View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up
Well folks I got fed up of looking at peoples wonderful pictures of their fabulous systems, usually taken in what looks like an Ideal Home exhibit. Well, compared to my room, anyway.
I used to be pretty house proud up until my father died back in 2009, since then I can't be bothered. No excuse I know, but there is only so long you can let these things slide.
So four days off my mission: to clean house and tidy up the system and the man cave. This was like one of those Chinese puzzles - no-where to put all of the kit accumulated downstairs as upstairs was already full. Oh dear. My plan was to rationalise the storeroom - aka the guest bedroom - which in theory would give plenty of space. Problem: I could not access the spare room. I could not even get to the landing that accesses the spare room. So, with a massive effort of willpower I started hacking away at it like a miner at the coalface. I am out of shape, but frequent tea and fag breaks helped :)
Long story short 4 days later not everything is done but I now have a viable store room with bags of space for more pishanto - ahem I mean vintage kit. I should really have taken before and after pictures but really the 'before' pictures would probably get me sectioned under the Mental Health Act so to compromise here are some pictures of my all new, revamped, everything on one rack lash up:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/room2013001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/room2013001.jpg.html)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/room2013002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/room2013002.jpg.html)
I'm currently awaiting arrival of a new stylus for my Nag MP50, expensive, but I will get more than my moneys worth out of it so who cares? When that gets here I will be testing the all-new Firebottle valve MM stage, so don't forget to tune in next week folks! :)
Well done Martin!
At least you made the effort. All of the rooms in my house need re-decorating. So why haven't I made a start? For the simple reason that there is no room to store furniture, books, records and equipment of one room whilst it is being decorated! It's a bit like those 'tile puzzles'. :scratch:
The Black Adder
02-09-2013, 16:28
Do you still have the Croft pre in there somewhere, Martin?
Do you still have the Croft pre in there somewhere, Martin?
I still have it but it's not in use at the moment. The MM stage is pure brilliance but I cannot get on with the line stage, there is too much gain with the XTZ plus it adds a bit of 'colour' to the sound which some people love but which I don't want with CD, I want the master tape sound. It might be up for sale if anyone is interested.
Well done Martin!
At least you made the effort. All of the rooms in my house need re-decorating. So why haven't I made a start? For the simple reason that there is no room to store furniture, books, records and equipment of one room whilst it is being decorated! It's a bit like those 'tile puzzles'. :scratch:
Thanks Barry. I had to decorate this place when I bought it as it was truly horrendous but as my method is 'everything white' it didn't take too long. Managed to get paint on the carpets and curtains, of course.
Thing Fish
02-09-2013, 18:05
A Gibbo and a Tele. Nice...:)
Audio Al
02-09-2013, 18:41
I used to be pretty house proud up until my father died back in 2009, since then I can't be bothered.
So I am not alone , My dad passed away in 2008 25 / 6 , started a kitchen re furb , I have not touched it since , no tiles on the wall , still cant face it now :(
The Black Adder
02-09-2013, 19:21
I still have it but it's not in use at the moment. The MM stage is pure brilliance but I cannot get on with the line stage, there is too much gain with the XTZ plus it adds a bit of 'colour' to the sound which some people love but which I don't want with CD, I want the master tape sound. It might be up for sale if anyone is interested.
Ah... same with my 25. Had too much gain. A lot of people have this problem but for £25 it's changed by Glenn.. :)
It has to be said that whilst I sometimes look at the rooms, my main interest is the Hifi system so I rarely notice whether a room is nice or not :lol:
Anyhow, Martin, your system is looking pretty neat there... what does it sound like?
It has to be said that whilst I sometimes look at the rooms, my main interest is the Hifi system so I rarely notice whether a room is nice or not :lol:
Anyhow, Martin, your system is looking pretty neat there... what does it sound like?
Good, but not great. I want that super-open mid and top back I had with the Tisbury passive pre, along with the bass drive that I wasn't getting with the Tisbury. if I could put those two things together that would be it - killer system! - but I suspect I am going to have to buy a very expensive pre-amp in order to get what I want. Bollocks, isn't it? :)
Good, but not great. I want that super-open mid and top back I had with the Tisbury passive pre, along with the bass drive that I wasn't getting with the Tisbury. if I could put those two things together that would be it - killer system! - but I suspect I am going to have to buy a very expensive pre-amp in order to get what I want. Bollocks, isn't it? :)
:lol:
Dedicated vinyl cleaning area!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/rca001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/rca001.jpg.html)
Rare Bird
07-09-2013, 12:09
Dedicated vinyl cleaning area!
Do you live on your own Martin?
Nice bit of kit Martin:)
If you mean the Moth that is the best £400 I ever spent :)
Do you live on your own Martin?
Yes, for the last thirteen years. I like the freedom to do as I please, and the quiet. I'd struggle to go back to living with someone unless she was very laid back and understanding, I think.
Rare Bird
07-09-2013, 12:52
Don't blame you.. Wish i lived alone sometimes but being married is all ive known for 28 years..
Ali Tait
07-09-2013, 13:43
Yes, for the last thirteen years. I like the freedom to do as I please, and the quiet. I'd struggle to go back to living with someone unless she was very laid back and understanding, I think.
I was lucky enough to find someone just like that.
Aquired this on Friday - NVA P90 passive pre-amp. Bought it as a bit of a punt, I was hoping to get that same 'straight from the desk' clarity as the Tisbury passive pre but without the loss of impact and 'slam' that meant I could not live with the Tisbury.
Well it does not quite have that incredible open sound of the Tisbury but it is not far off. As a plus bass response and slam are both acceptable, rim shots and snares have impact that they did not have with the Tisbury. It is amazing the lack of noise and mush you get with these passives, it really is a revelation. Only drawback is I have to use the thing at pretty much full attenuation in order to prevent the neighbours from calling the police. I guess my power amp is just too sensitive.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/nva001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/nva001.jpg.html)
The Grand Wazoo
06-10-2013, 10:12
Where does that sit in the NVA range Martin and presumably, the phono input is at line level?
Hi Chris - according to the NVA shop on eBay there is a P50 which is cheaper than the P90. Then there is the stock P90, and then a P90 with fancy stepped attenuator which appears to be the top of the range. This was bought used from an AOS member, the current models do not appear to have the twin pots. The phono stage is line level so a separate head amp is required for vinyl, although a built in phono stage is an option the site does not appear to quote a price for that.
Interestingly it has three outputs so you can bi or tri amp (or connect a couple of powered subs, which would be fun :) ). Another nice touch is a 'direct' input that bypasses the selector gubbins if only using one source - that is how I have it wired up.
The Grand Wazoo
06-10-2013, 10:33
I realised they have several outputs - using those is an approach I'd thoroughly recommend because bi- or tri-amping can bring incredible improvements to a system. I've been sold on it since about 1995. I should think another XTZ would be rather good in your system.
. I should think another XTZ would be rather good in your system.
I won't lie, the thought had crossed my mind...but I already have a pile of unused power amps, not sure I can conscience buying any more of them :)
The Grand Wazoo
06-10-2013, 10:41
Flog 'em!
Buy the XTZ with the proceeds - call it tidying up!!!
I did offer them for sale on here a while back, at giveaway prices but there were no takers. What can you do?
losenotaminute
06-10-2013, 10:53
Don't blame you.. Wish i lived alone sometimes but being married is all ive known for 28 years..
There's no point in getting married, just find someone you hate and give them your house ;)
Just make sure that any power amp choice has a VERY HIGH input impedance (47k absolute minimum I reckon and higher would be better if two amps effectively paralleled), especially if bi-amping is part of the deal with a passive preamp.
Input impedance of the XTZ is quoted as 20K so possibly not a good idea. Unless that just relates to the pre-amp section.
... an Ideal Home exhibit.:)
LOL: The pics I took of my system ... well if only you could have seen what was behind the camera!
Interested in your comment about a RCM. I have only just invested in one, a very basic Spin-Clean. I was astonished, not just in the dirt that came off, but an improvement in sound quality! Unfortunately it is over 5 mins an LP. How long does it take with the Moth?
Moth takes about 3 minutes to clean a typical record, although if it is particularly grungey you could double that, it depends on how long you feel the need to scrub it before vacuuming. It does amaze me how many people there are with mega bucks turntables and cartridges who 'clean' their records with nothing more than a brush or a cloth. Like running a Ferrari on re-treads.
As suggested elsewhere I have a located a mini-jack to phono RCA cable and am using it to run output from the CDP to the pre-amp, giving me control over the output level of the CDP. Early days yet but playing a bit of Doobie Brothers right now and sounds fine - plus I can now select volume level on the pre-amp to taste, whereas previously it was a two-way choice between silent and very loud. Anyone know what the correct ratio to gain on the headphone volume and volume on the pre-amp should be? At the moment I have the headphone volume on '2'. It is a lash-up situation at the moment (of course) but here is a picture anyway (yes I know I need to dust):
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/hps001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/hps001.jpg.html)
The Grand Wazoo
23-11-2013, 12:31
Should sound good, especially as you have invested in so many of those particles of Digital Universal Sound Treatment (D.U.S.T.)!!
Wakefield Turntables
23-11-2013, 12:57
Nice system, I want your cd player...
Nice system, I want your cd player...
Thanks Andrew. The CD player is so over the top I love it just for that. It can be a bit cantankerous; sometimes it will only give you the disc back when IT'S ready to. I will give it a clean in a bit, the flash really shows up dust you can't usually see.
Wakefield Turntables
23-11-2013, 15:42
I Keep looking out for one on e$scum with the idea of having it massively tweeked and then put into use in my 2nd system. But, at £500 for a scrappy example it looks like I might be in for a long wait....... :):)
I waited many years and then 3 came along at once. At £140 delivered I'm very happy with it. Marco has suggested sending it to Audiocom to be 'massively tweaked', maybe I will do that one day.
New Speakers!
Couldn't resist these at the price. I've always been a big fan of the KEF speakers I have heard from the 70s and 80s so I thought I would have a go with these Calindas:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/kef006.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/kef006.jpg.html)
I was concerned that they may not be able to produce enough bass to fill my quite large room, especially as I have to set them up in free space. I shouldn't have worried. Bass is tight and quite well extended, in fact they sound a lot like a typical 70s transmission line speaker, even though they are not. Possibly something to do with those racetrack ABR units being so close to the floor and getting a lot of boundary reinforcement as a result.
Despite chopping and changing kit almost as much as Jerry I have stuck with my Celestion A2s for ten years so putting some different speakers in has been akin to going with a new woman after a decade with the same one - there are some things you get used to which are not there any more and other things which are completely new. They don't have that super-open, almost electrostatic midrange of the A2. On the other hand they do have a tighter bass response. I suspect acclimatisation will take a while...
My seating furniture is traditional rather than modern and low slung so the bass-mid is below ear height and the tweeter even lower so I might experiment with tilting the speakers up a little, although as I listen a good way back this is not as much of a problem as it might seem. I notice that Duncan, the previous owner had them on some custom stands to raise them up about 10 inches or so. I'm surprised he did not get overpowering bass in such a small room with the speakers in the corners. Anyway it does seem that they are intended as a floor-stander. I will be putting a few more hours on them later to see what I think.
Cheers all.
Couple of weeks with these KEFs now and I've had a chance to give them a good evaluation.
Got them set up with a tilt on the front feet to beam them up a bit more towards the listening position and also added a sub to fill in the very bottom end as I was missing some of the low bass from my Celestions on some material. They are not as open as the Celestions in the upper mid when in my usual listening position 18 feet away but sitting closer they sound a lot more detailed. Definitely an 'across the width' rather than a 'down the length' loudspeaker, midfield as opposed to longfield. And they do sparkle in the top quite a bit, an area where the Celestions are more laid back if perhaps ultimately more refined.
A pal of mine who is a pro musician dropped round for a listen on New Year's Eve. He was quite impressed, in fact his comment was 'They're better than your other ones.' Hmmm, well I don't think so but I do respe3ct his opinion he has spent a lot of time in studios and has a very good ear.
One thing I can say is that they piss on a pair of modern, current range floorstanders I have heard recently that are around the grand mark new. And I mean no competition in any area at all.
Hopefully will have some more speakers arriving soon for trials...think Seventies, think Hi-Karate...:)
istari_knight
05-01-2014, 22:54
Hopefully will have some more speakers arriving soon for trials...think Seventies, think Hi-Karate...:)
More cones than an ice cream van ? :eyebrows:
More cones than an ice cream van ? :eyebrows:
Yep - I really wanted some JBL 4342 but that is an impossible dream so I have sought out their non-union Japanese equivalent. Sort of. If they are any good I might get Paul at RFC to completely rebuild them. Incidentally I asked Paul about the possibility of building some 4342 clones and he reckons he could but the cost would be north of £5K - which is an amount I can't really justify spending - but is one hell of a bargain if you can. I'd love to see someone do it :)
walpurgis
06-01-2014, 00:02
Couldn't resist these at the price. I've always been a big fan of the KEF speakers I have heard from the 70s and 80s so I thought I would have a go with these Calindas.
They desperately need stands Martin. 12" or more, it'll clean the bottom end up and improve the imaging. The Calinda is a pretty decent speaker, a very close relative of the Cadenza and 104's. Get them rigged up right and they will surprise you. I'd expect the bass to be more extended than your Celestions, if I recall the KEFs were more or less flat down to 40Hz and rolled of below that, still giving useful bass output at 30Hz. The midrange should be pretty good too. The treble? Well it's a T27, a touch dry, but very detailed and extended!
Well the Celestions have useful output down to 20 Hz and are flat to below 40 so I'm not so sure about that. Plus the Calindas seem to me to be designed as a floorstander. Maybe not. I have got some stands I could try...hmm, you've got me thinking now...
Defo get some stands and/or spikes (or some type of supports) underneath those babies, daftee - it'll make all the difference! :trust:
Marco.
jandl100
06-01-2014, 08:20
Yep, I think you'll get a fair bit more clarity with stands, even a few inches up should make a worthwhile difference. I usually find that 'floorstanders' benefit from being raised a bit. :)
I fondly recall a pair of KEF Cadenzas a schoolmate had back in the early 70s. Spent many hours round his place listening to the likes of Yes, Wishbone Ash and the Allman Brothers. :wheniwasaboy:
Oh yeah. Check out my new Akai loudspeakers. 4 way 6 driver config with three tweeters, two midrangers and 15 inch bass. Only had a quick listen last night, Sinatra Live at the Sands. I was there, man, I was there...
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/akai002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/akai002.jpg.html)
So I have now had time for a bit of an evaluation and a couple of musician friends dropped around for a listen.
They brought some music with them so we had a listen to various material. I deliberately didn't probe for any opinions. The drummer sat there occasionally saying 'marvellous' at various points. He remarked at one point that if he was doing a mix then these speakers would be ideal. the bass player was of the same opinion but thought they lacked deep bass, Given I have them set up free field which is not ideal we all agreed but he also remarked that if you were mainly listening to rock that was not an issue as the bottom end solidity is there but the depth isn't. They both concurred that dynamics and separation were to die for.
For my own part I have never heard a speaker save the QUAD ESL for vocal neutrality and clarity. No shouty, forward midrange here which is something I hate. Save for the lack of deep bass these are very tight speakers with ultra-low distortion and are so very easy to listen to. At some point a previous owner has replaced the spring clip terminals with proper binding posts, I wonder if he did not rejuvenate the crossovers too as there is no hint of wooliness that you might expect from a 40 year old speaker. I'm not quite in love but I am close. Very close.
Crikey I like those Martin and the cabinets look to be bullet proof, literally... :stalks: What model are they matey?
Crikey I like those Martin and the cabinets look to be bullet proof, literally... :stalks: What model are they matey?
Akai SW175. Their top of the range from 1972. Very few pairs still operating in the UK I suspect, although they crop up on Canadian and U.S sale sites occasionally. 94dB sensitivity!
Akai SW175. Their top of the range from 1972. Very few pairs still operating in the UK I suspect, although they crop up on Canadian and U.S sale sites occasionally. 94dB sensitivity!
Wow, nice find ;)
Firebottle
15-01-2014, 07:01
Sounds like an excellent find Martin, I'm sure you'll enjoy those.
:cool: Alan
What an incredible find. They look to be loosely modelled on JBLs?
What an incredible find. They look to be loosely modelled on JBLs?
Yep designed to compete with Altec and JBL in the American market. Along with Sansui, Pioneer, etc. Even Sony did some similar multi-driver monsters back in the day. A very different approach to the modern 'two way with a port' configuration.
Fairly interesting! Please keep us up to date of the listening impressions.. :)
Fairly interesting! Please keep us up to date of the listening impressions.. :)
Ah Mika - this was your fault posting up about your JBLs. That reminded me of an itch I had to scratch. It was a 600 mile round trip to collect these things, worth it though :)
My type of speakers, Martin - quality! I'd hold onto those for a while, if I were you ;)
Marco.
Yeah, you bet. Still fettling at the moment, though. They actually sound better on the floor than on those stands, which are just too tall. They also show up the differences in interconnects too. I think I can squeeze a bit morr out of them given time and some exprrimentation with positionijg.
I've hooked up a sub to the system to try to compensate for the lack of bass. I have it set up in the corner of the room operating from 120Hz down. Whilst it does fill in the lower registers and beefs up the overall sound I have decided that it is also compromising the overall flow of the music. This is despite the fact that I have it connected at line level from the amp and not daisy chained in via speaker cable. Very puzzling but I have certainly lost the magic I heard when I first got the speakers home and was using them just plonked on the floor. I am starting to think they were designed to be used that way, or at best on those low H shaped stands with castors that used to be commonplace in the 'seventies. Since the floor is concrete with thick underlay and carpet there is no vibration issue to worry about so I think I am going to return to that placement method and see if the magic returns.
How about low heavyweight stands (or drill and sand fill them), spiked to the floor? This will recover some of the deep bass without spoiling the character of the speakers.
Would be worth a try but there does not seem to be many stands that fit that description that are commercially available. They really need a stand about 6 inches tall, there is not much out there that will fit the bill. I know, having looked in vain for low stands to suit my Ditton 44s.
The Black Adder
18-01-2014, 14:12
Great speakers are those, mart.... bet they sound well smart.
eBay?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATACAMA-SL300-SPEAKER-STANDS-/310844409033?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item485fc544c9
Mr Kipling
18-01-2014, 14:28
Seeing those stands had me wondering if anyone has ever used thermalite building blocks for either supports, plinths or stands. Never thought of it myself until now.
eBay?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATACAMA-SL300-SPEAKER-STANDS-/310844409033?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item485fc544c9
300 mil tall which in English is 12 inches. Way too tall. Plus collection only from Milton Keynes which is not exactly local for me. This is part of the problem I encountered before, no-one wants to ship stands or racks as they are too bulky and heavy.
Seeing those stands had me wondering if anyone has ever used thermalite building blocks for either supports, plinths or stands. Never thought of it myself until now.
Yes I have tried it, long ago. It makes the bass lumpy and thuddy.
300 mil tall which in English is 12 inches. Way too tall.
I must have the scale of these speakers wrong. Less than 12" strikes me as so low that perhaps another mounting, rather than a stand as such, may be preferable. Tall cones, perhaps?
I must have the scale of these speakers wrong. Less than 12" strikes me as so low that perhaps another mounting, rather than a stand as such, may be preferable. Tall cones, perhaps?
The speakers are about 30 inches tall. The problem I have is that due to room layout they must be set up in free space and the bass loading is not designed for that. Hence they sound better close to the floor where they get at least some boundary reinforcement. Yes that does put the tweeters and mids below ear height but there are lots of them :) plus I listen 18 feet back so that is not a major issue in practice. I have a couple of telephone directories, I am going to try sitting them on them. A little ad-hoc I know but in this game experimentation is everything. Cones are a good suggestion I will look into that. Don't want to pay mega money for 'audiophile' cones though...
Mr Kipling
18-01-2014, 16:29
Thanks Martin. Saved myself a wasted effort.
Decided that the phone books were a stupid idea so speakers are now sat back on the floor. Have kicked off with the last album I listened to last night, tull's 'a little light music'. Wow what a difference! The bass and the musical flow are all back. The sub is switched off. I know it goes against all received wisdom to just plonk speakers on the floor like this but the massive difference speaks for itself. They now sound perfectly balaned tonally. Now for a couple of hours of listening :) ...
Perhaps taller cones at the front and a shorter one at the rear are all you need, to tilt them up a touch. Or ones with a thread so that you can experiment.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Billet-Aluminum-Cone-End-Caps-for-1-1-2-Grips-for-Harley-Davidsons-/380801442475?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58a988e2ab
Thanks for the link Martin. Gordon has offered to make me some using real wood from trees! However things are now sounding sublime so why tinker? One last piece in the jigsaw is my passive pre which is going to have some custom stepped pots fitted to resolve my gain problem. If that works out then I will finally have that 'straight from the desk' studio sound I have been chasing for so long. That will be the end of my box swapping. I am daring to hope so anyway.
walpurgis
18-01-2014, 20:26
Martin, if you like the Akai speakers, what about the Sansui equivalent? These are not too far from you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sansui-sp-x8700-220watt-speakers-/310847724247?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item485ff7dad7
Martin, if you like the Akai speakers, what about the Sansui equivalent? These are not too far from you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sansui-sp-x8700-220watt-speakers-/310847724247?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item485ff7dad7
I dont have car and chesterfield is quite a distance away. However they look to be in great condition and I bet they sell cheap. Anyone looking to discover how loudspeaker design has for the most part gone backwards in the last 30 years should grab them. If they are as good as these akais they will be one happy bunny.
jandl100
19-01-2014, 08:38
I'm just catching up with this thread after a week or two ...
Yep, from what you say these vintage Akai's remind me of a pair of JBL L110 speakers I had. Old design, paper coned mids and 10 inch paper woofer - they were just so alive and in-tune with the music.
There is a lot to what you say here ....
.... Anyone looking to discover how loudspeaker design has for the most part gone backwards in the last 30 years ....
I moved on to the JBLs after a couple of years of audiophile sophistication from a pair of Kharma Ceramique 3 ceramic coned, resin-formed cabinet £5k rrp high tech wonders.
Doh! :doh: the JBLs were just so much more like real live music!
Great find with those Akais, Martin. :thumbsup:
And don't fret about the on the floor thing - you haven't just plumped 'em down :nono: you have carefully sited them after much experimentation! :lol:
And don't fret about the on the floor thing - you haven't just plumped 'em down :nono: you have carefully sited them after much experimentation! :lol:
lol Many a true word spoken in jest, Jerry.
I did want some JBLs from the same era but they are so rare in this country and if they do come up they are way down south and collection only. I was exposed to them as a teenager (mate's dad's systems) and it has been a constant source of frustration to me ever since that I could never get any of my multitude of lash ups to sound like those old JVC - JBL set ups even though on paper the more modern kit with the latest technology blah blah should piss on them. I'd put it down to the rosy glow of nostalgia and convinced myself that if I went back now and listened to those systems I would be disappointed.
It strikes me that conventional wisdom as per the literature (I.e the 'flat earth' hi-fi magazines) would say:
1) plonked on floor - will give you wooly, boomy bass and curtail the midrange
2) 15 inch woofers - slow and sluggish, poor bass timing
3) Multiple drivers - timing will be all over the place, complex crossover will sap the life out of the sound, just done to impress the rubes in the showroom who buy on driver count.
4) Wide baffle will mean poor stereo imaging
And yet in this case none of those things are true.
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that I have now finally managed to get what I want, even though it was originally just a casual purchase made out of sheer interest and curiosity. Box swapping got me a result in the end!
brian2957
19-01-2014, 09:21
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that I have now finally managed to get what I want, even though it was originally just a casual purchase made out of sheer interest and curiosity. Box swapping got me a result in the end![/QUOTE]
Wow ! That's some statement Martin . I'm really pleased for you :) I've been doing this hifi thing for over 30 years now and I've never been able to make that statement . I've came close a couple of times but there's always been a niggling doubt which has sooner or later manifested itself in yet another change of equipment . When I've heard what I consider to be ideal stuff it's always been out of my grasp financially . Like a lot of the members here I've discovered that the route to audio Nirvanna probably lies in the past ( 2nd hand gear ) rather than in the present or future . I hope your system continues to please you like this for a very long time mate.
The old JBL L100-T speakers I used to have are still going strong in a friend's system (after a re-foam). They have similar characteristics of fast, punchy sound with a lively character and surprisingly good titanium tweeter. Easy to drive, too.
[]
Wow ! That's some statement Martin . I'm really pleased for you :) I've been doing this hifi thing for over 30 years now and I've never been able to make that statement . I've came close a couple of times but there's always been a niggling doubt which has sooner or later manifested itself in yet another change of equipment . When I've heard what I consider to be ideal stuff it's always been out of my grasp financially . Like a lot of the members here I've discovered that the route to audio Nirvanna probably lies in the past ( 2nd hand gear ) rather than in the present or future . I hope your system continues to please you like this for a very long time mate.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Brian. I know what you mean about the little niggles but I have struggled to find fault with this set up and as someone who is guilty of listening to the kit rather than the music that is quite a big statement to make I know. Having said that it has taken me 25 years to get this far and in any case there is still the turntable to work on since that end of things is far from perfect although not bad :) All my evaluation is done via CD since it is far more of a known quantity than vinyl, IMO anyway. And I still have my hot-rodded passive pre to come so the tinkering is not quite over yet....
The old JBL L100-T speakers I used to have are still going strong in a friend's system (after a re-foam). They have similar characteristics of fast, punchy sound with a lively character and surprisingly good titanium tweeter. Easy to drive, too.
That would be this one, Martin?
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/jbl.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/jbl.jpg.html)
They seem to be quite cheap and plentiful the other side of the pond but you don't see many come up for sale over here. I'm guessing your Ushers sound a bit better ;)
They seem to be quite cheap and plentiful the other side of the pond but you don't see many come up for sale over here. I'm guessing your Ushers sound a bit better ;)
They do, but the point is those JBLs (and your picture is correct) give you a lot for the money and do nothing badly. A great used bargain, but watch the bass drivers for foam rot.
jandl100
20-01-2014, 07:28
Box swapping got me a result in the end!
Yay! :yay: boxswapping rules!
My old JBLs were like this -->
http://www.ssaudio.co.kr/ssaudiocokr/item/4279_B.gif :thumbsup:
They do, but the point is those JBLs (and your picture is correct) give you a lot for the money and do nothing badly. A great used bargain, but watch the bass drivers for foam rot.
I'm really pleased for you Martin and you've raised a number of very interesting points in your recent posts.
Firstly, what you say RE speaker design going backwards: I think that there are two issues here. One is that there are many more fashionable budget speakers designed and made down to a price to sell (and by budget, I mean manufacturing budget) at a large profit so you certainly are not getting quality design or componentry for the cash with a large number of smaller boxes these days. Secondly you mention multi-driver speakers large cones and complex crossovers. Well its a hifi myth (and lie) that these things cannot work well together. The trick with passive crossover design is to limit the number of inductors in the signal path, use good quality components, and ensure phase alignment between drive units is optimised as close to zero at crossover point as possible. This means choosing drivers that have steep enough acoustic roll off slopes and low resonance distortion characteristics to work well together so that lower order passive (1st and 2nd order) crossovers can be largely employed.
Large drivers can have similar transient response to small ones if their excursion is limited and they have a decent (low) enough Q for adequate damping. JBLs of old were pretty darned good even by today's standards as were a host of other 60's, 70's and 80's speakers (in particular). As you're finding out, they can be real bargains if you can track a decent pair down and refresh crossovers etc if needed.
The point about speaker design moving backwards. Well strictly speaking, this is not true at all. Speaker design has moved forwards with the development of aids like the TS parameters, materials technology, test kit and development the same way as any other technology. Its just that to buy speakers designed without the same sort of compromises that mass marketeers foist on the public as a general rule today, (ie as WAS done several decades ago) you have to pick carefully and expect to pay more. Quality costs unfortunately and materials, most especially cabinets, are not cheap if you want good 'uns!
Really delighted for you Martin and would love to hear them some day!
Idlewithnodrive
20-01-2014, 11:17
Seeing those stands had me wondering if anyone has ever used thermalite building blocks for either supports, plinths or stands. Never thought of it myself until now.
Yep, using them now, under my Ditton 44's. Very heavy and solid, sonically dead (just try the rap test - ouch ;)) and the right height, all for pennies.
Sound fantastic, look dreadful.
Hi Paul
I think you might be getting your Martins mixed up since you have quoted Martin T and then addressed the points I was making.
In any case I don't disagree with anything you have said in your post. I was careful to state that speaker design had mostly moved backwards and that is for the reasons you mention. It is interesting that your latest speakers look like something from the late seventies or early eighties (very large standmounter, wide baffle), something which no mass market manufacturer has done for a long time. I am guessing for cost/profit reasons As you say good cabs are expensive - and heavy - which is a significant cost factor if you are shipping them in volume where shipping price increases in tandem with weight and size. You'll recall we talked about you building me some JBL clones but the cost was about twice what I was thinking of spending, maximum so I had to shelve that idea. If we had gone ahead and you had built me something like that sounded similar to these Akais then frankly I would have been delighted. It is what I have been after for a long time however I also appreciate they would not be to everyone's taste. I'd be interested in your thoughts as to how they could be fettled to improve them, obviously taking a crossover rejuvenation/rebuild as read.
Hi Paul
I think you might be getting your Martins mixed up since you have quoted Martin T and then addressed the points I was making.
In any case I don't disagree with anything you have said in your post. I was careful to state that speaker design had mostly moved backwards and that is for the reasons you mention. It is interesting that your latest speakers look like something from the late seventies or early eighties (very large standmounter, wide baffle), something which no mass market manufacturer has done for a long time. I am guessing for cost/profit reasons As you say good cabs are expensive - and heavy - which is a significant cost factor if you are shipping them in volume where shipping price increases in tandem with weight and size. You'll recall we talked about you building me some JBL clones but the cost was about twice what I was thinking of spending, maximum so I had to shelve that idea. If we had gone ahead and you had built me something like that sounded similar to these Akais then frankly I would have been delighted. It is what I have been after for a long time however I also appreciate they would not be to everyone's taste. I'd be interested in your thoughts as to how they could be fettled to improve them, obviously taking a crossover rejuvenation/rebuild as read.
Hi Martin,
yes, there's several reasons why wide baffle designs have fallen out of fashion, including cost, footprint, diffraction and dispersion issues etc. There's a false premise today that only narrow baffle speakers "image" which is nonsense. The baffle width is only one of three main considerations, the other two being crossover point to the tweeter and off-axis response of the mid/woofer. Most of today's fashion boxes use narrow baffles and compensate for lowering efficiency by adding more woofers/mid-woofers in a 2.5-way configuration to regain bass sensitivity at the loss of efficiency since they require more current to generate the equivalent SPL of a single driver/large baffle configuration). They really need to employ baffle step correction filters unless placed tight up against rear walls but FEW do. This results quite often in a mid-forward presentation and often it is difficult to get high degrees of tonal accuracy from very narrow baffles.
Going wide brings it's own issues including more onerous requirements for baffle stiffness and resonance and choice of drivers and design to minimise diffraction issues (along with rounding cab edges and off-setting drivers so they are not equi-distant all round), but done properly, as I believe the Rhapsodys illustrate well, bring efficiency and sensitivity gains, tonal accuracy and other advantages. It is more expensive to design and manufacture the cabs, quite a bit more, but I favour the approach. It is the way speakers used to be designed and it has a major benefit in that it can simplify the internal electronics needed which further benefits sound quality. There will (and are) other designers and manufacturers who wont agree and have their own ways of doing things and I fully respect their reasoning and arguments providing that decent sound quality is their end game. The way I do it is the way I like to do it for well researched reasoning and I happen to like larger cabs as a piece of furniture too! Cab size at the end of the day is mainly dictated by the TS parameters of the drivers and since most of todays drivers can generate decent response in surprisingly small cabinets, the baffles have naturally come down in width which has the WAF benefits, imaging without the need to worry as much about low crossover points etc. I have nothing against narrow cabs at all, its just the volume I needed for my cabs could have been generated by a tall skinny cab which needed placing close to a rear wall, or by the design I have now which doesn't.
We can have a chat if you want to call about how you might want to improve them in the future but given the age, the obvious place to start would be crossovers.
I think you might be getting your Martins mixed up
Well, it is a quality name ;)
realysm42
20-01-2014, 20:53
Well, it is a quality name ;)
Seconded.
Idlewithnodrive
21-01-2014, 11:05
Seconded.
Thirded :doh:
bigmarty
24-01-2014, 18:53
Seconded.
Thirded :D
Got my passive pre back from having fancy stepped attenuators fitted to solve my gain problem. Excellent. Hook it up go to play a CD and my Technics is having none of it. Sits there endlessley spinning and clicking away to itself like a demented R2-D2.
Bollocks.
Still I have plenty of other CD players. Hooked up a Sony 791e. Put on CD. Oh....where has my fantastic, near perfect sound gone to? This just sounds...ordinary. Sound coming out of speakers, not the majesty of the recording laid bare in the space above and around them. Vocalists and instruments are no longer 'in the room'. The stepped attenuators are doing their job, no issue with gain and plenty of room to maneuvere on the pots. Treied to convince myself it still sounds good but is just a bit different from before. Failed. You can't lie to your gut.
Is it the pre-amp? Or is it the CD player?
Swap back to the XTZ pre amp (this costs a £70 premium over the power amp alone and includes a DAC and MC and MM stages so not exactly high end) - nope, still doesn't sound like it did. So must be the CD player. Or I have somehow damaged the speakers. Unlikely, that last one but it had me concerned. Put some vinyl on to check - again using the XTZ MM stage. The Eagles 'the Long Run' was to hand. Holy Christ! This sounded immensely good, the best I have ever heard it by a margin. Totally out of the box sound, amazing clarity, realism and dynamics. Speakers are fine - but my without my trusty SLP1200 I am reduced to a 'meh' sound with digital. Great. how long did I have my 'perfect sound, bloody brilliant, quest is at an end'? Ten days. If there is a God he's laughing now.
Conclusion - I need to fix the Technics or get another or something that does that same super-neutral big-boned sound. Any ideas?
The first thing is to carefully clean the laser lens in the Technics. The next thing is to get it off to a repair centre. That deck is well worth getting sorted before you think of replacing it.
Lash up as it stands today with the NVA P90SA and Parasound CDP1000 in circuit. The NVA has been modded with top quality stepped attenuators so I no longer have any issue setting volume levels. I can have the system running anywhere between whisper quiet and PA loud. Plus I don't get any lack of slam or attack with this pre-amp, you would never think there was a passive pre in the circuit, except for the wonderful lack of grain, noise or glare in the sound. Not to say you can't get an active pre that does that but have you seen the prices?
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/lashupfeb001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/lashupfeb001.jpg.html)
Jury is out on the Parasound at the moment. I am really still in withdrawal from the Technics slp1200 - all my other players sound so coloured by comparison, especially through the Akais. Through the Celestions the Parasound was very 'high end' sounding with that little bit of added richness. Through the Akais that richness just gets shown up for what it is - artifice. Plus it has scored low on my ultimate test CD - 'Sinatra, Live at the Sands'. The Sony 940QS scores quite a bit higher. The brass instruments on this should sound like the voice of God and with the Parasound they are a bit 'synthisised'. On the other hand the Parasound has that 'hear through' sound that the Technics also has but that the Sony can't manage. I wonder if that is down to the power supplies and how good and quiet they are and nothing to do with the transport mech or DAC chips? Anyway I will try different interconnects later today, probably won't help but worth a go I think.
I take it you've tried the basic things on the Technics CDP, then?
No. I've not done anything with it. I read that attempting to clean the lense may damage it. The pro shop agreed and said it was a last resort. I may have a fiddle with it tomorrow,see if some time on the naughty step has sorted it out.
Mr Kipling
11-02-2014, 20:24
What's the problem with cleaning the lens (by hand. Would never use one of them automatic ones that you play like a cd). Gary on the Technics SL P1200 thread cleaned his without problem.
Got a faulty one last night and hoping to get it working.
istari_knight
11-02-2014, 20:47
What's the problem with cleaning the lens (by hand. Would never use one of them automatic ones that you play like a cd). Gary on the Technics SL P1200 thread cleaned his without problem.
Got a faulty one last night and hoping to get it working.
Quite right. I've cleaned dozens of lenses with a little bit of 90% isopropyl on a cotton bud... Works a treat.
Whats the problem with it ? Not reading the TOC or skipping ?
Mr Kipling
11-02-2014, 20:58
Hi James.
The motor doesn't spin the disc. Seems to be a common problem.
istari_knight
11-02-2014, 21:11
Ah, a clean probably won't help then. In players like that the problem could be anything.
Mr Kipling
11-02-2014, 21:22
Typically if you start by hand it will then initialize and play - at least that's what I've read. Don't really know a great deal about cdps to be honest James. Found an informative site though that I've started a thread with.
If it's a motor with brushes, then leaving it spinning for a good while should clean them. However, I suspect it's brushless (like a stepper motor), in which case it could be friction in the bearing, requiring lubrication, or a fault in the drive electronics.
RochaCullen
12-02-2014, 14:23
No. I've not done anything with it. I read that attempting to clean the lense may damage it. The pro shop agreed and said it was a last resort. I may have a fiddle with it tomorrow,see if some time on the naughty step has sorted it out.
If you are finding that its becoming increasingly fussy about playing long CDs, cleaning the lens really helps. When I got mine, the only CD it would play straight away was Kind of Blue, and anything longer it just kept reading and reading. So after a bit of reading, I pulled the little rubber nipple off of the lens, and took a look at the lens. It was caked with gunk. I cleaned the lense, as mentioned above, with some cotton and isopropyl. And it plays perfectly now, the odd time it doesnt stop spinning when you hit stop, but that only happens the odd time.
I still think we need to find someone who has the kit to refurb these. I mentioned in a thread I started previously that such a person existed locally to me, but he threw away all the gear as the need for it started to drop, which is a real pity. Finding someone with the jig etc. would be a real boon if we can.
Nathan
Mr Kipling
12-02-2014, 21:53
In the manual download (38 pages) there is actually a small section on cleaning the lens complete with an illustration. Apparently Technics produced a cleaning kit for just this purpose.
Brilliant info, thanks all. I'll see if I can get a cleaning kit otherwise may take mychances with the cotton bud. Although I suspect it may be another issue than crud on the lense.
istari_knight
12-02-2014, 23:03
In the service manual there's an illustration of the cleaning kit & it look like a bottle of isopropyl, a few cotton buds and a dust blower like you would use for a camera lense.
Mooching around Sainsbury yesterday and spied a Belkin 'Laptop and HDTV Cleaning Kit' reduced to clear £2.50 According to the blurb it is an alcohol free gel that evaporates with no residue. Comes with a micro-fibre cloth and is specifically useable on lenses.
So gave it a go. Gave the whole compartment, not just the lens of the SLP1200 a good spray and a wipe with the cloth. Plumbed it in. Now it won't even register that it has a disc in it won't spin or read. :(
I noticed that there was still a bit of dampness inside so I left the top open and went and had a shower hoping it might sort itself out once dry.
An hour later and it seems to be working fine! Read the first disc in no problem - took a bit of time to start playing from pressing 'play' though, but as of this moment it does seem to be back in business. Result! and thanks to all who suggested trying a clean :)
Mr Kipling
16-02-2014, 16:59
Wish mine was working. . .
istari_knight
16-02-2014, 17:02
Wish mine was working. . .
Send it to Martin, he'll give it the evil eye & post it back :D
... That is remarkably lucky that it came back to life, I've never had that happen :scratch: Either way, RESULT !
Wish mine was working. . .
What is wrong with it do you know? I might be able to get hold of a doner unit could have the parts you need still functional.
Mr Kipling
16-02-2014, 17:38
I bought it knowing it wouldn't spin the disc when loaded hoping it would be something simple like the motor or the spindle needing lubricating or the door sensor. Typically, it's none of them. I stripped the transport and put it back and stil nothing. There's the motor control panel that has an AN6914 chip which I was going to replace; found a supplier on ebay. There's also the motor drive panel which has a chip which I can't find anywhere - AN8290S.
Bit disappointed with the condition. It came from a studio as part of a pair. It failed early on and was said to have been stored away. It appears to have been opened.up a number of times judging by the screws and the top half has paint marks - on the inside! These were mentioned, but I was expecting.them on the outside.
I'll check the 1210 circuit diagram, Stephen. I think many of the Technics ICs are shared between these designs and it may be cheaper for you to source a spare PCB and rescue the chip you need.
RochaCullen
16-02-2014, 18:47
I started another thread in the hope of finding someone who had the special kit required to service these things.
Unfortunately, those ICs are not in the 1210 circuit. Ah well, it was worth a try.
Mr Kipling
16-02-2014, 22:39
Thanks anyway Martin (T). As you can see there's not a great deal on the control board just the ic, a 2SA124 which is ok, 3 caps and a few resistors. The drive board has a few more components and it's all surface mount.
Thanks Martin. Having another would be handy to check panels but I wouldn't want to gut it. I don't know how economic it would be though.
11585
I'm intending to offer a tenner for the doner but I'll go to twenty at a push. Otherwise they can bin it.
Mine did refuse to read a cd earlier, DSTOM, but that is the only one. Even so I suspect it is still not 100%
RochaCullen
16-02-2014, 22:50
Don't blame it refusing to read that cd. ;)
Mr Kipling
16-02-2014, 23:06
I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for a donor. And from what I've read on the web they're not the best at tracking and can be a bit picky over what they want to play.
The Grand Wazoo
16-02-2014, 23:16
Sorry to butt in here chaps but, if you don't mind, I'd like to point out a small technicality.....
This is a donor:
http://blog.itriagehealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/blood-donor-blog.jpg
Whereas, this is a doner:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_to9MK4SPT2M/TDJKikeVyHI/AAAAAAAAAL4/rRGEyV-Uki0/s1600/kebab.gif
....as you were!
Sorry to butt in here chaps but, if you don't mind, I'd like to point out a small technicality.....
this is a doner:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_to9MK4SPT2M/TDJKikeVyHI/AAAAAAAAAL4/rRGEyV-Uki0/s1600/kebab.gif
Made me hungry
Sorry to butt in here chaps but, if you don't mind, I'd like to point out a small technicality.....
This is a donor:
http://blog.itriagehealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/blood-donor-blog.jpg
Whereas, this is a doner:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_to9MK4SPT2M/TDJKikeVyHI/AAAAAAAAAL4/rRGEyV-Uki0/s1600/kebab.gif
....as you were!
I was going to post something in a similar vein and then thought, sod it, I'll order one instead... hehe
Mr Kipling
16-02-2014, 23:34
I'm putting the kettle on. Think I'll have a few Hob-Nobs.
walpurgis
17-02-2014, 00:51
Sorry to butt in here chaps but, if you don't mind, I'd like to point out a small technicality.....
This is a donor:
http://blog.itriagehealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/blood-donor-blog.jpg
Whereas, this is a doner:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_to9MK4SPT2M/TDJKikeVyHI/AAAAAAAAAL4/rRGEyV-Uki0/s1600/kebab.gif
....as you were!
And this is a doughnut:
11586
Damn, it's early in the morning and you've made me hungry!
Reminds me of the 'doner' cards you could get from Viz: 'I would like someone to help themselves to my kebab after my death'
Anyway point taken I've always got time for the Grammar Police - afternoon, constable.
And this is a doughnut:
11586
And this is a numpty:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/822/hmcg.jpg
Marco.
Rare sighting of my Mk1 DIY loudspeakers:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/hmspeakers003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/hmspeakers003.jpg.html)
2 way with 8 inch Audax mid/bass drivers. 50 litre cab using 3 quarter inch chipboard all round, glued and screwed and with pine internal bracing. Got a cabinet maker pal to build the cabs, they are very solid. This was back in the early 9os so no computers, the calculations were all done on the back of an envelope with the equations and a calculator. Cabs were near perfect volume to get the most from the driver. Bass performance was great, deep, free and easy, but I could never get the mids to sound right despite much tinkering with the crossover. Probably because I didn't have a freaking clue what I was doing.
There was also a Mk11 with similar cab volume but taller and less deep. That used MDF instead of chipboard, was ported and had an 8 inch Kevlar driver run all the way up to a Motorola Piezo tweeter. That one I 'designed' for a friend, he was sick of blowing tweeters playing high octane dance music. The beauty of the Motorola is that it needs no filter and you cant blow it up.
The light is fantastic here this morning so thought I would try to take a good system photograph. Didn't really manage it but here it is anyway:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/march14001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/march14001.jpg.html)
Ali Tait
09-03-2014, 09:33
Is that a Firebottle stage I spy there on the floor?
Is that a Firebottle stage I spy there on the floor?
It certainly is. MM version, tasty bit of kit. Even a studio sound purist like me has to have a bit of valves 'n' vinyl in his life :) It doesn't normally live on the floor but as usual the lash-up is in a state of flux.
In the meantime...
Gripped! Sorted! Let's Graphic Equalize!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/equalize001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/equalize001.jpg.html)
Check out the funky power button that lights up green. Adorable. I only bought this just so I can replicate that scene from Risky Business...just need to get some Wayfarers now :)
The Barbarian
09-03-2014, 10:06
You know EQ's are banned on AOS
:lolsign:
You know EQ's are banned on AOS
:lolsign:
I thought they were allowed providing it was in second systems? Shit, better take that photo down or I will be getting a visit lol :)
Ali Tait
09-03-2014, 10:41
Aye, the boys will be round. I'd take a wee holiday if I were you.
The FB is indeed very good, I've the MM/MC version on demo, liked it enough to ask Alan to build me a balanced two box version.
I thought they were allowed providing it was in second systems? Shit, better take that photo down or I will be getting a visit lol :)
:spank:
Aye, the boys will be round. I'd take a wee holiday if I were you.
The FB is indeed very good, I've the MM/MC version on demo, liked it enough to ask Alan to build me a balanced two box version.
Sweet. That would be two boxes with the power supply in one of them I guess? I don't really understand phono stages. Some have virtually no components and then you have something like the Paradise that seems to have thousands.
Ali Tait
09-03-2014, 11:06
Aye, that's it, there's thread on it, Alan posted a couple of pics of the completed build this morning.. I specced decent components but nothing at silly prices.
Mr Kipling
16-03-2014, 09:29
Just a thought. Why not ask the shop you visit what they would charge to wire the dac input on the back panel so it can used with something with a digital out as a transport? You can't give up on it Martin. There's got to be a solution.
Just a thought. Why not ask the shop you visit what they would charge to wire the dac input on the back panel so it can used with something with a digital out as a transport? You can't give up on it Martin. There's got to be a solution.
Nice idea but if it won't play it won't work as a transport either. I have not given up hope but it is on the back burner for now as I have to have something that works and doesn't mess me about. Which is currently a Pioneer 575 universal player that is doing quite a good job.
It is interesting that of all the players I have the best sound through the main rig is the Technics, followed by the Pioneer, then the Samsung Blu-ray machine. My other CD players - 2 Sonys and a Parasound are way too forward through the Akais to be a good listen. I think these players spotlight the midrange and the Akais don't like that being too unforgiving but they all sound excellent through the home cinema system (even with the graphic equaliser in circuit). The Technics is so deliberately neutral that it works and I think the Pioneer and the Samsung work well because they just have cd replay as an added feature (as they are primarily intended for video) and no-one has tried to tweak the sound to jazz it up at all they have just stuck a chip in there that will do the job. So whilst through regular speakers they sound bland an boring through the Akais they sound 'natural'.
This is what the Akais look like with the grilles on. They are not the original grilles I am pretty sure but someone at some point has made a good job of them. Check out my antique gas fire!:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/grill003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/grill003.jpg.html)
Mr Kipling
16-03-2014, 10:27
No. I was meaning use the 1200's dac and something else as the transport.
No. I was meaning use the 1200's dac and something else as the transport.
Ah got you now! Sorry I had just got up and had a bit to drink last night so a bit fuzzy. Yes, that is a good idea assuming it is possible. Only problem is that I do find that all transports sound different even through the same DAC even though theoretically they shouldn't so that would require some careful matching to get right. I'll find out if it can be done.
Gordon Steadman
16-03-2014, 11:00
Check out my antique gas fire!:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/grill003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/grill003.jpg.html)
I reckon the sound is going to be best described as warm then?:)
Mr Kipling
16-03-2014, 11:13
I suppose it would be a question of cost and the outcome being unknown. As you say transports sound different and perhaps the qualities you hear with the Technics is down to a combination of its transport and dac which would be lost if either were substituted.
Yep that is pretty much it. But it would at least prevent the Technics from becoming just a very large and heavy ornament :)
Technics SL6 in the house - set up and working:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/sl6002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/sl6002.jpg.html)
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/sl6003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/sl6003.jpg.html)
Such a dinky little thing compared to the SL1200. But it has linear tracking! How does it sound? Well not as good as the SL1200 but that does have a Nagaoka MP50 on it and this has, well, whatever it came with. tried a sacrificial 12 inch first and it didn't sound like it was eating it so it doesn't seem in bad condition but I do intend to get a cart with a better tip this week - Ah! the exciting world of the P-mount cartridge opens up :) Included in the auction were 4 rather natty Audio Technica isolation feet and a spirit level. I haven't tried the feet yet.
The lash-up in general has moved on, or sideways, I have a sub tuned in now (took a few hours) which I don't use with every type of music but which puts a bit of bottom end into the sound that was lacking due to speaker placement issues. CD currently being done with a Pioneer 575A universal player. Sounds good, could be bettered. Fortunately I am starting to forget how good the SLP1200 player was. Here is everything as it stands today - note the Firebottle valve MM stage being deployed here:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/sl6001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/sl6001.jpg.html)
It's a shame about the SL-P1200. I have a friend who had one of those SL6s and it sounded surprisingly good - surprisingly as I didn't expect anything with the arm built into the lid to sound good at all!
Listening to it now it is surprisingly good except for a trace of hum.
istari_knight
01-04-2014, 23:06
How bigs that sub ? :stalks:
How bigs that sub ? :stalks:
Not that big. What do want, exact measurements? lol
You don't expect me to use a small sub do you? That's a contradiction in terms ;) It's really a bass reinforcement speaker from the days of Dolby Surround. Twin 8 inch drivers, will operate up to 140Hz but I have got it close to the minimum low pass about 40 Hz and at quite low volume. Just fills in the very bottom but you don't notice it unless you turn it off whilst something bassy is playing.
istari_knight
02-04-2014, 15:31
Fair enough :D
In that piccy it looks to be the same size as the stand which makes it quite big... Unless the strand's small ? :scratch:
I've got an REL Strata here but haven't used it in 3 years, maybe I should rig it up again ? It is ported though and sounds a bit ploddy for music IIRC.
stupinder
15-04-2014, 12:40
Used to have a Technics SLDL1 many moons ago and really enjoyed it - though it was pretty much my first TT so i was bound to. Similar in concept to the SL6 in that it was a linear tracker, P Mount cart deck. Technics also did a version called the SLQL1 which was quartz locked i seem to recall.
The sl6 is a quartz lock design too. In character it is very similar to an sl1200 but perhaps without as much oomph behind it for want of a better word. Truth be told I am hopeless at setting up cartridges and have struggled to get the absolutely best results from my nag mp50 so I am hoping with a little fettling and a high quality p-mount that it will take over as my vinyl source. I love my vinyl and have a fair size collection but it is a secondary source for me and I dont attempt to pursue perfection with it as I do with digital.
In interesting session yesterday - had a bit of a pre-amp bake-off. Regular readers may recall I am a bit of a fan of the passive pre-amp approach so there were three passive pre amps involved - my NVA P90SA, the Lightspeed LDR kit and the Tortuga Audio LDR kit. The kits were built by Jason (Figlet) of this parish who was good enough to bring them around so we could have a listen. He had only just built them and so he had a chance to compare them properly yet. As a test CD we were using the Red Hot Chilli Peppers CD 'Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic' for no other reason than it was to hand and we both like it. It is a good recording with no loudness issues and a lot of 5 string electric bass.
The results were interesting. Both LDR kits were very, very close to each other in performance despite using different methods to control the drift of the LDRs. It was practically impossible to pick between them but if I had to I would say the Tortuga had perhaps a slight edge letting through a little more bass slam, although it would take a much longer session with more varied music to really make a definite decision as in a short session the differences were so small as to be potentially imaginary. Both pre-amps sounded very clean and almost clinical, whereas by comparison the NVA was slightly sweeter bit also a little softer-sounding, particularly in the bass. There was not a massive difference but it was noticeable especially with the reproduction of reverb and decay that was eyebrow-raising on occasion.
Obviously with these being passive pre-amps compatibility with the power amp is a major factor that has to be taken into consideration so your mileage will vary dependant on the partnering equipment but I was hugely impressed by both the LDR pre-amps and need to explore this further. I have a Lightspeed LDR kit that Jason is going to knock up for me so I will be able to have a leisurely and lengthy comparison hopefully soon. These LDR things are worth checking out.
Figlet108
26-05-2014, 14:34
Yep, very interesting Martin, and thanks for your hospitality and very pleasant company.
I really enjoyed the sound of your system and those speakers were a revelation - they certainly don't make them like that any more.
As for the pres, if you don't mind I'm going to start a separate thread on LDR pres as I think it's a very interesting area of investigation.
But I think we agreed that on the day the pecking order was:
- Tortuga LDR3x.V2 (http://www.tortugaaudio.com/product/ldr3x-passive-preamp-controller-version-2/) (~£250 for 3 inputs and with all the options: manual and remote control, dual LCD displays)
- Stereo Coffee LDR (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Light-Dependant-Resistor-3-input-Preamp-Kit-/291138496421?pt=AU_Electronics_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item43c934e7a5) (£85 for 3 input version)
- NVA PS90SA (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NVA-P90sa-stepped-attenuator-Passive-Pre-amplifier-/220432868668?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3352d2a53c) (£640 with 6 inputs)
Just to clarify, it wasn't a Lightspeed LDR, that was the Stereo Coffee LDR.
kenworthy100
26-05-2014, 15:40
Very interesting write up Martin, well worth considering for my second system.
I've been missing my vinyl and I wasn't happy with my cartridge set up. I bought an SL6 - which is pretty good - meaning to get a fancy P-mount cart for it but I was a bit sick looking at my sl1200 and Nagaoka MP50 lying around. What a waste. So I bought one of those Technics overhang gauges to try to get it spot on. So this lunchtime I made a cup of tea and sat down with the headshell and cart, the gauge and a screwdriver and got to it.
Firstly it was not surprising I wasn't happy previously since it turns out the correct overhang is a good couple of mill further forward than I had it. I wanted it bob on and that took a long time. My tea went cold, the sun went down, darkness fell. Still I struggled with it. As you all know you can get it spot on but then when you tighten up it moves off a little bit. Finally I managed it. I'd already hooked up all the other phono gubbins so I just stuck the headshell in, balanced the arm, dialled in 1.5 grammes and kicked off with some 'Stones.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/june14001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/june14001.jpg.html)
Sounds fantastic! I can play my records again woo hoo! I only intended to listen to one track to make sure it wasn't a disaster, ended up listening to both sides of the album :) It was impossible not to. I may well fall back in love with vinyl at this rate. Part of the credit must go to the Firebottle MM phono stage. I could hear right into the studio on 'Emotional Rescue', depth, separation of backing vocals, the lot. All the things I expect, nay, demand from digital but am always surprised to hear with vinyl. Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised.
And here is the lash up as it stands. Note the Pioneer DVD 575A universal player on CD duties. I actually prefer this player to all of my others with this current set up, except for the SLP1200 Broadcast which is not working. It sounds very neutral and without any artifice. And I know the cables look bad but they are correctly 'dressed' as much as possible. A lot of time and care went into that! Really!
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/june14002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/june14002.jpg.html)
It's Seventies day here in my hut at the moment. Hooked up a Harmon Kardon 930 receiver (from 1973) to my Akai SW175 (also from 1973).
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/hk003.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/hk003.jpg.html)
The HK is a top of the line receiver with dual mono power supplies. It can also be split between pre and power sections. 2 phono stages, oodles of tape loops and tone and balance controls (been a while since I had that option) but the tome controls can be defeated and that is how I was running it. One odd thing is that the speaker outputs are reversed so you have to connect the left speaker to the right hand socket. A bit weird that and counter to convention. I did check that it was working with a cd player but since this is supposed to be an all-seventies system I hooked up my SL1200 to 'phono 1'. A bit of a cheat I know but the SL1200s predecessor did come out in 1973 and the Nagaoka MP50 cartridge also hails from that decade (although it now has an MP500 stylus).
So this is effectively a system that may quite well have been used by a well-heeled Canadian or American enthusiast sometime in the mid-Seventies. And what better to test it with than a classic Seventies album? So I stuck on my lovely condition original copy of The Doobie Brothers 'The Captain and Me'.
So how 'Seventies' does it all sound? Well I suppose it depends on what you might consider a Seventies sound. If that's a bit wooley. a little bloomy and maybe a touch ragged then you would be disappointed. Although it isn't a modern, sharply etched sound it is still quite clean and detailed. There was very little to split hairs with compared to my contemporary XTZ amp driving the same speakers. The HK maybe had a little more bass bloom and a little less definition in the bass but otherwise this old classic passes with flying colours. I can happily spend the rest of the evening listening to it and probably will
I swapped this HK with James (Istari Knight) for a Sony ES power amp which owed me about £140 and I think James got the HK off of the 'bay for £130. The speakers cost £160 including cost of collection so this is one heck of an impressive amp/speaker combo for £300. The TT, cart and headshell etc owes me £600 so throw in a £100 for cables (more than enough) and you have a solid s/h system for a grand. Take that same grand into Richer Sound or Sevenoaks and see what vinyl-fronted system you would get in comparison - it won't even be close. Seventies lash-ups rule!
istari_knight
17-06-2014, 11:13
Good to see the old girl put to work Martin :thumbsup:
Good to see the old girl put to work Martin :thumbsup:
Had a mate round yesterday who is a sound and lighting engineer with a couple of decades experience. I explained the concept of the 'Seventies system' to him and stuck on classic Seventies album Isaac Hayes' 'Don't let Go'
As it kicked in he said 'wow it does sound really Seventies'. But after about ten mintes of listening he pronounced the sound to be 'fucking awesome'.
Concept validated, I think ;)
Mr Kipling
17-06-2014, 17:09
Had a mate round yesterday who is a sound and lighting engineer with a couple of decades experience. I explained the concept of the 'Seventies system' to him and stuck on classic Seventies album Isaac Hayes' 'Don't let Go'
As it kicked in he said 'wow it does sound really Seventies'. But after about ten mintes of listening he pronounced the sound to be 'fucking awesome'.
Concept validated, I think ;)
No Boney M. No Dr Hook. No Status Quo. No Clinton Ford. No Herb Albert. No Mantovani. He didn't get a Seventies Full Monty then.
No Boney M. No Dr Hook. No Status Quo. No Clinton Ford. No Herb Albert. No Mantovani. He didn't get a Seventies Full Monty then.
I haven't actually got anything by any of those artists - although I do quite like Quo and Dr Hook. So much music, so little time....
It was never my intention but I have spent the whole week with this vinyl-based system because, frankly, it is so damn listenable. I think it is a combination of the Nagaoka cartridge and the HK930 but the bass is particularly fruity, if not altogether accurate, and this does make for a very entertaining presentation, particularly with pop, rock and blues. there is a lack of definition in the bass compared to my reference set-up but it still plays tunes and goes up and down on the scale without any one-note emphasis. The top end was also quite impressive for a 40 year old system, with a good bit of sparkle on hi-hats and respectable reproduction of the shimmer and decay of cymbals.
I customarily try to listen to see what the system is doing wrong compared to a notional 'perfect' sound and other than a slight overall 'veiling' compared to the P90SA/XTZ combo the only area worthy of criticism was the bass.
On the odd occasion it verged into a very slight wooliness and boominess but this was only apparent with certain material. This for me is the problem with using kit that is not strictly 'neutral', in that it will be outstanding with 90% of what you play but then the odd recording will not sound 'right', showing up the colouration.
So I would not describe this as a high-end sound, but I at no point did I want to switch the thing off and go and do something else, instead I kept tracking through my vinyl collection, not realising the time until it started to get dark at which point I realised I had been listening for 5 hours straight. That happened on a couple of nights this week.
Had to track back through a couple of pages to find this thread, It seems I haven't updated for a while. That's mainly because a lot has been going on with the old lash-up in the past couple of months.
Taking up where I left off with the 'Seventies vinyl set up using the big HK receiver. It wasn't hi-fi in the strict sense but it was quite relaxing and enjoyable to listen to. Contrary to that my proper set up with digital source, passive pre and the big XTZ amp, whilst having bags more clarity and dynamics just wasn't as comfortable and sonorous.
I'd started off a comparison of the Stereo Coffee LDR pre amp and my NVA stepped attenuator passive. A week with the Stereo Coffee and whilst the sound was good by any general benchmark, in ultimate terms it was a bit bland and at the same time a bit harsh. When you always want to turn it down a bit you know you have an issue somewhere. But where? I had heard the Stereo Coffee in other set ups and did not notice these negatives so It would seem it was not to blame. I swapped back to the NVA. This was better - a little softer and less defined but preferable, the blandness was gone but a little distortion remained. And I don't mean a harsh distortion but something far more subtle. If you separately analysed the elements of the sound, bass, mid and top you really couldn't point to any definitive problem but my gut still told me something was not quite right and I could not really relax into the sound. I tried a few different combinations of CD players and different interconnects to no avail. The only thing I could conclude was that it was definitely a cable issue and that a full loom of whatever cable sounded better than mixing and matching.
The problem with accepting that the problem had to be the interconnects is that I hate cables with a passion. I don't like endlessly faffing around with them trying to get the right match with whatever kit I am using because whilst in theory it is all about the LDR characteristics in practice it is just suck and see. But there was no other option. So I bought and borrowed a few of the cheapies that are doing the rounds at the moment and got nowhere until I ended up with a couple of pairs of NVA soundcords. Finally that annoying distortion or whatever it was had disappeared from the sound. It was just gone. Now there was a sonorous and sweet (think valve SET sort of sweet) sound so that I noticed after just half an hour I had physically relaxed quite a bit and was getting quite immersed.
Downside? Well the sweetness was just a bit too good to be true and at the same time there was a lack of tone to guitars and other instruments that have 'tone' if you know what I mean. Sax for example. Also there was a lack of body to the bass end which you could almost overlook but not quite. Adding a sub did not help, strangely. Even so I felt I was on to something so ordered the next set of cables up - the super soundcord. Installing those and switching on it was almost a Goldilocks moment from the first few bars - as in 'just right'. 'Tone' was restored to guitars and the bass and body were back in the sound. I no longer needed the subwoofer. It was still sonorous and sweet but not a cloying sweetness, more that the genuine sweetness of the sounds of the instruments was coming through. The top end decay on percussion is stunning, some of the best I have heard from digital, bar some real megabucks systems. I'm pretty big on getting that part of the sound right so that was a real bonus.
One thing I have noticed in the twenty or so hours I have been listening to this particular iteration of the lash up was how noticeable the difference was between an analogue recording on CD and a digital recording. Obviously we are all aware of this subconsciously but I was surprised to hear it so blatantly presented. Dynamics and separation on the digital recordings, coupled with that slightly glassy sheen, compared with a softer, warmer but less dynamic sound from the analogues, almost like I was using a reel to reel to play them, not a CD player.
Don't stick a fork in me because I'm not done yet. I'm a bass-head and frankly I could still use a little more bass, and I know I can do better with the CD player but that is starting to become a thorny issue. Next I have to get back at some point to the comparison between the pre-amps, now I have sorted the damn cabling issue out reasonably satisfactorily.
Thought you were using a B&O CD player that you recently grabbed Martin? Is it not as good as your others?
It is a bit fussy about playing damaged discs. And a couple that seem to have no damage. Shame since it does sound very good indeed. Using a Parasound CD1000 at the moment. Similar to the fancy Marantz players in its presentation. Slightly lush and sweet.
That's a pity. My Denon is getting like that on CD and its hardly been used. As I said elsewhere I think I am going to get an all in one server from Gaz.
Mr Kipling
12-10-2014, 10:51
Looks like Martin's been decorating!
Swanky!!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/12/asy9a8ar.jpg
Didn't you know I'd bought the Palace of Versailles?
Moved in yesterday, bags of room but it's going to be a bitch to heat in the winter....
Audio Al
12-10-2014, 11:17
Looks like Martin's been decorating!
Swanky!!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/12/asy9a8ar.jpg
Someone needs to tell him the listening chair is in the wrong position :lol:
walpurgis
12-10-2014, 11:32
although I do quite like Quo and Dr Hook.
Oh dear! :rolleyes: ( :) )
Like the system though Martin. Old HK gear is great.
walpurgis
12-10-2014, 11:34
Looks like Martin's been decorating!
Swanky!!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/10/12/asy9a8ar.jpg
Who's room is that? I won't say anything about the decor, other than to say it's not to my liking.
Mr Kipling
12-10-2014, 12:19
I Goggled images for his speakers and it caught my attention. Someone (with class!?!) had sold a pair on Canuck Audio, at some point.
Something was bugging me but I decided to ignore it but now I can't. Got some SSC cables to replace the SC 'cause I thought the SC were just a little 'thin' sounding.
With SSC installed I no longer need the sub switched on, one slight issue I noticed was a bit of mid-forwardness on some material. I mentioned this on the value cables thread. It bothered me because one of the albums so affected was Tom Petty's Full Moon Fever which is a cuddly Geoff Lynne production. I mean you ever heard a Geoff Lynne production sound strident? Me neither.
But listening the other night it occured to me that the mid top was no longer as spotlit as it had been and that the bass seemed a little fulller and warmer. Hmmm...stuck on the Tom Petty album and sure enough all the stridency was gone. Actually I was listening for about 6 hours last night and everything I played sounded superb.
Cable burn in? Can't be 'cause I don't believe in cable burn in. But nothing else in the system has changed. Oh dear, oh dear.....
Sovereign
04-11-2014, 15:20
Or just six hours of drinking ;-)
stereocoffe&SSC is what I have and it sounds sweet.. is it the cables [emoji33] [emoji15] after all ??
Progress has been bogged down recently and last week stalled completely since the SQ of my system was deteriorating steadily without me doing anythng to it at all. Except listen, obviously. I mean it is one thing to make a change and think 'no that sounds worse' but when things sound worse when you have not done anything it starts to get a bit wearing. Now some have suggested it could be a mains issue but I would expect that to vary - sounding good on occasion, and poor on others. Not a slow, steady deterioration every time I sat down to listen.
Now I had wondered if this was cable burn in. Of course I am sceptical about such phenonoma but what else could it be? And if it was cable burn in then that is a litle unfair since in the whole history of hi-fi no component has ever been reported as sounding worse with burn-in. The sound always improves with burn in, that is as certain as death and taxes.
So pissed off at the hi-fi gods I left the damn thing alone and spent a week watching the telly instead.
Howver Marco has sent me a CDR of his Sinatra Live at the Sands LP for me to compare with my storebought CD version (it's part of our ongoing viny vs digital argument) so as my old Parasound won't play it I swapped in a Pioneer Universal player effort instead.
And guess what? Nasty sound gone, lovely sweet, sonourous sound back, exactly as it had sounded when I first installed the new interconnects several weeks ago.
Yes, that's right it wasn't the cables burning in it was my Parasound burning out. Or at least some component or other inside it is slowly going rotten.
So all's well that ends well, quality sound is back and I have still not heard the fabled 'cable burn in'. Wonderful.
Incidentally the Sinatra CDR sounds amazing, no way you would ever say this was taped off vinyl except for two tiny, low level clicks on the left channel of one track that last a micro-second each. I need to try my CD for comparison but from memory I suspect that we are dealing with two different mastering efforts so the cd/vinyl comparison will be a bit moot.
In other news I now have for trial a balanced mains unit, will be giving that a go later this week.
Hi Martin,
Sorry to hear that your system was sounding a bit off colour. I think that happens with all of us sometimes… Most interesting, though, how you discovered the culprit - fate is a strange thing! :eyebrows:
Incidentally the Sinatra CDR sounds amazing, no way you would ever say this was taped off vinyl except for two tiny, low level clicks on the left channel of one track that last a micro-second each.
Oops, must’ve missed those when using the click-repair software… Still, it shows what can be done with vinyl when you try! ;)
Glad you’re enjoying the CD, which is the main thing.
I need to try my CD for comparison but from memory I suspect that we are dealing with two different mastering efforts so the cd/vinyl comparison will be a bit moot.
Perhaps, but the claimed (measurable) distortions of vinyl should be so audibly apparent, compared with the ’superior accuracy’/greater clarity of digital, so as to render the differences in the mastering of both albums as insignificant (i.e. the former effect should override the latter one), no?
Lol… ;)
Marco.
P.S For your reference, the recording was done using a stock DL-103 cartridge.
walpurgis
17-11-2014, 22:08
I used to get that. Periods when my perception of the system's sound was not quite what it should have been. I never really put my finger on the reasons. Happily with the current set-up (which I've had for years) that's not been happening.
I can't really think what the causes may be for the phenomenon, indoor temperatures don't vary that much all year round, variations atmospheric pressure occur all the time and don't appear to have any noticeable effect. Is it mains quality or fluctuating voltage? Could be it's just imagined or down to one's physical state at the time. Who knows?
Ali Tait
17-11-2014, 22:45
I used to get that. Periods when my perception of the system's sound was not quite what it should have been. I never really put my finger on the reasons. Happily with the current set-up (which I've had for years) that's not been happening.
I can't really think what the causes may be for the phenomenon, indoor temperatures don't vary that much all year round, variations atmospheric pressure occur all the time and don't appear to have any noticeable effect. Is it mains quality or fluctuating voltage? Could be it's just imagined or down to one's physical state at the time. Who knows?
Aye me too. I used to rip the whole thing apart and clean all the connections, which usually sorted it out.
Martin, I've heard coupling caps get worse before they got better.
Did some more listening last night and whilst I'm not 100% happy with the Pioneer things still sounding good. The Pioneer has a bit of 'mush' in the sound that was not so apparant with the Parasound. If you imagine a pin being dropped in the soundstage you feel that if you listened for it you would hear it with the Para, but with the Pioneer you dontl feel as though you would hear it. A question of degrees, neither is as good as the Technics SLP1200 in that respect.
Ali - a capacitor going bad was really what I was thinking may be the issue. The player sounded excellent for a fortnight then went rapidly downhill, with a thickened tone in the midband which on occasion almost descended into 'cracked pitch.' Top end percussion also seeme to be receding into the sound a bit too much. No doubt it can be fixed but the player is old and judging by its rack mounts it has seen a fair bit of studio-related service. I have other quality players I can deploy it is just a question of digging them out and plugging them in.
For the past few weeks I've ben trialling an NVA Balanced mains unit in my system. it loos like a very big 4 way mains block but it contains a transformer and the idea is that this eliminates mains-related issues and allows the system to perform at its best. Everything in the system, including the amp(s) needs to be plugged into it.
I tried the BMU with my standard lash-up fronted by the following CD players: Sony 761E, Sony xB930E, Pioneer DVD575, Samsung BD player.
My notes on the progress are available to read elsewhere but essentially from the off I thought that whilst the BMU certainly changed the presentation of the sound in a subtle but noticeable way I was not convinced that the sound with BMU was better as opposed to just different. After 4 long sessions with the BMU in circuit I took it out and listened again:
Well, my initial thoughts were that I preferred the sound with no BMU and this was confirmed over about 10 hours of listening with a wide variety of material. However the difference with BMU to without BMU was subtle but noticeable, as it had been when I initially plumbed the BMU in. In short and in the context of my current system:
With BMU - Positives - richer tone, slightly more warmth/body to the sound and possibly better resolution in the bass.
Negatives - 'darker' more closed in sound stage, slight limiting of dynamics (sound was more 'open' and 'easy' without BMU) and a slight occlusion in the midrange. This latter effect was noticeable with cymbals in a busy mix. In those situations the cymbal tends to be just below the vocal but slightly 'buried' by the rest of the mix. With BMU Instead of ringing it was a little supressed and slurred. Without BMU this effect disappeared and the cymbal was better resolved.
Caveats - All of what I am describing here was subtle. The sound was 'good' on an absolute scale both without BMU and with BMU. The BMU certainly changed the character of the sound, but it was very difficult to pin down exactly what was changed. Also die to recent failures I don't have what most enthusiasts would call an 'acceptable' hi-fi cd player and this has certainly limited the efficacy of the test. So as things stand I can't come to a definitive conclusion other than to say the BMU does make a difference to the presentation and it is enough of a difference to make it worth the effort of trying one in your system should you be so inclined.
Sovereign
13-12-2014, 11:53
Really interesting reading Martin.
Do you think the NVA BMU gave you a closed in sound and loss of dynamics because it is a relatively small torodial at 1.5 kVa? I know others would say 1.5 kVa is more than enough.
I have tried 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 10 kVa! Yes 10. It came into my hifi room on caster wheels and was the biggest bit of kit I had seen. For me 1.5kVA does limit the scale and openness of the sound. Jerry also had a 1.5kVa BPS a couple of years ago, when he plugged his Parasound power amp into it, he found the same problem, then sold it on. The problem is the iron can saturate and therefore become overloaded, this will be heard through your hifi. Read my findings in my BPS thread.
After trying all the different sizes I have I settled with a hand wound 3kVa, however it uses a 5kVa iron core. I also found the one I now have sounds much better than an 'off the self one.' You will find the off the shelf torodials will rattle which sounds like a bad hum, so people pour layers of doping compound over them to calm this down, again which translates to loss of sound quality. However what I have stands totally silent, without and filters or need to quieten it down.
Hi James
Yes I agree that could be the issue regarding dynamics. No-one who has used the BMU with NVA amps has experienced this but the XTZ I use is a very different design philosophy majoring on high current delivery. Also I have a large room, sit a long distance from the speakers and I listen to a lot of dynamic rock music played at volume.
The BMU I have is the prototype so I understand the traffo is not doped in any way and so does hum but the unit is 25 feet from my listening seat so not an issue for me. I'm not sure if doping the traffo will affect its performance though, I think the manufacturer says it does not.
Sovereign
13-12-2014, 12:17
I had NVA A80 mono blocs when I had the 1.5kVa BPS i bought from Jerry and it worked really well, I liked the improvements it made, however when I bought and Airlink 3kVa BPS the sound improved further , again using NVA amps.
All the testing I have done since then has been with a big Class A amp.
Sovereign
13-12-2014, 12:21
No doping won't effect its performance at all, It will just quieten it down, but it will still rattle all the same. What I was saying is the one I have is dead quite to start with. However that torodial itself I presume would cost a lot more, but I could be wrong.
No doping won't effect its performance at all, It will just quieten it down, but it will still rattle all the same. What I was saying is the one I have is dead quite to start with. However that torodial itself I presume would cost a lot more, but I could be wrong.
Ah right, misunderstood you.
One thing though, I've had a zillion different amps over the years, all ages and prices, never had one with the slightest bit transformer noise or rattle. They can't all have used expensive traffos.
Ali Tait
13-12-2014, 12:32
It's usually the DC offset in the mains that causes a noisy toroidal.
Sovereign
13-12-2014, 12:46
Ah right, misunderstood you.
One thing though, I've had a zillion different amps over the years, all ages and prices, never had one with the slightest bit transformer noise or rattle. They can't all have used expensive traffos.
Your absolutely right, I also have an NVA TSS which has four 300va toroids and when the amp is on it is dead silent, although they are potted. In my DIY DDDAC I also have a 300v a toroid, un potted, that is dead quiet. However when you use a 1500va toroid which is 4 times the size, they will start to rattle the bigger they get in size and the thicker copper they use. I had a 3000va BPS from Airlink and it rattled/hummed like mad, so I had to put a Nick Gorham DC blocker on it which made it dead quiet, Ali your absolutely right in your comment.
It's not a question of only a bigger toroid will make the system sound better, or merely add up the current draw of your hifi and thats the size of balanced toroid you need at all. I have had an Airlink 3kVa BPS and the 3kVa hand made one I have now, and it was this difference that made the most improvement to the sound of my hifi, rather than just a bigger off the peg toroid rating.
As I have said in my own thread, my knowledge in this area is only from others and SHED loads of personal experimenting which I really enjoyed.
So size and DC offset on the mains will be factors. Okay, got that.
This hobby for me is all about trying different things and seeing what they do. Much better to gain experience like that than just reading about other's opinions.
Ali Tait
13-12-2014, 13:20
It would be better to use an E/I transformer, they are more tolerant of a little DC.
Sovereign
13-12-2014, 13:23
So size and DC offset on the mains will be factors. Okay, got that.
This hobby for me is all about trying different things and seeing what they do. Much better to gain experience like that than just reading about other's opinions.
Your definitely right there mate. I used to use balanced power years ago, then moved to the States and back. It was Alis thread that got me back into balanced mains, and he offered me loads of advice to get me going which I appreciated.
I also had the opportunity to spend time with a toroid manufacturer who has been doing nothing but making torodials for 30 odd years, and he patiently tried all the different options that I read about online. I found a huge amount of info online, some of it on hifi forums such as DIY Audio from some really educated people. We tried all of these options, well most of them. My contact told me the info I was giving him was incorrect but he tried it all and nothing worked as well as his design, which is what we went with in the end; I should have just listened to the bloke :mental:
I would love to hear the NVA BMU as NVA make cracking products and compare it to what I have, but I'm kind of done with all the testing, I think I have exhausted most options.
BilliumB
13-12-2014, 19:49
Hi Ali
I've certainly read that an EI transformer should be better re dc offset issues, however I also understand that for an equivalent rating a toroidal will have lower impedance.
I've got a significant transformer buzz problem (on various bit of kit) which is significantly improved by using a dc blocker - so would be really interested in actual experience of an EI balanced transformer setup. Do you know of anyone who has actually tried one - I can only find info from people who have used toroids or who say that an EI will be better, but don't seem to have actually tried it!
Cheers. Bill
Macca, how many Naims have you owned? I've had amps at home that were too buzzy by far, yet silent in the shop and vice versa. A full system (250, Hicap and 82) was silent except for the piddly transformer in the little PSC supply for the preamp - the client complained and ended up with a selected one from Naim!
The transformer in my HH amp is large and silent and may I say the amps I've made have been quiet as well after a slight 'boing' on switch-on. The old Crowns, like almost all old US gear run on 230 - 240V, buzz like chainsaws, something they always did from new (the DC300A doesn't though, from memory).
hifi_dave
13-12-2014, 22:22
Practically everything I had from Naim buzzed like a box of bees and I think it worsened with the new DR supplies. The larger the x'mer, the noisier they got.
It wasn't a mains issue here as I have amps with far larger x'mers and they are whisper quiet.
Ali Tait
13-12-2014, 22:28
Hi Ali
I've certainly read that an EI transformer should be better re dc offset issues, however I also understand that for an equivalent rating a toroidal will have lower impedance.
I've got a significant transformer buzz problem (on various bit of kit) which is significantly improved by using a dc blocker - so would be really interested in actual experience of an EI balanced transformer setup. Do you know of anyone who has actually tried one - I can only find info from people who have used toroids or who say that an EI will be better, but don't seem to have actually tried it!
Cheers. Bill
Hi Bill,
No, never heard one. Would not be cheap to have one made though!
For the past few weeks I've ben trialling an NVA Balanced mains unit in my system. it loos like a very big 4 way mains block but it contains a transformer and the idea is that this eliminates mains-related issues and allows the system to perform at its best. Everything in the system, including the amp(s) needs to be plugged into it.
I tried the BMU with my standard lash-up fronted by the following CD players: Sony 761E, Sony xB930E, Pioneer DVD575, Samsung BD player.
My notes on the progress are available to read elsewhere but essentially from the off I thought that whilst the BMU certainly changed the presentation of the sound in a subtle but noticeable way I was not convinced that the sound with BMU was better as opposed to just different. After 4 long sessions with the BMU in circuit I took it out and listened again:
Well, my initial thoughts were that I preferred the sound with no BMU and this was confirmed over about 10 hours of listening with a wide variety of material. However the difference with BMU to without BMU was subtle but noticeable, as it had been when I initially plumbed the BMU in. In short and in the context of my current system:
With BMU - Positives - richer tone, slightly more warmth/body to the sound and possibly better resolution in the bass.
Negatives - 'darker' more closed in sound stage, slight limiting of dynamics (sound was more 'open' and 'easy' without BMU) and a slight occlusion in the midrange. This latter effect was noticeable with cymbals in a busy mix. In those situations the cymbal tends to be just below the vocal but slightly 'buried' by the rest of the mix. With BMU Instead of ringing it was a little supressed and slurred. Without BMU this effect disappeared and the cymbal was better resolved.
Caveats - All of what I am describing here was subtle. The sound was 'good' on an absolute scale both without BMU and with BMU. The BMU certainly changed the character of the sound, but it was very difficult to pin down exactly what was changed. Also die to recent failures I don't have what most enthusiasts would call an 'acceptable' hi-fi cd player and this has certainly limited the efficacy of the test. So as things stand I can't come to a definitive conclusion other than to say the BMU does make a difference to the presentation and it is enough of a difference to make it worth the effort of trying one in your system should you be so inclined.
Interesting, Martin, and thanks for the write-up, but your comments aren’t a surprise. Why do you think, with me being so big into optimising the mains supply for my system (as you saw and heard for yourself when you visited), that I haven’t entertained using a BMU (or for that matter a mains regenerating device, from the likes of PS Audio, so popular with others)?
The NVA unit you’ve tested aside, BMUs aren't exactly a new invention….
It’s because, with hi-fi, I believe in the K.I.S.S principle, and that means having the least amount of boxes/‘gubbins' within the chain as possible. As far as mains optimisation is concerned, for me there are two main goals, and those are reducing resistance and impedance wherever possible, which of course is not best facilitated by introducing more circuitry and sockets into the equation (as in the case of a BMU).
That’s why I don’t rate them, as they ‘sit’ on the sound (as also do many filters) and so create as many problems as they claim to solve, which is why you heard what you've reported.
Other enviable goals, in terms of mains optimisation, are installing a dedicated spur (or spurs) for your system and reducing noise, by installing a low-impedance, dedicated earth and keeping connections to a minimum. That is done by hard-wiring where possible, and also PRACTICAL, along with employing the use of ‘over-engineered’ ancillary items, for example heavy-duty, high-quality mains leads with very large conductors. My current ones feature the use 6mm2 solid-cores!
Do that, and I GUARANTEE you’ll hear a massive sonic improvement, as you’re applying a ‘fix’ right at the source of proceedings, rather than a ‘sticking plaster’ afterwards, which essentially is all a BMU is, and will only really be of benefit if you have a particularly bad mains supply. Trouble is, it’s much easier plugging in a ‘magic box’, in an attempt to cure all of one’s ‘audio ills’, than getting to the nitty-gritty of the matter in the manner I’ve just outlined ;)
Marco.
Sovereign
14-12-2014, 23:06
Hi Marco
I have done all of the above and more, there is a whopping 30mm armoured under my garden connecting my hifi room to the mains tails coming out of the ground. I had a hard wired system but as you say its a wee bit impractical as I have found myself taking kit to peoples homes for them to hear; instead I have used Neutrik Powercon connectors and therefore my system is fuseless.
I have made a mother trucker of a balanced power supply which has been hand made and is far from a sticking plaster, it has brought a lovely upgrade.
If you ever try one, make sure its not one off the peg but a higher quality torodial.
Hi James,
Glad it worked in your circumstances, but as I said, the effectiveness (or otherwise) of these devices is largely down to how bad, and thus how much treatment, the mains supply in your area needs, in order to be sonically optimised.
I’ve tried these types of devices in the past, although not the one used by Martin or you, and in all instances it was a retrograde step. They just don’t work for me, or fit with my idea of how a (decently clean to start with) mains supply should be optimised for use with a quality hi-fi system.
Marco.
Sovereign
14-12-2014, 23:26
Fair enough mate. Hourses for courses.
Indeed. For starters, I’d hazard a guess that where you are in Kent it’s a lot more built-up (in terms of the mains supply likely being ‘polluted’/adversely interfered with by nearby factories, etc) than it is where I am in Wrexham. Much larger population, overall, where you are, too.
Therefore, such things will have a significant bearing on whether BMUs, and suchlike, perform optimally in one’s system, which is all I’m trying to say: that they are far from being a universal panacea in every set of circumstances. If they work for you, however, then enjoy them! :)
Marco.
Sovereign
14-12-2014, 23:43
If ever I find my self up your way I'll put my BPS just incase I cant temp you to try it. Blimey I sound like a drug pusher .
walpurgis
14-12-2014, 23:45
If ever I find my self up your way I'll put my BPS just incase I cant temp you to try it. Blimey I sound like a drug pusher .
You're not? Damn, I was looking for a score! :lol:
If ever I find my self up your way I'll put my BPS just incase I cant temp you to try it. Blimey I sound like a drug pusher .
Wossa BPS, then - son of a BMU? :D
I’m surprised that Macca has made no comment on these recent posts… Martin?
Marco.
Sovereign
15-12-2014, 08:38
Wossa BPS, then - son of a BMU? :D
I’m surprised that Macca has made no comment on these recent posts… Martin?
Marco.
Same thing I guess. BMU is what NVA call their unit. Balance power supply I guess is a generic term. Not all balanced power is the same, although the basic principle is the same.
Yup, I believe that Russ Andrews also do one - at considerably more expense!
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=1196&customer_id=PAA1599126314877DGREXWZTQLRFLVEZ
:eek: :eek:
Marco.
brian2957
15-12-2014, 08:56
You think that's expensive . Have a look at this one http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=1196&customer_id=PAA1561123614599VNVUQPIKWBVSQDUP :eek::eek:
I think he was the first to offer these for sale for audio applications .
That’s the one I’ve linked to, daftee ;)
Total waste of money, IMO, unless you have a mains supply poor enough for what it’s designed to do to work!
At the very least, even before investing in one of these things, a dedicated mains spur (or spurs) and earth, for you system, should be installed - and *then* see how effective a BMU is in your environment.
If you do it the other way round, much of the sonic benefit could’ve already been achieved by the former, at far less expense…. Trouble is, folk are lazy, and so would rather just plug in a box than attend properly, at source, to their mains supply ‘infrastructure’.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
15-12-2014, 09:22
You think that's expensive . Have a look at this one http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=1196&customer_id=PAA1561123614599VNVUQPIKWBVSQDUP :eek::eek:
I think he was the first to offer these for sale for audio applications .
Wasn't HiFi News Accessory Club the first, with the Ben Duncan design?
That’s the one I’ve linked to, daftee
Total waste of money, IMO, unless you have a mains supply poor enough for what it’s designed to do to work!
At the very least, even before investing in one of these things, a dedicated mains spur (or spurs) and earth, for you system, should be installed - and *then* see how effective a BMU is in your environment.
If you do it the other way round, much of the sonic benefit could’ve already been achieved by the former, at far less expense…. Trouble is, folk are lazy, and so would rather just plug in a box than attend properly, at source, to their mains supply ‘infrastructure’.
Marco.
A dedicated spur (or ring) is fine if you own the property or can actually do (or tolerate) that sort of work, but for many people that's not going to be an option. Whatever the arguments about particular balanced mains products, I believe there is good science behind them and, if I did not already have a PS Audio P5, I'd be trying one out. A dedicated mains spur, or ring, will have a beneficial effect but it will not get rid of common mode crap on the supply, but (if I understand things correctly) a BMU/BPS will. So, the two approaches work together, but I reckon the BMU/BPS might just give better 'bang for buck'.
Hi Hugo,
A dedicated spur (or ring) is fine if you own the property or can actually do (or tolerate) that sort of work, but for many people that's not going to be an option.
Absolutely - and that’s taken as a given.
However, you’d be surprised how many hi-fi enthusiasts own their own property and spend thousands of pounds on all sorts of ‘paraphernalia’ to improve their system, whilst neglecting the most important area of all: optimising how your system receives power from the mains supply - and the fundamentals of that are installing a dedicated spur (or spurs) and earth.
I often wonder, for some folk, if that’s because it doesn’t ‘look sexy’, and because there’s nothing to ‘show off’ to your mates? ;)
A dedicated mains spur, or ring, will have a beneficial effect but it will not get rid of common mode crap on the supply, but (if I understand things correctly) a BMU/BPS will.
Perhaps, but at what expense - by increasing resistance and also the impedance of your mains supply? With these sorts of devices, there is no ‘free lunch’.
Like I’ve said, no doubt that for some, such as Sov, they work. However, a universal panacea they are not, so my advice would be to think hard before parting with your cash, or borrow one and try it first.
So, the two approaches work together, but I reckon the BMU/BPS might just give better 'bang for buck'.
Perhaps, but again much depends on the environment you’re in (in terms of the potential benefits likely to be gained), and also how much the BMU in question costs.
Having a simple dedicated earth and spur fitted, for your system, by a qualified electrician, need not cost any more than about £400 (mine originally cost me £250), and that along with the likes of ensuring that your main house fuse is rated at 100A (and not an inferior 60 or 80A), which is a free upgrade from your electricity supplier, provides serious ‘bang for buck’!
:exactly:
Marco.
I often wonder, for some folk, if that’s because it doesn’t ‘look sexy’, and because there’s nothing to ‘show off’ to your mates? ;)
You are quite the cynic this morning, Ethel... :D
’Tis true, though, Cindy ;)
Marco.
’Tis true, though, Cindy ;)
Marco.
Quite frankly I doubt my landlord would notice or even give a fook whether I hooked the mains up directly to the Sun as he seems oblivious to all the faults we've highlighted in the property. I may yet reduce it to a pile of rubble and try to pass it off as modern architecture, he'd be stoked... :lol:
I once knew a girl named Cindy, she was more manly than most men I know. She's dead now, her liver leapt up through her body and throttled her brain once it realised it couldn't cope with any more alcohol... :eyebrows:
I think I know her… Did she have facial hair and a penchant for voyeurism?
Marco.
However advanced the domestic electrical feed to the hifi system, the mains coming in from outside is still suspect in some areas. I like to think we're lucky here with our mains quality, but when we lived in Luton, we definitely weren't (I'm talking mains supply here, not other disadvantages of living there).
..but when we lived in Luton, we definitely weren't (I'm talking mains supply here, not other disadvantages of living there).
Yeah, the place is total dump. I went there once on a business conference (2006) and was shocked to see how filthy and dilapidated it was, along with some of the local ‘mutants’, walking the streets… What a sight! :eek:
Marco.
Oh come on fellas Luton is the Casablanca of the Midlands, it's got an airport and has a kebab shop which supplies the hottest chilli sauce I've ever tasted, I thought I'd swallowed Chernobyl goddammit! It's worth a visit for that alone... :lol:
walpurgis
15-12-2014, 11:01
Luton is Midlands? No, no, no! It's sarf mate. :D
Indeed - I was wondering about that….
Judging by the state of some of them, I suspect that quite a few of the locals there were featured in the recent ‘Black Friday shopping wars’.
Marco.
Yesterday I picked up my latest acquisition from a town called Broadway in Worcestershire, the view of the Cotswolds there is outstanding. It's not Luton but hey, you can't have everything... hehe
For the avoidence of doubt I am sceptical when it comes to mains-related issues and mains improvements improving sq. Over the years I have suspected my mains of causing sq problems on a few occasions but it has always turned out that something else has been the culprit. I do wonder if that has been the case with other's experiences too.
I'm of the opinion that good equipment should be designed to inherently reject noise in the mains supply.
However I have heard differences in the sq of mains blocks, quite clearly, so that would imply that attending both to the mains supply in terms of a dedicated ring for the hi-fi equipment etc and the mains leads might also be worth while in order to get an incremental (unlikely to be a large) increase in sq. I wouldn't consider this to be a priority in any system and would only consider it myself once I thought that I had everything else optimised and that it was cheap and convenient to do.
I remain totally unconvinced by claims that such mains optimisation can bring 'night and day' differences, even if the location is somewhere that suffers badly from noise on the mains (Luton, apparantly). I have heard systems with no mains treatments sounding vey good indeed in environments where the mains should be pretty poor and noisy (Scalford for example).
The BMU that I tried is a prototype that was on a 'round robin' of people who were interested. I was not experiencing any mains-related sq issues previously. I do not think the equipment I use is particularly sensitive to the mains either. I tried it because it was available to try and I was intrigued to see what it did.
I remain totally unconvinced by claims that such mains optimisation can bring 'night and day' differences, even if the location is somewhere that suffers badly from noise on the mains...
Well, I can assure you that one of the main reasons my system sounds the way it does (‘effortless’, I believe is one of the words you used) is because of the mains-set up employed. Next time you’re up, I’ll plug it all into the house ring-main/earth, via a cheapo B&Q mains block, with 'kettle leads', and you’ll hear what happens...! ;)
Marco.
You said and so did others that your system sounded excellent at Scalford running off the crappy hotel mains so it can't make that much difference, although I am willing to concede it probably makes some subtle improvement. I'm not saying it is not worth doing just that there are other, higher priorities to attend to first. Once you've done all of them (which you have) then it makes sense to pay some attention to the mains.
You said and so did others that your system sounded excellent at Scalford running off the crappy hotel mains so it can't make that much difference, although I am willing to concede it probably makes some subtle improvement.
Well, first of all, at Scalford, we were using various types of filters, in strategic places within the system, to help remove some of the crap from the hotel mains supply, and also the ‘fancy’ mains leads I use at home were plugged into all the components, so it’s not as if we were just using bog-standard stuff. Furthermore, all the kit was meticulously set-up on Mana and Quadraspire Ref equipment racks, so again not just dumped on any old piece of furniture.
We spent about four hours optimising the set-up of the system the night before it was due to be demonstrated - and the effort paid off! However, if we hadn’t done that, trust me, it wouldn’t have sounded anywhere near as good. Also, as good as the system sounded there, it sounds WAY better, chez-moi, where you heard it - and that’s precisely because of the dedicated mains set-up (and earth) I have in place at home :)
Marco.
Oh come on fellas Luton is the Casablanca of the Midlands, it's got an airport and has a kebab shop which supplies the hottest chilli sauce I've ever tasted, I thought I'd swallowed Chernobyl goddammit! It's worth a visit for that alone... :lol:
Synsei you are funny [emoji1]
System as it stands today. XTZ power amp has been replaced with NVA A30 MKII although I am waiting for the NVA speaker cables to arrive before it gets a proper airing.
Parasound CD1000 is back in, this is my best sounding working player. I though it had an issue but turns out it was the XTZ so it is now in favour again.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/system%20may24%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/system%20may24%20001.jpg.html)
With the demise of the XTZ I had two power amps lying about as stop-gaps, the Linn and an HK930 receiver with a dual-mono power section.
Tried the Linn first, better than I expected but compared to the XTZ it lacks a bit of subtlty and it is not as good in the 'blacker blacks' department (noise floor). It's influence/character in the overall sound was pretty obvious. It really chucks the sound at you.
The HK I was not sure about, figured either it would be amazingly good or terrible. As an integrated it is a pleasant listen but not anything special. As it turned out it was super-smooth, particularly in the bass which was warm and natural sounding but noise wise not as good as the Linn and after a long while I could detect the slightest grain of distortion in the mids. Of course once you hear that the game is up. It was bland, really. Actually more listenable as an integrated.
It was interesting to hear the differences between power amps so obviously. A combination of the P90SA and the Akai speakers not taking any prisoners, I guess.
Anyway new power amp required so though I would go with the NVA since should in theory be the optimal match for my pre-amp. The best sound I have had in my room with the rest of the set up the same was with Alan Firebottle's OTL valve power amp, if I can get close to that I'll be happy. For a while, anyway.
Interesting, Martin. So how does the NVA compare with the Firebottle? A description of their relative merits and non-merits, as you perceive them, would be appreciated :)
Marco.
Just waiting for the speaker cable to arrive so I have full loom of the NVA cable. So won't be any updates until next weekend and I've had a chance to listen to the whole shebang.
No worries, dude. Look forward to it :thumbsup:
Marco.
Okay here are some thoughts so far about the new kit.
This is now all NVA so P90SA passive pre amp, A30 MkII power amp, SSC interconnects twixt everything and LS1 speaker cables. CD player is a Parasound 1000 (from 1994) and speakers are the Akai SW 175 (from 1973)
The pre-amp is top of the range, the amp is the cheapest they do (£340).
Whilst you can use the pre amps or the cables with anything, potentially, NVA are quite keen that their power amps be properly evaluated only in the context of a full NVA set up like this. You have to use NVA speaker cable with NVA amps.
The speaker cable thing was a bit of a glitch since I ordered the recommended LS5 but with this installed the sound was a little thick and syrupy, lacking impact and with no fine detail. After a consultation it was suggested that the LS5 cable was not suitable for my vintage speakers and a much thinner cable - the LS1 - was supplied. This made an enormous difference to the sound, the 'rightness' was notable from the first couple of bars of music, even before I was back in my seat. We were now cooking with gas and serious listening could commence.
I've ran through a fair few recordings so far but nothing like enough to be really confident with what I am about to say but anyway this is it so far:
I've recently heard quite a few very good systems that would really be classed as high end in terms of price and ability ( although some were DIY set ups so not as expensive as they could be). It's one thing to hear a really good system once and then not again for many years but when you have a whole slew of them in a few months you start to re-evaluate how good things can potentially get.
I like passive pre-amps because I don't see the logical need for another gain stage in front of the power amp, it is just a load of additional circuitry that can only detract. Not that I have not heard some very good active pre amps but they were also very expensive. Passive gets you to that really open, delicate reproduction without having to spend thousands. So I like my P90 SA a lot and when I had my XTZ amp develop a problem it seemed like a good excuse to try the NVA power amp designed to match.
So- to sound quality:
Some recordings I played I have to say I was doing that involuntary grin thing I see others write about but never get myself. Flagship stuff like Steely Dan's Aja sounded magnificent. There is a huge load of presence in the mid band that puts a lot of weight behind the sound in that region, it is really tight and forceful. At the same time vocals and featured instruments do not come out too forward to the point where they mask the rest of the mix, but they were just a little further forward than I like/am used to when using the XTZ amp.
The XTZ was very clinical though, this is a slightly warmer, slightly richer presentation, although with the same levels of clarity in terms of reverb and decay, and in terms of being able to 'hear into' the recording. But it does not strip the recording bare like the XTZ did. I quite liked that aspect of the XTZ but it was more a studio sound than a home audio one.
I played a few rougher recordings to see if the system could make sense of them. Sam And Dave on Atlantic re-issue CD came across well even though these are ropey recordings even by the standard of the day. There was a slight rough edge to the sound, though. Not enough to ruin enjoyment but not quite as tidy as I have heard it. I tried a couple of recordings that are very clean - Don Felder's 'Heavy |Metal (Takin'a Ride)' from the Heavy Metal soundtrack album is a good one for this.
This did sound awesomely grin inducing etc - but there was a slight edge to the sound. Just the tiniest thing but this should sound clean as a bell and there was a little bit of a rough edge that I know is not there on the recording. I'm splitting hairs since the sound was clean and certainly not rough or distorted, more I would say it was the slightest bit of colouration from the power amp.
More when I have had a longer time with it.
good to hear Martin...glad your smiling again:D
Really glad you're moving back on track Martin.
Regarding amp 'sounds,' it's interesting how GOOD amps can sound broadly similar, even if the similarity is cosmetic (I'm trying to be careful here). Some ss amps do tend to make the perceived sonics 'whiter than white' and quite literal. Maybe this really is absolute 'accuracy,' but we're trying to suspend disbelief when listening at home and the older I get, the more I favour a more subtle approach (sorry Jerry :respect: :)).
walpurgis
31-05-2015, 12:09
All coming together then Martin. Good. :)
If you are experiencing a slight edge, it may be down to that horn tweeter. I know this unit and it can emphasise parts of the top end a bit. You could try suspending a strip of Declon in front of it to diffuse the sound a bit. That will cut down on the 'beaming' that can make the sound a little too forward at some listening angles. Try it, you'll see what I'm getting at.
All coming together then Martin. Good. :)
If you are experiencing a slight edge, it may be down to that horn tweeter. I know this unit and it can emphasise parts of the top end a bit. You could try suspending a strip of Declon in front of it to diffuse the sound a bit. That will cut down on the 'beaming' that can make the sound a little too forward at some listening angles. Try it, you'll see what I'm getting at.
Yes I am once again advancing on my objectives. But I know the issue is not to do with the speakers. Not directly. Will be getting some different speaker cable to try since I think this might be where the weak spot is. The Chord Odyssey I was using with the other amps can't be used with NVA as it is a twisted pair. But by chance it was a good match for the speakers which seem to be quite fussy about cable.
Really glad you're moving back on track Martin.
Regarding amp 'sounds,' it's interesting how GOOD amps can sound broadly similar, even if the similarity is cosmetic (I'm trying to be careful here). Some ss amps do tend to make the perceived sonics 'whiter than white' and quite literal. Maybe this really is absolute 'accuracy,' but we're trying to suspend disbelief when listening at home and the older I get, the more I favour a more subtle approach (sorry Jerry :respect: :)).
I do like that 'stripped bare' studio sound, providing it is still sweet and clean.
VesaLato
31-05-2015, 14:35
Good that you got sound back where you wanted. Read this block and you have had troubles with amps and cdps more than enough...
I was sent some LS1 cable as that should be a better match for the speakers. Obviously they are 40 odd years old and in 1973 no-one was using hi-fi speaker cable it was just bell wire. So you have to consider back in the day that speakers would be voiced with that in mind.
Anyway the LS1 was an improvement, getting rid of the slightly thick, syrupy trait the system had with the LS5. But there was still a bit of midrange 'bloom' and a little bit of occlusion in the mids, a sleight veil that was keeping the sound a bit surpressed in that area.
I turned down the mid range level control one notch and this cured the bloom but the veiling was still there.
Was sent another cable that is supposedly custom designed to suit the Akais and might remove the veil, I was advised that this was brand new cable and would need to burn in.
Speaker cable burn in I am pretty sceptical about, I think I may have heard it before. That is the best I can do. So I ignored this advice and when the cable arrived yesterday got down straight away to some serious critical listening.
This was a much smaller difference than between the LS5 and LS1. Nevertheless the mid and top seemed a bit more open, maybe at the expense of a little mid-bass. Listening to Steely Dan 'Two Against Nature' and SRV's 'Couldn't Stand The Weather' I though there were some slight rough edges even on pretty smooth and accomplished modern recordings. The live radio studio recordings at the end of SRV sounded okay though.
But I wasn't that happy. Whilst this was not a bad sound it was not really what I am after. Ideally I want that high-end Japanese sound, where it is clean and sweet but also awesomely open and revealing. Some say that is too 'polite' a sound for them, it doesn't sound like 'live music' but that is my preference and this wasn't it. This was more a warm, organic sound but a bit too rough and ready for me. Not distorted as such but with a bit of roughness around notes.
By this point though I had decided that having the mids dialled back was no longer working, I was losing a little bit of body to the sound. So I set them back to nominal.
Fed up a bit I decided to play Jimmy Page 'Outrider'. This is an album I often turn to if I really want to see how smooth or otherwise the sound is. Mid 'Eighties digital recording, loud rock music, Jimmy Page producing - it ticks al the boxes and this album will sound dog rough on a system with any tendancy to distortion or hardness.
I really thought this recording would sound awful and that would be an end to it.
but it actually sounded pretty good, easy to listen to, dynamic, a bit of raunch still there but now it was raunch rather than roughness. As the album progressed it sounded better and better. Now I was confused, was this the speaker cable burning in as advised?
I decided to go the opposite way and play something super smooth, AKA Steely Dan's 'Aja' - pretty much a pinnicale of analogue recording perfection. If this sounds anything other than superbly lush then you have problems with your system. The slightest, tiniest rough edge? If it is there on this album then it shouldn't be.
It was super smooth and almost faultless.
Last record of the night had to be The Doors - 'LA Woman'. One of my faves of all time this one. not a remaster or anything, original CD release, this can sound very good or quite poor depending on the system. I'd played it the other night with the LS1 in place and whilst it had not sounded bad I'd noticed on the final track (Riders On The Storm) that there was a halo of distortion around the keyboard, which is over to the back left of the mix. There is actually a little bit of distortion on the record but the system had over emphasised it and it sounded quite bad.
Not this time in fact I don't think I have ever heard this better. The thunderstorm effects were spot on, the rain coming down all through the track, you didn't need to listen for it, it was just there. Solid positioning of the instruments too, drums were a little soft but a minor criticism since that was a drum kit in the right corner of my living room and that was Ray Manzarek's keyboard almost physically (but invisibly) in the back left with no distortion halo, just the natural slight distort that is on the recording.
I had to leave it there, I have neighbours and it was past 2300 hrs by this point.
Still not 100% sure what I heard would be repeatable, could have been the late hour, my relaxed mood etc - but I trust my instincts over that I think. Will be having another session tonight and will hopefully see then what is real and what is imagined.
walpurgis
06-06-2015, 09:10
Some decent enough cables were used in Hi-Fi back in circa 1973. Then, I was involved with some pretty serious PA systems and the cables used, although more designed for sturdiness than sound quality, were substantial. Many of the people I was involved with use professional cables in their Hi-Fi systems. I did too. They certainly seemed better. I can't recall the makes, but much of our gear was from WEM, so I guess they provided the cable too.
I've only heard speaker cables make this much difference once before that is when I was trying to marry some speakers that went down to 2 ohm in the bass with an amp that didn't like to put out current. Never got a good sound but tried a lot of cables and there were big changes in the presentation.
It is the change of sound with 'burn' in that surprised me. Almost like the rough edges being smoothed over literally as I listened and letting more of the recording through as a consequence. Never experienced that before.
i usedvto think i was hearing that myself but after tests it appeared that it was me that was burning in lol....not that i have to be right of course. i now go with cables i still like 3 days down the line.
Could it be me burning in? LOL I know exactly what you mean. But no. I don't feel that it is in this case. It's worrying, I know. Time will tell.
Solid positioning of the instruments too,
In my book you have to be doing most things well - eg quality, matching, setup - to get this right.
Another significant improvement listening last night.
I was keen to try the two albums I listened to when I first installed the LS 1.5 to see if it was me or if it was the 'burn in.
It is the burn in no doubt in my mind now. The SRV really sounded much more refined, like a sophisticated hi-fi system playing a sophisticated hi-fi recording should. It definitely did not sound like this on the Friday. Steely Dan the whole mid and top much, much clearer and refined. subtle interplay on the cymbals and the hi-hats, very good, not heard it better on my system. Vocals back in the mix intelligible for the first time - not heard this before either. Not because they were forward in the mix but just sheer clarity. it is like a whole load of hash that was there before has disappeared.
Most noticeable on the SRV album, notes coming out of inky blackness. I know inky blackness is regarded as a bit of a cliché but it really does exist and it is a sliding scale. This has really slid toward the good end now. Again things seemed to improve as time went on.
There is a slight loss of bass compared to the LS1 but the whole mid is so much ore clear and sweet it is hard to worry about that too much. Might have to resume mucking around with the subwoofer again. I nearly had it working right before the last set of problems arose.
Could really do with speakers that match the room set up better. Not sure what. Beating the mid-range clarity on the Akai will not be easy. Thinking loosely about a three way with a large bass cab, sealed of course, and mid and top in separate cab on top with just mechanical filtering for the bass and mid as advocated by NVA. They do make speakers but they need a long clear wall to go up against and I don't have one.
Or maybe some open baffles on similar principles since my room is ideal shape for a dipole speaker system.
Getting there, anyway.
walpurgis
07-06-2015, 11:52
Yer ears is playin' games with ya Martin! :lol:
think those 637's would be your answer mate...what nva amp did you get again?
walpurgis
07-06-2015, 12:05
think those 637's would be your answer mate...what nva amp did you get again?
Fine speaker the 637. Shame your room acoustics are unhelpful Grant.
Fine speaker the 637. Shame your room acoustics are unhelpful Grant.
just popped them back in to try again as i have a new pre installed. also not tried with pi either.
mids and hi's plus soundstage is awesome tbh but too much bass in this room for my liking...nope they will deffo have to go!...alas..thought that pre might have helped and its improved everything including my bass problem ...yep think macca should try and get a set.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/07/787cf6c8945a2d1f5af745bc2c3e94e1.jpg
walpurgis
07-06-2015, 12:25
I would have thought something could be done to curtail the bass output. It's a two and a half way system. The lower driver being bass only and the top, bass/mid and of course the tweeter horn. Perhaps a reduction filter applied at the crossover section driving the lower driver could work. Or if it has its own network, just disconnecting it. You'll still have bass.
I would have thought something could be done to curtail the bass output. It's a two and a half way system. The lower driver being bass only and the top, bass/mid and of course the tweeter horn. Perhaps a reduction filter applied at the crossover section driving the lower driver could work. Or if it has its own network, just disconnecting it. You'll still have bass.
thought about it but kind of like putting sandbags round the door permanently when its better to move:).....will consider it though
think those 637's would be your answer mate...what nva amp did you get again?
A30 Mk2
I thought those Tannoy were a 3 way? I don't want to go back to a 2.5 way, that's not going to happen.
Got to nip round a neighbour's look at some 'hi-fi kit' he as just acquired! Exciting stuff!
dunno whether they ar 2.5 or 3 tbh.. got 3 driverslol.
Peak Power / Channel: 250 Watts
Minimum Power / Channel: 10 Watts
Drivers: 8" woofer, Dual-Concentric 8" midrange and 1" dome high frequency unit.
Frequency Response: 45Hz - 30kHz
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms
Minimum Impedance 4 Ohms
Sensitivity: 91dB
Crossover Frequencies: 400Hz and 1.7kHz
Dimensions: 286 x 820 x 264mm (W x H x D)
Weight: 16kg
Yesterday I swapped out the A30 and KEFs and put in the Linn Lk100 still using the LS 1.5 cable with the Akais.
Interesting how the cable tamed the slightly overblown, blousey nature of this amp compared to the same set=up but with the Chord Odyssey 2 cable. Trying different speakers and different amps with the various cables has given me a bit of an idea as to what is going on.
Firstly the cable - neither the LS1, LS5 or the LS 1.5 really suits the Akai. It would appear that when I got them I was just lucky I was using the Chord cable since that seems to be an ideal match. to them - Likewise the XTZ power amp. None of the other combos come close to this, although I must stress I have not once had a bad sound or a boring one - I have always been able to listen at length without losing interest in the music, so my comments should be interpreted in that light i.e I am being picky.
The LS5 with the KEF Calindas was a revelation - they prefer this cable to the Chord by a mile - quite astonishing how they opened up the bass.
Secondly the amps: Both the Linn and the NVA are slightly uncouth but in different ways. Listening again to The Doors doing Riders on the Storm the Linn is a slightly easier listen, slightly cleaner. But it did not have the same solidity to the image as the NVA, the NVA was more 'real' for want of a better word. Trouble is neither is really satisfactory, neither is up to the level that I want in terms of opening up a 'window on the recording'.
So I have decided to keep the LS5 cable as a second option to the Chord should I decide to change speakers. I'll also keep the LS 1.5 since that was a special and not really fair to return it. The amp and the loaner LS1 I will post back this afternoon.
So I still need an amp to match the Akais. That means either get the XTZ fixed if possible or try something else that will give similar results to the XTZ. Suggestion as to what that might be would be appreciated. I am thinking of something Japanese from the 1970s, maybe a Hitachi or a Yamaha. Has to be very open and very smooth sounding at the same time. What some might term 'boring' since the Akais impart the excitement themselves.
I'm disappointed that this did not work out with the A30 but hey, I tried.
I should also say that NVA have been incredibly patient and helpful through-out the process. Very good customer service indeed.
walpurgis
22-06-2015, 12:11
Try one of these mate: http://www.monarchyaudio.com/SM70_Main_frame.htm
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