View Full Version : Alternative platters ?
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 07:30
Looking to change my platter :eyebrows:
1210mk11
I see Mike New does the new ETP design
Anyone tried one ?
Any alternative makes available ?
I have been thinking about this for the future upgrade path, and I think I have narrowed my choice down the the Funk Firm Achroplat. I am sure that by the time I get round to buying one, there will be something better out on the market.
sq225917
28-10-2013, 08:59
Moderate mass, non magnetic, self damping and a similar material impedance to vinyl records, I think one would struggle conceive of a notionally better platter than the Funk one.
Ammonite Audio
28-10-2013, 10:07
Has anyone compared any of these über platters with the standard one plus Funk Achromat simply bonded into place using a thin smear of Vaseline (as Funk recommend)? Having been through the Technics thing, I am convinced that its shortcomings are partly due to structural weaknesses in the part of the chassis where the bearing is fixed, and in the platter itself which (on a microgroove scale) would seem to be rather floppy. It would be fascinating to subject the standard platter to laser scanning structural analysis. The chassis weakness is partly addressed by the use of a Mike New bearing, which itself provides structural integrity (up to a point) to the chassis in the bearing well. Floppiness aside, there does not appear to be much wrong with the standard platter that can't be fixed with a strengthening layer on top like an Achromat. Someone in the States produced a machined plastic (I can't remember what sort) mat that actually bolted to the original platter - I have no idea how this sounds in practice, but in terms of engineering and design seems to be a good thing to do.
Anyway, just my thoughts which are not intended to criticise platters from either Funk Firm or Mike New.
RobbieGong
28-10-2013, 10:48
Looking to change my platter :eyebrows:
1210mk11
I see Mike New does the new ETP design
Anyone tried one ?
Any alternative makes available ?
The Mike New ETP is top notch and I'm very happy with it. I tried different mats but found the best and most right sound to my ears was with the stock techie softer 3mm mat (not the horrid rock had 5mm techie 'heavy' mat). Mike posted a very early review from someone who was one of the first to 'test' the ETP platter where they too expressed best result to their ears being with the stock 3mm softer mat. The ETP feels reassuring solid, is well made and non resonant. It has a nice weight to it but no where near the mass of Mikes copper bonded platters (which some feel might be a bit too massy). John (Prestonchipfryer) purchased his ETP before I did and we shared a few pm's before I took the plunge. I was in no doubt that it would be an improvement over the stock platter and it most definately is. The funk firm platter as owned by Marco, Martin T and others is also said to be very good too. Swapping out trying different platters isnt an option for most - ultimately its about taking a punt as either of these will be better than stock option. :)
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 10:54
I phoned Funk today and they said as I use a mike new bearing they think the bearing taper is bigger so the funk wont fit
I just ordered a Mike NEW ETP :eyebrows:
Marco uses a Funk platter with a MN bearing I believe...
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 11:03
Marco uses a Funk platter with a MN bearing I believe...
Strange :scratch: unless they made one special for Marco
Is Marcos the original or the new MK2 that come out
Funk quoted me £840
Mike New £605 + the UK extras :(
Ammonite Audio
28-10-2013, 11:04
Marco uses a Funk platter with a MN bearing I believe...
So does MartinT
Strange :scratch: unless they made one special for Marco
Is Marcos the original or the new MK2 that come out
Funk quoted me £840
Mike New £605 + the UK extras :(
Don't MRCU sell the MN bearing for 450 quid or thereabouts Al? :scratch:
I just ordered a Mike NEW ETP :eyebrows:
Linky?:cool:
Don't MRCU sell the MN bearing for 450 quid or thereabouts Al? :scratch:
They're talking about platters mate, not bearings.
Mental isn't it?
£650 for a platter, is it me?
RobbieGong
28-10-2013, 11:20
They're talking about platters mate, not bearings.
Mental isn't it?
£650 for a platter, is it me?
I hear ya Tony - Mike New bearing £465ish, ETP £650 aprox, (funk quoted £840 for one of their platters) :eek: then there's external power supply, cartridge, decent arm - Yep ! It's scary but in my experience worth it There are so many variables to be considered and it's not like these items are mass produced which would bring cost down.
Just go easy, dont try to do it all at once, enjoy the music and dont lose too much sleep ! ;)
They're talking about platters mate, not bearings.
Mental isn't it?
£650 for a platter, is it me?
Subliminal insertion of the word 'bearing' after Mike New I guess :lol:
T'is a lot of dosh in't it. I was angling for a Vantage Audio platter which was a little more accessible pricewise, until they went tits up :eyebrows:
I just ordered a Mike NEW ETP :eyebrows:
Bet you are glad you did all this research first and didn't rush in to anything...
I hear ya Tony - Mike New bearing £465ish, ETP £650 aprox, (funk quoted £840 for one of their platters) :eek: then there's external power supply, cartridge, decent arm - Yep ! It's scary but in my experience worth it There are so many variables to be considered and it's not like these items are mass produced which would bring cost down.
Just go easy, dont try to do it all at once, enjoy the music and dont lose too much sleep ! ;)
I'm going for a arm upgrade, either a SH Jelco or a stock arm re-wire job. I can't see me going down the MC road but you never know which is why I'm veering towards the Jelco rather than stock re-wire.
After that though I'm done.
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 11:50
They're not mass produced. Very much hand crafted. The old Funk platter is used by Marco and others with the Mike New bearing. Goodness only knows what Arthur has been smoking - or if there is a difference, but I think Marco, Neil and Martin (at least 2 of whom have MN bearings) were due to try the new Funk platter. I trust it was Arthur you spoke to Al, and not the tea lady. Apart from platter material itself, the machining process and stressing and the likes, there is the issue of balance made tricky by the need for castings or machinings (the stock techie is cast), and the consequent affect on the servo loading.
Anyway - the bearing fit is only a hub - so given the "hand made" element will be easy to do a "Mike New Special". But I would be near certain there is no difference and one size fits all.
Although I still haven't seen a pic in the public domain, I know Neil has one to evaluate, so it can no longer be a NATO secret, that Arthur has moved onto composite materials from Acrylic this time, using bonded glass (using some special glue he keeps hidden in a draw) in itself bonded to acrylic. Dead. Rigid. Made me want one for my PT - which reminds me I need to chase up on this.
Of course, as I have noted before, by the time you have bought a platter, bearing, power supply, arm, feet and mat, you could have bought another turntable. It's no longer an SL1210 - just a custom build using a technics 2nd-hand DD motor :)
There are other alternatives at the lower end of the price range.
Inspire HiFi will sell you just the platter off one of there Technics based TT’s.
They do a solid Alloy job which is in the price area of those already mentioned but they also do a modified Techie platter for about £250 like this one.
http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz275/frankyc2003/20131015_210543_zps95e7e9f2.jpg
I am personally looking at the possibility of adapting a Pro-Ject RPM 9 Platter and bearing to work with the Technics Motor/Magnet arrangement. Its early days and I need some bits to take accurate measurements, but if it's feasible would make an interesting alternative approach – 38mm Acrylic platter with an inverted bearing running on a 10mm ceramic tipped spindle! :eyebrows:
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 12:07
I'm going for a arm upgrade, either a SH Jelco or a stock arm re-wire job. I can't see me going down the MC road but you never know which is why I'm veering towards the Jelco rather than stock re-wire.
After that though I'm done.
There's another thread on here discussing arm wires - with a significant number concluding it is not the most cost effective thing to do. I find a certain wry amusement here (it is mostly the cable-phobic coming to that conclusion). I am not keen on getting carried away with cable "phoo", as I think many realise, but I think speaker cables important, and IC's for real, surely the most real of all the IC's, and the one which is most likely to affect the tiny wee signals that travel down to the amplifier is the tonearm cable. That said - assuming the original wiring is not faulty, improving the wiring on an arm is not where most of the improvement is to be had. It's not where there is the most bang for buck. When I sent my dieing Mission 774 down to A K for a rewire and got an F5 back, the difference in sound between the 2 arms had nothing to do with the wires used in the F5. Not irrelevant - but the final icing on the cake. Spending any significant amount on rewiring a "basic" arm (and I think most would accept the stock arm on the Techie falls into that category) is not going to change it into an SMEV or a Grace, nor an Fx2.
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 12:12
This link goes to Mikes web site
http://www.mikenewaudio.com/
And this is the ETP platter I have ordered
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 12:13
Bet you are glad you did all this research first and didn't rush in to anything...
How do you know how long I have been looking prior to posting this topic :scratch:
There are other alternatives at the lower end of the price range.
Inspire HiFi will sell you just the platter off one of there Technics based TT’s.
They do a solid Alloy job which is in the price area of those already mentioned but they also do a modified Techie platter for about £250 like this one.
That's interesting Ken, thank you. The other reason I like the Vantage platter is because it looks like the standard item ;)
They're talking about platters mate, not bearings.
Mental isn't it?
£650 for a platter, is it me?
Well... Let's put this into perspective: how much do you think Linn would charge for a brand new platter (top and sub) for an LP12 - or how much would SME, Kuzma, Clearaudio (or any other high-end T/T manufacturer) charge for a replacement platter for one of their turntables, if you wanted one for whatever reason, and they were willing to supply you?
My guess is a damn sight more than £650! ;)
The (bespoke-made) Funk Firm platter for the Technics is every bit as high-quality an item as that belonging to any of the above T/Ts.
Marco.
Well... Let's put this into perspective: how much do you think Linn would charge for a brand new platter (top and sub) for an LP12 - or how much would SME, Kuzma, Clearaudio (or any other high-end T/T manufacturer) charge for a replacement platter for one of their turntables, if you wanted one for whatever reason, and they were willing to supply you?
My guess is a damn sight more than £650! ;)
The (bespoke) Funk Firm platter for the Technics is every bit as high-quality an item as any of the above.
Marco.
Makes no odds if one doesn't have that kind of money to throw about though Marco. As with buying any component, one must be realistic. Any improvement in SQ is going to be good for the soul so if that goal can be attained for less money then it is a no-brainer ;)
I completely agree, Dave.
The point I was making to Tony is that the price of the Funk platter is no more "mental" than any other - indeed, compared with some, it's likely to be rather 'sane'! ;)
Marco.
How do you know how long I have been looking prior to posting this topic :scratch:
Your OP suggests that it wasn't very long if you were not already aware of the Funk option - there has been quite extensive discussion of it on this very forum (and other alternatives)!
Audio Al
28-10-2013, 12:34
Your OP suggests that it wasn't very long if you were not already aware of the Funk option - there has been quite extensive discussion of it on this very forum (and other alternatives)!
I was aware of the Funk platter but not the price hence the phone call, its not on funks web site
Seems strange I have to justify posting
Will add further comments later
I completely agree, Dave.
The point I was making to Tony is that the price of the Funk platter is no more "mental" than any other - indeed, compared with some, it's likely to be rather 'sane'! ;)
Marco.
Personally I was in the same boat regarding Mikes bearing however since he went into partnership with David Brooks the price of his bearing has dropped to a more attainable level, which changes things a little. If someone were to bring to market a replacemeent acrylic platter for the Techie priced around the 250 to 300 quid mark I reckon they'd be snapped up :)
If someone were to bring to market a replacemeent acrylic platter for the Techie priced around the 250 to 300 quid mark I reckon they'd be snapped up :)
Indeed, although it may or may not perform to the same standard as the Funk one. It also *could* sound worse than the original Technics platter, if the design has not been thought out properly.
On the other hand, you might be lucky and it could be the best thing since sliced bread. It depends on whether you can afford to speculate with £300, in order to find out... ;)
Me? I'd save up a while longer and buy a known quantity that has been proven to work - whether that known quantity was a Funk platter or one from Mike New.
Marco.
Indeed, although it may or may not perform to the same standard as the Funk one. It also *could* sound worse than the original Technics platter, if the design has not been thought out properly.
On the other hand, you might be lucky and it could be the best thing since sliced bread. It depends on whether you can afford to speculate with £300, in order to find out... ;)
Me? I'd save up a while longer and buy a known quantity that has been proven to work - whether that known quantity was a Funk platter or one from Mike New.
Marco.
Fair enough. I'm not slighting either manufacturer by the way, this is all about affordable alternatives. I would hope that anyone who brought such a product to market would do their homework first otherwise they'd be on a hiding to nothing, luck shouldn't have anything to do with it.
Fair enough. I'm not slighting either manufacturer by the way, this is all about affordable alternatives. I would hope that anyone who brought such a product to market would do their homework first otherwise they'd be on a hiding to nothing, luck shouldn't have anything to do with it.
Indeed, but the point is, can you afford to take the chance and throw away your £300? I doubt that such a specialised item, aimed at, in the grand scheme of things, a tiny audience, would ever be sold on a 'sale or return' basis. Effectively, if it didn't work out, you'd be waving bye-bye to your money.
At least if you bought a Mike New or Funk platter, and disliked it, sonically, (which is extremely unlikely if you were upgrading from a stock Technics platter), there would be an established user-base to sell it on to, who are aware of the efficacy of those products. That would very unlikely be the case with an unknown product only recently brought onto the market by a new company.
In any case, the point is moot, as I don't believe that a bespoke platter, of requisite quality, could be produced commercially for £300 by any company who had a notion of turning a workable profit.
Marco.
Indeed, but the point is, can you afford to take the chance and throw away your £300? I doubt that such a specialised item, aimed at, in the grand scheme of things, a tiny audience, would ever be sold on a 'sale or return' basis. Effectively, if it didn't work out, you'd be waving bye-bye to your money.
.
Not if bought brand new via mail order - they have to give you 14 days by law assuming it originates in the EEC
Indeed, but the point is, can you afford to take the chance and throw away your £300? I doubt that such a specialised item, aimed at, in the grand scheme of things, a tiny audience, would ever be sold on a 'sale or return' basis. Effectively, if it didn't work out, you'd be waving bye-bye to your money.
At least if you bought a Mike New or Funk platter, and disliked it, sonically, (which is extremely unlikely if you were upgrading from a stock Technics platter), there would be an established user-base to sell it on to, who are aware of the efficacy of those products. That certainly wouldn't be the case with an unknown product only recently brought onto the market by a new company.
In any case, the point is moot, as I don't believe that a bespoke platter, of the quality necessary, could be produced commercially for £300 by any company who had a notion of turning a workable profit.
Marco.
User bases build up over time due to reputation they don't just magically appear, even Mike and Arthur had to start somewhere. You may be correct regarding £300 not being a commercially viable target, however stranger things have happened. ;)
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 13:57
I phoned Funk today and they said as I use a mike new bearing they think the bearing taper is bigger so the funk wont fit
I just ordered a Mike NEW ETP :eyebrows:
Finally I can comment on this - I wasn't prepared to say anything before hand as I don't usually reveal any info relating to on going reviews before publishing them (I won't be commenting further on the Funk mk2 by the way).
I am in the process of doing a whole Technics related uber review - early stages but under way finally - and I have a new MK2 Funk Platter in as part of the review and it will work on any modified Technics bearing and the original bearing but it will not work with any of the existing Mike New bearings as Mike's bearing does not accurately match the profile of the original Technics bearing, so sadly the new Funk MK2 platter which does won't fit the Mike New bearing as it exists now.
When I say won't fit it will go on, but the Funk mk2 Platter will rock back and forward as there is a gap when sitting on a Mike New bearing. I really wanted to hear what the Funk MK2 sounds like on the MN bearing but alas I can't just as well I bought a Vantage Audio modified bearing (though I also have a Technics fitted with original bearing too) - though based on all the issues with VA at the minute it won't officially be part of the review.
Regards Neil
Not if bought brand new via mail order - they have to give you 14 days by law assuming it originates in the EEC
That is a good point Martin ;)
The market for bespoke platters for the Techie is finite and perhaps producing such an item which retails for £300 is unrealistic, but it would be a fascinating project to explore for someone with the skills and the facilities.
You may be correct regarding £300 not being a commercially viable target, however stranger things have happened. ;)
Indeed - and I'll leave it there, as I've made my point :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 14:17
That is a good point Martin ;)
The market for bespoke platters for the Techie is finite and perhaps producing such an item which retails for £300 is unrealistic, but it would be a fascinating project to explore for someone with the skills and the facilities.
My understanding is several have tried and failed as there is a key part of the plater assembly that is very hard and time consuming to make.
The bit with the red circle, which is a key component to driving the platter.
http://www.djresource.eu/images/topics/technics/SL1200_platterins.jpg
Regards Neil
Well, if that is the case Neil then I will be sticking with the original platter for a while. I will consider trialing the Inspire item when funds allow, unless a secondhand Vantage platter comes up in the meantime ;)
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 14:43
Well, if that is the case Neil then I will be sticking with the original platter for a while. I will consider trialing the Inspire item when funds allow, unless a secondhand Vantage platter comes up in the meantime ;)
Yes it is sadly, and at the end of the day everyone out there making Technics related stuff are not beholden to each other to make interchangeable items with anyone else products but instead follow their own ideas and if some work with others great and if not then one needs to decide whose approach best suits their listening/system preferences and buy into that.
Regards Neil
Looking to change my platter :eyebrows:
1210mk11
I see Mike New does the new ETP design
Anyone tried one ?
Any alternative makes available ?
I asked Mike a week ago to send me a platter, you can borrow it when it arrives, sorry just noted you ordered one anyway!
krugdoktor
28-10-2013, 17:42
When I say won't fit it will go on, but the Funk mk2 Platter will rock back and forward as there is a gap when sitting on a Mike New bearing. I really wanted to hear what the Funk MK2 sounds like on the MN bearing but alas I can't just as well I bought a Vantage Audio modified bearing (though I also have a Technics fitted with original bearing too) - though based on all the issues with VA at the minute it won't officially be part of the review.
That's strange!!
My MN-bearing fitted absolutely perfect to the original platter, so I presume that the taper of the MN-bearing and the taper of the original bearing have identical dimensions. I have to add, that my MN copper-ally-platter was not a similar perfect fit on the MN- bearing and required a bit of vaseline (the universal aid :eyebrows:) to prevent a very slight rocking movement (apparently it's not so easy to manufacture). So if the "new" Funk-platter does not fit, it obviously is not correctly made!
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 17:48
Sounds odd. Funk platter fits a standard bearing because it uses a technics hub. Why would mike new make a bearing that doesn't fit a standard platter. Does he make 2 different types - one for his platters and one for standard technics hubs? :scratch:
Sounds odd. Funk platter fits a standard bearing because it uses a technics hub. Why would mike new make a bearing that doesn't fit a standard platter. Does he make 2 different types - one for his platters and one for standard technics hubs? :scratch:
Perhaps you could take this up with Arthur to see what he has to say about it?
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 18:45
Sounds odd. Funk platter fits a standard bearing because it uses a technics hub. Why would mike new make a bearing that doesn't fit a standard platter. Does he make 2 different types - one for his platters and one for standard technics hubs? :scratch:
I thought this would cause some heat when Al revealed this information, which I discovered in the course of preliminary review work. I have just removed the Mike New bearing from the turntable it was fitted into and I have a spare Technics bearing sitting here beside me. Funk Platter mk2 fits the standard Technics bearing perfectly with no issues what so ever, fit it onto the Mike New and it rocks.
When I spoke to Arthur about this he said that the taper on a MN bearing maybe did not match the exact profile of the Technics bearing and that was why it was rocking. Looking at the two side by side there are differences in spindle length and the actual taper that the bearing fits on. The Technics bearing the taper does not go right to the bottom of the spindle and in the case of the MN the taper does. I am not able to say if it is this fact that is causing the issue or something else. One does not need grease to fit the Funk Plater mk2 it just fits but I am aware of the issues re having to use grease or Vaseline to fit a Mike New metal platter on a Mike New bearing - I had to do this myself.
I too wondered why a standard Technics platter fits on a Mike New bearing and the Funk doesn't. I don't have an original MK1 Funk Platter here to compare it to but they are very different designs and I am not going to say how.
Regards Neil
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 18:48
When I say won't fit it will go on, but the Funk mk2 Platter will rock back and forward as there is a gap when sitting on a Mike New bearing. I really wanted to hear what the Funk MK2 sounds like on the MN bearing but alas I can't just as well I bought a Vantage Audio modified bearing (though I also have a Technics fitted with original bearing too) - though based on all the issues with VA at the minute it won't officially be part of the review.
That's strange!!
My MN-bearing fitted absolutely perfect to the original platter, so I presume that the taper of the MN-bearing and the taper of the original bearing have identical dimensions. I have to add, that my MN copper-ally-platter was not a similar perfect fit on the MN- bearing and required a bit of vaseline (the universal aid :eyebrows:) to prevent a very slight rocking movement (apparently it's not so easy to manufacture). So if the "new" Funk-platter does not fit, it obviously is not correctly made!
This is not a slight rock but quite a pronounced one.
Regards Neil
£650/£840 is quite taking the preverbial.
I don't have an original MK1 Funk Platter here to compare it too but they are very different designs and I am not going to say how.
I think Richard's beaten you to it, mate....
Although I still haven't seen a pic in the public domain, I know Neil has one to evaluate, so it can no longer be a NATO secret, that Arthur has moved onto composite materials from Acrylic this time, using bonded glass (using some special glue he keeps hidden in a draw) in itself bonded to acrylic.
;)
The news of the compatibility issue with the MN bearing is disappointing, for obvious reasons, but perhaps none more so than for the fact that, given how fundamentally HUGE an improvement the MN bearing provides over a stock Technics bearing, I strongly suspect that a Techy fitted with an MN bearing and MKI Funk platter, would outperform one fitted with a MK II Funk platter and stock Technics bearing...
If the new Funk platter is compatible with any of the other upgraded bearings on the market (Vantage, etc), which I'm sorry if I missed you mentioning, Neil, then that *may* level the playing field.
Of course, the only way to know for sure is to carry out the necessary comparisons, but as far as I'm concerned, the standard hierarchical upgrade path for the Technics, if the goal is achieving ultimate sonic performance, would always feature a bearing upgrade before a platter one.
Marco.
£650/£840 is quite taking the preverbial.
How so, Andy - did you not read what I wrote on post #23? :)
Marco.
It seems odd that the original Funk platter will quite happily mate to a MN bearing and yet the mkII doesn't, rather points to an issue with the design or manufacture of the platter rather than an issue with the bearing methinks. Arthur needs to sort this asap unless he is happy to limit its appeal :eyebrows:
krugdoktor
28-10-2013, 19:19
My MN-bearing is from 2009, the platter was bought in 2012, so maybe MN changed the profile of the bearing taper in the meantime. I have to add the sound produced by MN-bearing and MN-platter is fantastic, the only thing that worries me is the "not perfect" fit between MN-bearing and MN-platter whilst the (2009) MN-bearing fits like a glove onto the original platter. BTW I also tried to fit the MN-plater to the original bearing (outside the turntable) and experienced the same (slight) rocking.
My MN-bearing is from 2009, the platter was bought in 2012, so maybe MN changed the profile of the bearing taper in the meantime. I have to add the sound produced by MN-bearing and MN-platter is fantastic, the only thing that worries me is the "not perfect" fit between MN-bearing and MN-platter whilst the (2009) MN-bearing fits like a glove onto the original platter. BTW I also tried to fit the MN-plater to the original bearing (outside the turntable) and experienced the same (slight) rocking.
Might be worth taking that up with Mike ;)
prestonchipfryer
28-10-2013, 19:36
I phoned Funk today and they said as I use a mike new bearing they think the bearing taper is bigger so the funk wont fit
I just ordered a Mike NEW ETP :eyebrows:
Nice one. You'll be amazed how much better your tecchie will sound. Also the MN ETP platter is easy to fit as it has two bolt holes for easy positioning. I understand that the Funk Firm does not have these bolts and can be difficult to remove.
This is mine pictured.
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx309/prestonchipfryer/platterabove.jpg (http://s766.photobucket.com/user/prestonchipfryer/media/platterabove.jpg.html)
Well... Let's put this into perspective: how much do you think Linn would charge for a brand new platter (top and sub) for an LP12 - or how much would SME, Kuzma, Clearaudio (or any other high-end T/T manufacturer) charge for a replacement platter for one of their turntables, if you wanted one for whatever reason, and they were willing to supply you?
My guess is a damn sight more than £650! ;)
The (bespoke) Funk Firm platter for the Technics is every bit as high-quality an item as any of the above.
Marco.
l am guessing you are guessing Marco?:lol: It is still alot of money.
prestonchipfryer
28-10-2013, 19:46
Sounds odd. Funk platter fits a standard bearing because it uses a technics hub. Why would mike new make a bearing that doesn't fit a standard platter. Does he make 2 different types - one for his platters and one for standard technics hubs? :scratch:
Both the original platter and the MN ETP platter fit snugly on the MN bearing in my set-up.
The MN platter is a snug fit and can take some time to position correctly, as explained my Mike New in the fitting instructions supplied with the ETP platter.
Spectral Morn
28-10-2013, 20:04
I think Richard's beaten you to it, mate....
;)
The news of the compatibility issue with the MN bearing is disappointing, for obvious reasons, but perhaps none more so than for the fact that, given how fundamentally HUGE an improvement the MN bearing gives over a stock Technics bearing, I strongly suspect that a Techy fitted with an MN bearing and MKI Funk platter, would outperform one fitted with a MK II Funk platter and stock Technics bearing...
If the new Funk platter is compatible with any of the other upgraded bearings on the market (Vantage, etc), which I'm sorry if I missed you mentioning, Neil, then that *may* level the playing field.
Of course, the only way to know for sure is to carry out the necessary comparisons, but as far as I'm concerned, the standard hierarchical upgrade path for the Technics, if the goal is achieving ultimate sonic performance, would always feature a bearing upgrade before a platter one.
Marco.
I was aware of the comments made Marco by Richard, but until the go ahead was given to say more I prefer to stay silent. The other info now in the public domain was another matter, though in hindsight I think saying nothing about it was probably the better option and I wish I had.
Regards Neil
l am guessing you are guessing Marco?:lol: It is still alot of money.
Of course it is - no question - but it is substantially less, I suspect, than one would be from the other manufacturers mentioned!! ;)
Anyone fancy contacting, say, Linn or SME and asking them the question, then reporting back?
Marco.
Of course it is - no question - but it is substantially less, I suspect, than one would be from the other manufacturers mentioned!! ;)
Anyone fancy contacting, say, Linn or SME and asking them the question, then reporting back?
Marco.
Rather pointless exercise as making 1 platter is bound to cost a small fortune, the figure of £300 mentioned elsewhere is also rather silly, if the platter sold for £650, £108.33 of that is VAT, the dealer needs a slice as well as the manufacturer, so I doubt there is much profit in making them, plus they don't sell in large volumes due to the size of the market for a niche product like this.
The Grand Wazoo
28-10-2013, 20:54
Michell Orbe platter kit - £449. 60mm thick carbon loaded acrylic includes a clamp.
Bearing - £99
http://www.turntableworld.co.uk/departments-c49/turntable-zone-c11/accessories-c26/michell-orbe-platter-upgrade-kit-p129
Including VAT
Rather pointless exercise as making 1 platter is bound to cost a small fortune...
I wasn't talking about having a platter specially commissioned, dude, but rather one being sold from 'stock', which would otherwise have been supplied with a complete T/T.
Linn, for example, do sell parts for the LP12 individually. I believe that a new plastic lid for one is around £300. Now that's what you call "mental"!! :mental:
More seriously, the point I'm making here is that there's still a notion considered by some that upgrades for the SL-1200/1210 aren't worth it, as it isn't a 'proper' turntable, in the way of, say, a Linn or an SME (utter bollocks), which is why I doubt you'd see anyone baulking at being quoted for a new platter, for one of those T/Ts, at least twice the amount (or probably more) of what a Funk Firm one costs for the Technics! ;)
I'm just putting things into a proper perspective. Therefore, I don't consider the cost of the Funk Firm platter "mental", but rather commensurate with the quality of the item itself and the cost of parts today in general for high-quality turntables.
Marco.
Michell Orbe platter kit - £449. 60mm thick carbon loaded acrylic includes a clamp.
Bearing - £99
http://www.turntableworld.co.uk/departments-c49/turntable-zone-c11/accessories-c26/michell-orbe-platter-upgrade-kit-p129
Including VAT
Nice one, Chris. Michell always were rather more 'real world' with their pricing!
Of course, economies of scale will also kick in here (including the fact that Michell have been a professional engineering company for decades and thus can produce everything they need 'in house'), and so there'll be substantial cost savings attached to that, together with more bearings and platters sold for Michell T/Ts, worldwide (simply because their T/Ts are more established in the marketplace), than either Mike New or Arthur K will manage for their products, resulting in much lower prices for the former, such as you have quoted... ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
28-10-2013, 21:17
. I'll talk to Arthur tomorrow. However i am fairly sure he wouldn't have considered the possibility that a part like a bearing would not be produced to fit standard parts like a platter. When brembo make an improved brake pad they make it to fit the existing disc and caliper. However, the death of Harry's friend in the storm is the greater priority atm. Understandably he is pretty cut up about it.
The Grand Wazoo
28-10-2013, 21:17
Indeed!
The Michell bearing is a very high quality item and I'm amazed that they can make it for a hundred quid.
All Michell turntables currently employ a unique inverted bearing that locates the point of rotation above the center of gravity of the platter precisely at the height where the platter takes up the drive belt. This makes the platter/bearing a self-stabilising component that can not be provoked into rocking modes.
The precision bearing has a case-hardened steel shaft that is secured upright in an oil well, which is threaded into the subchassis from below. A massive bronze housing, precision-machined as a pair with the shaft, is attached to the platter via the integral stainless steel record spindle. A thrust ball sits on the flat top of the shaft centralized by an inverted cone in the top of the housing. This housing has a spiral machined into its inner bore to draw a high quality synthetic oil from the bath to the top of the bearing shaft as the housing rotates with the platter. An off-center hole is drilled from top to bottom of the shaft allowing the trapped oil to return to the oil wel for re-circulationl. This unique oil-pumping mechanism results in low friction and wear, and in low rumble and noise. It was designed to last a lifetime.
I wasn't talking about having a platter specially commissioned, dude, but rather one being supplied from 'stock', which would otherwise have been supplied with a complete T/T.
Linn, for example, do sell parts for the LP12 individually. I believe that a new plastic lid for one is around £300. Now that's what you call "mental"!! :mental:
More seriously, the point I'm making here is that there's still a notion considered by some that upgrades for the SL-1200/1210 aren't worth it, as it isn't a 'proper' turntable, in the way of, say, a Linn or an SME (utter bollocks), which is why I doubt you'd see anyone baulking about being quoted for a new platter, for one of those T/Ts, at least twice the amount of what a Funk Firm platter costs for the Technics! ;)
Just trying to put things into persepctive.
Marco.
That's certainly not the angle I am coming at it from Marco, I am simply speculating as to whether it could be done for 300 quid and still offer a significant improvement over the stock or modified Technics platters. Using your own logic, I'm am sure most Linn owners consider the upgrades available for their kit to be good value too and would baulk at buying a cheaper alternative as they'd be afraid of reducing the brands caché. IMO it's the same thing, just higher up the value ladder. Let me ask you this, if someone were to produce a cheaper alternative and it performed better than your current platter, would you buy it? If so, how would you justify your current argument?
That's certainly not the angle I am coming at it from Marco, I am simply speculating as to whether it could be done for 300 quid and still offer a significant improvement over the stock or modified Technics platters. Using your own logic, I'm am sure most Linn owners consider the upgrades available for their kit to be good value too and would baulk at buying a cheaper alternative as they'd be afraid of reducing the brands caché. IMO it's the same thing, just higher up the value ladder. Let me ask you this, if someone were to produce a cheaper alternative and it performed better than your current platter, would you buy it? If so, how would you justify your current argument?
First of all, Dave, you weren't in my thoughts in the slightest when I made my comment.
You should know me by now and that I don't give a damn about cachet, brand image/prestige value, or whatever you want to call it. The fact is, if another platter for the Technics was produced which fundamentally and comprehensively outperformed the Funk one I currently use, and it fitted my MN bearing properly, then I would buy it, regardless of the whether it was cheaper or more expensive, as the only thing that matters to me, ultimately, is sonic performance.
Price or 'cachet' will always be of secondary importance!
Marco.
Price or 'cachet' will always be of secondary importance.
Marco.
Just checking ;)
I'm surprised you had to ask :rolleyes:
Marco.
So you have tried the MN platter then Marco?
I'm surprised you had to ask :rolleyes:
Marco.
You were getting a little evangelical, I was beginning to worry that you might wheel out a full blown gospel choir at any moment... :lol:
So you have tried the MN platter then Marco?
I haven't tried his ETP one, but of course owned the high-mass composite one for quite a while, which to my ears the Funk Firm (MKI) platter outperformed. Of course it's possible that the MN ETP platter might be better than what I'm using now, and if either you or Mike want to send me one to try, then I'll do so and report the results. However, when you're extremely satisfied with your T/T and/or system, then there's no compulsion to fiddle :)
Marco.
You were getting a little evangelical, I was beginning to worry that you might wheel out a full blown gospel choir at any moment... :lol:
Lol... Gotta make sure that 'da message' stays out there as much as possible ;)
Marco.
I'm using a MN Bearing and Funk Platter (let's call it the Mk. I) with Funk Achromat, bonded with Vaseline. The combination sounds superb and all the tapers fit as with the original Technics platter.
Ditto. It's a perfectly synergistic match, as one would expect it to be, considering that the mat and platter were designed by the same manufacturer to work in unison, and as a pairing, to sonically optimise the SL-1200/1210 :)
Marco.
Michell Orbe platter kit - £449. 60mm thick carbon loaded acrylic includes a clamp.
Bearing - £99
http://www.turntableworld.co.uk/departments-c49/turntable-zone-c11/accessories-c26/michell-orbe-platter-upgrade-kit-p129
Including VAT
l will have one of them for me SL1200 then bruv:lol: Save me some wonga.
l will have one of them for me SL1200 then bruv:lol: Save me some wonga.
lol, you need the bearing first chief
the MN platter is on the way to the UK selling via MCRU very soon! we had been discussing it for quite some time but never finalized anything
Good news, dude. The greater the availability of different upgraded platters, the better! :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
29-10-2013, 10:11
. I'll talk to Arthur tomorrow. However i am fairly sure he wouldn't have considered the possibility that a part like a bearing would not be produced to fit standard parts like a platter. When brembo make an improved brake pad they make it to fit the existing disc and caliper. However, the death of Harry's friend in the storm is the greater priority atm. Understandably he is pretty cut up about it.
I've spoken with Arthur - and noted that I am not his marketing department. However - he is too busy with urgent matters, so asked me to post for him. I thought of pointing out that I have a day job too, but what are mates for?
He was not aware that Mike New made a bearing which was not a standard fit , and was a little disappointed that those who had encouraged him to develop "specials" for the SL1200 had not made him aware of that. He also repeated my comment that it is not normal engineering practice to make a "custom replacement" which needs to fit other parts, in a non-standard size. I don't want to get factional, but it would be normal practice if you design a part which needs to fit another part (bearing needing to fit a platter) to draw attention to the fact that it is not standard - ie "this upgraded bearing is only designed to work with our own platters and may not fit standard platters or those manufactured to the same specifications as the standard platter".
However, we are where we are. As far as Arthur is aware the Funk 1 and Funk 2 hubs are identical. He sent a standard technics platter to the engineers and asked them to copy that both times. He is sending a Funk 2 hub to Martin T to try on a Mike New bearing for him. He is also planning to contact Mike New for details (measurements) for his bearing, so that, if necessary he can offer a Funk platter with a Mike New bearing fit. However, he has some reservations about this general approach
He is also planning to launch a Funk bearing for the SL1200 which will incorporate the now famous Pink Triangle saphire thrust plate. Spitting teeth here, and noting that at this rate I am going to end up a Techie owner, I would note that this might be a worthwile improvement. However - critically - that bearing will be designed to be a universal fit - that is, it will fit Funk standard, Technics standard and all standard fit aftermarket variants. He does not consider it apporpriate, and I strongly share his views - to go building a funk bearing which is designed as a custom fit only for a funk platter. Were that necessary or beneficial for engineering reasons, he would expect to make it clear in all his marketing material that the funk bearing was only for use with a funk platter.
In spite of those reservations, and principles regarding parts upgrade design (ie they should be universal) I have persuaded him that if necessary he will produce a "Mike New" special of the funk 2 platter, possibly at a small price premium to reflect the custom engineering required (ie he can't just have one product on the shelf - and in view of the size of the market, and erratic order pattern will have to have hubs built to order)
Of course, if you all just went out and bought a nice bouncy Pink Triangle, you wouldnt have these problems, and I could get on with counting beans, and listening to morons from HMRC :steam:
The other alternative has been missed, buy a mike new platter to go with your mike new bearing, no compatibility issues guaranteed!
I have spoken with Arthur and will test out, for fit, his hub on my MN Bearing as soon as I receive it. This is a favour for Arthur as he does not have a MN Bearing.
Mike_New
29-10-2013, 11:48
Finally I can comment on this - I wasn't prepared to say anything before hand as I don't usually reveal any info relating to on going reviews before publishing them (I won't be commenting further on the Funk mk2 by the way).
I am in the process of doing a whole Technics related uber review - early stages but under way finally - and I have a new MK2 Funk Platter in as part of the review and it will work on any modified Technics bearing and the original bearing but it will not work with any of the existing Mike New bearings as Mike's bearing does not accurately match the profile of the original Technics bearing, so sadly the new Funk MK2 platter which does won't fit the Mike New bearing as it exists now.
When I say won't fit it will go on, but the Funk mk2 Platter will rock back and forward as there is a gap when sitting on a Mike New bearing. I really wanted to hear what the Funk MK2 sounds like on the MN bearing but alas I can't just as well I bought a Vantage Audio modified bearing (though I also have a Technics fitted with original bearing too) - though based on all the issues with VA at the minute it won't officially be part of the review.
Regards Neil
With all due respects this is absolutely total crap. I have a number of customers who are using the Funk platter with no problems.
I have also recieved three private emails from users who do not want to be named, who have had their platter totally stuck onto their bearing tapers. The removal process has been rather radical. The reason for this is that the platters are not fitted with a central boss which carries the taper.
Acrylic like any other plastic has a high co-efficient of expansion. I believe that what happens is this:
As the platter warms up the taper expands and very slightly moves down the taper it then cools (in the evening) and the taper is expanded, this process is continued until the platter becomes totally jammed onto the spindle taper. As the platters are not supplied with threaded holes for removal as mine are, the problem is greatly magnified.
When I designed the bearing some three and a half years ago now; my toolmakers who machine and precision grind the shaft used a Zeis shadow graph microscope to very accurately determine the taper, of the two samples I gave them it was decided that 6deg was the most like intended taper!!!! They both varied by a small amount.
If there are any problems with Funk platters fitting to my bearings it is probably because the internal clearance bore around which the pulse generator fits is not deep enough, I have designed my bearing to maximise the material support at the top where it matters.
I would like to point out to all; that of the 250 users of my bearing the very large majority use the standard SL1200 platter which fits onto my bearing with no problems!!!! The problem IMO has nothing to do with the taper.
This is the first I have heard of this problem from any of the 250 users of my Bearing, some of which as mentioned above use the Funk platter.
If the makers of the platter care to contact me and perhaps supply me with the details of the clearances they machine to, we can resolve this situation to the mutual satisfaction of all.
Excellent news, chaps. I shall look forward to following progress with this matter in due course :)
Marco.
With the launch of Flamenca / F6 in Denver and SL1200 mk II and factor in the season has kicked in pretty hard, explains my being off forum.
We got a call yesterday from someone, who chose not to introduce themselves asking after the platter.
We have been led to believe from a single individual that the platter does not fit the Mike New bearing…which as Mike has pointed out makes little sense. This is further supported by the many users of Funk’s mk I platter which is no different as regards fit to our mk II.
Still, in the interest of being honest, we replied that as we don’t have one, we replied there might be an issue for Mike New bearings. I won’t say any more but
this post is to thank Richard who has been working hard to prevent mis-information and similarly to Mike New, who has stepped in to clarify various points.
Despite no info from Funk on the new platter to date on the website we find ourselves in the embarrassing position of being out of stock and as I’m pushed for time right now, I’m leaving it to Richard to post a couple of photos.
You’ll see that it is quite different from the original. It is a complex assembly of a hub and an outer “platter” that has Achromat bonded to it.
The end result is technically quite impressive. For more info, please visit the website tomorrow as at long last it is being updated overnight.
Arthur
Oldpinkman
29-10-2013, 14:20
OK
AK has asked me to post his pictures cos he doesn't have photobucket. I should note that in addition to "project pimp PT" and getting the boards out of the Integral so Owen can fix them for me, ITS YOUR BLOODY ROUND when I am down in Sussex next :lol:
New Funk platter - the arm is the FX2 prototype I borrowed - NOT a production version. The anti-skate is on the wrong side, making it tricky to use on a techie and REALLY scary on a bouncy like my Pink Triangle
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200platter_zps37d15515.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200platter_zps37d15515.jpg.html)
And again - different angle - same machine
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200setup_zps702f322c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200setup_zps702f322c.jpg.html)
While we're on the subject, since you are shamelessly flaunting that Technics cartridge Arthur, do you have a spare body, cos I might be able to get a stylus assembly???
And finally - the new platter hub. As you will note Mike this is machined from metal, so you shouldn't get the acrylic issues you referred to with this one.
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200HubTopsm_zps5a8867c2.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200HubTopsm_zps5a8867c2.jpg.html)
Hopefully this won't have spoilt your planned review Neil, but improved it by correcting some mistaken assumptions. And Dave, given the radical differences in materials and approach, just buying a Mike New platter instead is not really an answer. Mike has made it clear, as an excellent engineer, that he is happy for his products to compete on the strength of their design and engineering qualities, and not restrictive trade practices - which is what I would have expected of a good engineer.:thumbsup:
Phew - back to the beans :cool:
Since this seems to have developed into a sales thread for the funk platter, the mike new platter will soon be for sale at MCRU :ner:
MN bearing/MN platter, a match made in australia :)
Arthur & Richard - looks very nice. Is the 'Pimp My Deck' lettering on the outer rim optional? As I said, I'll test the hub out for you as soon as I receive it.
Regarding the Funk Mk. I platter, I remember Mike New's advice to use a little Vaseline on the spindle. Since then, I've never had trouble removing the platter when I've so needed.
Spectral Morn
29-10-2013, 15:23
OK
AK has asked me to post his pictures cos he doesn't have photobucket. I should note that in addition to "project pimp PT" and getting the boards out of the Integral so Owen can fix them for me, ITS YOUR BLOODY ROUND when I am down in Sussex next :lol:
New Funk platter - the arm is the FX2 prototype I borrowed - NOT a production version. The anti-skate is on the wrong side, making it tricky to use on a techie and REALLY scary on a bouncy like my Pink Triangle
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200platter_zps37d15515.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200platter_zps37d15515.jpg.html)
And again - different angle - same machine
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200setup_zps702f322c.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200setup_zps702f322c.jpg.html)
While we're on the subject, since you are shamelessly flaunting that Technics cartridge Arthur, do you have a spare body, cos I might be able to get a stylus assembly???
And finally - the new platter hub. As you will note Mike this is machined from metal, so you shouldn't get the acrylic issues you referred to with this one.
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200HubTopsm_zps5a8867c2.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/1200HubTopsm_zps5a8867c2.jpg.html)
Hopefully this won't have spoilt your planned review Neil, but improved it by correcting some mistaken assumptions. And Dave, given the radical differences in materials and approach, just buying a Mike New platter instead is not really an answer. Mike has made it clear, as an excellent engineer, that he is happy for his products to compete on the strength of their design and engineering qualities, and not restrictive trade practices - which is what I would have expected of a good engineer.:thumbsup:
Phew - back to the beans :cool:
Certainly no mistakes or assumptions on my part. I reported the problem/issue/incompatibility to Arthur as soon as I discovered it. I have a Mike New bearing no doubt identical to Martin's and anyone else's and the Funk Mk2 inner hub platter does not seat to it properly, there is a very pounced and unacceptable movement /rock. Using grease or Vaseline does not change that one bit as I tried that. The Funk MK2 fits an original Technics bearing with no issue and I have several here including a Vantage audio modified one.
I think it a shame this information was revealed in the way it was to a member of the public then reported here on AOS and not dealt with privately by Funk originally -before telling Audio Al.- by asking for the platter back and I would have been quite happy to send my Mike New bearing to Funk as well so they could see for themselves.
I am at the minute left sitting here feeling my integrity is being challenged re what I have honestly reported in private to Funk and I am not happy at the way it has been dealt with so far in the public domain.
I stand by my comments both in private to Arthur and here on AOS.
Neil
Oldpinkman
29-10-2013, 16:17
Certainly no mistakes or assumptions on my part.
Neil
Neil
I won't repost the pictures, or poor Dave will have a fit! I am sure no malice was intended by anybody, and Mike and Arthur will be grateful that they have been made aware of the issue and are in a position to cooperate to resolve it if necessary for the benefit of all Technics owners as a whole. Whilst as a Pink Triangle owner I am completely indifferent to it, I am sure the Technics owners look forward to your "uber" review no less eagerly than before, and I trust it will be a valuable addition to the Techipedia.
Best wishes
Richard
We are talking about maybe at a guess 0.00000000000000002% of the world population being concerned, thats possibly 20 people out of over 6 billion, I am not one of them. :)
Neil chill out you are a nice guy (well I think so anyway) and I like your site and your reviews too. :)
Arthur & Richard - looks very nice. Is the 'Pimp My Deck' lettering on the outer rim optional?
+1.
Looks like the size of the platter has been enlarged a little, perhaps to maximise the 'flywheel effect' - or is it just an optical illision? I agree with you, if I was to have one, it would need to be minus the 'go-faster lettering'. Anyway, I await your findings with interest!
Good fun this Techy pimping malarkey, innit? :D
Marco.
P.S Out of interest, is the new platter heavier, lighter or the same weight as the old one?
Maybe you can have your name put on? What would marco super dafteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee look like spinning at 33rpm I wonder? :lol:
Oldpinkman
29-10-2013, 17:18
+1.
Looks like the size of the platter has been enlarged a little, perhaps to maximise the 'flywheel effect' - or is it just an optical illision? I agree with you, if I was to have one, it would need to be minus the 'go-faster lettering'. Anyway, I await your findings with interest!
Good fun this Techy pimping malarkey, innit? :D
Marco.
P.S Out of interest, is the new platter heavier, lighter or the same weight as the old one?
Never having seen or held the old one, I perhaps shouldn't say, but HEAVIER. Since, the old Funk platter was I believe, in effect, a PT platter for a Techie, the new platter is a good deal heavier. Hence the need for the PT to be modified to have heavier guage springs and aluminium levelling wedges to replace the standard acrylic ones. I know you're not interested in PT's but it changes the centre of mass for the suspension too, which is going to involve a rebalancing of the armboard weight, or possibly a repositioning of the springs to shift the centre of suspension. Aren't you glad you have a solid? However, having heard the bloody platter on a Techie , our friendship depends on you sorting the PT version out Mr K! ;)
Beobloke
30-10-2013, 12:59
Maybe you can have your name put on?
Even better would be to go full circle and have some strobe markings on it!
Oldpinkman
30-10-2013, 13:09
I happen to know Mr Funk is very keen on his go-faster stripes. I hope he reads these bloody threads cos I'm not looking forward to putting your suggestions to him personally. Catch him on a good day, would be my advice! ;)
No reason it can't be done. Plain is simple (although he'll sulk). Custom at a price. strobe dots - why? Put a disk on. And the QC issues - what happens if a very expensive bonded platter comes back with the strobe pattern slightly wrong? These are etched I believe... :cool:
Plain is - undoubtedly - best!
+1!
Keep.It.Simple.Stupid.
Marco.
The text would put me off ordering one. Sorry.
Audio Al
30-10-2013, 18:11
The AOS massive say. " FUNK OFF "
:D
prestonchipfryer
30-10-2013, 18:15
If I were to buy one the lettering would be a big no no. The sight of that white lettering would be most irritating. So keep it simple.
Oldpinkman
30-10-2013, 18:18
OK
I have to agree. But you must remember this is a disco product not a HiFi product like a PT Anniversary :sofa:
Arthur has confirmed Funk can supply it in plain. I have also suggested he gets off his arse and posts his own messages, since the backlog of accounts work is piling ever higher, and this is the busy season
:ner:
prestonchipfryer
30-10-2013, 18:25
OK
I have to agree. But you must remember this is a disco product not a HiFi product like a PT Anniversary :sofa:
:ner:
:wetkipper:
Ok
But you must remember this is a disco product not a HiFi product like a PT Anniversary :sofa:
:ner:
Well... at least its not pink.... :ner: ;)
The AOS massive say. " FUNK OFF " :D
Not quite, I rather like a spot of pimping ... takes me back to, oh never mind. Nice typeface too btw, anyone know what it is?
I have to say though I do like the etchings that tell you that your speed is rock solid.
Not quite, I rather like a spot of pimping ... takes me back to, oh never mind. Nice typeface too btw, anyone know what it is?
I have to say though I do like the etchings that tell you that your speed is rock solid.
I like the text too:cool:
Any discounts for cash...
Mike_New
31-10-2013, 00:47
Folks this must be a joke!!
After more than three years of providing the SL1200 aficionados with quality upgrades to their machines in a professional and sober manner, and watching all the other would be experts try to follow my lead in what has always been a very limited boutique market; I am gob smacked at the seemingly sheer stupidity of the recent demonstration of silly salesmanship.
To offer a platter with the grotesque lettering around it’s periphery is surely about as intellectually valid as offering a wind-up-gramophone to a kindergarten. To say nothing of the fact that it appears to be a crude attempt at high jacking the Techie’s reputation. It must surely be a joke?? But perhaps Funk’s marketing manager thinks it is good stuff and is serious.
The idea of offering a platter in two parts is something that I have always done from the early days, excepting that I have integrated them into the one unit for rigidity. Making them as two separate parts is the easy way. There really is nothing new that can be added to the SL1200 that has not already been done.
WOStantonCS100
31-10-2013, 04:56
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/1200setup_zps702f322c.jpg
:spew:
Sorry to be so blunt; but, the combination of the bling lettering and what looks like a seam running around the platter (maybe it's just a removable plastic seal or something; hopefully), has totally put me off. If this was a marketing idea, it sure didn't work for me. To be honest, I'd rather have a one-piece platter, as well. Having completed my digital excursions for a while, I'm looking at what I can do to spruce up the analog front end. The Mk. 1 Funk? Possibly. Mike New platter of some sort? Possibly. Mk. 2 Funk? I don't think so. Maybe, I'm missing something. Wasn't the idea of the Mk. 1 that the use of a mat wasn't necessary/essential?
Maybe, I'm missing something. Wasn't the idea of the Mk. 1 that the use of a mat wasn't necessary/essential?
No, the Mk. I Funk Platter still needs a mat, ideally an Achromat. Bonding the two together is what works brilliantly well, giving the vinyl an ideal coupling which is as dead as a dead thing.
I think the point here is that, as well as being a rather talented inventor/audio engineer, Arthur also enjoys expressing his creativity and hates blandness. He likes his designs to 'stand out from the crowd', which has always been the Funk way - and I applaud that :)
However, in the case of the Technics, its visual appearance (in stock form) is already rather 'busy', with lots of writing, logos, pitch controls (with also writing all around those), and so adding more writing around the platter, thus adding to the busyness, is simply a step too far...
I would imagine that the new platter would look good on Techies that have been 'minimalised', i.e. where the pitch controls have been removed, together with all the logos and writing (and in some cases where the top plates have been spray-painted a different colour), and where the writing around the MKII Funk platter would then add a touch of, well, 'funkiness'!
However, visually, it just doesn't work on stock Techies, although like Andrei, I like the typeface of the writing. It also should be remembered that Arthur has said that the platter is available to purchase sans-writing.
Anyway, putting appearances aside for now, the bottom line is how does the new platter SOUND, in comparison with the MKI?
In that respect, it's over to you, Martin, just as soon as you get a chance to have a listen. When you get the platter, after you've have a chance to listen for yourself, I'll pop down too, and we can have a day together, getting out heads around exactly what it's doing, and write up our thoughts for the forum. Quite simply, if the MKII is better, I'm sure we'll both be buying one! ;)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
31-10-2013, 08:39
Well, I don't have an interest in any of the horses in this particular race, but Mike's post above saddens me quite a bit to see that there's more than a little bitterness coming into play.
Mike, I don't think the above does anyone any favours, and least of all you. The design in the photo doesn't appeal to me either, but I wouldn't dream of calling it's creator silly, stupid or intellectually inadequate. Why does any product have to be soberly presented? That's the choice of the designer and if customers don't flock to it, it's his risk. Given the nature of many owners of this turntable, I'd expect the design is spot on to many of them.
The last sentence surprises me:
There really is nothing new that can be added to the SL1200 that has not already been done.
....really?
Oldpinkman
31-10-2013, 09:21
I've just spoken to Arthur.
The platter can be supplied without lettering. With or without - no custom options
The hub is being remachined to fit the Mike New Bearing (many thanks to Neil and Martin for their assistance in this regard)
The glue join is a function of the composite material and the restrictions of height available for a platter on the Technics. My pimped PT will drop the new platter inside the existing acrylic, and cover the whole shebang up with an achromat glued over the top. But my PT platter is over twice the depth of the Technics. The alternatives would be (possibly) for a polished finish which would take the retail price up to about £960, or a metal band (my idea). I have had a weekend of having the weaknesses in my good ideas explained to me. (Another friend explaining noise reduction and power supplies ideas which were flawed) Small volumes again, the metal band would involve having a 320mm tube produced and then precision cut and heat fitted - estimated retail price an EXTRA £800. Frankly £800 on a Techie platter is already big bucks, and I think reason has to set in somewhere. But the polished option, subject to trialling, would be feasible at about £960.
I don't want to escalate the hostility with Mike New that a few funky letters seem to have provoked, but I feel it appropriate to address the specific issue of the "2 piece" platter. It is actually 4 piece. It is in the nature of a design idea based on bonded composite materials that they are - composite. The innovative material and construction of this platter are what is - innovative.
One of our great frustrations at PT was that we innovated and others copied or engineered up. I would like to repeat a point I made in an earlier post - The Pink Triangle was a major ground breaking innovation. Prior to that there had been no significant development of the basic turntable concept. There were three drive mechanisms and solid or suspended, all done pretty much the same. At around the same time as the PT the Oracle arguable offered some true innovation (primarily the integration of a non-flat platter, mat compound and clamp - truly innovative). The PT offered acrylic platter, inverted bearing, saphire thrust plate, mass balanced suspension instead of unbalanced floating isolation, asymetric (no standing waves) sub-chassis from light, rigid, low-resonance aerolam, needle talk adjustment as well as convenience features like the cable dressing and suspension adjustment, transit bolt. Oh - and bucked the trend with a DC motor (hardly an innovation, but a trend buster).
Regarding the Technics, instead of making a metal on metal bearing which is better engineered than the original, Arthur plans an innovation. Instead of a metal platter to replace a metal platter he has innovated - twice. Arms - the Jelco which is so popular is an S shaped metal tube with detachable headshell like the Technics. F dot cross is probably the biggest single innovation in tonearm technology to date. And unremarkably, sounds significantly (and measures significantly) better than conventional arms. The Achromat - not felt, cork, or rubber - but a new innovative (application) for a material. Arthur, like my other friends in audio, own patents because they innovate.
Marco's (very sound) KISS advice reminds me of a classic definition of STUPIDITY. Which is to keep doing the same thing, and expect a different outcome.
I have been very priviliged to be friends with, and work with, some true innovative geniuses in audio. Arthur is one of them. :clap:
Guys, I'm working with Arthur on the hub/MN Bearing fit issue and Arthur is currently altering the hub design a touch for me to further test for proper fit. More news as soon as I've done further testing. Don't despair, I'm sure that the mismatch can be overcome.
Oldpinkman
31-10-2013, 10:01
Andrei
Sorry - missed your question about the font. I'll ask Arthur. Almost certainly an Apple exclusive. Pink used Rockwell, but now you can get it on PC's too I suspect Apple snobbery will have set in. But I'll ask himself later.:)
Guys, I'm working with Arthur on the hub/MN Bearing fit issue and Arthur is currently altering the hub design a touch for me to further test for proper fit. More news as soon as I've done further testing. Don't despair, I'm sure that the mismatch can be overcome.
Ah, so you've got one to play with already? ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
31-10-2013, 10:11
Ah, so you've got one to play with already? ;)
Marco.
Easy tiger. Just a hub - not the platter. AK saving on the postage I guess! :)
Lol... Ah, I see - my boo-boo! :)
Incidentally, if the MKII is found to be notably superior, sonically, to the MKI, you can put me down for a polished one (without lettering). I hate compromises ;)
Marco.
Mike_New
31-10-2013, 10:42
Ho Ho Ho Richard, I would have thought I had done most of the "innovations" some three years ago as far as the
Technics SL1200 is concerned, my goodnes you do get excited!!
Oldpinkman
31-10-2013, 10:43
I would have expected nothing less Marco. However, I can't put you down for anything. You will have to get the man himself to do that. And I'm not sure how he does sell Techie bits - whether they are only via authorised dealers like other Funk stuff. I would have thought that's quite likely if you take a look at his website.
I have heard the platter. Would be real surprised if you don't end up with one. I'm rather keen on one for me - and I don't have a bloody Technics! :)
Mike, just a thought, so we can put the platter thing to bed...any chance you could send Martin an ETP platter (it needn't be a new one, just a test sample or whatever), on or before the MKII Funk one arrives, so we can compare the three platters (Funk MKI and MKII, MN ETP), and offer some constructive input on the sonic merits of all three platters, in conjunction with your bearing, for the benefit of forum members?
I'm sure you'll agree that this would be both a sensible and useful thing to do :)
You never know, the ETP may turn out to be the 'winner'.... ;)
Marco.
I would have expected nothing less Marco. However, I can't put you down for anything. You will have to get the man himself to do that.
Lol - I know. I was being somewhat facetious, along with expressing my interest on what I would choose if I were going for a MKII :)
Marco.
Clive197
31-10-2013, 11:33
From a design perspective I like the stock Technics platter. I like to check the speed is correct. I notice that all (to my knowledge) alternative platters are sans strobe dots.
I am fully aware that strobe discs are available and I do have one but that's not the point I'm making.
Lol - it just shows you how tastes differ... Removing the the strobe markings (as I think they look ugly and cheapen the look of the T/T) was one of the things that motivated me to change the stock platter in the first place! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Mike_New
31-10-2013, 11:58
Mike, just a thought, so we can put the platter thing to bed...any chance you could send Martin an ETP platter (it needn't be a new one, just a test sample or whatever), on or before the MKII Funk one arrives, so we can compare the three platters (Funk MKI and MKII, MN ETP), and offer some constructive input on the sonic merits of all three platters, in conjunction with your bearing, for the benefit of forum members?
I'm sure you'll agree that this would be both a sensible and useful thing to do :)
You never know, the ETP may turn out to be the 'winner'.... ;)
Marco.
Marco,
As I write this I am completing one of five ETP Platters for David, it will be a plain top (no label recess) and no brass inserts.
I would hope to post it to him on Monday,
I am sure he is following this thread with interest and will contact Martin, I do know that he has a couple of audio magazine reviews
scheduled, so I will leave it to him to arrange a suitable date.
JazzBones
31-10-2013, 12:25
Since this seems to have developed into a sales thread for the funk platter, the mike new platter will soon be for sale at MCRU :ner:
MN bearing/MN platter, a match made in australia :)
Yeah and Amen to that DaveO old mate :eyebrows: As I have and use the MN copper ali platter, MN bearing, and MN bearing plate I'm wondering how this will gell with Martin T's TT especially as he has super Araldited his MN bearing plate to the chassis, just curious? I'm sure it won't affect sound quality performance but will emphasise the visual aspect of the larger platter lamination joint at the periphery of Funk Mk2? Wonder again if this will be machined away on the final marketed platter, just curious again should be for the price :scratch:? As for the flashy lettering on the side, no not for me it might distract from landing the stylus accurately :lol:.
By the way I ditched my Achromat in favour of Oyaide's BR-12 antivibration fine grained tungsten mixed butyl rubber mat with tuning holes arranged in spiral pattern with tapered structure angled at 1.0deg from centre circle to edge for correction of any possible record warping. A record stabilizer/weight of more than 300g is recommended to fit tightly to the angled surface of the BR-12 mat. I use the Furatech stabilizer weighing in at 350g, a perfect combinational match with the MN copper ali platter to my ears and within my system. I think all are available from MCRU, yes a plug/shill (?) I know but Arthur K/Funk does get a goodly slice of the publicity cake? Mike New if you are reading this try one, the BR-12 its half the price of an Achromat to boot. By the way Dave/MCRU made me aware of the BR-12 at the recent Whittlebury Show.
With the final new psu upgrade in place I've reached final destination with my 1210. Ciao.
Similarly, I have no intention of changing from my MN Base Plate + Bearing with Funk Platter + Achromat unless there is a compelling reason for change at a reasonable cost. Having heard the Air Force turntable with Cobra arm and Koetsu cartridge last week, I am happy that what I have with the Technics / Dynavector / Shelter combination is very very close, and at an affordable total outlay.
RobbieGong
31-10-2013, 13:17
Mike, just a thought, so we can put the platter thing to bed...any chance you could send Martin an ETP platter (it needn't be a new one, just a test sample or whatever), on or before the MKII Funk one arrives, so we can compare the three platters (Funk MKI and MKII, MN ETP), and offer some constructive input on the sonic merits of all three platters, in conjunction with your bearing, for the benefit of forum members?
I'm sure you'll agree that this would be both a sensible and useful thing to do :)
You never know, the ETP may turn out to be the 'winner'.... ;)
Marco.
Hi Marco, I'm glad you've included the ETP in the mix, I've a feeling you'll like it. Will be interesting to see if you prefer it's sonic presentation in your system with the Achromat or softer stock 3mm techie mat :)
RobbieGong
31-10-2013, 13:23
Similarly, I have no intention of changing from my MN Base Plate + Bearing with Funk Platter + Achromat unless there is a compelling reason for change at a reasonable cost. Having heard the Air Force turntable with Cobra arm and Koetsu cartridge last week, I am happy that what I have with the Technics / Dynavector / Shelter combination is very very close, and at an affordable total outlay.
I hear ya Martin, I feel the same. MN bearing and his ETP, with Micro Seiki MA 202 and 2M Black play great music where I feel no need to find change that combo - next upgrade will be speakers. Still always look forward to Techie related reviews though as always interesting and informative (and you never know :eyebrows:).
Marco,
As I write this I am completing one of five ETP Platters for David, it will be a plain top (no label recess) and no brass inserts.
I would hope to post it to him on Monday,
I am sure he is following this thread with interest and will contact Martin, I do know that he has a couple of audio magazine reviews
scheduled, so I will leave it to him to arrange a suitable date.
Hi Mike,
Sorry, David who?
Nice one, though. That sounds like a plan. If you could ask David to contact either myself or Martin (I'm sure you've got both our email addresses) when he's finished with the ETP, and ask him to send it on, then we can include it in the group platter 'shootout' :)
Marco.
Having heard the Air Force turntable with Cobra arm and Koetsu cartridge last week, I am happy that what I have with the Technics / Dynavector / Shelter combination is very very close, and at an affordable total outlay.
Now that's interesting! Can't say I'm too surprised though, given what I've heard with my own T/T when comparing it to some seriously high-end decks ;)
I've managed to arrange with Guy to hear his STST turntable (recently exhibited at Windsor), which he's bringing round to my place over the Christmas holidays, along with the Vida phonostage, so that should also be interesting :)
Marco.
P.S Robert, the ETP deserves to be assessed, as it is undoubtedly a major contender!
Sorry, David who - is he a member here?
David Brook (MCRU) is an agent for Mike New.
Lol - *THAT* David (daftee boy)... Soz, I should've guessed! :doh:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
31-10-2013, 18:53
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/andrei_zps00efd17f.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/andrei_zps00efd17f.jpg.html)
Lol - *THAT* David (daftee boy)... Soz, I should've guessed! :doh:
Marco.
dafteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
WOStantonCS100
31-10-2013, 20:33
...
The glue join is a function of the composite material and the restrictions of height available for a platter on the Technics. My pimped PT will drop the new platter inside the existing acrylic, and cover the whole shebang up with an achromat glued over the top. But my PT platter is over twice the depth of the Technics. The alternatives would be (possibly) for a polished finish which would take the retail price up to about £960, or a metal band (my idea)...
So, I'd have to pay extra for a proper fit and finish? :scratch: That doesn't set well with me. My suggestion would be to forget the lettering and make sure those platters go out polished... sans upcharge.
Mike_New
31-10-2013, 22:05
Folks,
With all the frantic talk about Richards new Platter, you all seem to have forgotten that It was I who fiist "innovated" and produced the "Copper Bonded Alluminium Platter" of which about 20 were sold to appreciating users.
Then eventually, some 6 months later when Richard/Funk eventually worked out how to make one; He came out with his Acrylic version with
[no metal centre boss/hub and no screwed holes for easy removal of the platter]
All of a sudden both Martin and Marco dropped my platter in favour of the Richard/Funk version.
The reason as explained by Martin was that the Copper Bonded Platter was too good at reproducing Bass!!!
So perhaps for all thos people who enjoy the Bass notes in their music perhaps we should also include my Copper Bonded Platter.
Or perhaps Martin and Marco can remember how very good it was!!
I then developed the ETP platter as a slightly brighter platter with less weight.
Mike, I think you're greatly overreacting now. That is NOT the reason I switched to the Funk platter from yours. And remember, I didn't ever have the bonded platter.
Mike_New
31-10-2013, 23:33
What was the reason then martin???
Because I have an email from you saying that with your setup you did not need the extra Bass that my platter is able to offer.
WOStantonCS100
31-10-2013, 23:53
All of a sudden both Martin and Marco dropped my platter in favour of the Richard/Funk version.
PM Sent.
I think it comes down to taste. As an example, the very excellent Trans-Fi Salvation turntable comes with a choice of aluminum or acrylic platter. I think Vic has caught on that there is a certain amount of personal preference that comes into play; so, why not offer both (which you kind of do now, in the ETP).
I'm also guessing there are those who continue to happily use the bonded platter, which is my leaning at present; so, no worries. Can't be all things to all people. Choice is good. I don't think there was any intent by Marco or Martin to downplay what the MN bonded platter brings to the table (pun intended). After all, Martin and Marco are only 2 sets of ears; everyone has their own pair. ;)
Everyone jumps on a good idea. If Richard jumped on one, so be it. Just keep doing what you do, Mike. We appreciate it! :D I'm still lovin' the bearing. We'll see what's next.
What was the reason then martin???
Because I have an email from you saying that with your setup you did not need the extra Bass that my platter is able to offer.
The primary reason was a clarity and transparency in the midrange from the Funk platter, lifting detail from the mix. Your platter (not a later bonded example) had a very slight haziness in this area. Yes, the absolute output of the Funk's bass was lower (there was not a lot in it) but the texture and detail in the bass went up, and for that reason I said it was not an issue in my system. It was never a compelling reason one way or another.
I don't think this is helpful, Mike. There is no need to analyse to the nth degree our reasons for our choices. There are plenty of Technics upgrades out there and we nearly all have a different selection when you include the arm and other parts. You still make the best bearing I've yet heard for the deck and, if you work with Arthur, you will have access to even more modders out there.
Yeah, Mike, you're getting a bit 'heavy', mate - and it's not cool. Just chillax and worry not about what folk choose to use. At the end of the day, everyone gets their slice of the cake :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
01-11-2013, 07:04
I really must get my finger out and start making technics platters. I'm missing all the fun :stalks:
Audio Al
01-11-2013, 07:10
I started it all :lol:
And I have ordered a Platter from Mike
Can I come out now :sofa: PLEASE ! :D
Can I come out now :sofa: PLEASE ! :D
Just creep around quietly and for goodness' sake keep your head down!
For a while now AoS has been a springboard for Mike to expose his products to a wider audience and as a small manufacturer I am sure this has been more than a little helpful, then along comes another manufacturer to steal some of his thunder. However this is always likely to happen where there is a market opportunity and the fact that another manufacturer has seen fit to enter the fray should be viewed in a positive light. Competition is a good thing as it can encourage all concerned to raise their game.
Spot on, Dave. Competition in business should always be viewed as a good thing! :)
No-one has a God-given right to forever be 'da man'.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
01-11-2013, 10:02
Folks,
With all the frantic talk about Richards new Platter, you all seem to have forgotten that It was I who fiist "innovated" and produced the "Copper Bonded Alluminium Platter" of which about 20 were sold to appreciating users.
Then eventually, some 6 months later when Richard/Funk eventually worked out how to make one; He came out with his Acrylic version with
[no metal centre boss/hub and no screwed holes for easy removal of the platter]
All of a sudden both Martin and Marco dropped my platter in favour of the Richard/Funk version.
The reason as explained by Martin was that the Copper Bonded Platter was too good at reproducing Bass!!!
So perhaps for all thos people who enjoy the Bass notes in their music perhaps we should also include my Copper Bonded Platter.
I then developed the ETP platter as a slightly brighter platter with less weight.
I bought the original copper bonded platter and I still use it. I can testify that it does produce BASS and lots of it. I've seen three new platters being developed in the time that I have owned Mike's original. It's great to see the 1210 being developed at such a pace. I dont think I'll be changing my platter just yet but it would be interesting to see how this new version develops. Has anyone actually compared Mike's alternative platter to the old Funk acryllic platter?
Spot on, Dave. Competition in business should always be viewed as a good thing! :)
No-one has a God-given right to forever be 'da man'.
Marco.
Apart from you of course dear lord and master :lol:
I will hopefully get my ETP platter before the Owston meeting on the 9th (come on mike get your finger out :) )
If anyone who has a MKI funk platter cares to join the party in Owston we can dance merrily around the room to Sister Sledge comparing platters :lol:
I invited David Price as well so I would say he could be judge and arbitrator as he has no axes to grind, if it does not arrive then hey ho!
I started it all :lol:
And I have ordered a Platter from Mike
Can I come out now :sofa: PLEASE ! :D
Why not try one upgrade at time Mr Allen- ie; the bearing:scratch:
Then there is the " Turbo" to try too.........:ner:
Audio Al
01-11-2013, 17:26
Then there is the " Turbo" to try too.........:ner:
Don't forget the Timestep PSU :ner:
All or nothing lad all or nowt
PS , there is something else as well ;)
Audio Al
01-11-2013, 22:36
Is my Croft enjoying his holiday round your house :D
PaulStewart
02-11-2013, 00:04
OK for my two penn'orth here goes. We have two 1210s (got the second this week) we use them for dubbing vinyl direct to video and having finished the Composer-1 once I've done the GL78 I'll be doing our Techies soon. Bearing and power supplies first and then probably platters but maybe just mats. I'm looking at all the options the MN bearing is on my list and I want to audition it. To be honest I'll listen to everything I can, but I find this almost evangelical relentless plugging of all things Funk really off putting. It's a platter FFS not the Holy Grail, the tone arms are just that, not relics of a mediaeval saint. Mike, sorry but you have to take it on the chin, if you invent a better mouse trap, others will always try and improve it.
Best regards
Ali Tait
02-11-2013, 00:15
:D
Mike_New
02-11-2013, 01:41
"Mike, sorry but you have to take it on the chin, if you invent a better mouse trap, others will always try and improve it."
I guess you are right, perhaps someone will put me up for an OBB for services to the SL experience.
OK for my two penn'orth here goes.
…To be honest I'll listen to everything I can, but I find this almost evangelical relentless plugging of all things Funk really off putting. It's a platter FFS not the Holy Grail, the tone arms are just that, not relics of a mediaeval saint…
Best regards
…and for my two penn'orth:
Paul, thank you for your post. it is appreciated for this is not one sided. you think it’s off putting?
Have any of you, for a second, stopped to think what’s it like for me watching on the sidelines? – That really is all I’m doing, watching, trust me.
The number of times I could have jumped in but Marco knows I refuse to get involved when mud starts. I really regret all this ballyhoo. Correction. I HATE it. Oh well, what are door mats for?
This week has been very depressing and I do mean depressing – a certain sage member can attest to that but I won’t drag him in. (aren’t PMs great?)
I agree. It is just a platter and an arm and a bearing and… good as they may be (or not). The long and the short is that someone up there has given me a certain skill set. I either use it to make better product or sit at home kitting. One gives serious grief. Clue: It’s not pearl one, drop one.
Why do it? When I succeed, others enjoy things they didn’t previously have…and the buzz knowing that is pretty darned good.
After all my efforts you might still prefer something else (as stated by members) but at least you have a choice and that is a good thing…unless you want to go back to the good old days of “sell you speakers, divorce your granny but get an LP12”
Having said that, things there haven’t changed much there, either, only the names have changed…ah, plus ca change.:steam:
Bye.
Is my Croft enjoying his holiday round your house :D
Yes, when is the multi component shootout gonna take place?:eek:
Oldpinkman
02-11-2013, 08:25
Chill Arthur. Walk the dog. You know what they say - "Those that can do - those that can't talk about it"
Paul has a degree, and audio industry experience, and TWO technics SL1200's. If you got shot of 3 or 4 of yours you might wise up :lol:
Oldpinkman
02-11-2013, 08:38
OK for my two penn'orth here goes. the tone arms are just that, not relics of a mediaeval saint.
Arthur - you old rascal - you've had me over again! That graph of your "non-tone arm" - you little tinker. HiFi World! You did it with a crayoning set!
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/FXRcurve_zps31c2d7c6.jpg (http://s1315.photobucket.com/user/oldpinkman/media/FXRcurve_zps31c2d7c6.jpg.html)
Paul knows you know. The Pip's no good either, and has been bettered by countless others Paul knows. I told Owen at the weekend and you can imagine how distraught he was. If it hadn't been for the storm damage to his house on Monday, he'd probably still be laughing now. I wonder if he realises Paul is in "pro-audio" and doubtless could do better than the AHB2 too. :doh:
Oh to have talent, and a few patents...;)
OK for my two penn'orth here goes. We have two 1210s (got the second this week) we use them for dubbing vinyl direct to video and having finished the Composer-1 once I've done the GL78 I'll be doing our Techies soon. Bearing and power supplies first and then probably platters but maybe just mats. I'm looking at all the options the MN bearing is on my list and I want to audition it. To be honest I'll listen to everything I can, but I find this almost evangelical relentless plugging of all things Funk really off putting. It's a platter FFS not the Holy Grail, the tone arms are just that, not relics of a mediaeval saint.
Hi Paul,
Nice chatting the other day, mate. We do have quite a lot in common, in terms of our audio proclivities, and it was fascinating hearing all about your involvement in the recording industry, within studios, and the knowledge you have gained from that (mucho respect) :cool:
With regard to the apparent 'Funk/PT mania' that exists (and here you are no doubt referring largely to Richard's input), I understand where you're coming from. He does become somewhat fixated at times with all things Funk, as indeed a glance at his posts to date here shows.
However... One could argue that Richard's Funk/PT 'obsession' is no greater than the (modified) Technics T/T 'obsession' which exists here, and so it would be rather hypocritical to criticise or exclude one without the other. The reality, of course, is that either 'obsession' is nothing of the sort and simply an expression of how passionate the respective fans are of recommending to others what they believe works :exactly:
In that respect, I would say that his passion for all things Funk/PT is justified.
Furthermore, as this thread is about a new platter being released for the Technics, from the Funk Firm, it would be somewhat churlish not to expect discussion related to that (and references to PT) appearing occasionally... In any case, I'm cool with it, and whilst I acknowledge your concerns, I hope that you can also see where I'm coming from :)
Marco.
"Mike, sorry but you have to take it on the chin, if you invent a better mouse trap, others will always try and improve it."
I guess you are right, perhaps someone will put me up for an OBB for services to the SL experience.
LOL - it's already written in stone, mate! Let's not forget too, the role AoS has played (and continues to play) in that... ;)
Marco.
It would seem that two posters in particular are reading this thread and only seeing the negatives, which is somewhat disappointing. I refer the gentlemen concerned to one of my earlier posts http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?28736-Alternative-platters/page15:hmm: #143
Oldpinkman
02-11-2013, 10:42
Thanks Marco
I appreciate I go on about P*** T****** and F*** F*** a lot, but as you rightly point out we all tend to talk about what we know about and have experience of, and I lead a sheltered life. I have also recently posted about ligament strains, storm damage and the death of a friend of my stepsons, Morris Oxfords, Weatherspoons pubs, Dacs and power supplies, Firebottles lovely VALVE phono stage, and of course the usual Steadman bashing, and a few others I forget about.
I prefer enthusing (even a bit too much) to denigrating. I'll try to get out more :cool:
PaulStewart
02-11-2013, 10:54
Hi Marco,
Two back in the eighties the New Yorker magazine ran a cartoon of two tramps sitting on a bench in central park looking at the bumper sticker of a car that said I heart NY and one says to the other "I dunno I LIKE New York". My problems not with the products, I'd like to hear them, it's the religious zeal with which PT/Funk is relentlessly punted. In the flat earth days, when I was first in the trade, with two far superior TTs to the LP12, ( a precursor of the 1200 as it happens) I expected to be burned at the stake for heresy :) I haven't felt that for years, until now :( Personal attacks on people you disagree with have no place on well run forums, I half expect the inquisition on my doorstep for the "Crime" of not thinking that the Pip is the hifi version of the Ark of the Covenant. :)
In my opinion there needs to be a lot less hyperbole and a lot more accuracy, FYI Richard I have a degree AND a doctorate, both in audio related fields and I never said the Pip was no good, I said I've heard ones I feel are better, each to their own.
Regards to all
It's no religious zeal. Marco has said many times that if something better comes along he will give it a fair listen, and I agree with that. It's hardly blinkered flat earthism that only allowed a few brands to exist.
The fact is that my combination of Mike New and Funk components has given me the best sound I've heard in my system, and one which approaches what I've heard from the Air Force and Continuum when I've heard them. I'm not saying 'equals' but then I've spent less than 10% of their entry ticket. If a significant improvement comes along that will fit my deck, I'll give it a try and report fairly on it, just as I've always done.
PaulStewart
02-11-2013, 11:16
Hi Martin
My complaints of zealotry are not aimed at you in any way
Paul S
I hear you, Paul - and rest asssured that your comments have been noted. Let's move on now and get back on-topic :)
Marco.
Mike_New
02-11-2013, 22:41
Paul,
It would seem that maybe you would have the abillity and equipment to persue an experiment I have been
considering for some time now. There is always discussion on the type of mat to use (and platters for that matter)
My idea is this: to actually try to measure the amount of reflected/transmitted energy through the record material.
This could be done using a second arm running on a perfectly smooth surface, I have used a CD (recorded side) on my single SME V
and the surface noise is very low. I guess a piece of thin plate glass would be better. I know this is what we used to check the surfaceometers (which used a MM cartridge) when I worked at AWRE in the metrology section for a while. Now the second arm could be connected to the required electronics and a speaker, whilst the first arm is actually reading the track but not being output to a speaker. What do you think?
With some extra effort an annulus (annuli?) could be made so that various positions on the record could be measured.
This way even the effectiveness of centre weights and maybe bearings could be measured.
Effective sonic connection of the plain medium to the record could be a problem.
The ultimate perhaps would be a laser sensor.
PS: If you think this is off topic Marco then move it to another thread.
howlindawg
02-11-2013, 23:05
It's nice to see we've all decided to be civilised again in here.
The quality and precision workmanship in Mikes work speaks for itself and certainly doesn't require any shilling now that MCRU is distributing his products. I'd certainly be interested to see the results of a shootout between all the available platters as this may well prove to be my christmas pressie. :eyebrows:
WOStantonCS100
03-11-2013, 04:40
...Marco has said many times that if something better comes along he will give it a fair listen, and I agree with that...
The semantics of the language. I almost cringe when statements like that are made, not because I don't know what you're really getting at, Martin; but, because of how some folks quickly read a statement like that without tagging on, in their own minds, "...to me." In other words, failing to acknowledge personal preference in audio. It's that out with the old, in with the new, mentality. To actually say something sounds better, objectively, requires the only tools we have at our disposal: scientific measurement and a goal. Nevertheless, justifiably and again based on preference, measurements are rarely the deal breakers for audio loving folks.
Is your Dynavector "better" than my "Trans-Fi"? It just depends on whether you or I are listening and what we are listening for. ;) I'm not singling you out, Martin, you know that. Moreover, this maybe for others out there, in general. The different platters, all of them, like cartridges, have different sounds. Not a one of them is "better" than any other, except as a preference of the listener/owner. In that respect, they are all equally as good as the other, including the stock platter.
Now, to Mike's point. Measuring the reflectivity of platters (and mats) back to the cantilever/stylus of a cartridge for specific frequencies (if it could be done in an agreed upon scientific way) would give us the plain facts about, indeed, how "dead" they are or how effective they are in "not offending" the music. I already know what the outcome would be; because, even if a platter was found to egregiously color parts of the audio band, those who prefer a particular combination would still continue to use it; as well they should if it suits them.
As an aside, out of curiosity, (Arthur), how will the sub and main platter be joined on the Mk. 2 version? Will the torque of the 1200 motor effect that join over time (start up / quick electronic braking especially with a 78 rpm mod)? Will the two platters "slip" if one tries to clean a record on the table with that setup? Perhaps, dumb questions; but, these are the things I think about. (I should get out more.) There are things that I, personally, take for granted because the Techy is such a tank. I've never owned a sub/main platter TT and reading about some TD 124s with warped platters and some Regas that "crest and trough" give me pause. I'm assuming the bottom of the main platter and top of the hub would have to be near perfectly flat and level. Just asking... ...I generally do a stupid amount of research before plunking down my coins. As I posted earlier, what are your thoughts on replacing the lettering that doesn't seem to be too popular with polishing the sides (less noticeable glue join) at the same cost?
Hi Biff,
I think Martin meant 'better' (to me), but omitted the latter. With the 'to me' bit in place, his statement is entirely accurate. Furthermore, in that context, the same also applies with him :)
Marco.
As an aside, out of curiosity, (Arthur), how will the sub and main platter be joined on the Mk. 2 version? A relatively large surface area and suitable choice of interface material provides the resistive force for friction to do its job...brakes after all have been known to be effective in stopping up to 2 tons of cars quite efficiently. By comparison the inertia of a platter rotating at a measly .5 rps doesn't take an awful lot of holding.
Will the torque of the 1200 motor effect that join over time (start up / quick electronic braking especially with a 78 rpm mod)? Answered from above, relative to frictional forces.
Will the two platters "slip" if one tries to clean a record on the table with that setup? Not in any of the tests we've conducted.
Perhaps, dumb questions; but, these are the things I think about. (I should get out more.) There are things that I, personally, take for granted because the Techy is such a tank. I've never owned a sub/main platter TT and reading about some TD 124s with warped platters: My observation there is that you quote specifically warping, as opposed to a default condition for any and all such designs.
if we look at Aristons, LP12 TD 150/160/125 et al. So, not something that comes to most people's mind over the past decades. As for "some Regas that "crest and trough"", again the same argument applies. Any component in production can be individually found to "fail" but as a general rule, all these designs have worked over time and any failures, ought to be regarded no differently than a transistor blowing up.
Finally on this point, and by contrast, and yes, I too should get out more, but in my long tenure of turntable designer, I have noted many, MANY warped single piece platters and never really gave ti much thought. Simply, production effects that are sorted by a good back-up department and then never thought about again.
I'm assuming the bottom of the main platter and top of the hub would have to be near perfectly flat and level. Naturally.
Just asking... ...I generally do a stupid amount of research before plunking down my coins. And, why shouldn't you?
As I posted earlier, what are your thoughts on replacing the lettering that doesn't seem to be too popular with polishing the sides (less noticeable glue join) at the same cost?
Whilst removal of the lettering is now a given, we are awaiting figurers from supplier, but back of a fag pack, I have been advised that the cost of polishing does not equate to removal of the lettering...
For the record: Our products are costed on a simple, "industry" formula of manufacturing cost to final price ratio, weighted as necessary by factors which include manufacturing rejects - you should see our reject pile of mats!! and so on. So, if our costs of polishing turn out to be less then the "estimated price quoted will be amended accordingly.
Arthur
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 08:00
That's a long one biff, which it wouldn't surprise me if arthur missed. I'll ask him to take a look. Your point about tastes, preferences and priorities is a good one - and evident among all of aos discussion. I think I may have reacted in a slightly prickly way to paul stewart because his first post about the products I use was addressed personally to me by name, and rather than express an opinion or different taste, told me in a manner I found patronising that other product WAS better (as an absolute).
Whilst our tastes in what we hear are the only sensible basis for choosing our hifi, measurements can help objectively confirm what we hear. I hope to get the plots of the headphone measurements we took last weekend soon, and publish them next to the auditioning comments i have already posted. They were quite interesting. (Somebody tell stephen fry!)
There are also some interesting thoughts about those tonearm plots and how mechanical measurements in what are part of a transducer affect what we hear, but this thread probably isn't the place to discuss them :)
sq225917
03-11-2013, 09:11
I'm just wondering it the various designers of add on/replacement mats and platters for the 1210 haves done any measurement to see what effect the altered mass has on the compensation circuit?
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 09:39
I wonder where this idea originated from? :) PS I've sent you some links.
I'm just wondering it the various designers of add on/replacement mats and platters for the 1210 haves done any measurement to see what effect the altered mass has on the compensation circuit?
Yes, also my thoughts. The compensation circuit of the 1200/1210 does not implement fuzzy logic and does not factor in the rotating inertia of the platter; it assumes zero inertia and instant response, hence the very light standard platter with minimal peripheral mass.
________________
I had a look at Mike's website last night and I must say I was left a bit confused. He only lists one platter and that is an aluminium one with a copper mat bonded to it. However, I believe he also does a Delrin one and there is also a slide show picture on his site of one with metal inserts.
------------------
My own platter is in two parts and has an inner and outer element. The outer platter rests on a precision machined 1mm wide raised ring and absolutely zero slip exists, even when a record is cleaned. The whole idea of platter, or record, slip is a red herring.
For the sake of clarity: please accept that ALL statements by me imply the "to me" as a given. I don't make absolute statements unless I specifically mean to. Almost all contributions by members are opinion, but we don't need to keep stating the 'IMO' bit.
Yes, also my thoughts. The compensation circuit of the 1200/1210 does not implement fuzzy logic and does not factor in the rotating inertia of the platter; it assumes zero inertia and instant response, hence the very light standard platter with minimal peripheral mass.
________________
I had a look at Mike's website last night and I must say I was left a bit confused. He only lists one platter and that is an aluminium one with a copper mat bonded to it. However, I believe he also does a Delrin one and there is also a slide show picture on his site of one with metal inserts.
------------------
My own platter is in two parts and has an inner and outer element. The outer platter rests on a precision machined 1mm wide raised ring and absolutely zero slip exists, even when a record is cleaned. The whole idea of platter, or record, slip is a red herring.
why be confused when you have no intention of buying a platter anyway? :)
all you have done is potentially confuse would be purchasers of said platter!
to avoid said confusion here is the ETP platter (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/analogue-lp-s/825-mike-new-technics-sl12001210-platter.html)
Mike's website only needs updating and considering he is a one man band I am sure he can be forgiven for prioritizing production ;)
Yes, also my thoughts. The compensation circuit of the 1200/1210 does not implement fuzzy logic and does not factor in the rotating inertia of the platter; it assumes zero inertia and instant response, hence the very light standard platter with minimal peripheral mass.
That's one of the main reasons why, after conducting the comparison, I moved from using the high-mass MN platter (as good as it was in some ways) to the much lower mass (and I believe similar in weight to the stock item) Funk Firm [MK I] platter, particularly after hearing the (IMO detrimental) sonic effect a high-mass platter has on the efficacy of the internal circuitry of the T/T, as intended originally by Matsushita Electric/Panasonic.
With the Funk (MK I) platter in place, music just seemed to sound 'right' (much more so than with the stock platter, which is a victim of its sub-optimal resonance characteristics and mechanical integrity), especially in terms of crucial aspects relating to timing accuracy, in a way that escaped the high-mass aluminium platter, which in comparison imparted a 'one-note' effect in the bass and an overall heavier and rather 'ponderous' sound, which to my ears was unnatural.
In that respect, I would also expect Mike's ETP platter to similarly excel, as I believe the design of the Technics suits the use of a lighter platter, although one can argue over the optimum material used for its construction. Consequently, with the new MKII Funk platter reputed as being heavier than the MK I, it is also one of the reservations I have about it, although as ever, the proof of the pudding will be in the listening! :)
Marco.
so why you never heard mikes etp platter chief, its been for sale for yonks?
why be confused when you have no intention of buying a platter anyway? :)
all you have done is potentially confuse would be purchasers of said platter!
to avoid said confusion here is the ETP platter (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/analogue-lp-s/825-mike-new-technics-sl12001210-platter.html)
£445 for the bearing and an astonishing £695 for the platter and no measurements have been done to demonstrate that any genuine improvement is on offer. I'm not saying they don't give a genuine improvement but at that level of expenditure there should be more than what we have here which is just the implementation of theory backed up with some subjective reviews. This is engineering, not magic and I think Mark is right to raise questions especially as he has a lot of practical experience in this area. This isn't in the trade section so my understanding is that difficult questions and dissenting opinions are acceptable. Or we can just keep on buying and trying different platters etc for the rest of our lives.
so why you never heard mikes etp platter chief, its been for sale for yonks?
Because no-one has sent me one yet to try! Do you want send me an ETP platter to audition and I'll give you my opinion of it? :)
I discussed this already with Mike, earlier on the thread. The plan is for all three platters (Funk MK I and MKII, plus an MN ETP) to be at Martin's gaff, sometime before Christmas, where relevant comparisons will be made in his system, using both my T/T and his, and reported in full on the forum.
Marco.
why be confused when you have no intention of buying a platter anyway? :)
all you have done is potentially confuse would be purchasers of said platter!
to avoid said confusion here is the ETP platter (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/analogue-lp-s/825-mike-new-technics-sl12001210-platter.html)
Well, because I thought Mike (or someone) would clarify things - anyone looking at his website will not find the 'ETP Platter' (perhaps he will be updating it). You are right, I have no intention of buying a platter for the Technics (or a Technics deck), but I presume I'm still allowed to be interested?
£445 for the bearing and an astonishing £695 for the platter and no measurements have been done to demonstrate that any genuine improvement is on offer. I'm not saying they don't give a genuine improvement but at that level of expenditure there should be more than what we have here which is just the implementation of theory backed up with some subjective reviews. This is engineering, not magic and I think Mark is right to raise questions especially as he has a lot of practical experience in this area. This isn't in the trade section so my understanding is that difficult questions and dissenting opinions are acceptable. Or we can just keep on buying and trying different platters etc for the rest of our lives.
dude, who gives a shit what it measures like? you don't listen to music with a slide rule? :)
what it sounds like is all that counts as far as I am concerned, mike has sold 250+ bearings, not one single complaint, I have sold about 20, again no complaints and no one sending it back, for £400+ if it was no good sonically there is no way I would keep it
in all honesty the human race has lost the ability to think for itself, we need to be told what to buy nowadays, look at trip advisor, years ago we just looked in the thomson brochure and booked, if the holiday was crap we did not go back to that hotel, nowadays we need to be told where to go on holiday!
its the same with hifi as it is with most items sold, cars, pc's, beds, whatever it is, we look to experts to advise us what to buy
if people bought hifi based on measurements hifiman would sell no headphones as they measure poorly but sound incredible!
Well, because I thought Mike (or someone) would clarify things - anyone looking at his website will not find the 'ETP Platter' (perhaps he will be updating it). You are right, I have no intention of buying a platter for the Technics (or a Technics deck), but I presume I'm still allowed to be interested?
you can do whatever you want dude, unless you are married then that's different :lol:
Yes, I know I can David - the question was rhetorical; but you still haven't clarified what platters are available. You sell his ETP platter, Mike doesn't list it but does list an aluminium and copper one. He also shows, but doesn't otherwise mention, a platter with inserts. The OP question was about what platter options are there - so what platter options does he do?
1/ Funk Mk1 = solid acrylic platter?
2/ Funk Mk2 = Achromat and glass laminate platter?
3/ Just put an Achromat on it
4/ Put an acrylic mat on it
5/ put a copper mat on it
6/ Mike New FTP platter
7/ Mike new aluminium and copper platter
8/ Something else he makes?
______________
There is absolutely nothing wrong with performing measurements. I'm not suggesting that one should be a slave to such measurements but they are a useful tool that should be utilised where possible. Platter speed accuracy and rotational constancy is one area that can be measured.
dude, who gives a shit what it measures like? you don't listen to music with a slide rule? :)
if people bought hifi based on measurements hifiman would sell no headphones as they measure poorly but sound incredible!
You don't do mechanical engineering without measurements. As for the headphones would a truer statement be 'they measure poorly but sound coloured (which some people will prefer)' ?
I appreciate no-one has sent a bearing back. That implies to me it is at least as good as the exisiting bearing at doing the job it is intended to do, but that is all I glean from it. After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse. I'd be surprised if it did not improve wow, flutter and noise, or at least one of those parameters. It's the fact that we don't know if it does or not because no-one has measured this when it should have been the first thing done before offering it up for sale.
I'm being controversial and a pain I the arse I know but these points should be raised even if most people will dismiss them with 'well it sounds good to me.'
You don't do mechanical engineering without measurements. As for the headphones would a truer statement be 'they measure poorly but sound coloured (which some people will prefer)' ?
I appreciate no-one has sent a bearing back. That implies to me it is at least as good as the exisiting bearing at doing the job it is intended to do, but that is all I glean from it. After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse. I'd be surprised if it did not improve wow, flutter and noise, or at least one of those parameters. It's the fact that we don't know if it does or not because no-one has measured this when it should have been the first thing done before offering it up for sale.
I'm being controversial and a pain I the arse I know but these points should be raised even if most people will dismiss them with 'well it sounds good to me.'
An honest to goodness question Martin, if via a demonstration you heard for yourself the improvement the MN bearing can bring to a Techie would you still require a spec sheet?
I would welcome relevant measurements being produced, if anyone has the wherewithal to do it, as I'm confident that they would simply confirm what those of us who have upgraded to these products can clearly hear (and have clearly heard since day one of installing them)! ;)
Marco.
The plan is for all three platters (Funk MK I and MKII, plus an MN ETP) to be at Martin's gaff, sometime before Christmas, where relevant comparisons will be made in his system, using both my T/T and his, and reported in full on the forum.
I now have the Funk Mk. II hub and platter and will be setting it up for listening tonight when I get home. When I relate my findings, everything I say will be 'IMO' ;)
Yes, I know I can David - the question was rhetorical; but you still haven't clarified what platters are available. You sell his FTP platter, Mike doesn't list it but does list an aluminium and copper one. He also shows, but doesn't otherwise mention, a platter with inserts. The OP question was about what platter options are there - so what platter options does he do?
1/ Funk Mk1 = solid acrylic platter?
2/ Funk Mk2 = Achromat and glass laminate platter?
3/ Just put an Achromat on it
4/ Put an acrylic mat on it
5/ put a copper mat on it
6/ Mike New FTP platter
7/ Mike new aluminium and copper platter
8/ Something else he makes?
______________
There is absolutely nothing wrong with performing measurements. I'm not suggesting that one should be a slave to such measurements but they are a useful tool that should be utilised where possible. Platter speed accuracy and rotational constancy is one area that can be measured.
There is a mike new platter on my website Mark, its made from an engineering thermoplastic hence ETP, its for sale via the UK so no import duty, vat or parcelforce handling fee to pay.
There is a copper version but I think Mike has stopped making it, he may advise better.
There is also the ETP platter with brass inserts which I do not list on my site "yet"
Hope that helps
P.S You can put the record straight onto the surface of Mike's platter or use a mat, I recommend the Oyaide BR-12
I appreciate no-one has sent a bearing back. That implies to me it is at least as good as the exisiting bearing at doing the job it is intended to do, but that is all I glean from it. After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse. I'd be surprised if it did not improve wow, flutter and noise, or at least one of those parameters. It's the fact that we don't know if it does or not because no-one has measured this when it should have been the first thing done before offering it up for sale.
There is such thing as mechanical appreciation, which I've said before. You only have to hold the Technics and Mike New bearings in your hand, rotate them, feel the play, look at the housings and you KNOW the MN bearing is going to be better at its job. Listening to them only confirms that initial perception.
I now have the Funk Mk. II hub and platter and will be setting it up for listening tonight when I get home. When I relate my findings, everything I say will be 'IMO' ;)
Cool - I look forward to it. Btw, have a look through your diary for which Saturday would suit in late November/early December, and we'll sort out a sesh. Hopefully, we'll also have an ETP platter to play with by then! :gig:
Marco.
An honest to goodness question Martin, if via a demonstration you heard for yourself the improvement the MN bearing can bring to a Techie would you still require a spec sheet?
In a back to back demo in my own system, 2 identical decks except for the bearing, if I heard a very noticeable improvement straight away then, no, I would not need a spec sheet. Even if it was in an unfamiliar system if the improvement was obvious then I would certainly buy one. You have to appreciate that there is no way I would attempt to fit this myself, which means carting the deck down to the pro shop, waiting a week or so for them to get round to it, collecting the deck, then trying to remember what the deck sounded like pre-modified, then finally, if I decided I didn't think it worth the money, reversing the whole process. Much easier just to look at the measurements.
In a back to back demo in my own system, 2 identical decks except for the bearing, if I heard a very noticeable improvement straight away then, no, I would not need a spec sheet. Even if it was in an unfamiliar system if the improvement was obvious then I would certainly buy one. You have to appreciate that there is no way I would attempt to fit this myself, which means carting the deck down to the pro shop, waiting a week or so for them to get round to it, collecting the deck, then trying to remember what the deck sounded like pre-modified, then finally, if I decided I didn't think it worth the money, reversing the whole process. Much easier just to look at the measurements.
Having performed a bearing replacement myself (VA bearing) I can tell you with confidence that it is a doddle to do. If I can do it anyone can... :lol:
In a back to back demo in my own system, 2 identical decks except for the bearing, if I heard a very noticeable improvement straight away then, no, I would not need a spec sheet. Even if it was in an unfamiliar system if the improvement was obvious then I would certainly buy one. You have to appreciate that there is no way I would attempt to fit this myself, which means carting the deck down to the pro shop, waiting a week or so for them to get round to it, collecting the deck, then trying to remember what the deck sounded like pre-modified, then finally, if I decided I didn't think it worth the money, reversing the whole process. Much easier just to look at the measurements.
Martin, I'm sure that if it came to it, there would be a few folk here on AoS (some perhaps not too far from you), with the necessary ability to fit an MN bearing for you to your T/T, so don't let that be a reason to stop you from upgrading your stock bearing :)
As they say: 'where there's a will, there's a way' ;)
Marco.
There is such thing as mechanical appreciation, which I've said before. You only have to hold the Technics and Mike New bearings in your hand, rotate them, feel the play, look at the housings and you KNOW the MN bearing is going to be better at its job. Listening to them only confirms that initial perception.
That indeed is the reality... :)
Marco.
There is such thing as mechanical appreciation, which I've said before. You only have to hold the Technics and Mike New bearings in your hand, rotate them, feel the play, look at the housings and you KNOW the MN bearing is going to be better at its job. Listening to them only confirms that initial perception.
If an item is already doing 100% of the job it is required to do then engineering it some more is a waste of time and money. I'm not suggesting that is the case here but that is a principle that engineers operate on. So although I understand your point it is not a good enough reason alone to make me buy one. I seem to recall that Simon SQ did some measurements on his deck and an SL1200 so if he can do it I don't see what the big stumbling block is here. As I pointed out on another thread, measurements demonstrating the superiority of the replacement bearing would actually increase sales.
howlindawg
03-11-2013, 12:07
After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse.
No offence, but at £445 I would expect most people to return it if it didn't make for a significant improvement in percieved sound quality.
It only takes a few minutes to swap bearings so why would someone part with that amount of cash if they find it offers no improvement?
PaulStewart
03-11-2013, 12:12
Paul,
It would seem that maybe you would have the abillity and equipment to persue an experiment I have been
considering for some time now. There is always discussion on the type of mat to use (and platters for that matter)
My idea is this: to actually try to measure the amount of reflected/transmitted energy through the record material.
This could be done using a second arm running on a perfectly smooth surface, I have used a CD (recorded side) on my single SME V
and the surface noise is very low. I guess a piece of thin plate glass would be better. I know this is what we used to check the surfaceometers (which used a MM cartridge) when I worked at AWRE in the metrology section for a while. Now the second arm could be connected to the required electronics and a speaker, whilst the first arm is actually reading the track but not being output to a speaker. What do you think?
With some extra effort an annulus (annuli?) could be made so that various positions on the record could be measured.
This way even the effectiveness of centre weights and maybe bearings could be measured.
Effective sonic connection of the plain medium to the record could be a problem.
The ultimate perhaps would be a laser sensor.
PS: If you think this is off topic Marco then move it to another thread.
Mike, this has given me a few ideas, I'll PM you some thoughts
Cheers
chris@panteg
03-11-2013, 12:23
You don't do mechanical engineering without measurements. As for the headphones would a truer statement be 'they measure poorly but sound coloured (which some people will prefer)' ?
I appreciate no-one has sent a bearing back. That implies to me it is at least as good as the exisiting bearing at doing the job it is intended to do, but that is all I glean from it. After going to the trouble of fitting it you would only return it if it actually made things worse. I'd be surprised if it did not improve wow, flutter and noise, or at least one of those parameters. It's the fact that we don't know if it does or not because no-one has measured this when it should have been the first thing done before offering it up for sale.
I'm being controversial and a pain I the arse I know but these points should be raised even if most people will dismiss them with 'well it sounds good to me.'
Vantage audio claim a -2 DB improvement with a modified bearing , perhaps Noel Keywood could test it ? Any chance of this I wonder .
I think it it would be useful to know and put this to bed once and for all .
No offence, but at £445 I would expect most people to return it if it didn't make for a significant improvement in percieved sound quality.
It only takes a few minutes to swap bearings so why would someone part with that amount of cash if they find it offers no improvement?
Martin - no offence taken - There will be a number of factors that will effect the percentage of returns of any product that is not actually faulty. In this specific case, and as I understand it, until recently that would mean returning the bearing to Australia. In fact I'm not sure returns were an option at that point ( although I stand corrected if they were). In any case tweaking a hi-fi system is rarely straightforward. I can imagine many people fitting the bearing, listening over time and thinking that it was making some positive contribution in some areas. These things are rarely night and day. The general consensus is that the item does make an improvement so even if you can't hear it you may decide that it is due to issues elsewhere in your system, that, once sorted, will let the improvement show through. The price is at the level where the likely purchaser is going to have a fair amount of disposable income and quite possibly leads a very busy life - enough to add to the lethargy factor in terms of returns. 'I can't hear an improvement so I could send it back and get a refund but what the hell, it works fine and it's just too much bother.'
kininigin
03-11-2013, 12:54
I can imagine many people fitting the bearing, listening over time and thinking that it was making some positive contribution in some areas. These things are rarely night and day.
In the case of the MNB against the stock,i would argue that there is a night and day difference,which is immediate and doesn't require lots of listening time! I was dubious about all the claims at first but having taken the plunge i can see it was wholly justified! :)
Whether the platters offer the same level of upgrade i don't know,so will be interesting hearing people's thoughts on that!
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 12:59
An honest to goodness question Martin, if via a demonstration you heard for yourself the improvement the MN bearing can bring to a Techie would you still require a spec sheet?
The problem is that's so hard to do. It is this issue of route to market and the decline of the hifi retailers I bought my gear from 30 years ago. I want to go into a shop and listen to the shortlist I'm Interested in. A few on here are priviliged to be able to borrow kit extensively. That is a tiny percentage of normal users. They need shops.
And measurements are both valuable in product development and "screening" for auditioning. I'll post those headphone measurements soon. Whilst measurements don't tell all they give some useful clues about whether that sound we like and choose is hi fidelity or hi likeability (coloured). The headphone tests made that point really well
Martin Colloms once did some turntable/platter/ mat tests once for 'Choice at the very least and the confirmation was definitely that what was right for one turntable (Dumpa style squidgey mat on a Thorens 160 for example) could be a disaster if the same mat was plonked on a different deck, such as an LP12 in this case, whereas a Linn felt mat to me sounded horrid on a GL75, which sounded far better with its own heavy ribbed one.
At the time (80's), the material as used in PT (and Void?) platters was judged to be the closest to properly optimising/terminating the vinyl when played as any material could get. I'm surprised that composite platters are now 'the thing,' unless it's for cost/machining reasons?
The thing is, any proper objective suggestions or methodology on such stuff has gone out of the window I reckon, so now, one man's huge improvement may actually be taking the sonics away from what is strictly the higher fidelity (to the source material) approach. Selling mail order and bake-offs is a fun thing for the hobbyist, but hardly takes the industry forward in my current opinion - and no, decent dealers like happy customers who DON'T keep coming back every few months for numerous dubious 'upgrades,' swinging with the tides. Rather, a good few clients who stay in touch occasionally over a twenty five or more year period for occasional major and thoughtful changes.
Recalling Pink Triangle introduced the world to the impedance match concept in the guise of the acrylic platter (obvious).
Martin Colloms then went forth, measured and produced results that showed a nicely damped response to a pulse.
What was not obvious was the actual effect that this transformation achieved. But it did sound "good".
If we look at FXR, measurements show a similar, order of magnitude improvement in the measurements.
Again, we extrapolate to a highly beneficial sonic experience.
But again, can we put our finger on just what we are going to experience? Not in the least. We only know we ought to be in for a treat.
Now, what about dynamic wow? The hypothesis seemed reasonable.
(Briefly: with 2g the minimum force required to keep the stylus in the groove at all times, track a 3kHz reference tone, apply a 2g load (a dustbug set to 2g!) and measure any drift)
Look! The results indeed showed problems and on that basis, deleterious conclusions were drawn on the outcome. (In the hysteria surrounding the LP12, the damage to Pink’s credibility cannot be overstated).
Only this time, there was no justification whatsoever. Although the full analysis is too long to provide here, try this gem:
In the publication, all turntables slowed (as they ought); all that is except DDs, which measured zero! Nil. Nix. Nada. I.e. Perfect. (Go dig out your original HiFi Choices)
What happened? Given the settling time, the servos had kicked in and pulled the platters up to speed. Moral: Measure at your peril!
Back to the thread: Having agreed that the original platter is indeed a weak link, we want to develop an improved one. But designers have their individual approaches.
One can indeed attempt to measure reflected energy but is that all there is to it? What about (as mentioned) the effect the servo has on the individual inertias?
Then we have the support quotient (for want of a label) to consider.
Here’s the problem: Regrettably, the ear, engineering solutions and measurements all travel along disparate paths, crossing fleetingly here and there.
Just look to cars and their setups when it comes to the driving experience. I like this car but you prefer that (and so just where does that leave the measurements?)
Similarly in our individual listening environments and systems, some will enhance and some will detract.
When developing a product, for what it’s worth, I bring to bear my 30 years experience into the design phase (creativity), develop interesting measurement methods - which I don’t always disclose (rigour) - and listen. Much tinkering and if I’m happy, the cake is baked. (The blend).
Ultimately you are left with cutting a slice, trying it when I hope you like it.
That’s subjectivism.
Voyd actually made two different 'plastic' platters. The cheaper was acrylic but they also made them from Lexan (polycarbonate).
In the case of the MNB against the stock,i would argue that there is a night and day difference,which is immediate and doesn't require lots of listening time!
Indeed - again this is the reality. Subtle is not the level of sonic improvement noticed when one upgrades from the stock Technics bearing to an MN one. It is immediate and fundamental. For 'subtle', see the likes of upgrading the headshell on the stock tonearm for a Sumiko.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 13:52
Martin - no offence taken - There will be a number of factors that will effect the percentage of returns of any product that is not actually faulty. In this specific case, and as I understand it, until recently that would mean returning the bearing to Australia. In fact I'm not sure returns were an option at that point ( although I stand corrected if they were). In any case tweaking a hi-fi system is rarely straightforward. I can imagine many people fitting the bearing, listening over time and thinking that it was making some positive contribution in some areas. These things are rarely night and day. The general consensus is that the item does make an improvement so even if you can't hear it you may decide that it is due to issues elsewhere in your system, that, once sorted, will let the improvement show through. The price is at the level where the likely purchaser is going to have a fair amount of disposable income and quite possibly leads a very busy life - enough to add to the lethargy factor in terms of returns. 'I can't hear an improvement so I could send it back and get a refund but what the hell, it works fine and it's just too much bother.'
+1.
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 13:55
In the case of the MNB against the stock,i would argue that there is a night and day difference,which is immediate and doesn't require lots of listening time! I was dubious about all the claims at first but having taken the plunge i can see it was wholly justified! :)
Whether the platters offer the same level of upgrade i don't know,so will be interesting hearing people's thoughts on that!
If you were auditioning 2 pairs of speakers would you swap back and forth between them - say at least half a dozen times? Did you do that with the 2 bearings? (I MUST emphasise this is in NO way intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the MN bearing, or what anyone is hearing. Just supporting Macca's point that we operate some variable criteria in the way we evaluate equipment and the equipment we evaluate)
Recalling Pink Triangle introduced the world to the impedance match concept in the guise of the acrylic platter (obvious).
Martin Colloms then went forth, measured and produced results that showed a nicely damped response to a pulse.
What was not obvious was the actual effect that this transformation achieved. But it did sound "good".
If we look at FXR, measurements show a similar, order of magnitude improvement in the measurements.
Again, we extrapolate to a highly beneficial sonic experience.
But again, can we put our finger on just what we are going to experience? Not in the least. We only know we ought to be in for a treat.
Now, what about dynamic wow? The hypothesis seemed reasonable.
(Briefly: with 2g the minimum force required to keep the stylus in the groove at all times, track a 3kHz reference tone, apply a 2g load (a dustbug set to 2g!) and measure any drift)
Look! The results indeed showed problems and on that basis, deleterious conclusions were drawn on the outcome. (In the hysteria surrounding the LP12, the damage to Pink’s credibility cannot be overstated).
Only this time, there was no justification whatsoever. Although the full analysis is too long to provide here, try this gem:
In the publication, all turntables slowed (as they ought); all that is except DDs, which measured zero! Nil. Nix. Nada. I.e. Perfect. (Go dig out your original HiFi Choices)
What happened? Given the settling time, the servos had kicked in and pulled the platters up to speed. Moral: Measure at your peril!
Back to the thread: Having agreed that the original platter is indeed a weak link, we want to develop an improved one. But designers have their individual approaches.
One can indeed attempt to measure reflected energy but is that all there is to it? What about (as mentioned) the effect the servo has on the individual inertias?
Then we have the support quotient (for want of a label) to consider.
Here’s the problem: Regrettably, the ear, engineering solutions and measurements all travel along disparate paths, crossing fleetingly here and there.
Just look to cars and their setups when it comes to the driving experience. I like this car but you prefer that (and so just where does that leave the measurements?)
Similarly in our individual listening environments and systems, some will enhance and some will detract.
When developing a product, for what it’s worth, I bring to bear my 30 years experience into the design phase (creativity), develop interesting measurement methods - which I don’t always disclose (rigour) - and listen. Much tinkering and if I’m happy, the cake is baked. (The blend).
Ultimately you are left with cutting a slice, trying it when I hope you like it.
That’s subjectivism.
Excellent post, Arthur. On the subject of measurements, in relation to what we can actually hear, I concur entirely.
Marco.
At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 14:01
At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.
I agree. And the problem is, as I noted before, that today - and in particular in the "tweaking" market - it is so hard to audition. The ears are not the final arbiter. People take a punt or not based on what one or more people on a forum say.
Of course, cars aren't that easy. How many sets of tyres do you give a 200 mile test drive in assorted road conditions before choosing which ones to have fitted? Another frustration of mine. And another area where measurements help. :)
I think Martin Colloms tests on record damping, whilst interesting, were inherently flawed because the test rig did not sufficiently simulate a stylus tracking a groove. Effectively a weight was dropped on to the surface of the record from a fixed height and the impulse measured.
+1.
Except that in this instance, one really doesn't have to 'try hard' at all, or become embroiled in any convoluted comparisons, to hear the difference an MN bearing produces over the stock Technics bearing.
Think of it in terms of introducing any new component change (new source or amplifier, for example), which when introduced into one's system, immediately and irrefutably effects a no-brainer sonic improvement. Rest assured that this is similarly veritable 'night and day' territory :)
Marco.
At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.
Yes, but that's far from always being the case, Neal. There are numerous pieces of audio equipment tested (rather thoroughly) all the time in the mags. If specs are your 'thang', then one only has to consult the technical performance section, next to the subjective review, in the likes of HFN or Stereophile.
If you're talking about aftermarket upgrades from small, specialist manufacturers, such as Mike New and Funk, then that's a different kettle of fish. However, at the end of the day all that's really required to judge their efficacy is a good pair of ears, the confidence and gumption to think for oneself, without relying on the promptings of others, and a suitably revealing system :)
Marco.
kininigin
03-11-2013, 14:12
If you were auditioning 2 pairs of speakers would you swap back and forth between them - say at least half a dozen times? Did you do that with the 2 bearings? (I MUST emphasise this is in NO way intended to imply that there is anything wrong with the MN bearing, or what anyone is hearing. Just supporting Macca's point that we operate some variable criteria in the way we evaluate equipment and the equipment we evaluate)
Auditioning 2 pairs of speakers is completly different as far as i can see!! So if i did have two pairs to listen to,then yes i would,for as long as possible! Unless of course one was so obviously inferior,that auditionoing side by side would be a joke!! As is the case with the stock and MNB ;)
So no,i didn't swap between the two,i didn't need to! One is clearly inferiour to the other and i've got better things to do than swap things around when i already know which one i prefer!!
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 14:15
If you're talking about aftermarket upgrades from small, specialist manufacturers, such as Mike New and Funk, then that's a different kettle of fish. However, at the end of the day all that's really required to judge their efficacy is a good pair of ears, the confidence and gumption to think for oneself, without relying on the promptings of others, and a suitably revealing system :)
Marco.
And the chance to borrow both ;) (or a shop that stocks them!)
Or when the manufacturer and/or dealer inhabits your favourite Internet forum and is more than willing to send you a sample of such to audition at home, in your own system (for an extended period of time), prior to purchase ;)
That is how the likes of Martin and me make the vast majority of our buying decisions! :)
Marco.
You'll like this:
Some 20 years ago I was experimenting with an arm, which I still have in my arm(oury) (groan, sorry) - was it really that long ago?
Anyway, I haven't released it because it is perfect. And I mean all but perfect. Well, at least it measures perfectly: Over the majority of its range, it has no detectable blemishes. Quite amazing.
It's a shame it sounds so odd! And I mean ODD. Totally non-viable commercially speaking.
Like I said: Measure at your peril.
Arthur
Yes, but that's far from always being the case, Neal. There are numerous pieces of audio equipment tested (rather thoroughly) all the time in the mags. If specs are your 'thang', then one only has to consult the technical performance section, next to the subjective review, in the likes of HFN or Stereophile.
If you're talking about aftermarket upgrades from small, specialist manufacturers, such as Mike New and Funk, then that's a different kettle of fish. However, at the end of the day all that's really required to judge their efficacy is a good pair of ears, the confidence and gumption to think for oneself, without relying on the promptings of others, and a suitably revealing system :)
Marco.
Still....it would be nice to have alternative criteria instead of the 'trust me I'm a doctor, you don't need to know' mentality. The problem with ears is the emotional carbon based life form they are attached to!
Indeed, yet I'm sure it's ultimately what's been used to make the final 'judgement calls' in the assembling of your own system! ;)
Marco.
...The problem with ears is the emotional carbon based life form they are attached to!
Hi Neal,
Well I do have a 30 yr old sillyscope you can plug (your cart, arm, tt, phono, pre, amp, speakers, mic, amp, cables, mains cleaner-uppers, downers etc) into if you'd prefer, for, as we all know, like photos, measurements don't lie.:lol:
At the least, they'll stay consistent.
Arthur
ps: I wish I had the answer. I don't
pps: Marco, two short posts, can't be feeling well.
Indeed, yet I'm sure it's ultimately what's been used to make the final 'judgement calls' in the assembling of your own system! ;)
Marco.
Actually, no, not all of it. ;)
So, in the final analysis, you've trusted a piece of measurement apparatus over your ears? Is that what you're saying - or do you mean that the results, produced by the test apparatus, merely confirmed what your ears were already telling you?
I can go with the latter, no problem, (and indeed have done so in the past), but I would never make a final judgement call on anything in audio, based on measurements alone, if my ears were quite clearly telling me a different story (one which indicated the better sound - and I was convinced that I was right), even if that 'better sound' couldn't be 'objectively proven' :nono:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 14:54
You'll like this:
Some 20 years ago I was experimenting with an arm, which I still have in my arm(oury) (groan, sorry) - was it really that long ago?
Anyway, I haven't released it because it is perfect. And I mean all but perfect. Well, at least it measures perfectly: Over the majority of its range, it has no detectable blemishes. Quite amazing.
It's a shame it sounds so odd! And I mean ODD. Totally non-viable commercially speaking.
Like I said: Measure at your peril.
Arthur
Hey
That was my arm you bastard! (Or rather the idea we discussed in the summer, and were talking about 25 years ago) :lol:
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 14:57
Or when the manufacturer and/or dealer inhabits your favourite Internet forum and is more than willing to send you a sample of such to audition at home, in your own system (for an extended period of time), prior to purchase ;)
That is how the likes of Martin and me make the vast majority of our buying decisions! :)
Marco.
Like I said Marco. You're very lucky. I'm lucky too (albeit in a "don't get out much" sort of way). I get to borrow stuff and try it at home too. THE PROBLEM I WAS HIGHLIGHTING is NOT EVERYBODY CAN. They can rely on knowing you will advise what they might like. But how much nicer if they could listen themselves. Like good retailers used to let you. I don't blame you for being smug, but not everyone can start their own forum to get manufacturers to lend them kit to play with.:(
Hey
That was my arm you bastard! (Or rather the idea we discussed in the summer, and were talking about 25 years ago) :lol:
Well, if you haven't collected it in 25 years, I think I have fair claim to it now!:D
(Assuming we are talking about the same arm...not sure we are:scratch:PM?)
I would never make a final judgement call on anything in audio, based on measurements alone, if my ears were quite clearly telling me a different story (one which indicated the better sound - :
Marco.
Very few people would, I imagine. Specs and measurements for me are a way of narrowing down what is worth trying. For example if I was looking at new 'speakers I would discount anything that did not have an extended bass response. I can do that from the spec and the measurement alone. Other's opinions and the price are two other factors involved in that process. Once I have it set up in my system it is the listening that decides the final outcome. I imagine a lot of people choose kit that way.
Like I said Marco. You're very lucky. I'm lucky too (albeit in a "don't get out much" sort of way). I get to borrow stuff and try it at home too. THE PROBLEM I WAS HIGHLIGHTING is NOT EVERYBODY CAN. They can rely on knowing you will advise what they might like. But how much nicer if they could listen themselves. Like good retailers used to let you. I don't blame you for being smug, but not everyone can start their own forum to get manufacturers to lend them kit to play with.:(
Indeed, Richard. However, that's not the point. The service I'm referring to is (more often than not on AoS) available to any member who can convince the manufacturer and/or dealer concerned that he or she is a serious buyer for their product(s), or perhaps influentical in some way, and therefore 'worth the effort', as it were! :)
The fact is, Martin doesn't have his own forum, yet he has no problem getting stuff sent to him for audition, nor do others of his ilk... Ask yourself why that is? ;)
Marco.
Is this discussion not now becoming somewhat circulatory in nature?
Very few people would, I imagine.
Indeed, although that apears to be what Neal is saying, unless I've read him wrongly...
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
03-11-2013, 15:44
Yikes this thread is going on!!!:eek:
Do any of you actually listen to music?
I think this is the last I will contribute to this matter as there is little progress apparent.
But Arthur, you do seem to want things both ways. When I write that I mean that you cite Martin Colloms measurements as proof that there is a problem with platter damping but, at the same time, you promote the idea that measurements are of little value. I'm afraid that stance seems rather simplistic and not a little convenient.
I wouldn't expect a customer to choose on the basis of measurement but I would expect a designer to use measurement, together with subjective evaluation.
I wouldn't expect a customer to choose on the basis of measurement but I would expect a designer to use measurement, together with subjective evaluation.
I'm certain that's exactly what Arthur does, Mark. What he's saying, however, is that (like me), measurement is never the final arbiter: his ears and 30-years experience as an audio equipment designer are (although in my case, said experience refers merely to my humble status as an audio enthusiast)...
Marco.
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 16:06
I think this is the last I will contribute to this matter as there is little progress apparent.
But Arthur, you do seem to want things both ways. When I write that I mean that you cite Martin Colloms measurements as proof that there is a problem with platter damping but, at the same time, you promote the idea that measurements are of little value. I'm afraid that stance seems rather simplistic and not a little convenient.
I wouldn't expect a customer to choose on the basis of measurement but I would expect a designer to use measurement, together with subjective evaluation.
I agree Mark. Although I think Arthurs post was perhaps more muddled than rejecting of measurement. He pointed out that the right measurement CAN not only be helpful, but pretty much predict what the ears will tell (FXR)
The wrong measurement is useless and misleading (slowing under load)
Missing a measurement that is relevant can lead to an unfortunate partial insight (servo load effect won't be measured by the platter ringing measurements proposed)
And in the final analysis we listen to the damn stuff not measure it and need to use that tool too. Maybe he was trying to avoid my penchant for controversy and tread a diplomatic line. He has product to sell! (I don't!) :eyebrows:
But he has made his fair share of use of measurements in his time - it happens the new platter idea arose out of auditioning not measuring this time. And it is probably more appropriate for someone like Paul to measure independantly than for a manufacturer who has already developed a product based on ideas about physics, awareness of materials and construction techniques, and auditioning confirmation to do so.
Measurements would be interesting. But no substitute for audition. For those lucky enough to be able to audition. :cool:
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 16:07
Yikes this thread is going on!!!:eek:
Do any of you actually listen to music?
Yup - fat warblers! :lol:
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 16:10
Well, if you haven't collected it in 25 years, I think I have fair claim to it now!:D
(Assuming we are talking about the same arm...not sure we are:scratch:PM?)
Yeah we were. If you think back. Does "lots of db down" ring a bell? :)
Oldpinkman
03-11-2013, 16:13
Indeed, Richard. However, that's not the point. The service I'm referring to is (more often than not on AoS) available to any member who can convince the manufacturer and/or dealer concerned that he or she is a serious buyer for their product(s), or perhaps influentical in some way, and therefore 'worth the effort', as it were! :)
The fact is, Martin doesn't have his own forum, yet he has no problem getting stuff sent to him for audition, nor do others of his ilk... Ask yourself why that is? ;)
Marco.
He's an influential moderator on the forum, described to me by Arthur as "Marco's No2"? :scratch:
Recalling Pink Triangle introduced the world to the impedance match concept in the guise of the acrylic platter (obvious).
Martin Colloms then went forth, measured and produced results that showed a nicely damped response to a pulse.
What was not obvious was the actual effect that this transformation achieved. But it did sound "good".
Ultimately you are left with cutting a slice, trying it when I hope you like it.
That’s subjectivism.
I should have referred to the Richard Black review on the PT Anny (I think it was) where direct comparisons with the master were made, the PT sounding all but identical and possibly even slightly better than the copy-master used as a reference. I've long lost the original group? test review...
So, in the final analysis, you've trusted a piece of measurement apparatus over your ears? Is that what you're saying - or do you mean that the results, produced by the test apparatus, merely confirmed what your ears were already telling you?
No, I've made circuit changes for improved performance shown by measurement and then confirmed with listening.
Thanks for the clarification. That's a different ball-game... Nice one! :)
Marco.
He's an influential moderator on the forum, described to me by Arthur as "Marco's No2"? :scratch:
Lol - that he may be, but he's not my 'No2': Nick (Beechwoods) is, as he's co-administrator :)
The point I'm making is that ANYONE on AoS, who can convince a dealer/manufacturer that he or she is a serious buyer for any specific product(s), will stand a very good chance of auditioning it (or them) prior to buying, presuming that there is sample stock available of the item(s) concerned.
The fact that Martin sometimes benefits from that privilege is more a testament to the fact that he's known as a serious buyer (and someone with a reasonable disposable income), than his status here as a moderator.
Marco.
Yikes this thread is going on!!!:eek:
Do any of you actually listen to music?
Good point Gordon, one can only assume that these keyboard warriors do not have musically satisfying music systems otherwise they would be listening instead of typing, surely?
Rarely can anyone do both (men are crap at multi-tasking) :lol:
Myself I just got back from picking my daughter up from a dancing class and now I am going back into my workshop to make some cables up while said daughter cooks the tea. :)
Of course my new toy will be playing while I work.
He's an influential moderator on the forum, described to me by Arthur as "Marco's No2"? :scratch:
What a horrible mental picture that summons up.
:lolsign:
And before the watershed, too!!
Marco.
P.S Incidentally, no laxatives were required.
Arkless Electronics
03-11-2013, 17:28
I'll get round to getting my Techie up and running one of these days... SL150MKII very nice ;)
I'll get round to getting my Techie up and running one of these days... SL150MKII very nice ;)
One of the prettiest T/T ever made- what colour Jez?
Arkless Electronics
03-11-2013, 18:57
One of the prettiest T/T ever made- what colour Jez?
There was more than one then? Mines Rosewood and erm... alloy
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