View Full Version : Macca's Lash Up
walpurgis
02-02-2016, 13:12
Seems your are getting there Martin. I'll bet a recap on the IMFs will work wonders.
It will be interesting to hear them working properly. The existing caps were quite far off spec, not surprising for 40+ year-old speakers. Although the caps in the Akais, also 40 plus, were still within tolerance. Japanese engineering triumphs again.
Firebottle
02-02-2016, 13:48
I think the IMFs will be stunning Geoff when they are recapped.
There are 3 off 6uF caps on each crossover. I didn't test them all but one measured 4.3uF and another 2.1uF :eek:, never mind any change in ESR.
Suffice to say record deck vastly improved thanks to Marco's ministrations...
Glad you're pleased with the results, mate. I thought your T/T was sounding really nice at the end. Basically, the VPI stainless steel cartridge stabiliser (see here: http://www.analogueseduction.net/headshell-weights/vpi-stainless-steel-3g-headshell-weight.html ) I fitted to the headshell did two things:
1) Provided more range of VTA adjustment for your tonearm, thus negating the need to use two mats, which sonically is never a good idea. This in turn allowed the Achromat, unhindered, to perform as it should.
2) Ensured a superior mechanical 'termination' between the cartridge and headshell, which in my experience always provides sonic dividends.
That made quite a difference, as did levelling the turntable and aligning the cartridge properly, fixing it to the headshell solidly with non-magnetic Allen bolts and nuts, along with cleaning all signal contacts, on both the cartridge and headshell, with SRM-Tech 'Contact Z'. The stylus was also given a good clean with Audio Technica AT-607 stylus cleaning fluid.
I also fitted an 'IanMac' (he, on AoS, of the modified Technics bearing fame) copper washer to the bayonet housing of your (new) Ortofon SH-4 headshell, which provided some valuable decoupling. Then of course the arm was balanced and set up properly, headshell azimuth was correctly adjusted, and optimum VTF and anti-skate dialled in. Then I fitted the Nagaoka record weight.
Lastly, I applied some SRM-Tech Arezzo Reference anti-static 'platter fluid' to the Achromat, which I've had good results with, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-AREZZO-REFERENCE-PLATTER-FLUID-LOWERS-NOISE-FLOOR-QUITE-AMAZING-/331762575137?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368
The cumulative effect of all of that was, as you say, significant. It just goes to show how important correct set up is to the performance of a T/T... I think Alan was also quite surprised at the results! I was also rather shocked at how much difference the Nagaoka record clamp made, which was quite unexpected!! :eek:
Anyway, that little Nagaoka MP50 cartridge (with MP500 stylus) is very good indeed. I was very impressed by it, once we got it 'singing'. It would take a significant investment in an MC cartridge to beat it. You just a better arm now, to get the most from it ;)
Oh, and get yourself a set of Isonoe feet, for your Techy, as they'd be a no-brainer upgrade from the stock ones, which do nothing suitable for hi-fi purposes. Black or silver ones available here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Isonoe-Audio-Isolation-System-with-M6-Thread-Black-Set-of-4-/231822871875?hash=item35f9b84d43
MF speakers diagnosed with dodgy capacitors and wonky speaker terminals on Akai speakers fixed, much thanks to Alan (Firebottle).
Yup, that was an interesting discovery, and showed exactly why the IMFs were so 'sucked out' in the midrange and had no presence or 'life'. New caps will of course transform them, however, as discussed, I suspect that, even then, they won't do what the Akais do so well: create that uncanny sense of realism, as if you have musicians playing in front of you, as opposed to merely a recording of such.
For me, all that's lacking with the Akais is correct placement: somewhere on proper stands, the latter which allow the bass to provide a proper foundation for the rest of the frequency range, and that gives the Akais some much needed wall reinforcement, in order to accurately develop realistic bass frequencies. That done, they would be stunning!
Anyway, the sound you've got going on now (with the Akais in the equation), certainly from your T/T, is far from broken, and should allow you to enjoy music until such time as you fix the IMFs, and decide where to go on the speaker front. So get cleaning and playing that pile of vinyl you've had sitting there for ages, and enjoy the music :cool:
We even had time to listen to some music and thankfully no-one got a parking ticket.
No, but some moaning old git knocked on my window, just as I was about to set off, and complained that I was in a 'residents only' parking space. However, based on what you'd mentioned to me earlier, I told him that if he wasn't defrauding the benefits system, he wouldn't have needed a fooking parking space, which seemed to shut him up! :lol:
;) [Only kidding, btw].
Marco.
Firebottle
02-02-2016, 15:35
I was also rather shocked at how much difference the Nagaoka record clamp made, which was quite unexpected! :eek:
Quite stunned by the difference with/without the clamp Was going to ask what it was ;)
No, but some moaning old git knocked on my window, just as I was about to set off, and complained that I was in a 'residents only' parking space. However, based on what you'd mentioned to me earlier, I told him that if he wasn't defrauding the benefits system, he wouldn't have needed a fooking parking space, which seemed to shut him up! :lol:
That's so funny :rfl:
Anybody got a spare record clamp/weight I could try? :)
Cancel that, I can try the clamp plate from my RCM.
Hehehehe..... Moi can be a naughtee big daftee sometimes :eyebrows:
This record weight used was this one: http://www.analogueseduction.net/record-clamps/nagaoka-rc-401-record-cleaner-record-weight.html
Marco.
Nice little things those.. Just about the weight of a record
This is what you really need, I have used one and they are excellent.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7677-vpi-hrx-stainless-steel-center-weight.aspx
How heavy is it, Jim, in terms of grams? You have to be careful, as some bearings (and suspended T/Ts) don't like high-mass weights...
Marco.
Most normal streets would be denuded of cars at midday on a Monday but not mine. I'm surprised Alan and Marco could find any space to park at all.
The record clamp is interesting as I have not previously been a fan of them but the difference it made when playing the Isaac Hayes' version of 'Fever' was quite significant, without it the bass line lost a bit of pep and propulsion and that affected the whole 'groove' of the tune and consequently the amount of enjoyment derived from listening to it.
I've kept it to experiment further as I'm not yet convinced that it is beneficial to every recording, but that will take a fair bit of time to assess.
The duff caps in the IMFs certainly explain that slight 'sounds of the '70s' feel that they have no matter what is played. Clearly they are a very high quality loudspeaker but they are just being hamstrung at the moment.
Marco's tweaks to the deck have advanced the SQ quite considerably, even though there were no expensive mods or changes made. Nevertheless you would not think it was even the same deck as previously, nor would a 'DJ deck' detractor think for a minute that it was essentially a stock SL1200 they were listening to; the 'balaclava effect' is no more.
So big thanks to Alan and Marco for taking the time out to come over and help me out; I owe you both a drink. :)
No worries, matey. Yer welcome... All part of the 'AoS community' thing! :grouphug: :hifive:
Marco.
How heavy is it, Jim, in terms of grams? You have to be careful, as some bearings (and suspended T/Ts) don't like high-mass weights...
Marco.
Thorens suspended need about 350gm max unless using the srm platter isolators when you can go up to 400.
How heavy is it, Jim, in terms of grams? You have to be careful, as some bearings (and suspended T/Ts) don't like high-mass weights...
Marco.
Err, think its about 700g. Yes it is a bit of a beast and probably too much for a techy. I use the Delrin clamp on my TT which screws down on centre spindle. Works very well indeed and is certainly noticeable when not used!
700g?? Ouch! No way, for a Techy or a suspended T/T... :nono:
And most belt-drives wouldn't even get off of the ground! :D
Marco.
Oldpinkman
02-02-2016, 17:11
Most normal streets would be denuded of cars at midday on a Monday but not mine. I'm surprised Alan and Marco could find any space to park at all.
Marco's tweaks to the deck have advanced the SQ quite considerably, even though there were no expensive mods or changes made. Nevertheless you would not think it was even the same deck as previously, nor would a 'DJ deck' detractor think for a minute that it was essentially a stock SL1200 they were listening to; the 'balaclava effect' is no more.
:)
Glad to hear it went well. And you have removed some of the wool from your ears. I wasn't knocking the SL1200 with the balaclava comment - it was just that the "loaner" I had while my arm was being fixed was a bit of a let down after being used to a PT. There is little doubt that there is much to be had from a good record player, and any bit can make a difference that may or may not be worth the money you need to spend (we all have different budgets and value for money criteria).
Achromat is very often a very significant improvement relative to the bucks spent. I stick by my original thoughts that if I had £500 to spend the next thing I would change on the Techie is the arm - especially if you are not VTA on the fly fixated. That isn't to say that bearings, power supplies, platters and the like make no difference. But the arm is very ordinary.
You'd be really surprised what a decent arm does for the sound, even with "only" a MM cartridge :cool:
Oldpinkman
02-02-2016, 17:16
Hehehehe..... Moi can be a naughtee big daftee sometimes :eyebrows:
This record weight used was this one: http://www.analogueseduction.net/record-clamps/nagaoka-rc-401-record-cleaner-record-weight.html
Marco.
I'm a bit confused. The add calls it a record cleaner weight/clamp, then says its not a clamp, and doesn't clean records but cleans stylus.
Just 4 beats to the bar guys.
I've never been keen on weights (flimsy suspended sub-chassis) - but quite like clamps - especially for warped or dished records. Hence my interest in modding the PT to make it easier to use a Michel clamp.
But even ignoring the suspension issue - is 180g as a weight, not a clamp, enough?
Apparantly if Martins reaction is anything to go by. :scratch:
Its more like a soft clamp tbh. More of a stablizer come styli cleaner which it does a good job of... It takes a little guts to lower your cart onto it mind
Hi Richard,
It's a record weight, not a clamp. It simply pops over the spindle, to help couple the record to the mat, but applies no 'clamping pressure'. The stylus cleaning bit is simply the yellow fluffy stuff in the middle. As it's situated near where the stylus is when playing a record, it's handy to use a brush, with which to remove any accumulated fluff.
It works well, as the bristles are extremely fine, and so there is little chance of damaging your stylus.
Agree with your comments about the tonearm. I discussed this with Martin, and he seems quite spurred on now into making improvements to his T/T (since it's been suitably 'reinvigorated'), so I'm sure that a new tonearm is in the pipeline, for some time in the future. He mentioned that he was considering an Audiomods.
I can assure you that there is no 'balaclava effect' with a properly set-up SL-1200/1210, even a stock one, providing a decent cartridge and mat are fitted.
Marco.
Oldpinkman
02-02-2016, 17:36
Hi Richard,
It's a record weight, not a clamp. It simply pops over the spindle, to help couple the record to the mat, but applies no 'clamping pressure'. The stylus cleaning bit is simply the yellow fluffy stuff in the middle. As it's situated near where the stylus is when playing a record, it's handy to use a brush, with which to remove any accumulated fluff.
It works well, as the bristles are extremely fine, and so there is little chance of damaging your stylus.
Agree with your comments about the tonearm. I discussed this with Martin, and he seems quite spurred on now into making improvements to his T/T (since it's been suitably 'reinvigorated'), so I'm sure that a new tonearm is in the pipeline, for some time in the future. He mentioned that he was considering an Audiomods.
I can assure you that there is no 'balaclava effect' with a properly set-up SL-1200/1210, even a stock one, providing a decent cartridge and mat are fitted.
Marco.
Interesting. Less faff than a clamp - although not going to do the same service for badly warped / dished records which is my no 1 driver.
If Martin is interested in trying an arm, I can see if I can persuade Grumpy to lend him one, since it is in Grumpy's interests to have more people try his arms, and I am a bit sad and lonely on here sometimes, and feel like John the Baptist on locusts in the wilderness every time the standard "old school" arm suggestions are trotted out. It was quite nice when RichB came on and confirmed I'm not loony about the quality of the pressing of "Kind of Blue".
I can't promise anything - it will depend if he has a unit available, but F5 works well on the Techie, and I bet F6 would. No obligation - free to say what he likes about it, just take decent care and post it back when finished.
Let me know if you are interested Martin, and I'll try to catch him on a good day. :rolleyes:
Thanks Richard. The arm will be under serious consideration later in the year or maybe next since I have an annual hi fi budget I try not to exceed and an achromat, isone feet plus the new caps for the IMFs will eat into it a bit and we are only one month in. But 'Mister Grumpy' will be gettg an order for an Achromat this week so that might cheer him a little.
Seem to be getting a bit more bass out of the Akais too, which I can't explain excep tightening the terminal connections on the inside could be responsible. Listening now and I am one happy camper at the moment.
Interesting. Less faff than a clamp - although not going to do the same service for badly warped / dished records which is my no 1 driver.
If you'd like to try a very effective and inexpensive, low-mass, clamp, I can thoroughly recommend the SRM-Tech 'The Revolution', which I'm currently using on my T/T, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-REVOLUTION-SOFT-CLAMP-BY-SRM-TECH-With-Spirit-Level-For-Perfect-Set-Up-/272118088654?hash=item3f5b8083ce:m:mL5f4_dBCvk_n10 k15uR9rA
The Sorbothane material used (especially when lightly moistened with a damp cloth), really 'grips' the record tightly, via the label, but applies no force as such, and so doesn't put any pressure onto the bearing, but certainly couples the record firmly to the mat, preventing any 'slippage' during playback, thus ensuring accurate information retrieval from the record grooves.
However, what I like most about its design, is how it dampens both vibration/resonance in the spindle itself and also on records, both of which then *isn't* picked up by the stylus, subsequently muddying the music signal. The effectiveness of the record damping is evidenced by tapping the label (with the record sitting on the platter) first, with no clamp, and then afterwards with the clamp fitted.
The resulting 'tone' heard both times clearly shows how much better the record is damped with the clamp fitted, and sonically, this translates into a notable decrease in the noisefloor present, and subsequent increase in overall clarity and detail retrieval, together with a deeper and more tuneful/textured bass. The improvement it provides (certainly on my T/T) is really quite remarkable! :)
Marco.
Seem to be getting a bit more bass out of the Akais too, which I can't explain excep tightening the terminal connections on the inside could be responsible. Listening now and I am one happy camper at the moment.
Don't rule out the effect also of the T/T being properly set-up now (including the effectiveness of the 'accessories' used, especially the cartridge stabiliser), and thus cumulatively, revealing more of what's *actually* on recordings.... ;)
Glad you're happy now, though. That was the result I was hoping for! :cool:
Marco.
If you'd like to try a very effective and inexpensive, low-mass, clamp, I can thoroughly recommend the SRM-Tech 'The Revolution', which I'm currently using on my T/T, see here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-REVOLUTION-SOFT-CLAMP-BY-SRM-TECH-With-Spirit-Level-For-Perfect-Set-Up-/272118088654?hash=item3f5b8083ce:m:mL5f4_dBCvk_n10 k15uR9rA
The Sorbothane material used (especially when lightly moistened with a damp cloth), really 'grips' the record tightly, via the label, but applies no force as such, and so doesn't put any pressure onto the bearing, but certainly couples the record firmly to the mat, preventing any 'slippage' during playback, thus ensuring accurate information retrieval from the record grooves.
However, what I like most about its design, is how it dampens both vibration/resonance in the spindle itself and also on records, both of which then *isn't* picked up by the stylus, muddying the music signal. The effectiveness of the record damping is evidenced by tapping the label (with the record sitting on the platter) first, with no clamp, and then afterwards with the clamp fitted.
The resulting 'tone' heard both times clearly shows how much better the record is damped with the clamp fitted, and sonically, this translates into a notable decrease in the noisefloor present, and subsequent increase in overall clarity and detail retrieval, together with a deeper and more tuneful/textured bass. The improvement it gives (certainly on my T/T) is really quite remarkable! :)
Marco.
as said before they are good; had one a few years ago, but the hole has a habit of widening after time a bit. Think they need to make the bit in middle harder.... we all like it a bit harder.:D
Oldpinkman
02-02-2016, 18:59
Thanks Richard. The arm will be under serious consideration later in the year or maybe next since I have an annual hi fi budget I try not to exceed and an achromat, isone feet plus the new caps for the IMFs will eat into it a bit and we are only one month in. But 'Mister Grumpy' will be gettg an order for an Achromat this week so that might cheer him a little.
Seem to be getting a bit more bass out of the Akais too, which I can't explain excep tightening the terminal connections on the inside could be responsible. Listening now and I am one happy camper at the moment.
Up to you. I'll ask if you're interested to try - I think yours would be an interesting opinion, and because of his pathetic lack of UK dealers, nobody gets to even see one never mind hear one. AK wouldn't be looking to make a sale - just stop me nagging him, so the fact that you're not in a position financially to buy wouldn't matter. Just send it back when you are done (He may not say yes - well, you may have to wait a while to catch him in the right mood, and my priority for those days is my PT mods)
If you're looking at isonoes, I would PM Cagey for his thoughts on Boing. I don't think they are much more expensive, and as is well documented, I am a fan of bouncers, and they certainly worked well on the Rega.
Of course - that is the other option. Instead of an endless stream of improvements to a Techie, buy a proper turntable :D
...but the hole has a habit of widening after time a bit. Think they need to make the bit in middle harder....
You don't honestly expect me to comment on that?!? :eek: :D
Marco.
Of course - that is the other option. Instead of an endless stream of improvements to a Techie, buy a proper turntable :D
Is that one that spins at the wrong speed? :lol: ;)
Marco.
700g?? Ouch! No way, for a Techy or a suspended T/T... :nono:
And most belt-drives wouldn't even get off of the ground! :D
Marco.
I forgot how delicate techy TT was. My VPI Scout it 15Kg and has a massive heavy platter on a very chunky bearing so the weight is not really a problem.:D I can see how it would be a bit too much for suspended TT and those built of a lighter construction.:eek:
I forgot how delicate techy TT was.
Lol... It's not "delicate" at all; that's not the issue - it's just that it sounds crap with high-mass clamps or weights, as it was never designed to be used with such. The VPI is different, because it was made to take a high-mass clamp, and so that is an integral part of its design :)
Marco.
Glad to hear that you intend recapping the IMFs. The midrange in mine opened up beautifully after a recap and is definitely one of the strong suits of the TLS50. BTW dont forget to recap the switches at the terminals as these remain in circuit even when in 'neutral'. I think a sorted pair of TLS50s are massively under-rated - real heft and presence, lovely lucid midrange and sweet treble but their one weakness is that they are very insensitive. Whilst not slow, they will never have the ultimate speed and dynamism of large sensitive speakers.
jandl100
04-02-2016, 06:21
It'll be interesting to see how the IMF re-cap pans out.
Improved but still basically the same, I imagine.
I heard many of them when they were newly out - the only one worthy of my music was the TLS50, the rest were plodders, and the bigger they got, the ploddier they were. Which wasn't important to some listeners, who were (rightly) staggered by the bass performance and overall sense of scale of the big buggers.
And what's with the bad vibes about paper drivers? - fast and detailed, gooduns - especially lightly doped - make plastic cones seem closed in and drab. It's just a different balance of virtues, they have a lot going for them, ime.
Oldpinkman
04-02-2016, 07:35
It'll be interesting to see how the IMF re-cap pans out.
Improved but still basically the same, I imagine.
I heard many of them when they were newly out - the only one worthy of my music was the TLS50, the rest were plodders, and the bigger they got, the ploddier they were. Which wasn't important to some listeners, who were (rightly) staggered by the bass performance and overall sense of scale of the big buggers.
And what's with the bad vibes about paper drivers? - fast and detailed, gooduns - especially lightly doped - make plastic cones seem closed in and drab. It's just a different balance of virtues, they have a lot going for them, ime.
I'm a sheets of clingfilm man myself. ;)
jandl100
04-02-2016, 07:39
I'm a sheets of clingfilm man myself. ;)
sheets of clingfilm? What do you do with them. :scratch:
No, on 2nd thoughts I just don't even want to think about that. :nono:
It's totally put me off my breakfast. :
Firebottle
04-02-2016, 08:04
He means the mylar diaphragms in the 'statics silly :eyebrows:
I don't want to think of clingfilm either but at least I've had my breakfast.
:)
I heard many of them when they were newly out - the only one worthy of my music was the TLS50, the rest were plodders, and the bigger they got, the ploddier they were. Which wasn't important to some listeners, who were (rightly) staggered by the bass performance and overall sense of scale of the big buggers.
Given what I've heard before from speakers of this type, and what I heard from the bass end of Martin's IMFs (cap deterioration aside), I'd have to agree.
There was indeed plenty of bass, but compared with what I'm used to from my own speakers, and what I consider as 'accurate', I'd have to agree with the "ploddy" thing, especially after being, for many years now, attuned to the 'speed' and completely 'un-ploddy' nature of paper drivers.
We'll see whether the forthcoming cap upgrades help sort that out, but I have a feeling that it's somewhat intrinsic to the design of TLs, and that the bass from the Akais paper drivers (especially when the speakers are optimised with the use of appropriate stands, and more favourable room placement), will be more my cup of tea.
And what's with the bad vibes about paper drivers? - fast and detailed, gooduns - especially lightly doped - make plastic cones seem closed in and drab. It's just a different balance of virtues, they have a lot going for them, ime.
I completely agree. Many of the best speakers I've heard have featured the use of (big) paper drivers. I enjoy both their efficiency, and like you say, their fast, tight and detailed sound :)
Marco.
My preference is also for paper drivers so no arguments there. As regards the bass on the TLS50 their strength is the amount of power in the lower registers. They will play a low bass fundamental with power and 90% of speakers at any price won't do that, they just deliver a weak impression of what an electric bass guitar sounds like.
But there is some trade off with speed and tightness, no question about that. It is interesting to hear how much bass there actually is on recordings I previously thought to be a bit bass-light.
As regards the bass on the TLS50 their strength is the amount of power in the lower registers. They will play a low bass fundamental with power and 90% of speakers at any price won't do that, they just deliver a weak impression of what an electric bass guitar sounds like.
Yup, that's undoubtedly one of their good points.
But there is some trade off with speed and tightness, no question about that.
That's a certainty, as nothing is perfect. Every speaker made, to date, was born as a balance of compromises, so you have to choose the trade-offs you can live with most. Simples :)
Marco.
The big IMF's are plodders, until you sort the amplification out - and all too many domestic-grade amps in the 70's just couldn't hack it with them. At the time it had to be Crown D series through fairly chunky speaker cables. The bass 'works' much better then in my experience. I miss them terribly and the Compacts I currently use are too much of a reminder just how good IMF were back then and I keep thinking back forty odd years......... - and the Yahoo Spendor group just won't believe that BC1's could/can be equalled in the mids and bettered in the bass, but there's another story ;)
Favourite IMF's of old were the RSPM IV (no plodder this one) and TLS80 II before the drivers switched to Elac. Sadly, the TLS50 was too 'dinky' and we didn't sell as many.
Good luck with the recap Macca. Check the state of the internal wadding too, I've heard tales that some doesn't last. My Compacts are lined with fibre-glass, so all's well..
Hi Dave
The sponge -since that is what it is - inside is fine, in fact it looks brand new - I took some photos of it and the internals but haven't uploaded them out of the camera yet.
I resisted the temptation to rip it all out ;)
No question that there us a very high quality, very refined and very capable 'speaker in there that should be realised with the capacitor replacement.
Whether they will then be entirely to my taste I just don't know. All part of the fun. :)
Ali Tait
04-02-2016, 13:42
My preference is also for paper drivers so no arguments there. As regards the bass on the TLS50 their strength is the amount of power in the lower registers. They will play a low bass fundamental with power and 90% of speakers at any price won't do that, they just deliver a weak impression of what an electric bass guitar sounds like.
But there is some trade off with speed and tightness, no question about that. It is interesting to hear how much bass there actually is on recordings I previously thought to be a bit bass-light.
Might be worth playing with the wadding in the transmission line.
yes but when you say 'playing' what exactly does that entail? Also actually getting access to the greater part of the line itself without dismantling the speaker would be impossible. You can access the top bit behind the bass driver and the area at the end of the line at the front base of the speaker where it exhausts into the room. As for the bits in between, no chance.
walpurgis
04-02-2016, 14:33
Might be worth playing with the wadding in the transmission line.
My thoughts too. Teased out long fibre wool is the stuff for damping the bass in TL cabs. I tend to put it in the last third of the line. It must not be packed tight. The difference this stuff makes is amazing. Look under 'crafts' in eBay and you'll find some. It's not dear.
Here's a source of reference on damping materials: http://www.qtasystems.co.uk/articles/how-to-damping.htm
I've got a box of long haired wool I bought years ago but as I said replacing the existing damping with it is not a practical possibility.
walpurgis
04-02-2016, 15:25
I reckon you could poke a fair bit up from the bottom of the line using one of those long flexible drain/sink prodders that are made of wire spring. They sell them in the £1 shops.
I'd have to get al the existing foam/sponge stuff out first. That would be a game and a half. I'm not a practical person when it comes to this sort of DIY. I'm a bodger - my annual consumption of gaffer tape is several rolls. Just soldering in the new capacitors will be a challenge for me, Geoff!
I'm not a practical person when it comes to this sort of DIY. I'm a bodger...
Yes, I discovered that, given how 'well' you had your turntable and cartridge set up! :eyebrows: ;)
More seriously, I hope that it's still hitting the spot... When are you ordering your new Achromat and Isonoes? :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
04-02-2016, 16:49
Yes, I discovered that, given how 'well' you had your turntable and cartridge set up! :eyebrows: ;)
More seriously, I hope that it's still hitting the spot... When are you ordering your new Achromat and Isonoes? :)
Marco.
Given how excited you were to try BO!NG before Christmas, and planning to do so Marco, I am surprised you are rushing Martin into Isonoes. I realise he now realises that isolation is important - but wouldn't it make sense to see what you think of springs first?
walpurgis
04-02-2016, 16:52
I'd have to get al the existing foam/sponge stuff out first.
No mate. The teased wool goes in the void between the existing pads of damping on each wall. It only needs to be stuffed loosely in and you don't need huge quantities. The effects are very audible.
The existing sponge has hardly any damping effect on low frequencies by the way. It just 'steers' them around the line.
I'm way behind with everything, so sorry to anyone who is waiting for me to do something.
ordering/payments/anything else will all happen on Saturday.
re: the feet. I'm not sold on the idea of introducing springs to the SL1200. The Achromat is a deffo so I can send Ali his one back.
BTW my TT wasn't set up that badly, the cart was about 1 mm short of where it should have been and the two mat thing was a lash up born of necessity. The better sound is down to the new headshell, getting rid of the second mat and the clamp. Plus possibly cleaning the contacts.
At least that is my story and I'm sticking to it ;)
Hi Dave
The sponge -since that is what it is - inside is fine, in fact it looks brand new - I took some photos of it and the internals but haven't uploaded them out of the camera yet.
I resisted the temptation to rip it all out ;)
No question that there us a very high quality, very refined and very capable 'speaker in there that should be realised with the capacitor replacement.
Whether they will then be entirely to my taste I just don't know. All part of the fun. :)
Hope you don't mind - I'm only involved here because my Compacts share the same plastic surround midrange drivers as your particular pair - later ones (late 50mk1's and Super Compacts) used a similar looking mottle-doped (SEAS made this time?) cone but with foam surrounds which crumble. If my old IMF's are anything to go by, the midrange clarity is potentially superb and very like good headphones - and not all crossover capacitors are actually in the signal path by the way ;)
Ali makes a great point and IMF themselves did add more damping to the lines in later models I believe - I don't know how far they went back then I'm afraid as interest in design didn't come to me until years later. Adding loose/teased long fibre 'acoustic' wool (best to weigh how much carefully for each speaker) will take some of the 'waffle' away from very low bass and the benefit works higher up as well - over 100Hz I think, where usually you have a slight out of phase dip in the mid to upper bass response (audible) where the line output port interferes with the bass driver. As Marco says, all a compromise and it's nice to have similar bass extension (if of different perceived quality) to Marco's humungous Lockwood boxes ;) One area where mid 70's BIG JBL's had a huge advantage was in the bass. A shame the advantage didn't spread to the midrange back then...
Given how excited you were to try BO!NG before Christmas, and planning to do so Marco, I am surprised you are rushing Martin into Isonoes. I realise he now realises that isolation is important - but wouldn't it make sense to see what you think of springs first?
Hi Richard,
Unfortunately, I've been completely put off BOING, due to the chap on here (I forget who it was now) who bought some for his Techy, installed them, and whilst he initially said that he liked them, later discovered that he wasn't enjoying listening to music. Then he put his Isonoes back in, and all was well again...
Therefore, I'm afraid that the jury's still out on BOING, and I wouldn't risk a purchase on that basis. However, since you're advocating Arthur to send tonearms out for Macca to try, if he sends him a set of BOING, I'll bring my Isonoes along to his place and do a comparison.
If the BOING win, then I'll order a set - and Martin might, too! Sounds fair? :)
Marco.
BTW my TT wasn't set up that badly, the cart was about 1 mm short of where it should have been and the two mat thing was a lash up born of necessity. The better sound is down to the new headshell, getting rid of the second mat and the clamp. Plus possibly cleaning the contacts.
At least that is my story and I'm sticking to it ;)
:lolsign:
Aye - I'm saying nowt! ;)
Marco
I'm way behind with everything, so sorry to anyone who is waiting for me to do something.
ordering/payments/anything else will all happen on Saturday.
re: the feet. I'm not sold on the idea of introducing springs to the SL1200. The Achromat is a deffo so I can send Ali his one back.
BTW my TT wasn't set up that badly, the cart was about 1 mm short of where it should have been and the two mat thing was a lash up born of necessity. The better sound is down to the new headshell, getting rid of the second mat and the clamp. Plus possibly cleaning the contacts.
At least that is my story and I'm sticking to it ;)
The position of the cartridge depends on the gauge you used originally. Remember the different inner null points, the Techie suggestion different to the two conventionally used ones (57mm from disc centre instead of 65mm (Stevenson?) or 60mm (Baerwald?). This could account for a mm or so difference for and aft in the headshell slots so don't lose sleep over it ;)
Interesting how the Isonoes have such a following. A laterally shimmying LP12 sub-chassis totally fecked up the sound. yet the Isonoes have literally no vertical movement but shimmy sideways alarmingly and I suspect the Boing feet and similar would be more of a vertical movement, the lateral movement quickly damped out. I probably have it totally wrong but still.. I'd just suggest removing the lid completely when playing as this really does affect 'solid plinth' decks in my experience and not just the Techie...
Marco is right i'm afraid it wasn't the best set up tt in the world. That's what comes of relying on the deakers to set it up fir all those years. If you don't do then you don't learn. And I was digital only for about five years after that.
The cart was set up using the technics alignment gauge, as it should be if using the stock arm. And I never play records with thr lid on. Never have, never will.
Oldpinkman
04-02-2016, 18:00
Hi Richard,
Unfortunately, I've been completely put off BOING, due to the chap on here (I forget who it was now) who bought some for his Techy, installed them, and whilst he initially said that he liked them, later discovered that he wasn't enjoying listening to music. Then he put his Isonoes back in, and all was well again...
Therefore, I'm afraid that the jury's still out on BOING, and I wouldn't risk a purchase on that basis. However, since you're advocating Arthur to send tonearms out for Macca to try, if he sends him a set of BOING, I'll bring my Isonoes along to his place and do a comparison.
If the BOING win, then I'll order a set - and Martin might, too! Sounds fair? :)
Marco.
Sounds very fair. Whether I can get old Grumpy to see its in his interests is another matter. It doesn't look like it will be this week, but I'll have a go if I see an opportunity. :cool:
Might have been Alfa in Sweden.. he has been doing some tests of late... not heard his final verdict yet.
Yes, I think it was Alfa :)
Marco.
winstonmalcolm
05-02-2016, 04:47
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree generally with the negative comments re TLS50s and the 'moding' advice (there are times when less is more).
I think you should aim to restore the original performance as you may be surprised just how good they really are. When I got mine I knew instantly they were not right and that was after never having heard IMF before so this 70s sound is not part of their normal sound signature. As others often say you would have to spend thousands on modern speakers to get anyway near close to them so investment in getting them right is well worth it. Falcon is the place to go.
I don't think yours have the caps on the switches just resistors , they look identical to mine, the mk1s with the double switches.
Also if you get the caps from Falcon they do a kit , watch out for the way the wires are bent on the caps. They are matched pairs , they'll come in two bags and the caps that pair up will have the legs bent in a similar way. Many people overlook matching when buying caps ,obviously even when within specification there will be significant differences in the actual measured values of identically spec'ed components.
I'd also suggest continuity checking the tweeters (emf allowing) as it's more difficult than you might think hearing if a tweeter is down with these 4 ways . I found the toilet roll trick didn't work as well as hoped as HF from the nearby super/tweeter would always seemed to muddy the test.
Good Luck
Looking forward to your post recap review.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree generally with the negative comments re TLS50s...
Hi Winston,
Not intentionally "negative"; merely frank and honest, based on what we can hear/have heard, and what our experience tells us.
I too hope that, with a judicious recap, Martin's IMFs are transformed into the best speakers in the world, but the reality is that, as good as they'll be, at what they do best, they'll have their inherent compromises/limitations, the same as every other loudspeakers on the planet.
Therefore, after recapping the TLS50s, ultimately, Martin will have to decide which 'flavour of sound' he prefers and considers right for his ears and system: that of the IMFs or the Akais :)
Marco.
Thanks Winston - I'm inclined to agree that restoring to original spec (and no mods) is the way to go. Marco and Alan only had a brief listen to them; I think with longer exposure they would have got more of an idea of what these speakers are potentially capable of.
Indeed, of that there is no doubt, and equally I have no doubt that I'll enjoy them (far more) once they've been recapped.
However, my opinion wasn't simply based on what I heard from your speakers, but what I've heard in the past from other IMFs, and speakers of that ilk, which also do the 'transmission line thing' with aplomb.
Thing is though, ultimately it's whether you prefer your music presented that way, or via the use of some other speakers, which have a different balance of virtues. You simply can't get away from the fact that the IMFs (no matter how well sorted) will never sound like the Akais, or vice versa, so in the end, you'll simply have to choose your favourite illusion of reality :)
Marco.
True. It will be restored IMFs vs Akai with custom dipole subwoofer
Think youran Akai man. Just need them off the floor a bit.
I would tend to agree - and also provided with some wall reinforcement, which being sealed boxes, they need.
The Akais sound superb in every way, other than the bass end (the opposite challenge from the IMFs), which is not being allowed to develop properly, simply because they're being used in free space, and so sound 'all-midrange and top end', and a bit lean.
Essentially, the sound he's getting needs 'fleshed out' more, in order to add richness and remove a tendency to sterility. The level of that effect heard, however, is significantly recording dependent.
The problem Martin has is that he likes to use the full length of his room, and doesn't like listening, in comparison, 'near field', which is what would happen if he changed his current listening position, and placed the speakers along the width, rather than length of his room, but I'm afraid that situation is inevitable (and compromises will have to be made) if he's ever going to get the Akais to work properly, chez-Macca.
Marco.
I've experimented with subwoofery already and got good results, despite the sub not really being suitable for the purpose. Listening to Red Hot Chillis last night the bass guitar sounded excellent.
I just need a better subwoofer than the Yamaha thing I have at the moment. Once that is sorted the free space positioning won't matter. I'm not moving to a poxy near-field set up; the reason I bought the house in the first place was so I could have a good far-field set-up.
Lol - no worries... You'll still need appropriate stands, though (for the Akais).
Best of luck then with the sub, but I suspect that, for me, it'll smack somewhat of 'locking the stable door, after the horse has bolted', or what one could call 'applying the use of a bandage, rather than healing the wound'... ;)
I'll certainly let you know what I think when I hear it next (if you've sorted out a sub by that time), but of course, your system has to please you, not me :)
Marco.
In my ATC days, I was advised to recommend the speakers firing across a longer room. Recent reading and experiences in our last house with a terribly over-rectangular room (25' x 10' 6") showed me that actually, having the speakers firing down the length BUT with them pulled well out from the narrow wall behind them can also work wonders. Isobariks and Saras used to prefer pointing down a room's length, but there were hobbled to a degree by needing the wall behind to augment their lean tones..
Transmission-line bass is very different from a huge well damped 15" cone working in a huge box, as Marco discovered. Old Tannoys NEED a huge box to get bass low enough. The whole point of transmission lines, of which the TLS50 was IMF's baby, was to fool the speaker that it goes lower than it otherwise could and there were compromises. IMF themselves needed to tauten them up a bit as time went on and amp damping factors went out of the window once again and maybe a look at any surviving documents on the later TLS50mk2's would perhaps show what was done.
I KNOW I bang on about damping factor in amps and remember how I was dismissed on a rather patronising audio forum for mentioning it - this manufacturer has now done some study of their own and is working very hard to decrease the resistive effect of their crossovers. These IMF's offer NO mechanical/box damping on the bass driver in the box and the passive crossover will only make this worse (although fancy caps will help a bit), so it's all up to the amp - and transformer coupled valve amps need not apply in this case, as even the very best have transformer wiring adding output resistance. It's all about amp matching and what's right for the TLS50 almost certainly WON'T be good for the Akais as the two approaches are extremely poles apart in my opinion.
Interesting, Dave. I am using the XTZ power amp for both - this has a high damping factor, high current and fairly high (110W into 8 ohm) power.
Valve amps do seem to work well with the Akais, having tried the Firebottle OTL and the Firebottle 'Dulci' ( 6 watts ) although the Dulci does not have the power to drive the Akais to sufficient levels for a far-field set up.
Both Marco and Alan were quite impressed with the performance of the Akais which shows that I was not kidding myself, which is a relief ;). Plenty of similar 'kabuki' speakers out there and they are still sleepers at the moment, price-wise.
My speaker direction is changing yet again and I'm going to be inundated with speakers shortly (:(), otherwise I'd have offered to take the TLS50's off your hands when you'd finished with them (the larger ones are impossible for me sadly) as I love the midrange driver's abilities and can tolerate the B200;). It was going to be some neat TDL Studio1M's but the BBC Legacy' bug just won't leave me and I have some wonderful friends who claim I did them huge favours in times past...
The XTZ should be a great match as you've found - did you get it fixed or has it sorted itself out? The Akais definitely would prefer a sweet toned valve or early ss amp, again as you've found, maybe a Quad 303 if you find a good one? A 303 into bigger IMF's was a disaster I remember.
You know, a shame Jerry's sold his Crown power amps now. The D-150 was what we used day to day when demming IMF's and the DC-300A was for 'best'. Not an 'animal' amp as it once was, but good ones hold their value well at around £300 to £400.
Turned out there was never anything wrong with the XTZ, it was the CD player all along.
A sorted 303 would be a very good match with the Akais I think, but I doubt it would have enough power for the room - my NVA A30 doesn't really cut it power-wise and I suspect that has a little bit more welly than a 303, I'd be surprised if it was less powerful.
So what speakers are you getting your hands on?
Oldpinkman
05-02-2016, 16:58
Turned out there was never anything wrong with the XTZ, it was the CD player all along.
A sorted 303 would be a very good match with the Akais I think, but I doubt it would have enough power for the room - my NVA A30 doesn't really cut it power-wise and I suspect that has a little bit more welly than a 303, I'd be surprised if it was less powerful.
So what speakers are you getting your hands on?
You need an AHB2 mate ;)
jandl100
06-02-2016, 06:38
I I'm not moving to a poxy near-field set up; the reason I bought the house in the first place was so I could have a good far-field set-up.
Pah! - far-field wishy washy bloom. :nono:
Near field detail and precision rules. :carrot:
Oldpinkman
06-02-2016, 07:41
Pah! - far-field wishy washy bloom. :nono:
Near field detail and precision rules. :carrot:
Au contraire, mon brave. How fabulous to have all that space but it cries out for a pair of esl63 and a decent sub (or pair of subs) If you are that fixated on bass. Or borrow my rastafarian friend Bernies reggae system. And collection of over 1000 reggae cd's
And call yourself Reg (Reggie to your friends) ;)
Pah! - far-field wishy washy bloom. :nono:
Near field detail and precision rules. :carrot:
A discussion for another thread I think!
In the meantime here are a couple of pictures of the IMFs
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/imf%20internal%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/imf%20internal%20001.jpg.html)
Crossover:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/imf%20internal%20002.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/imf%20internal%20002.jpg.html)
tubehunter
06-02-2016, 09:27
Looking a bit tired. Replacing the black electrolytic capacitors should improve things no end.
Are these the Mk 2 tls50's, they look it.
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/TLS5020Mk202_zpsgr9airqo.jpg (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/TLS5020Mk202_zpsgr9airqo.jpg.html)
I'm told they are MK 1 but from reading up there does seem to be blurred lines between the various versions.
jandl100
06-02-2016, 10:54
Au contraire, mon brave. How fabulous to have all that space but it cries out for a pair of esl63 and a decent sub (or pair of subs) If you are that fixated on bass. Or borrow my rastafarian friend Bernies reggae system. And collection of over 1000 reggae cd's
And call yourself Reg (Reggie to your friends) ;)
Nah. I deliberately choose my listening rooms to be not too big as I dislike the acoustics of large rooms.
Seeing all that i am glad i have a full range driver and no gubbins.
I've had full range one driver speakers and they are just another compromise. Ultimately I found them unsatisfying. Many different approaches to the loudspeaker and all are valid, and all are compromises in some way, you choose your poison with speakers, really.
Had a listen last night to Joni Mitchell 'Blue' -on CD - not listened to this in over a decade as it is a pretty bleak album about desperation and loneliness and won't cheer you up if you are felling down. But man! Joni was there in the room! In fact I could sort of almost visualise her guitar and the stool she was sitting on. Not the best recording ever but it is very 'live' sounding. Not heard it like that before, and I've had a copy of this album since I was 17.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 11:29
I've had full range one driver speakers and they are just another compromise. Ultimately I found them unsatisfying. Many different approaches to the loudspeaker and all are valid, and all are compromises in some way, you choose your poison with speakers, really.
Are you still resisting the Tannoy option Martin? :D
A nice little pair of Eatons would be good on the end of your system.
http://i64.tinypic.com/313sljk.jpg
My old ones, they sounded lovely.
Too small. Plus I'm advised that my room not suitable for Tannoy DC.
I've had full range one driver speakers and they are just another compromise. Ultimately I found them unsatisfying. Many different approaches to the loudspeaker and all are valid, and all are compromises in some way, you choose your poison with speakers, really.
Had a listen last night to Joni Mitchell 'Blue' -on CD - not listened to this in over a decade as it is a pretty bleak album about desperation and loneliness and won't cheer you up if you are felling down. But man! Joni was there in the room! In fact I could sort of almost visualise her guitar and the stool she was sitting on. Not the best recording ever but it is very 'live' sounding. Not heard it like that before, and I've had a copy of this album since I was 17.
Ive got a 180gm reissue. Its bleak as you say.lol. I dont like silly amounts of bass although these 12" drivers can go pretty deep. My hearing only goes to about 12kh top and these comfortably go well above that. The mids are lovely so for me its win win plus they are super efficient although not to levels of the telefunkens.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 12:24
Too small. Plus I'm advised that my room not suitable for Tannoy DC.
How can your room be unsuitable? The Tannoys should work in any room. They're just speakers. Admittedly a pair of 15" Yorks or Lockwoods may be a bit overkill.
The Eatons may not be very big, but they pack a wallop and have a solid, punchy bottom end. The HPD 295A driver is a beauty. Rubber surrounds too, no rotting foam! I've owned five pairs of them. :)
I'm told they need to be quite close to a wall and I can't do that in my room. Otherwise something like Lockwoods would be ideal, they would not be overkill by any stretch.
Ali Tait
06-02-2016, 14:12
OB Martin. All the benefits of a wide range driver and little of the compromises..
How can your room be unsuitable? The Tannoys should work in any room.
Martin needs speakers that he can use in free space, Geoff, and IME (and that of many others), big Tannoy DCs simply don't work well there.
Marco.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 15:33
Martin needs speakers that he can use in free space, Geoff, and IME (and that of many others), big Tannoy DCs simply don't work well there.
Marco.
The Eatons mentioned are pretty compact and work well in free space. They have all the proper Tannoy tonality and transparency, plus a decent bottom end despite the smaller dimensions. I actually prefer the driver to the 12" MG from which it is derived.
Firebottle
06-02-2016, 17:23
Looking at the component values on that crossover circuit Martin has definitely got the Mark 1.
Duncan have you got a copy of the Mark 1 crossover circuit?
tubehunter
06-02-2016, 17:53
Looking at the picture the board has the 4 inductors and the 7 capacitors of the mk 2 crossover
I can only make out 6uf and 100uf.
If Martin could list the values of all the caps it would be helpful.
The resistors are on the switches and wired to the board.
Below is the mk1 board which doesn't match up with Martin's
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/TLS50-XO_zps3jfimted.gif (http://s514.photobucket.com/user/halx00/media/TLS50-XO_zps3jfimted.gif.html)
Firebottle
06-02-2016, 18:36
Strange.
Anyway I measured the larger caps and they were in tolerance.
I then measured the 3x 6uF and they were way out. These are the ones Martin is going to change.
southall-1998
06-02-2016, 18:49
Are you still resisting the Tannoy option Martin? :D
A nice little pair of Eatons would be good on the end of your system.
http://i64.tinypic.com/313sljk.jpg
My old ones, they sounded lovely.
I heard those very same Eatons at your place, Geoff. They sounded very good indeed! Did you use the controls much or left them flat permanently?
S.
walpurgis
06-02-2016, 19:28
I heard those very same Eatons at your place, Geoff. They sounded very good indeed! Did you use the controls much or left them flat permanently?
S.
Flat Shane.
Hoarding: here's some of the stuff I have stashed away upstairs, mostly for no good reason:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/Macca_photos_2009/hoard%20001.jpg (http://s903.photobucket.com/user/Macca_photos_2009/media/hoard%20001.jpg.html)
Achromat and capacitors now ordered. Had to go for a black Achromat even though I fancied an orange one. No Orange in stock, apparently. Now enjoying the release of endorphins.
Achromat and capacitors now ordered. Had to go for a black Achromat even though I fancied an orange one. No Orange in stock, apparently. Now enjoying the release of endorphins.
Is that a reissue;)
Firebottle
07-02-2016, 11:59
Hoarding: here's some of the stuff I have stashed away upstairs, mostly for no good reason.
Must get up there one day and see what I can filtch :eyebrows:
Smuggle that little valve jobbie too;)
I'm planning to give hi-fi systems to my nephews/nieces when they are old enough to want one. Give them a better start in hi-fi life than I had ;)
The odd thing is the way things are going they won't know what to do with the CD players but the record decks they will know exactly what they are for.
Nice idea :)
Anyway, daftee, have you bought your Achromat and Isonoes yet? I believe that Saturday was supposed to be 'the day', which has now been and gone! ;)
Yes, I'll be 'pestering' you until you open that dusty wallet of yours, and get the deed done, as for such a small outlay, I *know* that it will provide a very worth while improvement for your T/T!
Do you need some 'helpful links' to click on, in order to speed up the ordering process? :ner:
Marco.
I ordered caps and Achromat earlier today. See previous posts.
Isones can wait for the moment.
Missed that... You need dem Isonoes too, bruv! :trust:
Marco.
Must get up there one day and see what I can filtch :eyebrows:
Are you sure...? Not many who do live to tell the tale! :eek:
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 10:58
Hi Richard,
Unfortunately, I've been completely put off BOING, due to the chap on here (I forget who it was now) who bought some for his Techy, installed them, and whilst he initially said that he liked them, later discovered that he wasn't enjoying listening to music. Then he put his Isonoes back in, and all was well again...
Therefore, I'm afraid that the jury's still out on BOING, and I wouldn't risk a purchase on that basis. However, since you're advocating Arthur to send tonearms out for Macca to try, if he sends him a set of BOING, I'll bring my Isonoes along to his place and do a comparison.
If the BOING win, then I'll order a set - and Martin might, too! Sounds fair? :)
Marco.
F*** me this is a long thread when you start scanning through it to find a post
Just spoken to Arthur, who instead of being Grumpy did the wide-eyed innocent act. "But I already offer a free trial on my website and nobody uses it"
Brief research shows that the much promised "new" website is still not done.
BO!NG as far as I can see is not mentioned on the website at all
Including not being on the price list
BUT there is a section "Try it at home" http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/try_it_at_home.html
Never mind the lengthy waffle, as I understand it, if you contact Funk Firm and ask to trial BO!NG you can have a set for a month. I suggest you call his bluff and let me know how you get on.
He could try the patience of a saint, that man...
:cool:
Lol.... Ok, I'll do that when I get a chance :cool:
Presuming however, that one doesn't have to pay for them in advance?
Otherwise, it's a no-no. I don't do the '30-day trial, if not delighted, we'll refund you' thing. Essentially, it needs to be a loan. I only pay for things when I've decided I want them, not the other way round, as I like to be the one who's 'in control' ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 12:37
Lol.... Ok, I'll do that when I get a chance :cool:
Presuming however, that one doesn't have to pay for them in advance?
Otherwise, it's a no-no. I don't do the '30-day trial, if not delighted, we'll refund you' thing. Essentially, it needs to be a loan. I only pay for things when I've decided I want them, not the other way round, as I like to be the one who's 'in control' ;)
Marco.
Hmm
I don't know. I don't suppose Arthur does either. He would almost certainly bung a set in the post to you on trust because he knows you, but otherwise how do you get them back if some smart-arse just hangs onto them , or claims to post them back and then loses them.
It brings me back to an old theme of how I like to buy at a shop. An English amplifier manufacturer from the Nene Valley disagrees strongly, and views any distribution chain other than direct retail to be the devils spawn, and a sure sign of satanism in anyone advocating it, but I like a shop. Every January I get a daft bee in my bonnet for something to dabble at and then give up. This January it was play Saxophone (a long running theme actually)
I had bought my son a Saxophone about 6 years ago, and lessons, and he had lost it at the end of 6th form. Having confirmed it wasn't at his Mums, We traced it to his old school, where it was still on a shelf, (helped by the fact he had chosen a camouflage sax case - which was therefore unique).
I took it to Sax.Co.UK in Crowborough, where they were just superb. Far from trying to sell me one of their beautiful up to £8000 sax's they had row upon row of, they told me Tim's old banger was fine, sold me a beginner mouthpiece for £20 and serviced it (4 buttons replaced, one pad, and some keys adjusted). Cost - £32. They showed me how to put it together, how to fit a reed, told me to clean it regularly and generally "attended to me" for about an hour in total.
Never mind the saxophone or other bits, I'd have paid the money just to receive the attention.
If I want a posh Sax one day, I bet I could get it a few pounds cheaper on the web somewhere. But I will be buying it from the shop, and paying a bit more. You can't beat a shop - whether buying saxophones or turntables imho
:cool:
Shops have their positive points but retail premises inevitably ramp up the price. No reason why a direct seller can't support customers via the internet - indeed NVA is a good example in that respect. Also saves going back and forth to the shop if you have an issue.
Hmm
I don't know. I don't suppose Arthur does either. He would almost certainly bung a set in the post to you on trust because he knows you, but otherwise how do you get them back if some smart-arse just hangs onto them , or claims to post them back and then loses them.
Indeed, and that's why you have a loaner set, the cost of which is 'written off', in order for the product to 'do the rounds' with prospective buyers. Many small manufacturers here do that, and with good success. If you're impressed enough with the loan set, then you place an order and pay for a new one. Simples...
It's called 'speculate to accumulate', and besides, on a forum such as this (with a fairly tight-knit community), any 'shenanigans' would immediately be found out, and the person guilty, suitably dealt with! ;)
The reality is that any of the regulars here, who can be 'vouched for', would be safe to send a set of BOING to. The ball, as it were, is therefore in Arthur's court :)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 13:11
Shops have their positive points but retail premises inevitably ramp up the price. No reason why a direct seller can't support customers via the internet - indeed NVA is a good example in that respect. Also saves going back and forth to the shop if you have an issue.
How would you choose a new saxophone? Research to the ends of the universe, or go into a shop where you can blow all 6 that might interest you in a sound proof practice room for 2 hours?
I know how I like to buy a saxophone :cool:
No comment on my last post?
Marco.
How would you choose a new saxophone? Research to the ends of the universe, or go into a shop where you can blow all 6 that might interest you in a sound proof practice room for 2 hours?
I know how I like to buy a saxophone :cool:
But the saxophone is not dependant on your room and other components and an item of hi-fi equipment is. You don't need a home demo of a saxophone.
How much cheaper would that Achromat I just bought have been if I could buy direct from Funk instead of having to go through Analogue Seduction and give them a cut too? Bought mail order in any case: value added for their (say) £20 slice? = nil.
Yes, but I'm quite sure you could've obtained it direct from Arthur, without going through AS. There are appropriate channels for that, you know... ;)
Marco.
I shouldn't have to ask a favour just to avoid paying a middleman for doing nothing except put something in the post to me.
Should point out I have nothing against dealers in principle and in any case a manufacturer who sells direct is a dealer as well. And I don't mind paying extra for some consultancy, if it proves to be valuable, since that is value added and therefore a fair trade. It is paying extra for a stupid business model that adds nothing - as in the Achromat situation - that I dislike.
On that, we are in agreement :)
Still, it doesn't do any harm to use one's contacts ;)
Marco.
Oldpinkman
08-02-2016, 16:00
I shouldn't have to ask a favour just to avoid paying a middleman for doing nothing except put something in the post to me.
Should point out I have nothing against dealers in principle and in any case a manufacturer who sells direct is a dealer as well. And I don't mind paying extra for some consultancy, if it proves to be valuable, since that is value added and therefore a fair trade. It is paying extra for a stupid business model that adds nothing - as in the Achromat situation - that I dislike.
The problem is, you can't easily "stream" distribution. So you can't have one price for the person who wants to buy in the shops, and another for the direct sale. If an Achromat is £60 full retail, but you know you can buy direct for £40, the retailer will not stock or promote the product (or the rest of your range, if they can't get the "high click" accessories), because it is too easy to buy the product elsewhere cheaper. This now applies internationally. I was about to buy my AHB2 from France because their pricing was different from the UK pricing (like nearly £650 cheaper, no duty, VAT paid).
And so UK retail has to be a price which is universal to international retail. This gets complicated. We all know we can buy stuff cheaper in the USA, but by the time EU duty and VAT as well as insured carriage are added, the difference evaporates. And you lose local warranty and distributor backup
(This was a lot of the trouble for Mike New with warped platters - it is really hard to support that sort of product from the other side of the planet. You need a local distributor, who does more than just warehouse and package, but place adverts in the local HiFi press, arranges local language HiFi reviews, provides local product training and support , including warranties, service and repairs - and holds stock of replacements for warranty purposes. )
Again the AHB2 is a good example . $3000 in the USA £3000 in the UK. At todays rates that's say S3200 with insured shipping, £2200 plus 8% duty takes you to £2383 plus 20% VAT takes you to £2860. Nominally you have a US warranty, but in practice that wouldn't be valid for product sold out of territory. The US warranty is 5 years return to base. The UK warranty is 2 years return to base. The grey import warranty is very likely to be nothing at all.
OK - so an Achromat doesn't need a warranty, or advice, set-up and the like (although you wouldn't believe...) but a Safire, or an FX3 does, and you have to have a consistent approach with international distributors and domestic dealers.
Direct sales have their merits - low cost is the advantage. Service support is the challenge. I doubt Nene Valley sells a lot of product in China, or Indonesia, or Russia (maybe they sell in Russia given the missus can help). I have enough problems dealing with technical documentation and queries in France and I am fluent in French. Try offering support for every country, legal system, language, etc.
Different approaches. The full retail is better suited to "normal" products . Maybe there is scope to deal with (say) Technics modifications as a separate direct sale only line. I have suggested that to AK before. I think for the moment his core business is mainstream and international (UK sales are a very small part of total sales) and so Funk pricing is going to stay full retail.
And there is this illusion of retailers as "fat cats". Not a few are struggling and going broke. Retail overheads - rent , rates, staff, are very high - as are stock-holding costs. Those are the costs of offering a service, real product to touch and use and compare. If it's easy money, go off and do it.
No comment on my last post? [#606]
:popcorn: :popcorn:
;)
Marco.
So what you are saying is that by paying a dealer margin for my Achromat I am subsidising the cost of him supporting the purchaser of a more complex Funk product?
I am aware of that and that is what I object to. The retailer is going broke? Well that is his problem not mine. How will he react when I get made redundant and go round and tap him for 20 quid?
A better system would be to have the simple stuff sold direct, the complex stuff through the dealer with a margin for the dealer which reflects the cost of the value he adds. So the complex products may cost a little more but at least the punter receiving the extra service is the one paying for it.
I know, the dealers won't wear it because sale and forget accessories are the sweetest plum. But that will change eventually.
internationally. I was about to buy my AHB2 from France because their pricing was different from the UK pricing (like nearly £650 cheaper, no duty, VAT paid).
And so UK retail has to be a price which is universal to international retail. This gets complicated. We all know we can buy stuff cheaper in the USA, but by the time EU duty and VAT as well as insured carriage are added, the difference evaporates. And you lose local warranty and distributor backup
.
:) Read a study that examined Why Brits were flocking to France to Buy .
The prices were perceived as sooo much less that even the cost of transportation became irrelevant.
Plus I suppose, one got a nice Weekend Hol to boot.
Initial consumer complaints/anger re Usurious UK pricings were focused/directed at the the UK's Taxation levels.
Causing some re-election anxieties amongst career politcals
What wasn't apparent/widely known was that French taxations are Markedly higher.
So much for that myth.
Reality is /was that the UK's middle man distribution structure is both convoluted and unabashedly Greedy.
Every participant strives to Max out his profit margins.
A genuine problem when there are *several* grasping hands in the chain.
A nation of Shopkeeps some (in) famous gentleman once stated.
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