View Full Version : Could this be a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?
Guys,
I've taken a punt on this rather interesting looking tonearm cable, from a designer in Greece, which is described as
"Pure solid OCC silver (6N) shielded tonearm / phono cable - Litz geometry"
Some pics:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8472/tonearmcable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/tonearmcable.jpg/)
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/10/tonearmcable2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/tonearmcable2.jpg/)
Lots more info here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220967089629?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
The construction techniques and materials used look very interesting indeed, and I suspect that this cable will offer superb SPPV. Any views on this? It seems like exceptional value for £159!
For a bit of fun, I intend to compare it to a (superb) Furutech AG-12 tonearm cable, which I have here already: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/tone-arm-cables/46-furutech-ag-12-tone-arm-cable-4582237532913.html
...and which retails for £435, and see what happens... I'm curious to know if this cable from Greece can deliver the goods or not. Watch this space! ;)
Marco.
The chap who makes them, recognised my name, as he has visited AoS before, and so has since made the following suggestion (which I've accepted):
The cable you have chosen consists of two separate cables (double run). Each cable carries four solid conductors in a Litz braid geometry. Instead of this type of arrangement you may want to consider a single run (i.e. a cable with 4 conductors in a Litz braid which splits into 2 twisted pairs).
We work with lots of different designs and geometries and I believe that the single run does actually perform better than the double especially in unbalanced arrangements. The overall capacitance is lower, the 28AWG conductors are more than sufficient to carry the low level signal, while the Faraday Cage shielding (and ground) arrangement is slightly more efficient under the single run structure.
So in the future we will be replacing the DIN-RCA and RCA-RCA versions of the 428Phono with a single run (leaving the double run as optional upon request).
I just thought that you may want to consider this option since its price is actually lower than the cable you have chosen while it will perform even better. The inner cable structure and materials are exactly the same. At the outer level, on top of the shield we now use 3 layers for electrical and mechanical protection (Teflon insulation, PVC flexible jacket and Viablue braided sleeve).
Seems like good advice... Should be interesting, anyway. If they're good, it'll be another valid cable option for folks here looking to get the biggest bang for their buck! :cool:
Marco.
I think he's actually a Brit living in Greece (in beautiful Chalkidiki no less).
There is a very positive buzz about his cables in audiophile circles in this neck of the woods - he uses different materials from the Cardas/Mogami/Canare stables down to some really exotic silver ones; I've heard that craftsmanship is top notch as well and given the prices - this might be a true bargain. I am really looking forward to hear what you make of them Marco.
Nice one, John, and thanks for the info... I suspect you could be right. They just 'smelled good' to me, and appealed to my gut instincts! :)
Yannis (the chap who makes them) also seems to have considerable experience in working with various cable materials and construction methods, and is a real enthusiast, which for me, sent out all the right signals.
Marco.
Well at £160 I would say it is already doing pretty well on the value for money front as it states the conductors are solid silver (your Furutech ones are silver plated copper I think).
That's what I was thinking, Mark.. Also, bear in mind that the one he's making for me (a single run version, i.e. a cable with 4 conductors in a Litz braid which splits into 2 twisted pairs), is even cheaper - and apparently better! :)
Does this cable tick some 'right boxes' for you, as it does for me?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
03-04-2012, 17:47
Looks very interesting indeed :popcorn:
Regards D S D L
The construction sounds promising Marko - the silver wire running in over sized Teflon tubes idea is a well respected one and the whole thing is properly shielded (which it should be) - the connectors all look to be good and the overall thing certainly looks the business.
I suspect you will be pleased
(the only thing is it has a 90 degrees arm connector - will this work OK with your arm and plinth? - the pic of your current cable shows it with a straight DIN connector)
Yes, Mark - no problem with that, as I also tried an AG-12 with a right-angled connector, shown below, before getting the straight one:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2269/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/138/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg/)
I can use both types on my T/T. Glad you seem to like the Greek one. I have a good feeling about it, so the comparison should be interesting :)
Marco.
Cool, well I can't see any reason why it shouldn't work well - I think it will more depend on how you feel about solid silver compared to silver plated copper.
This looks like a great candidate for an upgrade to a SL1200. :thumbsup:
My thinking precisely, Jostein! Of course, these things are still T/T and system dependent, but if the cable performs in the way which I think it will, it's likely to work well on most T/Ts :)
Mark, I agree, although the other (rather clever) elements of its construction should also prove to be influential.
Marco.
Yeah, I agree, the construction choices sound intelligent
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2012, 20:03
just ordered one, its now up against one of these http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Nordost_Tyr_Tonearm_Cable_ndsttyrtacxx19
Lets see how battle commences.
Wow, Andrew - that'll be interesting to see what happens there!
Marco.
You've just spent £1000.00 on 1.2 metres of cable?
just ordered one, its now up against one of these http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Nordost_Tyr_Tonearm_Cable_ndsttyrtacxx19
Lets see how battle commences.
If it comes close to the Tyr's performance (at 1/10th of the price) then this would be one very, very special cable indeed.
You've just spent £1000.00 on 1.2 metres of cable?
The TYR is Andrew's usual cable, Mark (see his sig). He's bought the one I'm getting, as a comparison :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2012, 20:32
You've just spent £1000.00 on 1.2 metres of cable?
NOPE! Even if I did so what?
Ah, I see (you can't see people's sigs on Tapatalk - which is good IMO).
Lol... Probably is, where mine is concerned! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Even if I did so what?
:)
Don't go making me laugh whilst I'm trying to eat.
sq225917
03-04-2012, 20:57
Wow £1000 for a tonearm cable, how much was your cart and phonostage?
Wakefield Turntables
03-04-2012, 20:58
Cart £1.7K, Phonostage £1.5K (about to be upgraded for something better).
Well, most say that the tonearm cable is, by far, the most important one in the chain -the Tyr is probably one of the best in the market. Had the Heimdall and Frey, both fantastic, so I can only imagine how good the bigger brother must be.:)
But, gentlemen, enough of this polite conversation. Let the battle commence!
I really want to hear what you gents think of the "Greek" cable - especially with Andrew's matching with my very beloved Ortofon Cadenza Black!:cool:
Absolutely, but we also need to keep things in perspective...
I'm not expecting the "Greek" cable to be the best in the world; simply to offer high SPPV, which is why I'm comparing it to the Furutech, which at £435, is more of a 'mid-market' tonearm cable, although extremely capable with it.
If the £160 "Greek" cable can compete with that (never mind the TYR), then as far as I'm concerned, it'll be a result! :cool:
Marco.
Absolutely, but we also need to keep things in perspective...
I'm not expecting the "Greek" cable to be the best in the world; simply to offer high SPPV, which is why I'm comparing it to the Furutech, which at £435, is more of a 'mid-market' tonearm cable, although extremely capable with it.
If the £160 "Greek" cable can compete with that (never mind the TYR), then as far as I'm concerned, it'll be a result! :cool:
Marco.
Or, for me, an additional realization that some cables out there are grossly overpriced...:scratch:
Indeed, John. I think that's undoubtedly a fact.
Personally, I wouldn't spend £1000 (or more) on a tonearm cable *unless* it was RADICALLY superior to the best of the breed at around £200, but of course each to his or her own :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
04-04-2012, 08:53
That's what I was thinking, Mark.. Also, bear in mind that the one he's making for me (a single run version, i.e. a cable with 4 conductors in a Litz braid which splits into 2 twisted pairs), is even cheaper - and apparently better! :)
Can this option you chose be used for Moving Magnet cartridges ?
btw: wtf is that SP10 thing in you Advatar buddy :lol:
It's my new 'SP12'! Ja loike it? :lol:
No reason why the cable won't also do the same trick with MMs...
Marco.
northwest
04-04-2012, 10:36
This is the cable I was talking about in my thread here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15815
In the end I decided to make a custom RCA manifold for the tonearm cables so I could swap interconnects as and when.
The final design that the manufacturer is suggesting, for optimal sonic performance and visual appeal, looks like this (with 'Viablue' sleeve this time extended only part way along the cable):
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5879/dsc05488f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/dsc05488f.jpg/)
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9449/dsc05493b.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/dsc05493b.jpg/)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6357/dsc05496e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/dsc05496e.jpg/)
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/6338/dsc05505e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/dsc05505e.jpg/)
Note the dual-ground lead, for grounding the pre-amp and turntable chassis, if necessary, thus offering the flexibility to eliminate earth loops - especially useful when one uses an MC step-up transformer, prone to hum. I think that the cable looks seriously good, and I suspect will also sound superb! :cool:
Marco.
I agree that the dual ground is a good idea :).
I tell you what though, he takes a nice picture - it sure looks 'fancy'!
This looks mighty interesting, Marco. I'm intrigued and would like to compare it with my Dynavector's silver arm cable. I'm not entirely sure about the right-angle entry but I think it will depend on the plug's resting angle, if you see what I mean.
Those superb phono plugs look identical to the ones used by Tellurium Q.
Wakefield Turntables
04-04-2012, 18:12
Just recieved an email and got loads of techy info :eyebrows: I've decided to get mine terminated with Eichmann silver bullets :eyebrows: I've not chosen my geometry yet and I also need to decided which connector to use with the V, i'll keep you updated. I've also decided to go for top of the range cable, total spend so far £279 which is still an absolute steel. It should fit in very well with all my other cabling which is solid silver, including balanced interconnects, power cabling, and intrinsic wiring of the V :eyebrows::cool:
I've been tempted by this guys stuff. I may purchase depending on reports.
I suspect that this :cool: is the UK equivalent of the popcorn icon. Watching with interest - hoping that I won't have too many pints downrange by the time the review gets printed.
Well, Jannis has offered to let me compare the cable I've ordered against the 'top-of-the-range' one Andrew's getting (shown here: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono_litz.html), to see of I can hear any difference, and if I prefer the latter, then to simply keep it, send the other one back, and pay the difference...
You can't say any fairer than that! Top bloke. So that's what I'm going to do :)
Meanwhile, I've decided to go for a straight DIN connector, in order to allow me to use the cable on other people's T/Ts, should they wish to try it, which can't accommodate a right-angled connector. Therefore, this is now the final design:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6/dsc05511y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/dsc05511y.jpg/)
:cool:
Marco.
Meanwhile, I've decided to go for a straight DIN connector, in order to allow me to use the cable on other people's T/Ts, should they wish to try it, which can't accommodate a right-angled connector.
Perfect for me! You know I'm going to ask you to bring it over on our next session :)
Wakefield Turntables
05-04-2012, 17:09
Perfect for me! You know I'm going to ask you to bring it over on our next session :)
I'm having nightmares trying to figure what you two end up doing during a "session" especially with a straight ended connection like that one in the photo's !! :D
It all depends on whether Marco wears that favourite frock of mine...
That dual earth idea is used on my OEM supplied SME cable, works well. I've contacted the seller as well..:)
Wakefield Turntables
08-04-2012, 17:10
Marco,
Have you ordered any "goodies" on your cable? Like Eichmanns or Furutech Dins?
Andy
Hi Andrew,
Nope - the first cable I'm getting will be 'standard', as shown in the pics I've posted.
The second cable Yannis is sending me will have all the 'fancy bits' on it. I'll then simply choose which one to keep and return the other :)
I should have the first cable by the end of the week :fingers:
Marco.
Mark Grant
10-04-2012, 09:25
Therefore, this is now the final design:
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6/dsc05511y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/dsc05511y.jpg/)
Marco.
There's never a final design, always another tweak :)
Have you considered asking for a cable with the WBT 0110 AG silver contacts fitted to the silver cable.
Not sure what the lok connectors are made from.
Hi Mark,
I meant the final design for the first 'standard' cable. The 'super-duper' one Yannis is sending me will have Eichmann Silver Bullet plugs (amongst other things) fitted.
Basically, I'm going to be comparing the two cables and assessing whether the 'super-duper' cable is, sonically, worth the extra outlay. My review of both cables will then act as a reference for others to use if deciding to invest in either of the cables :)
Marco.
There's never a final design, always another tweak :)
Have you considered asking for a cable with the WBT 0110 AG silver contacts fitted to the silver cable.
Not sure what the lok connectors are made from.
Lok connectors are from their performance series - rhodium over silver plated body. Very good quality and a substantial saving from the WBT's.:)
sq225917
10-04-2012, 16:22
The center pin on the LOK's should be all silver if you got the top spec ones, my ones from HGA were.
Wakefield Turntables
10-04-2012, 21:14
Deposit paid, now just waiting for the thing to turn up :D
Hi Andrew,
Mine's on its way, too! Yannis informed me that the silver barrels on the LOK plugs were magnetic, and thus sonically detrimental, so he's used the non-ferrous black ones instead:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3554/dsc05590z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/dsc05590z.jpg/)
It's nice dealing with someone who can offer this level of attention to detail and design flexibility, and precisely why I always prefer buying bespoke products from small independent, enthusiast-focussed, manufacturers :)
If the cable sounds as good as it looks - we'll both have won a watch!! :exactly:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2012, 06:52
Hi Andrew,
Mine's on its way, too! Yannis informed me that the silver barrels on the LOK plugs were magnetic, and thus sonically detrimental, so he's used the non-ferrous black ones instead:
It's nice dealing with someone who can offer this level of design flexibility, and precisely why I always prefer buying bespoke products from small independent, enthusiast-focussed, manufacturers :)
If the cable sounds as good as it looks - we'll both have won a watch!! :exactly:
Marco.
+1 with all those comments, Yannis has been excellent. He has answered every email thrown at him in double quick time. I noted that you went for the non-ferrous RCA's. Why do you think I went with Eichmann silver bullets, they hold into the the RCA out slot supertight and are non magnetic;) Lets hope the cable cuts the sonic mustard. I have already spoken to Yannis about some new balanced interconnects of a similar design and he has offered me several cables to trial if I like what I hear. Now you cant get better than that. :D
Why do you think I went with Eichmann silver bullets, they hold into the the RCA out slot supertight and are non magnetic...
Indeed - and I may end up doing the same.
However, I'd like the opportunity to compare the Eichmanns to the LOKs, and assess whether the higher cost of the former is worth it, which is why he's allowing me to listen to cables fitted with both, before making my decision...
Lets hope the cable cuts the sonic mustard.
Fear not, the Marco-boy's gut instincts in these matters are rarely wrong ;)
Marco.
This got me going, the cable looks gorgeous. I will wait for your report Marco and after that I will decide.
When i will order, I will also take the balanced interconnects, so I will wait for Andrew report on those.
I need to start saving for all the things I've planned to upgrade/buy in 2012 :eek:
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2012, 16:18
This got me going, the cable looks gorgeous. I will wait for your report Marco and after that I will decide.
When i will order, I will also take the balanced interconnects, so I will wait for Andrew report on those.
I need to start saving for all the things I've planned to upgrade/buy in 2012 :eek:
Maks,
You already have a pretty well specced out 1210. I notice you have a V like me. what cartridge are you using?? We have similar 1210's also in that you have a lot of the Mike New stuff. You might want to consider buying the MN base plate and tonearm board (which is what I have my V installed into). Apart some minor mods to the 1210's PCB and Paul Hynes internal regs there really isnt much more to do with a 1210 apart from experimenting with platter mats, carts, and power leads :eek:
Andy
Maks,
You already have a pretty well spec'd out 1210. I notice you have a V like me. what cartridge are you using?? We have similar 1210's also in that you have a lot of the Mike New stuff. You might want to consider buying the MN base plate and tonearm board (which is what I have my V installed into). Apart some minor mods to the 1210's PCB and Paul Hynes internal regs there really isnt much more to do with a 1210 apart from experimenting with platter mats, carts, and power leads :eek:
Andy
Hi Andrew,
I'm using the Ortofon 2M Black with my V arm and couldn't be happier. Before I will get into MC territory, I will first upgrade some of the other elements of my system (phono, amp, speakers, etc). But this will come over the years :)
Regarding armboard, I have a really thick aluminum one (H&S Audio, coated with anti-vibration NEXTEL) so if I will ever change it it will be the ebony one. For baseplate I really don't see a need in my situation and I don't like the look of elevated platter. I have just received the silver DC cable with furutech xlr plug (thanks Marco) and I will order PH regulator modules. Later I plan to buy this tonearm cable as I still have the stock SME one :( and stereo interconnects. This will be it for 2012 (or not :lol:)
Wakefield Turntables
17-04-2012, 18:50
Just a quick update. The cable should be finished on Thursday we are now just waiting dor the DIN connector. So not long now.
Hi Andrew,
I'm using the Ortofon 2M Black with my V arm and couldn't be happier. Before I will get into MC territory, I will first upgrade some of the other elements of my system (phono, amp, speakers, etc). But this will come over the years :)
Regarding armboard, I have a really thick aluminum one (H&S Audio, coated with anti-vibration NEXTEL) so if I will ever change it it will be the ebony one. For baseplate I really don't see a need in my situation and I don't like the look of elevated platter. I have just received the silver DC cable with furutech xlr plug (thanks Marco) and I will order PH regulator modules. Later I plan to buy this tonearm cable as I still have the stock SME one :( and stereo interconnects. This will be it for 2012 (or not :lol:)
Nice :) I must admit that I've not done anything to dampen the underside of the SME, perhaps this could be the next round of tweeks. I've just finished modifying the plinth, I'll be posting some pics soon.
Mark Grant
18-04-2012, 10:47
The center pin on the LOK's should be all silver if you got the top spec ones, my ones from HGA were.
Thanks Simon,
That's more information than is on the manufactures website.
Mark Grant
18-04-2012, 11:08
Lok connectors are from their performance series - rhodium over silver plated body. Very good quality and a substantial saving from the WBT's.:)
I can see the Lok cost less than the WBT and that they are good quality, they are not the same build though.:)
The WBT I suggest has a nylon/plasticky lightweight body with pure silver ground and signal contacts and appears to work very well with most cables.
The only reason more manufacturers dont use them is the price compared to lower cost connectors.
Looking on homegrown audio site it does not really say what they are made from, most likely brass like most reasonably priced connectors and there is nothing wrong with that.
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-silver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-rhodium%3Asilver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
It would be interesting to try the same cable with various types of connector as there should be differences.
The price of these cables looks very reasonable if it is 6 nines purity.
Reading some of the posts Marco has changed to the non magnetic barrel black body connector so that's a step in the right direction which happened after I mentioned the WBT's :)
Well, chaps, the cable has arrived, and I can confirm that it looks just as good 'in the flesh', as it does in the pictures! :stalks: :stalks: :yay:
I've just plugged it in instead of the Furutech cable I've been using, and all I can say at the moment is that initial impressions are *very* good indeed....
However, I intend to let the cable burn-in, until at least the weekend, before any meaningful comparisons will be made between it and the Furutech, so stay tuned, folks, for an update followed by a full review! :cool:
Marco.
P.S Mark, you're probably correct, which is why I'll likely bite the bullet and get the second cable Yannis is sending me (for comparison purposes) fitted with some silver WBTs or Eichmann's (actually, I fancy giving the latter a go for a change), along with a Furutech DIN plug :)
I can see the Lok cost less than the WBT and that they are good quality, they are not the same build though.:)
The WBT I suggest has a nylon/plasticky lightweight body with pure silver ground and signal contacts and appears to work very well with most cables.
The only reason more manufacturers dont use them is the price compared to lower cost connectors.
Looking on homegrown audio site it does not really say what they are made from, most likely brass like most reasonably priced connectors and there is nothing wrong with that.
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-silver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-rhodium%3Asilver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
It would be interesting to try the same cable with various types of connector as there should be differences.
The price of these cables looks very reasonable if it is 6 nines purity.
Reading some of the posts Marco has changed to the non magnetic barrel black body connector so that's a step in the right direction which happened after I mentioned the WBT's :)
I think he uses these connectors, but could be wrong:
http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-rhodium%3Asilver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
They are good quality but I wouldn't really put them on an equal footing with
WBT or Eichmann. Considerably cheaper though.....:cool:
I've just finished modifying the plinth, I'll be posting some pics soon.
Can't wait to see that one, sounds interesting :)
Hi John,
Yup, those appear to be the plugs which are fitted to the cable I've just received :)
Marco.
Well, chaps, the cable has arrived, and I can confirm that it looks just as good in the flesh, as it does in the pictures! :stalks: :stalks: :yay:
I've just plugged it in instead of the Furutech cable I've been using, and all I can say at the moment is that initial impressions are *very* good indeed....
However, I intend to let the cable burn-in, until at least the weekend, before any meaningful comparisons will be made between it and the Furutech, so stay tuned, folks! :cool:
Marco.
P.S Mark, you're probably correct, which is why I'll likely bite the bullet and get the second cable Yannis is sending me (for comparison purposes) fitted with some silver WBTs or Eichmann's (actually, I fancy giving the latter a go for a change), along with a Furutech DIN plug :)
:cool:
Will be checking this space for update :)
Btw Marco, are you having the £400+ furutech tonearm cable atm? :stalks:
Sorry, dude, what do you mean by "having"? :scratch:
It's actually kindly on loan from David (Mains Cables R US), and acting as the benchmark (the most I'd ever pay for a tonearm cable) from which to judge the cable Jannis has supplied.
If, after listening to the best that Yannis can do, it's still not as good as the Furutech, then I'll simply sell the former to someone else, and buy the latter :)
However... Based on what I'm hearing so far, I strongly suspect that the 'Greek cable' will be staying, or more likely, replaced by one fitted with even better plugs! ;)
Marco.
Sorry, dude, what do you mean by "having"? :scratch:
It's actually kindly on loan from David (Mains Cables R US), and acting as the benchmark (the most I'd ever pay for a tonearm cable) from which to judge the cable Jannis has supplied.
If, after listening to the best that Yannis can do, it's still not as good as the Furutech, then I'll simply sell the former to someone else, and buy the latter :)
However... Based on what I'm hearing so far, I strongly suspect that the 'Greek cable' will be staying, or more likely, replaced by one fitted with even better plugs! ;)
Marco.
Ah, I should say "using", sorry for my bad eng. expressions.
That will be indeed an interesting comparison, taking into account that furutech costs so much more. If the Jannis cable can deliver at least "~70%" performance of Furutech, I am set on that one then :)
Yup... That was the whole point of doing the comparison, dude: to find a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable. On AoS, SPPV rules! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
18-04-2012, 19:01
Can't wait to see that one, sounds interesting :)
See here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=317454#post317454
for the latest results of the rebuild.
Yannis mailed me today and I should have a couple of pictures of the newly made cable tomorrow! I'll post these up when I get them. Not long now. #
Wakefield Turntables
19-04-2012, 18:27
Just a quick update, I have attached a pic of the tonearm cable that Yannis is sending me. It still only part made, but, there will be a Furutech din connector and some heatwrap going around the various RCA's. I've also managed to get aluminium RCA bodies instead of Eichmann's standard plastic versions. Hopefully better EMI / RFI protection for the end of the silver RCA!!
I use the aluminium bodied Eichmann plugs and they are nice; I don't think they give any greater shielding though, the screw on cover isn't connected to ground at all.
Heat shrink over the body and cable is a good idea though as the strain relief isn't particularly well done on the Eichmanns
Wakefield Turntables
19-04-2012, 22:09
Mark.
You make some interesting comments, I was thinking pretty much the same myself with regards removing strain of the RCA. Would you get the Screw connected to ground? If so, why??
Well, for the cover to be really part of the shield it should be connected to ground - but as it only covers about 5mm of unshielded cable then it won't really make any difference - the point of the shield is to stop the cable, as a whole, from acting like an aerial. It is extremely unlikely that such a small amount of unshielded cable will pick up any RFI. There isn't really any advantage to the aluminium barrels on the Eichmann's, other than looking nicer than the plastic ones (which they do).
As far as strain relief, I would use heat shrink to make the cable the right diameter for the aperture in the barrel of the RCA and then use a bit over the barrel and the cable to take any potential strain off the solder joint. Alternatively, if you never intend to remove the plugs, you could fill the internal void with hot-glue (which works well as long as you never want to get at the solder joint again).
Guys,
I've been listening now to the initial cable that Yannis has supplied, which is known as the '428 phono', shown in previous pictures, and have to say that I'm very impressed indeed!
I've allowed it a few days to burn in, during which time I've listened to a multitude of music, of varying genres, and have been comparing it to the (superb) Furutech AG-12 I'm currently using as a benchmark, priced at £435:
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/2269/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg/)
The object of this exercise was to see if the similarly (solid-silver wired) 428 Phono, priced at a mere £159, could compete with the Furutech, and get close to it, sonically, thereby proving itself as a 'giant-killer' Well, I can report that it's doing rather well so far!
Comparing the 428 Phono to the AG-12, reveals the usual sonic qualities of an excellent solid-silver tonearm cable, in that detail retrieval and high-frequency extension are in the top rank, and as such bathe music in a beautiful and realistic crystalline clarity, scything through the murkiest of recordings with considerable aplomb, and laying bare for inspection the subtlest of nuances, whilst the best audiophile recordings are reproduced in all their glory, tangibly and palpably, creating in the process a credible facsimile of the sound of real voices and instruments.
What the 428 Phono does in excess of that, however, making it rather special, considering its price, is in increasing the intelligibility of the musical structure, and what one would call 'lyricism', in order that one can more easily discern the timing and rhythmic patterns of music and phrasing in voices, which are crucial in order to portray recorded music convincingly. It does this also by producing a beautifully rich and textured midrange, which in particular caresses female vocals with an endearing subtlety and delicacy, all adding to the illusion that one is listening to a live, and not recorded, musical performance.
The AG-12, on the other hand, is a little more clinical in its style of musical delivery, majoring on creating a sense of air and space and a wide soundstage, together with having a greater ability to open up dense recordings, by imparting a crispness and 'freshness' onto the music programme. However, it does this in way which creates a somewhat more 'hi-fi' style of sonic presentation, and as such, lacks the overall musicality, micro-detail insight, and natural tonality of the 428 Phono.
Don't get me wrong, for most people, the AG-12 would be near-perfect, but Yannis has, to my ears, come up with a clever cable construction that does as least damage as possible to the precious analogue audio signal - and to offer it at this price is a near miracle! My suspicion also is that the inherent sonic qualities and musical presentation of the 428 Phono are superior to that of the AG-12, with the current slight deficiencies of the 428 Phono, in a hi-fi sense, likely to be addressed when better quality plugs are fitted. In that respect, I have therefore ordered a 428 Phono to be fitted with Eichmann silver bullet RCAs and the rather special Furutech CF-DIN(R):
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6589/furutechdin.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/furutechdin.jpg/)
I'm hopeful that this will level the playing field and serve to highlight the enviable sonic qualities of this rather special hand-made tonearm cable from Greece, whilst still keeping its price competitive and well within that of the AG-12. Furthermore, I have requested from Yannis, a 423.5 Phono-Litz cable, which is a more upmarket version of the 428 Phono. Direct comparisons will then be made between the various cable and connector permutations, with a view to ascertaining which gives the biggest bang for one's buck...
I should have everything necessary within 10 working days, so look out, folks, for a full review. I can promise it will make interesting reading! However, even at this stage I can confidently confirm that for those of you looking simply for a top-notch tonearm cable, at a very competitive price, the 428 Phono in its current guise (fitted with non-magnetic LOK RCAs) is in my experience, sonically, without peers at this price. Therefore, I can say with some conviction, buy with confidence :cool:
Lastly, just a quick word about the superb service Yannis offers to his customers. It is exemplary beyond question. Emails are answered promptly, with all questions therein dealt with in supreme detail, and he always goes the extra mile to provide the best solution for your needs and/or satisfy your individual requirements, as such it is an absolute pleasure dealing with him. If only all sellers on the 'Net were like this! To conclude, another loving close-up of the 428 Phono:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3554/dsc05590z.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/dsc05590z.jpg/)
Quite simply, music is as beautiful to listen to through it, as the cable is to look at! For more details or to make a purchase, contact Yannis at:
info@back-promo.co.uk
Marco.
Spectral Morn
22-04-2012, 22:58
Very interesting Marco
Regards D S D L
sq225917
23-04-2012, 07:01
He makes a nice looking cable that's for sure. Keep the reviews coming Marco.
MikeMusic
23-04-2012, 07:04
Thanks, keep talking Marco
I assume my original cable for the Aro would be easily out distanced by this and might be tempted
The Grand Wazoo
23-04-2012, 07:13
Doesn't look flexible enough for decks with boingy construction - or am I wrong?
It's pretty flexible, Chris, so it should be ok :)
Mike, I can't remember what kind of cable was supplied with the Aro... It should be better, but sometimes Naim cables are sonically synergistic with the components they're being used with.
If what's used is as tatty as what Linn often supplied with their tonearms, then I guess it would be a significant upgrade :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-04-2012, 08:47
Thanks Marco
My muddled mind should have said........
There's the cable in the Aro, Naim supplied I assume, Cart to plug
Then there's the other one from the armboard to the BNCs. Now that could well be a 1p/million Linn supply.... with room for improvement
Could you take a pic of what's there, Mike? It'd be interesting to know for reference :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-04-2012, 09:36
Will do. I'm looking for my camera so this is a spur to find it.
LP12 in pieces trying to get Simon's Hercules working too
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2012, 12:14
Nice review, still waiting for mine. :(
Churz, dude. T'was just a few scribbles... The delay on yours will be because Yannis is waiting for the 'fancy bits' to arrive :)
I'm surprised that you didn't go for the Furutech DIN, with the carbon-fibre shell insert. The reason I went for it, is because the IEC plugs on my power leads adopt the same principle, and I know how effective it is at controlling resonance - you can clearly hear the sonic benefits!
I would've gone for the matching RCAs, too, but for some reason the contact pins/conductors are only made from copper, not solid silver, which is why I chose the Eichmanns instead at that end :cool:
Marco.
I'm surprised that you didn't go for the Furutech DIN, with the carbon-fibre shell insert. The reason I went for it, is because the IEC plugs on my power leads adopt the same principle, and I know how effective it is at controlling resonance - you can clearly hear the sonic benefits!
To be honest, I struggle with this. I have worked quite a lot with CF and it has a high stiffness to mass ratio - but it isn't inherently better at dealing with resonances than other materials (so much depends on the frequency and amplitude of the resonance one is seeking to modulate) - it is well damped, but so are other materials. In addition, I can't help but wonder how much mechanical resonance exists in a plug, or how standard plug bodies are inadequate in this regard. Note, I am not in any way denying that CF has useful qualities (I use it myself), but in this case I can't help but feel that it's purpose is to bring a bit of 'hi-tech bling' rather than any actual mechanical benefits (it does look pretty though). A plug is already pretty stiff and low mass and if I really wanted to stiffen it further I wouldn't add an insert of CF. I'm not saying this plugs don't sound better (perhaps they do), but I think this is more likely to be because of the metals used to conduct the signal, the plating used and the mechanical fit of the conducting pasts - not because they have a small tube of CF inserted into the outer shell (which adds little to the stiffness or damping of the actual conducting elements and is really no more than just a decorative shroud.
Sure, Mark.
Rest assured, however, I haven't chosen that DIN plug because it looks 'sexy' or because of any "hi-tech bling" (people should know by now I don't work that way), but simply as a result of my extensive experience of using Furutech's IEC plugs, with the same construction.
When I tested those against numerous other types of IECs, they came out on top - and by some margin. I'm therefore hopeful that the DIN plugs will be just as good, and I'll be able to test for this, with Jannis sending me the same tonearm cable, but fitted with different plugs.
Therefore if the Furutech-equipped cable sounds better, and the DIN plug is the only variable, then it should be safe to assume that it is the cause of any sonic superiority. Anyway, all will be revealed in due course! :)
Marco.
Yes, but even if you do decide it sounds better, I doubt the CF insert in the cover has anything to do with it ;). Cardas do nice DIN arm plugs.
Aren't you also changing the RCA plugs at the same time? If that is the case, how do you know that any benefits aren't down to the RCA's. I've recently auditioned a number of RCA's (on the same cables) and they certainly make a difference (I personally like the Eichmann's - despite their lack of CF cladding).
Yes, but even if you do decide it sounds better, I doubt the CF insert in the cover has anything to do with it...
Lol... Well, my view in that instance would be 'who cares'? If it's better, it's better!
When I recently compared Furutech's range of IEC plugs (on the same mains lead, used in the same system), before settling on the carbon-fibre shell ones, the latter were notably better - and the shell type was the ONLY variable, so go figure ;)
The best sounding IEC plug (by a country mile, in my system):
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2003/furutechfi5020b2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/furutechfi5020b2.jpg/)
Will this little chap be just as good on my new tonearm cable:
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6589/furutechdin.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/furutechdin.jpg/)
Let's wait and see! ;)
Marco.
By a country mile...
Umm....OK
Well, in terms of overall clarity, definition and detail retrieval, yes!
I'll bring both identical tonearm cables round, if you want, when they're ready, one fitted with a 'normal' DIN plug, and one fitted with the Furutech (both will have silver Eichmann RCAs), and you can judge the results for yourself on your turntable, in your system, provided you're open-minded enough to listen without prejudice! ;)
Marco.
It's just a fact that you can't beat a bit of Greek action...
Just noticed your edit, daftee...
Aren't you also changing the RCA plugs at the same time? If that is the case, how do you know that any benefits aren't down to the RCA's.
Read my previous reply, Mark. The ONLY cable component variable in the test I'm offering will be the DIN plug. Are you up for a listen? :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2012, 17:19
Churz, dude. T'was just a few scribbles... The delay on yours will be because Yannis is waiting for the 'fancy bits' to arrive :)
I'm surprised that you didn't go for the Furutech DIN, with the carbon-fibre shell insert. The reason I went for it, is because the IEC plugs on my power leads adopt the same principle, and I know how effective it is at controlling resonance - you can clearly hear the sonic benefits!
I would've gone for the matching RCAs, too, but for some reason the contact pins/conductors are only made from copper, not solid silver, which is why I chose the Eichmanns instead at that end :cool:
Marco.
I did go with the Furutech DIN, the 90 degree version for the V.
It's the same DIN plug that's on the Furutech tonearm cable here (same as I'm using now), is it not:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2269/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/ag12tonearmcablem1.jpg/)
That doesn't have the carbon-fibre insert-type shell... Or is it a different one you've ordered? :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-04-2012, 18:25
Nope i went for the carbon fibre bling bling version!
Ha - coolio... Aye, you can't beat a bit of bling-bling! ;)
Marco.
I've been reading this thread with interest and this cable does sound interesting. Seeing as my SL is fitted with a SME Series III, which plugs would you advise going for on the arm side Marco?
If I remember correctly, the SME III is terminated with phono sockets at the base?
Yeah, is think it is too. I realise this is going to sound harsh, but I would replace the III - and the new arm is unlikely to have RCA's.
sq225917
24-04-2012, 07:09
Only replace the arm if you are thinking of getting a new cart as well, as you are unlikely to find such a lightweight arm these days unless you get a Morch.
Guys,
What you don't know is that Dave loves his arm and cart combo, so has no intention of changing it yet. His Goldring G900IGC is very high-compliance, and so suits the SME III, to a tee. Although it's not necessarily the best arm in the world, there's a lot to be said for synergy! :)
Dave, if your arm is terminated with phono sockets, then simply ask Jannis to fit RCAs at both ends of the tonearm cable, instead of a DIN, at one end. I'm sure he could do that, no problem. If, however, it's a DIN, then it depends on how much you want to spend.
TBH, the supplied one, shown here: http://www.partsconnexion.com/1877PH-73647.html is excellent, and only daftees like Andrew and me, who must have that last few percent of performance, would go for a Furutech.
If you want something in between the two then, like Mark says, the Cardas one is very good: http://www.partsconnexion.com/cardas-53481.html
Nice and lightweight, too :cool:
Marco.
Yup, the Series III does sport phono sockets. Unfortunately there is not enough room to house full sized phono plugs in the void underneath the arm.
As Marco has mentioned, the combination of the S3, Goldring and Techie sounds far better than the sum of its parts. There is magic going on here and I am loath to mess with it just now simply because I would need to spend a lot of money on an arm/cart combination of sufficient quality to better it, and this is money I don't have. In isolation I know it might seem that buying a half decent tonearm cable for the Series III is false economy, but trust me it isn't in this situation. If it offers the kind of improvements being discussed on this thread then I expect the results to be stunning ;)
Well, there's a lot to be said for using a cartridge with the correct compliance for the arm mass, that's for sure :): If you want to keep the III, and space is an issue, then you can get RCA's that exit at a ninety degree angle.
I think that is the way to go Mark, it is just a matter of finding a quality pair that will do the cable justice :)
Hmm..I've never seen any 'posh' ninety degree plugs; however, if one went without the outer cover, and with a good deal of care, it would be possible to solder Eichmann's on at such an angle (the plastic screw on shell would have to be cut down, a groove cut for the cable exit and the lot filled with glue - for strain relief. A lot of messing about but it could be done).
Dave, I'm sure that Yannis could fashion something appropriate for you. Why not pop him an email and ask? :)
Marco.
I can do that Marco although it will have to wait for a little while now as I have got to spend some cash to get a replacement bass driver for one of my DM2's :(
No worries... I still think it's more likely to be a problem with your amp, rather than the speakers. Have you tried the speakers with a different amp, in order to eliminate that possibility?
Marco.
No worries... I still think it's more likely to be a problem with your amp, rather than the speakers. Have you tried the speakers with a different amp, in order to eliminate that possibility?
Marco.
I don't have another amp to try them with as I've had to sell most of my spare kit due to financial issues :rolleyes: Mark (Reid) has offered to take a look at it once I've sourced duplicates of the cap kit component listings from Ray over in the States. I'll probably buy a cheap n cheerful amp from ebay to keep me ticking over 'til the Hafler comes back home and then sell it on again ;)
No worries. I'd do that ASAP, as you might find that with a different amp, the problem disappears! ;)
Marco.
I was considering buying one of those cracking little T Amps but knowing my luck I'd kill the Coles tweeters due to clipping... :lol:
Joking aside, I think that one of those T-amps would be just the ticket! :)
Marco.
Guys - meanwhile, I'm having a custom tonearm cable created for me by Tellurium Q from their Black Phono cable (the product which is not listed but which I am using between my step-up transformer and phono preamp). I will have it for evaluation shortly.
I think Marco and I will need to put it up against the Yannis, especially as the TQ cable is a very reasonable £285 plus the cost of a DIN plug which they are fitting. This could be a battle extraordinaire :)
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 12:03
Let me be the first for a ticket !
Yep - it's been a while, Mike. I'll let you know when we've set a date.
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 12:24
I can bring some LPs in case you don't have enough !
:-)
hifi_dave
25-04-2012, 12:53
The TQ arm cable is available in two versions - Black at £285 and Blue at £180, both available from stock.
At present, the cable is only available phono - phono for turntables equipped with phono sockets, which doesn't apply to Mike's Aro.
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 13:00
The TQ arm cable is available in two versions - Black at £285 and Blue at £180, both available from stock.
At present, the cable is only available phono - phono for turntables equipped with phono sockets, which doesn't apply to Mike's Aro.
Dave
Glad you spoke
How are my cables best described ?
The Aro cable I assume is an "arm cable" which plugs into an odd, much smaller than DIN socket, around 3-4mm diameter
I think that then goes out, direct to the BNC connections I plug into my Amp.
So that would be a "Captive Deck Lead" ?
hifi_dave
25-04-2012, 13:23
A cable from the arm is an arm cable.
Some, like the Aro are fixed into the arm and cannot (easily) be changed.
Others have a plug/socket arrangement ( similar to DIN ) at the base of the arm which enables cables, with that type of plug, to be changed.
Some have a short run of cable from the arm, often fixed, which is terminated on phono sockets for fixing to a plinth or turntable base. The phono cable which pliugs into these phono sockets can be changed/swapped easily. That is the type of cable TQ manufacture - phono to phono.
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 13:36
A cable from the arm is an arm cable.
Some, like the Aro are fixed into the arm and cannot (easily) be changed.
Others have a plug/socket arrangement ( similar to DIN ) at the base of the arm which enables cables, with that type of plug, to be changed.
Some have a short run of cable from the arm, often fixed, which is terminated on phono sockets for fixing to a plinth or turntable base. The phono cable which pliugs into these phono sockets can be changed/swapped easily. That is the type of cable TQ manufacture - phono to phono.
Thanks Dave
Any idea what the socket my Aro cable plugs into is called ?
hifi_dave
25-04-2012, 14:10
If your cable plugs into the arm base, it's called a tone arm plug, I guess.
In your case, to use the TQ cable, you would need to terminate the Aro cable onto two phono sockets, probably dangling out the back of the Linn. Then you would have extra terminations in the way of the signal.
sq225917
25-04-2012, 14:19
The plug on the end of the Aro internal arm wire used to be made by Racal, and after that it was a Marconi part and then the design fell into the hands of yet another company, military communication equipment again. But I'm unsure who makes them now though they are still available in small numbers.
Might be worthwhile asking Naim who supplied them last.
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 14:41
If your cable plugs into the arm base, it's called a tone arm plug, I guess.
In your case, to use the TQ cable, you would need to terminate the Aro cable onto two phono sockets, probably dangling out the back of the Linn. Then you would have extra terminations in the way of the signal.
Thanks
Hmm. Sounds doable but messy and less than perfect
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 14:44
The plug on the end of the Aro internal arm wire used to be made by Racal, and after that it was a Marconi part and then the design fell into the hands of yet another company, military communication equipment again. But I'm unsure who makes them now though they are still available in small numbers.
Might be worthwhile asking Naim who supplied them last.
Thanks
Bad news - they are rarities and hardly anyone will want to connect to them.
So I either go with David's way or cut into the Aro cable and put new terminations on - not my forte at all
hifi_dave
25-04-2012, 14:46
Well, I can do that but is it worth the trouble ?
If you could replace the whole cable with TQ, it might be worth it, otherwise you are just listening to the Naim cable. Or vice versa, depending on your point of view.
MikeMusic
25-04-2012, 14:50
Well, I can do that but is it worth the trouble ?
If you could replace the whole cable with TQ, it might be worth it, otherwise you are just listening to the Naim cable. Or vice versa, depending on your point of view.
Sounds best to put that to one side and look at any other improvements. in the system. Possibly revisit
Shame Naim painted me into a Naim/Racal corner
Guys - meanwhile, I'm having a custom tonearm cable created for me by Tellurium Q from their Black Phono cable (the product which is not listed but which I am using between my step-up transformer and phono preamp). I will have it for evaluation shortly.
I think Marco and I will need to put it up against the Yannis, especially as the TQ cable is a very reasonable £285 plus the cost of a DIN plug which they are fitting. This could be a battle extraordinaire :)
You must be special Martin as I asked for one and they told me it's in development, I wanted a Furutech Din on mine. Then one can have the same interconnect from phono stage to amp as tone arm cable to phono stage which makes perfect sense to me.
That's the plan, Dave. If it's a go then I'll have:
Tonearm > Black Phono > step-up > Black Phono > phonoamp > Black XLR > preamp > Black XLR > power amp > Ultra Black > speakers
That's the plan, Dave. If it's a go then I'll have:
Tonearm > Black Phono > step-up > Black Phono > phonoamp > Black XLR > preamp > Black XLR > power amp > Ultra Black > speakers
Nice :)
Reid Malenfant
25-04-2012, 20:03
I still reckon you should go balanced from the cartridge & all the way through if possible :) It's what I'd do & what I will do...
Congrats on your next post Martin, 8000 :eyebrows:
Oh, and I'm adding (while I'm at it):
SACD > Black XLR > preamp
Congrats on your next post Martin, 8000 :eyebrows:
Bloody hell! I need sit down :eek:
hifi_dave
25-04-2012, 20:20
Or get a life..:rolleyes:
I'm coming up for 2000. Must get out more.
The Grand Wazoo
25-04-2012, 23:42
It's funny Dave, because I'd have thought you'd have far more than 2,000 under your belt by now.
It just shows that quality more than makes up for quantity, I suppose!
hifi_dave
26-04-2012, 09:26
Thanks mate..:)
I'm selective and bide my time. I like to help where I can rather than push products. Just recently, I've got the hang of posting pics (thank you Alex) and have a chuckle every time one of my snaps appears successfully..:D
I know, I need a proper day job.
Indeed. Dave, you're a valued member of our community and a textbook example of how we like our trade members contributing to the forum - and long may it continue :)
Btw, could you do me a favour and have a word with matey-boy, t'other Dave, and tell him to come back because we miss him? It's daft falling out over hi-fi. AoS is as much about building friendships, as discussing hi-fi and music, and others and I here considered Dave as a friend.
Anyway, see what you can do. Churz! :cool:
Marco.
Rare Bird
26-04-2012, 10:12
Marco:
You been upsetting Dave R again :)
Lol - we had a wee disagreement over a bloody cartridge! :doh:
Life's too short....
Marco.
hifi_dave
26-04-2012, 10:39
I'll give it a go but he is a sensitive chap.
I miss him on here. I miss his photographic memory of products, people, times and dates long gone. I know he misses AOS because the other forums are often far too aggressive.
I'll e-mail him when I get back from Tesco..:rolleyes:
Rare Bird
26-04-2012, 10:42
Nice one Dave.. Sensitive! Jeez no one as sensative as me :D
Nice one, Dave. I totally agree. Just tell him to merge back in as if nothing has happened. No need for any drama or anything :cool:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
26-04-2012, 19:05
Tell 'im that if he comes back I might lend 'im me ARC SP8!!
Steady, there Chris - you nearly reached for the smileys!!
Come back Thing from Tring. We miss you!
MikeMusic
27-04-2012, 07:00
Agreed.
Very good input from my conversations
Getting back on-topic, chaps, I'm still enjoying listening to the results of the 428 Phono cable, in my system. However, further comparisons and listening have revealed that the Furutech cable (as mentioned before) still holds the upper hand, in terms of absolute clarity and detail retrieval, making the 428 Phono, on some material, sound a little soft and slightly opaque, in comparison.
However, in my system, this doesn't detract from the cable's other strengths, as previously described, but simply serves to highlight just how good the Furutech is, and also the difference in cost between both cables.
Based on what I've heard, however, I'm hopeful that the higher quality plugs I've ordered will address those issues, as what I'm hearing is a familiar effect caused by the use of plugs that contain a large amount of metal in their overall construction (thus subject to the effect of eddy currents), which I've heard before when comparing WBT 0102 ag RCAs, to their internal plastic housing counterparts, the 0110ag, which are totally free from eddy currents.
For more details on that subject, see here (where one can compare the internal construction of the 0102 vs. the 0110: http://www.wbt.de/index.php?id=77&backPID=77&tt_products=63 From the website:
Eddy currents occur in metal components close to where alternating currents flow. These currents can result in major signal distortions. The WBT-0110 Ag is designed in such a way that eddy currents do not occur at all.
WBT 0110ag: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8791/wbt0110aggr01.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/wbt0110aggr01.jpg/)
WBT 0102ag: http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2287/wbt0102aggr01number2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/wbt0102aggr01number2.jpg/)
As you can see, the two plugs are identical, apart from one having an inner housing made of metal, and the other one of red plastic (or rather some form of plastic material). I can tell you, however, that the simple replacement of that metal housing, with a non-metal one, is what significantly improves the sonic performance of the 0110ag!
It was after hearing the detrimental sonic effect obtained by fitting my Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects with the 0102s, which made me upgrade the WBT plugs to the 0110 types. The sonic improvement from doing so was easily noticeable, removing a 'fog' from the sound, which impeded dynamics, restricted stereo separation and the resolving of high-frequency detail. With both the stock DIN plug and LOK RCAs, currently fitted to my 428 Phono cable, containing a high amount of metal, even although the metal used is non-magnetic, I can hear exactly the effect I did before (and which I have just described) when I used the WBT 0102s.
Therefore, as neither the Furutech CF-DIN(R), nor the Eichmann silver bullet plugs I've ordered, use metal excessively in their construction, indeed keeping it to a minimum, I'm confident that along with their other construction and material qualities, they will eliminate the detrimental sonic effect I've described and allow the 428 phono's undoubted musical qualities to fully shine through.
Furthermore, the superior 423.5 phono-Litz tonearm cable, which I've also ordered from Yannis, when fitted with either its stock connectors or the Furutech/Eichmann combo, should significantly outperform the 428 Phono cable, due to its superior construction, details of which are outlined below:
The 423.5Phono-Litz is one of our best tonearm cable designs and incorporates some truly new features that set higher standards in audiophile silver cables. For this series of cables we have created a state of the art Litz conductor consisting of individually insulated pure OCC silver strands. These Litz conductors are a significant improvement over solid, stranded or traditional Litz designs that are available at the moment.
The OCC strands are made of the purest silver and have practically no crystal boundaries. The strands are threaded individually in tight miniature Teflon tubes and then helically wound. All the insulated strands are then covered with an outer layer of PTFE insulation to form a single conductor. The miniature tubes prevent any movement of the wires inside the insulation, maintain a fixed distance of 0.26mm among all the strands of the same conductor and create an outstanding level of insulation with low dielectric involvement compared to any coated Litz wire one may find in other hi-end silver cables.
One of the main advantages in using litz conductors is that they achieve the flexibility and strength of stranded conductors but eliminate the resonance that results from strand interaction in bare stranded wires. In addition to their excellent mechanical characteristics Litz conductors prevent surface corrosion.
The 423.5Phono-Litz consists of 4 of these Litz conductors (24AWG) arranged in a star-quad cable geometry and encased in 2 layers of PTFE before the entire bundle is threaded into a dense braided copper shield. The star-quad geometry is used thought the cable industry and in particular where low level signals are involved in order to enhance the noise rejection characteristics of the cable.
However, note that the geometry of the cable (star-quad, Litz braid, twisted pair) cannot replace the role of shield in terms of dealing with EMI and RFI. Claims by manufacturers who offer unshielded cables about “self-shielded” Litz geometries are misleading. A cable that does not have a shield is an unshielded cable and subject to all the consequences this entails. This does not mean that such a cable may not perform well enough. It means that if this cable is used in certain environment it will not be able to prevent EMI from reaching the signal path.
The outer protection of the cable aims at creating a good electrical insulation with suitable mechanical properties (i.e. strength, flexibility, vibration absorbency etc). To achieve such a thing our cables use three protecting layers above the shielding: Teflon insulation, flexible PVC jacket and flexible braided outer sleeve. Between the shield and the cable jacket there is an additional tightly wrapped layer of Teflon insulation. The cable jacket is made by flexible PVC and offers enhanced protection to the cable.
Finally the cable is finished with a high-quality Viablue flexible sleeve (a combination of Monofilament PET and expanding fabric fillers). The outer sleeve offers substantial protection against abrasion and bending. It is extremely flexible with a soft texture.
Overall a very robust but flexible construction which beyond the outstanding conductors it employs the most suitable dielectrics, a dense braided shield that effectively blocks any noise, and an efficient “Faraday Cage” ground/shield arrangement that isolates the external ground path from both “send” and “return” signal conductors.
The pure silver Litz conductor used for this cable is the result of extensive work and experimentation in order to produce the ultimate result. It is flexible and very durable compared to either solid or bare stranded conductors of the same size. The size of its individual cores is large enough to give all the benefits of a solid conductor.
The twisted strands carry the signal as individually insulated conductors exposing a much larger surface area than a solid 24AWG conductor would, while having a smaller diameter (shorter distance to their centres). Despite the star-quad geometry the capacitance of the cable does not exceed the 65pF/metre.
The sonic result is simply amazing. A fast and transparent cable. Open but not edgy with natural upper bass extension, rich midrange and detailed layering. It is a truly neutral and casts a beautiful three dimensionality to the soundstage. It will not increase bass or mask detail.
The cost of the materials and the work required in order to form such conductors inevitably set a relatively high price for these cables. For one meter of this cable we use 15 metres of solid silver and its construction takes over 8 hours of work. If the price was not an issue we would certainly replace most of our existing cables with the ones containing these Litz conductors with Teflon insulated cores.
At the tonearm / turntable end the cable is terminated to a high quality, right angle 5-pin, Teflon insulated DIN tonearm connector. The connector features, a two-part precision made metal housing, 24K gold plated OFC pins with anti stress pin construction ensuring against conductor fatigue and providing optimum performance.
At the pre-amp /amp end the cable is terminated to a pair of LOK (Performance series) silver, locking RCA connectors by HGA. The cable comes with 2 separate ground cables (one for the pre-amp and one for the turntable chassis) terminated to Vampire gold plated spade connectors
All the connections have been made using Cardas Tri-Eutectic Silver Solder and sealed with PTFE.
I've highlighted what I feel are some of the most notable points mentioned. It will certainly be very interesting hearing what the 423.5 Phono Litz brings to the party, and indeed the Furutech DIN and Eichmann silver bullet plugs. I'll update the thread as necessary as soon as I have all the relevant items in my possession for evaluation! :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
27-04-2012, 13:53
The more I learn the more I find I don't know ....
I think what people are missing here is for me that din connectors are flawed per se. Hence however good the cable it is ultimately dependent on the connectors and is why I prefer straight through cabling to phonos.
I agree, but surely then the quality of the phonos become just as important as the DIN plug, and thus could potentially act as a similar 'bottleneck'?
Really, all you're doing is shifting the break in the signal to a different point in the chain.
Marco.
sq225917
29-04-2012, 00:17
If you believe that plugs degrade the sound then all plugs could potentially be as large a bottleneck an any other. I have some leanings in that direction in so much as I think the fewer sockets and plugs the better. Whether a single extra connection is audible or not, I'd sure as hell not wire my hifi back to back with 100 rca sockets and plugs instead of a cable. So in this case I'd go straight through from cart to phonostage- missing out the internal tonearm to din wherever possible. One less extra connection can't hurt.
I hope I don't get off topic, but this story might be of some use/interest to this end:
Back in 2006, during the Athens High End Show, me and some friends of mine bumped into the CEO of a quite famous German manufacturer of all things analogue; he had different versions of tonearms on display, some direct-wired, some with 5-pin dins and some with external RCA junctions. So we asked him the inevitable question: what, in his mind, was the best approach?
Being the extraordinarily nice and polite man he is (or having nowhere to run - there was 5 of us after all..) he spent some time giving us his perspective and this is what he basically (In brief) had to say:
The tonearm cable is by far the most important one down the chain (probably blatantly obvious to many of you here, but certainly not for me at the time..)
Therefore, the less connectors/joints/solder etc the less loss of signal.
Hence, an "unbroken" direct wire from cartridge tags down to pre would indeed be the way to go; however, as in all cases, some connections are inevitable, so it is the quality/construction/design of the wire that first and foremost matters, more so than the connectors used.
Once you get down to the connectors, the least problematic or degrading approach would be to use non-magnetic connectors made out of good conductive materials (ie beryllium, rhodium).
Rounding up, if direct wiring is not an option, then the use of the best possible materials/components around could and should compensate.
Don't know what you gents think of the above - I am certainly not in a position to provide any insight. But perhaps Marco is right in arguing that better connectors might at the very least bring up or show the qualities of the cable itself.:cool:
So in this case I'd go straight through from cart to phonostage- missing out the internal tonearm to din wherever possible.
Without doubt, that would be the way to go, providing that you've chosen your favourite, 'final' cable - and you've no intention of changing it. Personally, I dislike the inflexibility of that arrangement, as I prefer having the convenience of using a detachable cable, as you never know when something better will come along than what you've got!
Also, I think people worry too much about the sonic effect of breaks in the signal, which in reality are likely to be virtually inaudible, particularly if you're reducing the number of breaks merely by one, when plenty more still remain... There are far more important things to be worrying about, such as making sure that the signal is of the highest sonic quality in the first place! ;)
Marco.
sq225917
29-04-2012, 17:57
Surely if you are removing one of two breaks thats 50% better. If you are only removing one of ten then the best you can hope for is a 10% improvement. So from a purely mathematic point of view, removing the next to last added joint in the signal path has to be the one with most chance of providing the greatest improvement. Short of hardwiring your arm cable to the pcb in your phonostage.
If it's thick enough to conduct, picks up no radio and doesn't roll off the treble then it'll do for me. I used to have a 4n silver in cotton, doubled quad, with each +/- twisted together and shielded with foil and then the whole thing being shielded in an additional full foil wrap (.3mm copper foil none of the this mylar backed crap). All wrapped in lovely cotton tape to damp it and finished with a silver plated Cardas 90 degree, Silver Eichmanns at the other end and dual external shield drains one of which was the armtube earth. Not surprisingly it still feels like it was overkill. ;-)
Surely if you are removing one of two breaks thats 50% better. If you are only removing one of ten then the best you can hope for is a 10% improvement. So from a purely mathematic point of view, removing the next to last added joint in the signal path has to be the one with most chance of providing the greatest improvement. Short of hardwiring your arm cable to the pcb in your phonostage.
Sure, providing that you can *actually* hear the improvement... The fact is, unless you directly compare the results of having one or two breaks in the chain, against having none, in order to discern whether the difference is audible (with no other variables in the equation), then you'll never know! ;)
It's not exactly a straightforward A/B/A comparison... Obviously you should minimise the amount of signal breaks, as far as possible, but I believe that the improvement gained from doing so (providing that there doesn't exist a ridiculous amount in the first place) is often vastly overstated.
For example, I've never bought the idea (or heard the claimed signal degradation) of using tonearms with detachable headshells - *providing* that the more important areas of their design are sufficiently well engineered.
Experience has also taught me that some of the uber-engineered Japanese tonearms (with detachable headshells), such as those from Fidelity Research, or my own Ortofon RS-212D, outperform many well-regarded fixed headshell designs, basically because the quality of their overall engineering is superior, and so the latter outweighs any negligible detrimental sonic effect caused by their detachable headshells (and the break in the signal path imparted by that aspect of their design).
It's called achieving a balance of compromises :)
There is undoubtedly much more to worry about and get right with a turntable than eliminating a few joins in the signal path inside a tonearm. Quite simply, the most important and significant difference there is between two similarly priced and well-engineered tonearms, one with a fixed headshell, and the other detachable, is that cartridges are a damned sight easier to fit on the latter!! :D
Marco
I'm not a fan of detachable headshells.
hifi_dave
29-04-2012, 21:50
Some of the very best arms I have used and own have detachable headshells. Fixed headshells are not the panacea for all ills. I would like to see more current arms, at a reasonable price with detachable shells. But that's me..:rolleyes:
hifi_dave
29-04-2012, 21:51
Hey, I've gone over 2000 posts..:carrot:
I didn't say a fixed headshell is any sort of panacea; but adding compromise, where none need exist, is certainly no panacea either.
I certainly wouldn't include this 'feature' in any arm design I had a hand in.
hifi_dave
29-04-2012, 22:15
Some of the arms considered to be up amongst the 'best' like Fidelity Research, Ikeda, SME, Dynavector, SAEC, Ortofon etc, etc are not that compromised, are they..:scratch:
Yeah, and lots of others considered to be 'the best' don't - in fact most don't.
hifi_dave
29-04-2012, 22:30
So, if the arm is well engineered, there's no benefit in having a fixed headshell..:scratch: Other than it is easier and cheaper to make. It's just a different compromise.
Oh, forgot the Thomas Schick designs.
sq225917
29-04-2012, 22:45
If I had cartridges to swap, I might want a removable headshell as certainly then they provide a useful function, but as I don't they can offer nothing of value over a fixed headshell. Of course the flip side is equally valid and those companies that offer both types of arm have made the right decision- selling people what they want. ;-)
I could offer the small but valid point that cartridges are way easier to mount and align in a headshell compared with a fixed arm design.
But it's unnecessary, as I've already done so:
Quite simply, the most important and significant difference there is between two similarly priced and well-engineered tonearms, one with a fixed headshell, and the other detachable, is that cartridges are a damned sight easier to fit on the latter!!
;)
Like I've said, I've never heard the claimed sonic degradation of using tonearms with detachable headshells (if I had, there's NO WAY I'd use one), providing that the tonearm's overall construction and engineering quality is in the highest rank, as is the case with my Ortofon, a Fidelity Research, or Martin's superb Dynavector - and indeed all the arms that Dave mentioned.
One only has to carry out some relevant comparisons to discover that fact!
Also, isn't there a theory that the detachable shell decouples the cartridge from the arm's main resonance modes (or something along those lines?)
Marco.
sq225917
30-04-2012, 08:06
I've never heard that 'theory', it sounds more like idle supposition. The last thing you want in any tonearm is decoupling, because that just means some kind of 'floppy' and that means not under control. A bit of damping is good, but I'd always prefer things to be notionally rigid.
Cool, Simon. No worries...I've no idea whether there's anything or not in such a theory.
All I know is that there's no way I'd trade the huge convenience of mounting cartridges in high-quality detachable headshell arms (and being able to swap cartridges quickly for something else), for using arms with fixed headshells, in order to gain a claimed increase in sonic performance, which I've never heard :)
As a matter of interest, has anyone ever compared two SME 3009s, with the same cartridge (in an otherwise identical T/T and system) - one being the older version with a detachable headshell, and the other, the later 'improved' version, with a fixed headshell? And if you have, did you notice much difference?
That would be the only true way of settling the argument, as no other tonearm that I know of is available with or without a detachable headshell, and so when one normally carries out such a comparison, too many other variables are in the equation, in order to test properly for the claimed sonic degradation.
I sometimes wonder if those who dismiss tonearms with detachable headshells do so because the idea doesn't fit with their notion of 'tonearm perfection' or 'engineering logic', rather than having the practical experience of comparing one type of arm against the other (in the absence of all other variables), and thus arriving at a more meaningful conclusion? ;)
In my experience, lateral thinking often defies 'obvious logic'...
Also, there was a lot of brainwashing done by the press, in the UK audio scene, in the 70s and 80s, an example of which is the now well-documented unfair bias against (all) direct-drive turntables. 'S-shaped' tonearms, with detachable headshells, being automatically inferior to 'straight armtube' fixed-headshell types, also came into that catergory, and I think that those who were influenced by, and in turn bought that bullshit, still can't shake off that bias...
Following fashion and conforming to the 'accepted norm' often has much to answer for in audio, whereas having the courage of your convictions and the gumption to think for yourself, challenging 'obvious choices', and going a different route from the sheep, more often than not pays dividends!
Marco (forever an audio non-conformist).
hifi_dave
30-04-2012, 08:39
Having used many of each design over the years, I don't think there is any advantage for either fixed or detachable, except for cartridge mounting. It's just a different philosophy like transistor v valve or belt v idler etc. Whatever floats yer boat.
I totally agree, Dave. Have you ever done the comparison with an SME 3009, as outlined above? :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
30-04-2012, 13:26
Just my $0.02 worth. What happens if you cant be arsed with shifting from one head shell to the other, just like me! I like fixed head shells for the simple reason that half of the arsing around aligning a cartridge is removed for you. Personally I've not heard that much difference, sonically, between fixed or detatchable head shells. I think this is yet another variable where far too much time is spent "worrying" and not enough time spent enjoying the music. :scratch:
I think this is yet another variable where far too much time is spent "worrying" and not enough time spent enjoying the music. :scratch:
Here, here... :clapclapclap:
Hi Andrew,
Just my $0.02 worth. What happens if you cant be arsed with shifting from one head shell to the other, just like me!
There's no need to do that if you only have one cartridge. Some us, though, have half a dozen or more, all set-up to go in separate headshells, so having a tonearm with a detachable headshell makes it much easier to swap between them!
Quite often it's nice hearing an alternative 'take' on your favourite music, offered by a cartridge with a rather different sonic presentation from your usual choice, especially when you can access that pleasure in a matter of minutes (sometimes seconds) :)
I like fixed head shells for the simple reason that half of the arsing around aligning a cartridge is removed for you.
Like I said, it's a non-issue if you just have one cartridge. Once said cartridge is successfully installed in position, it's 'fit and forget', no matter whether your tonearm has a fixed headshell or not.
However, fitting the cartridge in the first place is a damn sight easier when you can remove the headshell from the arm!
Personally I've not heard that much difference, sonically, between fixed or detatchable head shells. I think this is yet another variable where far too much time is spent "worrying" and not enough time spent enjoying the music.
Indeed. Out with of discussing the matter here, I don't worry about such things in the slightest! :cool:
Marco.
sq225917
30-04-2012, 14:55
I have to agree, I've owned SME's with fixed and detachable headshells and they sounded no different. But as stated I had no need for it to detach so the choice on which to keep was simple.
Interesting, Simon... So bang goes the theory that more breaks in the signal path in tonearms (audibly) degrades sonic performance, which takes us back to what we were discussing earlier, and that there are far more important and influential aspects of tonearm design to worry about getting right! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 15:21
Has anyone received one of these cables yet?
That's a whole lot of waffle & no action :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
30-04-2012, 15:39
Hi Andrew,
There's no need to do that if you only have one cartridge. Some us, though, have half a dozen or more, all set-up to go in separate headshells, so having a tonearm with a detachable headshell makes it much easier to swap between them!
Quite often it's nice hearing an alternative 'take' on your favourite music, offered by a cartridge with a rather different sonic presentation from your usual choice, especially when you can access that pleasure in a matter of minutes (sometimes seconds) :)
Like I said, it's a non-issue if you just have one cartridge. Once said cartridge is successfully installed in position, it's 'fit and forget', no matter whether your tonearm has a fixed headshell or not.
However, fitting the cartridge in the first place is a damn sight easier when you can remove the headshell from the arm!
Indeed. Out with of discussing the matter here, I don't worry about such things in the slightest! :cool:
Marco.
Some very valid points there my friend cant argue with them. ;)
Here, here... :clapclapclap:
Thanks mate!
I have to agree, I've owned SME's with fixed and detachable headshells and they sounded no different. But as stated I had no need for it to detach so the choice on which to keep was simple.
Ahhh.. We agree on something then!
Has anyone received one of these cables yet?
That's a whole lot of waffle & no action :eyebrows:
YES!!!!!! I've been waiting for mine because its got some added bling on it! So, with a little luck I should have mine in next few days and I'll send out a report.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 15:47
YES!!!!!! I've been waiting for mine because its got some added bling on it! So, with a little luck I should have mine in next few days and I'll send out a report.
Excellent, about time to :D Here's hoping the cable is as tasty sounding as it looks!
Has anyone received one of these cables yet?
That's a whole lot of waffle & no action :eyebrows:
Did you miss my posts #72 and #143, daftee, where the cable has not only been received but also (partially) reviewed? :doh: ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2012, 15:59
Probably yes Marco, I guess I must have done or I wouldn't have typed what I did :D
I'm looking forward to your review when your cables/s get to you, after all (& I haven't looked before you ask) I'm not sure I'd know who reviewed them or know to trust their ears :cool:
No worries, dude. There will be a full comparison between the less expensive '428 Phono' and the more upmarket '432.5' version, both fitted with 'fancy' plugs, as soon as they arrive :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
30-04-2012, 16:37
I totally agree, Dave. Have you ever done the comparison with an SME 3009, as outlined above? :)
Marco.
Do you mean SME 3009 fixed v detachable ? If so, then yes I have done a few times and to be honest, I would struggle to hear any difference. Neither was better or worse, just a teensy, weensy bit different.
When I eventually pack up selling Hi-Fi and have just the one system (:eek:), I will use my TD124 with FR-64S tonearm.
Oh and 250 different cartridges..:thumbsup:
Do you mean SME 3009 fixed v detachable ? If so, then yes I have done a few times and to be honest, I would struggle to hear any difference. Neither was better or worse, just a teensy, weensy bit different.
When I eventually pack up selling Hi-Fi and have just the one system (:eek:), I will use my TD124 with FR-64S tonearm.
Oh and 250 different cartridges..:thumbsup:
Would be more than happy with that combo.
Borrowed a friends 124 with 12" ortofon and spu.
It is sounding very good indeed.
Do you mean SME 3009 fixed v detachable ? If so, then yes I have done a few times and to be honest, I would struggle to hear any difference. Neither was better or worse, just a teensy, weensy bit different.
I don't remember ever doing a straight a-b on these two, but certainly in isolation but on similar turntables and using suitable cartridges, I wouldn't say any difference at all really mattered. Wasn't the fixed shell mainly to further reduce mass, which was what "everyone" was chasing back then - forty years ago now as the Improved arm came out in 1972 IIRC...
hifi_dave
30-04-2012, 17:01
Yup, reduced mass so that we could track our ADC's and Shures at 0.25 - 0.5 grammes. Trouble was, a passing fly could blow the arm off course.
1 to 1.3g is ok though. I have a V15 III mounted ready for experiment, but also have spare ADC XLM II, III and Phase IV ready to rumble - oh sorry, it'll be on a Thorens 160, so I suppose "ready to wow" should be said instead :D
hifi_dave
30-04-2012, 17:36
How many turntables have you got now ? You sneaked that TD160 in..:scratch:
Well, you've got the TD125 now, so that leaves the SL1500 (oh, you've got that too at the mo..), The Dual 701, 1970's Beogram 3000, Garrard AT6, 60mk2, Lab 80, AP76 (:)) and a motley collection of cartridges :lol:
I can't be bothered reading the whole thread.... Is that cable any good then?
hifi_dave
30-04-2012, 21:22
Lightweight..
Lightweight..
Cheers... that helps.
I can't be bothered reading the whole thread.... Is that cable any good then?
Yes, but for more info, read my preliminary reviews on posts #72 and #143 :)
Marco.
Do you mean SME 3009 fixed v detachable ? If so, then yes I have done a few times and to be honest, I would struggle to hear any difference. Neither was better or worse, just a teensy, weensy bit different.
That's what I thought would've happened... Like DSJR says, people were using them then with Shure V15s, so if the revised version of the 3009 was lower mass, then that's what would've effected an improvement, not the fact that it had a fixed headshell.
When I eventually pack up selling Hi-Fi and have just the one system, I will use my TD124 with FR-64S tonearm.
Great combo!
Oh and 250 different cartridges..
Hehehe... Just because you can! :D
But which one would you try first? The FR-64 is crying out for something vintage and low-compliance ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
01-05-2012, 20:46
Hmmm, now would that be one of my SPUs or the SL15E, perhaps a brace of Koetsus including the first ever one imported into the UK. No wait, a Lyra or two, JVC MC1, Accuphase, Goldring G800, some Shures. I know - Decca Dark Blue, microscannered of course or an SC4E or just a plain ol' Jeweltone Ribbon.:scratch:
So many cartridges, so little time.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
...or a Technics 100C, an original Dynavector Karat Diamond or an ADC 26.
Rare Bird
01-05-2012, 21:42
...or a Technics 100C, an original Dynavector Karat Diamond or an ADC 26.
:eyebrows:
alfie2902
02-05-2012, 00:36
Very interesting thread. I really rate the silver Audio Note cables made up into a tonearm cable, but they don't come cheap. So this could be a cheap alternative.
I will look forward to all the full reviews, after the cables have arrived, had time to settle & been put through their paces a little.
Wakefield Turntables
05-05-2012, 15:12
To get back on track. My tonearm cable arrived today so I'll have a quick plug in and listen over the weekend. I'll update you all soon.
Nice one, Andy. It'll be interesting to know what you think :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
05-05-2012, 17:44
Just fitted it after extensive remodelling of the 1210 sub plinth, I've had to hack a fair old bit for it to fit but its now in and fitted so a week or two's listening is needed.
Is the cable Yannis sent still hitting the spot, Andy? :)
Anyway, just another update on the position with my own tonearm cables, and also a small clarification...
Yannis has now shipped my 432.5 Phono Litz cable, pictures shown, as below (he sends his apologies for the poorer than usual picture quality, as his usual camera is in for repair):
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9774/spa0112t.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/spa0112t.jpg/)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5104/spa0116.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/spa0116.jpg/)
As you can see, this cable has been fitted with a 'straight-type' Furutech CF-DIN(R) and some solid-silver Eichmann 'Bullet-Plug' RCAs. The new cable should be with me early next week, so I'm looking forward to hearing how it sounds in comparison with the less expensive 428 Phono Litz cable, which I've currently got.
However, just to clarify things... The cable Andy has is in fact an 'SPD-4', which is different from both the 428 and 432.5 Phono Litz, as it is not a Hybrid design. The point of a hybrid is to use pure cores of different materials. Andy's cable is just solid-silver, as apparently that's what he requested. The SPD-4 is a 'special order only' cable, and notably more expensive than the other cables in question.
Therefore, to allow me to compare the differences between a silver litz cable, and just a solid-silver cable, using the same connectors, Yannis is now also sending me an SPD-4, which will be with me in two weeks. It'll therefore be very interesting hearing what that brings to the party, bearing in mind its significant (but not excessive) extra cost.
A full review, therefore, of all three tonearm cables will take place as soon as I have all of them in my possession! :cool:
Marco.
What is the price of that other cable? SPD4?
You can get an Oyaide pure copper cable for £230. These greek cables are not as cheap as you think when you examine it.
That depends on their relative performance.
Wakefield Turntables
08-05-2012, 16:12
What is the price of that other cable? SPD4?
£440
You can get an Oyaide pure copper cable for £230. These greek cables are not as cheap as you think when you examine it.
They are a lot cheaper than my other tonearm cable at £1229 :eek:
I'm still evaluating the impact its having on my system. All I'll say at the moment is that Yannis's cable is certainly an equal to the TYR. More updates later.
That depends on their relative performance.
Indeed, and remember that we're talking here about pure silver cables, which are much more expensive. Also, remember that the 428 Phono cable I've currently got costs only £124, for a 1m length, and based on what I've heard, it's 90% as good as the Furutech AG-12, costing £450! ;)
I'm hopeful that the 432.5 phono at £219, for a 1m length, plus the extra for the 'fancy plugs' I've ordered, will give me the missing 10% and still come in at less than the AG-12. One observation I'd also make is that, based on this test, the Furutech is worth every penny of its cost, as so far, it's not easily bettered by its less expensive counterparts, which shows that one is not simply paying for a 'fancy badge'!
The SPD-4 is comparable, price-wise, with the Furutech (with standard connectors) but I suspect, of a higher level, sonically. However, we'll see what happens when it arrives. Therefore, if you're looking for a top-quality, high value for money silver tonearm cable, then both the 428 Phono and 432.5 Phono (with or without 'posh plugs') are the potential 'giant-killers'....
Yannis has sent me the following, in order to provide more clarity:
The 428Phono has solid conductors and Litz cable geometry
The 423.5Phono-Litz has Litz conductors and Star-Quad cable geometry
The SPD-4 uses Litz conductors with multi gauge strands and has a Star-Quad cable geometry.
None of the cables that you currently have or expecting to receive is a hybrid. They are pure OCC silver.
The SPD-4 in its original design is a hybrid because it combines solid OCC silver, Copper and Mundorf silver/gold strands. However, since both Andy and you have ordered the SPD-4 design but in a pure silver version it cannot be called a hybrid any longer.
Some details for the 428 can be found here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/428phono.html
Details for the 423.5Phono-Litz here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono_litz.html
Some notes about Litz in general and about our Litz conductors are available here: www.back-promo.co.uk/html/litz.html
In general, the SPD-4 is not a cable that we have available for sale. Our SPD (Special Project Designs) are part of an ongoing development process. Although they have various advantages over our standard designs, these come at a much higher proportionally cost and therefore we do not consider them as the best value for money options and we are relatively reluctant to encourage first time buyers to purchase them over the internet.
When designing a cable the options are unlimited. Constantly working on new designs allows us to improve or achieve different balances in audio cables. However, materialising some ideas often involves extensive costs that cannot be justified by the minor improvements or differences in the performance of a cable (which often is down to the personal preferences). In such occasions we believe that we should not advertise these products.
We recently worked on a cable (without taking into account the design or the evaluation process) for over 300hrs. That was simply to produce 1 unit and each additional would take almost as much time. Despite the cost of the materials, such a cable could only sell at a very unreasonable price simply because of the work it requires in order to be produced. We do work on new designs and ideas all the time, and this is the beauty in what we do. This does not mean that all of our work has a commercial scope.
I hope that the above was of some help.
Regards
Yannis
Marco.
it's 90% as good as the Furutech AG-12, costing £450!
I remember that we connected up the AG-12 for a while to your deck (I think my arm wouldn't take the 90° connector on your loan cable) on my system. It sounded mighty impressive, as does all silver when done properly. Is this still your reference, Marco, against which you are comparing other cables?
Do you now have a version with straight-in connector? This is what I would like to hear, compared with the Yannis, the Dynavector and, possibly, the experimental TQ* if I receive it on time.
I'd like to hear them all and come to a decision as the last piece of my signal/speaker cable renewal project.
------------------------
* I must stress that this cable is not coming from Tellurium Q themselves, it is an experiment with my dealer to see if the Phono version of their cable can be made to work.
Hi Martin,
I remember that we connected up the AG-12 for a while to your deck (I think my arm wouldn't take the 90° connector on your loan cable) on my system. It sounded mighty impressive, as does all silver when done properly. Is this still your reference, Marco, against which you are comparing other cables?
Yup! :)
Do you now have a version with straight-in connector? This is what I would like to hear, compared with the Yannis, the Dynavector and, possibly, the experimental TQ* if I receive it on time.
The AG-12 I have has a straight-type DIN plug, as indeed do all the other tonearm cables I'll be testing, from Jannis.
I should have the AG-12, and both the 428 and 432.5 Phono Litz cables for our bake-off, a week this weekend. The comparisons should indeed be fun between those, the TQ and the Dynavector! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
08-05-2012, 18:39
The SPD-4 allows you to see more deeply "into" the soundstage. Bass has better clarity and better definition and more "oomph". Vocals however appear a little thinner than what i'm used to with the TYR. Microdetail has increased and my systems ability to be clinical and dispel poor recordings seems to have increased. Soundstage is bigger and I'm hearing more seperation between instruments, complex prog rock sections can be followed with greater ease. I think I need more time for the cable and SR7 to bed down before I can really give a detailed analysis.
Hi Tristan,
Still waiting for the second cable to arrive - should be here by Friday. I'll let you know :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
15-05-2012, 15:44
I'm getting near desperate for a new upgrade arm cable i'm just wondering weither to make one up myself!
Still waiting for the second cable to arrive - should be here by Friday.
Perfect timing :eyebrows:
Yes, let's hope so! :)
Marco.
Hi Tristan,
Still waiting for the second cable to arrive - should be here by Friday. I'll let you know :)
Marco.
Good news. Lets hope it gets out before they close the borders.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2012, 19:33
Hi Tristan,
Still waiting for the second cable to arrive - should be here by Friday. I'll let you know :)
Marco.
Is this the same cable as what im trying out?
brian2957
15-05-2012, 19:44
Is this the same guy on Ebay ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pure-Litz-silver-shielded-tonearm-cable-StarQuad-geometry-Teflon-dielectric-/221014744426?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item3375815d6a
Brian.
Hi Brian,
Yup - that's the chap! :)
Marco.
Hi Andrew,
Is this the same cable as what im trying out?
No, it's the 'posher' litz cable (432.5 Phono), which is coming, and that I still expect to be pretty special. My SPD-4, the same as yours, is not due yet for another week or so.
Marco.
That looks a good spec, Marco. I expect it to sound rather good.
Should do, Martin, especially with the Furutech DIN and Eichmann silver bullets on it... I'm just hoping that it arrives before Saturday :)
Marco.
brian2957
15-05-2012, 21:10
Hi Brian,
Yup - that's the chap! :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco , his cables look quite interesting .
Brian.
Trust me, they are! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2012, 21:15
Hi Andrew,
No, it's the 'posher' litz cable (432.5 Phono)
Marco.
What makes you say this Marco:scratch: How its litz posh:scratch::scratch:
Lol, daftee... Not 'posher' than the SPD-4 (what you have), but 'posher' than the less expensive 428 Phono Litz cable... Do keep up! :D
;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
15-05-2012, 21:22
Dude, its only 10.19 but i'm shattered I've had a very busy day today so keeping up with this thread after 20 pages of posts is frying my noodles! The SPD-4 IS better than the TYR but its difficult to seperate the improvements on my system because I got the SR7XL two days before the tonearm cable arrived. Thats why i've not written a super-dooper report on the cable, SORRY BOYS;)
I'm a bit confused now! Who has exactly what?
Lol... I have 428 Phono Litz, with standard plugs, priced at £124. I'm waiting on a 432.5 Phono Litz, priced at £210 (plus extra for 'posh plugs') arriving any day now, and also an SPD-4 (the same as Andy's), priced at £440, arriving in around a week.
All of the above will eventually be compared with the £450 Furutech AG-12, which I'm currently using.
I trust that this clears up the confusion? :)
Marco.
So...what's the difference between the 428, 432.5 and SPD-4 (appart from £316)?
Matey, you need to scroll back and read the last few pages of the thread properly - all the info is in there (and links supplied by Yannis, which explain the different construction of the cables in question) :)
Marco.
P.S it's 428, incidentally, not 482. The 428 and 423.5 numerically define the difference in conductor thickness, used in both cables.
Actually, I have read back through the posts quite a way (a few times) - the info line isn't very linear though and there is quite a lot of unrelated chat.
Doesn't matter though.
Actually, I have read back through the posts quite a way (a few times) - the info line isn't very linear though...
It never is on forums...
See my post #203 (and the links therein) here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=323789&postcount=203
All is explained in there :)
Marco.
Ah yes, that clarifies things :) Cheers.
No worries, dude. As you can see, the internal construction and materials used are different with each cable, and therefore explain the differences in cost :)
Judging by the 'sound-per-pound value' I've heard so far, with the entry-level 428 Phono, I'd expect the SPD-4 (for example, at £440), sonically, to perform far in excess of its cost, which is why Andy has already commented that it's even better than his usual Nordost tonearm cable, costing £1229! :eek:
Indeed, the 428 Phono (at £124) sounds as good as many other tonearm cables I've heard at twice the price and more, which augurs well in terms of what the 423.5 Phono will be capable of, and thus so far, ably demonstrates the 'giant-killing' potential of the cables that Yannis produces.
Marco.
Well, everything's arrived now, except the SPD-4, which should be here sometime late next week, so it's comparisons ahoy tomorrow at Martin's place!! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
18-05-2012, 14:54
I've been listening to the SPD-4 with my old Audio technica cartridge (see sig), I now have the Ortonfon black strapped into the 1210 to commence further listening tests and it will be nice to hear what comparisons Marco & Martin come up with over the next few days.
I've been having a brief listen to the 423.5 Phono Litz, fitted with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and silver Eichmanns, and even at this early stage it's sounding quite superb, and significantly better than the 428 Phono Litz, with standard connectors, which is to be expected, given the difference in cost.
The 423.5 Phono Litz has a gorgeously fluid, vivid and lyrical sound, punctuated by phenomenal filigree detailing, making all musical performances come alive in the most involving way. It's not fully burned in yet, but this cable has all the hallmarks of being something rather special indeed...
Stay tuned for some detailed thoughts, after my session tomorrow at Martin's place! :cool:
Marco.
Stratmangler
18-05-2012, 22:03
I'm getting near desperate for a new upgrade arm cable i'm just wondering weither to make one up myself!
Might be worth talking to Will.
He's not posted for a while, but he checks in once in a while.
Wakefield Turntables
18-05-2012, 22:42
Right just a few quick notes. I've had the SPD4 strapped in with an ortofon cadenza black. I just listened to Kind of Blue (Miles Davis). The cable gives a truly 3D representation of whats on the disc. Miles sits centrally in the soundstage, Bill Evans sits firmly in the background. Every instrument can be perfectly placed in a 3D soundstage. The TYR does not give this depth or width of soundstage as the SPD4. Every instrument has greater detail and texture. The cable probably needs a few more hours to burn in, but boy is it something special.
Yesterday we (Marco, MikeMusic and me) spent some considerable time evaluating the tonearm cables at our disposal and we made some surprising and very revealing discoveries. We listened to:
Stock Dynavector silver cable (came with my DV507-II arm)
Yannis 428 Phono
Yannis 423.5 with standard connectors
Yannis 423.5 with Furutech & silver Eichmann connectors
Furutech AG12
Having already played music on my stock system, we tried the Yannis 423.5 with Furutech/Eichmann connectors, thinking that if we're going to hear differences then let's put the top cable in.
Well, let's dispense with the usual jaw-dropping day/night stuff and simply say that we were stunned at what we heard. I turned to Marco and said "did she (Norah Jones) just stand up?" Such was the increase in stage width and, especially, height, that we were now hearing deeper into the mix, with much more delineation of individual strands of the music. The rhythmic intensity was improved and the insight and liquidity of the midrange was magnificent.
Marco's words were "the Dynavector cable was destroyed" and I reluctantly had to agree.
After this we tried the 423.5 with the stock connectors and the soundstage collapsed to smaller dimensions with less insight into fine detail. So what we were hearing, then, was just the change in the two connectors at either end! I must admit that this was a bit of a revelation for me as I couldn't really see why this would make such a difference. However, the proof was there and we swapped back and forth just to convince ourselves of what we were hearing.
We then proceeded to determine a ranking, with the 428 and AG12 not being in the same class as the 423.5, so they were fairly easily dismissed - this is within the context of my system, though, so the 428 especially still qualifies as great value for money in a less highly revealing system.
I'll leave Marco to add his thoughts but my strong memories from this session are that cable really matters (as if I didn't know) and connectors matter! I'll be waiting for Marco's comparison of his 423.5 with special connectors against the SPD-4 that he will receive, but Yannis is going to be receiving an order from me real soon :)
Showing Marco's deck with Ortofon SUT on my system's isolated rack. We switched decks and gave each one the space needed to perform at its best.
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/P1000625.jpg
Vinyl Listened To:
Norah Jones - Not Too Late
Muddy Waters - Folk Singer
Tim Buckley - Blue Afternoon
Bill Callaghan - Apocalypse
Spirit - 12 Dreams of Dr Sardonicus
KT Tunstall - (Ltd Edition) False Alarm EP (on 7" vinyl)
Tindersticks - The Something Rain
Nina Simone - Wild is the Wind
John Martyn - Heaven and Earth
Kraftwerk - Tour de France (Kling Klang Analogue Mix), 12" single
Antonio Forcione - Tears of Joy
Gentle Giant - In A Glass House
Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom
Harry Belafonte - Live at Carnegie Hall
Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries
Yello - Touch
Jan Hammer - Oh Yeah!
Kokomo - Kokomo
King Crimson - Lizard
KD Lang - Drag
Rare Bird
20-05-2012, 09:48
Might be worth talking to Will.
He's not posted for a while, but he checks in once in a while.
:scratch: I quite capable of making my own cables up.
Stratmangler
20-05-2012, 10:58
:scratch: I quite capable of making my own cables up.
Misread post Andre.
For some strange reason I didn't see the word "cable", and thought you meant tonearm, and Will makes his own tonearms :)
Wakefield Turntables
20-05-2012, 20:09
Come on Marco, are we going to get some comments from you with regards your latest cable bake off??
Yes, daftee. Be patient, as I'm just collating my thoughts. I've been asleep most of the day, recovering from a 400-mile round trip to Martin's and back!
Marco.
MikeMusic
20-05-2012, 20:34
Vinyl Listened To:
plus
Jan Hammer - Oh Yeah!
Kokomo - Kokomo
King Crimson - Lizard
possibly one or 2 more we both forgot - I had these written down to take
I was there mostly for my good looks - and to learn about some of these exotic things.
Some of my albums did not sound too good, having their production exposed and looking pretty poor naked
Some adjustments to my system look to be in order
What did you think of the Greek tonearm cables, Mike, in comparison with the the Furutech and Martin's Dynavector?
I'll summarise, after you've posted your thoughts :)
Marco.
plus
Jan Hammer - Oh Yeah!
Kokomo - Kokomo
King Crimson - Lizard
Thanks, Mike. I've added them to my post to make it complete.
Ok, some thoughts on the tonearm cable situation, prior to heading off to listen to a few choons, before sleepy-byes...
As the 423.5 Phono Litz cables only arrived on Friday this week, I only had time to give the best one a quick listen, with a couple of albums, before dismantling the T/T from my system, in readiness for going down to Martin's place, first thing the following morning. However, as I indicated in an earlier post, even at that stage I could tell that the cable fitted with the Furutech DIN plug and silver Eichmanns, was rather tasty, and even that when not anywhere near burned-in, the sound it was producing was rather special...
Therefore, even though I suspected it was good, I really didn't know what to expect when the cable was subjected to the full scrutiny of Martin's uber-revealing and very carefully assembled high-end system. The questions going through my mind were: would it sound pants when compared with the silver tonearm cable of his (superb) Dynavector tonearm? Would the Furutech AG-12 still whip BOTH of their arses? Heck, maybe I've just wasted time and money on trying out these cables from Greece??
Thankfully, none of the above applied, and what transpired was very interesting indeed, and more than a little satisfying, as I'd rather put my neck on the line by pitching these Greek cables to all and sundry as potential 'giant killers', with so many people waiting on the outcome! However, when Martin removed the stock cable on his Dynavector arm, replaced it with the Furutech and Eichmann-equipped 423.5 Phono Litz cable in question, and popped the needle in the groove, I was utterly gob-smacked at what I was hearing - and I could tell by looking at Martin's face, that he felt the same... I guess we were both thinking the same thing: 'how could a simple tonearm cable change effect *THIS* much of a sonic improvement??' :eek:
Like Martin said, we were listening at the time to the Norah Jones album 'Not Too Late', and when the 423.5 Phono went in, it was as if she had been previously singing, sat on a stool, and then had stood up, such was the effect of the greater image height and depth to the sound, and the way that the apparent decrease in the noise-floor had increased the clarity and intelligibility of her voice. As if that wasn't enough, such fundamental improvements were only part of the story, as along with the increased clarity and vocal intelligibility, also came a breathtaking increase in high-frequency filigree detailing, allowing cymbal work and vocal inflections, which had previously been hidden in the mix (and thus diluted), to be more faithfully projected, and as a result, tangible. Now both those effects had combined to create a sense of realism and 'being there', which was little short of spine-tingling.
What I heard was rather like what happens when going from using a decent, although unspectacular MM pick-up cartridge, to a top-notch MC cartridge, fitted with a fine-line stylus; in effect, an opaqueness and 'fog' had been lifted from the sound and replaced with a crystalline clarity and 'sparkle', which shone an intense spotlight onto the recording, thus allowing one a most detailed insight into the musical programme. I said to Martin that, quite frankly, I'd have been more than happy if that level of improvement had come from a major component change, rather than simply swapping a tonearm cable, and he agreed. Indeed, I had to convince him not to order an identical cable, on the spot (thinking here that the forthcoming SPD-4 may be even better), such was the intensity of his desire to immediately have one of his own. It was that veritable 'must have' feeling one always experiences, whenever successfully introducing into one's system, such a no-brainer and all-round fundamental sonic improvement! :exactly:
We also compared the 423.5 Phono, fitted with 'posh plugs', to my current reference, the Furutech AG-12, which at that point was still leading the way, ahead of the entry-level 428 Phono, and which had performed extremely well for a relatively budget design. To my ears, the AG-12 was better than Martin's stock Dynavector cable, but quite simply not in the same league as the 423.5 Phono, fitted with the Furutech and Eichmanns, the latter which sounded much more detailed and 'wide-open', making the Furutech sound rather opaque and congested, in comparison. The Greek cable may cost approximately the same as the £450 Furutech, when fitted with my chosen 'audiophile-grade' connectors, but its sonic performance is far in excess of that, and I suspect would rival pretty much anything else available. Yes, it is *that* good!
The fact that Andy also considers the SPD-4 to outperform his £1229 Nordost Tyr, speaks volumes for the high-end cable designs that Yannis produces, and I can say the very same with the Furutech/Eichmann-equipped 423.5 Phono Litz.
Now for the really interesting bit....!
Yannis also sent me another 423.5 Phono cable, which was identical in every way to the other we'd just listened to, apart from being fitted with the connectors normally supplied as standard (LOK RCAs and a right-angled DIN connector of unknown origin, both rather heavy, due to their all-metal construction), and with a £219 asking price, instead of the Furutech DIN plug and Eichmann Silver Bullets, which I had asked to be fitted to the other 423.5 Phono cable. These less expensive 'stock' connectors were the same as were supplied with the entry-level 428 Phono, which I've been using recently and have commented on already.
Based on that experience, and on that of using solid-silver conductor WBT plugs, with and without a significant use of metal in their overall construction (0102 Ag and 0110 Ag types, respectively), I had an inkling what was going to happen, but said nothing when Martin plugged the stock 423.5 Phono Litz cable into the base of his Dynavector tonearm, in place of the cable fitted with the Furutech/Eichmann connector combo. I wanted him to hear, unprompted, what I was expecting... Well, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating (or in this case listening), and when playing the same Norah Jones track again, whilst the sound was far from disastrous, the musical presentation had lost its previous 'magic', which had made the performance sound so special. Yes, everything important was present and correct, and the overall sound was very good, and if we hadn't been spoiled by what we'd just heard previously, we'd likely have acknowledged the stock cable as being really rather good.
The trouble was, though, that there was something missing (even though you could hear the cable's undoubted sonic potential, it was quite obviously being somewhat 'held in check') - and that 'something' was precisely what transforms a system from producing merely good music, to GREAT music: music which transcends the status of simply being a recording, into becoming a near-'living and breathing' live entity; music that makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and gives you goose bumps, compared with hearing the same music, which only succeeds in involving you on a superficial, rather than on a soulful and deeply emotional one. In short, what was heard was the difference between being as 'real' as it can possibly get, when listening to vinyl records on a hi-fi system, and listening to an inferior facsimile of that experience.
However, there was no 'voodoo magic' happening here; but rather simply the result of achieving increased resolution, through improved signal transfer and a subjective, but entirely perceptible, subsequent reduction in noise and distortion - and thus one was genuinely hearing more of what was always present on the vinyl recording itself, and the musical information from that Martin's and my turntable were intrinsically capable of reproducing, which before, with the 'inferior' connectors in use, wasn't being allowed to be fully realised. It was really as simple as that.
Therefore, what was proven to our ears, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that with any good cable, not only is the material choice and construction very important, and how this is all executed (and Yannis has excelled here, with some lateral thinking and the clever use and combination of various materials), but that a significant proportion of the sonic benefits gained by those design principles, can be lost by the use of inappropriate/inferior connectors.
I suspect "inferior", due to the all-metal construction of the supplied samples failing to address the effect of eddy currents, as I detailed earlier in a link to the WBT website, where the different construction of the 0102 Ag and 0110 Ag plugs were described. I've heard this effect before, and I'm glad that I successfully demonstrated it to both Mike and Martin, who were present during the comparison. The scary thought now is that this amazing cable may even get better with further use!! :drool:
So where does all this take us, then?
Well, right back to the beginning of this thread, and to its title... Only now, in response to the question of: 'Could this be a giant-killing tonearm cable?', I can answer with an affirmative 'YES', whether it be the entry-level 428 Phono, from Yannis, or his quite exquisite sounding 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech DIN and Eichmann connectors). Both cables perform at a sonic level far in excess of their respective price tags, which was the whole purpose of this exercise.
Make no mistake, however, that the latter is something very special indeed, and will almost certainly unlock the true sonic potential of any high-quality turntable and cartridge, at no more than a mid-market price, in the world of specialist and 'big name' commercial tonearm cables. We love championing 'giant-killer' products here on AoS, especially with boutique items from specialist manufacturers, where the concept of achieving the highest sound-per-pound value, always reigns supreme :)
The question is now, can the SPD-4 raise the bar even further?? Stay tuned, folks, to find out!! :cool:
To order any of the above cables, or for more info, please contact Yannis at: info@back-promo.co.uk
Marco.
Very nicely put, Marco. It's hard to describe that moment when we swapped the Dynavector arm cable out for the Furutech/Eichmann 423.5 Phono Litz cable, largely because when our systems reach a certain level of fidelity we expect only very small incremental changes even from a fairly expensive component upgrade.
What I was faced with here was an extraordinary level of further insight into the music - for a mere few hundred Pounds (in the context of my system). No wonder I felt a little speechless and was maybe even dribbling a little...
We went back and forth several times to check our findings, but it was always the same. That cable is without doubt one of the single best 'moments' in reproduction I've experienced for a good long time.
So hurry up and tell me what the SPD-4 is like, Marco, as my wallet is ready to drop money on a 'special' 423.5 :)
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 08:58
What did you think of the Greek tonearm cables, Mike, in comparison with the the Furutech and Martin's Dynavector?
I'll summarise, after you've posted your thoughts :)
Marco.
I was in 'receptive mode', getting used to types of kit I don't have being done in ways I can't with my current kit.
No doubt 'The Greek' with the top end connectors was the very top. Still amazes me that bits of wire can do so much. The difference earthing the SUT was stunning. The sound from the system was as naked as I have ever heard with one of my favourite albums, Kokomo being shown to have been made very badly. Live these guys were wonderful.
The only downside to this is that I need to go looking and listening and earning some money to pay for it all
:)
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 09:36
After reading Marco's full post I now realise it wasn't just me that was staggered what these cables were doing.
Courtesy of this forum I'm filling out my knowledge of hifi where there have been previously some large holes
Being relatively new I didn't realise this was a sea change of large proportions
RobbieGong
21-05-2012, 11:30
Absolutely amazing read and findings you guys, 10 out of 10 for doing this for us :) Just one question, is it easy to fit one of these things ? Are we talking re-wiring the tonearm ? I have the normal MK5g phono's so a bit naive to this type of cable upgrade - Thanks :)
Wakefield Turntables
21-05-2012, 11:32
The question is now, can the SPD-4 raise the bar even further?? Stay tuned, folks, to find out!! :cool:
Marco.
The answer is YES! I would also like to say that I mirror Marco's findings but the SPD-4 is something else.
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