View Full Version : Alternative platters ?
At least with cars, measurements are offered even if you don't base your buying criteria on them or place any importance on them...many after market car performance parts have measurements to back up the claims as well but HiFi? No, you must believe and trust your ears, no alternative criteria is offered.
What is the car measurement for engine responsiveness? Or for steering feel? For comfort of the driving position? There are lots of qualitative assessments where a measurement to produce a number is just not possible.
sq225917
03-11-2013, 19:42
The reason i mentioned the speed thing with a heavier platter was that i was around at a noted forum members last week. He has a lovely set-up, much modded 1210, nice arm and cart, external power supply internal mods and an aftermarket platter of the metal variety. His deck sounded great, 33 1/3 sounded awesome, with bass timbre to die for (#jealous) but he couldn't spin a record up a 45 rpm for love nor money, not even close it was 44rpm or even slower (He's removed the slider). |So I was wondering if the designers of these things consider the 'whole' or just the part they work on. Because increasing the slider just increases the speed, it doesn't alter the compensation speed of the feedback loop as well.
He's an influential moderator on the forum, described to me by Arthur as "Marco's No2"? :scratch:
No way! All moderators are equal, belonging to the same workers' collective and getting paid the same . . . err, hang on :doh:
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 21:02
Yes, also my thoughts. The compensation circuit of the 1200/1210 does not implement fuzzy logic and does not factor in the rotating inertia of the platter; it assumes zero inertia and instant response, hence the very light standard platter with minimal peripheral mass.
________________
Just out of interest was fuzzy logic technology around when the 1210 was designed so that platter inertia could be corrected. Sorry if I appear ignorant.
The fact that Martin sometimes benefits from that privilege is more a testament to the fact that he's known as a serious buyer (and someone with a reasonable disposable income), than his status here as a moderator.
For sure - I was working with vendors long before I became a mod here.
His deck sounded great, 33 1/3 sounded awesome, with bass timbre to die for (#jealous) but he couldn't spin a record up a 45 rpm for love nor money
That was a problem I found with a heavy metal platter, the fact that spinning at 45rpm really pushed the circuit's compensation to the limit. I could hear the 'warble' even after I removed the Sound Hi-Fi motor dynamics mod. For my ears, platters that weigh about the same as the Technics original are best suited to the circuit (strictly, have the same rotational momentum).
The reason i mentioned the speed thing with a heavier platter was that i was around at a noted forum members last week. He has a lovely set-up, much modded 1210, nice arm and cart, external power supply internal mods and an aftermarket platter of the metal variety. His deck sounded great, 33 1/3 sounded awesome, with bass timbre to die for (#jealous)...
Most interesting, Simon. Maybe you can now see (hear) what all the fuss is about! ;)
So who was this "noted forum member" - surely he's not that shy (and would actually be quite proud of your assessment of his turntable)!!
...but he couldn't spin a record up a 45 rpm for love nor money, not even close it was 44rpm or even slower (He's removed the slider). |So I was wondering if the designers of these things consider the 'whole' or just the part they work on. Because increasing the slider just increases the speed, it doesn't alter the compensation speed of the feedback loop as well.
A most astute and valid observation. It's one of the reasons why I abandoned the high-mass platter approach and went for the much lower-mass Funk (MK I) platter, as what you're describing became sonically obvious to me when making the comparison.
Marco.
That was a problem I found with a heavy metal platter, the fact that spinning at 45rpm really pushed the circuit's compensation to the limit. I could hear the 'warble' even after I removed the Sound Hi-Fi motor dynamics mod. For my ears, platters that weight about the same as the Technics original are best suited to the circuit (strictly, have the same rotational momentum).
Ditto! :)
So where does the (heavier) MKII Funk platter sit within that theory? ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 21:33
Thats my deck that needs viagra to get it upto 45rpm! To be fair I dont actually play 45's or 12"'s, and I must admit that whilst the pitch stabiliser has been removed it can easily be replaced. I did do a little tinkering with the 35/45 RPM selector when I got rid of the strobe light and several LED's that I thought I didnt need. This was when I went through a process of getting rid of everything off the PCB and any any additional "garments" that I thought were surplus to requirement. The 1210's party trick is copious bass which is perfect for my system and may give credence to the theory of extra mass giving extra bass, this is useful for the music genre's that I prefer. I dont think I can be arsed buying another platter, I like what I've got. I'm finding I'm spending more time with my valve system at the moment.
Just out of interest was fuzzy logic technology around when the 1210 was designed so that platter inertia could be corrected. Sorry if I appear ignorant.
Technically it was, but it wasn't being used in contexts such as this as, essentially, it needed a programmed processor to be integrated, ie. a separate computing element..
RobbieGong
03-11-2013, 21:45
Ditto! :)
So where does the (heavier) MKII Funk platter sit within that theory? ;)
Marco.
Good question. I guess there's heavy and then there's heavy in terms of good mass and bad mass - Mikes original metal platters are very heavy / weigh a good amount compared to the stock techie platter. How much does the original funk weigh Marco ? ie: is it close to the techie original ? Mikes ETP is definately a fair bit lighter than his metal ones but heavier than the stock techie platter.
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 21:48
Technically it was, but it wasn't being used in contexts such as this as, essentially, it needed a programmed processor to be integrated, ie. a separate computing element..
Couldn't this be done now as a regulator mod onto the PCB? In fact, can such a thing be purchased?
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 21:51
Put it this way you would not want to drop my platter on your toes. You'd be coming to see me on a profession basis to perform a digital athrodesis for fractured phalanges :rofl:
Thats my deck that needs viagra to get it upto 45rpm! To be fair I dont actually play 45's or 12"'s, and I must admit that whilst the pitch stabiliser has been removed it can easily be replaced. I did do a little tinkering with the 35/45 RPM selector when I got rid of the strobe light and several LED's that I thought I didnt need. This was when I went through a process of getting rid of everything off the PCB and any any additional "garments" that I thought were surplus to requirement. The 1210's party trick is copious bass which is perfect for my system and may give credence to the theory of extra mass giving extra bass, this is useful for the music genre's that I prefer. I dont think I can be arsed buying another platter, I like what I've got. I'm finding I'm spending more time with my valve system at the moment.
Lol - I had a feeling it was yours, Andy... The removal of the slider was a bit of a giveaway! So when are you upgrading to the ETP or a Funk platter? ;) Oh, and most importantly, why wasn't this bake-off reported on the forum? It's something we'd all loved to have read about....
Anyway, well done for demonstrating just how good a modded Technics can sound to a well-known, hard-bitten sceptic/belt-drive fanboy (no offence, Simon)!! :D
Aside from the arm and cartridge, our T/Ts share a lot in common. One thing I've discovered, and which becomes obvious when anyone actually listens to a judiciously modded SL-1200/1210, and makes some proper comparisons, is just how much of a neutral platform it allows the partnering arm and cartridge.
Quite simply, with 99% of the common failings of a turntable removed, one gets to hear not only what the partnering arm and cartridge are actually capable of, but pretty much exactly what's on your records! In that sense, Martin's T/T or mine, built largely from the same foundations as yours, will simply offer a different flavour on the same theme.
I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held recently at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts on demo - then watch the snobby exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!! :lol:
Marco.
The fact that a 1200/1210 fails to reach speed at 45rpm concerns me because it inherently operates in a different manner to most (pretty much all) other turntables. The 1200/1210 uses a load sensing feedback loop that increases torque as it senses load and continuously references speed against a synthesised ideal. If it cannot achieve 45rpm it strongly suggests that is unable to generate sufficient torque. It is often stated that the Technics has huge torque but this isn't strictly true, What it actually has is the ability to increase torque as it senses increased load - most of the time torque is quite low. In addition, the speed correction circuit cannot be switched out and does not default if the operating parameters exceed it's expectations. If the deck physically cannot achieve 45rpm it is right on the edge of being able to make the corrections it wishes to (beyond its abilities at 45rpm and it is highly unlikely that the impact would not be felt at 33.3rpm).
Wakefield Turntables
03-11-2013, 22:05
Lol - I had a feeling it was yours, Andy... The removal of the slider was a bit of a giveaway! So when are you upgrading to the ETP or a Funk platter? ;) Oh, and most importantly, why wasn't this bake-off reported on the forum? It's something we'd all love to have read about....
Anyway, well done for demonstrating just how good a modded Technics can sound to a well-known, hard-bitten sceptic/belt-drive fanboy!! :D
Aside from the arm and cartridge, our T/Ts share a lot in common. One thing I've discovered, and which becomes obvious when anyone actually listens to a judiciously modded SL-1200/1210, and makes some proper comparisons, is just how much of a neutral platform it allows the partnering arm and cartridge.
Quite simply, with 99% of the common failings of a turntable removed, one gets to hear not only what the partnering arm and cartridge are truly capable of, but pretty much exactly what's on your records! In that sense, Martin's T/T or mine, built largely from the same foundations as yours, will simply offer a different flavour on the same theme.
I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts and watch the exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!! :lol:
Marco.
:rofl: I dont think I will be upgrading thats just the point. For the time being I'm happy. I'm glad Simon liked my deck and TBH there wasn't really a bake off. Simon fetched me a very impressive piece of kit over for a listen. I think people should listen a little more closely to what Simon and Mark have to say they have some great ideas. My own personal theory with regards the 1210's evolution is simplification of the PCB and removal of all the excessive crap that's on the PCB. If I had the knowledge I'd mod the PCB even further and remove the ability to spin at 45 rpm, a simple dedicated circuit which was specifically designed to spin as accurately as possible at 33rpm which could take into consideration increased platter mass (i.e. Mark's idea) via fuzzy logic. What I need is a simple PCB with these features which can be soldered directly to my PCB under my MN platter.
Couldn't this be done now as a regulator mod onto the PCB? In fact, can such a thing be purchased?
No, absolutely not. Adding such a thing would require an actual computer to be attached full time (and a total redesign of the circuit). A regulator is an entirely different thing. You can't 'bolt on' fundamental design decisions in the way you suggest.
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Fuzzy logic is, in principal, quite a simple idea (but complex to implement). What one has to bear in mind is that digital deals in absolutes, on or off, open or closed, act or do nothing. Now these decisions can be broken up in to may thousands of steps and decided on very quickly, but no overriding application is included. Fuzzy logic enables an additional algorithm to be applied; so instead of if A+ is detected apply B- until A+ is no longer detected, you can have, if A+ is detected apply half the opposite force for a fixed time followed by a quarter force etc. The Technics circuit is a relatively simple circuit in terms of control technology in that it senses an element of drift and compensates for it. It does not include a model of the actual lossy forces that the physical system has, it exists entirely in the electronic world. When it applies correction it assumes that this is made instantly, if it is not it continues to act against that and continues to do so even it is unable to.
I would truly love to take either your T/T (when playing 33rpm records, lol) and/or Martin's and mine along to an event such as was held recently at Windsor, and put them in direct competition with the ridiculously priced 'badge-fi' T/Ts on demo - then watch the snobby exhibitors of the latter cry into their soup!! :lol:
Marco.
You can book me a place as well ... It would be worth the trip. One question though: have you kept a count of how much it cost to get your TT up to its current level?
The fact that a 1200/1210 fails to reach speed at 45rpm concerns me because it inherently operates in a different manner to most (pretty much all) other turntables. The 1200/1210 uses a load sensing feedback loop that increases torque as it senses load and continuously references speed against a synthesised ideal. If it cannot achieve 45rpm it strongly suggests that is unable to generate sufficient torque. It is often stated that the Technics has huge torque but this isn't strictly true, What it actually has is the ability to increase torque as it senses increased load - most of the time torque is quite low. In addition, the speed correction circuit cannot be switched out and does not default if the operating parameters exceed it's expectations. If the deck physically cannot achieve 45rpm it is right on the edge of being able to make the corrections it wishes to (beyond its abilities at 45rpm and it is highly unlikely that the impact would not be felt at 33.3rpm).
Sure, but all of the above assumes the use of a high-mass platter, not entirely compatible with the T/T's control circuitry.
I can assure you that my T/T, with the much lighter Funk platter fitted, has no trouble whatsoever in achieving 45rpm, as indeed measurements have shown (not mine incidentally). The same also applies, in that respect, when the stock platter is in situ.
How else would the Technics have become such an icon in clubs and discos worldwide, where 90% of the time it would've been spinning 7 and 12" singles, if it couldn't do it accurately? ;)
Furthermore, measurements aside, I play 12" singles often (and indeed own many hundreds of them), so if there was a problem reproducing them accurately at 45rpm, I can assure you that I'd have noticed!
Marco.
You can book me a place as well ... It would be worth the trip. One question though: have you kept a count of how much it cost to get your TT up to its current level?
Yes, a damn sight less than the cost of, say, a Continuum Caliburn, or an Air-Force One (which Martin listened to at Windsor)!! ;)
Marco.
I dont think I will be upgrading thats just the point. For the time being I'm happy.
It's not worth it if you don't use the 45rpm facility and are happy with your T/T.
I'm glad Simon liked my deck and TBH there wasn't really a bake off. Simon fetched me a very impressive piece of kit over for a listen.
Cool... Which was?
I think people should listen a little more closely to what Simon and Mark have to say they have some great ideas.
I totally agree. I've always rated (and largely agreed with) what they both have to say about hi-fi, as long as Simon doesn't wear his belligerent 'objectivist's hat' too often (as evidenced on pfm and elsewhere)!! ;)
My own personal theory with regards the 1210's evolution is simplification of the PCB and removal of all the excessive crap that's on the PCB. If I had the knowledge I'd mod the PCB even further and remove the ability to spin at 45 rpm, a simple dedicated circuit which was specifically designed to spin as accurately as possible at 33rpm which could take into consideration increased platter mass (i.e. Mark's idea) via fuzzy logic. What I need is a simple PCB with these features which can be soldered directly to my PCB under my MN platter.
Sounds like an interesting plan. I hope you can achieve it! :cool:
Marco.
Sure, but all of the above assumes the use of a high-mass platter, not entirely compatible with the T/T's control circuitry.
That is specifically what I was referring to - I did make it clear, I thought.
In theory, at least with respect to the compensation circuit, the lower the platter mass and the lower the rotational inertia, the better. The fly-wheel effect, as seen in many other turntables, specifically does not apply in this instance because the platter speed is actively monitored and compensated for - adding inertia simply makes this more difficult.
When it applies correction it assumes that this is made instantly, if it is not it continues to act against that and continues to do so even it is unable to.
Thus the 'warble' at 45rpm with a heavy platter as it continually tries to compensate, the momentum of the platter takes longer to respond than it expects, and it compensates again ad infinitum.
What I need is a simple PCB with these features which can be soldered directly to my PCB under my MN platter.
Such a thing does not exist I'm afraid. You would need a custom programmed chip and custom control board (from scratch).
That is specifically what I was referring to - I did make it clear, I thought.
In theory, at least with respect to the compensation circuit, the lower the platter mass and the lower the rotational inertia, the better. The fly-wheel effect, as seen in many other turntables, specifically does not apply in this instance because the platter speed is actively monitored and compensated for - adding inertia simply makes this more difficult.
Yup, spot on. Your position on the matter was clear to me, Mark. However, I simply wanted to make it equally clear (beyond question), for all those reading, that the problem you describe is not inherent in the stock Technics T/T, nor with the lower-mass aftermarket platter designs from Funk (and probably also Mike's ETP platter).
What's rather satisfying in all of this, from a personal point of view, is that my decision to move from using a high-mass platter, to a lower-mass one, has been technically vindicated (as well as sonically, some time ago, using my own judgement criteria). Martin also occupies the same happy position :)
Marco.
Thus the 'warble' at 45rpm with a heavy platter as it continually tries to compensate, the momentum of the platter takes longer to respond than it expects, and it compensates again ad infinitum.
Yes, precisely. However, an aspect of this, though at a lower level, is likely to still exist at 33.3 rpm.
sq225917
03-11-2013, 22:49
Rexton's deck just couldn't reach 45, not even close. I imagine there's a voltage limit in the circuit some where that can be overidden to fix this, though the compensation loop speed will still be an issue. Heavy platters are probably not the 'ideal' for these decks as Marco has already noted. Which probably explains why even the Sp10 MK3 came with a light platter despite its monster motor.
WOStantonCS100
03-11-2013, 22:52
I now have the Funk Mk. II hub and platter and will be setting it up for listening tonight when I get home. When I relate my findings, everything I say will be 'IMO' ;)
Don't take it so hard, old man. :) I did state that my comments were meant for those who tend to read things quickly and are given to follow another person's preferences blindly; not a personal slight on you. The only time they should blindly follow someone is when *** I *** say something is awesome. Then, it's just cold hard fact. :D ;)
Yeah, the monster motor, is there to better achieve the theoretical instant variation in speed, to better overcome inertia of the platter, not to overcome extra stresses placed on the system.
No offence was taken, Biff. Just gently yanking (!) your chain :)
Yeah, the monster motor, is there to better achieve the theoretical instant variation in speed, to better overcome inertia of the platter, not to overcome extra stresses placed on the system.
...and in broadcast applications in radio stations, to make start-up times even faster for broadcasters, and thus near-instantaneous! Start-up speed there is critical.
The huge motor/lightweight platter concept is also applied with great success on EMTs. I guess that there was something in it after all (with idlers and D/Ds, that is)... ;)
Marco.
Any low mass platter will start up quickly because it has low inertia; that doesn't inherently make it better though, that depends on the drive system as a whole.
Indeed, and that is what I was alluding to in the last sentence of my previous post. This is essentially an idler and D/D thing. The opposite (high-mass platter route) can happily apply when strings or belts are in the equation, and an absence of complicated loop speed compensation circuitry.
In fact, some of the best belt/string-driven T/Ts I've heard have featured the use of truly MASSIVE platters. Oddly those, to my ears, have also sounded most like a good D/D or idler (in terms of majoring on rock-solid stability and bass authority)...... ;)
Marco.
Mike_New
03-11-2013, 23:17
Mike's website only needs updating and considering he is a one man band I am sure he can be forgiven for prioritizing production ;)
Folks,
As many of you already know but I will repeat it: I have not been able to contact the guy who put my website together for the last 12 months or more.
However out of the blue he emailed 2 days ago saying all my emails went into his 'junk folder', maybe he's trying to tell me something.
I do not have independant control for editing my website which must be corrected to the advantage of all.
I hope I can get it sorted soon.
Audio Al
03-11-2013, 23:55
Folks,
As many of you already know but I will repeat it: I have not been able to contact the guy who put my website together for the last 12 months or more.
However out of the blue he emailed 2 days ago saying all my emails went into his 'junk folder', maybe he's trying to tell me something.
I do not have independant control for editing my website which must be corrected to the advantage of all.
I hope I can get it sorted soon.
MIKE
Quick GET his phone number !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
chris@panteg
04-11-2013, 00:14
Rexton's deck just couldn't reach 45, not even close. I imagine there's a voltage limit in the circuit some where that can be overidden to fix this, though the compensation loop speed will still be an issue. Heavy platters are probably not the 'ideal' for these decks as Marco has already noted. Which probably explains why even the Sp10 MK3 came with a light platter despite its monster motor.
The platter on an SP10 MK 3 weighs 10 kg , the motor and control circuitry is a different ball game to the 1200 of course .
I tried to point out some time ago that a high mass platter doesn't work on a 1200 , the compensation circuitry is set in stone .
Mike_New
04-11-2013, 00:27
[QUOTE=sq225917;497361]Rexton's deck just couldn't reach 45, not even close. I imagine there's a voltage limit in the circuit some where that can be overidden to fix this, though the compensation loop speed will still be an issue. Heavy platters are probably not the 'ideal' for these decks as Marco has already noted. Which probably explains why even the Sp10 MK3 came with a light platter despite its monster motor.[/QUOT
I tried to point out some time ago that a high mass platter doesn't work on a 1200 , the compensation circuitry is set in stone .
Why is it set in stone?? the RC network around the op-amps.
can be changed.
If you remember some 6-8 monthe ago I put forward the notion that a switchable arangement could be provided for this purpose, in conjunction with the comments and help from a guy in Holland, if I recall. But no one seemed to be interested.
Something else that's just crossed my mind about Andrew's set-up, which Simon heard and loved... Andy, did you have the ST-80SE plummed in at the time? :)
Marco.
What do you think Simon took round Marco... ;).
Lol - the Paradise... Thing is, did he get a listen to Andy's SUT, in conjunction with his own phono stage, while he was there? Specifically what I'm getting at here is Andy's own phono stage used directly in MC mode, versus MM mode with his SUT, if such a thing is possible in his set up.
If so, it'll hopefully have given Simon an inkling as to why Andy chooses to use an SUT, and why, in some circumstances, it improves matters.
Marco.
I guess he heard it as Andy normaly has it configured.
[QUOTE=chris@panteg;497388]
Why is it set in stone?? the RC network around the op-amps.
can be changed.
If you remember some 6-8 monthe ago I put forward the notion that a switchable arangement could be provided for this purpose, in conjunction with the comments and help from a guy in Holland, if I recall. But no one seemed to be interested.
still the same it appears Mike :)
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2013, 10:27
Guys I'm at work I will update when I have some time.
I guess he heard it as Andy normaly has it configured.
Sure, but did he hear it sans SUT, directly through the MC input of his phono stage, before the Paradise entered the equation?
*That* is the question, amigo. If not, an opportunity was missed to demonstrate the superiority of an SUT, over an active MC stage, in the context of Andy's system.... Let's face it, he wouldn't have kept the ST-80SE if it didn't improve things ;)
The Paradise may have been overall better, but that would only have been because it outperformed his Sugden Masterclass PA4, when comparing one phono stage against the other.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
04-11-2013, 10:46
Lol - the Paradise... Thing is, did he get a listen to Andy's SUT, in conjunction with his own phono stage, while he was there? Specifically what I'm getting at here is Andy's own phono stage used directly in MC mode, versus MM mode with his SUT, if such a thing is possible in his set up.
If so, it'll hopefully have given Simon an inkling as to why Andy chooses to use an SUT, and why, in some circumstances, it improves matters.
Marco.
I'll leave aside the SUT versus active bit..... but the Paradise doesn't have MM input.
Well, no doubt Si will be along in a bit to clarify; but there doesn't seem much point in listening to the Sugden without the SUT if that is how Andy normaly uses it - as Jez says, the SUT couldn't be used with the Paradise even if you wanted to. The Paradise is inherantly a MC stage and cannot be configured for MM.
Yup, Mark, I fully understand that, but that's not what I'm getting at. Let's remove the Paradise temporarily from the equation... What I'm getting at is if Simon got to hear Andy's Sugden phono stage with and without his SUT?
If not, an opportunity was missed to demonstrate the superiority of an SUT, in the context of Andy's system (therefore backing up previous arguments here over the claimed efficacy of SUTs), as the fact is he wouldn't be using it if his T/T sounded better connected directly to the Sugden.
If that was demonstrated to Simon, and he heard the improvement the ST-80SE provided in that context, then it would've added to his experience of SUTs, and moreover, provided further subjective evidence showing that SUTs can improve matters in the right circumstances, thus demonstrating that it is a valid approach.
Ya gets me now? :)
We will obviously have to wait until either Andrew or Simon confirm if the above comparison was carried out or not.
Marco.
chris@panteg
04-11-2013, 12:01
[QUOTE=chris@panteg;497388]
Why is it set in stone?? the RC network around the op-amps.
can be changed.
If you remember some 6-8 monthe ago I put forward the notion that a switchable arangement could be provided for this purpose, in conjunction with the comments and help from a guy in Holland, if I recall. But no one seemed to be interested.
Mike , I have learned this from Richard Peachey , he spent over 20 years working on DD turntables , he claims he understands the science behind the SL1200 series ! And I believe him , I have a large number of emails containing technical information which is mostly beyond my understanding to be honest .
But he made it very clear to me , using a solid high mass platter is a mistake , he tried it himself over ten years ago , adding a big and beefy PSU will not overcome this as some believed , there is a little leeway but not much .
I'll try and dig through the emails again and perhaps pass on some though not all of the info as some of it I promised not to divulge .
Ah, I yeah, you mean did he get a demo of the Sugden with and without the SUT? Dunno, in short
Mike_New
04-11-2013, 12:15
Is Richard an electronics design engineer? I am no expert on the historical genesis of DD TTs but it would seem that perhaps he must have worked on the SL designs if it was 20 years ago, in which case talking to him would be instructive.
Yup, Mark, I fully understand that, but that's not what I'm getting at. Let's remove the Paradise temporarily from the equation... What I'm getting at is if Simon got to hear Andy's Sugden phono stage with and without his SUT?
If not, an opportunity was missed to demonstrate the superiority of an SUT, in the context of Andy's system (therefore backing up previous arguments here over the claimed efficacy of SUTs), as the fact is he wouldn't be using it if his T/T sounded better connected directly to the Sugden.
If that was demonstrated to Simon, and he heard the improvement the ST-80SE provided in that context, then it would've added to his experience of SUTs, and moreover, provided further subjective evidence showing that SUTs can improve matters in the right circumstances, thus demonstrating that it is a valid approach.
Ya gets me now? :)
We will obviously have to wait until either Andrew or Simon confirm if the above comparison was carried out or not.
Marco.
off topic, move please!:)
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2013, 14:23
off topic, move please!:)
Why is this off topic? This topic is about the development of platters and the possible variables which affect them. Considering your trying to sell these platters to people I would consider you let the discussion flow and learn from conclusions made from the people who may or may not purchase one.
Why is this off topic? This topic is about the development of platters and the possible variables which affect them. Considering your trying to sell these platters to people I would consider you let the discussion flow and learn from conclusions made from the people who may or may not purchase one.
:ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner:
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2013, 16:11
:ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner: :ner::ner::ner::ner::ner::ner:
Reply says it all , would be nice to take a part in a discussion and not have your products rammed down our throats.
Wakefield Turntables
04-11-2013, 19:41
Sure, but did he hear it sans SUT, directly through the MC input of his phono stage, before the Paradise entered the equation?
*That* is the question, amigo. If not, an opportunity was missed to demonstrate the superiority of an SUT, over an active MC stage, in the context of Andy's system.... Let's face it, he wouldn't have kept the ST-80SE if it didn't improve things ;)
The Paradise may have been overall better, but that would only have been because it outperformed his Sugden Masterclass PA4, when comparing one phono stage against the other.
Marco.
Simon got to hear several pieces of music Dream Theater, Deep Purple, some jazz, and some classical alongside some of his own stuff. This was with the SUT and the SUGDEN. The SUT was not used with the Paradise. The HiQ supercuts version of Holst's planet suite when played through the Paradise alone was amazing and comfortably outperformed than the sugden and the SUT. NO THATS SAYING SOMETHING!
I'll leave aside the SUT versus active bit..... but the Paradise doesn't have MM input.
Correct and that is why I'm attracted to this phonostage. The design of the phonostage follows one of my principles, mainly less is more, removing the whole MM section from the circuit must surely be beneficial.
Well, no doubt Si will be along in a bit to clarify; but there doesn't seem much point in listening to the Sugden without the SUT if that is how Andy normaly uses it - as Jez says, the SUT couldn't be used with the Paradise even if you wanted to. The Paradise is inherantly a MC stage and cannot be configured for MM.
I hope he does. Simon has better ears than myself and he may be able to give an accurate appraisal of what he heard. The SUT and Sugden may not be going too far:eyebrows: It could still be used in the valve system I own. I can't believe that none of the major mags have reviewed the Sugden phonostage. It really is an excellent piece of kit.
Ah, I yeah, you mean did he get a demo of the Sugden with and without the SUT? Dunno, in short
I dont think we used the sugden without the SUT.
I hope this clears things up a little.
Audio Al
04-11-2013, 23:32
Its arrived :eyebrows:
Arkless Electronics
05-11-2013, 00:08
Simon got to hear several pieces of music Dream Theater, Deep Purple, some jazz, and some classical alongside some of his own stuff. This was with the SUT and the SUGDEN. The SUT was not used with the Paradise. The HiQ supercuts version of Holst's planet suite when played through the Paradise alone was amazing and comfortably outperformed than the sugden and the SUT. NO THATS SAYING SOMETHING!
Correct and that is why I'm attracted to this phonostage. The design of the phonostage follows one of my principles, mainly less is more, removing the whole MM section from the circuit must surely be beneficial.
I hope he does. Simon has better ears than myself and he may be able to give an accurate appraisal of what he heard. The SUT and Sugden may not be going too far:eyebrows: It could still be used in the valve system I own. I can't believe that none of the major mags have reviewed the Sugden phonostage. It really is an excellent piece of kit.
I dont think we used the sugden without the SUT.
I hope this clears things up a little.
Like many phono stages it doesn't have a MM stage to remove... units which have a separate internal head amp for MC are in the minority. In the case of the Arkless 640p and many others there is no more in the signal path when switched to MC than there is on MM. Only the value of 1 resistor is changed in order to give higher gain for MC.
The Paradise is different again.... The only other phono stage I know of which works in a similar manner is the Pink Triangle "The Pip". It is much more involved to make it into a MM stage but it can be done.... making it switchable is not possible. It involves a major redesign! (I don't know if the pip is switchable...).
I'm hoping to have a MC only phono stage of my own which works on the same principle available before too long ;) It's a very interesting principle on which this technology is based.. zero feedback and virtually impossible to overload. I'm quite excited about the possibilities of this way of doing things.. just wish I didn't have to do mundane stuff to make a living and then it would be ready a lot sooner :doh: I can see possibilities (thinking out loud now) for line stages.... and more to the point, power amps, built with this technology. The later is not possible to do cheaply though!
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2013, 00:42
I have an LFD MC1 moving coil only phono stage - do you know whether it falls into this same design category?
Arkless Electronics
05-11-2013, 01:09
I have an LFD MC1 moving coil only phono stage - do you know whether it falls into this same design category?
That's prescient! It had just occurred to me that probably some of the LFD gear uses the same technology and I was considering editing the last post to mention this.... ;)
I see you use an AR SP8.... my own valve phono stage is just the phono stage from the sp8 (home made copy) but with a 4U rack-mount 19" case PSU which gives a separate regulated supply to every valve... a 25 way "D" type connector and 1/2" thick umbilical cord connects them together. I built it about 18 years ago and it hasn't been powered up for at least 12 years! A gradual powering up via a variac seems in order before I try it with the head amp I'm working on!
Mike_New
05-11-2013, 02:30
Hey Folks,
Dave B really is correct when he says that all this SUT and phono amp talk is off topic.
A SUT or amplifier or surely speakers can hardly effect the characteristics of a humbl platter.
WOStantonCS100
05-11-2013, 05:41
No disrespect meant; but, all the hoopla over the Techy not spinning correctly at 45 rpm is based primarily on a specimen that had been tinkered with???
The 1200 motor is essentially the same as used in the 150Mk2, 1300/1400/1500Mk2, M1a, M2 & M3 and all of the platters on these decks are heavier than the 1200's and balanced. It seems to me the motor is overspec'd for the job, if anything. In addition I use a 454g record weight on top of that. I have no problems running 45 rpm. Granted the MN platter is certainly heavier; however, I do believe I've read that Richard from Vantage himself has offered/done upgrades to the stock platter with more aluminum on the bottom side not to mention Inspire's use of a heavier platter on the Monarch. I also don't recall ever reading posts here when the MN platter first had it's go around that anyone's deck had a problem spinning at 45 rpm. So, what gives here guys? Was this problem ever documented by watching a strobe, flutter tests? I could be wrong; but, this does seem strange that said issue has appeared this late in the game. If I missed such posts back in the day, I unreservedly apologize.
Can those still using a heavy platter (MN or Vantage upgraded) on a 1200, or an owner of the Inspire Monarch weigh in here, please??
QUOTE=chris@panteg;497388]The platter on an SP10 MK 3 weighs 10 kg , the motor and control circuitry is a different ball game to the 1200 of course .
I tried to point out some time ago that a high mass platter doesn't work on a 1200 , the compensation circuitry is set in stone .[/QUOTE]
Martin T has commented that he heard hunting when using a “high mass platter”.
Similarly Marco has observed negative effects that he ascribes to “platter mass”.
Well for my part all I have to say is that where DDs are concerned, “High mass platters” don’t in fact do this or that.
Because mass, per se, is irrelevant. Platter mass is static and sits on the bearing. For a heavy platter the bearing might then scream: “I’m not bloody Hercules” but that’s all.
You may have noticed, but when we feed energy into our decks, the platters start to rotate and this changes everything; now we have inertia. It is this that matters because its value is non-linear. Inertial values increase by the square of the increasing distance from the centre of rotation.
We can have a very heavy (massive) platter with its mass close to the centre and it will have a "low" inertial value.
Or a low mass platter with material concentrated at the edge and the inertia can be higher than the case above.
Or they can be balanced to the give same inertial value, when despite our scales telling us they are totally different, as far as the electronics are concerned, they are one and the same!
From our point of view, because we are listening (measuring?) to the mechanical interactions of both constructs, these two designs are again deemed to be different.
So, what we are left with is the fact that in DDs the system has to be optimised to match the power available to the inertial load. If the value goes outside of the loop constants, (high or low) then instability can set in, and hunting can be detected.
In developing professional versions of our platter for as fast a startup as possible for a particular client, we reached a point where servo lock was lost and hunting occurred - quite impressive.
The best solution for recovery we found was mechanical and not electronic.
The Technics engineers optimised the 1200's R-C values for the (maximum) power available from the motor and matched it to the platter(‘s inertia).
Tinkering with the values will not yield improvements as drawing any more power from the coil winding will only shorten the motor’s life – I’d say blowing up fits into that condition.
For this reason, one can argue the design is indeed set in stone.
if you want more power, then an SP10 is a pretty good place to start...
In developing our platters, therefore, we have always stuck within the designs constraints, both with our original Type I and now also with Type II. They are two totally different animals, so you can have you cake and eat it. I say this only because of previous comments regarding the deleterious effects of "mass".
As a relevant adjunct to this post, I'll tell you why belt drives are attractive: As the motors operate at much higher speeds and produce many times more error pulses per platter revolution.
This then permits for much smaller and hence less intrusive correction to take place.
With DDs the correction has to be applied with great finesse lest it be heard. And with 1200 I think we already know the answer!
That apart, in truth, there is no real difference between the two philosophies. The only difference is that we have designs fixed and this prevents us from exploring. We are then left saying that a belt drive DOES this and a DD DOES that. To my mind, both work.
Arthur
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 06:45
Like many phono stages it doesn't have a MM stage to remove... units which have a separate internal head amp for MC are in the minority. In the case of the Arkless 640p and many others there is no more in the signal path when switched to MC than there is on MM. Only the value of 1 resistor is changed in order to give higher gain for MC.
The Paradise is different again.... The only other phono stage I know of which works in a similar manner is the Pink Triangle "The Pip". It is much more involved to make it into a MM stage but it can be done.... making it switchable is not possible. It involves a major redesign! (I don't know if the pip is switchable...).
I'm hoping to have a MC only phono stage of my own which works on the same principle available before too long ;) It's a very interesting principle on which this technology is based.. zero feedback and virtually impossible to overload. I'm quite excited about the possibilities of this way of doing things.. just wish I didn't have to do mundane stuff to make a living and then it would be ready a lot sooner :doh: I can see possibilities (thinking out loud now) for line stages.... and more to the point, power amps, built with this technology. The later is not possible to do cheaply though!
"This technology" I assume refers to transconductance gain stages. Pip is effectively modules, active line, riaa (mm) in this threads speak, and mc which is further gain. There are at least 4 variants I am aware of in that basic circuit (pip 2 variants also had power supply options). However because the regulation is applied at each stage independantly and integrated with the transconductance circuit, in addition to low distortion zero feedback the noise on the power rails effectively doesn't reflect in the signal path. Switching in pip 1 and 2 is achieved by custom built 16 pin dil headers which set the load and where necessary bridge in the additional gain. Whilst I have the schematics this stuff is in published magazine articles. Pip2 headers whilst identical in appearance to pip1 are configured differently - one of the reasons I asked paul stewart which pip he was comparing to his "superior" successors. Extending the principle (concept?) to power amps is the next idea, but as you note jez there is the bother of going beyond concept and successfully implementing it. That bit was way over my head :mental:
Hey Folks,
Dave B really is correct when he says that all this SUT and phono amp talk is off topic.
A SUT or amplifier or surely speakers can hardly effect the characteristics of a humbl platter.
Hi Mike,
It's acceptable thread drift (in the AoS tradition), where discussions will sometimes extrapolate into other areas, running concurrently with the original thread topic. As long as all comments remain constructive and no-one 'thread craps', by denigrating any of the products or turntable modifying methodologies mentioned here, then there is no problem :)
Marco.
You may have noticed, but when we feed energy into our decks, the platters start to rotate and this changes everything; now we have inertia. It is this that matters because its value is non-linear. Inertial values increase by the square of the increasing distance from the centre of rotation.
Agreed, I did mention momentum further up the thread. Using mass simplistically in place of momentum, you'd have to have a very unusual design of platter to be high mass but low momentum.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 08:35
Agreed, I did mention momentum further up the thread. Using mass simplistically in place of momentum, you'd have to have a very unusual design of platter to be high mass but low momentum.
What effect would plonking a heavy record weight of high mass have?
Indeed, Martin...
Arthur, I hear what you're saying, but surely mass acts as the catalyst for the knock-on effect on inertia? Therefore, the existence of too much mass is the root cause of the problem.
Therefore, in the case of aftermarket platters for the Technics, any new design should not have any more mass (be heavier) than the stock platter, as otherwise one encounters the problems being described here in relation to 'hunting', and consequently audible 'warbling' on playback.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2013, 08:55
I think Arthur's point is that mass defines the platter as a whole. The value of inertia is dependent on where how that mass is spread across the width of the platter.
So just talking about mass alone is meaningless unless you consider it in conjunction with it's position.
.....and he would be correct!
The Grand Wazoo
05-11-2013, 09:02
Think about a seesaw.
Put a fat kid and a skinny kid on it. The fat kid near the middle and the skinny one near the other end. This gives the skinny kid greater downward inertia.
Now move him in to the same relative distance as the fat kid. The fat kid now has greater downward inertia.
Now move him back a bit and they balance, so they have the same downward inertia (in this case, zero)
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:15
Indeed, Martin...
Arthur, I hear what you're saying, but surely mass acts as the catalyst for the knock-on effect on inertia? Therefore, the existence of too much mass is the root cause of the problem.
Therefore, in the case of aftermarket platters for the Technics, any new design should not have any more mass (be heavier) than the stock platter, as otherwise one encounters the problems being described here in relation to 'hunting', and consequently audible 'warbling' on playback.
Marco.
What happens when you plonk a heavy record weight (high mass) on a technics deck? (2nd time of asking) (ps you'll like the answer);)
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:16
Think about a seesaw.
Put a fat kid and a skinny kid on it. The fat kid near the middle and the skinny one near the other end. This gives the skinny kid greater downward inertia.
Now move him in to the same relative distance as the fat kid. The fat kid now has greater downward inertia.
Now move him back a bit and they balance, so they have the same downward inertia (in this case, zero)
Hey that's my variable effective arm mass analogy! You mean I forgot to copywright it? Bugger! :)
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:28
Agreed, I did mention momentum further up the thread. Using mass simplistically in place of momentum, you'd have to have a very unusual design of platter to be high mass but low momentum.
How about a platter like the LP12 platter with effectively a hollow middle and a big rim round the edge where the mass is concentrated? Compared with a flat even platter with a big record weight in the middle? I'm not the engineer here doing the sums, but I think the point is that the design constraints for the motor and its servos are based on inertia not mass, and there are upper and lower boundaries for that which you cannot measure with mass alone. The boundaries are a range not a number (hence the Funk acrylic is still in range at a lighter 1.2Kg). But the range is inertia not mass. And inertia is greater where mass is concentrated at the edge of the platter rather than the centre. He is saying (I don't do sums) that the inertia of the Funk 2 is inside the inertia range (just) for the original Technics motor specs. Another platter with the same mass, but that mass concentrated at the edge would not be. A heavier platter with the mass concentrated at the centre, might be.
I think that's the idea :scratch:
What effect would plonking a heavy record weight of high mass have?
Very little in real terms as the mass would be at the rotating centre and so add little to the overall inertia (though record weight manufacturers do sometimes make this spurious claim). Concentrating mass at the periphery optimises the inertia for a relative mass. For a given speed of rotation, mass (or more specifically weight) and inertia are inherently linked - raising the weight of the platter will increase the inertia unless the distribution of that weight is moved away from the periphery.
Putting aside inertia for a moment, one other aspect that strikes me as pertinent is the radiated magnetic field generated by the motor, both the ferrite magnet attached to the underside of the platter and the motor field as a whole. A metal platter will help reduce the area of radiation, but a polymer platter will have little effect (though making the platter thicker will help). I haven't studied the specifics of the Technics that closely but I have done quite a lot with magnetic bearings and certainly with these, both shielding and structure are relevant.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:35
Very little in real terms as the mass would be at the rotating centre and so add little to the overall inertia
Yup - the point I was making. The opposite is also true - if your mass is concentrated at the rim, the inertia is consequentially higher :)
How about a platter like the LP12 platter with effectively a hollow middle and a big rim round the edge where the mass is concentrated? Compared with a flat even platter with a big record weight in the middle? I'm not the engineer here doing the sums, but I think the point is that the design constraints for the motor and its servos are based on inertia not mass, and there are upper and lower boundaries for that which you cannot measure with mass alone. The boundaries are a range not a number (hence the Funk acrylic is still in range at a lighter 1.2Kg). But the range is inertia not mass. And inertia is greater where mass is concentrated at the edge of the platter rather than the centre. He is saying (I don't do sums) that the inertia of the Funk 2 is inside the inertia range (just) for the original Technics motor specs. Another platter with the same mass, but that mass concentrated at the edge would not be. A heavier platter with the mass concentrated at the centre, might be.
I think that's the idea :scratch:
The Linn platter, and others like it, are specifically intended to maximise inertia, but their drive systems are inherently unlike that used by the Technics.
How do you know what the 'inertia range' of the technics is – with respect, that is a meaningless term. Presumably you mean the maximum torque of the motor but that itself means less than it may at first appear as the torque is continuously being modulated by the control circuit.
Ideally, you don't want to generate as much inertia as you can get away with, you want to provide the best possible environment for the control circuit to operate under and that assumes that the platter is able to react instantly to the inputs it is given.
How about a platter like the LP12 platter with effectively a hollow middle and a big rim round the edge where the mass is concentrated? Compared with a flat even platter with a big record weight in the middle? I'm not the engineer here doing the sums, but I think the point is that the design constraints for the motor and its servos are based on inertia not mass, and there are upper and lower boundaries for that which you cannot measure with mass alone. The boundaries are a range not a number (hence the Funk acrylic is still in range at a lighter 1.2Kg). But the range is inertia not mass. And inertia is greater where mass is concentrated at the edge of the platter rather than the centre. He is saying (I don't do sums) that the inertia of the Funk 2 is inside the inertia range (just) for the original Technics motor specs. Another platter with the same mass, but that mass concentrated at the edge would not be. A heavier platter with the mass concentrated at the centre, might be.
I think that's the idea :scratch:
I think you would make a good ley preacher Richard as that's a great explanation , I think we should trust Arthur on this he has previous , imo one reason the original PT acrylic platter was so revolutionary and good apart from the use of acrylic was its shape, the man knows his physics:exactly:
Paul
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:42
The Linn platter, and others like it, are specifically intended to maximise inertia, but their drive systems are inherently unlike that used by the Technics.
How do you know what the 'inertia range' of the technics is – with respect, that is a meaningless term. Presumably you mean the maximum torque of the motor but that itself means less than it may at first appear as the torque is continuously being modulated by the control circuit
I don't know the range. I pointed out I wasn't doing the sums. I was referring to what Arthur had put in his post, and some comments he made to me, and what I percieved as a failure to understand them in the manner I had. The principle, as you pointed out, holds good. If you accept that inertia not mass is the issue in determining the response of the servos, then the distribution of that mass will be relevant to the systems ability to operate in range. I think Arthurs reference to "out of range" when developing products for the professional market, suggest he has measured or experienced this.
As you also note, and Arthur did - you don't get these problems with a high speed DC motor driving the platter via a belt
Yup - the point I was making. The opposite is also true - if your mass is concentrated at the rim, the inertia is consequentially higher :)
Yup, I also made that point - glad you agree though...
What effect would plonking a heavy record weight of high mass have?
Good question and very little effect - I've tried it. I added my heavy weight to the centre hub of Arthur's two-part platter to see if there was enough momentum there to make it spin properly. It doesn't.
So a heavy record weight will stress the bearing, as Arthur pointed out, but will not add appreciably to the momentum of the platter.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 09:47
I think you would make a good ley preacher Richard as that's a great explanation , I think we should trust Arthur on this he has previous , imo one reason the original PT acrylic platter was so revolutionary and good apart from the use of acrylic was its shape, the man knows his physics:exactly:
Paul
Thanks Paul. Apart from being friends with the guys at PT, and other coincidences along the way, I think one of my contributions was that I trained as an auditor. No technical, physics, or engineering skills. An auditor needs to be able to understand "just enough" about a clients systems or a transaction to satisfy himself, and assure others, that they give a "true and fair view". It's a mind-set. I remember a final exam question about corruption and influence on audtior independence, and the quote "Independence is an attitude of mind"
In developing methodologies and tests to prove that a statement (financial statements) give a "true and fair view", you develop a nose for bullshit! ;)
Gordon Steadman
05-11-2013, 09:47
A query for you scientist types. My brother in law is/was a design engineer. designed machines for Metal Box. He took one look at my TT and said the platter should be much heavier to take advantage of the flywheel effect. My TT is based on a Sansui DD motor and the platter is extremely light but well damped.
I would have thought that the control systems would find it easier to regulate the speed if the platter was light. If there is a lot of mass, wouldn't the variations have a longer period as the corrections would take longer to be applied? This would then sound like a slow wow and be a disaster on piano music and the like.
Certainly, mine is rock steady and piano music sounds solid and decays naturally with no hint of any 'warblin' (Richard:eyebrows:)
Indeed, Martin...
Arthur, I hear what you're saying, but surely mass acts as the catalyst for the knock-on effect on inertia? Therefore, the existence of too much mass is the root cause of the problem.
Therefore, in the case of aftermarket platters for the Technics, any new design should not have any more mass (be heavier) than the stock platter, as otherwise one encounters the problems being described here in relation to 'hunting', and consequently audible 'warbling' on playback.
Marco.
Seriously, no Marco.
As Richard put it, a heavy (very heavy?) record clamp (of which, quite a few exist in the market) would now satisfy your condition of "mass acting as a catalyst"...only you'd get no noticeable, for want of an effect, warbling / hunting effects.
Now, as we seem happy with bake-offs, we'll use our trusty rolling bin and flatten said massive clamp into a disc. Et voila, at some point we will end up with hunting = warbling.
Slightly simplistic but I hope you get the idea.
Arthur
It's momentum (strictly, angular momentum) that needs to be kept in the range of the Technics platter, not mass.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 10:03
A query for you scientist types. My brother in law is/was a design engineer. designed machines for Metal Box. He took one look at my TT and said the platter should be much heavier to take advantage of the flywheel effect. My TT is based on a Sansui DD motor and the platter is extremely light but well damped.
I would have thought that the control systems would find it easier to regulate the speed if the platter was light. If there is a lot of mass, wouldn't the variations have a longer period as the corrections would take longer to be applied? This would then sound like a slow wow and be a disaster on piano music and the like.
Certainly, mine is rock steady and piano music sounds solid and decays naturally with no hint of any 'warblin' (Richard:eyebrows:)
I'm not the scientist - but the interpreter. Broadly you are right. Inertia (the flywheel effect) can help with stability in some systems (the original LP12) , but not a DC motor which needs servos to maintain its speed. As Arthur has been (trying) to point out it isn't mass as an absolute (either for servo hunting, or the flywheel effect) but where that mass is distributed to (inertia). What you want mate is a nice Pink Triangle. I know a man with spares in his loft :eyebrows:
It's momentum (strictly, angular momentum) that needs to be kept in the range of the Technics platter, not mass.
By Jove I think he's go tit;)
That seems right Martin. Increased angular momentum won't cause hunting or wow. It means in terms of the control and motor that relative changes of speed will just be slightly slower but that the increased inertia means that once up to speed, there should be less call for deviations from the right speed due to reactions caused by stylus drag forces. Belt drive decks have used this principle for years. My only observation is that the power supply matters. If it's not regulated then variations in incoming supply will cause speed fluctuation changes. If I wanted to pimp my Technics, the areas I'd concentrate on would first and foremost be the power supply.
go tit;)
Are you talking about my private life? :lol:
Gordon Steadman
05-11-2013, 10:16
What you want mate is a nice Pink Triangle. I know a man with spares in his loft :eyebrows:
Wot.......does 'spare' mean what I think it means?;)
Always willing to try stuff in the interests of disinterested interest.
Increased angular momentum won't cause hunting or wow
Actually, Paul, we're saying just the opposite. Increased angular momentum certainly affects the Technics circuit, causing speed to be constantly over-corrected, which causes that 'warble' effect (now the official reference for the unstable speed heard when a 1210 doesn't like the platter it's been given).
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 10:33
Wot.......does 'spare' mean what I think it means?;)
Always willing to try stuff in the interests of disinterested interest.
"DC motors" in my previous reply, should have been DC motors operating at low rotational speed (direct drive) - but you knew that!. Actually it's Owen who has the spares, but offered them to me for tests and evaluations we were discussing. Not sure how to get one over to you and know its' set up right, but can investigate. What arm would you plan to plonk on it (or do you want to borrow one of those too??) Sue is warming to the idea of a wee trip to the Charente, so i can pack a PT for you to play with. But you don't like belt drive suspendeds...:D
See if we can sort something out once the dreaded 31 Jan deadline is out the way. Might bring out a Pip too! ;)
Actually, Paul, we're saying just the opposite. Increased angular momentum certainly affects the Technics circuit, causing speed to be constantly over-corrected, which causes that 'warble' effect (now the official reference for the unstable speed heard when a 1210 doesn't like the platter it's been given).
Ah, sorry Martin, I should have read earlier posts. Hadn't realised it used servo correction.
Gordon Steadman
05-11-2013, 10:44
"DC motors" in my previous reply, should have been DC motors operating at low rotational speed (direct drive) - but you knew that!. Actually it's Owen who has the spares, but offered them to me for tests and evaluations we were discussing. Not sure how to get one over to you and know its' set up right, but can investigate. What arm would you plan to plonk on it (or do you want to borrow one of those too??) Sue is warming to the idea of a wee trip to the Charente, so i can pack a PT for you to play with. But you don't like belt drive suspendeds...:D
See if we can sort something out once the dreaded 31 Jan deadline is out the way. Might bring out a Pip too! ;)
Ah well, I'm a bit short of arms:eyebrows: Cartridges I have.
I'm playing with TTs at the mo and it would be interesting to have yet another to compare. My old Origin Live kit is in its third version. Looks like a dead standard deck but the motor is separate and stands in a cutout. Pic of early stages attached!! Avoids the usual problems with any noise transmission direct through the plinth. Just waiting on some socketry to try it.
WOStantonCS100
05-11-2013, 10:49
Martin, Marco,
Again I have to ask guys. Are you saying the "warble effect" is present when using heavy platters such as a Vantage upgraded or MN bonded platter? If so, when did that become noticeable? As I'm considering all things, I have revisited this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?8639-Mike-New-platter-Oyaide-MJ-12-mat-amp-STB-MS-stabiliser-arrive-at-Marco-Towers wherein I (so far) have not found any reference to such an issue.
I'm confused here, are you guys saying it was purely sonic preference, or that there is an actual issue?
Also, if there are current users of either of these platters, I would love to know if you are experiencing the "warble effect" or not.
Thanks.
Are you talking about my private life? :lol:
Well, not unless there's something you want to get off your chest here and if it would help:eek:
Certainly no one could argue that we don't have an abundance of sensitive ears here and I'm sure Marco would make an exception for going off topic.
:lol:
Again I have to ask guys. Are you saying the "warble effect" is present when using heavy platters such as a Vantage upgraded or MN bonded platter? If so, when did that become noticeable?
Hi Biff
The 'warble' effect appears with platters (certainly the ones I've tried) or platter/mat combinations, where the angular momentum is significantly higher than the Technics standard platter and mat combination.
It is much more audible at 45rpm - try sustained piano. It is present at 33rpm, but more subtle.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 12:05
Hi Biff
The 'warble' effect appears with platters (certainly the ones I've tried) or platter/mat combinations, where the angular momentum is significantly higher than the Technics standard platter and mat combination.
It is much more audible at 45rpm - try sustained piano. It is present at 33rpm, but more subtle.
:scratch:Now we see I'm the accountant not the engineer. I thought that the higher the rotational speed, the smaller the corrections required by the servo's and the LESS they were influenced by high inertia problems. Clearly I've had a Shrodigers cat moment. What have I got wrong? :scratch:
I can see that there is a move to relate this thread to the performance (properties) of DC motors in general but, in my opinion, this is not particularly valid. Many turntables that use a DC motor do not use a feedback loop and those that do do not necessarily apply it in the manner the Technics does.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 12:27
Ah well, I'm a bit short of arms:eyebrows: Cartridges I have.
I told you to be careful with that band-saw :lol:
chris@panteg
05-11-2013, 12:33
I can see that there is a move to relate this thread to the performance (properties) of DC motors in general but, in my opinion, this is not particularly valid. Many turntables that use a DC motor do not use a feedback loop and those that do do not necessarily apply it in the manner the Technics does.
I found a recent Utube video where Peter Qvortrup describes DC motors as not being 'speed constant' and in all cases requiring a feedback loop by their very nature ? he's wrong then ?
I can see that there is a move to relate this thread to the performance (properties) of DC motors in general but, in my opinion, this is not particularly valid. Many turntables that use a DC motor do not use a feedback loop and those that do do not necessarily apply it in the manner the Technics does.
Interested. What TTs (Radikal apart) are you aware of that don't use a servo? Without a servo, they will all drift - albeit softly and smoothly.
(For those not in the loop, Radikal re-claibrates the speed of the platter at each turn-on and relies on a slow decay for constancy over an LP)
:scratch:Now we see I'm the accountant not the engineer. I thought that the higher the rotational speed, the smaller the corrections required by the servo's and the LESS they were influenced by high inertia problems. Clearly I've had a Shrodigers cat moment. What have I got wrong? :scratch:
Most likely that particular speed with that particular momentum has just set the overcorrection in the servo into an oscillation where it's never happy. Remember: it's expecting a low mass, fast responding platter.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 13:02
Remember: it's expecting a low mass, fast responding platter.
That'll be low inertia, fast responding, I take it ;)
Arkless Electronics
05-11-2013, 13:13
AFAIK all DC motors when used in a turntable will indeed need feedback to keep a steady speed. The motors used in cassette decks usually had this built into the motor itself and had a speed set pot accessible via a small hole in the back of the motor...
An AC synchronous motors speed is determined by the frequency of the AC that feeds it and can therefore be pretty constant even with load, whereas a DC motors speed is dependent on the voltage feeding it (and therefore the current it draws) and the load on it, which will vary with stylus drag, ambient temperature effecting viscosity of lubricants etc etc.
RobbieGong
05-11-2013, 13:29
Most likely that particular speed with that particular momentum has just set the overcorrection in the servo into an oscillation where it's never happy. Remember: it's expecting a low mass, fast responding platter.
Hi Martin, So at what point with the techie is there a 'negative' effect. Are we talking from the moment there is even a slight increase in mass over the stock platter ?
Hi Martin, So at what point with the techie is there a 'negative' effect. Are we talking from the moment there is even a slight increase in mass over the stock platter ?
Don't know, Robert. I can only report on what I've heard but I should think that there would be a gradually deleterious effect from the reference of a Technics platter/mat upwards in momentum. At what point you could hear the effect I cannot say.
AFAIK all DC motors when used in a turntable will indeed need feedback to keep a steady speed.
Trans-Fi manage it with their Salvation TT though it took a lot of testing and development to make it work. It the end it was quite simple but everying had to be just right, including the 9kg platter.
sq225917
05-11-2013, 14:16
Robbie, the compensation loop will be accurate within a given range of masses, one could probably safely assume +10% will make no difference. Beyond that i'd really be looking for some measured evidence or a serious piece of calculation based on a high degree of familiarity with the parts and the circuit values. Perhaps one of the designers of a heavy replacement mat can provide us with this information- surely they did the sums of took some measurements of speed stability with their new/old platters. Surely? ;-)
I didn't hear Andrew's deck sans step-up. It sounded very good with the step-up and based on the values I assume was still less than optimal with the 133ohms I had the Paradise loaded with. I suspect sub 50ohm is optional for that cartridge.
I don't think that Andrew choosing to remove the speed slider on his deck was the cause of the lack of 45rpm ability. From what I know of the 1210 electronics it just forms a voltage divider and I know two other people with technics who have removed the slider and neither of them struggle with 45rpm. perhaps someone else with an aftermarket platter and a strobe could chime in and clear this up. I don't know the internals of Andrew's deck so anything is 'possible'- but I figure unlikely.
As Arthur clearly mentions 'mass' per se is no measure or mark, but it's comfortable shorthand to use for discussing inertia, or more accurately moment of inertia, specifically an items ability to resists changes in its rotational speed and something that is defined by its mass, distribution thereof and rotational speed. I think we all know what we are talking about...
This debate has answered one question for me. I have considered pulling the trigger on a record puck for a while now as some partaking in this debate have argued that it is a better solution than a clamp. If high mass can cause speed instability on an SL12XX then I will be steering clear of pucks.
No Dave - a record weight/puck adds damn nearly nothing to the rotational momentum of the platter. My Stillpoints weight is heavy, but doesn't affect start-up or speed stability one jot.
The only thing to be careful of is not to use a very heavy weight with the standard Technics bearing as it may wear prematurely. If you upgrade to a Mike New bearing, you need not worry about any real-world record weight.
Gordon Steadman
05-11-2013, 15:05
I told you to be careful with that band-saw :lol:
Why didn't I see that coming:doh:
What happens when you plonk a heavy record weight (high mass) on a technics deck? (2nd time of asking) (ps you'll like the answer);)
To my ears, it sounds crap (if that's what we're talking about, but if not, it's what concerns me the most anyway).
I know that Martin uses a fairly hefty Stillpoints one, which he claims to good effect (and I trust his ears), but any of the high-mass weights I've used so far with the Techinics have imparted a similar (ponderous, 'dense') sonic signature, as I've described is imparted with a high-mass platter, and which I hugely dislike.
Consequently, unless Martin can demonstrate differently next time I'm down at his place, the Bruil weight which I currently use (340g) is the heaviest I am likely to go with such items :)
Marco.
The Stillpoints weighs 673g, so not in the super-heavy bracket. I love what it does, no ponderous sonic signature here.
krugdoktor
05-11-2013, 17:27
Martin, Marco,
Again I have to ask guys. Are you saying the "warble effect" is present when using heavy platters such as a Vantage upgraded or MN bonded platter? If so, when did that become noticeable? As I'm considering all things, I have revisited this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?8639-Mike-New-platter-Oyaide-MJ-12-mat-amp-STB-MS-stabiliser-arrive-at-Marco-Towers wherein I (so far) have not found any reference to such an issue.
I'm confused here, are you guys saying it was purely sonic preference, or that there is an actual issue?
Also, if there are current users of either of these platters, I would love to know if you are experiencing the "warble effect" or not.
Thanks.
I have the MN bearing and the MN copper-ally platter which is significantly heavier than the original platter (even with the 6mm thick original platter mat). There was never the slightest amount of warble, neither with 33,3 nor with 45 rpm. The MN bearing brought the biggest increase of SQ but also the heavy platter was a very worthwhile upgrade and brought a lot of "security" to the rhythm which was not as pronounced with the original platter + SDS isoplatmat + Herbie's mat 2 (a combination which was very good sounding!).
I had speed problems at 45 rpm with MN bearing and original platter but these were the dreadful "motor dynamics mod" from Dave Cawley. Removing the two components (a resistor and a capacitor) from the PCB restored the torque to it's former glory. Maybe all the mods to the electronics in Andy's (Rexton's) Techy did reduce torque like the "motor dynamics mod"?
Contrary to popular belief I think the flywheel-effect of a higher mass platter (like the MN copper-ally platter) is beneficial to the sound. At least that's what my ears tell me!
:sofa::sorry:
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2013, 17:31
All the mods were done by Paul Hynes. The slider pitch and its components are still alive and well on my PCB. I have no idea why 45rpm is a tad slow. As stated in an earlier post I would optimise the deck further and remove all remnants of 45rpm from my deck, I simply dont use it. I have a Garrard 301 so if I need to play any 45's I'll use that (and the deck is no slouch either :eyebrows:).
The Stillpoints weighs 673g, so not in the super-heavy bracket. I love what it does, no ponderous sonic signature here.
I don't doubt that, Martin, but I'd need to hear it for myself on my own T/T :)
Marco.
Paul Hynes
05-11-2013, 19:01
Hi Andy,
The only things I did to the deck were to repair the damaged regulator modules after your soldering mishap and replace various on board power supply capacitors on your replacement motor board. I left all the other circuitry alone because, at the time, I had not verified any other mods myself on my own deck. I used my standard platter to test it and it was fine on test.
Aside from the platter issue there are other possibilities. The replacement motor board that you acquired was second hand. Perhaps there is a minor fault in the control circuitry on the replacement board that affects the 45 RPM speed control enough to prevent it reaching 45 RPM with a heavy platter. If this is so, it may have been there at purchase or it may have developed later on.
There would only be a couple of reasons why a motor board would be offered second hand. Either the original deck/arm itself had been thrashed to the point of being trashed mechanically and the motor board salvaged from it, or the motor board was malfunctioning and had been replaced, with the malfunctioning board being sold on.
If I think of anything further that might be helpful I will get back to you.
Regards
Paul
lol 37 pages,
OP had made a decision by post 6.:)
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2013, 19:37
Hi Andy,
The only things I did to the deck were to repair the damaged regulator modules after your soldering mishap and replace various on board power supply capacitors on your replacement motor board. I left all the other circuitry alone because, at the time, I had not verified any other mods myself on my own deck. I used my standard platter to test it and it was fine on test.
Aside from the platter issue there are other possibilities. The replacement motor board that you acquired was second hand. Perhaps there is a minor fault in the control circuitry on the replacement board that affects the 45 RPM speed control enough to prevent it reaching 45 RPM with a heavy platter. If this is so, it may have been there at purchase or it may have developed later on.
There would only be a couple of reasons why a motor board would be offered second hand. Either the original deck/arm itself had been thrashed to the point of being trashed mechanically and the motor board salvaged from it, or the motor board was malfunctioning and had been replaced, with the malfunctioning board being sold on.
If I think of anything further that might be helpful I will get back to you.
Regards
Paul
Paul I'm in no way slating your work, in fact my deck came back transformed when It came back home, again many thanks. I just wanted the other guys to get a grip on what mod work had been done to the main pcb (which you describe perfectly :) ). Dont worry about having to get back to me, I'm very very happy with the deck I own. You just keep thinking of ways to more out of the 1210. ;)
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2013, 19:39
True we have 37 pages but at least it details the current status of platter development and con-current problems which may arise from using said platters.
Mike_New
05-11-2013, 19:52
I have the MN bearing and the MN copper-ally platter which is significantly heavier than the original platter (even with the 6mm thick original platter mat). There was never the slightest amount of warble, neither with 33,3 nor with 45 rpm. The MN bearing brought the biggest increase of SQ but also the heavy platter was a very worthwhile upgrade and brought a lot of "security" to the rhythm which was not as pronounced with the original platter + SDS isoplatmat + Herbie's mat 2 (a combination which was very good sounding!).
I had speed problems at 45 rpm with MN bearing and original platter but these were the dreadful "motor dynamics mod" from Dave Cawley. Removing the two components (a resistor and a capacitor) from the PCB restored the torque to it's former glory. Maybe all the mods to the electronics in Andy's (Rexton's) Techy did reduce torque like the "motor dynamics mod"?Contrary to popular belief I think the flywheel-effect of a higher mass platter (like the MN copper-ally platter) is beneficial to the sound. At least that's what my ears tell me!
:sofa::sorry:
Hi Michael,
Your post beat me to it on the subject of feedback-loop mods.
Martin, when you talk of warble with a heavy platter, was this before or after you removed the "motor-dynamics-mod".
As I understand it from DC he "invented" this mod to make the SL1200 sound more like a SP12
If there are any of you who have this mod on you PCB then get rid of it.
Further when we talk about heavy platters, what weight are we talking about??
My Copper Bonded Platter weighs in at about 10Kg and as Mike says he has nothing but praise for it, and comimg from Vienna he must know!
Are there heavier platters in use?
Wakefield Turntables
05-11-2013, 20:00
Mike I have your bonded copper platter and I dont have the DC mod.
Martin, when you talk of warble with a heavy platter, was this before or after you removed the "motor-dynamics-mod".
The motor dynamics mod made 45rpm virtually unlistenable with your platter Mike. I removed it a long time ago after DC told me that it was designed to reduce the torque of the motor. If anyone still has the mod installed, I suggest you remove it as you're not getting the full benefit of that glorious direct drive motor.
The warble after removing the mod was very much reduced.
Oldpinkman
05-11-2013, 20:56
Hi Michael,
Your post beat me to it on the subject of feedback-loop mods.
Martin, when you talk of warble with a heavy platter, was this before or after you removed the "motor-dynamics-mod".
As I understand it from DC he "invented" this mod to make the SL1200 sound more like a SP12
If there are any of you who have this mod on you PCB then get rid of it.
Further when we talk about heavy platters, what weight are we talking about??
My Copper Bonded Platter weighs in at about 10Kg and as Mike says he has nothing but praise for it, and comimg from Vienna he must know!
Are there heavier platters in use?
I don't believe so. I am told funk1 is 1.4kg, standard technics 1.8, funk 2 about 2.2kg. What does etp weigh? There seem to be some very conflicting subjective assessments here. Time for someone to stick a scope on it. This can be measured surely?
WOStantonCS100
05-11-2013, 21:41
I don't believe so. I am told funk1 is 1.4kg, standard technics 1.8, funk 2 about 2.2kg. What does etp weigh? There seem to be some very conflicting subjective assessments here. Time for someone to stick a scope on it. This can be measured surely?
Agreed. I think it's time for some objective testing.
Let's also keep in mind that like motors were used in Technics changers/stackers where by quite possibly 6 12" vinyl records would be stacked on top of one another with the expectation that the motor would still spin all at the rated speed. My father still owns one and I can assure you, it does just that. At an average of 120g per LP, that's another 720 grams of weight spread out (not concentrated in the center) on top of the platter. So, in reference to record weights, a Techy should basically not even flinch with the use of a Stillpoints or any other similarly heavy weight, heavy record mat or outer ring stabilizer.
Here are some quotes straight from Technics for two models which essentially share the same quartz-phase-locked motor platform with heavier platters than the 1200.
SL-M3
"2.5 kg platter reaches rated speed (33-1/3 rpm) in just 0.9 sec. thanks to use of high torque direct-drive motor. The platter is driven by a powerful heteropole direct-drive motor having a very high start-up torque of 1.6 kg.cm That means the massive 2.5 kg platter reaches the 33-1/3 rpm rated speed in only 0.9 seconds. Another advantage of using the powerful motor is that variations in platter speed are zero for changes in the fixed load of up to 1 kg.cm (In other words, the correct platter speed would be maintained even if a tracking force of 200 grams were used.)
W&F .022% WRMS (JIS C5521)
SL-1500MK2
"The integral rotor platter motor delivers 1.3 lb - in (1.5 kg-cm) torque to virtually eliminate the speed fluctuations caused by tonearm or record cleaner drag. In fact, if you could fit 150 tonearms tracking at 2 grams each onto this turntable, it would still rotate at precisely the chosen speed."
W&F .025% WRMS (JIS C5521)
A lot of objective testing has already been carried out in the excellent thread over at PFM. I submitted my Technics with MN Bearing / Funk Platter / Achromat test recording for analysis and the results are shown here (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1823883&highlight=Technics#post1823883). If others with heavy platters could do the same thing, we'll be able to make comparisons. Simon (SQ) has a test record with the correct waveform.
I hope PFM don't mind my reproducing the result here (all rights duly noted). It's a very good result when compared with several other excellent turntables.
http://www.kilmory.demon.co.uk/pics/fmresults/SL1210_2_polar.png
WOStantonCS100
06-11-2013, 07:28
A lot of objective testing has already been carried out in the excellent thread over at PFM. I submitted my Technics with MN Bearing / Funk Platter / Achromat test recording for analysis and the results are shown here (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1823883&highlight=Technics#post1823883). If others with heavy platters could do the same thing, we'll be able to make comparisons. Simon (SQ) has a test record with the correct waveform.
I hope PFM don't mind my reproducing the result here (all rights duly noted). It's a very good result when compared with several other excellent turntables.
Martin,
Thanks for directing attention to that. I've read back into the PFM thread. The performance of your modded 1200 is scarily close to an SP-10MK2. I have to say that this does not surprise me from listening to and/or owning almost all the "MK2" variants for just about as long as I've been alive. And, of course, the specs between the plain jane MK2's and the SP-10 are not at all far apart (in terms of measurements and design philosophy).
Now, I'm even more curious to see the plot for a heavier platter (with the same or nearly the same other mods).
Mike_New
06-11-2013, 07:48
Martin,
What are the units on you polar graph plot? and what is the centre point?, or has the polar plot been mathematically corrected for any out-of-centre rotation of the test record?
The variations are probably due to the efects of the interaction between the 12 driver coils and the 16 poles of the isotropic radially magnetised ferite rotor.
Here is another test that I have devised, perhaps Paul Stewart might be interested in this one as well.
There is or was available a center weight fitted with a crystal controlled laser this is mounted onto your record/platter and swithed on for 33/45
The idea being that the laser projects a spot on a wall or white board which can be marked and observed for deviation longitudinally/radially.
Now if a setup is devised to record these pulses onto a digital camera focused onto a screen in total darkness then we should be able to see either a single spot or a line which will be proportional the total speed deviation over a given period of time say 10 minutes or more.
This should settle the issues once and for all time.
I did not buy one at the time the device was announced as it was a bit expensive about $600 if I recall.
What are the units on you polar graph plot? and what is the centre point?, or has the polar plot been mathematically corrected for any out-of-centre rotation of the test record?
The variations are probably due to the efects of the interaction between the 12 driver coils and the 16 poles of the isotropic radially magnetised ferite rotor.
Hi Mike
You need to fully read the PFM thread. Essentially, a 3.15kHz test tone from a test record is played back and recorded digitally. This is then analysed and the data plotted polar-wise as shown, with the amplification greatly magnified to show any bearing or drive inconsistencies. A spectrum graph is also plotted to get an idea of motor cogging or other frequency modes affecting rotation.
Paul R is the chap who has the software to do the plots. It would be worth your joining PFM and having a chat with him directly.
The scaling doesn't mean anything in reality. Its an exaggerated scale for 5 revolutions of a 3150hz test tone recorded from a test record. Each revolution is overlaid onto of each other, the smaller the circular plots the slow the deck is running, it can highlight some very interesting things about your deck. In the PFM thread somewhere there is a standard 1210 plot and it was not good, the deck or test record could have been at fault. Simons plot for his modified Kuzma was excellent.
This is one of my SP-10s before and after I matched the drive transistors after I took out one drive phase :doh: Hint: The green plot is the good one! Its also scaled to show the difference.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/Nealg_SP10_service_polar_retake.png
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 08:45
Am I missing something? I confess to scanning through the earlier thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?8639-Mike-New-platter-Oyaide-MJ-12-mat-amp-STB-MS-stabiliser-arrive-at-Marco-Towers/page2 but it appears Marco and others are trying a MUCH heavier and higher inertia platter, weight and a new bearing, and greatly prefering the sound to the standard technics, with no mention of the adverse affect on the motor causing "wibble". Marco talks of the strain on his Amex this vast improvement necessitates. Nobody has posted "even with the noticeable wibble caused by the heavier platters, we prefer the Oyaide / Mike New to the stock Techie". And these are platters approaching 10Kg
Now the Funk2 platter comes along, and the Mike New ETP sits in the wings, weighing 2.2Kg and it has a motor trashing effect that nobody troubled to mention before. Doesn't ring true. Of course - brilliant news for Funk if it is, since Funk 2 and ETP are too heavy to work, and everyone can buy Funk 1 instead. But doesn't ring true. I heard the "strata" platter against the standard technics, and, unprimed for a motor problem, heard none. I am down to Newhaven on Tuesday and will get a chance to hear strata against acrylic and will do so. Now - my only interest is whether to make Arthur do me a prototype strata for my PT - which is a considerable faff, since although there are no motor servo issues, the springs, sliders, and centre of mass are all affected. If Techie acrylic (which I haven't heard) is clearly better than Techie strata (which I have) I can save him the bother of the PT prototype. Unless the "problem" with the strata is motor wibble which wouldn't repeat on the Pink Triangle.
I hae me doots.
And Martin - what do your plots tell us about this platter mass/inertia issue? They don't measure any of the heavy platters. So we still need some measurements of the alleged phenomena. I am hoping Arthur will get his silly scope out, but anyway I will take my Nimbus records 45rpm Dvorak 9th down with me, and Little Jimmie Osmond "Tweedle de dee" which Sue has kindly agreed to lend me :cool:
Mike_New
06-11-2013, 08:47
Hi Neil,
So you are saying that the vector magnitude is the speed versus angular position in degrees; plotted as XY co-ordinates
I guess that makes sense.
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 08:53
"The sonic presentation of the SL-1210 now has a power and authority, together with a sense of ease and lack of strain that I've never before experienced. As good as the deck was previously, with it already being extensively modified and upgraded elsewhere, when the stock platter was in place (with any mat), there was a tendency for some material to become 'shouty' and for the overall presentation to lack a little subtlety - and with it the sense that music was being artificially processed, rather than delivered as a genuinely credible and real performance.
This rather annoying 'signature' had always been present no matter the effect of upgrading the PSU, tonearm, mat or feet - until now.
With the Mike New platter in place, gone is the somewhat 'clangy' and sometimes slightly 'over-insistent' presentation of the Techie, and with it the tendency for voices to sound 'shiny' and a little metallic. What one gets now is real depth, emotional expression and tonal colour, which when framed within the significant reduction in the T/Ts overall noisefloor, combines to create a palpable sense of realism.
Quite simply, with the Mike New platter in place, the Techie has finally 'grown up' and thrown off the shackles of its somewhat uncouth exuberance, and more than ever now, has become a genuine (and serious) hi-end turntable. It is now crystal clear to me just how much the flimsy and resonant 'bell-like' stock platter influences the sonic performance of the superb Technics motor unit, and how this effect manifests itself on music.
I feel that this is where the real sonic improvements of the Mike New platter lie (greater mechanical integrity and lower resonance), rather than anything necessarily to do with increased mass, as it fundamentally addresses the deficiencies in the design of the stock platter. Remove those, and the superb Quartz controlled D/D motor and control circuitry take the extra mass of the MN platter in their stride (from initial start-up onwards) and deliver a musical presentation with uncanny realism that engages and beguiles one in a way which almost defies belief. "
What's going on? :scratch:
Am I missing something? I confess to scanning through the earlier thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?8639-Mike-New-platter-Oyaide-MJ-12-mat-amp-STB-MS-stabiliser-arrive-at-Marco-Towers/page2 but it appears Marco and others are trying a MUCH heavier and higher inertia platter, weight and a new bearing, and greatly prefering the sound to the standard technics, with no mention of the adverse affect on the motor causing "wibble". Marco talks of the strain on his Amex this vast improvement necessitates. Nobody has posted "even with the noticeable wibble caused by the heavier platters, we prefer the Oyaide / Mike New to the stock Techie". And these are platters approaching 10Kg
In my case, the negative sonic aspects of the high-mass MN aluminium platter were only discovered when said platter was compared directly with the Funk one, firstly with my T/T at home, and then later in Martin's system, using both my T/T and his. Therefore, that discovery was made much later, after my initial impressions were posted about the improvements the MN platter produced over the stock Technics one, and were simply not mentioned on the forum until the matter came up again much later.
I still fully stand by those comments, as even though the MN platter is by no means perfect (is anything?) it still offers a massive improvement over the stock Technics one (or indeed any combination of 'fancy mats', such as the Oyaide, used on the stock platter), which is a major contributory factor of the, shall we say, less than 'audiophile' sound quality produced by an un-modified SL-1200/1210 (as indeed you've succinctly described, ahem, 'elsewhere' ;))
Let me make this crystal clear:
Mike's composite aluminium platter still remains as a viable upgrade option over the stock Technics item, as it brings some unique sonic qualities to the table (no pun intended), with the Technics SL-1200/1210, that no other aftermarket platter I've heard gives, and in some systems (e.g, Rexton's), the benefits of that will outweigh any negatives, such as have been outlined here. It's simply that Martin and me overall prefer what the Funk (MK I) platter does, in the context of our T/Ts and systems, and believe it to be, overall, more compatible with the control circuitry of the Technics.
In any hi-fi system, synergy between all constituent components is what matters most - and so in some contexts, the 'high-mass' MN platter will be a more ideal choice than any other. The same applies with all the other platters. Therefore, much to the dismay of some (those too lazy to think or make decisions for themselves), platter-wise, there is no 'one size fits all' or universal 'best' - and so, as ever, one simply has to use one's own judgement criteria, and preferably listen to some of the options available, before deciding which solution (if any) is right for you :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 09:33
Marco
I appreciate your points, and concur about our individual preferences and need to choose for ourselves. And I can fully understand how one product can be better than another, until a 3rd product comes along. But the issue here is not a subjective appreciation of the blend of sonic preferences which legitimately affect our choices. It's how much mass the Technics motor can work with. An objective technical issue, which could be measured, for which, for the minute, we are using the "ears as the final arbiter"
My interest is peripheral in a way, since almost regardless i hope to get Arthur to produce a strata PT platter just to try. But it will be helpful to hear the 2 materials on the Technics (since they are both available). The issue is does that decks ability to handle the mass of the platters enter the equation and invalidate the test in the context of choosing a material for my Pink Triangle?
And in that context, in the post I quoted, referring to a platter which I believe Mike New has stated weighs 10Kg, you stated "and the superb Quartz controlled D/D motor and control circuitry take the extra mass of the MN platter in their stride (from initial start-up onwards) and deliver a musical presentation with uncanny realism that engages and beguiles one in a way which almost defies belief. "
I don't understand how that comment fits with Martins assertion that he can "hear" that the motor can't cope with just over 2Kg.
That is my confusion :scratch:
Sorry, I can't help you there. The comments you've quoted from me on that thread, in reference to the abilities of the Technics D/D motor, were posted before I became aware of the negative aspects produced by the MN platter, which prolonged listening and further comparisons unfortunately revealed only too clearly.
This proves how dangerous it is to make snap judgements in audio, and why I resist arriving at a final conclusion about any piece of audio equipment, until after having spent sufficient time with it, in order to get a proper handle on what it's doing.
Being completely non-technical, I can't offer any valid opinion on the graphs or test results published from pfm, or on Martin's assertion above. I've posted here simply to clear up some of the confusion (which Biff outlined) in relation to my earlier comments about the MN composite aluminium platter and where I stand on that matter now :)
Marco.
And Martin - what do your plots tell us about this platter mass/inertia issue? They don't measure any of the heavy platters.
In isolation, Richard, it tells you little except that the Technics has a great drive system with little signs of motor cogging, the MN Bearing doesn't have stiction and and the Funk/Achromat combo are an ideal weight. That's why I suggested that we need similar plots for some heavier combinations where we can start to make comparisons.
Remember, though, that all the test plots are taken at 33rpm and the issues with heavy platters are more evident at 45rpm. Two of the reasons I didn't notice the issue for quite a while is that the problem is subtle at 33rpm and you need to know your system very well; and I rarely play 45rpm material.
If you remember, you were relatively unaware of the problem with the MN platter until I brought the Funk platter down to your place and demonstrated it to you... ;)
Marco.
But the issue here is not a subjective appreciation of the blend of sonic preferences which legitimately affect our choices. It's how much mass the Technics motor can work with.
But it's not, it's not really about the motor as such, it is more about the motor adjustment circuit and the feedback circuit. I realise that it may sound pedantic to make such a distinction but there is a tendency to make simplifications, and draw parallels, that are not valid.
Perhaps I should add: the step-up in sound quality from the Technics platter to the Mike New heavy platter is very large. From the MN platter to the Funk platter is much smaller. Let's not get things out of proportion here.
If you remember, you were relatively unaware of the problem with the MN platter until I brought the Funk platter down to your place and demonstrated it to you... ;)
Yes, exactly, which is why I posted my message above stressing that the comparison is more subtle. I was also more aware of it when playing 45rpm records, and once heard it was easier to spot.
Precisely...
In fact, the effect is so "subtle" (I would refer more accurately to it as 'deceivingly unobtrusive', until exposed), that you were largely unaware of it until uncle Marco came down and demonstrated it, lol. That was a rather enlightening day, in various ways, if you remember! :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 10:08
But it's not, it's not really about the motor as such, it is more about the motor adjustment circuit and the feedback circuit. I realise that it may sound pedantic to make such a distinction but there is a tendency to make simplifications, and draw parallels, that are not valid.
Absolutely. I appreciate the point. And that ability is related to inertia not mass. But the discussion had simplified itself down into "heavy platters cause the motor a problem which can be heard" and I was going with the flow :)
yawn..lets move on now :)
As ever with anything 'hifi' if one chooses to strike out on a quest to upgrade, the journey will highlight subtle textural differences in the reproduction of music as one seeks to improve individual elements within a system. Often these differences are positive but occasionally they can also be negative. What cannot be denied is that any perceived improvement (or otherwise) in musical reproduction is intimate to the individual concerned and it is he or she who is the final arbiter. This is why there are such a diversity of products available as the various manufacturers and developers know this to be the case. The discerning audiophile will never tolerate a 'catch all' solution because their appreciation of music goes beyond the norm and on into subtleties of timbre. My apologies if this seems a little pompous, it is not meant to be.
The discerning audiophile will never tolerate a 'catch all' solution because their appreciation of music goes beyond the norm and on into subtleties of timbre. My apologies if this seems a little pompous, it is not meant to be.
If that's pompous, then bring on the Piat d'Or.
:eek:
arthur
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 16:17
As ever with anything 'hifi' if one chooses to strike out on a quest to upgrade, the journey will highlight subtle textural differences in the reproduction of music as one seeks to improve individual elements within a system. Often these differences are positive but occasionally they can also be negative. What cannot be denied is that any perceived improvement (or otherwise) in musical reproduction is intimate to the individual concerned and it is he or she who is the final arbiter. This is why there are such a diversity of products available as the various manufacturers and developers know this to be the case. The discerning audiophile will never tolerate a 'catch all' solution because their appreciation of music goes beyond the norm and on into subtleties of timbre. My apologies if this seems a little pompous, it is not meant to be.
I wouldn't presume to comment about pompous. I will indulge in another hand-wringing bout of angst about the shift in the market away from dealers. Nothing wrong with the principle, except htf do you get to audition stuff? Before you pipe up Marco, why did a serious buyer and loyal forum member like Al end up buying a platter blind instead of having the chance to dem them? Who is going to lend me a Dynavector 20-2, Ortofon Cadenza Black and Blue, Shelter 5000, and one of Paul's tasty Reffc cartridges to evaluate. Ultimately i am seriously in the market for a good cartridge - but I don't rule out the possibility that my needle from Arizona will be the cartridge of choice. So what does the discerning audiophile do about that? :(
I wouldn't presume to comment about pompous.
No. You'd better not.
I'm looking forward to a decent Penfolds (prefer a Rioja) next Tuesday.
OK. P. d'Or it is. Blue Nun? Either way, by the end a blunt G800 will sound just fine.
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 16:45
No. You'd better not.
I'm looking forward to a decent Penfolds (prefer a Rioja) next Tuesday.
OK. P. d'Or it is. Blue Nun? Either way, by the end a blunt G800 will sound just fine.
We'll get in trouble if we have too much of a private love-in on here, but I would note I know someone with a DV20-2 who won't lend it because its a virgin! About the only virgin I've ever known at your gaff mate! See you tuesday, and as I recall it was your round! :cool:
I wouldn't presume to comment about pompous. I will indulge in another hand-wringing bout of angst about the shift in the market away from dealers. Nothing wrong with the principle, except htf do you get to audition stuff? Before you pipe up Marco, why did a serious buyer and loyal forum member like Al end up buying a platter blind instead of having the chance to dem them? Who is going to lend me a Dynavector 20-2, Ortofon Cadenza Black and Blue, Shelter 5000, and one of Paul's tasty Reffc cartridges to evaluate. Ultimately i am seriously in the market for a good cartridge - but I don't rule out the possibility that my needle from Arizona will be the cartridge of choice. So what does the discerning audiophile do about that? :(
No one dems cartridges as they are effectively 2nd hand then, they look at reviews, research the best product for their application, if lucky enough to find a good dealer who send things out "on trust" great, if not buy it and use the distance selling regulations to send it back if it's no good for you.
Many websites sell boxes, the owners don't even have hi-fi systems at home, those with 100's of different brands who don't really care about what the customer wants or needs they just shift boxes, other sites with a small number of carefully chosen brands who care about what they sell and are obsessive about hi-fi and their customers, then there are all the ones in between the 2 I have highlighted.
I would guess Al ordered a platter because A. he can afford it B. he has read others have got one and like it C. he is an obsessive tinkerer who likes his toys (like a lof of us)
I'm interested to hear the results on a platter "bake off" as I have one listed on the upgrade path, even though it won't be realised for a while. There is the bearing and tonearm to be done first.....
I'm interested to hear the results on a platter "bake off" as I have one listed on the upgrade path, even though it won't be realised for a while. There is the bearing and tonearm to be done first.....
So little time so many up-grades to do, this lot have I missed anything?
Feet
Platter
Bearing
PSU
Internals
Tonearm
Tonearm Cable
Cart
Mat
Who is going to lend me a Dynavector 20-2, Ortofon Cadenza Black and Blue, Shelter 5000, and one of Paul's tasty Reffc cartridges to evaluate.
No-one demos cartridges any more and it's a problem finding the right one for you. Your best bet is to hear one in another system, as well as read reviews by trusted writers to at least create a shortlist. From your list, I've owned one in the past and own one of them now. If you lived a little closer, you'd be welcome to come and have a listen to the Shelter.
sq225917
06-11-2013, 18:05
A lot of objective testing has already been carried out in the excellent thread over at PFM. I submitted my Technics with MN Bearing / Funk Platter / Achromat test recording for analysis and the results are shown here (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1823883&highlight=Technics#post1823883). If others with heavy platters could do the same thing, we'll be able to make comparisons. Simon (SQ) has a test record with the correct waveform.
I hope PFM don't mind my reproducing the result here (all rights duly noted). It's a very good result when compared with several other excellent turntables.
http://www.kilmory.demon.co.uk/pics/fmresults/SL1210_2_polar.png
The inter revolution accuracy is indeed very good but take a minute to consider how round it is. That's actually very poor, in fact in noticeably resembles an octogon as opposed to a circle. Pop your platter off and look at the motor windings, how many does it have? Typically that would imply a cogging artefact.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3706/10711325725_bf9860c555_b.jpg
Notice also it's not centred on the 0,0 point, it's off to one side which would indicate a speed skew at a regular point per revolution. a weak winding perhaps or a touch of drag at one point on the bearing.
For comparison here's my deck with my old PSU on it, this is just a big old step down transformer, but it's running into a thick bearing oil.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/10711594666_f2f726e96f_b.jpg
Draw your own conclusion. I can put up both with the perfect circle as overlay if you'd like.
So little time so many up-grades to do, this lot have I missed anything?
Feet
Platter
Bearing
PSU
Internals
Tonearm
Tonearm Cable
Cart
Mat
Fondu set Cuddly toy?
sq225917
06-11-2013, 18:13
It's as long thread over on PFM so here's the highlight, the EMT 950 was the best with a good Sp10mk2 coming in 2nd.
The inter revolution accuracy is indeed very good but take a minute to consider how round it is. That's actually very poor, in fact in noticeably resembles an octogon as opposed to a circle. Pop your platter off and look at the motor windings, how many does it have? Typically that would imply a cogging artefact.
12 drive coils, three sensor coils. I understand the magnet has 16 poles. I guess 4 is a common denominator so perhaps that explains the slight 'octagonisation'.
Is your plot from the exact same test record?
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 18:29
No-one demos cartridges any more and it's a problem finding the right one for you. Your best bet is to hear one in another system, as well as read reviews by trusted writers to at least create a shortlist. From your list, I've owned one in the past and own one of them now. If you lived a little closer, you'd be welcome to come and have a listen to the Shelter.
I'd never expect a home dem for the reasons Dave outlined. But in my youff I could visit a small handfull of dealers and hear most of the likely candidates in sufficiently similar systems. With the move to direct sales it becomes "take a punt". Marco had been emphasising how easily you and he could borrow kit to evaluate, and I have been noting that you are fortunate in that regard. Most are not so fortunate :(
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 18:34
My earlier banter with Arthur reminds me I had a PM from Mike New today. I replied to express my support for common sense and reason, but wanted to emphasise that I was a close friend of Arthurs (since I percieved he had not necessarily appreciated that) and that, whilst continuing to support rational debate, I was a friend of Arthur of Funk.
My original turn of phrase was that I "bat for the other side" - but on reflection, given its Arthur we're talking about, I felt that was open to misinterpretation, so changed it:doh:
I'd never expect a home dem for the reasons Dave outlined. But in my youff I could visit a small handfull of dealers and hear most of the likely candidates in sufficiently similar systems. With the move to direct sales it becomes "take a punt". Marco had been emphasising how easily you and he could borrow kit to evaluate, and I have been noting that you are fortunate in that regard. Most are not so fortunate :(
I just found a cartridge i like, and have stuck with it (it's had one re-build, which was surprisingly cheap). Mind you, I'm not much of a box-swapper, having used the same unmodded turntable for 20 years, finally trading it in for a new model from the same company about five years ago.
Oldpinkman
06-11-2013, 18:53
I just found a cartridge i like, and have stuck with it (it's had one re-build, which was surprisingly cheap). Mind you, I'm not much of a box-swapper, having used the same unmodded turntable for 20 years, finally trading it in for a new model from the same company about five years ago.
Lucky b******. I have had my turntable for 30 years and had the cartridge (4 of the same one) until the babysitter ripped the cantilever out. I'd get another if I could :(
... I was a close friend of Arthurs .
My original turn of phrase was that I "bat for the other side" - but on reflection, given its Arthur we're talking about,...misinterpretation, so changed it:doh:
Close friend to...an accountant. What does THAT say about MY street cred...
:o
Well I was married to one - also trained as an auditor!
Mike_New
06-11-2013, 22:08
Posted by Simon (Sq2225917)
"The inter revolution accuracy is indeed very good but take a minute to consider how round it is. That's actually very poor, in fact in noticeably resembles an octogon as opposed to a circle. Pop your platter off and look at the motor windings, how many does it have? Typically that would imply a cogging artefact"
I believe that your approximation to an octagon is somewhat simplistic and does not take into account the calculated mean deviation at all points on the plot. This is where these "tests can be very misleading"
In actual fact the motor system is as follows:
12 Drive coils; a 16 pole radially magnetised ferite magnet: an 8 pole pulse generator; interacting with 3 pairs of sense coils. pulse generator printed circuit which wraps around the coil assembly and interacts with the rotating magnet.
I have not done the calcs to determine what this represents as possible vector position points that could be determined on a plot.
But I bet it will be far more than 8
What magnitude of speed error does the plot represent, it looks all very impressive but the numbers do not tell me anything.
Yep, I got my coils and poles the wrong way round - sorry about that. I even counted the coils :doh:
Mike_New
06-11-2013, 22:58
Martin,
The design of the motor control circuit is elegant when you consider when it was first made and there are considerably more than 8 points of input. Can you tell me what the vector units are for your plot and what the vector rotation point is?? Without these numbers surely you would have to agree that the plot does not tell us very much. If it is supposed to indicate speed variation at any angular position then what magnitude of variation are we seeing? 5% 1% 0.01% 0.0001%???? surely you would want to know this.
I personally find the plot very interesting technically, and would like to know more.
Well I was married to one - also trained as an auditor!
The clue lies in Richard's original post - "...close friend of Arthur's", so I can't have been (and wasn't) serious.
Instant apologies if offence taken...None meant!
Hi Mike
It's all buried in this long thread by Paul R at PFM:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70027
Despite what Simon says, the Technics plot is very good compared with many of the plots in that thread. I agree that the DD motor and control electronics are very elegantly designed.
Looking at the motor, it's a work of art and amazing in a relatively low cost mass produced model.
Oldpinkman
07-11-2013, 09:44
Martin
First, thanks for the offer to hear the Shelter. As you note, a pity you are not a bit closer. I have been a bit preoccupied taking Mrs S in for a retread on her gynae surgery. i think she's properly vulcanised now, but I have been trying to follow all this on my Samsung Galaxy Note which is not first pick for either viewing graphs or flitting between threads.
Can I just check, the accountants , non-engineer take on this? Would I be right in concluding that the (very long) PFM thread establishes a methodology for testing the stability of the drive, establishes that it is valid after a few refinements, and produces plots where "perfect" would be a circle, and wobbles in the circle are bad?
It goes on to speculate about whether it can "see" the faults in the motor in question by counting how many wobbles there are, but this is inconclusive. What is clear is that fewer and smaller wobbles are good .
The only Technics 1200 tested is the one you supplied with MN bearing and Funk platter (presumably no record weight) and that measures remarkably well (its the plot you've been posting)?
And presumably the graphs show on paper what you hear on audition as the "warble"? The measured Technics deck shows a smooth(ish) circle which can be heard as low warble?
So, presumably, in the context of this thread, the next step would be to carry out the same test using the acrylic and strata platters, along with the technics original, MN ETP, and maybe MN copper, keep all other parameters constant (which means use a Mike New bearing to take the weight of the 10Kg platter) and see whether they have different shaped wobbles, and which one wobbles least? At the moment we don't know whether it is the inherent quality of the Technics motor which produces those plots regardless of the platter mass, or whether it is a "magic synergy" between the mass of the acrylic platter and the Technics motor?
Or, are we saying the graphs are pretty but irrelevant to warble? And we all just love Techies ;)
Can I just check, the accountants , non-engineer take on this? Would I be right in concluding that the (very long) PFM thread establishes a methodology for testing the stability of the drive, establishes that it is valid after a few refinements, and produces plots where "perfect" would be a circle, and wobbles in the circle are bad?
It goes on to speculate about whether it can "see" the faults in the motor in question by counting how many wobbles there are, but this is inconclusive. What is clear is that fewer and smaller wobbles are good .
The only Technics 1200 tested is the one you supplied with MN bearing and Funk platter (presumably no record weight) and that measures remarkably well (its the plot you've been posting)?
That's agreed so far. I did use my Stillpoints record weight to produce that test reading.
And presumably the graphs show on paper what you hear on audition as the "warble"?
No, I didn't measure a heavy platter so I know of no graph that shows the speed regulation problem with a Technics and heavy platter. All we are doing is speculating that it may show the issue.
So, presumably, in the context of this thread, the next step would be to carry out the same test using the acrylic and strata platters, along with the technics original, MN ETP, and maybe MN copper, keep all other parameters constant (which means use a Mike New bearing to take the weight of the 10Kg platter) and see whether they have different shaped wobbles, and which one wobbles least? At the moment we don't know whether it is the inherent quality of the Technics motor which produces those plots regardless of the platter mass, or whether it is a "magic synergy" between the mass of the acrylic platter and the Technics motor?
Correct. I restate: we don't know what, if anything, we might see. However, some members have asked for objective measurement and I offered this as a way of seeing whether speed correction issues due to platter weight may be visible. It doesn't speak for platter material reflections or any other qualitative value of the platter.
Oldpinkman
07-11-2013, 11:31
Brilliant. Thanks Martin. I am pretty sure I've got that and it makes sense. I'll see if I can get AK measuring for when I go down to see him on Tuesday (pity I have to "waste" time on work first). Of course that will only be the 2 funks and the standard technics unless someone can lend him an MN (wait till I've confirmed he can set the tests up) I've also emailed him to have a look at this thread himself. If I'm not mistaken it brings up one of his favourite themes. (Does anyone have a dustbug I could borrow to take down with me?)
Also - unless I have again got muddled I am pretty sure this plot is for the premotec motor - with a belt drive - famously used in the Pink Triangle Anniversary, and although it appears and disappears without mention, I make it the roundest smoothest of the lot
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/premotecdc_zps532b3fc7.jpg
This is probably sinful thread drift, but I'm just gonna have to take my chances with the naughty step, and indulge in wallowing in a warm glowing feeling of smugness. Arthur - get that bloody pimping project ready for tuesday. I trust you still have a premotec in a drawer to go with that old anni sub-chassis you found. I want to get a new thread started and I NEED MY TOYS!!!
Oh- soz - plot taken from PFM with thanks. :)
:cool:
It's not the roundest by any means. However, you can get very good speed stability and accuracy from the Premotec - if you do it right...
This is probably sinful thread drift, but I'm just gonna have to take my chances with the naughty step, and indulge in wallowing in a warm glowing feeling of smugness...
Look, I know you like w*nking over nice round holes (preferably with hair around them), but get a grip, old boy!! :lol:
Confucious say: worry not about what the squiggly circles show, for it is but a smokescreen, and prioritise instead how the spinner of discs sounds to the ears, for that is the real truth, and the only thing that matters.... ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
07-11-2013, 12:29
Look, I know you like wanking over nice round, smooth holes (preferably with hair around them), but get a grip, old boy!! :lol:
Confucious say: worry not about what the squiggly circles show, for it is but a smokescreen, and prioritise instead how the spinner of discs sounds to the ears, for that is the real truth, and the only thing that matters.... ;)
Marco.
Have you heard an Anni? :cool:
Yes, but not for years! The vague memory I have of it was good, though! :)
Marco.
Have you heard an Anni? :cool:
l have- and was bloody amazing in my top 10 of memorable hifi moments.
Yes, but not for years! The vague memory I have of it was good, though! :)
Marco.
Careful...memories sometimes have a knack of coming back to haunt...;)
(decidely older pink man)
Lol...! Talking of memories, have you 'forgotten' that I've sent you a PM and email recently? ;)
Go and have a look....
Marco.
Lol...! Talking of memories, have you 'forgotten' that I've sent you a PM and email recently? ;)
Go and have a look....
Marco.
...don't they say, good things are worth waiting for?:eyebrows:
Aye! Have you read them, then? :)
Marco.
Aye! Have you read them, then? :)
Marco.
:)
Have you heard an Anni? :cool:
Daily:D
No, that's a Fanni..... :eyebrows:
Marco.
No, that's a Fanni..... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Cant manage more than weekly on that these days:wheniwasaboy:
Paul
WOStantonCS100
07-11-2013, 20:08
Brilliant. Thanks Martin. I am pretty sure I've got that and it makes sense. I'll see if I can get AK measuring for when I go down to see him on Tuesday (pity I have to "waste" time on work first). Of course that will only be the 2 funks and the standard technics unless someone can lend him an MN (wait till I've confirmed he can set the tests up) I've also emailed him to have a look at this thread himself. If I'm not mistaken it brings up one of his favourite themes. (Does anyone have a dustbug I could borrow to take down with me?)
Also - unless I have again got muddled I am pretty sure this plot is for the premotec motor - with a belt drive - famously used in the Pink Triangle Anniversary, and although it appears and disappears without mention, I make it the roundest smoothest of the lot
http://i1315.photobucket.com/albums/t582/oldpinkman/premotecdc_zps532b3fc7.jpg
This is probably sinful thread drift, but I'm just gonna have to take my chances with the naughty step, and indulge in wallowing in a warm glowing feeling of smugness. Arthur - get that bloody pimping project ready for tuesday. I trust you still have a premotec in a drawer to go with that old anni sub-chassis you found. I want to get a new thread started and I NEED MY TOYS!!!
Oh- soz - plot taken from PFM with thanks. :)
:cool:
I'm not sure we're looking at the same representation, between Martin's and this one. Take a look at the axes. Is this really a like plot?
Oldpinkman
07-11-2013, 20:36
Same thread. Same test. Different tester, but they all were. :)
Same thread. Same test. Different tester, but they all were. :)
You need to read the rest of the thread ;)
You need to read the rest of the thread ;)
all 44 pages?
Shouldn't you be getting ready for Owston! :)
The next few pages mention calibration and resolution. The plots are quite different IE: Another plot of the same Deck&Recording:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/eddthompson/bix2_zps5e2e0e2f.jpg
That looks more believable, and shows less circularity (although better drive consistency) than my Technics!
Shouldn't you be getting ready for Owston! :)
The next few pages mention calibration and resolution. The plots are quite different IE: Another plot of the same Deck&Recording:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/eddthompson/bix2_zps5e2e0e2f.jpg
I started penning a post over the w/e but got distracted and now Martin has piped in with some of the points. So, with a nod and a wink in his direction, I'll go ahead anyway...
For fidelity of reproduction we want vanishingly little intrusion from each and every single component.
To this end we all know that when rotating a platter at .5 rps, a stock 1200 with its limited number of coils, hunting and pulsing does not come through.
Thus, Techie's engineers did a remarkable job in balancing all the various factors so well for which the curves we have seen tell the story. As an analogy for these curves we can think of a tool that magnifies dots on a tv screen and the brian blends them seamlessly into a picture.
Buried within is, however, a host of detail allowing us to view and compare various drive aspects in one go - motor drive, bearing eccentricity, wow and flutter and drift. There is a down side, namely, presenting so many bits of information seriously impedes taking actual values.
I recall a TT group test in HF for Pleasure (Practical?), which included comparative feedback graphs, w-a-y back when. In said review, one turntable stood out, head and shoulders above all else.
Its graph was all but perfect! Which TT might that have been? Oops. The name slips my mind...Senior moment:lol:
Similarly, the first Premotec curve always was more than a touch suspect - It too appeared too good to be true.
The attraction of a belt drive system: A high inertia system with minimal external intervention by the motor.
But it doesn't stop there.
The idea behind Anniversary, with it's motor uniquely mounted on the sub-chassis, was that it was a belt drive emulation of a direct drive system. For this we needed a supremely quiet yet powerful motor.
With Neal showing the corrected second Premotec curve, this is more like it. When compared to other drives, the Premotec motor's micro high frequency / very low in amplitude pulses simply they can't intrude. Interestingly (for me) the motor information is very similar to ours that we got when selecting the motor for the Anniversary back in the dim and distant past...as it ought, for it's the same motor!:doh:
Time marches on and with each development we get ever closer to our goal - the inclusion of a vectoring drive would close the gap ever more.
Or how about...? Nah. Let's leave that for another day.
That leaves the other aspects of drive to be assessed from design to design when each element will add (or remove!) it's own sonic flavour to the final blend.
Still, it is good that other people are independently validating a "dangerous" choice made oh so long ago.
Arthur
Oldpinkman
11-11-2013, 09:39
As an analogy for these curves we can think of a tool that magnifies dots on a tv screen and the brian blends them seamlessly into a picture.
Arthur
Who's Brian, and which blender does he use? - we're looking for a new one!
On a more important note I'm glad you haven't lost the faith - which means no excuses for not finding that premotec in a drawer for tomorrow :)
It's a good plot, Arthur, and I assume the lack of circularity would be most likely down to a not quite perfectly machined pulley?
It's a good plot, Arthur, and I assume the lack of circularity would be most likely down to a not quite perfectly machined pulley?
Hello Martin,
I don't think so.
It makes more sense to us mere mortals to calibrate the graph to show a per platter revolution, as has been on the Techie.
Take a motor rotating at 250 rpm - the Philips AC motor, say. The motor rpm is fixed and so this would exhibit a 4.1 Hz modulation (250/60) for any pulley error i.e. because the platter rotates at .55 Hz, we would see some 7.3 wibbles on the great circle.
I use the above example only because in the case of the Bix, using a(ny) DC motor, one can vary both pulley diameter and the speed to get the correct platter rotation. Thus just from a picture we don't know what the actual pulley diameter / motor rpm is.
I'm going to have a guess at about 8mm = 1250 rpm, which gives us about 21Hz, which is pretty darn quick.
One wouldn't reference that for the great circle.
The flattening suggests a non-perfect rotation of the platter, especially as it is non-precessive. I.e. The flat is not wandering round the great circle but remaining in the same general area per revolution, which is well within either experimental tolerance or simply showing the engineering tolerance at play - Ouch. Sorry about that.
Arthur
Ah yes, of course. There's me thinking direct drive. It has to be a platter or main bearing artefact.
pure sound
11-11-2013, 10:25
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/eddthompson/bix2_zps5e2e0e2f.jpg
Isn't that plot from one of those BIX kit turntables with a Premotec DC motor?
(Oops, I see Arthur also pointed that out)
With regard to belt drives, fixed/suspended subchassis or belt drive with motor on subchassis, I'm currently enjoying Direct Drive on a suspended subchassis. Not a new idea by any means, Goldmund were doing it 30+ years ago but it seems to be a sensible approach and with no belt or pulley consistency to worry about!
krugdoktor
11-11-2013, 16:40
Maybe it got lost in all the 45 :doh: pages of this thread but I don't recall a single written word if Audio Al is happy with his (Mike) new platter!
Ammonite Audio
11-11-2013, 16:54
The flattening suggests a non-perfect rotation of the platter, especially as it is non-precessive. I.e. The flat is not wandering round the great circle but remaining in the same general area per revolution, which is well within either experimental tolerance or simply showing the engineering tolerance at play - Ouch. Sorry about that.
Arthur
I had a Bix and the platter was a very loose fit around the bearing sleeve (the platter actually wobbled), so Arthur's diagnosis fits perfectly with my obervations.
Audio Al
11-11-2013, 23:59
Maybe it got lost in all the 45 :doh: pages of this thread but I don't recall a single written word if Audio Al is happy with his (Mike) new platter!
Al has not fitted it yet
Will do at some point
Lots on at the moment with a club I am the treasurer of and it year end , Audit , AGM prep etc , And my job
How do I fit it all in ?
I do keep picking it up and going Ooo Arrr Etc :lol:
The best platters are made from an alloy of 25% osmium, 20% tungsten and 55% depleted-uranium. Accept no other - you know it makes sense!
The Grand Wazoo
12-11-2013, 00:34
That only adds up to 100% - real audiophiles demand products that are greater than the sum of their parts.
OK - add 2% antimony to the mix!
The Grand Wazoo
12-11-2013, 00:39
That'll do it!
Haha - you should know. It adds 'weight' to shotgun pellets.
Mike_New
12-11-2013, 01:45
The best platters are made from an alloy of 25% osmium, 20% tungsten and 55% depleted-uranium. Accept no other - you know it makes sense!
Hi Barry,
I'm working on one, but I can't get any Osmium.
On a much happier note: I am now communicating with Richard at long last (who looks after my Website) and he has put up the details of my ETP Platter for those that may be interested. These Platters do not have to have any Brass Inserts and can be plain as explained in the description.
That only adds up to 100% - real audiophiles demand products that are greater than the sum of their parts.
No, no, no! The 95%-ers have the correct approach. You should *know* you need 5% dark matter in the mix to get full 'musicality', 'pitch perfect reproduction' and, of course, a 'foot tapping' element.
These Platters do not have to have any Brass Inserts and can be plain as explained in the description.
Hi Mike - I take it that you listened to and discarded the brass inserts? Does the ETP still have the centre boss/hub? I would love to hear one up against the Funk Platter. What mat do you recommend to go with it?
The Grand Wazoo
12-11-2013, 07:22
No, no, no! The 95%-ers have the correct approach. You should *know* you need 5% dark matter in the mix to get full 'musicality', 'pitch perfect reproduction' and, of course, a 'foot tapping' element.
Hmmmmmmmmm...........interesting. l suppose it means you shouldn't need a clamp!
Mike_New
12-11-2013, 07:35
Hi Mike - I take it that you listened to and discarded the brass inserts? Does the ETP still have the centre boss/hub? I would love to hear one up against the Achromat. What mat do you recommend to go with it?
Hi Martin,
Actually I listened to the one with the Brass inserts once or twice but could not discern a great deal of difference between it and the one without them. I produced the ETP Platter in response to people who felt they wanted a less heavy platter, and which would not accentuate the lower frequencies as much, I beleive you were one of those.
The Brass inserts added about 500gms to the weight and some people who got them thought they looked good.
in fact since I personally machine each platter I can in fact customise them to folks personal requirements.
All my Platters have a centrally machined boss/hub which is an integral part of the Platter (see my website). Together with threaded lifting holes.
Some people feel they want to use the platter on it's own, so I machine a label recess for them.
Regarding Mats: I am still using the original soft ribbed silicon Technics mat on my Copper Bonded Platter.
The big advantage is: it presents a nice soft bed for the record and more importantly it is dished by about 2.0mm from the outer edge to the centre, (edge of label area) so it copes beutifully with slightly warped records when using a centre weight.
I think that a 5mm Achromat, bonded firmly to an ETP platter (minus label recess), the same way as is done to a Funk one, would sound great :)
Looking forward to comparing the ETP to the Funk (MK I), Mike. When are you shipping one out to David, so he can send it onto Martin and me for assessment - or is it already on its way? :cool:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
12-11-2013, 19:50
Al has not fitted it yet
Will do at some point
Lots on at the moment with a club I am the treasurer of and it year end , Audit , AGM prep etc , And my job
How do I fit it all in ?
I do keep picking it up and going Ooo Arrr Etc :lol:
Blimey - I've swapped platters on a techie a dozen times today, and visited 6 clients. Treat yourself al!
:cool:
Platters, platters and more platters, ooo errrrr what's going on :)
Ali Tait
15-11-2013, 23:43
Well I'm happily chillin out with the original platter on my 401. :D
Platters, platters and more platters, ooo errrrr what's going on :)
Who cares. :) Original platter and Mat...and PROUD! :D
Oldpinkman
16-11-2013, 07:29
C'mon al.
Stop keeping us all in suspenders :)
Audio Al
16-11-2013, 08:42
C'mon al.
Stop keeping us all in suspenders :)
No hope yet I'm afraid
Lots on at the moment
Work
Boat Club Committee , Its our year end so finalizing the Club accounts dealing with the auditors :rolleyes:
setting up a new Club Postal delivery address
Prepping myself for the treasurers report at our AGM in a few weeks time
Its not just putting the platter on
I have to set up the
Arm OL Encounter MK111 c
The Shelter 5000
The Arkless Turbo
The MN platter
Decide what amp to run ?
Decide What speakers to use ?
All for the maiden voyage :D
I have some holiday in 3 weeks time after the AGM ( I am not standing for treasurer again next year:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::non o::nono::nono: :argument: )
No hope yet I'm afraid
Lots on at the moment
Work
Boat Club Committee , Its our year end so finalizing the Club accounts dealing with the auditors :rolleyes:
setting up a new Club Postal delivery address
Prepping myself for the treasurers report at our AGM in a few weeks time
Its not just putting the platter on
I have to set up the
Arm OL Encounter MK111 c
The Shelter 5000
The Arkless Turbo
The MN platter
Decide what amp to run ?
Decide What speakers to use ?
All for the maiden voyage :D
I have some holiday in 3 weeks time after the AGM ( I am not standing for treasurer again next year:nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::non o::nono::nono: :argument: )
B'Jesus you have missed some stuff out there........
Platters, platters and more platters, ooo errrrr what's going on...
Indeed - when's the ETP one coming my way for assessment (as discussed), daftee? It would be good to know if Mike's shipped it to you yet, or what? :)
Marco.
Well I'm happily chillin out with the original platter on my 401. :D
Lol - just wait 'till you start getting into fancy plinths, bearings, 12" arms, etc, for the Garrard - Dom'll soon empty yer bank account!! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Lol - just wait 'till you start getting into fancy plinths, bearings, 12" arms, etc, for the Garrard - Dom'll soon empty yer bank account!! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
He has a fancy plinth and a decent arm, cartridge and I suspect a mat as I lent him one
at least I think I did, oooooooo and one of the very best phono stages ever made :)
Vinyl heaven in Tait Towers I think.
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 09:38
Already have a two tier slate plinth!
Big shout out to Dom though, he took the time to advise on servicing and set the arm and cart up for me. Thanks Dom!
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 09:40
He has a fancy plinth and a decent arm, cartridge and I suspect a mat as I lent him one
at least I think I did, oooooooo and one of the very best phono stages ever made :)
Vinyl heaven in Tait Towers I think.
Dave, I put the mat back on your table at Owston. Can you make sure you have it?
Already have a two tier slate plinth!
Big shout out to Dom though, he took the time to advise on servicing and set the arm and cart up for me. Thanks Dom!
Yeah, undoubtedly Dom's a top man :)
However, don't be under any illusions: the Garrard will (if you want it to) expose you to a whole world of tweakery!! Such things are not the sole domain of the Techy... :trust:
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 09:42
And yes, have a loan of one of Nick's phono stages. Just got it all up and running last night. Sounding fabulous!
I'll stick up some pics later.
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 09:46
Quick question- I'm getting a lot of static, to the point where the mat comes away with the record. At the moment there is no mains earth on the mains cable to the TT. Is there any mileage in connecting a mains earth and running a wire to one of the spindle bolts to help this?
He has a fancy plinth and a decent arm, cartridge and I suspect a mat as I lent him one
at least I think I did, oooooooo and one of the very best phono stages ever made...
Vinyl heaven in Tait Towers I think.
Yo - did you see the question I asked you in post #467? An answer would be nice :)
Churz!
Marco.
Oldpinkman
16-11-2013, 10:06
No hope yet I'm afraid
)
You big tease! I couldn't do that - as you may have noticed from other threads. I have patience and attention span measured in nanoseconds, and am playing with the toys before they are even properly out of the packaging. I see you are brandishing a Shelter 5000 there. If you could have it in the boot in February when the next TW audio fair is on, I'll make sure we have plenty of tea.
I am due to be force fed one of those Technics doodahs on the 29th, with the 2 funk platters, cos Arthur wanted my opinion, and I hadn't the time, and didn't like his factory system for doing the job properly (and forgot to take my copy of Little Jimmy Osmond Tweedlede dee 45rpm), and although he tried to pack me off with the deck we were listening to, the arm was the one without a cueing device, and I know just how far to push my luck :doh:
Astonishes me how everybody can bravely buck the old '70's 80's 90's trend and recognise Technics made some great HiFi products (U205C Mk3 or 4, EPS 310), and pick the wrong bloody ones. Before you get the pitchforks out, I was of course referring to the amps and speakers Arthur has at the factory...:rolleyes:
Quick question- I'm getting a lot of static, to the point where the mat comes away with the record. At the moment there is no mains earth on the mains cable to the TT. Is there any mileage in connecting a mains earth and running a wire to one of the spindle bolts to help this?
I think this has to do with the humidity in the room, type of mat and possibly the material of clothes and carpet rather than stray electricity that needs grounding. Are you using a felt mat?
Indeed - when's the ETP one coming my way for assessment (as discussed), daftee? It would be good to know if Mike's shipped it to you yet, or what? :)
Marco.
yes its on the way chief but un-trackable as that keeps costs down.....
let's hope someone from UK customs is not an audiophile and sees it :lol:
Quick question- I'm getting a lot of static, to the point where the mat comes away with the record. At the moment there is no mains earth on the mains cable to the TT. Is there any mileage in connecting a mains earth and running a wire to one of the spindle bolts to help this?
is it a felt mate? rubber would be better
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 11:17
I think this has to do with the humidity in the room, type of mat and possibly the material of clothes and carpet rather than stray electricity that needs grounding. Are you using a felt mat?
I have wood flooring, and the mat is a cork/rubber composite I believe.
I have wood flooring, and the mat is a cork/rubber composite I believe.
I had a similar issue a few months ago in one of my listening rooms so I bought some de-humidifier boxes and that has solved it.
The ones that absorb moisture in the air with small crystals
I think this has to do with the humidity in the room, type of mat and possibly the material of clothes and carpet rather than stray electricity that needs grounding.
Ali, what have I told you before about prancing around in those Spandex tights? :D
Marco.
I have wood flooring, and the mat is a cork/rubber composite I believe.
Maybe you need to ditch the nylon shell suit then ;)
I also use a cork/rubber mat and I rarely get a static issue but it does occasionally happen which is why I think it is environmental. Never had the mat lift off with the record though, although that used to happen sometimes with the felt mat I used to use.
I had a similar issue a few months ago in one of my listening rooms so I bought some de-humidifier boxes and that has solved it.
The ones that absorb moisture in the air with small crystals
I would have though that a low humidity environment would be likely to increase static rather than decrease it? Hence why I always got electrocuted pressing the button for the lift when in Las Vegas. Very dry there.
Oldpinkman
16-11-2013, 11:33
Yup. Central heating dries the air and will increase static. You can buy gizmos which hook over radiators with a water trough which humidifies. Arthur was talking on tuesday of a gadget he has planned for dealing with static. I put a wet sponge in a dish:)
Yup. Central heating dries the air and will increase static. You can buy gizmos which hook over radiators with a water trough which humidifies. Arthur was talking on tuesday of a gadget he has planned for dealing with static. I put a wet sponge in a dish:)
no static in my dry room for some strange reason even without using the milty zerostat gun which I have
Ali, what have I told you before about prancing around in those Spandex tights? :D
Marco.
and his trade mark leather waistcoat! :)
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 11:46
Ali, what have I told you before about prancing around in those Spandex tights? :D
Marco.
Must be the nylon tutu..
These are all brand new records if that makes a difference?
Must be the nylon tutu..
These are all brand new records if that makes a difference?
surely the 401 need an earth mains connection I would say?
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 12:28
Aye, I guess a previous owner had a hum problem as it's disconnected in the plug too.
These are all brand new records if that makes a difference?
Yup... Are you still using the cheap and nasty paper sleeves, which automatically come with most new records? If so that's your problem. They're a pure bugger for causing static, and also scratch your records every time you pull them in and out...!
There are two solutions:
1) Buy some quality anti-static record sleeves from Mr Brooks, and replace all cheap and nasty sleeves with those. Invest in a Milty anti-static gun and use it along with the former.
2) [Even more effective] Buy a professional record cleaner, which not only thoroughly cleans all of your records (yes, even new ones need cleaning) but also removes all static from new records, during the cleaning process. Then pop all cleaned records into a nice fresh anti-static record bag, and worry not again about static.
Job done :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 12:51
Marco, yup, still in the original sleeves, though I have bought some Mobile Fidelity sleeves. I was going to buy a cleaner and put the into the new sleeves once they had been cleaned.
I'll try using some of the MF sleeves in the meantime.
No worries, dude.
Once you've 'de-staticised' them, Ali, with the use of a Milty anti-static gun (dunno if David sells them or not), but here's another link anyway: http://www.hifigear.co.uk/milty-zerostat-3-anti-static-gun.html (those are very effective and worth having), and/or run your records through an RCM, popping them inside MF bags after that process, should all but eliminate the problem :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-11-2013, 13:05
Ok, thanks mate.
Canetoad
16-11-2013, 14:40
Ali,
Sent you a PM. :eyebrows:
yes its on the way chief but un-trackable as that keeps costs down.....
let's hope someone from UK customs is not an audiophile and sees it :lol:
Lol - indeed. Cheers for the update! :)
Marco.
I was wondering if a Zerostat gun worked, or if was just more snake oil.
As it comes recommended, I guess it does.
Is it effective with anti-stat sleeves only, or do you really need the RCM?
I have to balance my upgrades against the house renovation, so I need to chose carefully.
New records always (maybe not always but most of the time) have a lot of static on them but it should disperse when you handle it for the first (or second) time. In my experience there is no need for static discharge products of any kind (guns, brushes etc.).
What is true is that the dryer the atmosphere is the more likely static is - not the other way round.
The Grand Wazoo
17-11-2013, 11:43
I was wondering if a Zerostat gun worked, or if was just more snake oil.
As it comes recommended, I guess it does.
They do work. However, like Mark, I've not had problems with static in my situation - well, not for many years.
Is it effective with anti-stat sleeves only, or do you really need the RCM?
I have to balance my upgrades against the house renovation, so I need to chose carefully.
How many records do you own?
A machine is one of the best investments you can make if your discs number more than a couple of hundred. Not only will they sound better but your cartridge will last a lot longer.
Ali Tait
17-11-2013, 11:46
How often d folk with a machine clean their records?
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