View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up
calinda is a good speaker and similar to my cara. same main driver...not as good a tweeter..the t27. the ls5 cable is interesting and my have to try this with mine to see if i like it better. dunno what the price is though.. still think your lovely akais could benefit from a fettling from paul
Yesterday I swapped out the A30 and KEFs and put in the Linn Lk100 still using the LS 1.5 cable with the Akais.
Interesting how the cable tamed the slightly overblown, blousey nature of this amp compared to the same set=up but with the Chord Odyssey 2 cable. Trying different speakers and different amps with the various cables has given me a bit of an idea as to what is going on.
Firstly the cable - neither the LS1, LS5 or the LS 1.5 really suits the Akai. It would appear that when I got them I was just lucky I was using the Chord cable since that seems to be an ideal match. to them - Likewise the XTZ power amp. None of the other combos come close to this, although I must stress I have not once had a bad sound or a boring one - I have always been able to listen at length without losing interest in the music, so my comments should be interpreted in that light i.e I am being picky.
The LS5 with the KEF Calindas was a revelation - they prefer this cable to the Chord by a mile - quite astonishing how they opened up the bass.
Secondly the amps: Both the Linn and the NVA are slightly uncouth but in different ways. Listening again to The Doors doing Riders on the Storm the Linn is a slightly easier listen, slightly cleaner. But it did not have the same solidity to the image as the NVA, the NVA was more 'real' for want of a better word. Trouble is neither is really satisfactory, neither is up to the level that I want in terms of opening up a 'window on the recording'.
So I have decided to keep the LS5 cable as a second option to the Chord should I decide to change speakers. I'll also keep the LS 1.5 since that was a special and not really fair to return it. The amp and the loaner LS1 I will post back this afternoon.
So I still need an amp to match the Akais. That means either get the XTZ fixed if possible or try something else that will give similar results to the XTZ. Suggestion as to what that might be would be appreciated. I am thinking of something Japanese from the 1970s, maybe a Hitachi or a Yamaha. Has to be very open and very smooth sounding at the same time. What some might term 'boring' since the Akais impart the excitement themselves.
I'm disappointed that this did not work out with the A30 but hey, I tried.
I should also say that NVA have been incredibly patient and helpful through-out the process. Very good customer service indeed.
Valves, my boy, valves... You need some thermionic lurveliness in yer life! :eyebrows:
You heard the results I get at my place, in terms of the 'opening a window onto the recording' thing you love (and I do, too). Perhaps you've been spoiled by what you heard there or at Nebo...? ;)
Trust me [as I know what does what in my system] a large chunk of what you heard, chez-moi, came from the Croft/Copper amp combo - and your Akais, in a similar way to Tannoys, would LOVE valves. When done well, IME, they create musical realism like almost nothing else :)
Therefore, by all means look for something 70s solid-state, amp-wise, as that could be just the ticket, but ignore those glowing bottles at your peril.....
Marco.
The Black Adder
22-06-2015, 13:12
+1 :) Valves is where it's at mon brave. Dig it and you'll be the hippest cat on your block, daddio.
Geoff no prices on those SM70 but they look very expensive?
Marco - I don't have 5 grand to drop on a valve power amp like yours, mate. Most of my hoard is going on the house renovations, which really have to be done. You've been to my place , you know. I've never heard cheap valve amps sound anything but 'meh' or coloured or even quite bad, although their owners seem to love them it is not for me.
In any case I had exactly what I wanted with the P90SA/XTZ combo, no need for glass bottles or mega-money outlay. I just want that sound back.
Anyway slight twist in the story: I have now hooked up the NVA with my Chord Odyssey 2 cable and it would appear to be a different ballgame. As I said above the Akai really don't like the NVA speaker cables - any of them. Need to do a bit more listening.
Martin, why not put a cheeky bid in for the John Wood amp that's soon to be auctioned for charity?
Given how well Anthony says it tested, I'd expect it to be a very good amp - and also one that's likely to go for a song [in comparison to what it would be worth commercially]. If you won it, I could also collect it from Anthony's and bring it round to you.....
Doesn't seem like a half bad plan to me! ;)
Marco.
Sorry, posted that before I read your last post. Sure... However, my last post still stands :)
Marco.
I'll think about that but isn't it an integrated?
calinda is a good speaker and similar to my cara. same main driver...not as good a tweeter..the t27. the ls5 cable is interesting and my have to try this with mine to see if i like it better. dunno what the price is though.. still think your lovely akais could benefit from a fettling from paul
Yep I want to take them down to Paul and let him do a full test and fix the binding posts. Just waiting for my driver to have a free window, it is a bit of a trek.
The LS5 is worth trying especially if you feel the sound is lacking a bit of weight. The Akais don't like it but they are atypical of most speakers.
I'll think about that but isn't it an integrated?
I can't remember. If it is, so what? It *might* be better than any combos of passive (or active) preamps/power amps you try. Some integrated amps, especially valve ones, point-to-point wired with very short signal paths (as is the case with the John Wood), can be stunning!
Or if it is an integrated, I'm sure Anthony could convert it to a power amp only, for not too much dosh, and match it to your NVA passive preamp. In that scenario, it would of course depend how much you got it for. Just throwing some ideas into the mix, mate :)
Marco.
Sure, I appreciate that. I'm not entirely skint just have to watch what I spend before I know how much I'll have left.
At the moment this is sounding very good indeed even though I'm not listening seriously. Quite why the Akai are so fussy about speaker cable I have no idea. Never encountered this before. Technical explanations/hypotheses would be welcome.
Yep I want to take them down to Paul and let him do a full test and fix the binding posts. Just waiting for my driver to have a free window, it is a bit of a trek.
The LS5 is worth trying especially if you feel the sound is lacking a bit of weight. The Akais don't like it but they are atypical of most speakers.
just saw the price...way too expensive for this old man alas.
as i said martin id be getting that amp fixing as it was what you liked
Ali Tait
22-06-2015, 14:37
Geoff no prices on those SM70 but they look very expensive?
Marco - I don't have 5 grand to drop on a valve power amp like yours, mate. Most of my hoard is going on the house renovations, which really have to be done. You've been to my place , you know. I've never heard cheap valve amps sound anything but 'meh' or coloured or even quite bad, although their owners seem to love them it is not for me.
In any case I had exactly what I wanted with the P90SA/XTZ combo, no need for glass bottles or mega-money outlay. I just want that sound back.
Anyway slight twist in the story: I have now hooked up the NVA with my Chord Odyssey 2 cable and it would appear to be a different ballgame. As I said above the Akai really don't like the NVA speaker cables - any of them. Need to do a bit more listening.
About 1000 dollars I think for the SRM Pro. Will second Geoff though, it's a very good amp.
walpurgis
22-06-2015, 15:22
Geoff no prices on those SM70 but they look very expensive?
I believe they are around £1100 imported UK spec new (a bargain). They seem to sell for around £400 on eBay on the rare occasion they crop up. Fabulous little power amp pure Class A and seems to drive anything. I have valves, but with my Tannoys the SM-70 Pro is just superb. I also have the standard SM-70.
http://www.monarchyaudio.com/products.htm
Firebottle
22-06-2015, 16:34
That means either get the XTZ fixed if possible
Martin I'll look it over for you if you like,
also I really think I need to let you hear the ugly duckling SE EL84, lets arrange a visit,
:) Alan
Thanks Alan
Yes I would love to hear the little Dulci thing. I'd also like someone else to have a listen to my system whilst I have the damn thing working properly - before something else goes tits up :) I'm sure some folk must think I make this stuff up as I go along.
let me know when you are free - I'm away for the 4th July weekend, otherwise no plans.
Well a pleasant few evenings this week listening to this set-up. Actually found myself looking forward to getting back from work and firing it up:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/june%20hi-fi%20003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/june%20hi-fi%20003.jpg.html)
Yes I know the pre-amp needs a wipe over but you can't see all those marks it is just the flash.
The white hosepipe like Chord Odyssey2 is back in. It is actually really thin cable but is bi-wire and all runs through the one tube. I'm only using it as single wired, though.
This system isn't the last word in anything and I could still do with sorting out some more bass weight (and depth) but that is the price I am paying for using the Akais in free space. What I am getting is a lovely sweet, clear sound with every detail in the recording just presented out on plate. Clarity and sweetness of tone are my two most important priorities. If I don't have them I don't care how good the bass resolution is I won't be interested in listening.
Had a vinyl sesh Thursday night, sounded good, maybe a bit of splash on cymbals which is more than likely down to my ham-fisted cartridge set-up. not enough to ruin things, though. I'm trying to resist tweaking the TT a bit more, it is not easy! The Firebottle phono stage does deserve a bit better, though.
I don't want to make any more changes for now as I will have to move all the electronics upstairs when the builders come in. I will just move out for a fortnight and live in a travel tavern like Alan Partridge ;) But In the meantime might get the speakers down to Paul at RFC and have him take a look at them and see if they are working optimally. They sound great but you never know.
Long Shot - yes I know I need to clear up but you have to admit it does look like I've been having fun ;) :
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/june%20hi-fi%20002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/june%20hi-fi%20002.jpg.html)
Would the speakers(that look huge in that pic) benefit from being up off the ground a tad Martin? they Look quite low to the ear.
southall-1998
27-06-2015, 20:57
I'm liking the ''cottage industry'' styled room, Martin. :)
S.
Would the speakers(that look huge in that pic) benefit from being up off the ground a tad Martin? they Look quite low to the ear.
That is how they work best, But I do intend to try some low stands - in the form of tins of baked beans. Don't forget I am listening 20 feet away any discrepencies in driver/ear height tend to get ironed out over that distance. I still get a 6' tall soundstage, more on some material. The horn tweeter helps, too.
I'm liking the ''cottage industry'' styled room, Martin. :)
S.
There's no 'styling' at all. It's just a dump. ;) Waiting for the builders to come in so I'm not clearing up now.
No sign of builders happening yet so I had to clear up :(
However in the meantime I had another visit from Alan Firebottle. He brought his new KIN hybrid pre-amp and phono stage over for me to have a listen to:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20003.jpg.html)
Great looking pre-amp with quality knobs and remote control, using a mixture of valves and FETs. He also brought along the 'Dulci' which is a little single ended clas A power amp built from an old mono amp I donated to the cause some time ago (It had been under my bed for 20 years and I was only going to bin it).
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20004.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20004.jpg.html)
Alan had also come round to check out my phono head amp which wasn't working right. This turned out to be a combination of my own stupidity plus the power supply I was using was struggling a bit. With that sorted we had a listen using my NVA passive pre and the Dulci power amp.
This was a fantastic sound, even though I had connected one of the speakers out of phase...It is only 4 watts so even with sensitive speakers big dynamic swings are not on the cards, but otherwise so silky smooth, open, absolutely beautiful and beguiling presentation. So I asked Alan if he would sell it and we were able to come to a deal involving some parts he wanted plus a little cash.
So that's right folks who would have thought it? I have a valve power amp in my system.. It's a bit like switching to Renault after years of driving Fords. It is not intended to be a daily driver, but I had a bit of a sesh last night and well, I don't know, despite its limitations on power it is a bit like musical crack cocaine.
Anyway more of that later, onto the KIN
We compared my Firebotle phono with that in the KIN using the Dulci power amp and a solid state power amp that is a work in progress in that it works but has no case. This is essentially a board from China plus some bits Alan had lying around. Open sounding and not wanting for power, it was not as beguiling as the Dulci but seriously impressive for the small amount of money the parts have cost.
As far as the phono stages go you could hear there was some family resemblance but the KIN really did show up quite a lot more detail and nuances from the vinyl. My vinyl rig is just a stock SL1200 with a fancy cart stuck on it so hardly the best vehicle to test a highly developed phono like this, but the differences were still pretty obvious and the extra detail from the KIN was presented quite clearly, no need to listen out for it. Despite being a DIY project this both looked and sounded like a serious high end pre-amp.
Alan has a reputation for just having to wave a screwdriver in the direction of a broken bit of kit and it will miraculously pick up its bed and walk. He had offered to take a look at my XTZ amp so that was dug out. However with over 40 screws removed from the casing we were still no further to opening the damn thing up (except for getting the top and bottom inspection plates off) so we gave up. Although Alan was able to salvage his reputation ;) by fixing my long defunct Systemdek IIX turntable, en passant as it were.
Thanks again Alan!
wiicrackpot
27-07-2015, 10:19
Is this Alan chap doing a road show?, if so is he heading for Scotland?,
if so i'd like him to wave his screw driver at a valve amp i have in my possession before i plug it in, :)
nothing vintage, just a WAD i bought back form someone who i sold it to,been sat here 2 years doing nowt,
will pay for his work of course.
Congrats on getting your system sounding tops Macca, especially reacquainted with your Dulci,
i like your blog as i connect with your quest on getting 'smart sound' for not a lot of outlay,
also your liking of big speakers (JBL's and the likes..) mirrors mine. :cool:
No sign of builders happening yet so I had to clear up :(
However in the meantime I had another visit from Alan Firebottle. He brought his new KIN hybrid pre-amp and phono stage over for me to have a listen to:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20003.jpg.html)
Great looking pre-amp with quality knobs and remote control, using a mixture of valves and FETs. He also brought along the 'Dulci' which is a little single ended clas A power amp built from an old mono amp I donated to the cause some time ago (It had been under my bed for 20 years and I was only going to bin it).
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20004.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20004.jpg.html)
Alan had also come round to check out my phono head amp which wasn't working right. This turned out to be a combination of my own stupidity plus the power supply I was using was struggling a bit. With that sorted we had a listen using my NVA passive pre and the Dulci power amp.
This was a fantastic sound, even though I had connected one of the speakers out of phase...It is only 4 watts so even with sensitive speakers big dynamic swings are not on the cards, but otherwise so silky smooth, open, absolutely beautiful and beguiling presentation. So I asked Alan if he would sell it and we were able to come to a deal involving some parts he wanted plus a little cash.
So that's right folks who would have thought it? I have a valve power amp in my system.. It's a bit like switching to Renault after years of driving Fords. It is not intended to be a daily driver, but I had a bit of a sesh last night and well, I don't know, despite its limitations on power it is a bit like musical crack cocaine.
Anyway more of that later, onto the KIN
We compared my Firebotle phono with that in the KIN using the Dulci power amp and a solid state power amp that is a work in progress in that it works but has no case. This is essentially a board from China plus some bits Alan had lying around. Open sounding and not wanting for power, it was not as beguiling as the Dulci but seriously impressive for the small amount of money the parts have cost.
As far as the phono stages go you could hear there was some family resemblance but the KIN really did show up quite a lot more detail and nuances from the vinyl. My vinyl rig is just a stock SL1200 with a fancy cart stuck on it so hardly the best vehicle to test a highly developed phono like this, but the differences were still pretty obvious and the extra detail from the KIN was presented quite clearly, no need to listen out for it. Despite being a DIY project this both looked and sounded like a serious high end pre-amp.
Alan has a reputation for just having to wave a screwdriver in the direction of a broken bit of kit and it will miraculously pick up its bed and walk. He had offered to take a look at my XTZ amp so that was dug out. However with over 40 screws removed from the casing we were still no further to opening the damn thing up (except for getting the top and bottom inspection plates off) so we gave up. Although Alan was able to salvage his reputation ;) by fixing my long defunct Systemdek IIX turntable, en passant as it were.
Thanks again Alan!
soinds like good session Martin and getting the old gal back in superb working condition is a result. another plus vote for the kin.
No sign of builders happening yet so I had to clear up :(
However in the meantime I had another visit from Alan Firebottle. He brought his new KIN hybrid pre-amp and phono stage over for me to have a listen to:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20003.jpg.html)
Great looking pre-amp with quality knobs and remote control, using a mixture of valves and FETs. He also brought along the 'Dulci' which is a little single ended clas A power amp built from an old mono amp I donated to the cause some time ago (It had been under my bed for 20 years and I was only going to bin it).
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/valve%20004.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/valve%20004.jpg.html)
Alan had also come round to check out my phono head amp which wasn't working right. This turned out to be a combination of my own stupidity plus the power supply I was using was struggling a bit. With that sorted we had a listen using my NVA passive pre and the Dulci power amp.
This was a fantastic sound, even though I had connected one of the speakers out of phase...It is only 4 watts so even with sensitive speakers big dynamic swings are not on the cards, but otherwise so silky smooth, open, absolutely beautiful and beguiling presentation. So I asked Alan if he would sell it and we were able to come to a deal involving some parts he wanted plus a little cash.
So that's right folks who would have thought it? I have a valve power amp in my system.. It's a bit like switching to Renault after years of driving Fords. It is not intended to be a daily driver, but I had a bit of a sesh last night and well, I don't know, despite its limitations on power it is a bit like musical crack cocaine.
Anyway more of that later, onto the KIN
We compared my Firebotle phono with that in the KIN using the Dulci power amp and a solid state power amp that is a work in progress in that it works but has no case. This is essentially a board from China plus some bits Alan had lying around. Open sounding and not wanting for power, it was not as beguiling as the Dulci but seriously impressive for the small amount of money the parts have cost.
As far as the phono stages go you could hear there was some family resemblance but the KIN really did show up quite a lot more detail and nuances from the vinyl. My vinyl rig is just a stock SL1200 with a fancy cart stuck on it so hardly the best vehicle to test a highly developed phono like this, but the differences were still pretty obvious and the extra detail from the KIN was presented quite clearly, no need to listen out for it. Despite being a DIY project this both looked and sounded like a serious high end pre-amp.
Alan has a reputation for just having to wave a screwdriver in the direction of a broken bit of kit and it will miraculously pick up its bed and walk. He had offered to take a look at my XTZ amp so that was dug out. However with over 40 screws removed from the casing we were still no further to opening the damn thing up (except for getting the top and bottom inspection plates off) so we gave up. Although Alan was able to salvage his reputation ;) by fixing my long defunct Systemdek IIX turntable, en passant as it were.
Thanks again Alan!
Hi Martin, I have heard both bits of Kit you mentioned in my own system.
The little Dulci is a surprise especially considering its output. Nice little amp. The KIN is altogether on another level and as you found reveals an awful lot more from vinyl via the new phono stage than his previous FB phono,s.
Hi James, how are you?
Alan did mention he had got good results with the KIN into a Croft Series 7 so I guess that was in your system.
My speakers are a lot more sensitive then your Spendors so they do give the Dulci a bit more headroom but even so I may have to move the speakers closer to me or me closer to the speakers if I am going to keep it in permanent use.
Firebottle
27-07-2015, 17:10
Have you tried turning it up to see where the sound gets ragged Martin? I think you will be surprised how loud it will be at that point.
It was quite entertaining and informative at yours yesterday, and thanks for the 'parts', I have boxed up the Chinese board so will update the thread soon.
:cool: Alan
Not tried that yet. :)
You should post a picture of the ' parts' :)
walpurgis
27-07-2015, 17:54
That Dulci would probably drive a pair of speaker like Grant's Telefunkens beautifully.
Yes the Akais are pretty sensitive at 96dB but a bit more would help. It is a big room to have to fill.
walpurgis
27-07-2015, 18:02
Maybe you could drive some high impedance headphones with it?
No idea but don't like headphones. Music should be experienced physically, if you possibly can. I appreciate some folk have issues with neighbours and others in their house and so have no option.
Anyway got it jacked up a bit now with the Black Crowes.
Nice!
Sounds like you guys had a good sesh, which should really have been reported in the Community Network! ;)
Anyway, good result, mate. I've said for ages that valves would do the trick in your system, largely because of the Akais, although your passive will also love them. As you know, uncle Marco knows best :eyebrows:
Enjoy!
Marco.
brian2957
27-07-2015, 20:59
As you know, uncle Marco knows best :eyebrows:
Bet you say that to all the boys :lol:
and girls....:)
.....and SHEEP:eek:
Hehehehehe... Oi lurves a nice crevice! :eyebrows:
So, Martin, is the new valve amp going to remain as a permanent fixture? :)
Marco.
Don't know yet. It is so good in terms of tone and timbre it is amazing. The NVA amp does that pretty well but this is in another league.
On the other hand it is a bit 'gentle' - I don't know how else to describe it. I like a control room sound and this is quite far from that. But as I said earlier it is like musical crack cocaine, I can't stop listening to it. I played Oasis: 'What's The Story...' last night, not an audiophile recording and very few systems can get it right - this absolutely nailed it, best I've ever heard.
Don't know yet. It is so good in terms of tone and timbre it is amazing. The NVA amp does that pretty well but this is in another league.
On the other hand it is a bit 'gentle' - I don't know how else to describe it. I like a control room sound and this is quite far from that. But as I said earlier it is like musical crack cocaine, I can't stop listening to it. I played Oasis: 'What's The Story...' last night, not an audiophile recording and very few systems can get it right - this absolutely nailed it, best I've ever heard.
Hi Martin,
I am fine thanks, glad you enjoying valves. They do sound sweet - careful you may become addicted like Firebottle:lol: The little Dulci does run out of puff but not surprising considering its modest ouput. If you want something valvey with a bit more welly may I suggest you try a croft series 7 power amp. This will certainly drive your Akais with a little more balls but with a lovely transparent OTL sound!:)
Hi James
Yes I had a series 7 briefly with the micro basic pre-amp: that was a great combination but it was not the same 'character' as this Dulci. I had it wound up last night to my usual listening levels with Black Crowes and Oasis and it was fine, could not hear it hardening up or anything. The 'gentle' thing I am talking about is something else entirely - probably years of listening to big solid state amps takes some re-adjusting from.
Hi James
Yes I had a series 7 briefly with the micro basic pre-amp: that was a great combination but it was not the same 'character' as this Dulci. I had it wound up last night to my usual listening levels with Black Crowes and Oasis and it was fine, could not hear it hardening up or anything. The 'gentle' thing I am talking about is something else entirely - probably years of listening to big solid state amps takes some re-adjusting from.
Ahh you are probably right. Listening to those harsh transistors is very different from the softer more musical sound of valves.:lol:
LOL well not sure it is that so much, after all the Series 7 has transistors in it too.
I'll need longer with it I think, play a bit more material. I'll see how it does with 'Unknown Pleasures', that usually shows up any colouration in the replay equipment.
I think what's happening just now is that you're hearing the good points of what valves done well sounds like, but with the amp you're using being low-powered and (correct me if I'm wrong) single-ended, there's bound to limitations and some 'rose-tinted' coloration, which as you're finding, can be rather pleasant with some music.
You've had a taster of valves in your system, which proves that you like what they do and that your system suits them. For me, what you need to do now is find a nice, say 30W KT88 push-pull design, that's more neutral with a bit more balls, at the right price, and I think you'll have pretty much nailed it :)
Marco.
orceven an el84 amp would do..only 16 watts but with sensitive speakers and that lovely passive should sound siblime and be plenty powerful
Firebottle
29-07-2015, 09:50
I think going to push-pull will lose the glorious smoothness of the class A.
I don't go with the 'rose-tinted' description (difficult to pin down an exact definition), there is going to be small odd order distortion because it is a pentode being used but that would still be the case with a KT88 push-pull design.
Unless of course the KT88's could be used in triode mode but then you are back down at low power :doh:
:cool: Alan
Hi James
Yes I had a series 7 briefly with the micro basic pre-amp: that was a great combination but it was not the same 'character' as this Dulci. I had it wound up last night to my usual listening levels with Black Crowes and Oasis and it was fine, could not hear it hardening up or anything. The 'gentle' thing I am talking about is something else entirely - probably years of listening to big solid state amps takes some re-adjusting from.
The Series 7 is a MOS-FET power amp with a valve driver stage. It is a bit different to having an output transformer and doesn't sound quite the same as the old croft Series 4S for example. I find the Series 7 fits nicely between the Series 4S on the one hand and the OTL's on the other.
I think going to push-pull will lose the glorious smoothness of the class A.
I don't go with the 'rose-tinted' description (difficult to pin down an exact definition), there is going to be small odd order distortion because it is a pentode being used but that would still be the case with a KT88 push-pull design.
Unless of course the KT88's could be used in triode mode but then you are back down at low power :doh:
:cool: Alan
Hi Alan,
Yes of course, it's all about choosing your compromises. You can have your cake and eat it, though. My Copper amp is Class A (when operating within its design parameters), but push-pull, and it has all the sweetness and smoothness of low-powered SE amps, but with the requisite 'balls' and drive to make music that needs such come alive.
Knowing Martin's sonic proclivities with hi-fi pretty well, I'd say that he would need a dollop of that 'effortless authority', along with the mellifluous sound he's currently enjoying, to be fully satisfied with any valve amp. However, no doubt he'll be along soon to confirm that or not :)
Marco.
Another 5 hours last night - didn't get round to eating until 2245 - oops
Playing 'Unknown Pleasures' it is apparant there is a tiny bit of colouration but it is a tiny amount - this test was passed. I went on from there to AC-DC 'High Voltage' and was sat there thinking 'is this a joke or what?' - the tone on the guitar was just phenomonal. This was not the same 'added tonal colour' as I used to get with the Croft Micro Basic pre-amp I used to have which sort of 'vintaged up' pretty much any recording, a trait I got fed up with after a while.
In terms of volume there is enough power, it is just that 'gentleness' that I am not used to but I think it is a slight loss of impact on transient attack - but I emphasise 'slight'. It is a compromise I can happily live with in order to get the rest of the package which is, quite frankly, awesome. And this is with A £250 quid Pioneer DVD player as the source. Need to get something better in that slot first I think.
Firebottle
29-07-2015, 11:42
I'm really pleased that the Dulci has 'come home' and that you are rather taken with it :)
I do like your insightful descriptions of the overall sound Martin and can relate to the 'slight' loss of impact on transient attack. With 4 or 5 watts then the tips of the transients will run out of headroom.
The design of the driver stage is also helping the 'awesome' sound (too many trips to the States :ner:) as it is very linear, plus it's class A also.
:cool: Alan
Yes, sorry about the Americanisms. Too much telly, that is.
Can you knock me another one up with, say, 20 watts/channel? ;)
Well I thought as much in that the little Dulci does not have enough power for my needs. I can get a decent volume out of it since the speakers are quite large and sensitive but listening 20 feet away, no it just isn't working. I have to strain a bit, really concentrate in order to listen, despite background noise levels where I am being very low. Whack it up and you lose everything that makes the Dulci special.
I could move things around, sit closer, listen near-field. Or get some really sensitive speakers, but would need to be over 100dB, maybe a single driver horn loaded or similar. But I like listening at a distance from the speakers, it is the best way to get that sense of the recording existing as a tangible entity in the space at the far end of the room. Close listening for me just constantly reminds me it is loudspeakers I am hearing, a machine making a sound and that loses the magic.
Put the NVA A30 back in although now fed by a Pioneer DVD 575 which I've not tried with it before. This player has introduced a welcome bit of mid-range clarity, air and space. A step forward from before. Even so I was playing some hefty rock and there were times on some more dynamic material that the A30 sounded a bit strained. And with complex mixes it gets a little fuzzy, losing the separation in the soundstage a bit. With simpler fayre it is really not far of the Dulci for tonal quality and 'wow listen to that' moments. It is in fact bloody good for £340 quid new. If the NVA doesn't really have enough power for me at 30 watts no wonder the Dulci can't quite manage with 4.
I really need to grow up a bit and stop playing loud rock music, maybe that will happen at some point... but I hope not. The thought of being restricted to a life of girl with guitar and Diana Krall....no thanks.
Options now? Get a bigger NVA or try something else I suppose.
One thing I intend to do is I'm going to get another passive pre and make a separate 'late night near-field' system with the Dulci. I have some easy to drive Studio Spares bridge monitors and I think with them on stands in open space about 5' away from the listening position that will work well.
In other news made a big improvement to the bass side of things by getting the sub properly set up. Can't tell you how many subwoofer threads I read but it was a lot. A few times it was recommended firing the sub into the corner to get a more even distribution. Well, I'd tried everything else but blow me down this actually does work with volume about 40% of max and rolling off at 65 Hz I get a bit of extra weight with rock and some decently timed deeper bass with programme that has it. No bone shaking stuff and it is a little soft but the integration is perfect - you would never know a sub was being deployed until it is turned off. If you've been trying and failing to integrate a sub and not tried this then give it a go.
And so we move into the realms of the 'large' loudspeaker with these IMF transmission lines. Proper bottom end on these suckers!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/imf%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/imf%20001.jpg.html)
Make the Akais look like minatures. Totally different sound swapping the forensic/clinical; for - well bass, really and a nice smooth sound being fed by this natty Sony SACD player I got off of Paul 'Doc' Stewart:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/imf%20002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/imf%20002.jpg.html)
My neighbour has one so I knew it was a good 'un, been looking for one for a while.
Still need to fiddle a bit with positioning - mirror image driver layout is a help, that does bug me with the Akais. First impressions are they are quite reminiscent of the Celestion A2 I used to have, but better in the mid and a bit more effortless in the bass. Using the XTZ power amp, since they need a bit of welly as efficiency is quite low. I don't have that much material with serious bass but playing Fun Lovin' Criminals now and bass can only be described as 'satisfyingly deep'. These are not toytown speakers, folks. :)
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 08:30
You'll be after a pair of TLS80s soon then? :D
The bigger the better :)
They are quite crispy in the upper mids, wasn't expecting that. Smooth but sparkly. And they seem to like the free space positioning, bass is not slow or ploddy and no boom at all.
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 08:46
You should hear a pair of the rare ALS40s. Smaller but a really potent bottom end! Tight too.
I'm not sure but I think the only T lines I have heard before was at Scalford - Atkinson or Parkinson or something like that, with KEF and coles drivers. Fed by a Nakamichi Dragon, one of the better sounds at the show, even though they were in a tiny room.
The Black Adder
24-09-2015, 08:58
Don't ever grow up... growing up is for grown ups. lol
Nowt like a bit of Iron Maiden or Monster Magnet at 8am. ;)
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 08:59
I'm not sure but I think the only T lines I have heard before was at Scalford - Atkinson or Parkinson or something like that, with KEF and coles drivers. Fed by a Nakamichi Dragon, one of the better sounds at the show, even though they were in a tiny room.
I bet you it was a pair of the incredibly rare Nightingale NM1s:
http://i60.tinypic.com/1448y93.jpg
Made by the company that became Falcon Electronics.
No it wasn't them. I think they were a kit build from the mid-Seventies.
You know I would hate to think how much a modern pair of speakers to match these IMFs would cost. Several thousand at least, which I could never justify spending. £300 for these things! - it truly is the golden age of hi-fi at the moment. I did really fancy Obscures re-built JBLs but I know from my experience with the Akais (which are not a million miles away from the JBL in design) I couldn't place them for best effect in my room. Looks like they will be going to a good home with Rich B now so all's well that ends well.
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 09:15
You know I would hate to think how much a modern pair of speakers to match these IMFs would cost. Several thousand at least
You only have to look at the cost of the larger PMC transmission line speakers. :eek:
Yep! Five figures. Have you ever heard any?
walpurgis
24-09-2015, 09:24
Yep! Five figures. Have you ever heard any?
Not for years. Good speakers. Not quite to my taste though. The sound has a hint of ATC about it and I wouldn't buy those either.
Looking good Martin...big suckers those:)
They are certainly a change of pace from the Akai. You really get the full ambience of the bottom end coming out.
And so we move into the realms of the 'large' loudspeaker with these IMF transmission lines. Proper bottom end on these suckers!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/imf%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/imf%20001.jpg.html)
Make the Akais look like minatures. Totally different sound swapping the forensic/clinical; for - well bass, really and a nice smooth sound...
Still need to fiddle a bit with positioning - mirror image driver layout is a help, that does bug me with the Akais. First impressions are they are quite reminiscent of the Celestion A2 I used to have, but better in the mid and a bit more effortless in the bass. Using the XTZ power amp, since they need a bit of welly as efficiency is quite low. I don't have that much material with serious bass but playing Fun Lovin' Criminals now and bass can only be described as 'satisfyingly deep'. These are not toytown speakers, folks. :)
Looking good. Nice one, mate. Themz propa! :respect:
Look forward to hearing them next time I'm down - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Firebottle
24-09-2015, 11:42
Bl**dy brilliant Martin. I always thought you needed something bigger to fill that room.
How would you like to be the first to trial my new power amp, now to be known as the Firebottle AIR?
I've got the bits on order at the moment.
:)
They drive the room in the bass much better than the Akais do, from the same position, that's for sure. Still putting them through their paces but I like what I am hearing so far.
I would love to trial your new power amp, Alan. Your OTL was magical in my system so if it is in that ballpark quality wise I will be very interested. :)
You should hear a pair of the rare ALS40s. Smaller but a really potent bottom end! Tight too.
Yes these were the ones my Dad had for many years until the midrange unit disintegrated in front of us… He then 'upgraded' to Linn Nexus Loudspeakers which in all tense and purposes was a stupid school boy error because whilst they were probably a little faster than the IMF's and obviously more modern, overall they were a significant drop in quality… It took until he had upgrade to his current (Kharma Ceramique 3.0 Loudspeakers) before he got the bottom end wallop that you get aplenty with the IMF's.
jandl100
26-09-2015, 06:51
Yep! Five figures. Have you ever heard any?
PMC speakers.
I heard some bigguns at a Show a few years back - Brizzle I think. PMC BB5?. Amazing, and not just in terms of power and bass, but in midrange clarity and lucidity as well. I'm not a fan of the smaller/cheaper PMC at all, totally different sound.
Also heard the newer PMC Twenty 26 more recently. Gowdamn! - I've never heard bass that deep and well textured before. Gut-wobblingly astonishing. Nice speakers overall, too.
Review of the 26 here from WTF - they seemed to like them too: http://www.whathifi.com/pmc/twenty-26/review - but they are just shy of six grand.
In the meantime their non-union Mexican equivilant in the shape of these IMFs continue to impress. I don't think I have owned a better all round speaker. Even fairly thin recordings have this massive bass weight to them - it is not so much the depth as the weight. When I had the Celestion A2s I could sometimes coax 'three dimensional' bass out of them - but these things have it with every recording. Mids and top are almost faultless, too. I think they are going to be staying a while!
Audio Al
26-09-2015, 09:06
Review of the 26 here from WTF - they seemed to like them too: http://www.whathifi.com/pmc/twenty-26/review - but they are just shy of six grand.
In the meantime their non-union Mexican equivilant in the shape of these IMFs continue to impress. I don't think I have owned a better all round speaker. Even fairly thin recordings have this massive bass weight to them - it is not so much the depth as the weight. When I had the Celestion A2s I could sometimes coax 'three dimensional' bass out of them - but these things have it with every recording. Mids and top are almost faultless, too. I think they are going to be staying a while!
I was hoping you would prefer the Akai's then I could buy the beasts :(
Glad you a getting on with them Martin ;)
Cheers Al. I was lucky in that Geoff had a job on not far from where I live, and could drop them off en passant, as it were. Otherwise they would have gone to someone else, possibly you. Worth looking out for another pair or maybe the TLS 80 which must be awesome if their smaller siblings are anything to go by. They don't quite have that electrostatic like clarity of the Akais but they do have proper bass and are a much better match for my room.
Great speakers which are massively under-rated imo. I don't know of anything else at £300 that comes close. BTW, the midrange on mine opened up nicely after a recap using like for like Falcon Acoustics caps. Jerry does a kit for these. Well worth doing if the crossovers are original.
I recall you had some before you got your Tannoys. The x-over I think has been done although Geoff was not 100% about that.
walpurgis
27-09-2015, 18:43
I don't know of anything else at £300 that comes close.
I do. Tannoy System 800 can be picked up for that sort of money on a good day. :)
I recall you had some before you got your Tannoys. The x-over I think has been done although Geoff was not 100% about that.
Might be worth taking a look. The crossover is behind the bass driver. The originals were black elcaps I think. The Falcon cap kit is only around £25 delivered. Another cheap tweak are Russ Andrews focus rings around the tweeter which someone on here suggested I try. I thought they sharpened up the imaging.
I do. Tannoy System 800 can be picked up for that sort of money on a good day. :)
I have never heard a pair but I'd be surprised if a small ported enclosure could compete with the IMFs in terms of scale and heft. I'd imagine though that their strengths lie elsewhere.
Lots of IMF-related fun being had here over the past couple of weeks. Not sure the neighbours are enjoying it so much but no complaints yet ;)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/Oct%202015%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/Oct%202015%20001.jpg.html)
I've been trawling through a good chunk of my collection. These are some of the albums I've had a listen to:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/Oct%202015%20003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/Oct%202015%20003.jpg.html)
I've gone through a fair bit of my vinyl collection, too, although that gets put back on the shelf after listening. Can't be too careful with yer vinyl.
This is a sound like I have never had before so there has been some 'record collection re-discovery' going on. Put on dancey stuff or hip-hop and it is like you are in a club. The only other speakers I have heard that can do proper 'club bass' are the big Tannoys. Bass lacks a little bit of definition, especially leading edge with bass guitars, but that is compared to a notional absolute. It is well within the bounds of acceptability.
Overall the sound is slightly soft, again compared to an absolute, but there is well-executed ring and decay on percussion and acoustic guitar is natural and open with the strings ringing out as they should. Soundstaging is adequate, no walk-around 3D image but I get plenty of depth since there is a fair bit of space behind the speakers, plus the presentation is very much from the plane of the speakers backwards. No vocalist singing perched on your knee here.
This does give the mid and top a bit of a matter-of-fact presentation. Not exciting but it is all there and it grows on you. The manual suggests that the level controls are tweaked up if listening to 'popular music' which will project the mid and top forwards a bit. Not tried that yet but I will.
My TT set up is letting the side down a bit, some slight splash on cymbals. I think my arm is a little tail-up and this may be the issue. I need a thicker mat. I don't really want to chuck more money at the TT but I think I am very close to getting it on a rough par with the CD player (not amazing but no obvious flaws or omissions) so it is going to have to happen.
What I have now is very close to the sound I have been searching for. It just needs that extra push over the cliff; the last 10%. Of course that is the really hard bit.
Nice write-up, Martin, and good to hear you're getting there. Like you say, it's difficult to get that last 10% - worth striving for, though! :)
In terms of a 'thicker' mat, my advice would be not to do that (as thick mats on Techies sound crap), and go for a Resomat (and use it on top of a thin mat underneath, which damps the platter). Not only will the Resomat sound better than almost any other mat, but the little 'dimples' on top will provide the extra height you need, in terms of VTA, to get things spot on :cool:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-TransFi-TURNTABLE-PLATTER-MAT-THE-RESO-MAT-/181604452780
Trust me, it'll be one of the best 30 squids you've spent!
Marco.
Resomat ordered. Let's see if it does the job. :)
Nice one, Martin. Like I said, you need to use it in conjunction with a thin mat, to dampen the platter from ringing (such as the thin Technics rubber one, or even better, a Sounddampedsteel Isoplatmat: http://www.sounddampedsteel.com/hifi.html which is ideal for the job). If you just use the Resomat on its on, the platter will ring like a bell, as the former provides very little damping - it's efficacy lies in other areas.
The 'support' mat also has to be thin, so that when the Resomat goes on top, you don't end up with too much 'height' on the platter (due to the 'dimples' on the mat raising the record up by a significant amount), which will cause the opposite problem, in terms of VTA, that you have now.
Anyway, let us know what you think when the Resomat arrives :cool:
Marco.
I have a thin felt mat, a proper Technics one, so I will use that under the Resomat and see how it goes.
Yup, that should do the trick. Basically anything that stops the platter from ringing. The job of the support mat isn't really to sound good - that's what the decoupling effect of the Resomat is for :)
If you like what the Resomat does, then I can say with some certainty that investing in an Isoplatmat (for use underneath) would up the game even further. Isoplatmat + Resomat, IME, is one of the best mat solutions available for the Techy. Only the Nagaoka glass mat beats it. Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Got one of them out in shed i used on my srm. It was a good mat.
What, an Isoplatmat? If so, maybe offer it to Martin, if he likes what the Resomat does? :)
Marco.
What, an Isoplatmat? If so, maybe offer it to Martin, if he likes what the Resomat does? :)
Marco.
No a resomat. Its too big for a techie deck though i think. The one with the little spikes that the record sits on. Using an achromat now. Dunno if its better but it looks cool in canary yellow
walpurgis
10-10-2015, 10:48
Unlike me to make this recommendation Martin, but why not try (borrow?) a Denon DL-103 with a good SUT? It'll work fine in the Techie and has one of the tightest bottom end deliveries around (next to a Decca). It's quite forgiving at the top and has a decent MC midrange character too. I've used one with transmission line speakers and it suits them.
Unlike me to make this recommendation Martin, but why not try (borrow?) a Denon DL-103 with a good SUT? It'll work fine in the Techie and has one of the tightest bottom end deliveries around (next to a Decca). It's quite forgiving at the top and has a decent MC midrange character too. I've used one with transmission line speakers and it suits them.
Hmmm... If I went back to MC then I would probably get that Denon Marco has that we heard at the last NEBO rather than a 103. I'm pretty happy with the Nag, though.
Yes these were the ones my Dad had for many years until the midrange unit disintegrated in front of us… He then 'upgraded' to Linn Nexus Loudspeakers which in all tense and purposes was a stupid school boy error because whilst they were probably a little faster than the IMF's and obviously more modern, overall they were a significant drop in quality… It took until he had upgrade to his current (Kharma Ceramique 3.0 Loudspeakers) before he got the bottom end wallop that you get aplenty with the IMF's.
Nice thing is that a replacement mid driver can now be got from Falcon Acoustics. The ASL40 was a fruitier, fuller balance as I remember and an uber-taut amp like the Crown 'D' series of the time was one of the very few amps able to bring the best out in them I recall. So easy for the mid-bass to swamp the rather fine midband.
Those TSL50's look huge by today's standards. I remember how tiny they looked in the company of the TSL80 and pro/Reference models we had alongside them. I'd love a stab at them when/if they ever come up for sale, but I fear that even these would be too big for my room :( Tell you summat though, that mid driver is a good 'un and the original Compacts I now use daily are superb now they've had some good use to get them back in fettle. So easy to hear through..
Yup, that should do the trick. Basically anything that stops the platter from ringing. The job of the support mat isn't really to sound good - that's what the decoupling effect of the Resomat is for :)
If you like what the Resomat does, then I can say with some certainty that investing in an Isoplatmat (for use underneath) would up the game even further. Isoplatmat + Resomat, IME, is one of the best mat solutions available for the Techy. Only the Nagaoka glass mat beats it. Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Would a thin cork mat not work too - much cheaper as well?
Cheers Al. I was lucky in that Geoff had a job on not far from where I live, and could drop them off en passant, as it were. Otherwise they would have gone to someone else, possibly you. Worth looking out for another pair or maybe the TLS 80 which must be awesome if their smaller siblings are anything to go by. They don't quite have that electrostatic like clarity of the Akais but they do have proper bass and are a much better match for my room.
TLS80's were delightful, especially the mk2's which had a tighter bass. use all from this era with mid control at + and tweeter one (if present) at - for best results, especially on vinyl sources. I'd love to hear the 80's on CD, as they always sounded better on the copy-master tapes we used to have at KJ.. They sort of got replaced by the B&W801 and KEF R105, which were both the latest flavour of the month before the Isobarik sort of (badly) re-defined the early 80's for UK dealers. Not sure that was a good thing now, looking back :(
One thing though - I'm told that some of the IMF's with foam linings *may* need to have this replaced. I haven't looked myself, so can only pass this on - you'd soon know as crumbled bits would be coming out of the port holes.. The Compacts have fibre-glass and are fine... Any electrolytic caps could be checked as well if a strip-down is ever needed.
Would a thin cork mat not work too - much cheaper as well?
Sure it could, if funds were tight. However, having used both, I can say that the Isoplatmat is more effective in that role. I'm a great believer in doing the job once, properly, and then putting it to bed.
The other option tends to feed the 'what if?' demon, and so you end up spending more money in the long run, initially using something inferior, and eventually replacing it for what would've done the job best in the first place! :)
Marco.
walpurgis
10-10-2015, 15:26
The ASL40 was a fruitier, fuller balance as I remember and an uber-taut amp like the Crown 'D' series of the time was one of the very few amps able to bring the best out in them I recall.
The ALS40 was great fun and had a ridiculous amount of 'slam'. The bass presentation reminded me a bit of the original Bose 901 in being very dry and tight, but not in an NS-1000 way. The Linn Sara had this to a lesser extent too. The TLS50 was more refined than the ALS40 though in my recollection.
Ali Tait
10-10-2015, 21:13
No a resomat. Its too big for a techie deck though i think. The one with the little spikes that the record sits on. Using an achromat now. Dunno if its better but it looks cool in canary yellow
They do one in the correct size for the techie and 401.
So the Firebottle AIR hybrid power amp arrived yesterday - serial number 001 - Needless to say I wasted no time in plumbing it in.
Firstly a bit of pre-amble. I have for the past month been using some IMF TLS50 and an XTZ power amp. This has required quite an adjustment since the IMFs are very different from the Akai Speakers previously in place. Fabulous bass response, very polite and smooth overall. If you have ever heard a fancy B&O system from the late '70s / early '80s then you will know the sort of sound I have been getting. Very pleasant, very laid back, good bass, sparkly top but lacking excitement except for the overall physical presentation. Pipe and slippers pretty much sums it up. Great if you want some relaxing background music but I found my attention wandering as the mid range is just so bland. Not a lack of separation but a lack of realism - for example great saxophone breaks which should be captivating are just perfunctory.
I was in two minds as to whether this was a trait of the loudspeaker, or the amp, or a combination of both.
So with the Firebottle AIR in place and warmed up for a few minutes I kicked off with Donald Fagan's Kamakiriad, the last album I listened to with the XTZ in place. Nothing else in the system was changed. Source was CD. I always use CD for testing kit - more neutral, less variables.
The previous night I had snoozed my way through this album. It is perfectly played 'lounge style' jazz rock and would not interest a lot of people on any system I suspect, but it is a favourite of mine.
Two things were apparent almost immediately - firstly the AIR does not have the same grip on the bass as the XTZ did. Not a massive difference but there was noticeably less control and 'heft' for want of a better word. Secondly the mid and top had opened right up compared to the XTZ. Much better resolution of the various instruments, trumpets and sax were much more real sounding - and this kept my attention on the music, I did not find myself daydreaming off only to re-focus on the music after several tracks had gone by un-noticed as I had the previous night.
To see if this was a consistent trait I had a listen to Dire Straits 'Live at the BBC'. In the past with other kit I have had this sounding like a live feed from the desk, very immediate and exciting - on the XTZ/IMF combo it was a snoozefest. But with the AIR/IMF combo it sounded quite frighteningly 'live'. This was impressive. A pal then dropped around unexpectedly for an hour or so, so the system was relegated to background music whilst we talked. I was playing Foo Fighters 'Nothing Left to Lose' which is a workmanlike digital recording, quite heavy rock if you don't know. Even at quite low volumes it was enough to distract me from the conversation on a couple of occasions.
After he left I put on Steely Dan's 'Everything Must Go' and whacked the volume up a bit. This album sounded totally killer - much better than Kamakiriad had some hours earlier. There is a lot of bass energy on this album, not so deep but full and warm. Again I noticed it was a little leaner with the AIR compared to the XTZ but the overall balance of the sound was more natural with lovely detail and expression in the mid and top. Indeed the very top was superb, the XTZ sounding a bit 'one note' in comparison (something I had previously been certain was the speaker's fault).
Indeed the 'Dan was so good I decided to just go nuclear and hang out with Frank and the Boys at the Sands Hotel And Casino. IMO one of the best ever analogue live recordings and the best of Sinatra's later period live performances. If a set-up can't put you right there with this record then it has a problem. This really showed off what the AIR can do - shockingly clear on the vocals, the best I have heard I think. And the tone of the various instruments in the orchestra - superlative, captivatingly good. On the more sparsely accompanied tracks there was that 'in the room' quality to Sinatra's voice.
Downsides? Well I am not too sure about this but I'll say it anyway, I did on occasion detect a sort of distortion artefact. Noticeable on the piano on 'One More For The Road' and occasionally on Sinatra's voice making him a little huskier than I am used to. This could be on the recording and the AIR is transparent enough to show it but I thought it was maybe there occasionally on the other albums. It is the tiniest thing, though. I'd be interested in Alan's thoughts on that.
I've had a fair few power amps through the system recently and this one has impressed me the most by a fair margin. In combo with the IMF speakers it is bordering on exactly the sound I want, the only caveats being the bass grip and control and that *possible* distortion artefact. I am considering asking Alan if he can knock me one up with a bigger power supply to give a bit more bass control and with an orange LED replacing the white one. At least he didn't use blue this time ;)
I heard a very early version of the AIR Martin and it is a superb amp for the money but I believe the later version you have is even better.
I will be comparing the AIR against my Croft 7 at Christmas to see if Alan's suggestion that it is a better amp can be verified:)
I think I am supposed to hand it over to you at NEBO - or are you not going ?
Interesting feedback on the AIR Martin.
I am not sure how much of a bigger power supply Alan can fit, as there is not much room in the case if my memory is correct (Alan took the top off at Gordons place).
My thoughts about the AIR were similar, hence me ordering one. It's a cracking amp for the money - but I believe that the current price published is only a special introductory offer.
I think I am supposed to hand it over to you at NEBO - or are you not going ?
Hi Martin,
I will be at NEBO.
I'll say this one more time. Old larger IMF's DEMAND an amp with a high damping factor to help sort the bass out. It's a compromise in the design. Jerry was going to try a Crown D-60 and supposedly bought one, but he's never mentioned it since so I suspect he didn't like it. Obviously I don't know the 'Air' at all, but I don't think a Croft would be particularly engaging with the IMF's either in all honesty. My ancient baby IMF's have far less bass and unlike the Super Compact, a totally different bass driver, so I can't speak from my recent experiences, apart from praising the midrange from that mid driver our speakers share.
I'm only banging on here (apologies), but I remember two speakers (one was a medium size IMF, the other could have been an AR sealed type, I cannot remember for sure) where the bass quality and quantity of each could be swapped with an amp change - I seem to remember comparing a Radford HD250 with the Crown IC150/D-60 I think. Mid 70's IMF transmission lines required the amp to do all the bass control as they had little of their own until the more tightly damped mk2's came along.
Just to say that Crown D-75's do come up from time to time (NOT the 75A please, see the Ken Rockwell review) for around a ton. Must be worth a punt to see if I'm right and then pass on with no loss if I'm not?
Lastly, if the TLS50's have a mid control on the back, run it in '+' position...
walpurgis
31-10-2015, 18:09
I suspect this might do the job.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HARMAN-KARDON-CITATION-22-CITATION-21-HI-FI-POWER-AND-PREAMP-/131622899839?hash=item1ea556107f:g:GlIAAOSwHnFVwja 3
Or this. If Jerry's still got it.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?38177-FS-Harman-Kardon-Citation-12-power-amp&highlight=Citation
Interesting feedback on the AIR Martin.
I am not sure how much of a bigger power supply Alan can fit, as there is not much room in the case if my memory is correct (Alan took the top off at Gordons place).
.
Build it into a bigger case would seem the simple answer. :)
I'll say this one more time. Old larger IMF's DEMAND an amp with a high damping factor to help sort the bass out. It's a compromise in the design. Jerry was going to try a Crown D-60 and supposedly bought one, but he's never mentioned it since so I suspect he didn't like it. Obviously I don't know the 'Air' at all, but I don't think a Croft would be particularly engaging with the IMF's either in all honesty. My ancient baby IMF's have far less bass and unlike the Super Compact, a totally different bass driver, so I can't speak from my recent experiences, apart from praising the midrange from that mid driver our speakers share.
I'm only banging on here (apologies), but I remember two speakers (one was a medium size IMF, the other could have been an AR sealed type, I cannot remember for sure) where the bass quality and quantity of each could be swapped with an amp change - I seem to remember comparing a Radford HD250 with the Crown IC150/D-60 I think. Mid 70's IMF transmission lines required the amp to do all the bass control as they had little of their own until the more tightly damped mk2's came along.
Just to say that Crown D-75's do come up from time to time (NOT the 75A please, see the Ken Rockwell review) for around a ton. Must be worth a punt to see if I'm right and then pass on with no loss if I'm not?
Lastly, if the TLS50's have a mid control on the back, run it in '+' position...
It was fine in the bass just not quite as awesome as with the XTZ. As far as damping factor goes my understanding is once you get past 20 or so it makes no odds.
I've tried both mid and top in the plus positions, preferred them flat in both cases.
Build it into a bigger case would seem the simple answer. :)
Separate psu would seem to be the answer; ie a 2 boxer
Or that. I'll have to speak to Alan and see what he can do.
To get the flattest response from these TLS's, the mid is usually + and the top (not always fitted in later models) is set to '-' Personal taste and room obviously...
We had the Citation 12 power and pre at the time and it was very good - slightly more 'mellow' than our references I recall - and not in a bad way, just 'different.'
Where damping factor is concerned, loads of conflicting opinions about it which have swung with the decades I think. I was dealt with in a very patronising manner by Alan Shaw (Harbeth) a year or two back for mentioning amp damping on his hallowed website, he stating an article by Douglas Self dismissing the whole concept. What happens now? he's finally discovered that a high amp output impedance (low damping factor) has a significant effect on the way a speaker crossover behaves and is refining his crossovers model by model to be more benign than they used to be, including halving the inline resistance of the 40.2 crossover to 0.65 ohms or so.
Anyway, I'll crawl back under my stone now. You can NEVER beat a large power supply :lol:
Firebottle
01-11-2015, 06:37
I heard a very early version of the AIR Martin and it is a superb amp for the money but I believe the later version you have is even better.
The amp you heard James was the cheap Chinese L20 board with far less air/clarity than your Croft 7. The AIR is totally different.
:)
Had a mate round last night, he is a pro musician. Played an album he plays on and also a Mastadon album he brought with him. He was mucho impressed - and he is not easily impressed. With his album he reckoned the sound was very similar to that in the studio, except the bass was a bit softer - 'fluffier' was his exact word.
I was wondering if he would spot the distortion artifact but it failed to materialise.
However after he was gone I was playing some Steely Dan (Katy Lied) and there it was again. it seems most noticable on 'Dan and similar material - Bozz Scaggs for example.
Weird, but gut instinct/experience tells me it might be the interconnect 'twixt pre and power amp. I will test this tonight by swapping in a different one. If that doesn't work then I'll have to swap in some other speakers.
Sounds like a x over polnt maybe?
That is what Alan says but I'm not convinced. I don't think it is the AIR amp either, not intrinsically, anyway, since this is a noticeable issue and would therefore have shown up before. I think it does not like the SSC interconnect, for some reason. I may be wrong but it is pretty easy to test. I'll report back in an hour or so.
walpurgis
03-11-2015, 17:12
Sounds like a bit of 'overhang', possibly caused by a standing wave (or two). Possibly reflections along the line. If you can access the acoustic line behind the bass driver, try adding a bit of loosely teased long fibre wool. It's very effective and not a lot is required to damp out boom.
Swapped the interconnect for an Audioquest Turquoise. Same issue prevails except niw doesn't sound as good. So much for my instinct. The Audioquest work well with almost everything.
I have swapped the XTZ back in, put the SSC cable back in circuit. Sounds fine but back to the B&O sound again. So would seem to be either an amp-speaker issue as Alan said. Or the AIR does not like passive pre amps but Alan knows I use a passive so would have mentioned this.
Need to swap speakers to get to the bottom of it. Not tonight though.
walpurgis
03-11-2015, 20:16
Here you go mate:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-washed-Luxury-Carded-Soft-Lambs-wool-natural-filling-stuffing-toys-/171317024519?var=&hash=item27e34a5707:m:mdC6zEvNgLwh1KS4A8gdb-g
100 grams is probably enough. :)
Just dropping in quickly, as I'm still officially 'off duty'... Did I miss you mentioning it, or how did the Resomat work out, Martin? :)
Marco.
I've only had one session with it and I'm not sure. Too much new kit keeps arriving and I'm struggling to keep up!
Lol - okies... It's always hard trying to pin down differences when that happens. Wait until your system has settled down and then re-evaluate :)
Marco.
Got the old Techernicks tuner wired in. From 1983 got it for nothing years ago. I've got one of those Omni-directional aerials on the roof so it is hooked up to that. Sounds okay if a little 'synthy'. Needs dusting, too....
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/tuner%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/tuner%20001.jpg.html)
The Achromat - not so sure about this. Placing atop my existing mat does mean I can set the arm exactly level, instead of being a bit tail up. Sound seems a bit more airy, but on the whole I am not keen. Some of the balls and the fun have gone. Also I am in the habit of changing records without stopping the platter - even though it doesn't matter with an SL1200 - and the little nodules are scratching the record as I remove it. So back to the drawing board for mats I think.
On the whole though I am quite liking the current lash up (as per my signature at the bottom of the post) with its '1970's B&O' sound. It makes a good fist of everything and is warm and relaxing to listen to. Really it is the system I would have liked to have 20 years ago. Unfortunately I have heard better since so I know more of what is possible. Nevertheless I have reached a sort of plateau where I could stay reasonably happily if I had no more funds to chuck at it.
I'm inclined to change the speakers again, maybe try some more modern transmission lines to banish the 'Sounds Of The Seventies' aura. I'm really impressed by what the TL loading does in my room and I'm not sure I could go back to 'ordinary' bass. So I'm toying with the idea of an IPL kit speaker, or similar.
Achromat? Do you mean the Resomat? ;)
Sounds like you might need to undertake some further fine-tuning, as the sound defo shouldn't lack 'balls'...
Marco.
Resomat, yes. So many silly names. Can't we just have 'Platter Mat Z11RC Mk 2' or something?
But I'm fairly sure it's not working for me.
No problem, mate. It either works for you or it doesn't.
Just shows how system-dependent T/T mats are, as a sound lacking in balls or fun-factor (as you know) is not something I would accept, or something that happened here when I had a Resomat.
Marco.
winstonmalcolm
25-12-2015, 11:54
Got the old Techernicks tuner wired in. From 1983 got it for nothing years ago. I've got one of those Omni-directional aerials on the roof so it is hooked up to that. Sounds okay if a little 'synthy'. Needs dusting, too....
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/tuner%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/tuner%20001.jpg.html)
The Achromat - not so sure about this. Placing atop my existing mat does mean I can set the arm exactly level, instead of being a bit tail up. Sound seems a bit more airy, but on the whole I am not keen. Some of the balls and the fun have gone. Also I am in the habit of changing records without stopping the platter - even though it doesn't matter with an SL1200 - and the little nodules are scratching the record as I remove it. So back to the drawing board for mats I think.
On the whole though I am quite liking the current lash up (as per my signature at the bottom of the post) with its '1970's B&O' sound. It makes a good fist of everything and is warm and relaxing to listen to. Really it is the system I would have liked to have 20 years ago. Unfortunately I have heard better since so I know more of what is possible. Nevertheless I have reached a sort of plateau where I could stay reasonably happily if I had no more funds to chuck at it.
I'm inclined to change the speakers again, maybe try some more modern transmission lines to banish the 'Sounds Of The Seventies' aura. I'm really impressed by what the TL loading does in my room and I'm not sure I could go back to 'ordinary' bass. So I'm toying with the idea of an IPL kit speaker, or similar.
Hi Marco,
I also have IMF TLS50 mk1s and I cannot speak highly enough about them. I have a CA Streamagic v2 as a source and a Cyrus 2 and PSX. I've had the Cyrus from new and the IMF around 18 months. It's taken me that long to get it sounding 100%. The IMFs had a blown super tweeter and sounded really muddy when I got them. I replaced the super tweeters with coles from Falcon and recapped the xover. Recapping is a must in my opinion, my caps looked fine but the sound was transformed once replaced, Falcon do a recap kit. As great as they now sounded something still wasn't right, I swapped my speaker cable for brighter silver QEDs which helped the top end a fair bit but the system seemed to lack clarity somehow. Whilst trying to track the issue down I powered up the system with the volume cranked up, I jumped up and turned it down as fast as I could but was left with doubts as to whether I had damaged the tweeters, I couldn't detect any difference in sound though.Anyway over the weeks I discovered the tweeters (not supertweeters) weren't working, I'm still unsure as to whether they ever were. So I ordered a set replacements of from Falcon (had to trim them to fit the aperture ) after which the sound was almost there, there was still a couple of % missing which I wanted to let go but couldn't (you know what it's like ).In the end it was the interconnects, I'd been running Cambridge Audio Reference , they look good but lack focus and cloud the upper frequencies I've switched back to my original Linn. Also the QED speaker cable has good high frequency but that's about it, the bass isn't the best nor is imaging. The last and very surprising thing was somehow my Linn Axis is affecting the sound when playing the CA streamagic!! When I unplugged it from the Cyrus the sound really found it's focus, I've not plugged it back in or investigated any further but the difference was clear. My point is I'm sure you can get to the bottom of the issue definitely look at recapping if you haven't already.
THi Winston.
A lot of people recommend re-capping so I should look into it. Personally I think that whilst it kight improve clarity the main issue is theKEF driver. This is what really gives the speaker its overall 'tone' and character. Not much can be done about that I fear. With speakers I think at some point you have to accept thate they are what they are. And no speaker is perfect. The positives do outweigh the negatives in this case and that doesn't always happen.
winstonmalcolm
01-01-2016, 10:17
Interesting, I haven't heard a vast range of equipment or speakers so couldn't make that sort of judgment. What is it they say? ignorance is bliss ha ha :lol:
. What is it they say? ignorance is bliss ha ha :lol:
The older I get the more I think that is true....not just in hi-fi
But it is a two way street. I have had the chance to hear a few systems that are a whole step up from what I have. The title of this thread is not intended to be ironic. But I've also heard a few systems that whilst they were very expensive, if you owned them you would never want to use them, they were that poor.
What spurred me on the most in trying to improve my sound was not listening to the expensive, great sounding systems, but the modest set-ups, like my neighbours rig, that I realised I actually preferred listening to over my own set-up at the time.
CornishPasty
02-01-2016, 02:43
If you can get hold off some open stands to raise those speakers off the ground by four or five inches I'm sure you'd be happy with the result. I find the bass a bit heavy and plodding with the speakers on the floor. I live near Accrington, Lancs and if you're ever passing through you're welcome to come and listen to my TLS80s.
Thanks Ralph. I have my radar out for some '80s or some TDLs.
The bass was a bit thuddy when I first got them set up but seems to have opened out a bit now. They do have plenty of space behind them so on the whole sound quite well-balanced. I just wish they could handle a bit more power. I am going to invest in a new listening chair so I can sit closer to them, more to follow on that.
The tannoys i had were similar and lifting them a bit did wonders fo the bass
Bored! Bored! Bored!
System sounds perfect. And just cannot hold my attention at all. What exactly is wrong with this picture? I just don't know.
Tried some re-organisation. listening seat closer to the speakers. Rule of thirds, equilateral triangle, blah blah. If anything this is not as good as listening 20 feet away. I'm not even playing the system any quieter but the sound is just not grabbing me. And it is all there, lovely bass, great top end, decay, shimmer etc etc and if I try to pay attention I appreciate what these speakers can do but as soon as I forget to concentrate a whole album goes by without me noticing.
Vinyl set up now working well, best I've had it. Playing ZZ Top's 'Recycler' (apparently one of the best vinyl albums out there for dynamic range) Physically awesome, otherwise meh. But I can't work out why the 'meh' as nothing seems to be wrong with the sound when I try any kind of assessment basis - it is all there and lovely balance, really even-handed, no type of music or recording sounds bad, but everything is just bland.
Not sure what to do. Was looking at Behringer PA speakers on Amazon earlier, that's not good, someone help!
Maybe just your mood. cant always be; go for a film instead
I wish it was Grant, I wish it was. After I first had these speakers I was tempted to post that I thought they were just too smooth for rock music. Then they opened up a bit and I sort of changed my view. But I can't get away from it, this just ain't doing it for me. The Akai SW175 may have flaws aplenty but at least I don't forget I have music on when I am using them.
Got to sort some new speakers, but I've got no idea where to go with that. Need to be big sounding, lots of power handling, deep bass,,,sounds like a lot of money I don't really want to spend.
jandl100
23-01-2016, 18:36
Have you still got the Akai speakers?
Maybe just your mood. cant always be; go for a film instead
Failing that, a nice, slow hand-shandy.... Always a reliable mood-changer - or perhaps a hand-shandy to a nice film? ;)
Marco.
could you put the Akai's back in, or have they gone.?
I still have them Jerry, plus a set of spare drivers for them (2 of everything). With my SECA valve amp they sound lush but that amp doesn't have the power for the room size, and I don't want to go near-field, although that is now starting to look like the only viable 'free' option.
jandl100
23-01-2016, 18:41
Keep your eye out for a pair of JBL vintage monitors.
I had L110 for quite a while - I suspect they would meet your needs.
Loadsa pizzaz from those old JBLs - IMF were always famed for being a bit pipe & slippers.
- our posts overlapped
Failing that, a nice, slow hand-shandy.... Always a reliable mood-changer - or perhaps a hand-shandy to a nice film? ;)
Marco.
I've seen some left-field tweaks in my time but that is a new one.
jandl100
23-01-2016, 18:47
I still have them Jerry, plus a set of spare drivers for them (2 of everything). With my SECA valve amp they sound lush but that amp doesn't have the power for the room size, and I don't want to go near-field, although that is now starting to look like the only viable 'free' option.
Ah, you need some ballsy solid state amp, perhaps.
An excellent and cheap option is an AMC 2100 - amazing thing I picked up for my 2nd system for about £100. Drives my very difficult Maggies with no problems. :thumbsup:
-- as it happens, I've an another AMC amp up for sale. That's good, too. I'd be happy to loan it to you if you were interested in trying it. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41008-FS-AMC-2445-power-amp-(2-or-4-channel)-bargain!&highlight=2445
It's currently on loan to someone else, but I could ask them if they could forward it to you. (We've arranged to get it back to me at Scalford).
Keep your eye out for a pair of JBL vintage monitors.
I had L110 for quite a while - I suspect they would meet your needs.
Loadsa pizzaz from those old JBLs - IMF were always famed for being a bit pipe & slippers.
- our posts overlapped
No they won't cut it, I need something that will work out in free space and doesn't need wall-reinforcement. If I am going to go near field and have the speakers across the room instead of down it I might as well just use the Akais.
Was looking at these JBL on Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/JBL-Studio-Floorstanding-Loudspeaker-Speaker/dp/B00JHMDUP4/ref=pd_sim_sbs_23_5?ie=UTF8&dpID=21ije1EYkKL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR86%2C160_&refRID=14RDPVF7F80RK0G53BB1
Before anyone gets excited the price is per speaker. Not sure I am ready to go buying new speakers randomly of the internet yet, but I've done it before. Usually with poor results....
Ah, you need some ballsy solid state amp, perhaps.
An excellent and cheap option is an AMC 2100 - amazing thing I picked up for my 2nd system for about £100. Drives my very difficult Maggies with no problems. :thumbsup:
-- as it happens, I've an another AMC amp up for sale. That's good, too. I'd be happy to loan it to you if you were interested in trying it. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?41008-FS-AMC-2445-power-amp-(2-or-4-channel)-bargain!&highlight=2445
It's currently on loan to someone else, but I could ask them if they could forward it to you. (We've arranged to get it back to me at Scalford).
Cheers but I already have amplifiers out of my ass. I'm driving the IMFs with an XTZ which I know you have tried and that isn't short of grunt. I've also got Linn, NVA and Harmon Kardon amps to fall back on.
walpurgis
23-01-2016, 18:56
System sounds perfect. And just cannot hold my attention at all. What exactly is wrong with this picture? I just don't know.
Not enough beer mate! :D
jandl100
23-01-2016, 18:57
Fair enough - yep, the XTZ has loadsa grunt and more than a bit of flair.
My old JBL L110 didn't like being too near the wall - I'm not sure how they would cope with being in free space though.
I'd be wary of those Amazon JBLs - they look like they might be AV crapola to me - JBL ain't what it used to be, at least some of them, AV is a big part of their market now.
What's wrong with your Akais?
Tried the beer tweak. No dice.
was going to say my prodiges might do you as they like being out in open and have good base, but they are only 2 way and doubt if they are big enough for you :lol:
Fair enough - yep, the XTZ has loadsa grunt and more than a bit of flair.
My old JBL L110 didn't like being too near the wall - I'm not sure how they would cope with being in free space though.
I'd be wary of those Amazon JBLs - they look like they might be AV crapola to me - JBL ain't what it used to be, at least some of them, AV is a big part of their market now.
What's wrong with your Akais?
I hear you about those JBLs. They are not quite cheap enough for a blind punt are they? Nothing wrong with the Akais, but like those old JBLs you linked to they are a 'bookshelf' speaker and need boundary reinforcement if you want any bass below 100 Hz. And they are ever so slightly rough with the XTZ - although fine with the valve amps I have tried them with.
walpurgis
23-01-2016, 19:07
The cure lies here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Cheviot-hifi-speakers-/141881815475?hash=item2108d0b1b3:g:0q0AAOSwFqJWnqT H
Not far too far from you either. You know it has to be done one of these days! ;):D
40 year old Tannoys! Does it really have to come to that? ;)
Audio Al
23-01-2016, 19:14
Listen to a DAB radio for a week then you will appreciate what you have ;)
walpurgis
23-01-2016, 19:15
40 year old Tannoys! Does it really have to come to that? ;)
Your 40 year old records are just waiting for it to happen! :trust:
Audio Al
23-01-2016, 19:17
The cure lies here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tannoy-Cheviot-hifi-speakers-/141881815475?hash=item2108d0b1b3:g:0q0AAOSwFqJWnqT H
Not far too far from you either. You know it has to be done one of these days! ;):D
My pair of drivers are at Lockwoods having a rebuild :eyebrows:
I was also looking at these modern Tannoy - XT 6F (where do they get these names?)
http://www.richersounds.com/product/floorstanders/tannoy/revolution-xt-6f/tann-xt6f-dk-wal
A bag of sand, but I can get a listen in the local Richer's. WTF reviewed them couldn't find a thing wrong with them, for what that's worth. I'm sort of thinking about getting away from vintage speakers, at least for a while. I think I want to move towards a sound like Gordon (Halfway Tree) was getting with his system at the last NEBO.
walpurgis
23-01-2016, 19:43
I was also looking at these modern Tannoy - XT 6F (where do they get these names?).
They will be Tulip Waveguide types and won't sound like the classic 'pepperpot' duals. Engineered in China most likely.
No doubt built in China. I've never been totally sold on vintage Tannoys, they are good all-rounders, though. Why does almost everyone end up with big Tannoys or electrostatics?
As Alexi Sayle used to say: 'It's crap this really, isn't it?' If you'd told me 25 years ago that approaching fifty I still wouldn't have a hi-fi system I was happy with I'd have said you were having a giraffe. In the past few years I have got so close on so many occasions. Something must be done!
walpurgis
23-01-2016, 20:18
Why does almost everyone end up with big Tannoys or electrostatics?
Simple. On the end of the right system (and it HAS to be right), well sorted examples just make music. I'm including the electrostatics as mentioned 'cos I like those too (and horns).
You should hear mine. The sound I get is better than I've heard on systems costing ten times what I've spent. I've been at this game a hell of a long time and heard some of the best gear about, but feel no need to change anything in my system (mind you, adding to it is another matter :)).
jandl100
23-01-2016, 20:41
Tannoys :doh: :nono: :spew:
:lol:
southall-1998
23-01-2016, 20:44
:partytime:
S.
I've never been totally sold on vintage Tannoys...
Lol - well you did a superb job of hiding that at my place! :eyebrows: ;)
As Alexi Sayle used to say: 'It's crap this really, isn't it?' If you'd told me 25 years ago that approaching fifty I still wouldn't have a hi-fi system I was happy with I'd have said you were having a giraffe. In the past few years I have got so close on so many occasions. Something must be done!
It's a nightmare you're in that position. I'd still love to have a right good 'go' at your system, in terms of applying some tried and trusted set up tweaks. I'm a great believer in that the 'magic' of a good system is not simply just down to finding the right boxes and speakers. Optimising the 'Infrastructure' is also vitally important.
Perhaps one day when you're off work and bored we could try that? :)
Marco.
I reckon I have everything right bar the speakers. I just need to choose wisely this time.
Big Tannoys are my fallback position. I think I could happily live with them but I'm thinking there is potentially better to be had.
jandl100
25-01-2016, 06:51
Apart from my silly-money MBLs, the best all-rounder speakers I've had are probably Leema Xavier (£600), Audio Physics Virgo 2 (£800), Kharma Ceramique (£1400), JBL L110 (£150). (In (brackets) what they cost me).
We have very different musical tastes, but of those I would have thought the AP Virgo2 would suit you best, seriously rockin' and astonishing deep taut bass and they love being in free space, closely followed by a larger version of vintage JBL. (My own faves were the Leema Xavier).
I'm allergic to Tannoys, but if you like the Tannoy Sound then the pair of Lancaster-cabbed 12 inch Golds I borrowed for my dem room at the 2011 (?) Scalford show were received with pretty much unanimous enthusiasm. "superb" "best at show" and so on. Even I enjoyed them for a few hours, before they got too annoying. :eyebrows:
Oldpinkman
25-01-2016, 08:13
Why does almost everyone end up with big Tannoys or electrostatics?
I think that's a forum thing. It's easy to think the world is a Hifi forum at times. So not everybody does that - it just seems that way
Withing forums there is a trend to vintage - "classic designs". Providing they don't become cult they represent excellent value for money compared with modern (or even back then) retail price. I picked my ESL63's up for £500. Shop price for nearest equivalent today would be 10x that price.
As to which - are you a paper or a plastic boy? For me paper, however good, always seems to have the comb with it. I have dallied with the Lowthers, I enjoyed Keesonic Kubs as small monitors, but ultimately paper drivers sound paper. (I was about to write "coloured" but hesitated in anticipation of the hate-mail. They sound "paper". I think my speaker friends (including Arthur) say there are reasons for that about breakup and stuff, but regardless of the technical reasons, they sound that way to me).
Regarding the 2 choices - I think it partly depends on what you like - partly on what you get to hear. Sue first heard the ESL's at Owens - 63's followed by 57's and preferred the 63's and it was a jaw-dropping moment. We heard the 57's at Gordons, and it would have done nothing for her. If your first experience of a speaker is a good one, I reckon that influences your appreciation of it. I'd love to play her some stacked 57's and see if that helps her appreciate why Owen and I are less clear cut on which we prefer
Tannoys. My favourite tannoy was the school P.A. We locked the teachers in the staff room and played "Derek and Clive, Live" on it, in the last week of my 6th form. :lol:
I reckon I have everything right bar the speakers. I just need to choose wisely this time.
Big Tannoys are my fallback position. I think I could happily live with them but I'm thinking there is potentially better to be had.
You have an open invitation to visit and listen to the big RFC Canterburys Martin if you think that all vintage Tannoy equipped drivers/speakers sound the same. They just might change your mind and have something that most vintage Tannoys struggle to get away from...a lack of obvious colouration! Some of this is down to crossover design, the rest is down to the cabinet. They will be our final destination loudspeakers. As for Lancasters...I've yet to hear a pair that I liked or which convinced. A cabinet which was completely the wrong size for the drivers and highly coloured due to being under damped and highly resonant. Why they remain popular is a complete mystery to me! Nostalgia perhaps. Anyway, don't write off vintage Tannoy drive units just yet...their full potential is rarely achieved in vintage cabs and using vintage crossovers.
I reckon I have everything right bar the speakers. I just need to choose wisely this time.
Big Tannoys are my fallback position. I think I could happily live with them but I'm thinking there is potentially better to be had.
There will always "better" somewhere, bro, and often at far greater cost! I remember in your review of my system you mentioned that the Lockies would easily compete with speakers out there at £20-30k, and I agree, so how much "better" do you want? ;)
Don't forget also that vintage speakers virtually always need crossover modifications, in order to perform to the required high standard, and I don't think you've ever done that with any of yours.... I'm afraid that's the only way that the vast majority of them will be able to compete with the BEST speakers available today.
Anyway, it sounds as if you're on another 'journey', and I truly hope it ends well for you.
However, I fear that if your target is budget to mid-price 'new style' speakers, you'll largely be in for disappointment, as IME, that is not where true SPPV lies, and after living with something like that, as soon as you hear a big pair of Tannoys (or JBLs) again, you'll ably hear why most 'affordable' modern speakers just don't cut it...
However, it'll be interesting to see where you end up. Good luck! :cool:
Marco.
Jerry, Richard, Paul, thanks for your input. Especially Jerry as a list of speakers to consider is extremely helpful. I should probably start a thread asking for input. I'd like to have as many options as possible to investigate.
For the record I am familiar with and like the sound of properly sorted big Tannoys. I've also heard untouched vintage ones and I agree they are not really comparable. I'm not dismissing them, as I said they are my fallback if I can't find something else. If only for the reason that I instinctively don't like to 'follow the crowd'. Not that I really would be as Richard points out, but, you know. ;)
Paper drivers I do like despite the fact that they are coloured, but so are all drivers in one way or another. Paper cones sound the most 'natural' to me, especially with electric guitar tone.
Electrostatics are also a consideration, especially the modern QUAD ESLs which impress me a lot - although the times I have heard the original ESL I have always been amazed, I don't think the vintage efforts will take enough power for my needs. My room is absolutely ideal for a dipole speaker.
Budget? I don't usually like to spend 'proper money' on hi-fi but if I can get it right this time I would go up to a max of about two grand. Further suggestions would be very welcome.
You have an open invitation to visit and listen to the big RFC Canterburys Martin if you think that all vintage Tannoy equipped drivers/speakers sound the same. They just might change your mind and have something that most vintage Tannoys struggle to get away from...a lack of obvious colouration! Some of this is down to crossover design, the rest is down to the cabinet. They will be our final destination loudspeakers. As for Lancasters...I've yet to hear a pair that I liked or which convinced. A cabinet which was completely the wrong size for the drivers and highly coloured due to being under damped and highly resonant. Why they remain popular is a complete mystery to me! Nostalgia perhaps. Anyway, don't write off vintage Tannoy drive units just yet...their full potential is rarely achieved in vintage cabs and using vintage crossovers.
Yup, I'm with you there, Paul, although at the end of the day, ALL speakers are coloured to some degree, therefore a lot of selecting the right speakers for your tastes is simply down to choosing your favourite/least offensive (to your ears) type of coloration! ;)
{Note to Jerry: in terms of the above, I can hear 'omni coloration', in the same way you can hear that of Tannoy DCs, but it didn't stop me appreciating and enjoying what your speakers did well :)}
I do agree that the original crossovers for vintage Tannoy DCs are hopelessly obsolete, and give the speakers a rather 'cuddly', tubby and old-fashioned sound, certainly one that I couldn't have lived with. A virtual complete redesign, with the best modern components, however, completely sorts that out, as you know.
In terms of cabinets, again I agree, as almost all of the original cabinets for vintage Tannoys (save perhaps GRFs) were rather inadequate, compared with the quality of the drive units themselves, and so housing the latter in modern, more inert and better designed ones, can pay serious dividends.
I'd definitely have gone down that route myself, had my Golds (originally Reds) not been housed inside Lockwood cabs, which in my experience, are amongst those that make the most out of Tannoy 15" DC drivers. It's simply a design that 'works'.
That's not to say, however, that they couldn't be improved (as anything can), but when doing such things there are always going to be trade-offs, and I simply wouldn't want to lose what I love about their sound - and especially, in terms of their design, how well they work in my room.
As ever in audio, if you want to end up with a musically rewarding sound (somewhere Macca unfortunately isn't just now) you have to carefully choose your compromises, and *fundamentally understand* what it is you're trying to achieve, and most importantly, how to get there... :cool:
Marco.
If only for the reason that I instinctively don't like to 'follow the crowd'.
Lol - I get that. However, there aren't many here running a big pair of vintage JBLs! For me, that's an itch you defo have to scratch, and if I were a betting man, that's where I think you'll end up ;)
In the meantime, think about this:
There's a reason why Jerry's spent such a large amount of money on his speakers (even though I don't necessary support that method of system building), and it's because the vast majority of 'affordable' (read as sub-£5k) modern/commercial speakers are shit (or at least aren't able to perform at a level that would satisfy your ears or mine), so you have to spend BIG to get *real* quality - certainly something that sounds as if it's reproducing a believable facsimile of real voices and instruments, instead of a rather pale imitation of such, making little more than a barely acceptable noise....
Marco.
Lol - I get that. However, there aren't many here running a big pair of vintage JBLs! For me, that's an itch you defo have to scratch, and if I were a betting man, that's where I think you'll end up ;)
.
Sadly to achieve that I would have to raid the 'rebuild the house' fund which I'm not going to do. You've been to my hut, you know I can't put that off forever. The smaller, affordable vintage JBLs won't cut it for my room layout and they' re not that different to the Akais I already have.
Anyone into the Harbeth/ Spendor/ BBC thing would like the set-up I have now with the IMFs. The quality is there, it is just the presentation that is not for me.
...and I reckon that I could have a damned good go at fixing what you think is wrong without the need for changing your speakers! ;)
Not sure if you're willing to give me that opportunity, though.....
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 09:55
Seems to me that a decent set of open baffles would tick all your boxes Martin. You have the room, and great sound can be achieved for little outlay.
Yup, good shout, Ali. That's an option I'd thoroughly recommend Martin investigates (anything other than throwing his money away on nondescript modern crap, as IME, that road will lead to nothing but disappointment), although if he goes for OBs, an amp change may be necessary :)
Marco.
Seems to me that a decent set of open baffles would tick all your boxes Martin. You have the room, and great sound can be achieved for little outlay.
That is another consideration and I have found a cabinet maker who is into music and is only a few hundred yards away....so I am contemplating a kit build. Any specific suggestions there?
Marco if you want to come over some time for a 'muck about' you'd be most welcome - I'm off every Monday until the end of Feb if you want to do a weekday. I'm convinced it is the speakers that are not working for me but I'd appreciate a second opinion from someone with a good ear.
Oldpinkman
25-01-2016, 10:16
Electrostatics are also a consideration, especially the modern QUAD ESLs which impress me a lot - although the times I have heard the original ESL I have always been amazed, I don't think the vintage efforts will take enough power for my needs. My room is absolutely ideal for a dipole speaker.
You'll know whether the ESL thing does it for you or not. Briefly
You are right - the room drives the solution, although I have come round a bit to Gordon Steadmans view that "where there's a will there's a way" with finding room for ESL's
Never mind dipole and distance from reflecting walls, they are are big ugly bastards and I remain astonished that Sue is so committed to them, when on every other subject (including rejecting a silver AHB2) she worries about appearance
I clearly differ from most HiFi types, and am more of a Peter Walker listener. I don't like music too loud. Whilst I've never worn them at big band concerts I took to wearing ear protectors whilst being the "sound man" for the pub band I worked with (the mixing desk was often right in front of the speakers) - I can listen at loud, but not that bloody loud, levels. Nonetheless - the 63's will go loud. They wear out faster and need servicing more regularly if you drive them loud according to One Thing - but they can go loud.
On the ear-protector front, following a trip to Gordon and Cagey last year, I now follow Cageys advice and always wear ear protectors with any power tools, including using the ride-on mower which has a watercooled engine. I am happy with not playing music at pain-threshold volumes.
63's will go louder than 57's - They only ever work for me on stands like the ones mine are on. It has become clear to me in the last couple of years that a lot of folk don't get anywhere near their best out of them. If you are using them loud, 63's have protection circuitry and 57's can have it fitted - make sure your amp is protected too, cos its pretty brutal protection on the speaker! I know this would take things out of your budget, but the AHB2 is a total joy in this respect. A sensibly modified Quad 405-2 is a pretty obvious alternative (but you're happy with the rest of your system, so as long as the power amp you have isn't at risk from a crowbar, no issues)
Since everyone else is inviting your round to hear theirs, I am hoping to have a really good dem available in the South of France soon - the repair kit has arrived, and whilst a bit "live" I have high hopes for the room down there ;) (No warm beer mind)
My only wee word of caution for "I'm nearly finished" is I have always started with the speakers, and found equipment that makes them work the way I want them to. Best of British :cool:
Final thought - do you like the BBC sound? Andrew Watson (formerly of Kef, more famously of my karate club) has designed bass cabinets with a crossover for the LS35a which extend the bass and the power handling, and is about to launch them from his new business Stonegate Audio. I haven't heard them yet - he keeps inviting me round, but its the silly season. He is a good designer.
Marco if you want to come over some time for a 'muck about' you'd be most welcome - I'm off every Monday until the end of Feb if you want to do a weekday. I'm convinced it is the speakers that are not working for me but I'd appreciate a second opinion from someone with a good ear.
Ok, dude, I'll PM ya later! :cool:
The exercise would be useful, even if for no other reason than to get a proper handle on what you think is wrong, as you can demonstrate it to me. Then, I'll be in a better position to offer advice on how I think you can 'fix' it.
Marco.
You'll know whether the ESL thing does it for you or not. Briefly
You are right - the room drives the solution, although I have come round a bit to Gordon Steadmans view that "where there's a will there's a way" with finding room for ESL's
Never mind dipole and distance from reflecting walls, they are are big ugly bastards and I remain astonished that Sue is so committed to them, when on every other subject (including rejecting a silver AHB2) she worries about appearance
I clearly differ from most HiFi types, and am more of a Peter Walker listener. I don't like music too loud. Whilst I've never worn them at big band concerts I took to wearing ear protectors whilst being the "sound man" for the pub band I worked with (the mixing desk was often right in front of the speakers) - I can listen at loud, but not that bloody loud, levels. Nonetheless - the 63's will go loud. They wear out faster and need servicing more regularly if you drive them loud according to One Thing - but they can go loud.
On the ear-protector front, following a trip to Gordon and Cagey last year, I now follow Cageys advice and always wear ear protectors with any power tools, including using the ride-on mower which has a watercooled engine. I am happy with not playing music at pain-threshold volumes.
63's will go louder than 57's - They only ever work for me on stands like the ones mine are on. It has become clear to me in the last couple of years that a lot of folk don't get anywhere near their best out of them. If you are using them loud, 63's have protection circuitry and 57's can have it fitted - make sure your amp is protected too, cos its pretty brutal protection on the speaker! I know this would take things out of your budget, but the AHB2 is a total joy in this respect. A sensibly modified Quad 405-2 is a pretty obvious alternative (but you're happy with the rest of your system, so as long as the power amp you have isn't at risk from a crowbar, no issues)
Since everyone else is inviting your round to hear theirs, I am hoping to have a really good dem available in the South of France soon - the repair kit has arrived, and whilst a bit "live" I have high hopes for the room down there ;) (No warm beer mind)
My only wee word of caution for "I'm nearly finished" is I have always started with the speakers, and found equipment that makes them work the way I want them to. Best of British :cool:
Final thought - do you like the BBC sound? Andrew Watson (formerly of Kef, more famously of my karate club) has designed bass cabinets with a crossover for the LS35a which extend the bass and the power handling, and is about to launch them from his new business Stonegate Audio. I haven't heard them yet - he keeps inviting me round, but its the silly season. He is a good designer.
I don't play music that loud, but the room is large and seated 20 plus feet from the speakers you need some power handling to get the required levels - I've measured the level I listen at and it is around 75dB constant at the listening position, which is not loud, but I like some physicality in the sound, which is why I never use headphones, so the system must have some grunt to it. Otherwise I'd be using my SECA amp and the Akais as that is a sublime combo.
I'm not a fan of the BBC sound, that's the problem I have now! (I think).
As regards a visit I am thinking of travelling down to Spain to visit my uncle later in the year so if you are anywhere near the Spanish/French border that could be do-able :)
Oldpinkman
25-01-2016, 10:43
I don't play music that loud, but the room is large and seated 20 plus feet from the speakers you need some power handling to get the required levels - I've measured the level I listen at and it is around 75dB constant at the listening position, which is not loud, but I like some physicality in the sound, which is why I never use headphones, so the system must have some grunt to it. Otherwise I'd be using my SECA amp and the Akais as that is a sublime combo.
I'm not a fan of the BBC sound, that's the problem I have now! (I think).
As regards a visit I am thinking of travelling down to Spain to visit my uncle later in the year so if you are anywhere near the Spanish/French border that could be do-able :)
OK 75db is a long way from too loud. 20ft from the speakers is Ok - Owens room would be about that (although if you are seated 20ft from the rear wall, the ESL's work better maybe 6 feet in front of that) If your room is too big, and you like electrostatics, its a no-brainer. You want a set of stacked 57's - which we had in the listening room at Sidcup - which was probably 30ft x30ft and with a fairly high ceiling. There is still an evil voice at the back of my mind wondering about these in the new room in France -we have yet to move in and make anything work. They are big motherf****s though.
As for grunt - ESL's are never going to do "feel it" bass, but they go low tunefully, and often the bass is the most noticeable aspect when they are well sorted, especially with a good fast tight gripping amp like the AHB.
We are moving to a village near Quillan - about an hour from the Spanish border (La Jonquera) on the Mediterranean coast (east side of Spain), so maybe an obvious stop-over :)
walpurgis
25-01-2016, 10:46
I spotted these earlier: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KLIPSCH-FORTE-II-FLOOR-SPEAKERS-/262257717047?hash=item3d0fc72f37:g:rp4AAOSw-zxWpM9A
Thought they might appeal. At least they're an individual and respected product with character. Bit of a drive though. :)
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 10:59
That is another consideration and I have found a cabinet maker who is into music and is only a few hundred yards away....so I am contemplating a kit build. Any specific suggestions there?
Marco if you want to come over some time for a 'muck about' you'd be most welcome - I'm off every Monday until the end of Feb if you want to do a weekday. I'm convinced it is the speakers that are not working for me but I'd appreciate a second opinion from someone with a good ear.
I'd suggest a copy of mine, the parameters of which were designed by Martin King who knows a thing or two about OB's..
Two Eminence Alpha or Beta 15" woofers per side, Alphas are around £50 each. I currently use an 8" Visaton B200 per side for mid/top duties, these are around £250 or so per pair now I think. The B200's work very well, though a set of Mark Audio Alpair 12P's may be better. I don't currently use a tweeter, you may prefer to, in which case I'd ask Colin Topps about the tweeter he currently uses in his speakers - very good for the money from what he and Scott say.
Adding a tweeter would obviously make it into a three way, as mine stand they are a simple two way run actively via a miniDSP - about 120 dollars I think. I use a 4th order Linkwitz Reilly slope, crossing over at 200hz.
You have several amps, so it would be easy to run an active system.
Apart from the above, all you'd need is a couple of sheets of Birch Ply and some cable and connectors.
Be no problem for me to make up a dimensional drawing for you to clone them.
Cheap way to great sound IMHO.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 11:01
You'd be welcome to get the train up for the weekend if you want to have a listen to mine BTW.
The only thing Martin would have to watch, with OBs, is their ruthlessly revealing nature of what's happening 'upstream', and part of that is the inherent 'graininess'/sterility of a lot of solid-state amps, which you know of all too well yourself.
In that respect, I don't know how what Martin's got now (in the amp department) would cope. That, along with their super-high efficiency, means that unless you know exactly what you're doing when building OBs (and use the right amps), you can end up with little more than a glorified PA system!
I've heard some truly awful, thin and screechy sounding OBs, in that respect (with no real bass to speak of), but equally I've heard some great ones, where the owner has clearly demonstrated that he's gotten it right.
Therefore, if Martin's to go down that road, he would do well to pop up and have a listen to yours (or those belonging to someone else who's successfully built a nice OB-based system), so he knows what he's doing, and what to buy, rather than embarking upon a project, as it were, merely 'on a wing and a prayer'.
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 11:31
Well, I'm using a Class A SS amp for the mid and top end, which sounds great, so I suspect his XTZ would sound good. I use a Behringer Inuke 3000w jobbie for the bass.
Thanks Ali - The only thing that puts me of about that is all the measuring required to get the levels set up right. I'd need a lot of help with that I think, although I reckon I understand the basic principles. But it does open up the option of room correction and the ability to tune it how I want it. Those drivers (both you mentioned) do have a good spec for full rangers, I could probably live with a 2 way without the tweeter. If you could send me a rough outline of the plans at some point when you have time I will consult with the cabinet maker.
Sure, I don't know any of that kit, so I don't know what it's capable of or not. Therefore, the amps he's got might be great, but you know where I'm coming from? :)
Marco.
We are moving to a village near Quillan - about an hour from the Spanish border (La Jonquera) on the Mediterranean coast (east side of Spain), so maybe an obvious stop-over :)
You are on my line of march then as I am going to near Alicante. You are quite close to Rennes Le Chateau, too. Interesting bit of the country and very beautiful.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 11:57
Thanks Ali - The only thing that puts me of about that is all the measuring required to get the levels set up right. I'd need a lot of help with that I think, although I reckon I understand the basic principles. But it does open up the option of room correction and the ability to tune it how I want it. Those drivers (both you mentioned) do have a good spec for full rangers, I could probably live with a 2 way without the tweeter. If you could send me a rough outline of the plans at some point when you have time I will consult with the cabinet maker.
Seriously, it's dead easy Martin. You can connect to the miniDSP and change the crossover parameters on the fly as you listen. I just tune by ear, though I do have a calibrated mic.
I've tried all the different slopes and have varied the xover frequency, but keep coming back to 4th order LR, crossing at 200hz, so that's a good place for you to start if you use similar drivers. It was Scott who advised on what to use when I first got these, and he was right on the money.
The Inuke I use on the bass has volume control, so I just adjust levels to match whatever amp I'm using on the mid/top (usually a Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro). Dead easy to do, and it also means you can dial in a bit more bass if you watch films through the system, good for explosions and such.
I don't tend to worry about how it measures, I just adjust by ear.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 12:06
Sure, I don't know any of that kit, so I don't know what it's capable of or not. Therefore, the amps he's got might be great, but you know where I'm coming from? :)
Marco.
Well yes, that's true for any speaker though really. :-)
Yes and no, Ali.
In my experience, because with OBs you don't have any cabinets to help 'cheer up' the sound, as it were (one could call it coloration, but some coloration can sound 'musical'), it lays bare any deficiencies elsewhere in the system, including exposing what OBs are not so good at, without some effort, (extended and weighty deep bass).
Consequently, the resulting sound is 'all midrange and top end', with no 'balls', which can make for a rather thin and fatiguing sound, even with 15" drivers!
Now I *know* that's fundamentally NOT what you've got going on with yours, but I've heard it happen so often with others, and it's certainly not a sound that I could live with. Conversely, when done right, OBs are not lacking in those areas.
Of course, as you correctly say, it's all about getting it right, and that equally applies with other speakers. It's just that in my experience, with having no cabinets, OBs are less 'forgiving', in that respect, than box speakers. Furthermore, super-high efficiency always results in trade-offs in deep bass.
As you know in audio, there is no 'free lunch' ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 12:32
That can often be the design of the OB. Using a woofer on a baffle means that there is a 6db loss in level due to phase cancellation. A way to get this back is to use a second woofer, which just happens to add 6db..
Other ways can be the use of a "U" or "H" baffle, both of which will increase bass response. Size of the front baffle plays a part too.
I've had comments along the lines of "Where have you hidden the sub?" when folk have listened to mine. :-)
I think Marco means the phase cancelation in the bass which limits the lowest fundamental that can be reproduced. As opposed to the levels. But I can have plenty of room behind them to cancel the rear wave which should help there. Might as well take advantage of a long room.
That can often be the design of the OB. Using a woofer on a baffle means that there is a 6db loss in level due to phase cancellation. A way to get this back is to use a second woofer, which just happens to add 6db..
Other ways can be the use of a "U" or "H" baffle, both of which will increase bass response. Size of the front baffle plays a part too.
I've had comments along the lines of "Where have you hidden the sub?" when folk have listened to mine. :-)
Yeah, I know the results can be fantastic (I've heard them), but like you say, in order to get proper deep, extended bass, it results in the creation of something that'll take up a considerable amount of space, and I'm thinking here mainly in terms of baffle width.
Macca's room is rather long, but not terribly wide (in truth, it's a rather weird shape), so the above, and housing the finished article practically, as it were (especially if you're talking about needing two 15" drivers to make it work right), is something he may wish to consider.
Marco.
My room isn't a weird shape - it is a conventional rectangle 29' by 11.5' by 9' 2''(height)
That's not far from Golden Ratio.
But due to chimney breasts and some built in plinths the width isn't enough to really have big speakers firing across the room, and both the short walls have doors in them, hence the speakers must work well in free space.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 13:02
Well OB's will certainly do that.
Firebottle
25-01-2016, 13:06
When I heard Ali's OB's my comment was 'how can conventional speakers sound this good?'
With the high sensitivity you might get surprising results with your SE valve amp Martin.
If it is of any use in getting a handle on the problem, or just hearing something a bit more modern, I could bring up my B&W 603 S2 floorstanders for a listen.
They are possibly a bit 'hi-fi' in their presentation but not bad speakers.
:D
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 13:10
Cheers Alan. :-)
I'm hoping for even better with the new set, if I ever get round to it.
When I heard Ali's OB's my comment was 'how can conventional speakers sound this good?'
With the high sensitivity you might get surprising results with your SE valve amp Martin.
If it is of any use in getting a handle on the problem, or just hearing something a bit more modern, I could bring up my B&W 603 S2 floorstanders for a listen.
They are possibly a bit 'hi-fi' in their presentation but not bad speakers.
:D
Alan, that would be a help if you ever have some free time. I also have under consideration the B&W 683 since a mate has some in a similar size room and they are pretty good and not silly money.
The little SECA should/might work on the Visaton drivers, they are 96dB.
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 13:32
Not really, more like 90-92 in the real world..
Ali Tait
25-01-2016, 13:33
But, the SECA should be fine, having only to reproduce from 200hz up.
Alan, that would be a help if you ever have some free time. I also have under consideration the B&W 683 since a mate has some in a similar size room and they are pretty good and not silly money.
The little SECA should/might work on the Visaton drivers, they are 96dB.
It would be a great match with my telefunkens. 3 ohm 8 w but very high sensitivity. Dont need much power and sound sublime
Oldpinkman
25-01-2016, 14:50
You are on my line of march then as I am going to near Alicante. You are quite close to Rennes Le Chateau, too. Interesting bit of the country and very beautiful.
Have you been to Rennes le Chateau? It is why we found the area (originally - about 15 years back). It's also our next door village, with a footpath from our house leading direct to the village. If you've not been for a while, its changed. During high season you have to park outside and take the tourist train in, the cemetery is closed to the public. But still an interesting place. Henry Lincoln is a neighbour!
:)
My room isn't a weird shape - it is a conventional rectangle 29' by 11.5' by 9' 2''(height)
That's not far from Golden Ratio.
Lol - ok, not weird... Perhaps, from memory, that was just my perception of it :)
If you need speakers to work in free space, then forget all about big Tannoys DCs, as they'll boom all over the place. They need to be used almost right up against a back wall, and into the corners. Free space is a nono, mate.
Marco.
Have you been to Rennes le Chateau? It is why we found the area (originally - about 15 years back). It's also our next door village, with a footpath from our house leading direct to the village. If you've not been for a while, its changed. During high season you have to park outside and take the tourist train in, the cemetery is closed to the public. But still an interesting place. Henry Lincoln is a neighbour!
:)
No not been there but was in that area of France back in 1984. Saw the Henry Lincoln documentary as a nipper and it always interested me. I suppose The Davinci Code has a lot to answer for re the tourists.
Lol - ok, not weird... Perhaps, from memory, that was just my perception of it :)
If you need speakers to work in free space, then forget all about big Tannoys DCs, as they'll boom all over the place. They need to be used almost right up against a back wall, and into the corners. Free space is a nono, mate.
Marco.
I forget that with Tannoys it is all contradictions ;) Well at least it is one off the shortlist.
Oldpinkman
25-01-2016, 16:35
No not been there but was in that area of France back in 1984. Saw the Henry Lincoln documentary as a nipper and it always interested me. I suppose The Davinci Code has a lot to answer for re the tourists.
Tbh I don't know that the Da Vinci Code has made that much difference. Its a pretty constant tourist thing. The place (RLC -and Couiza, down the hill) is chock full of wierdo's - well "new age discoverers". The house we nearly bought was rented out by an American authoress on books on the subject. A couple of years back for the end of the Mayan calendar they had thousands congregate in the area to walk barefoot up neighbouring Bugarach. When we were there in the summer there was a fair in Esperaza for L'egenertique - and more treks up Bugarach planned. Very colourful and entertaining. And there is the wider cathar castle thing - we have our cathar cross over the fireplace. Scenery is proper mountains. I like proper mountains - with eagles soaring overhead:D
You may not want to be inside listening to HiFi! :cool:
I forget that with Tannoys it is all contradictions ;) Well at least it is one off the shortlist.
Lol - yup, you'd have no chance of them working in open space, such as would be necessary in your room.
For me, I'm glad they're like that, as I'd never be able to get them to work in my little room otherwise! :)
Marco.
Just remember Tannoys are not the only option even if some bigger quality vintage speakers are in consideration. There are several other options there as well.. :D
Returning briefly to cabinets for Tannoy 15" DCs, if I were ever to change from my Lockwood Majors, it'd be to something like this, which are not entirely dissimilar (purely for the looks): http://www.ebay.com/itm/121549858828?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true
Love that '1950s studio control room' aesthetic! :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
27-01-2016, 12:48
lol... they look like Calor Gas heaters.... :)
They don't look to dissimulator to some Lockwood cabs internally though.
Swapped the Akai speakers back in last night. There couldn't really be much more difference between the presentation of these speakers and that of the IMF TLS 50. Talk about chalk and cheese. Decided I deffo prefer the Akais, despite the lack of deep bass.
One option I am now drawn towards - I have two spare 15'' bass drivers for the Akais. I am thinking of building them into large cabs as passive subwoofers that will fit under the existing speakers, and power them from a separate power amp run from the pre-outs on my pre-amp.
I'll try mechanically rolling them off by using either doping or covering the drivers with successive layers of material - I have an idea of using bubble wrap to attenuate the higher frequencies until they blend with the existing speakers. If that doesn't work I can add a dsp unit/capable amp just for the bass units, similar to what Mark (Ynwan) does with his NS1000M.
Not sure how much it will be to have 2 cabs made, or what the volume of the cabs should be as I don't have the T-S parameters for the bass drivers but I am guessing around 100 litres would be sufficient. The idea would not be to get bone crunching bass but to add a bit more weight and power below 100 Hz and give the bottom end a bit of a 'West Coast' feel to it.
I can have the cabs cosmetically matched to the existing speakers at the front so from front on subs and speakers would appear to be all one unit, and leave the sides and back as bare ply to save money.
Opinions, anyone?
Swapped the Akai speakers back in last night. There couldn't really be much more difference between the presentation of these speakers and that of the IMF TLS 50. Talk about chalk and cheese. Decided I deffo prefer the Akais, despite the lack of deep bass.
One option I am now drawn towards - I have two spare 15'' bass drivers for the Akais. I am thinking of building them into large cabs as passive subwoofers that will fit under the existing speakers, and power them from a separate power amp run from the pre-outs on my pre-amp.
I'll try mechanically rolling them off by using either doping or covering the drivers with successive layers of material - I have an idea of using bubble wrap to attenuate the higher frequencies until they blend with the existing speakers. If that doesn't work I can add a dsp unit/capable amp just for the bass units, similar to what Mark (Ynwan) does with his NS1000M.
Not sure how much it will be to have 2 cabs made, or what the volume of the cabs should be as I don't have the T-S parameters for the bass drivers but I am guessing around 100 litres would be sufficient. The idea would not be to get bone crunching bass but to add a bit more weight and power below 100 Hz and give the bottom end a bit of a 'West Coast' feel to it.
I can have the cabs cosmetically matched to the existing speakers at the front so from front on subs and speakers would appear to be all one unit, and leave the sides and back as bare ply to save money.
Opinions, anyone?
You could maybe get Paul to retune the xovers to perhaps suit you and maybe tweek them a tad.
jandl100
27-01-2016, 13:13
Swapped the Akai speakers back in last night. There couldn't really be much more difference between the presentation of these speakers and that of the IMF TLS 50. Talk about chalk and cheese. Decided I deffo prefer the Akais, despite the lack of deep bass.
IMF :zzz: ... although a TLS50 is quite perky, most are a bit slow.
Akai :rock:
I'm not surprised.
Why not try adding a sub like a BK200/400? You can pick them up for a few £100.
jandl100
27-01-2016, 13:23
Returning briefly to cabinets for Tannoy 15" DCs, if I were ever to change from my Lockwood Majors, it'd be to something like this, which are not entirely dissimilar (purely for the looks): http://www.ebay.com/itm/121549858828?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true
Love that '1950s studio control room' aesthetic! :)
Marco.
Ooo - I likes 'em much more than the usual depressingly dated looking Tannoy cabinetry. :thumbsup:
But yes, they are a bit like calor gas heaters. :eyebrows:
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uTkAAOSwa39UwDJd/s-l1600.jpg
IMF :zzz: ... although a TLS50 is quite perky, most are a bit slow.
Akai :rock:
.
Yup that is pretty much it. I could see the IMF being very good with classical, big, grand and expansive is what they do well. I just never listen to classical and they don't really get my juices flowing with rock, although discovering how much bass there actually is on certain recordings has been a revelation
I've already experimented with a subwoofer to reasonable effect, but my thinking was that two subs using the same drivers as the existing speakers would integrate more seamlessly.
jandl100
27-01-2016, 13:39
Yup that is pretty much it. I could see the IMF being very good with classical,
bollox :lol:
My classical choons like it fast and hi-rez. ;)
I think I'll hook them up to the telly. The neighbours will be delighted with that.
It might be worthwhile looking for a pair of inexpensive subs that you could strip the amps from to use with your Akai drivers in their custom cabs.
I do have 1 plate amp already. But since I have a few stereo power amps going spare, would there be any point in getting another plate amp?
walpurgis
27-01-2016, 15:39
Martin. The 15" Akai bass drivers are likely to be pretty efficient. Have you considered using the spare pair wired in series, mounted face to face in a Celestion SL6000 style compact dipole sub?
http://i66.tinypic.com/3326q0z.jpg
The bottom end on these was impressive, very deep and solid, with no boom. Your sub amp could likely provide enough welly and have suitable equalisation.
I do have 1 plate amp already. But since I have a few stereo power amps going spare, would there be any point in getting another plate amp?
I just thought it might be a quick and inexpensive way of getting all the electronics, sockets etc that you would need.
Firebottle
27-01-2016, 15:45
That's what I think I would do with them, as you have 2 a back to back dipole sub sounds perfect :)
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSCbEPQ8UM2AGLTZNJBymZ2wA7E0npR 3t5SH6z4EI2hZVYJ0Xllw
That's a view with the top removed, linky: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54844.0
lol... they look like Calor Gas heaters.... :)
Haha - I see what you mean! I dig them though, especially with *that* provenance...
Marco.
Ali Tait
27-01-2016, 15:52
Another option could be a tapped horn. Liked the bass I've heard from one. Not small though.
bollox :lol:
My classical choons like it fast and hi-rez. ;)
Haha... I think what Macca meant is that they've got the weight and scale to convey the 'grandeur' of large-scale classical (and I agree), but otherwise I know exactly what you mean, and would opt for the faster, more lucid and dynamic presentation you prefer :)
Marco.
Martin. The 15" Akai bass drivers are likely to be pretty efficient. Have you considered using the spare pair wired in series, mounted face to face in a Celestion SL6000 style compact dipole sub?
http://i66.tinypic.com/3326q0z.jpg
The bottom end on these was impressive, very deep and solid, with no boom. Your sub amp could likely provide enough welly and have suitable equalisation.
That option had crossed my mind but I dismissed it as being a bit too technical for me. Would they work with that plate amp I got from you?
walpurgis
27-01-2016, 16:50
That option had crossed my mind but I dismissed it as being a bit too technical for me. Would they work with that plate amp I got from you?
I reckon.
The equalisation on the amp is variable if I recall and in series the drivers would offer about 15 ohms, a nice safe load and they're going to be efficient anyway. The dipole is easy to build. The vertical shaft in the middle in the photo can be ignored, it was the mount for the SL600 satellite speaker and not part of the sub. Two square offcuts of wide and thick kitchen worktop could be enough to start out experimenting with. space them apart using aluminium angle across each corner as a try out.
I'll have to do some reading up. Don't have any spare kitchen worksurface lying about but I suppose I could cannibalise a bit of the actual kitchen...This could be easy - peasy. I mean it won't be but it could be.
In other news the Funk Firm Achromat has arrived courtesy of Ali. Will try it tonight.
Ali Tait
27-01-2016, 18:15
Glad it got there in one piece. :-)
I'm an idiot and left it in the office last night. Can't try it tonight so will be Friday now.
I'll have to do some reading up. Don't have any spare kitchen worksurface lying about but I suppose I could cannibalise a bit of the actual kitchen...This could be easy - peasy. I mean it won't be but it could be.
In other news the Funk Firm Achromat has arrived courtesy of Ali. Will try it tonight.
Nice one. I suspect you'll like it, as its presentation is rather different from that of the Resomat, which you didn't like :)
Marco.
No I wasn't keen on what the Resomat did. It added air and space at the expense of drive and swing.
Yes, that was weird. However, I sincerely doubt the Achromat will do that.
One thing, have you ensured that the one you've bought has the outside 'lip', designed for the Technics platter?
Marco.
I've not bought it I've had a borrow off of Ali. I'm guessing it is the Technics variant. The Technics one is thicker, too.
Yes, you need the Technics variant, as otherwise records won't be properly supported on the outside rim. Yup, and also there are two thicknesses available, 3mm and 5mm. The later sounds notably better.
Marco.
Ali Tait
28-01-2016, 13:26
It is as it fits my 401, same dims as the Techie.
Tried the Achromat. It has the same issue as my cork mat which is that it is not thick enough and the arm is tail up even with the arm pillar height on zero. So I had to do the same as with the cork mat and put a thin Technics felt mat underneath to get the arm level.
So not really an ideal test. I measured the thickness of the Achromat and it appears to be 4mm, which I don't understand as I thought they were 3 or 5 mil thick. Not actually sure another mil would be enough to get the arm level without the felt mat underneath but it might.
In any case I was quite impressed. Sound was a little more etched and solid, tidier, less waffle. Usually changing something like the mat makes a difference but not necessarily an improvement. I felt this was an improvement across the whole range of the sound, not just in one area. Puzzled about the thickness thing, though.
Ali Tait
30-01-2016, 11:09
Yeah it's a good mat. Preferred it with my last arm, but the Resomat sounds better with the Mission arm.
Martin, good stuff, but I suspect you'd get better results by placing a 'spacer' between the cartridge and headshell (to give you the extra 'lift' needed) than using another mat on top of the Achromat, therefore avoiding diluting the beneficial sonic effects of the latter :)
Indeed, experience suggests that it's very likely to be better. A 2mm spacer should do it. There are a few different ones available on ebay, or someone such as Speedy Steve here could knock you one up for not a lot. The extra isolation/better mechanical termination, afforded by the spacer, is also likely to improve SQ ;)
Marco.
I do have a spacer somewhere but that means going through the horror of re-mounting the cartridge on the headshell. If I'm going to do that I might as well get a better headshell, one which doesn't hold the cartridge so high, and that is lighter. I think the Sumiko is too heavy to be optimal with the stock Technics arm and my cartridge.
What about a 3mm achromat under the 5mm... Dunno if it would screw with the sonics though.
As I mentioned this one Ali sent me is 4mm. Adding a second one, even at 3mm, would be too thick, there would be no spindle left on view!
Doh..forgot about the spindle ..silly me!:)
I do have a spacer somewhere but that means going through the horror of re-mounting the cartridge on the headshell. If I'm going to do that I might as well get a better headshell, one which doesn't hold the cartridge so high, and that is lighter. I think the Sumiko is too heavy to be optimal with the stock Technics arm and my cartridge.
Ok, let's get your system properly sorted, and your T/T set-up right! I've just had a look, and I've got the perfect thing (a little Isokinetik non-magnetic stainless steel spacer I had spare). I've also got a spare lighter weight headshell, both of which you can have :)
And... I'll come down and get it all set-up spot on for you. We'd discussed a visit anyway... So, dude, when's your next day off? :cool:
Marco.
Cheers Marco. I'm off Monday. Alan is coming over in the morning at some point. If that's a bit short notice I'm off every Monday all through February.
Yeah, Alan mentioned that he was coming round on Monday, as he was here at mine yesterday. Okies then, let's do Monday. It would be good to meet Alan again, and also having three pairs of ears available to judge things!
If I get there for around 12 noon. How does that suit? :cool:
Marco.
Yes that will be great.
Just worked out that I have enough working equipment to have 5 full systems, including speaker cables and interconnects Four of them could have a turntable too. And I'd still have stuff left over. You'd think I could put a decent system together from that lot. :(
Lol... One for each room? :eyebrows:
We'll get it sorted! You just get the drinks (non-alcoholic) and some munchies in ;)
Marco.
Set one up in the bog... Music always sounds great in there
Not when it is 7' by 5' and freezing!
Lol... That'll make your 'wee wiener' shrivel up all right! :eyebrows:
We've got flush-mounted ceiling speakers in our bathroom (directly above where your head goes, when lying down in the bath), which are connected to the main system upstairs, and coloured 'mood lighting', controlled from a dimmer switch... Quite nice chilling to some nice choons, whilst having a long, relaxing soak... :)
Marco.
Yo muchacho,
Hopefully, after yesterday, you're a tad happier now than you were! ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
02-02-2016, 09:33
Yo muchacho,
Hopefully, after yesterday, you're a tad happier now than you were! ;)
Marco.
Oh F*** - so you've got a bloody valve power amp and paper speakers now Martin have you? :doh:
He had some "paper speakers" to begin with! ;)
Marco.
Much got done yesterday but no time to write it all up at the moment as at work. Suffice to say record deck vastly improved thanks to Marco's ministrations, IMF speakers diagnosed with dodgy capacitors and wonky speaker terminals on Akai speakers fixed, much thanks to Alan (Firebottle). We even had time to listen to some music and thankfully no-one got a parking ticket.
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