View Full Version : Consider the dear old Shure 97xe...it's £70! And it's great.
I did, too. I was going to buy it (as that would've provided me with a totally NOS example), and then sell the other one I have to someone here. However, someone here might well be bidding on it.
Also, as good as it is for the money, it'll only ever be a secondary cartridge for me, so I've decided to pull out and let whoever *really* wants it, win it :)
Marco.
well it wont be me now :doh:
Well, at least you won't have me outbidding you now! ;)
Marco.
No, just everyone else here lol... I will leave it I think. dont like inflated prices; thought it may stay under the radar; fat chance lol... think he said he had more of them.
That's cool, but for me, unless it goes for some ridiculous price, it won't be inflated. Given the sonic prowess of the M55E, and how it can compete with many much more expensive modern cartridges, anything less than £100 will be a bargain! :)
Marco.
Guitarrero
20-01-2016, 18:32
That's me out then; I've been watching for a few days too.
I asked, and the seller has no other M55E but has listed the others he had mentioned ... "2 M75EJ Type2. 2 M75ED Type2. 1 M75B Type2 I will put them on eBay this weekend"
That's me out then; I've been watching for a few days too.
I asked, and the seller has no other M55E but has listed the others he had mentioned ... "2 M75EJ Type2. 2 M75ED Type2. 1 M75B Type2 I will put them on eBay this weekend"
The 75's are good and you can source jico and he stylii for them.
That's me out then; I've been watching for a few days too.
Why, Steve? Get right in there and win the bugger... Currently, it's only sitting at £40! :)
Marco.
I know I sound like an old record:lol:but this is a fantastic cartridge for the money but more importantly it does so much right in a pure analogue way. Bit like NOS valves where many of today's new stuff just can't match what the old ones can do.
My M55e puts a smile on my face every time I drop it in the groove and I prefer it to my 2M black certainly for everyday listening.
My JICO SAS stylus has arrived so will be auditioning it fully at the weekend. My hunch is that it might start to veer the cartridge towards a more analytical detailed sound but I am hoping to retain some of the positive qualities of the M55e.
The intention is to have a cartridge fitted that would require a simple stylus swap in order to produce two different styles of listening depending on the mood and music but only taking a minute to achieve.
Who knows the JICO might be absolutely addictive and really turn the m55e into a true giant killer!:)
Just had a close look at the pics of the actual cartridge in the box and it exactly like mine with metal stylus guard, so definitely one to go for, looks absolutely authentic. Only difference is outer box, mine was red if you look back at pics earlier in this post.
Guitarrero
20-01-2016, 18:57
I think if you look again at where it clips onto the yellow stylus 'carrier' you can see through the stylus guard, so 99.99% s(h)ure it's a plastic one ;^)
I thinks yours was an earlier version? but don't know if it will sound any different??
Just had a close look at the pics of the actual cartridge in the box and it exactly like mine with metal stylus guard, so definitely one to go for, looks absolutely authentic. Only difference is outer box, mine was red if you look back at pics earlier in this post.
I think if you look again at where it clips onto the yellow stylus 'carrier' you can see through the stylus guard, so 99.99% s(h)ure it's a plastic one ;^)
I thinks yours was an earlier version? but don't know if it will sound any different??
Sorry Steve my eyesight not great and I tried to blow picture up on my pad so to me it looked like metal.
Less than 10 mins left now...!! £51.00, with 16 bids.
Get in there or be square ;)
Marco.
Wow, the word has definitely got out about the M55E.
Did you not win it then, Dave? ;)
£64.00... BARGAIN!!
Marco.
Gone for £64 so good price for lucky buyer. Well done.
;)
Ha - did you land it?
Marco.
One of you guys in the UK should buy this USA made SC35C.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272104190768?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l5999&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI272104190768.N36.S2.R3.TR10
Guitarrero
20-01-2016, 20:16
Wasn't me! ... decided to save my pennies for the Decca ffss I want.
Maybe :D yup I thought it would go for a fair bit more tbh, but happy enough with that. not eating til I sell something though.... anyone want a special deal on my Americana vinyl in the sales listed:eyebrows:
Haha - well done! See how generous I am? ;)
Enjoy, matey... I think you'll love it :thumbsup:
Marco.
Haha - well done! See how generous I am? ;)
Enjoy, matey... I think you'll love it :thumbsup:
Marco.
see if it competes with my uber AT95
walpurgis
20-01-2016, 20:21
Wasn't me! ... decided to save my pennies for the Decca ffss I want.
Ah, Sounds like a good move. I've just picked up a couple myself. Best get in quick, prices are shooting up for good vintage FFSS carts. They do sound great though. (in fact nothing else at all sounds quite like them, not even the Londons, etc.)
Well done Grant.
I have the At95 and the M55e is in a different league.
Well done Grant.
I have the At95 and the M55e is in a different league.
Have you tried a AT95 with a Jico though?
Guitarrero
20-01-2016, 20:24
:) Agreed!
Ah, Sounds like a good move. I've just picked up a couple myself. Best get in quick, prices are shooting up for good vintage FFSS carts. They do sound great though. (in fact nothing else at all sounds quite like them, not even the Londons, etc.)
walpurgis
20-01-2016, 20:24
Maybe :D yup I thought it would go for a fair bit more tbh, but happy enough with that.
Hope you enjoy it Grant. Everybody who's using one seems to like them. Fair to say, it's so long since I heard one I can't recall what they were like. Got a decent sounding M75 though.
Shure I will Geoff :doh: :lol::lol: did you see my new cabs?
Have you tried a AT95 with a Jico though?
Err No.:scratch: BUT I am about to try the M55e with a JICO!:)
TBH, I'd expect an M55E to piss all over any AT MM cartridge, as far as musicality is concerned. Only if you like that rather 'etched', spotlit and lean/treble-emphasised sound of ATs (or your system needs perking up a bit), would you prefer the AT95.
The Shure has an altogether meatier, bolder, deeper and 'chunkier' sound, which just rocks! :hairmetal:
Marco (not a fan at all of modern Audio Technica cartridges).
Err No.:scratch: BUT I am about to try the M55e with a JICO!:)
It made a BIG difference to it putting the shibata on it.. over £100 mind, so not exactly cheap, but its now very good indeed...and interestingly you never see anyone selling them off once fitted
walpurgis
20-01-2016, 21:09
did you see my new cabs?
I did. Where did you snaffle those from. Dynatron are they not? Should be well made.
No Idea who made them, and yes they are nice. still in great nick too. intend fitting a angled baffle into them as they are a tad low. think it would be that or removing the legs and stand mounting them with something. the mild angle may do the job; wont need much...could be wrong of course, I'm just thinking off top of my head
walpurgis
20-01-2016, 21:21
Take off the back feet and put shorter ones on.
Take off the back feet and put shorter ones on.
Yes, thats an option I guess...Never occurred to me TBH. :scratch: or add spikes to front I guess. No rush with these, but nice to have them here. see where I am when I have sold some gear, or get back down the docks ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/82fcfa7f698183e0a59878bcf071799c63d63967.jpg
TBH, I'd expect an M55E to piss all over any AT MM cartridge, as far as musicality is concerned. Only if you like that rather 'etched', spotlit and lean/treble-emphasised sound of ATs (or your system needs perking up a bit), would you prefer the AT95.
The Shure has an altogether meatier, bolder, deeper and 'chunkier' sound, which just rocks! :hairmetal:
Marco (not a fan at all of modern Audio Technica cartridges).
I don't find the cheap ATs at all like you describe them, in fact they're some of the most easy to live with cheap carts out there IMO. Can't stand the cheap Shures myself, at least the M75 - though it sounds initially 'exciting' I always find that wears off rather quickly, after which I can't wait to get rid of it to listen to some real music again, which doesn't try to artificially smear the boogie all over my face :) Haven't really heard other Shures in my system, but if the M75 is any inclination of the 'house sound', they probably aren't for me.
You can make the ATs sound horrible with too much capacitance though, the less the better for them. Something like 200pf still works fine, but after that it starts to get worse and worse, harsh peak in the lower/mid treble which makes them sound more like you describe. The downside of that is many phono stages have 220pF input capacitance and if you add 100pF or so for arm cable, you're already in the danger zone.
Anyway, it's all very system / taste dependentant of course, only way to find out really is to have a listen for yourself in your system, luckily with the carts we're talking about that's not a very expensive way to find out. Admittedly my system on the whole does lean a bit on the warm side.
I like tge at95 myself Kai. Does most things well enough and with a he stylus is quite refined. With a shabata it is amazingly good even though the stylus is over £100 once you get your hands on it and if as they are or were hard to get and there was usually a waiting list. It is differentvto my ortofon mc but none the less holds its head up well
Well folks, been a bit busy these last few days so didn't see the NOS M55E on ebay. £64 .......Wow!:doh:
Mkes mine from the US at $102 (approx £72 q6 today's rate) with 2 styli & postage included (SEE previous postings) look like the bargain of the century. :lol:
Absolutely LOVING the sound it makes & looking forward eagerly to Jimbo's report on the Jico stylus.
Well, if the JICO SAS on the M55 is as good as the same stylus on my M91ED then he will be happy. Mine digs out the detail that is hiding in the recesses of the groove, but is not so analytical that it sounds cold and uninvolving (or even worse, shrill). I'd imagine that the way the M55 has been reported to perform in standard guise, it will surpass mine.
Hi Kai,
I don't find the cheap ATs at all like you describe them, in fact they're some of the most easy to live with cheap carts out there IMO.
I guess it's all relative, and so about what you're used to and what you like/consider as 'good' :)
Can't stand the cheap Shures myself, at least the M75 - though it sounds initially 'exciting' I always find that wears off rather quickly, after which I can't wait to get rid of it to listen to some real music again, which doesn't try to artificially smear the boogie all over my face. Haven't really heard other Shures in my system, but if the M75 is any inclination of the 'house sound', they probably aren't for me.
I'm inclined to agree, and have already said similar things, about Shures in general, earlier in the thread. Therefore, don't get me wrong, I'm no Shure 'fanboy' ;)
However, there are certain vintage cartridges (one still in current production) within their range, namely the M55E, M3D and SC35C, which IMO when properly partnered, produce a remarkable sound for the money: musically, one you can 'relax into' and leave your 'analytical head' switched off - and *that* is very important to me with ANY piece of hi-fi equipment.
Quite simply, I'll always choose (to my ears) 'musical sounding' cartridges, over 'hi-fi sounding' ones - and in that respect, I'll usually take a Shure over an Audio Technica, in the same way I'd take a Denon (or a Nagaoka) over an Ortofon or Lyra. I'm generalising a bit here of course, but the established 'house sound' of cartridges from those manufactures, for me, is more musically satisfying and rewarding - and also more 'real'.
You can make the ATs sound horrible with too much capacitance though, the less the better for them. Something like 200pf still works fine, but after that it starts to get worse and worse, harsh peak in the lower/mid treble which makes them sound more like you describe. The downside of that is many phono stages have 220pF input capacitance and if you add 100pF or so for arm cable, you're already in the danger zone.
Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's all about synergy and setting things up properly, so that the item(s) in question perform to their full capability. However, having listened to AT cartridges for as long as I have, say, Denon ones (35 years or so), both have their intrinsic 'house sound', and my ears are more attuned to preferring that of the latter. You may be the opposite.
Anyway, it's all very system / taste dependentant of course, only way to find out really is to have a listen for yourself in your system, luckily with the carts we're talking about that's not a very expensive way to find out. Admittedly my system on the whole does lean a bit on the warm side.
For sure, and like you say it's also a question of system balance.
There's no point in using a 'warm' sounding cartridge if the tonal balance of your system is already tipped towards that area, so you counteract that effect by fitting a brighter one, which is likely one of the reasons why, for you, the AT works well. At the end of the day, you just have to use your ears and choose what you like and think works best in your system :cool:
Marco.
Very interesting thread. I recently picked up a project deck which needs some love. It's a Thorens TD-125 with a Grace G-707 arm.
I had been thinking about putting in a V15 as that would be a classic pairing with the Grace arm. However, this thread has got me thinking about getting the M97xe instead with a view to maybe putting a Jico SAS tip on at a later date.
Marco and Jim's comments on the even cheaper M55 make it quite an enticing prospect too but I note that Marco mentioned that the M55 seemed to like a little additional mass. Therefore, am I right in thinking that the higher compliance M97xe would be a better match with the ultra low mass Grace arm than the M55? Thanks.
Think it depends how much vtf you intend putting on it imv. A light arm should get away with lighter tracking which with an eliptical is no bad thing i think. The 55 has a large swing on weight from .75 to 2.gm
walpurgis
21-01-2016, 17:01
An ADC 10E Mk.IV works great in the Grace arm. (if you can find a good one, as in my avatar :))
Hi Paul,
Marco and Jim's comments on the even cheaper M55 make it quite an enticing prospect too but I note that Marco mentioned that the M55 seemed to like a little additional mass. Therefore, am I right in thinking that the higher compliance M97xe would be a better match with the ultra low mass Grace arm than the M55?
Yes (in theory at least anyway), but we all know that, when put into practice, theories are often blown out of the water, so I guess you'd have to try it and see... :)
However, based on my experience so far with the M55E, it definitely like a bit of mass up its ass! ;)
It's a very different cartridge, in many ways, from the MX97xe; one more for the soul, than the head, as it were.... The latter is a bit too 'airy-fairy'; one could say 'ethereal', or lacking in BALLS, for my tastes.
Marco.
One of you guys in the UK should buy this USA made SC35C.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272104190768?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l5999&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI272104190768.N36.S2.R3.TR10
Got one already (including a 'Made in USA' NOS stylus)! ;)
I plan to do to it, what you did with your cartridge... :)
Marco.
Thanks gents for all your replies. The ADC 10E Mk IV looks interesting. It will take me a few months to get the deck sorted so I shall keep an eye out on ebay for a suitable ADC. There is a 'new' ZLM improved (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADC-ZLM-Improved-Phono-Cartridge-MINT-Stylus-boxed-with-all-accessories-1979-/252233047665?hash=item3aba42de71:g:53cAAOSwK7FWhWg S) up now but it is out of my reach presently at £180.
narabdela
22-01-2016, 10:45
Thanks gents for all your replies. The ADC 10E Mk IV looks interesting. It will take me a few months to get the deck sorted so I shall keep an eye out on ebay for a suitable ADC. There is a 'new' ZLM improved (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADC-ZLM-Improved-Phono-Cartridge-MINT-Stylus-boxed-with-all-accessories-1979-/252233047665?hash=item3aba42de71:g:53cAAOSwK7FWhWg S) up now but it is out of my reach presently at £180.
Your Grace arm might be a bit too hefty for a ZLM, but it's a brilliant cartridge.
JICO SAS Cartridge now in my possession after ding dong with customs and the post.
Will pop it in the M55e over the weekend and let you know my first impressions as I hear them.
Looking forward to this one.:)
I have now put quite a few hours on the Jico SAS /M55e and I can now give a fair account of what this combination can do.
Firstly I must say this was not simply a case of pulling out the NOS Shure stylus and plugging in the JICO, the stylus is a completely different position to the original and requires moving the whole cartridge forward a fair bit. The JICO SAS is the thinnest smallest cantilever/ stylus combination I have ever seen, it is about a third of the thickness of the original Shure and hard to see with the naked eye. I wear glasses and I had to resort to a large magnifying glass in order to set overhang.:eek: The cantilever is Boron so extremely thin and easy to break so mucho care needed handling this cartridge, also JICO recommend not touching any part of it at all as grease or moisture can affect performance.
Ok after setting up painstakingly and checking VTA and overhang twice I found VTF of 1.35g just about right, JICO do not recommend going above 1.5g.
This stylus although even finer and smaller than the line contact stylus digs deeper into the groove but does not create anywhere as near as much surface or groove noise. Ticks and pops are 50% less than my 2M black which was extremely noisy seeming to pick out every crackle going. However this stylus is even more resolving than the line contact.
The SAS not only takes away a veil it opens a huge door onto the recording compared to the NOS Shure but it doesn't give up some of the great qualities of this cartridge. It still sounds very musical and way less harsh than the 2M in this regard the Ortofon almost sounds rough. The detail is superb with fabulous acoustic space in the recording. Instruments are much better delineated with twice as much detail and acoustic information than the Shure.
Vocals are now walk around and revealed in a natural fuller range from top to bottom. This is a truly wonderful cartridge/stylus combination! The only area that losses out is some of the honey tinged midrange of the original Shure but the SAS is so much more transparent and open in this area, it breathes and has much more dynamic expansion. In fact i can honestly say although i was a bit nervous the SAS would just be about hyper detail this is not how it translates in the M55e. It is almost a perfect marriage of each resulting in a new whole that is extremely listenable and beautiful, a superb balance between detail and musicality.
Obviously I have vinyl everywhere and am flying through loads of stuff but even at this early stage I can hear all the potential this combination has. Without a doubt the SAS stylus has elevated the M55e into an extraordinary good MM cartridge which goes far beyond the original and certainly better than my previous 2M in almost every way.
Total cost £200 for cartridge + SAS stylus including import duty.
I am listening just now and feel this is as good as I will ever need in a MM cartridge!:)
The Jico SAS stylus is so different from the original N55E, that its use with an M55E body means that we're now talking about an entirely different cartridge. I have an M55E and your enthusiastic review of the Jico SAS stylus temps me to try the same with my cartridge body.
Mind you, it will have some way to go to match the performance of the ADC 10E's, the ADC 25s, the AKG P8ES or the B&O MMC20 range, but we shall see.
Thanks for the review - it' got me thinking! :)
Firebottle
23-01-2016, 14:14
.......which goes far beyond the original and certainly better than my previous 2M in almost every way.
:wow: I'm sure you told me once you were no good at describing audio, me thinks you was fibbing James :nono:
Excellent review and very glad it's hitting the spot for you.
:wow: I'm sure you told me once you were no good at describing audio, me thinks you was fibbing James :nono:
Excellent review and very glad it's hitting the spot for you.
Thanks Alan, to be honest experimenting with this cartridge has been inspiring.
Thanks to Marcos well judged hunch, the Shure M55e with the JICO SAS can really be turned into a top notch MM cartridge able I am sure to compete with absolutely any MM out there.
I have now put quite a few hours on the Jico SAS /M55e and I can now give a fair account of what this combination can do.
Firstly I must say this was not simply a case of pulling out the NOS Shure stylus and plugging in the JICO, the stylus is a completely different position to the original and requires moving the whole cartridge forward a fair bit. The JICO SAS is the thinnest smallest cantilever/ stylus combination I have ever seen, it is about a third of the thickness of the original Shure and hard to see with the naked eye. I wear glasses and I had to resort to a large magnifying glass in order to set overhang.:eek: The cantilever is Boron so extremely thin and easy to break so mucho care needed handling this cartridge, also JICO recommend not touching any part of it at all as grease or moisture can affect performance.
Ok after setting up painstakingly and checking VTA and overhang twice I found VTF of 1.35g just about right, JICO do not recommend going above 1.5g.
This stylus although even finer and smaller than the line contact stylus digs deeper into the groove but does not create anywhere as near as much surface or groove noise. Ticks and pops are 50% less than my 2M black which was extremely noisy seeming to pick out every crackle going. However this stylus is even more resolving than the line contact.
The SAS not only takes away a veil it opens a huge door onto the recording compared to the NOS Shure but it doesn't give up some of the great qualities of this cartridge. It still sounds very musical and way less harsh than the 2M in this regard the Ortofon almost sounds rough. The detail is superb with fabulous acoustic space in the recording. Instruments are much better delineated with twice as much detail and acoustic information than the Shure.
Vocals are now walk around and revealed in a natural fuller range from top to bottom. This is a truly wonderful cartridge/stylus combination! The only area that losses out is some of the honey tinged midrange of the original Shure but the SAS is so much more transparent and open in this area, it breathes and has much more dynamic expansion. In fact i can honestly say although i was a bit nervous the SAS would just be about hyper detail this is not how it translates in the M55e. It is almost a perfect marriage of each resulting in a new whole that is extremely listenable and beautiful, a superb balance between detail and musicality.
Obviously I have vinyl everywhere and am flying through loads of stuff but even at this early stage I can hear all the potential this combination has. Without a doubt the SAS stylus has elevated the M55e into an extraordinary good MM cartridge which goes far beyond the original and certainly better than my previous 2M in almost every way.
Total cost £200 for cartridge + SAS stylus including import duty.
I am listening just now and feel this is as good as I will ever need in a MM cartridge!:)
Great review.
If you want to keep playing with your 2M Black too, you can actually use the OM40 stylus in the 2M Black body which is a superior Fritz Geiger and it retrieves more detail and plays with less surface noise than the 2M stylus. It just looks a little bit weird. There's a youtube video comparing the two, but I'm unable to find it right now.
Interesting Dave - must take a look. I think the JICO / M55e is going to keep me happy for quite some time now.
I will be going down the MC route next, in fact I am going to order a Zu Denon 103 when there next in stock.:)
Interesting Dave - must take a look. I think the JICO / M55e is going to keep me happy for quite some time now.
I will be going down the MC route next, in fact I am going to order a Zu Denon 103 when there next in stock.:)
You'll be happy with the Zu Denon, it's such a fun cart.
I couldn't find the video I was looking for but I found another one that shows how the stylus would look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp6RJZoDiEY
Exciting news, Jimbo. Thanks for the report. I am very tempted, but a bit concerned by your saying one has to move the cart forward. My M55E is right forward on the headshell already!
I have the Jico SAS for the M97xE & that too has a very thin boron cantilever & is equally difficult to see, but it slotted in in place of the standard one no bother.
I tried the M55E with stock NOS stylus last night with some classical (orchestral) music; not really it's thing. I am playing the same piece with the M97xE with Jico as I write this and it is much better for classical music I think.
Exciting news, Jimbo. Thanks for the report. I am very tempted, but a bit concerned by your saying one has to move the cart forward. My M55E is right forward on the headshell already!
I have the Jico SAS for the M97xE & that too has a very thin boron cantilever & is equally difficult to see, but it slotted in in place of the standard one no bother.
I tried the M55E with stock NOS stylus last night with some classical (orchestral) music; not really it's thing. I am playing the same piece with the M97xE with Jico as I write this and it is much better for classical music I think.
Hi Julian, in order to get the overhand correct the M55e in my headshell had to be moved forward as the cantilever and stylus tip were quite a way back compared to the NOS Shure. I still have more adjustment on the headshell so its not at the extreme.
Awesome result, Jim! Can't say I'm too surprised :)
Looks like the Jico's improved the hi-fi aspects of the M55, but retained it's fundamental musicality - a win win :hifive: :thumbsup:
Enjoy!
Marco.
Awesome result, Jim! Can't say I'm too surprised :)
Looks like the Jico's improved the hi-fi aspects of the M55, but retained it's fundamental musicality - a win win :hifive: :thumbsup:
Enjoy!
Marco.
Yes, thanks very much pointing me in this direction.:cool:
Jimbo
I don't understand. In theory the Jicos, whether SAS or not, are simply replacements for the original styli & knowing Jico's reputation I would be surprised if they hadn't got it right.
As far as I can remember (my SAS/M97xE has been with me for some 3 years) I simply replaced one for the other;on that cart both non SAS Jico & Shure styli are equally set back. I don't think I even bothered to check it; just popped it in!
If I have to find more forward room I am snookered as I am as far forward in the headshell as is possible with the M55E using a Jelco SA-750.
However I am not going to spend that sort of money if I cannot get it right!
I will check the geometry of both carts & see what I come up with, but not tonight or tomorrow as tomorrow is very busy.
Jimbo
I don't understand. In theory the Jicos, whether SAS or not, are simply replacements for the original styli & knowing Jico's reputation I would be surprised if they hadn't got it right.
As far as I can remember (my SAS/M97xE has been with me for some 3 years) I simply replaced one for the other;on that cart both non SAS Jico & Shure styli are equally set back. I don't think I even bothered to check it; just popped it in!
If I have to find more forward room I am snookered as I am as far forward in the headshell as is possible with the M55E using a Jelco SA-750.
However I am not going to spend that sort of money if I cannot get it right!
I will check the geometry of both carts & see what I come up with, but not tonight or tomorrow as tomorrow is very busy.
It suprised me too Julian. Luckily I have an excellent tool supplied with the VPI Scout for getting the geometry absolutely spot on - I have checked it twice and it is definitely different from the Shure stylus.
Wow, 32 pages.............. and they say that there's no future in nostalgia.
Any day now I shall rake out and photograph the two crystal cartridges ( real good stuff,turnover 78/LP ) that I found lurking in the bottom of a drawer recently.
I will advertise these at a rate that will/may amaze you. But quality costs you know.
I do hope this post doesn't upset any of the more sensitive readers. It is not meant to offend any of the real Hi-Fi enthusiasts who I saw got very hot under the collar when someone posted a picture of a multi function amplifier.
spendorman
24-01-2016, 17:00
Wow, 32 pages.............. and they say that there's no future in nostalgia.
Any day now I shall rake out and photograph the two crystal cartridges ( real good stuff,turnover 78/LP ) that I found lurking in the bottom of a drawer recently.
I will advertise these at a rate that will/may amaze you. But quality costs you know.
I do hope this post doesn't upset any of the more sensitive readers. It is not meant to offend any of the real Hi-Fi enthusiasts who I saw got very hot under the collar when someone posted a picture of a multi function amplifier.
Crystal cartridges wow, why not upgrade go ceramic, Sonotone 9TAHC, Decca Deram etc.
Wow, 32 pages.............. and they say that there's no future in nostalgia.
Nostalgia? Not me. I wasn't even BORN when the M55E was first introduced (1964), nor had I had any experience of using one, before I did recently, as reported on this thread. Nope, all way before my time, Peter, so nostalgia has nothing to do with it.
I raved about how good the Shure was pure and simply because it sounded superb (judged in a modern context) - and way better than many currently produced cartridges do. Therefore, old chap, save your nostalgia comments for another day ;)
Marco.
Ok its getting towards the end of the weekend now:( and I have put a fair few hours on the M55e/Jico SAS and it has now opened up significantly especially the soundstage.
The balance of sound I am getting is a perfect measure of superb detail with excellent dynamics and a richness in the bottom end which has certainly tightened up with the JICO SAS but has kept some of the fullness of the M55e. One aspect I have noticed is how this stylus ignores so much of the surface noise completely, it is so quiet! Whereas my previous cartridge picked out every tiny imperfection much to my annoyance, the JICO sometimes sounds like tape!. Yes it is that good. I have read other reports about the stylus profile doing the opposite but I can assure you this cartridge is very quiet indeed.
I have been through a hell of a lot of material, some audiophile which sounds absolutely stunning, but even some ordinary stuff and mono recordings sound very good. Just been listening to Love over Gold and the dynamics and detail on Private investigations were fabulous. Popped on Art of noise 2nd album and all I can say is wow. The depth to the soundstage and acoustic information from reflected transients were eye/ear popping. This stylus really does convey the acoustic extremely well capturing information I never knew was there. Like I said in my initial review this SAS stylus does retrieve masses of detail but certainly not in an analytical way. It is very much pure analogue just as the name of the stylus suggest. The Japanese certainly know a trick or two. Listening to some Julian Bream Mono recording at the moment and it an absolute joy to listen to, the tone, texture and detail is perfect.
I have read across the internet some modern cartridges are voiced to compete with CD, this cartridge/stylus certainly isn't.
After spending the last 2-3 years putting my system together this has been for me the most pleasurable experience I have had and as I only listen to vinyl it is obviously one of the most important aspects of my system as it frames how I hear everything else.
Just another pointer regarding set up as I have fiddled a bit with this, make sure the bottom of the M55e is absolutely level with the record surface certainly when plugging in the SAS stylus. It does have a significant effect on overall balance of SQ.
Crystal cartridges wow, why not upgrade go ceramic, Sonotone 9TAHC, Decca Deram etc.
No,the last time I tried that particular upgrade I spent many hours making various little boards to go from constant velocity to constant amplitude.Or was it the other way round,I forget.
It's so much easier now.I just buy what I can afford and listen to the music.
Thats all we all do....:)
Hi Jim,
Excellent summary. I'm really pleased that it's worked out well for you, as I'm always a bit nervous making these sorts of recommendations, when it results in other folks spending their hard-earned cash, to see if I'm right.... :dummy: :yay:
Anyway, you've proven once again (as indeed is a premise my own system is based upon), that one of best ways of achieving a superb sound, and high SPPV, is by combining the best of old and new technology!:exactly:
Quite simply, some vintage hi-fi equipment is unquestionably superior to what's being produced now - but it usually needs a gentle 'helping hand' to allow it to perform at the required 'high-end' level, based on modern standards, which in this instance is where the Jico stylus has come in.
Hopefully your experience with the Shure will convince more folks to adopt that approach, and marry the best of old and new gear, in order to create some stunning results, instead of just blindly buying (often inferior) new stuff, 'off the shelf'... Applying some lateral thinking, and shunning 'badges'/hi-fi snobbery, can often pay dividends! ;)
Marco.
ellensdad
24-01-2016, 20:01
First post. Nice review of a sweet cartridge! You've inspired me to go ahead and order the SAS for mine. I had a similar experience adding an SAS to an old A&R P77. The 77/SAS is another great tone cartridge but has a bass weight and articulation that has to be heard to be believed. Combine that with sweet extended highs and great dynamics and you have an amazing musical option for those of us with lighter tonearms and frankly the best cartridge I've owned. I'm very much looking forward to hearing how the Jico transforms the 55. Thanks again for the review.
I had a similar experience adding an SAS to an old A&R P77. The 77/SAS is another great tone cartridge but has a bass weight and articulation that has to be heard to be believed.
Hi Sean,
That's interesting, as in stock form it's rather 'pipe & slippers' :)
Marco.
A good shibata can work wonders. can also supposedly polish your vinyl and make them sound better;)
ellensdad
24-01-2016, 21:16
Hi Sean,
That's interesting, as in stock form it's rather 'pipe & slippers' :)
Marco.
Marco, I read anout this combination on another forum. I've never heard the P77 in its stock form, I bought the cartridge without the stylus. I can tell you the P77/SAS is more dynamic and extended than either a TSD15 SFL or a Zu 103 that I have owned. Granted, neither the 15 or the 103 was in an ideal environment on the rb300.
Hi Shaun,
I don't doubt it, so that's worth bearing in mind :)
Yes, an RB300 wouldn't have been the best place to house a 103. How did you fit a TSD15 on there? It comes incorporated into a headshell. Did you 'nude' it, and fit it that way, or what?
Marco.
ellensdad
24-01-2016, 22:23
Hi Shaun,
I don't doubt it, so that's worth bearing in mind :)
Yes, an RB300 wouldn't have been the best place to house a 103. How did you fit a TSD15 on there? It comes incorporated into a headshell. Did you 'nude' it, and fit it that way, or what?
Marco.
Marco, I had the TSD15N. It comes nude with a standard mount.
Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of that. Cheers.
Those types of cartridges, though, work best on classic (high-mass) Japanese arms with detachable headshells. A Rega really wouldn't cut it: a veritable 'square peg in a round hole'! :)
Marco.
My 55e has arrived
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/e89af6559f90184a51f2140a6ac0434f.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/f19c8eab93067e9d57e344a08798aa65.jpg
Some better pics now its on cherrywood headshell
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/df865895557adcbcd973766fbaa367e5.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/7e32ab41f36c9751c66cf49596082ca8.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/eac2bb989b0afc1cc01bf5dac8be5fd7.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/772673fc44037aca9cf99c59b7d0cb13.jpg
Nice one Grant, looks good nick.
Now you need the JICO SAS stylus;)
She how i get on jim. Need to wait til funds improve as ive bought a gew things already this month
Great stuff, Grant. Let us know how it sounds when you get a good listen :)
Marco.
She how i get on jim. Need to wait til funds improve as ive bought a gew things already this month
I would be interested to hear you opinion of your M55E with the standard 'nail'. If favourable I'll have a play with mine (pace Marco!). What arm will you be using Grant?
Some nice background information regarding the M55e and the Shure range of cartridges.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/shure-m55e-just-how-good-were-those.24459/
Anyone got a good idea of best track weight for this with original stylus using a sme 3009 mk2.. was thinking about 1.6 grams??
Some nice background information regarding the M55e and the Shure range of cartridges.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/shure-m55e-just-how-good-were-those.24459/
dont really see why an elliptical tip will ruin records; think thats a misnomer. some say that about shibatas too; not been my experience
Anyone got a good idea of best track weight for this with original stylus using a sme 3009 mk2.. was thinking about 1.6 grams??
Hi Grant,
You can start there, but you may find that increasing it to 1.8g pays dividends when reproducing more 'challenging' material. Therefore, 1.8g is where I ended up, as it both provided excellent secure tracking, along with preserving the sound's dynamics and 'life' :)
Marco.
Hi Grant,
You can start there, but you may find that increasing it to 1.8g pays dividends when reproducing more 'challenging' material. Therefore, 1.8g is where I ended up, as it both provided excellent secure tracking, along with preserving the sound's dynamics and 'life' :)
Marco.
cheers mate... 1.8 it is then... it has such a wide varion that I wasnt sure:)
Cool. Do let us know how you're finding it, once you've had a proper listen :cool:
Marco.
Cool. Do let us know how you're finding it, once you've had a proper listen :cool:
Marco.
I will. Not had a chance or inclination to listen to anything at moment. been busy and had, as you know some probs that I'm just getting over, but ongoing with the association who are on my side..I think ass has been kicked
Hi Grant,
I tracked at 1.7g with the Shure NOS Stylus. However I am tracking at 1.35g with the JICO SAS.
I liked both stylus in the M 55e but the JICO certainly took it to another level altogether as you can gather from my earlier posts.:)
Hi Grant,
I tracked at 1.7g with the Shure NOS Stylus. However I am tracking at 1.35g with the JICO SAS.
I liked both stylus in the M 55e but the JICO certainly took it to another level altogether as you can gather from my earlier posts.:)
Cheers James, I will try 1.7 as well then. :)
I think, for most systems, the 'sweet spot' (with the NOS Shure stylus) will lie somewhere between 1.6-1.8g.
Hey Jim, sounds like the Jico's a no-brainer, then! I'll have to treat my M55 to one soon, although the reality in my system is that the Denons (and SPU) remain as the 'daddies' :)
Marco.
dont really see why an elliptical tip will ruin records; think thats a misnomer. some say that about shibatas too; not been my experience
That's a pretty old thread too, from 2003. I think the internet audiophiles are smarter now than they were back then.
I think, for most systems, the 'sweet spot' (with the NOS Shure stylus) will lie somewhere between 1.6-1.8g.
Hey Jim, sounds like the Jico's a no-brainer, then! I'll have to treat my M55 to one soon, although the reality in my system is that the Denons (and SPU) remain as the 'daddies' :)
Marco.
Marco, the Denon will be another journey of discovery later in the year, however I will be very much enjoying the Shure/ JICO till then. :)
anthonyTD
27-01-2016, 09:50
I thought you already had a Jico Marco ?
Hey Jim, sounds like the Jico's a no-brainer, then! I'll have to treat my M55 to one soon, although the reality in my system is that the Denons (and SPU) remain as the 'daddies' :)
Marco.
Hi mate,
No, just a NOS Shure one. With the Jico, I wanted to let someone else be the guinea pig this time, before shelling out on one! ;)
I suspected it would be good, and glad it's worked out that way for Jim, and I'd imagine anyone else who tries one :)
Marco.
Hi mate,
No, just a NOS Shure one. With the Jico, I wanted to let someone else be the guinea pig this time, before shelling out on one! ;)
I suspected it would be good, and glad it's worked out that way for Jim, and I'd imagine anyone else who tries one :)
Marco.
The JICO SAS hasn't disappointed, in my experience. Just how much it doesn't disappoint in other cartridges is still up for debate. Wise move letting someone else be the guinea pig!!
Ha - well, it's normally me taking all the 'punts' on your behalf! As a good teacher, it's only right that I should also give my pupils the chance to excel... :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
May you go to the toilet? :D
Yes, son, you have my permission! :lol:
Marco.
And you've saved me a few quid! Replacement stylus for 2M Black £380!
Now can I go to the toilet?:lol:
May you go to the toilet? :D
Yes, son, you have my permission! :lol:
Marco.
Thanks sugar daddy:eyebrows:
Yes, I think you might need to! :D
All joking aside, this for me is what forums are all about: making new discoveries and sharing collective experiences for our mutual benefit :exactly:
It's one of the things, in my view, that AoS does best.
Marco.
I need to lay hands on my geodisc and set mine up actually. See if i like it
If anyone is considering JICO SAS for M55e just be aware that although they are JICOs replacement for an uprated N55e stylus they are so very different apart from the fact they fit the M55e cartridge.
As I found out the overhang is some way different and VTF certainly is - absolutely no more than 1.5g. I run mine at 1.35g with bottom of cartridge absolutely parallel to the record surface.
I'm sure if you purchase a JICO SAS Marco you will be absolutely anal about all these things anyway.:lol:
Would be interesting to hear how it sounds in your system. For me it is superb.
Well it's on and running
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/d571e42ab0f9d0d4910a00ba284c01ac.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/0bdddc447689670d134284b44645a2e5.jpg
Dunno what I think at moment
Currently spinning Frank. Its a nice sound for a standard mm..running perhaps a tad heavy at moment so will play with that.. Surface noise is very low which surprised me. Its not in the league of my mc but i think i could be happy with it. Think my jico at95 is better although at price it should be I guess.
Now have to consider whether to go for a shibata for this:scratch:
Decisions decisions eh
Currently spinning Frank. Its a nice sound for a standard mm..running perhaps a tad heavy at moment so will play with that.. Surface noise is very low which surprised me. Its not in the league of my mc but i think i could be happy with it. Think my jico at95 is better although at price it should be I guess.
Now have to consider whether to go for a shibata for this:scratch:
Decisions decisions eh
Hi Grant, It was the surface noise or lack of that surprised me especially coming from my very noisy shibata 2M Black. The Shure was almost silent, it doesn't get much more noisy with the JICO SAS either! This stylus profile is however even more extreme than a line contact shibata but somehow stays very quiet.:scratch:
Genius stylus if you ask me as it gives you almost everthing you could want no nasties. Not particularly difficult to set up either.
I certainly don't thin the standard M55e can compete with an MC but the JICO SAS may well!
Hi Grant, It was the surface noise or lack of that surprised me especially coming from my very noisy shibata 2M Black. The Shure was almost silent, it doesn't get much more noisy with the JICO SAS either! This stylus profile is however even more extreme than a line contact shibata but somehow stays very quiet.:scratch:
Genius stylus if you ask me as it gives you almost everthing you could want no nasties. Not particularly difficult to set up either.
I certainly don't thin the standard M55e can compete with an MC but the JICO SAS may well!
Sure...if i can use the pun. This is a brand new old stock cart never used before so i think it will open up a fair bit with some use. In fact after3/ 4 sides it is growing on me. Running at 1.85 at moment or thereabouts. With the cherry shell the whole thing is fairly light and can run it without the extra weight at rear thoughhhad to adjust arm position to acheive the right stylus geometry for my perhaps odd way of working lol. Also needed to increase anti scate bias a notch too.
Its growing on me but think it needs a few hrs on it
Some better pictures of the shure on the cherrywood headshell.. About 16 gms total weight
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/f936ee8f4e5cafb83f13e8c7180a7a53.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/b6d4d807f95141ba9415718c241cb54f.jpg
Looks good, Grant!
Much of this is down to the kind of presentation you're used to with cartridges, and thus what your ears consider as 'correct'. If you've come from the leaner, more etched and 'projected' sound of a Shibata-equipped AT, where the emphasis is more on 'crystalline clarity' and subtle detail retrieval, then an M55E is going take a little adjusting to.
To offer a wine analogy, one (the M55E) is a 'fleshy', big-boned and well-rounded Oz Shiraz, and the other (AT) more akin to a light and zesty, dry but slightly effervescent, Vin Jaune. 'Tis simply what your 'palate' prefers :)
However, the Shure will certainly need some running in from new!
Marco.
Looks good, Grant!
Much of this is down to the kind of presentation you're used to with cartridges, and thus what your ears consider as 'correct'. If you've come from the leaner, more etched and 'projected' sound of a Shibata-equipped AT, where the emphasis is more on 'crystalline clarity' and subtle detail retrieval, then an M55E is going take a little adjusting to.
To offer a wine analogy, one (the M55E) is a 'fleshy', big-boned and well-rounded Oz Shiraz, and the other (AT) more akin to a light and zesty, dry but slightly effervescent, Vin Jaune. 'Tis simply what your 'palate' prefers :)
However, the Shure will certainly need some running in from new!
Marco.
Yeah well i came straight from a mc25 fine line so it wasnt fair to expect parity. It will open up im sure in time. Its only just had lecky through it and been sitting for 50 years in a box.
I checked the stylus under a glass and it was unused.
Yup, and an MC25 is a totally different beast.
For me, (I don't know about you), but when I play vinyl, I don't want the resulting listening experience/presentation to represent a facsimile of CD, done not especially well. I want to revel in all that's good about analogue, done well; and I especially don't want to be sitting there analysing for 'hi-fi effects'...
Cartridges, such as the M55E, allow me to do that, 'relax into' the sound, and thus forget about hi-fi and just listen to the music, which for me is what it's all about :)
Marco.
He's dissing my cart:rfl:
Lol - no am urnae.... It just depends what you're looking for, and there are different 'tools' available for the job necessary, so you just select what you need to use. Simples :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-01-2016, 16:58
Ahh, ok. :)
Hi mate,
No, just a NOS Shure one. With the Jico, I wanted to let someone else be the guinea pig this time, before shelling out on one! ;)
I suspected it would be good, and glad it's worked out that way for Jim, and I'd imagine anyone else who tries one :)
Marco.
Finally found a vintage M55E body for a price I liked (~£25)!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shure-M55E-Cartridge-W-Stylus-Headshell-/321967019700
I'll get it installed and post some pics up next week when it arrives. I also found two NOS USA made stylus for my SC35C too, I'm never going to get my Denon mounted and do a proper review of The Wand at this rate. :)
Lol - too many intriguing distractions. Feel free to blame me :eyebrows:
Marco.
I'll get it installed and post some pics up next week when it arrives. I also found two NOS USA made stylus for my SC35C too, I'm never going to get my Denon mounted and do a proper review of The Wand at this rate. :)
I would like to know how the SC35C sounds compared to the M55e?
Ah, now that's a question....!
And one I could answer, but I'd need to mount my SC35C, which I haven't listened to in quite some time, onto a spare headshell, in order to re-evaluate it. I might leave that one to Dave, who'll I'm sure be more familiar with its sound, and be able to get a good handle on the differences, once he receives his M55E.
He'll probably also be hearing the SC35C at a better standard than me, as his is fitted to a rather nice Paradox body-shell :)
Marco.
Seems like the SC 35 has the same body as the M 95/V 15 II.
I would like to know how the SC35C sounds compared to the M55e?
Yeah, I can handle that no problem.
Seems like the SC 35 has the same body as the M 95/V 15 II.
All Shure carts use one of two different body types, but the components inside the bodies can be built to very different specs.
Seems like the SC 35 has the same body as the M 95/V 15 II.
Thats interesting i have V15 11 somewhere must give it a try
i have had a few V15 3's over the years and thought the 11 was the same
Thats interesting i have V15 11 somewhere must give it a try
i have had a few V15 3's over the years and thought the 11 was the same
Just found this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5xU-kHUI6A
VTF for SC35 looks a bit too much for me at 4g plus:eek:
VTF for SC35 looks a bit too much for me at 4g plus:eek:
There's a number of stylus choices for these bodies:
Shure SS35C black lettering - This is a .7 mil conical that has a very low compliance of 5 cu. This works best on a very heavy 12" broadcast arms with at least a 25g effective mass but as high as 40g. This stylus also loves long, well damped unipivots. This is about the best stylus/cart combo in existence for playing old beat up records. I find it doesn't actually need to track at 4 grams and does fine at a little under 3.
Shure SS35C white lettering - This is a .6 mil highly polished, nude conical with the same compliance as the above stylus. It handles highs a little better and also works best on a heavy arm.
JICO e007439/e007449 - This is a .6 mil bonded conical with a compliance of 12 cu. This works well on medium-high mass arms and also handles highs better than the .7 mil options.
Shure N35X - This is a .7 mil conical that tracks in the 1.5 to 3 gram range. Works great on medium mass arms like the Rega RB arms or S-shaped Japanese arms.
Pfanstiehl 779 - This is a .7 mil conical that tracks at .75 to 1.5 grams is is great for low mass arms.
JICO e007469/e007470 - JICO SAS bonded MicroLine stylus on aluminium cantilever, great for low mass arms. This combo is essentially a poor man's V15VxSAS. I've yet to buy one of these.
There's also a N35S stylus, .7 mil conical that tracks at 3 to 5 grams but I have no direct experience with it.
Hi Jim,
Dave's right. You don't have to track the SC35C at 4g. It works fine at 3g, which is much the same as an SPU. Remember that conicals have nice 'fat' tips, so record wear, with high VTFs, isn't an issue, unlike it would be with fine-lines at such forces!
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
30-01-2016, 15:54
OK, late to the party as usual, got myself one ordered to see what all the fuss is about. I remember thinking that there was something special about the old Shure carts when I bought myself a Audiotechnica headshell with AT6106 cartridge leads alongside a Shure V15 mk3 (and VN35MR) stylus. I manged to get the lot for less than £250. I really must plonk the old V15 on again for a laugh. Now which JICO stylus should I go for?
OK, late to the party as usual, got myself one ordered to see what all the fuss is about. I remember thinking that there was something special about the old Shure carts when I bought myself a Audiotechnica headshell with AT6106 cartridge leads alongside a Shure V15 mk3 (and VN35MR) stylus. I manged to get the lot for less than £250. I really must plonk the old V15 on again for a laugh. Now which JICO stylus should I go for?
Hi Andy, the JICO SAS stylus I am using has more detail retrieval than my 2M Black but without any harshness or sibilance. :) In the M55e body there is some decent bass but not as fulsome as the NOS Shure stylus that came with the M55e. The JICO SAS has its own signature and takes the Shure cartridge up a notch - probably a more modern sound but very listenable indeed.
Hi,
Thinking of trying one in my 1210, can't seem to find any for sale in the UK?
I'm running a 2m Blue the moment and curious to see if this is better.
Mike.
Theyre getting hard to find due to AoS folk snapping them up
Wakefield Turntables
30-01-2016, 17:23
Hi Andy, the JICO SAS stylus I am using has more detail retrieval than my 2M Black but without any harshness or sibilance. :) In the M55e body there is some decent bass but not as fulsome as the NOS Shure stylus that came with the M55e. The JICO SAS has its own signature and takes the Shure cartridge up a notch - probably a more modern sound but very listenable indeed.
Thanks Jim, I thought the SAS would be the way to go but being AOS it's usually some esoteric stylus that only the most hardcore will have used :eek:.
Here you go Andy,
http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1576
Listening just now after a week running in and its simply stunning in the M55e. Popped on Ladies of the Canyon Joni Mitchell and I have never heard it like this.
It sounds almost live and visceral:eek:
Probably a tad hifi for some but utterly compelling.
Marco ...
... you wrote earlier that the M55E likes a heavier arm? I only ask because I seem to recall that the advice at the time was that Shures worked best on lightweight arms. Shure don't seem to give figures for compliance, preferring something called 'trackability', but I always assumed that, with their obsession with low tracking force and high trackability, their carts must be highly compliant? :confused:
Anyway, I'm actually getting quite excited at the prospect of the sounds-of-the-seventies returning to petrat mansions.
You'll have us buying Sinclair amps, chipboard speakers and disco 'vinyls' next :D
Off now to get me some platform boots, loon flairs and big lapels :dance:
Marco ...
... you wrote earlier that the M55E likes a heavier arm? I only ask because I seem to recall that the advice at the time was that Shures worked best on lightweight arms. Shure don't seem to give figures for compliance, preferring something called 'trackability', but I always assumed that, with their obsession with low tracking force and high trackability, their carts must be highly compliant? :confused:
That only applies to things like V-15s and the 97XE, etc. The M55E (and SC35C) are a different matter and operate on alternative principles, tracking too at much higher forces. Trust me, the M55E (with NOS stylus) is much happier installed in a heavier headshell (around 12-14g), as then it will sound much more 'solid' and secure :)
Glad you've decided to take a punt. Don't expect SPU-levels of 'organicity', but the Shure may surprise you ;)
Marco.
Marco ...
... you wrote earlier that the M55E likes a heavier arm? I only ask because I seem to recall that the advice at the time was that Shures worked best on lightweight arms. Shure don't seem to give figures for compliance, preferring something called 'trackability', but I always assumed that, with their obsession with low tracking force and high trackability, their carts must be highly compliant? :confused:
The quoted dynamic compliance for the Shure M55E is 25cu. It has a mass of 6.7g.
Shure intended it to be used in arms such as the SME 3009 and 3012 (in fact SME showed one fitted to their arm in their advertisments), with which the calculated low frequency arm/cartridge resonances are 7.26Hz and 7.00Hz respectively.
I am using the M55e in a medium weight tonearm and the cartridge sounds stunning.
After a week running in it had settled down with the JICO SAS stylus. The midrange and bottom end have filled out as has the soundstage which had more depth. There is a very nice blend now between the cartridge body of the M55e and JICO SAS. I think the little motor needed running a bit after 20-30 years in a drawer. I can't check electrical performance but I can tell you the sound is stunning.
I am beginning to wonder if this is simply a better integration capacitance wise with my system? The whole sound is smoother but with just as much detail as the 2M without the harsh/ edgy sound I used to get. Again very little surface noise or clicks and pops just very quiet.
The quoted dynamic compliance for the Shure M55E is 25cu. It has a mass of 6.7g.
Shure intended it to be used in arms such as the SME 3009 and 3012 (in fact SME showed one fitted to their arm in their advertisments), with which the calculated low frequency arm/cartridge resonances are 7.26Hz and 7.00Hz respectively.
At least ive got the right arm lol... Might change the shell to one of my carbon fibre ones later as they are a bit heavier.. Mybe the at95 jico on the cherry..sure i had it on before and was superb..? Hmm i think it may have been
walpurgis
31-01-2016, 17:01
Is the compliance of the Jico stylus different to the Shure original?
Shure intended it to be used in arms such as the SME 3009 and 3012 (in fact SME showed one fitted to their arm in their advertisments)...
Interesting, and based on my experience, I'd bet that it would sound better in a 3012, than in a 3009, specifically because of its higher mass ;)
Therefore, I'd be looking to replicate the effective mass of an SME 3012, in a 9-inch arm, by using it with a heavier headshell... I'm almost certain the M55E (with NOS stylus) will sound best that way. What's the effective mass of a 3012, Barry?
Whatever figure that is, compared with the effective mass of the 9" arm you're using, simply make up the difference in the headshell. For example, if the 3012 was, say 18g, and your own 9" tonearm was, say, 12g, then simply add 6g to your headshell.
It's not an 'exact science', by any means, but it's similar to what I do when optimising a Denon DL-103 for use in a 9-inch arm, as it too, was originally designed to be used with Denon's own high-mass 12" broadcast arms, so in order to get it to 'sing', on a 9-inch arm, one has to replicate a similar overall effective mass - and that's achieved rather nicely by using it in a heavier headshell.
It certainly seems to work! :)
Marco.
14g.
I used my first M55E in a 9" SME. The second M55E came with the 12" SME I bought (well actually both came with a Thorens 124/II deck I bought) - although I have never listened to a 55E in a 12" arm.
I have a backlog of vintage fixed-coil designs I need to listen to and/or revisit: ADC 25 (each of the three stylii); the AKG P8ES; various Deccas (Mk. III, Mk. IV, Mk. V and VI), plus numerous B&O designs.
That's pretty low-mass for a 12" arm....
However, in that case, if you can replicate 14g in your 9" arm of choice, you're just about on the button, mass-wise, with the M55E :)
Marco.
Is the compliance of the Jico stylus different to the Shure original?
All JICO SAS stylus have a compliance of 21cu.
That's pretty low-mass for a 12" arm....
However, in that case, if you can replicate 14g in your 9" arm of choice, you're just about on the button, mass-wise, with the M55E :)
Marco.
The effective mass of the 9" SME (non-improved version) is 12.5g. Remember these figures include the low-mass (perforated) S2 headshell. Replacing that with something beefier will up the effective mass.
All JICO SAS stylus have a compliance of 21cu.
Is that the static or dynamic compliance, and if the latter at what frequency was it measured?
The effective mass of the 9" SME (non-improved version) is 12.5g. Remember these figures include the low-mass (perforated) S2 headshell. Replacing that with something beefier will up the effective mass.
Yup, I know. and that's the whole point, mate. However, are you absolutely sure about those figures? To me, it doesn't seem right that there's only a difference of 1.5g in effective mass between a 3009 and 3012... :hmm:
Marco.
Is that the static or dynamic compliance, and if the latter at what frequency was it measured?
That's the dynamic compliance at 10hz.
Yup, I know. and that's the whole point, mate. However, are you absolutely sure about those figures? To me, it doesn't seem right that there's only a difference of 1.5g in effective mass between a 3009 and 3012... :hmm:
Marco.
Figures taken from vinylengine.com, so not necessarily gospel (:D). However the effective mass does not scale with arm length, so that for the 12" arm will not be 4/3 times that for the 9" arm, it will be less.
Yup, mate, I get that.
However, I would definitely challenge the VE figures, as 12.5g, for a 3009, IMO is too heavy... More like 10g (including headshell), as a Jelco SA-750 is 12g, and from experience, that's a heavier arm than a 3009.
Marco.
Yup, mate, I get that.
However, I would definitely challenge the VE figures, as 12.5g, for a 3009, IMO is too heavy... More like 10g (including headshell), as a Jelco SA-750 is 12g, and from experience, that's a heavier arm than a 3009.
Marco.
Taken from the horse's mouth: http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html.
Cheers for that, lol... I'm afraid that I remain sceptical.
Marco.
Weren't the low effective mass 3009 improved and series 3 arms specifically made for Shure high compliance mm cartridges?
Indeed, which is one of the reasons why I'm fairly certain that 12.5g , for a 3009, isn't right. Let's not forget that calculating tonearm effective mass, accurately, isn't exactly straightforward...
Marco.
The effective mass of the VPI JMW 9T tonearm I use is 9.5-10. The M55e works superbly in this.
Just thought I'd mention this if folk are worried the M55e might not be compatible with their tonearm.
I must mention this tonearm is a unipivot and is tapered and internally damped.
Indeed, which is one of the reasons why I'm fairly certain that 12.5g , for a 3009, isn't right. Let's not forget that calculating tonearm effective mass, accurately, isn't exactly straightforward...
Marco.
True, I once did it for a member here who had built his own tone arm and was curious to know what the effective mass might be, but I would assume SME would know how to do it.
It is virtually impossible to provide an accurate figure, since for tone arms where the geometry differs from a straight arm tube (such as J- or S-shaped arms), the analysis is difficult. Furthermore, the effective arm mass depends on the weight of the cartridge being used, as it will change slightly with the position of the arm's counterweight.
Might add if you intend using any cart with a 3009 s2 imp and want to track above 1.5 gm then you have to use the legendary workaround:eyebrows: and a heavy cart(over about 8gm) needs workaround no 2..
no animals were hurt during this process;)
Hi,
Just bought a 97XE ( although I see the M55E seems to be the favourite now lol ) after reading this thread, do I need anything else for it to go on my 1210 Mk 5 standard arm, I don't know much about compliance, although I do kinda get it.
I'm going to buy a spare head shell to make it easier to swap carts, any decent ones I should look at to improve on the standard one already fitted to the techie arm?
Budget up to maybe £100. I did own a Yam Hsa-1 I bought from Grant, but I sold it after getting the 1210 as I couldn't get it to match the settings shown on the protractor, ouch, I've just realised I said to Grant I'd give him a heads up if I planned on selling it, oops, sorry!
Mike.
rubber duck
01-02-2016, 23:53
Mike, I use my M97xE on a Technics headshell and this works fine. Give it plenty of hours before it starts opening up although it will sound pretty good to begin with.
HSA was a fine shell... maybe a magnesium one for a sme . they are quite good and you should pick one up for about 30 ish.
Mike, I use my M97xE on a Technics headshell and this works fine. Give it plenty of hours before it starts opening up although it will sound pretty good to begin with.
Thanks, that'll help the bank balance, thanks for quick reply.
HSA was a fine shell... maybe a magnesium one for a sme . they are quite good and you should pick one up for about 30 ish.
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for one.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ADC-LMG-1-MAGNESIUM-Headshell-WITH-AT6101-PCOCC-LEADS-/351630449607?hash=item51decedbc7:g:gkkAAOSwGotWmN-D
One of you guys in the UK should buy this USA made SC35C.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272104190768?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l5999&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI272104190768.N36.S2.R3.TR10
Just bought a NOS/NIB 'USA Made' one (in Evanston) instead (given as, despite searching high and low, I can't find the one that I had):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361481616616?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/Sw1q99.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnSw1q99j)
Not bad for £48, including a NOS stylus... ;)
Once received, I'll compare it with my M55E, and if I prefer it overall, have it put into a Paradox body-shell like yours! :cool:
Look out for a full report.
Marco.
I've just had a message from the seller saying that it's been shipped! Wow, that's what you call FAST service!! :eek:
Marco.
kininigin
04-02-2016, 16:26
Just bought a NOS/NIB 'USA Made' one (in Evanston) instead (given as, despite searching high and low, I can't find the one that I had):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361481616616?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/Sw1q99.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnSw1q99j)
Not bad for £48, including a NOS stylus... ;)
Once received, I'll compare it with my M55E, and if I prefer it overall, have it put into a Paradox body-shell like yours! :cool:
Look out for a full report.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I have just put my spare SC35C in a Paradox body-shell but would just like to say a word of caution if you go ahead with it as well. When i removed the cart's body from the shell,i had 2 protrutions at the back of the cart which slid into 2 grooves either side of the shell to help seat the cart's body in the shell. Now when trying to put the removed body in the new shell,it wouldn't push all the way in due to the 2 protrutions and was about 3-5mm away from sitting flush! So i had to cut either side off to be able to fit it! Easy enough with a steady hand and a sharp craft knife.
As there was no mention of this by Dave (dmckean) i thought this was a little strange so i checked my other cart and the images dave posted of the one he modified and sure enough it was the same and didn't have the 2 protrutions! Which is perculiar as the shell has the grooves so one would assume it was designed with that in mind!
Hi Darren,
Interesting, and thanks for letting me know. However, I wouldn't be attempting the job myself, as I'd probably end up wrecking the whole thing [way too ham-fisted]! :eyebrows:
Therefore, if I do go ahead and get the Paradox shell, I'll be sending my cartridge to the seller concerned, in order for him to pot it, for an extra $30 (as advertised on his advert) :)
Not a bad buy on this NOS/NIB one though, eh? Considering that I've seen genuine 'USA made' NOS styli, on their own, going for more!
Marco.
kininigin
04-02-2016, 16:47
Ahh i see,all is good then. I do find it curious though,maybe one is a very early production and then they changed the design slighty? :scratch:
Oh the other thing i forgot to mention,if anyone else does this mod,is that the threaded holes in the paradox body are extremely close to the cart once fitted! So close in fact that i was unable the use the provided screws as the head of the screws would not pass by! Also provided screws wouldn't screw into my AT headshell,so i had to fanny about for an hour finding appropriate screws :rolleyes:
Yes a good price for sure.What happened to the one i sold/got for you? That had 2 nos stylus with it!
Nice one Marco, serious looking cartridge and a heavy tracker at 5g :eek: but I'm sure you've got the arm for it!
Advertised as a DJ cartridge I believe. :)
I bet it sounds great. Look forward to your review and possible new body?
Oh the other thing i forgot to mention,if anyone else does this mod,is that the threaded holes in the paradox body are extremely close to the cart once fitted! So close in fact that i was unable the use the provided screws as the head of the screws would not pass by! Also provided screws wouldn't screw into my AT headshell,so i had to fanny about for an hour finding appropriate screws...
Lol... That's really not good, though. The supplied kit, quite simply, should provide everything you need to do the job properly and EASILY... :rolleyes:
In that case, I might also send him the headshell I intend fitting the cartridge onto, and he can do the whole shebang (or at least he'll then know the correct screws to supply)! :exactly:
Marco.
Yes a good price for sure.What happened to the one i sold/got for you? That had 2 nos stylus with it!
I've still got the NOS styli (thank goodness), but can't find the cartridge. It'll be around somewhere, but I've got that much stuff kicking around, the question is where... That's why when this NOS/NIB one came up, I thought 'f*ck it, I'll just nab that!' :)
It'll be interesting hearing how it sounds on my Ortofon arm, as the last time I used the one you sold me, it was on my Jelco SA-750.
Marco.
kininigin
04-02-2016, 17:01
Yeah it was a bit annoying and i don't know if it's just my example that had this issue but it's a pretty big oversight if not! Actually he needs to design the Paradox the same as Shure did so you can screw in without scrapping down the body of the cart! Having 2 parallel sides doesn't work 100%
kininigin
04-02-2016, 17:08
I've still got the NOS styli (thank goodness), but can't find the cartridge. It'll be around somewhere, but I've got that much stuff kicking around, the question is where... That's why when this NOS/NIB one came up, I thought 'f*ck it, I'll just nab that!' :)
It'll be interesting hearing how it sounds on my Ortofon arm, as the last time I used the one you sold me, it was on my Jelco SA-750.
Marco.
That's good you still have a stli then. Yes that will be interesting putting it on your Ortofon!
Very early days listening to the re-bodied Shure but things sound promising. First thing i have noticed is greater seperation and definition. Also sounds maybe not as hard and a bit more natural/organic?! Only listened to a few tracks though!
Hi Jim,
Nice one Marco, serious looking cartridge and a heavy tracker at 5g :eek: but I'm sure you've got the arm for it!
Advertised as a DJ cartridge I believe.
Yes, they were always advertised as such (not that it means much), but if you look at the picture again and read the Shure document, you'll see that it says: "Shure cartridges can be used in DJ or Hi-Fi applications." Historically, M55Es were also used in DJ/professional applications, as well as in hi-fi ones :)
Also, you don't have to track the SC35C at 5g. When I used one before, I obtained best results with 3.5g VTF.
I bet it sounds great. Look forward to your review and possible new body?
No worries. It sounded pretty good the last time, so should hopefully sound even better now that I'll be using it in a superior tonearm. We'll see what happens about the new body :cool:
Marco.
Ahh i see,all is good then. I do find it curious though,maybe one is a very early production and then they changed the design slighty? :scratch:
Oh the other thing i forgot to mention,if anyone else does this mod,is that the threaded holes in the paradox body are extremely close to the cart once fitted! So close in fact that i was unable the use the provided screws as the head of the screws would not pass by! Also provided screws wouldn't screw into my AT headshell,so i had to fanny about for an hour finding appropriate screws :rolleyes:
Yes a good price for sure.What happened to the one i sold/got for you? That had 2 nos stylus with it!
Looking at mine I can see where that could be an issue. Choosing a headshell where you can mount from the top down would of course avoid the problem.
Just bought a NOS/NIB 'USA Made' one (in Evanston) instead (given as, despite searching high and low, I can't find the one that I had):
Not bad for £48, including a NOS stylus... ;)
Once received, I'll compare it with my M55E, and if I prefer it overall, have it put into a Paradox body-shell like yours! :cool:
Look out for a full report.
Marco.
I saw that one the other day but wasn't sure if it was USA made or not. I'm still not familiar enough to know which packaging they used when. I asked the seller but he never got back to me.
In researching, it seems as there's been at least 3 different bodies over the years. Shure was always making manufacturing changes.
Hi Jim,
Yes, they were always advertised as such (not that it means much), but if you look at the picture again and read the Shure document, you'll see that it says: "Shure cartridges can be used in DJ or Hi-Fi applications." Historically, M55Es were also used in DJ/professional applications, as well as in hi-fi ones :)
Also, you don't have to track the SC35C at 5g. When I used one before, I obtained best results with 3.5g VTF.
No worries. It sounded pretty good the last time, so should hopefully sound even better now that I'll be using it in a superior tonearm. We'll see what happens about the new body :cool:
Marco.
It always sounds funny now looking back in history how these cartridges M55e and the M44-7 in particular were advertised as DJ cartridges when in fact as we have found out they are more than capable of producing audiophile levels of sound quality!:)
I saw that one the other day but wasn't sure if it was USA made or not. I'm still not familiar enough to know which packaging they used when. I asked the seller but he never got back to me.
Lol.. The biggest clue is on the enclosed document, which if you look, has the Shure Evanston USA address printed on it. Therefore, the cartridge will have almost certainly been produced there! ;)
Marco.
It always sounds funny now looking back in history how these cartridges M55e and the M44-7 in particular were advertised as DJ cartridges when in fact as we have found out they are more than capable of producing audiophile levels of sound quality!:)
Maybe over 50 years ago, but lots happened in the meantime ;)
If you don't believe me, I'd appreciate you trying to get hold of an AT110E with good usable stylus and comparing with the M55E as I've done. I thought the two similar but the 110E was clearer in the bass - made the Shure sound foggy..
Maybe over 50 years ago, but lots happened in the meantime ;)
If you don't believe me, I'd appreciate you trying to get hold of an AT110E with good usable stylus and comparing with the M55E as I've done. I thought the two similar but the 110E was clearer in the bass - made the Shure sound foggy..
Something far more important though Jimbo - you use SP2's - Which vintage are they? There may be a surround-hardening issue if they're SP2/2's or later and it was only noticed a very short time ago, so SP2/3's suffer as well. Later 'R' versions don't, or aren't old enough to exhibit this I gather..
Hardened one - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8crwHIJu1ubXNPVGJ3X28za2M/view?pref=2&pli=1
Good one - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By8crwHIJu1uWlN0Y3YwdHFCd00/view?pref=2&pli=1
Apologies for thread crap, but any views on old cartridges will be coloured by this if indeed there's a problem..
It always sounds funny now looking back in history how these cartridges M55e and the M44-7 in particular were advertised as DJ cartridges when in fact as we have found out they are more than capable of producing audiophile levels of sound quality!:)
Indeed. However, much of it is a marketing thing, and so cartridges, not just from Shure, will be 'pitched' accordingly at their target market/customers.
Having listened to similar, supposedly, "DJ" cartridges from Stanton, some of which were also used for radio broadcasting, I've been aware for a long time that the best of the breed are perfectly capable for use in hi-fi applications - and indeed can not only sound great (in an 'unhindered' FUN kind of way), but also better in some respects than their so-called, 'hi-fi' counterparts! :trust:
If you ever become curious, try, for example, obtaining a Stanton 881S (or Pickering XV-15), and you'll be shocked and stunned at how good it is......
Even the old 'disco king', Stanton 500AL (which I now believe is discontinued), and was strapped onto many a Technics SL-1200, pumping out choons in various public venues, back in the day, could sound remarkably good (tracking at 'sane' VTFs), when fitted to a quality tonearm, even if it wasn't on a Technics T/T.
Indeed, the original 500AL was also used for broadcasting purposes (along with various other Stantons) in many American AM radio stations, and when partnered properly (usually fitted to high-mass Micropoise arms, on massively constructed vintage Gates and Rek-o-Kut idler T/Ts), could sound amazing, in a 'ballsy', fun/seat of your pants kind of way! And I love that type of sound :)
No, Jim, you'll find that there are a number of vintage 'professional' cartridges, which when used properly in a hi-fi context, can sound absolutely stunning, and are often inexpensive too, simply because they're WAY off the radar of your average 'hi-fi nerd' ;)
Marco.
Something far more important though Jimbo - you use SP2's - Which vintage are they? There may be a surround-hardening issue if they're SP2/2's or later and it was only noticed a very short time ago, so SP2/3's suffer as well. Later 'R' versions don't, or aren't old enough to exhibit this I gather..
Hi Dave, I am actually using the M55e with a Jico SAS stylus so quite different from standard Shure. :)
My SP2s are the originals so have different polypropylene mid/bass drivers to anything that came after and are in great condition without any visible deterioration to the rubber surrounds. They have been kept in ideal conditions and only used by myself from new since 1987!
OH brilliant - apologies for my mentioning it, but it is a huge issue for the SP1/2 and related models.
All this talk has got me looking for a US SC35C and original white-letter stylus :rolleyes:
Lol.... The bug is catching :eyebrows:
Marco.
Indeed. However, much of it is a marketing thing, and so cartridges, not just from Shure, will be 'pitched' accordingly at their target market/customers.
Having listened to similar, supposedly, "DJ" cartridges from Stanton, some of which were also used for radio broadcasting, I've been aware for a long time that the best of the breed are perfectly capable for use in hi-fi applications - and indeed can not only sound great (in an 'unhindered' FUN kind of way), but also better in some respects than their so-called, 'hi-fi' counterparts! :trust:
If you ever become curious, try, for example, obtaining a Stanton 881S (or Pickering XV-15), and you'll be shocked and stunned at how good it is......
Even the old 'disco king', Stanton 500AL (which I now believe is discontinued), and was strapped onto many a Technics SL-1200, pumping out choons in various public venues, back in the day, could sound remarkably good (tracking at 'sane' VTFs), when fitted to a quality tonearm, even if it wasn't on a Technics T/T.
Indeed, the original 500AL was also used for broadcasting purposes (along with various other Stantons) in many American AM radio stations, and when partnered properly (usually fitted to high-mass Micropoise arms, on massively constructed vintage Gates and Rek-o-Kut idler T/Ts), could sound amazing, in a 'ballsy', fun/seat of your pants kind of way! And I love that type of sound :)
No, Jim, you'll find that there are a number of vintage 'professional' cartridges, which when used properly in a hi-fi context, can sound absolutely stunning, and are often inexpensive too, simply because they're WAY off the radar of your average 'hi-fi nerd' ;)
Marco.
I must search for some of these others you have mentioned and strap them onto the VPI:)
My next experimentation with the past will be the ADC XLM MK2 improved. Think I may just get away with running this with my tonearm:scratch:
Then onto the 301.:cool:
kininigin
04-02-2016, 20:32
Looking at mine I can see where that could be an issue. Choosing a headshell where you can mount from the top down would of course avoid the problem.
I did try a different headshell that could mount from the top but then the issue was that i couldn't get the nuts on lol
Yeah, snap up that 301 I linked you to, before someone else gets it, or it's withdrawn from sale.... ;)
Marco.
Yeah, snap up that 301 I linked you to, before someone else gets it, or it's withdrawn from sale.... ;)
Marco.
It's on the way to me already! :):cool:
P.S Amazing price from 2juki.
Ah, cool! Yup, he's one of the best Jap sellers you can deal with on ebay. I think you'll rather enjoy the DL-301 :eyebrows:
Marco.
Just bought a NOS/NIB 'USA Made' one (in Evanston) instead (given as, despite searching high and low, I can't find the one that I had):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361481616616?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/Sw1q99.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnSw1q99j)
Not bad for £48, including a NOS stylus... ;)
Once received, I'll compare it with my M55E, and if I prefer it overall, have it put into a Paradox body-shell like yours! :cool:
Look out for a full report.
Well, this cartridge arrived yesterday, and I can confirm that it's a 'Made in USA' model, fitted with a stylus with the 'Shure" writing on the front in white... Just fitted it onto my 14g (excluding mounting hardware) Denon PCL-300 headshell, dialled in the recommended 4.5g, and it sounds wonderful (better than I seem to remember any of the others I've had doing)! :)
I intend to play around with the VTF and see whether there's any mileage in lowering it to 4g or less. However, this is undoubtedly another bargain Shure cartridge, and so looks set to receive the Paradox body-shell treatment, the same as Darren and Dave have done with their SC35Cs...
A bargain? Yes, undoubtedly! Better than the M55E (with NOS stylus)? Dunno yet - I need to carry out some proper comparisons, so time will tell. Off now to listen to some choons with this baby, and report back some more later :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
10-02-2016, 16:09
It's not a model of Shure I've tried Marco. I'll be interested to know what you make of it.
No worries, Geoff. I'll certainly let you know. What I can say is that it's way, WAY better than any 'DJ cartridge' I've heard - you know the typical crude variety, all 'boom and tizz', with no finesse?
This is NOTHING like that at all. It has shed loads of detail and 'balls', and no coarseness or sibilance in evidence, probably because of the quality of the stylus fitted [even tracking at a whopping 4.5g]. There's plenty to like here, in a hi-fi sense, that's for SHURE, lol...
More later! :cool:
Marco.
No worries, Geoff. I'll certainly let you know. What I can say is that it's way, WAY better than any 'DJ cartridge' I've heard - you know the typical crude variety, all 'boom and tizz', with no finesse?
I'm interested in what are these typical all boom and tizz DJ cartridges? And I'm serious, I mean most you can read about DJ-cartridges on different forums is people amazed at how nice they sound :D
Ok about 50 hours on the M55e/Jico SAS and I think it has run in. So to add to my earlier review these are a few more observations I have made on this combination.
Bass is one area I did not presume to be significant as the Jico SAS is potentially more about the top end detail but probably due to the Boron cantilever the Bass is tight, extended,tuneful, and well controlled. I was listening last night and bass lines both electronic and acoustic were very noticeable much more apparent from when I first set this cartridge up. I wonder how much of a contribution the M55e has in this area, certainly a very good marriage.
Treble detail is superb without any harshness or sibilance. It is not all uber detail and brightness but balanced and very refined. Again surface noise is very well surpressed.
Soundstage has opened up with excellent depth and transparency but maybe not quite the width of the 2M Black.
The area I feel the M55e/Jico SAS really excels at is vocals. These are exceptionally natural and refined with a full rich rendition of the singer, great insight and vividness which puts them very much in the room with you.
Finally I would say once warmed up the cartridge shows great control over dynamics and can certainly swing to the extremes with out any noticeable compression to the sound - wonderful stuff.:)
I'm interested in what are these typical all boom and tizz DJ cartridges? And I'm serious, I mean most you can read about DJ-cartridges on different forums is people amazed at how nice they sound :D
I agree, the big players in the DJ carts have always been Shure, Stanton and Ortofon. The major carts for Shure are the M447 which for decades has been praised among audiophiles for playing 45s. Then there's M44G which is the conical cousin of the M55E. Last there's the SC35C and M35X which we also recognize here as a great cart.
With Stanton it was always 500 & 400 and variations of it, which is also a nice cart and was a staple at radio stations worldwide for 3 decades.
With Ortofon it's the Concorde line which is based on the OM Pro and Pro S carts, which are also nice sounding carts. I like the Pro stylus better than any other stylus option in the OM line. It really brings out the musicality in those bodies that the higher end audiphile stylii lack.
I'm interested in what are these typical all boom and tizz DJ cartridges? And I'm serious, I mean most you can read about DJ-cartridges on different forums is people amazed at how nice they sound :D
Oh, there are some pretty shonky ones, probably mostly sounding so due to poor set-up on crappy arms, used on cheap (not Technics SL-1200) DJ T/Ts. However, the SC35C isn't one of them! :)
I've been thoroughly enjoying this cartridge, over the last few days. It's unfailingly musical and fun to listen to - just completely effortless. It probably 'boogies' just a tad more than the M55E, has slightly better bass authority, and is a smidgen crisper at the top end. The M55E is perhaps a little sweeter sounding overall. Not much in it, though...
You can certainly hear the SC35C's broadcast heritage, as it produces a lively and upfront 'radio friendly' sound, and one which is very rock solid and stable. The SC35C tracks record grooves like a limpet.
On that note, the 'sweet spot', with VTF, is definitely 4.5g, which is where it sounds most secure. Any less than that, and it can get a bit brittle and 'shouty' sounding. At that level of downforce, however, it just sounds spot on. Luckily, being a long-term SPU user, high VTFs don't scare me! :eyebrows:
Yup, it's all good... A Paradox body-shell, like Darren and Dave have fitted, will be the next move :cool:
Marco.
Interesting old article here about some of the equipment the BBC used for broadcasting, back in the day, from the BBC's engineering department: http://www.bbceng.info/Eng_Inf/EngInf_12.pdf
If you scroll down about halfway, you'll come to the section entitled: "Radio OBs New Base", where it details the equipment used by DJs on Radio One roadshows, and in there is this quote:
On stage the disc jockey has two EMT 950 turntables equipped with Shure SC35C cartridges for playing records...
:cool:
Marco.
I recall reading somewhere BBC later replaced the SC35 with the Ortofon OM Pro S, don't recall why though - maybe Shure QC after production was moved to Mexico? I could be making this up and no such thing ever happened, but I'm pretty sure the Ortofon was at least used by BBC, might just've been different application or something... Anyway SC35 has long been on my list of carts to try, but for some reason I've never got one, maybe because it's so cheap or because of the reports the new ones aren't up to par compared to the Made in USA stuff and never got around hunting for an old one... I'm trying to stick with stuff you can just buy from a store and not worry about it.
I'm using a Stanton 890 'DJ' stylus with my Pickering XLZ low inductance body myself, and really no complaints with that setup, great for saving hours on the MC and for records in less than stellar condition. Denon DL-103 comes to mind as another "DJ" cartridge, back when DJ really meant broadcasting :) I can imagine though there's plenty of later DJ cartridges around voiced for the boom and tizz, which probably would be just the thing you want when blasting house music loud in a club. Ortofon seems to have about a dozen DJ-carts in their current line up, I'm sure they all can't sound good...
Pic of the extremely small JICO SAS stylus !
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1279_zpsb9ldyhdh.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1279_zpsb9ldyhdh.jpg.html)
Yes, it's a rather frail looking thing, compared with the 'toothpick-thick' sturdiness of the NOS Shure stylus! :eek:
Still, it's how it sounds that counts... :)
Marco.
Listening now Marco, amazing stuff! The tonal quality in vocals is fabulous, probably its best feature.
The M55e can certainly swing the dynamics without loosing steam.
Hi Kai,
I recall reading somewhere BBC later replaced the SC35 with the Ortofon OM Pro S...
Yes, I heard that too, and I suspect you're right, although I'm not sure exactly why they changed over.
Anyway SC35 has long been on my list of carts to try, but for some reason I've never got one, maybe because it's so cheap or because of the reports the new ones aren't up to par compared to the Made in USA stuff and never got around hunting for an old one... I'm trying to stick with stuff you can just buy from a store and not worry about it.
Yeah I know what you mean about the last bit - and Finland isn't exactly known as being a 'Mecca' for audio gear!
However, having listened to this 'USA made' Shure SC35C and stylus for a few days now, I can confirm that, when partnered and set up properly, it is rather special, and sonically, punches way above its weight - but it NEEDS a high-mass arm (and one able to effortlessly dial in 4.5g VTF+, including applying the required amount of anti-skate), in order for the cartridge to perform optimally, as was intended, in the BBC arm made for it, or in an EMT.
I'd love to pop an SC35C on the likes of a Garrard TPA-12 (which I just LOVE the look of):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/QlX57L.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plQlX57Lj)
As such, the SC35C should only be used with arms of that ilk (or their nearest modern equivalents), and on T/Ts with enough 'drive power', in order to cope with such heavy tracking, without the effects of stylus drag becoming a factor. In that respect, only torquey D/Ds, idlers or belt-drives, powered by large motors and PSUs, need apply. However, the key to the SC35C's magic lies in its use with a heavy arm, and much like the Denon DL-103, it positively loves MASS!
I'm using a Stanton 890 'DJ' stylus with my Pickering XLZ low inductance body myself, and really no complaints with that setup, great for saving hours on the MC and for records in less than stellar condition. Denon DL-103 comes to mind as another "DJ" cartridge, back when DJ really meant broadcasting...
The Stanton/Pickering combo should sound really nice. I'm quite a big fan of the better vintage Stantons and Pickerings, and of course the DL-103. I guess that the big, bold and fun 'broadcast sound' is just right up my street! I think that the low-compliance/high VTF/professional T/T route, with vinyl replay, just suits my ears and sonic proclivities :)
I can imagine though there's plenty of later DJ cartridges around voiced for the boom and tizz, which probably would be just the thing you want when blasting house music loud in a club. Ortofon seems to have about a dozen DJ-carts in their current line up, I'm sure they all can't sound good...
Yes, there are a number of them that sound, erm, 'less than ideal', shall we say! The better vintage ones are where it's at :cool:
Marco.
Excellent thread on VE on the subject of the SC35C (where I note that 'our Dave' is already contributing ;)): http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41529
A couple of key quotes:
From my point of view, the real opportunity here lies in the original spec SC35C. A decent performing MM conical, supporting a relatively high VTF and heavy arm. That's the thing of merit and beauty, which is at risk of being overlooked, I figure. That's what you can't obtain with SAS substitutions.
Personally I see merit in 3-5g tracking with a quality MM conical. I use this configuration for some of my collection, and it sounds right. Currently not with a SC35C, I should say. It does not wear, in fact I suspect less shredding and clogging versus fine line styli on certain period masterings and pressings. I would not consider tracking fineline geometry styli at such VTFs, BTW, because of wear concerns. And besides, high-VTF-fineline-styli combos don't exist, perhaps exactly because of this. But decent conicals, I have accepted as not damaging, perhaps even preferred, even at such VTFs. On the strength of this thread, I'd consider and look out for an SC35C to use in original form.
Besides, this configuration is exactly how vinyl programme material from certain periods was intended to be played. It was the norm. And in its way, the SC35C has its place there. And that's what you just can't get when trying to create a V15/SAS, which no doubt has its own merits.
I agree, a single arm is unlikely to suit both a standard SC35C setup and a V15/SAS, so the swap in/out substitution idea is probably a non-starter.
Indeed, which is why I won't be going down the Jico route, with the SC35C. It's 'right' just the way it is, and delivering its 'magic' in spades! :)
And from vinyl.junkee:
Used for all vinyl replay by the British Broadcasting Corporation from the early seventies until the seedy takeover ousted vinyl, BBC Engineering carried out extensive tests over a period of time on the SC35C before using it, to ensure that it came up to their (at that time) very high standard in terms of sound quality, robustness and low record wear, 'cue burn' in particular. To work properly each channel should be loaded with a capacitance of 450pf, which typically means adding 220pf to the preamp input (both channels). Correctly loaded this cartridge gives very fine sound quality - it is actually the professional version of the esteemed V15. Back in the early eighties we AB tested this against other professional cartridges including the Denon 103 coil and the Shure wiped the floor with all of them! We had a Kisiki Blue moving coil as a reference and there was no audible difference between this and the SC35C, which tracking at near 5 gm would have been kinder to records. Now of course all this was many years ago and today it is a very different story. You can still buy an SC35C but it is a very different animal from the original model from Evanston. I am very fortunate in having 3 USA SC35Cs from the late seventies with a couple of spare original stylii plus a V15IIIHE and the sound of the new Mexico DJ ones is absolutely nowhere near the quality of the broadcast originals. If you want to evaluate one - try and get an original US model, it will have USA printed on the body above the pins. The replacement stylus is a problem - don't go for one with 'Shure' printed in black on the front - it won't be a fake, but the quality will be so different from the earlier USA ones printed in white, sorry to go on at length here, but I am a big fan of these cartridges. Just one last thing - conical stylus playing at 4.5 gm! Shock horror I hear you cry - not a bit of it, much better than 2 gm with an elliptical stylus. I have loads of LPs played hundreds nay thousands of times and none have any trace of wear, in fact that bit of extra weight is ideal for dislodging minute particles of dried spittle which would cause a lighter cartridge to stick and in an EMT 929 arm they sound amazing!
Does anyone understand what he means by the bit I've highlighted in blue, in terms of how exactly one would do that, and crucially, what effect it would likely have on the sound?
The SC35C sounds superb, through the Croft, as it is (with no tonal anomalies I can detect), but if further improvements could be gained by doing what he recommends, then I'd look into it.
Marco.
Excellent thread on VE on the subject of the SC35C (where I note that 'our Dave' is already contributing ;)): http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41529
A couple of key quotes:
Indeed, which is why I won't be going down the Jico route, with the SC35C. It's 'right' just the way it is, and delivering its 'magic' in spades! :)
And from vinyl.junkee:
Does anyone understand what he means by the bit I've highlighted in blue, in terms of how exactly one would do that, and crucially, what effect it would likely have on the sound?
The SC35C sounds superb, through the Croft, as it is (with no tonal anomalies I can detect), but if further improvements could be gained by doing what he recommends, then I'd look into it.
Marco.
Most phono preamps have about 220pf of capacitance internally, though some newer ones have more like 100pf. To get close to the 450pf that's recommended, from your headshell leads to the ends of your phono cables should measure 200pf or more. Most of the time this is the case unless you're running with very short phono leads.
How will this affect sound? Not all that much. I used to be able to adjust capacitance on the fly with a dial on a previous phono stage and it was really difficult to hear a 100pf difference. Only when I'd start at the very low end and switch to the very high end of the dial could I hear anything at all.
Also, the low impedance and inductance values of the SC35C generator actually make it less sensitive to sub-optimal loading.
Hi Dave,
Interesting...
Most phono preamps have about 220pf of capacitance internally, though some newer ones have more like 100pf. To get close to the 450pf that's recommended, from your headshell leads to the ends of your phono cables should measure 200pf or more. Most of the time this is the case unless you're running with very short phono leads.
When you say "phono leads", do you mean the tonearm cable, coming from my turntable, or (perhaps also) something else? My tonearm cable is 1.5m long.
How will this affect sound? Not all that much. I used to be able to adjust capacitance on the fly with a dial on a previous phono stage and it was really difficult to hear a 100pf difference. Only when I'd start at the very low end and switch to the very high end of the dial could I hear anything at all.
By which mechanism was that possible: the use of in-line resistors? How would I, for example, without such a facility on my phono stage, adjust capacitance, and how would one measure it - or indeed measure what value exists at present? :)
Marco.
Firebottle
13-02-2016, 06:46
the use of in-line resistors?
No it's capacitors you need to add Marco, and they need to be added in parallel with the phono input.
Typical polystyrene http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/m/mZ0qrUjhKdEMk4xrJzEe74A/140.jpg
One of the easiest ways is to have additional loading sockets connected to the inputs and mount the capacitors into phono plugs.
To measure the existing value you need a capacitance meter or study the circuit diagram/ fitted components.
:)
Hi Dave,
Interesting...
When you say "phono leads", do you mean the tonearm cable, coming from my turntable, or (perhaps also) something else? My tonearm cable is 1.5m long.
By which mechanism was that possible: the use of in-line resistors? How would I, for example, without such a facility on my phono stage, adjust capacitance, and how would one measure it - or indeed measure what value exists at present? :)
Marco.
Yes Marco, the tonearm cable plus the leads on your headshell. You should measure the total capacitance of this (or have someone do it for you). It's very useful to know when loading MM cartridges. While the SC35C isn't very sensitive to loading, other carts such as the M97xE in the thread title are very sensitive. Getting the most out of a cart like that involves careful loading.
British high fidelity
13-02-2016, 07:25
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160213/eeb53faef66ae46849ec2d324c6bc07e.jpghere is my capatence mod that Alan (firebottle) recommended for my brightness issue i had with my ortofon cartridges, I actually run them of a sector for adjustability but as Alan says these can just be put onto the board, if! You know what your doing
British high fidelity
13-02-2016, 07:26
And trust me the added capatence makes a big difference
Simply put capacitive loading with MM cartridges affects treble response - the lower the capacitance the higher in frequency the 'peak' will be and the more extended the treble response. With higher capacitance the peak moves lower in frequency, as does the cut off that happens after the peak. There's also cantilever resonances to account for, so the optimal loading for a cartridge depends on a combination of it's electrical properties and the resonances of the cantilever. Some carts will sound more neutral with high capacitance, while others will prefer low. Most Audio Technica cartridges for example are notorious for sounding very bright and harsh when there's too much capacitance.
Most MMs with high capacitive load will not have good treble extension beyond 15kHz or so. Typical phono stage input capacitance is 100-220pF, headshell/internal tonearm cabling will usually be in the 40-100pF range I think and interconnects typically 50-100pF per metre.. so for most people 200-400pF is a realistic figure, while going under 200 might take some effort. You can't take away capacitance, but you can add it easily - longer cable, or 'loading plugs' with y-cables in parallel to the phono stage input. While small changes in capacitance aren't that big a deal usually, it does really matter overall - if you compare something like an AT95E with 150-200pF capacitance and then switch to 500-600pF, enjoyable and neutral becomes screetchy bright and yet totally lacking in air.
MC cartridges behave differently, they are mostly insensitive to capacitance, because the low inductance means the cut-off frequency will be well outside the audible range (often something like 200kHz) so they are easier to load in that sense, but also give you less wiggle room (which I personally take as a good thing).
Simply put capacitive loading with MM cartridges affects treble response - the lower the capacitance the higher in frequency the 'peak' will be and the more extended the treble response. With higher capacitance the peak moves lower in frequency, as does the cut off that happens after the peak. There's also cantilever resonances to account for, so the optimal loading for a cartridge depends on a combination of it's electrical properties and the resonances of the cantilever. Some carts will sound more neutral with high capacitance, while others will prefer low. Most Audio Technica cartridges for example are notorious for sounding very bright and harsh when there's too much capacitance.
Most MMs with high capacitive load will not have good treble extension beyond 15kHz or so. Typical phono stage input capacitance is 100-220pF, headshell/internal tonearm cabling will usually be in the 40-100pF range I think and interconnects typically 50-100pF per metre.. so for most people 200-400pF is a realistic figure, while going under 200 might take some effort. You can't take away capacitance, but you can add it easily - longer cable, or 'loading plugs' with y-cables in parallel to the phono stage input. While small changes in capacitance aren't that big a deal usually, it does really matter overall - if you compare something like an AT95E with 150-200pF capacitance and then switch to 500-600pF, enjoyable and neutral becomes screetchy bright and yet totally lacking in air.
MC cartridges behave differently, they are mostly insensitive to capacitance, because the low inductance means the cut-off frequency will be well outside the audible range (often something like 200kHz) so they are easier to load in that sense, but also give you less wiggle room (which I personally take as a good thing).
Thanks for that explanation Kai. You have put the science capacitance loading very eloquently and I now understand very clearly how this affects MM cartridge performance.
I am glad you also mentioned MC cartridge lack of sensitivity as I was unaware of this.
Thanks for that chaps, most interesting... However, would I be right in saying then that playing around with capacitance merely alters the tonal balance/presentation of a cartridge, and thus what you hear in that respect?
If so, as with the SC35C in the equation, the sound I'm getting is neither too dull or too bright (seems spot on), there would likely be little gained by mucking around with fitting capacitors. Furthermore, being a user of multiple different cartridges, all with varying sonic and electrical requirements, I'd be loathe to do anything to my preamp that was 'fixed'.
If I were to experiment properly with capacitance, then it would make sense to fit another phono input onto the Croft (perhaps switchable in value), which facilitates applying different levels of capacitance to the partnering cartridge. However, given that at the moment I'm not exactly struggling to get a good sound from any of the cartridges I use, there seems little mileage in doing that.
One point I would dispute of Kai's is that you can't "take away capacitance"... Well, you can, if you employ the use of lower capacitance cables than those that are currently fitted! ;)
I've heard the benefits of that in the main areas of my system, particularly when I use my Goldpoint passive preamp, which responds best to short cable lengths of very low capacitance, and that's why I only use Klotz MC-5000 or Belden 1800F, both of which are super-low cap cables :cool:
Marco.
Thanks for that chaps, most interesting... However, would I be right in saying then that playing around with capacitance merely alters the tonal balance/presentation of a cartridge, and thus what you hear in that respect?
If so, as with the SC35C in the equation, the sound I'm getting is neither too dull or too bright (seems spot on), there would likely be little gained by mucking around with fitting capacitors. Furthermore, being a user of multiple different cartridges, all with varying sonic and electrical requirements, I'd be loathe to do anything to my preamp that was 'fixed'.
If I were to experiment properly with capacitance, then it would make sense to fit another phono input onto the Croft (perhaps switchable in value), which facilitates applying different levels of capacitance to the partnering cartridge. However, given that at the moment I'm not exactly struggling to get a good sound from any of the cartridges I use, there seems little mileage in doing that.
One point I would dispute of Kai's is that you can't "take away capacitance"... Well, you can, if you employ the use of lower capacitance cables than those that are currently fitted! ;)
I've heard the benefits of that in the main areas of my system, particularly when I use my Goldpoint passive preamp, which responds best to short cable lengths of very low capacitance, and that's why I only use Klotz MC-5000 or Belden 1800F, both of which are super-low cap cables :cool:
Marco.
Regarding capacitance and cable length Marco, do you tend to run a short cable between your head amp /SUT from the TT, then use a longer one from the SUT to the Croft preamp when you use these pieces of equipment? Or the other way round?
Or do you use cables of same length?
One point I would dispute of Kai's is that you can't "take away capacitance"... Well, you can, if you employ the use of lower capacitance cables than those that are currently fitted! ;)
Good catch :)
I think if you like what you hear then messing around with the loading might not really be worth it. On the other hand, the parts to modify a phono stage for adjustable loading don't cost much, and with most stages it's a simple job for someone with good soldering skills. If going that route, it would be a good idea to also make the resistive loading adjustable, both are handy features to have if you use a lot of different MM carts.
Hi Jim,
Regarding capacitance and cable length Marco, do you tend to run a short cable between your head amp /SUT from the TT, then use a longer one from the SUT to the Croft preamp when you use these pieces of equipment? Or the other way round?
Or do you use cables of same length?
Cables of the same length, mate. I keep my SUT and head amp very near the preamp, so 0.5m lengths are used. It's only the tonearm lead from the T/T that is longer, at 1.5m :)
Marco.
I think if you like what you hear then messing around with the loading might not really be worth it. On the other hand, the parts to modify a phono stage for adjustable loading don't cost much, and with most stages it's a simple job for someone with good soldering skills. If going that route, it would be a good idea to also make the resistive loading adjustable, both are handy features to have if you use a lot of different MM carts.
Yup, I'd agree with all of that :)
Marco.
If your phono stage happens to be dual mono, adding a balance control is easy and useful too.
Hi Jim,
Cables of the same length, mate. I keep my SUT and head amp very near the preamp, so 0.5m lengths are used. It's only the tonearm lead from the T/T that is longer, at 1.5m :)
Marco.
Great, thanks for that as I need to order another cable and needed to know what length:thumbsup:
If your phono stage happens to be dual mono, adding a balance control is easy and useful too.
Good point and totally agree - in fact should be a mandatory feature in all phono stages! In the phono stage I use it's implemented so that gain is adjustable for one of the channels - it's an op amp design, right channel has normal resistor in the op-amp circuit to determine gain, but left channel has a resistor + trim pot (adjustable through the bottom of the unit), giving adjustment range of about -1.5dB to + 1.5dB - enough to get all but the most skewed cartridges into balance.
Slight channel imbalances in cartridges (and styli) are so common, it's odd so few phonostages seem to have any kind of balance setting. Or preamps for that matter, even for sources other than phono I don't think balance setting is one of those things you should sacrifice on the altar of ultimate audiophile bliss - just implement it well and make it bypassable for those neurotic/very keenly hearing individuals that think it does something bad for the sound.
And while we're at it, let's not forget the mono switch :D
kininigin
14-02-2016, 21:01
Indeed, which is why I won't be going down the Jico route, with the SC35C. It's 'right' just the way it is, and delivering its 'magic' in spades! :)
This is exactly why i haven't gone for a Jico SAS! Despite having ample chances to get one. It just sounds right as it is and i've always had this nagging feeling that the balance would be upset. I still may get one though just to satisfy my curiousity.I also haven't been too fussed on trying to get a 'better' cart since i first heard the SC35C. It doesn't leave you wanting more and it just plays music in an enjoyable addictive manner.
I'd love to pop an SC35C on the likes of a Garrard TPA-12 (which I just LOVE the look of):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/QlX57L.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plQlX57Lj)
Marco.
I bought pne of those a few years ago i had plans to use it with the m3d, they are very nice looking tonearms with a classy vintage look... i just got it out to have a look at, its a nice thing and would be a perfect match with a 301, i will have to try it.
I did use a goldring L70 arm with the m3d, to be honest it did not sound much worse than my FR with the m3d it has the alloy headshell, i also have a goldring g60 arm, apart from a very different shape and one piece casting, the spring balance system does not look much different to that in the L70, i may make a few plinths this year and set up a few decks with these arms, they all have a nice classic look and will match the older decks i have
Not sure about 4 or 5 gm tracking weight....seems a bit vicious to me, and my arm couldnt provide it easily
Not vicious with a spherical stylus, mate... Nice big fat tip that doesn't gouge yer grooves! Now if it were a Shibata doing the 4-5g... :eek: :wowzer: :nono:
Marco.
I bought pne of those a few years ago i had plans to use it with the m3d, they are very nice looking tonearms with a classy vintage look... i just got it out to have a look at, its a nice thing and would be a perfect match with a 301, i will have to try it.
Nice one, Steve. I love that arm to bits - pure retro to the max! :drool:
Like you say, with an M3D it would rock, and I suspect too, with an SC35C, or a DL-103....
Marco.
Not sure about 4 or 5 gm tracking weight....seems a bit vicious to me, and my arm couldn't provide it easily
4 to 5 grams may sound a lot, but the SC35C has a spherical stylus, so the contact pressure suffered by the record is roughly the same as that imposed by an elliptical tip with a VTF of 2 to 2.5 gram.
spendorman
16-02-2016, 22:59
I like the old Shure cartridges, I have several, but I have a couple of Philips GP cartridges, the higher end ones, these are fantastic, and are very rarely mentioned.
I like the old Shure cartridges, I have several, but I have a couple of Philips GP cartridges, the higher end ones, these are fantastic, and are very rarely mentioned.
The GP 412 (?) is in use by at least one member here, and from memory, it received very good reviews at the time (mid '70s). But you're right, Philips cartridges are not on the radar as far as audiophiles are concerned.
walpurgis
16-02-2016, 23:16
The GP 412 (?) is in use by at least one member here, and from memory, it received very good reviews at the time (mid '70s). But you're right, Philips cartridges are not on the radar as far as audiophiles are concerned.
Yup. They were highly regarded in the early seventies. Hardly heard of now. I've always fancied trying a GP412, but not got my hands on one.
spendorman
16-02-2016, 23:42
Yup. They were highly regarded in the early seventies. Hardly heard of now. I've always fancied trying a GP412, but not got my hands on one.
Yes, GP412 and I think a GP-422, fortunately, I have spare new styli for both. I wonder who made these cartridges for Philips.
walpurgis
17-02-2016, 00:19
Yes, GP412 and I think a GP-422, fortunately, I have spare new styli for both. I wonder who made these cartridges for Philips.
I'd think that at that time, Philips made them themselves. They seemed rather proud of actually manufacturing all of their products, probably up to the mid/late seventies (as far as I know).
Someone should just buy this now before it gets bid on.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-M55E-CARTRIDGE-STYLUS-STANTON-WOOD-BOX-PHONO-TURNTABLE-PHONOGRAPH-/201526089925
Come in a nice Stanton box.
The Black Adder
19-02-2016, 15:43
I have a Goldring G800, in fact I bought it from Marco. It has been retipped and a nickle cantilever fitted by NWA (North West Analogue) - Together on a AT MG10 magnesium headshell the sound is spot on.
Compared with the original stylus the nickle cantilever it's an upgrade well worth the £250 that NWA charged but alas, they no longer do it for this cart :(. I can't remember but someone here has had the ruby cantilever fitted to the G800 and so I can say with absolute confidence that the G800 is well worth a listen and a superb cart to upgrade. It's a 'proper' cart. If you want drive with a good deal of grunt then look no further.
I've run it for a while now but due to an upgrade I feel it may be time to move her on!
Scored big time this weekend. Found a USA made SC35C and 6 NOS USA made SS35C styli on Ebay. I guess I'm taken care of for a long time.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141908153109
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-SS35C-Stylus-needle-Original-new-6-/291684574866?nma=true&si=irDFvuuxecV1gKVHtoV9%252FFS2Xcc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Lol... Well done, Dave. Before that lot wears out, you can now even become 'DJ Dave', and do some scratching! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I figure I'm set for the next 27 years or so. They'll probably be beaming music directly into our brains by then anyway.
I bought one with the intention of fitting the Jico SAS stylus but..........
$225 plus postage and taxes no way now.
97Xe up for sale later today :(
Having equipped the VPI TT with a Denon 301 MC I have decided that the best place for my Shure M55e /Jico SAS will be on the Lenco GL75.
Funnily enough it will almost be a full circle as the Lenco came equipped with a M44-7. Pretty standard for 1970,s Lenco GL75 set up.
I have a feeling the M55e / Jico SAS will turbo charge the Lenco. Will report back when the surgery has been done.:)
walpurgis
28-02-2016, 15:49
I'm assuming the L75 has its original arm. If so the M55E should be perfectly happy in it.
I'm assuming the L75 has its original arm. If so the M55E should be perfectly happy in it.
Absolutely Geoff. I just need to pop some Desmo V blocks in.
Although the M55e sounded great on the VPI I did notice some speaker cone wobble - maybe a mechanical capacitance issue?
If anyone is in the market to buy a 97Xe I'd do it sooner rather than later.
I'm now wishing I hadn't sold my one so quick :doh:
Hint, hint.... ;)
After sorting the V blocks in the Lenco tonearm I fitted the Shure M55e/ Jico SAS cartridge combo to it. As Geoff and a few others predicted it was very happy in the GL75 tonearm, in fact more than happy.
I have been using this for a week or so and it is simply the best MM I have heard. It performs far better than it did in the VPI 9T tonearm without any compliance issues. The Lenco has elevated the performance to something up there with the best I have heard and makes me question my pursuit of MC designs. It is so musically satisfying in every way, I can't really find any fault with it.
I may have a listen to the NOS Shure stylus which came with the M55e sometime soon but the Jico SAS is so good I don't really want to take it off. I have got to a stage now where I feel I have reached mission accomplished with MM cartridges and no longer feel I need to pursue any other designs. I have no itch to scratch anymore, its just a great pity Jico no longer make these super stylus!
However I have a plan when it finally wears out which may be more than good enough to replace it. :eyebrows:
These old Shure cartridges are truly great designs with real audiophile ability and will show a clean pair of heels to many modern designs.
Excellent, Jim! :)
I could've predicted that the Shure would've been happier in the Lenco, as if you remember, I said that the former likes some mass?
Well, the Lenco arm is, I would imagine, notably heavier (especially the headshell - the important bit) than the arm on your VPI, and then you've got the 'gimballed vs. unipivot' thing to consider, not to mention with the T/Ts themselves, belt-drive vs. idler! ;)
Muchos variables, muchacho... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Excellent, Jim! :)
I could've predicted that the Shure would've been happier in the Lenco, as if you remember, I said that the former likes some mass?
Well, the Lenco arm is, I would imagine, notably heavier (especially the headshell - the important bit) than the arm on your VPI, and then you've got the 'gimballed vs. unipivot' thing to consider, not to mention with the T/Ts themselves, belt-drive vs. idler! ;)
Muchos variables, muchacho... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Absolutely Bang on there Marco.:)
Cant believe how much better it sounds on the Lenco compared to the VPI, its like a different cartridge! I am going to try a 103 in the near future on the Lenco, not sure if it will better the M55e/Jico SAS though. From comments on Lencoheaven the tonearm works OK with the 103.
That will be an interesting one.
I only wished I knew about the M55e/Jico SAS combo years before.:rolleyes: I've stopped itching to hear other carts now and just think about more records that I can buy. Let's hope that Jico or some other company come up with a replacement.
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