View Full Version : Could this be a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?
kininigin
21-05-2012, 13:24
I really didn't know what to expect when the cable was subjected to the full scrutiny of Martin's uber-revealing and very carefully assembled high-end system.
Marco.
So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?
I guess it would allow you to hear the best from the rest of the chain if they are upto it?
Have i just answered my own question? :lol:
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 13:33
So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?
Doubt it.
The difference was *large*
I've got a Naim Nait 2 and some Kans we could try it on when Marco comes to my place.
Could even plug it into an Arcam Amp and TDL speakers.
The answer may be more than academic
kininigin
21-05-2012, 13:38
I've got a Naim Nait 2 and some Kans we could try it on when Marco comes to my place.
Could even plug it into an Arcam Amp and TDL speakers.
That would be interesting to see the results,in a more 'real world' system as it were.
I'm not in the market for a new cable at the moment anyway,just curious!
So would this cable be wasted on anything less than ''uber-revealing''?
I don't think so. These changes are likely to come through on any decent system.
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 13:45
That would be interesting to see the results,in a more 'real world' system as it were.
I'm not in the market for a new cable at the moment anyway,just curious!
I've got a variety of upgraded and not used kit I really should sell.
Would be useful to test out particular bits like this.
The very bottom end is probably a RAVE amp and speakers, then the Arcam and TDLs.
Have a Nait 2, 3, Kans and Saras and other bits
Wakefield Turntables
21-05-2012, 14:21
I've got a variety of upgraded and not used kit I really should sell.
Would be useful to test out particular bits like this.
The very bottom end is probably a RAVE amp and speakers, then the Arcam and TDLs.
Have a Nait 2, 3, Kans and Saras and other bits
The cable wont be wasted on your system, flog some of your stuff and buy one, you can always sell it on.
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 14:29
The cable wont be wasted on your system, flog some of your stuff and buy one, you can always sell it on.
My main system can't take it !
Not as it stands anyway.
Naim Aro / LP12
but I'm going to have a look underneath again to see if it might........
:)
If you have an Aro then you cannot use this cable (as it is) - simple as that I'm afraid. I have an Aro, I have full technical drawings for the Aro, I've set them up loads - in short, I know the Aro very well. If you send the Aro wiring loom to this cable chap he may well be able to custom fit the small multi-pin Aro connector to his cable - I don't know. If you d follow this course I would make sure that the end cable is not more rigid than the standard Aro cable as this would make dressing of the cable and suspension setup on the LP12 a right royal PITA.
MikeMusic
21-05-2012, 15:00
If you have an Aro then you cannot use this cable (as it is) - simple as that I'm afraid. I have an Aro, I have full technical drawings for the Aro, I've set them up loads - in short, I know the Aro very well. If you send the Aro wiring loom to this cable chap he may well be able to custom fit the small multi-pin Aro connector to his cable - I don't know. If you d follow this course I would make sure that the end cable is not more rigid than the standard Aro cable as this would make dressing of the cable and suspension setup on the LP12 a right royal PITA.
Thanks. Saves me looking.
I'll concentrate on doing easy things
:)
Wakefield Turntables
21-05-2012, 16:40
My main system can't take it !
Not as it stands anyway.
Naim Aro / LP12
but I'm going to have a look underneath again to see if it might........
:)
MMMmmmm that makes for an interesting comparison. I have a LP12 as well, its been stuffed in the attic for the last 2 years. :lol: You would probably notice differing outcomes from Yannis's cable on a belt driven system when compared to DD (just another variable to throw into the mix!). It would be nice to see how the cable effects the sonics of a LP12, now it looks like we'll never know. ;)
All you have to do is find an LP12 fitted with an arm other than the Aro (Ittok, Ekos, Basik etc).
While fiddling with Marco's deck and Ortofon SUT (step-up transformer) on Saturday, I happened to touch one of the silver transformer housings and got hum. We realised that the SUT was not being earthed from the interconnect screens but was independently earthed via its earth wire. Connecting that to my phono amp's earth terminal made a substantial improvement to dynamics and lowering of the noise floor.
So tonight, while reconnecting my system, I earthed my Choir Audio SUT in the same way. I've just discovered an improvement in focus and a further lowering of noise floor!
The lesson is: even if you have no hum, your earthing arrangements may not be optimal. I star earth my turntable, arm and now SUT separately to the phono amp's earth terminal, which then goes back to mains earth. You might all want to check your earthing arrangements :)
Yes, I do (not my SUT because I don't use one, but my deck, arm and phonostage. I would agree that even quite subtle differences to ones earthing arrangements can have quite a profound effect.
Nice one on the SUT earthing, Martin. It was amazing the difference it make doing it to my SUT, on Saturday, so I'm glad that you got a similar result!
So hurry up and tell me what the SPD-4 is like, Marco, as my wallet is ready to drop money on a 'special' 423.5 :)
Yannis has been in touch, and the SPD-4 will be shipped on Wednesday, which means it should be with me for the end of next week... Can you keep your suspenders on until then? :D
Marco.
I like the idea of star earthing and have such an arrangement in my own system.
Attention to earthing can make an enormous difference. Dare I say it, but it can make as much of a difference as changing cables. :sofa:
Phew! - You let me off lightly there Marco. I was expecting you to berate me over my views on interconnects.
I am in the processs of assembling a tone arm cable for my Breuer arm, which has been in retirement for far too long, but whose cable was never of the highest quality (unlike the arm itself).
When I'm done, I'll post some photos and details.
Looking forward to it. Tabatha has asked if you could run the final design past her, as she wants to be the first to scrutinise your new 'snake' ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
21-05-2012, 19:33
I wonder how my Graham IC70 would compare to this cable :scratch:
MikeMusic
22-05-2012, 06:37
MMMmmmm that makes for an interesting comparison. I have a LP12 as well, its been stuffed in the attic for the last 2 years. :lol: You would probably notice differing outcomes from Yannis's cable on a belt driven system when compared to DD (just another variable to throw into the mix!). It would be nice to see how the cable effects the sonics of a LP12, now it looks like we'll never know. ;)
Did you compare the LP12 with the Technics directly ?
MikeMusic
22-05-2012, 06:49
While fiddling with Marco's deck and Ortofon SUT (step-up transformer) on Saturday, I happened to touch one of the silver transformer housings and got hum. We realised that the SUT was not being earthed from the interconnect screens but was independently earthed via its earth wire. Connecting that to my phono amp's earth terminal made a substantial improvement to dynamics and lowering of the noise floor.
So tonight, while reconnecting my system, I earthed my Choir Audio SUT in the same way. I've just discovered an improvement in focus and a further lowering of noise floor!
The lesson is: even if you have no hum, your earthing arrangements may not be optimal. I star earth my turntable, arm and now SUT separately to the phono amp's earth terminal, which then goes back to mains earth. You might all want to check your earthing arrangements :)
That was one on the most surprising things I've ever heard in hifi. The improvement was like an upgrade of £100s.
There were two significant sound improvements while my house was being refurbed, we were still living in part of it.
I noticed a big improvement one evening - from the previous so a big difference.
I found the sparky and asked what he had done. Both times earth improvements.
Think there was a third where he changed one breaker for a larger more modern one.
You wonder what more can be done for just a few quid
IAttention to earthing can make an enormous difference. Dare I say it, but it can make as much of a difference as changing cables. :sofa:
Actually, you are spot on - in fact, I would say the change can be very much like that of changing cables. I was listening to a new interconnect last night and I also tried a slightly different grounding configuration - the sound impact of both was very similar indeed.
I totally agree, as it's also been the results of my experience.
Going back to the 423.5 Phono cable... This thing is getting better and better, the more it's being used, and pulling subtle details out of the mix, which I've never heard before, on albums I've owned for years, and which thought that I knew inside out...
Talk about rediscovering your record collection! :eek:
Marco.
I'll give it a week and then I'm ordering one!!
By the way, what is Yannis' lead time?
Have either of you ever thought to try a Mark grant HD cable shoehorned into a cardas mini-din? I believe Mark has done it successfully, although I suspect it's a nightmare to bend :)
Wakefield Turntables
22-05-2012, 16:43
Did you compare the LP12 with the Technics directly ?
Yes I used to have my 1210 sitting next door to my LP12 (which I still own), and to put it quite frankly the 1210 pissed all over the LP12, this is when the 1210 was a stock deck and the LP12 had about £3K of upgrades.
You must have bought the wrong upgrades then
Wakefield Turntables
22-05-2012, 18:14
You must have bought the wrong upgrades then
Probably but that still dosent change my mind the LP12 is $hit and shall never grace my listening room again. :ner:
I'll give it a week and then I'm ordering one!!
By the way, what is Yannis' lead time?
About a week, mate, and then about another, for it to arrive from Greece :)
Marco.
Probably but that still dosent change my mind the LP12 is $hit and shall never grace my listening room again. :ner:
I'm not the biggest fan of the LP12, but it's definitely not shit. Have you heard one, Andy, with the Audioflat mods?
Those raise the performance bar quite considerably.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
22-05-2012, 20:02
I'm not the biggest fan of the LP12, but it's definitely not shit. Have you heard one, Andy, with the Audioflat mods?
Those raise the performance bar quite considerably.
Marco.
No cant say that I have & no disrespect to Audioflat mods but I dont EVER want to go back to anything with belt drives or sprung suspension. It's DD for me all the way, far too much "magic" lets say in how they are set up. With DD its nice, simple, predicatable, and produces sonix far superior to belt drive, IMHO.
Wakefield Turntables
22-05-2012, 20:08
just to get back on topic. I think I'm going to get Yannis to make some balanced interconnects for my ATC speakers. This tonearm cable just gets better. I'm going to see what he can do to lower capacitance, impedence to as low as possible and mechanically dampen them as much as possible, whilst providing max RFI & EMI protection. .I'll probably plump for the same super pure silver and have Furutech bling added!! :D:D:cool:
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 06:33
Yes I used to have my 1210 sitting next door to my LP12 (which I still own), and to put it quite frankly the 1210 pissed all over the LP12, this is when the 1210 was a stock deck and the LP12 had about £3K of upgrades.
Ouch
Mike, you have to understand that a Linn supplied LP12 has a definite sound all its own. In fairness to Linn, the tonal aberrations (fruity bass, vague imaging and ill defined treble timbres) have been substantially tamed over the forty years of its life to the point where lovers of the 80's LP12 "sound" seem to dislike the current, more neutral flavouring. You've already gone against the grain by using an ARO, which has the potential to remove the plump and often ill defined boom of the typical Ittok and Ekos setup, together with the brash, "clanky" and tinkly sound these latter arms can have with the wrong cartridges fitted.
Put it this way, even the early pre-quartz Techies can sound outstandly good with sub 2g tracking cartridges (no SPU's here :)), as long as the siting is attended to (VERY important).
Sorry, Dave - missed this...
Have either of you ever thought to try a Mark grant HD cable shoehorned into a cardas mini-din?
Nope, but it would defeat the purpose of what we're achieving here, as the MG is not a solid-silver cable. In this particular application, we like the sound of solid silver, or silver litz :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 07:42
Mike, you have to understand that a Linn supplied LP12 has a definite sound all its own. In fairness to Linn, the tonal aberrations (fruity bass, vague imaging and ill defined treble timbres) have been substantially tamed over the forty years of its life to the point where lovers of the 80's LP12 "sound" seem to dislike the current, more neutral flavouring. You've already gone against the grain by using an ARO, which has the potential to remove the plump and often ill defined boom of the typical Ittok and Ekos setup, together with the brash, "clanky" and tinkly sound these latter arms can have with the wrong cartridges fitted.
Put it this way, even the early pre-quartz Techies can sound outstandly good with sub 2g tracking cartridges (no SPU's here :)), as long as the siting is attended to (VERY important).
I got over my love of 'bass' via tape on my reel to reels when I realised it was wrong. I'm happy to try any sensibly priced piece of kit to allow more music to escape.
If that means upgrading the LP12, fine.
If it means turning to the dark side :)
and going to Technics then minor PITA, but I can cope.
It's incredible that I still have my original LP12 from around 1985 so I have had some service from it
(What's an SPU ?)
The cartridge you heard fitted to my T/T on Saturday, Mike. I have the elliptical version :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 07:52
The cartridge you heard fitted to my T/T on Saturday, Mike :)
Marco.
So SPU stands for Surprisingly heavy tracking weight PU then ?
:)
Hehehehe... No, it's actually rather more mundane. It simply stands for 'Stereo Pick-Up' :)
Here's an interesting article to read, giving the history of the (now) iconic Ortofon SPU: http://www.ortofon.com/about-ortofon/mrspu-robert-gudmandsen
Marco.
I got over my love of 'bass' via tape on my reel to reels when I realised it was wrong. I'm happy to try any sensibly priced piece of kit to allow more music to escape.
If that means upgrading the LP12, fine.
If it means turning to the dark side
and going to Technics then minor PITA, but I can cope.
It's incredible that I still have my original LP12 from around 1985 so I have had some service from it
I think much will be revealed, when I bring my T/T over to your place, by whether your current system 'likes' the sonic signature of a Techy, or not.
If not, then you've got a big decision to make, as accommodating it successfully will mean a near complete system change. If that's not the case, then things will be much simpler :)
I need to hear your system first, and most importantly, understand fully how you like recorded music to be reproduced (i.e. the sound you're seeking to achieve), before advising/helping you, as is necessary.
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 09:28
Hehehehe... No, it's actually rather more mundane. It simply stands for 'Stereo Pick-Up' :)
Here's an interesting article to read, giving the history of the (now) iconic Ortofon SPU: http://www.ortofon.com/about-ortofon/mrspu-robert-gudmandsen
Marco.
Thanks. A long history
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 09:35
I think much will be revealed, when I bring my T/T over to your place, by whether your current system 'likes' the sonic signature of a Techy, or not.
If not, then you've got a big decision to make, as accommodating it successfully will mean a near complete system change. If that's not the case, then things will be much simpler :)
I need to hear your system first, and most importantly, understand fully how you like recorded music to be reproduced (i.e. the sound you're seeking to achieve), before advising/helping you, as is necessary.
Marco.
Yes the comparison is the key
I was surprised listening to my system on Sunday how much I still liked it.
I can take change to get more music.
If the 2 sound *different* rather than better / worse then I have a decision to make.
Sally has said she will take herself off that day, but I will get her to sit in on at least some of the session as her one working ear is stunningly perceptive.
Once upon a time she would always say "turn it down". Since about 2 years ago she is happy at reasonable volumes. I think that is down to the quality of reproduction
Yes the comparison is the key
I was surprised listening to my system on Sunday how much I still liked it.
That doesn't surprise me, Mike. It's a system you've assembled over many years, and been happy with, so you're unlikely to abandon it too quickly - and nor should you :)
I look forward to popping down, as it would be good to meet up again, hear your system and music collection, and compare my T/T to a decent LP12, which hasn't happened for a wee while :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
23-05-2012, 13:11
That doesn't surprise me, Mike. It's a system you've assembled over many years, and been happy with, so you're unlikely to abandon it too quickly - and nor should you :)
I look forward to popping down, as it would be good to meet up again, hear your system and music collection, and compare my T/T to a decent LP12, which hasn't happened for a wee while :cool:
Marco.
Think it's more comfortable and certainly more forgiving than what we heard on Saturday.
There have been times when I wasn't happy.
I think Martin was surprised when we first spoke and I said my system sounded rubbish - as it did. Mostly mains.
Massive step up going to dedicated unswtiched sockets and another when our earth was first fixed. It's improved since too
I want to work on the system before a visit as I think there are obvious things to change that you could see at a glance, windows, furniture, general layout.
As it can take a while to move let me know what heavy labour I can do
:)
Let me know if you want more pics
Guys,
Just to let you know that the SPD-4 has now been shipped (Yannis has been busy, so there was a bit of a delay), which means that I should have the cable towards the end of next week, for evaluation against the 423.5 Phono Litz.
Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:
Luckily, I have a new earth connection (SUT) and two new Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in the system and I can hardly believe the DV cable was comparatively poor, so good is the system sounding.
I also have a new bench pillar drill, vice and set of miniature drill bits. So I'll be busy this weekend with the system rack feet.
So yes, I can wait. But not too long ;)
Lol... I'm sure that your new toys will keep you suitably amused in the interim :eyebrows:
Marco.
Guys,
Just to let you know that the SPD-4 has now been shipped (Yannis has been busy, so there was a bit of a delay), which means that I should have the cable towards the end of next week, for evaluation against the 423.5 Phono Litz.
Martin, do you think you can wait that long for my verdict? :eyebrows:
Marco.
errr no :ner:
Martin has a new secret toy to play with until your tone-arm cable war and peace article is finished :)
After careful consideration and seeing and hearing the wand in action I have decided to dispense with standard tone arm cables in my system as I have never liked the 5 pin din plug and cannot help thinking the plug is so small only really thin wires will fit in and shielding cannot be all that good as it's thin so as to be able to fit into the din plug barrel. Better to dispense with it altogether if possible?
Just ordered 2 x furutech RCA inlet sockets (http://www.furutech.com/a2008/product2.asp?prodNo=358) to mount on the back of my 401 using a metal plate to connect the tone arm internal wiring to then I can use an RCA-RCA cable instead of the 5 pin mini din which is a pain in the arse if you ask me! So from cartridge tags to RCA sockets and then an RCA-RCA to phono stage and the exact same RCA-RCA from phono stage to amp, sorted! TQ black tone-arm RCA-RCA of course. Interesting to hear the results.
Martin has a new secret toy to play with until your tone-arm cable war and peace article is finished :)
;)
Hehehehe... Interesting stuff. As they say, there's always two ways to skin a grape, or more than one way to skin a cat! ;)
Btw, the Furutech RCA sockets are fab - I use them on my Copper amp :)
Marco.
Incidentally, I asked Yannis for his views on the comparison between the SPD-4 and the 423.5 Phono Litz. This is what he wrote:
Regarding the comparison between the standard 423.5Phono-Litz and the SPD-4:
I consider the SPD-4 to be less “edgy” than the 423.5Phono Litz. Its balance is focussed more in the Mid-range rather than the upper frequencies. I think that both cables are quite analytical in both width and depth expanding the entire sound stage but the SPD-4 is “full” and well rounded. As I mentioned earlier, I would expect the SPD-4 to have very similar characteristics with the ones you observed with your version of the 423.5Phono-Litz. So after giving such a review on the 423.5Phono-Litz I am not sure what to expect from the SPD-4. Again, their price is not an indication of performance but a direct reflection of materials/parts and labour.
However, the SPD-4 “technically” has a superior construction adding variable conductor gauge between “send” and “return”, variable strand gauge within the same conductor for lower electro-mechanical resonance due to the elimination of strand multiplicity, and additional shielding features. As I have explained, the SPD-4 was developed to be a Hybrid design (and this would imply different characteristics). However, yours (and Andy's) versions are pure silver, so the result will be quite different than what it was initially designed for.
In other words the Hybrid SPD-4 would be a very musical and relaxed cable (with some added colours that make it more pleasing rather than offering a cold reproduction of the recording) as a result of the inclusion of copper and Mundorf silver/gold; but the Silver SPD-4 is likely to be faster and more analytical.
Also note that the SPD-4 uses dual shielding: a highly conductive copper and nickel coated fibre mesh which is placed between the inner insulation and the outer shield. The outer shield is a high density silver plated copper braid with 97% optical coverage (same as the one in your 423.5Phono-Litz).
Interesting... It should certainly make for an intriguing comparison! :)
Marco.
Indeed, Marco, the ranking order is not a foregone conclusion. Should you find the SPD-4 not to be as good as the 'special' 423.5 Phono Litz, I wouldn't be at all disappointed ordering the latter based on what I heard when you brought it round.
How is the bass now that you've given it a good running in?
No problems at all, Martin - tight, tuneful and extended; really just what's on the recording, which is all one can ask of a tonearm cable (or any cable, for that matter).
However, it's the sheer amounts of detail it pulls out of the mix, which I find astonishing (in comparison with any other tonearm cable I've used), but with a complete lack of grain or 'edge'! :eek:
It'll be very interesting to see if the SPD-4 can improve upon those traits and/or add any enviable ones of its own.
Btw, what are you doing about those heavy metal plugs on the TQ cables, connecting your SUT to your phono stage? I'm convinced that you're only hearing about 85% of what the cable is capable of. Fitting WBT 0110Ag or Eichmann silver Bullet RCAs, would sort that out :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 08:00
Btw, what are you doing about those heavy metal plugs on the TQ cables, connecting your SUT to your phono stage? I'm convinced that you're only hearing about 85% of what the cable is capable of. Fitting WBT 0110Ag or Eichmann silver Bullet RCAs, would sort that out :)
Marco.
Unless we find a way of super heat soldering we're stuck aren't we ?
Hi Mike,
It'd be a return job to the manufacturer. Martin was going to speak with Colin about it.
It's not an issue, though, if you're happy with how the cables sound 'as is', and they do indeed sound very good, but I believe that there is still more to come, with better plugs fitted :)
Marco.
Btw, what are you doing about those heavy metal plugs on the TQ cables, connecting your SUT to your phono stage? I'm convinced that you're only hearing about 85% of what the cable is capable of. Fitting WBT 0110Ag or Eichmann silver Bullet RCAs, would sort that out :)
Already on the case, Marco. I've asked Divine Audio to request a new one from TQ with better plugs.
Nice one, Martin. If you could retain your existing cables, for comparison, that would be interesting! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 08:38
Already on the case, Marco. I've asked Divine Audio to request a new one from TQ with better plugs.
How does that work ?
Can you swap or do you have to buy another ?
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 08:41
Hi Mike,
if you're happy with how the cables sound 'as is', and they do sound very good, but I believe that there is still more to come, with better plugs fitted :)
Marco.
Hey !
Have you forgotten where you are or summat ?
:lol:
Soz, you've lost me there, matey.... :scratch:
Marco.
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 08:49
Soz, you've lost me there, matey.... :scratch:
Marco.
>if you're happy with how the cables sound 'as is',
How many of the present company would be ?
Can't see Martin being happy especially after that open mouth comparison to the super duper plugs
The only thing is the price of course.
Was it £200 a single plug ?
Lol... No, no - nothing like that. For the WBTs, I think around £155 for two. I'm not sure about the Eichmanns, but I think they're quite a bit less.
In fact, on checking, definitely quite a bit less: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eichmann-Silver-Bullet-RCA-Plugs-Set-2-99-99-Pure-Silver-Conductors-New-/230792036105?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Audio_Cable_Termin ations&hash=item35bc46ff09
I'm unsure which are best, as I've never tested them against each other. I guess that the WBTs might be better in an environment where high levels of EMI exist, due to the protection offered by their alloy-made barrels. However, the Eichmanns, being an all-plastic construction (or "glass impregnated moulded polymer", as they call it), other than the fine silver conductors used, due to their unique overall construction, may otherwise be best.
Interesting article here on the Eichmanns: http://twogoodears.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/eichmann-silver-bullet-rca-plugs-among.html
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 08:58
So, just to return briefly to the original question Marco & those others who have tried it:
Ignoring the other, more expensive options from you have tried from Yannis, is the 428Phono a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 08:58
Lol... No, no - nothing like that. For the WBTs, I think around £155 for two. I'm not sure about the Eichmanns, but I think they're quite a bit less.
Marco.
That's good news. Takes them from
"a bit too much"
to
"hmm, too much but maybe......"
Wonder if we can persuade someone to tool up for this......
The moulds probably exist in various places, just change the input material ?
Net cost when producing 1000s must be around 10p max
How does that work ?
Can you swap or do you have to buy another ?
I'll just buy another. Won't have any problems moving TQ cable on.
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 09:19
I'll just buy another. Won't have any problems moving TQ cable on.
I look forward to hearing about the differences
Hi Chris,
So, just to return briefly to the original question Marco & those others who have tried it:
Ignoring the other, more expensive options from you have tried from Yannis, is the 428Phono a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?
Did you miss the following bit, from my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=327893&postcount=245 ?
Only now, in response to the question of: 'Could this be a giant-killing tonearm cable?', I can answer with an affirmative 'YES', whether it be the entry-level 428 Phono, from Yannis, or his quite exquisite sounding 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech DIN and Eichmann connectors). Both cables perform at a sonic level far in excess of their respective price tags, which was the whole purpose of this exercise.
;)
For the money (and quite a bit more), I can't think of a better commercially produced tonearm cable than the 428 Phono Litz (one has to remember that this is a high-quality solid silver litz cable, not copper or silver-plated) - *but*, if you really want to hear what it can do, fit better plugs! With stock plugs, I'd rate the cable as being 'VG', but with better plugs, you can take it all the way up to 'EX+'.
Better plugs don't have to be as expensive as the WBTs, in question, either. Some Neutrik RCAs and a Cardas DIN plug, fitted instead, would do the job, and elevate the cable's performance to being pretty much unbeatable, IMO, in comparison with other tonearm cables on the market, south of £450.
Here's the chap in question again (with its stock plugs): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pure-solid-silver-tonearm-phono-cable-Litz-geometry-Air-Teflon-dielectric/221014738430
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 09:32
Yes, despite spending a while trawling back through the posts, I did indeed miss that bit!
Thanks
No worries. Are you thinking of treating yourself to one?
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 09:35
It also appears, at £130, to be £30 cheaper than the original advert you linked to.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 09:39
No worries. Are you thinking of treating yourself to one?
Well, as you may remember, quite some time ago, I was interested in trying out one or two cables for my Zeta - someone (ahem.....I can't remember his name) offered me first dibs on one, but forgot!
Anyway, I never did anything about it but I'm thinking that perhaps I might try something else sometime soon.
Ah, I see, nice one. I reckon that the highest 'sound-per-pound' option would either be a stock 428 or 423.5 Phono Litz cable, fitted with one of these:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/cardas-53481.html
And a pair of these:
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67_71&products_id=221
The Cardas DIN plug is high-quality, and the shell is made of a lighter 'plastic' construction, than the all-metal '1877' DIN plug, supplied as standard: http://www.partsconnexion.com/1877PH-73647.html
You want to mimimise on metal used, where possible, for reasons discussed earlier.
The Neutrik RCAs have advantages, in terms of their electrical contact method, and lack of metal used, in comparison with the LOK RCAs, fitted as standard on both the 428 and 423.5 Phono Litz, shown here: http://www.homegrownaudio.com/products/LOK-Performance-Series-RCA-Connector%252d-silver-body%7B47%7Dblack-barrel.html
If you buy the plugs and send them to Yannis (or pay him in advance and ask him to buy them for you) he'll fit them to the tonearm cable of your choice.
Hope this helps, mate :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 09:59
OK thanks for that, I'll be looking around for something shortly & if I find something I like, I'll probably be buying another one for the Ultracraft or two, if I can find a way of getting into the Decca!
Lol - indeed! Good luck. If you need any more advice on the stuff Yannis does, just let me know :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 10:09
Cheers matey!
I'll probably be buying another one for the Ultracraft
Would love to know when you get it playing, Chris.
Already on the case, Marco. I've asked Divine Audio to request a new one from TQ with better plugs.
TQ refused! They claim they chose the current connector for a number of reasons including that it works with their cable and the processes they use.
Guess I'll have to get my soldering iron and silver solder out.
The Grand Wazoo
30-05-2012, 17:04
Would love to know when you get it playing, Chris.
I promise to keep you posted Martin. Things are a bit slow on the Goldring project for now though. I'm hoping to get it going in a couple of weeks or so.
TQ refused! They claim they chose the current connector for a number of reasons including that it works with their cable and the processes they use.
Mmm... Sounds like a bit of a cop-out to me! Never mind, if you can manage it yourself, I think the sonic rewards of doing so successfully would be worth it.
If you don't fancy it yourself, why not give the job to David Brook or Mark Grant - should be a piece of piss for them! ;)
Marco.
Nah - I can do cables, thanks. Will keep you posted.
MikeMusic
30-05-2012, 20:15
TQ refused! They claim they chose the current connector for a number of reasons including that it works with their cable and the processes they use.
Guess I'll have to get my soldering iron and silver solder out.
Can you do super high temps ? (Novice solderer speaks)
Not sure, Mike, but I can turn my temperature controlled soldering iron to max and that definitely melts my silver solder, so it's worth a shot.
Wakefield Turntables
30-05-2012, 21:00
I'm listening to the SPD-4 through my valve setup tonight which is
Radford pre/power amp
Belkin silver interconnects
Usual 1210 setup
Heavily modified celestion ditton 15XR speakers
Nordost SPM Reference speaker cable
OMG! :eek: Its the first time that the celestions have thrown a sound stage wider than the speakers themselves, EVER! The smaller speakers have enabled me to make some sense of the bass, it's even more well defined and taught than the ATC's which leaves me thinking they are reacting with my room and giving me some bass bloom :doh: Vocals are slap bang in the middle of the speakers. This cable just gets better and better. I think there will be even more to be had when I get my celestion 44's set up.
MikeMusic
31-05-2012, 06:43
Not sure, Mike, but I can turn my temperature controlled soldering iron to max and that definitely melts my silver solder, so it's worth a shot.
Worth a go for you. I'm not competent for that
I'm listening to the SPD-4 through my valve setup tonight which is
Radford pre/power amp
Belkin silver interconnects
Usual 1210 setup
Heavily modified celestion ditton 15XR speakers
Nordost SPM Reference speaker cable
OMG! :eek: Its the first time that the celestions have thrown a sound stage wider than the speakers themselves, EVER! The smaller speakers have enabled me to make some sense of the bass, it's even more well defined and taught than the ATC's which leaves me thinking they are reacting with my room and giving me some bass bloom :doh: Vocals are slap bang in the middle of the speakers. This cable just gets better and better. I think there will be even more to be had when I get my celestion 44's set up.
Sounds good, dude. It'll be very interesting to hear what my own SPD-4 does when it arrives. What will you do, however, if the 423.5 Phono Litz (special) whips its ass? ;)
Marco.
Can I ask Marco and Andy - what is the spec of your SPD-4 cables? I know you've asked for silver rather than copper strands but what about the connectors? Are they standard or spec'd by you?
Wakefield Turntables
31-05-2012, 07:58
Sounds good, dude. It'll be very interesting to hear what my own SPD-4 does when it arrives. What will you do, however, if the 423.5 Phono Litz (special) whips its ass? ;)
Nothing! I'm very happy with it at the moment I think the next round of mods will come with the tone arm being modified to balanced output and then seeing what I can do with the silver core sut, psiibly changing that to balanced output (and saving a few grand) and maybe getting some solid silver output sorted out rather than the silver plated stuff that's on it at the moment :ner:
Can I ask Marco and Andy - what is the spec of your SPD-4 cables? I know you've asked for silver rather than copper strands but what about the connectors? Are they standard or spec'd by you?
Martin, I've got eichmann silver bullets on the RCA end and furutech din on the other end.
Martin, I've got eichmann silver bullets on the RCA end and furutech din on the other end.
Thanks, Andy. Is that standard for the SPD-4 or special? I can't get to grips with what is standard - you see, if the cable is different and also the connectors, it's not really an SPD-4 any more.
Hi Martin,
No, Andy's cable is a special. Jannis (currently, anyway) doesn't make any cables with Furutech and Eichmann connectors on them as standard.
The SPD-4 I'm getting will have stock connectors on it, as the idea is to compare it against my 423.5 Phono Litz (with the same stock connectors), which you heard in your system, and then see which is best, by judging only the wire (conductor) used on both cables, I.E. silver Litz, vs. solid-silver.
Connectors aside, I wanted to know which actual cable I preferred. Once I make that decision, I will then have the cable/wire of my choice, fitted with the Furutech and Eichmanns, given that I already know what they do (or if it's the special 423.5 Phono Litz, which I'm using now, that wins, then I'll simply keep that and send the other cables back to Yannis), and it'll be job done! :)
Marco.
Is it these
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/443-1228-large/eti-eichmann-pure-silver-bullet-plugs.jpg
or these?
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/442-1226-large/eti-eichmann-pure-silver-bullet-plugs.jpg
just curious chief
Top ones, daftee. There's no difference, as far as I'm aware, apart from the barrel construction :)
You should stock them as, IMO, they're one of the best RCAs money can buy.
Marco.
I do stock them dude, here you go, (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/36_eichmann-) you were harping on about WBT so have you now decided Eichmann are better? I have the eichmanns on my ultimate interconnects had them on from day one, excellent connectors, the photos I posted are metal bodied and polymer bodied and yes you are correct the rest is the same pure silver pins.
The eichmanns in situ................
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/379-937-large/the-ultimate-interconnects.jpg
I do stock them dude, here you go, (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/36_eichmann-) you were harping on about WBT so have you now decided Eichmann are better? I have the eichmanns on my ultimate interconnects had them on from day one, excellent connectors, the photos I posted are metal bodied and polymer bodied and yes you are correct the rest is the same pure silver pins.
No worries... I didn't realise that you stocked them. Now that I know, I'll link to your site, instead of elsewhere, when recommending them :)
Nope, I haven't decided that they're better than the WBTs, simply because I haven't done an A/B comparison. I just decided to give the Eichmanns a go, for a change, when I ordered my tonearm cable from Yannis, and their combination with the Furutech CF-DIN(R) was formidable!
Having worked with both the WBTs and Eichmanns, of both designs, which would you say made the most 'sense', if you see what I mean?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
31-05-2012, 09:28
Is it these
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/443-1228-large/eti-eichmann-pure-silver-bullet-plugs.jpg
or these?
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/442-1226-large/eti-eichmann-pure-silver-bullet-plugs.jpg
just curious chief
I have the eti versions fitted
Thanks, Andy. Is that standard for the SPD-4 or special? I can't get to grips with what is standard - you see, if the cable is different and also the connectors, it's not really an SPD-4 any more.
Yes mine is a little different to t he stock spd 4 as I had it designed for maximum detail retrieval and I wanted it to sound as forensic as possible I want to hear wants on the record rather than glossed over crap. So it should sound very very nice and clinical on your system which I believe is quite a revealing system
I use Eichmann's and I must say I really rate them. In concept they are a simple design, but nevertheless they are very effective. Essentially they do much the same, mechanically, as the WBT's - they have a single pressure point for the return (the difference being that the WBT uses a collet to secure the contact and the Eichmann uses the flexibility of the plastic. I've complained recently about plugs that make gentle or intermittent contact - the Eichmann's always give firm, secure contact. I've read people say that they are difficult to solder but I have found them very easy to solder and in some ways they are the most purist design.
I've ordered a set of four WBTs (0110Ag) for my TQ Phono cable. I like both them and the Eichmanns but chose WBTs based only on the locking collar since the cable is heavy.
Chaps,
I now have the SPD-4, in my mits, so comparisons will be made with it over the next few days, with both the stock 423.5 Phono Litz, and the special version, with Furutech and Eichmann connectors fitted.
Stay tuned for what are sure to be some very interesting results! :cool:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
06-06-2012, 22:46
Chaps,
I now have the SPD-4, in my mits, so comparisons will be made with it over the next few days, with both the stock 423.5 Phono Litz, and the special version, with Furutech and Eichmann connectors fitted.
Stay tuned for what are sure to be some very interesting results! :cool:
Marco.
You have a seriously dedicated postman looking at the time :lol:
Lol - it came this morning, dude... I've been out for most of the day :)
I just wanted folks to know (particularly Martin, lol) that I've now got it in my possession, for full evaluation! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
06-06-2012, 22:55
I just wanted folks to know (particularly Martin, lol) that I've now got it in my possession, for full evaluation! ;)
Marco.
Let the fun & games begin :D
I just wanted folks to know (particularly Martin, lol) that I've now got it in my possession, for full evaluation!
No time like the present...
Meanwhile, I'll be listening to the Stillpoints LPI again tonight.
Guys,
Just to let you know that I've been having a good listen to the SPD-4, vs. the 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech and Eichmann connectors)... Most interesting, as the presentation of both cables is rather different!
More on this later. A definitive conclusion will be reached, as to which I consider is best, in the next couple of days! :cool:
Marco.
If all things turn out equal, I'll buy what I heard and was so impressed with: the 423.5 Phono Litz 'Special'.
So what's the verdict, Marco? I loved the 423.5 special so I only need to know if the SPD-4 sounds better, not different. I'm itching to place an order.
Right, off to do some soldering now.
Wakefield Turntables
13-06-2012, 19:47
So what's the verdict, Marco? I loved the 423.5 special so I only need to know if the SPD-4 sounds better, not different. I'm itching to place an order.
Right, off to do some soldering now.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm must admit this has been a while in coming, come on Marco what do you think???
Martin, are you soldering some swanky new plugs of your Tellurium IC's??;)
Martin, are you soldering some swanky new plugs of your Tellurium IC's??;)
Nope - given up as I cannot do it without trashing them and I need a path back if I cannot do it. Working on plan B...
Nope - given up as I cannot do it without trashing them and I need a path back if I cannot do it. Working on plan B...
as well as in-validating the warranty, re-sale value will be reduced and who is to say afterwards they will sound any better anyway?
Hi Martin,
So what's the verdict, Marco? I loved the 423.5 special so I only need to know if the SPD-4 sounds better, not different. I'm itching to place an order.
Your timing is impeccable - I was just about to post my thoughts! You'll be pleased to know that, IMO, the 423.5 Phono Litz (special) is the more preferable of the two cables :)
I've been listening very carefully to the cables in question for quite a while now, and every time I swap back to one or the other, the difference is rather marked and easily heard, as is, rather interestingly, the sonic signature of solid-silver conductors vs, solid-silver Litz conductors...
The SPD-4 initially sounds very 'impressive', in that if 'glacier-cool' clarity and an upfront and dynamically 'spot-lit' sonic presentation is your bag, whilst still being musically involving, then I've heard nothing better. In that respect, I'm pretty sure that the SPD-4 would 'out-Nordost' a Nordost, as it were. Given Andrew's oft-stated sonic proclivities, I can understand why he loves it so.
However, to my ears, what the 423.5 Phono Litz (special) does is retains the sheer clarity and 'hear-through' quality of the SPD-4, but with it sounds more fluid, adding layers of texture, subtlety, filigree detailing and finesse, which makes the SPD-4, in comparison, sound somewhat 'etched', tonally a little too cool, and musically, a little 'rushed'. Don't get me wrong, much of this will be system-dependent, and I can imagine that in systems which need a bit of a 'pep-up', and where the listener's priorities major on a ruthless dissecting of information in recordings, the SPD-4 would be the ideal tonearm cable solution.
For me, however, the 423.5 Phono Litz does that, too, but with greater finesse, and in way which allows the nuances in music to shine through more convincingly, such that the best recordings are revealed in all their glory, but one's enjoyment of the whole is less of an 'intellectual' experience and more one which stirs the soul and conveys the passion of performers (all of which, of course, presumes such was originally present on the recording itself).
Both the SPD-4 and 423.5 Phono Litz are top-notch tonearm cables, but it's the latter (with Furutech and Eichmann connectors) which is now my chosen reference cable, so go ahead, Martin, and place that order! :cool:
I've been so impressed with the cables Yannis makes that I'm going to try some of his stereo interconnects, primarily for connecting my SUT to the phono stage in my Croft preamp. Therefore, a pair of these chaps (known as 223.5 Connect-Litz, however, mine will be fitted with Eichmann Silver Bullet Plugs), will be winging their way to Marco Towers:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6157/dsc06383f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/dsc06383f.jpg/)
Here's what Yannis has to say about them:
It uses exactly the same conductors, as the 423.5 Phono Litz, but the main difference is that instead of having all 4 litz conductors in a single cable (star-quad) it uses 2 separate cables (one for each channel) with a twisted pair in each of them. In other words, you do maintain a continuous run of the same cable. The 223.5 Connect-Litz has actually the same exactly structure as each of the length of your 423.5Phono-Litz cable that runs between the splitter and the RCAs.
The other difference is that the Interconnect version uses a twin (overlapping) silver plated braid instead of a single one.
A couple of months ago a group of audiophiles from S.East Asia tried the 223.5 Connect-Litz and they were so happy with it that decided to replace all of their top line Audionote AN-Vx and Kondo cables with it. Well, this meant that since then we pretty much work with their orders.
:eek: Look out Tellurium Q! :eyebrows: ;)
Incidentally, the cost of the 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann Silver Bullet Plug RCAs) is £382.00 (for a 1.2m cable). It is available to purchase, by contacting Yannis at: info@back-promo.co.uk
Marco.
Great news, Marco. I'm rather relieved in a way as I already know the 423.5 Phono Litz special since it was in my system that it impressed me so much. Therefore I'm completely comfortable ordering one, knowing what I'll be getting. Off to talk to Yannis...
:eek: Look out Tellurium Q! :eyebrows: ;)
http://www.lagaycenter.org/images/content/pagebuilder/30102.jpg
I see the shield is connected to flying leads (to go to earth), this strikes me as a good idea (not unique, but still quite uncommon).
:eek: Look out Tellurium Q!
http://www.lagaycenter.org/images/content/pagebuilder/30102.jpg
Well, dude, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the listening. I'll bring them to your bake-off and we'll see what happens! :eyebrows:
I've already heard Martin's Blacks against my MG G2000HDs (with silver WBTs). Why do you think he's trying to change the plugs on his TQs? ;)
Marco.
I see the shield is connected to flying leads (to go to earth), this strikes me as a good idea (not unique, but still quite uncommon).
Indeed, Mark. I also liked the idea, and can see the benefit of it :)
Here's what Yannis says on the subject:
Also, taking into consideration the position of the cable I would strongly advise for it to have a separate ground lead for connection to your phono stage/pre-amp. This lead will have nothing to do with the ground lead from your tonearm. Its sole purpose is to drain any interference picked up by the shields of the interconnects. It would only be at the one end of the cable and would look like the one in the photo I have attached. Whatever cable you decide to use in the end in that position (unless it is either unshielded or coax), it would benefit hugely from such an arrangement).
Marco.
Great news, Marco. I'm rather relieved in a way as I already know the 423.5 Phono Litz special since it was in my system that it impressed me so much. Therefore I'm completely comfortable ordering one, knowing what I'll be getting. Off to talk to Yannis...
Nice one, dude. You'll now be able to recreate the amazing results we achieved in your system with the 423.5 Phono Litz (special), when I visited last month! :cool:
Marco.
For more info on the stereo interconnects Yannis does, see his website (which is currently under construction):
http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/interconnect.html
:)
Marco.
Andy,
If I were you, I'd ask Yannis to send you a 423.5 Phono Litz, to try against your SPD-4. I'll be returning my 'stock' 423.5, which Yannis had sent me as part of the cable comparison. He'd actually fitted Eichmann Silver Bullet Plugs on it, although it still had its stock DIN plug, so all he'd have to do is fit a Furutech DIN to it, and send it to you.
I'm sure that he'd do that for you, no problem.
I SERIOUSLY recommend (and I MEAN seriously) that you listen to that cable, in comparison with your SPD-4, just to make sure that you've got the best cable for you :)
Marco.
I see the shield is connected to flying leads (to go to earth), this strikes me as a good idea (not unique, but still quite uncommon).
SME do this with their arm wiring and it does seem to work well.
I've now ordered a 423.5 Phono Litz 'special' with Furutech and WBT connectors (I will standardise on them rather than Eichmanns) and silver plated shield. Yannis is a nice chap, isn't he!
I'm interested in a matching cable the other side of my SUT (SUT to phono amp) so I've asked him if he can make me a 423.5 Litz phono to phono cable. I can then compare it with the TQ that is already doing the job. By then, the TQ will have WBTs on it (plan B is in operation) so I will be able to perform a straight shootout.
MikeMusic
14-06-2012, 07:54
Andy,
If I were you, I'd ask Yannis to send you a 423.5 Phono Litz,
Marco.
So is this the one we call "The Marco" from now on ?
:)
I've now ordered a 423.5 Phono Litz 'special' with Furutech and WBT connectors (I will standardise on them rather than Eichmanns) and silver plated shield.
Nice one, Martin. I'll stick with the Eichmanns, as I like them in that application.
Yannis is a nice chap, isn't he!
The guy's a star. If only all eBay traders were like this!! :exactly:
I'm interested in a matching cable the other side of my SUT (SUT to phono amp) so I've asked him if he can make me a 423.5 Litz phono to phono cable.
Yup -the cable in question is called the '223.5 Connect-Litz', a picture of which I posted earlier (post #359). I'm also getting one (fitted with silver Eichmanns).
I can then compare it with the TQ that is already doing the job. By then, the TQ will have WBTs on it (plan B is in operation) so I will be able to perform a straight shootout.
That'll be interesting... I've no idea how good the 223.5 Connect-Litz will be in comparison with the TQs, as I haven't heard that particular cable yet, but based on Jannis' 'giant-killing' tonearm designs, I don't see why he can't produce some similar interconnects! ;)
Incidentally, how much are the TQ Blacks you're using in that position at the moment?
Marco.
So is this the one we call "The Marco" from now on ?
:)
Nope, just call it 'The Giant-Killer'! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Incidentally, how much are the TQ Blacks you're using in that position at the moment?
£285 for a 1m pair. Mine are 0.8m special, same price.
Thanks, Martin. They're cheaper than I thought...
The 223.5 Connect-Litz starts at £90, for a 0.5m pair, so with the added cost of four WBT 0110Ags, it'll take it up about £250, which is in the same ballpark as the TQs.
So I've no idea why daftee-boy Brooky was laughing earlier... :scratch:
It was certainly interesting when we did the comparison between your TQ Blacks, with stock plugs, and my MG G2000HDs, with silver WBTs. Overall, I preferred the G2000HDs, although I could hear what you liked about the TQs, although what I preferred about my cables could've simply been down to the plugs.
That's why if you can fit the WBTs to your TQs, optimally, the results will be very interesting indeed. I'm convinced that there's more to come from those cables, with better plugs fitted!
One thing, mate, make absolutely sure that you get the WBT 0110Ag, and NOT the sonically inferior (more metal used) 0102Ag, otherwise you won't realise the full potential of the cable.
Are those the ones you've got for fitting onto the TQs?
Marco.
The 223.5 Connect-Litz starts at £90, for a 0.5m pair, so with the added cost of four WBT 0110Ags, it'll take it up about £250, which is in the same ballpark as the TQs.
Yup, Yannis got back to me and I've just ordered a 0.8m 223.5 Connect-Litz with WBTs and you're right, the price is in the same ballpark as the TQ so it'll be a very fair shoot-out.
One thing, mate, make absolutely sure that you get the WBT 0110Ag, and NOT the sonically inferior (more metal used) 0102Ag, otherwise you won't realise the full potential of the cable.
They are deffo WBT 0110Ag, I double-checked. Also those are what I ordered from Yannis.
All very exciting, and Yannis is going to try to despatch the cables by the end of next week. Can't wait!
Hehehehe... Indeed - can't wait for my 'toys' from Yannis to arrive, too! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks, Martin. They're cheaper than I thought...
The 223.5 Connect-Litz starts at £90, for a 0.5m pair, so with the added cost of four WBT 0110Ags, it'll take it up about £250, which is in the same ballpark as the TQs.
So I've no idea why daftee-boy Brooky was laughing earlier... :scratch:
It was certainly interesting when we did the comparison between your TQ Blacks, with stock plugs, and my MG G2000HDs, with silver WBTs. Overall, I preferred the G2000HDs, although I could hear what you liked about the TQs, but what I preferred about my cables could've been simply down to the plugs.
That's why if you can fit the WBTs to your TQs, optimally, the results will be very interesting indeed. I'm convinced that there's more to come from those cables, with better plugs fitted.
One thing, mate, make absolutely sure that you get the WBT 0110Ag, and NOT the sonically inferior (more metal used) 0102Ag, otherwise you won't realise the full potential of the cable.
Are those the ones you've got for fitting onto the TQs?
Marco.
Interesting point re the wbts - their website claims that for rcas the 0102 are better as they have better rfi rejection due to the metal. Foe digital the 0110 are recommended.
Hi Tristan,
Yes, that's the theory. However, in practice, I've always found the 0110 (Ag or Cu) to be sonically superior in all applications (by a significant margin), be it analogue or digital.
The 0102s are a little more expensive, and of course have to be sold too, so it's understandable why WBT would pitch it the way that they do! ;)
Therefore, you can save yourself some money AND end up with better sound, by going for the 0110s :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
14-06-2012, 13:12
Macro
Nice review. I think I'll stick with what I have for he time being as I don't have the regulations mods fitted yet (COME ON PAUL :ner:) or access to a decent SUT I have the silver core on order :cool: Now what will be interesting is if some of Yanis 's IC can beat me Valhalla ICs which I use as a reference :eek: I also think you must take into consideration that my main system is as and valve based like yours. The filigree detail that you mention is all well and good but I want to HEAR what's on the record and not have the thing glossed over by a wave of discolouration. I take your point about the SDP4 probably being better in my system but that's why I asked for that design and not the litz. Anyway it's all good, no point arguing over something like a tone arm cable :)
Andy
Hi Andrew,
Nice review. I think I'll stick with what I have for he time being as I don't have the regulations mods fitted yet (COME ON PAUL) or access to a decent SUT I have the silver core on order...
No worries, dude. You'll love the Silvercore, which I'm sure for you will be a no-brainer upgrade. I'll be adding my final thoughts on it later, in comparison with the ST-80SE.
Now what will be interesting is if some of Yanis 's IC can beat me Valhalla ICs which I use as a reference :eek:
Well, let's see what happens. That's a tough ask, but then again the SPD-4 trumped your TYR!
I also think you must take into consideration that my main system is as and valve based like yours.
Not sure the point you're making there..... :scratch:
The filigree detail that you mention is all well and good but I want to HEAR what's on the record and not have the thing glossed over by a wave of discolouration.
That's cool, but please understand that in no way does the 423.5 Phono Litz (special) gloss over anything. Quite the opposite, in fact! To my ears, it simply does the job more subtly, with more finesse, than the SPD-4, and with less of a pronounced sonic signature. I suspect that this is down to its unique construction.
But then you like the sonic signature of Nordost cables, whereas I wouldn't give them house room! ;)
Horses for courses....
I take your point about the SDP4 probably being better in my system but that's why I asked for that design and not the litz. Anyway it's all good, no point arguing over something like a tone arm cable :)
No arguments here, mate - just intriguing discussion, as always. Anyway, enjoy the SPD-4. It's a very fine cable and will marry superbly well with the Silvercore :cool:
Marco.
The filigree detail that you mention is all well and good but I want to HEAR what's on the record and not have the thing glossed over by a wave of discolouration.
Interesting comment, Andy. What I heard with Marco's 423.5 'special' in my system was a combination of great wealth of detail within a fantastic (and I mean strongly better than with my Dynavector cable) soundstage with greater width, depth and, intriguingly, height. The sense of a real space with dimensionality was palpable and all three of us heard it clearly.
Now, I think that there is an important symbiosis going on with tonearm cable, SUT, and interconnect to phono preamp; in fact, I think this is critical to success. So in my case, the 423.5 'special', Choir Audio SUT-H7 and Tellurium Q Black worked very well together although Marco preferred the G1000HD/WBT in the latter position. I have ordered a 223.5/WBT to compare with the TQ and get the very best symbiosis I can achieve.
As for your comment about valves, bear in mind that my system is all solid-state, so I'm not sure that the chosen technology is a factor.
Wakefield Turntables
14-06-2012, 14:33
Martin and marco,
Points taken guys. I'm happy with what I have at the moment and I thank you for taking the time point out that the improvements the other cable may add to my system. I need another 3 to 4 months evaluating the new internal regs and sut before I change to earn cable AGAIN :( I have some speakers to fettle and cross overs to build so it would be nice just to let the system sit in a state of stasis for a few months and enjoy what I have:cool: I do intend to try some new ic's and they won't be tellurium based, well not for the SS system.
Lots of love and kisses
A
Wakefield Turntables
15-06-2012, 15:59
I got a mail today from Paul Hynes stating that the regulation mods have been posted so I may be able to give a little more insight into how the SPD-4 works in my system over the next few weeks :)
Excellent, Andrew. Take your time, lay everything out carefully and study what you have to do before doing it and you will be fine.
Interesting comment, Andy. What I heard with Marco's 423.5 'special' in my system was a combination of great wealth of detail within a fantastic (and I mean strongly better than with my Dynavector cable) soundstage with greater width, depth and, intriguingly, height. The sense of a real space with dimensionality was palpable and all three of us heard it clearly.
Indeed... It was one of the most clear-cut, 'no brainer' cable comparisons I've ever taken part in during 25+ years of my interest in high-end audio... The 432.5, from Yannis, is undoubtedly a rather special tonearm cable.
Rarely have I heard another (to all intents and purposes quality tonearm cable) be rendered to sound so fundamentally 'broken', as your Dynavector did. Not to worry, mate, you'll soon have a 423.5 Special of your own - then prepare to rediscover your record collection! ;)
Now, I think that there is an important symbiosis going on with tonearm cable, SUT, and interconnect to phono preamp; in fact, I think this is critical to success. So in my case, the 423.5 'special', Choir Audio SUT-H7 and Tellurium Q Black worked very well together although Marco preferred the G1000HD/WBT in the latter position. I have ordered a 223.5/WBT to compare with the TQ and get the very best symbiosis I can achieve.
I would agree, regarding the symbiosis, although the 423.5 Special pretty much tells it 'as it is', so if your T/T is doing the biz, then exactly what it's doing in that respect will be reproduced in all its glory.
I liked the way that music appeared to flow better, with the TQs, but I could hear the dynamically restricted, rather 'opaque' quality, and lack of 'sparkle', I now (from many hours of listening experience) associate with ANY cables fitted with heavy metal plugs.
If you can do the job properly, I'm confident that the silver WBTs will liberate the inherent sonic qualities of your TQs, adding to the openness, expansiveness and clarity that they're undoubtedly capable of. Keep us posted on how you get on! :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-06-2012, 07:19
Indeed... It was one of the most clear-cut, 'no brainer' cable comparisons I've ever taken part in during 25+ years of my interest in high-end audio... The 432.5, from Yannis, is undoubtedly a rather special tonearm cable.
Marco.
I assumed at the time that this was all normal workaday comparison
Glad to have been present as the music was unveiled:gig:
Hi Tristan,
Yes, that's the theory. However, in practice, I've always found the 0110 (Ag or Cu) to be sonically superior in all applications (by a significant margin), be it analogue or digital.
The 0102s are a little more expensive, and of course have to be sold too, so it's understandable why WBT would pitch it the way that they do! ;)
Therefore, you can save yourself some money AND end up with better sound, by going for the 0110s :)
Marco.
I've just been looking at some top of the range nordost, it seems they use the plastic bodied copper wbts, not the metal ones. Looks like there listening tests re metal vs plastic match your findings.
The cables I have with wbts definitely add a lovely sparkle to the music. Its not artificial, just less getting in the way. More emotion comes through.
Hi Tristan,
Interesting about Nordost... For me, the effect of the plugs is obvious and easily heard, so if they have actually listened, it's interesting that they've reached the same conclusion.
The cables I have with wbts definitely add a lovely sparkle to the music. Its not artificial, just less getting in the way. More emotion comes through.
I concur. That's exactly what I hear in my own system :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
20-06-2012, 08:56
How stiff is the plastic compared to the metal?
No idea, mate, why? The plastic housing underneath is pretty rigid, but no more so than the metal one.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
20-06-2012, 10:50
Just interested to find out if my theo ry in a materials stiffness having an impact on sonic quality
How stiff is the plastic compared to the metal?
The outer plastic is not very stiff. In fact I worry about cracking it when trying to tighten them up tightly.
Yannis is probably despatching my 423.5 Phono Litz 'Special' and 223.5 'Special' on Monday. He's just waiting for the Furutech tonearm connector. Yippee!
Excellent news, matey! I look forward to reading what you think :cool:
Marco.
Canetoad
23-06-2012, 16:26
Yannis is probably despatching my 423.5 Phono Litz 'Special' and 223.5 'Special' on Monday. He's just waiting for the Furutech tonearm connector. Yippee!
I've ordered a 423.5 today but mine will have a Cardas DIN and Eichman silver bullet RCAs. Yannis is a very nice guy to deal with. :)
Nice one, Bernie. You'll not regret it! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
24-06-2012, 11:01
I've ordered a 423.5 today but mine will have a Cardas DIN and Eichman silver bullet RCAs. Yannis is a very nice guy to deal with. :)
Be really good to hear all of these against each other
<sees Dunfermline> - ooh could be tricky
Enjoy
hifi_dave
24-06-2012, 13:06
Mike, you would need a cable which doesn't impede the bounce of your LP12.
Indeed, but that's presuming that, in the long term, he's going to be keeping his LP12! ;)
Having spoken with Mike, I suspect that the outcome of the above will depend on what happens when he hears either my modded Techy or Martin's in his own system :)
Marco.
Wouldn't cable stiffness have a small impact on non suspended decks too, a stiff cable thereby bypassing those often expensive feet one fits to these things? Maybe if it was carefully dressed/looped between deck and phono stage it wouldn't matter?
Mike, you would need a cable which doesn't impede the bounce of your LP12.
I think Mike has a new vinyl spinner that IMHO will trounce an LP12 when fully fettled.:)
Wouldn't cable stiffness have a small impact on non suspended decks too, a stiff cable thereby bypassing those often expensive feet one fits to these things?
Yes
I think Mike has a new vinyl spinner that IMHO will trounce an LP12 when fully fettled.:)
In your opinion.........
MikeMusic
24-06-2012, 20:17
Mike, you would need a cable which doesn't impede the bounce of your LP12.
After hearing Martin and Marco's Technics and the affect the Greek cable had I want to hear some more comparisons for sure
I also really want to hear either or both their decks driving my system and compare to my LP12 - as well as picking up any tips to make any of it sound better !
Looking under my LP12 I don't think I have the flexibility the Technics have
Almost forgot
I'd love to hear the Nottingham deck at the same time
I am so impressed with my modified Tellurium Q Black Phono cable from SUT to phono preamp (now with WBT plugs) that I spent all last night going through some of my favourite albums. It has made a big difference and bodes well for the Yannis tonearm cable and SR7 PSU still to arrive.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18595
I am so impressed with my modified Tellurium Q Black Phono cable from SUT to phono preamp (now with WBT plugs) that I spent all last night going through some of my favourite albums.
S'ok, I'll keep you right ;)
:eyebrows:
Marco.
MikeMusic
26-06-2012, 14:30
I am so impressed with my modified Tellurium Q Black Phono cable from SUT to phono preamp (now with WBT plugs) that I spent all last night going through some of my favourite albums. It has made a big difference and bodes well for the Yannis tonearm cable and SR7 PSU still to arrive.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18595
Just to confirm
Same TQ cable, just a change to WBT plugs on the SUT - Whest Phono Box ?
And it made *that* much difference ?
Just to confirm
Same TQ cable, just a change to WBT plugs on the SUT - Whest Phono Box ?
And it made *that* much difference ?
Yep.
MikeMusic
26-06-2012, 14:54
Yep.
Bonkers
What other things have we yet to find out that will make *such* a difference ....
It is bonkers, and yet I'm really looking forward to getting home and playing more vinyl. Speaks volumes.
MikeMusic
26-06-2012, 15:06
Well, if I can tear you away, just up the road to Chobham one evening or weekend I really want to hear as much of your kit driving mine. Say Technics, SUT and Phono amp ?
Plenty of food and spare bedrooms
Nice and close to Ascot !
:)
Done! We'll co-ordinate by e-mail.
Let me know when the proposed date is too, and I'll see if I can make it! :cool:
Marco.
Yannis has finished my cable and it's on its way! Photo of it below. The interconnect will follow soon.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8207/8226999245_a8fdc928c6_z.jpg
Yannis has finished my cable and it's on its way! Photo of it below. The interconnect will follow soon.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8207/8226999245_a8fdc928c6_z.jpg
That is pure cable porn.......................... very nice!:stalks:
Looking good, Martin. Bet you can't wait to get it now! :)
Marco.
Yannis has finished my cable and it's on its way! Photo of it below. The interconnect will follow soon.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8207/8226999245_a8fdc928c6_z.jpg
What no Eichmann's? Thought they were better than WBT this week? :lol:
I'm sticking with WBTs, especially since I've heard what they did for my Tellurium Qs.
It'll be interesting comparing our tonearm cables next time I'm down - not! :D
Marco.
It'll be interesting comparing our tonearm cables next time I'm down - not! :D
Marco.
Don't let anybody see you, 2 grown men comparing pieces of wire, I feel bad enough answering the door with a wire in the hand :lol:
Don't let anybody see you, 2 grown men comparing pieces of wire
My one's shorter than his one. Oh, err, hmm...
Mine has got a thicker 'bulb' on the end for extra girth! It's the chunkier housing of the Eichmanns, ya knows... :bum:
Marco.
You get the feeling that much of Yannis' output is custom and therefore slightly different. He's certainly open to whatever you want design-wise.
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 06:50
Don't let anybody see you, 2 grown men comparing pieces of wire, I feel bad enough answering the door with a wire in the hand :lol:
Hey it was worse - three
Not that I regard myself *fully* grown up....
You get the feeling that much of Yannis' output is custom and therefore slightly different. He's certainly open to whatever you want design-wise.
Indeed. I love dealing with small manufacturers like that, where you can tailor the design of products to your own requirements. My system is full of that kind of stuff. I really don't think I could ever go back to using mainstream manufacturers.
I think that Yannis has also learned quite a lot himself about connectors (their sonic influence on cables), and some other things, which he hadn't considered before! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
02-07-2012, 19:13
i'm so impressed with Yannis that i've just comissioned him to produce me some balanced interconnects for my speakers. I have given him the mission goal that this new cable must piss over everything else he's ever designed. How's the poor bugger gonna top that :scratch:
MikeMusic
02-07-2012, 20:15
i'm so impressed with Yannis that i've just comissioned him to produce me some balanced interconnects for my speakers. I have given him the mission goal that this new cable must piss over everything else he's ever designed. How's the poor bugger gonna top that :scratch:
We wait with baited breath
Got it! I'll be playing LPs tonight. Do NOT disturb me :)
Hehehehe... Can't wait to know what you think. Mine will be arriving soon, too. Enjoy, and spill the beans later! :eyebrows:
Marco.
MikeMusic
05-07-2012, 13:55
Got it! I'll be playing LPs tonight. Do NOT disturb me :)
Come and disturb me on Tuesday !
:)
Quick impressions: my 423.5 is doing that height thing again, first noticed by Marco and myself with the Joan Armatrading s/t album when we tried his 423.5 on my system. Bigger soundstage, more focus, extreme fine detail in the mix bringing forward light cymbal work and other tiny cues. I get the feeling the Yannis cable and re-plugged TQ Phono are working in good harmony, especially as they use WBTs all round.
The top end is a little excitable but I recognise that as 'new cable sound' and will start putting some serious hours on it where I know it will just improve.
Right, back to the music (a stiff test: can it make ELP's Welcome Back my Friends... sound good? It sure does!) "Clear the battlefield and let me see,
all the profit from our victory"...
Quick impressions: my 423.5 is doing that height thing again, first noticed by Marco and myself with the Joan Armatrading s/t album when we tried his 423.5 on my system.
You mean 223.5? ;)
223.5 are his stereo interconnects; the 423.5 is his tonearm cable.
Glad that the 223.5 seems to be hitting the spot! :)
Marco.
No, I mean the 423.5 tonearm cable. I haven't received the 223.5s yet.
Reid Malenfant
05-07-2012, 19:20
Good news for prospective buyers then, the cable appears to be consistent from what has been reported :)
Enjoy Martin, as I'm sure you will get to know your record collection once again :D
Got it! I'll be playing LPs tonight. Do NOT disturb me...
What were you referring to there then, mate? "Got" what? That's what confused me... :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
05-07-2012, 19:25
I'm considering a pair of these with the usual furutech bling as my new pair of balanced interconnects :D
LOL - see post #413. I just received it today - the tonearm cable was always coming first.
I've just been playing Common One by Van Morrison, my favourite recording of him. Several things are emerging: the cable has already lost some of its sheen which is improving insight. His voice is even more real than I've ever heard it before. The brass section has a dirty rasp which makes me think of horn speakers with their amazing midrange speed. Filigree detail is everywhere. Bass is tremendously powerful and tight. This record just keeps responding to system improvements and has told me a great deal about the cable already.
Still playing vinyl like mad and I appreciated a slightly earlier arrival time home today than usual. Next attempt to explain what this cable does: playing Santana's seminal Abraxas.
As the wind chimes enter on 'Singing Winds, Crying Beasts' there is an additional shimmer and harmonic complexity to their sound. Nothing as crude as brighter treble, just more insight into multiple metal chimes with complex harmonics. Then comes Carlos' electric guitar, way louder and really pushing the dynamic envelope. There is more distortion than before and it takes me a moment to realise that the cable brings out more of the overload effects from his guitar amp. It's reproducing the distortion better! Now in comes a keyboard (Vibraphone?) which occupies its own space, lovely early use of synth. Over everything are clash cymbals being panned left and right. Low level bongos come in with the leading edge slap sound clearly audible. Each instrument is in focus, the overall volume level is low except for guitar which is piercingly loud. No wonder this has always been a bugger to reproduce well.
I compared it with the SACD of the same album: this is one of the best SACDs I have but it's a hopeless comparison once I realise that it simply cannot emulate that incredible dynamic range of a good LP, nor can it reach quite the nth degree of realism.
Burn-in continues. Hunky Dory is sounding rather good now.
Lol - I'm lovin' almost feeling your excitement!! :D
A cable upgrade that's almost as significant as a box one, eh? ;)
Marco.
I've known box upgrades give less and still been pleased with them.
MikeMusic
07-07-2012, 08:17
Still playing vinyl like mad and I appreciated a slightly earlier arrival time home today than usual. Next attempt to explain what this cable does: playing Santana's seminal Abraxas.
Bring that on Tuesday if its a super quality version
I also have it and around 8 other Santana LPs.
"Welcome" has some beautiful work in it
I remember buying the first LP, never heard of him before.
21 shillings I think .......
Can't wait to hear this detail
Currently listening to The crazy world of Arthur Brown - and rediscovering it, great album
Bit of advice please having changed tonearms I need a separate phono cable and decided on a giant killer. Having emailed Yannis (who has been incredibly helpful informative and accommodating btw ) I have chosen a 423.5 over the SPD 4 with Eichmann silver bullets but cannot decide on a din connector. The choice is between his 1877phono standard issue or the much more expensive Furutech. My hunch is the latter but ................
Thanks
Mervyn
Hi Mervyn,
Having compared both at length, I can confirm that the Furutech CF-DIN(R) raises the performance notably of the 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, so if you can afford it, my advice is to treat yourself! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Mervyn,
Having compared both at length, I can confirm that the Furutech CF-DIN(R) raises the performance notably of the 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, so if you can afford it, my advice is to treat yourself! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks for that Marco. I think to get the max out of the cable it would be a compromise to use the stock din - so executive decision taken for a Furutech :)
Nice one. You've made the right choice, particularly as it removes the 'what if?' factor ;)
Please report your impressions when you get the cable :)
Marco.
I had mine made with the Furutech, Mervyn, and the cable sounds very good indeed.
My 223.5 Phono Litz interconnect has arrived from Yannis. It's being connected up now, to compare with my Tellurium Q Black Phono cable in the SUT to phono preamp position.
Let battle commence!
MikeMusic
02-08-2012, 09:23
My 223.5 Phono Litz interconnect has arrived from Yannis. It's being connected up now, to compare with my Tellurium Q Black Phono cable in the SUT to phono preamp position.
Let battle commence!
Almost on topic
Greek engineering is more than I thought and even more than Yannis' cables
One of the secret weapons used by Team GB is a super duper bike engineered and built in Greece. Wonder what else they do .....
My 223.5 Phono Litz interconnect has arrived from Yannis. It's being connected up now, to compare with my Tellurium Q Black Phono cable in the SUT to phono preamp position.
Let battle commence!
Nice one, Martin. I look forward to reading your findings :)
I'm still waiting on my 223.5s to arrive. Incidentally, have you had any recent contact with Yannis, say within the last few days? I've emailed him on two occasions during that time, and have recieved no reply.
Perhaps he's on holiday?
Marco.
walpurgis
02-08-2012, 16:43
Mentioned earlier in this thread. 90 degree RCA/phono plugs. On eBay, seller bsulshop has some pretty decent looking ones listed at the moment, if anybody is still interested.
Incidentally, have you had any recent contact with Yannis, say within the last few days? I've emailed him on two occasions during that time, and have recieved no reply.
Last contact from him was 26/7. He may well have gone on holiday since then.
The 223.5s are rather special but I need to do more listening before I commit to writing.
Yup, he's most likely on holiday. When you feel able to describe the differences between the 223.5s and your TQs, I'd be very interested in your thoughts :)
Marco.
brian2957
02-08-2012, 20:12
Yup, he's most likely on holiday. When you feel able to describe the differences between the 223.5s and your TQs, I'd be very interested in your thoughts :)
Marco.
These look interesting Marco . Can't see them on his Ebay listings. Do you have a link for them . Ta.
Brian - mine are 223.5 Phono Litz interconnects fitted with WBT 0110Ag phono plugs and external earth leads at the destination end.
http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/223_5connect-litz.html
brian2957
02-08-2012, 20:48
Thanks for the link Martin , these certainly look the part. I look forward to your and Marcos' findings.
I've put about 20 hours on them so far, there's probably some more burn-in to go but I can confidently say that these cables are quite superb, every bit as much an uplift in sound quality as the 423.5 tonearm cable in my system.
Mine are 0.8m lengths, fitted with WBT 0110Ag plugs and earth tags at the destination end. They are fitted between SUT and phono preamp, with the earths connected to the phono preamp earth post.
Fine detail is released in a very natural way and soundstage width, depth and especially height are quite wonderful. There is a better sense of vividness and knockout dynamics, especially audible in the leading edge of transients - where the chest is involved, rather than the gut which feels bass.
Much to my surprise, the noise floor is further lowered indicating the effectiveness of the earthing arrangements. This makes very low level detail especially contrasted during quiet moments in the music.
They replace the TQ Black Phono cable previous used in that position. I'm still listening and will report back on any further improvements.
They replace the TQ Black Phono cable previous used in that position.
I think that last sentence says it all, Martin! TQ for sale, anyone? :eyebrows:
I'm still listening and will report back on any further improvements.
Nice one. Yannis does seem to produce some genuinely top-notch cables. I look forward to your further thoughts and to hearing my own samples in due course :)
Marco.
I'm still listening and will report back on any further improvements.
Hope I'm not being too nit-picky here but shouldn't that read, "any further changes" ? Otherwise it could be interpreted as a foregone conclusion, no?
Dave.
Well, I don't think I agree with you Dave. I know how cables trend aurally in burn-in and they never go backwards. Therefore, if I've heard improvements since new then I will either hear no further improvements, or further improvements. QED :)
I think that last sentence says it all, Martin! TQ for sale, anyone?
Well no, my objective was to find the best possible sound and, for the moment, I am very pleased. The TQ Black (with WBTs) is still good and has taken place in my DAC to preamp position. However, *that* standard TQ will go on sale shortly.
Well, I don't think I agree with you Dave. I know how cables trend aurally in burn-in and they never go backwards. Therefore, if I've heard improvements since new then I will either hear no further improvements, or further improvements. QED :)
Hi Martin,
I'm happy with that (meaning I understand you and accept what you're saying, no probs :) ). Which then raises in my mind why things never go backwards - with relatively simple components like cables I can see why the initial trend should continue to it's conclusion. But amps and DACs and speakers and such that have an almost infinite variety of differing components, each of which may take a different number of hours to reach their final level of performance, some of which may be forwards and some of which may be backwards, why should the net result always be forward if the initial trend is forwards? - it's something that has puzzled me for as long as I have been reading reviews of new audio kit.
Being honest, I suspect our brains play the major part in reaching those decisions in that you get used to hearing the particular sound signature that you initially liked and it grows on you. Quite often, in the fullness of time, you begin to tire of it and move it on.
Just my opinion :) .
Dave.
I can only think that, at the component level, electrolytic capacitors improve their capacitance and ESR as they settle down. How it works for other components that the sum effect is always an improvement, I don't know. It's even stranger with cables, but I've never yet heard one get worse.
I have no wish to start another Objectivist/Subjectivist type merry go round but IMO a lot of the 'improvement' takes place after the sound hits the ears rather than before it leaves the kit.
Put another way, I think we are all far more susceptible to the influence of the brain in such matters than many of us are prepared to admit. No way of proving it of course, that I am aware of anyway, so we will continue to hold our varying opinions. I'm tempted to suggest that the fact that these 'differences' that we hear defy all attempts to measure them might be taken as evidence that they don't exist, by some at least. Maybe we need more sophisticated measuring techniques? I remain totally open minded on the subject myself.
Cheers,
Dave.
Well no, my objective was to find the best possible sound and, for the moment, I am very pleased.
That's what it's all about, matey. You now have a complete 'loom', a la Yannis, from your T/T to your phono stage. Synergy rules ;)
The TQ Black (with WBTs) is still good and has taken place in my DAC to preamp position. However, *that* standard TQ will go on sale shortly.
It's interesting, however, how the TQ, once 'rave of the month' on forum land, has been quite easily displaced by an 'upstart' from Greece... :eyebrows:
So, if you're using the TQ Black (with WBTs) from your DAC to preamp, what are you using from your preamp to power amp?
The mains cable you've bought recently should also be interesting, but I'm surprised that you didn't just go for the Furutech stuff, which you're going to use on your Powerplant, as a complete mains cable loom...?
Marco.
So, if you're using the TQ Black (with WBTs) from your DAC to preamp, what are you using from your preamp to power amp?
Aha - you're tracking my thoughts! I've asked Yannis to make me a balanced XLR interconnect from 223.5 ConnectLitz to try out against the TQ XLR.
However, it's the Ultra Black speaker cables that I really raved about, and I haven't heard anything better yet.
The mains cable you've bought recently should also be interesting, but I'm surprised that you didn't just go for the Furutech stuff, which you're going to use on your Powerplant, as a complete mains cable loom...?
I have a thought that the incoming and outgoing cables might perform differently and have different needs. I'm fairly certain that the big Furukawa cable from Mark Grant will keep the Power Plant happy. However, after trying John's silver cable from PP to the Ayre player, I was amazed at the difference. I therefore thought I'd try something similar before I go down the expensive route. 6 x any cable will be expensive, despite recouping some of it by selling the Russ Andrews.
It's an experiment and I don't mind too much if it fails.
brian2957
06-08-2012, 11:03
Any more thoughts on the Yannis 223.5 t i/cs Martin. It's interesting that he uses a Litz braid and multiple shields . I've only seen one or the other on i/cs so I'm very interested to see if this works.
Just spoken with Yannis (he was away abroad for a week), and a 0.5m and 1m pair of these (the latter without flying leads for use between pre and power amp) will be winging their way to me shortly:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9972/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg/)
Look rather shexy, don't they?
Should be very interesting how they stack up against my Mark Grant G2000HDs! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
06-08-2012, 14:06
Just spoken with Yannis (he was away abroad for a week), and a 0.5m and 1m pair of these (the latter without flying leads) will be winging their way to me shortly:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9972/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg/)
Look rather shexy, don't they?
Should be very interesting how they stack up against my Mark Grant G2000HDs! :)
Marco.
Where are you slotting these in ?
Hi Martin,
Aha - you're tracking my thoughts! I've asked Yannis to make me a balanced XLR interconnect from 223.5 ConnectLitz to try out against the TQ XLR.
Lol... So, even though you've got a bit of a mish-mash going on just now, the 223.5s still 'out-synergise' the TQs in that position? Interesting. I'd expect things to get a whole lot better when you have a 'yannis loom' throughout ;)
However, it's the Ultra Black speaker cables that I really raved about, and I haven't heard anything better yet.
You haven't heard my Van den Huls yet! :eyebrows:
I have a thought that the incoming and outgoing cables might perform differently and have different needs.
Not in my experience, but you might be lucky and hit upon a 'magical' combo.
I'm fairly certain that the big Furukawa cable from Mark Grant will keep the Power Plant happy.
No doubt it will. I'm going for a 2.6mm core version of the Furukawa, for my copper amp, which will be hard-wired directly to the junction box (no plugs or fuses) containing the incoming 16mm armoured cable for my dedicated mains spur.
However, after trying John's silver cable from PP to the Ayre player, I was amazed at the difference. I therefore thought I'd try something similar before I go down the expensive route. 6 x any cable will be expensive, despite recouping some of it by selling the Russ Andrews.
I get that. Hope it works out well for you, dude! :cool:
Marco.
Crickey- l cannot keep up:):popcorn:
Hi Mike,
Where are you slotting these in ?
The pair with the flying earth leads will be going between my SUT and preamp/phono stage, and the others between my pre and power amp :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
06-08-2012, 15:06
Hi Mike,
The pair with the flying earth leads will be going between my SUT and preamp/phono stage, and the others between my pre and power amp :)
Marco.
Be *very* interested to hear how they sound
Just spoken with Yannis (he was away abroad for a week), and a 0.5m and 1m pair of these (the latter without flying leads for use between pre and power amp) will be winging their way to me shortly
Based on what I'm hearing, Marco, the synergy with the PhonoLitz tonearm cable and ConnectLitz interconnect between SUT and phono pre is outstanding and I'm certain you're going to like it.
As for main preamp to power amp, we're both experimenting so it will be very interesting to hear if the synergy carries through with the 223.5 ConnectLitz single-ended and XLR balanced cables.
No doubt it will. I'm going for a 2.6mm core version of the Furukawa, for my copper amp, which will be hard-wired directly to the junction box (no plugs or fuses) containing the incoming 16mm armoured cable for my dedicated mains spur.
Yep - Mark has already warned me that this cable is huge. Hopefully my 2m length with Furutech connectors will arrive soon and the Power Plant will revel in a low impedance feed.
Lol... Yes, he ensures me that it's a nice 'fat length' :eyebrows:
Should be a wheeze - I'm having mine fitted at the end of the month. As I said, the incoming cable for my dedicated spur is 16mm SWA, armoured (the standard type used to feed the incoming mains for all homes, via the local substation), shown here: http://quickbit.co.uk/electrical_cable/swa-cable/SWA-Cable-3-Core/SWA-cable-3-core-16mm), which then (from my meter downstairs) comes into one of these bad boys, at the 'source' end:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/3617/boisdrqbwkkgrhqyokiqeud.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/boisdrqbwkkgrhqyokiqeud.jpg/)
...and the Furukawa PCOCC-A 2.6mm solid-core mains cable:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9646/furukawa26mmcable.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/furukawa26mmcable.jpg/)
(details here: http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg466.html) Key info: "It has demonstrated 30dB superiority in noise protection over standard indoor cable."
...will be hard-wired into t'other end (along with the Furukawa cable feeding my 6-way distribution block), and then connected to my copper amp with a Furutech FI-50 IEC plug. Trust me, that stuff is just about the best you can buy for mains cable, especially when terminated with these little chaps:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2003/furutechfi5020b2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/furutechfi5020b2.jpg/)
Should be quite, erm, 'JUICY'!! :fingers: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Fat bastard mains inlet versus regenerator. They are interesting alternative takes on a low impedance feed. I'm looking to do the same for my feed from P10 to the power amp, although I can't use a Furutech connector that end as the Chord has a very deeply recessed 16A IEC connector. Mark has found me a silver plated Martin Kaiser 16A plug that fits the recess.
Fat bastard mains inlet versus regenerator.
Indeed. It's an interesting conundrum... I've never used a mains regenerator, so I've no idea the effect it would have, but then I've never felt that I needed one, such is the measured ultra-low impedance of my dedicated mains spur, and the superb sound that my system achieves.
Out of curiosity, I would like to try one sometime, but the K.I.S.S approach with my method (minimise on all 'unnecessary gubbins') generally appeals more to my 'purist' sensibilities... ;)
Marco.
Any more thoughts on the Yannis 223.5 t i/cs Martin.
They're still running-in, Brian. I can hear that new-cable 'clankiness' gradually receding. Will give you more low-down in a few days time.
brian2957
07-08-2012, 14:32
ta mate :D
Ok, things are settling very nicely indeed. The combination of my 423.5 PhonoLitz tonearm cable (arm to SUT with single destination earth tag) and 223.5 ConnectLitz (SUT to phono preamp with destination earth tag) is superb.
Earthing is critical! My turntable, arm (via the tonearm cable), SUT and ConnectLitz are all four connected to the phono preamp's earth post, star-earthing style. Leave out any one and the sound degrades. I was puzzled earlier in the evening as to why the sound had gone off, and it was the SUT earth which had come loose. So even if you think everything is earthed, double-check as you may yield a nice upgrade in SQ for the sake of a bit of green wire.
These two cables yield a huge amount of detail, together with a fabulous wide and deep soundstage with pinpoint focus. Despite the detail being extracted, they are not bright, edgy or harsh. This proves that construction is king and silver need not necessarily be tainted with the 'bright' tag. Frequency bandwidth goes from extreme highs to deep, deep bass. They are essentially tonally neutral with nothing favoured. Midrange and vocal quality are of the highest order, really thrilling with good recordings.
I am over the moon with these cables and can only say they represent extremely good value for money and have very high build quality. Yannis has produced something very special here and I thank Marco for having spotted his products and given them a punt.
Right then, I've been chatting with Yannis and he is now making me a 223.5 ConnectLitz XLR balanced cable to go from my phono preamp to main preamp, thus completing the phono chain. If that gives me a further improvement, then I shall order one more for the preamp to power amp run, and perhaps yet another for my SACD player to preamp run.
P.S. all my cables are fitted with WBT 0110Ag plugs at extra cost. I have requested Neutrik NC3MXX/NC3FXX silver pin plugs for the XLR cable.
realysm42
07-08-2012, 19:35
So your trying these xlr cables in place of your TQ blacks?
Also, the Neutriks your ordering are £2, is that right?
So your trying these xlr cables in place of your TQ blacks?
Also, the Neutriks your ordering are £2, is that right?
Yes, and what has price got to do with anything? Those Neutriks have silver contacts and are standard in every studio in the world. The XLRs on the TQs are also Neutrik, same model.
realysm42
07-08-2012, 20:03
Yes, and what has price got to do with anything? Those Neutriks have silver contacts and are standard in every studio in the world. The XLRs on the TQs are also Neutrik, same model.
Nothing, I'm intruiged as to your decision; I know you don't think high price denotes quality I just wanted to be sure I had the right thing.
Most of the time I'm pretty interested by what you write, hence my curiosity.
I would say that, due to the design of XLR connectors and the nature of balanced operation, cables in general and connectors in particular have much less impact than with standard (single-ended) connections. There is simply less 'foo' with XLR. Therefore I don't expect the large differences I've heard from the single-ended 223.5 cables and I don't think there is any merit in going with, say, a Furutech XLR connector when the Neutrik is so well made and costs very little.
Sorry if my previous response seemed a little terse, I didn't mean it to come out that way :)
MikeMusic
08-08-2012, 08:30
I am over the moon with these cables and can only say they represent extremely good value for money and have very high build quality. Yannis has produced something very special here and I thank Marco for having spotted his products and given them a punt.
Hearing your system a couple of months ago it seems incredible there is so much more to reveal.
Gives me great hopes for the future of my system
Yes Mike - believe it or not I had an earthing fault then and also wasn't running the Yannis interconnect. It's even more dynamic and vivid now :)
MikeMusic
08-08-2012, 08:56
Yes Mike - believe it or not I had an earthing fault then and also wasn't running the Yannis interconnect. It's even more dynamic and vivid now :)
Well it sounded perfect before
So this must be better than perfect !
:)
Seriously I thought it sounded utterly transparent and naked
I'm staggered, and delighted to hear it is so much better
How does this rank in terms of previous system improvements ?
Too hard to say. Significant, but then they all add up to a very large improvement as a whole. Quite a lot has gone on since I bought the Power Plant P10 and I'm just about to start down the road of replacing all my power cables.
MikeMusic
08-08-2012, 09:10
Too hard to say. Significant, but then they all add up to a very large improvement as a whole. Quite a lot has gone on since I bought the Power Plant P10 and I'm just about to start down the road of replacing all my power cables.
Bits and pieces here and there adding up to more than the sum of the total.
Fits nicely into context with Team GB cycling team.
So many other countries are saying "how do they can they possibly do that ?"
Keep making incremental improvements and gain more than drugs !
:)
I'd love to hear my LP12 or a fully fettled one with some or all of those bits
Bits and pieces here and there adding up to more than the sum of the total.
Fits nicely into context with Team GB cycling team.
So many other countries are saying "how do they can they possibly do that ?"
Keep making incremental improvements and gain more than drugs !
:)
Nah, it's nothing to do with incremental improvements and all to do with the fact that our bike wheels "are round, I mean really round" according to the information imparted to a French TV interviewer by GB Cycling technical guru and picked up by French newspapers apparently :lol: .
Fact is they are made in France and the 'face' of the French company concerned in their ads is the guy that Lord(?) Hoy beat to get his last medal.
All good fun, innit? :lol:
Stratmangler
08-08-2012, 13:09
Nah, it's nothing to do with incremental improvements and all to do with the fact that our bike wheels "are round, I mean really round" according to the information imparted to a French TV interviewer by GB Cycling technical guru and picked up by French newspapers apparently :lol: .
Fact is they are made in France and the 'face' of the French company concerned in their ads is the guy that Lord(?) Hoy beat to get his last medal.
All good fun, innit? :lol:
It's Sir Chris Hoy.
He is a knight, not a peer.
I believe that the competition (ie. the rest of the world) can buy bikes of the exact same specification as the ones used by the Team GB riders, and have been able to do so for the last couple of years.
The equipment is important, but it doesn't fully account for the degree of success Team GB cyclists have enjoyed in these games.
It's Sir Chris Hoy.
He is a knight, not a peer.
Hi Chris,
Yep I know he's a knight of the realm :) but since he was knighted he's got 50% more gold medals. Presumably, being the highest ever gold medal winner will merit further official acknowledgement and what can they now offer except a peerage? :lol:
Coe got one for licking a politician's arse so I'm sure Hoy deserves one :rolleyes: .
Dave.
Stratmangler
08-08-2012, 14:22
Hi Chris,
Yep I know he's a knight of the realm :) but since he was knighted he's got 50% more gold medals. Presumably, being the highest ever gold medal winner will merit further official acknowledgement and what can they now offer except a peerage? :lol:
Coe got one for licking a politician's arse so I'm sure Hoy deserves one :rolleyes: .
Dave.
It was this bit that confused me
Lord(?)
Yeah, sorry Chris, I was just presuming the (possible) inevitability of higher honour, that's what the (?) was trying to indicate :).
Cheers,
Dave.
Wakefield Turntables
08-08-2012, 19:38
Please keep to topic lads, i'm actually very interested in the tonearm cable debate and not the size of chris hoy's camel toe. ;)
brian2957
13-08-2012, 15:18
Yes Mike - believe it or not I had an earthing fault then and also wasn't running the Yannis interconnect. It's even more dynamic and vivid now :)
Anyone got any more thoughts on these interconnects .
Brian - I'm not sure anyone else has the ConnectLitz (interconnects) yet. I know Marco has a set on their way.
Wakefield Turntables
13-08-2012, 16:26
Glad you guys reviewing all these cables cos it sure beats me having to do it:D
brian2957
13-08-2012, 16:39
Brian - I'm not sure anyone else has the ConnectLitz (interconnects) yet. I know Marco has a set on their way.
Have you finished burning yours in Martin ?
Anyone got any more thoughts on these interconnects .
Brian,
I don't think you need worry on that score - Marco's finding will very closely mirror Martin's but with more details, or I'll run bare-arsed down our street :lol: .
Pictures will not be posted though, in the unlikely event that I'm wrong :lol: .
Cheers,
Dave.
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