick is a Wizard and not of this earth. :) :) :)
LOL. I guess Marco you were never tempted to start any of these fads yourself of course not ..... :uhho:
I'll get my coat.:whistle:
HA - very good...! Dunno about "fads"; many of the recommendations I've given here have been taken up and enjoyed by 100s, if not 1000s of people worldwide, and continue to do so to this day, the modded Techy, Raspberry Pi and optimising DL-103s, being but three! ;)
And besides, that wasn't the point. I'm not the one plagued by a persecution complex and mania for shilling, giving me a propensity to treat everyone as an 'enemy'/'scammer', or think that they have some ulterior motive, simply because their (in reality innocent) behaviour doesn't fit with my insular and blinkered world view.
Anyway, best leave it there, as we've moved on now from the mentalist antics of he who shall not be named!
Marco.
realysm42
19-01-2017, 06:07
Not used these fuses, but refused (re-fused?) the entire system with hi fi tuning supremes (6 in the sanders, ouch) and enjoy the difference in sound.
Got them from Analogue Seduction too, good guys to deal with.
tubehunter
20-01-2017, 20:43
http://singaporehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/aftermarket-fuses-synergistic-research.html
:)
Happy Days
montesquieu
20-01-2017, 20:49
http://singaporehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/aftermarket-fuses-synergistic-research.html
:)
Happy Days
Either taking the piss or delusional. Hilarious either way.
farflungstar
20-01-2017, 20:52
Either taking the piss or delusional. Hilarious either way.
Agreed.
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
The Audio Magic Beeswax fuse sounds to be the in thing ;)
Shut up y'all till you've tried 'em. :)
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
montesquieu
20-01-2017, 22:36
Hi Eric,
I will be very interested to read your comments after you have tried the fuses for a while. Also whether you find a difference in the way you put them in related to the current flow. That is the writing left to right or right to left.
Regards
:lol:
The Audio Magic Beeswax fuse sounds to be the in thing ;)
I missed that! Beeswax fuse - you couldn't make it up ....
farflungstar
20-01-2017, 22:58
Someone is laughing all the way to the bank...
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w483/farflungstar/Screenshot_2017-01-20-23-56-17_zpsyzv3swqq.png
In perpetual pursuit.
Never say never is my motto if in circuit.
farflungstar
20-01-2017, 23:18
I agree up to a point - but the claims of these are just too ridiculous to take seriously. I cannot believe that putting beeswax into a fuse can in any way aid transparency, detail or owt else. I also doubt it would meet safety regulations. Wax - great for starting fires lol
In perpetual pursuit.
Wax doesn't catch fire though, or candles wouldn't work very well. Otherwise I agree the concept is ridiculous.
farflungstar
21-01-2017, 10:10
No but spread it melted over your PCB and watch what happens...
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
It would have to somehow get out of the container for that to happen.
Given the nature and price of the product criticising it on the grounds of safety seems almost superfluous ;)
Even liquid wax doesnt burn easily. It needs to be turned into gases. Thats the wicks job. Candles are a very interesting thing.
walpurgis
21-01-2017, 10:47
Candles are a very interesting thing.
I remember a girl who used to do interesting things with a large candle. :eyebrows:
I think I met her sister, who enjoyed an 'interesting relationship' with ping-pong balls... Some set of thigh muscles on her! :D
Marco.
Either taking the piss or delusional. Hilarious either way.
Mock not Sir, yest ye be so inclined to try for oneself...btw enjoyed your banter on the old Wam back in the day Monty...
(ex disgruntled Hifi Choice forum user circa 1994/ new Wammer here...)
Its a hard sell and an easy piss-take, but spending £90 to make a substantial enjoyment to your music collection is fuck all nowadays...
So it's a fuse wot did it...aye there's the rub!
montesquieu
21-01-2017, 23:33
Mock not Sir, yest ye be so inclined to try for oneself...btw enjoyed your banter on the old Wam back in the day Monty...
(ex disgruntled Hifi Choice forum user circa 1994/ new Wammer here btw...)
Its a hard sell and an easy piss-take, but spending £90 to make a substantial enjoyment to your music collection is fuck all nowadays...
So it's a fuse wot did it...aye there's the rub!
I was having a go at the write-up on that blog, not your good self ... it's one thing saying 'i heard an improvement, you should give it a listen', another going on like a someone having an attack of verbal dysentery at a wine-tasting night .... I just don't believe that there's that much to say about the differences between fuses.
BTW did someone say you were from Motherwell? I'm originally from there though haven't lived in Scotland since 1991.
walpurgis
21-01-2017, 23:39
I think I met her sister, who enjoyed an 'interesting relationship' with ping-pong balls... Some set of thigh muscles on her! :D
Marco.
She keeps large dogs now.
guardofmagog
22-01-2017, 14:09
Hi. This is quite an interesting thread.
With all those positive reviews I may try it and so for myself. Obviously at that price point I would change fuses on at the time, so where it would be the more beneficial? Going from the source down to amplification starting from phono stage to preamp followed by amp?
Eric
She keeps large dogs now.
The mind boggles! :D
Marco.
Motherwell Man Aye... :)
Ah, I see. No wonder you once nicked 'Brownies' :lol:
How are you Gaz. Long time no see. Hope all is good with you.
Greg,
Long time too long no see fella....
All good,
Nick G's seen me right till my headstone hifi wise...his 300B power amp (with Andrew L's DHT heater supply) is as good as I'll ever need.
Bizaare thing is, you playing 'Spanish Harlem' at Owsten that time through Toppsy's Eddingdales set me on the valve not solid state path....
Glad you've embraced streaming...convenience is King (as long as sound quality isn't compromised....and its not!)
...still loving Brownies :)
I am dragging this back up as I have a question.
Out of a choice of upgraded mains leads and internal equipment fuses (bearing in mind I don't have plug fuses) which would give the greater benefit?
jandl100
13-02-2017, 08:20
I'm an SR Black fuse enthusiast - I've got 2 now! :)
But I haven't tried them as internal fuses, and I haven't tried them in a standard kettle lead.
Tbh - I doubt if anyone has done both, which is what is required to respond to your question.
I am sure, based on my own experiences, that both approaches will reap worthwhile rewards.
Which would you do first?
jandl100
13-02-2017, 08:27
The fuse is easier and less ambiguous as to choice (there are LOTS of audiophile mains cables out there!).
I would try a fuse, I think. They are on sale or return.
If it doesn't impress, you can always try again later once you have upped the mains cables to your satisfaction.
Thanks.
If I do a mains cable, I guess the first one is the one feeding my mains regenerator?
jandl100
13-02-2017, 08:41
Thanks.
If I do a mains cable, I guess the first one is the one feeding my mains regenerator?
Yes, I would do that. My jaw drop moment was with replacing the fuse in the plug from the wall feeding my mains block which feeds my system.
I guess the power from the wall is the first 'choke point'.
If there is a scientific effect I'd be interested to see what members thought it might be
for example
better electrical conductivity
some phenominia conected with the transmission of frequency
an indirect effect on other components?
I think you just need to picture the wire in a normal fuse - often thinner than a human hair. In any other situation such as water flowing in a pipe, light down a tunnel, people rushing through a narrow doorway, etc that would be bad.
Yes, I would do that. My jaw drop moment was with replacing the fuse in the plug from the wall feeding my mains block which feeds my system.
I guess the power from the wall is the first 'choke point'.
Which fuses are you using Jerry?
jandl100
13-02-2017, 09:29
Which fuses are you using Jerry?
SR Black 13A fuses in mains plugs - 1 at the wall which feeds my ProJect Connect-It mains block (superb, btw!) and 1 in the cable feeding my power amp. I tried the 2nd fuse in my pre-amp's mains cable first but that didn't seem to make any improvement.
May give the SR fuses try Jerry, could be better than the HiFi -Tuning fuse I tried previously. May concentrate on power amps first.
May give the SR fuses try Jerry, could be better than the HiFi -Tuning fuse I tried previously. May concentrate on power amps first.
More SR Blacks on their way to Gaz Towers...
Ali Tait
17-03-2017, 06:21
Will replacing the fuses in the Alfa make it drive better? :eek:
Floyddroid
17-03-2017, 06:51
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
The Black Adder
17-03-2017, 07:31
Will replacing the fuses in the Alfa make it drive better? :eek:
Lol... It might make it more reliable. ;)
Ali Tait
17-03-2017, 07:53
Weeeelll, all I can say is I've had three Alfas, and all were as reliable as a bag full of reliable things..
brian2957
17-03-2017, 08:38
Will replacing the fuses in the Alfa make it drive better? :eek:
:D
Firebottle
17-03-2017, 17:09
Weeeelll, all I can say is I've had three Alfas, and all were as reliable as a bag full of reliable things..
Where do you get the bags from? :eyebrows:
Lidl. Next to the display of tinned fish.
Lidl. Next to the display of tinned fish.
That's where I get my "tuits" (the round kind).
Will replacing the fuses in the Alfa make it drive better? :eek:
Naa,
I'm bypassing Bella's fuses with copper bars...:D
Stratmangler
17-03-2017, 20:25
Naa,
I'm bypassing Bella's fuses with copper bars...:D
Careful fellah - you've probably increased the weight of the metal content by a factor of 3 :D
Where do you get the bags from? :eyebrows:
I believe that Macca keeps a supply handy for when he bags a 'growler' from the local disco.
Marco.
I believe that Macca keeps a supply handy for when he bags a 'growler' from the local disco.
Marco.
works the other way round too ;)
http://cdn3.pressroomvip.com/wp-content/uploads/man-with-paper-bag-on-his-head-next-to-woman.jpg
I trawled through the first 30 pages of this thread this afternoon with some dismay because I thought I had put this to bed some time ago as mythical in the case of fuses.
Alas no, some hear differences, and it is unscientific to be dismissive of them, they involve perceptions as much as other scientifically based things.
There is no doubt that fuses do, as with other crude connections, oxidize, and they escape our attention for long periods.
In the 70s I used Belling-Lee coax plugs and sockets for connection using a 'Y' cable between my Quad 33 pre and Nelson Jones 10+10 class 'A' power amp. This illustrated to all visiting that polishing the plugs and sockets improved the sound considerably into Tannoy Gold Lancasters, and engineers laughed at this as 'silly engineering'.
For both my Hi-Fi and my studio I have home made distribution boards, seven on the Hi-Fi one and eleven on the studio one.
In the former I have used the 5A Duraplug type because it is much easier to get a good contact between a round pin hole, than a square pin and a square hole, in which a fraction of a degree of error from square results in an infinitely small contact area.
I have also doubled the flex, soldered it, and cut half round stainless steel tubes which go under the screws to prevent them cutting the 'blobbed' flex strands, and also increased the size of the screws from 6BA to 4BA.
De-oxit and pro-gold every five years.
I am dragging this back up as I have a question.
Out of a choice of upgraded mains leads and internal equipment fuses (bearing in mind I don't have plug fuses) which would give the greater benefit?
Logic would dictate using them where the current drawn was largest ... along the mains supply to the power amp.
Although, what 'logic' has to do with this thread, I'm not sure :lol:
But, hey, 400 posts ... impressive!
Good post.
In my own experience, given that all power eventually becomes what you hear and actually goes through the fuse, I see it as an integral part of the power supply.
Its a potential 'choke point' and I think this may be where any improvements may come from.
Agree with you on Deoxit and Pro Gold, its great stuff. :thumbsup:
I trawled through the first 30 pages of this thread this afternoon with some dismay because I thought I had put this to bed some time ago as mythical in the case of fuses.
Alas no, some hear differences, and it is unscientific to be dismissive of them, they involve perceptions as much as other scientifically based things.
There is no doubt that fuses do, as with other crude connections, oxidize, and they escape our attention for long periods.
In the 70s I used Belling-Lee coax plugs and sockets for connection using a 'Y' cable between my Quad 33 pre and Nelson Jones 10+10 class 'A' power amp. This illustrated to all visiting that polishing the plugs and sockets improved the sound considerably into Tannoy Gold Lancasters, and engineers laughed at this as 'silly engineering'.
For both my Hi-Fi and my studio I have home made distribution boards, seven on the Hi-Fi one and eleven on the studio one.
In the former I have used the 5A Duraplug type because it is much easier to get a good contact between a round pin hole, than a square pin and a square hole, in which a fraction of a degree of error from square results in an infinitely small contact area.
I have also doubled the flex, soldered it, and cut half round stainless steel tubes which go under the screws to prevent them cutting the 'blobbed' flex strands, and also increased the size of the screws from 6BA to 4BA.
De-oxit and pro-gold every five years.
sq225917
18-03-2017, 23:41
So normal electricity comes out of the wall, goes through the fuse, and gets all high quality 'quantumized' and this has such an effect on the electrons that it lasts through the rest of the system all the way to the drive units...
Seems like we need only install one biggun at the power station then we can all enjoy it.
As well as sounding like total bullshit.
Ill be writing to the importer and asking for proof of Eu/BS compliance and passing it on accordingly.
So normal electricity comes out of the wall, goes through the fuse, and gets all high quality 'quantumized' and this has such an effect on the electrons that it lasts through the rest of the system all the way to the drive units...
Seems like we need only install one biggun at the power station then we can all enjoy it.
As well as sounding like total bullshit.
Ill be writing to the importer and asking for proof of Eu/BS compliance and passing it on accordingly.
Yup.
American kit can sound pretty good, and doesn't meet Eu/BS compliance?
French, Dutch, Japanese, Swahili (and now I come to think on it Punjabian Urdu) kit can all sound pretty decent too?
As with my original post on SR Black fuses Si, it's what I heard in my system with my ears.
sq225917
19-03-2017, 10:02
I don't doubt what you think you heard. I do doubt their safety as fuses.
My instinct sq225917, is to be as dismissive as you are about the fuse itself, but we need level matching within 0.1dB, and random D.B. testing to validate differences.
As for safety, a fuse cannot be that difficult to design, and as a long as the wire has the right melting current and time to do so, surely it will protect the equipment. The surrounding sleeve must be easy to make comply surely?
Apart from cleaning contacts, I cannot see any 'magic' being conferred onto the sound, but our perceptions cannot be dismissed without investigation.
Some folk think that electricity flows one way into a system and therefore the fuse influence is small,but Hifi components sit between live and neutral and AC power oscillates between 50-60hz. Therefore as well as cables being influential so are fuses in this context as they sit between a complex network of cables,wires and connectors. These all have an effect on the components power supply.
Another misconception is that the component sits at the end of an electrical supply but the component sees itself at the beginning and end!
walpurgis
19-03-2017, 11:08
Fuses are just there as protection.
I'm drowning in the non sequiturs of post 418.
I'm drowning in the non sequiturs of post 418.
:lol:Regarding post 417. Somethings cannot be measured but can be heard.
anthonyTD
20-03-2017, 11:52
Can someone post up a detailed pick of the end caps on these fuses, [where the letters and numbers are denoting the Amperage etc] I have a hunch.
A...
jandl100
20-03-2017, 11:58
Fuses are just there as protection.
So is a condom - but some will tell you that you can feel the difference :eyebrows:
So is a condom - but some will tell you that you can feel the difference :eyebrows:
And I am sure there are those that prefer one brand over another, or even one type over another.
So normal electricity comes out of the wall, goes through the fuse, and gets all high quality 'quantumized' and this has such an effect on the electrons that it lasts through the rest of the system all the way to the drive units...
Seems like we need only install one biggun at the power station then we can all enjoy it.
As well as sounding like total bullshit.
Ill be writing to the importer and asking for proof of Eu/BS compliance and passing it on accordingly.
Perhaps the fuse is a bit like the injectors in a fuel injection system. The fuel is the same before and after the injectors, but if they aren't clean the engine isn't going to perform as well as it could do.
walpurgis
20-03-2017, 23:22
Perhaps the fuse is a bit like the injectors in a fuel injection system. The fuel is the same before and after the injectors, but if they aren't clean the engine isn't going to perform as well as it could do.
No No. After injection fuel is vapour and micro globules. I don't think electricity does this (Hmm, electric vapour? I could be onto something here :lol:! And don't mention plasma, it's not the same).
I don't know that I've heard of anyone taking complete measurements of an amp, then installing these fuses, and then conducting the same measurements on that amp? They could alter the slew rate? Or some other measurement of speed, or frequency, or current delivery. But, if I had to guess, I'd say it would show up in the slew rate. A fuse doesn't act as an amperage filter, it breaks when it gets hot, and they calculate that if say, 5 amps flows through this tiny wire it will cause it to heat up to the point of breaking, but no one questions how quickly it can go from zero to 5 amps? One would think it could happen instantly? But I doubt that's the case. Due to its small size it would have a rise time, would it not? So, whether or not a fuse makes a measurable difference could depend on what you are measuring?
But apparently everyone is not impressed, otherwise makers of expensive gear would be installing them at the factory?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
jandl100
21-03-2017, 10:22
But apparently everyone is not impressed, otherwise makers of expensive gear would be installing them at the factory?
I see that line of reasoning trotted out now and then, and I really don't think it usually applies.
Cost competitiveness is an issue at all price levels.
You rarely see high end gear sold with high end power cables, for instance. And yet many folks (me included) consider that kit benefits from this.
Lots of other examples of 'cost cutting' or at least rrp awareness at all price levels.
So the fact that fancy fuses aren't included means little, I think.
In the case of conventional power supplies the capacitors hold most of the charge which will be demanded by current peaks, and this is a low Z source, the fuse passing a relatively constant current to fill up these reservoir caps.
It is therefore rather unlikely that a fuse will impose a significant 'signature' on the proceedings, and I'm open to my ears telling me differently, but I doubt that anything would be measurable.
I've not studied switching power supplies, but they seem to be based around cost cutting, and spew out a lot of RF crap.
Power cables; all I do is ensure that the 'kettle' end has copper beryllium contacts, and squash them with a toolmakers clamp through the outer plastic to ensure they tightly grip the pins, and that the cable is high current, usually RS ones.
The only fuses I have are in the distribution boards, (previous post), I/C 13A plugs, or any the equipment has itself.
In addition to MK filtered outlets, I have my own mains filter, which after discussion with RA when buying the caps, he then introduced with a VDR as his own plug-in wall wart filter selling for £70. (Silencer).
Mine is just three 0.1 microfarad 1000V caps across the three mains terminals.
Do not use RS 400V ones, I had these explode when my kettle went s/cct, and caused a current surge 20' away.
Speaker cables; with the ESS speakers I tried 2nd hand Concert Cable 3, 2.5mm, OK, QED Silver Anniversary, and it was toppy, Kimber 4TC which was more neutral, and K 8TC which screwed the top completely and boosted the bass several dB.
I returned all RA cables and bought Ecosse 3.5 which is good, but I am sceptical about it all.
430 posts later and it's back to my original post ...available on a 30 day trial folks.
I have them throughout my system now and I've heard a noticable substantial improvement (though to lesser or greater degrees) wherever I've put them.
The cumulative effect is mire than woth the money spent.
If curious at all save yourself the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth and hear 'em for yourself at no financial risk.
Dave at MCRU does 'em as does Analogue Seduction and others.
Or not, thats up to you.
But, seriously (as Frank Zappa said) its all about the music...if your curious hear em for yourself and 'stop dancing about architecture.' :)
I am tempted to try one on the cd player. Thing is I am not one of these who is happy if it sounds better. I will still want to know why.
Having heard the difference a decent mains cable from MCRU made to my system, once I have finished upgrading the power leads, I may try an internal fuse or three to see if they do make a difference to my ears.
DB A/B equal level within 0.1dB testing anyone?
anthonyTD
22-03-2017, 10:50
Anyone ?
Can someone post up a detailed pick of the end caps on these fuses, [where the letters and numbers are denoting the Amperage etc] I have a hunch.
A...
I am tempted to try one on the cd player. Thing is I am not one of these who is happy if it sounds better. I will still want to know why.
What if there is no satisfactory explanation available?
Would you still trust your ears, telling you there is a difference (hopefully an improvement), and leave it there and enjoy the upgrade, and its effect on your favourite music, or drive yourself demented trying to explain the (perhaps currently) unexplainable? :)
Not everything experienced in life can be neatly pigeonholed into little boxes of 'indisputable proof', designed to make you feel better about yourself! ;)
Marco.
If in doubt...God did it :)
What if there is no satisfactory explanation available?
Would you still trust your ears, telling you there is a difference (hopefully an improvement), and leave it there and enjoy the upgrade, and its effect on your favourite music, or drive yourself demented trying to explain the (perhaps currently) unexplainable? :)
Not everything experienced in life can be neatly pigeonholed into little boxes of 'indisputable proof', designed to make you feel better about yourself! ;)
Marco.
And here we have in a nutshell the problem with being an arch subjectivist.
It has nothing to do with 'feeling better about myself'. It has everything to do with wanting to understand how audio replay works so that knowledge can be put to practical effect, not just in creating better audio systems but in creating cheaper audio systems.
If the fuse makes a difference/improvement beyond the placebo level then there certainly will be a satisfactory technical explanation for it. Antony TD already has his suspicions and has asked for some easily-provided information to take that further.
Sorry, but I am not one of those people who is happy to sit back and accept that it is 'magic' or that it doesn't matter as long as 'Wish You Were Here' sounds good to me.
If that attitude was common to everyone we would still be living in the Dark Ages and sacrificing chickens to the rain god.
We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. :)
Not entirely convinced by that particular aphorism, James.
Everything real is quantifiable.
RothwellAudio
22-03-2017, 13:14
We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. :)
Really? I've certainly measured plenty of changes without being able to hear them.
Really? I've certainly measured plenty of changes without being able to hear them.
You need to clear the wax out your ears then.:)
It has nothing to do with 'feeling better about myself'.
It absolutely *does* because you've just admitted it bugs you if you can't explain why something has an effect. Therefore, if you find a satisfactory explanation, then it automatically follows that you'll feel better, simply because your inquisitiveness has been satisfied! ;)
It has everything to do with wanting to understand how audio replay works so that knowledge can be put to practical effect, not just in creating better audio systems but in creating cheaper audio systems.
I agree, and *if* proof that satisfies my judgement criteria becomes available, which explains why 'audiophile fuses' make a difference, then I'd welcome it with open arms.
However, in the meantime I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but simply relax and enjoy the upgrade, if one indeed is perceived. That's called behaving like a human being and having faith in one's senses. Yes, senses are fallible, and I acknowledge that, but neither is 'scientific proof' always infallible.
That fact should always be considered before simply dismissing our ears and senses as reliable arbiters of the truth.
If the fuse makes a difference/improvement beyond the placebo level then there certainly will be a satisfactory technical explanation for it. Antony TD already has his suspicions and has asked for some easily-provided information to take that further.
I *absolutely* agree... BUT, finding a satisfactory technical explanation for it that qualifies as indisputable proof of its efficacy is quite another matter.
Anthony simply has a theory (that I'd welcome be put forward and tested), which may or may not explain what's going on, but it's no more than that, and certainly without further rigorous investigation, would not qualify as indisputable proof.
Therefore, we're back to the old 'how much do you trust your ears' thing again, as until someone nails what's happening [I]conclusively and can demonstrate it beyond reasonable doubt, then that, together with various theories (and our ears) is all we have.
Sorry, but I am not one of those people who is happy to sit back and accept that it is 'magic' or that it doesn't matter as long as 'Wish You Were Here' sounds good to me.
If that attitude was common to everyone we would still be living in the Dark Ages and sacrificing chickens to the rain god.
Nor me, but then neither am one to fret or get anxious about what I'm genuinely hearing, which can't currently be explained or proven.
With hi-fi, there is always the danger of analysing the buggery out of things, to the detriment of one's enjoyment of the process, and hi-fi forums are full of such 'victims'. The fact is, owning a hi-fi system should be FUN, and an experience to be enjoyed, not simply acting as an (often frustrating) science experiment... ;)
And in terms of your last sentence, that statement should also be directed at those who believe that, unless something can be scientifically proven [with the limitations of the tools and knowledge available to us now], it automatically doesn't exist and/or has been imagined, because that attitude is just as bad and similarly guilty of holding back progress!
Marco.
Not entirely convinced by that particular aphorism, James.
Everything real is quantifiable.
Just thought it might apply the original post.;)
Really? I've certainly measured plenty of changes without being able to hear them.
...and I've (genuinely) heard plenty of things without being able to measure them (or rather without someone else being able to do so).
I fundamentally believe, however, that *any* real effect CAN be measured - there is no doubt about that - but the problem is we might not necessarily use (or indeed currently have) the right tools for the job.
Also, we may be looking in the wrong area in the first place, in order to find the right explanation for the existence of a specific effect, and thus reach the wrong conclusion. Think about that one, too...
In any case, the person who invents a tool (or utilises the right one currently) and can demonstrably say 'there you are', here is indisputable proof that audiophile cables or fuses make a difference (or don't), will make a fortune.
Until then, debates such as this will rage on, with nothing being 'indisputably proven' by either camp! And that, my friends, is the reality. Me? I'll continue believing what I perceive as real (with or without proof), and leave the 'fretters' to their fretting... ;)
Marco.
It absolutely *does* because you've just admitted it bugs you if you can't explain why something has an effect. Therefore, if you find a satisfactory explanation, then it automatically follows that you'll feel better, simply because your inquisitiveness has been satisfied! ;)
I agree, and *if* proof that satisfies my judgement criteria becomes available, which explains why 'audiophile fuses' make a difference, then I'd welcome it with open arms. However, in the meantime I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but simply relax and enjoy the upgrade, if one indeed is perceived.
I *absolutely* agree... BUT, finding a satisfactory technical explanation for it that qualifies as indisputable proof, of its genuine effect or not, is quite another matter.
Anthony simply has a theory (which I'd welcome be put forward), which may or may not explain what's going on, but it's no more than that, and certainly without further rigorous testing would not qualify as indisputable proof.
Therefore, we're back to the old 'how much do you trust your ears' thing again, as until someone nails what's happening conclusively and can demonstrate it beyond reasonable doubt, that, together with various theories (and our ears) is all we have.
Neither am I, but then neither am one to fret or get anxious about what I'm genuinely hearing, which can't currently be proven. With hi-fi, there is always the danger of analysing the buggery out of things, to the detriment of one's enjoyment of the process. Owning a hi-fi system should be FUN, and an experience to be enjoyed, not simply to act as an (often frustrating) science experiment... ;)
And in terms of your last sentence, that statement should also be directed at those who believe that, unless something can be scientifically proven [with the limitations of tools and knowledge available to us now], it doesn't exist and/or has been imagined, because that attitude is just as bad and similarly guilty of holding back progress.
Marco.
Not fretting, not losing sleep, and your last paragraph I completely agree with but that is not the situation here.
The situation here is that someone who's opinion I trust says that these fuses make a difference. That means I will consider it worthwhile enough to suspend my scepticism enough to give it a try myself. If I also am happy that I am hearing a difference that is comfortably beyond placebo then I do not think it unreasonable to start asking questions as to why, since this does not conform to the standard playbook.
Maybe we will not find the answer right away, but there will be an answer. If we find it then we know how the process works. it may be possible to replicate it without paying silly money for these fuses. It might explain a lot of things previously dismissed as placebo, imagination and expectation bias.
We already have issues in this hobby with people drawing the wrong conclusions and making wrong assumptions which has got so bad the manufacturers are now pandering to it instead of devoting resources to actually making better kit, they are marketing bullshit because bullshit sells to the uneducated punter.
We need to get back to the days of the proper enthusiast who at least knew the basics of how his kit turned electrical impulses into sound and was less inclined to be mesmerised by marketing rhetoric and if presented with a bit of kit that sounded good was immediately inclined to ask 'how have they done that, then?'
RothwellAudio
22-03-2017, 15:27
You need to clear the wax out your ears then.:)
Well, that's a possibilty I suppose. Just to clarify, are you saying that anything I've been able to measure I should also be able to hear? Even the stuff at 100kHz? Do you expect other people to hear things at 100kHz too?
...and I've (genuinely) heard plenty of things without being able to measure them (or rather without someone else being able to do so).
This seems a lot more reasonable to me. It's quite easy to measure things at 100 kHz which people can't hear. It's difficult to measure things at low levels which people can hear - or at least I find it difficult to measure them.
I'm in full agreement, Martin, with all that you've written. However, in terms of this:
We need to get back to the days of the proper enthusiast who at least knew the basics of how his kit turned electrical impulses into sound and was less inclined to be mesmerised by marketing rhetoric and if presented with a bit of kit that sounded good was immediately inclined to ask 'how have they done that, then?'
Absolutely... As long as said "proper enthusiast" doesn't become mesmerised either (or obsessed) with having to *prove* or explain everything he hears before he believes it, otherwise he's in for a world of disappointment, because proof won't always be there when it's needed.
Whilst all that you've said is true, there comes a point too, when a "proper enthusiast" (not necessarily an equipment builder or designer) throws the text books, measurements and theories out of the window, and trusts the ears and instincts he was born with - and most importantly of all doesn't forget what this hobby is about, first and foremost: the enjoyment of music.
It's all too easy sometimes to lose sight of what really matters!
Marco.
Indeed. Spotify through my headphones isnt hi fidelity as such but its damn enjoyable and thats more important than wondering about this, that or the next thing.
Well, that's a possibilty I suppose. Just to clarify, are you saying that anything I've been able to measure I should also be able to hear? Even the stuff at 100kHz? Do you expect other people to hear things at 100kHz too?
This seems a lot more reasonable to me. It's quite easy to measure things at 100 kHz which people can't hear. It's difficult to measure things at low levels which people can hear - or at least I find it difficult to measure them.
You are probably correct Andrew. Science may yet prove that we are still sensitive to sound even though we think we can't actually consciously hear it. Very high or low frequencies may actually have an influence on how we hear things in the range we perceive as being audible.
Indeed. Spotify through my headphones isnt hi fidelity as such but its damn enjoyable and thats more important than wondering about this, that or the next thing.
Ultimately, the end goal for any enthusiast and music lover should be about achieving enjoyment from listening to their favourite music, not using his or her system as their pet science project.
Marco.
I would much rather talk about a product and how it sounds rather than how it works.
Indeed, and so it should be for most enthusiasts and music lovers. Leave the rest to those who build the equipment we use, or who are predisposed to concerning themselves about such matters.
I buy a TV to watch and enjoy TV programmes and movies, a fridge to chill my beers and a cooker to cook my food, not to worry about what makes it all work - and so it is with hi-fi.
Ultimately, for most people, it's all about the end result! :cool:
Marco.
Fridges don't interest me, hi fi does. I think by not caring how it works we can potentially become just mug punters willing to buy the next gizmo without question. I'm sure manufacturers and salesmen are happy if that is the case but I'm not.
It's not a matter of not caring - of course we care, but it's about caring to a justifiable extent, so that 'caring' about how something works doesn't impinge on enjoying its primary function :)
I got into hi-fi because I'm a music lover and enjoy good sound, not a technical freak.
Marco.
anthonyTD
22-03-2017, 18:46
Just to clarify, I am not about to prove either way what you folk here seem to be experiencing, what I am interested in is getting to the bottom of what may be happening, which is why I am asking for some clear picks of one of these fuses, I thought there may be at least one person here' who has experienced the changes after fitting one' would be interested in confirming my own thoughts on the matter.
A...
Yeah, come on guys (Gaz in particular), snap a clear pic of the fuses concerned (of what Anthony has requested) and let's see it! :)
Marco,
Neither am I a techno freak. I'm too thick to understand it in the depth where I could design a DAC or an amplifier. Having at least layman's understanding of what is happening is useful though.
Example - A mate brings round a bit of kit for you to try in your system. It is much better than the item it replaces. Problem is you could never afford one, not even used. But by reading up on its technical spec you could, providing you have some understanding, work out why it is that you like it so much and look to buy something with the same qualities (again identified by the technical spec) but which is far more inexpensive. Thus getting what you want and increasing your enjoyment of the music.
Neither am I a techno freak. I'm too thick to understand it in the depth where I could design a DAC or an amplifier. Having at least layman's understanding of what is happening is useful though.
Example - A mate brings round a bit of kit for you to try in your system. It is much better than the item it replaces. Problem is you could never afford one, not even used. But by reading up on its technical spec you could, providing you have some understanding, work out why it is that you like it so much and look to buy something with the same qualities (again identified by the technical spec) but which is far more inexpensive. Thus getting what you want and increasing your enjoyment of the music.
Lol - if only it were that simple!
There could be all sorts of factors responsible for why that piece of kit sounded how it did, regardless of its technical spec - synergy with the partnering system, for starters, and any number of variables that the technical spec of the equipment would provide little or no explanation for.
That's why, at the end of the day, it's what YOU hear that matters most, and thus what should ultimately be used as your judgement criteria for assessing kit, not what's written on a piece of paper.
Apart from cartridge selection, I built my whole system paying not a jot of attention to the technical spec of anything, and look at the results I've achieved! ;)
Marco.
Synergy with the partnering equipment is due to the technical spec, as is everything else about it you might like. What else could it be due to?
And I never said it was easy.
Don't get me wrong I am not advocating some uber-objective approach where if it measures correctly then it is correct even if it sounds rubbish. It is about using specs as a tool to enable you to get more for your money.
Just to clarify, I am not about to prove either way what you folk here seem to be experiencing, what I am interested in is getting to the bottom of what may be happening, which is why I am asking for some clear picks of one of these fuses, I thought there may be at least one person here' who has experienced the changes after fitting one' would be interested in confirming my own thoughts on the matter.
A...
Overspec wire ergo Overspec for the given rating Anthony?
Without wanting to open up my kit and spoil the current enjoyment of my Moozic...
I refer the honourable Gentleman (and Anthony :)) to my original post.
Yeah, come on guys (Gaz in particular), snap a clear pic of the fuses concerned (of what Anthony has requested) and let's see it! :)
Marco,
These fuses use graphene as the fusible conducting filament, in place of the usual tinned copper wire. That is why they are expensive.
However since a conventional 3A rated fuse uses a copper wire 0.15mm in diameter and 25mm long, it already has a vanishingly low series impedance of 0.025 Ohm + 0.4uH, so I cannot see how replacing the copper wire with a graphene filament could significantly improve on that.
At 50Hz, the 3A copper wire fuse will have an impedance of 0.025 + j4.10-7 Ohm, compared to a typical mains source impedance (at the wall socket) of 0.25 + j0.23 Ohm.
Synergy with the partnering equipment is due to the technical spec, as is everything else about it you might like. What else could it be due to?
Lol - now I know why it's taken you so long to get to where you are with your system! Sorry mate, but that thinking is so simplistic I don't know where to start....
First of all, unless you *fundamentally* understand what the spec you're referring to means, and its relevance in relation to how a piece of equipment sounds, then its next to useless.
You might think you understand it enough to make a judgement call on how a piece of kit will sound, but in reality it'll be more down to luck than anything else.
Secondly, the most important factor, in terms of how the final sound of anything is achieved, is when the designer 'voices' it by ear. *That bit* is most influential in either you liking what you hear or not - and how would you measure that, let alone apply it to a spec??
That's the problem with playing 'Top Trumps' with hi-fi - it only ever reveals part of the story: the part that doesn't matter the most.
Don't get me wrong I am not advocating some uber-objective approach where if it measures correctly then it is correct even if it sounds rubbish. It is about using specs as a tool to enable you to get more for your money.
Yes, and as I've said, that'll only work if you fundamentally understand what the specs mean, in relation to the sound quality produced by the equipment concerned, otherwise you're largely just kidding yourself on.
Marco.
Without wanting to open up my kit and spoil the current enjoyment of my Moozic...
I refer the honourable Gentleman (and Anthony :)) to my original post.
Lol - unfortunately the pics don't reveal the necessary details clearly enough. We need a clear close-up of what's written on the end caps.
Marco.
I know some audio designers do actually choose components for their 'sound quality' rather than just fitting X or Y capacitor because it fulfils its electrical function.
If an amplifier designer just assembled a piece of equipment purely based on technical specifications because electrically that's all the components needed to do then a) most amplifiers would sound the same and b) most of them would probably not sound very musical.
Yes technical specifications tell you something but they don't tell you how it will sound.
Going back to Gaz's fuse, trying to measure and understand the technical aspects only gets you part of the way. Sticking it in you system and listening tells you everything else.
I know some audio designers do actually choose components for their 'sound quality' rather than just fitting X or Y capacitor because it fulfils its electrical function.
If an amplifier designer just assembled a piece of equipment purely based on technical specifications because electrically that's all the components needed to do then a) most amplifiers would sound the same and b) most of them would probably not sound very musical.
Indeed, on all counts! The first bit in particular is what Martin needs to 'get' - and once he does, he'll realise that no specs in the world will provide that information, quite simply because "sound quality", in isolation, can't be measured.
Marco.
My point missed completely as usual but never mind, carry on.
So explain it better then - that's why it'll have been missed! ;)
Marco.
Lol - unfortunately the pics don't reveal the necessary details clearly enough. We need a clear close-up of what's written on the end caps.
Marco.
From memory?
Had a few of these fuses in now, standard stampage is "230V / (amp rating I chose)"
All blank metal end caps with stamped voltage and whatever current rating I've specified to replace the stock rating I've had in before.
No fuss/No drama... looks like generic fuses apart from an acumulated ball of 'stuff' in the centre of the fuse.
I will start a new thread at some point.
I will start a new thread at some point.
Think we have strayed off post a bit in this one.:lol:
I will start a new thread at some point.
Lol - ok, but when you do, bear in mind that sometimes what seems crystal-clear to you, isn't to others, which perhaps is why your point is missed ;)
Be *very specific* about the point you're making, and then it's less likely to be misconstrued.
Marco.
That isn't so easy to do if the point is quite complex.
Anyway back to fuses.
anthonyTD
23-03-2017, 09:23
Thats fine Gaz,:)
I am just trying to get my head around why there is such a marked diffrence [and I am not doubting your findings or anyone elses here] I still feel it is something that will indeed affect the breaking characteristics when compared to the standard fuse it replaces. I will do some more research on the matter elsewhere, and if something turns up at a later date, that I feel is relevent to this thread, I will post it here.:)
Without wanting to open up my kit and spoil the current enjoyment of my Moozic...
I refer the honourable Gentleman (and Anthony :)) to my original post.
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 09:55
Secondly, the most important factor, in terms of how the final sound of anything is achieved, is when the designer 'voices' it by ear. *That bit* is most influential in either you liking what you hear or not - and how would you measure that, let alone apply it to a spec??
I've heard this referred to before, how a designer will "voice" a piece of electronics. Sounds like bullshit to me. Yes, when someone makes a musical instrument they will create a voice for it by thinning the top, choosing heavy bracing or whatever, and when someone designs a guitar amp they will do whatever is required to give it a certain voice - but how do you "voice" a power amp? And why would you even want to give it a voice? I think some people like to create more mystique around what they do than is justified.
Some bulls shit smellier than others :D
I've heard this referred to before, how a designer will "voice" a piece of electronics. Sounds like bullshit to me. Yes, when someone makes a musical instrument they will create a voice for it by thinning the top, choosing heavy bracing or whatever, and when someone designs a guitar amp they will do whatever is required to give it a certain voice - but how do you "voice" a power amp? And why would you even want to give it a voice? I think some people like to create more mystique around what they do than is justified.
I think what Marco is suggesting is that amplifier designers can choose a variety of components, valves, mosfets, fets, capacitors etc which will all influence the final sound 'voice' of the amplifier. Apart from the electrical specification a component has consideration of its sonic signature is surely a prerequisite in designing an audio component?
Firebottle
23-03-2017, 10:07
I'm with Andrew on this.
I think this is a bit of an urban myth, helped along by valve rolling and 'fancy' capacitor dielectrics being swapped in various kit.
In my experience differences in sound, or 'presentation' if you like, occur due to changes or deficiencies in the impedance/matching in the specific position in circuit where parts are swapped.
I use the word deficiencies as I consider it to be less than optimal circuit design if changes are encountered. My circuit design strives to achieve the best clarity possible and to reduce as much as possible the effects of different components.
:D
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 10:21
...consideration of its sonic signature is surely a prerequisite in designing an audio component?
No, I don't think so - audio components don't have a sonic signature. For example, what is the sound of a transistor? As far as my approach goes, it doesn't have a sound because it cannot even function in isolation. Unless it's in a circuit it won't even work at all, let alone display any sonic signature.
Things like carbon comp resistors could be said to have a sonic signature but in reality it's just poor performance rather than a useful characteristic.
I'm with Andrew on this.
I think this is a bit of an urban myth, helped along by valve rolling and 'fancy' capacitor dielectrics being swapped in various kit.
In my experience differences in sound, or 'presentation' if you like, occur due to changes or deficiencies in the impedance/matching in the specific position in circuit where parts are swapped.
I use the word deficiencies as I consider it to be less than optimal circuit design if changes are encountered. My circuit design strives to achieve the best clarity possible and to reduce as much as possible the effects of different components.
:D
But Alan you have said to me many times that your amps sound the way they do due to your linear circuit design and you would not use any old bits and bobs to throw your amps together, surely? You design your amps carefully selecting components and circuit design in order to make them sound the way they do?
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 10:24
...My circuit design strives to achieve the best clarity possible and to reduce as much as possible the effects of different components.
I can relate to this. Yes, making the circuit better is a sensible goal. Giving a circuit a "voice" is more like voodoo.
Light Dependant Resistor
23-03-2017, 10:30
I think what Marco is suggesting is that amplifier designers can choose a variety of components, valves, mosfets, fets, capacitors etc which will all influence the final sound 'voice' of the amplifier. Apart from the electrical specification a component has consideration of its sonic signature is surely a prerequisite in designing an audio component?
Very much so. Well done !:) Listening is at the top of the ladder in building a good circuit, as is good knowledge of components
and knowing how each one sounds related to each part of the design. Accompanying this is a good knowledge of how live music sounds
and knowledge of music in its many forms.
Cheers / Chris
Light Dependant Resistor
23-03-2017, 10:34
No, I don't think so - audio components don't have a sonic signature. For example, what is the sound of a transistor? As far as my approach goes, it doesn't have a sound because it cannot even function in isolation. Unless it's in a circuit it won't even work at all, let alone display any sonic signature.
Things like carbon comp resistors could be said to have a sonic signature but in reality it's just poor performance rather than a useful characteristic.
You have a lot to learn, for instance common base vs common emitter and common collector - all sound different when correctly placed
per their electrical requirements in a circuit. Yet they are all transistors in this case used in different ways
Similarly the fet and mosfet equivalents all sound different. As do operational amplifiers as do valves, as does basically everything.
The ability to then hear for instance how a common emitter sounds with a well chosen miller capacitor vs a mosfet with miller capacitance already provided
in its construction is an example. Also hearing what value of Miller cap sounds best vs what a scope shows - hopefully you are starting to see that components
are critical, as is listening and measuring.
I think what Marco is suggesting is that amplifier designers can choose a variety of components, valves, mosfets, fets, capacitors etc which will all influence the final sound 'voice' of the amplifier. Apart from the electrical specification a component has consideration of its sonic signature is surely a prerequisite in designing an audio component?
Indeed....
Surely every competent audio designer, after a product has passed their 'bench test', and measured within accepted parameters, will still listen to said component, in the context of a known test system, and ascertain whether the sonic result obtained is acceptable?
If it measures superbly, yet sounds disappointing or not quite right, what should a good designer do, simply say: 'Feck it, I'll sell this regardless, as my ears must be deceiving me'? I don't think so! :nono:
A competent designer, with pride in his product and who seeks for it to achieve the best possible performance, will fine-tune, i.e. 'voice' the final circuit, perhaps by changing a capacitor and/or resistor, here or there, then measure and listen again, until he is satisfied that the final product not only measures well, but *sounds* good (read as satisfies what his ears tell him best replicates that of real instruments and voices).
*That* is how the best equipment is built, and it's no accident, therefore, that the finest sounding equipment out there is often produced by the designers who get that last bit right the most!
Quite simply, it's that final 'fine-tuning' which can be the difference between creating merely a mediocre product, or a great one - and chances are, said adjustment will have little or no impact on the product's technical performance/spec, simply because it's likely that whilst a simple cap or resistor change can effect a noticeable difference in sound quality, the product will still measure the same, which is why (as I was saying yesterday to Macca), using technical specs to determine how something will sound is not the best way of achieving any form of certainty in that respect.
If the term 'voicing' offends you, then simply replace it with 'fine-tuning'. 'Voicing' is used to indicate where human input has taken place, during the design of any equipment, which results in elevating its performance beyond what was attainable via measurement alone.
The fact is, we cannot currently measure everything that we can genuinely hear, so it is vital that ears are used as the final arbiter in the design of any good equipment.
Marco.
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 11:42
You have a lot to learn, for instance common base vs common emitter and common collector - all sound different when correctly placed
per their electrical requirements in a circuit. Yet they are all transistors in this case used in different ways
Similarly the fet and mosfet equivalents all sound different. As do operational amplifiers as do valves, as does basically everything.
The ability to then hear for instance how a common emitter sounds with a well chosen miller capacitor vs a mosfet with miller capacitance already provided
in its construction is an example. Also hearing what value of Miller cap sounds best vs what a scope shows - hopefully you are starting to see that components
are critical, as is listening and measuring.
Thanks for being so patronising - made my day.
At one of the NEBOs Les from Avondale gave a little talk where he explained how he 'voiced' (although I don't believe he used that exact term) his power amplifiers by using certain types of components i.e resistors etc of different construction and materials, and he likened this to a chef adding herbs and spices to a curry.
Firebottle
23-03-2017, 13:21
But Alan you have said to me many times that your amps sound the way they do due to your linear circuit design and you would not use any old bits and bobs to throw your amps together, surely? You design your amps carefully selecting components and circuit design in order to make them sound the way they do?
Yes, the major influence is the actual circuit design, then using components of type and specification that are known not to influence the sound when they are used within the best circuit conditions.
In other words if the circuit conditions suit the particular component well then you don't need 'foo' capacitors for instance.
I'll explain in more detail when we get together next.
:cool:
sq225917
23-03-2017, 16:18
Graphene fuse element, is it fuckers like.
Maybe wire coated in Graphene powder...
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 16:31
Here's some "info" from the website of one the fancy fuse manufacturers (about one of their other products):
"So we began researching variables that could contribute to the mystery of midnight vs. mid-day system performance and came to the conclusion that man-made and solar RF must play a significant role. This led us to research of factors that contribute to fluctions in the Earth’s ambient RF environment. Ted reasoned that if differences in RF can degrade the sound, then RF can be modeled and shaped to improve the sound.
There are three major disturbances on the Sun that affect radio propagation here on Earth. Solar Flares, Coronal Holes, and Sudden Disappearing Filament (SDF). Each disturbance causes both electromagnetic radiation and ejection of material from the Sun that alters RF on Earth. What we looked at was how each of these disturbances affects our RF environment during the day vs late at night with the intention to mimic late night conditions to improve sound mid-day..."
And it goes on. Make of it what you will.
Sounds very reasonable.:)
. Ted reasoned that if differences in RF can degrade the sound, then RF can be modeled and shaped to improve the sound.
.
Was this Big Ted or Little Ted?
What was Hamble's input?
RothwellAudio
23-03-2017, 16:42
If anyone wants to read the rest it's here:
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/acoustics/atmosphere/
BTW, this is the bit where it goes off the rails first:
"...and came to the conclusion that man-made and solar RF must play a significant role." Must? Why must it?
sq225917
23-03-2017, 17:05
assumptions make an ass of you and me.
Anyone with half an ounce of knowse and recourse to graphene electrical resistivity measurements knows you can't make a fusible element out of it, it's too conductive, the different between a 1amp strip and 100 amp strip would be tiny. Also they need to connect it to the end caps and that requires mounting to metal and soldering. Maybe they roll a bit of fuse wire in charcoal dust but I do not for one naosecond believe they use graphene as the conductive/fusible element. It's just bullshit, as is their obfuscation of any reasoning behind the design.
If you can't see that the marketing babble is just there to lead to the phrase 'night and day difference' by the use of relatively sharp NLP then you deserve to be fleeced.
At one of the NEBOs Les from Avondale gave a little talk where he explained how he 'voiced' (although I don't believe he used that exact term) his power amplifiers by using certain types of components i.e resistors etc of different construction and materials, and he likened this to a chef adding herbs and spices to a curry.
And it's an apt analogy. Building a musically realistic/rewarding piece of equipment is akin to blending together a collection of 'flavours', in order to create a successful recipe. It's a process that applies to both chefs and audio designers :)
Marco.
assumptions make an ass of you and me.
Anyone with half an ounce of knowse...
What language is that, then? Not sure if I need any "knowse", but I'll take half a pound just to be polite :D
Did you mean nous? ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
23-03-2017, 18:02
Here's some "info" from the website of one the fancy fuse manufacturers (about one of their other products):
"So we began researching variables that could contribute to the mystery of midnight vs. mid-day system performance and came to the conclusion that man-made and solar RF must play a significant role. This led us to research of factors that contribute to fluctions in the Earth’s ambient RF environment. Ted reasoned that if differences in RF can degrade the sound, then RF can be modeled and shaped to improve the sound.
There are three major disturbances on the Sun that affect radio propagation here on Earth. Solar Flares, Coronal Holes, and Sudden Disappearing Filament (SDF). Each disturbance causes both electromagnetic radiation and ejection of material from the Sun that alters RF on Earth. What we looked at was how each of these disturbances affects our RF environment during the day vs late at night with the intention to mimic late night conditions to improve sound mid-day..."
And it goes on. Make of it what you will.
Reads like a hifi company has been taken over by Scientologists.
I must say I have very little patience with kit that needs capacators hand-rolled in the Japanese forest on the thighs of virgins suitably earthed against static build-up .... I'd personally rather they spent the dosh on better transformers.
Firebottle
23-03-2017, 19:08
Building a musically realistic/rewarding piece of equipment is akin to blending together a collection of 'flavours', in order to create a successful recipe.
I'd say it was more a task of balancing all the compromises that inevitably occur.
Certainly for commercial operations cost is a major compromise, 'how much is that output transformer?!' :eek:
I'd say it was more a task of balancing all the compromises that inevitably occur.
Yes, just like following a recipe and balancing all the ingredients, so that the final 'dish' is tasty! ;)
Marco.
Here's some "info" from the website of one the fancy fuse manufacturers (about one of their other products):
"So we began researching variables that could contribute to the mystery of midnight vs. mid-day system performance and came to the conclusion that man-made and solar RF must play a significant role. This led us to research of factors that contribute to fluctions in the Earth’s ambient RF environment. Ted reasoned that if differences in RF can degrade the sound, then RF can be modeled and shaped to improve the sound.
There are three major disturbances on the Sun that affect radio propagation here on Earth. Solar Flares, Coronal Holes, and Sudden Disappearing Filament (SDF). Each disturbance causes both electromagnetic radiation and ejection of material from the Sun that alters RF on Earth. What we looked at was how each of these disturbances affects our RF environment during the day vs late at night with the intention to mimic late night conditions to improve sound mid-day..."
And it goes on. Make of it what you will.
Which Manufacturer said this bollocks?
Graphene fuse element, is it fuckers like.
Maybe wire coated in Graphene powder...
I literally have no idea how graphene in used in this fuse.
Website certainly gives no indication.
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