Consider the dear old Shure 97xe...it's £70! And it's great. [Archive]

DSJR

28-08-2015, 19:08

Yeah, but all the vinyl numpty 'gurus' say that Shures are crap, so they are, aren't they? They just use their ears and what they 'think' is better.

Interesting how record companies often checked their test pressings on Shure V15 III's and Decca classical discs sounded amazing via a V15 VMR, the venue acoustic beautifully realised by this model.

Anyway, for around fifty notes or a little more, there really isn't much at the price to touch it now, as the AT120E is a ton, cheap Nagaokas won't be as refined due to over-pricing them these days and the Sumiko Pearl and Grado's are dull. Denon have more than doubled the UK price of the DL110 too and this is probably the nearest 'quality' competitor (I don't think the Acutex models are made any more?)

Best shut up about it otherwise Shure will start pricing the thing at £300......

By the way, an SAS stylus is reported to really take this model very high up the food chain and I believe measurements back up the positive sonic vibes about it for hf clarity and extension enhancements.

paskinn

28-08-2015, 20:41

Just to add a word of caution about the hidden problems with buying ''high end'' cartridges. Noel Keywood reviews the new Ortofon A 95 in the recent ''Hi Fi World.'' It is, of course, another rave review. However, casually inserted into the middle of the long text is a single sentence which says that the first two samples of the A95 provided for review both had to be sent back, because they were faulty. That's two out of three samples with faults...and we can't know how many faulty samples went to customers, at £3,750 a pop.
Only today a serious dealer in pricey cartridges remarked to me that with some well-known makes, (not Ortofon) every sample sounds a bit different. I've found a lot of sample variation among expensive cartridges in the past, which is another reason I like low-priced but seriously good cartridges.
I'm certainly not saying that there aren't good cartridges out there at high prices, but it's a bit of a lottery really. And I'm not much of a gambler.

walpurgis

28-08-2015, 21:20

Never had a dodgy Japanese cartridge!

Beverast

28-08-2015, 22:18

struth

28-08-2015, 22:24

I have found the AT95e to also be a bit of a bargain at under 30 quid. Been testing it out this evening on headphones and am surprised at how well it performs. 30 quid is less than a night out on the toon.

Put one of these on your at95 and watch it go:eyebrows:

http://www.turntableneedles.com/Audio-Technica-ATN95E-ATN3400-Type-JICO-Shibata-Stylus--our-Needle-710-DSH_p_3721.html

here's mine http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/AQfDAG.jpg

Tea24

29-08-2015, 07:55

I can confirm that the Jico SAS stylus for the 97xE is a great step up. On my Lenco through Quad 66/606 to Kef 104/2s it really sings.:)

Lynster

29-08-2015, 08:42

I now have 3 Shure cartridges with SAS styli, an M91, M95 and M97xE. Love the SAS in all cases for its extra detail and refinement but I agree with the OP that the humble M97xE standard stylus is really, really good providing you let it really settle in (at least 20+hrs and perhaps double that IME) before judging it. Sure the SAS stylus (again IMO) is ultimately better but other than being a touch recessed in the highs, the standard stylus is still very musical. The 95 with an HE (non SAS JICO) stylus is extremely good sounding as well.:)

One thing I have found is that one needs to match the cartridge with suitable capacitance however for best results. I use a total capacitance of about 260pF with the 97, 380pF with the 95 and 500pf or so with the 91. :eyebrows:

Beavis

01-09-2015, 13:20

Struth, is there any difference between the Turntableneedles Shibata and the one sold by LPGear as their "SA" replacement for the AT95 stylus?

Kvaal

01-09-2015, 13:59

My best advise is to get an old Shure, late sixties/early seventies, without plastic on the housing. Then you can fit different styli on it.

Buy this needle, and find it to be all you need:

http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=1017

Eats AT 95 for breakfast!

rubber duck

03-09-2015, 17:32

I've used the Shure is preference to £4000 cartridges.

Despite Peter's endorsements, I'm afraid the M97xE will remain one of hi-fi's best kept secrets because it's too ugly and as noted, does not have the rising HF response of MCs that appeals to hi-fi buffs. Having previously had (expensive) MCs (Supex, Koetsu, Transfig, Ortofons) I have no desire to return to a LOMC set up, not least because the equally fabulous Croft 25 phono only does MM.

Floyddroid

03-09-2015, 20:47

Of all the cartridges i have owned expensive and cheap i can honestly say that i have never heard a bad sounding Shure cartridge. I can see what people see in them. They just play music well and don't require a mortgage.:goodthread:

Marco

04-09-2015, 07:46

I would definitely agree with that, Steve. They have a well-judged overall balance, which is unlikely to 'offend'. As such, they're a safe choice. I think that, and their keen pricing, is the reason for their success. Trouble is, IME, they don't really get your 'juices flowing', except for the venerable old M3D, which is a 'ballsy', groovy-sounding bitch! :dance:

One Shure cartridge I want to try soon, as a result of applying some lateral thinking, is an M44G. This is billed as being a 'DJ cartridge', but has lower-output and VTF requirements than normal, tracking at 0.75 to 1.5 gram, instead of the usually 'insane' 4-5g of many other such designs.

I read an article about a Japanese audiophile's, circa £30k system, and on his T/T (a Pioneer Exclusive P3a) was a 'lowly' M44G, which he said when mounted on a quality T/T and tonearm sounded wonderful, and was one which often 'escaped' the thinking of audiophiles, because it's dismissed simply as a 'DJ cartridge'. He also mentioned that it responds well to the fitting of 'posh', aftermarket, styli.

Well, as they cost next to nothing, I intend to try one soon and report back on the results! :)

Marco.

paskinn

04-09-2015, 09:03

Despite Peter's endorsements, I'm afraid the M97xE will remain one of hi-fi's best kept secrets because it's too ugly and as noted, does not have the rising HF response of MCs that appeals to hi-fi buffs. Having previously had (expensive) MCs (Supex, Koetsu, Transfig, Ortofons) I have no desire to return to a LOMC set up, not least because the equally fabulous Croft 25 phono only does MM.

Interesting....I use the Croft RIAA and it is rather fine; for £500 it is , in audio terms, exceptionally well priced too. As you say, the Shure is ugly, doesn't sound 'shiny' and only costs £70. That is never the stuff of legend!
Oddly enough, I'm not someone who only likes low-priced stuff. I sometimes fancy quite costly things too. But always, always, I want to feel I have had true value for my money.
As I think we have all learnt (the hard way) there is no obvious correlation between audio quality and price, above a certain basic level.
As for the Shure 44, I can't comment; but another somewhat curious belief among some audio guys is that only old things are any good.....I sometimes use speakers from the 1930s ( Voigt Corner Horns) but I like the best of the modern stuff too. There are no fixed 'rules.'
Anarchy prevails, and long may it remain so.

Clive197

04-09-2015, 09:26

I must admit, I do very much regret selling my V15III. It was sitting in the back of a drawer for many years (I was having a love affair with CD at the time). It only had about 50-60 hrs on it. Sold it on e-Bay for 90 sovs about 5-6 yrs ago. Muppet!

Marco

04-09-2015, 09:33

As for the Shure 44, I can't comment; but another somewhat curious belief among some audio guys is that only old things are any good.....I sometimes use speakers from the 1930s ( Voigt Corner Horns) but I like the best of the modern stuff too. There are no fixed 'rules.'
Anarchy prevails, and long may it remain so.

Indeed. I think the difference though, amongst discerning audio guys, is that their opinion is not 'only old things are any good', but rather that 'the BEST old things are often better than new things' - and, when suitably fettled (if necessary), that is where lies true 'SPPV' :)

That's certainly my view (and at the core of the AoS ethos), as there is far more 'old junk' out there, in terms of audio equipment, than genuinely good stuff, but when you discover some of that, then the results are often truly exceptional.

The M44 is an interesting one, and way off the 'radar' of audiophiles, for obvious reasons, but that's what intrigues me about trying it, as I enjoy thinking outside the box and, as a result, often discovering hidden audio gems!

Marco.

walpurgis

04-09-2015, 09:37

Have you tried a good ADC Marco?

Marco

04-09-2015, 09:58

Not for years, Geoff, but I do rate them [used and optimised in the right set-up] :)

Marco.

walpurgis

04-09-2015, 10:16

Not for years, Geoff, but I do rate them [used and optimised in the right set-up] :)

Marco.

I don't have an ADC set up at the moment, but each time I use one, I'm always amazed at how good they are. It's a seriously musical sound, with poise and weight and the transparency and detail are up there with the MCs.

Must rig my 10E Mk.IV up again actually. That's always a rewarding listen.

Geoff101

04-09-2015, 10:28

I like old Shures. Not only do they sound good but you can get a quite passable (allegedly Jico made) EVG stylus for most of them for just a few quid delivered from the states. I'm sure an SAS is much better (and I really must try one soon) but for the money, they're not bad.
The compliant nature of the proper styluses suits my SME series 2 and 3.

I've got:
M44 (new proper stylus, haven't got round to trying it yet).
M55
A couple of M75s
An AOC? branded M75
Three M91Eds (two with original stylus)
Two M95 (one with a NOS original stylus)
An RXT-4? with missing upper housing that I haven't tried
A realistic badged something
Two V15II but only with one cheap EVG stylus between them.

Things I would like to try:

Based on this thread, an M97
A decent stylus on the V15II
Later V15s

mikmas

04-09-2015, 10:38

Still have the original M75-6s that came with my Braun TT and used it for many years with joy ... recently displaced by a brighter and fuller sounding Ortofon from Grant.

I think the dullness of the Shure was caused by a poor replacement stylus a while back so may try a Jico stylus when I have a few pence to splurge :)

Marco

05-09-2015, 10:16

I've just been doing some more research on the Shure M44-G, which when you read into it, is quite highly regarded in some quarters. Interestingly, there are numerous stylus replacement options for it, as it also shares the same body as the M55.

Therefore, all of the following styli can be fitted to the M44-G:

N44-5 .5mil conical red grip up to 1.5g VTF
N44G .7mil conical grey grip up to 1.5g VTF (I've seen early Shure catalogues with .6mil quoted)
N44C .7mil conical light blue grip 3-5g VTF
N44-7 .7mil conical white grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-1 1.0mil conical blue grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44-3 2.5mil conical green grip 1.5-3g VTF
N44E .4x.7mil elliptical brown grip 1.75g-4g VTF
N55E .2x.7mil elliptical yellow grip up to 2g VTF(up to 1.5g in early catalogues, same specifications as the V15-I) - modern ones may be .3x.7mil.

What I intend to do is compare the M44-G, with its stock conical stylus, against one of the above elliptical versions. The question is which one? :hmm:

Jico also do a rather nice version of the N44E: http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info.php?products_id=1012

I'm tempted to try that or perhaps an original Shure: http://www.turntableneedles.com/N44E-Type-Stylus-for-Shure-M44-Cartridge--our-needle-759-DE_p_1380.html

However, one other train of thought is to fit an N55E stylus, which has a smaller elliptical tip, .2x7mil, as opposed to the .4x7mil of the N44E (which I'm presuming is an advantage, as it might dig out a bit more detail?) and it also employs a lower VTF level.

Here's one here: http://www.turntableneedles.com/N55E-Type-Stylus-for-Shure-M55-Cartridge--our-needle-759-DEM_p_4039.html

Therefore, I'm probably either going to go for the Jico N44E or the Shure N55E, as shown above. Which one would you guys buy, and why, or perhaps you have an alternative suggestion? :)

Marco.

Kvaal

05-09-2015, 10:28

I will be happy to read your opinion on the JICO N 44g. I have good results with the N 70, N 75, N 91 from JICO. I regard the JICO styli to be better than the originals.

Marco

05-09-2015, 10:56

Hi Johan,

I hadn't thought of the Jico N44G, as concial-wise, I was just going to use the stock stylus that comes with the M44 cartridge. However, that is also an option.

I'm specifically looking for opinions on fitting an N55E stylus to an M44G cartridge, and what advantages (if any) are likely to be gained over fitting an N44E to the same cartridge? :)

Marco.

anthonyTD

05-09-2015, 11:14

Hi Peter,
I still have a Shure M55E,Which was My Father's, that i would say the same about,and wouldnt part with, as you say, they have their failings, but in the right arm and turntable, they just ooze Quality, and play music very very well.:)
I today put back my trusty old Shure 97xe. I have been using some vastly more expensive cartridges recently (no names, no packdrill) and yet again, the Shure shocked me with it's sheer all-round class. As always, you can play the 'hi fi' game, saying it lacks the last vestiges of detail, is not detailed in the extreme treble and so on,and on....). But the truth is, to my ears this cartridge oozes quality. It is well-balanced, sufficiently alive and, above all, doesn't seek to exaggerate detail, the abiding sin of most moving coil cartridges.
I've used the Shure is preference to £4000 cartridges.
You never, ever, get agreement in the audio community. That would be asking too much; but for $70 the Shure is one of the great bargains .And if you don't like it...you have a useful spare kicking around.

Marco

05-09-2015, 11:22

Anthony, does yours have a brown shell (with yellow stylus housing) and look a bit like this:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/537/QRSdvs.jpg

Or a black shell (with yellow stylus housing), like this:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/FbTYbl.jpg

Given what I've been reading, 'word on the street' appears to suggest that the early brown-bodied versions are the ones to have, and are quite rare.

Marco.

anthonyTD

05-09-2015, 14:23

Mine has a black shell, and yellow stylus, i think i was with my Dad when he purchased it new, in the early 1970's, i have a spare new American made Needle for it, but the original one, when inspected under a glass, is still in excelent condition, and sounds fine, my Dad looked after it, and also had other cartridges too, so it wasnt used to death!
I would have thought that the black one was the earlier one though :scratch:

Marco

05-09-2015, 14:36

Dunno, mate, I'm not an expert. Perhaps any resident Shure aficionados could clarify?

It appears to be the consensus, if one searches on Google, but that doesn't mean it's fact. I suppose the brown one looks older to me, and also, as far as I know, all Shure cartridges, apart from that one, come in black shells, so one would presume that the originals were brown, unless they just decided to introduce brown ones halfway through their production? :hmm:

Marco.

Macca

05-09-2015, 14:43

Marco

05-09-2015, 14:48

Barry's old post here is interesting, in respect of brown or black bodies: www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28357-Shure-M55e-I-recently-inherited-one&p=488662#post488662

He appears to confirm my suspicions.

Marco.

Marco

05-09-2015, 14:53

Shure M75ED is the only one I am familiar with. I quite liked it but the only problem I have with these conical and elliptical styli cartridges is the inner groove distortion. They make it way too noticeable for me and it breaks the spell.

Honestly, much of that can be dialled out with careful (often anally so) attention to set up. The Denon DL-S1, fitted to my Techy, at the last NEBO, had an elliptical stylus on it! ;)

Marco.

Macca

05-09-2015, 14:56

Honestly, much of that can be dialled out with careful (often anally so) attention to set up. The Denon DL-S1, fitted to my Techy, at the last NEBO, had an elliptical stylus on it! ;)

Marco.

But how many times were we playing the last track on a side? I take your point about proper set-up, though.

struth

05-09-2015, 14:59

Im not very anul.. It takes me a few miutes to change a cart. Pretty much always sounds good to me...im probably lazy:lol:

Marco

05-09-2015, 15:00

But how many times were we playing the last track on a side? I take your point about proper set-up, though.

Honestly, mate, it wouldn't matter which track was played. I know, because I've tried it many times when using the cartridge. The DL-S1, optimally set-up, exhibits zero audible inner-groove distortion.

Marco.

DSJR

05-09-2015, 15:08

Shure M75ED is the only one I am familiar with. I quite liked it but the only problem I have with these conical and elliptical styli cartridges is the inner groove distortion. They make it way too noticeable for me and it breaks the spell.

The really sad thing about vintage 1970's Shure styli is that almost all but the V15 looked like pieces of coal under the microscope - grubby and not always well ground and polished. (Of course there may be exceptions ;)). I have an Ed Saunders N55E and it's as smooth as silk, tracking at 1.75g or so. I can't see how the current M44 series models can sell for similar money to the 97XE

Marco

05-09-2015, 15:10

So which is the earliest, Dave: a brown bodied M55E, or a black one? :)

Marco.

struth

05-09-2015, 15:33

Im not very anul.. It takes me a few miutes to change a cart. Pretty much always sounds good to me...im probably lazy:lol:

Maybe more anal than i gave myself credit for. Listening to an album and got a pop on second last track....off and cleaned and back on for last 2 tracks...deary me!:doh:

anthonyTD

05-09-2015, 16:15

Barry

05-09-2015, 16:58

I have to say that the M55E, in my Excalibur arm on my old Cranfield rock turntable, Tracks the last track on most of the records i play, almost as good as the first!
Apparently, the 55 is almost an identical cartridge inside as the V15, the main diffrence being; the V15 having a better high frequency response!
Anyone who know's diffrent, i await a flaming! :eyebrows:

It's true the M55E was virtually identical to the V15 Mk. I. I had one with a brown-coloured body back in the late '60s, to replace an M3D (only bought as I couldn't find anyone to supply me with a B&O SP6 cartridge that I really wanted). The M55E was later replaced by a Shure V15 Mk. II (Improved) in 1972 after listening to a friend's M75ED. The V15 was then replaced by a Mk. III in 1976 and was the last Shure I used; having discovered what the likes of Ortofon and Decca had to offer!

My alligence to Shure stopped with the V15 Mk. III, not because it was a bad-sounding cartridge, it wasn't, rather I preferred what the Ortofon (SL15E) and Decca (Mk. V "Blue") could do. None of the Shures have ever sounded 'bad' to my ears.

However I really should have tried the V15 Mk. IV, which I later heard in the '80s. Now that was an improvement due to Shure re-thinking their act, abandoning their obsession with "Trackability" and concentrating on the acoustic performance of their designs.

I find it hard to believe that only fine-line stylii are sine qua non in avoiding end of side distortion, and other stylus profiles unlistenable! What about the EMT TSD 15, Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU; all tipped with spherical stylii?

Marco

05-09-2015, 17:29

I find it hard to believe that only fine-line stylii are sine qua non in avoiding end of side distortion, and other stylus profiles unlistenable! What about the EMT TSD 15, Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU; all tipped with spherical stylii?

Exactly. End of side distortion is a non-issue (audibly), when optimally set-up, with those cartridges, otherwise I wouldn't be able to live with them.

So Barry, is the brown M55E definitely older than the black one?

Marco.

Barry

05-09-2015, 17:35

Exactly. End of side distortion is a non-issue (audibly), when optimally set-up, with those cartridges, otherwise I wouldn't be able to live with them.

So Barry, is the brown M55E definitely older than the black one?

Marco.

I don't know Marco - I have a black-coloured 55E, kept as a reminder of my earlier and long since gone, brown-coloured one, but I'm always on the lookout for a brown M55E (for the sake of nostalgia!).

Marco

05-09-2015, 17:42

Well, if you had a brown-bodied M55E in the 1960s, that's pretty early, and for me would indicate that the black ones came after that, perhaps in the 70s... When was the M55E first introduced by Shure?

Also interesting what you've said on this thread, post #3, about US-made ones, and the brown one representing one of such: www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28357-Shure-M55e-I-recently-inherited-one&p=488662#post488662

If the brown-bodied ones were 'original US', and ones after that were made in Mexico, then one would presume that the brown ones are older?

Marco.

anthonyTD

05-09-2015, 18:52

Thanks for confirming that Barry,
I am getting old, but my memory is still pretty good in certain areas!
I would assume then, that the brown base versions are indeed older, or were just made for a diffrent market to the black bodied versions, be interesting to find out the story behind that...
It's true the M55E was virtually identical to the V15 Mk. I. I had one with a brown-coloured body back in the late '60s, to replace an M3D (only bought as I couldn't find anyone to supply me with a B&O SP6 cartridge that I really wanted). The M55E was later replaced by a Shure V15 Mk. II (Improved) in 1972 after listening to a friend's M75ED. The V15 was then replaced by a Mk. III in 1976 and was the last Shure I used; having discovered what the likes of Ortofon and Decca had to offer!

My alligence to Shure stopped with the V15 Mk. III, not because it was a bad-sounding cartridge, it wasn't, rather I preferred what the Ortofon (SL15E) and Decca (Mk. V "Blue") could do. None of the Shures have ever sounded 'bad' to my ears.

However I really should have tried the V15 Mk. IV, which I later heard in the '80s. Now that was an improvement due to Shure re-thinking their act, abandoning their obsession with "Trackability" and concentrating on the acoustic performance of their designs.

I find it hard to believe that only fine-line stylii are sine qua non in avoiding end of side distortion, and other stylus profiles unlistenable! What about the EMT TSD 15, Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU; all tipped with spherical stylii?

Barry

05-09-2015, 19:19

I bought my brown M55E in 1969 and it was definitely made in the US, as confirmend by the accompanying literature. The black body M55Es could well be later versions, but it is not clear if they were made in the US, or if they were made in Mexico for Shure.

The black-bodied M55E I now have came with a turntable and arm I bought in the late '90s, and as such, came without any literature or provenance. (Though I doubt if Shure would necessarily say in the literature if the cartridge was made in Mexico.)

I believe the brown body versions are older than the black body versions; what I'm not certain about is where the latter were made.

anthonyTD

05-09-2015, 19:27

Hmmm,
Looks like it may just be case of searching the net to see what info is available.
I bought my brown M55E in 1969 and it was definitely made in the US, as confirmend by the accompanying literature. The black body M55Es could well be later versions, but it is not clear if they were made in the US, or if they were made in Mexico for Shure.

The black-bodied M55E I now have came with a turntable and arm I bought in the late '90s, and as such, came without any literature or provenance. (Though I doubt if Shure would necessarily say in the literature if the cartridge was made in Mexico.)

I believe the brown body versions are older than the black body versions; what I'm not certain about is where the latter were made.

Marco

05-09-2015, 19:32

Anyway, all this talk of 'brown ones' is making me want to press one out... :eyebrows:

Back in five! :D

Marco.

Barry

05-09-2015, 19:38

Some interesting chat here concerning the M55E, and to bring the thread back on track, a favourable mention of the M97xE:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12321

DSJR

05-09-2015, 19:50

So which is the earliest, Dave: a brown bodied M55E, or a black one? :)

Marco.

I don't know, as in the earlier 70's, the plastic was black for this cartridge (M55E) and the M44 series wasn't regarded as 'HiFi' enough in my circle, so slipped below my radar.

Marco

05-09-2015, 19:56

Ah, okies.... I'm pretty happy now that the brown-bodied ones were earlier :)

M44s not "HiFi enough"? Hush they mouth, watch this space, and prepare for me to prove you wrong again (about cartridges)! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Marco

10-09-2015, 18:29

Just won this vintage, new-in-box, one on ebay:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/909/TdtGz4.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/912/INJcK2.jpg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shure-Stereo-Dynetic-Stylus-M44E-Brand-New-/171918774998?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107094819%26meid%3D9830f 8f6e567470c930d142bce4e46f3%26pid%3D100039%26rk%3D 1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D171918774998&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=x2%252Be1sge1P3nKnkZ0I4QZJocp3c%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Not bad for £24, considering an (arguably inferior) current production one would've cost me £50! :eyebrows:

Now to choose a 'posh' stylus for it!

Marco.

Marco

16-09-2015, 22:30

Just ordered a genuine (original) Shure N55E stylus, for the above NOS/NIB M44E cartridge, from LP Gear: http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=fa66d7e1acf4e4e851847464a9 ce0273&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHN055EIMP

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/910/7EXPhc.jpg

● Special elliptical stylus for superior fidelity
● Extends fluidity and innate delicacy of regular ellipticals
● Diamond tip r/R radii: 5/18 µm (.0002 x .007 inch)
● Genuine, original, 100% authentic Shure stylus

I'm hoping that this will be a good combination. The 'special elliptical' stylus, apart from having a superior tip, also reduces the output of the M44E to 6.2 mV, from 9.0mV, when fitted with the stock (N44E) stylus, which should also be sonically beneficial. Tracks lighter, too (.75 - 2.0 grams). It'll be interesting comparing both styli (stock and N55E) on the same cartridge.

The cartridge will be installed in my Fidelity Research S/3 headshell (perceived wisdom suggests that M44s like some mass, and this baby weighs 20g):

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/OyUlUs.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/a3DEQw.jpg

Full report when cartridge and stylus arrive! :)

Marco.

Marco

16-09-2015, 23:15

It should sound roughly like this (hopefully a bit better in my set-up). This, of course, is an M55E. However, my M44E (with N55E stylus) should have a similar sound:

7BEXcfQEdL4

Given the limitations of YouTube videos (and probably a less than wonderful demonstration T/T and system), that doesn't sound too shabby :)

Marco.

Geoff101

17-09-2015, 05:28

I haven't tried my M44 or M55 so I'll be interested to see how you get on Marco.

Marco

17-09-2015, 07:40

Hi Geoff,

Thanks. I'll certainly let you know.

From time to time, I enjoy 'revisiting' these vintage cartridges, which were around way before I got into hi-fi, and assessing them in a modern (but sympathetic) context, especially when fitted to a high-quality tonearm, T/T and phono stage, where experience tells me they can often sound remarkably good!

It's my opinion that the T/Ts, arms and phono stages, which originally would've partnered cartridges, such as the Shure M44/55, weren't up to showing what they were truly capable of. That's certainly been borne out in my previous experiments with a Shure M3D, [original 'USA made'] SC35C, and Goldring G800 - all of which, in my current set up, have sounded far better than they had any right to.

IME, what these vintage cartridges all tend to share, which I find missing in many modern designs, 'voiced' to sound rather 'shiny' and 'spotlit' in comparison, is a relaxed and effortlessly musical quality, married to a beautifully 'rich tone' (but not euphonic or wooly sounding, or lacking in detail, in the right set up) - and I love that: the ability to enjoy listening to your records for hours on end, without sometimes wincing when the sound on certain recordings becomes 'shouty' or in-yer-face.

In effect, it allows you to 'relax into the music', without any sense of fatigue or disappointing frustration, which in my experience isn't always possible with a lot of modern cartridges.

I'm also hoping that the superior quality tip of the N55E stylus will help tease out more detail from the grooves, and add a goodly dose of refinement to the presentation of the M44E, which its stock stylus (or conical equivalent in the M44G) holds back. Anyway we shall see...When it comes to these matters, I prefer applying some lateral thinking and choosing the less obvious path, rather than simply going out and buying something new (especially as I dislike how many modern cartridges sound), as the rewards of doing so can often be significant, and result in high SPPV :cool:

Marco.

take5

17-09-2015, 08:33

Great thread, and I wait to hear how you get on with this new cartridge/stylus Marco.

This thread has got me interested in these old cartridges and Ive looked mine out of their box. I have the following Shures.

75EJ type 2. brand new/unused
75EJ type 2 no stylus
75ED type 2 no stylus
M55E 2 x brown both with stylus
M55E 1 x black, no stylus
M32-3 no stylus
V15 type 3, with stylus

Ive never tried any of them, which now seems silly. one day!!

Marco

17-09-2015, 08:45

Great thread, and I wait to hear how you get on with this new cartridge/stylus Marco.

This thread has got me interested in these old cartridges and Ive looked mine out of their box. I

Cheers, Brian! The latter is one of the main reasons for my drawing attention to them, as I believe that the better ones warrant such attention :)

M55E 2 x brown both with stylus

Ive never tried any of them, which now seems silly. one day!!

If the above are working, with original styli in good condition, then I would seriously try fitting one of them to a quality arm and T/T... You may be pleasantly surprised at what you hear! ;)

Marco.

Oddball

17-09-2015, 21:15

Very interesting Marco :)
I have followed this , because I have 2 Shure M75-6S carts , and they are excellent for trying all manner of later Shure styli on , but I have yet to invest in a Jico just yet :)
I have a M91 ED on one and have yet to try something different on tother , but I prefer the sound from them on my Pioneer PL A35 to the At 95 cart and stylus , especially after I bought the Project 2 phono stage a week or 2 ago .

Marco

17-09-2015, 21:36

Hi Anto,

I have followed this , because I have 2 Shure M75-6S carts , and they are excellent for trying all manner of later Shure styli on , but I have yet to invest in a Jico just yet :)

Me neither, but I'm eyeing this up: http://www.lpgear.com/product/eSHN055E.html

First of all, I want to see what a bonafide Shure N55E is like on the M44, as some claim that they make the Jicos sound a little 'sterile' in comparison, which is something I wouldn't want. In my experience, there's always some kind of trade off between 'accuracy' and 'musicality', when it come to stylus profiles.

Therefore, I'll wait until I get a proper handle on what the cartridge is capable of, with both its stock stylus fitted, and the N55E, before considering the Jico.

I have a M91 ED on one and have yet to try something different on tother , but I prefer the sound from them on my Pioneer PL A35 to the At 95 cart and stylus , especially after I bought the Project 2 phono stage a week or 2 ago .

I enjoy the upfront, 'peppy' sound and punchy bass of the M55Es I've heard so far on various needle-drops, so I'm looking forward to giving the M44 a spin, which stylus aside, is identical :cool:

The official 'hi-fi cartridges' Shure produce, such as the 97XE, mentioned at the beginning of this thread (V-15s and the like), whilst fine, tend to have a more 'matter-of-fact' sonic presentation, which isn't really my bag. In my experience, the professional/broadcast cartridges, in Shure's product range, tend to produce a livelier sound that makes music more fun to listen to.

Marco.

TKK

01-10-2015, 02:37

A chance stumble into this post (https://sites.google.com/site/zevaudio/turt/cartridge-comparison-list/shure-v15v) about the JICO (can’t say I like what I see in the pics there) and leading to this thread caused me to reinstall the Shure V15vMR, purchased in 1989 and on its second stylus which has some way to go.

If cartridges have a gender, the V15 would most unmistakably be male. The closed-fist signature is obvious, as is the hammer-pounding tempo. Strangely, it is at the same time velvety and kind of ‘flat’, as in like you get the feeling nothing is happening because you don’t quite see the outlines visibly drawn.

I ran half of the discs in Coltrane’s Heavyweight box set and the dry and sparse acoustics at the Atlantic studios suited the sonic signature of the V15 to produce a driven and engaging sound; the air rush and fullness from Coltrane’s sax that the V15 produces is quite astonishing - very much what the executives at Atlantic ordered, I suppose.

On Salvatore Accardo’s recording of Paganini’s 24 capricci on Fone 065, I smiled at the furious and perky dynamics but was sure the V15 was bottling up the sound, in parts, a little too much. To me, the V15, basically, has very little of the overshoot of the middle and high frequencies that are rampant among many moving coil models, and that perhaps is the reason why a good number of listeners find the V15 underwhelming. The Grace F9e Ruby, by comparison and which I overall like more, is more effusive, expansionary, beautifully delicate when needed to be, and yet can almost match the V15’s power. Marry the strengths of both and we have one killer of a cartridge and there will be little temptation to switch to the ever so-obscenely-priced moving coils in today’s market place.

In the five year period between 1984 and 1989 I bought a Denon 103D, a Grace F9e Ruby and the Shure V15vMR, each at less than BP 200. Even though not a fair reference as I use today’s conversion rate between the Singapore $ and the British Pound and not added consideration for inflation, you get the idea of the immense value these designs bring in comparison to what’s offered in the market place today. Without hesitation, I would buy them all over again.

rubber duck

01-10-2015, 12:22

The official 'hi-fi cartridges' Shure produce, such as the 97XE, mentioned at the beginning of this thread (V-15s and the like), whilst fine, tend to have a more 'matter-of-fact' sonic presentation, which isn't really my bag.

I'm not sure if you have had much experience with the M97xE Marco but that's certainly not how I would describe it: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32213-Shure-97xE-Cartridge-views/page3&highlight=M97xE

Btw, the 97xE 'mentioned at the beginning of this thread' is the subject of this thread, at least that's what the thread title says!

helma

01-10-2015, 12:43

IME, what these vintage cartridges all tend to share, which I find missing in many modern designs, 'voiced' to sound rather 'shiny' and 'spotlit' in comparison, is a relaxed and effortlessly musical quality, married to a beautifully 'rich tone' (but not euphonic or wooly sounding, or lacking in detail, in the right set up) - and I love that: the ability to enjoy listening to your records for hours on end, without sometimes wincing when the sound on certain recordings becomes 'shouty' or in-yer-face.

I have the G800 (or actually a Tenorel 2001, but it seems to be the same body under different branding) and it certainly has something magical going on, especially with the vintage aftermarket spherical stylus I got it with - I also have a original Tenorel T-2001ED .2x.7 nude elliptical for it, which certainly digs more information out and while retaining most of the midrange and bass quality, but the treble gets a bit overly bright at times. Dropping the resistive loading helps some with that, still overall I'd say the spherical is more enjoyable. I don't think it's necessarily all that neutral though it does sound well balanced to my ears, but either way the sound is such that you don't really care if it's neutral or not because you just itch to spin some more records :)

That said I've settled for an Ortofon MC 10 Supreme though :D I find it has that nice moving coil openess and 'linearity', I'm sure the treble lifts a bit but it does so in a gentle way and high enough in the frequency range to only sound a bit 'airy' - to balance that out it also has nice and meaty bass/lower mids and like all Ortofons I've heard seems pretty much spot on the tonality of acoustic intruments. Unlike some moving coils, it never makes me miss cartridges like the G800, no matter what kind of music I'm listening to.

I'm afraid the M75 has spoiled the Shures for me, I can't stand that cartridge and it took me a while to realize it, because initially I like the sound it gives, but overtime I start to hate the TT I've got one on, until I switch the cartridge and realize it was the Shure I was hating. I'm sure they have better sounding cartridges, but if the M75 is any inclination of the house sound, it certainly is not for me. I think the styli I've heard it with include original M75-6 and M75-EJ + some unknown aftermarket spherical & M75-ED aftermarket, but apparently the Shure styli are easy to get 'right' for aftermarket companies, since all those seemed to sound really similar and true to the cart, unlike most aftermarket styli for some other companies. Still, I'm a bit curious about something like the SC35C but though cheap, I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon.

Worth noting that my system on the whole is leaning on the warm side (custom 80s pre w/ the power amp of JVC JR-S600 "monster" receiver driving Kef 104aBs, in a warm sounding room) so adding a 'warm' cart doesn't do it much favors. In a different setting I imagine the Shure M97xE could be just the thing, since while it does have a warm sound and a bit recessed treble, it's devoid of any nasty peaks or sudden drops sounding fairly neutral overall.

DSJR

01-10-2015, 17:35

I'd probably suggest an AT120E in preference if the arm is low enough mass for it.... Give it a medium to higher mass arm and the bass goes floppy as per the HFW review. The 2M Red/510mk2/Om10? has a bit more 'energy' about it too and again, may just suit a warmer-toned system better...

rubber duck

01-10-2015, 18:00

Interesting what gets suggested on a Shure M97Xe thread...

Worth noting that my system on the whole is leaning on the warm side (custom 80s pre w/ the power amp of JVC JR-S600 "monster" receiver driving Kef 104aBs, in a warm sounding room) so adding a 'warm' cart doesn't do it much favors. In a different setting I imagine the Shure M97xE could be just the thing, since while it does have a warm sound and a bit recessed treble, it's devoid of any nasty peaks or sudden drops sounding fairly neutral overall.

Kai, you don't list the most critical part of your system - t/t and arm. This is important not just for the arm (mass and capacitance of the tonearm cable) but also the sound of your t/t. The M97Xe does take time to break in and what I initially found as a touch full disappeared after maybe 50hrs or so. It now sounds surprisingly clean and open, but still with enough body to make my MC carts sound lean. Treble is not so much recessed as it is rolled off at the very top. But then again, the Nagaoka MP500 rolls of almost 10dB between 10kHz and 20kHz and not many complain about that.

helma

01-10-2015, 20:27

Interesting what gets suggested on a Shure M97Xe thread...

Kai, you don't list the most critical part of your system - t/t and arm. This is important not just for the arm (mass and capacitance of the tonearm cable) but also the sound of your t/t. The M97Xe does take time to break in and what I initially found as a touch full disappeared after maybe 50hrs or so. It now sounds surprisingly clean and open, but still with enough body to make my MC carts sound lean. Treble is not so much recessed as it is rolled off at the very top. But then again, the Nagaoka MP500 rolls of almost 10dB between 10kHz and 20kHz and not many complain about that.

Btw. I don't actually own the M97xE, I've only heard it in needledrops. I realize what I originally wrote is a bit confusing in that respect since readers can't see the thoughts passing through my head when I write and only so much of it gets actually typed out :)

Still, I have two TTs, a TD-160 with the original (heavyish) TP-16 & a Dual 1019 with a Denon DA-305. The TTs don't sound that different tonally, I use Ortofon MC-10 supremes in both. I was going to get a DL-103 for the Denon arm but I came upon a new in box MC-10 Supreme for really cheap so I couldn't resist and got a 2nd Ortofon instead... In the stock arm of the 1019 I have a 'Esoter Azzurra' (rebranded Glanz Moving Flux) for background music (automatics) and beat up records. It's 0.5mil spherical, quite nice cartridge actually. It does have a rolling off treble response but in a 'nice' way so in practice it doesn't really sound lacking or too closed off. The Glanz 'Moving Flux' carts are to my ears the nicest MMs I've heard, together with the Ortofon VMS20 & 30, though the VMS carts really need lower mass arms than I have currently to sound their best.

Re the Nagaoka and frequency response in general - I don't think rolling off or having some "hills & valleys" in the frequency response have that drastic effect, if the transitions are 'slow' enough. Of course they give something of a signature sound, but one that is easy to hear through in a sense - it's the sharp, resonant dips and peaks (like for example incorrect loading in MMs can produce) that really mess up the sound. I'm sure most rooms are very far from neutral unless some serious effort is made in the room acoustics - I know mine is, though I have no idea of what actual measurements would look like. Still, I have a fairly large room with lots of paintings on the walls, some carpets and the walls are made of thick logs, wooden floors and a high ceiling, so the acoustics are very pleasant, it's a really nice sounding room :)

I'm not much of an audiophile really, I have cheap system and I don't strive for the most transparent experience, I'm perfectly happy with my room having a sound as long as it's a nice one. Getting off topic, but probably provides some context to what I write.

Marco

01-10-2015, 21:37

Hi Jeff,

I'm not sure if you have had much experience with the M97xE Marco but that's certainly not how I would describe it: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32213-Shure-97xE-Cartridge-views/page3&highlight=M97xE

Not so much with the M97xE (although I have heard it a few times), but more with the V-15, which although I like (and can appreciate why it's so popular), is not really my bag.

Whilst it doesn't do anything overtly wrong, to my ears, it just makes music sound a bit 'meh'. It doesn't really ignite your passion or get your juices flowing! And the M97xE, although better in some respects, for me shares those traits. In my opinion, they're inherent in the somewhat safe and inoffensive 'Shure sound'.

Shure 'professional' cartridges, such as the M3D and M55E, however, to my ears, imbue music with more joie de vivre, and as such make it rather more fun to listen to. They have an addictive 'get up and go', for me, which in Shure's, shall we say, 'proper hi-fi cartridges', has (in comparison) got up and gone. They just play it a little too safe, for me, and fail to stir the soul.

That fact was ably brought home again recently, when a mate of mine (DarrenHW, from Wrexham, who posts here) bought a V-15 from ebay, and then promptly went on to sell it, after I let him hear a Denon DL-103, played through a modified Lentek MC head amp, and into the valve MM stage of his Croft preamp. The difference was night and day!! :)

Btw, the 97xE 'mentioned at the beginning of this thread' is the subject of this thread, at least that's what the thread title says!

Indeed. I was simply pointing out, as I've outlined, that it's not really my type of cartridge. YMMV.

Marco.

Marco

01-10-2015, 21:46

Incidentally, as an update on this (my NOS Shure M44E):

Just won this vintage, new-in-box, one on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shure-Stereo-Dynetic-Stylus-M44E-Brand-New-/171918774998?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.S EED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107094819%26meid%3D9830f 8f6e567470c930d142bce4e46f3%26pid%3D100039%26rk%3D 1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D171918774998&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=x2%252Be1sge1P3nKnkZ0I4QZJocp3c%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Not bad for £24, considering an (arguably inferior) current production one would've cost me £50! :eyebrows:

Now to choose a 'posh' stylus for it!

The 'posh stylus' (N55E) I ordered from LP Gear arrived ages ago, but I'm still waiting for the cartridge! Turns out the guy I bought it from on ebay used some kind of weird US postage system, where items sent go half way around the world and back before reaching their destination :doh:

You wouldn't believe the tracking information I have for this thing - Phileas Fogg would be proud....! Anyway, the package is currently with Yodel (yes I know 'oh dear', is the word), and I'm waiting for it to arrive now any day, so full report on how it sounds when it does :cool:

Marco.

rubber duck

01-10-2015, 21:55

Shure cartridges, such as the M3D and M55E, however, to my ears, imbue music with more joie de vivre, and as such make it rather more fun to listen to. They have an addictive 'get up and go', for me, which in Shure's, shall we say, 'proper hi-fi cartridges', has (in comparison) got up and gone. They just play it a little too safe, for me, and fail to stir the soul.

Well you should try to spend some time with the 97xE in your system. It makes it very hard to sit still while listening which surely is one definition of fun! And cheap too!

Marco

01-10-2015, 22:05

Okay dokes... Have you heard an M55E 'in anger', as it were?

I'm looking forward to hearing the M44 (same thing), fitted with the NOS Shure N55E stylus, as I suspect the results will be very good. Cheap, too! ;)

Marco.

Macca

02-10-2015, 08:45

. But then again, the Nagaoka MP500 rolls of almost 10dB between 10kHz and 20kHz and not many complain about that.

What is your source for this? I have the individual Bruel and Kjoer trace (signed and dated) for my MP50 and it is dead flat to over 15Khz. I doubt that the MP500 is significantly different in that respect.

rubber duck

02-10-2015, 09:23

Paul Miller measured the MP500 in HFN Feb 2011. I was also surprised.

Macca

02-10-2015, 10:25

Do the new Nagaokas come supplied with their own trace? Anyone own an MP500 that can shed some light?
My MP50 is quite 'creamy' sounding compared to my Ortofon 540 Mk2 - they are probably of comparable quality and price. Maybe that is the difference between them?

Marco

02-10-2015, 12:40

Forget how it measures. What does it matter? If it said on a piece of paper that the Nagaoka measures about as flat as the Himalayas, yet you thought it sounded fab, would you all of a sudden dismiss it as crap? ;)

All that matters is if you enjoy the sound it makes, and how it reproduces your favourite music, so simply judge the cartridge on that! :)

Marco.

Macca

02-10-2015, 12:47

Academic interest, that's all. :)

rubber duck

10-10-2015, 09:47

Okay dokes... Have you heard an M55E 'in anger', as it were?

No.

I'm looking forward to hearing the M44 (same thing), fitted with the NOS Shure N55E stylus, as I suspect the results will be very good. Cheap, too!

Am eagerly waiting to hear about this though! Any news?

Marco

25-11-2015, 17:50

Just won a nice vintage M55E, with an original stylus in decent condition (although I don't really need one) for £40: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252184101231

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/907/cTFmwP.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p7cTFmwPj)

When it arrives, I'll pop the NOS N55E stylus on it, and see how this combo performs... Full report (with pics) to follow! :)

Marco.

struth

25-11-2015, 17:54

looks nice and clean with straight stylus anyways... nice one for the money

Marco

25-11-2015, 18:02

Ducatiist

29-11-2015, 21:28

Yup, I'm pleased with it, as they're getting quite scarce now, and mostly found in the States. The bonus with this one is that the seller is in Liverpool and comes to Wrexham sometimes, which he's due to do shortly, so he'll also be delivering it. Result! :cool:

I'm hopeful that it will be somewhat of a 'giant-killer' ;)

Marco.

I've got one of these with a NOS stylus, so will be interesting to see how our host gets on with it!
I've never got round to fitting mine yet, but if Marco has good results I will make the effort!

I bought a Goldring G800 after reading his thread and was mightily impressed! I bought a bog standard one and it sounded mightily good!
I've just got one back from being re tipped that I need to try out...but where does my time go??? I never seem to have much time for experimenting or anything these days.

I'm sure I had one of these Shures mounted on a Leak Delta turntable when I was about 14 years old (my first proper turntable purchased very cheaply) and it sounded superb.

Watching this thread with much interest now,

Stu

Marco

29-11-2015, 21:45

Nice one, Stu. I should have it on Tuesday... I find it lots of fun 'revisiting' these old-timers in a modern context, which were around long before I got into hi-fi. The results can often be surprising! :cool:

Marco.

walpurgis

29-11-2015, 21:46

Marco

29-11-2015, 21:58

I do like ADCs, but they need a 'low-mass approach', and I favour the high-mass/high VTF one (as it suits my proclivities and love of the 'broadcast sound'), which is why I use 103s, SPUs, etc. My exception to that is the Denon DL-S1.

I *suspect* that the Shure will appreciate a similar high-mass approach, and so will install it in my (rather sexy), totally NOS, 14g vintage Denon PCL-300 headshell:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/673/4CjxzO.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/hj0SKW.jpg

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/661/FoEcmV.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/912/T6i833.jpg

Should be a nice combo... Full review and pics to follow! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

30-11-2015, 09:55

Lots of vintage MMs being tried, but nobody has mentioned ADCs.

I've had older Shures, Ortofons, Nagaokas, Audio Technicas, Goldrings, Stanton & Pickerings (same company) and many others, but as soon as I bung a 'Classic' ADC on, I just think WOW! They really do have something special. Yes, I'm aware that they are not true MMs, as they use the induced magnetic idea.

Good examples of the best ADCs are getting a bit harder to find these days, but really worth tracking down. The sound is a bit of a revelation in my opinion. I rank them alongside Deccas as my favourite non MCs. They need the right type of arm though.

I mention ADC's quite a bit and have a small collection of my own - 26, various marques of XLM from original to III, ZLM and Phase 4, as well as a good and treasured Sonus Blue descendant. They mostly lack the 'precision' of say, a 2M Bronze or Goldring 1042, but I do love their sweet 'airy' and musical nature :)

Marco

30-11-2015, 11:32

Ah, so you haven't deserted us then, Dave, contrary to what 'others' are saying [don't listen to their blinkered bullshit]? ;)

I shouldn't need to tell you, my friend, that you'll *always* be welcome here - and I mean that :)

Marco.

DSJR

30-11-2015, 15:47

I know :)

All I want to add - and from personal experience - is to PLEASE get a good microscope and clock the bit of 'shaped coal' that's on the end of many lower cost Shure cantilevers. Cloudy and ill-polished diamonds abound and I'm certain that this has some effect on sonics. The Ed Saunders N55e stylus I have, if nothing else, offers a nicely finished elliptical diamond and I'm also impressed with the couple of Jico styli I have (Goldring G800E and an elliptical version of the AT 91 variant with aluminium cantilever). Better Shures like the proper V15 series, were rather better and a good early thin-cantilever M75-ED wasn't too bad either, although not as good as a V15 T2.

It'll be interesting to read what you think of the M55E (stylus guard made it a Type 2 or 'Improved' model) :)

By the way chaps, please don't ignore the trusty old Ortofon FF15E! (and its replacements in the VMS5e and OM 5E) We sold hundreds of these in Duals in the late 70's (504's and 604's I think from memory). It's as safe as houses at 1.8g and always puts the music first, even if it wasn't as refined as the better M20 Super (E and FL) and VMS models. I just bought a nos F/FF stylus (the F15E was even better, but Ortofon replaced both styli with the F/FF around 1980 from memory). The VMS5E replaced it I think, as the VMS10 was slightly better imo. Nice lively sound..

Marco

30-11-2015, 16:21

All I want to add - and from personal experience - is to PLEASE get a good microscope and clock the bit of 'shaped coal' that's on the end of many lower cost Shure cantilevers. Cloudy and ill-polished diamonds abound and I'm certain that this has some effect on sonics.

Interesting, and I've seen you mention that before. I'll certainly bear it in mind. Would that also refer to the brand new NOS/NIB 'Shure USA' N55E stylus I've just bought?

It'll be interesting to read what you think of the M55E (stylus guard made it a Type 2 or 'Improved' model)...

I see... 'Improved' in what way, do you know? And do you mean in terms of the stylus or cartridge itself? :)

Marco.

DSJR

30-11-2015, 17:43

The flip-down stylus guard was the 'Improved' bit I believe, but if the diamond was better I cannot say as my M55E 'Improved' came as scrap with a knackered squashed cantilever and no diamond on the end...

Back in the 70's, US manufacturers like Empire and Shure didn't provide very nice diamonds on their cheaper models imo - see below. Even the VM35E (V15 III) lacked a certain finesse in the polish - the later HE and MR diamonds were rather better and I also have a V15 T2 and M75-ED to compare (the ED stylus may have an excessively bent cantilever in terms of 'rake angle,' but they go brittle all too easily sadly).

Your US sourced styli should be similar to what we sold in the UK, as everything came to the UK from the US factories. I HAVEN'T seen post 1980-ish M44/M55 styli to see how or whether they improved. Maybe they did and maybe I'm too fussy, but a proper small microscope is brilliant and it doesn't have to be a fancy one - mine's a 'student/childrens' one, a Christmas present from the mid 60's and with a decent light source, perfectly good. At KJ, we had a wonderful 'Dual' one (made by Dual, not stereoscopic) and I remember the first time I saw a Dynavector 'Diamond' (I think this lives on in the 17D series) cantilever and stylus close up. I was stunned to see the cantilever was better finished and polished than most diamond tips! The stylus tip itself was magnificent!

dmckean

30-11-2015, 18:21

I mention ADC's quite a bit and have a small collection of my own - 26, various marques of XLM from original to III, ZLM and Phase 4, as well as a good and treasured Sonus Blue descendant. They mostly lack the 'precision' of say, a 2M Bronze or Goldring 1042, but I do love their sweet 'airy' and musical nature :)

You might find this interesting, there's a thread over on Audio Karma where one of the old ADC cartridge designers is considering re-entering the market on his own and looking for input.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/new-custom-phonocartridges.688325/

Marco

30-11-2015, 19:59

No worries, Dave. All noted. I'll let you how I get on :)

Marco.

DSJR

30-11-2015, 20:28

You might find this interesting, there's a thread over on Audio Karma where one of the old ADC cartridge designers is considering re-entering the market on his own and looking for input.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/new-custom-phonocartridges.688325/

Many thanks for that. very interesting reading. There was a chap on a US audio forum (I forget which one) who was a similar role at Shure and was thinking of re-manufacturing their most popular styli. I wish something had come of this.

I never got to try an ADC Astrion. Colloms panned it, and wasn't keen on the ZLM either. He seemed at the time to like lush Koetsu's, but today and with a better test arm than a Basik LVX (FFS!), an Astrion would be amazing on clean records.

BTH K10A

30-11-2015, 20:54

M33-7 is an old favourite of mine and the M75ED is great value for money secondhand

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/f07731b1-cad9-4db7-82b7-56a8f8162ea3_zps8dpzw3bk.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/f07731b1-cad9-4db7-82b7-56a8f8162ea3_zps8dpzw3bk.jpg.html)

Marco

30-11-2015, 21:20

Nice, Andy. The M33-7 looks interesting. Not come across that one before :)

What about the M91ED - is that rated?

Marco.

Jimbo

30-11-2015, 21:33

U
M33-7 is an old favourite of mine and the M75ED is great value for money secondhand

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/emttsd15/f07731b1-cad9-4db7-82b7-56a8f8162ea3_zps8dpzw3bk.jpg (http://s46.photobucket.com/user/emttsd15/media/f07731b1-cad9-4db7-82b7-56a8f8162ea3_zps8dpzw3bk.jpg.html)

I have acquired an M75 ED with my Lenco GL75. Are there replacement stylus available for this model. How good is the M75ED?

walpurgis

30-11-2015, 21:53

I was not that keen on some of the seventies Shure MM offerings, but I've always had a soft spot for the M75 series. The original M75E was pretty decent and the next model down M75EJ2 sounded not bad at all, but the M75ED sounded best to me, but it was fairly compliant and worked best in lowish mass arms, as did the M75E. The M91ED was very good indeed and similar to the M75ED. I can't recall the differences (if any). There was an M93E too which was also a similar design, slightly lower spec I believe. I preferred these models to the M44 and M55 variants and the V15.

The Goldring G800 series MM cartridges had a following, the SE being the top spec offering at the time. They sounded pleasant enough, but to me lacked a bit of weight and presence in comparison to the Shures.

The only Shure I still have is a bit of an oddball. It's an M75/6 (the one with the metal mounting clip), that I've fitted with a Goldring made replacement M75E stylus. Can't say I've ever tried it though. But I have a feeling it may sound good. :)

BTH K10A

01-12-2015, 05:40

Nice, Andy. The M33-7 looks interesting. Not come across that one before :)

What about the M91ED - is that rated?

Marco.

Some specs on the M33-7 here https://shure.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/28001/0/filename/1963+phono.pdf

It appears that it's an audiophile cartridge ;)

Marco

01-12-2015, 06:58

Great catalogue that! Love all the retro-style pictures... There is also some seriously sexy kit in there :eek:

I've always wanted to try (or even find) a M232 or 236 professional tonearm, and fit an M3D onto it. I suspect it would sound stunning! What about those valve amps, too? Don't think I've ever even seen a real sample of those...

Marco.

BTH K10A

02-12-2015, 05:48

Marco

02-12-2015, 20:39

Hahahaha... Doesn't surprise me one bit! :D

Marco.

DSJR

02-12-2015, 21:33

My M3-D and N21 stylus mis-tracked on sibilants and I was scared to use it (the diamond was clean and as new). Ballsy sound though and the arm had extra ballast added to sort-of simulate a period arm-mass. I never tried it in the Lab 80 though.

To answer the gent who acquired an M75-ED with a GL75. The two as standard are not the perfect marriage as the combination would wobble on ripply warps (the EJ was the usual match at the time), HOWEVER, Thakker's stylus shop do an interesting L75 headshell, which is the same shape from the top, but a flat plate from the side and supplied with spacers to level the arm.

I haven't yet contacted them, but ESCo do a range of replacememt styli, either their own or imported. Even if the latter, they'd have to be good quality to maintain ESCo's reputation. If the cantilever is clean, they can fit a new diamond to it for not too silly money!

Marco, at the time, the M91-ED was 'supposed' to be identical apart from fittings to the 75-ED. For whatever reason, I always had a sneaky preference for the 91-ED and it may just have been the probably better stylus housing fit in/on the body. can't prove it though as the only decent 75-ED I had was sent to a poster here years ago and the other is suspect. The M93-E was an 'EJ' version of the 91-ED, with softer sound and tracking at a smidge under 2g.

Marco

03-12-2015, 10:02

Nice one, Dave. Thanks for that - and noted. It's just that I have an M91ED on my radar at the moment, in case the M55E doesn't work out, which incidentally arrived today and looks near mint! :)

I shall post my impressions of it in due course, once I have sufficient time to fit it and listen to it properly.

Marco.

Marco

03-12-2015, 11:59

Having just cleaned and examined the supplied stylus, under a microscope I've borrowed, it looks to be in pretty good nick. Therefore, I'll treat that as a 'freebie', as my intention was simply to obtain the cartridge itself, and use it with my existing NOS/NIB Shure stylus! :)

More later.

Marco.

walpurgis

03-12-2015, 12:40

Marco

03-12-2015, 13:05

Ok, bruv, noted! :thumbsup:

Marco.

anthonyTD

03-12-2015, 14:31

Stop gassing, and Put it then, let us know your thoughts!;)
Ok, bruv, noted! :thumbsup:

Marco.

Marco

03-12-2015, 14:45

Patience, dear boy, patience... When you occupy the elevated position, of King Daftee, like wot I do, one's spare time is scarce and rather precious... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD

03-12-2015, 15:02

:eek: Aye, too true! :lol:
Patience, dear boy, patience... When you occupy the elevated position, of King Daftee, like wot I do, one's spare time is scarce and rather precious... :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

narabdela

03-12-2015, 19:46

... When you occupy the elevated position, of King Daftee...

Is that the same as Heid Bummer? :scratch:

Marco

03-12-2015, 19:47

Aye, summat like that! Mair like heid zoomer :D

Marco.

Marco

13-12-2015, 00:03

The Shure will be getting fitted on Monday, so look out for my ramblings on how it sounds then :cool:

Marco.

anubisgrau

13-12-2015, 00:12

Only today a serious dealer in pricey cartridges remarked to me that with some well-known makes, (not Ortofon) every sample sounds a bit different. I've found a lot of sample variation among expensive cartridges in the past, which is another reason I like low-priced but seriously good cartridges.

It cannot be a Koetsu!

walpurgis

13-12-2015, 00:23

I like low-priced but seriously good cartridges.

Such a thing does not exist, unless one has a seriously lucky second hand buy.

struth

13-12-2015, 00:25

Suppose it depends on a definition of low priced ;)

Marco

13-12-2015, 06:48

Why are we quoting banned members, daftees? Pasky-chops is hardly likely to pop back and answer you! ;)

Marco.

Marco

14-12-2015, 15:54

Well, I've just installed the Shure, and first of all put my recently purchased NOS N55E stylus on it, which I bought from LP Gear, in the States. It's literally just been popped into the Denon headshell and roughly set-up, in terms of VTA, dialled in at 1.6g (VTF range is .75 - 2g). Bias has been set at 1.3g.

I always prefer that approach (not fiddling too much with things to start with), until I get a proper handle on what a cartridge is doing, and whether it shows any promise - certainly enough to warrant spending a long time optimising it. Then if I consider the effort is worth it, I will then do the necessary tweaking and set things up properly... In that respect, I find first impressions so important.

In this case I think it will be worth the effort, as first impressions are rather promising indeed, certainly pointing towards a very nice sounding cartridge. I shall comment more later, after some suitable tweaking. I think that I'm going to like this one, though... Even at this early stage I can hear that, without doubt, the Shure is an unmitigated a bargain! :)

Marco.

dmckean

14-12-2015, 17:10

I use that same NOS N55E stylus on my M44G body and have had really good results. It's been years now since I've mounted that cart though.

Marco

14-12-2015, 17:38

It's rather good, Dave. Really hard to fault - just seems to get on with effortlessly digging the music out of the grooves.... Still tweaking things a little though, so will comment when I've got a proper handle on its sonic and musical prowess! :)

One thing's for sure, this is a bonafide hi-fi cartridge, not a 'DJ' one - and a bloody good one at that! :exactly:

Marco.

Marco

15-12-2015, 12:08

So, after some fiddling last night and this morning, I've now got the M55E really singing... It seems to be happiest tracking at 1.7g (thus allowing the requisite amount of detail retrieval and solidity), with the bias set at 1.5g, and the arm absolutely parallel with the record surface.

The (superb quality) 6N headshell wires have also been neatly 'dressed' in the Denon headshell, and alignment and azimuth of the cartridge fastidiously optimised. The cartridge output pins were also thoroughly cleaned with Deoxit, as after all the cartridge was second-hand and rather old.

As usual with these types of cartridges, I obtained some sonic benefit from removing the supplied cheap plastic stylus guard, which if left in situ, simply vibrates and colours the music, causing some blurring and muddling of voices and instruments, an effect which is completely gone once the stylus guard has been removed. I am also confident that the M55E likes a bit of mass, as supplied by the partnering 14g Denon PCL-300 headshell and chunky (non-ferrous) stainless steel allen bolts used.

As a result, I suspect that the Shure wouldn't sound quite right, or reveal its full sonic potential, housed in the rather flimsy and lightweight headshells it would've found itself in during the 1960s and 70s. Adding some more mass in that way (mainly by using a heavier, very inert and solidly constructed headshell), simply gives the sound that the cartridge produces more 'heft' and authority, as well as underpinning music with a seemingly unflappable solidity.

I just love how this cartridge has been 'voiced' in a way that simply sounds "right". As such, it possesses a rather judiciously judged tonal balance and overall presentation. The sound is very detailed, but not in your face, with plenty of 'body' and bass authority, but never veers towards warm or cuddly. It's just a rather refined and finessed listen, but not a boring one in the slightest - essentially it sounds as 'exciting' as the music demands!

Musically, it's very relaxed [but never dull or shut-in], unflustered and rather addictive, pulling you into the music in a way that makes all genres interesting and involving to listen to. It plays jazz and classical music with the same enviable ability as it does rock and dance, so one simply can't 'label' it for use for any one purpose. The M55E (with NOS N55E stylus) is just a superb all-rounder and, quite frankly, makes a veritable mockery of some of the designs produced today, touted by so-called audiophiles as 'superior'.

I think that I paid about £50 for the NOS stylus and £40 for the cartridge itself, so for under £100 it sounds as good as most MM carts I've heard at up to around £500. I kid you not... It would certainly spank an Ortofon 2M Black in the musicality stakes (which sounds rather sterile and 'hi-fi-like' in comparison)! I'd imagine it also helps using a brand new stylus (which obviously has still to run in).

The Shure also tracks like a limpet, with zero signs of sibilance, or any obvious distortion with 'difficult' material. It just sails through every piece of music you throw at it, with consummate aplomb. This is a cartridge that, quite simply, allows you to 'relax into the music', without sitting on edge listening out for 'hi-fi effects' or wondering when the sound is going to break up at any minute. That just doesn't happen with the M55E: it's a music lover's (on a budget) dream.

TBH, I could quite happily live with it is as my everyday cartridge, thus saving the stylus life of my expensive moving-coils, which I could bring out on 'special occasions'/when archiving vinyl to digital (for the RPi), or just when I just fancied a wee change... Yes, it is *that* good! :)

Whether or not the modern (current production) M44 (which I believe is the replacement for the M55) sounds anything like this, I've no idea. Perhaps at some point, I'll buy one and do the comparison. However, in the meantime, I intend to enjoy this ridiculously good cartridge (considering the paltry sum it costs) over the Xmas holidays, and revel in its smile-inducing music making.

Is this Shure a goodie? You betcha - and a 'giant-killer' too, to boot! The M55E/NOS N55E (improved) stylus combo represents SPPV at its best. Highly recommended for anyone looking for a cost effective way of obtaining genuine musical satisfaction from their record collection. Therefore, my advice is to nab a vintage one on ebay, if you can, and sit back and giggle out loud at just how talented this old timer is! :cool:

Marco.

P.S I'll take some pics and post them later.

Wakefield Turntables

15-12-2015, 15:42

It would certainly spank an Ortofon Black in the musicality stakes (which sounds rather sterile and 'hi-fi-like' in comparison)!

Ortofon black MC or MM?

Marco

15-12-2015, 15:46

MM, lol. As good as the M55E is, it's not in any way inside high-end MC territory! :eyebrows:

I've just made the necessary amendment.

Marco.

Marco

15-12-2015, 15:54

Within its class (and even well beyond that), however, the M55E is a superb performer - so much so that I'm considering trying it with a Jico SAS replacement stylus, to see if that raises the bar further still...

Therefore, watch this space! ;)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

15-12-2015, 15:58

Good write up. I'd purloin one myself but I've three big projects on the go....

dmckean

15-12-2015, 16:08

I bought one of these yesterday since V-M Audio Enthusiasts sells these NOS for only $55 with stylus.

http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/part_detail.asp?PNumberBase=M55E&SearchType=MfgNameCartridges&MfgName=Shure&Categories=

Marco

15-12-2015, 16:12

Cool. I thought you said you had one, though?

Handy to know, however, that you can get them from somewhere outside of ebay. Non-US buyers may incur tax and import duty, though. I was lucky to get mine from a UK seller :)

Marco.

dmckean

15-12-2015, 17:29

I want to see if the M44G body really is the same as the M55E and the stylus I have has over 1000 hours on it easily and this is cheaper than buy another one.

Marco

15-12-2015, 17:39

I want to see if the M44G body really is the same as the M55E...

Ah ok, that'll be interesting, so be Shure (lol) to let us know! :D

Marco.

Marco

15-12-2015, 21:38

Interesting old Shure catalogue here, from 1968, showing the M55E: https://shure.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/28008/0/filename/1968+Phonograph.pdf

Marco.

Marco

27-12-2015, 16:25

Ok, as promised, some pics of the old girl 'in action':

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/ArtofSound102/628c2487-e963-47e7-8119-040fb9a0e3a1.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/ArtofSound102/media/628c2487-e963-47e7-8119-040fb9a0e3a1.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/ArtofSound102/553573e9-d9bb-47a0-96ba-8dec1701fdcf.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/ArtofSound102/media/553573e9-d9bb-47a0-96ba-8dec1701fdcf.jpg.html)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/ArtofSound102/c0b4a600-247a-4568-a0da-7bc56c8c9f5f.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/ArtofSound102/media/c0b4a600-247a-4568-a0da-7bc56c8c9f5f.jpg.html)

I've been listening to it all through Christmas, and it sounds FAB! :cool:

Marco.

dmckean

27-12-2015, 19:56

Looks great Marco!

Marco

27-12-2015, 22:45

Cheers, Dave. Bargain of the century for me! :thumbsup:

Marco.

narabdela

28-12-2015, 08:51

Cheers, Dave. Bargain of the century for me! :thumbsup:

Marco.

Enjoy! Great underrated cartridges. I ran one in a TP13a many moons ago.

Marco

28-12-2015, 19:38

Cheers, Hugh. TBH, I don't overly miss any of my MCs, as the M55E just plays music so effortlessly and with such addictive an fun factor. No, it doesn't have the wide-open top end or filigree detailing of the likes of my Denon DL-S1, but that doesn't really matter, especially when it costs £90! :)

Marco.

Tea24

30-12-2015, 08:58

Thank you dmckean! I just ordered one from voice of music; at just under £50 including shipping it must be a steal & comes under the import duty barrier!

I look forward to your report on the Jico SAS with this , Marco, before I take the plunge. I have the Jico on a M97xE & it is very good indeed.

Marco

30-12-2015, 11:25

Nice one, Julian. I haven't heard an M97xE properly, so can't comment on what the Jico does in that context.

However, what I can say is that the M55E makes other Shure cartridges I've heard (bar the SC35C and M3D) sound somewhat 'ethereal' and 'hi-fi', or if you like, all 'airy-fairy' and detailed, but without much 'balls', get up and go, or 'fun factor'. I hope you can appreciate that terminology, and where I'm coming from there :)

The M55E is less of an 'audiophile's wet dream', and more for those who like to boogie on down (with the appropriate music), or extract the full emotional impact from their favourite tunes.

Marco.

SPS

30-12-2015, 15:11

K
Nice one, Julian. I haven't heard an M97xE properly, so can't comment on what the Jico does in that context.

However, what I can say is that the M55E makes other Shure cartridges I've heard (bar the SC35C and M3D) sound somewhat 'ethereal' and 'hi-fi', or if you like, all 'airy-fairy' and detailed, but without much 'balls', get up and go, or 'fun factor'. I hope you can appreciate that terminology, and where I'm coming from there :)

The M55E is less of an 'audiophile's wet dream', and more for those who like to boogie on down (with the appropriate music), or extract the full emotional impact from their favourite tunes.

Marco.
Marco, i have far too many cartridges of different types i should try out the m44 and m55 as i have a few of them somewhere, amd some nos stylus's in a box
and they are last cartridges i expected to see this type of review on... I have been meaning to try one of the g800 since you reviewed those...
Thanks...

Marco

30-12-2015, 15:18

SPS

30-12-2015, 16:39

Hi Steve,

Nice to see you checking in, mate. Hope all is well and that you're having a nice Christmas :)

No worries, always glad to help. As I've said, I very much enjoy revisiting these 'old timers' in a modern context, as I don't believe that when they were first introduced many people will have heard them achieve their full potential, by using them in general on poor quality T/Ts, tonearms, and with (most likely) even poorer quality phono stages.

Original styli, however, are must, because the 'replacement' ones produced now are crap in comparison.

Marco.

Thanks Marco, i look in most days but rarely post anywhere nowadays,
i know what i went through with the m3d and the box of different stylus that i amassed,
i also had a good session with ceramics earier in the year that suprised me, but there is alot required to get them just right, in the end i got fed up...
I will have a look at these old shure's tonight and see what there is
Cheers

Tea24

30-12-2015, 17:38

Cheers Marco

I quite see what your getting at; more 'oomph' all round by the sound of it. I will let you know what I think when it arrives & I get it up & running.

PaulStewart

30-12-2015, 17:53

Hi Steve,

Nice to see you checking in, mate. Hope all is well and that you're having a nice Christmas :)

No worries, always glad to help. As I've said, I very much enjoy revisiting these 'old timers' in a modern context, as I don't believe that when they were first introduced many people will have heard them achieve their full potential, by using them in general on poor quality T/Ts, tonearms, and with (most likely) even poorer quality phono stages.

Original styli, however, are must, because the 'replacement' ones produced now are crap in comparison.

Marco.

Quite..... I have here a battered old M55e which came off an old L75. Just put it on OL silver mounted on the the Technics SL120. Last time I listened to one it was on an SP25 mk2 going into a Phillips integrated in about 1969. Sounds a lot better now :)

Marco

30-12-2015, 18:19

Try a non-battered one with a minty stylus, Paul, and it'll blow you away! :)

Marco.

PaulStewart

30-12-2015, 18:35

Well electrically it seems fine and having cleaned the stylus it sounds bloody good. I'll order a NOS stylus or a Jico if there is one and have a listen. Always liked old Shure carts.

Marco

30-12-2015, 18:49

Hi Paul,

Nice one, mate. This is what you want (where I got mine): http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHN055E.html

Or if you fancy (arguably) the best: http://www.lpgear.com/product/eSHN055E.html

:cool:

LP Gear are great to deal with, too. Super-fast shipping!

Marco.

Jimbo

30-12-2015, 21:14

Marco

30-12-2015, 22:01

Yes :)

Marco.

Jimbo

30-12-2015, 22:36

Yes :)

Marco.

I have a brown bodied M44-7 Shure cartridge and think I may try the LP gear Jico SAS replacement stylus. Might be an interesting alternative to my 2M Black?

Marco

30-12-2015, 22:37

Given what I've heard from my M55 (essentially the same cartridge as yours), fitted with a standard NOS Shure stylus, I think it would royally spank the pants of a 2M Black! ;)

Marco.

Jimbo

30-12-2015, 22:42

Given what I've heard from my M55 (essentially the same cartridge as yours), fitted with a standard NOS Shure stylus, I think it would royally spank the pants of a 2M Black! ;)

Marco.

Glad I tuned into this thread as I was looking for something a bit alternative rather than going down the MC route and nearly went for Nagoaka MP500.

Going to order the Jico SAS at weekend so thanks for the link and the heads up on this cartridge.:cool:

Marco

30-12-2015, 22:48

No worries, Jim. Do let us know how you get on :)

Marco.

PaulStewart

31-12-2015, 00:49

Just pulled the trigger on the Jico SAS, watch this space :)

Jimbo

31-12-2015, 08:39

A rather nice in depth look at the M44-7 cartridge but similary applies to many Shure cartridges. Very nice website indeed!!
http://www.machozapp.com/features/needle-habit-preview

SPS

31-12-2015, 16:42

I have attached a few pages from farnells 'points on pickups' from 1968 a few may be interested
I have quite a few early cartridges i should try.. I should take some pics of what i have too,
Last night I dug out an early m44e with a decent original stylus which i will try over the next few days( once tomorrows headache has subsided ) and will report

Marco

01-01-2016, 09:44

Excellent, Steve. Always interesting seeing those old pics! Do let us know how you get on with the M44E. If the stylus is in good nick, you should a good sound :)

Marco.

PaulStewart

01-01-2016, 11:03

Jimbo

01-01-2016, 11:25

Had a look at the specs for the Shure M44-7 cartridge and it has 9.5 mV output which seems bit high compared to the M44G 6.2mV output.

Is this an issue I should be concerned about regarding SQ. It wont be an issue with my preamp as I know Glenn uses a Decca with a 10 mV output::eek:

Marco

01-01-2016, 11:55

Not really, although less coils turns, and subsequently, less mass/shorter signal path is always better, but in this instance (as we're comparing MMs, not MCs) not really a hill of beans :)

Marco.

Marco

01-01-2016, 11:58

Jimbo

01-01-2016, 16:34

OK just checked out the M44-7 and it was a bit high output and edgy with my system and cannot change the loadings etc so decided to try out the M55e - just ordered NOS via ebay unused with new stylus for £70.

Will try in stock form first before trying Jico SAS stylus.

Marco

01-01-2016, 21:25

Well, I can say for certain that the M55E doesn't sound 'edgy' in the slightest - it's a very smooth performer, but also a detailed and informative one :)

Marco.

Ducatiist

01-01-2016, 21:34

One of my fav cartridges from back in the day was the Goldring G800 of which I have 2 in good nick but needing new styli. I spoke to Dom at NWA about them, but as ever he wants silly money to do them. He was talking about ruby cantilever and fine line stylus, which interests me. I have to confirm this but I think Goldring yhemselves can do this for about half the NWA quote. I may get this done this year as 2017 will see me taking my three Koetsus to Japan for rebuilding. I'm planning to get the oldest Rosewood Signature rebuilt with a diamond cantilever.

Hi Paul,
I checked with Goldring about retipping a G800 with either standard or upgraded stylus...however the reply was "NO" as the cartridge is very old.
I got ESCO to put one of their preferred paratrace diamond tips on a genuine Goldring g800 stylus assembly.
They checked the suspension and cantilever before completing the work.
It looks smashing, but I haven't had chance to try it out yet.
Lead time for ESCO is quite long, but they are very professional and always kept me informed of the progress.
The cost of the work was very reasonable compared to Northwest Analogue.
Stu

Jimbo

01-01-2016, 21:44

Well, I can say for certain that the M55E doesn't sound 'edgy' in the slightest - it's a very smooth performer, but also a detailed and informative one :)

Marco.

Just what I,m looking for Marco, unfortunately I will have to wait a few weeks for my M55E as ebay estimated post date is 12 January!:(

Jimbo

02-01-2016, 11:22

Have done a fair bit of research on the Shure cartridges and found the M55E is very similar to the V15.

One tip that seems to be fairly common concerns the stylus fitting in the cartridge body. This can be a loose fit and as you found Marco with the stylus guard can introduce unwanted resonance. The trick is to use a tiny bit of blue tack between the plastic end of the stylus and the cartridge body.:)

Marco

02-01-2016, 12:10

Jimbo

02-01-2016, 17:43

The similarity between the V-15 is true, but much as I rate the V-15, I find the M55E rather more satisfying and musically interesting, plus it 'boogies' more. As such, I've owned a V-15 in the past, but have no inclination to get another one, but I certainly wouldn't say that about the M55E.

The other key difference I find, is that the V-15 is from the school of super-low VTF and high-compliance, and the M55E likes a fair bit of mass (tracks heavier, too), so you should bear that in mind. In that respect, you may find that adding more mass to the headshell of your VPI pays dividends. I certainly found that to be true when I fitted my M55E to a very solid 14g Denon headshell.

Indeed, when thinking about the reasons for the sonic differences between both cartidges, if you examine, say, a NOS Shure N55E stylus (such as I'm using), and compare it with the stylus used on a V-15, they are quite different, so that may account for the marked difference in sound between both cartridges, even though I believe that they share the same generator.

Marco.

Hi Marco, nice to get the benefit of your experience with the M55e cartridge as I am a Shure virgin:) I can add mass to my headshell as VPI do sell their own weights that fit the headshell perfectly. Any Idea what mass you now have on the end of your tonearm?

I am a tad concerned regarding the stylus fitted to this cartridge, the one I have ordered is apparently genuine NOS with unused stylus. However their are now poor copies of this stylus out their with unpolished elliptical diamonds that sound fine but remove your grooves slowly!!:eek:

I am thinking of going straight for a Jico SAS stylus which will certainly be polished and as I have read a very different stylus profile to the original fitted, hopefully delivering more perforfance? However the standard Jico replacement you are using sounds like its doing the trick anyway.:)

Marco

02-01-2016, 17:59

Hi Marco, nice to get the benefit of your experience with the M55e cartridge as I am a Shure virgin... I can add mass to my headshell as VPI do sell their own weights that fit the headshell perfectly. Any Idea what mass you now have on the end of your tonearm?

No problem, Jim. It's simply about relating our relevant experience and hoping that it may be of use to others :)

I'm using the M55E on a 14g Denon headshell, so that's approx how much mass you're talking about. You also have to factor in the difference in the effective mass between your VPI and my Ortofon arm, minus the headshell, so there's probably a few grams in that too, with yours likely being a touch lighter.

I am a tad concerned regarding the stylus fitted to this cartridge, the one I have ordered is apparently genuine NOS with unused stylus.

Got a link to the stylus you've bought? Quite simply, apart from a Jico SAS, I wouldn't use anything other than a genuine original NOS Shure item, as the rest in comparison will most likely be crap.

I am thinking of going straight for a Jico SAS stylus which will certainly be polished and as I have read a very different stylus profile to the original fitted, hopefully delivering more perforfance? However the standard Jico replacement you are using sounds like its doing the trick anyway

I'm not using a Jico replacement stylus, mate. I'm using a genuine NOS Shure one.

Marco.

Jimbo

02-01-2016, 18:55

No problem, Jim. It's simply about relating our relevant experience and hoping that it may be of use to others :)

I'm using the M55E on a 14g Denon headshell, so that's approx how much mass you're talking about. You also have to factor in the difference in the effective mass between your VPI and my Ortofon arm, minus the headshell, so there's probably a few grams in that too, with yours likely being a touch lighter.

Got a link to the stylus you've bought? Quite simply, apart from a Jico SAS, I wouldn't use anything other than a genuine original NOS Shure item, as the rest in comparison will most likely be crap.

I'm not using a Jico replacement stylus, mate. I'm using a genuine NOS Shure one.

Marco.

Would you kindly post up a link for the supplier of your stylus.:cool:

Marco

02-01-2016, 18:58

Here ya go, dude: http://www.lpgear.com/product/SHN055E.html

Ticks all the right boxes for me, although the Jico SAS may be better still....

Marco.

helma

02-01-2016, 19:40

One of my fav cartridges from back in the day was the Goldring G800 of which I have 2 in good nick but needing new styli. I spoke to Dom at NWA about them, but as ever he wants silly money to do them. He was talking about ruby cantilever and fine line stylus, which interests me. I have to confirm this but I think Goldring yhemselves can do this for about half the NWA quote. I may get this done this year as 2017 will see me taking my three Koetsus to Japan for rebuilding. I'm planning to get the oldest Rosewood Signature rebuilt with a diamond cantilever.

I have a Tenorel T-2001 which is the same cart as the G800, though the styli might be different. I just mounted it again, been a while since I last used it. It has something about it's sound that draws you in. I don't think it's the most neutral presentation but very enjoyable nonetheless. I have 3 different styli for mine and all retain that 'magical' quality though they otherwise sound fairly different from each other. The styli I'm currently using is an original NOS T-2001ED which is a nude mounted .2x.7 elliptical. Sounds fab expect perhaps a bit 'tizzy' in the treble, but I'm comparing against Ortofon MC-10 Supreme, so not exactly fair. If you keep an eye on eBay original T-2001ED (and the bonded T-2001D conicals) sometimes pop up and usually go for peanuts, I'd say worth a shot.

Jimbo

03-01-2016, 17:09

My eyesight is not great but having a look at these pics of my M44-7 shows why I think it did not sound too good after spending the last 30 years in a garage!:)

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1230_zpsz2wy3usr.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1230_zpsz2wy3usr.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1228_zpsdkztqgkp.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1228_zpsdkztqgkp.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1225_zpsv8amqiti.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1225_zpsv8amqiti.jpg.html)

Marco

03-01-2016, 17:23

It needs a new stylus, mate. However, the main body should be fine, despite the 'dents'. Clean the output pins though, to a shine with Brasso, then finish off with Isopropyl alcohol :)

Marco.

Jimbo

03-01-2016, 17:32

It needs a new stylus, mate. However, the main body should be fine, despite the 'dents'. Clean the output pins though, to a shine with Brasso, then finish off with Isopropyl alcohol :)

Marco.

The cartridge did actually work but the sound was :( Do you think internals could have been affected by damp?

I will give it another chance when I get a new stylus and then compare it with the M55e.

Will give the pins a good clean as you suggest although they don't look too bad.http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1226_zpscnd3hwny.jpg

Marco

03-01-2016, 22:22

Hi Jim,

Yup, hi-fi and dampness simply don't mix, so the conditions where the cartridge has been living won't have helped, especially also the gross fluctuations in temperature. I'm confident that the M55E will be a different ball game, especially with a 'posh' stylus fitted, such as a Jico SAS, if you're going that way :)

Marco.

Jimbo

04-01-2016, 19:39

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image.jpg2_zpswwghvqhe.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image.jpg2_zpswwghvqhe.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image.jpg1_zps2neydfxo.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image.jpg1_zps2neydfxo.jpg.html)http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/image.jpg1_zpsvm9fcnye.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/image.jpg1_zpsvm9fcnye.jpg.html)

A mint NOS M55e turned up today even with original stylus guard. Checked stylus under works microscope, certainly never been used so will try this before the Jico SAS.

Marco

04-01-2016, 19:52

Jimbo

04-01-2016, 20:04

Very nice - never seen that type of stylus guard before :)

That should be a different ball game from the one before. Dial in 1.7g and let us know how you get on! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Polish those pins still ;)

I think these metal stylus guards were on the early USA manufactured Shure cartridges before they introduced the plastic type. I have checked it over and no signs of use whatsoever. £70 off eBay so hope got a bargain. Looking forward to hooking it up��

Marco

04-01-2016, 20:13

Cool - did you import it from the States? :)

Marco.

Jimbo

04-01-2016, 20:16

Got it from chap up Newcastle and Tyne - NEBOland:) Came 10 days earlier than suggested delivery date so well pleased especially as it does look a totally original minter!

spendorman

04-01-2016, 20:24

Has anyone mentioned the M95HE? one of my favourites, prefer it to the M95ED and M75ED.

Marco

04-01-2016, 20:40

Got it from chap up Newcastle and Tyne - NEBOland:) Came 10 days earlier than suggested delivery date so well pleased especially as it does look a totally original minter!

That's a result! So when are you fitting the bugger? The sense of anticipation is killing me..... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Jimbo

04-01-2016, 20:48

Unfortunately it will be weekend before I can get it fitted so the anticipation is going to kill me too!:)

I will just have to make do and polish my pins till then:lol:

Marco

04-01-2016, 20:53

Well, I guess it beats polishing yer helmet! :D

Do a good job, I'll be around to inspect them [the pins, that is] later :eek: :eyebrows:

Marco.

SPS

05-01-2016, 00:23

I've had the m44e running for a couple of evenings,
On sunday after a little fettling it sounded very well,
Full of life and very similar in sound to the presentation of my cd player, this was a real surprise, i have quite a few shure cartridges and had really only got on with the m3d,

This evening i set up a couple of m3d's (one with a n21 stylus and one with the standard one) in sme type headshells with a bluetacked 10p on the top, and a vintage at13ea on another FR headshell, i wanted to compare the m3d to the 44, and also see how the AT peformed which i had seen good reviews on.

The 44 and the m3d with the 21 stylus sounded very similar to each other, it was hard to tell the difference.
after swapping to the At, the mid range went missing in comparison, that lasted for about 15 minutes to give it chance to sing .. But it didnt and will go back away.
Its got me thinking what some of the other old cartriges sound like. I will try a goldring g800 later in the week...
Cheers

walpurgis

05-01-2016, 00:37

Have you used an M75EJ2 or M91ED. Both are very nice sounding. Most favour the M75ED or ED2, but the M75EJ2 sounds just fine and is far less arm fussy.

My favourites from that era are the ADCs though.

A good ADC 10E Mk.IV will sound better than any Shure I've used. And compete with some very decent MCs. I used to swap between Decca 4RC, Ortofon SPU and ADC 10E Mk.IV and never had a favourite! Even though each sounds very different.

Marco

05-01-2016, 00:43

Nice one, Steve. Thought you'd like the old girl! The M55E really does shine when used in a modern context, through a quality system, the likes of which would've been an impossibility when it was originally introduced.

Trouble is then that people who experienced the M55E first time around only have their original memories, and if they were bad (for whatever reason), then they tend to dismiss the notion that things could be any different today, by using the cartridge in a different context, when in fact the opposite is more likely to be true! :)

What I like to try and do is dispel that myth, and pique folk's interest enough to revisit these classic cartridges, just as you did, and make some surprising discoveries - often indicating that not much REAL progress has occurred with cartridge performance in the intervening years; in fact in many ways we seem to have gone backwards.... :doh:

In that respect, I'd expect an M55, fitted with a Jico SAS stylus, to comfortably compete (and more often than not outperform) most MM cartridges produced today, pretty much at any price - and for those of us who value the highest SPPV (count me in), that's got to be good news! :cool:

I'm sure you'll also enjoy the G800... Btw, that one likes plenty of mass, just as the M3D does, so make sure you pop it in a nice heavy headshell, and if it has a conical stylus, track it at 2.5g. It also has a lower output than the M55E, but you can always turn things up and/or (since you're a seasoned DIYer), adjust the gain of your phono stage accordingly.

Marco.

Tea24

05-01-2016, 08:34

Marco, what after market stylus do you reckon for the G800? I got a cheapo, I forget from where, & it is ....well, forgetable!

SPS

05-01-2016, 08:46

O
Have you used an M75EJ2 or M91ED. Both are very nice sounding. Most favour the M75ED or ED2, but the M75EJ2 sounds just fine and is far less arm fussy.

My favourites from that era are the ADCs though.

A good ADC 10E Mk.IV will sound better than any Shure I've used. And compete with some very decent MCs. I used to swap between Decca 4RC, Ortofon SPU and ADC 10E Mk.IV and never had a favourite! Even though each sounds very different.

Thanks Geoff, the Adc is one i dont have , i have a few boxed nos m75's of different types which i will try, i had dismissed those as i thought they where more like the v15 in sound, i had tried my ortophon vms20, v15111, m97, m95 & decca blue a couple of years whilst comparing to the m3d, i much preferred the m3d but i cant say i did much fine tuning other than light headshells in the fr64s and setting up
I have a v1511 i should try, along with a quite few other cartridges that may be ok , there must be 50 or so in all, so lets see.
I should really set a few decks up with different tone arms .. And keep one set for the spu for comparison, but i dont really have the time at the moment, role on retirement

Marco

05-01-2016, 08:50

Hi Julian,

None - the aftermarket styli I tried were pretty crap in comparison with the NOS Goldring variety I ended up using.

With most of these vintage cartridges, getting them to sound right involves the use of mint NOS manufacturer-branded styli, as anything else is usually inferior, save something properly manufactured to high standards from scratch, from the likes of Jico.

I'd say that a good G800 is well able to compete with, or even perhaps outperform an M55E, although of course that's subjective, and there are many different variables to consider :)

Marco.

Tea24

05-01-2016, 10:42

Point taken, Marco!:)

spendorman

05-01-2016, 10:52

Must look in the loft, I think I have a couple of G800's on some Garrard SP25's, been up there more than 35 years.

Tea24

06-01-2016, 08:44

Well - the Shure M55E arrived today but...............Oh Dear! A dud!! Only one channel working.:(

However Gary of V-M Audio Enthusiasts is a very nice guy & is sending another body, so I suggested he sends another complete cartridge, which will give me a spare stylus. AT $37 for the stylus (& he kindly said he would take care of postage this time in view of the disappointment) , that can't be bad.:)

Marco

06-01-2016, 09:30

Ouch - sorry to hear about that, Julian. Good result though with the customer service... That's how problems should be dealt with - no 'fannying about'! Keep the customer happy :exactly:

Marco.

webby

06-01-2016, 11:37

narabdela

06-01-2016, 16:23

I have found the AT95e to also be a bit of a bargain at under 30 quid. Been testing it out this evening on headphones and am surprised at how well it performs. 30 quid is less than a night out on the toon.

I've never rated the AT95e. Easily bettered by most mid range vintage Shures, Ortofons, ADCs etc. They're pretty bomb-proof, but not very pleasant to listen to.

More "hi-fi" than musical imho.

struth

06-01-2016, 16:32

I've never rated the AT95e. Easily bettered by most mid range vintage Shures, Ortofons, ADCs etc. They're pretty bomb-proof, but not very pleasant to listen to.

More "hi-fi" than musical imho.

Put a shibata stylus on it and you may change your mind. Its a surprisingly good cart. The eliptical stylii holds it back

dmckean

06-01-2016, 17:20

Almost the entire Clear Audio MM line is based on the AT95.

narabdela

06-01-2016, 19:54

Almost the entire Clear Audio MM line is based on the AT95.

I rest my case. ;)

Marco

06-01-2016, 22:57

:lol: :D

Musically bereft? I really don't like Clearaudio kit at all. Sterility City. All hi-fi and no music....

Marco.

SPS

06-01-2016, 23:37

I'm sure you'll also enjoy the G800... Btw, that one likes plenty of mass, just as the M3D does, so make sure you pop it in a nice heavy headshell, and if it has a conical stylus, track it at 2.5g. It also has a lower output than the M55E, but you can always turn things up and/or (since you're a seasoned DIYer), adjust the gain of your phono stage accordingly.

Marco.
I checked my G800's inc a couple of new boxed ones, i set one up with an original new stylus it sounded good , after 1/2 hr or so sounded very similar to the 44e i had been using, i did a little tweaking to try and sort the slight sibilance, but it was not a problem, a few AB's with the shure confirmrd there was vey little between them , I have a few RSC stylus so i put one of those in , It sounded better to me than the golding stylus, which was a suprise, overall a good result

I also found a late goldring ceramic which looks like it needs a test run, but i'm too busy swapping between the goldring and the Shure at the moment...

Cheers...

walpurgis

06-01-2016, 23:56

Almost the entire Clear Audio MM line is based on the AT95.

Would I be correct in thinking the MM Shelters are too?

Marco

07-01-2016, 00:07

I checked my G800's inc a couple of new boxed ones, i set one up with an original new stylus it sounded good , after 1/2 hr or so sounded very similar to the 44e i had been using, i did a little tweaking to try and sort the slight sibilance, but it was not a problem, a few AB's with the shure confirmrd there was vey little between them , I have a few RSC stylus so i put one of those in , It sounded better to me than the golding stylus, which was a suprise, overall a good result

I also found a late goldring ceramic which looks like it needs a test run, but i'm too busy swapping between the goldring and the Shure at the moment...

Cheers...

Interesting, Steve. Did you make sure that you level matched things too, as there is a marked difference in output between both carts?

But they are rather good these old timers, aren't they (and likely better than many will remember them sounding first time round)? :eyebrows:

Marco.

dmckean

07-01-2016, 00:12

Would I be correct in thinking the MM Shelters are too?

That I don't know.

SPS

07-01-2016, 08:54

Interesting, Steve. Did you make sure that you level matched things too, as there is a marked difference in output between both carts?

But they are rather good these old timers, aren't they (and likely better than many will remember them sounding first time round)? :eyebrows:

Marco.

I adjusted the level so the volume was the same evey time, it was a suprise how close they where.

In the sixties these things where relatively expensive, by the 70's where installed on budget kit, and by the 80's, who in their right mind would buy a top end deck and tonearm and put a g800 on it,
..... ony us dafties 30 years on ?

What really suprised me was the detail that came through, I will have a good look later to see how the RSC tips compare to the goldrings, but i'm sure they dug deeper into the grove, with improved detail and extra crackle and pop

Jimbo

08-01-2016, 20:03

Ok so the M55e has now been fitted and is running in. I won't comment on how it sounds just yet.:)

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1235_zps9xtz2vxi.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1235_zps9xtz2vxi.jpg.html)
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k424/Spendorsp2/IMG_1240_zps3htqaoh1.jpg (http://s326.photobucket.com/user/Spendorsp2/media/IMG_1240_zps3htqaoh1.jpg.html)

helma

08-01-2016, 21:16

Would I be correct in thinking the MM Shelters are too?

No, the Shelter 201 at least is based on some other japanese body design from decades past. If I recall correctly a variation on the theme is also available as Sumiko Pearl, and has been available under many many brands over the decades. I think the original might have been made by Osawa or Nagaoka or whatever.... the Japanese corporate scene with the limitless OEM manufacturing is confusing to say the least. Pretty sure it's not an Audio Technica though.

Marco

08-01-2016, 21:32

Ok so the M55e has now been fitted and is running in. I won't comment on how it sounds just yet.:)

Looks good, Jim... Come on, spill! ;)

Marco.

Jimbo

08-01-2016, 23:02

Well I was not expecting the sound I am getting from this cartridge and only after only 4 hours running in. This is far superior to the M44-7 in every way.

I am still running through a load of my favourite material and it is quite addictive.

I cannot disagree with you Marco on anything you mentioned in your write up of this cartridge, it is exactly as you said in your review before Christmas. Obviously I need to run it in a bit more but even now it sounds simply superb!

I will write up my own detailed review when I have had more time with it but my initial impression is that is amazing for the money...quite astonishing!:)

struth

08-01-2016, 23:08

Yeah, the seagull one is hard to find nowadays..... threads like this dont help ;)

Jimbo

08-01-2016, 23:22

I think I fell lucky on this one Grant as it is a mint NOS M55e with original stylus and having a look under the microscope I could see it was definitely unused unlike some NOS I have had off eBay in the past.

Marco

08-01-2016, 23:36

In the sixties these things where relatively expensive, by the 70's where installed on budget kit, and by the 80's, who in their right mind would buy a top end deck and tonearm and put a g800 on it,
..... ony us dafties 30 years on ?

How very true, in all respects!

What really suprised me was the detail that came through, I will have a good look later to see how the RSC tips compare to the goldrings, but i'm sure they dug deeper into the grove, with improved detail and extra crackle and pop

Interesting about the RSC tips... But yes, the M55E isn't 'cuddly' sounding or old-fashioned in the slightest. It's detailed, but not 'in yer face/falsely spotlit' detailed, like most modern cartridges are. It digs plenty of info out of the grooves, but always in a thoroughly musical sounding, non-fatiguing way! :)

Marco.

Marco

08-01-2016, 23:38

narabdela

09-01-2016, 10:14

Loving this thread. :thumbsup:

Jimbo

09-01-2016, 11:14

Listening again this morning after long session last night and I can now appreciate what this cartridge can and cannot do. Again I can only reinforce what Marco has already said. The detail is there but not in your face unlike my previous cartridge the 2M Black which sounds hyper detailed and spotlit in comparison. The M55e does fall short on soundstage width but not depth but addresses the music as a cohesive whole, it doesn't separate out the individual components of the music and instruments in a analytical way. I can see where your coming from here Marco regarding the 2M.

Certainly the 2M has more detail but this is at the expense of sounding edgy and certainly highlights surface noise and clicks and pops to a much greater degree, I guess thats the price you pay for a shibata stylus?

Musically the M55e is great and has a rich presentation of the music. I would liken the M55e to a good bottle of bordeaux where as the 2M is a fine Burgundy.:)

More listening and running in to do before I can give an absolute verdict.

Marco

09-01-2016, 12:30

I think you've captured the essence of the M55E rather well, Jim :)

It's just stupidly good for the money, isn't it, and rather makes a mockery of just how much real progress has been made in cartridge design in the last 40-odd years!

Yes, it has its limitations, as indeed all cartridges do, but boy is it a rather satisfying music-maker... You just lower her into the grooves and bask in the music, without sitting there analysing for 'hi-fi effects', which for me is what it's all about. The Shure is 'accurate', but accurate musically, not simply objectively, in terms of measurements, and as such it has a very well-judged balance of virtues.

The 2M Black, in comparison, is very clean and hyper-detailed sounding, but with it (to my ears, certainly in comparison with what I consider represents the real sound of instruments and voices) sounds falsely 'hyped up' and clinical - and that type of 'hi-fi sound' is all too familiar to me, as it largely represents what you get these days with 'high-end' cartridges (especially those with 'fancy' profile styli), presumably because it's 'fashionable', and manufacturers consider that such a sound is what people want...

I disagree. I just think that folks have been 'conditioned' into considering that that type of sonic presentation is 'correct', when in reality, for me, it simply isn't. Initially, it can be 'impressive' to listen to with really good recordings, but becomes fatiguing after a while, and simply makes your records sound like CDs, but not necessarily in a good way!

However, not all modern cartridges sound that way...

As an interesting experiment, what someone should do is compare a 2M Black with a Nagaoka MP500, and then they would truly 'get' where I'm coming from here, as their respective voicing is quite different. Essentially, the Shure M55E mimics much of what the MP500 does, in terms of addictive musicality, but at considerably less cost. You just have to get your head around how stuff should actually sound, and thus be able to differentiate between a 'falsely impressive' sound, and a realistic one.

What's really going to be interesting, if you choose to go there, is whether fitting a Jico SAS stylus will cause the M55 to lose some of its beguiling musicality in favour of a more 'hi-fi' type of sound, or if the Jico allows the cartridge to maintain its magic in that area, but simply improves on its hi-fi aspects. If it can do that, then the M55, thus partnered, will *really* be a giant killer!!

:exactly:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

09-01-2016, 12:47

So would you recommend this cart for Jazz for example? I have very analytical carts but sometimes immersion in my music is what I'm after, does this fit the bill?

Marco

09-01-2016, 12:59

Yes, but a 103 (properly set up and partnered) would do that even better. Depends how much you want to spend on that aspect of your system :)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

09-01-2016, 13:09

Yes, but a 103 (properly set up and partnered) would do that even better. Depends how much you want to spend on that aspect of your system :)

Marco.

Ive already got the 103R, nice magnesium headshell and some very nice ortofon 5N silver headshell leads. It makes a very nice noise, I've already got the Shure V15 mk3 and decent stylus (did I just say that :)), but wondered if this new "wonder" cart could better them??

Jimbo

09-01-2016, 15:49

Ok a bit more on the M55e which seems to be settling very nicely. I have compared this against my 2M black as I have lived with this cartridge for the last two years and have enjoyed it very much although it does have its faults.

Anyway back to the Shure NOS M55e. Fitting the cartridge was a breeze and it seems to work well with my VPI JMW 9t tone arm which is both uni pivot and damped internally. It can be adjusted in every plane so getting the optimum set up with the M55e is easy. Don,t feel I need to add any mass to this tonearm as the weight and heft to the sound is even more than my 2M!

I found the cartridge has a rich tonal midrange with enough detail but not in your face hyper analytical stuff. The midrange is fat and rich, almost lush but not in a vintage way. It is also especially good with vocals which sound natural and rich. I have to agree with the musical aspect you have mentioned Marco, this is certainly better than the 2M.

Where it can't compete with the 2M is in detail and micro detail and I would say imaging. The 2M is almost holographic and as I illuded to earlier it picks out all aspects of the performance in stark contrast which is similar to modern digital forms of sound reproduction. It makes me think the 2M is voiced to match CD. The M55e is smoother, and dare I say more analogue sounding. It gives you the full rich vinyl experience and is completely non fatiguing.

The M55e loves the partnering with the Croft 25r valve amp and sounds more powerful and dynamic than the 2M, at least with my system. I think someone mentioned on another post the loading in my Croft may not be an ideal partner for the 2m so I may not be getting as smooth a sound as I could. I certainly feel the M55e works better in this respect.
I have always been a bit anxious with the 2M as it did sound a bit harsh and sizzled in the top end sometimes with the odd flash of sibilance.

Finally I must say the M55e does sound very clean and solid and as I speak the soundstage has opened up a bit, maybe there is more to come.

I have just played a track some of us listened to at NEBO5 using Marcos DS-L1 and I remember how spine tingling this came across with the mega system we put together that night. Dare I say the M55e has given me a closer glimpse to that than my previous cartridge.

I can only imagine what a JICO SAS stylus may do with the M55e but hopefully it won't egg the pudding as I do intend to go down this route before turning my attention to a MC cartridge.

I would definitely recommend this cartridge to anyone who wants a rich musical experience. If you are a detail hunting, hyper defined recording junky don't bother. Spend £500 on a 2m rather than the £75 on a M55e.:)

By no means is this cartridge perfect but considering its price it is truly a giant killer. :)

Firebottle

10-01-2016, 09:12

Excellent write up James, glad it's getting the boogie factor going. Knowing your system I bet it's superb :yay:

Jimbo

10-01-2016, 10:05

Excellent write up James, glad it's getting the boogie factor going. Knowing your system I bet it's superb :yay:

To be honest Alan I was not expecting too much from this cartridge but it has certainly exceeded expectations!

Jimbo

13-01-2016, 20:07

M55e now run in and sounding so dynamic and gutsy - err quite a bit more than the 2M but not quite as refined or detailed.

However next week I shall be elevating the M55e hopefully beyond the 2M black with my JICO SAS stylus which is in the post.

Bloody hell this M55e has got balls.:eek:

Marco

13-01-2016, 20:22

"Progress", eh? :doh: :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Jimbo

13-01-2016, 20:44

As many of us have found in HIFi - the latest shiny new thing is not always the best! :)

SPS

13-01-2016, 22:29

Y
M55e now run in and sounding so dynamic and gutsy - err quite a bit more than the 2M but not quite as refined or detailed.

However next week I shall be elevating the M55e hopefully beyond the 2M black with my JICO SAS stylus which is in the post.

Bloody hell this M55e has got balls.:eek:
Cant wait to hear how it sounds, i may get one for my 44e if yours improves things further

In saying that i still have a g800 playing, and was glad to find a new old g800e which i bought a few years ago and had forgotten about, still to try

Jimbo

14-01-2016, 21:34

Just a taste of what the Jico SAS stylus can do in and old Shure cartridge:eyebrows:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/can-putting-jico-v15xmr-stylus-replacement-turn-shure-m97xe-v15xmr#ET3x1oATdxuXDqux.97

rubber duck

14-01-2016, 22:10

Well done for bringing the M97xE back into the thread! What I think is more interesting about the SAS stylus here is the discussion that follows, in particular a rising high frequency.

Marco

14-01-2016, 22:16

Yes, that seems typical of 'posh styli', and one of the trade-offs of their more, shall we say, 'revealing nature'. There are many who consider, for example, that the Denon DL-103 is universally improved by replacing the stock spherical stylus with a line-contact type.

I fundamentally disagree. Yes, there are undoubted improvements gained in some areas, but there are also some trade-offs. In audio, one is very rarely treated to a 'free lunch'... ;)

Marco.

rubber duck

14-01-2016, 22:23

As an interesting experiment, what someone should do is compare a 2M Black with a Nagaoka MP500, and then they would truly 'get' where I'm coming from here, as their respective voicing is quite different. Essentially, the Shure M55E mimics much of what the MP500 does, in terms of addictive musicality, but at considerably less cost. You just have to get your head around how stuff should actually sound, and thus be able to differentiate between a 'falsely impressive' sound, and a realistic one.

I found this very interesting Marco. I've just spent a weekend listening to an MP500 on loan from another AoS member (while I decide if I want to keep or sell my brand new, unopened MP500). I bought that cart largely on the recommendations here. I was initially impressed by the clarity and transparency of the MP500 but going back to my Shure M97xE was a relief in many ways. Yes, the MP500 is the more impressive cart in hi-fi terms but the M97xE sounds more musically convincing and engaging - more body and drive. Where I found the MP500 struggled to get my foot tapping, the M97xE gets me off the sofa singing and dancing. Anyone interested in a brand new MP500?

Marco

14-01-2016, 22:24

Oh, as for the M97XE, well as the article says:

Rumor has it that it turns the warm, soft and wonderful sounding M97xE into a killer cartridge...

And:

The presentation was smooth and deep, with an overall warm tonal balance. Bass was somewhat rubbery and soft and the cymbal transients were indistinct and lacked grit and shimmer but believe me it was sufficiently pleasant and involving considering the price.

Indeed... I find the M97XE an ok, but ultimately rather 'safe' sounding thing, and a trifle boring - everything which the (much superior) vintage M55E (fitted with NOS Shure stylus) isn't, and indeed quite the opposite! As I said earlier, 'progress', eh? ;)

Marco.

Marco

14-01-2016, 22:39

I found this very interesting Marco. I've just spent a weekend listening to an MP500 on loan from another AoS member (while I decide if I want to keep or sell my brand new, unopened MP500). I bought that cart largely on the recommendations here. I was initially impressed by the clarity and transparency of the MP500 but going back to my Shure M97xE was a relief in many ways. Yes, the MP500 is the more impressive cart in hi-fi terms but the M97xE sounds more musically convincing and engaging - more body and drive. Where I found the MP500 struggled to get my foot tapping, the M97xE gets me off the sofa singing and dancing. Anyone interested in a brand new MP500?

Well, as ever it could simply be a matter of taste/preference [which is fine] - or you weren't successfully able to hear the MP500 at its best.

Perhaps it was a mismatch in your system, or your tonearm and/or phono stage didn't like it? Who knows... Your description of the Nagaoka certainly differs rather wildly from what I've heard from it, but that's cool :)

If that's the case, you certainly wouldn't like an Ortofon 2M Black! :eek:

For me, a good M55E pisses all over an M97XE, and an MP500 is a rather more musically rewarding listen than a 2M Black, which essentially was the point I was making, and rather different from yours.

Marco.

rubber duck

14-01-2016, 22:50

Yes, it's all a matter of perspective. If someone is used to a bright MC sound (or CD) the Shure will be warm in the midband. As for soft and rubbery bass, the M97xE is supreme on rock and the lower frequencies tell me more about bass instruments and how they are played than other carts I've owned, and certainly more than the MP500.

There's nothing wrong with the MP500 and like I said, it is very impressive in hi-fi terms. I used a modded RB250 and an Audio Note Arm 1. Phono is my Croft 25 modded by Glenn. If I have time and the inclination I guess I could try to replicate these results in a completely different system though from experience this is unlikely to dramatically alter my impressions. Perhaps you haven't heard the M97xE at its best, e.g. fully run in and with low capacitance cables?

Marco

14-01-2016, 23:05

Yup, I do agree with what you've said, and I'm also in the camp of preferring musical sounding 'non-CD like' cartridges, so we're singing from the same hymn sheet there. As such, I'm pretty certain that you'd take an MP500 over a 2M Black.

You should also try and obtain a mint M55E (with NOS stylus), as given your sonic proclivities, I suspect you'd love it! :)

As for the M97XE, it's quite a while since I heard one, so I wouldn't claim to be an 'expert' on it, although I do possess a fairly retentive memory for these things. However, the one I heard would've certainly been run-in, as it belonged to a friend, and the cables were definitely low-cap, as that's all I'd ever use.

Marco.

walpurgis

14-01-2016, 23:09

If someone is used to a bright MC sound (or CD)

Wot dat den?

Neither my MCs or CDs sound "bright". They just sound 'right'. Granted, some MCs can be bright, just as some MMs can. Only a poor CD setup would sound bright in my experience.

rubber duck

14-01-2016, 23:26

You should also try and obtain a mint M55E (with NOS stylus), as given your sonic proclivities, I suspect you'd love it! :)

Hi Marco, I have no reason to question your musical aesthetics. The reason I joined AoS was because I trusted your judgement on a few key components I was interested in, in particular Croft and the SL1200.

I'll keep a look out for the M55E, there doesn't seem to be too many although the replacement stylus seems readily available.

What's the verdict on the M44G? Sorry if this has already been covered.

Marco

14-01-2016, 23:40

Cheers, Jeff. I feel suitably honoured, lol! :)

In terms of the M44G, Jimbo's heard one recently, and compared it with his M55E, where he found that the former wasn't in the same league as the latter, sounding distinctly edgy and forward in comparison. I suspect much of that's to do with the ridiculously high output of the M44G, which really doesn't work in revealing hi-fi systems.

Marco.

dmckean

14-01-2016, 23:47

The M44G measured identically in inductance and impedance to the M55E body I have. I've been trying to track down an older style M55E body like Marco and James have but I've been unsuccessful. Threads like this certainly do not help. I'm sure I'll find one eventually.

dmckean

14-01-2016, 23:49

Marco,

Jimbo was using the M447, which is a different body.

dmckean

14-01-2016, 23:54

And one more thing, comparing the M97XE and the MP500 is like comparing Denon and Grado. Way, way different, but it's possible to like both.

Barry

15-01-2016, 00:04

Late to this thread, but just want to say the Shure M55E was the first real quality cartridge I had. Before the M55E I was using an M3D, but the 55E was a noticeable improvement. Bought in 1969 and used in SME arm (in fact I chose the 55E, because SME showed one mounted in their arm in their advertisements) it was replaced with a V15 Mk.II (Improved) in 1972.

I still have an M55E and having read enthusiastic reports of the JICO styli, would like to try one.

There are many 'vintage' fixed-coil cartridges worth investigating. Most will know of Decca, Stanton and Goldring, but I would like to put a good word in for ADC, AKG and B&O designs as well.

walpurgis

15-01-2016, 00:12

I would like to put a good word in for ADC, AKG and B&O designs as well.

Never got around to using AKG and B&O, agree on ADC though. I have a few earlier examples and they sound sublime.

Marco

15-01-2016, 00:17

Marco,

Jimbo was using the M447, which is a different body.

Ah I see.. Here is a vintage M44MG (without stylus):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SHURE-M44MG-TURNTABLE-PHONO-CARTRIDGE-without-stylus-/151937700099?hash=item2360315103

And also an M44C, whatever that is, with a bent cantilever:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shure-M44C-Cartridge-and-Stylus-with-Bent-Cantilever-/111866748557?hash=item1a0bc71e8d

Perhaps one of those would be of interest? :)

Marco.

dmckean

15-01-2016, 00:23

Ah I see.. Here is a vintage M44MG (without stylus):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-SHURE-M44MG-TURNTABLE-PHONO-CARTRIDGE-without-stylus-/151937700099?hash=item2360315103

And also an M44C, whatever that is, with a bent cantilever:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shure-M44C-Cartridge-and-Stylus-with-Bent-Cantilever-/111866748557?hash=item1a0bc71e8d

Well the M44C means conical stylus but it's the wrong color, so that's a M55E stylus with a bent cantilever. I'll try and bid on that one.

The other is actually a M44MG, I have no idea what that is and I'll have to read about it.

Jimbo

15-01-2016, 06:43

The M44-7 has a much higher output (9.5mV) than the M44G(6.2 mV).

M44-7 marketed at DJ's I believe.:lol:

rubber duck

15-01-2016, 09:10

And one more thing, comparing the M97XE and the MP500 is like comparing Denon and Grado. Way, way different, but it's possible to like both.

You mean the M97xE and MP500 are like Grado and Denon? I'm impressed with the MP500 but prefer the M97xE.

Tea24

17-01-2016, 15:55

Jimbo

17-01-2016, 18:17

Well, the replacement NOS M55E arrived from the States yesterday, together with a spare stylus (Many Thanks to Gary from V-M Audio Enthusiasts in Michigan; no quibble replacement of duff first one and friendly with it:cheers:).

Spent this afternoon setting it up carefully and I have so far only played a few of those 1970s discs which were made to show you what stereo could do. I've got a couple & find them useful for evaluating carts.

Well this little baby certainly rocks!:):):). I LIKE what I hear LOTS:D

Thanks Marco for bringing it to our attention, I owe you one:cool:; I think it's going to be a giant killer. And all for $102.:stalks:

I wonder what the Jico stylus will make of it. Jimbo, I can't wait for a report when you get yours.

Glad you found it rocks Julian, it was certainly a surprise for me as I was not expecting what this cartridge can do! Marco has a very good pair of ears and i know where he is coming from when he described what he found over christmas with this little wonder.

Yes the JICO SAS is also coming to me from the states, Las Vegas in fact. I have had fun tracking it via UPS. It went to 11 depots before flying out of Los Angeles. It is now on its way to me from London and should be on my desk Monday or Tuesday morning. I will give it a full run and evaluation next weekend!:)

Anyone wanting this cartridge should probably try the States now as I think most NOS have gone in Europe :(