View Full Version : Could this be a 'giant-killing' tonearm cable?
brian2957
13-08-2012, 18:29
Thanks Dave . Are you selling tickets BTW .:lol:
Thanks Dave . Are you selling tickets BTW .:lol:
I might offer tickets if I see a bit more kit that I can't afford ;) but I'd feel a bit like a snake oil salesman selling something that ain't going to happen, no chance, you mark my words.
I'm happy to revisit this possibility after the event, if there's enough interest :lol: .
Cheers,
Dave.
brian2957
13-08-2012, 19:11
Good , my video camera is charging as we speak :eyebrows: you're probably correct though in your assumptions . This i/c looks like a real prospect to me and I await Marcos' findings with baited breath. I'll just go and put the video camera back into its' box mate and keep an eye on Ticketmaster .
Good , my video camera is charging as we speak :eyebrows:
Not sure whether you'll need a tele-photo or a macro lens bolting on it though but you've got time to decide and save up for it :lol: .
Dave.
brian2957
13-08-2012, 20:02
I use a magnifying glass myself mate .:eyebrows:
Have you finished burning yours in Martin ?
It's a bit summery for a fire to burn things in and the airing cupboard just doesn't get hot enough for spontaneous combustion. Whether Martin's ears have got used to any possible differences is another matter entirely though :)
Now Dave, we've been here before. Cable burn-in is pretty widely acknowledged around here. Have you really not heard the effect?
sq225917
14-08-2012, 07:29
Yeh Dave do tell...
I have just received some 0.5m and 1m 223.5 Connect Litz stereo interconnects, from Yannis, fitted with silver Eichmanns (aluminium body versions), which I'm trying as a possible replacement for my MG G2000HDs, currently in the position between my SUT and phono stage; the idea being having a complete loom of cables from Yannis, from my tonearm to phono stage, in the quest for optimum sonic synergy.
First impressions are quite superb, with the 223.5s having the beautifully wide-open infectious musicality and filigree detailing of the awesome 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, currently in use on my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, on the Techy. This cable deftly unlocks the densest of mixes and also lays bare the dynamics and realism of the finest recordings, thus making for a sonically beguiling cable partnership that doesn't break the bank.
I suspect that these babies could be keepers! Further thoughts in due course, once the cables have fully burnt in :cool:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9972/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/2235phonolitzinterconne.jpg/)
More details for the 223.5 Connect Litz cable can be found here: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/223_5connect-litz.html
Marco.
"First impressions are quite superb, with the 223.5s having the beautifully wide-open infectious musicality and filigree detailing of the awesome 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, currently in use on my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, on the Techy. This cable deftly unlocks the densest of mixes and also lays bare the dynamics and realism of the finest recordings, thus making for a sonically beguiling cable partnership that doesn't break the bank."
and you were not getting all that with the MG cable then? :)
aluminium bodied eichmanns, oh dear polymer bodied one's are much better :)
only messin wit ya chief :ner:
"First impressions are quite superb, with the 223.5s having the beautifully wide-open infectious musicality and filigree detailing of the awesome 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, currently in use on my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, on the Techy. This cable deftly unlocks the densest of mixes and also lays bare the dynamics and realism of the finest recordings, thus making for a sonically beguiling cable partnership that doesn't break the bank."
and you were not getting all that with the MG cable then?
Not quite to the same degree, as Mark's aren't solid-silver cables, and so have a different, but equally valid, style of sonic presentation. The 223.5s do the 'solid-silver cable thing' superbly well, but ensure that the end result isn't too 'hi-fi' sounding. They're a really lovely, natural sounding (and very musical), listen!
However, I do still prefer the G2000HDs between my preamp and power amp, and between my DAC and preamp. It's simply a synergy thing :)
The aluminium bodied Eichmanns provide better shielding from interference, in my experience, than the polymer versions, when used in analogue (turntable) applications. I use the polymer-bodied ones elsewhere in my system, to excellent effect.
Marco.
Yannis is also sending me some of his 222-Connect Litz, to try, which is very similar in construction to the 223.5-Connect-Litz.
The difference is that the former uses larger, 22AWG conductors, and the assembly contains two hollow teflon air-tubes, twisted along with the Litz conductors (in order to add space with air dielectic and keep the capacitance low).
Details here: http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/222connect-litz.html
It'll be interesting finding out if those can raise the bar even further.....! :)
Marco.
The aluminium bodied Eichmanns provide better shielding from interference, in my experience, than the polymer versions, when used in analogue (turntable) applications. I use the polymer-bodied ones elsewhere in my system, to excellent effect.
Marco.
I'm really not convinced they do provide better shielding Marco (and I have the aluminium bodies on my Eichmann plugs). Aluminium isn't great at shielding, they cover a very tiny part of the cable and they aren't connected to ground; they do look nice though :).
I suppose there's a possibility of them making things worse depending on the type of cable grounding scheme employed...
Is there? I don't think there is much possibility of them making any real difference one way or the other.
Wakefield Turntables
30-08-2012, 18:26
I'm really not convinced they do provide better shielding Marco (and I have the aluminium bodies on my Eichmann plugs). Aluminium isn't great at shielding, they cover a very tiny part of the cable and they aren't connected to ground; they do look nice though :).
Is there? I don't think there is much possibility of them making any real difference one way or the other.
Any evidence to back up these claims ?
:hmm:
Hi Mark,
I'm really not convinced they do provide better shielding Marco (and I have the aluminium bodies on my Eichmann plugs). Aluminium isn't great at shielding, they cover a very tiny part of the cable and they aren't connected to ground; they do look nice though...
Indeed (and you may be right), but I guess that ANY metal will provide better shielding than plastic, or in this case polymer, which I suppose is why Eichmann make two different types of bodies for their plugs, for use in different applications, with both still being non-magnetic :)
Marco.
Is there? I don't think there is much possibility of them making any real difference one way or the other.
Maybe not but if the configuration is using RCA connection for a 'balanced' input and the screen is taken to preamplifier earth via a flying lead then the body of the RCA plug could be connected to the negative wire of the cart. It could pick up hum or RFI if the field is strong enough. It may not be likely but it would be better practice to ensure the body is not conductive.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Perhaps, but in the case of the Eichmann the return 'grip' element is plastic (other than an embedded metal 'finger') and therefore the cover (metal or plastic) does not contact any conducting elements.
Any evidence to back up these claims ?
:hmm:
Well Andrew, I'm not sure what sort of 'evidence' you expect; you are happy to believe that connectors and cables make a difference (I'm not saying I disagree with this), but there is no hard (scientific) evidence that they do.
I have tried a number of RCA connectors with metal bodies and the plastic bodied Eichmann's (also some with no body) and none of them had any impact on shielding that I could discern. However, the construction of the cable used clearly did.
Hi Mark,
Indeed (and you may be right), but I guess that ANY metal will provide better shielding than plastic, or in this case polymer, which I guess is why Eichmann make two different types of bodies for their plugs, for use in different applications, with both still being non-magnetic :)
Marco.
Perhaps, though inside the plug there is less than 10mm of cable unshielded (assuming the cable is shielded in the first place). Eichmann don't actually make any claims regarding shielding for the aluminium bodies. I've not come across any RCA plugs that have magnetic (ferrous) bodies; even cheap ones are made from aluminium alloy, plastic or brass.
Perhaps, but in the case of the Eichmann the return 'grip' element is plastic (other than an embedded metal 'finger') and therefore the cover (metal or plastic) does not contact any conducting elements.
Its very hard to solder the ground / return wire so its clear when the metal body is screwed on and hard to put heatshrink round it as well, very fiddly indeed.
Perhaps, but in the case of the Eichmann the return 'grip' element is plastic (other than an embedded metal 'finger') and therefore the cover (metal or plastic) does not contact any conducting elements.
.
Ok in that case I would agree but also they would not offer any additional screening unless wired directly to earth
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Ok in that case I would agree but also they would not offer any additional screening unless wired directly to earth,
Yes, I quite agree - hence my comment to that effect in reply to Marco's post earlier.
Is there anybody out there who can hear the difference between a metal bodied or a polymer bodied connector of the same brand on the same cable, doubt it personally?
Why do you think that Eichmann go to the bother of making two different types of bodies for their plugs?
Given the design principles and outlook of this particular manufacturer, I seriously doubt that it was done simply to make one example look 'prettier' than the other... ;)
Marco.
Marco, unless it's connected to ground it's as bout as useful as a chocolate fire guard.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Sure, Neal, but what I'm getting at is the superior ability of one shell type to shield against interference from RFI. Nothing else.
In that respect, it's simply a matter of comparing the effectiveness of both shell materials, in isolation: plastic vs. aluminium. The latter, by simply being metal, should be more effective.
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
30-08-2012, 19:57
RANT ON - DUCK FOR COVER
This discussion could go on for ever. No claim should be made unless it can be backed with unbiased, independent, statistically significant data to prove the claim. In fact I think we should make it a law on this forum. This would sure cut out some bullshit that seems to continually crop up month in and month out. Sure we wouldn't have anything to talk about but it may push people into actually trying to prove some of the shit that they type on this fourm. It really pisses my off when people (no i'm not having a go at anyone on the forum, just the community in general) make claims and expect others to follow like sheep. :steam:
RANT OFF - FEEL MUCH BETTER NOW
realysm42
30-08-2012, 20:17
Oh jeez...
For a shield to be effective it has to be grounded Marco. Nothing needs to be proved it's simple and the bullshit well understood, has been for near on 200 years. FFS.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
My appologies the BS remark is aimed at the above 'rant'
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Wakefield Turntables
30-08-2012, 20:30
My appologies the BS remark is aimed at the above 'rant'
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
As i stated in the post, the rant is vented at the community in general and not anyone specifically. ;)
PS you might want to look up Carl August Steinheil , and the theory behind your statment has not been around 200 years, more like 175, see that wasn't difficult. A statement on a hi-fi forum which could be proved, whats so difficult!
For a shield to be effective it has to be grounded Marco.
Neal, yes I know, but that's not what I'm talking about. You obviously don't get what I mean (in post #526), so we'll leave it there, otherwise we'll just be going round in circles.
Marco.
PS you might want to look up Carl August Steinheil , and the theory behind your statment has not been around 200 years, more like 175, see that wasn't difficult. A statement on a hi-fi forum which could be proved, whats so difficult!
I did say 'near'....You're good at splitting hairs, I was referring to Faraday, I make it 176 years... See I can do it too.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Marco, yes I understood your post, alluminium would be better *if* it was grounded...as it is not it makes no difference other than looking and probably feeling better.
No more comment from me.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
Neal,
Why are ferrite rings (designed to reduce RFI), for example, not made of plastic? Are they grounded to anything, when simply slipped over a cable, in order to be effective?
Think about this in relation to where I'm coming from, regarding the RFI shielding properties of plastic vs. metal on the shells of Eichmann plugs.
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
30-08-2012, 21:11
Ferrite is ferromagnetic, aluminium isn't... Different kettle of fish entirely ;)
While you may notice that cores of ferrite are used in loudspeaker crossovers to generate a high inductance with a small winding, you'll find that aluminium is used to bolt ferrite transformers together in SMPS without affecting the self inductance of the transformer itself.
Wakefield Turntables
30-08-2012, 21:17
I did say 'near'....You're good at splitting hairs, I was referring to Faraday, I make it 176 years... See I can do it too.
---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk :)
ok mate, point taken, your comment raised a chuckle in my listening room. :D
Sure, Mark. I still say that an aluminum shell will offer greater resistance to RFI/EMI than a plastic shell, even if the former isn't grounded.
I also don't think that Eichmann would go to the bother of manufacturing two separate shells for their plugs, simply to make one look prettier. They're just not that type of company.
Anyway, I've made my point now, so will leave it at that :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
30-08-2012, 21:20
Neal,
Why are ferrite rings (designed to reduce RFI), for example, not made of plastic? Are they grounded to anything, when simply slipped over a cable, in order to be effective?
Think about this in relation to where I'm coming from, regarding the RFI shielding properties of plastic vs. metal on the shells of Eichmann plugs.
Marco.
Why not extend the whole shell over the RCA plug, and better still make it from a non-resonant, non magnetic, RFI/EMI reducing material. This would surely offer the best cover possible??
Reid Malenfant
30-08-2012, 21:20
Sure, Mark. I still say that an aluminum shell will offer greater resistance to RFI/EMI than a plastic shell, even if the former isn't grounded.
I'd agree with that ;)
A Faraday cage will work whether it happens to be earthed/grounded or not...
Excellent, and exactly. Let's hope that Neal's paying attention... I sometimes wonder if I'm writing in a different language ;)
Andrew,
Why not extend the whole shell over the RCA plug, and better still make it from a non-resonant, non magnetic, RFI/EMI reducing material. This would surely offer the best cover possible??
Why not indeed? Tell Eichmann!
Marco.
Please, please don't patronize me. Seriously. :doh: The plug body is open at both ends. :eyebrows:
Sure, Mark. I still say that an aluminum shell will offer greater resistance to RFI/EMI than a plastic shell, even if the former isn't grounded.
I also don't think that Eichmann would go to the bother of manufacturing two separate shells for their plugs, simply to make one look prettier. They're just not that type of company.
Anyway, I've made my point now, so will leave it at that :)
Marco.
Yeah perhaps, I'm only making conversation really, arguing for the sake of it. At worst, I don't think the aluminium shells do any harm and they do look nice - don't cost much either (I use them myself); they may provide a modicum of additional shielding too.
___________
Andrew, I'm sorry if you found my posts abrasive, I do tend to have rather a direct written style (though not rude I hope). For my part, I don't expect anyone to take what I write as gospel and am happy for my views to be ignored.
I would think that Eichmann's choice of plastic materials is intentional. They certainly seem to favour minimal use of metal across their line of products.
Wakefield Turntables
31-08-2012, 16:32
Andrew, I'm sorry if you found my posts abrasive, I do tend to have rather a direct written style (though not rude I hope). For my part, I don't expect anyone to take what I write as gospel and am happy for my views to be ignored.
No worries, I dont tend to take offence at what people post. ;)
I would think that Eichmann's choice of plastic materials is intentional. They certainly seem to favour minimal use of metal across their line of products.
This has been discussed before I think:scratch: I think Eichmann use plastic to minimise vibration getting into the RCA itself. I could of course be completely wrong. :eek:
I've not read any claims by Eichmann regarding vibration (and, in truth, the weight difference between the aluminium and plastic shells is very small). Most of the design rational expressed by Eichmann seems to revolve around the concepts of electron flow, eddy-currents, defined conductor paths, conductor purity and impedance matching.
No worries, I dont tend to take offence at what people post. ;)
Jolly good, it's just that I got rather a contra impression from your earlier 'rant'...
I've not read any claims by Eichmann regarding vibration (and, in truth, the weight difference between the aluminium and plastic shells is very small). Most of the design rational expressed by Eichmann seems to revolve around the concepts of electron flow, eddy-currents, defined conductor paths, conductor purity and impedance matching.
Sounds pretty spot-on to me... shades of Tom Evans, NVA, Trichord & other 'plastic' manufacturers.
Sounds pretty spot-on to me... shades of Tom Evans, NVA, Trichord & other 'plastic' manufacturers.
I didn't want to post this, as I can't find the source again, but I do recall reading that Eichmann produced the aluminium shells simply because they had a number of complaints that the plastic ones were too flimsy. Personally, I don't think they are (unless you are one of the sort that cycles equipment more frequently than underwear), but Eichmann still needs to run a business, so they produced the shell, and charge more for it. Given what they publish about the technical merits of the plastic plug, I would think they wouldn't hesitate to describe how the alu one is superior in some technical (i.e. shielding) way, particularly as they charge more. I doubt they'd leave it to mystery.
I asked Yannis what his views were on the subject, and this is what he had to say:
I read through the comments regarding the shells of the Eichmann bullet plugs and I understand that quite a few of those who contributed have not taken into account (or were aware) of the following facts:
Shielding against EMI/RFI works in three ways: by reflecting, by adsorbing and by conducting to the ground. The 3rd way is typically the one that carries the most weight in most situations but the other two should not be underestimated.
The aluminium shells by Eichmann are anodized. This is very important since anodizing is an oxidation process that changes some of the characteristics of aluminium (it is not simply a coating). Anodised aluminium IS NOT conductive (so it cannot be connected to the ground and act in the same way the cable shield does).
If the aluminium shell was not anodised it would have both reflecting and absorbing abilities and would act as a shield to a lesser degree even if not connected to the ground.
Other than unsupported claims by cables sellers who use these black anodized shells, I have never come across a valid point on how they can shield the connectors. On the other hand I don't think that anodised aluminium is transparent to the magnetic fields the same way the plastic body is; and if this is the case it does have a role as a shield.
I am not an expert on anodizing but as far as I am aware the process takes place on the surface of the metal (meaning that its core may preserve some of its initial characteristics and have a reflecting or absorbing ability that offers partial protection from some fields).
Interesting points about reflecting and absorbing with plug materials in relation to shielding against RFI/EMI, and in that respect, the role of anodising.
In any case, I'm 100% happy that the aluminium shells, from Eichmann, perform more optimally than the polymer variety, when used in applications where a little extra shielding is beneficial.
For me, basically, it's this:
Use the polymer-bodied plugs in high-level signal applications (such as between digital sources and amps, or preamps and power amps), and the anodised aluminium plugs in (more 'delicate') low-level signal applications, such as on tonearm cables, and anywhere else where the handling of low-level analogue signals is involved (and the necessity for a little extra shielding), which is exactly what I've done :)
Marco.
If I hadn't (rather neatly) applied heat-shrink to the join between my aluminium Eichmann plug covers and the cable, I would be tempted to see if I could hear any difference between them screwed on and removed.
I have specified anodised finishes before (and suffered many anodising trials and tribulations too). As stated above, it is a chemical process that alters the actual surface of the aluminium and renders it non-conductive. However, the process does not permeate very deeply and the majority of the metal remains as normal.
____________________
You know, if one really wanted the connector to be shielded, a copper tube that is electrically connected to the cable shield, or by flying lead to the pre-amp earth, would be very much more effective. I seem to recal reading about someone trying precisely this - can't remember where now - I seem to remember they were keen on the results though.
Looking at the WBT connectors, they have moved away from using metal in their plugs and the majority of the internal structure is now plastic on their premium designs.
Has anyone tried any of the DNM interconnects, with the cheapest plastic bodied phono plugs available I remember? Surely, if these plugs were so bad, they'd have ruined the fine performance the DNM gear could achieve?
Well, the DNM cables are an entirely unshielded design in the first place.
I really rather liked the DNM pre-amps I came across - but always felt the cables were bloody awful :).
Hi Mark,
You know, if one really wanted the connector to be shielded, a copper tube that is electrically connected to the cable shield, or by flying lead to the pre-amp earth, would be very much more effective. I seem to recal reading about someone trying precisely this - can't remember where now - I seem to remember they were keen on the results though.
That seems to make sense, and if done properly, I can't see why it shouldn't work, and also be sonically beneficial.
Looking at the WBT connectors, they have moved away from using metal in their plugs and the majority of the internal structure is now plastic on their premium designs.
Indeed, and for very good reason. As such, the 0110 (ag or cu), plastic internal construction variety, perform to a higher and easily discernible sonic standard, than the 0102 (ag or cu), metal internal construction variety. I suspect that this is due primarily to the influence and/or absence of eddy currents.
As such, I now find that any plugs which have a high amount of metal in their overall construction sound notably inferior.
However, what's most interesting to me is why, to my ears, either the polymer or aluminium versions of the silver Eichmanns sound significantly superior to the WBT 0110ag, used on the same Mark Grant (G2000HD) interconnect cables - honestly the difference isn't subtle! :eek:
The WBTs and (aluminium) Eichmanns share the same shell material and absence of any conductive metals, yet sonically, perform rather differently. There must be something fairly significant going on with the way that the Eichmanns are wired/constructed, which is causing such a marked improvement in performance...
Any ideas as to what's going on? :)
I should add that this appears only to be the case in analogue applications. In digital ones (such as on digital coaxial cables), the opposite is true, where the WBT 0110ags, to my ears, are superior.
Marco.
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 11:13
As such, I now find that any plugs which have a high amount of metal in their construction sound notably inferior.
It could be down to the method of cable to connector fixing or connector construction, rather than the amount of metal. John Coleman an old time forum visitor until he fell ill a while back did some extensive tests with connectors and fixing methods that were quite a surprise to me. I don't think he was however interested in publishing it online.
I suspect that this is due primarily to the influence and/or absence of eddy currents.
Do you get eddy currents in non magnetic metals?
Just wondered as I have some aluminium bodied "Bullets" but the body is not electrically connected in any way.
Do you get eddy currents in non magnetic metals?
Not that I'm aware of, dude. Try the Eichamnns, you may prefer them to WBTs :)
Marco.
Hi Stan,
It could be down to the method of cable to connector fixing or connector construction, rather than the amount of metal.
No doubt that's also a factor, however I've experimented enough now in this area to satisfy myself that there is definitely also something in the metal thing.
John Coleman an old time forum visitor until he fell ill a while back did some extensive tests with connectors and fixing methods that were quite a surprise to me. I don't think he was however interested in publishing it online.
I don't remember him. What forums did he post on and did he use his own name or something else?
It would've been interesting to have read what he wrote on the subject :)
Marco.
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 12:12
His username was John Thourbalaux or something like that. He used to make those vinyl weights for for forum members on wigwam etc.
He sent me a report of his findings but I doubt I still have it. I changed PC since then. But I'll have a look.
Ah, I know exactly who you mean now. I just didn't recognise him as John Coleman. Thrunobulaxx - yup! Profile here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/member.php?u=86
Really nice guy, but unforunately he had a heap of personal problems... :(
Marco.
Do you get eddy currents in non magnetic metals?
Just wondered as I have some aluminium bodied "Bullets" but the body is not electrically connected in any way.
Yes, eddy currents can be induced in non-magnetic metals IE: aluminium.
Yes, eddy currents can be induced in non-magnetic metals IE: aluminium.
Ah OK, ta!
Do you reckon the teenie tiny currents in a tonearm cable could induce anything significant?
Any ideas as to what's going on? :)
Not really.
Eddy currents can certainly be generated in aluminium and this is primarily the rational given by those manufacturers who have gone over to plastic (acrylic) cases for their electronics (such as DNM). Whether eddy currents can be generated by the typical music signal passing along an interconnect is another matter.
Both WBT and Eichmann state the alloy they use (silver or copper alloy), but neither state the specific mix of metals in the alloy and possibly this makes a difference. Also, although Eichmann's solution to attaching the ground to the socket is much simpler than the collet of WBT, it does actually make a tighter connection and over a smaller contact area - perhaps that makes a difference.
Not that I'm aware of, dude. Try the Eichamnns, you may prefer them to WBTs :)
I've not tried either yet. I was just looking at the cable on my PU7 and thought "Hmmm.. those phono plugs look a bit cack" and was wondering which to try!
Hi Mark,
Eddy currents can certainly be generated in aluminium and this is primarily the rational given by those manufacturers who have gone over to plastic (acrylic) cases for their electronics (such as DNM). Whether eddy currents can be generated by the typical music signal passing along an interconnect is another matter.
I definitely think there's something in it. I've heard a similar effect, although to a greater extent (in that case relating to ferrous vs. non-ferrous metals), with otherwise identical (Mana) equipment supports, the only difference being that one was made from magnetic metals (angle iron), and the other non-magnetic stainless steel.
'Night & day' just about described the difference between both, sonically!!
Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the polymer-bodied Eichmanns, to my ears, sound better than the aluminium-bodied WBTs, even those where the internal construction is plastic? The outer shell is still alluminium, and therefore subject to eddy currents. But then, the aluminium-bodied Eichmanns also sound better, to my ears, than ANY of the WBTs....
Both WBT and Eichmann state the alloy they use (silver or copper alloy), but neither state the specific mix of metals in the alloy and possibly this makes a difference. Also, although Eichmann's solution to attaching the ground to the socket is much simpler than the collet of WBT, it does actually make a tighter connection and over a smaller contact area - perhaps that makes a difference.
I think the last bit is likely to be the most influential.
Marco.
Stratmangler
01-09-2012, 13:41
This has been discussed before I think:scratch: I think Eichmann use plastic to minimise vibration getting into the RCA itself. I could of course be completely wrong. :eek:
You are completely wrong :D
Wakefield Turntables
01-09-2012, 15:49
You are completely wrong :D
So what's new :scratch::ner:
It's a hard life being a daftee (I know) :D
Marco.
Interesting that there has been no mention of the solder anywhere? I think it must play some part towards the sonic signature of any connector?
Some customers must think so as I had a chap who insisted I use Oyaide solder when he ordered some cables last week.
Interesting that there has been no mention of the solder anywhere? I think it must play some part towards the sonic signature of any connector?
Good point. Probably!
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 17:24
Whilst solder is important for bonding it should not be the main surface to surface contact medium. That's why I prefer surface mount components on a PCB instead of legged components that are separated from the copper on a PCB by a solder joint.
Surface mount are still essentially connected by a bridge of solder, more so in some cases.
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 18:08
You are fixing them wrong then.
Whilst solder is important for bonding it should not be the main surface to surface contact medium. That's why I prefer surface mount components on a PCB...
Try doing that when you're hard-wiring a valve amp! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 18:47
Have you ever heard of wire wrapping? Far better than soldering when talking about building a valve amp.
Interesting that there has been no mention of the solder anywhere? I think it must play some part towards the sonic signature of any connector?
Indeed - the effect of all the 'little things' adds up...
The solder Mark Grant uses on all my interconnects is one specially chosen by Anthony TD (something he's been using for years). Geeky as I am, I've actually listened to otherwise identical G2000HDs, assembled with and without said solder, and I could clearly hear the difference! :eek:
Marco.
Have you ever heard of wire wrapping? Far better than soldering when talking about building a valve amp.
Nope, that's a new one on me, Stan. In what way is it better? Have you tried it?
Marco.
The solder Mark Grant uses on all my interconnects is one specially chosen by Anthony TD (something he's been using for years). Geeky as I am, I've actually listened to otherwise identical G2000HDs, assembled with and without said solder, and I could clearly hear the difference!
And that would be? :)
No idea, mate. Best speak to Mark (or Anthony). I do know, though, that it's not solid-silver, but it has some silver in it :)
Marco.
I do know, though, that it's not solid-silver
No shit! :rfl:
Hehehe.... Well, I never use the stuff myself. I have 'people' for that! :D
Marco.
Mr Kipling
01-09-2012, 21:34
Nope, that's a new one on me, Stan. In what way is it better? Have you tried it?
Marco.
Wire-wrapping is where you have square-type connecting posts and a wire is wrapped around them. The square edges bite into the surface of the connecting wire forming an air-tight seal without the use of solder.
When alumminium is used in a cable it acts as an electrostatic shield. When you have a copper co-axial shield it acts as an RFI shield. Some cables have one or the other, or sometimes both.
StanleyB
01-09-2012, 21:46
Nope, that's a new one on me, Stan. In what way is it better? Have you tried it?
There is where I started off in electronics many decades ago.
Interesting - I'll quiz Anthony about it. Thanks for the info, too, Stephen :)
Marco.
Mr Kipling
02-09-2012, 09:33
Marco, the last time I saw wire-wrapping being used was in the late '70s. It's not a technique that's used now, as far as I know.
Wakefield Turntables
02-09-2012, 09:44
I like your avatar but you need to be looking a flow dynamics, not silver plating :lol: (I had to learn all that crap to understand arterial pathology, fun for an afternoon.............not!). This topic is great, but why dont we try and inject some science into it?? Nobody has talked about cable geometry (as an example) or used any examples as to how it can affect a cables sonics. It may just help us to understand some of the things we are discussing??
Mr Kipling
02-09-2012, 09:58
Thanks, Andrew. The avatar developed out of André's "Captain Nemo" comment in response to a posting by Marco. Really had me amused. Still does.
All done on me old Nokia 5800!
Quality... I must confess to only having read it now! :lol:
Marco.
Mr Kipling
02-09-2012, 10:23
I like your avatar but you need to be looking a flow dynamics, not silver plating :lol: (I had to learn all that crap to understand arterial pathology, fun for an afternoon.............not!). This topic is great, but why dont we try and inject some science into it?? Nobody has talked about cable geometry (as an example) or used any examples as to how it can affect a cables sonics. It may just help us to understand some of the things we are discussing??
When Townsend Audio first got into cables the geometry they chose was balanced 300 ohm with foam between the two conductors.
Just came to mind when I went to put the kettle on.
First impressions are quite superb, with the 223.5s having the beautifully wide-open infectious musicality and filigree detailing of the awesome 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, currently in use on my Ortofon RS-212D tonearm, on the Techy. This cable deftly unlocks the densest of mixes and also lays bare the dynamics and realism of the finest recordings, thus making for a sonically beguiling cable partnership that doesn't break the bank.
Well, after all that solder talk (I use Shark 5.5% silver solder, by the way), let's get back to Marco's post about the 223.5 ConnectLitz. I agree with everything he has said, the 223.5 grounded interconnects between my SUT and phono preamp sound similarly wide open and exactly in keeping with the wonderful 423.5 tonearm cable. They bring light to the proceedings, pulling detail from the mix and presenting it in a wide and deep soundstage.
I hopefully have a 223.5 balanced XLR version of the ConnectLitz arrived and waiting for me at work. That will complete the phono sequence, connecting my Whest phono stage to the Pass preamp. More as soon as I've got them going.
Mr Kipling
02-09-2012, 17:19
Martin, can I take it you don't see yourself escaping from ConnectLitz in the foreseeable future?
Ho-Ho! It's the way a tell 'em! It's the way a tell 'em!
MikeMusic
03-09-2012, 09:24
I assume this is because I can't get the window open far enough
Emailed Yannis and ordered a 223.5 Litz. Arrived Saturday.
Connected between Rega Isis and Naim 82 comparing to a TQ
Phono-Phono leads both using a Phono Din Adaptor
Couple of favourite tracks to try
Jeff Beck - Roy's Toy
Mavis Staples - Eyes on the prize
I thought there was more detail, more background information, not usually heard, better treble, especially on cymbals, a wider sound stage.
Broadly a small improvement
Sally preferred the TQ which I found surprising as her hearing is usually better than mine
So why only a small improvement ?
1. Brand spanking new lead not burned in. From memory the TQ was better than I'd heard it before so that is well burned in
2. Is the 82 limiting the signal ?..............
System synergy, perhaps, Mike?
No matter how much any of us here raves about any particular cable, there is no guarantee that anyone else will obtain the same results, in a totally different system. Quite simply, cables produced by ANY manufacturer can NEVER be a universal panacea.
All one can do is buy cables, report what one hears for the benefit of other forum members, and hope that if they also go for them, that what's described will also be what they experience, when using the same cables :)
One thing I would say is that, when assessing cables, it should really be done as a complete 'loom' from a single manufacturer, i.e. the whole system should be hooked up with the same cable, rather than mixing and matching with those from other manufacturers, as the effect of the new cable will be altered (and to an extent diluted) by the 'sonic signature' of the other cables, already being used.
Therefore, if you really want to hear what the 223.5 Connect Litz (or any other cable) can do, you need to introduce it as the analogue audio signal carrier throughout your system, not simply between your Isis and 82, which I know is easier said than done in a largely Naim system! ;)
Marco.
StanleyB
03-09-2012, 10:58
No matter how much any of us here raves about any particular cable, there is no guarantee that anyone else will obtain the same results, in a totally different system. Quite simply, cables produced by ANY manufacturer can NEVER be a universal panacea.
Absolutely.
One thing I would say is that, when assessing cables, it should really be done as a complete 'loom' from a single manufacturer, i.e. the whole system should be hooked up with the same cable, rather than mixing and matching with those from other manufacturers, as the effect of the new cable will be altered (and to an extent diluted) by the 'sonic signature' of the other cables, already being used.
Not necessarily. Let me explain:
A particular set of interconnects might be correctly balanced between say the output impedance of your preamp and the input impedance of your power amp. But that same set of interconnect might be in total imbalance between your CD player and your preamp.
One reason for that, as far as I have been able to deduct from my own cable designing days, is that with no fixed standard as far as output and input impedance is concerned, it is a trial and error game for the consumer as far as finding a suitable solution is concerned.
MikeMusic
03-09-2012, 11:01
System synergy, perhaps, Mike?
No matter how much any of us here raves about any particular cable, there is no guarantee that anyone else will obtain the same results, in a totally different system. Quite simply, cables produced by ANY manufacturer can NEVER be a universal panacea.
All one can do is buy cables, report what one hears for the benefit of other forum members, and hope that if they also go for them, that what's described will also be what they experience, when using the same cables :)
One thing I would say is that, when assessing cables, it should really be done as a complete 'loom' from a single manufacturer, i.e. the whole system should be hooked up with the same cable, rather than mixing and matching with those from other manufacturers, as the effect of the new cable will be altered (and to an extent diluted) by the 'sonic signature' of the other cables, already being used.
Therefore, if you really want to hear what the 223.5 Connect Litz (or any other cable) can do, you need to introduce it as the analogue audio signal carrier throughout your system, not simply between your Isis and 82, which I know is easier said than done in a largely Naim system! ;)
Marco.
I'm happy enough with it to keep it for sure.
It still has to burn in and this is not this cable's permanent slot. I assume that will be somewhere between the record deck and amp - which needs some work, the absolute minimum being a SUT and Phono pre amp.
Wanted to try one and after my experience with TQ speaker cables against Naim I was prepared for a so so result.
'Happy enough' seems a good nutshell description
:)
Absolutely, Stan, electrical compatibility is indeed another important variable to take into consideration.
All I can do is state from experience that, in general, I've always had better results using the same interconnect cables from source to power amp, than mixing and matching different types. Speaker cables are a different matter.
However, like anything in audio, there are very few hard and fast rules to universally follow - as ever, one must 'suck it and see' :)
Marco.
Hi Mike,
I'm happy enough with it to keep it for sure.
It still has to burn in and this is not this cable's permanent slot. I assume that will be somewhere between the record deck and amp - which needs some work, the absolute minimum being a SUT and Phono pre amp.
Nice one. Experience so far definitely suggests that the 223.5 Connect Litz works best when used in the above scenario, particularly in conjunction with a 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, between SUT and phono stage, which is precisely where I'm using it at the moment, to stunning sonic effect!
I really like the attention to detail Yannis has paid, in terms of earthing/grounding, by employing the use of flying leads to 'drain away' unwanted noise. I'm certain that this is a major reason why his cables sound so 'quiet', unfailingly musically involving, and thus allow the full dynamic range of the source components (and music) to be heard in all its glory.
Your new cable should really come alive when an SUT and new phono pre-amp are introduced into your system! :cool:
Marco.
sq225917
03-09-2012, 11:21
Marco, have you had a chance to record your deck yet with that test record? I'll be free from the chains of impending website launch by next week. I could pop over to 'supervise'...
Hi Simon,
Soz, mate. Not yet, and TBH, I don't really know what I'm doing when recording it...
I'm busy until the end of the month (catching up on stuff since I've come back from hols), so why don't we arrange a sesh for sometime after that? We need to get an agreed date in a diary, though, otherwise it'll never happen.
Your place or mine, it doesn't really matter, although I'd quite like to hear your Kuzma! :)
If you need the test record returned before then, just let me know :cool:
Marco.
MikeMusic
03-09-2012, 11:39
Hi Mike,
Nice one. Experience so far definitely suggests that the 223.5 Connect Litz works best when used in the above scenario, particularly in conjunction with a 423.5 Phono Litz tonearm cable, between SUT and phono stage, which is precisely where I'm using it at the moment, to stunning sonic effect!
I really like the attention to detail Yannis has paid, in terms of earthing/grounding, by employing the use of flying leads to 'drain away' unwanted noise. I'm certain that this is a major reason why his cables sound so 'quiet', unfailingly musically involving, and thus allow the full dynamic range of the source components (and music) to be heard in all its glory.
Your new cable should really come alive when an SUT and new phono pre-amp are introduced into your system! :cool:
Marco.
I even asked for a flying earth lead, currently doing nothing !
:)
I even asked for a flying earth lead, currently doing nothing !
Try earthing it :)
MikeMusic
03-09-2012, 12:10
Try earthing it :)
I will !
Stranger things have happened
However, I do still prefer the G2000HDs between my preamp and power amp, and between my DAC and preamp. It's simply a synergy thing :)
Meant to ask you, Marco: in what way does the 223.5 ConnectLitz not do the job in that position?
Hi Martin,
At the moment, it appears that the G2000HDs (fitted with silver Eichmanns) suit those parts of my system better, as the 223.5 Connect-Litz, in comparison, sounds just a little more 'restrained', and tonally, warmer than I'd like.
It could be a burn-in thing, though, so I haven't came to a final conclusion yet on the matter :)
Mark's coming on Wedsnesday to hard-wire a heavy-duty 'Furukawa beast' (for my copper amp), same as yours, to the mains junction box, powering my system. It'll do away with a 13A fuse and plug, and thus will hopefully help the amp to draw more current, when the music demands! :cool:
Marco.
Btw, Martin, did you see my post here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=358221#post358221
:)
Marco.
theabbot
03-09-2012, 17:10
Marco
Sorry to be somewhat thick but how does getting rid of a plug,socket and fuse allow the amp to get more current? plus if your amp is demanding more than the 13amp the fuse will allow what is protecting your equipment?
Sorry to be so thick
Mike
At the moment, it appears that the G2000HDs (fitted with silver Eichmanns) suit those parts of my system better, as the 223.5 Connect-Litz, in comparison, sounds just a little more 'restrained', and tonally, warmer than I'd like.
Ok, that's interesting. I now have the Yannis XLR ConnectLitz but I'm holding back as I've just got the SR7 up and running. I'll write about that in the appropriate place :)
Hi Mike,
Sorry to be somewhat thick but how does getting rid of a plug,socket and fuse allow the amp to get more current?
Fuses in plugs are known, in that respect, to act as a 'bottleneck', and I have heard the effect that this has on audio equipment. However, if you want a more technical explanation, you'll have to consult one of our resident experts in that field. The other factor is that the new mains cable being installed has a larger size conductor core (5.27mm) than the one it's replacing, so that should also improve matters.
We, in the UK, are the only country in Europe to use fused mains plugs, yes undoubtedly for genuine safety reasons, with our type of electricity system, but IMHO, are somewhat OTT when you've ensured that there is sufficient protection (for your own personal circumstances) in place elsewhere. That, however, is not an invite for every Tom, Dick and harry to do the same!
*WARNING* FUSE REMOVAL IN PLUGS IS DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK - your OWN safety must come first!!!
plus if your amp is demanding more than the 13amp the fuse will allow what is protecting your equipment?
All my equipment is fused internally, at the correct rating, as specified by the manufacturer. The only thing potentially at risk in my set-up, is if the mains cable itself was to become damaged or catch fire, which is what the plug fuse is protecting. In my circumstances, having my system in a dedicated listening room, no kids, and where no-one uses the system other than me, where everything is regularly checked, that's very unlikely to happen :)
Marco.
plus if your amp is demanding more than the 13amp the fuse will allow what is protecting your equipment?
Hi Mike
Your basic assumption is wrong. No amp is going to demand anything like 13A continuous. However, many big power amps can deliver some 60-100A peak on transients into the speakers, which translates into a serious peak current demand from your AC - for very short lengths of time. Anything that impedes that demand - thin or inductive cables, poor fuses - will limit the dynamic capability of the amplifier.
...for very short lengths of time...
Hmm...Isn't that what the capacitance reservoir in ones amp is for?
MikeMusic
04-09-2012, 07:16
Try earthing it :)
I did.
Not sure I can believe my ears. Sounded better with the flying earth connected.
Played for Sally, she noticed an improvement - not knowing which was which
I'll try it again as I couldn't believe what I was hearing
theabbot
04-09-2012, 08:02
Marco
Thanks for the answer, I still do not fully understand the logic, but this is not the thread for any further discussion, I will have to find out more.
Thanks again
Mike
Hmm...Isn't that what the capacitance reservoir in ones amp is for?
Yes! (sort of)
I once had an amp that I could physically unplug from the mains and it would still play for about ten seconds (at lowish volumes) before any effect could be heard. Quite a neat trick I thought at the time. :)
anthonyTD
04-09-2012, 11:13
Hi Mike
Your basic assumption is wrong. No amp is going to demand anything like 13A continuous. However, many big power amps can deliver some 60-100A peak on transients into the speakers, which translates into a serious peak current demand from your AC - for very short lengths of time. Anything that impedes that demand - thin or inductive cables, poor fuses - will limit the dynamic capability of the amplifier.
I think Martin's explanation sums things up pretty good as far as the reasoning behind removing as many bottlenecks in the chain' to ensure maximum current capability necessary for instant transient response etc, although it must be stressed that certain equipment will benefit more than others from this application etc.This is one of the many reasons why mains cables in particular [and speaker cables to a degree] make such a difference, however, as has already been explained, the people who go to these lengths are already well aware, and therefore accept that there is always an element of risk involved in the removal of extra safety aspects such as fuses in cabling etc, however, it must be understood and accepted that these people are striving to achieve a no compromise situation through out their audio replay chain as far as physically possible whilst still retaining the basic safety aspects of each individual piece of equipment in the chain i.e.; via the retention of the correct rating internal fuse etc.
Anthony,TD...
I think Martin's explanation sums things up pretty good as far as the reasoning behind removing as many bottlenecks in the chain' to ensure maximum current capability necessary for instant transient response...
Thanks, Anthony. The above (in bold) sums things up nicely, and is precisely what I'm seeking to achieve with this latest mod :)
Marco.
Hmm...Isn't that what the capacitance reservoir in ones amp is for?
Yes, but the voltage rails will droop so it won't uphold peaks as well if it receives a lesser 'top-up' charge.
Not sure I can believe my ears. Sounded better with the flying earth connected.
Played for Sally, she noticed an improvement - not knowing which was which
I'll try it again as I couldn't believe what I was hearing
I can believe it!
MikeMusic
04-09-2012, 12:18
I can believe it!
Not sure I can !
Is this similar to what balanced interconnects do ?
Is one wire an earth or substitute earth ?
I only had the flying lead as I expect to need it in the final operating place
- plus it was free - nothing to do with *that* of course !
MikeMusic
04-09-2012, 12:21
Thanks, Anthony. The above (in bold) sums things up nicely, and is precisely what I'm seeking to achieve with this latest mod :)
Marco.
Some appliances are hard wired, but I think there is always a pull out fuse at the wall
A very thick cable probably would not fit those though except with mods
Is this similar to what balanced interconnects do ?
No, not the same. What you are hearing are the effects of good screening. Remember my SUT earthing problem? Same effect.
MikeMusic
04-09-2012, 14:11
No, not the same. What you are hearing are the effects of good screening. Remember my SUT earthing problem? Same effect.
Don't understand
What does the earth flying lead have to do with screening ?
Yes! (sort of)
I once had an amp that I could physically unplug from the mains and it would still play for about ten seconds (at lowish volumes) before any effect could be heard. Quite a neat trick I thought at the time. :)
You can do that with my power amps.
Don't understand
What does the earth flying lead have to do with screening ?
It gives the noise the screen is stoping somewhere to go (simplistically).
I own a system largely powered by Naim (a bit modified in some cases) and have found subtle earthing changes to be clearly audible and often quite profound.
Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2012, 16:26
It gives the noise the screen is stoping somewhere to go (simplistically).
I own a system largely powered by Naim (a bit modified in some cases) and have found subtle earthing changes to be clearly audible and often quite profound.
Like star earthing a technics 1210 PCB with internal regs for example :scratch:
Don't understand
What does the earth flying lead have to do with screening ?
The flying lead is for connecting the cable's screen to earth.
Like star earthing a technics 1210 PCB with internal regs for example :scratch:
Star earthing is a scheme which helps to avoid ground loops (hum) by having everything return to a central earthing point.
Mr Kipling
04-09-2012, 18:06
Martin, I see you and Marco have been on the blower to Yannis for samples of his cable-knit jumpers. Nice detail. . .
:lolsign:
Although, it would be taffeta blouses for us, dahling...
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3917/taffetablouse.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/taffetablouse.jpg/)
Mmm... My bow's bigger than yours, bitch! :D
Marco.
anthonyTD
04-09-2012, 18:49
:lolsign:
Although, it would be taffeta blouses for us, dahling...
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3917/taffetablouse.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/taffetablouse.jpg/)
Mmm... My bow's bigger than yours, bitch! :D
Marco.
Damn, i looked young there!
:lol::lol::lol:
Martin, I see you and Marco have been on the blower to Yannis for samples of his cable-knit jumpers. Nice detail. . .
It's all in the weave, you know...
MikeMusic
05-09-2012, 07:59
It gives the noise the screen is stoping somewhere to go (simplistically).
I own a system largely powered by Naim (a bit modified in some cases) and have found subtle earthing changes to be clearly audible and often quite profound.
Ah. Thanks
MikeMusic
05-09-2012, 08:28
The flying lead is for connecting the cable's screen to earth.
I'm surprised this feature isn't sold as it certainly improves the sound
MikeMusic
05-09-2012, 08:30
Star earthing is a scheme which helps to avoid ground loops (hum) by having everything return to a central earthing point.
I was aware of hum caused by ground loops and assumed separate items of kit earthing would make it happen
Is the central earth a thing to look at for everyone or just Naim kit and similar ?
Star earthing is generally good practice for any kit - both internally and externally when earthing phono equipment.
MikeMusic
05-09-2012, 12:01
Star earthing is generally good practice for any kit - both internally and externally when earthing phono equipment.
Another thing for to get me more music !
CDPs too
Where do I go or who do I pump for info ?
You aren't going to make any internal earthing changes to a CD player - they are far too complex.
However, what is worth doing with Naim gear is to use a hydra mains lead. To be honest, I would sell your Kimber leads (and the PS Audio) and use the standard mains leads that Naim supply, made in to a hydra lead.
MikeMusic
05-09-2012, 16:57
You aren't going to make any internal earthing changes to a CD player - they are far too complex.
However, what is worth doing with Naim gear is to use a hydra mains lead. To be honest, I would sell your Kimber leads (and the PS Audio) and use the standard mains leads that Naim supply, made in to a hydra lead.
I wouldn't go inside kit unless it was very easy and close to foolproof
What is the advantage of a hydra, sharing earth ?
What is the advantage of a hydra, sharing earth ?
Yep, that's the idea.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 11:02
Martin I have one of these Furutech gold plated plugs on order . Is this the one you're referring to . If so , how did you find it . Did it make an improvement ? Also , is it worth upgrading the fuse ?
Martin I have one of these Furutech gold plated plugs on order . Is this the one you're referring to . If so , how did you find it . Did it make an improvement ? Also , is it worth upgrading the fuse ?
I found a massive improvement through using one of these. Better bass and soundstage. As good an improvment as fitting a good quality IEC. I do find the better top quality IECs quite a bit better than the basic wattgates.
Wakefield Turntables
06-09-2012, 16:50
I can also add a +1 for the gold plated furutech stuff. I have two "ultimate" cables from MCRU in the system at this moment. I have quite a good Alphason solo TT which is not properly set up but i noticed a huge difference when the ultimates went in. Lord only knows what the rhodium plated versions sound like.
brian2957
06-09-2012, 16:57
Thanks chaps , I'm looking forward to trying this in my system :)
Yep, I like both the Furutech gold and rhodium plated plugs. Hi-Fi Tuning fuses make quite an improvement, too.
I can also add a +1 for the gold plated furutech stuff. I have two "ultimate" cables from MCRU in the system at this moment. I have quite a good Alphason solo TT which is not properly set up but i noticed a huge difference when the ultimates went in. Lord only knows what the rhodium plated versions sound like.
I'm not sure I find the rhodium any better than the gold. It's just a different flavour. The rhodium on my power amp sounds too cold and clinical. The gold sounds great. The rhodium works ok on my pre-amp.
I reckon that solid silver iego would be a great iec.
The silver plated IeGO is very good and excellent value for money. Much better than Wattgates of the same price.
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 10:55
tbh im confused at all these cable details.. Whats the basic model before all the flash fittings are added, as i don't have the will to wade through this lot ?
Don't bother Andre, I mean, the supply companies don't care how they twist and weld their supply cables together and what about the transformers down the road? No fancy wanky wire in them.
Just get your stock mains plugs (MK or Crabtree?), get the de-oxit or brasso on them to keep the brass nice and clean, plug in and out of the sockets every so often and maybe invest in a sparky to come over and test the integrity of your mains supply. Do all this WELL before investing hundreds on an expensive wet-dream mains lead and I doubt you'll go wrong :lol:
The Grand Wazoo
29-09-2012, 11:14
He will go wrong using a mains lead with MK or Crabtree plugs for a tonearm though Dave, as this is what you appear to be suggesting!
This is the basic version (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/428Phono-Pure-solid-silver-tonearm-phono-cable-Litz-geometry-Air-Teflon-/221124345775?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item337c09bfaf) with the standard plugs Andre
Don't bother Andre, I mean, the supply companies don't care how they twist and weld their supply cables together and what about the transformers down the road? No fancy wanky wire in them.
Just get your stock mains plugs (MK or Crabtree?), get the de-oxit or brasso on them to keep the brass nice and clean, plug in and out of the sockets every so often and maybe invest in a sparky to come over and test the integrity of your mains supply. Do all this WELL before investing hundreds on an expensive wet-dream mains lead and I doubt you'll go wrong :lol:
But we're not talking about mains leads. First (on the other thread) there was a confusion between tonearm and interconnect cables, now we're onto mains leads, on a thread about tonearm cables... Jeez, is anyone capable of following a discussion properly!? ;)
Marco.
Mike - H
29-09-2012, 11:38
I blame the:drinking::drinking: Although I will be buying the interconnect for my SUT :oops:
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 12:29
Ah well that Canare starquad tonearm cable he does will do for me.. ;)
To be fair - quite a few of the recent posts on this thread have been about mains cables and plugs (fuses etc,).
To be fair - quite a few of the recent posts on this thread have been about mains cables and plugs (fuses etc,).
People cannot help themselves mate! Mains is a hot topic! :) Much more interesting than tone-arm cables IMO. :lol:
No, I mean that Marco is telling Dave to read the thread properly because it's about tone-arm cables (which it is) and not mains cables; I was just saying that, to be fair to Dave, the last page or so has been about mains cables.
Mains cables may be a hot topic for some - I can't get excited about it myself though.
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 15:12
Cables seem to be a vehicle for braggin' imho..
Made me own! Cost less than £30, Silver / LOFC cable, Eichmann's salvaged off an abandoned project...result!
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/KD-550/IMG_1486.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/KD-550/IMG_1487.jpg
'Balanced' config with shield taken all the way to phono plug.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/KD-550/IMG_1481.jpg
No, I mean that Marco is telling Dave to read the thread properly because it's about tone-arm cables (which it is) and not mains cables; I was just saying that, to be fair to Dave, the last page or so has been about mains cables.
Mains cables may be a hot topic for some - I can't get excited about it myself though.
Me neither.
My bog standard one does well.
No, I mean that Marco is telling Dave to read the thread properly because it's about tone-arm cables (which it is) and not mains cables; I was just saying that, to be fair to Dave, the last page or so has been about mains cables.
Yup, fair point :)
Mains cables may be a hot topic for some - I can't get excited about it myself though.
They're not a particularly "hot topic" for me either. Other than when I'm experimenting with new ones (which isn't very often), I rarely mention them.
The other thing which is relevant in your circumstances is that with Naim amps there's little to be gained by using anything else other than the supplied leads (mains or signal). When I had my old Naim system, the stock cables (and NACA5) always sounded best, for good reason, and so I never concerned myself with finding anything else 'better'.
With other equipment, however, it's a different ball game - particularly when used in revealing systems that highlight the effect of cable changes very clearly, and thus where there are significant sonic gains to be had! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 19:17
Ah well that Canare starquad tonearm cable he does will do for me.. ;)
Ok i order one of these, i'll swap out those Phono's for some Neutrik 'Profi' i already have..
http://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/canare424_22.html
Lol - nice one, dude. How much did the orange colour influence you? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 19:21
Draws me in :eyebrows:
Canare star-quad cable is not bad at all.
Rare Bird
29-09-2012, 19:37
Yeh it'll do for my needs, besides this cable im using's 35 years old, i recon a new one is in order.
With other equipment, however, it's a different ball game - particularly when used in revealing systems that highlight the effect of cable changes very clearly, and thus where there are significant sonic gains to be had! ;)
Thanks for the inference that my system is in sufficiently revealing - I don't know where that came from. As it happens, I don't use NacA5 or Naim interconnects to my power amps. My system satisfies me and has no difficulty in revealing the differences between cables, connectors etc. (very clearly).
Presumably you think I am having a backhanded 'pop' at you with respect to your recent mains cable thread; but I'm not, my 'can't get excited about mains cables' comment was a specific response to Dave's statement that mains cables were the 'hot topic'. Cables, in general, are not a hugely 'hot topic' with myself - other areas of hi-fi excite me personally more (although, ironically, I've probably had more PM's, on various forums, regarding cables than any other subject).
Thanks for the inference that my system is in sufficiently revealing - I don't know where that came from. As it happens, I don't use NacA5 or Naim interconnects to my power amps. My system satisfies me and has no difficulty in revealing the differences between cables, connectors etc. (very clearly).
Presumably you think I am having a backhanded 'pop' at you with respect to your recent mains cable thread; but I'm not, my 'can't get excited about mains cables' comment was a specific response to Dave's statement that mains cables were the 'hot topic'. Cables, in general, are not a hugely 'hot topic' with myself - other areas of hi-fi excite me personally more (although, ironically, I've probably had more PM's, on various forums, regarding cables than any other subject).
I sometimes wish I could just sit and listen to my system without the endless cable swaps and people phoning me every day for advice on which is the best this and which is the best that, it must be so nice to not have to get involved with all that and just enjoy the music, respect due chief.
Jeez, this must be the night for people being touchy! :doh: See the 'Who has What?' thread here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=366761#post366761
No, Mark, I wasn't having a pop at your system not being sufficiently revealing, and certainly not in retaliation at your supposed pop at me in my mains cable thread, which I hadn't even considered existed until now.
Apologies if it came across that way.
Marco.
Mike - H
03-10-2012, 10:43
It's in the post :yay:
I sometimes wish I could just sit and listen to my system without the endless cable swaps and people phoning me every day for advice on which is the best this and which is the best that, it must be so nice to not have to get involved with all that and just enjoy the music, respect due chief.
How you getting on with those Audionotes David?:)
Mr Kipling
03-10-2012, 22:07
how you getting on with those audionotes david?:)
Ungowwa!! Ungowwa!!
How you getting on with those Audionotes David?:)
If you mean the speakers dude they are exceptionally good, "however" too expensive IMO. They are based on Snell as Peter I was told bought all the designs when Snell went bust, and luckily I saw a set of Snells for sale on the forum so bought them instantly, picked them up from Luton on friday, took them to owston on the way back up the M1, just got home a few hours ago, we listened to them at owston and I have to say they performed admirably.
Here is a pic I took a few hours ago...
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ADS/IMAG0408_zps389ded92.jpg
Was there a fest at Owston today, then? :)
Marco.
Was there a fest at Owston today, then? :)
Marco.
Yes dude, today and tomorrow (up to lunch time tomorrow). 20 or so DIY nutters like Nick who build their own amps, dacs, pre-amps etc, etc. I say "nutters" in a nice way as we all got on well.
There were about 5 systems on show including Ali Tait's who I met for the first time last night, we had a few beers and a nice chat.
Mine and Nick's system was the Snells, the 401 and the wand, Nick's valve amp and pre-amp and various bits of wanky wire as some people like to call it! Very hard to get a good sound as the room is bad, at least we all got on and had a nice meeting.
Yup, I know. They're excellent... I've been quite a few times, dude. The only reason I mentioned it was because Ali normally advertises the fests here, and unless I've missed it, I don't remember seeing any notification of such...
Not to worry. Glad you had a good time. Make sure that when all the pics are taken that you post a link to them here from Audio Talk! :cool:
Marco.
I have a 423.5 flexi on the way with furutech din and eichmann rca:-).
A Xyz Airy is also en route.
Nice one, Tristan. You'll not be disappointed :trust:
Let us know what you think when they arrive!
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
07-12-2012, 19:45
I wonder if yannis does a 222 version of his tonearm cable, now that would be something to listen to!
It's arrived. Looks good. Will put everything together over the weekend. Its a bit of a job. Need to fit the new tonearm, change bearing oil, check everything is level, sort "bounce" on the Michell, fit cart and cable. Then hopefully enjoy.
If you mean the speakers dude they are exceptionally good, "however" too expensive IMO. They are based on Snell as Peter I was told bought all the designs when Snell went bust, and luckily I saw a set of Snells for sale on the forum so bought them instantly, picked them up from Luton on friday, took them to owston on the way back up the M1, just got home a few hours ago, we listened to them at owston and I have to say they performed admirably.
Here is a pic I took a few hours ago...
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ADS/IMAG0408_zps389ded92.jpg
Good one David, l really rate the k's quite a bit glad they are doing the business for ya!:)
Lee Henley
11-12-2013, 12:06
Just read through all this thread and I'm going to order one of the interconnects for my Dac, probably the Gaia model, will drop them a line to see which is best for me
One thing my Dac has a ground on the back is it best to get a lead that allows me to connect to this ?
Hi Lee, if your preamp has an earth connection then get a Yannis ConnectLitz with flying earths both ends and earth the DAC to it. Otherwise, use a separate earth wire to earth the DAC directly to mains or house earth. Watch out for any hum, which would indicate that the DAC is already earthed through its mains connection.
Lee Henley
11-12-2013, 14:43
Hi Lee, if your preamp has an earth connection then get a Yannis ConnectLitz with flying earths both ends and earth the DAC to it. Otherwise, use a separate earth wire to earth the DAC directly to mains or house earth. Watch out for any hum, which would indicate that the DAC is already earthed through its mains connection.
Hi Martin
The amplifier does not have any earthing facility, its only the Dac. I think I will get just a straight forward interconnect without the earthing lead
Cheers
Lee
MikeMusic
11-12-2013, 15:11
Hi Martin
The amplifier does not have any earthing facility, its only the Dac. I think I will get just a straight forward interconnect without the earthing lead
Cheers
Lee
If you get one with earthing lead you can us it in other places as well.....
The amplifier does not have any earthing facility, its only the Dac. I think I will get just a straight forward interconnect without the earthing lead
Yup, makes sense. You only really need the earth leads in turntable applications.
Lee Henley
15-12-2013, 18:32
Well I've ordered the Gaia 222 c/w WBT 0110ag plugs, can't wait for it to come
Lee Henley
21-12-2013, 16:37
Just had an email from Yannis who has informed he has posted my cable, should here all being well on monday or tuesday, fingers crossed I get it before christmas :)
Nice one, Lee. Hope you like it :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Any possible insight/idea as to how an upgraded 428 (Furutech/Eichmann or WBT) might fare against a standard 423.5?
Cheers
J.
How about an upgraded 423.5, you might prefer it?
How about an upgraded 423.5, you might prefer it?
Hi Martin,
I wish but budget is tight - up to 200-220 pounds max - after splashing out on tonearm/cartridge, wife will kill me.:(
Ah sorry, in that case the 428 will still give you a lot of transparency for your money.
I meant to add, as I didn't answer your question, that connectors make a big difference so more on connectors and less on cable is the right way to go.
Cheers Martin; that was my general impression as well.
337alant
30-03-2014, 04:54
I meant to add, as I didn't answer your question, that connectors make a big difference so more on connectors and less on cable is the right way to go.
Martin Do you think that the WBT plugs are worth the extra over the Eichman silver bullets,
Just toying with which cable to order clio or Gaia ?
Alan
No, I think WBT versus Eichman is a personal preference. I like WBTs, others Eichmans. Go with whichever and you'll get a great cable.
Yup, I prefer the sonic effect of silver Eichmanns on tonearm cables, and the silver WBTs in all other applications :)
Marco.
337alant
30-03-2014, 12:48
Thanks Martin & Marco I appreciate that ;)
I have 4 new silver eichman bullets so I may just get the cable with the cheap plugs on it and swap them over
sorry to be a pest but do you think the 90 deg Cardas tone arm plug is good enough or should I go for the bestest one? :D.
Alan
I have the straight-in Furutech CF. Can't comment on the others.
Hi Alan,
sorry to be a pest but do you think the 90 deg Cardas tone arm plug is good enough or should I go for the bestest one? :D.
In my experience, the Furutech CF-DIN(R) makes quite a significant difference, so if you can afford one, my advice would be to go for it! :)
Marco.
337alant
31-03-2014, 03:27
Hi Alan,
In my experience, the Furutech CF-DIN(R) makes quite a significant difference, so if you can afford one, my advice would be to go for it! :)
Marco.
Ok Furutech it is then:eyebrows:, what the hell its only money :D, and if I dont I will allways wish I had :doh:
Alan
Hi sorry for revival of old thread, but is Yannis still the best for the money?
Bought recently used SME IV which replaced (excellent) Audio Mods Classic II and am thinking about the new tonearm cable. The options I have (or considered) are budget < £250 (will be sending later SME IV for Ikeda re-wire):
- Audio Origami SOFC
- Yannis 428 with Eichmanns
I've read through almost all pages in this thread, unless I missed something, what is the opinion on stock 428 vs 428 with Eichmanns? I know there was a comparison between stock 423.5 and "pimped" version of it but don't recall comparison of 428.
I will have to use 90 degree DIN, I don't believe I could use straight one on Gyro SE.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Bigman80
17-03-2018, 13:50
I recently bought a Yannis OCC silver tonearm cable and it's significance in my system cannot be understated. The one you've mentioned, it's excellent. They're not cheap but they're very good.
Bigman80
17-03-2018, 13:53
I bought this one
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/SILVERCORD-PLUS-Pure-solid-OCC-Silver-StarQuad-tonearm-cable-1m-angled/222446946465?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20171010182013%26meid%3D0e3c2f da17914c328ab4cbb8662c1246%26pid%3D100890%26rk%3D3 %26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D322359893777%26itm%3D22244694646 5&_trksid=p2056116.c100890.m2460
I don't buy cables, I make my own but this one was worth it. I'm still looking for a good enough cable to replace it (self build cable)
Thank you, interesting - might contact the man himself to find out what's the difference between Silvercord Plus and 428 Plus cable.
MikeMusic
17-03-2018, 14:11
Yannis is a very helpful guy and will answer detailed questions. May even ask for more detail !
May be a day or two to answer an email.
His cables are fantastic VFM.
Not beaten until you get over £1000+
Small update: I decided to order 428Phono Plus with KLEI Pure Harmony RCA plugs at 1.25m length.
There are some other variables that I need to test in isolation, all around the power cables and power block. Have Wireworld Stratus 7 UK version currently on my amp going to cheap-ish Tacima block.
Got another Stratus 7 (UK) going to Matrix 2 with Schuko (EU) connectors and that currently serves my phono preamp and Michell HR (power supply) with standard power cords. Also sourced Electra 7 with Schuko (EU) plug but out of the box (pouch) it was a bit "hollow" with the rest better (soundstage, lower frequencies and control). So I'm "burning it" in on my computer to see if all the good stuff will remain and if it will gain the smoothness, size and the body of Stratus 7. My friend is an authorised dealer of Wireworld and he suggested that I should be patient and give Electra few weeks of some juice flowing through it before making any judgement - I shall follow his advice.
First things first, power cables test and then, once received, 428Phono Plus. It will be a bit strange comparison as I don't have anything else than stock cable supplied with SME IV (my version is used and over 10 years old) but I will report back once I get my head/ears around all that.
Until then, I've got quite a few records to listen to from my latest eBay acquisitions and local records fair :) (Mostly classical music and some old ELP and Yes. My neighbours will be happy, at least it won't be just Frank Zappa and King Crimson next weekend)
RobbieGong
22-02-2020, 09:30
Thought I'd resurrect this Yannis Tome cables thread.
Which one of his are you using ?
The 423.5 was excellent ! So I'm very much looking forward to receiving the 423.5Plus https://www.back-promo.co.uk/html/423_5phono-litz_plus.html
Anyone else gone from the 428 or 423.5 to the Plus version ?
How did you find it in terms of improvement ?
Oh! and while we are at it, has anyone heard from the good man lately ? ;)
Wakefield Turntables
22-02-2020, 20:49
Got the 420 star quad jobbie. This design outshone a Nordost TYR tonearm cable. I've never ever been tempted to get something new. Sounds utterly stunning on my Garrard 401. No, not heard from him.
RobbieGong
23-02-2020, 00:01
The 420 you have is about as good as it gets from what I know.
Enquired after one with Yannis, but way out of my price range, unfortunately. If my previous 423.5 is anything to go by, I expect the 423.5Plus will be fab!
Yannis makes some truly fantastic, competitively-priced hand-made cables, and in my experience has an intrinsic understanding of how cables 'work', in a hi-fi sense, like few others I know, but he does sometimes tend to 'disappear' and stop answering his emails, for no apparent reason, which as Rob's currently experiencing, is rather frustrating!
So come on, Yannis, surface from wherever you are and fulfil Rob's enquiries, as 'hiding', mate (presuming and hoping that you're well), is not good for your reputation!:wave: :ner:
;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
29-02-2020, 16:26
Any one had any dealings or heard from Yannis lately by any chance ? :scratch:
Six months ago - doubt if that is much help though?
mickdale
04-10-2020, 09:38
Yannis made me a din - xlr and a silver din - din interconnect recently.
Delivered within a fortnight. Incredible vfm.
RobbieGong
04-10-2020, 11:50
Yannis made me a din - xlr and a silver din - din interconnect recently.
Delivered within a fortnight. Incredible vfm.
Yes, I managed to hear from him some time back. He's done a number of superb cables for me over the years. Can highly recommend.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.