View Full Version : Alternative platters ?
How often d folk with a machine clean their records?
I find you only need to do them the once. It's the crud buried in the groove that needs cleaning out, not the traces of visible dust on the surface. Once the grooves are clean and it goes back in a new inner sleeve then it will stay clean unless you spill something on it.
Just once, if you clean them effectively and put them into a good anti-static inner sleeve like the Nagaoka ones. Your LPs will never show any static again.
Ali Tait
17-11-2013, 12:48
Cool, thanks chaps.
ETP Platter up-date for all concerned
The platters are being sent out in the order a request for one was received as that seems the fairest way
Martin T was first
Marco was second
Neil was 3rd (I actually asked Neil if he wanted one for review after the first 2 had asked)
One of my customers was 4th
Martins has arrived and sent, Marcos will be here this week (based on the length of time the previous platter took) and hopefully Neils as well, all platters are being shipped individually at my request for weight purposes (freight costs are very high above 3kg per parcel)
If anyone else would like a platter please pm me and I will add to the current order I have placed.
Thanks, David. Looking forward to trying it out.
Excellent, Dav-eed! I look forward to having a play and to reading about Martin's impressions of the platter :)
Marco.
Having spent 20+ years selling engineering plastics (still in it now) I have a gut feeling the ETP platter will perform exceedingly well due to the material Mike has chosen.
My first thoughts on the Mike New ETP platter here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29146-The-Mike-New-ETP-Platter&p=501732#post501732).
Oldpinkman
19-11-2013, 15:18
My first thoughts on the Mike New ETP platter here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29146-The-Mike-New-ETP-Platter&p=501732#post501732).
Although we have been discussing the platters on your other thread, I really thought I should move it back here - since strokes of genius should really be about the ETP you are reviewing rather than a discussion of the more general issues concerning Technics platters and in particular whether mass or moment of inertia are relevant.
I am slightly frustrated since I would like to make comments about how the 2 platter technologies sound, rather than just the masses - but promised Arthur I would say nothing about strata v acrylic until Neil (Dalek Supreme) has had a chance to publish whatever he wanted to say. So I'm not saying anything about how I think they sound. (And I haven't yet made up my mind about the Pink Triangle mods definitively)
Aside from the issue about the motor, its servo's and the load placed on them, and the fact that Funk 2 prototype and Mike New's ETP weigh the same (2.2Kg and 2.3Kg) and if I could do the sums to work out the distribution of mass I am sure would have near identical rotational momentum, and so "warble" should be the same for both, you seem to believe (from your comments to Arthur) that the "strata" is glass. Clearly you didn't rap it with your knuckles. Strata is glass like ETP is plastic and aerolam is aluminium. I am led to believe there is more to it than what the component materials are when it comes to modern composite material structures. And which properties of those structures are important in providing a support for a cartridge (or material for an arm tube). Certainly if you rap the materials hung from a wire with your knuckles even a non-tech like me can identify how different they are.
But back on topic, regarding mass and rotational momentum, in the absence of some hard facts or measurements to show that ETP and Funk 2 (strata) are different in that regard, I am going to accept the obvious conclusion that they are not (they appear near identical) and ignore warble in any auditioning I do. I realise it is my limitation that I can't hear cable burn-in or UBER mains cables, but I think the reason I can't hear warble on a 2.2Kg Technics platter is because there is none!
:cool:
It's your conclusion, Richard, and you have every right to it! By all means ignore the warble for now and just do some listening (it may be solely the sensor cog that was causing my problems, in which case I'm happy to retract all notion that mass/momentum was responsible). As for the material the Strata is made from, I only knew what I knew and it felt like glass.
This has been an interesting lesson about forums and product launches.
Regrettably it is one that leaves me concluding that I prefer not to participate further for whilst I have appreciated the goodwill intended in offering assistance and evaluations, ultimately the process has been highly unsatisfactory - False expertise of some participants and sole reliance on their subjective opinions produces a meaningless fog.
This whole silly platter issue kicked off with assumptions about what mass would do to the Technics motor, and resulted in “hearing” effects which were based on expectations of how heavy something might be. The results contradict yet it appears we have two platters which are effectively identical in that regard; surely the simple use of some common or garden kitchen scales would have shown up and avoided the absurdity of the false assumptions regarding mass and inertia?
When developing new product, a methodology has to be invoked, else it is based merely on smoke and mirrors.
But we couldn’t even get to that point!
To me, then, it is utterly pointless even to attempt going further and offering actual…reliable…consistent and repeatable measurements.
Some feedback has been helpful - the tendency to follow a “single supplier” upgrade route is evident.
Funk’s new mk II platter, featuring our Strata technology (well, it does work) remains but will, however, be a custom fit to our new Sapphire thrust bearing now accordingly re-engineered.
Available from our usual outlets expect a special combined package price. See website for availability and details.
As for the arm, the outstanding results we have achieved with FXR on 1200/1210s, (evaluated blind as ever) means we are dropping modding Technics arms.
Custom carbon fibre armplates will be available for all arms.
I am sorry Richard that you have been caught in the middle of all this – I trust it won’t spoil your enjoyment of the forum (and no I haven’t forgotten about the Integral repair!!)
Arthur
This whole silly platter issue kicked off with assumptions about what mass would do to the Technics motor, and resulted in “hearing” effects which were based on expectations of how heavy something might be. The results contradict yet it appears we have two platters which are effectively identical in that regard; surely the simple use of some common or garden kitchen scales would have shown up and avoided the absurdity of the false assumptions regarding mass and inertia?
When developing new product, a methodology has to be invoked, else it is based merely on smoke and mirrors.
But we couldn’t even get to that point!
To me, then, it is utterly pointless even to attempt going further and offering actual…reliable…consistent and repeatable measurements.
This demands a response. I don't know who you are directing this at, Arthur, but seeing as you are making accusations at members who evaluated your Strata platter, and I only know of two people who were doing so - one being myself - I am afraid I will have to reveal things that I was not going to speak of in open forum. So lets get some facts out there:
There was no 'assumptions about what mass would do' until after listening evaluations. I was certainly expecting great things but, out of the box, the platter didn't work. The other person who received a platter for evaluation also couldn't get it to work. Knowing this already, you reworked mine before sending it to me in order to ensure proper clearance of the bearing (which was indeed ok on mine). However, my one came with the sensor cog out of true, such that the motor made lots of squeaky noises on start-up and speed regulation was not good. I found that the cog was a tight fit but movable so I adjusted it myself on the basis that I would try to get the thing working rather than just return it to you. I adjusted it as best I could and was never totally happy with speed regulation (the motor still made some odd noises), although it was enough for me to form an opinion of the Strata's sound. I gave you that feedback. I postulated at the time that perhaps it was the weight of the platter and some remaining misalignment of the cog that caused the speed issues. In hindsight, it's more likely to have been the cog. I wrote all this to you, Arthur, and we reached no firm conclusion. I have the full PM and referred to it again to ensure that I'm being fair. You simply asked me to pack the platter up as you needed it back urgently. I did so immediately, but it remains in my office awaiting collection.
My methodology involves listening first and then trying to postulate reasons for what I'm hearing. I am an electronics engineer and not completely clueless when it comes to hi-fi components. I have given feedback on such a basis to several vendors here on AoS, and that feedback has been welcomed and sometimes even used in order to improve the products.
So, rather than now criticise the members that YOU asked to evaluate your product by denigrating their reputation, perhaps you need to recognise, as we did, the essential nature of pre-production items. You should also recognise that we kept quiet about the issues as we knew these were not final production samples. We were doing you a favour and, because you didn't like the feedback we gave you, you retaliated in a manner not becoming. What a pity.
(it may be solely the sensor cog that was causing my problems,
One of the reasons I have resisted purchasing a Funk or MN platter is that they do not come with the motor magnet/sensor and I am ***t scared of getting it wrong. I came across a SL1210 setup article some time ago which clearly explained how critical this setup is to correct and stable motor speed. The edge of the "cog" needs to be exactly in line with the outer edge of the hole in the under surface of the platter. My Vantage platter did not need to alter the existing magnet/sensor setup at all. Maybe I'm just a big scaredy cat girl but reading these posts on unstable rotation and noises is a real put off.
Steve
One of the reasons I have resisted purchasing a Funk or MN platter is that they do not come with the motor magnet/sensor and I am ***t scared of getting it wrong. I came across a SL1210 setup article some time ago which clearly explained how critical this setup is to correct and stable motor speed. The edge of the "cog" needs to be exactly in line with the outer edge of the hole in the under surface of the platter. My Vantage platter did not need to alter the existing magnet/sensor setup at all. Maybe I'm just a big scaredy cat girl but reading these posts on unstable rotation and noises is a real put off.
Steve
If Martin can install it (etp platter) I am sure you (or anyone) can :)
If Martin can install it (etp platter) I am sure you (or anyone) can :)
Maybe I misread the post but i thought it was Martin who was having "issues" with rotation stability due to the sensor position?
"I adjusted it as best I could and was never totally happy with speed regulation (the motor still made some odd noises)"
I'm sure Martin will clarify.
Steve
I think you're getting your platters mixed up, Steve. The ETP platter's sensor cog is fine. You will, however, have to swap the magnet assembly over as with all aftermarket platters for the Technics. It's an easy job and you are fine aligning the trailing edge of the cog with the exact centre of the red-dot hole by eye. There is only a very small amount of play so you can't get it greatly wrong.
I think you're getting your platters mixed up, Steve. The ETP platter's sensor cog is fine. You will, however, have to swap the magnet assembly over as with all aftermarket platters for the Technics. It's an easy job and you are fine aligning the trailing edge of the cog with the exact centre of the red-dot hole by eye. There is only a very small amount of play so you can't get it greatly wrong.
Ah ha! Many thanks for clarification Martin. That puts a different spin on it especially as I have an MN bearing.
Steve
That puts a different spin on it
I hope not!!
WOStantonCS100
07-12-2013, 21:41
I've been very seriously thrown for a loop by this thread, baffled even at times. However, this still seems to be the definitive place to get info and try to figure out what's what with modded Techies; so, I'm going to "take my pills" sort through what's been said and try to make a decision on which way to go next.
If the ETP platter is the winner then hooray for me as I believe, in posts, I've drooled over the one with the brass inserts ever since Mike posted it. But, maybe the only way I can answer my own questions is to somehow try both the aluminum and ETP in which case you guys really haven't helped me at all. :lol:
In response to Al’s original question, this is my take on alternative platters.
It’s the platter off a tatty ProJect RPM 9 I purchased cheap off flea bay.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Platter/Platter_012.jpg
I had a local model maker knock up an adaptor and it fits perfect, it powered up first time and runs smooth.
The only tweak necessary was to give the brake about a quarter of a turn on the adjuster, this platter is 38mm thick Acrylic and weighs 3.5Kg which is approximately twice that of the stock Technics Platter.
There was a bit more to it than that really, see how I did it here: http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Platter_HTML/Platter_Thumbs.html
Well that's the drive principle proven, I had better design a deck to put it in. :eyebrows:
I've been very seriously thrown for a loop by this thread, baffled even at times. However, this still seems to be the definitive place to get info and try to figure out what's what with modded Techies; so, I'm going to "take my pills" sort through what's been said and try to make a decision on which way to go next.
If the ETP platter is the winner then hooray for me as I believe, in posts, I've drooled over the one with the brass inserts ever since Mike posted it. But, maybe the only way I can answer my own questions is to somehow try both the aluminum and ETP in which case you guys really haven't helped me at all. :lol:
If you can hang fire for a week or so I intend posting a DIY platter. I have done it an it really works. The short point is this: Strip the rubber damping from the existing platter and replace it with Dynamat. The resulting platter is as dead as a door-nail. There is a bit more to it and I have been experimenting (I bought 6 platter on e-bay) as to the most efficacious methods. I will put up some instructions and pics, hopefully before X-mas. The Platter will cost a few quid and a liter of elbow-grease.
Mike_New
09-12-2013, 05:53
Folks,
Be warned if you follow the idea of Andrei, whilst you might get away with it, you could more probably finish up with a badly warped or out of centre platter!!!! Secondly it may very well slowly distort over time as the casting moves.
The reason is this: the platter is a very light die cast soft alluminium alloy, to which is bonded the rubber compound.
Now the bearing taper and most probably the top surface of the platter would have been machined after the bonding process in a specially jigged lathe.
If you go ripping out all the supporting bonded rubber from under the surface who knows what the hell will happen to the structure????
In my opinion this is not a very sensible thing to even contemplate!!!!!!
In the early days of my investigating platter improvements, I considered removing the rubber and filling the void with epoxy potting compound,
(no not for plants). But I considered the very thin die casting too fragile to play with in this manner.
Folks,
Be warned if you follow the idea of Andrei, whilst you might get away with it, you could more probably finish up with a badly warped or out of centre platter!!!! Secondly it may very well slowly distort over time as the casting moves.
The reason is this: the platter is a very light die cast soft alluminium alloy, to which is bonded the rubber compound.
Now the bearing taper and most probably the top surface of the platter would have been machined after the bonding process in a specially jigged lathe.
If you go ripping out all the supporting bonded rubber from under the surface who knows what the hell will happen to the structure????
In my opinion this is not a very sensible thing to even contemplate!!!!!!
In the early days of my investigating platter improvements, I considered removing the rubber and filling the void with epoxy potting compound,
(no not for plants). But I considered the very thin die casting too fragile to play with in this manner.
Good advice Mike, however Andrei states that he has bought a spare platter to perform the experiment on (6 in fact) therefore if it all goes Pete Tong, he can always refit his original item ;)
The Grand Wazoo
09-12-2013, 09:06
Hi-fi was originally a hobby for DIYers and builders and it's good to see that some people still like to try things out for themselves. Spare platters are cheap enough to make a whole catalogue of mistakes.
Go for it Andrei!
Mike_New
09-12-2013, 09:19
You are absolutely correct if you can find them now, or has no one told you that the Techie is no longer manufactured any more, so platters, circuit boards and other miss parts are no longer freely available and indeed some parts are as scarce as prawn balls.
You are absolutely correct if you can find them now, or has no one told you that the Techie is no longer manufactured any more, so platters, circuit boards and other miss parts are no longer freely available and indeed some parts are as scarce as prawn balls.
They turn up regularly on ebay for reasonable sums Mike...
DarrenHW
09-12-2013, 12:17
Hi-fi was originally a hobby for DIYers and builders and it's good to see that some people still like to try things out for themselves. Spare platters are cheap enough to make a whole catalogue of mistakes.
Go for it Andrei!
+1. I personally can't wait to see what you've come up with Andrei, looking forward to your posts!
+1. I personally can't wait to see what you've come up with Andrei, looking forward to your posts!
x2, would be interesting on your report Andrei.:)
Spectral Morn
09-12-2013, 20:57
In response to Al’s original question, this is my take on alternative platters.
It’s the platter off a tatty ProJect RPM 9 I purchased cheap off flea bay.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Platter/Platter_012.jpg
I had a local model maker knock up an adaptor and it fits perfect, it powered up first time and runs smooth.
The only tweak necessary was to give the brake about a quarter of a turn on the adjuster, this platter is 38mm thick Acrylic and weighs 3.5Kg which is approximately twice that of the stock Technics Platter.
There was a bit more to it than that really, see how I did it here: http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Platter_HTML/Platter_Thumbs.html
Well that's the drive principle proven, I had better design a deck to put it in. :eyebrows:
I am in awe of your skills Ken - wow.
Regards Neil
x2, would be interesting on your report Andrei.:)
With these words of encouragement I will try to get something up this week. As mentioned it works an absolute charm. One of the things that gave me the confidence to replace the wiring on my 1210 was the photos and guidance on this forum - so I am hoping to give something back.
PaulStewart
09-12-2013, 23:16
They turn up regularly on ebay for reasonable sums Mike...
I have never sen prawn balls on fleabay.... sweet and sour sauce yes, but no prawn balls :lol:
I have never sen prawn balls on fleabay.... sweet and sour sauce yes, but no prawn balls :lol:
How remiss of them, I shall post some up forthwith.... :lol:
The Grand Wazoo
10-12-2013, 00:25
You are absolutely correct if you can find them now, or has no one told you that the Techie is no longer manufactured any more, so platters, circuit boards and other miss parts are no longer freely available and indeed some parts are as scarce as prawn balls.
Mike, I could hardly have notched up 15k posts on AoS without noticing a thing or two like the discontinued manufacture of 'that' turntable, now could I?!
Take a look on Ebay mate, & you'll see that the place is bursting with them, and that they regularly sell for between £15 and £40-odd.
WOStantonCS100
10-12-2013, 05:28
...prawn balls.
:lol: We have a winner. :lol:
WOStantonCS100
10-12-2013, 05:31
In response to Al’s original question, this is my take on alternative platters.
It’s the platter off a tatty ProJect RPM 9 I purchased cheap off flea bay.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Platter/Platter_012.jpg
I had a local model maker knock up an adaptor and it fits perfect, it powered up first time and runs smooth.
The only tweak necessary was to give the brake about a quarter of a turn on the adjuster, this platter is 38mm thick Acrylic and weighs 3.5Kg which is approximately twice that of the stock Technics Platter.
There was a bit more to it than that really, see how I did it here: http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Platter_HTML/Platter_Thumbs.html
Well that's the drive principle proven, I had better design a deck to put it in. :eyebrows:
Ever since replinthing one of my SL-1500MK2's, I've wanted to do the same to one of my 1200's based around a Mike New bearing and a Mike New base plate (and probably a Mike New platter). Shoot Mike, why not just make a Mike New plinth?? I know you've got this posting elsewhere on the web; but, I love to follow this as a write up in the DIY section of AOS. I'd follow with interest.
Mike_New
10-12-2013, 06:12
I generated a design for a totally new plinth about 2 years ago I guess, and sugested that we would be looking at probably about $2K at least
but there were no takers but lots of interest.
Could you publish some detail and perhaps a mock-up or set of drawings? There might well be some interest here.
Mike_New
10-12-2013, 08:04
Because of the complexity of the 3 dimensional shape required it would be a task for a 3D NC controlled milling machine.
I could perhaps supply the design model to David B and he could arrange for a prototype, but the problem is who is going to underwrite the cost??
It was my intension that either Alluminium or hard wood could be used.
I just believe that it would not be economical in less than batchs of 10
I would suspect hardwood would be far preferable, in view of how successful ebony is as an armboard.
I do understand the underwriting costs. I wish I had the necessary machine tools and time myself, I would try fabricating one from layers of wood.
Make it out of layers of ply - cut 6mm MDF templates for each layer on a laser cutter and use an inverted router to shape each layer with a guided cutter. I've done similar things many times before. The finished plinth can then be veneered in whatever takes your fancy.
My drive/platter combination will fit a standard Techie plinth, but only after serious modification. It requires a hole in the casting where the bearing mounts, an increase in PCB pillars from 9 to 15mm tall and the creation of a filler piece for the gap around the platter as it measures only 300mm diameter, which is smaller than the Technics. Its easier and preferable to make one from scratch, so I will be producing a new plinth for this combination, but not till the New Year.
My priority is to finish my Girlfriends Techie with modified (carbon) straight arm as her xmas present.
My choice of material for my plinth would be slate, but I don’t have the equipment to work it and to have a custom one made would be very expensive.
I considered birch ply - its easy to work with and is popular for speaker cabinets, but the design criteria is a little different for a plinth.
I considered laying up some laminate myself. If you use thin layers of ply, 6mm or less and glue them with contact adhesive, this creates a flexible boundary between layers. By the time you get to 80/100mm thick you have a material that acts just like the commercial “Rubber Wood” which is made in a similar way. Not to be confused with wood from a rubber tree. It has very good acoustic properties in that it acts as an acoustic barrier transmitting virtually nothing from say motor or bearing to arm.
Then there is my long time favourite – Concrete
I will not use the Techie plinth as part of the construction this time, I'll use a mould to produce one from just concrete.
I read recently where someone used cat litter in the concrete mix, it was some type that was a bit like Pumice Stone. I have seen Pumice used under the feet of components as an isolator. It was reported to reduce the weight and make the mixture more inert when set?
Also heard of rubber granules being added to concrete for the same reason, so a bit of experimentation may be in order.
I will be using my Terminator Linear tracking Arm on the deck. I have been in correspondence with Vic at Trans-Fi Audio and made a few recommendations for very minor changes to the arm, which he has adopted, in particular a change to the mounting bracket which he is trying on a small batch. I have my name down for one when they are ready and can’t detail the arm mounting method on my plinth till I get this, so another reason why I will be delaying its start.
Anyway this is getting off topic.
I've proved the Platter works and I will certainly start a thread for this build when it’s under way. ;)
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